[00:00:14] <CIA-26> jc25722: 6598310 Basic CPU DR sequence trips over an assert in pg_cmt_cpu_init()
[00:01:20] <jbk> evening
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[00:10:43] <hspaans> 'day all
[00:13:13] <hspaans> this is not directly opensolaris related but why is ipnodes linked to hosts in /etc/inet ? wasn't this forbidden before?
[00:13:31] <sommerfeld> it was never forbidden before
[00:13:42] <sommerfeld> it just wasn't the default, and it got undone by an upgrade
[00:14:06] <hspaans> wasn't it forbidden to have ipv6 addresses in hosts?
[00:14:30] <sommerfeld> no, it wasn't forbidden
[00:14:30] <flyingparchment> it was realised that ipnodes was stupid so it went away
[00:14:41] <hspaans> noticed it with sol10 8/07
[00:14:58] <hspaans> a good to know ;-)
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[00:15:39] <sommerfeld> the people who created ipnodes were unnecessarily risk-averse
[00:16:07] <sommerfeld> implementation experience on other platforms showed that dropping ipv6 addresses in /etc/hosts didn't cause your milk to curdle
[00:16:12] <kjetilho> it's still a separate category in nsswitch.conf, though?
[00:16:37] <sommerfeld> yes.  changing that is a little more complex
[00:17:21] <kjetilho> and it's useful to be able to disable AAAA lookups
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[00:29:31] <SYS64738> hi
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[00:30:59] * elektronkind is gone. Setting up Java. Please wait...
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[00:32:37] <SYS64738> is it possible to restore a zone from a filesystem ?
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[00:40:22] * elektronkind is back. "Linux: The choice of a GNU generation"
[00:40:29] <elektronkind> man, that's funny
[00:40:51] <elektronkind> heh. silly and ironic default /back sayings in my ircclient
[00:41:10] <flyingparchment> using a client that produces public /away messages is your first problem :)
[00:41:38] <elektronkind> hey, it's LiCe+epic. been using it for 15 years ;)
[00:41:48] <flyingparchment> lice :(
[00:41:49] <nrubsig> Erm, stupid question: B52 flies around.... with atom bombs under it's wings... why does the US make such a fuss about that ?
[00:42:02] * the-decider wonders why he's still at work
[00:42:06] <nrubsig> Why is that a scandal ?
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[00:42:20] <wesolows> no politics here!
[00:42:33] <RElling> vote for me!
[00:42:34] <sommerfeld> nrubsig: any deviation from process in handling nukes is taken seriously.
[00:42:40] <elektronkind> B52s fly with nuke ordinance more than people realize
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[00:43:15] <delewis> right, but I would assume that procedures differ when nukes are onboard and when nukes are not onboard.
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[00:43:40] <nrubsig> sommerfeld: yeah, but how can someone "forget" that you've nuked under your own wings ?
[00:43:41] <elektronkind> the problem here is that they thought the warheads had been removed from the missiles before loading them onto the B-52. There weren't.
[00:43:59] <nrubsig> elektronkind: ok
[00:44:02] <elektronkind> so the warheads themselves were unaccounted for until the plane landed and they checked
[00:44:02] <nrubsig> elektronkind: ouch
[00:44:24] <nrubsig> elektronkind: nice suprise
[00:44:39] <elektronkind> the missiles were being transfered to another base for disassembly
[00:44:45] <nrubsig> elektronkind: may be the opportunity for the technicians to sell the stuff
[00:45:03] <delewis> nrubsig: no, we're currently consolidating fissile material from old weapons to create new ones.
[00:45:26] <delewis> that either starts this year or next year.
[00:45:31] <nrubsig> delewis: I mean the technicans could've shut up and sold the stuff
[00:45:44] <elektronkind> warhead disassembly happens in new mexico at Los Alomos
[00:45:47] <nrubsig> delewis: and noone would know it, right ?
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[00:46:10] <the-decider> where we surplus the parts and sell them to iran, only to complain that they're building nukes.
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[00:46:15] <delewis> nrubsig: I'm sure someone would see a gap in the inventory :-)
[00:46:26] <the-decider> "We have a mine shaft gap!"
[00:46:44] <the-decider> (watched dr. strangelove twice this weekend.)
[00:46:50] <sommerfeld> actually, aviation buffs are annoyed that the navy is trashing F14's (lest spare parts find their way to iran, who still has a few in service)
[00:46:51] <delewis> IIRC, we account for every kilogram of fissile material.
[00:47:11] <nrubsig> delewis: it may be interesting to see if they do some test firing with these missles... the suprise would be... uhm... big&&hot
[00:47:14] <delewis> not just individual weapons, but the material that's used in them.
[00:47:14] <elektronkind> the-decider: any suggestions on male:female ratio for protecting the human race while in said mine shafts?
[00:47:28] <sommerfeld> I suspect someone will have to write a 500-page report on the incident.  like the one on http://spaceflightnow.com/news/n0410/04noaanreport/
[00:47:29] <kjetilho> delewis: how many kilos of material is in an average bomb?
[00:47:39] <delewis> nrubsig: you don't 'fire' them, really.
[00:47:48] <the-decider> 1:10, of course.  they would have to be selected for their breeding potential...
[00:48:09] <delewis> a seperate unit descends to the ground via parachute and detonates when it touches the ground or at a defined altitude.
[00:48:17] <delewis> You don't want a hard landing damanging the firing package.
[00:48:23] <delewis> damaging, rather.
[00:48:57] <elektronkind> yeah, the options are called "airburst" or "lay-down"
[00:49:00] <the-decider> I thought a cowboy got on the end of the warhead; the increased drag would slow the descent, right?
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[00:49:12] <delewis> kjetilho: that's probably classified information, as one would be able to infer how 'good' our purification process is.
[00:49:33] <nrubsig> http://www.nrubsig.org/ksh93_ray_test20070904_c001.jpg updated, now with simple 2x2 anti-aliasing and multi-depth scatter buffer
[00:50:23] <elektronkind> Solaris Ben-Wah balls!
[00:50:42] <the-decider> nrubsig: ray tracing with ksh.  You've gone just one step over the line, man!
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[00:53:04] <nrubsig> the-decider: why ? It works.... :-)
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[01:06:39] <nrubsig> http://spaceflightnow.com/news/n0410/04noaanreport/ is fun to read.... 46k of things which went wrong... =:-)
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[01:08:08] <sommerfeld> more like 4MB and 113 pages in the actual mishap report
[01:08:19] <elektronkind> and those spacecraft guys... they have procedures for everything. even for taking a piss.
