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[00:07:08] <Patrickdk> ds-labs, where in anything you said, was there a postfix question?
[00:07:17] <Patrickdk> we do not support dns, apache, ubuntu, ....
[00:07:20] <Patrickdk> we do support postfix
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[00:07:58] <DS-labs> [22:53:56] <DS-labs> so first time dealing with postfix, but I really need SMTP for my clients website what would be the quickest way to configure postfix to have multiple domains as aliases
[00:08:06] <DS-labs> and you also support stupidity apparently
[00:08:17] <thumbs> DS-labs: that's not very constructive.
[00:08:58] <DS-labs> by far the most stuck up community I have encountered
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[00:13:23] * Patrickdk still wonders what postfix supporting multible domains has to do with websites
[00:13:30] <Patrickdk> to bad we will never know
[00:13:34] <thumbs> Patrickdk: he's just confused :)
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[01:08:55] <strixUK> is there any particular advantage of cyrus or dovecot for SASL auth?
[01:09:14] <strixUK> (other than ubuntu seems to ship with dovecot by default, so presumably all that stuff is already there)
[01:10:31] <adaptr> strixUK: yes. use dovecot, it's much easier to configure. also, if you use it for IMAP, you already have it set up for auth.
[01:11:14] <strixUK> just looking thrue sasl_readme.  yeah, cyrus looks tedious
[01:11:38] <strixUK> adaptr: thanks.
[01:11:50] <adaptr> np
[01:12:53] <strixUK> i have two domains, only one of which is currently handled by my postfix installation.  if i were to vhost the 2nd domain, can i do so in a way that gives no clue to the effect that the two domains are being served by the same MTA?
[01:13:00] <strixUK> (i have two IPs on this machine)
[01:13:36] <strixUK> IOW: can i get postfix to adopt a different 'personality' (aliases table, hostname etc etc) based on IP and domain?
[01:14:53] <rob0> !multiple
[01:14:53] <knoba> rob0: "multiple" : Multiple instance management support in Postfix 2.6+: http://www.postfix.org/MULTI_INSTANCE_README.html
[01:15:04] <rob0> !postmulti
[01:15:04] <knoba> rob0: "postmulti" : http://www.postfix.org/postmulti.1.html :: Multiple instance management support in Postfix 2.6+
[01:15:04] <strixUK> thanks
[01:15:20] <adaptr> HOWEVER,. note that this is usually not needed. or wanted. or very useful.
[01:15:33] <strixUK> i'll read through it.
[01:15:42] <strixUK> i suspect it may be more trouble than it's worth.
[01:15:53] <adaptr> for the purpose you stated, yes, it is.
[01:16:12] <adaptr> who cares if two domains are handled by the same MTA ? in the wild, thousands of domains are served by the same MTA.
[01:17:03] <adaptr> in the case of google, probably hundreds of thousands
[01:17:08] <strixUK> sure
[01:17:29] <strixUK> especially with big, well-known providers.  but one IP serving just two domains kinda links them together in some way.
[01:17:38] <staticsafe> er
[01:17:44] <staticsafe> how is that an issue?
[01:18:09] <adaptr> it's usually a matter of a customer wanting to look more "savvy" or "professional", or two customers who can't stand each other. in the first case, you explain to them that it has nothing to do with professionalism, and in the second, you get each their own VM and forget about it.
[01:18:26] <rob0> and bill them accordingly!
[01:18:29] <adaptr> still easier than running postmulti
[01:19:43] <adaptr> rob0: the response of a true freelancer
[01:19:49] <adaptr> I w0ouldn't even think of that at first
[01:20:04] <adaptr> I'd just try to get them to stop annoying me
[01:20:23] <strixUK> one domain is a gTLD and has whois privacy, the other is in a ccTLD that doesn't offer whois privacy.  I don't particularly want anybody being able to dig out my home address from that.
[01:20:38] <staticsafe> oh so its that kind of issue
[01:20:51] <strixUK> (i suppose i should move away from that cctld domain, but i've used it for 15 years or so, and that would just be a pita)
[01:20:54] <thumbs> you could have said so before.
[01:21:07] <adaptr> strixUK: um. you have an IP. anybody can find that out.
[01:21:37] <adaptr> anonymity when you provide onlinne services is an illusion - as well as undesirable from a consumer standpoint
[01:21:57] <adaptr> I wouldn't do business with you if I could not find out who you were
[01:21:57] <strixUK> sure, but my name and address is not attached to it, and like i said, i have two IPs to keep DNS data separate.
[01:22:32] <strixUK> adaptr: of course.  there is no such thing as absolute privacy, just like there isn't such a thing as absolute security.  it's just a question of how hard you make it to breach it.
[01:23:09] <strixUK> adaptr: yes, i agree.  totally.  and anyway, i think it's actually illegal not to display your company number and registered address on your website in the UK
[01:23:13] <strixUK> but this is not business :)
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[01:23:23] <adaptr> you're missing the point. you're selling services on the internet. privacy is not a prerogative you should espouse, nor shoud you receive it.
[01:23:31] <strixUK> adaptr: i'm selling nothing.
[01:23:39] <adaptr> then they should expect the same.
[01:23:43] <strixUK> i agree.
[01:24:43] <strixUK> i'd be the same as you: i wouldn't part with cash to anybody i didn't know who and where they were.  they have my data, so i expect theirs.  but like i said, this is not a business.
[01:25:00] <strixUK> (yeah, a VM is OTT for my needs, but i am a geek, and it's convenient to have a publicly accessible linux box.)
