[00:00:01] <FireflyST> pauliukas: did you go through Preferences  and look to see if ath0 is there in Network?
[00:00:06] <pauliukas> it is.
[00:00:13] <pauliukas> But it's only giving me option to put in a wep
[00:00:20] <Triskelios> pauliukas: sadly, yes
[00:00:23] <CIA-24> mh27603: 6600176 ppm_manage_cpus() leaks memory when noone is watching, 6600334 pm_register_watcher() leaks memory if same process watches more than two devices
[00:00:24] <CIA-24> gm89044: 6600881 Integration for bugID# 6480942 Crypto support UltraSPARC-T2 processor, breaks SU4 src product builds
[00:00:33] <pauliukas> Man, this is worse than Fedora...
[00:00:39] <FireflyST> pauliukas: why are you using b56?
[00:00:42] <pauliukas> Once I get this running, can I update somehow online?
[00:00:53] <pauliukas> FireflyST: Because I had burned a DVD back in a while.
[00:01:00] <pauliukas> How am I supposed to know that it updates so fast.
[00:01:05] <FireflyST> wow, we're on b72 now
[00:01:14] <pauliukas> 2 or so months ago
[00:01:35] <FireflyST> guess I can toss this CD sun sent me a while ago then
[00:02:05] <pauliukas> stupid download requires login...
[00:02:08] <Triskelios> pauliukas: upgrades still unfortunately need the DVD image (although Live Upgrade lets you do it in the background)
[00:02:28] <pauliukas> And they don't even have CDs available?
[00:02:35] <pauliukas> What if I don't want Postegre and all that crap.
[00:03:30] <Triskelios> both a single DVD and multiple CDs are provided
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[00:06:11] <pauliukas> Darn, I forgot my password.
[00:06:51] <palowoda> Consider it a feature.
[00:07:20] <FireflyST> then use the installer to remove it
[00:07:27] <FireflyST> or pkgrm
[00:07:54] <Triskelios> brb, going on campus and maybe to dinner
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[00:08:15] <FireflyST> all that crap only eats up a few gigs anyway, why bother
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[00:12:32] <pauliukas> "Sorry, your Username and password could not be authenticated. Please try again later or create a new account now."
[00:12:34] <pauliukas> Geez.
[00:15:06] <FireflyST> what are you trying to do?
[00:15:20] <palowoda> Remember his password.
[00:15:34] <FireflyST> wificonfig
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[00:17:53] <SYS64738> hi, anyone who use qmail  + simscan under solaris ?
[00:18:04] <FireflyST> pauliukas: use wificonfig
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[00:20:29] <palowoda> Does wificonfig support wpa configuration?
[00:20:32] <Pietro_S> or even better inetmenu (gui thing)
[00:21:09] <jmcp> wificonfig is deprecated, as far as I'm aware
[00:21:12] <jmcp> use dladm
[00:21:22] <jmcp> palowoda: not all the wifi drivers support wpa yet
[00:21:26] <palowoda> There is an echo in this room.
[00:21:50] <Gman> jmcp, i would now pay someone to provide support for iwi wpa :(
[00:21:59] <Pietro_S> palowoda: right now only one WPA type (configuration) is supported, but don't know which one it is (it's the one which my university is using ...)
[00:22:21] <FireflyST> is WPA more secure?
[00:22:26] <jmcp> Gman: ditto
[00:22:36] <FireflyST> I've always just used WEP as it seems like a lowest common denominator
[00:23:07] <Gman> when you're roaming you don't always have that option :)
[00:23:17] <palowoda> Well it only takes 10min to break into WEP, and about a day for WPA1.
[00:23:27] <FireflyST> ahh
[00:23:31] <FireflyST> I guess that's my answer
[00:23:39] <sommerfeld> WEP is useful in preventing inadvertant use of your WLAN
[00:23:47] <sommerfeld> but not much more than that.
[00:23:53] <FireflyST> how does one check on the status of what's supported for a particular wifi driver?
[00:23:56] <Pietro_S> FireflyST: well for home WEP is enough, for bigger target I wouldn't reccoment it
[00:24:12] <LeftWing> Depends on what you do at home.
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[00:25:09] <elektronkind> here's a kernel programming question - what's a decent way of making a thread sleep itself for a number of seconds before carrying on? (such as in a polling routine in a while() loop, waiting 30 seconds before looping again)
[00:25:35] <elektronkind> obviously, calling sleep() isn't an option... I can't seem to find its kernel-land analog
[00:26:27] <DoYouKnow> are there any projects to start anything up like WinFS for solaris?
[00:27:03] <jmcp> what's winfs?
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[00:27:18] <LeftWing> Wasn't WinFS the dead-in-the-water Database As A Filesystem thing?
[00:27:19] <the-decider> hmm, no ksleep?
[00:27:21] <sommerfeld> electronkind: well, in general polling is a bad idea (doesn't scale up very well), but look at: cv_timedwait(), timeout(), qtimeout(),
[00:27:27] <bda> Relational database as filesystem.
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[00:27:40] <stevel> leftwing: no :(
[00:27:45] <the-decider> sommerfeld: he's running something every minute or so ;)
[00:27:48] <stevel> as far as i know, we plan to ship all our future filesystems on time
[00:27:54] <bda> ha
[00:27:57] <the-decider> haha
[00:28:12] <LeftWing> stevel: heh
[00:28:15] <elektronkind> sommerfeld: thanks for the tip
[00:28:21] <stevel> but in all seriousness - no i haven't heard of anything like WinFS for Solaris
[00:28:26] <sommerfeld> the-decider: and if you have a thousand things running something every minute ...
[00:28:37] <the-decider> sommerfeld: you have linux.
[00:28:46] <richlowe> and you're still waking up for possibly no reason.
[00:28:51] <jbk> stevel: so the whole 'zfs will be included wiht s10 fcs' was just heresay? :)
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[00:29:02] <richlowe> jbk: Sun's marketing said it, so of course.
[00:29:07] <the-decider> hmm.  what would be better is a trigger/callback you could register when changes occur in the interface list
[00:29:10] <stevel> jbk: ;)
[00:29:15] <LeftWing> Sun's Heresay Department.
[00:29:16] <sommerfeld> jbk: note that he limited it to *future* filesystems.
[00:29:17] <stevel> (note i prefaced it with 'future')
[00:29:38] <sommerfeld> the-decider: that would be known as a PF_ROUTE socket.
[00:29:42] <jbk> i stand corrected :)
[00:29:48] * LeftWing grumbles something about the Ministry of Truth and wanders off.
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[00:30:21] <elektronkind> sommerfeld: that's pfhooks... can't use it :)
[00:30:22] <sommerfeld> is "Heresay" some sort of cross between Heresy and Hearsay?
[00:30:31] <sommerfeld> elektronkind: no, that's not pfhooks.
[00:30:38] <the-decider> needs to use something that's been around since GA.
[00:30:49] <sommerfeld> PF_ROUTE has been around since nearly the dawn of time.
[00:30:57] <LeftWing> sommerfeld: It might be, if I wasn't woken up not long ago to fix a prod webserver. ;P
[00:30:57] <FireflyST> is inetmenu what comes up when you click on "network"?
[00:31:02] <the-decider> did 4.1.3 have it? ;)
[00:31:03] <the-decider> hehe
[00:32:21] <sommerfeld> the oldest delta in rts.c is from 1994
[00:34:01] * the-decider found an article entitled "Red Hat Predicts Death of Solaris" when searching around for PF_ROUTE and "solaris" ;)
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[00:36:44] <comay> sommerfeld: ah rts.c, with lots of uncollapsed deltas...
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[00:37:49] <sommerfeld> As well as merge turds with your name on them :-)
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[00:39:26] <comay> yeah... those were the good ol' days :-P
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[00:42:08] <palowoda> Kind of wierd you have to have the ide DVD/CD after the boot drive (ide/sata) or the install software will exit saying "Cannot find install software".  This started with build 72.
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[00:44:01] <sommerfeld> after?  in the bios boot device list?
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[00:44:51] <palowoda> No, I had my DVD in channel 1 master and the boot drive in channel 1 slave.  I had to move the dvd physically to channel 2 master before the install would work.
[00:45:20] <eboutilier_> I saw that too... I was trying to install from a USB DVD drive... I think
[00:45:33] <palowoda> I bombed out just before loading java.
[00:46:41] <eboutilier_> But I was also having problems on that box with the device detection in general (likely buggy BIOS), so I wasn't sure if it was "me" or Neveda
[00:46:54] <palowoda> Drove me nuts becuase I had two identical systems and the first one upgraded and the second system did not.   And that was the only difference.
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[00:47:57] <nrubsig> wow
[00:48:09] <nrubsig>  #opensolaris /op meeting ?
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[00:48:45] <nrubsig> kupfer: ping!
[00:48:53] <kupfer> hi Roland
[00:49:01] <nrubsig> kupfer: Hi!
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[01:00:22] <CIA-24> raghuram: 6593961 Transmit performance doesn't scale with increasing number of TCP connections in guest domain
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[01:26:52] <RElling> palowoda: methinks that is a symptom of CR 6600169 Updated P1 driver/ata-x86 CD/DVD Drive not detected in B72
[01:27:35] <jmcp> palowoda: what sort of hardware do you have where you're seeing this problem?
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[01:28:43] <palowoda> jmcp: http://www.fiver.net/misc/solarisamdbox.html
[01:29:04] <jmcp> ta
[01:29:58] <palowoda> Yeah the dup bug 6600178 is where it crashes.
[01:30:14] <richlowe> huh.
[01:30:26] <jmcp> was it the nforce-based system or the ECS-based system?
[01:30:39] <palowoda> ECS via based.
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[01:32:24] <palowoda> I've been upgrading these systems sence build what 64 every build with no problem and it very reproduceable at build 72.
[01:33:28] <jmcp> I'm working with the RE for that bug
[01:33:41] <jmcp> it's concerning, and we definitely want it root-caused + fixed
[01:34:13] <palowoda> Kiawi said it had something to do with optimizing Xen boot.
[01:34:56] <jmcp> (a) he's guessing, and (b) how about we actually do some proper root-cause analysis
[01:35:14] <palowoda> The DVD will be online loading just to the point it exists to the shell and than the dvd device disappears.  That's why it can
[01:35:20] <palowoda> 't  find the software.
[01:35:42] <dlg> jmcp: outrageous
[01:35:52] <jmcp> and I bet you see several instances of         gda: [ID xxxxx kern.notice] Vendor Gen-ATA error code: 0x3
[01:35:53] <sommerfeld> jmcp: the evaluation of 6600169 didn't look all that voodooish.
[01:36:11] <palowoda> Nope didn't see that.
[01:36:39] <palowoda> Actaully I should have looked at dmesg when I was down there.
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[01:37:38] <jmcp> sommerfeld: we're still looking at it though
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[01:38:51] <FireflyST> Triskelios: you around?
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[01:40:17] <sommerfeld> jmcp: as well you should.  i get the impression that there's an annoying amount of variation between different drives in this area.
[01:40:34] <jmcp> yes
[01:41:06] <palowoda> You mean dvd drives?
[01:41:24] <jmcp> dvd and cd
[01:43:55] <palowoda> That's what is messing with my brain.  Both systems had the same model dvd drive.  But the system that failed had the dvd first in the chain.  What does the install software do reset the drives at that point?
[01:44:14] <jmcp> the installer shouldn't
[01:44:23] <jmcp> the kernel .... seems to think that it needs to
[01:44:34] <palowoda> Something toke it offline.
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[01:46:47] <sommerfeld> i recall also significant voodoo relating to parallel ATA master vs slave roles.
[01:47:04] <sommerfeld> (master/slave/only, even0
[01:47:32] <jmcp> yeah
[01:54:28] <nrubsig> what does "TBD" mean ? "To Be Done" ?
[01:54:37] <Tempt> To Be Deleted
[01:54:42] <jbk> determined
[01:54:51] <wesolows> determined
[01:54:55] <Tempt> I prefer deleted.
[01:55:00] <wesolows> though any of the above could be a determination
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[01:56:27] <sommerfeld> nrubsig: it's a polite way of saying "I don't know yet"
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[01:59:16] <Tempt> "Real Soon Now"
[01:59:55] <palowoda> Heh, I remeber one day reading the fixed field of a Mozillia bug in bugtrak and the fix field said: "To be fixed in a future release".  :)
[02:00:20] <nrubsig> palowoda: that's the alias for "noone cares"
[02:00:44] <palowoda> I must admit it was creative.
[02:01:03] <pauliukas> This sucks... The OpenSolaris download is taking FOREVER!
[02:01:20] <palowoda> You must have remember your password.
[02:01:47] <pauliukas> Aha... I made it sent my username. I had 3 users binded to my email.
[02:01:55] <pauliukas> I played a game of human bruteforcing
[02:02:43] <palowoda> Well tell everybody to get offline so your download can go faster.
[02:03:08] <pauliukas> Everyone is offline.
[02:03:10] <palowoda> Or wait till midnight PST.
[02:03:16] <pauliukas> 1.5mbit DSL goes as fast as 1.5mbit.
[02:03:32] <pauliukas> I'll contemplating if I should go to the datacenter to download this, lol
[02:03:36] <wesolows> the problem is almost certainly on the server end
[02:03:49] <wesolows> SDLC is horribly, painfully slow
[02:04:02] <wesolows> you could download opensolaris from many other places, but presumably you want Solaris Express?
[02:04:17] <alanc> I thought it was supposed to have some akamai-like service to make it go faster, but it doesn't seem to help much
[02:04:23] <pauliukas> No, man. My Internet goes as fast as 1.5mbit.
[02:04:24] <pauliukas> My line itself.
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[02:04:26] <wesolows> no, it doesn't
[02:04:29] <pauliukas> It's as fast as it goes.
[02:04:33] <pauliukas> The phone lines here are old.
[02:04:39] <wesolows> oh, you're getting 1.5mbit/s?
[02:04:52] <pauliukas> wesolows: Read above. I've been trying to tell that
[02:04:53] <wesolows> that's plenty fast, really.  A DVD image takes, what, 6-8 hours at that speed?
[02:05:40] <pauliukas> It's fast enough for most browsing, but still pretty slow.
[02:05:45] <pauliukas> Yeah. 7 hours.
[02:05:54] <palowoda> Well great to know.  When are you moving closer to the CO?
[02:06:00] <pauliukas> CO?
[02:06:20] <pauliukas> Central Office for DSL?
[02:06:22] <palowoda> centeral office.  To get a faster dsl curcuit
[02:06:29] <pauliukas> I got fiber running in my street.
[02:06:37] <pauliukas> I live like 50 meters from the switch.
[02:06:44] <pauliukas> I saw a tech guy there once. I asked him about the speed.
[02:06:49] <palowoda> You have fiber and wasting you time with 1.5m dsl?
[02:06:51] <pauliukas> He's like "Well, the phone lines are old"
[02:06:56] <pauliukas> palowoda: Metro fiber...
[02:07:01] <pauliukas> It costs like $200 or so a month.
[02:07:17] <palowoda> I'll not stoping you from getting it.
[02:07:18] <pauliukas> Plus installation, plus you need a real router with Fiber interface.
[02:07:53] <pauliukas> It might make sense if a few friends/neighbors would chip in.
[02:08:19] <palowoda> Oh you just need more money in general.
[02:08:22] <pauliukas> lol
[02:08:33] <pauliukas> I got 100mbit at the datacenter.
[02:08:42] <pauliukas> I go there if I ever get the need for really fast speed.
[02:08:42] <sommerfeld> there are cheaper FTTH services in some areas.
[02:08:52] <jmcp> not in Australia :(
[02:08:53] <pauliukas> I'm in Canada, so yeah...
[02:09:08] <pauliukas> They're starting residential fiber downtown. But only in like 1 street or so.
[02:09:22] <pauliukas> It's $70 a month. and they only allow you 40GB or so bandwidth per month.
[02:09:31] <pauliukas> I pull way more than 40GB with my 1.5mbit :-P
[02:10:27] <palowoda> Ahh 6mbit dsl 5 static ip's is about 80.00 a month in the sf bay area.
[02:10:48] <pauliukas> Ouch.
[02:10:57] <pauliukas> My DSL is supposed to be 5mbit/800kbit.
[02:11:01] <wesolows> the important thing will be non-telco ISPs
[02:11:03] <pauliukas> $50 CND per month
[02:11:17] <wesolows> if the telco is the only ISP that offers service, it'll always be crippled somehow, no matter how fast it is
[02:11:24] <jbk> heh yes
[02:11:29] <jbk> telco's suck :)
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[02:11:47] <wesolows> no servers, limits (published or secret), monitoring, censorship, etc.
[02:11:50] <pauliukas> The good thing about the DSL here is that it's not crippled in any way.
[02:11:53] <pauliukas> Cable, here. Is.
[02:12:24] <wesolows> and of course the "TOS" which always say something like "we aren't actually obligated to provide you with any service, and you still have to pay us, because this is for entertainment only."
[02:12:50] <pauliukas> hahaha
[02:12:51] <pauliukas> yeah
[02:13:25] <richlowe> and the business package that charges you several hundred or more dollars for the same service with less offensive terms.
[02:14:04] <palowoda> Well usally you get a sync service with business but not always.
[02:14:10] <delewis> not to mention if telcos are the only ISPs, that gives the government one source for all surveillence.
[02:14:29] <delewis> *cough* Worldnet, Verizon, etc. *cough*
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[02:14:51] <pauliukas> AT&T. Your World. Delivered to the NSA.
[02:14:58] <sommerfeld> wesolows: at least around here you can pay extra for business grade service not subjected to port filtering
[02:15:06] <palowoda> elfsign *cough*
[02:15:15] <wesolows> yes...but it's almost a punitive cost difference
[02:15:26] <delewis> pauliukas: worse, they're getting paid by the government to violate the rights afford to citizens.
[02:15:30] <delewis> What a wonderful world we live in.
[02:15:37] <wesolows> especially when you can just do business with a non-telco ISP at residential prices without restrictions
[02:15:48] <pauliukas> That's exactly why I live in Canada.
[02:15:58] <pauliukas> I vote with my money... Err... Living place... whatever.
[02:16:01] <delewis> pauliukas: it still effects you.
[02:16:10] <pauliukas> I know.
[02:16:16] <pauliukas> But not as badly as in the states.
[02:16:22] <wesolows> pauliukas: that won't help you a bit.  You're a province of the United States without even the pathetic scraps of freedom the states still have.
[02:16:26] <delewis> any time you communicate with a WorldNet or Verizon customer, the government has the capability to intercept those communications.
[02:16:50] <wesolows> Also, if you think your government is actually independent, you're as naive as a toddler.
[02:17:01] <wesolows> It does what our government tells it to do, and that's that.
