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[00:00:13] <wesolows> either it's really a disaster or it's not
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[00:00:57] <e^ipi> eject some stuff out to tape or something
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[00:01:54] <wesolows> or just delete some of it.  If it's not valuable enough to be worth the cost of one more disk, how important can it really be?
[00:02:15] <Zambezi> wesolows: As I said. The reservaion is there for a reason, but I'm looking for alternatives if there might be another OS which suit my needs better. If not, I have to set the default to 8%, but it's going to cause me problem.
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[00:03:17] <Zambezi> wesolows: If you also had 100 euro for the rest of the month (bills paid), then you probably wouldn't buy an extra harddrive even how important it is.
[00:03:22] <wesolows> feel free to file RFEs for the stuff you'd need from Solaris
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[00:03:31] <wesolows> it seems like you really just need zfs crypto
[00:03:37] <wesolows> which is already happening
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[00:06:28] <babel12345> hello, my i doing a test.
[00:06:29] <cmihai> Zambezi, you do realize that the same rule applies for any filesystem?
[00:06:40] <cmihai> You shouldn't really top if off if you want good performance?
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[00:06:51] <Zambezi> cmihai: I have 0 reservation on mine no.
[00:07:02] <cmihai> Sigh.
[00:07:19] <cmihai> Just because there is no reservation.. doesn't mean you're supposed to fill it to 100%.
[00:07:20] <e^ipi> just build a harddrive out of ducttape and bloody chickenwire
[00:07:25] <Zambezi> cmihai: Security come before permormance.
[00:07:45] <e^ipi> it wouldn't be too far off from the hackjob you're trying to accomplish now
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[00:08:06] <cmihai> Look, you've tried Linux, OpenBSD, Solaris, refuse FreeBSD, probably won't consider NetBSD, MacOS and Vista are out of the picture...
[00:08:11] <wesolows> Zambezi: If I had 100 euro I'd buy myself Manhattan and retire.  You don't know how good you've got it.
[00:08:15] <cmihai> go use qnx with cesar encryption
[00:08:23] <cmihai> do it twice, for better protection...
[00:08:38] <cmihai> You refuse to buy another disk or compress your files better..
[00:08:43] <cmihai> What do you expect, really?
[00:09:07] <Zambezi> wesolows: 100 Euro is like 150 dollar.
[00:09:13] <wesolows> His data is really really important but it's not important enough to be worth 100 euro.
[00:09:21] <wesolows> *shrug*
[00:09:29] <e^ipi> IIRC he mentioned it's just MP3's and porn anyways
[00:09:30] <wesolows> Zambezi: Forgive the hyperbole.
[00:09:32] <cmihai> (or backed up or using any kind of RAID).
[00:10:15] <Zambezi> wesolows: I have 150 dollar on my bankaccount. That should last for four weeks. Buying a harddrive instead of food is out of the question.
[00:10:17] <cmihai> You're running out of operating systems mate.
[00:10:28] <e^ipi> there's always HURD
[00:10:30] <wesolows> Then your data is not really that important to you.
[00:10:41] <vmlemon> OS/2!
[00:10:52] <cmihai> HURD is a HIRD of crap.
[00:10:57] <wesolows> I'm not saying you're making the wrong decision, I'm just saying that your budget does not allow you to solve the problem you claim is important in any reasonable way.
[00:11:19] <Zambezi> e^ipi: I didn't mention what it was.
[00:11:43] <cmihai> Of course, it's sicrit! shush shush :-)
[00:11:58] <e^ipi> I don't understand non-redundant data
[00:12:01] <Zambezi> wesolows: I can afford it next month, but not this.
[00:12:07] <hsn_> are there any plans to make SXDE installer work on 256mb machines?
[00:12:15] <e^ipi> christ, even my MP3's that i still have the original CD's for are stored redundantly
[00:12:18] <cmihai> hsn_, just install SXCE in text mode.
[00:12:28] <cmihai> hsn_, you can install the development tools after you're done installing.
[00:12:42] <hsn_> cmihai: installer hangs
[00:12:59] <cmihai> Try SXCE 75, just came out :-)
[00:13:04] <cmihai> Install in text mode.
[00:13:14] <e^ipi> hsn_: so... stop trying to shoehorn an enterprise OS in to a 15 year old junker peecee ?
[00:13:15] <Zambezi> cmihai: FreeBSD/NetBSD or some Solaris, but encryption is in alphastage and I don't want to lose data a third time.
[00:13:20] <e^ipi> buy more ram
[00:13:21] <cmihai> I'd say put at least a gig on that machine, but I know I'm wasting my time here.
[00:14:05] <e^ipi> heh
[00:14:27] <e^ipi> it's the day of "why won't solaris give me more hardware than I've got by magic and not money?"
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[00:14:38] <cmihai> Seeing how you've aready lost data twice, maybe you should consider that your approach to this problem is wrong.
[00:15:23] <Zambezi> cmihai: I can't help there's a bug in LUKS making the header corrupted.
[00:15:41] <cmihai> Did you report this said bug?
[00:15:56] <Zambezi> cmihai: It's different if I caused the problem. Then a change of OS won't solve it.
[00:16:20] <Zambezi> cmihai: Of course. I was the fourth or fifth person reporting it.
[00:16:52] <e^ipi> you could've patched it yourself *shrug*
[00:16:53] <cmihai> Just out of curiosity, did you use encrypted swap?
[00:17:18] <Zambezi> cmihai: No. Just storages.
[00:17:23] <cmihai> Well, that makes it an interesting excercise in futility, now doesn't it?
[00:17:40] <cmihai> Know how MacOS File Vault was "cracked"?
[00:17:48] <cmihai> Flawless crypto, plain keys in swap.
[00:18:11] <e^ipi> there's a reason gpg complains at you if you've not got it set up to peg pages to memory and avoid swap
[00:18:22] <LuckyLuke> is it still vulnerable? FileVault I mean, and sorry for the offtopic...
[00:18:23] <e^ipi> data, when placed in memory, is insecure.
[00:18:40] <e^ipi> if the OS pages out that chunk of memory, the data is permanently stored in an insecure place
[00:18:51] <cmihai> LuckyLuke, Filevault was never "vulnerable" in itself. They've just added FreeBSD's encrypted swap features to MacOS.
[00:19:02] <LuckyLuke> ah 'kay
[00:19:09] <cmihai> Crypto wan't help you if they get your memory.
[00:19:14] <cmihai> And since stuff in memory gets paged...
[00:19:16] <cmihai> your swap.
[00:19:39] <Zambezi> cmihai: I don't think that caused the bug.
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[00:21:12] <cmihai> I pity you, who art bereft of gorm. I was pointing out the futility of your little excercise. Your encryption will only protect your disks if your computer is off (since an attacker can just patch in through a serial cable, take a memory dump and figure out the keys). OR just strings / grep your swap. Really nice.
[00:21:16] <LuckyLuke> Zambezi: an idea. if you're so short on both money and storage, and if your storage is useless until you add a disk, why don't you shut off your multi-tera array until you get enough money in electricity savings to buy a new disk?
[00:22:42] <Zambezi> cmihai: Want to know a secret? ;-) The server with encryption is online for like 10 hours/week. So the protection is pretty okay.
[00:23:33] <cmihai> (not to mention that anything like a kernel module in ring 0, say a rootkit will be able to snatch the keys). With remote access exploits every few months, it's bound to happen :-).
[00:24:03] <cmihai> Zambezi, you're missing the point. That encryption won't protect you more than a good lock on your door.
[00:24:51] <Zambezi> cmihai: Encrypt the swap is the next step of course.
[00:25:02] <cmihai> Unless, of course, you're one of the many paranoid people who thinks their governament is out to get them or something like that.
[00:25:15] <e^ipi> zfs crypto + zfs swap = encrypted swap
[00:25:16] <e^ipi> *nod*
[00:25:31] <cmihai> :-)
[00:25:58] <e^ipi> added bonus, you lose the ability to dump system state to storage
[00:26:06] <Zambezi> I'm going to have a look at it when I change OS.
[00:26:09] <cmihai> Yep.
[00:26:39] <cmihai> Even with encrypted swap, if you ruin it by dumping the memory (and effectively the keys).. .you're still screwed :-).
[00:26:55] <cmihai> Especially since the crypto layer should be off when the system is paniced :-).
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[00:27:23] <Zambezi> e^ipi: Of course there's a downside with encryption, but it's worth it.
[00:27:24] <e^ipi> zfs swap breaks dumpadm anyways
[00:27:47] * h3sp4wn wonders why he ever messed with blastwave or pkg-src when SFE has pretty much all I want (and its easy to build with commercial oss)
[00:27:48] <e^ipi> Zambezi: downside being "don't be retarded, the CIA didn't put a chip in your brain..."
[00:27:53] <cmihai> BSD has something nice here... secure levels, you disable the kmem access and the kernel debugger, you need to reboot in single user mode (and re-authentificare) to change the level. Not a bad idea.
[00:28:20] <e^ipi> cmihai: that's what the 'immutable' property was intended to be
[00:28:30] <cmihai> You can also do stuff like append only files (logs) and immutable files and such :-).
[00:28:37] <e^ipi> in linux you can set/unset immutable on a running multi-user system
[00:28:48] <e^ipi> completely eliminating the whole point of it in the first place
[00:28:56] <cmihai> That's.. retarded.
[00:29:05] <e^ipi> isn't it though?
[00:29:12] <cmihai> Yeah :-)
[00:30:22] <cmihai> Though, it got me thinking.
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[00:32:01] <cmihai> If you really have more than 1 GB of personal files that absolutly need encryption, you must have your snuff films or something. Apart from private info && CC stuff, I've never seen the need to encrypt everything. Sure, it's another thing when you're handling pacient records or whatever so you need to encrypt your backup tapes... but at home?
[00:32:59] <e^ipi> I encrypt all my emails when possible
[00:33:16] <cmihai> people are too lazy to configure PGP && co
[00:33:21] <e^ipi> but like, my music & code & whatever... the hell would I do that for?
[00:33:33] <e^ipi> my code's posted on a public repo anyways usually
[00:35:13] <LuckyLuke> if you are physically near the system during the 10 hours/week of operation you should be able to guarantee physical security. Then you don't need to encrypt swap, just overwrite the swap partition(s) at shutdown.
[00:35:48] <cmihai> (or disable it)
[00:35:53] <e^ipi> overwritten swap means nothing... a suitably determined attacker can grab the bits from between the tracks
[00:35:55] <LuckyLuke> but that won't protect you from big bad guys coming behind your shoulders while the system is on
[00:36:16] <cmihai> Or someone installing a keylogger (hardware). Or cammer.
[00:36:20] <cmihai> Or breaking your legs.
[00:36:23] <e^ipi> or tempest
[00:36:32] <e^ipi> or hardware betrayal
[00:36:36] <LuckyLuke> e^ipi: of course, but you need to be much more determined to get bits from overwritten blocks than to get them from an untouched swap partition.
[00:36:38] <cmihai> Heh, braile serial console!
[00:36:41] <cmihai> No tempest for you!
[00:36:45] <gdamore> there's some new stuff coming here from a major chip vendor on server boards to address this.   watch soon.
[00:37:07] <e^ipi> the DRM chips on intel kit?
[00:37:16] <gdamore> not drm
[00:37:16] <cmihai> Intel :-)
[00:37:20] <e^ipi> OSX uses it to prevent you from running OSX on non-apple hardware
[00:37:22] <cmihai> e^ipi, :-)
[00:37:27] <sommerfeld> TPM?
[00:37:31] <gdamore> no
[00:37:38] <cmihai> Nuts to that, just lock yourself in a faraday cage :-)
[00:37:39] <e^ipi> sommerfeld: whatever
[00:37:53] <gdamore> encryption in the HBA
[00:38:16] <cmihai> Neat.
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[00:38:33] <e^ipi> i'm inclined not to trust closed-source encryption from american companies
[00:38:40] <lloy0076> ERRK
[00:38:41] <LuckyLuke> won't that add lot of latency to disk access?
[00:38:50] <cmihai> And again, there is some pretty neat hardware crypto / compression for tapes.
[00:38:54] <gdamore> i'm inclined not to trust closed source encryption from anywhere else.
[00:38:58] <lloy0076> I have a BrandZ lx zone and build 74 just crashes every time I boot it
[00:39:07] <cmihai> Do you guys remember that crypto tool
[00:39:10] <cmihai> that had a built in key
[00:39:13] <cmihai> from the vendor?
[00:39:15] <e^ipi> clipper
[00:39:18] <cmihai> And the key got out?
[00:39:34] <gdamore> did clipper's key escrow get busted?  bad....
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[00:39:56] <e^ipi> the idea of key escrow in general gives me the heebies...
[00:40:02] <sommerfeld> cmihai: i think that's happened too many times to count.
[00:40:08] <gdamore> key escrow is, usually, a bad idea.  its *always* a bad idea when the key is escrowed to a government agency...
[00:40:12] <LuckyLuke> well, if the key is builtin and you can't get it, how do you do when your HBA burns and you want to access your disks?
[00:40:23] <cmihai> gdamore, in the UK they force you
[00:40:24] <lloy0076> BAD TRAP: type=d (#gp General protection) rp=ffffff00087d1570 addr=ffffff01d13f4
[00:40:24] <lloy0076> 000
[00:40:29] <cmihai> If you have crypto in the UK
[00:40:36] <gdamore> they have voluntary key escrow to a USB flash media.
[00:41:07] <gdamore> there is more to it, but I can't disclose the details right now
[00:41:38] <lloy0076> Anyway, I'll debug it a bit more and come back later. I"m late for work :P
[00:41:51] <e^ipi> i'm still not interested unless it's open source & the algorithm is replaceable
[00:43:25] <cmihai> I'm pretty happy with AES-256
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[00:43:32] <gdamore> it isn't, and it isn't.  but it is AES.
[00:43:41] <cmihai> :-)
[00:44:18] <gdamore> anyone not using AES for symmetric crypto right now is probably nutso.  I've got a pretty good sense that it is solid.
[00:44:32] <e^ipi> then how do we know it's not aes+backdoors ?
[00:44:49] <e^ipi> *shrug*
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[00:44:54] <gdamore> well, you need an open source implementation if you care about that.
[00:45:03] <cmihai> Just get a T9000 or some random crypto card ASIC / FPGA.
[00:45:05] <e^ipi> if you can't replace it, you can't verify it's integrity
[00:45:09] <gdamore> but backdoors would probably have to be intentional.  I don't think AES itself has any backdoors.
[00:45:10] <cmihai> And use some open source implementation.
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[00:45:18] <LuckyLuke> if you don't care you don't need crypto, imho
[00:45:47] <gdamore> there's such a thing as "good enough"
[00:45:52] <e^ipi> gdamore: that's my point... if the HBA vendors added backdoors, you have no way of verifying it
[00:45:58] <cmihai> Any idea on what it uses for pseudo-rng? Any hasing algorythm like SHA or hardware stuff?
[00:46:05] <gdamore> AES is breakable, given a few million years of compute time on current gen hardware...
[00:46:14] <e^ipi> since the algorithm isn't replaceable
[00:46:15] <libkeiser> AES may be "strong". but doing bulk encryption of potentially terabytes of data with the same key for long periods of time makes it waaay more vulnerable than the standard network protocol using AES w/ key rotation
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[00:46:36] <cmihai> libkeiser, you can use a two or three level encryption
[00:46:37] <libkeiser> i hope they're putting a lot of thought into the design
[00:46:44] <cmihai> Add say Twofish to the mix.
[00:46:48] <gdamore> two- or three- level encryption doesn't help.
[00:46:50] <cmihai> That's fast enough to be usable.
[00:46:50] <libkeiser> cmihai: still, that's only a partial solution
[00:46:57] <gdamore> sometimes tricks like that actually *hurt* the crypto
[00:47:03] <libkeiser> yeah, true
[00:47:13] <cmihai> My system can do 40MB/s AES/Twofish without a crypto card.
[00:47:29] <cmihai> 80MB/s for Twofish alone... about 65 for AES.
[00:47:40] <cmihai> So speed shouldn't really be an issue now.
[00:47:43] <gdamore> anyway, if you're using a 256 bit key, then you don't have to worry abot key rotation for a *really* long time.
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[00:48:09] <gdamore> i don't know how many petabytes you have to analyze in order to break AES-256, but its not a small number.
[00:49:05] <cmihai> You can use both AES and TwoFish in 256 bit mode, with separate keys. That's pretty damn unbrakable.
[00:49:06] <LuckyLuke> not to mention you always find a lot of known content on disk drivers (partitiontable, filesystems, etc), and that should help in cryptanalysis
[00:49:49] <cmihai> You could be a realy SO
[00:49:50] <gdamore> i don't know how strong TwoFish is.  It was not selected for the AES standard.  Rijndael got approved.  It has had a bit more concerted effort at finding weaknesses.
[00:49:51] <cmihai> SOB
[00:49:53] <delewis> anyone familiar with the Seagate *FCV disks?
[00:50:01] <cmihai> and use hidden volumes
[00:50:04] <cmihai> Inside an encrypted disk
[00:50:08] <gdamore> layering a weak algorithm on top of a strong one does not improve the strength of the weak algo.
[00:50:11] <cmihai> all the data is randomized, even empty space
[00:50:18] <cmihai> So you can hide a volume inside an encrypted volume.
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[00:50:23] <cmihai> They can't detect it. Ever.
[00:51:08] <e^ipi> unless they've added a backdoor to the HBA encryption features
[00:51:13] <e^ipi> which you'd never know
[00:51:22] <cmihai> And you have a cause for plausible deniability :-). Shit, give'em the keys, what do I care? They're to the outer volume anyway... put some (sort of) "incriminating" evidence there, and you're set. They'll never figure it out.
[00:51:23] <gdamore> if you're paranoid, don't use the hardware HBA.
[00:51:28] <e^ipi> because you're expected to take it as a matter of faith that they haven't
[00:51:35] <cmihai> Yeah, use an OpenSPARC!!!
[00:51:38] <cmihai> :P
[00:51:41] <cmihai> With LinuxBIOS!
[00:51:45] <cmihai> or OBP
[00:51:46] <gdamore> but unless you're a super-wizard-crypto-expert, you have to trust *something* or *someone*
[00:51:49] <e^ipi> just saying...
[00:52:18] <e^ipi> the US hasn't been very good with not spying on their citizens lately
[00:52:21] <gdamore> if it is FIPS approved, then both Canada and the US agree that it is unlikely to have such a backdoor added....
[00:52:46] <e^ipi> the US & canada share spies... CSIS spies on americans, the NSA spies on canadians
[00:52:49] * gdamore hands e^ipi a tinfoil hat
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[00:53:02] <cmihai> heh
[00:53:10] <cmihai> "shared spy distributed systems"
[00:53:12] <e^ipi> i've no reason to trust either of them to do the right thing
[00:53:33] <gdamore> the problem is, do *you* know enough about crypto to know how to evaluate both an algo and an implementation?
[00:53:43] <e^ipi> no, I don't
[00:53:48] <gdamore> so open source doesn't help there.  Its *easy* to submerge a backdoor in open source.
[00:53:50] <e^ipi> but there are people more paranoid than I that do
[00:54:02] <cmihai> gdamore, not a backdoor, but a vulnerability :-)
[00:54:10] <cmihai> Ooops, buffer overflow, didn't see it :-)
[00:54:13] <gdamore> same difference, really.
[00:54:30] <cmihai> Let's learn from the master.
[00:54:39] <cmihai> The compiler backdoor :-)
[00:54:46] <gdamore> exactly.
[00:54:47] <e^ipi> as it stands, the only people that can see the implimentation are people working for a profit-driven company that may or may not be willing to comply with the NSA's wishes if it's in the business interest
[00:54:54] <cmihai> Ken Thomson built a backdoor in login :-)
[00:54:57] <timely_changelog> it's the best
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[00:55:05] <cmihai> And the compiler would insert it every time.
[00:55:07] <timely_changelog> bar none
[00:55:13] <cmihai> And they never cought him, he confessed :-)
[00:55:25] <gdamore> e^ipi: not if it is certified FIPS-140.  Those have to get reviewed by independent labs.
[00:56:35] <gdamore> if you are *really* worried, you shouldn't put your sensitive data where it can be exposed to risks.  encryption is one of those "I think its good enough" propositions.
[00:56:55] <gdamore> never rely on encryption to keep secrets forever...