[01:26:12] <strixUK> and perhaps being a compsci makes me more paranoid than is healthy
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[01:27:36] <adaptr> being a compsci *student* should enable you to read RFCs with clarity :) they will tell you that it is unnecessary and odd to want an MTA to impoersonate something it is not.
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[01:40:49] <Patrickdk> they teach people to read these days?
[01:41:03] <staticsafe> yes
[01:41:13] <Patrickdk> I hardly passed highschool, never found rfc's hard
[01:41:34] <adaptr> it's because of the big friendly letters
[01:41:35] <staticsafe> they are not hard, but very dry reading
[01:42:02] <Patrickdk> some of them, some are pretty witty
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[01:44:26] <strixUK> staticsafe: yes.
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[01:44:47] <strixUK> i'll read standards documents when i have to.  pci express is not too bad, but 802.3 is dreadful.
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[01:45:14] <Patrickdk> what part of 802.3? :)
[01:45:35] <strixUK> good question.  i try to block that out.
[01:46:47] <strixUK> (in the distant past, autonegotiation, when writing an FPGA-based MAC before commercial MACs became especially commonplace.  not all students are fresh out of high school.)
[01:47:50] <adaptr> the only part I am familiar with in a practical sense is 802.3ad, since it has direct practical applications
[01:48:12] <adaptr> I have no need to know anything about ethernet, I have switches to do that for me
[01:48:17] <Patrickdk> not even 802.3q?
[01:48:52] <adaptr> um...wut?
[01:48:56] <Patrickdk> I really really dislike 802.3ad, but it's a needed evil
[01:49:02] <adaptr> I love LACP
[01:49:15] <adaptr> what are you going to do when 10gb switched ethernet is not enough ?
[01:49:21] <adaptr> make it 40!
[01:49:23] <Patrickdk> use 40gigabit
[01:49:24] <thumbs> it's enough.
[01:49:34] <staticsafe> Infiniband?
[01:49:35] <strixUK> i do know that VLANs are much easier than MPLS
[01:49:36] <Patrickdk> 100gbit is coming out
[01:49:44] <Patrickdk> no, 40gbit ethernet has been out for a few years
[01:50:10] <adaptr> Patrickdk: 40gbit is still prohibitively expensive for TOR. it doesn't make any sense to waste money there.
[01:50:19] <adaptr> it's interesting to do between, though
[01:50:25] <Patrickdk> depends on your income
[01:50:37] <adaptr> ...no. it depends on what it returns.
[01:50:52] <adaptr> if you spend money on technology based on income, you will never make any.
[01:50:59] <adaptr> you spend money on technology based on ROI
[01:51:17] <Corey> Soo off tipic!
[01:51:21] <lunaphyte> what's tor?
[01:51:27] <Patrickdk> I thought it was based on whatever the shiny toy the boss finds
[01:51:34] <adaptr> you can get a 10gbit TOR box for about $15K, sans modules, and just plug in twinax
[01:51:35] <Corey> I can't send or receive mail over TOR, what do?
[01:51:40] <adaptr> lunaphyte: Top-of-Rack
[01:51:44] <lunaphyte> oh
[01:51:52] <adaptr> network nerdtalk now
[01:51:57] <Patrickdk> :)
[01:52:09] <adaptr> a 40gbit switch would probably cost you 50K, and not have the option of using twinax
[01:52:10] <lunaphyte> i didn't realize it had a douchy acronym :)
[01:52:26] <lunaphyte> we just ordered some 10g switches for some of our cabinets.
[01:52:59] <Patrickdk> ya, I just setup a 100% 10gbit cabnet a few weeks ago
[01:53:06] <adaptr> lunaphyte: it's newish, introduced since major vendors started to move away from the age-old cisco 3-tier paradigm to flatter architectures - just TOR and backbone, i.e. 2-tier, or even 1-tier in some cases.
[01:53:26] <lunaphyte> i'm a fan of that, yeah
[01:53:31] <lunaphyte> it's what we do
[01:53:31] <staticsafe> Cisco still teaches the 3 tier paradigm
[01:53:42] <lunaphyte> of course they do, because then they can sell more garbage
[01:53:48] <staticsafe> indeed :)
[01:54:14] <adaptr> lunaphyte: it can be super-efficient. buy pizzaboxes with 16 cores and 256GB, plug in 2x 10gbit twinax and 2x 8gbit FC. pipe both to a Nexus or other hybrid switch, and bob's your daddy
[01:54:37] <lunaphyte> fc is vile, i won't touch that.
[01:54:45] <adaptr> you can fit up to 20 VM hosts totalling 320cores and 5TB memory in a single rack
[01:54:47] <lunaphyte> but i'm ok w/ iscsi or nfs
[01:54:56] <adaptr> lunaphyte: FC is better than either. much, much better.
[01:55:02] <lunaphyte> ack.  no way.
[01:55:14] <lunaphyte> fc makes me barf and have nightmares
[01:55:15] <Patrickdk> fc is technically better, but iscsi is going win, no issue
[01:55:23] <adaptr> if you can show benchmarks, we'll talk again ;)
[01:55:29] <Patrickdk> I'm running a mix of both
[01:55:42] <Patrickdk> no new people using fc though, only existing
[01:55:44] <adaptr> iscsi sucks at any form of prioritization.
[01:55:46] <lunaphyte> i can't image how fc is technically better.
[01:56:13] <adaptr> does it have zoning ? no, it's just TCP.
