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   February 18, 2012  
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[00:37:46] <Chi-Town> postfix setup seems to be working well. just a little afraid to put it to use, less i get blacklisted
[00:38:15] <Chi-Town> personal email server horror stories seems to involve getting blacklisted a lot
[00:38:59] <seekwill> People not knowing what they are doing
[00:39:10] <adaptr> it tends to happen if you dump it on the public internet without sufficient preparation
[00:39:24] <adaptr> and your statements alone make me say please don't.
[00:39:46] <adaptr> get a grip on the major concepts behind SMTP, and the main postfix modes of operation, first
[00:39:48] <seekwill> adaptr: What was that game you told me about!?!?!?
[00:39:54] <adaptr> what game ?!?!
[00:39:57] <seekwill> Or just outsource your email :)
[00:39:57] <adaptr> when ?>!?
[00:40:08] <seekwill> adaptr: Something you told me was the awesomeest game in the whole world...
[00:40:12] <seekwill> adaptr: Computer game?
[00:40:16] <adaptr> how long ago ?
[00:40:22] <adaptr> yes, okay, I have about 200
[00:40:23] <seekwill> a few months?
[00:40:25] <seekwill> oh
[00:40:34] <adaptr> a bit more specificity is needed
[00:40:34] <seekwill> I think it had to do with space travel or something
[00:40:39] <adaptr> oh, Eve
[00:40:43] <adaptr> eve-online.com
[00:40:53] <adaptr> about $15 a monf
[00:40:54] <seekwill> oh
[00:41:03] <adaptr> first two weeks free
[00:41:06] <seekwill> wow
[00:41:08] <seekwill> I got a PC!
[00:41:26] <adaptr> a whu
[00:41:43] <seekwill> No, a PC!
[00:41:55] <Chi-Town> adaptr: what is it i don't have a grip of, besides exactly what will get me blacklisted?
[00:42:10] <seekwill> Chi-Town: Spamming
[00:42:28] <adaptr> yes, exactly that. if concepts are vague to you, you don't have a firm grip on them. seems self-evident to me.
[00:42:55] <Chi-Town> i don't have a grip of what spamming is?
[00:44:10] <adaptr> you say you have a nearly-ready postyfix config, but you're afraid of getting blacklisted, but you don't know WHY you would be. that is way too vague to inspire confidence in your ability to run a public MTA
[00:44:22] <Chi-Town> "if concepts are vague to you" - which concepts would that be? besides not knowing exactly what gets someone blacklisted.
[00:44:25] <adaptr> seekwill: postyfix is rearing its head again
[00:44:28] <seekwill> adaptr: Do you still play it?
[00:44:33] <adaptr> Chi-Town: yes, THAT concept.
[00:44:35] <seekwill> adaptr: Who?
[00:44:53] <adaptr> seekwill: stopped again, after a few weeks. consumes too much time :)
[00:45:03] <seekwill> lol
[00:46:01] <adaptr> I tend to prefer the shorter, single-player type games, so I can play them when it suits me, and they eventually end...
[00:46:08] <Chi-Town> i've been told unwarrented mails is cause for blacklisting. seem to have that covered. but i still want to know if there are other ways to get blacklisted
[00:46:13] <adaptr> I loved portal 2 - one of the best games EVER made.
[00:46:17] <seekwill> adaptr: Yeah... but this game looks way too much fun
[00:46:19] <Chi-Town> makes sense to me to find out PRIOR to dumping it onlinie
[00:46:32] <adaptr> I have recently leeched serious sam 3, and some more newbies. have to find some time to try them soon
[00:46:35] <seekwill> Chi-Town: backscatter
[00:46:47] <Chi-Town> seekwill: i know of that one. but anything else?
[00:46:47] <adaptr> !tell Chi-Town mantras
[00:46:47] <knoba> Chi-Town: "mantras" : 1. do not accept mail that you do not intend to deliver. 2. do not drop mail. 3. do not use wildcards or catchalls.
[00:46:59] <seekwill> Chi-Town: Not really
[00:47:01] <Chi-Town> got those i believe
[00:49:35] <seekwill> Then you should be good!
[00:49:54] <seekwill> The worry isn't really about being blacklisted, but seeing if anyone would even accept your mail
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[00:55:06] <Chi-Town> seekwill: that's what i mean by blacklisted. same effect to me. unusable email
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[00:55:35] <Chi-Town> reasons my mail would not be accepted?
[00:55:55] <seekwill> adaptr: I hate you now
[00:56:01] <adaptr> if you don't KNOW if the big players will accept your email, why did you intend to run a public MTA ?
[00:56:06] <adaptr> seekwill: good!
[00:56:28] <seekwill> Chi-Town: Umm... that's a very large and broad subject
[00:56:54] <seekwill> Chi-Town: Google up "postmaster gmail" (any every other domain you can think of) to learn
[00:57:41] <seekwill> adaptr: What did you do in the game?
[00:58:03] <adaptr> hitting pirates, mostly. most fun while making some money
[00:58:26] <adaptr> plus, bigger ships +bigger guns = bigger e-penis
[00:58:47] <seekwill> adaptr: So this manufacturing profession... I set up my own warehouse, buy raw materials, sell them, hire NPC's for labor, etc.?
[00:59:29] <adaptr> essentially, yes - but you'll be many months further before it comes to that. it just helps you to start training the skills you need for it
[00:59:46] <jimpop> spamming is sending stuff that people dont' want and didn't ask for
[01:00:09] <adaptr> ultimately, you could stake out part of a planet, set up your own corporation, and start building a base for mining, manufacturing, and trade
[01:00:27] <adaptr> build juggernauts! (insanely huge, mile-long battleships)
[01:00:49] <adaptr> I think one juggernaut takes about 500 billion credits to construct ... ;)
[01:00:53] <rob0> mine was only 1.6km long
[01:00:53] <seekwill> adaptr: Yeah, just wondering what the capabilities were, possible, etc
[01:01:07] <adaptr> seekwill: pretty much limitless. have you looked at th emap yet ?
[01:01:46] <adaptr> it currently has about 5000 known star systems, divided into a few hundred zones of control.. only 4 are controlled by the 4 races, but hundreds are controlled by player-owned corps and mini-empires.
[01:02:08] <Chi-Town> adaptr: its like you're asking me why ask a question if i don't know the answer to it already
[01:02:21] <adaptr> as soon as you have control over one or more star systems, you can build space stations as well :)
[01:02:44] <seekwill> What happens if you die?
[01:02:45] <adaptr> rob0: you do know that's several meters short, right
[01:03:07] * rob0 is an underachiever :(
[01:03:59] <adaptr> seekwill: not a lot. it's in several stages: if your ship gets blown up, you're in your pod, which is indestructible in "safe space" (security > 0.5) but may be attacked in unsafe space. it can fly and has warp capability, so just jump and dock somewhere and get a new ship.
[01:04:36] <seekwill> adaptr: What about in unsafe space then?
[01:04:55] <adaptr> if your *pod* gets destroyed, a new clone is activated; you buy higher clone grades periodically (not expensive) to hold/maintain more skill points. if your clone grade doesn't match your skill level, you lose hard-earned skill points!
[01:04:56] <Chi-Town> "Specify @domain as a wild-card for domains that have no valid recipient list, and become a source of backscatter mail:" -- I completely understood this to be the opposite of how postfix is behaving
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[01:05:14] <seekwill> adaptr: ah! ok
[01:05:16] <Chi-Town> found it during testing
[01:05:23] <adaptr> later in the game, you can even buy extra jump clones, i.e. instant transportation to wherever they are stored - some can even be stored in clone vats on ships
[01:05:38] <seekwill> Chi-Town: Where did you read that?
[01:06:00] <seekwill> adaptr: I HATE YOU!
[01:06:05] <seekwill> I'm never leaving my house
[01:06:08] <Chi-Town> seekwill: http://www.postfix.org/postconf.5.html#relay_recipient_maps
[01:06:20] <adaptr> seekwill: you never truly "die" in the sense that you have to start over, but if your clone is not up to spec and you get podkilled, you may lose month's worth of skill points
[01:06:28] <adaptr> seekwill: it is pretty, isn't it :P
[01:06:41] <adaptr> most awesomely visual game you can play right now
[01:07:02] <jimpop> skyrim?
[01:07:28] <adaptr> also, there's a huge community all over the world, and many auxiliary programs have been made, because eve has an API ;) so go wild!
[01:08:03] <jimpop> fcking mmorpgs
[01:08:11] <adaptr> new modules, or addons are produced about once or twice a year, upping what yo umight call the "version" - it's currently at version 15 or so - yes, this game has been online every day for more than 8 years
[01:08:12] <jimpop> get real, play fps
[01:08:23] <seekwill> MW3!
[01:08:23] <adaptr> jimpop: EVE is hardly an MMORPEURGH
[01:08:35] <adaptr> it is very much a first-person (or third-person) shooter
[01:08:39] <seekwill> I need to practice so I can beat thumbs !
[01:08:40] <adaptr> oh and is it a shooter
[01:09:08] <jimpop> from their homepage: EVE Online is a massive multiplayer online game.....
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[01:09:23] <seekwill> Chi-Town: Ok, so don't use @domain then!
[01:09:25] <adaptr> the best bits for me are pitched battles in beautifully rendered star systems surroundered by 40 or 50 pirate ships
[01:09:41] <seekwill> jimpop: Would you consider Battle.net a MMOG?
[01:09:52] <adaptr> well, sequentially fewer pirate ships, obviously
[01:09:59] <rob0> ahoy
[01:10:04] <adaptr> because I FRAG THEM FUCKERS
[01:10:09] <seekwill> lol
[01:10:12] <rob0> arrr, avast
[01:10:15] <seekwill> So you're the police?
[01:10:24] <seekwill> The pirate of pirates!
[01:10:26] <jimpop> i don't know... EVE looks pretty cool and less of an MMORPG than I thought it was
[01:10:28] <adaptr> depending on your mien, FoF missiles are a great asset
[01:10:58] <adaptr> seekwill: nah, but the first hundred or so missions you get will all be aimed at killing pirates, since they're free-for-all
[01:11:03] <adaptr> make that 500 or so
[01:11:10] <adaptr> there are thousands and thousands of missions
[01:11:22] <seekwill> Chi-Town: Don't worry so much about backscattering. When you're done with your setup, postconf it here, we'll take a look at it and let you know if there's anything obviously wrong. If you get blacklisted, you'll easily know, and how to fix it
[01:11:26] <adaptr> there are racial arcs, mythic arcs, and epic arcs
[01:11:35] <adaptr> each consisting of dozens of individual mission SERIES
[01:11:43] <adaptr> of up to 10 missions each
[01:11:52] <seekwill> oh
[01:12:01] <seekwill> So this is the "campaign" mode?