[01:09:07] <nrubsig> Problem seems: Too many regulations and a lack of common sense and brain.
[01:09:10] <sommerfeld> all because of a bunch of missing bolts
[01:09:29] <nrubsig> sommerfeld: it seems they even noticed the problem and didn't care.
[01:09:38] <jmcp> elektronkind: when you're up in space, you *want* to know that there is a procedure for everything
[01:09:45] <wesolows> no.  common sense and brain often fail in stressful situations
[01:09:55] <wesolows> it's critical for safety that everything that can be planned for, is
[01:10:15] <jmcp> elektronkind: Apollo 13 is, I believe, an excellent example of that
[01:10:18] <nrubsig> That's why there will never be babies in space.
[01:10:21] <wesolows> that way the principals can just open their flight manuals to page 23492 and follow the step by step procedures that have been pre-vetted
[01:10:28] <elektronkind> I can imagine those 24 bolts were spec'd to be installed in a certain order, with an exact torque, and so on
[01:11:13] <wesolows> The Feynman report on the Challenger disaster is a good example of people bending the rules and not getting away with it.
[01:11:38] <sommerfeld> And the danger of yielding to management pressure to ship before you're ready
[01:11:42] <nrubsig> wesolows: well, you can't bend physics
[01:11:47] <wesolows> that too, yes
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[01:11:56] <wesolows> nrubsig: Read the stuff about the engines.
[01:12:11] <nrubsig> wesolows: you can try, see challanger or Prof. Richter... =:-)
[01:12:14] <wesolows> nrubsig: Especially the cracked turbine blades.
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[01:12:46] <sickness> was someone able to install Digest::SHA1 on a recent snv?
[01:13:01] <sickness> perl -MCPAN -e 'install Digest::SHA1' always fails on me :/
[01:13:14] <nrubsig> wesolows: which failed engines ?
[01:13:26] <wesolows> hmm, I am quite sure we install that module, but not using the CPAN build system - I wrote our own makefiles for that
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[01:13:57] <wesolows> nrubsig: The section is about how the engines are tested and what constitutes flight-safety and acceptable rates of failure, and how those definitions were monkeyed with.
[01:14:39] <wesolows> All to reach, as sommerfeld points out, a figure that management liked.
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[01:14:50] <lucky_luck> hi everyone
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[01:15:10] *** ChanServ sets mode: +o nrubsig
[01:15:13] <nrubsig> flash crash
[01:15:19] <nrubsig> (again)
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[01:15:50] <elektronkind> hmm
[01:16:12] <elektronkind> anyone ever see awk "Division by zero" errors when processing a jumpstart's rules file?
[01:16:14] <lucky_luck> How can I configure grub to load GNU/Linux? I-ve solaris on (hd0,2) and GNU/Linux on (hd0,2)
[01:16:37] <flyingparchment> lucky_luck: use solaris's grub and copy the linux stanza from your link grub.conf
[01:16:47] <flyingparchment> lucky_luck: must be done that way because linux grub can't load solaris (no UFS)
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[01:17:35] <lucky_luck> is swap in (hd0,3)and ext3 in (hd0,4)
[01:18:01] <kjetilho> elektronkind: yes, they happen with EFI labels on disks
[01:18:18] <kjetilho> they're harmless
[01:18:45] <lucky_luck> I'm now in /boot/grub/menu.list......... but I don't know how to do it.... is the same that linux grub?
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[01:19:33] <sfire||mouse> anyone played with having linux mount a solaris 10 nfs share?
[01:19:34] <sfire||mouse> mount: wmg-pso-prod-media01:/zpool1/pso/storage failed, reason given by server: Permission denied
[01:20:49] <sickness> oh this saves the day http://prefetch.net/blog/index.php/2006/07/29/building-perl-modules-for-solaris/
[01:21:25] <flyingparchment> you know, i really hate how when you build a binary with perl Makefile.PLs, it installs the binary to /usr/perl5 by default
[01:21:47] <elektronkind>  /path/to/preferred/perl Makefile.PL
[01:21:48] <elektronkind> :)
[01:22:13] <elektronkind> or change the module install dir defaults
[01:22:34] <FireflyST> yay, my hopefully opensolaris-compatible laptop is on its way
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[01:23:31] <leal> hello all..
[01:23:34] <elektronkind> FireflyST: you didn't see the notice? Solaris de-supported laptops
[01:24:05] <FireflyST> what?
[01:24:12] <FireflyST> tell me you're pulling my leg
[01:24:30] <wesolows> no, only machines with fixed locations are supported now
[01:24:42] <wesolows> any machine that weighs less than 5kg is no longer supported
[01:24:55] <leal> how can i translate the "hex" instruction in dtrace output (like "function_name:28c") to the "real" line of code? there is a way to do that?
[01:25:02] <elektronkind> and trackpads and nubbies are right out.
[01:25:17] <elektronkind> in fact, they're blacklisted in the USB HID driver
[01:25:20] <leal> I mean, what the real purpose of that information for debug?
[01:25:44] <wesolows> leal: You mean an address (function name + offset) to an instruction?  dis(1) or mdb(1) ::dis
[01:25:46] <movement> leal: you can look up the disasm and translate it back "by hand"
[01:26:23] <leal> ok, ok... let's try again.. :)
[01:26:39] <leal> dis or mdb?
[01:26:48] <leal> i will look at the manual pages... thanks!
[01:26:51] <elektronkind> mdb can do dis
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[01:26:58] <elektronkind> <address>::dis
[01:27:01] <g4lt-mordant> wesolows, so that means that MY laptop is still supporteed? ;P
[01:27:02] <FireflyST> I wish my laptop weighed more
[01:27:03] <wesolows> echo name+off::dis | mdb program
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[01:27:22] <FireflyST> I hate super-light laptops that feel like they're made of paper
[01:27:32] <leal> wesolows: thanks!
[01:27:52] <elektronkind> FireflyST: take out the CD drive and glue some lead shot in there. you might be able to trick the solaris bootloader
[01:28:00] <wesolows> the SF subway system now is filled with ads for some ruggedised laptop company;s products
[01:28:14] <wesolows> but the ads are clearly ineffective, as I've forgotten the name already
[01:28:37] <elektronkind> toughbooks ?
[01:28:46] <wesolows> no idea
[01:28:55] <wesolows> magnesium case, etc
[01:29:05] <elektronkind> sounds like it could be a twinhead product
[01:29:21] <g4lt-mordant> FireflyST, then you'd like mine.  6kg of lapbending pleasure
[01:29:26] <FireflyST> THE RUGGEDIZED HORSEBOOK! YOU'LL WANT TO GET YOUR 'MR HANDS' ON ONE RIGHT NOW!