[01:56:36] <Patrickdk> it's also has issues with packet loss and all the other ethernet issues :)
[01:56:36] <lunaphyte> the difference in performance is nowhere near significant enough to be worth the agony of administration.
[01:56:45] <lunaphyte> thank god it doesn't have zoning, yeah.
[01:57:06] <Patrickdk> ya, performance is very minimal difference, not enough to worry about
[01:57:24] <adaptr> I am a bit sad we didn't get 10gb modules with our new VNX. I'd have liked to test 10gbit iscsi and/or NFS for a bit.
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[01:57:38] <adaptr> those probably cost as much as a fucking data mover, though.
[01:57:43] <Patrickdk> the one I just setup was a 10g iscsi san
[01:57:57] <Patrickdk> but the nice san went on to the 8gb fc network (ssd san array)
[01:58:00] <adaptr> wasn't my choice, alas
[01:58:14] <lunaphyte> that'll be the next big move we make, at some point.  no more stupid overpriced "storage array".
[01:58:28] <adaptr> this VNX has 500GB of SSD cache. I really need to test-drive that sucker
[01:58:43] <Patrickdk> 11tb 100% ssd :)
[01:58:52] <adaptr> jeebus, what application is that for
[01:59:12] * staticsafe drools at the thought of that
[01:59:13] <Patrickdk> BI processing
[01:59:47] <adaptr> I recently tested an R820 with 8x 200GB SSDs in RAID-10, on a PERC H710P controller - basically the new LSI sas6 card.
[02:00:09] <adaptr> I maxed it out in both IO and TP! 150K IOPS and 2.5GB/sec (not concurrently, of course)
[02:00:21] <adaptr> the SSDs weren't at their limits yet
[02:00:49] <adaptr> it's now an OLTP box - with 150000 IOPS.
[02:00:50] <Patrickdk> ya, I only have 4 8gb links up, been able to get 4GB/sec so far
[02:01:22] <adaptr> Patrickdk: you should be able to get pretty close to 500MB per SSD - read, at least
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[02:01:37] <adaptr> that array can entirely saturate 32gbit
[02:01:39] <Patrickdk> no, I'm limited by the 8gb fc ports
[02:01:58] <adaptr> of course you are
[02:02:06] <adaptr> I am making a case for local storage
[02:02:10] <Patrickdk> well, techinically, I haven't put enough client servers on it to load it down good
[02:02:15] <adaptr> as lunaphyte said, it's getting interesting again
[02:02:19] <Patrickdk> ya, local always wins
[02:02:39] <Patrickdk> the small setup I'm attempting to do is all shared das storage
[02:02:46] <adaptr> the new LSI sas6 cards will do absurd throughput
[02:03:40] <adaptr> think how badass your postfix queues would be!
[02:03:48] <Patrickdk> so much more spam!
[02:04:08] <adaptr> "yeah, I upped my active limit to 20 million. it wasn't really getting utilized"
[02:06:33] * Patrickdk just wants those cards, cause they are 16port low profile :)
[02:06:43] <Patrickdk> the speed is just a nice bonus
[02:06:49] <Patrickdk> plus, pcie v3
[02:06:58] * jimpop checks to see if this is #networking
[02:07:04] <jimpop> ;-)
[02:07:09] <Patrickdk> we are talking #sas now
[02:07:22] <jimpop> no iaas?
[02:07:33] <Patrickdk> you paying me?
[02:07:42] <Patrickdk> we can talk :)
[02:07:43] <jimpop> no
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[02:08:37] <Patrickdk> I thought iaas got renamed, the could
[02:08:41] <Patrickdk> cloud
[02:08:48] <Patrickdk> and the internet, and everything else
[02:09:26] <jimpop> fairly sure that there are still marketing people recycling iaas these days
[02:09:31] <Patrickdk> paas?
[02:09:35] <Patrickdk> postfix as a service?
[02:09:46] <staticsafe> porn as a service?
[02:10:06] <jimpop> that's really just the Internet
[02:10:14] <staticsafe> indeed
[02:11:12] <Patrickdk> my daughter is begging for more scratch offs
[02:11:47] <jimpop> you buy your daughter lottery tickets?
[02:11:54] <Patrickdk> per mom does
[02:11:57] <Patrickdk> her
[02:12:14] <jimpop> that's not legal in the US
[02:14:21] <jimpop> or at least i'm pretty sure it's not
[02:14:30] <jimpop> over 18 to play....
[02:19:13] <Patrickdk> thought it was over 18 to buy, and redeem
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[02:39:58] <adaptr> Patrickdk: well, yes. whatever happens inbetween is unprovable.
[02:46:55] <pj> yeah, the part about playing is unenforceable.
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[03:04:00] <tohuw> If my virtual users have maildirs in their home directories, how ought I set virtual_mailbox_base?
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[03:28:55] <strixUK> in master.cf, do options need to be on the same line, or is it okay to leave them on subsequent lines after uncommenting them?
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[03:34:30] <tohuw> strixUK: If it is on a second line, indent it with a space
[03:41:36] <strixUK> tohuw: hrm, thanks.
[03:42:01] <strixUK> tohuw: i'm trying to get relay working for SASL-authenticated connections
[03:42:55] <strixUK> in master.cf, i have submission port enabled, and it's there that i enable sasl, and also relaying ("smtpd_client_restrictions=permit_sasl_authenticated,reject')
[03:42:57] <strixUK> or so i think
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[03:43:14] <strixUK> it authenticates okay, but it says relaying is not permitted
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[03:45:11] <tohuw> strixUK: What are the values of relay_host and relay_domains in your main.cf?