[01:12:01] <adaptr> and we're not even talking about player interaciton yet
[01:12:07] <adaptr> there is no "mode"
[01:12:13] <seekwill> Sorry
[01:12:14] <adaptr> you do whatever you want
[01:12:35] <adaptr> but stuff makes you more money, or moves you in a direction that gets you better gear, more credits, bigger ships..
[01:12:49] <Chi-Town> seekwill: exactly, i removed it.
[01:12:55] <seekwill> I just want to open up a manufacturing business
[01:13:02] <Chi-Town> wondering if i read it wrong, or its an erorr in teh doc?
[01:13:15] <Chi-Town> actually it could be taken both ways. weird wording
[01:13:24] <seekwill> Chi-Town: Do you understand what the option is for?
[01:13:57] <adaptr> the previous addon version upgrade was called Incursion, and it lasted: from then on, periodically, pirate incursions will try to take over entire star systems, and you can go on massive group engagements to beat them back. there'll be half a dozen of these going on in various stages at any one time, and they last for months
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[01:14:39] <rob0> what error in the what doc?
[01:14:50] <rob0> what's up doc
[01:14:56] <Chi-Town> seekwill: yes. at first read, @domain seems like it'll stop backscatter. turns out it turns it on (at least that's what happened for me)
[01:15:19] <seekwill> Chi-Town: No
[01:15:34] <seekwill> Chi-Town: Why are you using relay_recipient_maps in the first place?
[01:15:36] <Chi-Town> with @domain in my map file, the test email bounced.
[01:15:40] <adaptr> seekwill: what you specialize in is entirely up to you, and there are plenty of ways to get both human and machine support to help you get there. however, you will eventually hit on every aspect of the game. obviously. so prepare to learn mining, deep-space exploration, ship construction, diplomacy, courier running, and killing - lots and lots and lots of killing
[01:15:46] <Chi-Town> removed the @domain and the email was rejected
[01:15:56] <jimpop> \o/
[01:16:05] <seekwill> adaptr: lol stop selling this game to me!
[01:16:09] <seekwill> :(
[01:16:22] <Chi-Town> rob0: http://www.postfix.org/postconf.5.html#relay_recipient_maps
[01:16:22] <adaptr> seekwill: if you decide to go beyond a training (free) account, I may join up for abit to see if we can have fun
[01:16:25] <Chi-Town> the part about @domain
[01:16:32] <jimpop> had me at EVE Gate, lost me at EVElopedia
[01:16:37] <rob0> "Specify @domain as a wild-card for domains that have no valid recipient list, and BECOME A SOURCE OF BACKSCATTER mail:"
[01:16:45] <Chi-Town> right
[01:16:46] <adaptr> seekwill: I wasn't aware that I was. it's just almost impossible to overstate the sheer scope. it is fucking MASSIVE.
[01:16:51] <Chi-Town> i see how it could be taken both ways
[01:16:55] <seekwill> adaptr: I will. But I just got my PC on Thursday, and got SC2, MW3 and LoL to play
[01:17:09] <rob0> I think it says you become a source of backscatter
[01:17:14] <Chi-Town> seeing as how i don't know why someone would want to turn on backscatter, might be why i was more prone to believe it was talking about a way to stop it
[01:17:15] <seekwill> adaptr: See, it sells itself!
[01:17:26] <rob0> oh haha
[01:17:33] <adaptr> seekwill: iirc, WoW runs on dozens of local server systems all over the world, holding 5~10K players each. EVE runs on ONE datacenter in the UK, optimized for FIFTY THOUSAND simultaneous players IN THE SAME ENVIRONMENT
[01:17:43] <rob0> no, no one should want to turn on backscatter
[01:17:45] <seekwill> adaptr: yeah
[01:17:49] <adaptr> yes, that is 50.000 simultaneous humans
[01:17:50] * seekwill turns on backscatter
[01:18:00] * wdp sends his backscatter to seekwill
[01:18:03] * rob0 turns on the light
[01:18:10] * jimpop sets backscatter_enabled = 0
[01:18:25] <seekwill> adaptr: I wonder how they do it
[01:18:26] <adaptr> seekwill: but I see you have a few games set to keep yo ubusy next month
[01:18:56] <adaptr> seekwill: they have some seriously skilled SQl, noSQL, and API architects/wizards on the payroll.
[01:19:10] <seekwill> I bet
[01:19:39] <adaptr> and they're smart: the game goes down for half an hour every few days, to enable them to fix things or roll out new code.
[01:19:59] <adaptr> and apart from Singularity ( the production server)m, there are TWO test servers, that you can play on
[01:20:09] <adaptr> those always have the latest stuff
[01:20:28] <seekwill> Hmm... I wonder how that downtime works
[01:20:49] <adaptr> you don't want to know where they come from - hint: they ran out of banks recently
[01:21:08] <adaptr> seekwill: everybody is warned in advance, and then kicked out ;)
[01:21:14] <seekwill> haha
[01:21:17] <seekwill> How do you run out of a bank?
[01:21:22] <adaptr> but it can hapen as infrequently as once a week, for 30 to 60 minutes
[01:21:45] <adaptr> ah, I forget, you're a useless non-globalipolitan Merkian
[01:21:47] <adaptr> it's Iceland
[01:21:58] <seekwill> lol
[01:22:08] <adaptr> and they did run out of solvent banks
[01:22:12] <adaptr> very fast
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[01:23:30] <adaptr> but I wouldn't mind playing it with someone else for abit - I tried joining a Dutch corp but they were so far ahead of me in skills and experience there was nothing in that for me
[01:24:05] <adaptr> there are in-game corp chats and these people speak about running 5 simultaneous acocunts on 3 PCs with 6 screens... sadly obsessed people, really
[01:24:17] <adaptr> again, it EATS time.
[01:24:22] <adaptr> like nobody's business
[01:24:31] <seekwill> lol!
[01:24:33] <seekwill> damn
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[01:24:57] <seekwill> When you stop paying, your guy just sits there?
[01:25:06] <seekwill> Guessing you don't have to start from scratch
[01:25:09] <adaptr> actually, I remember one guy claiming he ran 12 accounts.. that's $180 a month.. a bit steep
[01:25:37] <adaptr> oh yes, nothing much happens - you get some free skill points over time, but not nearly as much as when you would have "studied"
[01:25:46] <adaptr> I hadn't played for THREE years when I started again last year
[01:25:57] <seekwill> I think that's when you told me about it
[01:26:02] <adaptr> and it was stil lpretty much the same game, but totally gorgeous on 1920x1080
[01:26:08] <seekwill> ooooh
[01:26:23] * seekwill is only on 1650x1050 :(
[01:26:55] <adaptr> I believe CCP employs about 150~200 people to keep it running, and to create new stuff. they create new stuff continuously.
[01:26:56] <rob0> seekwill, is missing out on 30x1050 along the edge :(
[01:27:02] <adaptr> it's a serious business
[01:27:58] <seekwill> wow
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[01:28:08] <seekwill> Pay 200 people just to play the game
[01:28:57] <adaptr> before I stopped being consumed ^H^H^H playing it, they announced that they had updated the UI to be completely re-arrangeable - fully free HUD
[01:29:01] <adaptr> no, not play - code.
[01:29:11] <adaptr> they have over a hundred full-time coders on that shit
[01:29:37] <seekwill> oh
[01:29:45] <adaptr> well, maybe two dozen coders, and dozens of visual artists, sound people, interface experts, whatever
[01:29:59] <adaptr> think any big game, and extrapolate that over 10 years
[01:30:45] <adaptr> they have on-site blogs and forums, most of what they do is public
[01:31:20] <adaptr> but yeah, try it out for the free trial, there's a reason that's their business model ;)
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[01:31:26] <seekwill> haha
[01:31:29] <seekwill> To hook you!
[01:31:35] <adaptr> seriously addictive
[01:31:43] <seekwill> Dangerous
[01:31:57] <seekwill> Convince thumbs to play!
[01:32:22] <adaptr> you can probably play MW3 with him
[01:32:26] <adaptr> he loves those
[01:33:10] <seekwill> Yeah, he'll kick my ass :(
[01:33:39] <adaptr> but yeah, personally I have been playing skyrim the past weeks, elder scrolls always floats my boat - has done since daggerfall, bugs and all
[01:33:56] <seekwill> I don't know that game. I don't think I want to
[01:34:09] <adaptr> bethesda is where the shit is at these days - fallout is just as awesome, and sheer limitless in scope as well
[01:34:49] <adaptr> well, if you run into steam, pick up portal 2, you'll appreciate it. shouldn't cost that much either
[01:35:07] <adaptr> as far as concept and humour goes, best damn game ever made.
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[01:35:18] <seekwill> lol I've heard
[01:35:19] <adaptr> play portal 1 first, it's tiny incomparison
[01:35:23] <adaptr> and a good intro
[01:35:24] <seekwill> Yeah, on Steam to get MW3
[01:35:34] <adaptr> I think it's like $20 or so ?
[01:35:40] <seekwill> 1 or 2?
[01:35:49] <adaptr> 2
[01:35:54] <seekwill> Oh that's not too bad
[01:36:21] <seekwill> A lot of coworkers were talking about it when it first came out
[01:37:57] <adaptr> ah, portal 1 is $9, both are $35
[01:38:07] <adaptr> so about $25 I guess
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[01:38:30] <seekwill> Oh chad was here!
[01:38:44] <adaptr> but I know you will laugh out loud at th ehumour in portal. I know I did. it's very, very good
[01:39:12] <seekwill> lol ok!
[01:39:29] <adaptr> if unsure, shell out $9 for portal 1 ;)
[01:39:47] <seekwill> I trust your opinion!
[01:39:52] <adaptr> it's a friggin fortune
[01:40:02] <seekwill> Not like I need more games in my life right now...
[01:40:24] <adaptr> it is one of the best games I have ever played. granted, that includes C64 games 25 years old, but some of those were very good too
[01:40:53] <seekwill> How much RAM do you have for your game rig?
[01:41:31] <adaptr> not a lot, it's a core 2 duo 3GHz with 4GB
[01:41:46] <adaptr> video does matter though - the Radeon HD 5770 holds up well today
[01:41:49] <seekwill> But that works just fine?
[01:41:57] <adaptr> I am thinking about building a more modern windows box
[01:42:03] <seekwill> I have an nVidia GTX 550
[01:42:12] <adaptr> I run portal 2 and skyrim (and MW2) at 1920x1080 just fine, yes
[01:42:13] <seekwill> I think... ?
[01:42:17] <adaptr> also EVE, of course :)
[01:42:17] <Chi-Town> when sending mail to smtp server, its embedding my home ip address and rDNS. any way not to do that?
[01:42:30] <adaptr> and fallout new vegas
[01:42:34] <seekwill> Chi-Town: Pastebin the EXACT header
[01:42:35] <adaptr> all of those are pretty demanding
[01:42:45] <seekwill> How much ram on your GPU?