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[00:58:01] <gdamore> me, I don't think I have anything any government is willing to spend the millions or billions of dollars it would take to crack off-the-shelf AES, and I don't think folks are putting back doors into implementations.
[00:58:26] <cmihai> gdamore, well, it's fact, encryption gets broken. Be it Enigma or WEP, they all have their problems.
[00:58:32] <cmihai> Even with proper implementations...
[00:58:39] <gdamore> (even a backdoor needs a transportation conduiit.  A backdoor to a shed that is behind a 10-foot high wall is pretty secure. :-)
[00:58:50] <cmihai> gdamore, you can really speed things up.. take a look at DES
[00:58:51] <wesolows> I assume no encryption standard that's made public outside the walls of the NSA is allowed to become standard (or even available) unless the NSA knows how to bypass it.
[00:58:54] <gdamore> WEP is a terrible, terrible excuse.
[00:59:02] <cmihai> With custom made FPGA's, you could crack DES in no time.
[00:59:09] <cmihai> Hint: Deep Crack.
[00:59:16] <gdamore> wesolows, not a bad assumption to start with, although I doubt it is actually true.
[00:59:23] <wesolows> If someone comes up with something that's actually secure it gets them a national security letter and a classified designation.
[00:59:26] <cmihai> WEP wasn't bad in theory, but the implementation sucked... weak IVs
[00:59:30] <wesolows> They don't get to sell it or publish it.
[00:59:49] <gdamore> well, AES canddiates were international, so I'm not sure that's true.
[00:59:51] <wesolows> But I'm notoriously paranoid.
[00:59:53] <delewis> wesolows: worse, the NSA has actually classified various cryptographic research done over the years.
[00:59:59] <wesolows> delewis: My point exactly.
[01:00:01] <gdamore> RC4 isn't bad in theory.  WEP is terrible, though
[01:00:09] <cmihai> gdamore, unless it comes from Canada :P
[01:00:36] <e^ipi> feh, I don't trust my government, you shouldn't either
[01:00:39] <wesolows> No, I assume that anything the comes from abroad, instead of a letter and a classified designation, or rendition to a prison in cambodia, they just send the CIA to kill you.
[01:00:47] <cmihai> Anywa,y 10 years ago Deep Crack could crack DES in days.
[01:00:52] <wesolows> Which is why I assume AES is weak.
[01:00:56] <cmihai> You think they don't have a LOT better stuff now?
[01:01:01] <gdamore> But, some of that reseearch isn't necessarily about domestic algos, but techniques like differential and sequential cryptanalysis.
[01:01:29] <gdamore> everyone assumed NSA had neferrious purposes in the 3DES table tweaks.  turns out they just didn't want to give away the details that they were using to break russian ciphers.
[01:01:38] <gdamore> but they didn't want a weak 3DES.
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[01:02:11] <gdamore> and I don't really think NSA wants weak crypto.  they want crypto that nobody *but* the NSA can break.  And failing that, then nobody at all.
[01:02:19] <wesolows> The reason my conspiracy theory doesn't make sense is that it should be possible for someone outside the US to keep a low enough profile to avoid early assassination and then publish a genuinely strong algo worldwide.  The NSA would be powerless to prevent that, and yet it hasn't happened.  So maybe it doesn't need to happen because the existing algos aren't weak.
[01:02:37] <gdamore> wesolows: I agree.
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[01:03:10] <gdamore> I really think the algos are strong as current science can make them.  NSA may be doing some interesting quantum crypto, but that's a different thing entirely.
[01:03:13] <wesolows> I don't agree with your last statement, though - a genuinely uncrackable algorithm would put the NSA out of business.
[01:03:20] <wesolows> It's the thing that makes them wake up screaming in the night.
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[01:03:45] <wesolows> So one assumes, if the algos are strong, that the NSA just has impossibly powerful brute force engines.
[01:03:53] <gdamore> no.  because you need both an uncrackable algorithm, *and* good protocols and security practices.  NSA will never be out of business...
[01:04:00] <wesolows> Your key or passphrase can be only so long.
[01:04:09] <wesolows> True that.
[01:04:24] <cmihai> They can still break your legs... if not your encryption
[01:04:27] <gdamore> anyway, NSA is more than just SIGINT.
[01:04:35] <wesolows> But uncrackable algos do mean that at least in theory they can intercept messages which they will never be able to decode.
[01:04:49] <wesolows> cmihai: That assumes they know who you are.  Often but not always true.
[01:04:59] <wesolows> cmihai: And sometimes impossible to do without an international incident.
[01:05:00] <gdamore> a big part of what NSA cares about is *who is talking*, often they don't care about *what* is being said.
[01:05:06] <cmihai> There are a lot of inference attack vectors mate.
[01:05:19] <wesolows> Yes.  I'm not disputing this.
[01:05:19] <cmihai> Even intercepting an encrypted message tells you something.
[01:05:43] <cmihai> They can figure out two people are talking. The messages come more often - something is going down.
[01:05:54] <gdamore> a worse situation would be an algorithm that was broken by someone other than the NSA.
[01:06:00] <wesolows> which is of course why good security requires regular communication
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[01:06:16] <gdamore> can you imagine if Osama Bin Laden knew the back doors to AES.  Overnight our banking systems would be in shambles.
[01:06:19] <cmihai> Or at least some sort of padding traffic :-)
[01:06:26] <wesolows> yes, they'd hate that as well, but I suspect that if they know who broke it they'll just torture them until they find out how.
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[01:06:36] <cmihai> gdamore, with what, his goat based processing system?
[01:06:55] <timely_changelog> our banking system isn' in shambles?
[01:06:58] <cmihai> He doesn't use CPU's, he makes goats memorize numbers..
[01:07:02] <gdamore> there is big big $$ behind entities like al Qaida.
[01:07:05] <wesolows> cmihai: yes, exactly - every hour I send you an encrypted message containing 8k bytes - most of the time it's the time of day, but sometimes it tells you to kill someone
[01:07:08] <cmihai> Meh
[01:07:21] <cmihai> wesolows, yep :-).
[01:07:42] <delewis> gdamore: rubbish, considering the Bin Laden family has billions still invested in our banks.
[01:07:43] <gdamore> actually, predictable known text creates a *different* problem.  a lot of algos/protocols break when the plaintext is known.
[01:08:16] <delewis> and as for the intentions of the NSA -- I refuse to trust any organization that violates their charter.
[01:08:25] <gdamore> there are a huge number of people, with a lot of money, that would love to see the US banking system blow up.
[01:08:30] <cmihai> gdamore, /dev/urandom | mail :-)
[01:09:40] <delewis> gdamore: given that a citizen can now be declared an enemy combatant and thus, lose their citizenship for a variety of ambiguous reasons, I'd be a lot more worried about your government being able to decypt communications, rather than Osama.
[01:09:41] <gdamore> is *that* why I get so damned much spam? :-)
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[01:10:16] <cmihai> gdamore, that's random _spamming_ not padding gdamore :P
[01:10:16] <gdamore> delewis: nobody has enough interest in decrypting anything I say.  the really, really scary stuff I don't rely on crypto to protect.
[01:10:20] <e^ipi> delewis: i concur.
[01:11:38] <gdamore> crypto is about protecting information *for a period of time*.   if you think its going to stay secret forever, you shouldn't use crypto.
[01:12:14] <gdamore> its also a good idea to assume that large megacorps and first world governments can break all encryption, despite the fact that this is *probably* a false assumption.
[01:12:17] <gdamore> e.g. plan for the worst.
[01:12:52] <cmihai> http://www.copacobana.org/photos/photo_9.jpg - I want one of these :P. 120-way FPGA cracking machine! Can crack DES in a week :-)
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[01:13:04] <gdamore> this means, e.g. if someone breaks the crypto that I'm using to hide NDA materials that are going to go to market in 18 months, its probably good enough.
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[01:13:47] <cmihai> Encryption protects you from target of opportunity attacks.
[01:14:02] <cmihai> Someone stumbles on your data, they have no reason to decrypt it.
[01:14:16] <cmihai> But if you're a target of choice, they WANT to get your data, they will. Simple as that.
[01:14:20] <delewis> gdamore: I'm not arguing that crypto is a permanent defense. The ideal defense would be to communicate over a medium that cannot be surveilled by other parties.
[01:14:23] <gdamore> but, if I want to protect the photos I have of cmihai in various positions with different farm animals forever, then I probably *shouldn't* bother encrypting them, because they shouldn't be on any media that could fall into untrusted locations
[01:14:48] <e^ipi> or should, because that'd be funny
[01:14:49] <delewis> unfortunately, given that the major Internet backbones are owned by US-based telecommunications companies, this is nearly impossible.
[01:14:54] <cmihai> heh
[01:15:20] <gdamore> delewis: isn't that quantum crypto? :-)
[01:16:03] <delewis> gdamore: not necessarily. With quantum crypto you can detect that messages are being intercepted.
[01:16:14] <gdamore> but yes, don't expose data that you *really* really care about to risk, encrypted or not.  crypto is just risk mitigation, not elimination.
[01:16:18] <e^ipi> assuming you only send one copy
[01:16:35] <e^ipi> and transmitting a single subatomic particle for very long is hard
[01:16:36] <cmihai> Oh, great, we haven't even gone to ECC and you quantum.. leap
[01:17:10] <gdamore> ECC is not symmetric.  Its a different form of assymetric crypto.
[01:17:49] <gdamore> IMO, if anything breaks in the next 10 years, it is going to be the assymetric stuff.  I still don't think we have a *really* good understanding of the under-pinnings of the rules we use for assymetric.
[01:18:02] <cmihai> Someone summon Bruce Schneider!
[01:18:22] <gdamore> someone figuring out a fast way to factor products of big primes would be bad.  I'm even less sure how "strong" ECC is, but I don't really claim to understand it.
[01:18:50] <gdamore> Schneider?  I think you mean Schneier.  :-)
[01:19:15] <cmihai> Bah
[01:19:27] <gdamore> anyway, time to go.... latre all.
[01:19:36] <gdamore> later, not to the latrine. :-)
[01:20:05] <cmihai> See ya. Think I should get some sleep too...
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[01:52:59] <pitty> is there a raid manager package for solaris 10. i wanted to attach my a1000
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[02:01:29] <kjetilho> pitty: it is not supported, but I believe people have reported it works when they trick RM into installing
[02:01:34] <coffman> thumperf
[02:01:43] <coffman> is that the new version?
[02:01:56] <pitty> kjethilo: thanks for your input - i appreciate it
[02:02:42] <pitty> sorry: kjetilho
[02:02:42] <kjetilho> in any case -- you don't *need* RM for day-to-day operations
[02:03:01] <kjetilho> when you've configured the RAID, it's just another SCSI disk.
[02:03:06] <pitty> really.. so how can i get to the a1000 software and setup my luns
[02:03:17] <pitty> other than via serial connection
[02:03:50] <kjetilho> I haven't tried it.  search on Google Groups for hints?  specifically in comp.unix.solaris
[02:03:57] <pitty> ok
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[02:04:12] <kjetilho> e.g. one trick is an LD_PRELOAD which makes uname return an older version of the OS
[02:04:25] <kjetilho> I don't remember which trick is needed, though
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[02:04:44] <coffman> so when does we get core2duo steping support?
[02:04:59] <pitty> really.. how do i use ld_preload to return an older version?
[02:05:07] <pitty> just curious
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[02:06:36] <kjetilho> use search for it, you'll find the trivial C program to do it
[02:06:42] <kjetilho> s/use/just/
[02:07:05] <pitty> ok, thx again
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[02:48:30] <dlg> how do i tell smpatch to ignore some patches?
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[02:52:48] <jbk> dlg: very carefully? :)
[02:52:51] <flyingparchment> dlg: use patchadd instead
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[02:53:05] <flyingparchment> (download with `smpatch download` then add them with patchadd)
[02:54:12] <dlg> i dont want to install them
[02:54:19] <dlg> i want smpatch to stop trying to install them
[02:56:30] <flyingparchment> stop using smpatch, use patchadd
[02:56:35] <flyingparchment> then you can choose which you want to install
[02:57:00] <jmcp> dlg: http://www.areca.com.tw/products/pcietosas1680series.htm
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[03:00:38] <jbk> jmcp: nice
[03:01:36] <jmcp> Areca is sending me one
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[03:01:52] <jbk> lucky :)
[03:02:31] <dlg> jmcp: you'll need some cables then
[03:02:53] * jbk would love free hw, not that i have the space for it at the moment
[03:02:58] <jbk> if my house ever sells...
[03:03:09] <dlg> jbk: this is good hardware cos it goes INSIDE other hardware
[03:03:16] <dlg> jmcp: id really like an ARC-1200
[03:03:17] <dlg> theyre so cute
[03:03:45] <andyshack> Morning folks. I've chucked a few old drives from an old A1000 on ebay and some chap is wanting 2 to fit an Enterprise 1. Sureley they arent going to work ? or is it the same powered connector inside the E1 ?
[03:04:22] <jmcp> dlg: indeed I will. good thing that two major electronics superstores are on the way back to my hotel :-)
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[03:05:30] <dlg> can you find some for me too?
[03:05:42] * dlg need an SFF-8087 to 4x sata cable
[03:05:47] <jmcp> I'll see what I can find
[03:05:50] * jmcp makes a shopping list ....
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[03:07:07] <jamesd> andyshack, the same drive, and possibly the same mounting bracket  u1, u2, u30, u60, u80,  e250. e450.  most of the netra line, and  d1000, a1000  all use  sun sca connector,
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[03:07:52] <andyshack> Cheers james. Last bloke i googled and gave info to I totally got it wrong.
[03:08:37] <jamesd> give them the model number off the drive...   and no more.. they have to do the research, unless they paying for  full support...
[03:09:37] <andyshack> Yeah I did that although I feel for him not knowing himself.
[03:11:25] <omnie> :-S
[03:12:11] <jamesd> usually gets the best deal by knowing more than the seller does or at least more than the people i'm bidding against  or i just get lucky ;-)
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[03:15:08] <flyingparchment> awesome, zfs is using 3.7GB ram ;)
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[03:15:51] <andyshack> what's it doing with that ?
[03:15:51] *** ChanServ sets mode: +o nrubsig
[03:15:59] <flyingparchment> caching
[03:16:04] <stevel> viewing porn
[03:16:08] <andyshack> nice
[03:16:15] <Tpenta> 'ello steve
[03:16:21] <stevel> 'evening alan
[03:16:26] <nrubsig> stevel: you're viewing porn ?
[03:16:30] <jbk> hey stevel, Tpenta
[03:16:34] <stevel> hey jbk
[03:16:37] <Tpenta> hey there
[03:16:50] <jmcp> hi Tpenta, hi everybody
[03:16:56] <Tpenta> james
[03:17:06] * nrubsig pokes comay  without hope of getting any anywer... EVER... ;-(
[03:17:11] <stevel> alrighty. i'm heading out. 'nite folks
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[03:17:49] <Chipdancer> hi Tpenta, jmcp :)
[03:18:15] <jmcp> gday gday
[03:18:27] <jamesd> zfs loves cache... and will use all that it can... in the name of speeding data access
[03:18:32] <nrubsig> !seen glynnfoster
[03:18:33] <Drone> I've never seen glynnfoster talk in #opensolaris.
[03:18:45] <nrubsig> Drone: I feared that.
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[03:19:00] <jbk> !seen gman
[03:19:01] <Drone> Gman (Gman!i=gman@nat/sun/x-31c91c39e599a345) was last seen in #opensolaris on Sun 21 Oct 2007 09:03 GMT, saying 'hi'.
[03:19:10] <jamesd> !seen nrubsig_code_in_bash
[03:19:13] <Drone> I've never seen nrubsig_code_in_bash talk in #opensolaris.
[03:19:19] <nrubsig> jamesd: you mean in the name of satan, succubus and the eternal reign of madness
[03:19:22] <jbk> probably recovering from all the travel :)
[03:19:37] <nrubsig> !summon gman
[03:22:38] <omnie> !version omnie
[03:22:45] <omnie> don't work :(
[03:24:20] <nrubsig> !kill kommies
[03:24:25] <nrubsig> er
[03:24:26] <nrubsig> wait
[03:24:33] <nrubsig> that we the 60'ties
[03:24:55] <nrubsig> cold war, presidental shooting, man on moon filmed in studio etc.
[03:25:24] <wesolows> wtf?
[03:26:07] <jmcp> wesolows: I was about to ask the same thing
[03:26:13] <andyshack> pfft kennedy didnt get shot. that was a hoax too.
[03:26:30] <libkeiser> !summon topicality
[03:26:41] <nrubsig> wesolows: from IRC bot commands (!<cmd>) to politics in one sentence... :-)
[03:26:48] <jbk> i had a friend that lived in downtown dallas (originally from winterpeg)
[03:27:29] <jbk> and whenever he'd go to the airport, which would required drivign down main st. to the highway, he'd always see a bunch of people walking around this one bit of downtown
[03:27:40] <jbk> it never dawned on him until someone pointed it out that it was the grassy knoll :)
[03:28:03] <jbk> the big X on the pavement didn't help either apparently
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[03:37:27] <WickedWicky> good morning
[03:37:48] <WickedWicky> 3:30am -> shower -> train -> data center
[03:38:00] <bda> Doom?
[03:38:22] <WickedWicky> no, replacing a network card which has to happpen before 6am
[03:38:28] <WickedWicky> not joking
[03:38:37] <bda> Eh, been there.
[03:38:48] <jamesd> they have trains that run at 3:30am?
[03:38:55] <WickedWicky> no, 4:30am
[03:39:08] <Teltariat> So what do you do for an hour?
[03:39:09] <WickedWicky> it's 3:30 now, so shower, walk to the train, yada
[03:39:13] <andyshack> oh that sounds horrible
[03:39:14] <WickedWicky> shower and coffee?
[03:39:15] <WickedWicky> what else?
[03:39:19] <bda> Trains here lack between midnight and 0500.
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[03:39:43] <bda> My favorite was trying to get a cab out of PHL at 0200 when there was a cabbie strike on.
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[03:39:53] <Teltariat> I take the magic creampuff ferry.  Those run when trains don't.
[03:40:04] <WickedWicky> a cab to the datacenter would a) be impossible right now b) set me back at least 120 euro
[03:40:25] <jbk> expense it?
[03:40:34] <WickedWicky> sure, but I have to advance it first eh
[03:40:43] <WickedWicky> and tomorrow is payday
[03:40:48] <WickedWicky> which means today I am kinda broke
[03:40:48] <WickedWicky> :P
[03:40:54] <bda> Heh.
[03:40:55] <jamesd> WickedWicky, call the boss, tell him you need a ride to the datacenter or he can approve the expense volcher for the cab
[03:40:56] <Teltariat> Join the club.
[03:41:11] <jbk> or get you a corporate card
[03:41:16] <WickedWicky> cabs dont work that way here ;-)
[03:41:29] <WickedWicky> they want cash, right away
[03:41:32] <WickedWicky> ok
[03:41:35] * WickedWicky &
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[03:41:52] <WickedWicky> see you all later, enjoy your days/evenings
[03:43:13] <jbk> amusingly, i finally got my from work about 2 months after i was likely to never need to use it again :)
[03:44:08] <bda> We have a CarShare account but
[03:44:15] <bda> my driver's license is... questionable.
[03:44:22] <bda> CarShare is pretty great, though.
[03:45:53] <jbk> not familiar with that...
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[03:49:26] <bda> jbk: http://www.phillycarshare.org/
[03:50:03] <bda> You schedule a time you need the car, pick one up at a number of lots, gas it up before you return it (there's a card in the car).
[03:50:08] <bda> I have yet to have a bad experience with it.
[03:50:15] <bda> There are several cities with similar ventures.
[03:50:50] <jbk> neta
[03:50:52] <jbk> err neat
[03:51:29] <jbk> i can't see something like that around here unfortunately.. pretty much need a car to do anything
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[03:52:25] <bda> Public transit here is kind of hilarious, but there's sufficient infrastructure that I've only needed a car a handful of times in the last six years.
[03:52:32] <bda> Usually when moving shit. :)
[03:52:43] <bda> It's not like LA, Phoenix, or Atlanta.
[03:52:54] <jbk> or houston :)
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[03:53:02] <bda> Yeah, but I've never lived in Houston. ;)
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[03:53:23] <jbk> it's very spread out :)
[03:53:33] <bda> Yeah, well, Texas.