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[02:17:45] <delewis> if Canada were independent, they would've abandoned NAFTA by now.
[02:18:08] <DoYouKnow> notice that all the reverse lookup sites are gone
[02:18:17] <pauliukas> Alright great..
[02:18:20] <pauliukas> Australia ftw.
[02:18:28] <DoYouKnow> where you can look up the provider and other info from a number
[02:18:39] <pauliukas> Just do a traceroute?
[02:18:46] <DoYouKnow> no, for phone numbers
[02:18:48] <pauliukas> jmcp: Can I live in your basement?
[02:18:51] <pauliukas> Oh that...
[02:18:57] <delewis> Australia isn't independent, either. They were one of the initial members of the ECHELON program. :-P
[02:19:04] <pauliukas> They still have that in Canada. Don't know about US.
[02:19:11] <pauliukas> delewis: So we're all doomed, right?
[02:19:24] <richlowe> unless wesolows finds himself an island, yes.
[02:19:27] <palowoda> Blame Canada.
[02:19:31] <pauliukas> Let's just go back to harnessing the power of Solaris while the world is being destroyed.
[02:19:46] <jmcp> pauliukas: (a) don't have a basement, and (b) I don't share my adsl2/2+ connection :-)
[02:19:52] * jmcp is a selfish ba*d
[02:19:58] <wesolows> delewis: Australians love being deputies.  The big old daddy sheriff likes sharing a cell with you overnight, and John Howard seems to like it too!
[02:20:10] <pauliukas> jmcp: Alright, sorry. attic, closet, whatever.
[02:20:17] <pauliukas> I don't need ADSL. I'll go find an open wifi.
[02:20:33] <jmcp> heh
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[02:21:16] <Tempt> and Australia signed up for an extra-dose of US law
[02:21:27] <Tempt> we even donate our citizens to rot in US jails for "piracy"
[02:21:57] <palowoda> Where else would you get good examples?
[02:22:07] <delewis> that's part of the 'you're either with us or against us'
[02:22:19] <Tempt> If you offend US companies you'll be send to die in the US now, that's the message our government tells us. And it won't change until we have a leader willing to remove the US fist from his pudgy arse.
[02:22:25] <wesolows> if I were an Australian I'd be ashamed of my government.  Just as I'm even more ashamed of the American one, which seems to represent people I sincerely wish were rotting in the hell that only they believe in.
[02:22:30] <palowoda> But we have lawyers.
[02:22:32] <pauliukas> Actually, this gave me a good idae.
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[02:22:43] <pauliukas> I should scout for open wifi. I might get lucky and find someone on Cable
[02:22:47] <Tempt> If I could think of a country to immigrate to, I think I'd probably leave.
[02:22:53] * delewis wonders if anyone that believes that has actually heard of the 'false dilemma'
[02:23:42] <delewis> I'm quite certain the majority of Congress is not literate, given they're churning out bills that violate the constitution on a daily basis almost.
[02:24:14] <wesolows> Tempt: Let me know if you're serious about freedom.  I've been thinking for a long time about getting together a small group of hardcore libertarians, buying sovereignty over an island from a cash-needy government, and starting our own government.
[02:24:34] <wesolows> You know how to get hold of me if you want to pursue this.
[02:24:47] <Tempt> wesolows: Does this involve blackjack and/or hookers?
[02:24:55] <DoYouKnow> there's nothing in the constitution that says you can't open up a computer, which is something that prooves mathematical and logical theorems, and let it do it's thing
[02:24:57] <wesolows> Never mind then.
[02:24:58] <delewis> the president know has the power to implement martial law without the support of the individual state governments, the power to appoint Congress members if a disaster should 'wipe them out', and the power to cease all assets of anyone that 'henders' the war effort.
[02:25:04] <delewis> s/know/now/
[02:25:57] <boyd> Is "henders" a new legal term? :)
[02:26:11] <delewis> boyd: :-)
[02:26:33] <DoYouKnow> I was watching this guy from sun microsystems speak on DTrace on google video, and he made the excellent point that computers are designed for evaluating mathematical theorem
[02:26:34] <DoYouKnow> s
[02:26:53] <DoYouKnow> can you outlaw a theorem from being executed?
[02:26:57] <jmcp> DoYouKnow:  http://blogs.sun.com/bmc/entry/dtrace_at_google
[02:27:07] <delewis> it's ambiguous, and that's the problem. Plus, the Treasury Department is responsible for the ceasing. The problem with that is the Treasury Department is only meant to be relevant to citizens, so obviously, the goal is to have citizens' assets ceased.
[02:28:00] <delewis> s/cease/seize/
[02:29:23] <DoYouKnow> I mean, proof that information can flow from host to host without humanely contact alone is enough to say that it's impossible to posess software
[02:30:32] <palowoda> The only way information can flow through the interent is if it was made up of a series of tubes.
[02:30:45] <DoYouKnow> yeah, it does even flow
[02:30:56] <DoYouKnow> it like "appears"
[02:34:04] <DoYouKnow> but you can also go way out there and look at it like, we've become symbiotic with technology, and like any biological domain, it's been incorporated into our "personal space" and geopolitical logic
[02:36:17] <DoYouKnow> "You're encroaching on my domain", etc.
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[02:37:40] <palowoda> So you found the Dtrace video..
[02:38:06] <DoYouKnow> not that it's good to do anything illegal with computers, I am just arguing for that viewpoint to show what insane havoc a philosophy class can do on the mind
[02:38:07] <pauliukas> congrats
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[02:41:00] <pauliukas> Who made that video>
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[02:50:05] <bda> Bryan Cantrill.
[02:50:17] <bda> aka bmc
[02:50:20] <bda> (Great talk, btw)
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[02:51:45] <palowoda> I've always enjoyed Bryan's style of public speaking.
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[02:52:12] <pauliukas> I was about to say the opposite, but okay.
[02:52:39] <bda> The opposite of what?
[02:52:57] <richlowe> palowoda: the less he talks about what he should be talking about, the more interesting the talks seem to be.
[02:53:04] <bda> Indeed. ;)
[02:53:04] <richlowe> someone should follow him around and force him onto tangents.
[02:53:05] <pauliukas> lol
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[02:53:25] <bda> richlowe: But then his productivity drops and I suspect no one wants that.
[02:53:41] <FireflyST> Does wpa_supplicant allow the wpi driver to use WPA?
[02:53:50] <pauliukas> Supposedly.
[02:54:16] <palowoda> FireflyST: I believe it was with only on Intel based card, what the 3985?
[02:54:34] <pauliukas> That speech about dtrace is actually interesting.
[02:55:05] <FireflyST> palowoda: I have that particular card
[02:55:24] <palowoda> I think it was supported at build 69 and greater.
[02:55:54] <FireflyST> awesome, I'll have to see if that works tonight
[02:55:55] <palowoda> Search it out in the laptop-discuss area.
[02:56:28] <FireflyST> would inetmenu be a way of setting it up?
[03:02:39] <palowoda> FireflyST: You probably want to use dladm
[03:06:52] <FireflyST> ok
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[03:12:12] * boyd cheers Linus
[03:12:15] <boyd> for this: http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.comp.version-control.git/57643/focus=57918
[03:12:46] <Triskelios> FireflyST: hi
[03:13:25] <FireflyST> Triskelios: Was there something actually wrong with the driver?
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[03:15:09] <Triskelios> FireflyST: definitely if it complained about the codec...
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[03:16:53] <unixware> hi dudes and dudettes too :)
[03:17:20] <unixware> does any one knows a good place for vps?
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[03:20:05] <pauliukas> Solaris VPS?
[03:20:20] <bda> Virtual Private Servers.
[03:20:27] <pauliukas> I know what it means...
[03:20:32] <pauliukas> But most VPSes run Linux.
[03:20:47] <bda> Indeed.
[03:20:51] <bda> unixware: Joyent.
[03:21:01] <unixware> or bsd?
[03:21:27] <Tempt> sparezone.com
[03:21:40] <pauliukas> netwisp.com
[03:21:42] <unixware> lets see :)
[03:21:47] <Tempt> boyd: Haha, your pro-linus link is down for .. 'maintenance'
[03:22:08] <boyd> In it, he pours s@#t on C++
[03:22:18] <boyd> Every second site on the net seems to have linked to it
[03:22:23] <pauliukas> ONLY 4 hours and 15 minutes left for OpenSolaris download.. :-(
[03:22:35] <pauliukas> Every second without Solaris is like a knife through my heart.
[03:22:44] <FireflyST> that's creepy
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[03:22:47] <boyd> heh
[03:22:48] <FireflyST> you need a girlfriend
[03:22:49] <pauliukas> lol
[03:22:59] <nachox> at home at last, such a long day!
[03:23:02] <pauliukas> I know, man. I'm too ugly, though,
[03:23:06] <boyd> Tempt: I think it's /.ed
[03:23:07] <pauliukas> I've never ever had a g/f.
[03:23:14] <FireflyST> well, there are ugly girls too
[03:23:23] <pauliukas> Yeah, but guess what.
[03:23:24] <FireflyST> go get one
[03:23:26] <Gman> you won't find one reading IRC all day
[03:23:29] <pauliukas> They all want amazing men.
[03:23:36] <FireflyST> lies
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[03:23:43] <pauliukas> I've seen these fat as hell chicks all dreaming about slim and "sexy" men.
[03:23:46] <boyd> Chicks don't care about ugly, they just want l33t h@x0r skillz
[03:24:00] <pauliukas> That's the problem, they don't.
[03:24:07] <boyd> D'ya think?
[03:24:17] <wesolows> boyd: lies!  They want the money that l33t h4x0r sk1llz bring, so they can show off their fancy jewelry to their men on the side.
[03:24:26] <boyd> lol
[03:24:46] <FireflyST> so, simply go out and un-retard yourself socially and solve the problem
[03:25:10] <wesolows> you could do what FireflyST suggests, but you'll be a lot happier if you hang out here and expand your knowledge and skills instead.
[03:25:22] <Tempt> boyd: So what is it all about, anyway?
[03:25:35] <boyd> I'm trying to find a reference elsewhere
[03:25:42] <boyd> That's not super-abbreviated
[03:25:51] <wesolows> if you MUST go out, remember the cardinal rule: expensive whiskey, cheap women.  For GOD'S SAKE don't get it backwards.
[03:26:42] <bda> ha.
[03:26:46] <boyd> Tempt:  Basically he says something like "C++ is crap and people who think it's good are people I don't want to work with. In fact, if there were no other reason to use C over C++ it would be enough that it keeps C++ lovers out"
[03:26:57] <wesolows> boyd++
[03:27:05] <bda> What you need to do is take bi-annual trips to Tiajuana, like merlyn.
[03:27:12] <bda> For the express purpose of hiring Mexican whores.
[03:27:21] <wesolows> ohhhhh.....kaaaaaaaay
[03:27:27] <bda> Then, a few times a year, get drunk and talk about how it's totally okay on IRC.
[03:27:36] <boyd> For out Antipodean readers: s/Mexican/Thai/
[03:27:42] <bda> wesolows: Your suggestion is probaby way cheaper in the long run.
[03:27:44] <FireflyST> no, use myspace
[03:27:47] <bda> lul
[03:27:48] <wesolows> I'm pretty sure you've gone too far.
[03:28:03] <boyd> Probably.
[03:28:14] <bda> Reality is harsh.
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[03:28:17] <FireflyST> cause really, I'm sure there's some emo goth wanna be nerd gril willing to have at least 100 of your babies
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[03:28:37] <bda> Swarm of Babies.
[03:28:44] <wesolows> FireflyST: sure...each one's a fuckin' check each month, courtesy of some ballbusting family court judge.
[03:29:37] <boyd> So, anyway, Yay on the Barcelona announcement.
[03:30:02] <wesolows> indeed
[03:30:28] <unixware> is this a opensolaris chanel? 0.0
[03:30:43] <wesolows> unixware: most of the time
[03:30:46] <FireflyST> I didn't say HAVE babies, I said willing to have your babies
[03:31:01] <boyd> Now all I want is someone to show me a MB that can take a barcelona quadcore and has all devices that are supported by opensolaris and I'm in.
[03:31:02] <FireflyST> and it was an excuse to use the old 'at least 100' meme
[03:31:13] <boyd> There's a meme?
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[03:31:32] <FireflyST> yes, it's an old wikipedia vandalism meme
[03:31:38] <wesolows> boyd: It doesn't actually seem too hard to find that if you're willing to go full-size ATX.  uATX is hit or miss - but rarely supports any really exotic CPUs
[03:31:58] <Tempt> What about that microATX that people were building into Arias a while back?
[03:32:02] <Tempt> The quad Opteron one?
[03:32:03] <nachox> i will only say one thing about barcelona, it was about fscking time
[03:32:10] <boyd> Full size is fine for me... but I'm so PC HW challenged that I don't know what's what
[03:32:26] <Tempt> boyd: This is a message that you should stick to what you know
[03:32:30] <Tempt> boyd: SPARC is calling.
[03:32:33] <boyd> nachox: it improves filsystem check times?
[03:32:39] <FireflyST> I got lost after the 486
[03:32:58] <wesolows> actually, nothing much has changed since then
[03:33:04] <jbk> what, you can't keep the 990823432 different socket types straight? :)
[03:33:05] <wesolows> faster clocks, more power, more heat, etc.
[03:33:08] <nachox> boyd, sure, with all the new sse enhancements it should :)
[03:33:08] <wesolows> nothing new here
[03:33:09] <FireflyST> I could tune the hell out of a DOS system but fuck this windows shit
[03:33:38] <wesolows> jbk: there are only two sockets: the kind that your CPU has, and the kind of mainboards they're making today.
[03:33:41] <boyd> That should be an Opensolaris slogan... "fsck this windows shit"
[03:33:42] <dlg> whtas to tune in dos/
[03:33:42] <FireflyST> no, there's a lot more, memory channel speed, FSB speed, bridge chips etc
[03:34:18] <FireflyST> dlg: a lot when you're doing up config files
[03:34:19] <Tempt> dlg: Memory
[03:34:21] <Tempt> dlg: MEMORY
[03:34:26] <Tempt> dlg: (think QEMM)
[03:34:31] <dlg> bah
[03:34:39] * dlg cant recall things that long ago
[03:34:42] <FireflyST> hissing himem
[03:35:05] <Tempt> dlg: You obviously don't have an old P-II tucked in a corner with DOS installed on it and a pile of games for those nostalgia sessions.
[03:35:11] <wesolows> loadhi.sys
[03:35:16] <wesolows> emm386.exe
[03:35:21] <DoYouKnow> himem.sys
[03:35:22] <wesolows> expanded vs extended
[03:35:23] <wesolows> oh yeah
[03:35:24] <Tempt> Nah, QEMM for the win.
[03:35:30] <Tempt> None of this emm386 shit
[03:35:36] <Tempt> dos=high,umb
[03:35:39] <wesolows> qemm FTW, except when it was qemm for the crash
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[03:35:44] <Tempt> devicehigh=....
[03:36:07] <wesolows> ahh, those were the days
[03:36:09] <Tempt> I think slashdot said freepascal has had another release today, so you can relive the old turbo pascal on DOS days.
[03:36:10] * DoYouKnow prefers Velocity's Jet Fighter
[03:36:16] <Tempt> JF2.
[03:36:19] <Tempt> Falcon 3.0
[03:36:20] <wesolows> when you put the operating system's memory map in a bloody text file
[03:36:24] <Tempt> Gunship 2000
[03:36:25] <Tempt> TFX
[03:36:27] <tsp> lol dos, good old days of some program putting itself into graphics mode and killing the screen reader
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[03:37:43] <nachox> i have 4.5mb of crap in /lots+found in an fs that has almost no user data, i think i should start worrying :)
[03:38:37] <pauliukas> The heck...
[03:38:39] <jbk> heh.. i remember writing ansi viewers in turbo pascal :)
[03:38:40] <pauliukas> "Download failed"
[03:39:07] <jbk> and being excited at figuring out the assembly to sync the scrolling with the vertical blanking signal to make it smoother
[03:41:48] <Tempt> yep
[03:42:11] <Tempt> don't forget changing the background colour at the magical time to get scrolly pretty bars and stuff
[03:42:19] <Tempt> hmm
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[03:42:26] <Tempt> sol10u4/x86 still downloading.
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[03:43:03] <Tempt> I think I still had the inspiration to actually write code back then.
[03:43:08] <nachox> when did you start?
[03:43:15] <nachox> downloading i mean
[03:43:20] <Tempt> yesterday
[03:43:50] <Tempt> I'm beyond caring now. I got the SPARC release quickly, that's all that matters really.
[03:43:55] <nachox> dial up?
[03:44:00] <nachox> hehe
[03:44:04] <Tempt> I can always put SXCE on the x86 box
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[04:07:36] <unixware> http://www.digitalz.org/images/adictopc.jpg
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[04:17:23] <diomac> I've just grabbed nv_72 x86 and it's just booting to a grub prompt.. this doesn't seem like its normal behavior
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[04:33:30] <tsp> is there a way to recompress a zfs filesystem with different compression methods?
[04:33:35] <tsp> i.e. recompress what's already there
[04:34:12] <jbk> backup/restore
[04:34:22] <richlowe> or change the method, and re-write the data some other way.
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[04:38:51] <diomac> is there a trick to burning the dvd iso's of b72?
[04:39:31] <richlowe> iso, there's only one of them, it's just in 3 bits.
[04:40:35] <jamesd> wow a full os in only 3 bits? that is less than nibble. ;-)
[04:41:35] <jamesd> tsp or move to another filesystem with the new compression method set on it...  even if both filesystems are on the same pool.
[04:41:49] <diomac> ah ok i know whats up now
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[04:44:27] <tsp> ah
[04:44:38] <tsp> so it'll recompress when the data is written
[04:45:46] <jamesd> yeap.
[04:46:38] * jamesd thinks I must be in a large company, the traceroute from my home vpn connection to my favorite login machine is 9 hops away.  and about 25 miles.
[04:52:51] <FireflyST> diomac: what system are you burning them on?
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[05:00:17] <ByteEnable> Can opensolaris partition drives?
[05:00:28] <ByteEnable> During install?
[05:00:54] <richlowe> if you mean Solaris Express, yes, but the installer used for SX:DE doesn't allow you to.
[05:01:03] <richlowe> use the other installer (in the grub menu, it's the second entry down, I think)
[05:03:32] <ByteEnable> hmmm....so after I partition I reboot and use the de option?
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[05:03:46] <richlowe> or just continue on with the other installer.
[05:04:13] <ByteEnable> will the other installer install the developer edition stuff?
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[05:13:19] <Triskelios> ByteEnable: the SXCE installer omits the dev stuff, but /DeveloperTools/install_devtools.sh solves that
[05:14:23] <ByteEnable> I want to play with opensolaris on my laptop, that currently has XP and SUSE 10.2.  But I'm gonna wipe SUSE.