[01:42:49] <adaptr> 1GB
[01:42:53] <seekwill> Me too
[01:42:54] <adaptr> more than enough
[01:42:58] <seekwill> Cool
[01:43:04] <adaptr> a GTX550 is about a year newer than what I have
[01:43:33] <adaptr> but I chose it specifically because it was only 13W more than my old GF9600GT - 95W vs 108W max.
[01:43:40] <adaptr> a GTX550 is 150W easy, maybe 180W
[01:43:45] <adaptr> and that, sir, is in-sa-nee
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[01:43:57] <seekwill> oh wow
[01:44:16] <adaptr> the CPU won't be more than 90W or so - which is saying something
[01:44:30] <adaptr> but I fully intend to score a sandy bridge i5 in the near future
[01:44:30] <seekwill> 95w
[01:44:33] <seekwill> http://pastie.org/3405095
[01:44:42] <Chi-Town> seekwill: http://pastie.org/3405096
[01:44:47] <adaptr> with whatever ram will fit on it. probably 16GB, maybe 24
[01:44:56] <seekwill> But why?
[01:46:10] <seekwill> Chi-Town: Yeah, it's that comcast header you don't want, right? You can set up Postfix to remove Received headers. There's some problems with that, but in other cases, that home IP can be bad.
[01:46:19] <Chi-Town> right
[01:46:23] <seekwill> adaptr: Is it only for games?
[01:46:25] <adaptr> because it doesn't cost shit. DDR3-1333 is now at about $5/GB, or $80 for 16GB
[01:46:37] <adaptr> anything over 1333 is useless
[01:46:39] <seekwill> I guess?
[01:46:57] <adaptr> just go with JEDEC spec. valueram - it never fails me
[01:46:59] <seekwill> I don't think there was any price difference between 1333 and 1600
[01:47:20] <adaptr> that's not the reason. you WANT in-spec memory. all the rest is stupid ricing. for lusers :)
[01:47:26] <seekwill> lol
[01:47:32] <seekwill> But it is in-spec
[01:47:34] <adaptr> I spent some time in ##hardware, with somebody who knows. and he's right
[01:47:43] <adaptr> no, there does not exist a DDR3-1600 standard
[01:47:48] <seekwill> oh
[01:47:51] <adaptr> 1333 is it
[01:48:14] <seekwill> What that pastebin doesn't show are the rebates (that I need to fill out... about $50)
[01:48:59] <adaptr> the fact that the SELL DDR3-2300 or some such shite merely tells you some people wil lbuy anything to "get more speed". never mind that cuirrent generaiton CPUs have a hard time utilizing even a fraciton of the 50GB/sec throughput the CPU caches can supply
[01:49:12] <seekwill> heh
[01:49:31] <adaptr> and I have run systems with both, and have nothing but grief with out-of-spec consumer crap.
[01:49:51] <adaptr> last year I built an 8-core xeon with registered ECC, and this is now my slackmeister
[01:49:59] <seekwill> slackmeister?
[01:50:01] <adaptr> everything in spec, on advice, and it flies.
[01:50:30] <seekwill> meh, I wouldn't build a server. That's what HP is for
[01:50:31] <adaptr> yes, this box. 8GB registered DDR3, 4x 2.53GHz HT, 60GB SSD
[01:50:52] <adaptr> supermicro board with IPMI and stuff
[01:50:57] <seekwill> heh
[01:51:12] <adaptr> only thing I might upgrade is the shitty GF 9400GS I had lying around - it sucks
[01:51:19] <seekwill> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813131781 <-- see, I thought 1600 was "standard" :(
[01:51:28] <adaptr> but it works, and I pretty much IRC and watch terminals on it.
[01:52:13] <adaptr> I *know* I don't need to repeat "the fact that they SELL DDR3-gazillionwhatever merely tells you some people will buy anything"
[01:52:24] <seekwill> You do, I'm slow
[01:52:39] <adaptr> there is no such standrad. JEDEC has been infighting about DDR4 for years now, and a resolution is not in sight yet
[01:52:49] <Chi-Town> seekwill: local_header_rewrite_clients is used in order to do that?
[01:52:57] <adaptr> as with the previous 3, it wil lprobably debut at 1066 or 1333
[01:53:01] <seekwill> Chi-Town: I don't know that one, sorry. I usually just leave it
[01:53:12] <seekwill> Chi-Town: But I don't have the same use case as you
[01:53:44] <adaptr> seekwill: but yeah, the 2300 looks nice. for single-core needs (i.e., GAMES) I am looking slightly faster, say 2500(K)
[01:54:07] <adaptr> it's about $30 more I think, but instantly starts at 3GHz
[01:54:18] <seekwill> adaptr: I have a MBP for work :) This thing is purely for games. The 2300 is $170, the 2500k is $230.
[01:54:21] <adaptr> and is unlocked (K)
[01:54:27] <adaptr> so you can run it at 4GHz if you fancy
[01:54:35] <seekwill> And get a water coolor!!!!
[01:54:37] <seekwill> cooler !
[01:54:57] <seekwill> My friend ripped me for not getting the 2500K as well.
[01:54:59] <adaptr> no need, people report that with the right bins, they can run stock @3.8 and up
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[01:55:19] <seekwill> Dude, I want the water cooler for the rice factor duh
[01:55:22] <adaptr> of course, that part is pure crapshoot
[01:55:33] <adaptr> unless you know somebody who can get yo uinto an intel fab
[01:55:45] <adaptr> in whcih case, I'd steal a hundred
[01:55:57] <seekwill> Pirate
[01:56:16] <seekwill> I was even thinking about getting an i3
[01:56:31] <adaptr> that'd be nice for the occasional game, sure
[01:56:38] <adaptr> but I also do..other stuff.. with it
[01:56:43] <adaptr> like.. work ? and stuff
[01:56:52] <adaptr> i3 only goes up to dual core
[01:57:03] <adaptr> but it's fine for occasional games or a kick-ass media center
[01:57:07] <seekwill> Are games multithreaded yet?
[01:57:17] <adaptr> they come in 60W versions, too - excellent for a low-power rig
[01:57:28] <adaptr> many aren't, with respect to video
[01:57:56] <adaptr> these days, game logic can easily take up a second core. sound for a third, and you're using 3 cores already
[01:58:04] <seekwill> OS!
[01:58:17] <seekwill> I need a sound card. The onboard one seems to suck. :(
[01:58:39] <seekwill> I need a soundcard so I can beat thumbs !
[01:58:54] <adaptr> who cares ? shirley it has optical out, which you pump into a DD receiver.
[01:59:03] <seekwill> ooh
[01:59:07] <adaptr> the actual soundcard output quality doesn't really mattter
[01:59:08] <seekwill> Good point
[01:59:24] <seekwill> Yeah, it does have optical
[01:59:24] <adaptr> it's just bits mate
[01:59:40] <seekwill> But I wasn't planning on hooking it up to my home theater
[02:00:00] <adaptr> you should, modern games are all fully dolby surround
[02:00:03] <adaptr> awesomr
[02:00:09] <seekwill> I would use headphones
[02:00:16] <adaptr> then get 5 of them!
[02:00:20] <seekwill> haha
[02:00:43] <adaptr> you didn't buy a new HDD ?
[02:01:04] <Chi-Town> seekwill: i kinda don't want it there, just for privacy reasons. but why do you say it could be problematic for it to be there?
[02:01:05] <seekwill> No, i had a WDC 1TB green that I wasn't using
[02:01:23] <adaptr> seekwill: ugh, that's horrible for running windows 7. really, get a decent 60GB SSD
[02:01:31] <adaptr> utterly, utterly horrible
[02:01:32] <seekwill> Chi-Town: Because some receivers check the wrong headers, and see that the mail comes from a home IP
[02:01:40] <seekwill> adaptr: I'm not using it for work
[02:01:50] <seekwill> adaptr: This computer is only for games. :)
[02:01:58] <adaptr> ....disk speed is MUCH more important for multi-gigabyte games
[02:02:12] <seekwill> For load time, right?
[02:02:18] <adaptr> for everything@!
[02:02:23] <seekwill> hmm
[02:02:23] <adaptr> trust me on this one
[02:02:33] <seekwill> I haven't noticed any problems with MW3 so far
[02:02:38] <adaptr> either put as much memory in it as it will hold, or get a GOOD SSD
[02:02:46] <seekwill> Vertex2|3
[02:02:48] <adaptr> it depends on the game
[02:02:57] <seekwill> I have a 60GB Vertex2 sitting in front of me!
[02:03:01] <adaptr> I have a 2E, it's in this box (again)
[02:03:02] <seekwill> I don't know what to do with it!
[02:03:11] <adaptr> that would work fine
[02:03:26] <seekwill> I was thinking about trying that Intel speedthing
[02:03:31] <seekwill> Using the SSD as a cache to the 1TB
[02:03:33] <adaptr> mm?
[02:03:45] <adaptr> ah, that. yes, by akll means
[02:04:04] <seekwill> I wasnt shouting... it was all capitalized where I copied from :)
[02:04:06] <adaptr> on-board ? I guess I will try that sometime too
[02:04:14] <seekwill> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813131781
[02:04:16] <seekwill> That's my board
[02:04:20] <adaptr> the Z68 is an excellent sandy bridge chipset
[02:05:22] <seekwill> The only thing I don't like about the board is that it's ATX, but not full sized. It's not long enough to fit some of the mounting posts
[02:05:23] <rob0> seekwill, talking about Barracuda deep header inspection? I wouldn't advise people to go out of their way to "fix" that problem, because it's the Barracudist who has the problem.
[02:05:55] <seekwill> rob0: Something like that! I don't remember who it was, but I thought it was a big ISP (hotmail?)
[02:05:57] <rob0> they're blocking plenty other legitimate mail with that
[02:06:03] <seekwill> Yeah
[02:06:32] <seekwill> I've seen some accurate proof from people here :(
[02:06:43] <rob0> What I found with Hotmail was that they'd discard mail if there was only one Received: header. Nuts.
[02:07:03] <seekwill> Is it?
[02:07:06] <adaptr> however, I've been looking at the asus P8B-WS as well - as with this box, the Xeon 1230 is about $50 cheaper than the i5 2500K, and it supports 32GB ;)
[02:07:18] <rob0> You could insert a forged Received: header and bypass that filter.
[02:07:40] <seekwill> rob0: People said greylisting works too!
[02:07:51] <seekwill> But that's what Hotmail was probably trying to do
[02:07:57] <seekwill> adaptr: Why do you need so much RAM?
[02:08:07] <adaptr> in Windows ? are you serious ?
[02:08:10] <seekwill> BECAUSE IT IS CHEAP?
[02:08:12] <seekwill> oh
[02:08:23] <seekwill> This is my first time in Windows in maybe...8 years?
[02:08:43] <seekwill> Windows 7 is very pretty!
[02:08:46] <adaptr> what if I want to.. dunno, open 50 browser tabs, download from 3 sources at once, juggle 100Gb of video back and forth, and play a game while video skyping with 12 people?