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[03:53:50] <bda> My folks live in Alburqueue now.. like most desert cities, it's spread out like lichen.
[03:53:55] <nasser> SXCE Build 75 available :)
[03:53:56] <jbk> hehe
[03:54:01] <bda> Low to the ground and goes on for goddamn ever.
[03:54:15] <nasser> change the topic please
[03:54:20] <jbk> yeah, the metropolitan area here apparently is only slightly smaller than maryland
[03:54:31] <bda> ha
[03:56:17] <jbk> it's a bit excessive :)
[03:57:13] <bda> Atlanta was pretty awful in terms of getting anywhere.
[03:57:20] <jbk> i've heard
[03:57:31] <bda> Every other damn street named "Peachtree".
[03:57:55] <Gman_> (there's a bug with 75, text console installs and CDs - probably won't let you get passed CD 1 fwiw)
[03:58:14] <jbk> but only time i was in atlanta was at like 3am in 1993 on a school trip to florida
[03:58:27] <bda> Heh, that's a good time to be in Atlanta. ;P
[03:58:34] <bda> (Briefly, when no one is awake.)
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[03:59:55] <jbk> i managed to avoid going there at my last job after they merged
[04:00:16] <bda> Wise. It sucks.
[04:00:33] <jbk> all the managers (who can't tell a server from an etch-a-sketch) 'had' to go down to examine the datacenter down there
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[04:00:57] <bda> haha. The guy who runs our DC in the city was finishing up one of those tours the last time I was there.
[04:01:20] <bda> "What was that all about?" "Upper mgmt wanted to see their servers."
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[04:01:42] <bda> whoo blinky lights.
[04:01:48] <jbk> yep..
[04:01:59] <jbk> we'd get that on occasion
[04:02:14] <jbk> though no travel involved by upper mgmt (well just across town)
[04:02:32] <bda> I've seriously been thinking about moving out to the Bay Area in a couple years. Assuming I can find a job that won't require my living in a van. :)
[04:02:41] <jbk> that's the key isn't it?
[04:02:44] <bda> Friends of mine have a really nice place in the Castro, but he makes $$.
[04:02:47] <jbk> i've been torn myself
[04:03:15] <jbk> on one hand, much more likely to get an interesting and stimulating job out there than here
[04:03:36] <jbk> but unlikely any salary differential would actually adequately adjust for the cost of living
[04:03:49] <bda> I'm pretty happy with my current job, but I'm starting to hate this city. So.
[04:04:15] <jbk> i like this city, my job is just mind-numbingly boring
[04:04:24] <bda> Always a catch. :)
[04:04:29] <jbk> a junior admin could do what i'm doing
[04:04:46] <bda> I'm lucky.. all of my jobs I've basically had a free hand.
[04:05:11] <bda> I've never really worked in a team, though, which is kind of sucky.
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[04:05:30] <jamesd> so you were the I in team.
[04:05:35] <bda> Indeed.
[04:05:36] <jbk> the bureaucracy here is even worse than my last job, so actually trying to change things is near impossible
[04:05:44] <bda> Heh.
[04:05:46] <jbk> jamesd: or perhaps the 'm' and the 'e' :)
[04:06:08] <bda> I decided last year we should move from Linux to Solaris. So we are.
[04:06:09] <bda> That kind of free hand. :)
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[04:06:16] <jbk> which i guess is alright, it just hurts them, and doesn't impinge on my personal life
[04:06:19] <bda> Of course, it's a small company (seven people, 40 systems).
[04:06:31] <bda> oo. Eight people! We just hired a buddy of mine. :)
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[04:07:08] <jbk> if it did, i'd have an issue
[04:07:40] <jbk> bda: nice
[04:07:43] <bda> The last few weeks, the CEO has taken over project management duties... she's kicking some ass at it, too.
[04:07:48] * bda is already slightly more sane.
[04:07:52] <jbk> any definite positive benefits from it?
[04:08:06] <bda> Getting away from Linux? All the obvious ones.
[04:08:21] <bda> Patching is my big hangup, but that will be solved as we're likely going to be tracking SXCE now.
[04:08:51] <bda> I almost have my Debian lx zones ready so we can migrate shitty hardware to shiny hardware without eating dev time in the short term.
[04:08:51] <jbk> well i mean, something quantative
[04:08:58] <bda> Well.
[04:09:06] <bda> The biggest one is that of paravirtualization.
[04:09:17] <bda> We use a lot of power, for a lot of systems that don't need to be dedicated.
[04:09:23] <jbk> just one thing that always bothers me a bit
[04:09:54] <jbk> is you're always seeing these articles (glorified press releases) 'company X moves to linux (usually from solaris)'
[04:09:57] <jbk> with the usual fluff
[04:10:00] <jbk> now most of hte time
[04:10:03] <bda> shrug.
[04:10:09] <bda> DTrace. ptools.
[04:10:22] <bda> Those two things alone were major pushes for me.
[04:10:23] <jbk> if you actually dig a bit, it's not as much a business case for linux as a business case for keeping your hardware and os current
[04:10:34] <bda> Stack ZFS, SMF, etc, etc. on top of that...
[04:10:52] <bda> No, it's just marketing nonsense.
[04:10:59] <jbk> but it unfortunately works against solaris/opensolaris by reinforcing 'everyone is moving to linux'
[04:11:17] <jbk> which unfortunately, in lots of places, those who make the decisions are swayed more by groupthink than actual facts
[04:12:02] <bda> That is certainly true. :)
[04:12:05] <jbk> executives are often in a completely different world that is incomprehensible and bizzare from those in the real world
[04:12:45] <jbk> i still think at least 50% of the problems in IT can be traced to in-flight magazines :)
[04:12:46] <bda> They read glossy magazines. :)
[04:12:49] <bda> ha
[04:13:06] <bda> Yeah, like I said.. small company. The amount of groupthink is minimal.
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[04:13:20] <jbk> 'we need to stop all other projects and develop a plan for bird flu'
[04:13:38] <jbk> 'we need to replace all our routers and switches with ethernet bridges'
[04:13:42] <bda> haha
[04:13:49] <jbk> (I'm not making these up either)
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[04:13:54] <bda> Haven't run into that madness. :)
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[04:14:09] <bda> The only corporate job I've had was working at Cisco Press... as a Linux admin (total newb; but it was just me).
[04:14:18] <mattimustang> hi, I'm trying to build the latest lsof on S10U4 and it wants a bunch of zfs headers. Is there a way to get the set of headers as they were in that release?
[04:14:21] <bda> And those guys were not insane.
[04:15:14] <Stric> mattimustang: fyi, it works fine with the ones lsof ships
[04:15:18] <jbk> mattimustang: you can _probably_ use a copy from nevada, the problem is figuring out which build
[04:15:45] <jbk> but hard to say for sure
[04:16:04] <mattimustang> Stric: ok i'll try them.
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[04:34:23] <nrubsig> Anyone around to watch the triage queue ?
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[04:36:27] <nrubsig> !seen alanc
[04:36:29] <Drone> alanc (alanc!n=alanc at 192 dot 18.43.225) was last seen in #opensolaris on Sat 13 Oct 2007 11:00 GMT, saying 'there was mail yesterday about the hg repository -> src.opensolaris.org website not updating a bunch of repositories properly'.
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[04:48:50] * dlg want a tape library at home
[04:49:00] <WIckyTrain> who doesnt :P
[04:49:39] <ottom> nrubsig: alan is on vacation until, um, Thursday I think.
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[05:03:38] <auto359> dlg: hey, you here?
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[05:09:29] <WIckyTrain> anyone tried the SUNWlx configuration under SXCE72?
[05:09:32] <WIckyTrain> I am following http://opensolaris.org/os/community/brandz/install/;jsessionid=A5A9B8F8AEE05CACB7B719B50A135777
[05:09:46] <WIckyTrain> but upon commit I get this error: lx_support error: invalid value for zone attribute: kernel-version
[05:13:16] <auto359> re SXDE, if your hardware is *not* on the HCl yet the solaris detection tool passes your system with one failure (pci audio card), should it install?
[05:14:13] <jmcp> yes
[05:14:24] <jmcp> you'll just need to get the OSS drivers instead
[05:14:44] <jmcp> it's not a failure as such, more a relative indication of how much pain you might go through to get a working system :-)
[05:15:13] <auto359> ok, i reboot with the dvd, it just picks up the existing GRUB (winxp/debian) and doesn't boot to dvd
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[05:15:45] <WIckyTrain> is your bios boot order set properly?
[05:16:01] <WIckyTrain> as in, CD-ROM first
[05:16:16] <auto359> pretty sure, will check tho'
[05:16:39] <auto359> if i throw a debian disk or a live linux in, it boots fine
[05:16:51] <WIckyTrain> if it is try if you can mount the DVD in debian, to rule out ISO/DVD corruption
[05:17:00] <auto359> k
[05:17:20] <WIckyTrain> jmcp: how's New Delphi?
[05:17:29] <WIckyTrain> or where was it you were
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[05:18:44] <WIckyTrain> oh, crap, I have to upgrade I see
[05:18:50] <WIckyTrain> http://bugs.opensolaris.org/view_bug.do?bug_id=6598081
[05:19:51] <WIckyTrain> and i have to get out of the train
[05:19:52] <WIckyTrain> ttyl
[05:19:57] <auto359> WIckyTrain: can mount/umount/read the sxde dvd fine
[05:20:03] <jmcp> WickedWicky: Beijing - it's a bit smoky today
[05:20:31] <jbk> bit of a flight :)
[05:22:28] <auto359> reboot, bios
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[05:26:26] <nachox> guys, anyone usingguys, anyone using the latest SXCE ?
[05:26:57] <nachox> it does not even boot here, aparently it cannot find the kernel
[05:27:19] <nachox> there is something fishy about the grub line also
[05:27:51] <nachox> failsafe does boot though
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[05:36:45] <nachox> crap, the known issues link is stuck at b44
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[05:38:56] <nachox> the actual error message is krtld could neither locate not resolve symbols for  /platform/i86pc/kernel/amd64/unix
[05:39:49] <auto359> jmcp: hey, was a BIOS issue, 2 optical drives, only one recognised, now boots into the solaris install, cheers, if this works, i should add this motherboard to the sxde hcl
[05:40:30] <auto359> jmcp: also i went to uq today, saw dlg, he burnt this .iso for me
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[05:41:50] <Tempt> ooh
[05:41:55] <Tempt> T2000 getting delivered here tomorrow.
[05:42:36] <jmcp> neat
[05:42:41] <jmcp> auto359: glad to hear it
[05:42:47] <jmcp> Tempt: stop drooling!
[05:42:58] <auto359> jmcp: reboot, later
[05:42:59] <Tempt> Only for a week, just need to evaluate some stuff
[05:43:11] <Tempt> I'd be more impressed with a Niagara 2 box
[05:43:18] <jmcp> you and me both
[05:43:20] <Tempt> I'm looking forward to getting one of those to play with.
[05:43:47] <Tempt> Say, anyone here dealt with a mob called Xsigo?
[05:43:48] <Tempt> Storage people?
[05:44:26] <nrubsig> Tempt: can I get the T2000 ?
[05:44:41] <Tempt> nrubsig: Sadly, no.
[05:44:52] <nachox> crap, regenerating the bootarchive didnt fix it
[05:45:01] <Tempt> nrubsig: I think if I shipped the company loaner T2000 overseas someone would get angry.
[05:46:08] <jmcp> nachox: what do your grub kernel$ and module$ say?
[05:46:17] <nrubsig> Tempt: hide the shipping costs in the batrang budget!
[05:47:06] <Tempt> It's more the T2000 costs ...
[05:48:13] <nrubsig> Tempt: hide it in that budget, too - you can hide entier batmobiles in it - see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batarang
[05:49:13] <nachox> /platform/i86pc/kernel/$ISADIR/unix and /platform/i86pc/$ISADIR/boot_archive
[05:50:03] <nrubsig> Tpenta: ping!
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[05:51:02] <Tempt> Actually, anyone have a T2000 handy they can log into for me? I need to check something ...
[05:51:12] <LeftWing> Wassat?
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[05:52:24] <jmcp> Tempt: what do you need?
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[05:52:44] <Tempt> Configuring ALOM from inside Solaris
[05:52:55] <Tempt> Is the T2000 ALOM configurable in the same way as other ALOMs?
[05:53:00] <Tempt> (assuming machine not using LDOMs)
[05:53:41] <jmcp> n idea
[05:53:47] <jmcp> don't the docs specify it?
[05:53:54] <Tempt> Nope
[05:54:05] <Tempt> Docs only talk about accessing and configuring via serial
[05:54:16] <jmcp> what sort of commands would you expect to see in Solaris, if the t2k's alom was configurable from inside
[05:54:27] <Tempt> /usr/platform/`uname -i`/sbin/scadm
[05:54:29] <Tempt> or similar
[05:54:40] <Tempt> I mean
[05:54:41] * jmcp checks
[05:54:44] <Tempt> How do you do a password recovery?
[05:55:05] <nachox> those seem to be ok
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[05:55:19] <dlg> auto359: yes
[05:55:33] <jmcp> Tempt: I don't see that command on my handy t2k system
[05:55:55] <rafaeldt> Tempt, what password recovery ? lom or OS ?
[05:56:06] <Tempt> LOM password recovery
[05:56:11] <rafaeldt> okay
[05:57:21] <rafaeldt> just a sec
[05:58:06] <rafaeldt> http://encypher.net/node/2551
[05:58:15] <rafaeldt> Recovering TX000 ALOM Passwords
[05:58:29] <rafaeldt> ;)
[05:58:50] <rafaeldt> you have to reset the alom in the alom boot process
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[05:59:07] <Tempt> rockin'
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[06:03:39] <nrubsig> Tempt: T2000 has a seperate ethernet port for the managment console which can get an IP address via DHCP or a fixed one. You need access the machine once via serial to set it up and then you can connect to that box this way.
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[06:08:32] <Tempt> nrubsig: I know, I was just making sure my configuration procedure included password recovery in case someone has tinkered with it.
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[06:09:55] <nachox> it produces the same error with kernel$ /platform/i86pc/kernel/unix and module$ /platform/i86pc/boot_archive, crap
[06:10:14] <jbk> what error?
[06:11:23] <nachox> krtld could neither locate not resolve symbols for  /platform/i86pc/kernel//unix in the boot archive
[06:11:34] <nachox> err, there is an extra / there
[06:11:55] <nachox> it's krtld could neither locate not resolve symbols for  /platform/i86pc/kernel/unix in the boot archive
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[06:12:56] <jbk> ouch
[06:13:13] <jbk> is it more specific about which symbols?
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[06:13:41] <nachox> no :)
[06:13:54] <nachox> this is a fresh SXCE install btw
[06:14:12] <nachox> and failsafe does boot
[06:14:40] <jbk> does adding -v to the boot flags help any?
[06:15:27] <nachox> nope
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[06:19:14] <nachox> maybe i should just download b75 (this is 74) and wait for the best...
[06:22:05] <jbk> hmm.. i didn't have any issues with b74
[06:22:28] <jbk> of course my upgrade method was rather unsupported :)
[06:23:20] <nachox> i doubt broken media could cause that
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[08:12:55] <ofu> good morning
[08:13:28] <ofu> nv75 isos are ready for download... can somebody please change the topic?
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[08:15:29] <g4lt> oooh, 75 or 75a?
[08:19:13] <ofu> sol-nv-b75a-x86-dvd-iso-*
[08:19:24] <g4lt> ooooh, shiny
[08:20:56] <coffman> some one please fix the headline
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[08:42:29] * trochej suck suck suck
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[08:48:15] <sandipyeware> hi
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[08:51:46] <trochej> Cofeee
[08:51:48] <trochej> weeeee
[08:58:34] <Marv|LG> i want some coffee
[08:58:40] <Marv|LG> only midnight and still working
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[09:01:06] <trochej> It's 9:00 AM
[09:01:09] <trochej> here
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[09:02:28] <auto359> i just booted into sxde, i have no network, tried to use the system tools => network admin but it said i was couldn't due that due to some network magic service. is this normal?
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[09:05:41] <jmcp> kinda
[09:06:04] <jmcp> auto359: you might want to disable svc:/network/physical:nwam
[09:06:13] <jmcp> and then enable svc:/network/physical:default
[09:06:54] <auto359> jmcp: cheers, writing that down, in winxp atm for net ...
[09:07:43] <jmcp> nod
[09:07:51] <jmcp> nwam is network auto magic
[09:07:59] <jmcp> frankly, I'm still not quite sure how it's supposed to work
[09:08:06] <dlg> jmcp: its magic
[09:08:08] <dlg> noone knows
[09:08:14] <auto359> you and me both whiteman
[09:08:19] <auto359> dlg: hi
[09:08:24] <jmcp> disabling it and enabling the network/physical:default allows you to do static configs
[09:08:27] <jmcp> dlg: duh :-)
[09:08:46] <auto359> dlg: booted up fine, just trying to get net/sound sorted, gnome pretty
[09:09:03] <dlg> pfft, sound
[09:09:08] <dlg> :)
[09:10:01] <trochej> sound
[09:10:03] <trochej> heh
[09:10:38] <auto359> is google earth available to unix systems yet?
[09:11:05] <jmcp> only if unix==linux
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[09:12:29] <auto359> jmcp: k
[09:12:48] <Tpenta> brandZ?
[09:13:26] <jmcp> Tpenta: google earth for linux is built on top of wine, and I'm fairly sure that doesn't fly quite right under brandz
[09:13:35] <jmcp> at least, it did not fly right in the past
[09:13:40] <Tpenta> yow
[09:13:41] <auto359> k, no probs
[09:14:15] * Tpenta reboots notebook into b75 and starts looking at playing xen
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[09:15:36] <logic_> Tpenta: i am wondering, did you need to change something in grub for running xen? (or xvm)
[09:15:52] <Tpenta> no idea, i have never touched xen before
[09:16:00] <Tpenta> this is a learning experience for me
[09:16:11] <logic_> Tpenta: ok, cool :)
[09:16:19] <logic_> Tpenta: hope it works than :)
[09:16:23] <Tpenta> :)
[09:16:24] <tsp> can B75 run as domU, or just dom0 under xen?
[09:16:52] <Tpenta> Support Solaris domU, Solaris dom0 on Xen
[09:16:57] <Tpenta> from the xen community
[09:17:02] <auto359> neato
[09:17:02] <Tpenta> on opensolaris.org
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[09:17:46] <auto359> i am a bit confused, when you guys talk about the opensolaris distro you are referring to the community edition aren't you?
[09:18:05] <Tpenta> sxce is one of the distros
[09:18:08] <ofu> nv75 says "Reading ZFS config: done." during boot, so bootable zfs support is included?
[09:18:24] <auto359> Tpenta: k
[09:19:13] <logic_> ofu: that would be nice
[09:19:25] <Tpenta> we have had bootable zfs for a while, that message is about getting zfs imported etc during boot fo rthe other filesystems
[09:20:40] <Marv|LG> oh thanks for reminding
[09:20:46] <Marv|LG> need to reinstall with 75
[09:20:57] <g4lt> zfs boot on sparc is still a pipe dream thoug?
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[09:21:58] <Tpenta> it's being worked on
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[09:22:22] <Marv|LG> i saw some article about someone doing it
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[09:22:29] <ofu> Tpenta: i couldnt find the button to install / to zfs
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[09:22:47] <Tpenta> no that is more complex, we can boot it, but it's more complex to actually install it
[09:23:00] <Tpenta> i believe there is some stuff on the zfs community pages about methods of doing that
[09:25:08] <logic_> Tpenta: in the examples for xvm, on the opensolaris site, i see the grub menu like this: /platform/i86xpv/kernel/$ISADIR/unix instead of /platform/i86pc/kernel/$ISADIR/unix, that why i was wondering if you needed to change this
[09:25:33] <Tpenta> i think there is somethign mentioned in the doco that i am trying to print out from there
[09:26:20] <logic_> Tpenta: you mean this page? http://opensolaris.org/os/community/xen/docs/SetupDom0.htm
[09:30:46] <Tpenta> no I was looking at the developers page, the one you found looks more like what i want
[09:32:06] <logic_> Tpenta: i'm glad i could help :)
[09:32:11] <Tpenta> :)
[09:32:25] <auto359> i just read that brandZ on solaris works fine for linux/google earth ... is this likely to be a sluggish app, given the two extra layers of software?