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[05:15:09] <ByteEnable> I haven't used Solaris since 2003.
[05:15:25] <Triskelios> you're in for some big changes
[05:15:32] <ByteEnable> I hope so.
[05:15:39] <ByteEnable> for the better?
[05:16:19] <Triskelios> well, it's actually usable modern desktop standards
[05:16:22] <jamesd> ByteEnable, i would have to assume so, because even you have came back to give it a try.
[05:16:42] <ByteEnable> I never liked CDE, even in the 80's when it came out.  The gnome screen shots look pretty decent.
[05:16:45] <Triskelios> *usable by
[05:19:18] <ByteEnable> The download is painful.
[05:21:56] <Triskelios> yeah, export restrictions is the cited reason for requiring going through the SDLC...
[05:21:59] <tsp> wow, moving some things with compression set to gzip-9 kills this box
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[05:24:52] <e^ipi> hey, that's pretty rockin'
[05:25:12] <e^ipi> AMD wants to release the ati gpu specs
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[05:32:16] <Tempt> e^ipi: So everyone can enjoy slow GPUs? <duck>
[05:41:31] <e^ipi> heh
[05:42:14] <jbk> heh..
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[05:42:38] <jbk> i'm curious if you were to run xp under xen, how much of a hit you'd take for games..
[05:42:54] <jbk> (on a cpu w/ hw virtualization support)
[05:43:11] <Tempt> about as much hit as a louisville slugger delivers to a face in the hands of a professional thug.
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[06:14:54] <boyd> Well, that's fun. The S10 11/06 release notes mention a bug that SunSolve denies the existence of
[06:15:22] <richlowe> they still link to alan's blog, too.
[06:15:27] <boyd> :O
[06:15:56] <Tempt> Which bug?
[06:16:02] <richlowe> not that docs.sun.com appears to work right now.
[06:16:13] <Tempt> sunsolve is currently dead as well
[06:16:42] <richlowe> boyd: oops, I'm thinking of the 8/07 what's new bit, obviously.
[06:16:49] <boyd> Tempt: 6341350 mentioned here: http://docs.sun.com/app/docs/doc/819-7324/6n99dt2of?a=view
[06:16:53] <richlowe> Tempt: works for me, just slowly.
[06:17:32] <Tempt> hmm
[06:17:53] <Tempt> Can you check if the v125/215/245 boxes take the same RAM as the 210/240?
[06:19:22] <richlowe> doesn't look like it, but I might also be wrong.
[06:19:23] <jmcp> gimme a sec
[06:20:19] <dlg> mmmv215
[06:21:52] <jmcp> Tempt: you want this page - http://sunsolve.sun.com/handbook_private/Devices/Memory/MEM_SunFireV2x0.html#7702
[06:21:57] <jmcp> have to login first though
[06:22:37] <dlg> the v125 is a different beast to the 2x5 and 445s iirc
[06:24:05] <richlowe> jmcp: didn't he have me look because he couldn't get to sunsolve?
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[06:35:47] <Doc> fast, free, wifi.  pick one.
[06:35:56] * dlg laugh
[06:36:54] <Doc> gman: you're from wlg, right?  get them to do something about this bloody wifi.   I think there's a hop in there that involves carrier pidgeons
[06:37:09] <Gman> heh
[06:37:30] <Gman> nz internet is slow
[06:37:39] <Gman> and frustrating
[06:37:47] <Gman> just as frustrating as the new sun travel process...sigh.
[06:38:03] <jmcp> richlowe: I didn't have any problems getting to sunsolve
[06:38:35] <Doc> i'm using the free stuff at the airport
[06:38:45] <Doc> all credit to them for actually providing free wifi in an airport, but this is almost unusable
[06:38:46] <Doc> new sun travel process?
[06:39:33] <Gman> Doc, seems that you now need to specify everything in suntea, and travel agent will use the details to book flights for you
[06:39:51] <Doc> umm.. isnt that the old sun travel system?
[06:39:56] <Gman> => more reliance on that hell hole of java webstart app :)
[06:40:29] <Gman> Doc, dunno, i always used it to just to get AE numbers and contact my travel agent directly
[06:40:34] <Gman> who happened to be a real person :)
[06:40:51] <Tempt> jmcp: *I* *can't* *get* *sunsolve*
[06:41:09] <jamesd> why would any one want to use the zfs gui.. i tried it tonight, and it was dog slow, okay i only have a u2.  2x300 and 2GB of ram... but still its not rocket science, though it was the first java app i have seen use more than 1 cpu at a time on my server.
[06:41:41] <Tempt> It's nice and slow
[06:41:46] <Tempt> so people have time to consider their actions
[06:41:59] <jmcp> Tempt: great, thanks for the narky clarification
[06:42:04] <jmcp> s/narky//
[06:42:11] <richlowe> jmcp: I didn't either, but seemingly...
[06:42:20] <Doc> nah.. you've always been supposed to use suntea for international
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[06:42:51] <Tempt> jmcp: Oh, I've got so much narky I've been thinking about bottling it
[06:42:56] <richlowe> Gman: might I suggest staying in NZ for more than a couple of weeks at a time.
[06:43:00] <Gman> Doc, hrm, never used the 'cto' system before
[06:43:18] <Gman> richlowe, heh
[06:43:28] <Doc> cto was for domestic only - at least when i was there
[06:44:34] <Doc> CTO sucks, and what makes it even more annoying is that Cisco uses the same system (although we call it CTN)
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[07:21:34] <trochej> http://www.kdedevelopers.org/blog/418
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[08:09:13] <quasi> trochej: so the kde people can be bought as well ;)
[08:10:15] <palowoda> oww ouch
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[08:19:22] <trochej> quasi: Actually Miguel is GNOME guy :)
[08:19:25] <trochej> palowoda: Yup, ouch
[08:19:57] <trochej> However I am interested in points that de Icaza made
[08:20:26] <trochej> Especially, that actually anyone really coding OOXML specification actually finds it quite good, and only trolls spread FUD about it
[08:20:29] <trochej> As I am no coder
[08:20:32] <trochej> I wonder
[08:21:19] <quasi> trochej: ah, whatever - still for sale :)
[08:21:51] <trochej> quasi: And I know that being in some programming project doesn't automaticly make you immune to buying :)
[08:22:19] <quasi> trochej: that just has to be BS - a spec that large has to be a nightmare to anyone implementing it
[08:30:26] <trochej> quasi: I thought so, and actually other points made by Miguel (especially about Moonlinght) seem rather weird to em
[08:30:29] <trochej> me
[08:34:40] <trochej> STill, I never coded anything much bigger than original K&R hello world example, so, you know
[08:36:17] <quasi> not having bothered much with the whole OOXML bits, but just seeing the size of it makes me pretty sure it was written to be next to impossible to implement for anyone else than M$
[08:37:23] <quasi> a pure "pr" stunt so that government orgs can pretend to support open standards while still dropping their $$ at M$
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[08:38:29] <theRealballchalk> anyone use azureus?
[08:39:06] <trochej> I did
[08:39:58] <e^ipi> what about it?
[08:44:31] <trochej> Nothing. I just used it.
[08:44:46] <WickedWicky> start wearing purple, wearing purple (8)
[08:45:36] <trochej> ?
[08:46:44] <WickedWicky> it's a song
[08:46:48] <WickedWicky> sounds fitting for sun
[08:46:57] <Tempt> ooh, beer
[08:47:07] <Tempt> Medusa, huh?
[08:47:08] <WickedWicky> gogol bordelllo rocks
[08:47:22] <WickedWicky> nevermind that
[08:47:28] <WickedWicky> you have way more interesting news
[08:47:38] <Tempt> Indeed.
[08:47:52] <Tempt> About three weeks, two weeks to wrap up here and a week to chill out and relax
[08:48:02] <WickedWicky> awesome
[08:48:23] <WickedWicky> is there someone you actually can hand over to?
[08:48:44] <Tempt> Ha.
[08:48:45] <Tempt> No.
[08:48:54] <WickedWicky> that'll be a quick hand over then
[08:48:57] <Tempt> But there's already another admin here, so I guess he'll have an increased workload for a while.
[08:48:57] <dlg> Tempt: you're moving jobs?
[08:49:05] <Tempt> dlg: Yes.
[08:49:24] <dlg> Tempt: cool. bigger toys?
[08:49:28] <Tempt> (The only way to get a week off?)
[08:49:32] <Tempt> Bigger toys, and more of them
[08:50:04] <dlg> congrats
[08:50:11] <Tempt> Cheers.
[08:50:18] <trochej> Tempt: Where to, if I may ask?
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[08:50:34] <trochej> Seems a season for changing jobs among people I know on IRC. :)
[08:50:36] <WickedWicky> trochej: as long as he can carry beer money on him, who cares? :P
[08:50:42] <Tempt> Ha!
[08:50:45] <Tempt> That's the one, indeed.
[08:52:54] <WickedWicky> congrats dude :)
[08:53:02] <Tempt> Cheers.
[08:53:08] <Tempt> There shall be a beer celebration soon.
[08:53:28] <WickedWicky> are you going to that meeting tomorrow?
[08:53:43] <Tempt> Yep.
[08:53:54] <Tempt> I'm sure there will be a couple of pints afterwards.
[08:53:57] <WickedWicky> I am not. :P
[08:54:06] <WickedWicky> Melbourne is undoable from here :P
[08:54:21] <Tempt> if you get on a plane now
[08:54:26] <Tempt> you'll be here with time to spare.
[08:54:29] <WickedWicky> technicaly its possible
[08:54:42] <trochej> Melbourne. Drat, pity I didn't know earlier :)
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[08:55:49] <WickedWicky> oh
[08:55:52] <WickedWicky> and I am 1140 euros short
[08:56:26] <WickedWicky> 1140 for a return trip to melbourne doesnt sound too bad actually
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[08:57:10] <WickedWicky> I wonder if those fligths are ever fully booked cause I queried for tomorrow as flight date, which normalyony leaves you with 1st class flights
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[08:58:17] <trochej> Drat, I need to start some local osug here. The closest it 300 km AND abroad :)
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[08:58:30] <WickedWicky> there is one in Milan soon I think
[08:59:53] <Tempt> alright, things to do and then knock off for the day.
[09:00:02] <trochej> WickedWicky: What country?
[09:00:06] <WickedWicky> Italy
[09:00:30] <WickedWicky> last time I checked anyway
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[09:01:30] <e^ipi> anybody do any dealings with the campus ambassador program?
[09:01:41] * dlg trying to
[09:02:39] <trochej> WickedWicky: I had some misunderstandings based on the fact, that some towns really exist in more than one country :)
[09:02:40] <trygvis> hwo can I figure out which memory slots that are used ona v100?
[09:02:53] <trochej> WickedWicky: Anyway, Berlin is still closer :)
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[09:03:26] <e^ipi> dlg: who's in charge of that?
[09:03:27] <quasi> Tempt: congrats
[09:04:22] <dlg> e^ipi: i dunno
[09:04:34] <dlg> i got pushed to it by my sales guy
[09:04:45] <dlg> all the real detail i know is blogs.sun.com/justin
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[09:06:03] <e^ipi> i see...
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[09:16:36] <e^ipi> screw it, i'll just email jimgris... I think he's in charge of such things
[09:17:06] <trochej> even if not, he's able to find a proper person
[09:17:15] <e^ipi> that's what I'm thinking...
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[09:20:47] <diomac> is it just me or is the partition tool in b72 seems weak compared to the older one.. ie it won't blow away ntfs partitions
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[09:23:41] <e^ipi> perhaps you are the one who is weak
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[09:23:52] <e^ipi> snatch the partition from my hand.
[09:25:34] <trochej> diomac: It's you. New installer is work in progress.
[09:26:19] <e^ipi> as in the new installer is a piece of shit & should be abandoned as soon as possible?
[09:26:20] <diomac> it may be a work in progress, but at least the old tool worked, the new one may look all nice but it don't work
[09:26:45] <e^ipi> when the replacement is worse than the thing it's replacing, someone fucked up bad
[09:26:50] <Berny> diomac: the features of the old installer slowly dribble over to the new one
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[09:27:30] <trochej> Did no one read blogs and such?
[09:27:39] <trochej> New installer is a preview.
[09:28:00] <diomac> sif read
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[09:32:44] <Berny> is biosdev in the installers miniroot?
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[09:38:40] <Gekkko> http://database.sarang.net/study/linux/asm/linux-asm.txt what do you think he used to get the justified alignment in a txt file?
[09:42:25] <FireflyST> is there a danger in running "/usr/X11/bin/Xorg -configure" that would mess up my working X setup?
[09:43:18] <FireflyST> I'm trying to install Compizand the checker program requires this
[09:43:28] <Berny> that should create a config file in the current working dir... so you should be safe
[09:43:31] <FireflyST> or rather, a valid xorg.conf
[09:45:37] <FireflyST> well, it wants this file to then be placed in /etc/X11/xorg.conf
[09:47:00] <Berny> wel safe your original config...
[09:47:26] <FireflyST> but there's no xorg.conf file currently
[09:47:39] <trochej> FireflyST: /etc/X11/.xorg.conf
[09:50:45] <Berny> no... please someone tell me this is not true... that rkvm java thing on my x2200 doesn't want to work with the dvd image because the filesize is >2GB?
[09:54:10] <quasi> Berny: sounds odd
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[09:56:07] <Berny> it does... yet it just tells me "error opening given filename: value too large for defined data type"
[09:58:03] <Berny> image mount just fine with lofi...
[09:59:23] <Tempt> FFS
[09:59:27] <quasi> could it be your local jvm?
[09:59:29] <Tempt> my x86 download errored out and stopped
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[09:59:38] <Tempt> Kill kill kill hate hurt nuke splatter maim
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[10:01:30] <cmihai> Tempt, you should have used the Java Web Start downloader (SDM) :P
[10:01:51] <Berny> quasi: prolly
[10:02:07] <Berny> Tempt: i could provide the dl :-P
[10:03:17] <cmihai> Berny, Java shouldn't have any platform dependent quirks. Or processor architecture quirks...
[10:03:51] <cmihai> Usually that's what 32 bit integers do (on 32 bit CPUs)... but Java, unlike C, doesn't take processor architecture into account...
[10:04:10] <Berny> thats what i thought
[10:04:58] <Berny> hmm, applet and javaws use the 32bit javavm...
[10:05:09] <Berny> yet there should be ways to read files >2gb
[10:06:36] <tsp> if I have a compressratio of 1.31, does that mean I'm saving 31%?
[10:08:04] <FireflyST> well, looks like compiz is wholly fucked up
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[10:08:21] <flowolf> hi all
[10:08:31] <cmihai> Berny, oh, it's an applet?
[10:08:49] <cmihai> I hate applets. They should die. People should just use Java Web Start to start full featured applications..
[10:09:05] <dlg> i hate java
[10:09:11] <Berny> na its a webstart
[10:09:31] <cmihai> Well, actually, that makes sense. Since applets can't access stuff.
[10:09:58] <flowolf> I came from linux and I'd like to try opensolaris but I'd like to know if it has some package manager like apt
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[10:10:08] <e^ipi> blastwave
[10:10:23] <e^ipi> it's a 3rd party tool, but it works
[10:10:26] <palowoda> Well compiz works with no problems for me.
[10:10:34] <cmihai> flowolf, it has package management, SVR 4 package management. On top of that (just like apt sits on top of dpkg and / or rpm) there's 3rd party tools like pkg-get from www.blastwave.org
[10:10:44] <FireflyST> it does really wierd shit
[10:10:47] <flowolf> ok, thank you
[10:11:03] <palowoda> What kind of video card?
[10:11:11] <cmihai> It also comes with a fair ammount of packages included in the DVD realease. Just grab the latest SXCE from get.opensolaris.org (SXCE 72 now).
[10:11:12] <FireflyST> none of the keyboard commands work, and it just crams all windows from all workspaces on top of each other when I start it
[10:11:36] <flowolf> that sounds good
[10:12:03] <FireflyST> palowoda: did you download a pkg or did you build it yourself?
[10:12:05] <flowolf> will project indiana put a "standard" package manager in opensolaris?
[10:12:11] <palowoda> Download it.
[10:12:15] <cmihai> HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAH
[10:12:22] <cmihai> Solaris uses STANDARD package management.
[10:12:26] <FireflyST> palowoda: from where?
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[10:12:39] <cmihai> SVR4 package format IS standard.
[10:12:51] <flowolf> cmihai: I'm talking about blastwave
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[10:13:08] <cmihai> What about blastwave? It uses SVR4 packages too.
[10:13:17] <cmihai> pkg-get is just a bad ass ksh script on top of pkgadd.
[10:13:21] <FireflyST> I think he means distribution model
[10:13:32] <cmihai> Guess what mate: apt-get isn't a package system either.
[10:13:50] <cmihai> It's a framework on top of the regular package systems (rpm, apt, etc)
[10:13:54] <Berny> .oO(lets try all java versions...)
[10:14:20] <e^ipi> Berny: java isn't that bad, it just takes a while for the JVM to load
[10:14:55] <flowolf> cmang: yep, I know
[10:14:58] <flowolf> aehm
[10:15:07] <flowolf> cmihai: yep, I know
[10:15:10] <Tempt> palowoda: Compiz? Argghgh...
[10:15:46] <Berny> e^ipi: the jvm loads fine... it just doesn't want to read the dvd image :-\
[10:16:17] <cmihai> That... sucks.
[10:16:27] <cmihai> Well, grab Solaris cd's then...
[10:16:36] <cmihai> Or JumpStart the damn thing.
[10:16:39] <flowolf> cmihai: the point is that aptitute has some cool features which dpkg hasn't
[10:16:46] <Berny> grr
[10:16:54] * cmihai throws a brick at flowolf.
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[10:16:56] <flowolf> cmihai: and I suppose it is the same with pkgadd/pkg-get
[10:17:16] <cmihai> Yeah, it resolves depends, that's nice etc etc etc.
[10:17:21] <Berny> the reason i try to boot that freaking s10 dvd is that sun support wants me to in order to verify it's really an issue with the bios and not osol related :-\
[10:17:26] <palowoda> Tempt: Well it works well for me without taking much cpu resources what can I say.
[10:18:05] <cmihai> Berny, and it has to be the DVD and not the CD?
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[10:19:18] <palowoda> FireflyST: this is the package I'm using: http://blogs.sun.com/erwann/entry/3d_desktop_compiz_fusion_0
[10:19:36] <flowolf> ok, last question: would you use opensolaris on a real server? Is it stable enought?
[10:20:06] <cmihai> No, never. Why? No support.
[10:20:09] <palowoda> And have a good hardware 3d accelorated card.