[01:29:40] <elektronkind> mister hand?
[01:29:44] <wesolows> FireflyST: Be thankful that no one else here will get the reference, or I'd have to kick you.
[01:29:55] <richlowe> elektronkind: you really, really don't want to know.
[01:30:22] <FireflyST> just google 'mr hands', that is all.
[01:30:31] <wesolows> NSFW
[01:30:38] <FireflyST> phht
[01:30:40] <wesolows> also, bad idea generally
[01:30:47] <FireflyST> most articles just refer to it, no pictures
[01:30:48] <elektronkind> oh geez, wow, I remember what mr hands is now.
[01:31:05] <elektronkind> up until now, I seem to have blotted that from my memory
[01:31:09] <sickness> I think to have found a bug in the sshd of snv71...
[01:31:47] <sickness> it doesn't obey the "PasswordAuthentication no" directive
[01:31:59] <wesolows> sickness: Try PamKbdInteractiveAuthentication no
[01:32:05] <wesolows> I think that's what it is anyway
[01:32:15] <wesolows> though it may not honour that either - the man page says something about this
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[01:37:18] <lucky_luck> How can I configure grub to load GNU/Linux? I-ve solaris on (hd0,2) and GNU/Linux on (hd0,3)
[01:38:03] <jmcp> wesolows: the first hit I get with google says it all, really
[01:39:43] <elektronkind> stupid question: is there a good header file I should look at when trying to figure out how to fenagle network interface info from /dev/ip ?
[01:40:53] <jbk> elektronkind: what are you trying to do?
[01:41:53] <elektronkind> jbk: attempting to get interface names, address and netmask from within a driver without using the new netstack code... ie, in a way that'll work across all solaris 10 kernel revs.
[01:42:34] <elektronkind> right now the driver in question fools with Private interfaces that were done away with when netstack was integrated as a part of IP Instances
[01:42:47] <jbk> oh, so from within the kernel?
[01:42:52] <elektronkind> yah
[01:43:07] <elektronkind> yet another insane aspect of the afs client driver
[01:43:45] <elektronkind> I'm attempting to keep it binary compatible across past and current permutations of s10
[01:44:13] <elektronkind> an assuredly suckful task
[01:44:16] <nrubsig> !summon meem
[01:44:20] <lucky_luck> please, I need help to configure 'menu.lst' in Solaris to load debian..... It wolud like this ?
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[01:44:37] <lucky_luck> title  Linux 2.4.20-3-686
[01:44:53] <lucky_luck> (hda2)
[01:44:53] <lucky_luck>   kernel (hd0,1)/boot/vmlinuz-2.4.20-3-686 root=/dev/hda2 hdb=ide-scsi hdc=ide-scsi
[01:44:53] <lucky_luck>
[01:44:54] <lucky_luck> initrd (hd0,1)/boot/initrd.img-2.4.20-3-686
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[01:45:15] <lucky_luck> or I need to specify other options ?
[01:45:28] <Tempt> Morning all.
[01:45:39] <elektronkind> jbk: Its been suggested that poking /dev/ip is my only hope
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[01:46:30] <jbk> well are you wanting only plumbed interfaces?
[01:46:36] <elektronkind> yeah
[01:47:22] <elektronkind> only plumbed and up ones, really. not concerned with ones which aren't actively passing traffic
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[01:48:32] <sommerfeld> the pfhooks interface may get you what you want
[01:48:48] <richlowe> I don't think that's across the full spread of releases, either.
[01:48:51] <elektronkind> does that go back to FCS?
[01:49:53] <sommerfeld> wasn't in s10fcs but will be there going forward
[01:50:43] <elektronkind> that is probably acceptable. any bloke running a unpatched kernel from 2.5 years ago is asking for it ;)
[01:51:05] <jbk> or, could you pass the info to the driver via ioctl from a userland process?
[01:51:10] <jbk> 2.5?
[01:51:21] <jbk> places still have solaris 2.5.1 running :(
[01:51:39] <elektronkind> jbk: that's another option, yes. One I can resort to... it's how AFS handles the same thing on MacOS
[01:53:23] <elektronkind> I'll check out this pfhooks interface and field it to the other devs, see what they think.
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[01:55:21] <sommerfeld> <sys/hook.h> and <sys/neti.h>
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[02:02:27] <sickness> wesolows: GREAT! that made it :)))
[02:02:42] <sickness> wesolows: maybe it should be documented somewhere... maybe in some installation howto =)
[02:02:56] <sickness> oh
[02:03:03] <sickness> it put ssh into maintenance... :/
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[02:03:30] <sickness> /etc/ssh/sshd_config: line 162: Bad configuration option: PamKbdInteractiveAuthentication
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[02:07:25] <lucky_luck> How can I configure grub to load GNU/Linux? I-ve solaris on (hd0,2) and GNU/Linux on (hd0,3)
[02:10:19] <kaiwai> hmm, amd to open up their drivers
[02:10:32] <elektronkind> including ATI?
[02:11:06] <Tempt> I'm sure there will be some ATI action soon enough, given Sun's strategic relationship with AMD. Just need to be patient.
[02:11:09] <kaiwai> of course
[02:11:31] <kaiwai> http://lwn.net/Articles/248227/
[02:11:45] <Tempt> Frankly, since they don't have the speed, and they don't have the price, they're going to have to find some sort of attractive feature.
[02:11:57] <lucky_luck> thanks for your help
[02:12:52] <kaiwai> Tempt: true, and its own a skelton source, the 3d side still has to be written by the 'community'
[02:12:55] <wesolows> sickness: I said, read the man page!  You want KbdInteractiveAuthentication, but the man page also says it cannot be set to no.  Perhaps you need to file an RFE.
[02:13:35] <flyingparchment> couldn't you remove the appropriate pam module from pam.conf for sshd?
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[02:14:59] <wesolows> and use pam_deny instead?  maybe
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[02:22:06] <sickness> wesolows: heh, I don't know how, and now I also see that it's impossible to start apache2 with svcadm, it always gives error, funny thing is that if you use the method that SMF is supposed to use, /lib/svc/method/http-apache2 start, it works...
[02:22:33] <wesolows> that must be a different problem
[02:25:19] <sickness> yeah, unrelated...
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[02:28:32] <sickness> uhm, now it seems to work...
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[02:32:25] <kaiwai> I wonder if Sun is willing to ship Mono with OpenSolaris
[02:32:37] <kaiwai> so moonlight/silverlight is supported out of the box
[02:33:45] <jbk> why? is anyone actually using it?