[02:09:06] <lunaphyte> you don't know 12 people
[02:09:06] <adaptr> all while transcoding porn
[02:09:12] <lunaphyte> :)
[02:09:13] <seekwill> lol
[02:09:17] <adaptr> good point. I will first need to finnd 12 people, then
[02:09:26] <seekwill> You need that much ram to find people!
[02:09:31] <adaptr> absolutely
[02:09:35] <seekwill> ok ok
[02:09:40] <seekwill> I only care about thumbs
[02:09:41] <seekwill> <3
[02:09:49] <adaptr> old fart
[02:09:59] <seekwill> He's old?
[02:10:08] <adaptr> no, you're acting like one
[02:10:12] <seekwill> oh
[02:10:14] <adaptr> all lubbydubby
[02:10:50] <adaptr> aaanyhoe, if I have teh energies, I could check out some new hardware ...prolly next week, I gets paid next week :)
[02:10:56] <adaptr> I hope
[02:11:15] <seekwill> yay
[02:11:41] <adaptr> if I go for a board, cpu, 16GB, and SSD I could be done under $500
[02:11:50] <adaptr> the rest is fine
[02:12:36] <adaptr> and I can always upgrade the video later
[02:13:05] <seekwill> You can upgrade the CPU later too
[02:13:13] <seekwill> oh
[02:13:17] <seekwill> That's what you meant
[02:13:20] <adaptr> useless. I have built enough PCs to know that that doesn't work
[02:13:57] <adaptr> you stuff the mobno full with whateever you can afford,k or however much it takes, when you buy it. chances are under 1% that you ever upgrade anything - and if you did, what use are the old parts ?
[02:14:03] <seekwill> I'm not a fan of building hardware anymore, except that I want to control what goes in this one
[02:14:09] <adaptr> an old *PC* is useful on its own - components are not
[02:14:15] <adaptr> I;ve built dozens
[02:14:20] <seekwill> I have in the past!
[02:14:44] <adaptr> I now try to match the hardware as close as possible to my desires
[02:15:05] <adaptr> and I will definitely build it with my own hands. I've never seen ANY custom built job that;'s half as good
[02:15:17] <lunaphyte> hardware… desires...
[02:15:33] <lunaphyte> wasn't that a quote from the lawnmower man?
[02:15:37] <adaptr> yes ? feeling the need to make juvenile dick jokes ?
[02:15:45] <adaptr> go ahead, we'l lwait
[02:15:51] <seekwill> lol
[02:16:00] <lunaphyte> of course! why squander an opportunity like that!?
[02:16:02] <adaptr> in fact, seekwill'll wait - I'll go make a pot and watch Lost
[02:17:15] * seekwill waits
[02:17:26] <seekwill> Make a pot of what?
[02:17:43] <lunaphyte> juvenile dick jokes
[02:17:53] <seekwill> ah
[02:18:43] <rob0> pot of dirt, to grow a weed
[02:21:18] <jimpop> lettuce
[02:21:48] <lunaphyte> don't be silly. lettuce grows in plastic containers
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[02:23:48] <Chi-Town> i don't like how this is leaking intranet ip addresses either
[02:24:03] <lunaphyte> try replacing the seal.
[02:24:04] <seekwill> Why?
[02:24:17] <lunaphyte> seekwill: because that's where the leaking happens.
[02:24:20] <seekwill> lunaphyte++
[02:24:35] * rob0 throws a fish to the seal
[02:24:37] <adaptr> he's afraid he'll run out
[02:25:15] <adaptr> a pot of coffee, you citizens of Moronia
[02:26:46] <seekwill> adaptr: What time is it?
[02:26:59] <rob0> did they have coffee on Lost?
[02:27:13] <rob0> No. But they had lots of weeds.
[02:27:17] <adaptr> occasionally
[02:28:04] <Chi-Town> just seems like it shouldn't.
[02:28:22] <Chi-Town> so isp smtp servers include the source ip? and they're not blocked because they're whitelisted?
[02:28:34] <rob0> hmm?
[02:28:51] <adaptr> Chi-Town: the receiving MTA appends a Received: line to the message. this is well documented.
[02:29:00] <rob0> Every MTA is supposed to do that ^^
[02:29:04] <adaptr> anything else I'm not sure what you think you mean
[02:29:38] <Chi-Town> so a residential user's ip would basically always be there?
[02:29:52] <Chi-Town> and those emails are not rejected because the isp is whitelisted?
[02:30:00] <pj> yes and no
[02:30:01] <rob0> be where? In a received header? Of course.
[02:30:35] <Chi-Town> pj: why do those large isp smtp servers not have problems being rejected?
[02:30:43] <rob0> I don't whitelist (well, not much.)
[02:31:05] * jimpop whitelists his phone
[02:31:10] <rob0> what do you mean?
[02:31:16] <jimpop> root call blocer
[02:31:16] <pj> Chi-Town: because you're not supposed to deep-dive the full stack of recieved headers when checking a DNSBL
[02:31:19] <jimpop> *blocker
[02:31:24] <pj> errr DNSRBL
[02:31:36] <adaptr> BLRNSD
[02:31:42] <Chi-Town> pj: ok, but i'm seeing how some have problems with mta's doing that: http://forums.cpanel.net/f43/remove-dynamic-ip-received-header-148965.html
[02:31:55] <pj> right, some MTAs (wrongly) do that.
[02:32:14] <pj> and they have problems blocking emails that they shouldn't
[02:32:14] <adaptr> Chi-Town: whatever you think the problem is, that isn't it. FIRST get it to work, THEN worry about fine detail
[02:32:19] <pj> that's their problem, not yours.
[02:32:41] <rob0> We have a special term for those who scan all the Received: headers looking for dynamic IP addresses. We call them Morons.
[02:32:51] <pj> lol
[02:32:53] <Chi-Town> hmm. ok. i was thinking this problem was not an issue for large ISP smtp servers. but you're saying it is?
[02:32:53] <adaptr> or bored lusers
[02:32:56] <adaptr> very, very bored
[02:33:05] <adaptr> Chi-Town: what "problem"
[02:33:11] <adaptr> you've yet to show any
[02:33:30] <pj> anyone can implement stupid "spam blocking" techniques that break their email, that isn't your problem when they do.
[02:33:33] <rob0> no it is not a problem for ISPs. It is a problem for the people who want to send mail to sites hosted by Morons.
[02:33:42] <adaptr> from Moronia
[02:33:47] <lunaphyte> think for a minute about it.
[02:34:01] <lunaphyte> the whole concept is fundamentally contradictory
[02:34:02] <adaptr> wait, what ? thinking ?
[02:34:06] <adaptr> what are YOU smoking
[02:34:07] <rob0> It's also a problem for the people whose mail is hosted by Morons, because they are often missing mail.
[02:34:23] <Chi-Town> pj: so when said 'morons' do so, it effects ISP smtp servers also?
[02:34:34] <Chi-Town> affects*
[02:34:36] <rob0> of course
[02:34:40] <Chi-Town> cool.
[02:34:58] <adaptr> there's at least 3 terms in that sentence that YOU don't fully understand. I'd advise you to keep that to at most one per sentence
[02:35:11] <pj> Chi-Town: if I were to implement a spam filter that blocked all emails with the letter "X" anywhere in the body of the email would you alter your MTA to strip all "X"'s out of the body of emails you send in order to not get blocked by my server?
[02:35:27] <rob0> pj, good analogy.
[02:35:30] <adaptr> pj: no wai! what impact would my XXX pron spam have if I did THAT
[02:35:38] <pj> lol
[02:35:53] <adaptr> I need that 0.00001 cent conversion, alright
[02:36:34] <Chi-Town> pj: just because its wrong doesn't mean a significant portion of mtas don't do it. predujice against residential ip addresses seems wrong to me, but its done
[02:36:46] <adaptr> Chi-Town: not at all.
[02:36:49] <pj> Chi-Town: it's only done by a few morons
[02:37:03] <lunaphyte> predujice against residential ip addresses is fine. but that's not what's going on
[02:37:04] <adaptr> you may be surprised by the attitude here, if you think that
[02:37:24] <adaptr> dynamic residential addresses should rightfully be completely blacklisted.
[02:37:36] <Chi-Town> i didin't say dynamic
[02:37:51] <adaptr> I did, and considering that's 99% of all residential IPs, yes.
[02:37:53] <pj> dynamic or not, they should be blacklisted, but not based on the REcieved headers.
[02:38:08] <rob0> oh I use and recommend the use of Zen which includes PBL.
[02:38:25] <pj> right, in fact zen is the only DNSRBL that I use.
[02:38:32] <rob0> but NOT scanning the headers, that is stupid.
[02:38:36] <lunaphyte> looking to see if an email originated at a residential address is severely brain dead. of COURSE it did. a human sitting in front a computer likely composed it.
[02:38:54] <rob0> It's not stupid to use SBL in a header scan
[02:39:09] <pj> right, what you should be checking is if the port 25 connection to you comes from a residential address.
[02:39:14] <jimpop> spamassassin does that by default when idiots don't know how to specify trusted_networks
[02:39:19] <rob0> the content filtering people (SpamAssassin) know this
[02:39:21] <Chi-Town> pj: thanks for letting me know the symptom happens to isp smtp servers also. i can live with that. just trying to avoid problems i'm able to avoid
[02:44:26] <adaptr> WHAT SYMPTOM
[02:45:02] <pj> Chi-Town: are you experiencing an actual problem related to this discussion?
[02:45:04] <adaptr> is he still stupiding against RFC 5321?
[02:45:40] <adaptr> Chi-Town: you configure postfix to abide by RFC 5321. this is not hard, it takes at most 10 lines of config.
[02:45:52] <adaptr> anything else, get 5 years' experience first, then get back to us
[02:49:17] * pj doesn't have five years experience ... but I'm a fast learner ;-)
[02:52:02] <adaptr> I'm not asuming daily exposure to problems
[02:52:11] <adaptr> if you have, it will be much less
[02:52:16] <pj> yep
[02:52:42] <pj> well, my fast-track way of learning was to just hang out in here and pay attention to all the problems and solutions people have.
[02:53:33] <adaptr> you won't really learn about a specific scenario or featureset until you encounter it when YOU need it, though
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[02:53:51] <pj> yes, true
[02:53:59] <adaptr> you need to mess about with it, make mistakes, have queues crash, spam a million people.. oops, did I say that out loud ?
[02:54:05] <pj> hence the reason why I know nothing about ldap.
[02:54:23] <adaptr> oh that's not the reason you know nothing about LDAP
[02:54:27] <pj> but for those things that I do use I tend to know quite well at this point.
[02:54:37] <adaptr> the reason nobody understands LDAP is because it's fucking CONVOLUTED
[02:54:41] <pj> lol
[02:54:51] <pj> well, that's the reason why I stay away from LDAP
[02:54:58] <adaptr> or that, okay, yes
[02:55:03] <pj> I find a decent SQL db to be far preferable, anyways.