[09:33:04] <logic_> auto359: i found it workable, but a little slow sometimes
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[09:34:16] <auto359> k, are you able to assign the linux install it's own eth0 as per virtualisation?
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[09:37:32] <auto359> is ok, R'ingTFbrandZM
[09:38:09] * logic_ needed lots of coffee
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[09:38:23] <auto359> logic_: k
[09:38:43] <logic_> auto359: i did a brandz install, and assigned an ip to to the zone, is that want you wanted to know?
[09:38:51] <auto359> yes
[09:39:05] <logic_> auto359: than i did an ssh -X and run earth
[09:39:23] <logic_> auto359: that works, maybe directly Xserver would be faster
[09:39:30] <logic_> auto359: havent tried that yet
[09:39:31] <auto359> hmm, so brandZ can run a version windows ok?
[09:39:48] <logic_> brandz is only for linux versions
[09:39:57] <trygvis> s,linux,unix,
[09:40:04] <trygvis> at least without serious hackery
[09:41:20] <auto359> ah right, so solaris => brandz => linux => wine => g earth ... that's ugly!
[09:42:00] <logic_> auto359: euhm. yes :)
[09:42:21] <logic_> auto359: ask google for a solaris version :P
[09:42:28] <auto359> i will
[09:44:35] <logic_> probably xvm is better to use
[09:44:52] <trygvis> also, google earth runs on linux
[09:45:03] <e^ipi> hmm.. sun's almost at $6 again
[09:45:04] <auto359> logic_: k, googling now ... sorry, i can't use google as a verb, can i?
[09:45:12] <WickedWicky> yes you can
[09:45:21] <logic_> LOL
[09:45:24] <auto359> i thought they didn't want that
[09:45:38] <WickedWicky> googelen is in the dutch dictionairy (to google)
[09:45:48] <WickedWicky> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_%28verb%29
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[09:47:10] <logic_> WickedWicky: strange, vandale.nl doesnt show it in the search :P
[09:49:25] <WickedWicky> that's probably cause the online dictionairy only containts 'hedendaags' dutch, daily-used words
[09:49:51] <nightswim> it is mentioned in the white spelling guide
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[09:49:54] <WickedWicky> it should be in the extended version (dikke van dale)
[09:50:17] <nightswim> the official green one is at the office so I can't check there right now
[09:50:35] <WickedWicky> http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Googelen
[09:51:17] <logic_> WickedWicky: hehe thx
[09:51:46] <WickedWicky> auto359: google complained indeed, since the dictionairy revers to looking stuff up on the internet. Google wants it to be changed to specificly rever to using google
[09:52:00] <auto359> ah k
[09:52:31] <nightswim> luckily, google is not an authority on the dutch language
[09:52:32] <auto359> right, gone, cheers
[09:52:39] <WickedWicky> be good
[09:52:55] <WickedWicky> nightswim: 't zou wat zijn :P
[09:52:58] <trs80> sxce75 is out, someone might want to update the /topic
[09:53:01] <nightswim> idd
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[10:25:37] <e^ipi> trs80: that's steve's job, but he doesn't work for sun anymore
[10:25:41] <e^ipi> so we're screwed...
[10:27:38] <jmcp> any /op can do it
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[10:29:58] <nico> hum
[10:30:32] <nico> I just reported a bug about areca arcmsr driver, what is the traditional way for bugs to be treated ?
[10:30:42] <e^ipi> you put them on b.o.o
[10:30:50] <e^ipi> and then they're lost in the void forever
[10:30:58] <e^ipi> never to be heard of again
[10:31:39] <e^ipi> they may land on someone's email box, where they'll be promptly flagged as spam, and deleted
[10:31:45] <nico> :)
[10:32:13] <e^ipi> it's only funny because of the sad truth that that's actually what happens
[10:32:20] <nico> argh
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[10:35:53] <jmcp> nico: where did you report the bug?
[10:35:56] <jmcp> was it against arcmsr?
[10:36:32] <jmcp> ah, just saw it come through on the triage queue
[10:36:58] <nico> jmcp: on b.o.o
[10:37:14] <jmcp> which version of arcmsr, and do you have a crash dump for it>?
[10:40:34] <jmcp> nico:  6620232 Areca driver fails & brings the whole system off    ?
[10:41:13] <nico> jmcp: yes
[10:41:32] <nico> jmcp: where can I find the crash dump ?
[10:41:43] <jmcp> in /var/crash/`hostname`
[10:41:52] <jmcp> there'll be a unix.* and a vmcore.*
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[10:44:08] <nico> jmcp: I 'm looking for it :)
[10:44:47] <jmcp> did the system reboot?
[10:45:04] <nico> jmcp: nope, it froze
[10:45:15] <jmcp> ah
[10:45:22] <jmcp> that'll make things a bit difficult then
[10:45:29] <jmcp> I assume you did a power-off/power-on cycle?
[10:45:51] <nico> Yes, and I gonna have to do it again, it just crashed
[10:46:12] <jmcp> ok, when you boot it this time, please add "-k" to the kernel$ line in the grub menu
[10:46:13] <nico> looks like it tries to initialize again at reboot
[10:46:33] <nico> jmcp: ok, thanks for the help
[10:46:49] <jmcp> nico: I took ownership of that bug
[10:46:59] <jmcp> I'm working with areca on getting arcmsr integrated into OpenSolaris
[10:47:00] <jteo> woohoo.
[10:47:01] <jteo> ;)
[10:47:05] <jmcp> sssshhhhh
[10:47:10] <jmcp> don't tell everybody though :-)
[10:49:02] <jmcp> nico: when the system hangs again, you should be able to drop to kmdb by hitting "F1" and "A"
[10:49:26] <jmcp> then run      0>rip  [enter]  :c [enter] :c [enter]
[10:49:31] <jmcp> which should force a crash dump
[10:50:08] <nico> jmcp: I'm going to crash it then, it's easy to reproduce
[10:50:40] <jmcp> cool
[10:50:49] <jmcp> you booted with -k on the kernel line?
[10:51:02] <nico> yes, kernel debugger is enabled
[10:51:13] <jmcp> excellent
[10:55:28] <jmcp> another thing that'll make things easier for me is to not only boot with kmdb, but to also enable kmem_flags - add "set kmem_flags=0xf" in /etc/system and update the boot-archive before the next boot
[10:55:35] <jmcp> how long does it take to break?
[10:56:03] <nico> jmcp: depends
[10:56:25] <nico> seems to take a little longer here
[10:56:32] <nico> crashed in 5 minutes last time
[10:56:43] <nico> here we are
[10:56:46] <jmcp> :)
[10:56:54] <nico> starts to hang
[10:56:58] <jmcp> so it's an actual panic then?
[10:57:15] <nico> it starts by slowing down
[10:57:27] <jmcp> ok
[10:57:28] <nico> and then never respond again
[10:57:32] <jmcp> nod
[10:58:09] <nico> often occurs after writing ~10/15Gb of data
[10:58:45] <nico> what is weird is that I have a "standard" crash test for my filer boxes
[10:58:59] <nico> and it passed it easily
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[10:59:16] <nico> got it
[10:59:19] <nico> crashed
[10:59:34] <jmcp> it's quite possible that you're only seeing an iscsi/zfs issue rather than arcmsr ... but the crash dump will help us figure that out
[10:59:38] * jmcp spits on iscsi
[11:00:31] <nico> jmcp: hope it is not that, I switched from freebsd (or trying to) to OpenSolaris to get ZFS+iSCSI :)
[11:00:47] <jmcp> but ..... iscsi .....
[11:00:49] * jmcp shudders
[11:00:52] <jmcp> anyway
[11:01:14] <jmcp> once you're back up, please tar and then gzip the unix.* and vmcore.* files and email me the location where I can download them from
[11:02:30] <dlg> ugh, iscsi
[11:02:40] * dlg agree with jmcp. again.
[11:03:13] <nico> kmdb does not like the "rip" command
[11:03:30] <jmcp> oh, are you running in 32bit or 64bit?
[11:03:31] <ofu> so xVM-Solaris can not be booted in my vmware, sigh
[11:03:38] <jmcp> nico: try    0>eip    instead
[11:03:42] <nico> failed to dereference symbol
[11:03:53] <nico> 64 bits (says the boot)
[11:03:56] <jmcp> hmmm
[11:03:57] <nico> ok
[11:04:23] <jmcp> ok, how about            $<systemdump
[11:04:27] <jmcp> or     $<panicsys
[11:06:07] <jmcp> ok, hometime
[11:07:29] <nico> systemdump does not work but panicsys does
[11:07:40] <nico> it says about its usage (:c)
[11:07:53] <nico> typed :c and it writes W
[11:08:08] <jmcp> it could be   ::systemdump
[11:08:17] <jmcp> not totally sure - haven't had to use that method in a while :)
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[11:08:29] <jmcp> are you sure that      0>rip   didn't work?
[11:08:59] <nico> sure
[11:09:11] <nico> [2]> rip
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[11:09:30] <nico> kmdb: failed to dereference symbol: unknown symbol name
[11:09:35] <nico> oosp
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[11:24:17] <timsf> hi all
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[11:39:39] <trochej> timsf: Hi
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[11:46:26] <timsf> hi torchej
[11:47:09] <timsf> s/or/ro/
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[12:00:10] <hsn_> can i use CDDL library in closed source software?
[12:00:36] <flyingparchment> hsn_: yes, but you have to distribute the source files of the cddl code
[12:00:49] <flyingparchment> i think that question is in the cddl faq
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[12:01:30] <hsn_> great, it is not viral like GPL then
[12:01:46] <flyingparchment> no.  it's file-based, like MPL
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[12:10:20] <trochej> IIRC you can use GPLed library in closed source software, as long as it is dynamically linked
[12:10:33] <flyingparchment> i thought only the lgpl allowed that
[12:10:53] <tfb> flyingparchment: yes, that's what the LGPL is for
[12:10:56] <trochej> HMmm
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[12:11:01] <trochej> Okay, I may be wrong then
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[12:12:10] <hsn_> I hate GPL libraries a lot
[12:13:01] <trochej> I don't. I may however dislake GPL zealots, but then I dislike any zealots
[12:13:08] <trochej> s/lake/like/
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[12:16:32] <timsf> I lake GPL bigots.
[12:16:43] <trochej> timsf: Why?
[12:16:45] <timsf> with bags of stones tied around their feet :-)
[12:16:50] <trochej> Oh
[12:16:51] <trochej> :)
[12:18:43] <Tempt> Excellent idea.
[12:19:07] <trochej> timsf: please, accept or reject my request at linkedin :)
[12:19:56] <sponix> Anyone seen Idiocracy ?
[12:21:41] <Tempt> Yes
[12:21:42] <Tempt> Most amusing.
[12:21:59] <timsf> Will do
[12:22:13] <trochej> idiocracy?
[12:22:16] <trochej> Whastat?
[12:22:21] <Tempt> samovie
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[12:25:00] <trochej> okays
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[12:37:31] <timsf> Anyone know much about NFSv4 ACLs ? I'm messing about with "zfs allow" trying to have a user be able to create filesystems
[12:37:50] <timsf> of course, they also need permissions to create mountpoints - so I thought
[12:38:02] <timsf> chmod A+user:timf:add_subdirectory:allow .
[12:38:06] <timsf> would be enough
[12:38:13] <timsf>  I can create a directory now as timf,
[12:38:18] <timsf> but zfs allow still fails...
[12:39:21] <timsf> ( I mean zfs create, as timf fails)
[12:45:02] <timsf> Oh, I got it.
[12:45:21] <timsf> When you're trying to delegate creation permission on, say, tank
[12:45:31] <timsf> you need to use zfs allow timf create,mount tank
[12:45:43] <timsf> *not* zfs allow -d timf create,mount tank
[12:45:54] <timsf> since that applies to descendents of tank, not tank itself.
[12:46:11] <timsf>  (My thinking was I wanted to create a descendent of tank, hence the -d flag)
[12:46:33] <timsf> I'll stop talking to myself now (or at least do it subvocally!)
[12:46:34] <seanmcg> and I though english grammer was hard
[12:46:55] <timsf> "You're in a maze of twisty ACL man pages, all alike"
[12:47:28] <kjetilho> timsf: I found your monologue interesting :)
[12:47:37] <kjetilho> not quite Tony material, but you can't have it all
[12:47:53] <PerterB> well, if you did then where would you put it?
[12:48:12] <timsf> Tanks!
[12:48:43] <blight> anyone here have any performance stats on x4500?
[12:48:54] <Tempt> fast.
[12:49:04] <blight> anyone using x4500 with Oracle RAC?
[12:49:08] <blight> Tempt: yeah?
[12:49:36] <blight> Tempt: trying to find some offical stats to compare against other vendors
[12:49:44] <blight> Tempt: proving to be tricky
[12:49:48] <hali> x4500 with RAC would be a quite weird setup
[12:50:04] <hali> since RAC more or less require external storage
[12:50:05] <sponix> Any idea how long it will be before the Lustre Clusterfs bits make it into zfs to make it a clustering capable ?
[12:50:43] <trochej> To be honest, any computer with a Rack would be weird. And really, I prefer racks on women
[12:51:39] <sponix> Women, Computers.. Either way Racks are sexy
[12:52:37] <kszwed> unless they're in vegas
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[12:59:58] <blight> hali: I mean x4500 as NAS - NFS to RAC
[13:01:29] <quasi> trochej: women wearing a 42U rack is common in your part of the world? ;)
[13:01:52] <ofu> [x] send pics
[13:01:52] <hali> blight: single point of failure, and the x4500 is an unsupported NAS device... oracle only supports Netapp, EMC and a few select NAS vendors ... but i bet performance would be ace
[13:02:14] <quasi> blight: http://blogs.sun.com/bmseer/tags/x4500
[13:02:25] <ofu> NFS-Performance of Netapp is surely better due to the nvram-card
[13:02:40] <blight> quasi: thanks - saw that
[13:02:50] <blight> hali: good point about support
[13:04:41] <hali> NFS performance from a 3070 will be a lot better yes, but NFS performance from a fas270 will not be better since it has so few spindles (if we compare like for like in cost)
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[13:07:34] <ofu> when will SUN support nvram-devices as micromemory or fusion-io ?
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[13:14:23] <quasi> ofu: when the vendors want it to happen
[13:15:50] <hali> ofu: they did that in 90's
[13:15:55] <hali> prestoserv anyone? :)
[13:16:25] <hali> battery backed NFS cache, fitted in to the RAM slots
[13:16:31] <hali> worked in SS1000 and the likes
[13:18:54] <ofu> oh, i am too young to remember the early 90s in computer business
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[13:22:40] <PerterB> prestoserv cards were ace :)
[13:23:35] <PerterB> This is a bit cheeky of Apple: "Leopard is the first mainstream operating system to completely and seamlessly support both 32-bit and 64-bit applications on the same platform"
[13:23:51] <PerterB> although I suppose if you take it to mean "mainstream *desktop* OS"...
[13:30:20] <ofu> so Vista is not mainstream desktop?
[13:32:22] <PerterB> oh, I have no idea about Windows 64 bit support
[13:32:36] <PerterB> I assumed it was all 32 or all 64 bit, no mix'n'match
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[13:51:32] <quasi> ofu: vista is a choice of either 32bit or 64bit - they don't mix well and are two different versions
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[13:59:06] <jteo> it's a bit of stretch to call osol mainstream.
[14:01:17] <Downix> jteo:  it's more mainstream than Amiga is, so I'd call it at least more widely accepted
[14:01:51] <jteo> true..but still a weak case. ;)
[14:02:00] <Tempt> Solaris is mainstream enough
[14:02:12] <Tempt> and Solaris has been happily combining 32 and 64 bit applications since 7.
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[14:04:29] <Downix> this is fun, I have to now price out the best server solution to manage 3000+ websites.....
[14:05:48] <quasi> Downix: 42
[14:06:05] <Downix> quasi:  nah, it's not that big of a deal.  8)
[14:06:13] <Downix> We don't need to know life, the universe and everything
[14:06:24] <quasi> Downix: it would help
[14:06:35] <jteo> Downix: spending other people's money is a privilege.
[14:06:46] <Downix> indeed
[14:06:57] <Downix> but I am also a cheapskate by nature
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[14:07:09] <WickedWicky> howedy
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[14:07:41] <quasi> Downix: just get a pile of cheap loonix boxes
[14:07:42] <quasi> ;)
[14:07:59] <jteo> Downix: "frugal"
[14:08:18] <Downix> jteo:  better word, thanks.  8)
[14:08:50] <Downix> quasi:  I've run Linux since kernel 1.0.13, I'm very comfortable with it, but I know while it's fine for some solutions, for this, it would be incredibly difficult to manage.
[14:08:51] <WickedWicky> talking 'bout loonix... acording to brandz CentOS 3 should be an 'compatible' distro to install with 'install -d'
[14:09:13] <Downix> WickedWicky, CentOS is just a modified Fedora
[14:09:16] <WickedWicky> I know that
[14:09:20] <gavagai_> loonix, lol
[14:09:21] <Downix> We have it on one of our servers
[14:09:21] <WickedWicky> however
[14:10:13] <WickedWicky> # zoneadm -z lilith-lx install -d /export/downloads/iso/centos/3.9
[14:10:14] <WickedWicky> A ZFS file system has been created for this zone.
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[14:10:21] <WickedWicky> Checking for valid Linux distribution ISO images...
[14:10:21] <WickedWicky> No supported Linux distributions found.
[14:10:46] <WickedWicky> which is fairly odd
[14:11:08] <Downix> quasi:  and if you think Linux users are a bit... odd, you have to hang out on an Amiga channel sometimes.
[14:11:27] <quasi> Downix: I'd rather not
[14:11:37] <WickedWicky> especialy when one reads:
[14:11:38] <WickedWicky> If you intend to install a Linux zone from a standard distribution, whether from CD media or the associated ISO images, please be aware that the lx brand installer currently only supports Red Hat Enterprise Linux 3.x and the equivalent CentOS distributions.
[14:11:47] <Downix> quasi:  smart man.  I used to work for one of the neo-Amiga co's
[14:12:54] <Tempt> fsckin' linux
[14:12:57] <Tempt> GO HOME ALREADY
[14:13:06] <WickedWicky> I need Linux in a zone
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[14:13:22] <WickedWicky> I need it for my virtualization under Solaris concept
[14:13:45] <timsf> Can you just use the centos tarball on the BrandZ web page - that worked for me in the past...
[14:13:50] <Downix> I think I'll pay attention to Wicked here, and I'll need to migrate our CentOS server over.
[14:14:33] <Tempt> SunOS salsa 5.10 Generic_120012-14 i86pc i386 i86pc
[14:14:42] <Tempt> Linux test1 2.4.21 BrandZ fake linux i686 athlon i386 GNU/Linux
[14:15:02] <WickedWicky> Yes
[14:15:03] <WickedWicky> that's cute
[14:15:11] <WickedWicky> and you should go home too, mr Tempt
[14:15:15] <WickedWicky> or sleep at least ;-)
[14:15:22] <Tempt> why?
[14:15:25] <Tempt> only 10.15
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[14:15:34] <WickedWicky> oh
[14:15:48] <jteo> sleep. -sigh-
[14:16:07] <Tempt> although I'm working in the morning early enough, which is awful
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[14:16:20] <cmihai> Heh, today was fun :-)
[14:16:27] <cmihai> I've been to a RHEL conference ;-].
[14:16:39] <cmihai> The guy had a RHEL laptop with OpenOffice...
[14:16:49] <cmihai> OO crashed the OS. Twice. Had to hardware reboot :D
[14:17:17] <cmihai> Next guy just used his MacOS lappy :-)
[14:17:36] <jteo> wtf.
[14:17:55] <Downix> cmihai:  that's very odd.  I've run Linux on my laptop for years w/o a crash.
[14:18:33] <cmihai> Downix, well, I think it was just OO that froze and the guy didn't know about Ctrl Alt Backspace to kill X or Ctrl Alt F1 to drop to a console or whatever :-).
[14:18:47] <Tempt> I hate to admit it, but I improved productivity by ditching Ubuntu off my craptop and reinstalling Windows.
[14:18:52] <cmihai> But trust me, Linux does crash hehe.
[14:18:56] <Downix> cmihai:  Oh bother.  (then again, I don't run X unless I need to)
[14:19:11] <Downix> cmihai:  oh, I know it does, just saying, haven't on my laptop.