[03:46:05] <Patrickdk> heh? smtpd_client_restrictions don't control relaying
[03:46:17] <strixUK> then i've misunderstood
[03:46:17] <Patrickdk> something tells me you used a debian config :)
[03:46:31] <strixUK> host is empty, and domains is $mydestination
[03:51:11] <strixUK> (yes)
[03:51:12] <grknight> strixUK:  you would have to override all restriction classes in master.cf that you define in main.cf.  Common to do is for submission: "-o smtpd_client_restrictions= -o smtpd_sender_restrictions= -o smtpd_recipient_restrictions=permit_sasl_authenticated,reject" (postfix 2.10.x also should set "-o smtpd_relay_restrictions= " in addition to the others)
[03:52:25] <strixUK> i get it now: tls_security=encrypt forces TLS.  presumably it won't accept any commands until the connection is secured.  sasl_auth_en allows authentication, and client_restrictions set as above will reject any command unless authenticated.
[03:52:51] <Patrickdk> no
[03:53:27] <Patrickdk> it rejects any connection that isn't authed
[03:53:39] <strixUK> grknight: best practice to set recipient_restrictions in master.cf, rather than globally?  (presumably unauthenticated relaying on port 25 still would not be allowed even if globally defined)
[03:53:41] <Patrickdk> you can give it commands
[03:53:53] <Patrickdk> but if the connection doesn't get authed, those commands will be ignored
[03:53:59] <strixUK> right
[03:54:27] <Patrickdk> I think debian does that just to be annoying, cause it's slightly more secure, cause it doesn't allow relay
[03:54:40] <Patrickdk> if you change client to recipient, you get what your aiming for
[03:54:52] <grknight> strixUK: i'd rather just override it for submission
[03:55:08] <Patrickdk> though personally, I think allowing sasl first, is way too liberal
[03:55:21] <strixUK> grknight: sonuds reasonable
[03:56:00] <strixUK> Patrickdk: as opposed to?
[03:56:16] <Patrickdk> opposed to what?
[03:56:37] <strixUK> "allowing sasl first is way too liberal"
[03:56:43] <Patrickdk> it is :)
[03:56:50] <Patrickdk> I like to reject on lots of things first
[03:56:58] <strixUK> oh i see
[03:57:02] <Patrickdk> invalid from, to, bad headers, ...
[03:57:17] <Patrickdk> why accept the email, let my server try to send it for days on end, to bounce it back
[03:57:25] <Patrickdk> when they mistype hotmail
[03:57:39] <strixUK> if there were anybody else using this server, i'd agree with you.  i'd also include authentication headers etc.
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[04:21:30] <strixUK> 'k, works now, thanks for your help
[04:21:45] <strixUK> for some reason, my postfix (2.9.6) doesn't like smtpd_relay_restrictions
[04:22:22] <strixUK> (and it's not included in postconf -d)
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[04:24:47] <tohuw> I have Postfix configured with Dovecot. How can I ensure Postfix is sending more than just the user (that is, the string to the left of the domain in the email address)? If the mail is to foo at bar dot org, I need it to send Dovecot foo at bar dot org, not just foo.
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[04:26:19] <tohuw> (I ask because I have dovecot binding against LDAP, and it can search out %u, but not %d, so I interpret that it is not receiving this information; maybe I am wrong)
[04:28:35] <strixUK> tohuw:     smtpd_sasl_local_domain?
[04:30:01] <tohuw> strixUK: I need it to send the correct domain for each user, and I have virtual domains. smtpd_sasl_local_domain is currently set to $myhostname
[04:30:18] <grknight> !smtpd_sasl_local_domain
[04:30:18] <knoba> grknight: "smtpd_sasl_local_domain" : a configuration parameter in the main.cf: The name of the local SASL authentication realm.
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[04:32:37] <grknight> tohuw: lots of examples here: http://wiki2.dovecot.org/LDA/Postfix
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[04:45:09] <tohuw> grknight: Thanks, that had what I was looking for, with a bonus on being able to sidestep extensions but still give them to Sieve
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[05:08:22] <lunaphyte> eh?
[05:09:03] <tohuw> eh?
[05:09:13] <lunaphyte> seem convoluted
[05:09:15] <lunaphyte> *seems
[05:09:42] <lunaphyte> postfix sends to dovecot whatever string it is given
[05:10:01] <lunaphyte> [assuming you're talking about smtp auth / sasl that is]
[05:11:17] <tohuw> I modified master.cf and now Dovecot gets a value for %d (domain). Before, it didn't.
[05:11:53] <lunaphyte> master.cf?
[05:12:09] <lunaphyte> how would that be related to sasl?
[05:16:38] <tohuw> because I modfied the service line for dovecot
[05:16:59] <lunaphyte> what service line?
[05:23:06] <pajamian> that would be for delivery, SASL has nothing to do with delivery.
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[05:23:29] <lunaphyte> probably, which is why i asked him to show it
[05:23:50] <pj> and, btw, I tend to recommend using lmtp for dovecot delivery nowadays, instead of dovecot-lda.
[05:23:58] <lunaphyte> and it probably also means that he's using lda, instead of lmtp, which is what should be used.
[05:24:04] <pj> lol
[05:24:07] <lunaphyte> heh
[05:24:17] <tohuw> Now kiss!
[05:24:23] <tohuw> Yeah, I am using LDA
[05:24:32] <tohuw> but not for any good reason
[05:24:53] <pj> the reason why dovecot-lda is so much more prevalent is because dovecot 1.x didn't have lmtp, if you're running dovecot 2.x you really should be using lmtp.