[10:20:12] <cmihai> Here's the deal mate:
[10:20:16] <Berny> cmihai: well after is spent a whole day downloading the fscker...
[10:20:21] <cmihai> Stable is just a definition. It depends on yours...
[10:20:35] <cmihai> Stable as in a stable API and features? NEVER since it's a moving target.
[10:20:48] <cmihai> Stable as in won't blow up? No guarantee, but personally I haven't had any issues.
[10:21:11] <flowolf> last one is what I'm looking for :p
[10:21:16] <cmihai> Just keep an eye on http://opensolaris.org/os/community/on/flag-days/ - changes in OpenSolaris.
[10:21:27] <cmihai> And LiveUpgrade between targets. That way, you can always boot the old one.
[10:21:30] <Berny> i mean where's the point in providing a virtual cd/dvd drive if it can't mount dvd images?
[10:21:47] <cmihai> flowolf, here, read about LiveUpgrade: http://unixsadm.blogspot.com/2007/08/liveupgrade-sxce.html
[10:22:05] <cmihai> flowolf, and there are people who use it in production (like the blokes at JoyEnt from what I hear).
[10:22:14] <flowolf> ok, cool
[10:22:31] <flowolf> I suppose that I should download SXDE
[10:22:37] <cmihai> No
[10:22:38] <cmihai> SXCE.
[10:22:46] <cmihai> SXDE is pretty much a waste of time imho.
[10:22:58] <cmihai> SXCE has all the stuff (devel tools) but it's usually newer...
[10:23:06] <flowolf> ok
[10:23:08] <flowolf> thank you
[10:24:12] <cmihai> But seriously now, if it's a mission critical production environment, like your main Oracle cluster or something or servers as a commercial platform, get Solaris 10 u4 and pay for a support contract. If it's your home server, I guess SXCE is more fun.
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[10:26:28] <palowoda> Yes Opensolaris is much more fun.  Make the paying customer suffer. :)
[10:30:19] <jamesbrink> what do i need to do to drop all of my solaris cd's into one directory for use with live update
[10:31:13] <Tempt> I don't know if u4 vs SXCE makes that much difference for SPARC users
[10:31:21] <Tempt> The biggest differences tend to be desktop and x86 related.
[10:31:40] <cmihai> jamesbrink, no...
[10:31:59] <cmihai> jamesbrink, first of all, use DVD's with LiveUpgrade, you can mount it loopback, no need to burn it.
[10:32:08] <cmihai> Second of all, if you only have cd's, just run it for each cd
[10:32:19] <jamesbrink> ok..
[10:32:29] <jamesbrink> i was just trying to get around moutning each buts thats no big deal
[10:32:32] <jamesbrink> i can live lol
[10:32:33] <jamesbrink> thanks
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[10:38:02] <jamesbrink> how can you use ludelte if the partition you were trying to upgrade on is now gone
[10:38:03] *** benr changes topic to "Latest SXCE 72 | Latest ON 72 | Starter kits:  http://get.opensolaris.org | Clipboard: http://opensolaris.pastebin.ca/ | Twitter: twitter.com/opensolaris"
[10:39:23] <palowoda> Give the full url for twitter ben.
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[10:42:17] <jamesbrink> nvm found it, had to delete it from /etc/lutab
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[10:50:54] <Tempt> oh
[10:50:55] <Tempt> man
[10:50:56] <Tempt> twitter?
[10:51:02] <Tempt> What next? The OpenSolaris myspace?
[10:51:31] <Cyrille> "mood: buggy :-("
[10:51:33] <Cyrille> ;-)
[10:51:41] <Tempt> :)
[10:52:22] <Tempt> I am going to thieve that background image though.
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[10:53:52] <quasi> I am going to go take a pic to get a similar background ;)
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[10:57:11] <Tempt> quasi: Why replicate the effort? :)
[11:00:37] <quasi> Tempt: because it would look more real
[11:01:18] <richlowe> that's not necessarily a good thing.
[11:01:35] <dlg> NIH is cool
[11:03:46] <Tempt> Hmm
[11:03:52] <Tempt> I could take photos of the front of the U20
[11:03:56] <Tempt> But ... effort.
[11:04:03] <Tempt> and it wouldn't tile properly without photoshop time
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[11:07:08] <WickedWicky> Hello polly laptop, waky waky... I have random seed for you
[11:07:19] * WickedWicky is trying to create a new dsa key
[11:08:17] <quasi> WickedWicky: time to start generating some random data then - you could try hammering your head on the keyboard ;)
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[11:09:08] <WickedWicky> dd if=/dev/random of=/tmp/blergh.txt should do it you'd think
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[11:11:15] <quasi> ehrm, isn't /dev/random usually a blocking device?
[11:11:41] <Berny> HA I knew it!
[11:11:48] <quasi> trochej: http://blogs.cnet.com/8301-13505_1-9774550-16.html - more fun
[11:12:22] <WickedWicky> quasi: dunno, but ihave my dsa key
[11:12:23] <WickedWicky> hoorah
[11:13:06] <WickedWicky> next time I'll do cat porn_movie.mpeg > other_porn_movie.mpg
[11:13:47] <Gekkko> lol
[11:13:50] <Gekkko> what does that prove
[11:14:02] <WickedWicky> nothing, but it's funnier random IMO
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[11:14:08] <Tempt> a solution when cp vanishes?
[11:14:09] <tsp> hmm, now that I'm downloading a cupple hundred thousand mods, anyone know of a compresser? Surely some of the samples must be the same over some of those mods that I could put into a database
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[11:14:35] <WickedWicky> Tempt: that too
[11:22:35] <trochej> quasi: Yes. Sad.
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[11:26:31] <benr> Tempt, want the background tile?
[11:28:20] <Tempt> Tempting as it is, I'm not quite sure what I'd use it for.
[11:28:31] <Tempt> Say, are you still using enlightenment?
[11:28:33] <benr> cuddletech.com/img/galaxy-grill.png and galaxy-grill-dark.png
[11:28:34] <flyingparchment> so i rebooted the host and my "missing" disk reappeared.
[11:28:38] <flyingparchment> quality enterprise hardware :(
[11:28:46] <benr> Tempt, running it as we speak.
[11:28:53] <Tempt> A recent build?
[11:28:59] <benr> of E16 atm.
[11:29:06] <Tempt> Considered maintaining packages?
[11:29:14] <richlowe> I thought he did, kinda
[11:29:18] <benr> yes, I did for a long time, no one cared.... its too much work.
[11:29:25] <richlowe> oh, you stopped?
[11:29:26] <benr> been meaning to cut new pkg's but haven't.
[11:29:32] <richlowe> (yeah, I know, way to back up "no one cared", but...)
[11:29:48] <benr> cuddletech.com/download/
[11:29:58] <Tempt> I'd been thinking of packaging up something for E17
[11:30:04] <Tempt> still haven't got it built yet
[11:30:26] <benr> Maintaining SysV packages is a massive pita.
[11:30:40] <benr> when indianna appears I'll return to being a regular maintainer.
[11:30:47] <richlowe> benr: out of interest, why?
[11:30:52] <richlowe> (I've never found it so annoying)
[11:30:53] <benr> why what?
[11:30:53] <Tempt> a tarball that unpacked in something like /opt/enlightenment would be better
[11:30:58] <richlowe> benr: it's a pita.. why?
[11:31:13] <benr> a couple reasons... some technical some not...
[11:31:17] <Tempt> saves the effort of building the sysv package if it's too much hassle.
[11:31:46] <benr> technically its just arcaiac, building the manifest, then packing it, then trans'ing it... its a hassle, especially for multiple packages with deps on each other.
[11:32:04] <richlowe> trivially automatable, though.
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[11:32:10] <richlowe> though that's the bit I was missing, thanks. :)
[11:32:11] <benr> non-technically, the existing standards are too in flux... put it in /opt/e?  /usr/local?  no one can agree, everyone complains no matter where you put it.
[11:32:22] <richlowe> they may complain, but /opt is right.
[11:32:28] <flyingparchment> how can i tell iscsi initiator not to use a certain target?
[11:32:32] <flyingparchment> (when using sendtargets)
[11:32:40] <Tempt> There is no standard for using /usr/local
[11:32:43] <benr> you know that, i know that, but when you waste time building packages and people bitch you just sorta give it up.
[11:32:57] <Tempt> except it violates the "Tempt hates /usr/local with a roaring passion Act"
[11:33:04] <benr> flyingparchment, use ACL's on the taret node or use static discovery
[11:33:11] <Tempt> (it also annoys sparse zone users)
[11:33:18] <benr> why?
[11:33:23] <flyingparchment> benr: i did use an ACL, but the target is stupid and still advertises the target.  so devfsadm takes years :(
[11:33:28] <benr> Joyent uses sparse zones and /usr/local
[11:33:54] <benr> flyingparchment, lame... which build?
[11:33:56] <Tempt> because when stuff expects to be able to write to usr/local and can't, it's a pain.
[11:34:06] <flyingparchment> benr: the target is an Infortrend raid array
[11:34:54] <benr> oh...... ya, use static
[11:35:04] <benr> (or iSNS)
[11:35:10] <Tempt> benr: If you're willing to email me any notes etc you have for your enlightenment builds, I'll build and package it
[11:35:11] <flyingparchment> guess i need to learn more about iscsi first :)
[11:36:49] <richlowe> Tempt: what in the world (that's sane) expects to write /usr/local?
[11:37:05] <benr> Tempt, just a sec...
[11:37:22] <benr> richlowe, every single GNU app on earth.
[11:37:30] <benr> richlowe, you know that. :)
[11:37:43] <richlowe> I did specify sanity :)
[11:38:12] <benr> i allow /usr/local in Joyent Accelerators because I got sick of the tickets.
[11:38:15] <Tempt> richlowe: That's sane? NOTHING! :)
[11:38:31] <Tempt> Note: Users are not sane,.
[11:38:40] <richlowe> users should be shunned.
[11:38:41] <richlowe> who needs 'em?
[11:38:42] <richlowe> :)
[11:38:49] <Tempt> because typing --prefix is too hard for the poor little dears
[11:39:10] <richlowe> failing to specify --prefix explicitly is just wrong.
[11:39:15] <richlowe> I bet they share needles, too.
[11:39:23] * dlg yawn
[11:39:30] <Tempt> and have unprotected anal sex with cheap thai prostitutes.
[11:39:58] *** Tempt was kicked by benr (benr)
[11:40:21] <benr> doesn't anyone use auto-join anymore?
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[11:40:31] <benr> there ya are.
[11:40:36] <Tempt> benr: back it up with a ban or don't bother.
[11:40:52] <benr> chill out and turn on autojoin.
[11:41:18] <benr> standard "talk nice" smackage.
[11:41:33] * Tempt wonders why there isn't a kick for the troll who dribbles shit in this channel on a regular basis, but one remark warrants a kick.
[11:41:58] <Tempt> aaah, sod it, not geting into irc op powertrip bollocks today
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[11:42:30] <dlg> tsk
[11:42:36] <dlg> i think he needs huggz
[11:42:39] <richlowe> beer.
[11:42:47] <dlg> same thing
[11:44:39] <flyingparchment> does filesystem/local include iscsi mounts?
[11:44:55] <benr> no.
[11:44:56] * benr checks
[11:45:09] <flyingparchment> what should i depend on for my mysql manifest if the data is on an iscsi fs?
[11:45:35] <dlg> flyingparchment: luck
[11:45:45] <benr> /lib/svc/method/fs-local is the method...
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[11:48:30] <benr> flyingparchment, it must.... the devices have to be present prior, i don't see any other service that would be involved.
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[12:03:35] <Pietro_S> how can I get used enviroment variable in Makefile?
[12:04:07] <Pietro_S> $(name) doesn't work :(
[12:04:12] <flyingparchment> EMC CX3: yes/no?
[12:04:34] <flyingparchment> (this question is not applicable to wesolows.)
[12:04:46] <dlg> no
[12:05:03] <flyingparchment> why not?
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[12:06:01] <dlg> i dont like my emc at work
[12:06:12] <Pietro_S> ahh, sry forr spamming I had typo in export variable ...
[12:10:10] <Tempt> "Just say no to EMC."
[12:12:31] <tsoome> buy emc, get pc with bunch of disks:D
[12:13:02] <dlg> its funny cos its true
[12:13:15] <tsoome> yea, unfortunately.
[12:13:30] <tsoome> well it aint that bad ofc, but still...
[12:14:16] <dlg> it has annoying quirks which we hit
[12:14:23] <tsoome> like?
[12:14:45] <dlg> we had a disk fail during a migration and it took dell/emc three weeks to fix it
[12:14:57] <dlg> where the fix was powering down both sps at the same time
[12:14:58] <tsoome> oops
[12:15:09] <dlg> "awesome"
[12:15:12] <dlg> little things like that
[12:15:23] <tsoome> lol, if its not working, reboot:D
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[12:15:34] <dlg> it is running xp
[12:15:35] <dlg> so yes
[12:15:37] <trochej> Windows?
[12:15:39] <trochej> Yup
[12:15:40] <dlg> yes
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[12:52:50] <Berny> hmpf
[12:54:33] <Berny> sometimes support folks are a little annoying...
[12:55:05] <flyingparchment> if a vendor calls me by my surname, should i refer to him by first name or surname?  (i'm no good at this 'polite email' stuff)
[12:55:32] <richlowe> reply inline, and avoid a salutation. :)
[12:55:53] <BadKarma> :)
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[12:56:43] <trochej> :)
[12:58:01] <Berny> does anyone know what the default sata controller in a x2200m2 is?
[12:58:29] <dlg> nvidia i think
[12:59:00] <quasi> yeah, that seems to be what I recall as well
[13:00:20] <Berny> hmm, why doesn't system handbook tell me? :-\
[13:00:31] <quasi> they never do
[13:00:38] <quasi> scanpci would
[13:00:43] <PerterB> flyingparchment: it's a vendor, they want your money so are less concerned by politeness....
[13:01:54] <Berny> scanpci requires a running system :-\
[13:02:16] <dlg> Berny: cos its an embarassing detail
[13:02:21] <quasi> flyingparchment: you'll prolly end up paying for all the special treatment
[13:02:31] <quasi> Berny: it is nv
[13:02:41] <Berny> cheers quasi
[13:03:10] <quasi> Berny: (if memory serves me right ;)
[13:03:46] <quasi> and wouldn't it show from the bios doing boot anyway?
[13:05:23] <Berny> not really :-(
[13:05:26] <Berny> its nv
[13:05:38] <Berny> boot cd... scanpci works 8-)
[13:05:39] <quasi> yes, I told you so ;)
[13:05:45] <Tempt> Berny: Did your download finish?
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[13:06:28] <Berny> Tempt: yep
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[13:07:36] <Tempt> I just sourced a non-sun download
[13:07:39] <Tempt> and I'm restarting
[13:07:54] <Tempt> Because it was coming in at under 2kbyte/sec
[13:08:12] <Berny> still wating for companion though... eta 40hrs
[13:08:19] <Tempt> Screw the companion
[13:08:56] * Berny has time
[13:09:14] <Berny> while i play with support i can as well lets it download
[13:09:35] <quasi> the joys of being stuck on an island in the middle of nowhere... :)
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[13:09:45] <Berny> kinda yeah
[13:10:10] <Berny> i mean i updated the bios and sp, i put sol10 on that box... issue remains...
[13:10:33] <Berny> support tells me to update the firmware on the sata controller from the tool&drivers cd
[13:10:37] <quasi> took me less than an hour to get both the dvd and the companion
[13:10:44] <Berny> downloaded that, boot it, no such thing on it
[13:10:50] <quasi> hah
[13:10:54] <Berny> just the bios&sp rev i already have
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[13:10:57] <Tempt> Wow, the NewSunSolve(tm) supply has already coughed up over 500Mbytes.
[13:11:07] <Tempt> (in under five minutes)
[13:11:30] <Berny> hehe
[13:11:48] <Berny> and the bug i entered on b.o.o yesterday is still not visible?
[13:12:33] <richlowe> it should be.
[13:12:42] <richlowe> though it depends on when yesterday
[13:12:54] <Berny> about that time yesterday
[13:12:59] <Berny> +-2hrs
[13:13:18] <richlowe> what's bothering me, is that b.o.o appears to be updating more often than it used to.
[13:13:27] <richlowe> except when it comes to finding bugs you know were filed recently.
[13:13:34] <Berny> hehe
[13:13:44] <richlowe> which leads me to think that rather than "updating more often", it's actually just permuting my damn date-sorted search results.
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[13:13:48] <richlowe> (trust no one!)
[13:13:49] <flyingparchment> oh, i got a quote from a German Sun reseller.  they got the price right, but they only included half the products i asked for.
[13:14:14] <Berny> the joy of resellers
[13:14:39] <Berny> richlowe: is there a way to check if my report is somewhere in the bug db?
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[13:20:39] <richlowe> alanbur: Hey, you could answer this pretty quickly, I'd think...
[13:21:00] <alanbur> ?
[13:22:58] <Berny> .oO(lets wake some more random people :-))
[13:23:54] <richlowe> alanbur: Berny's question.
[13:23:55] <alanbur> wgat question?
[13:24:06] <alanbur> ro rather what..
[13:24:25] <Berny> is the bug i submitted yesterday to b.o.o in the db?
[13:24:32] <richlowe> You'll have to give something to search for...
[13:24:37] <Berny> didn't get a bugid yet
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[13:24:55] <Berny> keywords biosdev lu on a x2200m2
[13:25:17] <richlowe> which won't be real keywords, because of b.o.o, of course.
[13:25:27] <Berny> 8-)
[13:27:03] <Berny> at least biosdev and lu are in the "keywords" i entered
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[13:30:28] <Berny> yuck
[13:30:43] <Berny> now they want a explorer output :-\
[13:31:05] <richlowe> if you have a support case for the same issue, ask them to try and find it. :)
[13:31:46] <Berny> i have the second case on that issue
[13:32:04] <Berny> first one was rejected because i'm running nevada on that box
[13:32:23] <Berny> .oO(though i still don't quite get why this affects the behaviour of the bios)
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[13:37:02] <Tempt> Mmm
[13:37:05] <Tempt> sol10u4 downloaded
[13:37:12] <Tempt> in under half an hour
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[13:42:07] <flyingparchment> hmm, if i troll benr into kicking me, do i get ops too?
[13:42:53] <Berny> hmm?
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[13:51:45] <phips> Tempt: you did well to get that in half hour, I'm getting 12kb/s in the UK :(
[13:52:13] <Tempt> phips: To be honest, I had a friend bounce it to me.