[14:19:36] <cmihai> We laso had the Wienux guy...
[14:20:00] <cmihai> You know, when Vienna migrated from FreeBSD to Linux and everyone made a case on how Linux rules ;-).
[14:20:04] <tfb> cmihai: for a desktop / laptop if you have to kill the GUI you might as well just bounce the box.  The GUI must never die.
[14:20:17] <Downix> cmihai:  oy.  My attitude is, "If you need windows apps, run windows".  But then again, my game runs better under Wine than under Windows itself, try and figure that one out.
[14:20:20] <jteo> i actually know a guy in Redhat. He seem sure that systemtap would whup dtrace.
[14:20:28] <Tempt> yep
[14:20:29] <jteo> *seemed.
[14:20:30] <cmihai> Heh
[14:20:32] <Tempt> the cult of the penguin
[14:20:37] <Tempt> can't beat cults for ensuring stupid thinking
[14:20:41] <Tempt> see also: scientology
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[14:20:50] <jteo> we're cultish sometimes too.
[14:20:51] <jteo> :P
[14:21:00] <flyingparchment> yes, dtrace has been in production since 2005, systemtap hasn't even been released yet.  clearly systemtap is the superior technology.
[14:21:03] <cmihai> Turns out their Linux migration took like 8 years, and it's mostly just OpenOffice installed on some stations along side MS Office :-)
[14:21:44] <cmihai> And their Linux servers run SIMH VAX emulation to run VMS :P. It's usually a lot different from what you hear on slashdot.
[14:22:11] <cmihai> Sure, they run a lot of GNU, but it's not the fabulous migration distrowatch and slashdot make of it.
[14:22:12] <Downix> jteo:  All OS"s have their cult of personality around them.
[14:22:30] <jteo> Downix: true.
[14:22:42] <Tempt> Of course not.
[14:22:54] <Tempt> Typically big Linux conversion stories are just customers pushing their existing vendors for a price break
[14:23:21] <Downix> Tempt:  big windows conversion stories are often times the same thing
[14:24:02] <cmihai> It was pretty fun though.
[14:24:14] <cmihai> The RHEL blokes bashed a Microsoft guy attending at the conference until he left ;-)
[14:24:33] <Downix> cmihai:  ok, now that's bad cricket in my book.
[14:24:44] <cmihai> Downix, yep, they were quite rude.
[14:25:29] <cmihai> "What has Microsoft done for the software industry in the last 5 years? Nothing. But redhat... oh, look, MS guy bla bla". Really rude.
[14:25:34] <jteo> that's rude.
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[14:25:51] <cmihai> "If you want to talk to us, do it outside so the MS guy won't hear us"
[14:25:54] <Tempt> sad
[14:25:55] <jteo> wtf.
[14:26:04] <jteo> how old are these dudes? 12?
[14:26:08] <WickedWicky> 10
[14:26:13] <Tempt> Like Dead Rat's been innovating much lately.
[14:26:17] <Downix> I've seen much the same from Microsoft vendors in the past as well.
[14:26:28] <Downix> It's sad on all fronts
[14:26:37] <cmihai> jteo, sadly, more like 50
[14:27:02] <cmihai> They had some Solaris bashing too :-)
[14:27:39] <cmihai> How Solaris 10 cost Sun 500 million vs. RHEL 5 costing RedHat like 30 million, and how RHEL being open source is better, a better development model to trust and how Sun fears the competition :-)
[14:27:41] <jteo> ...
[14:27:53] <jteo> huh?
[14:28:07] <Tempt> So RH brag about spending less on R&D
[14:28:08] <Tempt> interesting.
[14:28:11] <cmihai> And how Solaris took 3 years to be developed
[14:28:20] <cmihai> Compared to only 18-24 months for RedHat releases
[14:28:36] <cmihai> Tempt, they also bragged about how they didn't make 90% of the stuff they sold :P
[14:28:47] <Tempt> classy.
[14:28:55] <cmihai> And that they use the comunity for that.
[14:29:06] <cmihai> Erm, leverage.
[14:29:12] <Tempt> "We bet our business on the gullibility of chumps"
[14:29:30] <jteo> dumb qns: can we do migration of xVM VMs today?
[14:29:33] <Downix> Tempt: wouldn't be the first, nor the last, nor even the most successful.
[14:30:15] <Downix> Tempt:  I think it was PT Barnum who said it best, there's a sucker born every minute.
[14:31:30] <cmihai> It was fun though. How RedHat had a business model that used software from everyone (IBM, Novell, HP etc), then competed with them and how they all feared their business model :-) (eg: Sun).
[14:31:50] * quasi wonders if deadrat put marc fleury in charge of their bragging^Wmarketing
[14:32:35] <flyingparchment> cmihai: so their business model depends on competing with their suppliers?
[14:32:42] <cmihai> I guess.
[14:32:54] <jteo> woohoo
[14:32:58] <jteo> sounds like MSFT.
[14:33:09] <sponix> That guy from MS .. Ballmer I think it is... Now he can really say some stupid shit
[14:33:16] <Downix> jteo:  I was just thinking that!  Out of my head, I charge rent for that!
[14:33:30] <cmihai> sponix, and throw stuff :P
[14:33:34] <cmihai> And spit.
[14:33:39] <cmihai> (don't sit in the first row)
[14:34:10] <Downix> cmihai:  Going to a Ballmer lecture is about the same as sitting front row for Shami
[14:34:13] <Downix> Shamu even
[14:34:18] <quasi> sponix: you're thinking the "developers, developers,..." dance on stage?
[14:34:21] <jteo> jeez...pkg-discuss is hard to follow.
[14:34:31] <cmihai> quasi, or the Windows 2.0 commercial :-)
[14:35:06] <sponix> quasi, any of it.. the guy is just so out of it its a riot
[14:35:33] <sponix> quasi, he calls opensource a cancer one second, and then talks about how great it is that MS has an open source portal in the same sentence
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[14:35:56] <sponix> cmihai, omfg -- that win2.0 commercial is off the hook, do you have it ?
[14:36:01] <quasi> sponix: well, I'm sure they just haven't quite found the right dose for his meds
[14:36:13] <jteo> the horrifying truth is that many PHBs believe such talk.
[14:36:15] <Downix> the smart one in Microsoft was Paul Allen
[14:36:18] <sponix> comparing windows with Miami Vice !
[14:36:23] <Downix> jteo:  PHB?
[14:36:32] <The-spiki> Paul is not in MS anymore?
[14:36:45] <The-spiki> or he is dead?
[14:36:46] <jteo> Downix: Pointy Haired Boss
[14:36:54] <quasi> jteo: like the bit from last week about m$ being responsible for half the it jobs
[14:36:57] <cmihai> sponix, it's on youtube, type "balmer" ;-)
[14:36:58] <quasi> ?
[14:37:03] <Downix> The-spiki:  He's off with his own projects.  He was the backer behind Transmeta, for instance.
[14:37:04] <jteo> Paul Allen went off to do his own stuff with his billions.
[14:37:06] <Downix> jteo:  ah!
[14:37:12] <The-spiki> nah... sponix type "monkey boy"
[14:37:15] <Cyrille> and get some more in the process
[14:37:26] <cmihai> jteo, more like pushed aside.
[14:37:40] * WickedWicky is listening to Nelly Furtado
[14:37:43] <The-spiki> Downix: i know... Didn't heard he left MS...
[14:37:50] <cmihai> Log time ago
[14:38:14] <Downix> The-spiki, Ages ago, like pre-IBM divorce
[14:38:17] <The-spiki> btw, i did see his boat/yacht... it was the biggest in the world at that time...
[14:38:18] <jteo> cmihai: least he's rich.
[14:38:36] <cmihai> But has cancer.
[14:38:40] <cmihai> So what's the point?
[14:38:42] <Downix> The-spiki, I did too, just before my boss at the time threw a fit that it was longer than his and ordered himself a new one.
[14:38:48] <flyingparchment> so i'm using web server without support, and two web server developers on the forums are working on my issue, with a 5 minute response time... who needs support ;)
[14:39:00] <cmihai> Microsoft pushed him aside while he was sick.
[14:39:26] <Vanuatoo> Is there any command to update SFE package?
[14:39:50] <The-spiki> you guys are right. wikipedia says he left in 2000. I somehow missed that info
[14:40:02] <Vanuatoo> For example, I've installed SFEgraveman with pkgtool build --download SFEgraveman.spec command
[14:40:15] <Vanuatoo> after I issued svn update spec file has been update
[14:40:18] <jteo> intriguing meaningless life question: is getting cancer worth billions?
[14:40:20] <jteo> mmm..
[14:40:43] <Vanuatoo> I want to update my graveman installation. What command Should I issue?
[14:41:12] <cmihai> jteo, meh, sure :-)
[14:41:18] <cmihai> Might as well get something for it.
[14:41:19] <The-spiki> Downix: that's nice if you are invited to parties hosted by, hm, hug hefner
[14:41:20] <The-spiki> :)
[14:41:25] <cmihai> Better than getting cancer for free :P
[14:41:44] <cmihai> Besides, he was rich enough to afford a bone marrow transplant.
[14:42:39] <cmihai> Anyway, from the stories I've read (not sure if true) when he got sick, they were already planning on how to get hold of his shares and push him aside.
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[14:43:21] <Cyrille> did you read that on wikipedia, preceded with some weasel words like "some say he was..."? ;-)
[14:43:32] <cmihai> Nope
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[14:44:11] <The-spiki> nah... btw, cmihai, nice blog etc... but you could make/use template that is rendered better when text size is increased (probably absolute table/divs)... now i have to read it in opera (that has actual zoom)
[14:44:23] <Downix> cmihai:  then again, I'm someone that does not like scheming and plotting.  I got tired of that when I worked for Genesi.
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[14:45:18] <cmihai> The-spiki, sort of tried, I'll have to write on myself when I have the time. To be honest, I use Opera myself, and it zooms OK.
[14:45:29] <cmihai> It's only weird in firefox.
[14:45:57] <cmihai> (that only increases the font size)
[14:46:01] <cmihai> The-spiki, just use RSS or Atom :P.
[14:46:18] <The-spiki> i prefer ff... but fire up opera for sites that don't look good in ff (when i increase the size)
[14:47:20] <The-spiki> cmihai: ofcourse... i added it to my reader, but i'm also reading older posts from archive... you have some interesting articles...
[14:47:27] <cmihai> Thanks :-)
[14:47:45] <cmihai> Well, I'll add a new template on my TODO list :-)
[14:48:09] <Downix> Hmm, is Ubuntu one of the options for hosted OS's on top of Solaris?
[14:48:53] * tsp is about to install ubuntu on his real box and run solaris under it, if it works
[14:48:56] <cmihai> I take it you mean BrandZ, lxrun branded zones. You're supposed to use, RHEL 3. But technically, anything with a 2.4 kernel. People can run stuff like Debina Sarge without problems.
[14:49:08] <cmihai> Or you could use qemu.
[14:49:24] <trochej> Or xVM?
[14:49:27] <tsp> xvm is in 75, so that can be used as well
[14:49:39] <cmihai> Or do you mean LDOMs?
[14:49:49] <Downix> I honestly don't know the difference
[14:49:50] <cmihai> tsp, yeah, but that supports pretty much any OS :-)
[14:50:09] <cmihai> Downix, XEN, Containers or QEMU? Or do you have a SPARC (LDOMS)?
[14:52:15] <tsp> right now I'm looking for a stable platform I can run windows on top of without using the metal; I don't care if I have to reboot windows, but I shouldn't have to reboot my box
[14:53:00] <tsp> I have an ultra5 just acting as my pretty much main workstation for emails and such just because of windows's instability
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[14:53:44] <Downix> cmihai:  I don't have a SPARC yet, planning on within a year.
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[14:54:02] <cmihai> You have the following options available: VMware Server (free, works on Linux or Windows hosts). Qemu + KQEMU (will work on Solaris) + variations (Win4Sun, Win4Lin, Win4BSD). VirtualPC (Windows only), VirtualBOX (Linux, Windows) or Xen. The other options aren't worth the trouble (performance wise). You could also run it on another server and use Terminal Services.
[14:54:52] <cmihai> To be honest, VMware is your best bet. Just use a VMware server machine for all your virtual machines and some "dumb" terminal (well, not so dumb, but any old laptop will do) to RDP / VNC in :-).
[14:55:57] <cmihai> If you have a VT / Pacifica machine you could also use Xen.
[14:56:35] <Downix> my main concern then becomes, can I migrate existing machines to it, or will it have to be all new installs
[14:56:41] <cmihai> Yes.
[14:56:44] <cmihai> You can.
[14:57:06] <tsp> I'll experiment with vmware server and see how it performs, I can probably take some of the load off by running the client on another box
[14:57:14] <cmihai> You can use Microsoft Sysprep + ntbackup + restore + repair.
[14:57:28] <cmihai> Or you can use VMware machine migration toolkit (it's basically sysprep based)
[14:57:36] <cmihai> Or you can just dd | gzip | nc and virtualize it
[14:57:50] <cmihai> You can use LiveView to do that.
[14:58:04] <cmihai> Or you can convert existing virtual machines into VMware.
[14:58:43] <Downix> cmihai:  Ok.  I have 4 linux machines I'd like to migrate to a Solaris ZFS blade setup, in time
[14:58:50] <cmihai> that's easy.
[14:59:30] <cmihai> You basically want to use VMware server running on RHEL mounting a Solaris ZFS disk right? To benefit from ZFS compression, and use something like NIC bonding (aggr)?
[14:59:35] <cmihai> Or maybe iSCSI (no compression)
[14:59:54] <cmihai> Oh, wait, you're not the VMware guy :P
[15:00:07] <cmihai> I feel silly now.
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[15:03:20] <Downix> cmihai:  right.
[15:03:21] <holcomb> is there an example menu.lst somewhere for b75?  i liveupgraded and didn't get an xvm entry
[15:03:28] <Downix> cmihai:  and no I'm not
[15:03:43] <tsp> I'm letting a perfectly good box go to waste for just skype, a screen reader and a terminal - the first two which are massive performance hogs, but vmware's audio output isn't the best
[15:03:56] <Downix> cmihai:  what i'm trying to do is migrate 3 RHEL and 1 CentOS servers onto a single setup
[15:04:34] <flyingparchment> Downix: why don't you migrate your app directly to solaris?
[15:04:39] <logic_> holcomb: maybe this page? http://opensolaris.org/os/community/xen/docs/SetupDom0.htm
[15:05:01] <holcomb> sweet
[15:05:02] <holcomb> thanks
[15:05:20] <logic_> holcomb: no prob, havent got time yet to test, please let me know if it works :)
[15:06:50] <Downix> flyingparchment, Solaris does not have several bits needed, sad to say
[15:07:01] <flyingparchment> Downix: which, just out of interest?
[15:07:02] <seanmcg> holcomb: if you liveupgraded, then the real menu.lst may live on the other boot-env
[15:07:07] <Downix> flyingparchment, The big one is PLesk
[15:07:13] <flyingparchment> ick
[15:07:36] <Downix> flyingparchment, Decided long before I ever joined up
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[15:11:53] <holcomb> logic_: came back from a reboot with the correct kernel, etc
[15:12:33] <holcomb> (XEN) AMD SVM Extension is enabled for cpu 0.
[15:12:36] <holcomb> bonus!
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[15:13:03] <jteo> w00t.
[15:13:45] <logic_> holcomb: ok , cool , thanx for telling :) i will try this tonight
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[15:16:52] <Downix> flyingparchment, Now, new sites we'll do something else.  But we need it for the existing ones
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[15:36:33] <Downix> does anyone have familiarity with Blade servers?
[15:36:45] <seanmcg> some...
[15:37:09] <flyingparchment> we looked at blades, found they're more expensive than regular rack servers, and ignored them ;)
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[15:38:04] <Downix> I'm trying to price out if they're worth the investment for us
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[15:38:21] <Downix> doesn't help that there's no hard #'s on how much machine we'd need for the quantity of sites we have
[15:38:22] <blight> Downix: we were forced to go with them due to cooling/power
[15:38:33] <nachox> morning
[15:39:03] <Downix> blight:  that's one area we're considering on it.
[15:39:20] <tsp> Is there a program I can use to get just the text of tcp sessions that are going to/from my box, without packet headers, timestamps etc?
[15:39:21] <blight> Downix: not convinced if they are as reliable though - RAM seems to freek out quite a bit - not sure if it's heating or what
[15:39:28] <blight> Downix: HPs btw
[15:39:29] <flyingparchment> hmm, we had the opposite problem - provisioning enough power for high-density blades was going to be difficult
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[15:39:47] <tsp> I'm limited to the console so tools like wireshark won't work
[15:40:01] <Downix> doesn't help that we don't know how much computing power we'll need
[15:40:13] <Downix> running 3000 websites w/ databases is new to me
[15:40:59] <blight> Downix: hmm and the exepcted traffic to these sites? (I guess to work out an ave of sites/blade)
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[15:41:33] <Downix> blight:  the target is for each site to handle 400-500 users a day, but initially only 400 sites will be getting that traffic
[15:41:40] <Downix> so, need a solution that can scale upwards
[15:42:00] <flyingparchment> Downix: got any figures on reqs/sec, tps, iops etc?
[15:42:07] <flyingparchment> that's more useful than 'users/day' :)
[15:42:20] <Downix> not on-hand, but I can get them, one second
[15:44:04] <Downix> I have GB requests... man I hate PLesk
[15:45:30] <Downix> let me check another place
[15:46:06] <flyingparchment> hm.. swap -lh didn't go into s10u4 :(
[15:48:19] <Downix> all I have is Webalizer's stats
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[15:49:25] <Downix> I average 13,500 hits/day, so that's approx 9 hits a minute
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[15:51:14] <Downix> pretty low traffic I know
[15:51:20] <Downix> but multiplied over 3000 sites.....
[15:51:23] <blight> I think you should probably consider what's your max at busiest time of day, what's lowest at low point in the day
[15:51:54] <Downix> blight: I'd love to, my setup doesn't show me that tho which sucks
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[15:52:56] <Downix> I know which days are busiest, but that's about it
[15:53:59] <blight> Downix: large amounts of data transfer? or just lots of small reqs?
[15:54:07] <jteo> i presume you need to plan for expandability?
[15:54:08] <Downix> lots of small req's
[15:54:12] <Downix> jteo:  right.
[15:54:27] <Downix> the average req size is 300kb
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[15:56:40] <jteo> blade servers lock you in to a particular vendor. sunk costs and all.
[15:56:49] <jteo> are you space constrained?
[15:56:58] <Downix> Yes, sadly
[15:57:09] <Downix> have to make everything fit into a 7x10' space
[15:57:18] <jteo> ah.
[15:57:21] <Downix> which is a lot more than I've worked with before
[15:57:30] <flyingparchment> Downix: 300KB?  what sort of content do you host?
[15:57:52] <jteo> gotta get some figures on your load-average first, then you can figure out how many boxes you can collapse via virtualization.
[15:58:08] <Downix> flyingparchment, most of that is the gfx.  I can't say exactly what, but it's mostly text documents w/ accompanying graphics.
[15:58:23] <Downix> jteo:  ok.  Let me see if there's a way to do that
[15:59:53] <axisys> i had to rebbot -- -r the 490 to see the newly created attached lun on 6140. the devfsadm -cv did not work.. is that normal?
[16:00:18] <axisys> this is on sol 10 u3
[16:00:49] <Downix> this "reports" is absolute junk.  The smallest segment I can get is daily
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[16:01:44] <quasi> axisys: you can get the fc to check for new luns, but I'll just let you read the manpages instead
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[16:02:41] <axisys> quasi: man fc you mean?
[16:02:49] <quasi> hardly
[16:03:20] <axisys> quasi: is that a 3DES of the actual answer :P
[16:03:53] <Downix> ok, rather than keep hitting my head like this
[16:04:06] <Downix> any suggestions for alternate methods of finding out traffic?
[16:04:26] <quasi> axisys: no, but s10u3 support is closed today
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[16:04:37] <axisys> quasi: lol
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[16:07:38] <Downix> wait, got it!
[16:08:34] <Downix> our busiest hour on our busiest day for the past year was 1289 hits with 29652KB
[16:08:50] <Downix> on a single site
[16:09:01] <blight> Downix:  that's not very much
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[16:09:29] <blight> I remember hosting a large retails site, 5TB of data transfer a month on a P2-800 with 1GB ram
[16:09:33] <Downix> blight:  I know, but multiplied by a potential 3000 sites...