[02:33:48] * kaiwai prays for Adobe to go bankrupt at the same time AMD does
[02:34:01] <kaiwai> jbk: people will eventually use it
[02:34:08] <jbk> so people hope
[02:34:33] <jbk> well certain people
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[02:35:37] <kaiwai> well, atleast it'll hopefully get adobe to get its shit together
[02:36:22] <jbk> i think it's a very dangerous proposition to encourage its adoption
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[02:37:45] <jbk> i've seen nothing that indicates M$ has changed their ways, so if anything, they'll wait for widespread adoption then try to lock all other platforms out
[02:37:57] <alanc> shipping Mono with Solaris has always been a political problem (.net clone vs. Java) in the past, but that wouldn't stop OpenSolaris from shipping it if someone wanted to do the work
[02:38:14] <kaiwai> *shrugs* vs. getting ass raped by Adobe or terrible IDE from Sun for JavaFX, its all bad
[02:40:56] <jbk> terrible ide?
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[02:41:20] <kaiwai> jbk: IDE for JavaFX development; overly complex and complicated
[02:41:46] <kaiwai> I'm sure its a dream if one has never used SM Visual Studio
[02:41:48] <kaiwai> *MS
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[02:47:24] <kjetilho> kaiwai: is Silverlight really more open than Flash?
[02:49:33] <kaiwai> not really, its like the option of being kneed in the groin or kicked in the groin; its going to hurt either way
[02:49:46] <kaiwai> VC1 is an openstandard
[02:49:52] <kaiwai> which is the video specification
[02:50:07] <kaiwai> but the rest IIRC is 'out of the goodness of MS own heart'
[02:50:35] <kaiwai> atleast though Mono/Moonlight is getting assistance from Microsoft rather than no assistance as witht he case of Gnash and Adobe
[02:58:39] <Tempt> "Gnash"
[03:00:26] <kaiwai> the GNU flash thingy
[03:00:38] <CIA-26> jg: 6281386 update_drv : -b option gives error message and exits
[03:05:06] <Tempt> Gnashing of teeth
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[03:07:11] <lucky_luck> hello
[03:07:51] <lucky_luck> how can I load linux from grub's 'menu.lst' ?
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[03:11:35] <nachox> evenin
[03:11:36] <nachox> g
[03:12:24] <jbk> hello
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[03:18:06] <kaiwai> good afternoon
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[03:22:20] <Gman> the new ipod touch demo was going so well until they mentioned starbucks :)
[03:22:55] <jbk> hey gman
[03:23:10] <Gman> jbk, hiya
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[03:25:29] <Gman> man, it has a display sleep...that's *nice*
[03:25:38] <flyingparchment> what's a display sleep?
[03:25:51] <Gman> flyingparchment, turns off the display while listening to music
[03:26:07] <flyingparchment> don't all mobile devices have that?
[03:26:23] <Gman> mine doesn't
[03:28:12] <Stric> sounds like one of the first things any vendor should put in.. and afaik has..
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[03:28:40] <nachox> Duckhorn includes network capping?
[03:29:10] <kjetilho> it's amazing how fixing silly shortcomings is hailed as a great advance by the Apple acolytes :-)
[03:30:14] <Stric> something that most of us takes for granted.. ;)
[03:30:30] <Stric> because not having it is just stupid :P
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[03:42:10] <g4lt-mordant> kaiwai, BTW, you're right WRT ATi.  they blew a lot of workstation sales IMO by not providing any decent drivers.  fuck them
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[03:44:50] <elektronkind> <nachox> Duckhorn includes network capping?
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[03:47:13] <nrubsig> alanc: ping!
[03:47:58] <alanc> pong
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[03:55:21] <lucky_luck> hello, how can I load debian form solari's grub ? how must I to change my 'menu.lst' ?
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[03:56:46] <sommerfeld> what have you tried so far?
[03:56:47] <alanc> shouldn't it be the same as from grub on Linux?   it's still grub
[03:57:05] <sommerfeld> two options come to mind: 1) copy menu.lst entry from debian into solaris menu.lst
[03:57:20] <sommerfeld> 2) use chainload frmo solaris menu.lst to load debian copy of grub
[03:58:59] <lucky_luck> well, I install debian, and then I install solaris
[03:59:06] <lucky_luck> i can-t see my debian's grub
[03:59:48] <sommerfeld> so try using chainload
[03:59:53] <lucky_luck> I want to know if the lines I need to add in grubs's solaris are the that un linux
[04:00:09] <lucky_luck> chainload yo u say ? i ty
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[04:02:12] <kjetilho> Gman: I wonder if the new iPod works without iTunes.  would be rather silly to have to buy a PC to sync it :-)
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[04:02:40] <lucky_luck> my experiencie says that if I edit wrong bad, my system don-t start
[04:02:47] <Gman> kjetilho, :)
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[04:03:35] <g4lt-mordant> yeah, they need to port itms to solaris ;P
[04:04:02] <kjetilho> also, Apple needs to make it easier to filter away DRM-ed music when searching
[04:04:38] <g4lt-mordant> well, yeah, but if they don't do the itms-solaris thing, the rest isn't happening either
[04:04:53] <g4lt-mordant> or if it does happen, I won't care
[04:05:12] <kjetilho> what do you mean by porting itms to Solaris?
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[04:05:30] <kjetilho> make it an actual web interface?
[04:05:53] <g4lt-mordant> itunes rather
[04:06:35] <kjetilho> they're supposed to offer most music without DRM now, so I don't see why they need to do that
[04:08:22] <g4lt-mordant> you know, this is WAAAY more explanation than a simple joke shoud require
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[04:08:38] <g4lt-mordant> perhaps you ought to see someone about that
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[04:09:15] <kjetilho> see someone?
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[04:20:16] <the-decider> well, the balloon went up.  sun vs. netapp finally hit /.
[04:21:29] <jbk> it'll be interesting to see how it spins
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[04:27:12] <g4lt-mordant> jbk, ITYM GETS spun
[04:29:39] <nachox> crap, it hit slashdot
[04:30:41] <nrubsig> grumpf
[04:30:44] <nrubsig> Gman: ping!
[04:30:49] <Gman> nrubsig, pong
[04:31:08] * nachox stabs nrubsig
[04:35:11] <the-decider> nachox: was that with a +3 dagger against ksh93 users?