[05:24:55] <tohuw> Going to read on LMTP now, because LDA is driving me bananas on the Dovecot side anyway
[05:25:17] <tohuw> pj: Gotcha. thanks
[05:26:07] <tohuw> lunaphyte: This line: dovecot   unix  -       n       n       -       -       pipe flags=DRhu user=vmail:vmail argv=/usr/lib/dovecot/dovecot-lda -f ${sender} -a ${recipient} -d ${user}@${nexthop}
[05:26:07] <lunaphyte> there are numerous "helpful" tutorials which also suggest use of lda even with dovecot 2.
[05:26:12] <lunaphyte> yup.
[05:26:32] <lunaphyte> so we've confirmed.  that's got nothing at all to do with sasl or smtp auth, and should be replaced with lmtp anyway.
[05:26:45] <pj> yeah, just people upgrading dovecot 1.x advice to dovecot 2, without taking into account that dovecot 2 has a better way.
[05:27:16] <tohuw> Yes, sorry. Wasn't thinking about it when I replied to you earlier, lunaphyte. Sorry.
[05:27:31] <lunaphyte> no worries, thanks.
[05:27:33] <pj> anyhow, I just jumped in, didn't really see what the real issue was.
[05:28:02] <tohuw> pj: That's precisely what happened to me, but to be fair, I got the advice from the dovecot wiki D:
[05:28:39] <tohuw> At the bottom it does offer lmtp, but lda is listed first… so I did that, not realizing it's not best practice
[05:29:02] <lunaphyte> the dovecot wiki um...  leaves some thing to be desired.
[05:29:06] <lunaphyte> *things
[05:30:18] <staticsafe> tell me about it..
[05:30:42] <lunaphyte> really, i'm not bitching.  it's fine, but it is worth being aware of.
[05:30:45] <pj> well, dovecot 2.x supports both dovecot-lda and lmtp, so naturally the wiki will have instructions for both.
[05:30:59] <pj> the documentation would not be complete otherwise.
[05:31:54] <staticsafe> true
[05:33:15] <pj> don't get me wrong, there is nothing particularily wrong with using dovecot-lda, it works just fine.  lmtp is simply more efficient irt that it can handle multiple recipients at once plus it doesn't have to fork for each message.
[05:33:31] <tohuw> pj: Agreed. It should definitely make me aware both are supported. But it should make lmtp more prominent and let me know lmtp's advantages.
[05:33:53] <lunaphyte> more efficient, less convoluted, and simply more logical from a mail flow perspective, period.
[05:34:25] <pj> well, that's technically not correct, I think it may have to fork, but it does so in memory without involving loading and running an executable from disk each time.
[05:35:01] <tohuw> So, beyond setting "reject_unverified_recipient" in the smtpd_recipient_restrictions, setting virtual_transport to dovecot and removing the lda line I pasted before from master, what else do I need to do postfix-side to get lmtp to happen?
[05:35:07] <lunaphyte> the big hurdle now with lmtp is pounding it into people's heads that they should be using the relay address class with dovecot, not the virtual address class.
[05:35:28] <pj> lunaphyte: really?  why is that?
[05:35:41] <lunaphyte> it cracks me up when i see someone with postfix configured to deliver to dovecot via lmtp, but has shoehorned in virtual(8) unnecessarily
[05:36:02] <pj> I use it with virtual addresses just fine.
[05:36:15] <pj> errr virtual mailboxes.
[05:36:17] <lunaphyte> it functions, but isn't as logical, and is unnecessary
[05:36:40] <lunaphyte> if you deliver to dovecot via lmtp, then there are no virtual mailboxes
[05:37:00] <pj> there are, they are just all handled completely by dovecot.
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[05:37:16] <lunaphyte> then what's the point of a postfix virtual config?
[05:37:21] <lunaphyte> there's no use
[05:37:22] <pj> well, for me it was along the lines of upgrading an old install from dovecot 1.x to 2.x and in the process switching to lmtp
[05:37:39] <pj> it wasn't worth it to change the rest of the config from virtual to relay.
[05:38:09] <lunaphyte> it simplified it for me, plus out of principle, it was worth it for me.
[05:38:34] <pj> well, there's also inertia, I'm just used to thinking of them as virtual users.
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[05:39:21] <lunaphyte> think about it from the perspective of what virtual does.  so you are probably still using virtual_mailbox_maps, right?
[05:40:04] <pj> yes
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[05:41:59] <lunaphyte> so postfix gets an email, looks up the recipient in virtual_mailbox_maps, then virtual_mailbox_maps returns the path to which the mail should be delivered - which is then completely ignored, and the message is just immediately given to dovecot
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[05:42:26] <pj> right, it did that with dovecot-lda as well
[05:42:49] <lunaphyte> so all you end up doing with virtual_mailbox_maps is just recipient validation.  just pass/fail.
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[05:43:20] <pj> you don't actually have to return the path if you're not using virtual(8), you can just have the lookup return anything really, it could just be "1"
[05:43:31] <lunaphyte> that's my point
[05:43:37] <staticsafe> mailbox_transport = lmtp:unix:private/dovecot-lmtp with virtual_alias_maps is what I have
[05:43:51] <pj> yes, I understand, it negates the difference between virtual and relay classes.
[05:44:08] <pj> but that doesn't mean that you have to switch from using the virtual class to the relay class for the domains.