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[16:09:40] <blight> Downix: for sure
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[16:09:56] <quasi> Downix: fine if it is just serving files, could be a really bad problem if it is all php
[16:10:01] <jteo> yup. -sigh-
[16:10:02] <Downix> quasi:  it is.
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[16:10:25] <nico> jmcp: around ?
[16:10:26] <blight> quasi: does php do any caching?
[16:10:36] <Downix> quasi:  Now you see why I'm nervous about how much machine I'd need.
[16:10:39] <quasi> blight: not by itself
[16:10:50] <blight> quasi: ah
[16:11:07] <quasi> Downix: sure, any customer writing a stoopid script can bring down the server
[16:11:26] <Downix> quasi:  thankfully our customers don't write the scripts.
[16:11:39] <quasi> Downix: I suppose that helps
[16:11:45] <Downix> but still, huge overhead
[16:11:55] <quasi> Downix: yes
[16:13:21] <quasi> Downix: I think the best design is one that is flexible enough that you can expand resources as needed is the best choice
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[16:13:28] <Downix> That was my thinking
[16:13:37] <quasi> Downix: think many frontends that can serve the same content
[16:13:41] <Downix> but weither that means a blade or just rack, and which blade/rack is the challenge.
[16:13:52] <quasi> Downix: that way you get a bit of redundancy as well
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[16:14:01] <Downix> *nods*
[16:14:02] <jmcp> nico: I think I'm here, but not totally sure - the net access in this place is annoying
[16:14:29] <Downix> I've inherited a minefield that could turn into a nightmare, and the boss is oblivious
[16:14:36] <Downix> and I'd like to keep him oblivious
[16:15:15] <quasi> Downix: always multiply your figures with pi - that leaves a bit of headroom for surprises
[16:15:27] <Downix> quasi:  heh.  I just always triple my #'s.
[16:15:39] <jmcp> axisys: I would have expected you to be able to see the new target on your v490 by using "cfgadm -lav -o show_SCSI_lun" or "cfgadm -alv -o show_FCP_dev" or something similar
[16:15:43] <jmcp> nico: progress?
[16:15:48] <Downix> and this is on top of having to price out the workstations for the art and editorial departments for the next year
[16:16:05] <quasi> Downix: well, I usually do pi and expect the project manager to double the figure
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[16:17:05] <jmcp> too tired
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[16:18:11] <Downix> quasi:  sounds right.  Any good place to look up CPU/bandwidth usage to compare to our options?  (I'll admit a preference for a SPARC solution, admittedly)
[16:18:28] <quasi> +1 on tired - this not drinking coffee bit is not working out too well
[16:18:58] <quasi> Downix: ehrm, blogs.sun.com/bmseer
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[16:19:34] <quasi> Downix: the only sparcs that make sense in your type of setup is probably T2s
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[16:19:41] <e^ipi> not drinking coffee? ye gads
[16:19:43] <e^ipi> why?
[16:19:51] <sickness> coffee++
[16:20:10] <quasi> (well, T1 also, but those make no sense with the T2 out at roughly the same price)
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[16:20:25] <Downix> quasi:  *nods*  I was figuring on having a mix of SPARC and x86.
[16:20:41] <e^ipi> coffee's full of health benefits. there's no reason not to drink it
[16:21:02] <quasi> e^ipi: trying to get my stomach back in order - 3 days of not being unable the do much because of the pain made me reconsider the daily intake
[16:21:20] <jteo> the T2s make good sense.
[16:21:28] <quasi> jteo: agreed
[16:21:31] <Downix> quasi:  our current setups are all P4's and Xeons, for example.
[16:21:40] <jteo> plus cheap jbods for storage...
[16:21:43] <Downix> jteo:  Agreed.
[16:21:46] <Downix> jbods?
[16:21:51] <quasi> jteo: but they all but made the T1s a bad joke
[16:21:53] <flyingparchment> jbod = box with disks on, no raid
[16:21:58] <jteo> quasi: early adopter tax
[16:22:00] <jteo> :P
[16:22:28] <quasi> jteo: maybe if we complain, we can get $100 gift certificates like the apple fanboys ;)
[16:23:05] <jteo> quasi: yes. i think that's just enough for a SPUD bracket.
[16:23:29] <ofu> hmmm, T2 with cheap jbods?
[16:23:36] <axisys> jmcp: wwhat would that give me? i still need to create the device link and boot -r gave me that
[16:23:40] <ofu> never tried zfs on sun4v
[16:23:55] <quasi> ofu: t5220 has room for 8 internal 2.5" SAS
[16:24:19] <Downix> well, what would a t5220 handle?
[16:24:22] <ofu> yes, but thats 1TByte brutto max
[16:24:23] <flyingparchment> quasi: 1 or 2 RU?
[16:24:28] <quasi> flyingparchment: 2U
[16:24:29] <sickness> brutto? :)
[16:24:46] <quasi> flyingparchment: the 1U t5120 fits 4 drives
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[16:25:06] <elektronkind>  holy crap, AAPL is up $11 already
[16:25:30] <Downix> elektronkind, what was the news to cause the jump?
[16:25:34] <kjetilho> what happened today?
[16:25:38] <quasi> ofu: not too shabby in 2U with 8cores and a couple of 10G nics
[16:26:02] <jteo> Downix: record profits for 4Q.
[16:26:03] <e^ipi> market opened & leopard's out in a few days?
[16:26:08] <Downix> jteo:  nice
[16:26:12] <e^ipi> or that
[16:26:13] * ofu just sent back a 5120
[16:26:23] <Downix> ofu:  what was the matter?
[16:26:30] <elektronkind> Downix: Q4 financial results for apple put them at a $902M profit for the quarter
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[16:26:32] <quasi> flogging >1mill iphones perhaps?
[16:26:33] <ofu> was an evaluation unit
[16:26:40] <jteo> quasi: yup
[16:26:45] <Downix> ok
[16:26:52] <Downix> elektronkind, Not bad at all
[16:27:04] <Downix> Hmm
[16:27:10] <flyingparchment> hmm, might do a free trial of the T5120
[16:27:11] <ceri> ofu: They collected it? How'd you manage that?  I have two thumpers downstairs I've been trying to send back since August
[16:27:14] <Downix> any idea how to figure out site-overhead?
[16:27:37] <elektronkind> Downix: yeah, a year ago for the same quarter it was $542M profit
[16:27:47] <elektronkind> so this is quite a jump for a year
[16:27:58] <ofu> ceri: they just told me an address to send the system, so i did
[16:28:25] <ceri> ofu: I should try that.  Been dealing with their couriers instead.
[16:28:52] <quasi> ceri: just ship them to me, I'll gladly take them off your hands ;)
[16:29:12] <ceri> quasi: just the thing; I could have been using them for the last 3 months... ;(
[16:29:21] <ofu> you can never have too many thumpers
[16:29:26] <jteo> agreed.
[16:29:36] <ceri> Depends if they're in a box in your goods inwards
[16:29:47] <elektronkind> ofu: if you're Stanford you can have too many ;)
[16:29:49] <Downix> thumper?
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[16:30:08] <ofu> how many is too many?
[16:30:21] <Downix> hmm
[16:30:27] <Downix> man this is difficult to figure out
[16:30:54] <elektronkind> ofu: one of the main reasons why the SLAC lab at Stanford is Black Box customer #1 is that they reached the floor loading limit of their data center and so could not put in any thumpers, which are boxes that are h-e-a-v-y
[16:31:14] <ofu> rotfl
[16:31:30] <Tempt770> oh come on
[16:31:37] <Tempt770> they aren't THAT heavy
[16:31:47] <elektronkind> seriously, I toured SLAC back in may and that's what their director told me
[16:31:50] <quasi> Tempt770: have you ever tried lifting one?
[16:32:13] <ofu> ever tried to rackmount one alone?
[16:32:14] <jteo> with disks...woah
[16:32:15] <Downix> quasi:  ever tried listing a Sony UMATIC tape recorder?
[16:32:16] <quasi> Tempt770: there's a good reason they suggest you put them in the bottom of the rack
[16:32:27] <elektronkind> tempt is from the land of the vikings, so everything is small and insignificant to his power
[16:32:29] <Tempt770> much the same as lifting most enterprise gear
[16:32:30] <quasi> ofu: I know I couldn't
[16:32:37] <Tempt770> but not enough to overload floors
[16:32:46] <Tempt770> unless they're very shabby floors
[16:32:49] <quasi> Tempt770: 90kg+
[16:32:53] <jteo> maybe gravity is stronger at stanford.
[16:33:10] <elektronkind> Tempt: you should see their data center. it's a two level place. there are racks and racks just packed into it
[16:33:23] <Tempt770> most DC's with raised floors I've worked in have been rated for over 1200kg/m2
[16:33:53] <Tempt770> jteo: the earth sucks harder out there
[16:34:07] <jteo> Tempt770: true.
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[16:34:12] <quasi> Tempt770: I've specced one where the floor of the building couldn't carry more than 400kg/m2
[16:34:21] <Tempt770> that's sad
[16:34:22] <elektronkind> Tempt: and rememeber, SLAC is in a earthquake zone. There are more practical limits there than you would find elsewhere
[16:34:30] <Tempt770> and rules out a lot of machines
[16:34:46] <Tempt770> might be okay if the ceiling was only four foot high
[16:35:03] <quasi> Tempt770: but that's the joy of putting up datacenters in .nl where using the basement would give you lots of water cooling
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[16:36:05] <Tempt770> There's been a few cases of not being able to get starcats etc up the elevator even though the floor can handle it
[16:36:14] <Tempt770> I've also seen a starcat drop through the raised floor
[16:36:22] <vmlemon> Hah, flooding? ;)
[16:36:32] <Tempt770> nah
[16:36:39] <Tempt770> didn't fall all the way through
[16:36:43] <Tempt770> just dropped at one side
[16:37:03] <Tempt770> the floor supports had been moved to cater to electrical conduit
[16:37:05] <Tempt770> silly boys
[16:37:08] <Downix> Solaris "clusters" doesn't it?
[16:37:15] <quasi> vmlemon: with most of .nl being below sea level, it is quite common
[16:37:18] <flyingparchment> Downix: solaris cluster does
[16:37:21] <Downix> ok
[16:37:26] <flyingparchment> Downix: but it might not be the sort of cluster you're thinking of
[16:37:32] <flyingparchment> Downix: it's for HA, not increased performance
[16:37:41] <Downix> HA?
[16:37:48] <flyingparchment> high availability.  failover
[16:37:48] <elektronkind> high availability cluster
[16:37:59] <elektronkind> or are you thinking more of a compute cluster?
[16:38:08] <Tempt770> sun has grid engine for that
[16:38:13] <Tempt770> among other things
[16:38:13] <Downix> flyingparchment, That was actually my thinking.  Redundancies
[16:38:28] <elektronkind> Downix: then you can look at the Sun Cluster 3.2 product
[16:38:30] <elektronkind> it's free
[16:38:39] <ceri> grid engine probably not much good for web apps though
[16:38:41] <Downix> elektronkind, Ok, that is all I was making sure.
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[16:39:02] <Downix> ceri:  this is all new territory for me.  I'm out of my element (Linux setup)
[16:39:02] <elektronkind> veritas also sells a clustering solutsion - VCS
[16:39:12] <quasi> Downix: for something as simple as web serving, sun cluster probably isn't worth the bother (unless you want HA nfs in the back)
[16:39:18] <Tempt770> suncluster will handle load balancing for webapps
[16:39:36] <elektronkind> it will also make you pancakes in the morning
[16:39:45] <Downix> quasi:  I'm just going over all possibilities for this.  I like approaching every problem from every angle jic.
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[16:40:00] <Tempt770> Sunny pancakes
[16:40:15] <gndzer0> hi
[16:40:18] <flyingparchment> Tempt770: how does that work?  it can distribute the load between machines in the cluster?
[16:40:22] <Tempt770> Yes
[16:40:27] <gndzer0> has anyone managed to install opensolaris on intel mac?
[16:40:38] <flyingparchment> how many machines can such a cluster be?
[16:40:41] <Tempt770> flyingparchment: Fire it up sometime
[16:40:46] <quasi> gndzer0: some people has
[16:40:51] <flyingparchment> Tempt770: no hardware :(
[16:40:52] <Tempt770> flyingparchment: 16, tops
[16:41:11] <flyingparchment> we used to have about 10 idle V20vz i could play with stuff on, but they're all in use now
[16:41:18] <e^ipi> opensolaris is some code and therefore not installable
[16:41:19] <e^ipi> so, no.
[16:41:26] <Tempt770> time to snuffle some more hardware
[16:41:34] <e^ipi> I have SX:CE running in parallels though
[16:41:41] <Downix> Tempt770, Far more than I think we'll need
[16:41:44] <e^ipi> and I'm told it runs well under fusion as well
[16:41:54] <gndzer0> quasi, can't trick the installer to look for MBR partitions, it is using GPT one
[16:42:05] <e^ipi> gndzer0: boot camp
[16:42:10] <elektronkind> e^ipi: why there isn't a NE2000 driver in ON yet bugs me (re: running SXCE on Parallels)
[16:42:21] <quasi> gndzer0: because of the EFI boot bits on their disks
[16:42:25] <Tempt770> jesus
[16:42:30] <e^ipi> there isn't?
[16:42:33] <Tempt770> ne2000 is a long dead chipset
[16:42:42] <Tempt770> it was pulled from Solaris 7 I think
[16:42:57] <elektronkind> e^ipi: what ethernet driver do you use in your Parallels installation then?
[16:43:02] <gndzer0> i've got leopard dev build installed including boot camp
[16:43:05] <Downix> Hmm
[16:43:05] <quasi> gndzer0: but do a small search on blogs.sun.com - there's been several howtos
[16:43:13] <elektronkind> Tempt: NE2000 is what the Parallels VM emulates for a net interface
[16:43:14] <Tempt770> slow, inefficient, interrupts all over the place, ugly, never designed for ten meg, let alone more
[16:43:28] <Downix> if I use a T6000-based blade setup, it would allow for easier upgrades, in theory
[16:43:28] <gndzer0> quasi, thanks, yes, I saw those
[16:43:28] <Tempt770> Then the Parallels VM is exceptionally crap
[16:43:33] <Downix> but oy
[16:43:42] <Downix> I am so out of my comfort zone... 8)
[16:43:49] <Tempt770> Like most crappy Mac stuff
[16:44:10] <flyingparchment> out of all possible interfaces, why would they choose ne2000?
[16:44:37] <Downix> flyingparchment, I always preferred the Tulip....
[16:44:39] <elektronkind> could be for a myriad of copyright/IP/trademark reasons
[16:44:46] <Downix> but I'm biased, my dad worked for DEC
[16:44:46] <Downix> 8)
[16:45:09] <elektronkind> Yes! It works with NetWare
[16:45:10] <elektronkind> ;)
[16:45:18] <Tempt770> Tulid, Lance, any of the AMD stuff, whatever, just not bloody ne2000
[16:45:27] <Tempt770> Tulip, perhaps
[16:45:28] <quasi> Downix: you could use an alternative way to calculate - just try to figure out how large a bill you can get away with and work backwards from that
[16:46:00] <Downix> quasi:  That's dangerous, as I have to "share" with the editorial and art departments.
[16:46:19] <Downix> which reminds me, does Sun still make terms?
[16:46:34] <Tempt> terms?
[16:46:41] <Downix> terminals, thin-clients
[16:46:44] <quasi> Downix: we've got apache.org running on a single t2k and serving almost 1TB/day including a bunch of python scripts
[16:46:45] <Tempt770> SunRay
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[16:46:48] <Tempt770> of course.
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[16:47:00] <Downix> quasi:  oh cool, ok don't feel so nervous then.
[16:47:01] <Tempt> That'd annoy the linux types.
[16:47:12] <ofu> i ran into http://www.sun.com/msg/SUNOS-8000-AK, whats the correct menu.lst for jumpstarting nv75a?
[16:47:27] <quasi> Downix: sunray 2fs is pretty spiffy supporting dual displays up to 1920x1200
[16:47:48] <Downix> Tempt770, basic thought was for the editorial department to get a single big machine to share StarOffice with them.
[16:48:36] <Tempt> Downix: Oh, fair enough, Sun Rays will handle the job nicely.
[16:48:45] <movement> ofu: how did you run into that problem??
[16:48:50] <flyingparchment> use latex and ttys :)
[16:48:51] <movement> ofu: have you been editing menu.lst?
[16:48:53] <Downix> tempt:  it was their managers idea, actually.
[16:49:20] <ofu> i did the same thing i did for the sol10u4 release
[16:49:21] <Tempt770> well, sunrays are usually a good idea
[16:49:32] <Tempt770> so get it rollin'
[16:49:35] <movement> ofu: which is what?
[16:49:38] <Downix> Tempt, They edit on OpenOffice/Symphony now, all hosted over SAMBA.  Their PC's are really a waste.
[16:49:53] <movement> ofu: that message describes exactly what you need in your menu.lst
[16:49:56] <Downix> Checking out the various Sunray options
[16:50:29] <Tempt> I really do like the idea of apache.org running Solaris, what an excellent example.
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[16:53:42] <jafari> hello all , when you use pca to install patches, how can i install indivdual patches using pca
[16:53:51] <jafari> instead of pca fetching all
[16:53:56] <jafari> im getting some error
[16:54:14] <jafari> Version of package SUNWzoneu from directory SUNWzoneu in patch 120011-14 differs from the package installed on the system.
[16:55:20] <quasi> jafari: ./pca -? should give you the option list which iirc includes how to install a single patch
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[16:56:34] <Downix> now, for fun, the editorial manager is "we have to have MS Office"
[16:57:53] <Downix> because "it's what everyone uses"
[16:59:15] <quasi> Downix: SGD
[16:59:22] <Downix> SGD?
[16:59:27] <flyingparchment> sun global desktop
[16:59:56] <Tempt> Yep
[17:00:00] <Tempt> Publish Office through SSGD
[17:00:23] <Downix> I'm more concerned with the cost
[17:00:30] <flyingparchment> ssgd is sadly not free
[17:00:40] <Downix> Free is not the worry
[17:00:53] <Downix> It's paying for the # of Office licenses he wants that concerns me
[17:01:06] <quasi> yeah, that's not cheap
[17:01:07] <Tempt> yes, well.
[17:01:14] <Tempt> A good argument for StarOffice then.
[17:01:32] <Tempt> But with SSGD you could maintain a small license pool for MS Office
[17:01:37] <Tempt> for the few users that actually need it
[17:01:41] <Downix> Every other piece of the office is running Open Office, Symphony or Star Office
[17:01:50] <flyingparchment> use Works instead? :)
[17:02:20] <Tempt770> nasty
[17:02:47] <Downix> Nope, he insists, MS Office
[17:02:52] <Downix> even the other editors don't care
[17:02:56] <ceri> That presumably comes from his budget then?
[17:03:30] <Tempt770> out his arse more like
[17:03:43] <ceri> heh
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[17:04:19] <Downix> his idea is "hey, it's only money"
[17:04:42] <ceri> Which is fine, so long as it's his money.  Some battles aren't worth the fight
[17:05:00] <ceri> Sounds like you have plenty of other work to do
[17:05:05] <Downix> but it's not, he wants to cut my budget to pay for it.
[17:06:29] <ceri> So if you produce a list of stuff you can't do because he wants the paper clip thinger, that holds no water?
[17:07:04] <ceri> New job, my friend, new job.