[02:55:04] <adaptr> some people presumably understand it
[02:55:23] <adaptr> LDAP is also a database, just not a sane one
[02:56:16] <Chi-Town> pj: no problem yet. if it is going to be a problem wanted to fix it
[02:56:49] <pj> Chi-Town: you'll have enough trouble fixing problems you *do* have, don't worry about the ones you *don't* have.
[02:57:18] * adaptr rummages around for a problem HE has, to give to Chi-Town
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[02:58:01] <pj> if you find that you absolutely must send email to a server run by a moron, and he won't listen when you scream and yell at him that he's doing it wrong, then there are ways to work around the problem so it only affects email going to his domain.
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[02:58:21] <adaptr> ideally, by not sending email to his domain
[02:58:44] <pj> well, yes, but not so ideally, if you really *must* send email to his domain, there are ways.
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[03:19:09] <PhantomPhreak53> !debug
[03:19:09] <knoba> PhantomPhreak53: "debug" : http://www.postfix.org/DEBUG_README.html : a good starting point for how to deal with problems and to report information to those who might help. Post your information in a pastebin such as http://pastebin.ca/ or http://dpaste.com/
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[03:27:33] <PhantomPhreak53> I am getting an "/usr/bin/maildrop: Unable to change to home directory." errror and can't seem to get to the bottom of it. Here is my log file with smtpd -vv http://www.bytely.com/mail.log and my postconf -n http://pastebin.com/ra0B3jXs
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[03:28:24] <adaptr> PhantomPhreak53: why are you using maildrop ?
[03:28:36] <adaptr> also, DO NOT post verbose logs unless asked
[03:28:42] <adaptr> we will not look at them
[03:28:47] <PhantomPhreak53> adaptr: I guess I don't know better
[03:28:58] <PhantomPhreak53> ok
[03:28:58] <adaptr> !maildrop
[03:28:58] <knoba> adaptr: "maildrop" : 'a delivery agent similar to 'procmail' which also works for virtual accounts. It's part of the courier mail server. See: http://www.courier-mta.org/maildrop.html'
[03:29:17] <rob0> do you have a non-verbose log snippet which illustrates the problem?
[03:29:39] <PhantomPhreak53> rob0: I can get you one
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[03:41:16] <PhantomPhreak53> rob0: check http://www.bytely.com/mail.log again for a non-verbose
[03:42:40] <adaptr> yuo need to get rid of maildrop
[03:42:49] <adaptr> nobody told you to use it, and you don't need it
[03:43:18] <PhantomPhreak53> adaptr: so just eliminate it
[03:43:20] <PhantomPhreak53> ?
[03:43:33] <adaptr> well, no. investigate how it is used, then use something else
[03:44:00] <rob0> okay, that part is obvious.
[03:44:36] <rob0> You cannot run a command as root on received mail. Alias root to a mortal user.
[03:44:56] <rob0> !default_privs
[03:44:58] <knoba> rob0: "default_privs" : postconf(5) setting for the default rights used by local(8) delivery agent for delivery to external file or command. These rights are used when delivery is requested from a root-owned aliases(5) file, or when delivering to root. DO NOT SPECIFY A PRIVILEGED USER OR THE POSTFIX OWNER. See also !aliases_owner
[03:45:58] <rob0> Likewise your non-root recipients cannot create the log file.
[03:46:51] <rob0> Not being a maildrop user, I can't advise about that beyond the usual checking of filesystem permissions.
[03:47:24] <adaptr> he should get rid of maildrop
[03:47:31] <adaptr> he doesn't know why he is using it. nuff said.,
[03:47:41] <rob0> (But if your log is world writable, it can also be destroyed by a hostile user.) (Like adaptr.)
[03:47:55] <adaptr> lies!
[03:48:08] <rob0> true, don't use something if you don't know why
[03:48:46] <rob0> local(8) has lots of means of delivery without invoking external commands.
[03:52:08] <adaptr> how about babies
[03:53:49] <rob0> yummy
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[04:02:35] <adaptr> virtual domains in mydestination, soft bounce on local, urgh
[04:02:40] <adaptr> using amavis without a clue
[04:02:48] <adaptr> and setting box a mailbox and a command
[04:03:49] <rob0> oh, I only looked at the log ... speaking of which
[04:04:05] <rob0> !tell PhantomPhreak53 relevant_logs
[04:04:05] <knoba> PhantomPhreak53: "relevant_logs" : Relevant logs are mail.* syslog Postfix logs (NOT verbose, see !verbose) which show the entire handling of a single mail which illustrates the issue with which you want help. Random selections from your mail log might not do. IMAP/POP3 daemons and external delivery agents typically log to the same facility (mail); those are usually not relevant here.
[04:05:14] <rob0> although in this case just the command failure lines (one as root, one not) were all that was needed, not the entire handling
[04:05:46] <rob0> and definitely not all the amavis and imap junk
[04:14:03] <PhantomPhreak53> I was searching around and this is basically what I did http://www.fatofthelan.com/technical/how-to-install-postfix-dovecot-amavis-clamav-and-spamassassin-etch/
[04:21:36] <adaptr> yes...
[04:21:41] <adaptr> !tell PhantomPhreak53 tutorial
[04:21:41] <knoba> PhantomPhreak53: "tutorial" : A very common problem is that some people prefer to follow a step-by-step tutorial that shows them how to setup their server w/out reading the documentation or understanding what they are doing. If something goes wrong, they have no clue whatsoever about where to find hints, and they sometimes decide to start from scratch using a different tutorial. This is not The Proper Way.
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[04:32:59] <PhantomPhreak53> Thanks adaptr
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[04:42:44] <PhantomPhreak53> an you just answer this questions. With this error /usr/bin/maildrop: Unable to change to home directory. is that a postfix or a dovcot issue
[04:44:40] <adaptr> !mailbox_command
[04:44:40] <knoba> adaptr: "mailbox_command" : a configuration parameter in the main.cf: Optional external command that the local(8) delivery agent should use for mailbox delivery. The command is run as the recipient. Exception: command delivery for root executes with $default_user privileges.
[04:46:13] <Chi-Town> lmao spamming him with the ! messages
[04:46:25] <PhantomPhreak53> heeh its ok
[04:46:26] * Chi-Town is not saying do otherwise
[04:47:07] <PhantomPhreak53> I am reading everything he is hitting me up with but still can't get to the bottom of this
[04:47:12] <PhantomPhreak53> I know it's something stupid too
[04:54:25] <Chi-Town> !imap
[04:54:26] <knoba> Chi-Town: "imap" : IMAP is an application layer Internet protocol that allows a client (MUA) to access mailboxes on a remote server (see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IMAP). Postfix does not provide IMAP (or POP3) service; see !courier or !dovecot for common IMAP/POP3 choices.
[04:54:45] <Chi-Town> !dovecot
[04:54:45] <knoba> Chi-Town: "dovecot" : http://www.dovecot.org/ : IMAP/POP3 server software with emphasis on security; recent versions can also provide SASL AUTH for Postfix 2.3+.
[04:57:17] <Chi-Town> i'm trying to find out if mail can be sent through imap
[04:58:26] <adaptr> the protocol supports it, but no servers that I am aware of
[04:58:46] <adaptr> !tell Chi-Town submission
[04:58:47] <knoba> Chi-Town: "submission" : Port 587 is submission, for user submission of mail, NOT suitable for mail exchange. See the commented example in master.cf. also see !msa, and rfc 6409. Also read http://www.maawg.org/sites/maawg/files/news/MAAWG_Port25rec0511.pdf
[05:00:20] <Chi-Town> hmm. so roundcube much use either smtp or submission?
[05:01:07] <adaptr> what "either or" ?
[05:01:16] <adaptr> please read the link before spouting
[05:01:49] <Chi-Town> i'll take that as a yes
[05:04:30] <adaptr> if yuo had read the FUCKING MANUAL, yo would know that roundcube supports sendmail and SMTP
[05:04:38] <adaptr> "submission" is not a protocol.
[05:04:45] <adaptr> it's a concept
[05:05:55] <Chi-Town> that type of hatred might make you die early
[05:06:16] <adaptr> say what ?
[05:06:32] <adaptr> you're lying
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[05:11:14] <jimpop> denial/
[05:11:16] <jimpop> ?
[05:12:52] <adaptr> I thought I'd make some personal observation not based on any visible facts, like he did
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[05:21:26] <PhantomPhreak53> wow
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[06:01:31] <rob0> phan, you must have missed some hours ago when I answered your question about "Unable to change to home directory."
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[06:02:19] <rob0> 02:44 through :48 UTC.
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[13:14:28] <event_horizone> hello all
[13:14:41] <event_horizone> i have issue with postfix
[13:15:06] <event_horizone> status=bounced (unknown user: virtual configuration
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[14:36:22] <wdp> http://mipassoc.org/batv/
[14:36:25] <wdp> anyone using that?
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[15:00:37] <Rovanion> I'm still not able to hunt down what causes this sql_select option missing error: http://pastebin.com/CAfBMEy9 . All I find is either to remove some shared objects in usr. And the manual says like the error that sql_select must be set, but not what the config file is named.
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[16:48:32] <wdp> say, if I use mysql/sqlite it's possible to specify a lookup key using %u or %d
[16:48:38] <wdp> is that possible with tcp tables as well?
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[18:30:09] <user1_> hi all
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[18:30:41] <drcode3> I need help with postfix and relay
[18:30:51] <adaptr> okay
[18:31:14] <drcode3> I did change in master.cf the relay to smtp_test
[18:31:17] <drcode3> and the end
[18:31:28] <drcode3> but still it dosnt relay
[18:31:39] <drcode3> it say relay=none in mail.log
[18:32:20] <drcode3> in main.cf . I put relayhost=[my releay]
[18:32:24] <drcode3> what I am missing
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[18:32:35] <adaptr> proper sentence construction, for one
[18:32:50] <adaptr> I have no idea what you are talking about - why did you think it was a good idea to mess with master.cf ?
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[18:33:07] <drcode3> even if I change it back
[18:33:13] <drcode3> it still dosn't relay
[18:33:19] <adaptr> drcode3: please. stop talking.
[18:33:20] <drcode3> if it say relay=none
[18:33:26] <adaptr> read the /topic and do what it says
[18:33:59] <drcode3> it mean that the mail didn't relay?
[18:33:59] <drcode3> do I need to put somthing it alias or other config for using smtp relay?
[18:34:06] <adaptr> are you deaf ?
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[18:38:57] <drcode3> ok
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[19:32:36] <Nik05> hello
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[19:37:54] <Nik05> !welcome
[19:37:54] <knoba> Nik05: "welcome" : welcome to #postfix! if you're joining for the first time, or are new to irc, the first thing you'll want to do is read the channel topic (/topic). it includes crucial instructions on how to effectively ask for help here, and what data you should include with your questions. the degree of success you'll have is directly related to how effectively you're able to follow those guidelines.