[13:52:18] <Tempt> I gave up after over 24 hours
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[14:05:53] <quasi> phips: try again tomorrow morning .uk time - before the 'merkins get up
[14:06:47] <phips> quasi: thanks - I did, that was earlier this mornin ;-)
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[14:07:20] <phips> Tempt: probably the most sensible plan. I had it going all night, and only got 2/3rds of the first dvd split. I'll leave it going again tonight and tomorrow. Might have it by the weekend then
[14:07:22] <sibikos> hi, anyone has tutorial on how to install x on opensolaris?
[14:07:46] <quasi> phips: damn, the day U4 came out, I downloaded it in about an hour
[14:07:46] <Tempt> x?
[14:07:55] <sibikos> Tempt, x window
[14:08:02] <Tempt> Yeah, I got u4 for SPARC quickly, but by the time I wanted x86 ... it was eaten
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[14:08:10] <jmcp> sibikos: it's installed by default, generally
[14:08:14] * Tempt boggles
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[14:09:20] <sibikos> jmcp, i use qemu to load the opensolaris image and found out that x is not installed. is there a way to install it?
[14:09:24] <quasi> Tempt: ah, same for me today when I was going to get the x86 version
[14:09:32] <jmcp> sibikos: where are you looking for it
[14:09:46] <sibikos> under /usr/X11
[14:09:51] <Tempt> /usr/openwin
[14:10:30] <sibikos> Tempt, nothing there.. only got lib/ and share/
[14:10:41] <Tempt> sibikos: Where did you get this 'image' from?
[14:10:55] <jmcp> sibikos: did you choose an install cluster, such as "end user" ?
[14:10:55] <sibikos> freeoszoo
[14:10:59] <Tempt> okay
[14:11:17] <Tempt> then take it up with them, or just create a blank image and install onto that from an actual distro
[14:11:21] <sibikos> is there a way to install x?
[14:11:26] <Tempt> Yes
[14:11:34] <Tempt> Install one of the OpenSolaris distributions, like SXCE
[14:11:39] <Tempt> and everything will be there for you
[14:11:48] <Tempt> If they've torn it out it'll be a pain to put back
[14:12:07] <jmcp> sibikos: we have no idea what freeoszoo has done, so we're not really interested in trying to debug  aproblem with unlimited unknowns
[14:12:16] <sibikos> do you know if there is any good tutorial to install one one those?
[14:12:25] <jmcp> sibikos: grab a distro such as SXCE/SXDE, or Nexenta/Martux/Belenix/Schillix, and install that
[14:12:26] <Tempt> sibikos: Seriously, it's beyond easy.
[14:12:31] <jmcp> www.opensolaris.org
[14:12:39] <Tempt> sibikos: Just boot from the CD, and walk through the menus
[14:13:24] <sibikos> thanks. let me give opensolaris.org a hot
[14:13:27] <sibikos> shot*
[14:14:07] <sibikos> oh one more question.. do opensolaris has package or port or something similar?
[14:14:20] <jmcp> sibikos: it uses SysV Packaging
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[14:14:39] <sibikos> i see
[14:14:46] <sibikos> thanks mate
[14:14:47] <jmcp> there is an apt-get like system, known as blastwave (www.blastwave.org)
[14:15:47] <Pietro_S> and there is SFE repository for compiled packages also ...
[14:18:53] <phips> *sigh* oh well, they say patience is a virtue
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[14:21:42] <blah2> ummm hi.
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[14:23:14] <rasputnik> clear
[14:23:22] <rasputnik> damn :)
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[14:24:59] <rasputnik> say I have an existing fs on a zpool and then enable compression. will attaching a vdev to it give me the benefit of the compression on the second vdev?
[14:25:42] <rasputnik> i mean, will the resilver mean the new blocks get compressed?
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[14:27:31] <blah2> Anyone know diomac?
[14:31:09] <blah2> All so talkative!
[14:32:06] <Berny> whats diomac?
[14:32:46] <blah2> A user here
[14:32:49] <blah2> So I guess that's a no :)
[14:34:27] <blah2> I have a fever, I'm tired, bored shitless.. and really nothing better to do.
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[14:54:29] <jmcp> otoh I'm flattered that people email me for help directly having seen presentations that I've written..... but then again, lately they seem to be asking me instead of logging a call or (tonight) going on a basic sysadmin training course
[14:54:32] * jmcp sighs
[14:55:08] <Cyrille> price of fame ;-)
[14:55:09] <richlowe> which preso?
[14:55:17] * richlowe can't tie the ones I've read to support-ish questions
[14:56:44] <jmcp> richlowe: leadville stack
[14:56:52] <richlowe> but that was an introduction to the code.
[14:56:57] * richlowe is even more puzzled, now
[14:57:03] <quasi> jmcp: just post a higher price/q ;)
[14:57:05] <richlowe> the GUID one I could kinda bend into a question for uspport.
[14:57:07] <richlowe> but...
[14:57:20] <jmcp> "How do I program the boot BIOS of x6767 card for the desired boot LUN."
[14:57:36] <jmcp> ... on a sparc system
[14:57:49] <richlowe> that doesn't even map to the presentation.
[14:57:55] <jmcp> yeah
[14:57:56] <richlowe> beyond your list of codename->hba->driver
[14:57:59] <jmcp> yeah
[14:57:59] * richlowe blames google
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[14:58:10] <jmcp> I suggested that he get himself on a basic sysadmin course
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[15:00:36] <hile_> jmcp: wtf is a bios?
[15:00:39] <hile_> ;-)
[15:00:53] <jmcp> hile_: yeah, exactly!
[15:01:47] <jmcp> hile_: I know I've heard of a "bios", somewhere
[15:02:18] <Cyrille> is that something that tells the life story of someone famous?
[15:02:35] <jmcp> plural, I think
[15:02:42] <Cyrille> right
[15:02:46] <richlowe> plural people, or plural bios.
[15:02:47] <richlowe> ... doh.
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[15:05:34] <tomww> jmcp: stmsboot and friends could help IIRC
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[15:05:45] <jmcp> tomww: I know
[15:05:49] <tomww> but?
[15:05:54] <jmcp> tomww: care to suggest how?
[15:06:04] <jmcp> tomww: I don't touch mpathadm, btw
[15:06:07] <richlowe> revenge?
[15:06:08] <richlowe> Oh.
[15:06:10] <richlowe> not that then.
[15:06:16] <jmcp> richlowe: partly :-)
[15:06:44] <jmcp> it's a maze of twisty-windy callbacks, all looking the same
[15:06:45] <kaiwai> someone said revenge?
[15:07:30] <jmcp> sssshhhh
[15:07:31] <jamesd> kaiwai, its only tuesday...
[15:07:39] <kaiwai> ok
[15:07:52] * kaiwai goes puts his tazer and cattle prod away
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[15:08:01] <Gekkko[PDA]> tomorrow is the new month!
[15:08:05] <jmcp> kaiwai: you been taking lessons from nrubsig again?
[15:08:07] <Gekkko[PDA]> no more shaping
[15:08:14] <jamesd> yeah save th0se for thurs. or at least wed.
[15:08:43] <kaiwai> jmcp: not really, gradually working through my 'learning C' book
[15:08:55] <jmcp> kaiwai: I'm glad to hear it
[15:08:59] <jmcp> save the revenge for C++ instead
[15:09:00] <kaiwai> maybe I'll get the point that my code won't make people cry
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[15:09:49] <hile_> wait, so you want people to have to blame the urge to cry on your ever so cheery disposition? or your clue quotient?
[15:10:13] <Gekkko[PDA]> kaiwai: what book?
[15:10:33] <richlowe> damnit.
[15:10:41] <richlowe> why the hell do people keep mangling manpages such that man -k craps itself?
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[15:11:17] <kaiwai> two books, one of them is called "C programming - A modern approach" and "C Primer Plus"
[15:11:23] <richlowe> and of course, because man -k is scrod, it's a pain in the ass to find which page.
[15:11:27] <Gekkko[PDA]> i x
[15:11:31] <Gekkko[PDA]> i see*
[15:12:26] <kaiwai> then once I've done that, then I'll focus on working on wpa for the wpi driver
[15:12:27] <Gekkko[PDA]> I just bought "A Book on C"
[15:12:46] <kaiwai> neat
[15:13:03] <kaiwai> I tried to learn Java at one point; it was so painful I stopped reading on the second chapter
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[15:14:09] <mweichert> hello all
[15:15:02] <mweichert> I've never touched opensolaris before, and just grabbed a nexentaos build to give it a test. I was just wondering though - what is the solaris default package management system?
[15:15:20] <quasi> kaiwai: prolly says more about you than about the language
[15:15:20] <kaiwai> svr4 pkg's
[15:15:39] <kaiwai> quasi: the language was ok, it was trying to understand the OO principles that confused me
[15:16:02] <mweichert> and I heard that nexentaos is a "linux-like distribution" of opensolaris. So how does it compare to Solaris 10 or the real opensolaris developer builds?
[15:16:33] <Cyrille> Nexenta is an OpenSolaris distribution with the GNU userland on top
[15:17:02] <mweichert> Cyrille: so solaris typically doesn't use GNU software?
[15:17:31] <Cyrille> I think it's usually provided somewhere on the side, but it's not the default, no.
[15:17:38] <kaiwai> mweichert: it depends on whether you want to learn solaris which dictates whether one i sbetter than another
[15:18:23] <mweichert> I'm wanting to learn solaris, and the differences between it and a linux distro (of which I'm accustomed to)
[15:18:33] <blah2> You an aussie, kaiwai?
[15:18:36] <mweichert> I'm evaluating opensolaris because of zfs
[15:18:42] <kaiwai> blah2: nope, I'm a NZ'der
[15:18:51] <blah2> Know any aussies?
[15:19:14] <kaiwai> mweichert: if you get SXCE; it'll be as close to the 'mainline' Solaris release as possible; so you're learning skills that are transposable
[15:19:23] <kaiwai> blah2: jmcp is an aussie
[15:19:32] <kaiwai> I'm sure there are a few others
[15:19:53] <mweichert> hmm... so I got the wrong distro :P
[15:19:54] <seanmcg> Gman spends some of his time on NZ...
[15:20:01] <seanmcg> s/on/in/
[15:20:18] <Cyrille> mweichert, and if you're familiar with Linux, you may want to have a look at the rosetta stone to get a quick idea of the different ways of doing things.
[15:20:32] * Gekkko[PDA] is Aussie.
[15:20:42] <Cyrille> Actually, I'm not sure whether Nexenta changes that much on the system administration side of things.
[15:20:53] <mweichert> Cyrille: oh, that sounds great... I'm googling now
[15:21:12] <kaiwai> Cyrille: true, but one shouldn't get used to GNU nicities as it forms bad habits when one goes to a pure Solaris environment
[15:21:32] <Cyrille> mweichert, http://bhami.com/rosetta.html
[15:21:35] * jmcp wakes up for a sec
[15:21:40] <Gekkko[PDA]> Linux Admins Guide to Solaris <- mweichert
[15:21:47] <Gekkko[PDA]> google that
[15:21:48] <kaiwai> seanmcg: Gman is a man of mystery :)
[15:21:49] <Gekkko[PDA]> its ao
[15:21:56] <Gekkko[PDA]> also useful*
[15:22:31] <Cyrille> kaiwai, well most of them are around in some side directory on standard Solaris installs, aren't they?
[15:23:00] <mweichert> Gekkko[PDA]: thanks
[15:23:13] <Gekkko[PDA]> np.
[15:23:17] <mweichert> Cyrille: what's the most stable distro, for production use?
[15:23:33] <Gekkko[PDA]> Solaris 10.
[15:23:34] <Cyrille> mweichert, for production, I think people play it safe and use Solaris 10
[15:23:44] <kaiwai> Cyrille: never tried it, it gives me the chills using somethng that is riddled with GNU crap
[15:23:45] <Cyrille> but that's not really an OpenSolaris distribution.
[15:24:00] <Gekkko[PDA]> SXCE is basically Solaris 11 testing
[15:24:11] <Gekkko[PDA]> and opensource
[15:24:13] <kaiwai> mweichert: how do you define 'production'
[15:24:21] <Cyrille> kaiwai, I'm not that familiar with them either, but I seem to recall reading they were in /usr/sfw or something similar.
[15:24:29] <mweichert> kaiwai: is a business environment
[15:24:41] <kaiwai> mweichert: well, using it as a server, workstation, porn rendering farm?
[15:24:52] 
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[15:25:42] <mweichert> Gekkko[PDA]: sorry, SXCE - is that Solaris Express Developer Edition?
[15:25:42] <Gekkko[PDA]> kaiwai: the latter!
[15:25:55] <mweichert> kaiwai: file server
[15:26:02] <Gekkko[PDA]> thats SXDE
[15:26:11] <kaiwai> mweichert: if thats the case, use "Solaris 10 09/07"
[15:26:17] <kaiwai> (or what ever th ehell its claled)
[15:26:31] <Tempt> 08/07
[15:26:33] <kaiwai> if you're going to use it as a desktop, use SXDE
[15:26:47] <Cyrille> just wait a couple of days for everyone and their dogs to finish their downloads before trying to get it, though.
[15:26:47] <Gekkko[PDA]> why not SXCE?
[15:26:53] <mweichert> are there any mirrors for downloading? sun's servers seem very slow
[15:27:06] <mweichert> what's the diff between SXCE and SXDE?
[15:27:07] <richlowe> Gekkko[PDA]: 10u4 is supported.
[15:27:17] <richlowe> mweichert: one has a dumbed down installer and installs studio
[15:27:18] <kaiwai> Gekkko[PDA]: the current SXCE build (B72) is broken for some people with CD/DVD drives
[15:27:20] <richlowe> the other doesn't.
[15:28:05] <kaiwai> Gekkko[PDA]: IIRC there are some compatibility issues even with Sun's own Ultra workstations
[15:28:11] <rasputnik> mweichert: go for solaris 10 update 4 for production. it's got a lot of sxce/sxdes recent improvements
[15:28:22] <Gekkko[PDA]> kaiwai: everyone has cd drives :p
[15:28:35] <Gekkko[PDA]> but I underspeak.
[15:29:06] <Gekkko[PDA]> 69 hates my CPU
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[15:29:28] <Gekkko[PDA]> I'm gonna see how Mac OS X likes a P4.
[15:29:32] <kaiwai> Gekkko[PDA]: http://bugs.opensolaris.org/view_bug.do?bug_id=6600169
[15:29:41] <Gekkko[PDA]> I know.
[15:29:48] <mweichert> rasputnik: does it have zfs?
[15:29:52] <kaiwai> Gekkko[PDA]: your CPU a P4 prescott?
[15:29:57] <Gekkko[PDA]> I was here when vyou first complained
[15:30:04] <Gekkko[PDA]> kaiwai: yes
[15:30:07] <kaiwai> aww, you remembered *blush*
[15:30:10] <mweichert> my whole point of looking at solaris, is because I want a version-controlled filesystem
[15:30:21] <rasputnik> mweichert: yes, and some good zones improvements
[15:30:25] <Gekkko[PDA]> it has zfs
[15:30:40] <Gekkko[PDA]> anything solaris post-10 has zfs
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[15:30:52] <Gekkko[PDA]> post-s10*
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[15:31:26] <kaiwai> anyone know when B73 will appear?
[15:31:40] <Gekkko[PDA]> soon.
[15:31:41] <Gekkko[PDA]> ?
[15:31:50] <richlowe> two weeks? three weeks? more? less?
[15:31:57] <richlowe> somewhere in that tameframe.
[15:31:58] <richlowe> 'timeframe'
[15:32:05] <Gekkko[PDA]> tame heh
[15:32:20] <Tempt> Anyone got Oracle 10g running on SXCE? 32bit?
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[15:32:37] <rasputnik> mweichert: you mean snapshots?
[15:32:48] <Gekkko[PDA]> netsplit
[15:32:50] <Gekkko[PDA]> :o
[15:33:07] <mweichert> rasputnik: well, I want a filesystem that is similiar to windows shadow copies
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[15:33:31] <Gekkko[PDA]> we're back
[15:33:32] <mweichert> when I make a change to a file on the filesystem, a "backup" is automatically generated that I can revert to
[15:33:33] <Gekkko[PDA]> lol
[15:33:33] <rasputnik> mweichert: yes, that sounds like it
[15:34:15] <rasputnik> mweichert: you can cron in as many snapshots as you need (or hook it into a login process)
[15:34:27] <seanmcg> mweichert: zfs snapshots can do that, though you have to tell zfs when to take the snapshot - either crontab ormanually after changing a file or the like..
[15:34:43] <mweichert> rasputnik: oh?
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[15:35:03] <mweichert> so if I forget to take the snapshot, I can't go back to the previous version?
[15:35:06] <timsf> Chris Gerhard had a nifty little script that hooks into samba mounts too - takes a snapshot as soon as a windows client tries to mount.
[15:35:11] <timsf> true.
[15:35:16] <rasputnik> mweichert: no. although it sounds more like you want a version control system
[15:35:29] <mweichert> rasputnik, well in reality that is all I want....
[15:35:44] <mweichert> but I want a frontend that like a samba share
[15:35:52] <rasputnik> mweichert: how about webdav?
[15:36:00] <mweichert> so that when a change is made to a file, a backup is done transparently
[15:36:10] <mweichert> that's what I'm currently using
[15:36:19] <Tempt> timsf: Oh, that's nice. Protection from Windows.
[15:36:37] <rasputnik> I've done webdav to a subversion repo before. that works ok (although uses a lot of disk)
[15:37:06] <mweichert> webdav is good with autoversioning, but with webdav... 3 revisions are made to the "repository" when making a change to a single file
[15:37:52] <mweichert> and I wanted to evalulate how good solaris would be for this task
[15:37:56] <timsf> Tempt: yeah, other than unplugging their power cables, it's the only way to be sure
[15:38:03] <rasputnik> mweichert: like timsf said, you can hook other systems to generate a ZFS snapshot for you. Hourly is enough for me, but more is possible.
[15:38:04] <Tempt> timsf: nuke from orbit
[15:38:33] <timsf> ... mostly
[15:38:49] <mweichert> rasputnik: so what if you change a file twice in an hour, and then take a 'snapshot'... how many revisions will you have?
[15:38:50] <Gekkko[PDA]> mweichert: why not use subversion?
[15:39:13] <mweichert> Gekkko[PDA]: that's what we are currently using, Subversion, WebDAV, and Autoversioning
[15:40:18] <mweichert> Gekkko[PDA]: but if I make a chance to a single file, the revision count is incremented for the entire repository (which makes sense for how subversion works, but not how my use-case works)
[15:40:58] <rasputnik> mweichert: I think you know the answer to that :) i'm working on boxes that have a single nightly backup, so hourly is a vast improvement. especially not having to go to tape
[15:42:20] <mweichert> rasputnik: well, just to clarify... you'll have 2 revisions... the original, and the latest?