[17:07:07] <Downix> Yes, because everyone else is using MS Office
[17:07:14] <Downix> took me long enough to get this job
[17:07:56] <ceri> I'm sorry
[17:08:12] <Downix> Not in a tech hotspot sad to say
[17:08:27] <Downix> (which is dumb but due more to the local market than anything else)
[17:09:36] <Tempt> anyway, night all
[17:09:40] <Tempt770> time for sleep
[17:11:15] <Downix> Hmm
[17:11:22] <Downix> if it was just him, no big deal
[17:11:28] <Downix> but he has 15 people in the department
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[17:12:07] <ceri> Thought you said it was just him.  Anyway, all you can do is make your case, I guess
[17:12:22] <Downix> He's the one that demands it, but he demands it for everyone under him
[17:12:31] <ceri> ah :)
[17:12:49] <Downix> $450 x 15 == a nice server
[17:14:17] <jafari> http://pastebin.com/d5033cd05
[17:14:30] <jafari> can anyone tell me the reason
[17:14:36] <flyingparchment> jafari: you can't patch nevada
[17:14:48] <flyingparchment> well, you could, but there are no patches for it
[17:15:01] <holcomb> there are a few (java patches etc)
[17:15:04] <jafari> ah
[17:15:11] <jafari> thanks
[17:15:16] <flyingparchment> do the java patches work?  i know the studio stuff does, but i thought java was too integrated
[17:15:16] <jafari> so i can leave it alone
[17:15:29] <holcomb> works fine i think... i don't really do anything with java
[17:15:40] <jafari> im running Solaris Nevada snv_48 SPARC
[17:15:57] <jafari> and i figured ill just run
[17:15:58] <jafari> Solaris Nevada snv_48 SPARC
[17:16:07] <jafari> sorry
[17:16:08] <jafari> run sudo pca --getxref --install --askauth
[17:16:12] <flyingparchment> well, svn_48 is fairly old
[17:16:27] <jafari> so i dont need to patch it correct
[17:16:33] <flyingparchment> you never "need" to patch
[17:16:43] <jafari> ok thanks
[17:16:43] <Downix> ok, my boss tells me to write it up both ways
[17:16:45] <flyingparchment> the difference is that with nevada you can't patch.  to get fixes and new features you need to upgrade
[17:16:54] <jafari> solari s10 will be fine to patch
[17:17:02] <Downix> then I make my case, and if I succeed, he'll have to switch
[17:17:11] <jafari> thanks i didnt know
[17:17:27] <jafari> Solaris Nevada snv_48 SPARC works for me
[17:17:37] <jafari> i have a few services running
[17:17:44] <jafari> and i dont want to break it
[17:17:49] <jafari> by upgrading
[17:20:23] <jafari> which one of these are the lastest
[17:20:24] <jafari> http://www.opensolaris.org/os/downloads/
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[17:24:07] <trs80> sxce is
[17:24:18] <jafari> which one is sxce
[17:24:26] <trs80> solaris express community edition
[17:24:29] <jafari> ok
[17:24:39] <jafari> what is this one
[17:24:40] <jafari> Solaris Express Developer Edition
[17:24:41] <trs80> solaris express developer edition is slightly older, but better tested
[17:24:54] <jafari> thanks
[17:24:57] <trs80> and you can buy support from sun for it
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[17:25:45] <jafari> and the others are just different flavors of *NIX distribution
[17:26:04] <jafari> like how linux has many distributions?
[17:26:30] <Downix> jafari:  thousands.
[17:26:43] <Downix> jafari:  And I remember when there were only 12
[17:26:47] <Downix> man I miss Ygdrassil
[17:26:54] <jafari> heheh
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[17:27:15] <elektronkind> Downix: and most of them fit on a few InfoMagic CDs with a complete mirror of sunsite.unc.edu and tsx-11 ;)
[17:27:19] <jafari> question if i do an upgrade from the nevada that i have to thsi latest one
[17:27:27] <jafari> do you think it will break anything
[17:27:52] <Downix> elektronkind, indeed  8)
[17:27:57] <ceri> Definitely.  Chances are that it will be something you can fix though.
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[17:29:41] <Fish> hello
[17:29:51] * tsp is a pacrat and should download sunsite if its still around.
[17:30:21] <elektronkind> tsp: ot
[17:30:40] <Downix> man this is difficult
[17:30:42] <elektronkind> tsp: it's now ibiblio.org and hosts a ton more than it did. It's a sourceforge download site
[17:30:42] <tsp> elektronkind: ?
[17:30:45] <tsp> ah
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[17:35:39] <nachox> hmm, i dont have a solaris here atm, id root gives information about groups and such the root user belongs to right?
[17:36:01] <flyingparchment> nachox: you need -a
[17:36:14] <flyingparchment> otherwise it only lists primary gid
[17:36:49] <nachox> id -a root ?
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[17:36:53] <flyingparchment> fus
[17:36:56] <flyingparchment> yes
[17:37:00] <flyingparchment> river@vandale:~>id root
[17:37:01] <flyingparchment> uid=0(root) gid=0(root)
[17:37:01] <flyingparchment> river@vandale:~>id -a root
[17:37:01] <flyingparchment> uid=0(root) gid=0(root) groups=1(other),2(bin),3(sys),4(adm),5(uucp),6(mail),7(tty),8(lp),9(nuucp),12(daemon),4(adm),2(bin),12(daemon),8(lp),6(mail),9(nuucp),1(other),3(sys),7(tty),5(uucp)
[17:37:25] <nachox> thanks :)
[17:37:47] <flyingparchment> (curious, it seems to be reading duplicate groups from /etc/group and ldap there..)
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[17:40:23] <nachox> flyingparchment: funny
[17:40:35] <nachox> flyingparchment: report it :)
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[18:03:16] <Downix> anyone have a good power consumption table for the T5120?
[18:05:54] <holcomb> neat, u24
[18:05:57] <cmihai> It's got 2 redundand 650W PSU's.
[18:06:37] <cmihai> So I'd say about 500-600 W fully stocked.
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[18:07:29] <cmihai> Hell, CPU is under 100W, so it's all in the disks and such.
[18:07:34] <Downix> yup
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[18:07:41] <Downix> trying to figure this all out before I show the boss
[18:07:48] <Downix> coming up with every angle
[18:08:13] <cmihai> Downix, Hell, I'd say as little as 250W for a minimal configuration.
[18:08:27] <elektronkind> a lot of that power consumption comes from the RAM  too
[18:08:29] <Downix> *nods*
[18:08:33] <cmihai> Downix, angle?
[18:08:38] <cmihai> Go with the usual :-)
[18:08:39] <Downix> any possible arguement
[18:08:42] <cmihai> "5W per thread!!!"
[18:08:55] <cmihai> That's like 64 virtual CPUs!!!!111oneone :P
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[18:11:54] <cmihai> Downix, do some charts on how you'll replace your 100 node P3 based Xeon Cluster with just two machines and all (failover :P). That always gets them.
[18:12:11] <Downix> heh
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[18:13:02] <Downix> and comparing between the T5120 and 5220 as well
[18:13:18] <cmihai> Throw in a couple of SPEC benches, a few quotes and something about "risk assesment and risk mitigation" and you're set. But remember, _always_ give your boss two choices.
[18:13:39] <cmihai> Make it look like he's making all the actual work and contributing by smart decision making
[18:13:40] <Downix> right
[18:13:54] <Downix> hence why I'm writing up a spec based on the Dell's
[18:13:55] <cmihai> Throw in some old sun server or something.
[18:14:00] <cmihai> Good idea ;-)
[18:15:31] <Downix> We're currently using 4 Dell's, about to add 2 more
[18:16:21] <cmihai> Can't say I like Dell much.
[18:16:26] <cmihai> I'd rather go with 2 or 3 letter vendors.
[18:16:32] <cmihai> The 4 letter vendors usually suck :P
[18:16:55] <Downix> heh
[18:17:07] <Downix> I lost my like for them with the Laptop blew up
[18:17:56] <cmihai> Your Dell battery exploded?
[18:19:35] <Downix> nope
[18:19:42] <Downix> power regulator chip broke
[18:19:49] <Downix> turned it into a nice paperweight
[18:19:54] <Downix> known issue with the model
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[18:20:53] <cmihai> Hey, most Dell had other problems.
[18:21:02] <Downix> true
[18:21:03] <cmihai> Like bursting into a flaming inferno and blowing your nuts off.
[18:21:09] <jteo> true
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[18:21:21] <cmihai> So you should be grateful
[18:22:11] <Downix> yes, just annoyed
[18:22:16] <Downix> and never buying one again
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[18:24:09] <Downix> this is funny, comparing the price of operating a Sun machine with an Apple... never thought I'd see the day I'd be doing this
[18:24:45] <cmihai> Hah, Apple makes servers? :P
[18:24:55] <cmihai> (I know they do, but come on, who the hell buys them?)
[18:25:15] <Downix> I'm actually impressed with them in comparison with the Dell's we currently have
[18:25:24] <vmlemon> Deadly Electronics Lease and Leave?
[18:25:25] <Downix> for web-work, of course, not in the same ballpark
[18:25:36] <Downix> but for the office server, possibly
[18:25:58] <cmihai> Overpriced and underpowered ;-\
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[18:26:15] <cmihai> Not to mention Apple service sort of sucks.
[18:26:20] <Downix> no arguements there
[18:26:26] <Downix> but overpriced, not so much
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[18:26:42] <Downix> it's a good $500 less than the Dell I just priced out for the same features
[18:28:03] <cmihai> Before, it was just a power that couldn't run AIX, you were better off with a RS/6000 or some pSeries, now it's an overpriced Intel. Can't really see the point.
[18:28:18] <Downix> but by the same note, Sun makes one less than that which would integrate with the webserver far smoother
[18:28:23] <cmihai> MacOS X ain't known for it's server side features either...
[18:28:26] <Downix> right
[18:28:52] <Downix> doesn't help that I'm pricing out for 3 departments
[18:29:01] <cmihai> And if you're just going to run Windows or Linux or VMware, why buy one in the first place? Shiny jeweled case? :p
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[18:29:21] <Pietro_S> is there any way, how can I install ZFS root (whole disk for ZFS) from dvd installer?
[18:29:24] <Downix> heh
[18:30:46] <cmihai> Pietro_S, not yet :-). Installer isn't capable of ZFS root yet. Will be done by Solaris 11 :P
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[18:31:21] <bda> cmihai: That's not entirely true, I don't think.
[18:31:35] <flyingparchment> the installer can do it but only with jumpstart
[18:31:37] <Downix> Or we could take the Dells we're currently pushing to the breaking point on webservers and use them as the office server
[18:31:38] <flyingparchment> and you can't upgrade
[18:31:43] <Downix> there, I like that idea
[18:31:52] <bda> flyingparchment: Really?
[18:31:57] <flyingparchment> bda: afaik yes
[18:32:00] <bda> (To no upgrading)
[18:32:08] <cmihai> flyingparchment, that isn't exactly the installer :-).
[18:32:09] <flyingparchment> never tried it myself, but that's what i heard
[18:32:09] <Downix> Ok, so now, back to the original problem, how do I host an MS Office setup for a terminal?
[18:33:30] <flyingparchment> Downix: SSGD
[18:33:42] <Downix> I mean, does the terminal need Windows?
[18:33:55] <cmihai> Downix, what do you mean?
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[18:34:28] <Downix> cmihai:  looking at the SunRay and trying to understand what it and the server needs so my editorial department can have the MS Office they want
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[18:36:16] <Pietro_S> cmihai: isn't there some workaround?
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[18:37:08] <Downix> am I then running Windows in emulation for it?
[18:37:19] <flyingparchment> i don't think sunray will work so well for windows apps
[18:37:47] <Downix> *nods*  that was my fear
[18:37:51] <seanmcg> sunray + citrix
[18:38:00] <seanmcg> sun sells a solution based on that
[18:38:07] <Cyrille> sunray windows connector plus a terminal server
[18:38:11] <Cyrille> sun ray sorry.
[18:39:05] <Downix> why does he demand that 1 thing....
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[18:41:23] <Downix> Ok, I'm dealing with him later
[18:41:40] <BallChalk|away> hey it's like we got more users now
[18:41:41] <Downix> Art department first
[18:41:57] <BallChalk|away> we're up 30 about
[18:42:02] <BallChalk|away> hah
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[18:44:39] <Downix> I will figure this out tho
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[18:45:10] <Pietro_S> so the only way how to have ZFS root is to from already installed system move things to zfs and then hope that it'll work
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[18:45:23] <jteo> Pietro_S: yes. for now.
[18:45:34] <flyingparchment> can things using the sun java setup wizard thing (like studio) be installed automatically with jumpstart?
[18:45:43] <Pietro_S> so I won't do it at all, cause I'm just lazy
[18:45:45] <Triskelios> Downix: have you considered crossover office serving to regular SunRays?
[18:46:00] <Downix> Triskelios, No, I hadn't actually
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[18:47:27] <Pietro_S> Triskelios: isn't wine (I hope that crossover is based on wine, otherwise ignoree me) a bit slow on sun rays? I think it use 2D textures copy, even fo some forms ...
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[18:51:23] <Triskelios> Pietro_S: yeah, crossover is the commercially supported wine. I wasn't aware of wine/X11 inefficiencies causing significant performance issues on Sun Ray (there was a document by sun on wine/sunray)
[18:51:45] <jteo> it's pretty ok over a LAN.
[18:52:49] <tomww> flyingparchment: for studio there is already a batch-install and a SUNWjet studio module
[18:53:37] <Downix> ok, giving up on the terminals
[18:53:46] <Downix> I'll take the art dept's old PC's and move them there
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[18:54:54] <Triskelios> would be cheaper than getting new terminals anyway
[18:54:58] <Downix> yup
[18:55:04] <Downix> as we already have the machines
[18:55:08] <Downix> they'll need an OS upgrade
[18:56:15] <Triskelios> hey gdamore
[18:56:23] <gdamore> hey
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[18:58:33] <Milano> hi
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[19:08:12] <flyingparchment> the way sun distributes some solaris software as both packages and tar installs is confusing
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[19:09:02] <RealWickedWicky> heya
[19:09:04] <nachox> why?
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[19:09:27] <flyingparchment> nachox: because i install the tar version then see patches, and wonder why there are patches for a tar file
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[19:10:09] <jteo> mmm.
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[19:12:18] <nachox> SUNWjman has the man pages right?
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[19:13:36] <WickedWicky> the japanese version I think
[19:13:41] <WickedWicky> english is just SUNWman
[19:13:46] <WickedWicky> $ pkginfo | grep SUNWman
[19:13:47] <WickedWicky> system      SUNWman                          On-Line Manual Pages
[19:14:51] <WickedWicky> google confirms SUNWjman is the japanese set of manual pages
[19:15:04] <nachox> crap, i dont think i have SUNWman, it's probably in the 2nd solaris 8 cd
[19:16:01] <nachox> and i dont have it
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[19:17:09] <CrashandDie> There's just one thing people, Sun should advertise that SXCE is also x86...
[19:17:31] <CrashandDie> Yesterday, I downloaded the SXDE cuz I thought (wrongly) SXCE was SPARC only
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[19:18:20] <WickedWicky> I just had a look in my room for you nachox, I dont have the Solaris 8 media here, it's at work, sorry
[19:18:41] <flyingparchment> CrashandDie: why did you think that?  is the website misleading?
[19:19:10] <nachox> can i still download solaris 8 from sun?
[19:19:30] <nachox> i really need those man pages
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[19:20:28] <WickedWicky> nachox: not that I am aware
[19:20:33] <CrashandDie> flyingparchment, yeah, sortof
[19:20:39] <WickedWicky> I only have the Intel media here for solaris 8
[19:21:00] <flyingparchment> CrashandDie: if it's opensolaris.org  tehre's a few people here that can edit it.. whats the problematic bit?
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[19:21:01] <WickedWicky> I'd be glad to hook you up with the sparc media or just the package tomorrow if noone can hook you up before that
[19:21:10] <CrashandDie> flyingparchment, no, it's the sun part
[19:21:27] <flyingparchment> nachox: did you try downloading the java distribution, or do you specifically need the ones shipped with solaris 8?
[19:21:39] <flyingparchment> oh wait, this isn't java, nm :)
[19:21:57] <nachox> WickedWicky: it's intel i have
[19:22:26] <WickedWicky> You want the entire ISO of CD2 or just the package SUNWman?
[19:22:35] <nachox> just tha man pages
[19:22:40] <WickedWicky> hold on
[19:23:00] <nachox> i could use the entire iso, but the man pages are enough
[19:23:12] <WickedWicky> yep, it's on CD2
[19:23:18] <WickedWicky> lemme zip the package for you
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[19:23:40] <WickedWicky> and then I'll create the ISO for you, but since I only have 2Mbit upstream let's prioritize to what you need first ;-)
[19:24:05] <nachox> thanks ::)
[19:24:30] <nachox> to sun people, please ignore the flagrant licensing violation :P
[19:25:10] <WickedWicky> I got the Intel media about 4 or 5 years ago at the end of solaris 8 system administration course
[19:26:08] <axisys> looks like sanricity is the only way to tell 6140 to ignore zfs cache flush? there is no sun tool for that?
[19:26:30] <axisys> err..
[19:26:31] <axisys> SANtricity
[19:26:47] <axisys> is there a sun storage tool to setup the same?
[19:28:25] <WickedWicky> nachox: URL is in pvt
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[19:29:18] <flyingparchment> mmmm, blistering 22KB/s download speed from sdlc
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[19:33:38] <Pietro_S> flyingparchment: at firt look, I read it as 22MB/s - got angry who is eating whole bandwith ;-)
[19:33:47] <flyingparchment> heh
[19:34:01] <flyingparchment> i have got 22MB/sec from sdlc too, but it's rather rare ;)
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[19:36:09] <Downix> ok, finally tallyed up the need for our server
[19:36:12] <Downix> webserver
[19:36:20] <Downix> a T1000 with max RAM could handle it
[19:36:26] <Downix> and if we need more, buy more then
[19:36:29] <flyingparchment> why buy T1 when T2 is out?
[19:36:45] <Downix> flyingparchment, $5000 price tag vs $32,000 price tag
[19:36:48] <flyingparchment> also T1000 only has a single disk
[19:37:21] <Downix> Hrm?  it lists 2
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[19:38:03] <flyingparchment> hm.. that's new.  it used to only have one. guess they upgraded it
[19:38:12] <jteo> don't buy a T1.
[19:38:19] <Downix> I'll do an identical T2 setup to compare
[19:39:11] <quasi> the T1 might be slightly cheaper, but only very slightly and you'll get a lot more performance out of a T2
[19:39:18] <sommerfeld> the t1000 can have either 1 x 3.5" or 2 x 2.5" disks
[19:39:21] <jteo> on the off chance that one of your php scripts uses FP, your performance will drop to dogs.
[19:39:41] <quasi> sommerfeld: but the t1000 is single psu only
[19:39:46] <Downix> quasi:  I'm worried that the boss will balk at the price
[19:39:51] <Downix> quasi:  good point.
[19:41:27] * quasi wouldn't buy t1000s for anything important ... perhaps if I had a pile and a workload that scaled well, but now that the T2 is out, there's no sane reason to go t1
[19:41:46] <flyingparchment> the T1 does seem rather a lot cheaper
[19:42:12] <quasi> flyingparchment: just as soon as you want a bit of memory, things even out fast
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[19:42:25] <sommerfeld> t1000 looks targetted at horizontal scalability where you can occasionally lose a compute node without much impact on services.
[19:42:27] <flyingparchment> quasi: for 16GB, $9,195 vs $24,995
[19:42:55] <quasi> flyingparchment: eh? are you comparing t1000 and t5220?
[19:43:03] <flyingparchment> quasi: no, T1000 and T5120
[19:43:29] <quasi> flyingparchment: it would be more fair to compare T2000 and T5120
[19:43:38] <flyingparchment> why?
[19:43:48] <flyingparchment> i don't need a T2000 :)
[19:43:55] <Downix> T5120 is a 1U like the T1000, seemed a suitable comparison
[19:44:15] <sommerfeld> Downix: size isn't everything :-)
[19:44:22] <Downix> sommerfeld, true
[19:44:24] <WickedWicky> A netra 5 is 1U as well
[19:44:26] <WickedWicky> :P
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[19:44:35] <Downix> sommerfeld, But cost/perf/watt is
[19:45:43] <quasi> WickedWicky: and I have an E4500 - that's 6U but sure as hell not 6 times faster than a T5120
[19:46:07] <flyingparchment> quasi: if there's no T2 equivalent to the T1000, that seems like one reason to still buy T1
[19:46:48] <sommerfeld> quasi: ITYM 8U
[19:47:12] <quasi> flyingparchment: well, in some ways you could compare the 4core t5120 to an 8core T1000 - there's a fair chance that the t5120 will still be faster
[19:47:37] <quasi> sommerfeld: possibly yes - it is in a colo in lux waiting to be killed
[19:47:38] <Downix> quasi:  I'm replacing some P4's and an old Xeon
[19:47:54] <flyingparchment> sadly, our next purchase will probably be dell xeon anyway ;)
[19:48:53] <Downix> flyingparchment, We'll have one for sale shortly.  8)
[19:49:05] <WickedWicky> quasi: let's make a beertender out of it
[19:49:08] <quasi> sommerfeld: there's a nice pile of 9 EOL machines doing next to nothing and eating ~9000W - I'm hoping to consolidate it all into a single t2000 - which will pay for itself in power savings alone
[19:49:43] <quasi> WickedWicky: if you want it you can have it - I'll get the to put it out in the parking lot for you ;)
[19:49:51] <WickedWicky> haha
[19:50:57] <quasi> more than one rack - which might end up in a t5120
[19:51:16] <flyingparchment> [ ] 7. Monitoring Console 1.0 Update 1
[19:51:19] <flyingparchment> what is that?