[04:36:01] <the-decider> jbk: from the comments, it looks like they're just obsessing over the standard "patentz r bad, ok?" mantra
[04:36:02] * nrubsig hits nachox with a printout of http://opensolaris.pastebin.ca/raw/683236
[04:37:01] <nachox> nrubsig, WTF is that? and how is the one that programmed it still alive?
[04:37:11] <brendang> cleary ZFS has NetApp worried, and for good reason.
[04:37:24] <the-decider> oh wow -- the kids are defending Sun over this!  werd.
[04:37:33] <flyingparchment> brendang: or maybe netapp are just annoyed about sun's gratuitous patent lawsuits
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[04:38:17] <the-decider> its my take that there is this constant background "patent cold war" going on between all the big tech companies.
[04:38:20] <nrubsig> nachox: that's a representation of a HTML document loaded into a compound variable tree.
[04:38:41] <nrubsig> nachox: and a plain $ print -- ${xdoc} # printed this.
[04:38:42] <kaiwai> dear god - anyone see the republican debate on fox?
[04:38:49] <nachox> brendang, maybe sun did violate netapps patents?
[04:38:51] <the-decider> Every once and awhile someone hurls a rock over the 28th parallel, then someone has to shoot some mortars in response.
[04:39:08] <brendang> flyingparchment: Has Sun made gratuitous patent lawsuits?
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[04:39:21] <the-decider> but, even in the face of all of those billable hours, you don't see much change.
[04:39:34] <flyingparchment> well, i would like to say that all software patents are gratuitous, but i guess that's open to debate
[04:39:43] <the-decider> Even the big "eolas" lawsuit against M$ hasn't really affected the available features of their product.
[04:39:48] <flyingparchment> but according to the register at least, Sun started it
[04:39:51] <jbk> well the timing of the lawsuit is interesting
[04:40:16] <jbk> well that's netapps' claim, sun's is that netapp actually approached them over the initial 3 patents
[04:40:47] <jbk> at this point, it's he said/she said until evidence is presented
[04:41:13] <kaiwai> another suite is in progress?
[04:41:16] <jbk> to me, the timing at least makes me think netapp is being less than honest
[04:41:31] <jbk> i mean, it's not like zfs was released yesterday
[04:41:52] <jbk> and even the incident they claim started it was over 18 months ago
[04:41:58] <the-decider> in the end, a lot of lawyers will be able to pay for their 3rd vacation homes, some off the record "cross licensing" agreement will ensue, someone will have to make some token changes to some code, and life will go one.
[04:42:03] <brendang> nachox: it will be interesting to know the specifics. I feel it wouldn't be a case of the ZFS engineers copying NetApp code, since the ZFS engineers are smart and can figure this stuff out on their own.
[04:42:23] <jbk> if they were really that hurt and offended, it seems more likely they would have filed suit a while ago
[04:42:24] <the-decider> er... go on.
[04:42:35] <flyingparchment> did anything come of the patents IBM might have had on ARC?
[04:42:38] <sommerfeld> brendang: without commenting on any lawsuite that may or may not be in progress, patent infringement has nothing to do with copying code.
[04:42:53] <nachox> brendang, you dont patent code
[04:43:04] <the-decider> jbk: or, netapp could just see that Solaris+ZFS is competition, and they're just trying to insert some FUD into the marketplace so it doesn't take hold.
[04:43:07] <jbk> however, given the rumors flying around (as well as hints in various ARC cases) about sun's future plans
[04:43:10] <sommerfeld> you can infringe a patent without coping a line of the patent holder's code.
[04:43:16] <jbk> i could see where they are panicing
[04:43:34] <jbk> zfs has the possibility to _really_ hurt their business
[04:43:39] <elektronkind> copying code falls under copyright. patents - IP law. Licenses govern both.
[04:44:03] <kaiwai> jbk: is netapp suing Sun?
[04:44:06] <sommerfeld> flyingparchment: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB118729077210699960.html?mod=googlenews_wsj
[04:44:10] <nachox> aparently ZFS implemented WAFL or something like that, WAFL was pattented by netapp
[04:44:11] <jbk> kaiwai: yes
[04:44:19] <elektronkind> yep. see the front page of /.
[04:44:34] <kaiwai> jbk: bah, just send some people around for tough negotiations
[04:44:41] <kaiwai> give them an irish six pack
[04:44:54] <flyingparchment> sommerfeld: does the rest of the article mention it?  i don't have a wsj subscription
[04:44:54] <the-decider> like I said, nothing will change, only the lawyers will get rich :(
[04:45:26] <kaiwai> does Netapp make a profit?
[04:45:45] <kaiwai> wondering if it is a money grab
[04:46:12] <flyingparchment> netapp's stuff is $$$, i suspect they make a fair bit of profit
[04:46:24] <the-decider> superbly overpriced.
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[04:46:46] <the-decider> I mean, they make good stuff, but they shouldn't be charging that much for it.
[04:46:56] <sommerfeld> flyingparchment: well, the point being that IBM and Sun recently signed a deal to sell solaris on ibm hardware.
[04:47:11] <kaiwai> easy way to solve it, pick up the ceo and dangle him out the window from his ankle
[04:47:22] <the-decider> sommerfeld: that's because IBM needs a real UNIX to move their boxes ;)
[04:47:24] <flyingparchment> net income for 2007: $297M
[04:47:27] <sommerfeld> see prior comments on the patent cold war issues.  the only way to win is to not shoot first.
[04:47:53] <elektronkind> wow
[04:48:01] <jbk> too bad it's happening in lufkin
[04:48:02] <elektronkind> from the Sun response to the lawsuit:
[04:48:03] <elektronkind>  ZFS is the fastest growing storage virtualization technology in the marketplace, and NetApp's attempt to use patent litigation to inhibit the meteoric rise of open source technologies like ZFS is tantamount to being unhappy with gravity.
[04:48:16] <elektronkind> that last bit cracked me up
[04:48:42] <kaiwai> reminds me of 'thank you for smokeing' "this man is a genius, he could disprove gravity"
[04:48:47] <the-decider> should have followed on to say "Your CEO is as dumb as a bag of hammers for persuing this."
[04:49:22] <the-decider> "oh and by the way -- here's this patent we've been sitting on for key technolgies in NFS."