[05:44:21] <lunaphyte> but in the world of postfix, virtual_mailbox_maps is a map whose rhs is meant to matter
[05:44:30] <pj> only to virtual(8)
[05:44:40] <pj> if you're not using virtual(8) then it doesn't
[05:45:02] <lunaphyte> all i'm saying is that ultimately, relay is more logical
[05:45:16] <pj> mmmmmm, I would say it just depends on how you view it.
[05:45:26] <pj> I would say it doesn't matter.
[05:46:23] <lunaphyte> what happens when someone is confused, and has configured virtual to return some path where they want mail to be delivered, but has also configured postfix to deliver to dovecot?
[05:46:59] <lunaphyte> if they have different values for that, and are still learning, they might be expecting mail to be delivered to wherever virtual_mailbox_maps was configured
[05:47:05] <pj> lunaphyte: as long as dovecot is configured correctly it won't matter.
[05:47:15] <lunaphyte> but what if they don't know that yet?
[05:47:38] <lunaphyte> i know ultimately a smart person will learn and figure it out and it ill be resolved, but that's not the point of that example.
[05:47:40] <pj> but ... I will concede that people may tend to use the virtual class with a 3rd party delivery agent (because this really applies to all 3rd party lda's) and put too much effort into settings for postfix that don't matter.
[05:48:20] <lunaphyte> if the person was instead encouraged to just use relay, and thus had used relay_recipients, they'd see from the documentation that's it's simply address verification, and would be more quickly directed towards cluefulness.
[05:48:40] <tohuw> lunaphyte: If I have postfix delivering to dovecot, how I ought to rework the configuration to use relay, then? Here's the output of postconf: http://pastebin.ca/2389968
[05:48:53] <pj> yeah, but they could also get confused in that way.  "I don't want to relay, I want to deliver to a virtual mailbox."
[05:48:59] <pj> so the confusion could go either way.
[05:49:59] <tohuw> Also, switching to LMTP now results in errors when I attempt telnet tests now: 450 4.1.1: Recipient address rejected: unverified address: mail transport unavailable
[05:50:48] <lunaphyte> i'd like to help, but i've got to get to bed
[05:50:50] <lunaphyte> sorry
[05:51:02] <tohuw> No problem. Thanks for your help today.
[05:51:07] <lunaphyte> sure thing.
[05:51:16] <pj> !tell tohuw doitagain
[05:51:16] <knoba> tohuw: "doitagain" : Please follow the instructions for getting help as per the channel topic for *every* issue you ask for help with, no matter how many times you have done it already. Also see !spellitout
[05:51:17] <lunaphyte> i'll be around tomorrow if you're still working on it.
[05:51:36] <lunaphyte> and of course plenty of others can help just as well if not better too.
[05:51:47] <pj> hehehe, or not so well
[05:51:53] <tohuw> D:
[05:51:57] <pj> but I'm sure we can still get to the bottom of it.
[05:52:20] <tohuw> Oh, think I see what hosed my lmtp setup. Tinkering...
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[05:56:40] <tohuw> Bah, lmtp still not working...
[05:58:03] * pj points to the doitagain factoid above
[06:04:34] <tohuw> Any idea why I get 450 4.1.1: Recipient address rejected: unverified address: mail transport unavailable in telnet testing? postconf -n: http://paste.ubuntu.com/5734729/ doveconf -n: http://paste.ubuntu.com/5734731/
[06:05:10] <tohuw> !debug
[06:05:10] <knoba> tohuw: "debug" : http://www.postfix.org/DEBUG_README.html : a starting point for how to deal with problems and to report information to those who might help. Post information including NON-verbose logs in a pastebin such as http://pastebin.ca/ or http://dpaste.com/
[06:11:24] <tohuw> pj: I found the core complaint, I think: (connect to isaac.tohuw.net[private/dovecot-lmtp]: No such file or directory) Do I need an entry in master.cf or something?
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[06:19:41] <tohuw> Also seeing "postfix/qmgr[14823]: warning: connect to transport private/dovecot: Connection refused" in the logs.
[06:23:19] <tohuw> Disregard that: fixed that awhile ago and missed the timestamp on that.
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[06:28:46] <pagios> !nullclient_software
[06:28:46] <knoba> pagios: "nullclient_software" : a program that serves as a drop in replacement for /usr/sbin/sendmail and provides a simple means to submit messages to an existing msa without the need to install and maintain a full-blown mta/msa. examples include msmtp, esmtp, ssmtp and nullmailer. also see !msa
[06:30:33] <pagios> will these listen on port 25?
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[07:39:55] <pj> pagios: why would you want to listen on port 25 if you're not accepting inbound mail?
[07:40:19] <pagios> pj because php mail() sends to port 25
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[07:54:11] <pj> pagios: port 25 is not for submission of mail, it is only for communication from one MX to another.
[07:54:37] <pagios> so outgoing email from the mta should go for relaying over 25
[07:54:58] <pj> should relay to the destination MX via port 25, yes.
[07:55:17] <pj> !tell pagios submission
[07:55:17] <knoba> pagios: "submission" : Port 587 is submission, for user submission of mail, NOT suitable for mail exchange. See the commented example in master.cf. also see !msa, and rfc 6409. Also read http://www.maawg.org/sites/maawg/files/news/MAAWG_Port25rec0511.pdf
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[13:35:21] <lunaphyte_> php mail() doesn't send to port 25 anyway. that's just plain wrong.
[13:37:03] <pj> I'll take your word for it.  I won't pretend to know what php mail does or doesn't do and it would not surprise me in the slightest if the incompetent php devs think that submission is supposed to happen over port 25.