[19:51:29] <Downix> quasi, also, the plan is to start off with a less expensive model to buy a second or third more expensive unit as the load increases
[19:52:18] <quasi> Downix: then I really think you should look at x86 instead
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[19:52:33] <Downix> quasi:  we're on x86 already.
[19:52:57] <Downix> quasi:  need to consolidate 3 P4 and a Xeon server together
[19:53:08] <quasi> Downix: something sensible like suns boxes - x64
[19:53:19] <Downix> been considering that as well
[19:53:31] <quasi> Downix: buy a couple of x2200s - lots cheaper
[19:53:53] <Downix> quasi: but then we're back to the same scenario we have now
[19:54:15] <quasi> Downix: really? run solaris on them
[19:54:37] <Downix> that would be different, yes
[19:54:46] <Downix> right now a mixture of RH and CentOS
[19:54:52] <quasi> ew
[19:55:04] <flyingparchment> Downix: why do you want to change to T2?
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[19:56:09] <sommerfeld> looking for ldoms?
[19:56:10] <Downix> flyingparchment, Honestly, I want to go SPARC for a few reasons, from power needs to job security (as I'd be the only person with any know-how on the system)
[19:56:22] <flyingparchment> okay, bad start :)
[19:56:41] <flyingparchment> who will fix the system when you're on vacation?
[19:56:42] <WickedWicky> dude
[19:56:50] <WickedWicky> you dont want to be the only one to know the system
[19:56:59] <flyingparchment> (or asleep, for that matter)
[19:57:01] <WickedWicky> your life will end, socialy
[19:57:14] <WickedWicky> I've been there, unvoluntarely
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[19:58:11] <WickedWicky> it cost me my wife, my kids... oh no wait, I never had those
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[19:58:26] <quasi> ;)
[19:58:28] <Downix> I just inherited a setup that's been handled piecemail for over a year
[19:58:36] <holcomb> i have to sleep on the couch when i'm on-call
[19:58:37] <Downix> trying to get everyone onto the same page
[19:58:55] <quasi> holcomb: you get to sleep?
[19:59:03] <WickedWicky> good for you man, really
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[19:59:12] <Downix> I can teach someone how to run it, but if I pick any one solution over the other, would get favoritism
[19:59:20] <Downix> last thing this office needs is more politics
[19:59:23] <holcomb> for a few hours at a time usually
[19:59:34] <Downix> so, put everyone off-balance to then get them even
[20:00:22] <WickedWicky> you could prevent the whole favoritism issue by coming with good arguments why you've chosed what you chosed
[20:00:46] <WickedWicky> investigate, report and come to a conclussion
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[20:00:49] <Downix> WickedWicky, I thought I could when I removed the two Windows 2003 servers, no luck
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[20:01:26] <WickedWicky> going to Sparc wont help you really not getting into that discussion without good arguments why you want sparc either
[20:01:41] <WickedWicky> "why sparc?" "because I can!" mostly wont work
[20:01:44] <Downix> true
[20:01:58] <WickedWicky> and I'd leave the "job securing" motivation out as well ;P
[20:02:06] <Downix> I'm also concerned over the heat the Xeon is putting out
[20:02:22] <alt_os> Greeting and Salutations.   Anybody take the SA-400 or SA-327-S10 courses?  Wondering if they are worth the money and time.
[20:02:39] <WickedWicky> well, you can put concerns like that on paper, write a proposal stating what you believe is a good alternative
[20:02:41] <Downix> right now, it's not bad as it's out, but when they put it into the new server-room, I can see heat becoming a big issue
[20:02:42] <quasi> WickedWicky: it's only attractive if you get paid double for overtime ;)
[20:03:00] <WickedWicky> my god... I start to talk organized and thoughtfull.. something goes wrong
[20:03:05] <Downix> hehe
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[20:04:20] <quasi> WickedWicky: maybe you got cheated during your last coffee shop visit ;)
[20:04:49] <WickedWicky> well, I was in amsterdam today but everything was closed at 5am, slackers
[20:05:28] <WickedWicky> seems the new trend is to smoke up cars though :s
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[20:07:19] <sommerfeld> smoking anything is gonna be bad for your lungs but I bet a smoking car is far worse for you than the, uh, "coffee".
[20:07:22] <WickedWicky> anyway, I am going to make a coffee, be right back
[20:08:19] <WickedWicky> sommerfeld: the past week there is a group of youth in Amsterdam that set cars on fire, they're angry cause one of their buddies got shot my two police officers while the dude tried to off both police officers
[20:08:32] <WickedWicky> my two = by two
[20:09:01] <flyingparchment> hmm, the web proxy admin interface feels kind of shoddy
[20:09:47] <sommerfeld> wickedwicky: yes, saw the news reports.  guy wasn't exactly very smart (bringing a knife to a gun fight in a police station?)
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[20:11:30] <WickedWicky> sommerfeld: indeed
[20:11:47] <WickedWicky> situation last night was that the police force had to give protection to the fire fighters
[20:11:49] <WickedWicky> I mean really
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[20:12:38] <WickedWicky> oh a must see movie for your guys, off topic but it can relax you after heavy work loads: a scanner darly
[20:12:38] <sommerfeld> sounds too much like an intentional "suicide by cop".
[20:12:41] <WickedWicky> darkly
[20:13:01] <WickedWicky> sommerfeld: either he was mentaly challanged or he had an hidden agenda
[20:13:14] <sommerfeld> WickedWIcky: or both
[20:13:20] <WickedWicky> could be
[20:15:38] <jteo> Amsterdam sounds funky.
[20:15:58] <palowoda> Interesting little box.  http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/10/23/sun_introduces_ultra_24_workstation/
[20:16:13] <sommerfeld> hopefully they'll get things back under control.
[20:18:15] <jteo> palowoda: sounds like an OEMed system.
[20:18:29] <palowoda> OEM'ed to who?
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[20:19:22] <jteo> OEMed *from* who.
[20:20:37] <palowoda> I still can't believe one of those target prices with the QX6850 can go for 2850.00.   Isn't that graphics card kind of expensive?
[20:22:01] <palowoda> My bad different model numbers.
[20:22:14] <palowoda> You only get a nvs290.
[20:22:29] <Pietro_S> palowoda: 1GB for RAM is kind of joke (the lowest has even 512 ..)
[20:22:42] <jteo> palowoda: :)
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[20:24:28] <palowoda> Yeah but it's easy nowdays to replace it with 4G.  It's a good base price on those models.
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[20:27:07] <palowoda> Wow no fan on the cpu, looks like they just use three heat pipes and a cooling stack.
[20:27:14] <Pietro_S> hmm, sxce-75b looks like non able to install on my repaired notebook (last thing it holds was 70b) :(
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[20:27:46] <palowoda> 75b?  I thought the download was 75a.
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[20:28:11] <WickedWicky> I think it's a pablomh
[20:28:15] <WickedWicky> *shrug*
[20:28:16] <ofu> hooray, my solaris talks xen now
[20:28:20] <WickedWicky> palowoda
[20:28:50] <Pietro_S> caiman installer - said that he has not enough RAM (1GB - 128MB vga), the old installer installed it but at boot it paniced and even didn't write crash dump, cause it was not configured !
[20:28:55] <Pietro_S> b as build
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[20:29:16] <palowoda> Use the console install.
[20:29:31] <palowoda> The caiman installer needs a bit of work still.
[20:30:36] <Pietro_S> but failsafe works ...
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[20:32:29] <palowoda> try turning of the cde login manager in failsafe mode and see if x is causing the panic.
[20:32:44] <Pietro_S> hmm, looks like I have to try to reinstall it as, I don't have any idea how I would repair panic at the beginning of inicialization
[20:33:13] <Pietro_S> it looks like the disk is not mounted yet, otherwise I can't explain why it didn
[20:33:21] <Pietro_S> didn't write crash dump
[20:38:48] <palowoda> Wow, this "La Fin Du Monde" beer is actually pretty good.
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[20:43:20] <WickedWicky> a tripple I read
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[20:43:23] <WickedWicky> oughta be nice
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[20:51:48] <nrubsig> !seen comay
[20:51:51] <Drone> comay (comay!i=comay@nat/sun/x-2ab854802385deb3) was last seen in #opensolaris on Mon 22 Oct 2007 17:35 GMT, saying 'hey there stevel'.
[20:51:57] <nrubsig> grrr
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[20:55:46] <nrubsig> erm
[20:55:52] <nrubsig> This was a joke, was it ?
[20:55:53] *** comay has joined #opensolaris
[20:56:22] * nrubsig starts cursing the sky yellow/green...
[20:56:53] <WickedWicky> yellow + green sky implies lightning strikes
[20:56:55] <WickedWicky> I hate those
[20:57:05] *** comay has quit IRC
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[20:57:40] <WickedWicky> comay stay before nrubsig goes beserk
[20:57:45] *** ChanServ sets mode: +o comay
[20:57:59] * nrubsig wonders whether there is a IRC command to prevent users from logging out.
[20:58:35] <nrubsig>  /mode irc_addiction enable comay -mode=satanic
[20:59:07] <nrubsig> comay: ping!
[20:59:40] <comay> sorry, i was reconfiguring my xchat client
[20:59:46] <comay> yes roland?
[21:00:16] <nrubsig> comay: ---> /msg
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[21:06:20] <nrubsig> groan
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[21:11:21] <WickedWicky> so, when Brandz says "support of RHEL 3.x or the eq. CentOS dist". Does that mean RHEL 3.4, CentOS3.4 and not CentoS 3.9, or should any CentoS 3.x work?
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[21:12:15] <axisys> how do I tell 6140 to ignore zfs cache flush? there is no sun tool for that? OR santricity is the only way? can't find a download of that :-(
[21:12:20] <quasi> WickedWicky: you need a 2.4 kernel based one
[21:12:27] <comay> WickedWicky, most 3.x should work although 3.8 was the most tested version
[21:13:04] <WickedWicky> quasi: The weird thing is that I downloaded 3.9 isos, but doing a zoneadm -z lilith-lx -d /path/to/iso/dir tells me it cant find a compatible Linux dist
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[21:13:31] <WickedWicky> and unfortunately 3.9 is what's downloadable from the CentoS mirrors atm
[21:14:00] <axisys> zfs:zfs_nocacheflush=1 this is a bad idea if I have zpool on internal disks correct? so I still need santricity or like?!
[21:14:18] <axisys> internal disks as well I meant
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[21:16:57] <comay> 3.9 will likely work as well
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[21:18:56] <WickedWicky> # zoneadm -z lilith-lx install -d /export/downloads/iso/centos/3.9 all
[21:18:56] <WickedWicky> A ZFS file system has been created for this zone.
[21:18:56] <WickedWicky> Checking for valid Linux distribution ISO images...
[21:18:56] <WickedWicky> No supported Linux distributions found.
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[21:20:15] <WickedWicky> I also tried lofiadm -a the iso, then '-d /dev/lofi/1' , same result
[21:20:20] <WickedWicky> got any ideas?
[21:23:02] <quasi> I still haven't felt the urge to dirty any of my solaris boxes with linux ;)
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[21:23:35] <WickedWicky> if this works I can make a case for my current employer to do virtualization under solaris/opensolaris
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[21:24:28] <WickedWicky> we have +/- 70 RHEL 3.4 servers
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[21:26:37] <WickedWicky> I'll try the RHEL 3.4 isos tomorrow at work and see if that works
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[21:32:37] <comay> WickedWicky, it's been awhile since i created a lx zone so don't know off the top of my head
[21:32:52] <WickedWicky> I'll have a play around tomorrow, thanks :)
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[21:40:34] <axisys> anyone know the url to download santricity?
[21:41:54] <WickedWicky> not me, sorry
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[21:43:45] <hali> axisys: yes, pay for the service contract and lsi will give you access to the software you are entited to :)
[21:45:40] <axisys> hali: I do have sun contract.. unless you are referring to IBM contract
[21:46:02] <hali> LSI contract
[21:46:09] <hali> i've never used any sun branded LSI kit
[21:47:37] <axisys> hali: so besides that is there any other way to set that on storage?
[21:47:51] <hali> it's got a serial port
[21:47:52] <axisys> hali: probably not right :-) ?
[21:48:01] <hali> what kit is it?
[21:48:05] <hali> metastor?
[21:48:19] <axisys> hali: 6140, if I understood your question
[21:48:42] <hali> ah yes, hm, thats quite new right? so sun should probably have the software you need downloadable
[21:48:50] <hali> send them a ticket
[21:48:56] <axisys> hali: cool thanks man
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[21:53:07] <vipe> I'm using an external usb disk while working on my notebook at work, with zfs. Till now, once a disk is member of a pool, we're no longer able to remove that disk from the pool (for other usage). I wonder if it would be possible to use a second disk (same vendor and type) to create a mirror of my primary disk, but just to have a backup available at all times? I want to avoid unstable zfs volumes
[21:56:05] <holcomb> does the u24 have a sata-framework-friendly controller?
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[22:23:41] <fuzzy> is it possible to hack the ramdisk for open solaris and have it initalize zfs slices and use them as the root partition for booting upon?
[22:25:13] <cmihai> Not yet, but feel free to waste your time.
[22:25:33] <cmihai> Hell, I'm sure there is an OpenSolaris project for it. Or start one ;P
[22:25:52] <fuzzy> hrm
[22:26:49] <fuzzy> the reason i'm asking is currently i'm working on useing iscsi targets inside of a linux ramdisk to build a soft raid 1, to use as a xen guest.  It's about 80
[22:27:01] <fuzzy> 80% working, however i would much rather see solaris do this
[22:27:22] <fuzzy> because frankly i'm so sick of the way linux treats scsi devices I could puke
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[22:32:27] <fuzzy> i guess i'll bbl
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[22:32:31] <ballchalk> Hy guys help how do i get resolv.conf to update?
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[22:32:57] <elektronkind> ballchalk: are you using DHCP?
[22:33:10] <ballchalk> No matter how many time i reboot it wont grab a new dns server
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[22:33:22] <ballchalk> Yea dhcp
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[22:33:38] <ballchalk> Lemme connect to the righr network
[22:33:41] <ballchalk> Brb
[22:34:03] <ballchalk> Ok there
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[22:34:13] <ballchalk> Wha should i do?
[22:35:43] <ballchalk> Wats weird is i vi'ed resolve.conf and zero it and saved
[22:35:58] <elektronkind> try running this command: dhcpinfo -c -i <interface> DNSserv
[22:36:03] <ballchalk> But the old dns keeos ciming back
[22:36:10] <ballchalk> Kk hold on
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[22:36:20] <elektronkind> where interface is whatever interface on your box is on the DHCP net
[22:36:37] <ballchalk> Ya i kno
[22:36:45] <elektronkind> does it output the correct or old DNS server info is what you want to see
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[22:37:11] <holcomb> it's resolv.conf (you said you vi'd resolve.conf - that could be your problem)
[22:37:14] <ballchalk> Command not found
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[22:37:27] <elektronkind>  /sbin/dchcpinfo
[22:37:33] <elektronkind> er /sbin/dhcpinfo
[22:37:38] <ballchalk> Ok hold
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[22:38:01] <ballchalk> Yea its there but weird env not set brb
[22:39:48] <ballchalk> It gave me ....addresses like 0xC0  8 different ones
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[22:40:51] <ballchalk> And it changes all 8 memory addresses it seems
[22:41:31] <ballchalk> Everytime i run the command u gave me that is
[22:41:57] <ballchalk> Doesnr show me any dns servers
[22:42:23] <ballchalk> And resolve.conf came back again
[22:42:58] <ballchalk> With the old dns in it when i do more resolv.conf
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[22:43:44] <ballchalk> elektronkind u there?
[22:44:24] <seanmcg> ballchalk: you have access to your dhcp server ?
[22:44:45] <ballchalk> No im on my schools wifi
[22:45:02] <ballchalk> I was at home earlier so it woeked there
[22:45:08] <ballchalk> Worked*
[22:45:43] <ballchalk> I have a report to do too! Crap irs due in 2 hours
[22:45:52] <ballchalk> Heh
[22:46:16] <seanmcg> sounds like something wrong with your school's dhcp server..
[22:46:28] <ballchalk> Realy?
[22:46:54] <ballchalk> Its working for other ppl i see them using windiws though
[22:47:20] <ballchalk> Somethings gotta be done on here
[22:47:51] <ballchalk> Can we port os x's mdnsresponder? Haha
[22:47:55] <ballchalk> Jk
[22:48:42] <Triskelios> ballchalk: mDNSresponder is already part of SX, as mdnsd
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[22:48:58] <ballchalk> Oh ok
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[22:49:02] <Triskelios> it works, too =P
[22:49:22] <ballchalk> So any way how i can get it ?
[22:49:32] <ballchalk> I mean the dns?
[22:50:04] <ballchalk> Which ver sx?  Im on b55 de
[22:50:04] <Triskelios> you should probably be using nwam, maybe your system thinks it's supposed to be using a static setup right now
[22:50:11] <Triskelios> b75
[22:50:30] <Triskelios> (or b72+ if you get the JDS packages seperately)
[22:50:33] <ballchalk> Its always dhcp
[22:50:53] <ballchalk> Nwam?
[22:51:21] <Triskelios> ballchalk: man nwamd
[22:51:45] <ballchalk> Meh i poweed off
[22:51:50] <Triskelios> b55 is kinda really ancient
[22:51:55] <ballchalk> Powered* sorry
[22:52:05] <ballchalk> Uh huh hehe yeapp
[22:52:35] <ballchalk> But yea when will opensolaris support zfs boot as an option
[22:52:50] <Triskelios> I have been using zfs boot for more than a month
[22:53:06] <ballchalk> Hack?
[22:53:17] <ballchalk> Or is it in the installer?
[22:53:19] <quasi> it's been doable for many months
[22:53:24] <quasi> not the installer yet
[22:53:37] <ballchalk>  yea i kno
[22:53:44] <ballchalk> Doable
[22:53:55] <quasi> http://www.opensolaris.org/os/community/zfs/boot/netinstall/
[22:54:16] <quasi> not as much of a hack as it used to be
[22:54:18] <ballchalk> Im on colloquy iphone
[22:54:25] <ballchalk> Xant copy paste yet
[22:55:05] <quasi> haha, what a waste of money
[22:55:24] <ballchalk> Meh im happy with it
[22:55:27] <ballchalk> Heh
[22:56:00] <ballchalk> I coulda gotten a sun servee but i cant carry that around
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[22:56:45] <ballchalk> Espexially using solaris as my desktop os dor awhile now
[22:56:59] <ballchalk> Hey gotta go
[22:57:12] <ballchalk> Thanks
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[23:01:43] <LuckyLuke> will it boot from RAIDZ or it needs a non-raidz/z2 pool?
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[23:11:09] <TomJ> dont think you can boot from raidz
[23:16:52] <LuckyLuke> mmm
[23:18:35] <LuckyLuke> but it will boot from a mirror
[23:19:06] <LuckyLuke> maybe I'll do a partition with a mirrored pool for sxce and the rest of the disk in a raidz pool for the data
[23:19:11] <LuckyLuke> (on 4 disks, I mean)
[23:20:00] <LuckyLuke> right now I have those 4 ide disks on raidz only for storage, and the o.s. on a single scsi disk, I'd like to get rid of this last disk.
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[23:24:23] <LuckyLuke> for the topic, latest sxce seems to be 75a
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[23:27:57] <fredm> has anyone tried to upgrade/create a parallels vm of 75a? I gave it a lazy try that failed
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[23:42:07] <fuzzy> SXCE moved to 75 today!!!!
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[23:59:37] <agliodbs> SXCE?





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