[04:49:40] <elektronkind> *dangle dangle*
[04:50:46] <kaiwai> awww, I think tying him to a chair, douse him in water and shocking him with a tazer would be heaps of fun
[04:51:06] <elektronkind> well, that would be mean. it certainly wouldn't be the high road ;)
[04:51:11] <jbk> it would be funny to see if sun countered with a request for an injunction on all of netapp's products
[04:51:52] <the-decider> I mean, there's some truth to ZFS *possibly* encroaching on those patents... that is, of course, those patents can't be invalidated in some way
[04:52:01] <kaiwai> elektronkind: awww, but its so much fun :-)
[04:52:12] <kaiwai> elektronkind: I'll be the head of 'Sun Torture department' :)
[04:54:15] <kaiwai> the new ipod looks spiffy, 160gig model
[04:54:34] <the-decider> best /. comment so far on the thread:
[04:54:36] <the-decider> Not true. JFS and XFS most likely infringe on NetApp patents as well. And Hans Reiser killed his wife.
[04:54:49] <sommerfeld> ow
[04:54:55] <Stric> jbk: like that company that's sueing Sony and wants the destruction of all PS3's out there
[04:55:25] <brendang> the-decider: LOL
[04:55:33] <jbk> the-decider: you know how they found out about that?
[04:55:57] <the-decider> sometimes something you read there is insightful.
[04:56:05] <jbk> he kept a log
[04:56:06] <kaiwai> tooo bad Hans didn't do the same to Adobe's management
[04:56:08] <jbk> *rimshot*
[04:56:22] <Stric> jbk: but just look at the benchmarks!
[04:57:54] <the-decider> Stric: it decapitates the competition.  Runs faster than a speeding bullet!
[04:59:24] <kaiwai> hmmm, XFS thats a dodgy wee lad
[05:00:03] <the-decider> I kinda liked XFS.  Its really too bad it didn't get a chance to develop more.
[05:00:13] <CIA-26> raf: 6599934 deadlock by atfork lock and user's mutex
[05:00:48] <kaiwai> the-decider: its very fragile due to the way it was designed based on what was the intended underlying hardware platform
[05:02:00] <the-decider> Certainly, there are filesystems way ahead of it ;)  But at the time and in the mindset it was made -- not bad.
[05:02:25] <kaiwai> true; true; and SGI had insane stringent hardware specifications too
[05:02:52] <the-decider> Though, I thought advfs on OSF/1 / DigitalUnix was rather nice too.
[05:03:59] <the-decider> kaiwai: I ran a bunch of stuff for awhile that was xfs/linux, and never could complain about the filesystem -- the underlying storage, yes, but the filesystem lived.
[05:04:20] <the-decider> It was probably not the most "stringent" hardware ;)
[05:04:39] <jbk> the only complaints i've heard about xfs were more related to distributions handling of 32/64-bit stuff
[05:04:55] <jbk> and the wonderful failure modes surrounding it
[05:05:14] <the-decider> though, I have no doubt that they would have layed out fs structures and such optimizing for their underlying storage architecture, and chip-specific stuff.
[05:05:45] <the-decider> jbk: xfs_repair recovers all (that is determined worthwhile to recover.)
[05:06:04] <the-decider> (by and advanced algorithm that may be at odds with your own)
[05:06:25] <jbk> but that doesn't help if you're getting non-sensical error messages when you run the commands because of 32/64bit mismatches :)
[05:06:28] <kjetilho> the-decider: problem with xfs_repair is that it requires a lot of RAM
[05:07:03] <kjetilho> the-decider: typically 1/256th of the filesystem size IIRC.
[05:07:09] <the-decider> jbk: well, if you were running it on actual SGI/Mips hardware you'd have been fine!!! :P
[05:07:19] <kjetilho> so you need 4 GiB to handle a terabyte ...
[05:07:30] <the-decider> kjetilho: time to buy more ramz! ;)
[05:07:41] <kjetilho> in any case, I thought SGI were still enhancing the cluster aspect of XFS?
[05:08:18] <Tempt> SGI aren't embracing anything other than desperate measures to try and hold steady on the share price these days.
[05:09:25] <bda> http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=472370 # HA
[05:09:45] <kaiwai> Tempt: Solaris on Itanium from SGI would be interesting though
[05:10:13] <kjetilho> aha, CXFS isn't Open Source
[05:10:22] <Tempt> No, it wouldn't.
[05:10:46] <jbk> bda: hahahaha
[05:10:55] <bda> srsly!
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[05:35:50] <flyingparchment> hmm, my onnv build is approaching 12 hours
[05:36:05] <sommerfeld> what sort of machine are you building on?
[05:36:19] <flyingparchment> under vmware on a 1.2GHz Athlon
[05:37:11] <sommerfeld> single-cpu?
[05:37:39] <jamesd> more ram may help...  just another couple hours and my  u2 will show it self to be faster
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[05:39:34] <sommerfeld> so, a full nightly seems to take on the order of 7-8 hours of cpu time on a 2.6GHz X4600.
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[05:39:50] <Tempt> jamesd: How long on your Ultra-2?
[05:40:01] <sommerfeld> (though with 16 cores cranking away in parallel it gets done in much less time)
[05:40:21] <jbk> i know there was some analysis done many years ago, has anyone looked at using dtrace on the build process?
[05:40:34] <jbk> just to see if there are any opportunities for optimization?
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[05:40:51] <jamesd> i think i did an olderversion of   probably  b16 or something in about 14 hours, but my u2 is not a normal config,   2x300mhz,  2GB ram and  lots of spindes,  10 IIRC.
[05:41:15] <Tempt> Sounds like a pretty standard Ultra-2.
[05:41:22] <sommerfeld> well, more disks than usual
[05:41:35] <jamesd> and dual  scsi channels.
[05:41:47] <Tempt> A not-normal Ultra-2 would have 2x400, 2Gb RAM and all the storage on SAN with a pair of dual path SBus HBAs
[05:42:11] <jamesd> Tempt, only in my dreams :-)
[05:42:11] <sommerfeld> jbk: yes, actually.  much makefile work is needed to expose more parallelism.
[05:42:34] <Tempt> jamesd: I wonder what performance would be like using iSCSI with 4 x gigabit ethernet trunked?
[05:43:41] <dlg> bah, storage over network
[05:43:50] <jamesd> Tempt, the u2  only can use  fibre  sbus gigabit, and they were first gen cards, even 454mhz 8MB l2 cache ultraII boxes couldn't get more than 700mbit  out of them at least in solaris 9 and previous i don't know anyone that tested them in  solaris 10.
[05:44:54] <Tempt> I've had 'em up and running on Solaris 10
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[05:45:10] <Tempt> Haven't benched them though, and I've only got two on the shelf so no chance of getting a 4 way trunk going
[05:45:20] <Tempt> And they were second gen cards
[05:45:26] <Tempt> the first gen stopped being supported after 2.6
[05:45:30] <jamesd> perhaps the fireengine code made it work better...