[15:42:42] <kaiwai> mweichert: http://www.solarisinternals.com/wiki/index.php/ZFS_Best_Practices_Guide#Using_ZFS_Snapshots
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[15:43:32] <Gekkko[PDA]> use cvs?
[15:43:34] <Gekkko[PDA]> lol
[15:43:48] <rasputnik> mweichert: yes. I don't see every change. but users are probably going to want to go back to 'before dreamweaver screwed the files', not 'revx of filea, revy of fileb.......'. Changes happen to many files at once, and a snapshot gets them all together.
[15:43:56] <Gekkko[PDA]> twiki has per-file incrementation i believe
[15:44:19] <kaiwai> or snapshots being run as a regular cron job; once per hour or based on some other metric?
[15:44:27] <timsf> mweichert, course you can do hourly, weekly, monthly, daily and frequent snapshots too - I put together a neat little bit of SMF to make that a bit easier
[15:44:37] * jmcp finishes with the mpxio admin guide update
[15:44:40] <jmcp> yawn
[15:44:41] <jmcp> time for bed
[15:44:42] <timsf> http://blogs.sun.com/timf/entry/zfs_automatic_snapshots_0_8
[15:44:42] <jmcp> gnite all
[15:44:49] <timsf> http://blogs.sun.com/timf/resource/README.zfs-auto-snapshot.txt
[15:44:57] <rasputnik> Gekkko[PDA]: subversion would be a good fit, you can make a repo look like a DAV share and auto-commit
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[15:45:50] <Gekkko[PDA]> nice.
[15:46:10] <rasputnik> s/nice/insane/ actually, but it has certain uses :)
[15:46:42] <kaiwai> hmm, the easier way would be to say to end users 'tough shit'
[15:47:03] <rasputnik> whoever did the dns/multicast SMF bits in b72 is a star. Really nice to use.
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[15:47:43] <Gekkko[PDA]> Does: Silent + SPARC = fantasy?
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[15:48:10] <Gekkko[PDA]> bye...
[15:48:11] <rasputnik> Gekkko[PDA]: sunray? then hide the server in the loft
[15:48:12] <kaiwai> rasputnik: will be good once there are some applications in 'GNOME land' start using it
[15:48:40] <rasputnik> kaiwai: it's good already for advertising e.g. NFS shares to OSX clients
[15:49:22] <kaiwai> neat; very neat - samba integration on the cards soon?
[15:49:24] <Gekkko[PDA]> rasputnik: I have no loft
[15:49:35] <Gekkko[PDA]> no attic or basement
[15:50:28] <rasputnik> kaiwai: that's what I'm hoping.
[15:50:51] <kaiwai> rasputnik: a bittorrent would be a nice addition to GNOME
[15:51:09] <Gekkko[PDA]> deluge.
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[15:52:05] <rasputnik> yeah, there's a few things I'm still missing. but mdns-sd was a big one (it's all macs and sun at home)
[15:52:59] <Gekkko[PDA]> cya!
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[15:57:01] <Teknix> is Sun's download center slow for everyone, or just me?
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[15:58:20] <Fish> hello
[16:01:37] <kaiwai> 'allo Fish
[16:01:58] <kaiwai> you're not a fish! you're a frog! :P
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[16:04:17] <kaiwai> hmm, oil wrestling
[16:08:01] <sibikos> guys, where can i find package for opensolaris?
[16:08:35] <kaiwai> what package are you looking for?
[16:08:43] <sibikos> X11 package
[16:09:01] <kaiwai> hmm, should be on the dvd/cd or you can download it and compile it from scratch
[16:09:10] <kaiwai> using the stuff from x windows community
[16:09:26] <sibikos> other than cd/dvd, can i download any package from net?
[16:09:59] <kaiwai> nope
[16:10:19] <kaiwai> why dont you jave the cd?
[16:10:46] <Tempt> because he's using some silly zoo image with qemu
[16:10:56] <sibikos> i didnt actually install it, i use qemu image to load the system
[16:11:01] <sibikos> Tempt, ;)
[16:11:34] <kaiwai> whats the host os btw?
[16:12:05] <sibikos> obsd
[16:12:20] <kaiwai> oh
[16:12:53] <sibikos> Tempt, guest what, the image is actuaclly vulnurable to -froot bug.. lol
[16:13:00] <kaiwai> one begs the question; why?
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[16:13:20] <sibikos> why? hmm.. nothing better to do
[16:13:21] <sibikos> haha
[16:13:52] <sibikos> now i was just actually want to try qemu on obsd. and at the same time learn solaris
[16:13:58] <kaiwai> openbsd 4.2 looks nifty
[16:14:02] <sibikos> i dont have extra machine to test
[16:14:17] <kaiwai> you use openbsd as a workstation?
[16:14:20] <Tempt> just download the media
[16:14:23] <Tempt> and install it into qemu
[16:14:25] <sibikos> yes
[16:14:31] <Tempt> but avoid any image so broken it doesn't include X
[16:14:46] <Tempt> unless you're using some sort of rescue image or something
[16:15:22] <kaiwai> or just install Solaris on the machine and host qemu with openbsd
[16:15:25] <Berny> rescue images are something like belenix usb image :-)
[16:15:42] <ocr> How do i in Solaris clone a complete tree? (I wish to copy everything from /usr/openwin to /local/openwin, including symlinks, in order to lofs mount /usr/openwin afterwards)
[16:15:46] <sibikos> kaiwai, good idea :)
[16:16:00] <ocr> i.e preserve symlinks
[16:16:17] <Berny> ocr: tar cvpf - bla |(cd /new/path; tar xpf -)
[16:16:23] <ocr> I tried with cp -pR however it didnt preserve the symlinks like spevified
[16:18:28] <kaiwai> hmm, solaris development appears to have ground to a hault
[16:19:54] <Tempt> ground to a halt?
[16:20:04] <Tempt> someone pulled an init 0?
[16:20:51] <ocr> Berny: thanks
[16:20:56] <elektronkind> ocr: cd /usr && tar cf - openwin | (cd /local && tar xvfp -)
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[16:21:45] <WickedWicky> How's (open)solaris' support in combination with an MSA1500
[16:21:53] <ocr> elektronkind: you need p in the first one to preserve links like Berny said
[16:22:01] <ocr> elektronkind: (it seems)
[16:22:07] <elektronkind>  the p is needed only for untarring
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[16:23:48] <kaiwai> WickedWicky: it doesn't apper to be
[16:24:05] <WickedWicky> that effing sucks
[16:24:28] <kaiwai> WickedWicky: http://www.crn.com/storage/18842851
[16:24:36] <WickedWicky> I have a DL380 with an MSA1500 and 8 D20s connected via fiber (Emulex)
[16:24:40] <kaiwai> "According to Wolfston, the MSA1500 has only one drawback for an HP-only storage specialist like Headlands: It does not support connectivity to Sun Microsystems' Solaris-based servers."
[16:24:44] <WickedWicky> and I wanna get rid of RHEL/LVM/XFS
[16:25:14] <kaiwai> better to get rid of the source of the problem - the msa1500 and get a sun kit
[16:26:08] <WickedWicky> sure, I'll tell management we'll trash 16TB on storage and replace it
[16:26:29] <Berny> i'll have it :-)
[16:26:40] <Berny> wait... i only have sun gear... no use then
[16:26:40] <WickedWicky> fuck, this really sucks
[16:27:00] <WickedWicky> I wanted to introduce/implement ZFS :s
[16:27:04] <kaiwai> WickedWicky: well, not to sound negative but if they're f*cking stupid enough to purchase Hp equipment they deserve all the pain that comes with it
[16:27:22] <WickedWicky> We also have Sun gear
[16:27:38] <WickedWicky> HP/Sun are our preffered supliers and we have phat contracts with them
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[16:28:29] <Berny> have hp to fix this issue :-)
[16:28:46] <WickedWicky> didnt they?
[16:28:51] <kaiwai> threaten to leave and rape their dog if they don't support solaris
[16:28:52] <WickedWicky> cause the MSA has a so called " Solaris"  profile
[16:29:29] <trs81> that article is from 2004
[16:29:50] <kaiwai> WickedWicky: I had a look on their website and it appears to be supported, in theory
[16:30:21] <kaiwai> I assume it is the san scsi kit
[16:30:53] <dennis-> i'd like to replace debian/luks/lvm/ext3 with solaris/zfs as well, but there is no encryption support fuer zfs yet :/
[16:31:26] <kaiwai> hmm, really secret stuff I assume :P
[16:32:13] <dennis-> welcome to the year of 2007, encryption is nothing special anymore :)
[16:32:55] <nachox> filesystem encryption is so overrated
[16:32:58] <kaiwai> dennis-: depends, sometimes it can be a waste of time
[16:33:30] <kaiwai> dennis-: unless you've got some really kinky eastern european porn you need to keep from the employee's - its all paranoid BS in the end
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[16:33:45] <dennis-> lol, yeah just like using ssh
[16:33:53] <dennis-> maybe i should switch back to telnet as well
[16:34:06] <kaiwai> dennis-: there is a difference; you're transmitting over a network, sniffing and the likes
[16:34:23] <nachox> no, ssh is usefull because data travels through a lot of places
[16:34:31] <migi> dennis-, there is project zfs-crypto on the opensolaris.org, but not ready yet, so you will need to wait a little bit if you want that feature
[16:35:05] <dennis-> migi: yeah, i checked that out, and the project seems to be inactive/dead
[16:35:50] <dennis-> kaiwai: yeah, but you only have to protect the data you are transmitting if it's some really nasty australian donkey pr0n you want to hide :P
[16:35:51] <WickedWicky> Operating Systems  Windows, HP-UX, Linux, NetWare, SCO, OpenVMS, Tru64 UNIX, and VMware
[16:35:59] <WickedWicky> http://h18006.www1.hp.com/storage/disk_storage/msa_diskarrays/san_arrays/msa1500cs/specs.html
[16:35:59] <migi> dennis-, did you asked on the zfs-crypto-discuss mailing list?
[16:36:07] <dennis-> migi: not yet, maybe i should
[16:36:11] <kaiwai> dennis-: problem is, I'm in NZ :)
[16:36:20] <dennis-> kaiwai: hehe
[16:36:22] <kaiwai> last time I checked NZ =! Aussie
[16:36:38] <kaiwai> and NZ =! Netherlands - for all you americans out there
[16:36:43] <dennis-> hrhr
[16:36:46] <WickedWicky> yeah, god damnit
[16:36:53] <dennis-> NetherlandZ?
[16:36:54] <WickedWicky> NL = Pot country
[16:36:59] <gdamore> good morning *
[16:37:15] <hile_> morning gdamore
[16:37:28] <kaiwai> dennis-: I did a review of MacOS X 10.4 on my blog a while back, the number of dicks who thought NZ was in the netherlands bought me to tears
[16:37:42] <WickedWicky> me too
[16:37:46] <WickedWicky> NL is way cooler than NZ
[16:37:51] <WickedWicky> and of course I am not biased
[16:37:55] <kaiwai> WickedWicky: hey, we have 60million sheep!
[16:37:59] <gdamore> cooler as in colder.
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[16:38:06] <WickedWicky> we have cows, pot, windmills, woodenshoes
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[16:38:17] <kaiwai> I'll give you those clogs are great when stoned
[16:38:28] <WickedWicky> we also have gay marriages
[16:38:34] <gdamore> WickedWicky: don't forget the red light district. ;-)
[16:38:35] <WickedWicky> you might wanna come here
[16:38:38] <kaiwai> we have them too :)
[16:38:40] <WickedWicky> oh yeah
[16:38:45] <WickedWicky> you do? I didnt know
[16:39:01] <kaiwai> yeah, we're the 'scandinavian of the pacific' apparently (according to the BBC)
[16:39:04] <dennis-> it's not a "gay marriage" when you marry a sheep, kaiwai
[16:39:15] <kaiwai> dennis-: true, its wooly-love :)
[16:39:40] <kaiwai> dennis-: better than cousin marriage as practiced by the lower half of the USA :)
[16:39:51] <dennis-> yeah :)
[16:40:03] <dennis-> but that explains why they mix up NL and NZ :)
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[16:40:08] <kaiwai> the same half that think the south won the civil war, and there is a 'proud southern culture'
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[16:42:54] <kaiwai> 42million dollar project failed in the DHS - surprised?
[16:45:02] <holcomb> shocked
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[16:47:03] <kaiwai> holcomb: replaced many bloated departments with a single one - thank goodness there is a fiscally and small government conservative in charge *rolls eyes*
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[16:49:05] <kaiwai> thank goodness GWB is protecting the US from the perils of gay marriage *rolls eyes*
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[16:50:50] <richlowe> your troll-fu seems weak this morning.
[16:52:38] <kaiwai> hmm, not really, a troll would be 'gwb is the greatest president, karl rove is a legion, windows is flawless and I love having sex with women"
[16:52:46] <kaiwai> *legend
[16:52:57] <kaiwai> hmm, no, thats more sarcasm
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[17:11:40] <Tempt> I'd take .nl over .nz
[17:12:37] <Tempt> I'd take cows, pot, windmills, wooden shoes over sheep, an angry indigenous population and a communications marketplace so dodgy they're being eaten slowly by Telstra in an open market.
[17:13:08] <Berny> you like your neighbours :-)
[17:13:21] <kaiwai> hmm, Telstra is australian not nz
[17:13:38] <Tempt> Yes, but they're making good money in .nz
[17:13:49] <Tempt> Competing with your local telcos. Whoops, didn't they get eaten by singtel?
[17:13:50] <kaiwai> true, telstra/clear/saturn/etc
[17:13:59] <WickedWicky> Tempt: arent you suposed to head for a meeting
[17:14:01] <kaiwai> nope, that was optus
[17:14:15] <Tempt> optus is singtel, silly.
[17:14:18] <kaiwai> Telecom NZ shares are majority NZ owned the last time I looked
[17:14:21] <Berny> beer meeting?
[17:14:27] <Berny> btw congrats tempt
[17:14:36] <Tempt> Thanks Berny.
[17:14:39] <Tempt> WickedWicky: meeting?
[17:14:44] <WickedWicky> the osol thingy
[17:14:50] <Tempt> WickedWicky: It's 1:14am.
[17:14:57] <WickedWicky> lol
[17:14:58] <WickedWicky> ok
[17:14:59] <Tempt> WickedWicky: OpenSolaris thingy is at 6pm.
[17:15:00] <Berny> where are you heading for the week off? Tempt
[17:15:09] <Tempt> Not sure yet.
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[17:15:32] <Berny> make a european osol-friends trip ;-)
[17:15:47] <Tempt> Given I only have the week, I think I'll probably have a day or two of couch time and spend the rest in sydney in pursuit of wine, women and song.
[17:15:57] <Berny> .oO(avoid wales and scotland... for there are sheep ;-))
[17:16:08] <WickedWicky> and then go home, get slapped upside the head with a fryiing pan
[17:16:09] <Berny> hehe
[17:16:29] <kaiwai> some good aussie wine; 5 year old shiraz etc
[17:16:33] <Tempt> Lets run with the aforementioned plan, without the fryingpan concept.
[17:16:41] <Berny> hehe
[17:16:52] <WickedWicky> surely you'll have a headache after so much wine and women
[17:16:55] <Berny> btw i just read a book about aussie-land :-)
[17:17:04] <Berny> not sure i wanna go there anymore
[17:17:11] <Tempt> Was it by Terry Pratchett? <grin>
[17:17:20] <WickedWicky> Berny: I just watched heaps of Skippy episodes
[17:17:28] <Berny> too many deadly creatures... bill bryson it was
[17:17:31] <Tempt> As long as you watch out for the dropbears and prawns you'll be right.
[17:17:36] <richlowe> hah.
[17:17:44] <WickedWicky> and of course, flying doctors
[17:17:51] <richlowe> oh man.
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[17:18:36] <kaiwai> drop bears, reminds me of that bundaburg rum advert
[17:18:58] <Tempt> The dropbears aren't too common 'round these parts, but mate, those prawns will take your arm clean off.
[17:19:08] <WickedWicky> hooray, Manowar and Savatage discography is in
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[17:19:28] <WickedWicky> I thought a prawn was like .. a shrimp
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[17:19:45] <Berny> yeah yeah... the fishy thingies... the spiders, the snakes...
[17:19:51] <Berny> i name it, you have it...
[17:20:05] <WickedWicky> yellow prawns, black prawns, hairy prawns
[17:20:08] <WickedWicky> if we dont have it
[17:20:10] <WickedWicky> you dont want it
[17:20:24] <WickedWicky> and if you can get it somwhere cheaper...
[17:20:28] <kaiwai> bah, want good seafood come to nz
[17:20:31] <Berny> i just wonder why all that beasts are just there
[17:20:41] <WickedWicky> cause australia is vicious
[17:20:48] <WickedWicky> they have Tazz
[17:20:51] <Berny> must be
[17:22:34] <kaiwai> we have vicious things, like the kiwi and the kea :)
[17:24:45] <Tempt> aaanyway
[17:25:00] <Tempt> I have critical meetings in the morning (err, coffee with Oracle)
[17:25:06] <Tempt> So sleep time is due.
[17:25:07] <Berny> hehe
[17:25:10] <kaiwai> have fun
[17:25:15] <kaiwai> whats the meeting about?
[17:25:31] <kaiwai> how oracle can screw more money out of customers? how they can make their db run even slower?
[17:25:35] <Tempt> Nothing.
[17:25:41] <kaiwai> oh, ok
[17:25:42] <kaiwai> have fun :)
[17:25:44] <Tempt> It's about having a cup of coffee and talking shit
[17:25:47] <Tempt> Perhaps a cigarette
[17:26:29] <Tempt> Although I'm intrigued by your idea that Oracle is somehow slow.
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[17:27:11] <Tempt> anyway, I will not be baited so easily, I shall sleep. See you all tomorrow (or later today...)
[17:27:29] * Berny heads off to kitchen
[17:28:57] <kaiwai> *gives tempt a night cap*
[17:30:03] <quasi> Tempt: of course horacle is slow
[17:30:34] <quasi> Tempt: but yeah, don't feed the trol^kiwi ;)
[17:30:35] <delewis> you've never done cubes with Oracle and tried to implement the same functionality using unions, etc.
[17:30:59] <delewis> doing it with unions is terribl slow.
[17:31:03] <delewis> terribly*
[17:31:53] <kaiwai> quasi: just had a look at tpc, seems that oracle has lifted its game, before it was dominated by DB2, Sybase and MS SQL
[17:32:41] <delewis> Oracle does more than just TPC.
[17:32:47] <delewis> er transaction processing, that is.
[17:33:05] <delewis> even if Oracle's performance in that area isn't optimal, Oracle will still blow DB2 and MSSQL away when it comes to analytics.
[17:34:07] <kaiwai> seems that it performs very well with huge amounts of data
[17:34:38] <delewis> look at TPC-H.