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[21:35:16] <n0bane> I'm trying to set up a postfix filter to trigger a PHP script when receiving mail
[21:35:49] <n0bane> I got that to work through adding a content_filter as described here: http://www.postfix.org/FILTER_README.html#simple_filter
[21:36:14] <n0bane> but when I do that, it prevents the original mail handler from running (which is maildir)
[21:36:29] <n0bane> I want maildir to still run AND execute the PHP script.... how do I do this??
[21:39:17] <adaptr> you want to send the mail to a maildir and execute an external program ?
[21:40:13] <adaptr> a postfix filter should - obviously - returnj the message back to postfix if you intend to retain it
[21:40:24] <adaptr> otherwise, it's a sink, not a "filter"
[21:40:34] <n0bane> I see
[21:40:40] <n0bane> how about do I do that with PHP?
[21:40:57] <adaptr> that's rather outside the scope of postfix
[21:41:13] <n0bane> it seems rediculous its so hard to set this up
[21:41:24] <n0bane> I just want it to trigger ANY script, could be php, python, perl
[21:41:33] <n0bane> so that it makes a RPC call on a URL
[21:41:38] <adaptr> your choices are: 1. program a proper filter that retruns the message back to the postfix system, 2. deliver the message twice, once to the filter and once to a maildir, and 3. deliver the message and then process it from the mailbox
[21:41:41] <n0bane> that notifies a user they received an email
[21:41:53] <adaptr> ...biff
[21:42:00] <adaptr> it's been done. about 30 years ago
[21:42:06] <n0bane> I'm sure it has
[21:42:11] <n0bane> I can't get it to work :(
[21:42:21] <adaptr> too bad
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[21:42:53] <n0bane> if you don't know how to answer my question, you shouldn't have said anything..
[21:43:15] <n0bane> returning the message back to postfix system? sounds pretty absurd
[21:43:24] <n0bane> it was already in it... seems like scripts should be end poits
[21:43:26] <n0bane> points*
[21:43:36] <adaptr> so you won't be needing help, I take it
[21:44:07] <n0bane> I would like to do the 2nd option
[21:44:16] <n0bane> deliver the mail twice
[21:44:24] <n0bane> to the maildir and my script
[21:48:03] <n0bane> ..
[21:53:10] <atossava> n0bane: set up procmail in the mailbox and forget about doing it inside postfix
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[21:53:32] <atossava> !goals
[21:53:32] <knoba> atossava: Error: "goals" is not a valid command.
[21:53:42] <atossava> hmm how does one use the bot again
[21:53:45] <atossava> !topic goals
[21:53:46] <knoba> atossava: Error: "topic" is not a valid command.
[21:54:48] <atossava> !tell n0bane goals
[21:54:48] <knoba> atossava: Error: No factoid matches that key.
[21:54:57] <atossava> duh :D
[21:55:09] <atossava> !tell n0bane goal
[21:55:10] <knoba> n0bane: "goal" : describe your goal, not what you think the solution is
[21:55:25] <n0bane> hmm
[21:55:34] <n0bane> I don't think I'm using procmail
[21:55:35] <atossava> and fwiw what adaptr said as your 1st option ("program a proper filter") that's the thing to do
[21:55:50] <atossava> if you're delivering to a maildir that might be a tad hard I admit
[21:56:15] <atossava> using procmail that is
[21:56:19] <n0bane> mailbox_command =
[21:56:22] <n0bane> its just empty
[21:57:02] <atossava> do you have virtual mailboxes or real UNIX users?
[21:57:07] <n0bane> virtual SQL
[21:57:21] <atossava> k no home directories and no .forward then and mailbox_command is not your friend in that case
[21:57:34] <n0bane> yeah I figured
[21:57:48] <n0bane> I'm going on my own directory structure
[21:57:53] <n0bane> /mail/$user/
[21:58:08] <atossava> yes
[21:58:14] <atossava> so what you want to do is to program a proper filter in case you want to keep the mail as well as do something with it
[21:58:18] <adaptr> against my better judgement - and the unprovoked abuse of nofucking bane - dovecot deliver and sieve will obviously do whatever you want.
[21:58:34] <n0bane> im using courier
[21:58:45] <adaptr> SO SWITCH
[21:58:51] <n0bane> I was using dovecot
[21:58:58] <n0bane> and it was giving me issues with the virtual SQL users
[21:59:07] <adaptr> yes, your descent into absuridity was evident
[21:59:20] <adaptr> you don't need virtual users
[21:59:22] <n0bane> ok well I guess I can try dovecot again
[21:59:31] <n0bane> ...how do you know what my operation needs?
[21:59:38] <atossava> you haven't described it :D
[21:59:43] <n0bane> exactly..
[21:59:49] <n0bane> thats not important
[21:59:56] <n0bane> I just want something simple
[21:59:59] <adaptr> you are clueless about email and postfix. hence, yo udon't need virtual anything.
[22:00:02] <n0bane> to trigger a script on message receival
[22:00:08] <n0bane> seems a simple feature to have....but alas....
[22:00:22] <atossava> a filter processes a message and returns the processed message.
[22:00:22] <n0bane> clueless?
[22:00:28] <n0bane> I have a boss that needs email....
[22:00:39] <atossava> outsource to gmail or something? :D
[22:00:39] <n0bane> I dont give a damn about how complex they had to fucking design postfix
[22:00:41] <n0bane> but I have to use it
[22:00:47] <n0bane> no we have to have our own service
[22:00:53] <n0bane> can't have people snooping our messages
[22:01:03] <atossava> pgp is just as good if the stuff is in gmail
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[22:01:10] <adaptr> so you're already using TLS everywhere, and full GPG on all traffic ?
[22:01:28] <adaptr> otherwise, your statement is nonsense
[22:01:32] <n0bane> no we are building the platform, eventually we will use something of that standard
[22:01:34] <atossava> (cuz if you aren't the distinction between cooking your own or not is meaningless)
[22:01:45] <adaptr> atossava: stop repeating everything I say! :P
[22:01:46] <atossava> eventually... but in the meantime it's ok to have your stuff snooped
[22:01:51] <atossava> adaptr: :D
[22:02:04] <n0bane> so...anyway....
[22:02:08] <n0bane> triggering a script...
[22:02:27] <adaptr> "notify users of new mail" means what, exactly. HOW are they notified
[22:02:27] <atossava> either have real mailboxes with unix users & execute procmail from .forward
[22:02:33] <atossava> or write a filter that does what a filter is supposed to do
[22:02:44] <n0bane> ok well can this magical filter be done with PHP?
[22:02:52] <atossava> a filter can be written in anything you can write a program
[22:02:56] <atossava> it's just a program
[22:03:10] <n0bane> or write a filter that does what a filter is supposed to do
[22:03:14] <atossava> but it needs to return stuff back, otherwise it is not a filter as adaptr says
[22:03:23] <n0bane> i have seen barely any examples or documentation on good filters...
[22:03:28] <n0bane> maybe I just fail at googling....
[22:03:33] <atossava> your basic filter is "cat"
[22:03:37] <atossava> x in, x out
[22:03:42] <adaptr> !google
[22:03:42] <knoba> adaptr: "google" : Those who use Google before reading the Postfix documentation, if fortunate, end up at http://www.postfix.org/ . If not, they end up in a jumble of bad questions, misleading or wrong answers, and outdated information.
[22:03:48] <atossava> making it any more complex is your job
[22:03:54] <adaptr> !tell n0bane why
[22:03:54] <knoba> n0bane: "why" : are you sure that installing, configuring and maintaining a mailserver is really what you want to do here? it's not something that's for the faint of heart, and definitely not something for folks that are still just learning the basics of linux or unix. also see !nullclient
[22:04:34] <n0bane> yes we are building a real time collaboration platform
[22:04:44] <n0bane> that will be engaged in transforming society and the way ppl live
[22:04:51] <n0bane> and many people will have an interest to disrupt it
[22:04:57] <n0bane> so YES we need all of our own shit
[22:05:19] <adaptr> wow, entitlement transforms seamlessly into delusions of superiority
[22:05:33] <n0bane> yes because I'm the one be arrogant
[22:05:39] <n0bane> when you simply cant answer a question
[22:05:43] <n0bane> why speak up and be a troll?
[22:05:54] <n0bane> if the BEST you can offer me
[22:05:59] <n0bane> is that it HAS to be dovecot
[22:06:04] <n0bane> say it and SHUT THE FUCK UP?
[22:07:06] <atossava> It doesn't have to be dovecot, but you have to have a clue about how UNIX and MTAs work if you are going to work with them to the extent you describe here.
[22:07:38] <n0bane> I do have some what of a clue about them, and anything I need to learn I can! It's not an issue ffs
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[22:09:06] <atossava> You said you want to write a filter, then you act surprised when the message isn't delivered when the script you put in the place of a filter doesn't return the message so it could be delivered. Do you see why it looks as if you're not up to the job?
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[22:10:26] <n0bane> (12:41:27 PM) n0bane: I just want it to trigger ANY script, could be php, python, perl
[22:10:26] <n0bane> (12:41:36 PM) n0bane: so that it makes a RPC call on a URL
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[22:10:28] <n0bane> is what I said
[22:11:05] <sp00kz> no one likes talking to assholes, you may find little to no help here due to your coversation tone
[22:12:26] <n0bane> (12:41:44 PM) n0bane: that notifies a user they received an email
[22:12:26] <n0bane> (12:41:57 PM) adaptr: ...biff
[22:12:26] <n0bane> (12:42:03 PM) adaptr: it's been done. about 30 years ago
[22:12:41] <n0bane> yes I'm the asshole when I get treated back when I come with a simple scenario
[22:12:42] <atossava> 22:35 < n0bane> I'm trying to set up a postfix filter to trigger a PHP script when receiving mail
[22:12:45] <atossava> 22:36 < n0bane> but when I do that, it prevents the original mail handler from running (which is maildir)
[22:12:49] <atossava> 22:36 < n0bane> I want maildir to still run AND execute the PHP script.... how do I do this??
[22:12:52] <atossava> 22:39 < adaptr> you want to send the mail to a maildir and execute an external program ?
[22:12:55] <atossava> 22:40 < adaptr> a postfix filter should - obviously - returnj the message back to postfix if you intend to retain it
[22:12:59] <atossava> 22:40 < adaptr> otherwise, it's a sink, not a "filter"
[22:13:08] <n0bane> yes so I realized thats not what I want
[22:13:16] <n0bane> I've made it clear I just need something to trigger the script
[22:13:23] <n0bane> procmail would work, I know...but I'm not using that
[22:13:54] <n0bane> just send me a link of one of these filters you are describing
[22:13:59] <Nido> http://www.postfix.org/FILTER_README.html
[22:14:20] <atossava> Which is the reception of the message, and running whatever delivers the mail is where that happens. So you want something to run at that point, and the usual answer is a filter. Your filter doesn't need to do anything to the message itself (as in, adjust the contents), but it must return it so it can be delivered, otherwise if you don't return it it will be lost.