[13:40:05] <Patrickdk> php mail ONLY uses port25 on windows
[13:40:13] <Patrickdk> it has never supported it on unix
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[13:40:37] <Patrickdk> now if you use the phpmailer class that lots of people use, that supports it, but that is not part of php
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[16:02:08] <M|ckael> !debug
[16:02:08] <knoba> M|ckael: "debug" : http://www.postfix.org/DEBUG_README.html : a starting point for how to deal with problems and to report information to those who might help. Post information including NON-verbose logs in a pastebin such as http://pastebin.ca/ or http://dpaste.com/
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[16:37:42] <brahman> Hi, I am using smtp_generic_maps to force emails being sent by www-data@$localdomain to appear to be sent by webmaster@$localdomain is this the correct thing to do?
[16:38:43] <brahman> php scripts using mail() do not correctly update the envelope which is why I want to do this.
[16:41:53] <jelly> brahman: the "correct" thing to do would probably be to make them php scripts use mail()'s "additional_parameters" to invoke /usr/sbin/sendmail with -fcorrect-envelope-sender
[16:42:15] <jelly> good luck teaching php coders to do the right thing
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[16:44:42] <brahman> jelly: that is a loosing battle! :-) is the smtp_generic_maps a suitable alternative or should I be looking at another technique? (torturing devs is not an option)
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[16:48:16] <patdk-wk> heh?
[16:48:22] <patdk-wk> they are dev's, that is their *job*
[16:48:33] <patdk-wk> to do things correctly, and to keep doing it till it's correct
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[16:49:18] <patdk-wk> oviously someones qa process is not very good
[16:49:20] <jelly> nah, their job is to make things work, just like mine
[16:49:27] <jelly> correctness often doesn't come second
[16:49:34] <jelly> or third
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[16:49:55] <patdk-wk> well, that is considered making things work, atleast to me :)
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[16:50:07] <jelly> you sound like a sysadmin!
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[16:50:21] <patdk-wk> I'm a lot of things
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[16:50:26] <patdk-wk> besides a prick
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[17:17:51] <brahman> jelly: thanks for your responses. My /lastlog is foobared so am not sure how much of the conversation I missed. apologies. once again many thanks
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[18:29:37] <Randomage> Hello.
[18:31:13] <Randomage> I recently updated postfix (on a freebsd machine with virtualmin) and sending mail to outside domains stopped working, now, I know that there were changes introduced with 2.10, but I was incapable of understanding them, can someone help me updating my configuration?
[18:32:26] <Zerberus> !tell Randomage welcome
[18:32:26] <knoba> Randomage: "welcome" : welcome to #postfix! if you're joining for the first time, or are new to irc, the first thing you'll want to do is read the channel topic (/topic). it includes crucial instructions on how to effectively ask for help here, and what data you should include with your questions. the degree of success you'll have is directly related to how effectively you're able to follow those guidelines.
[18:32:32] <lunaphyte_> follow the instructions in the topic and make a pastebin
[18:33:04] <Randomage> well, it was half a question half a check for non idle users :)
[18:33:13] <Randomage> I'll pastebin stuff.
[18:33:39] <rob0> https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups#!topic/mailing.postfix.users/eSIGF7y7OI8
[18:34:16] <rob0> specifically https://groups.google.com/d/msg/mailing.postfix.users/eSIGF7y7OI8/lW367RBLvKIJ
[18:34:50] <patdk-wk> heh? idle users?
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[18:38:09] <Randomage> allright, I used to have smtpd_relay_restrictions = permit_mynetworks permit_sasl_authenticated        defer_unauth_destination
[18:38:21] <Randomage> tried with smtpd_relay_restrictions = permit_mynetworks, permit_sasl_authenticated, reject_unauth_destination
[18:38:37] <Randomage> error went from 4.7.1 to 5.7.1, but it's still not working.
[18:38:44] <Randomage> will pastebin conf now.
[18:39:42] <Randomage> http://paste2.org/p6P0NYYH
[18:40:18] <patdk-wk> where did the logs go?
[18:40:22] <patdk-wk> devnull?
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[18:43:29] <Dominian> where are the smtpd_recipient_restrictions
[18:44:55] <Randomage> http://paste2.org/CccfCg1Y
[18:46:05] <grknight> Dominian: with 2.10, smtpd_recipient_restrictions is optional with smtpd_relay_restrictions set properly
[18:46:17] <rob0> There's no evidence that the client attempted AUTH. And also, you should be doing submission on 587, not 25.
[18:46:49] <rob0> Optional, yes, if you like spam. :)
[18:47:01] <Randomage> http://paste2.org/H7t9GPdx
[18:47:25] <Randomage> ok if I use commas as they've shown that entry disappears
[18:47:31] <Dominian> grknight: I understand, but setting smtpd_relay_restrictions only seems.. pointless
[18:47:33] <Randomage> I guess the daemon can't read the conf file
[18:47:52] <Dominian> i've always used smtpd_recipient_restrictions
[18:48:03] <rob0> I guess that the client did not AUTH. Good luck.
[18:48:10] <patdk-wk> Dominian, you have always used < 2.10.0?
[18:48:33] <grknight> Dominian: just saying, for the purpose of this assist request, it's not needed
[18:48:56] <patdk-wk> hmm, no sasl config, no cert config
[18:48:58] <Dominian> patdk-wk: nope
[18:49:01] <patdk-wk> how is a client suppost to auth?
[18:49:13] <rob0> BTW comma and space and tab are all equivalent in postconf(5) terms, they are considered whitespace.