[05:46:05] <Tempt> I was happy just to have the improvement over 100mbit for cluster interconnect
[05:46:44] <jamesd> i have to install  100mbit qfe in my u2....  i want to test it out... but i can never find the time.
[05:46:59] <Tempt> Actually, Sun's global filesystem stuff seems a lot faster/more efficient than NFS, perhaps it can be ported to a non-cluster role
[05:47:18] <Tempt> Maybe I'll power up my U2 again some time.
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[05:51:04] <jamesd> i'm always impressed how much the old system can do...  i really wish they would of just re-made them a little faster with slightly cheaper parts instead of doing the u5/u10 the way they did.
[05:52:08] <Tempt> I don't think the U5/U10 was ever meant to be a replacement for the Ultra-2
[05:52:21] <Tempt> The Ultra-60 was a replacement for the Ultra-2
[05:52:55] <Tempt> To be honest, the Ultra-2 would have to be one of the meatiest, best workstations of all time.
[05:53:38] <jamesd> yeah.
[05:53:45] <Tempt> What was FCS date for Ultra-2?
[05:54:41] <jamesd> GA Date  	June 1996
[05:54:42] <jamesd> EOL 	Last Order: May 2000
[05:54:42] <jamesd> Last Shipment: August 2000
[05:55:27] <jamesd> and for a u5 just for comparison
[05:55:30] <jamesd> GA Date  	December 1997
[05:55:31] <jamesd> EOL 	Last Order: February 2002
[05:55:31] <jamesd> Last Shipment: May 2002
[05:56:09] <Tempt> So
[05:56:19] <Tempt> While the PeeCee world was getting excited about their Pentium-133
[05:56:26] <jamesd> i didn't relize they were so close.
[05:56:28] <Tempt> The Real world was using dual 400s
[05:57:20] <nachox> if you could pay them
[05:57:21] <kaiwai> U5/U10 were meant to be 'low cost' unix stations, a new segment altogether
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[06:00:08] <Tempt> Probably a market Sun could do with re-visiting.
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[06:01:32] <nachox> it is, u45?
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[06:02:40] <Tempt> Not quite the same as the grover
[06:03:04] <jamesd> i think the u2 or perhaps a e250 needs to be reborn,  use pci slots or perhaps pci-e  and either usparcII cpus or the ultraT1...  and use either  sata  or sca drives...
[06:03:46] <Tempt> I disagree
[06:03:51] <kaiwai> Tempt: revist - the low cost Unix desktop/workstation market?
[06:03:54] <Tempt> I think the Blade-1000/2000 needs to be reborn
[06:04:22] <Tempt> actually, if they just kept selling the Blade 2000/2500 it would have been fine
[06:04:34] <kaiwai> a sub $2000 Sparc laptop would be nice
[06:05:01] <Tempt> kaiwai: If you say that one more time, I'm going to add visiting you and belting you in the head with an RDI SPARCbook to my NZ itinery
[06:05:30] <kaiwai> actually said a sub $1000 the last time :)
[06:05:46] <nachox> i'm safe i can say whatever i want you wont dare coming here :)
[06:05:49] <jamesd> Tempt, yes those are nice too,  i wonder how cheap sun could do a ultraII clone... no more of this  128k l2 cache  usparc chips...
[06:06:36] <Tempt> You mean release a Blade-150 style workstation that takes the same UltraSPARC II modules they've probably got mountains of.
[06:06:37] <kaiwai> Tempt: you won't want to visit me; I'm blasting me neighbours out with Grinderman :P
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[06:07:59] <jamesd> Tempt, possibly, but i would prefer  sata drives or at least scsi...   even if they are just fast/wide....    they are better than the ide  stuff they shipped.
[06:10:23] <Tempt> SATA drives these days, keep costs down
[06:12:07] <g4lt-mordant> GROVER MUST RIDE AGAIN
[06:12:15] <g4lt-mordant> call it Elmo FTW
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[06:13:35] <kaiwai> embedded graphics from nvidia
[06:16:16] <jamesd> just keep the 16 memory slots....  let it accept upto 4GB dimms,  drool now that is a  workstation...
[06:16:57] <Tempt> I want a workstation
[06:17:02] <Tempt> with dual US-IV+ processors
[06:17:04] <Tempt> 256Gb of RAM
[06:17:07] <Tempt> 8 FCAL drives
[06:17:18] <Tempt> 4 PCI-X slots
[06:17:22] <Tempt> 4 PCI-E slots
[06:17:25] <nachox> that is a workstation?!
[06:17:29] <jamesd> Tempt, didn't they call that an m9000?
[06:17:43] * Tempt grins
[06:17:44] <dlg> pfft, fcal
[06:17:45] <dlg> sas pls
[06:18:02] <Tempt> Okay, 16 SAS drives (the little 2.5"s are smaller, gimmeh twice the count)
[06:18:24] <rootard> Anyone have serious problems with zfs import? I can't import two pools created on Sol10. One makes an OSOL box die as well as a Sol10 box.
[06:18:25] <kaiwai> all for $29.95 - and first 500 callers get a free steak knife set signed by Johnnathon
[06:18:32] <Tempt> Well, Dual US-IV+ in a workstation would be nice
[06:18:42] <rootard> The other complains of zil difficulty and reports an IO error.
[06:18:44] <Tempt> Perhaps not needing 256Gb of RAM; 16 would be alright
[06:19:06] <jamesd> Tempt, that was called a  v490
[06:20:27] <Tempt> Yes, but I'd like it in a similar chassis to Blade-1000
[06:20:33] <Tempt> and only need 1 module, not 2
[06:20:51] <Tempt> Sort of like the "290" that never happened.
[06:20:57] <Tempt> Which is odd, I always liked the 280Rs.
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[06:21:45] <pauliukas_> Who wouldn't want that workstation...
[06:22:00] <kaiwai> pauliukas_: depends on the price
[06:22:03] <pauliukas_> Although, a Sun server would be useful now.
[06:22:15] <flyingparchment> Tempt: could it run Ubuntu?
[06:22:16] <pauliukas_> I have no place in my cabinet for a workstation :-P
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[06:22:55] <nachox> flyingparchment, hmm, no, ubuntu only supports t1/t2 procs
[06:23:07] <Tempt> flyingparchment: It can after I shove it up your arse.
[06:23:24] <dlg> haha
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[06:23:57] <Tempt> I think we all ask too much sometimes though
[06:24:12] <nachox> Tempt, think it'll fit?