[22:14:39] <atossava> A link to what? A filter is "something in, something out". Usually "something related out".
[22:14:41] <Nido> first example is a little shell script, you can execute your whatever you wanna run inside that
[22:14:56] <atossava> If your out is "", you lose.
[22:15:07] <atossava> Here's a filter: "|cat"
[22:15:16] <atossava> X in, X out. No transformation
[22:15:45] <atossava> Anything more complex than that - it's *your* job to decide what you want done with *your* messages, nobody else can guess what you're thinking :D
[22:15:50] <n0bane> so are you saying that I should echo the message?
[22:16:00] <atossava> Bingo!!!
[22:16:02] <n0bane> WOW
[22:16:09] <n0bane> just say that next time!!!
[22:16:12] <n0bane> :P
[22:16:16] <atossava> It Was Said To You A Long Time Ago Here.
[22:16:23] <atossava> You also rejected the notion.
[22:16:40] <atossava> 22:43 < n0bane> returning the message back to postfix system? sounds pretty absurd
[22:16:44] <atossava> 22:43 < n0bane> it was already in it... seems like scripts should be end poits
[22:17:02] <atossava> At which point adaptr quite sensibly decided you weren't in the need of any help.
[22:17:38] <n0bane> yeah it just sounded weird to me haha
[22:17:40] <n0bane> the way you put it
[22:17:49] <n0bane> if you had said just stdout the message back
[22:17:52] <n0bane> or echo
[22:18:11] <n0bane> its just a langauge thing...nothing for ppl to fight about
[22:18:32] <atossava> So English isn't good enough for you, you need the chan to sp34k 31337. Glad we got that out of the way too
[22:19:08] <n0bane> thats not what I meant
[22:19:21] <n0bane> I meant when you say something it makes me think something else
[22:19:32] <n0bane> just because of a different background
[22:19:45] <n0bane> also known as a...misunderstanding..
[22:20:43] <atossava> Can be. If you get any replies here, people are generally trying to help you. Dropping all attitude would be helpful to your cause.
[22:22:17] <n0bane> ok well I'm sorry if I come off with an attitude towards you
[22:22:20] <n0bane> or anyone
[22:24:10] <atossava> np
[22:26:41] <n0bane> could what I'm wanting be accomplished with the aliases
[22:26:42] <n0bane> ?
[22:28:46] <atossava> You need to be able to set up two delivery mechanisms, one for your script, and one for all addresses. Then you need to alias every address, existing and any future ones, to itself and the script mailbox address. It's not a good idea. You want to run a filter, and the FILTER_README you've been pointed at has examples.
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[22:33:16] <n0bane> It's not even triggering my script at all :\
[22:33:25] <n0bane> following that readme
[22:33:30] <n0bane> and other examples
[22:33:41] <n0bane> it says it is in the /var/log/mail
[22:34:07] <atossava> What is not triggering your script?
[22:34:22] <n0bane> postfix doesn't seem to be
[22:34:27] <atossava> If you want anybody to even have a chance of debugging anything, pastebin all relevant logs.
[22:34:34] <atossava> We're also not mind readers.
[22:34:41] <n0bane> I sure hope not :)
[22:38:41] <n0bane> http://pastebin.com/RzhCTRmy
[22:38:56] <n0bane> test.txt is not being written to
[22:39:44] <atossava> Your script does not even attempt to do anything with the message data that it receives on stdin.
[22:39:50] <n0bane> I know
[22:39:52] <n0bane> it was before
[22:39:56] <n0bane> but then i realized
[22:40:01] <n0bane> it wanst even getting triggered
[22:40:06] <n0bane> so ive simplified it a ton
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[22:40:14] <n0bane> and it still isnt working
[22:40:33] <n0bane> regardless if I do anything with stdin or not
[22:40:41] <JPT> so file permissions on test.txt and on the script itself (+x) are fine?
[22:40:45] <n0bane> I should see the Message received! no?
[22:40:46] <n0bane> yes
[22:40:52] <n0bane> I can execute it from console
[22:41:01] <n0bane> and it logs to the file
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[22:41:07] <atossava> Can you execute it as www-data from the console?
[22:41:08] <JPT> so you'
[22:41:10] <JPT> urgs
[22:41:18] <n0bane> I should try that, but yes my normal user
[22:41:21] <n0bane> its all 777
[22:41:38] <JPT> 777? common...
[22:41:40] <atossava> (which is another bad sign)
[22:42:23] <atossava> If you can't execute it as www-data from the console, do you expect to be able to execute it as www-data from a script? If you haven't tried, how do you know?
[22:42:45] <n0bane> good point
[22:42:47] <n0bane> and yes, you are right
[22:42:52] <n0bane> looks like fopen fails
[22:43:02] <JPT> i'm still trying to understand why the www-data user gets pulled into the postfix configuration anyway...
[22:43:05] <n0bane> but it shouldnt.... www-data writes to /hsp/ from apache
[22:43:14] <n0bane> oh thats cause I copied that off someones blog
[22:43:14] <atossava> whatever you try to do, try to test it in exactly the way it would happen in the system
[22:43:20] <n0bane> I should probably make a new user
[22:43:30] <atossava> whatever, just as long as it isn't root and postfix :)
[22:43:34] <atossava> as it says in the filter_readme
[22:43:36] <n0bane> you are totally right and I usually do atossava
[22:43:58] <n0bane> apache (www-data) writes to /hsp/ so I assumed it was working
[22:44:05] <atossava> you could try something that is guaranteed to succeed, such as writing a new file in /tmp
[22:44:06] <n0bane> apparently there is something strange goin on :O
[22:44:18] <atossava> !tell n0bane assume
[22:44:18] <knoba> atossava: Error: No factoid matches that key.
[22:44:23] <atossava> we don't have one... we should
[22:44:30] <JPT> everything is a mystery unless you really understand it :)
[22:44:50] <atossava> assume = to make an 'ass' out of 'u' and 'me'.
[22:44:54] <n0bane> ok so, lets say the script was working though
[22:45:06] <n0bane> $fd = fopen("php://stdin", "r");
[22:45:11] <n0bane> I would do that, read it all in
[22:45:15] <n0bane> and then just echo it?
[22:45:33] <atossava> if you want the filter to be a filter, it has to return what it got from stdin on stdout, modified or not
[22:45:35] <JPT> depends on your memory limit (and maybe stuff like magic_quotes_gpc)
[22:45:36] <atossava> otherwise it's not a filter, it's a sink
[22:46:00] <n0bane> who's memory limit, PHP?
[22:46:07] <JPT> yup
[22:46:29] <JPT> think of an email from your friend with the latest debian dvd iso image attached ;)
[22:46:37] <n0bane> yea exacty
[22:46:40] <n0bane> what then?
[22:46:59] <n0bane> crash? :O
[22:47:08] <JPT> nothing. but depending on how your script reads the input, it might die due to the memory_limit
[22:47:50] <n0bane> ok
[22:48:09] <n0bane> so...you guys are telling me that if I echo back everything from stdin
[22:48:20] <n0bane> postfix will do the regular maildir?
[22:48:31] <atossava> whatever happens regularly happens after the filter has executed.
[22:48:37] <atossava> If the filter returns nothing, there is nothing to deliver.
[22:48:42] <n0bane> ok gotcha
[22:48:53] <n0bane> sweet! thank you. I fully understand now
[22:48:56] <n0bane> sorry that was painful
[22:48:59] <atossava> :D
[22:49:50] <JPT> :)
[22:56:07] <n0bane> ok
[22:56:13] <n0bane> so some good news
[22:56:18] <n0bane> script is definetly executing now
[22:56:24] <n0bane> bad news however...
[22:56:30] <n0bane> well check out the updated script:
[22:57:16] <n0bane> http://pastebin.com/fmQbERYW
[22:57:27] <n0bane> it outputs "Message received! 1 1 1"
[22:58:00] <JPT> hmm
[22:58:03] <n0bane> flags=F user=www-data argv=/hsp/mail.php ${sender} ${size} ${recipient}
[22:58:16] <n0bane> (I will change the user eventually too...dont worry )
[22:58:33] <JPT> print_r($argv) might be interesting
[22:58:47] <n0bane> ok
[22:58:50] <n0bane> I will log that
[23:00:18] <n0bane> just says
[23:00:19] <n0bane> flags=F user=www-data argv=/hsp/mailman.php ${sender} ${size} ${recipient}
[23:00:20] <n0bane> oops
[23:00:24] <n0bane> 1
[23:00:48] <n0bane> :S
[23:01:34] <JPT> umm
[23:02:07] <n0bane> yea I'm baffled too
[23:02:13] <n0bane> fwrite($file, print_r($argv));
[23:02:23] <n0bane> =
[23:02:23] <n0bane> 1
[23:02:24] <JPT> aah, no :)
[23:02:33] <JPT> print_r() will just print the result to stdout
[23:02:39] <n0bane> ohhh thats right
[23:02:47] <JPT> you'll have to use print_r($array, TRUE) to have it return a string
[23:02:50] <n0bane> its not for file ouput
[23:02:54] <n0bane> oh ok
[23:03:02] <n0bane> hehe
[23:03:08] <n0bane> it was just saying it did the right thing!
[23:03:56] <n0bane> ok yeah thats working
[23:04:14] <n0bane> [1] => n0bane@localhost
[23:04:14] <n0bane> [2] => 686
[23:04:14] <n0bane> [3] => n0bane@localhost
[23:04:21] <JPT> much better
[23:04:36] <n0bane> ok but still, its not sending it to the maildir
[23:04:42] <n0bane> did you see my little echo out of the stdin?
[23:05:31] <JPT> yup... i guess feof() is making trouble
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[23:06:06] <n0bane> hm well
[23:06:09] <n0bane> I just added
[23:06:14] <n0bane> fwrite($file, $email);
[23:06:19] <n0bane> and its all there
[23:06:46] <JPT> mhh...then, your "filter" should be working
[23:07:06] <n0bane> with just echo?
[23:07:13] <n0bane> nothing special?
[23:07:15] <JPT> echo $some_string; is fine
[23:07:20] <JPT> it will write to stdout
[23:07:25] <n0bane> right....
[23:07:29] <n0bane> :(
[23:08:40] <JPT> maybe the setting in your master.cf does not do anything about the result of your custom filter
[23:09:02] <JPT> i never really bothered with the master.cf... there are too many things that it controls and passes on
[23:09:05] <n0bane> thats what appears to be happening
[23:09:09] <atossava> I'm not a php programmer, but I'm kinda curious about the limitation on the fread. Do you actually get the entire email, or just the first kilobyte, or lines chopped off at 1024 characters?