[17:34:39] <quasi> kaiwai: TPC is about as useless a benchmark as you'll ever find
[17:34:46] <delewis> dominatd by Oracle.
[17:34:51] <delewis> dominated, rather.
[17:35:15] <kaiwai> quasi: depends; Sun didn't lose marketshare because of Linus's sparkling personality - thats for sure
[17:35:17] <delewis> (TPC-H is DSS stuff, basically analytics)
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[17:36:06] <delewis> Sun hasn't lost marketshare to Linux when it comes to databases, specifically Oracle.
[17:36:10] <delewis> IBM, maybe.
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[17:39:03] <kaiwai> hopefully Solaris on x86 should change things
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[17:52:23] <pauliukas> Man... It's taking so long to install.
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[17:52:39] <kaiwai> pauliukas: what are you installing?
[17:53:01] <pauliukas> Latest OpenSolaris Express on my laptop.
[17:53:08] <kaiwai> ah, graphical or console install?
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[17:53:16] <pauliukas> graphical..
[17:53:27] <kaiwai> I tend to use the console install, for some reason it works faster for me
[17:53:40] <pauliukas> It's only a terminal window inside of CDE :-P
[17:53:41] <pauliukas> They should call it "hybrid", not graphical
[17:53:42] <kaiwai> it takes a while, I think that has to do with the svr4 package more than anything else
[17:53:50] <kaiwai> lol
[17:54:08] <pauliukas> I don't think that it takes much away from the speed
[17:54:32] <kaiwai> hmm, seems to take its time parsing the package, like its reading all the files in it :P
[17:55:06] <kaiwai> anyway, which build is it?
[17:55:22] <pauliukas> 72
[17:55:52] <kaiwai> ah, interesting, and the cd drive was detected; neat, what model cd drive is it?
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[17:56:32] <kaiwai> hmm, I hope Sun adds h264 support to JavaFX
[17:58:21] <kaiwai> mind you, the downside, they're creating yet another slow and buggy solaris management tool in java
[17:58:27] <kaiwai> 'panels' - just fabulous
[17:59:45] <holcomb> maybe ibm will open smit
[17:59:54] <the-decider> can't wait.
[18:00:21] <kaiwai> or they could just use gtk+
[18:00:29] <CIA-24> carlsonj: 6203568 accumulating number of threads behind rw_lock in ire_walk_ill_tables IRB_REFRELE, 6591083 IP instances sis_check added stray entries to sparc ip module makefile
[18:00:30] <CIA-24> vk210190: 6318591 fdatasync(2) needs to set errno to EINVAL if fd is bound to a special file., 6320017 fsync(2) needs to set errno to EINVAL if fd is bound to a special file(such as pipe).
[18:00:31] <kaiwai> or *gasp* SWT
[18:00:32] <CIA-24> iz202018: 6557371 ldap_cachemgr daemon crashes in getldap_lookup(), if many servideSearchDescriptors are defined
[18:00:33] <CIA-24> kucharsk: 6602652 /usr/lib/brand/lx/lx_distro_install[148]: add_distro_list: not found
[18:02:45] <pauliukas> kaiwai: I'm using a DVD-ROM drive from an Apple computer inside my laptop. It's a gateway something
[18:04:44] <kaiwai> ah
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[18:05:03] <kaiwai> ok, some drives can't be found due to an ata change made in b72; my drive being that sort
[18:05:22] <kaiwai> the u25 of suns being another
[18:06:22] <pauliukas> oh okay.
[18:06:37] <pauliukas> But, I'm confused on this whole notion.
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[18:06:56] <pauliukas> What's the Solaris "distribution" or "version" that I should be running on production machines?
[18:07:08] <pauliukas> I heard that Solaris express is undated almost every week.
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[18:09:32] <kaiwai> solaris express community edition is if you want the latest and greatest
[18:09:43] <kaiwai> solaris express developer edition has undergone more testing
[18:09:57] <kaiwai> and solaris 10 is the officially supported distribution which comes with Sun support
[18:10:23] <pauliukas> But, for servers and workstations. What would be the best one to run?
[18:10:28] <kaiwai> pauliukas: it depends on what you want to do with it; for a desktop/laptop/etc its great, but if you have a server that needs 99.9999% uptime, then go for the officially supported version
[18:10:29] <pauliukas> The "real" Sun Solaris?
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[18:11:01] <pauliukas> I'm looking for exactly that, thanks.
[18:11:04] <kaiwai> there is no 'real' one is the 'development' line and one is the 'official and supported release'
[18:11:25] <kaiwai> pauliukas: if you've got a laptop, as you do, then SXDE is more appropriate
[18:11:57] <pauliukas> yeah
[18:12:04] <pauliukas> Does it at least support some kind of online updates?
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[18:12:27] <pauliukas> Like in RHEL "up2date" or Debian "apt-get update" to update to the latest release?"
[18:12:30] <kaiwai> pauliukas: nope
[18:12:38] <kaiwai> only the officially supported version does
[18:12:47] <pauliukas> oh, that sucks...
[18:12:57] <kaiwai> Indiana apparently will promise 'community support' once it is released, no eta on that btw
[18:13:08] <kaiwai> pauliukas: how so?
[18:13:43] <pauliukas> Because that means that I need to take a box offline just to update it.
[18:13:50] <RElling> I know of no OS that will provide 99.9999% uptime.
[18:14:18] <pauliukas> Linux wasn't too bad.
[18:14:26] <pauliukas> I had boxes with uptimes of 400+ days.
[18:14:43] <richlowe> RElling: 6 9's just to outpace the whole 5 9's argument? :)
[18:14:44] <pauliukas> It's just the idea of taking something offline for a few hours just to update.
[18:14:54] <richlowe> liveupgrade
[18:14:55] <pauliukas> It used to be simply a command that I had to run once in a while...
[18:14:58] <RElling> for 99.9999 you can't even detect something like an ethernet retrans
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[18:15:17] <pauliukas> brb
[18:15:21] <richlowe> all the joys of not leaving the machine out of action, all the joys of not clobbering libc on the running system and hoping.
[18:15:24] <kaiwai> pauliukas: you're installing it on a laptop; do you really need massive uptime?
[18:15:31] <pauliukas> kaiwai: For my laptop, no.
[18:15:42] <pauliukas> But I eventually want to use solaris in production webservers.
[18:15:47] <RElling> but we have lots of people who stay up for a long time, we had a system here (San Diego) that was up for over 1400 days, then we had to relocate the lab across the street :-)
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[18:16:23] <kaiwai> pauliukas: well then, use 'Solaris 10" for that
[18:16:38] <kaiwai> pauliukas: but even that, it only has rudamentry updates
[18:16:44] <richlowe> rudamentary?
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[18:17:07] <kaiwai> yeap
[18:17:17] <kaiwai> basic updates, don't expect bells and whistles
[18:17:20] <richlowe> the patches and updates aren't rudimentary.  The means of applying them are.
[18:17:28] <RElling> richlowe: maybe he thinks MS service packs are rudimentary too :-)
[18:17:35] <richlowe> in fact, with 10 *especially* there's far too many bells and whistles.
[18:17:38] <richlowe> feature patches are evil.
[18:18:14] <kaiwai> richlowe: mate, I said that because people expect features to be delivered; if people want features, people pay for features; if you're running a freebie, you'll get updates and security patches but nothing more
[18:18:23] <loke> 99.9999% uptime is actually one hour downtime per year...
[18:18:26] <loke> it's possible
[18:18:32] <loke> you can do a couple of reboots in that time
[18:19:16] <loke> bring it to 7 nines, and you'll be looking at trouble
[18:19:56] <kaiwai> hmm, true, true
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[18:20:22] <loke> I suppose 7 nines is chievable with some planning, and a good HA solution
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[18:20:36] <loke> 5 minutes per year downtime
[18:20:41] <kaiwai> loke: depends how you define system and downtime; in the case of a cluster
[18:20:46] <RElling> bzzzt.  6-9s is 31 seconds.
[18:21:02] <loke> kaiwai: of course. But for most sites, they're tlaking about application service downtime
[18:21:21] <richlowe> kaiwai: people want stuff to keep working.
[18:21:27] <loke> kaiwai: as long as the service is there, it doesn't really matter if the underlying machines rebooted
[18:21:29] <richlowe> kaiwai: feature patches increase the chances of that not being the case.
[18:21:40] <richlowe> very, very, very few people go "Wow, it's broken.  But at least it'd have $X if it worked!"
[18:21:53] <loke> richlowe: you always have a duplicate system used for testing
[18:21:54] <richlowe> and linux has that market cornered ;)
[18:22:52] <loke> My customers are like that (and these are quite large systems). They have a duplicate system, where every single system change is tested for weeks before it's performed on the live system. And even then, they make sure they can roll back a backup during the service window in case of problems
[18:23:02] <richlowe> loke: people are no less annoyed when stuff breaks in testing.
[18:23:06] <richlowe> it still broke, it just didn't break it production.
[18:23:51] <loke> richlowe: of course, but these are banks we're talking about. If it breaks, they yell at the vendor (us) and tells us that that the next upgrade on the test environment better work or else :-)
[18:24:03] <loke> then they test for a few more months, and perhaps they might go into production with it
[18:24:14] <loke> and this is not just OS changes. It's also application config and pretty much everything
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[18:36:53] <nachox> they are not rudimentary, they are patches, by definition they fix stuff and do not add new features
[18:37:07] <nachox> ops late
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[18:38:51] <bigjohnto> hello, i have a tape that has an issue, the tape will contain DATA then have multiple EOF's and then contain more data and one EOF and so on so forth..... the mulitple EOF's is confusing my program making it think that the tape is empty but it really is not, how can i resolve that?  any way to remove the multiple EOF's?
[18:39:15] <wesolows> you mean short of mt erase?
[18:39:57] <bigjohnto> well would that work?
[18:41:24] <bigjohnto> mt erase would erase the entire tape, i just need to remove redundant EOF's
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[18:55:07] <RElling> bigjohnto: see the mt man page for a discussion on managing tapes with multiple EOFs
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[19:09:07] <pauliukas> The half an hour bootup is so awesome
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[19:10:34] <RElling> pauliukas: has a little girly man machine... or was it just the first boot after install?
[19:11:21] <pauliukas> first after install.
[19:11:24] <pauliukas> On my craptop.
[19:11:43] <pauliukas> AMD 2500+, 512MB RAM, 40GB 4200rpm
[19:12:09] <RElling> yeah it takes little while to load the SMF repository... twice as fast on a dual core, but fast disk helps too.  You  won't see this on subsequent boots
[19:12:32] <pauliukas> It's done that part.
[19:12:44] <pauliukas> Now it spit out about 10 errors on the console, and the drive is grinding away
[19:12:47] <RElling> it takes about  1.5 minutes on my desktop, fast disk, dual core
[19:13:15] <pauliukas> well, of course.
[19:13:27] <pauliukas> My main iMac takes a bit more than 30 seconds to boot.
[19:14:03] <RElling> you'll probably get a bunch of stupid sendmail complaints, too, which are annoying but harmless
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[19:14:15] <pauliukas> Yeah, that.
[19:14:25] <RElling> hmmm... my Mac takes about 3 minutes to boot...
[19:14:34] <pauliukas> Also install-service not found. And also webconsole fatal failure.
[19:14:52] <pauliukas> Yay. X started.
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[19:15:08] <pauliukas> I'll let it grind before I try logging in.
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[19:29:44] <theRealballchalk> hey guys do we have openssl libs included in b55 sxde?
[19:29:58] <wesolows> undoubtedly
[19:30:09] <wesolows> openssl has been there for a long long time
[19:30:24] <delewis> since 3/05, anyway.
[19:30:26] <theRealballchalk> heh ok some paths incorrect then
[19:31:28] <alanc> openssl library version changed about a year ago (don't remember if it was before or after b55) - and since it was binary incompatible they changed the so version and stuff linked with old libs can't find them anymore
[19:32:28] <alanc> .so.0.9.7 vs. .so.0.9.8 if I remember correctly
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[19:33:53] <delewis> so how safe is it to just do ln -s if they're incompatible? I haven't run into any problems so far by linking the newer version to the older one.
[19:34:31] <alanc> no clue
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[19:37:42] <etteyafed> I am pondering a question that has no easy answer, but concerns both linux and opensolaris.
[19:38:52] <etteyafed>  I guess I was wondering what is the better general use kernel. Not so much as far as hardware support or current features and such, just which one has the better design. And why is one or the other better. I know that it is tempting to say that they are not better, just different. I think that one has to be better, or faster, or more secure, or something. They cannot be both the same because they are so fundamentally diffe
[19:38:58] <etteyafed> This is really more academic than anything.
[19:39:23] <kaiwai> solaris
[19:39:25] <pauliukas> etteyafed: I think Solaris is the winner, if you put in that way.
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[19:39:30] <kaiwai> its better because I said so :-)
[19:39:33] <pauliukas> I'm switching from Linux to Solaris.
[19:39:37] <wesolows> you're asking this question in a somewhat biased environment
[19:39:51] <kaiwai> wesolows: biased? never!
[19:39:59] <pauliukas> lol
[19:40:01] <etteyafed> Well I had expected such an answer in #opensolaris, but the why is the clincher.
[19:40:04] <kaiwai> I routinely promote MacOS X when required :-)
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[19:40:26] <LeftWing> I think you're also acknowledging that it's a multidimensional problem, and yet requesting an absolute answer anyway. ;P
[19:40:33] <kaiwai> etteyafed: there are lots of 'technically superior' kernels out there, it depends on how you define 'technically superior'
[19:40:37] <etteyafed> I like the old amiga kernel best myself ;)
[19:40:47] <wesolows> I found Linux to be sloppy, especially architecturally.  There was no real desire to get it right the first time, so people would just do something that seemed good without really thinking it through, expecting that they could just make arbitrary changes later if it didn't work out.
[19:40:59] <kaiwai> one could argue that QNX RTP and Plan9 are superior
[19:41:02] <wesolows> We're generally a lot more disciplined in OpenSolaris.
[19:41:02] <RElling> guru meditation was always fun :-)
[19:41:55] <kaiwai> wesolows: I did a massive rant on osnews.com about how linux programmers chuck shit agains the wall and see which sticks rather than designing something to solve a problem
[19:42:02] <kaiwai> *against
[19:42:03] <libkeiser> completely agree with wesolows there.  software engineering is not a priority with the linux kernel people.  their apis generally show a lack of planning or foresight.  abi stability for kernel modules on linux is a joke
[19:42:12] <etteyafed> Not so mush LeftW I was just curious about the major differences, and if there were any that pointed in the direction of a superior design
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[19:43:01] <delewis> libkeiser: that's the point. If they provided a stable module interfaces, vendors would be able to ship binary modules easier.
[19:43:15] <kaiwai> libkeiser: well, linus actually praised 'lack of design' as a benefit to linux - buggered if I know how he made that leap of faith
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[19:44:28] <kaiwai> delewis: but to have a stable interface will require months of paper work and design rather than firing code at a problem - where is the fun in that?
[19:44:29] <etteyafed> Well I find myself that the Linux kernel is very good at alot of things, but fails in providing a safe place for drivers, and is a bit lax with memory protection, esp in kernelspace.
[19:44:34] <LeftWing> I suppose if you genuinely believe that the only people who should be maintaining kernel drivers are the one true kernel team, then you could potentially live with no public interfaces...
[19:44:41] <libkeiser> yeah. of course that design philosophy also screws over open source projects which don't want to/can't integrate their code into the kernel proper
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[19:45:30] <wesolows> The Committed DDI interfaces are nice, but I don't see them as a huge differentiator, because the NDI remains Private.
[19:45:45] <etteyafed> So opensolaris provides a good place for drivers, and an api for userspace drivers?
[19:46:15] <wesolows> There is no memory protection in kernel space, not in any meaningful sense.
[19:46:27] <etteyafed> Yes and there could be
[19:46:31] <etteyafed> easily
[19:46:40] <etteyafed> with no speed loss
[19:46:49] <wesolows> That's what the Supervisor bit *means*
[19:47:34] <kaiwai> NDI?
[19:47:35] <wesolows> If you want to write a microkernel, you can.  OpenSolaris isn't such a thing.
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[19:47:45] <wesolows> kaiwai: Nexus Driver Interface
[19:48:01] <kaiwai> ah, so you write against DDI not NDI?
[19:48:12] <libkeiser> agreed. the DDI is still too limited in scope to be useful for many cases, but at least it's a step in the right direction
[19:48:20] <etteyafed> I think I could do it in any code, with any design model
[19:48:22] <wesolows> kaiwai: Necessary for writing drivers for buses and other fabrics, as well as for some interesting "leaf-like" devices that are actually multifunction.
[19:48:29] <etteyafed> with relative address
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[19:49:31] <kaiwai> regarding userspace drivers, I think he is thinking along the lines of FUSE, audio drivers in user space etc.
[19:49:38] <etteyafed> simply process every access to memory relative to that code or processes allocated memory space
[19:49:56] <wesolows> That's not memory protection
[19:50:13] <etteyafed> in effect it is
[19:50:16] <wesolows> That's changing the code
[19:50:59] <wesolows> No, memory protection means thacode containing arbitrary memory accesses legal on the ISA in question can be isolated from other code (and its data).
[19:51:11] <etteyafed> no program or code can touch memory that it does not "own". yes code would need to change but not alot
[19:51:26] <wesolows> Well, if you have an implementation, let us know.
[19:52:09] <sponix> I read somewhere that there is a Boot Disk with Detection Tool, to see if your hardware is Solaris Compatible, anyone know the URL for that off the top of their head ?
[19:52:12] <wesolows> When the Supervisor bit is on, you can touch any memory, period.
[19:52:20] <kaiwai> yeap, that would be cool, the flagdays are looking pretty quiet these days
[19:52:55] <quasi> sponix: see sun.com/hcl - shoudln't be too hard to find from there
[19:52:56] <etteyafed> haha. No, i am not going to try to dump a load of hack on anyone's kernel, but it is an idea.
[19:53:01] <alanc> sponix: http://www.sun.com/bigadmin/hcl/
[19:53:14] <quasi> yah, forgot bigadmin
[19:53:32] <wesolows> So either you're talking about a microkernel where most of this stuff runs in userland (supervisor bit off), or you're talking about some kind of cooperative unenforceable gentlemen's agreement about how code is going to be compiled and executed.
[19:53:44] <sponix> alanc:  thanks
[19:53:44] <wesolows> Which, lo and behold, is what we have already today.
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[19:54:01] <libkeiser> etteyafed: go look at the 390 isa. they support more finely granular memory protection domains.
[19:54:25] <wesolows> yes, with special hardware support...anything is possible.  But not on any ISA we support today.
[19:54:32] <kaiwai> iirc aren't ibm gradually moving their mainframes to POWER?