[18:49:56] <Randomage> well, I'm still stumped.
[18:49:58] <grknight> Randomage: i agree with patdk-wk.  your config is half done and you seem to be ignoring the fine warnings which will help you in the long run
[18:50:12] <Dominian> rob0: I do see where smtpd_relay_restrictions was added to me main.cf after my last upgrade
[18:51:41] <rob0> If the client does not attempt AUTH, it won't be authenticated.
[18:52:17] <rob0> oops, I missed that, indeed
[18:52:31] <rob0> !smtpd_sasl_auth_enable
[18:52:31] <knoba> rob0: "smtpd_sasl_auth_enable" : a configuration parameter in the main.cf: Enable SASL authentication in the Postfix SMTP server. By default, the Postfix SMTP server does not use authentication.
[18:52:43] <rob0> !sasl
[18:52:43] <knoba> rob0: "sasl" : SASL is 'Simple Authentication and Security Layer', necessary for SMTP AUTH, and provided to Postfix by addin software. Cyrus SASL and/or Dovecot IMAP/POP3 can provide SASL. See http://www.postfix.org/SASL_README.html for details.
[18:53:24] <rob0> I was thrown off by the idea that this used to work before an update.
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[19:13:11] <lunaphyte_> this is all very very wrong
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[19:13:51] <lunaphyte_> things like virtualmin are not substitution for learning.
[19:13:55] <lunaphyte_> that's abuse of the tool
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[19:15:18] <lunaphyte_> things like virtualmin are for giving admins choices for day to day administrative tasks once they've learned how to operate the software in question - not a tool to avoid learning how the software works.
[19:15:40] <lunaphyte_> also - why would you delete a log file to get a clean slate?  i don't understand that.
[19:17:34] <patdk-wk> lunaphyte, works well for helpdesk tickets
[19:17:47] <lunaphyte_> deleting help desk tickets?
[19:17:56] <patdk-wk> yep
[19:18:02] <lunaphyte_> hah
[19:18:14] <patdk-wk> or, like lots of people do, auto-close after 3days
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[19:45:39] <whitefang> what ever happened to that guy trying to setup postfix via webmin and failing hard?
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[20:21:46] <rtpada> which one ?
[20:22:12] <rtpada> lots of people think that's viable, and fail hard.
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[20:52:44] <ChadLepto> whitefang, sql back end?
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[22:11:50] <Deesl> hi. I am using a backend mysql for virtual users in postfix. How do I make postfix use SHA512 hashes for password?
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[22:12:28] <twobithacker> depends on your sasl library, I think
[22:12:58] <patdk-wk> what does virtual users have to do with passwords?
[22:13:40] <Deesl> patdk-wk: it does not.. It was just the background
[22:13:54] <Deesl> so any idea what to change in the sasl library?
[22:14:02] <patdk-wk> nope, that isn't part of postfix
[22:14:18] <patdk-wk> postfix only supports cyrus and dovecot sasl libs though
[22:14:22] <patdk-wk> so it has to be one of those
[22:14:32] <patdk-wk> also note
[22:14:45] <patdk-wk> sha512 is hashed, so the only supported methods will be plain text passwords
[22:15:23] <Deesl> ne right back
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[22:21:09] <lunaphyte_> this is why ldap should be used for this, not sql
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[22:36:43] <patdk-wk> why?
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[22:48:40] <Deesl> okay back.
[22:48:54] <Deesl> now how do I make sasl authenticate to SHA512 hashes?
[22:49:02] <Deesl> I am using Postfix + Dovecot
[22:49:54] <patdk-wk> ask dovecot
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[22:50:28] <patdk-wk> dovecot, how do I use sha512 password hashes?
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[22:51:42] <Deesl> okay.
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[22:56:10] <pj> lunaphyte: what is?  I'm not sure what sql vs ldap had to do with his issue, if anything?
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[23:33:30] <Deesl> I am completely confused now. ... my maildir is specified as /var/vmail/%d/%u , so /var/mail/example.com/user while it is showing up as /var/mail/example.com/john at example dot com/ .. Any idea what I could be doing wrong?
[23:36:09] <rob0> Well for two things: a virtual user needs a $HOME; the maildir should be a level below that: /var/vmail/%d/%u/Mail/ . Second thing, there's no pastebin, so we can only try to guess, and there are way too many things you might have done wrong to be able to do that.
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[23:38:13] <Deesl> rob0: okay... let me pastebin as much as I can.. sorry about that...
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[23:39:14] <Deesl> here is my postfix configuration: http://pastebin.com/saQWCAHC
[23:40:07] <Deesl> here is dovecot.conf http://pastebin.com/Z1y7qh2A
[23:46:23] <rob0> Put them together and include your relevant query file[s]. Also do a:
[23:46:26] <rob0> !postmapq
[23:46:26] <knoba> rob0: "postmapq" : You can check your lookups with the postmap command. Example: if you defined transport_maps = mysql:/etc/postfix/transport.cf you may check this mapping by running postmap -q example.com mysql:/etc/postfix/transport.cf and see if it works.
[23:46:51] <rob0> ... of a virtual_mailbox_maps query, show what it returns.
[23:47:21] <rob0> dovecot.conf is only relevant if you're using that for delivery
[23:47:29] <rob0> (LDA or LMTP)
[23:47:49] <Deesl> rob0: I am... the transport does say dovecot and I believe I was using LDA.. which I was told is a bad idea and I should use LMTP
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   June 5, 2013  
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