[23:09:32] <n0bane> the entire email is in /tmp/test.txt
[23:09:34] <atossava> k
[23:09:39] <n0bane> perfect, as it appears when maildir makes it
[23:09:45] <atossava> so it is in the $email string within the script
[23:09:51] <n0bane> yes
[23:09:58] <JPT> atossava: the php documentation is really awesome :) http://php.net/fread
[23:10:15] <atossava> indeed that is what I was looking at jpt
[23:10:28] <n0bane> what are you thinking atossava?
[23:10:34] <n0bane> does it have to do with my line
[23:10:42] <n0bane> flags=F user=www-data argv=/hsp/mail.php ${sender} ${size} ${recipient}
[23:10:45] <n0bane> flags perhaps?
[23:11:00] <n0bane> I see the other ones use an R flag
[23:11:04] <n0bane> could that be return?
[23:11:06] <n0bane> FR
[23:11:13] <n0bane> filter/return?
[23:12:02] <JPT> *shrug* isn't there a nice documentation about this detail?
[23:13:10] <atossava> here's the flags http://www.postfix.org/pipe.8.html
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[23:13:42] <n0bane> oh hey guys
[23:13:43] <n0bane> check this out
[23:13:55] <n0bane> The "-o content_filter" line causes Postfix to add one content filter request record to each incoming mail message, with content "filter:dummy". This record overrides the normal mail routing and causes mail to be given to the content filter instead.
[23:14:10] <n0bane> overrides normal mail routing
[23:14:51] <n0bane> could that be it?
[23:15:55] <atossava> Yes. The example shown in the filter_readme executes the MTA again at the end, after the file has been through the filter.
[23:16:26] <JPT> mhh.. just like my amavis setup that re-injects the mail on localhost:10026 or something
[23:16:35] <n0bane> is that with the sendmail?
[23:16:45] <n0bane> $SENDMAIL "$@" <in.$$
[23:18:05] <atossava> yes
[23:18:13] <atossava> but it's postfix in actual fact
[23:18:40] <n0bane> "/usr/sbin/sendmail -G -i"
[23:18:43] <n0bane> so.......
[23:18:47] <n0bane> I exec() that?
[23:18:59] <n0bane> with the message as the parameter?
[23:19:36] <atossava> you need to have the message available somewhere that you can feed it back to be delivered
[23:19:49] <atossava> the message is not a command line parameter, it needs to appear on the stdin of the delivery agent
[23:20:03] <n0bane> this is getting complex again
[23:20:09] <n0bane> I thought you said I could just echo it back?
[23:20:18] <n0bane> and it goes down the filter chain
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[23:20:48] <atossava> I was reading the doco poorly too
[23:21:08] <n0bane> yeah its not a very easy read
[23:21:36] <n0bane> well
[23:21:46] <n0bane> I guess I could just deliver the mail myself?
[23:21:52] <n0bane> it can't be that hard right?
[23:22:07] <n0bane> just create the proper text file with the right permissions
[23:22:51] <JPT> umm...don't try that...
[23:23:01] <n0bane> ugh
[23:23:06] <atossava> let the LDA do its job
[23:23:07] <n0bane> well then what do i do :(
[23:23:11] <JPT> it might get impossible to add an lda like dovecot to your setup lateron
[23:23:15] <atossava> he
[23:23:19] <atossava> 's using courier already
[23:23:35] <n0bane> yes and its all working together nice
[23:23:42] <n0bane> the IMAP access and virtual users
[23:23:48] <atossava> so whatever courier does, you miss out on if you decide to do its job yourself
[23:24:30] <n0bane> exactly
[23:24:35] <n0bane> I want this to be as simple as possible
[23:24:49] <n0bane> I don't really need to get that much information or even modify the message
[23:25:01] <atossava> which is why you write the message into a temporary file and call the MTA again to deliver it
[23:25:20] <n0bane> but how would I not get stuck in a loop?
[23:25:36] <atossava> the calling again is supposed to take care of that?
[23:25:51] <atossava> but you lose a factor of at least four in performance with post-queue filtering
[23:26:05] <n0bane> hm
[23:26:05] <atossava> so if you're looking to build a system that serves a lot of mail, you need to worry about that
[23:26:11] <n0bane> yes
[23:26:14] <n0bane> it will eventually
[23:26:21] <atossava> because simply delivering messages without any additional crap is a job in itself
[23:26:29] <n0bane> we are looking for the most scalible option here
[23:26:40] <atossava> think dovecot LDA indexing the mailbox every time you get a new message into it for example
[23:26:57] <n0bane> yeah its out of the question
[23:27:40] <atossava> I got into a situation where deliveries to a mailbox that collates spam were so frequent that the dovecot LDA indexing became an issue. This is on a test system that receives on the order of 1.5M messages+attempts on a bad day so far, with no real mailboxes, just spam
[23:28:01] <atossava> And that isn't even a lot
[23:28:42] <n0bane> well I'm still stuck
[23:28:47] <n0bane> what do you think I should do?
[23:30:19] <JPT> do something good :)
[23:30:32] <atossava> You plan to notify users every time there is an email? (As in, logged-in users on your website?)
[23:31:21] <n0bane> yes I have an XMPP server that has users logged into it via a website
[23:31:21] <JPT> if you use long-polling and a couchdb, it could be possible without performance issues :)
[23:31:26] <n0bane> via AJAX or websockets
[23:31:37] <n0bane> and I want to call a RPC on my XMPP server
[23:32:03] <n0bane> to have it pipe to the users browser via their bi-directional connection
[23:32:11] <n0bane> when they get an email
[23:32:52] <atossava> jpt: doing it all outside the email delivery framework somehow?
[23:33:12] <JPT> depends on what you intend to do ;)
[23:33:20] <n0bane> yeah I thought about this
[23:33:25] <JPT> i'm just giving random ideas that i think are a nice way to do stuff...
[23:33:30] <n0bane> low-level file system monitor
[23:33:33] <JPT> no warranties :)
[23:35:09] <atossava> Simply because if you're looking to receive a lot of mail, you want as little as possible interfering with it.
[23:35:21] <JPT> umm...
[23:35:31] <JPT> in that case, you might want to use something different than php
[23:35:42] <atossava> That's another question :D
[23:35:50] <n0bane> yes thats another issue
[23:35:56] <JPT> one php instance needs about ~4-5MiB of your ram
[23:35:58] <n0bane> that I can handle, we just gotta get it working first :D
[23:36:14] <n0bane> ok well I was thinking
[23:36:15] <atossava> But if you really, really need to run a program every time a message is received, somehow a milter seems more like the place to do it than post-queue.
[23:36:27] <n0bane> yeah now that I think about it
[23:36:33] <n0bane> in the long run
[23:36:39] <n0bane> dealing with tons of emails and users
[23:36:53] <n0bane> it might be more scaliable to just code an option to have the clients check themselves for messages
[23:36:56] <n0bane> at a given interval
[23:37:04] <n0bane> probably limit of 15 seconds
[23:37:11] <n0bane> cant check more than every 15
[23:37:25] <n0bane> and that would be browser -> XMPP server -> courier IMAP -> check for messages
[23:38:31] <atossava> It's easy to check whether that's scalable. Tune any IMAP client (say, thunderbird, or a webmail such as RoundCube) to check mail at your proposed interval. Run as many clients as you think you'll have simultaneous users (multiply by a factor of x to be safe). See how your IMAP server likes it
[23:39:11] <n0bane> well since everything is standard installation
[23:39:23] <atossava> But yeah, having the clients handle the mailbox checking is already a much better idea than running a program at mail delivery time.
[23:39:26] <n0bane> wouldnt that relate more to my CPU, hard drive type and network speed?
[23:39:41] <n0bane> not the performance of the program
[23:40:10] <n0bane> a solid-state hard drive server with 8 quad-core processors on a terabit connection
[23:40:13] <atossava> The backend needs to be able to handle what you're trying to do with it. So check if it is.
[23:40:18] <n0bane> could probably handle all 7 billion peoples email
[23:40:26] <JPT> i wonder how google does it.
[23:40:28] <atossava> Terabit. Wow. I thought 10 Gbit was the state of the art. :D
[23:40:36] <n0bane> hehe :D
[23:40:48] <atossava> jpt: Tons of separate machines is a good start.
[23:41:03] <JPT> right. but these tons of machines have to be organized somehow
[23:41:04] <n0bane> they have some buildings
[23:41:14] <JPT> then there must be some sort of monster-storage
[23:41:21] <atossava> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_platform
[23:41:23] <n0bane> yup
[23:41:31] <n0bane> they built one in my home town
[23:41:34] <n0bane> a google data center
[23:42:05] <atossava> monster storage? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_File_System
[23:43:04] <n0bane> colossus
[23:43:06] <n0bane> haha
[23:43:14] <atossava> n0bane: how much memory does each separate imap server instance consume?
[23:43:38] <n0bane> well since everything is all on one box and theres just one imap server...
[23:43:44] <n0bane> not very much :D
[23:43:57] <n0bane> that is because im developing the platform still
[23:44:22] <atossava> no, but you already know this. You have an IMAP server. When you connect to it, how much memory does the process consume?
[23:44:33] <atossava> (And how much of it is not shared.)
[23:44:38] <atossava> 20101 vmail 20 0 26440 5436 1640 S 0.0 0.5 0:18.65 124 imap
[23:44:46] <n0bane> oh ok
[23:44:56] <atossava> This is on a Dovecot-based system on centos6 64-bit
[23:45:11] <atossava> So I figure it's about 3M per imap (resident minus shared)
[23:45:15] <n0bane> yea i feel like a noob cause i dont know a slick command to filter top
[23:45:20] <n0bane> how do i filter top by user?
[23:45:23] <atossava> u
[23:45:26] <n0bane> haha
[23:45:45] <JPT> z b x c v and then use <, > and shift+r to sort
[23:45:53] <JPT> (plus maybe d 0.5)
[23:46:16] <n0bane> 6198 vmail 20 0 22396 1684 1208 S 0 0.0 0:00.01 gam_server
[23:46:28] <n0bane> nothing else is showing up when I connect
[23:46:30] <n0bane> ill keep trying
[23:46:54] <n0bane> ok
[23:46:55] <n0bane> there we go
[23:46:56] <n0bane> 7817 vmail 20 0 24496 1284 1004 S 0 0.0 0:00.00 imapd
[23:48:11] <atossava> that's very little
[23:49:38] <n0bane> well
[23:49:48] <n0bane> I think ill just settle on the client doing the work
[23:50:05] <n0bane> haha that was a waste of two hours :P
[23:50:12] * n0bane smokes a bowl
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[23:52:32] <n0bane> oh atossava
[23:52:40] <n0bane> something a google tech told me
[23:52:59] <n0bane> they reportedly have every version of every website cached in ram atleast 4 times
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   February 18, 2012  
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