[19:54:57] <quasi> kaiwai: hardly - they make too much off painframe customers
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[19:55:50] <kaiwai> quasi: and it would kinda ruin scotts day if ibm stopped sucking cash from customers :P
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[19:56:51] <etteyafed> Well a bit of a land between. Say you declare a pointer, and you set that pointer to address memory at location x. x is relative to total system memory on all systems i know
[19:56:54] <LeftWing> I'm sure if they ever do try and strategically reposition customer's installations, the new solution will be At Least as expensive as the old one.
[19:57:40] <quasi> kaiwai: eh? not making much sense as usual
[19:58:13] <etteyafed> if x was relative to that program stack, and all overflow set == to top of stack, there is no access violation.
[19:58:14] <sickness> uh, I see that snv72 will bring us an updated sata framework with nvidia support, does that mean that it's better to do a zpool export before upgrade, and import after reboot?
[19:58:30] <libkeiser> kaiwai: what they're doing is using POWER chips as channel processors
[19:58:31] <wesolows> etteyafed: It's an absolute address within the virtual address space active at the time.
[19:58:34] <kaiwai> quasi: please, if your memory is broken, don't reply
[19:59:03] <wesolows> etteyafed: On SPARC, for example, the kernel address space is separate from the user address spaces.
[19:59:26] <quasi> kaiwai: your "logic" is what's broken - but not to worry, I don't have time to play
[19:59:53] <wesolows> But it's very rarely a physical address that can be put on the bus - usually that's bootloader/firmware bootstrapping code only, and on some platforms not even then.
[20:00:02] <etteyafed> Take that further and isolate a code block's access to memory is this way with a virtual stack table and it could be used in kernel space
[20:00:15] <kaiwai> quasi: you dip shit, you obviously don't remember what mcnealy used to say about IBm around 8 years ago
[20:00:27] <kaiwai> hence, unless you actually have a fucking memory, shut your trap
[20:00:39] <wesolows> Isolate it *how*?  It's running with the Kernel bit set!
[20:01:07] <wesolows> And don't say you're going to give it its own address space, because then it can't call kernel functions.
[20:01:48] <wesolows> You might be thinking of some kind of multi-level privilege implementation like x86 has (but we don't use) or like MIPS used to have (but no one used, in part because they never tested it and it was full of bugs)
[20:01:50] <etteyafed> The virtual address space that it lives in would have to include such things
[20:02:34] <libkeiser> what "things"?
[20:03:40] <wesolows> Right - so if your address space includes, let's say, an implementation of strcmp(9F), and the kernel bit is set, then guess what?  You have two choices: you can mark that code read-only and panic if you take a protection fault, or you can let the code scribble over strcmp().  You can't fix it up, nor can you prevent the code in question from arbitrarily changing the protection bits anyway.  The Kernel bit is strong mojo.
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[20:03:44] <quasi> kaiwai: I won't jump in the gutter with you - please /ignore quasi and leave me out of your unwarranted profanities
[20:04:50] <etteyafed> Things like kernel functions and access to other system memory that it needs. The problem here is that i can't figure out how to automatically pick what address space needs to be mapped into the virtual table.
[20:05:26] <wesolows> It hardly matters anyway, because a driver can always give a device a bus/physical address it doesn't own and then ask that device to DMA into it.
[20:05:48] <kaiwai> quasi: pardon, you were the one make snide and stupid remarks about things you are completely clueless about; you had the option to zip it but you had to cram you 5cents worth in to some how symbolicly say "i'm here and justifying my consumption of bandwidth'.
[20:06:01] <wesolows> Let's play "who wants to get kicked?"
[20:06:50] <quasi> wesolows: I ain't playing - /ignore update to clear out the noise
[20:07:06] <etteyafed> A thing like that would need to be implemented from the ground up anyhow so it is not really relavent to existing systems anyhow. sorry for the waste of time and energy
[20:07:46] <wesolows> etteyafed: Well, now you're talking - it really would take top to bottom hardware support, with much more complex MMUs and IOMMUs than the ones we have today.
[20:07:50] <theRealballchalk> what do i change if an include file is in openssl/xxx.h and building doesn't see it?
[20:08:01] <theRealballchalk> set path?
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[20:08:20] <delewis> no, use set CPPFLAGS properly.
[20:08:26] <delewis> s/use/you/
[20:08:58] <wesolows> You should generally #include <openssl/xxx.h>
[20:09:11] <wesolows> not -I/usr/.../include/openssl
[20:09:12] <libkeiser> yeah. i'm really curious whether the aix6 guys are doing anything to restrict device dmas, or whether their kernel subsystem isolation magic only applies to accesses performed by power6 procs
[20:09:22] <theRealballchalk> the c file has <openssl/opensslconf.h> and everything is in /usr/sfw/include/openssl
[20:09:39] <wesolows> libkeiser: It's certainly possible, with a smart enough IOMMU, but jeez, what an expensive thing to do in hardware.
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[20:10:07] <wesolows> theRealballchalk: then -I/usr/sfw/include
[20:10:08] <delewis> libkeiser: no clue. I wouldn't put it past them to do it in software. AIX does some crazy things at kernel-level.
[20:10:29] <wesolows> I just got through explaining why it's not possible in software.
[20:10:49] <theRealballchalk> wesolows: -l?
[20:11:03] <wesolows> theRealballchalk: -I/usr/sfw/include (that's cap-EYE)
[20:11:13] <delewis> CPPFLAGS="-I/usr/sfw/include" for crying out loud.
[20:11:22] <theRealballchalk> delewis: ohhhhhh
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[20:11:26] <theRealballchalk> haha thanks
[20:11:29] <delewis> you'll probably want to set LDFLAGS properly, as well.
[20:11:43] <delewis> LDFLAGS="-L/usr/sfw/lib -Wl,-R/usr/sfw/lib"
[20:11:47] * theRealballchalk on his way to hacking iphone bins
[20:12:18] <wesolows> What compiler won't take -R directly?!
[20:12:26] <elektronkind> gcc
[20:12:28] <theRealballchalk> ok
[20:12:38] <wesolows> huh...I thought it did.  Weird.
[20:12:42] <elektronkind> gcc sometimes requires -rpath
[20:12:43] <delewis> most compilers gripe about usage of -R if you aren't doing linking.
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[20:13:08] <wesolows> Well, that's true - which is why you put it in LDFLAGS or LDLIBS, not CFLAGS
[20:13:12] <delewis> if you're doig compilationg and linking in one stop, -R is OK, but I prefer to use LDFLAGS for that when possible.
[20:13:20] <wesolows> agreed
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[20:21:13] <hohum_> has anyone here ever written a Solaris device driver before that can lend me a helping hand with something?
[20:21:14] <hohum_> http://rafb.net/p/Bo8lDT48.html
[20:21:47] <hohum_> it doesn't look like my attach proc is even being called
[20:22:44] <wesolows> how are you trying to attach it?
[20:22:50] <wesolows> You need to use something like add_drv
[20:22:59] <wesolows> Does the module get loaded at least?
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[20:23:22] <hohum_> # add_drv testdriver
[20:23:23] <hohum_> devfsadm: driver failed to attach: testdriver
[20:23:23] <hohum_> Warning: Driver (testdriver) successfully added to system but failed to attach
[20:23:56] <wesolows> what is this supposed to attach to?
[20:23:57] <hohum_> the attach procedure simply tries to create the minor device but always returns DDI_SUCCESS
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[20:24:13] <wesolows> By default it will attach only to something with its own name, which surely doesn't exist
[20:24:18] <hohum_> it's a pseudo driver so it isn't supposed to attach to anything
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[20:24:33] <wesolows> Then you need a testdriver.conf that specifies a pseudo parent
[20:25:03] <wesolows> There are plenty of existing examples in /kernel/drv (dtrace.conf for one)
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[20:27:23] <Fish-> hello
[20:28:41] <hohum_> name="testdriver" parent="pseudo" instance=0;
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[20:29:14] <hohum_> # add_drv testdriver
[20:29:14] <hohum_> devfsadm: driver failed to attach: testdriver
[20:29:15] <hohum_> Warning: Driver (testdriver) successfully added to system but failed to attach
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[20:31:09] <wesolows> At this point my advice to you would be to look at the numerous example drivers in the WDD and DDT guides, check the system logs to see whether anything is being logged (for example, is your testdriver.conf in the right place for the system to pick it up?), and think about using DTrace to investigate.
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[20:32:01] <nrubsig> jmcp: ping!
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[20:35:55] <hohum_> damnit
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[20:40:51] <nrubsig> jmcp: ping!
[20:40:58] <nrubsig> alanc: ping!
[20:41:19] <sickness> nrubsig: pong!
[20:41:36] <sickness> :P
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[21:03:58] <trochej> everyone: ping!
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[21:12:50] <dosiu> pong!
[21:13:27] <trochej> :)
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[21:21:19] <alanc> nrubsig: pong
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[22:09:59] <axisys> anyone know a trick to get a cd out of x4100? i have no os and pressing the button not working
[22:11:58] <wesolows> power cycle the box and press the button as it comes up?
[22:12:11] <wesolows> failing that, you may be able to remove the faceplate and use a paperclip
[22:13:30] <sommerfeld> it looks like at least some X4100 drives don't have a paperclip button.
[22:13:44] <wesolows> Certainly not one that's accessible, no
[22:13:53] <wesolows> What a misdesign
[22:14:12] <wesolows> Another option is to install an OS, then eject it
[22:14:30] <wesolows> You can use ^N to boot from the network
[22:14:35] <wesolows> that will bypass the CD
[22:16:42] <Tpenta> does it have that little hole you can push a bent paper clip in to manually eject it?
[22:17:09] <g4lt-sb100> sommerfeld it looks like at least some X4100 drives don't have a paperclip button.
[22:17:09] <wesolows> if it does, you'd have to take the faceplate off to get at it - sommerfeld has presumably done this and says no
[22:17:29] <jmcp> how about connecting to the SP and telling the SP to eject it?
[22:17:32] * elektronkind wonders why ddi_name_to_major isn't Public
[22:17:35] <sommerfeld> actually, i just looked at the sun system handbook
[22:17:48] <Teknix> jmcp: you can't do that from the SP afaik.. you might be able to use the remote kvm
[22:17:51] <wesolows> hmm, I could go into the data centre and look
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[22:18:41] <sommerfeld> there were a bunch of part numbers which said "The drive does not include a hole for forced ejection."
[22:18:46] <wesolows> I guess I'm curious why the button doesn't work shortly after power-on
[22:19:08] <sommerfeld> "your CD was tasty but needed more salt"
[22:19:51] <WickedWicky> steamhammer might work
[22:20:07] <Teknix> axisys: do you have a network jumpstart environment setup?
[22:20:17] <jmcp> Teknix: I was sure you could, seemed to me that the x4[12]00's SP can do heaps
[22:20:52] <wesolows> it can do almost nothing, truth be told
[22:20:57] <wesolows> and that, not well
[22:20:57] <Teknix> jmcp: heaps of poo maybe..
[22:21:12] <jmcp> ha
[22:21:14] <wesolows> they should really have saved a bunch of money and used some simplistic RPC
[22:21:23] <sommerfeld> x4100 SP will download you a java app which will engage in consentual hallucination of a virtual dvd image from a file in your filesystem.
[22:21:27] <wesolows> which is the only thing it's even vaguely good for
[22:21:39] <Teknix> i'v used the virtual dvd stuff and it works
[22:21:41] <sommerfeld> but you'll generally be happier using pxe boot
[22:21:51] <Teknix> i just don't remember offhand if it lets you eject the dvd
[22:22:01] <wesolows> the virtual CD feature is nifty but not really useful; it's horribly slow, and booting from the network is what you really want anyway
[22:22:35] <Teknix> wesolows: it was useful for linux
[22:22:40] <Teknix> and didn't seem that slow to me
[22:22:45] <wesolows> but linux isn't useful itself, so... :-)
[22:22:55] <Teknix> that's a different thing altogether :)
[22:23:08] <sommerfeld> i could see using it in one use case: when I have a colo'ed machine all by its lonesome
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[22:23:39] <Teknix> yes, that makes it worthwhile
[22:25:26] <wesolows> well, if nothing else, I'll freely admit that it's very clever
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[22:35:09] <nrubsig> flash cash No. 2483342368342541235444353636577812480642124
[22:35:42] <e^ipi> bling bling
[22:36:08] <sommerfeld> uh, what?
[22:36:20] <e^ipi> *shrug*
[22:37:59] <IPGHOST> hi'
[22:38:24] <jbk> afternoon
[22:38:36] <nrubsig> sommerfeld: blong blong
[22:39:45] <nrubsig> "Embedded SQL support for Korn Shell ksh93"
[22:39:48] <nrubsig> *tilt*
[22:40:00] <dennis-> wtf?
[22:40:27] <nrubsig> I'm not kidding: http://unix.derkeiler.com/Newsgroups/comp.unix.shell/2007-09/msg00258.html
[22:40:28] * FireflyST drops the deuce on ksh93
[22:40:38] <nrubsig> "deuce"=?
[22:40:45] <FireflyST> feces
[22:41:14] * nrubsig fights back with elephant dung
[22:44:33] * delewis dumps napalm on nrubsig
[22:45:21] <wesolows> highbrow discussion we've got going here
[22:45:38] * jmcp yawns and goes back emails
[22:48:20] <e^ipi> what in the shit would a shell need database access for?
[22:48:46] <elektronkind> envronment variables!
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[22:49:34] <e^ipi> your $PATH can't possibly be that long, and if it is you're a horrible person and should be ashamed
[22:50:15] <jbk> e^ipi: you've never messed with hp/ux :)
[22:50:36] <jbk> it's quite common to see $PATH and $MANPATH take up over half your screen when printed
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[22:51:59] <SYS64738> is there someone who use postgrey for postfix under solaris ?
[22:53:03] <nrubsig> e^ipi: take a look at this compound variable value: http://opensolaris.pastebin.ca/raw/683236
[22:58:25] <delewis> oh, my eyes!
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[23:00:47] <ocr> can I safely pkgrm CSWapache in the globalzone, and it'll do so on all the zones too?
[23:01:08] <hile_> what the fuck drugs are you on roland?
[23:01:18] <jmcp> hile_: just his normal load
[23:01:25] <hile_> ocr, it probably should
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[23:01:53] <nrubsig> hile_: ... and your problem is... ?
[23:03:05] <delewis> what exactly do you mean by "embedded SQL support"?
[23:03:41] <delewis> if you just want to use SQL in the way Perl and PHP use it, you just link with those libs, but that would make your binary not redistributable.
[23:03:52] <nrubsig> delewis: http://unix.derkeiler.com/Newsgroups/comp.unix.shell/2007-09/msg00258.html
[23:04:01] <steleman> delewis: older RDB systems came with an Embedded SQL precompiler
[23:04:06] <delewis> or are you wanting to do something as assinine as actually giving ksh93 the ability to interpret the SQL statement and do god-knows-what?
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[23:04:22] <steleman> delewis: which means you had to write SQL inside your C source files then run those through the ESQL precompiler then compile
[23:04:35] <delewis> steleman: that's still available, usually.
[23:04:36] <steleman> but that was a looooong time ago
[23:04:43] <steleman> and it was a PITA
[23:04:46] <delewis> Oracle and DB2, both, still support it.
[23:04:50] <steleman> and Sybase
[23:05:08] <steleman> i doubt anyone uses that thing anylonger
[23:05:08] <delewis> I'm just trying to figure out what he means by "embedded SQL support"
[23:05:26] <steleman> sqlsh ?
[23:05:26] <nrubsig> delewis: that wasn't my idea, I just read http://unix.derkeiler.com/Newsgroups/comp.unix.shell/2007-09/msg00258.html
[23:05:29] * steleman ducks
[23:05:31] <nrubsig> groan
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[23:05:49] <steleman> we need sqlksh93sh
[23:05:59] <nrubsig> NMI=NotMyIdea
[23:06:00] <holcomb> select * from dir.current where mode=755;
[23:06:07] <delewis> the author of that just wants ksh93 to be able to call whatever functions the database libraries provide to issue statements and get the data returned.
[23:06:11] <bda> agh
[23:06:14] <delewis> and that's not practical for your situation, roland.
[23:06:27] <nrubsig> delewis: erm...
[23:06:34] <nrubsig> delewis: I didn't intend to do anything.
[23:06:48] <delewis> ksh93 wouldn't be distributable if you wanted to link with the Oracle libraries, and implementing what the Oracle libraries provide is no simple task.
[23:06:53] <steleman> sql support in a shell. for that lightweight, fluffy feeling.
[23:07:05] <e^ipi> Ksh93: "Take that, 'do one thing and do it well' UNIX philosophy"
[23:07:09] <delewis> and that goes for any other database.
[23:07:12] <nrubsig> delewis: I can always create a plugin for ksh93.
[23:07:52] <steleman> don't forget CORBA, OpenLDAP, Kerberos, SASL, SNMP and OpenView support in a shell.
[23:07:53] <delewis> or could just tell such a user that he's on crack and to just use the solutions he's already of aware of (as evidenced in his post)
[23:08:14] <delewis> with db2 you can do $(db2 "$SQLSTATEMENT")
[23:08:21] <delewis> Oracle requires a here statement, but it works.
[23:08:42] <nrubsig> Mhhhh... Oracle support.
[23:08:53] * nrubsig ... dreams...
[23:09:26] <PerterB> Oracle support is easy... "sqlplus <<EOS | awk 'blah'"
[23:09:43] <nrubsig> http://opensolaris.pastebin.ca/raw/683236 could be turned into an XML-based database demo.
[23:09:45] <delewis> and DB2 is even easier.
[23:09:46] <nrubsig> erm
[23:09:55] <delewis> just call 'db2" and pass a SQL statement.
[23:09:56] <e^ipi> PerterB: but then it's not a shell primitive!!!
[23:10:01] <delewis> (as I illustrated 60 seconds ago)
[23:10:07] <nrubsig> I mean http://svn.genunix.org/repos/on/branches/ksh93/gisburn/scripts/xmldocumenttree1.ksh could be turned into an XML-based database demo.
[23:10:16] * delewis waits for 'OMG, it's a fork!'
[23:10:17] <PerterB> e^ipi: it's primitive enough for me, thanks
[23:10:41] <delewis> PerterB: just think of all the fork()s...
[23:11:21] <PerterB> well, if efficiency mattered, why the hell would we be doing database access froma shell script _at all_? :)
[23:11:35] <delewis> exactly.
[23:11:51] <delewis> if efficiency mattered, you'd write a PL/SQL program and just call it from the connecting client.
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[23:12:06] <delewis> at least for Oracle or DB2, anyway.
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[23:20:07] <FireflyST> delewis:you see my pm?
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