[06:24:17] <Tempt> I mean, WickedWicky is running a single CPU SS20 and finding it useful. Perhaps we need to better utilize our existing investments
[06:24:19] <jamesd> oh well off to bed to dream of my rock workstation,,  8x cores and  8 threads per core,  8GB of ram and  8x sata drives.... nvidia video 256MB of vram and dual  pci-e 16x slots, and 4x pci-e slots.
[06:24:29] <Tempt> nachox: Anything will fit, given enough force.
[06:24:30] <jbk> hmm project etude looks interesting
[06:24:34] <pauliukas_> haha
[06:24:43] <jbk> i wonder if that'll get them to finally eol solaris 8
[06:25:04] <Tempt> Hey, an 880 is a workstation, that's good enough for me at the moment.
[06:25:36] <nachox> jamesd, all but the nvidia card might happen :P
[06:28:09] <sommerfeld> jbk: solaris release eol's are time based
[06:28:50] <jbk> but i seem to recall that they keep pushing back the eol date for solaris 8
[06:28:57] <jbk> or rather it should have already happened by now
[06:29:04] <jbk> but could be thinking of something else
[06:29:13] <flyingparchment> what is project etude?
[06:29:31] <rootard> anyone know of a zpool recovery tool?
[06:29:44] <jbk> http://blogs.sun.com/dp/entry/project_etude_revealed
[06:30:42] <flyingparchment> i thought the brandz people said running previous solaris released was unfeasible
[06:32:09] <jbk> perhaps they found a workaround
[06:32:26] <jmcp> it wasn't unfeasible, just not supported
[06:32:59] <jbk> though that appears to soon no longer be the case
[06:33:10] <sommerfeld> they looked again :-)
[06:33:44] <sommerfeld> jbk: so, EOL/last ship date and EOSL/end of support are two different dates
[06:33:51] <sommerfeld> typically EOSL is EOL+5 years
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[06:35:21] <sommerfeld> my understanding is that etude is intended to allow solaris 8 to run until it reaches EOSL
[06:36:07] <flyingparchment> i guess they implemented the S8 kernel interface and froze it.. iirc the libc/kernel incompatibility between patches was the quoted reason it was hard to do
[06:37:13] <sommerfeld> like brandz support for a subset of the linux kernel interface, etude implements a subset of the S8 kernel interface.
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[06:37:22] <sommerfeld> a large enough subset ot be interesting, but it's a subset.
[06:39:02] <Tempt> Of course, if your applications run on 8 they *should* run fine on 10
[06:39:16] <jbk> yeah, but when you have less-than-clueful management
[06:39:24] <jbk> upgrading is viewed as 'too risky'
[06:39:32] <jbk> or you get the vendor 'supported version' issue
[06:39:49] <jbk> pissed me off to no end at my old job :)
[06:39:59] <sommerfeld> or the vendor wants to charge $LARGE for the version that is supported on s10
[06:40:48] <jbk> because we had a _lot_ of hardware that was or was soon to be EOLed
[06:41:00] <jbk> as well as a bunch of versions of stuff that was
[06:41:17] <jbk> yet we were on the hook for providing the same level of support regardless
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[06:42:23] <WickedWicky> morning
[06:42:44] <jbk> err versions of software
[06:42:55] <kaiwai> good morning WickedWicky
[06:43:15] <WickedWicky> hey :D
[06:45:07] <kaiwai> hmm
[06:45:09] <kaiwai> thats interesting
[06:45:29] <WickedWicky> hmm?
[06:45:44] <kaiwai> my wireless disconnected by I remained connected to the irc server
[06:46:00] <sommerfeld> feature, not bug.  tcp connections survive momentary link outage
[06:46:11] <sommerfeld> if you come back on the same ip address you're all set
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[06:46:58] <kaiwai> neat, isn't that spiffy
[06:48:05] <sommerfeld> in the original internet architecture, connection state lives only at the endpoints
[06:48:13] <sommerfeld> firewalls and NATs screw this up
[06:48:34] <infidel> on blastwave.org i wanted to install amarok but it looks like it's installing all of kde as well
[06:48:45] <WickedWicky> kaiwai: it is especialy nifty when you're in a bus or train with UMTS, and you enter a region where there is poor or no coverage :D
[06:49:05] <sommerfeld> like, say, a tunnel
[06:49:17] <WickedWicky> infidel: it installs all dependencies, so that means, kde-libs kde-sound, yada
[06:49:20] <WickedWicky> sommerfeld: that
[06:49:37] <WickedWicky> or a protected area where they cant plant antennas
[06:49:37] <infidel> WickedWicky, ok
[06:49:40] <WickedWicky> there is one near here
[06:49:49] <kaiwai> WickedWicky: yeah, I've got a wireless router, it occasionally drops out, but so far this Linksys router has done a pretty good job
[06:49:56] <WickedWicky> it's a protected wild life forrest/nature thingy
[06:50:00] <kaiwai> who's install kde?
[06:50:15] <WickedWicky> kaiwai: blastwave when you pkg-get amarok
[06:50:26] <WickedWicky> it installs all dependencies for amarok
[06:50:31] <kaiwai> hmm, thats quite out of date
[06:50:40] <sommerfeld> wickedwicky: just need antennas disguised as trees :-)
[06:50:54] <WickedWicky> well, when you compile amarok against kde-libs it'd be nice to have the kde-libs. Just my opinion :P
[06:50:54] <nachox> kaiwai, what linksys is that?
[06:51:03] <WickedWicky> sommerfeld: we opted for that:P
[06:51:32] <kaiwai> niachox: linksys router, WAG54G v3.0
[06:51:33] <infidel> WickedWicky, yeah but what does samba have to do with it?
[06:51:36] <kaiwai> the one running linux
[06:51:51] <WickedWicky> samba is probably a dependency of one of your dependencies
[06:52:00] <infidel> lol yeah
[06:52:04] <WickedWicky> if amarok is compiled against kde-libs and kde-libs is compiled against samba
[06:52:07] <infidel> probably
[06:52:16] <flyingparchment> infidel: did it install openldap too?
[06:52:21] <WickedWicky> or another library against samba for that matter
[06:52:22] <infidel> yeah
[06:52:27] <nachox> kaiwai, ohh, i have a WRT54G, i'm not that happy with it
[06:52:40] <infidel> flyingparchment, yeah
[06:52:41] <kaiwai> oh, whats wrong with your one?
[06:52:44] <flyingparchment> blastwave should learn how to split into binary and library packages
[06:52:49] <WickedWicky> I hate this about php for example. I just want php with mysql support
[06:52:51] <flyingparchment> it'd make the dependency situation a fair bit less stupid
[06:53:02] <WickedWicky> and i get a whole bunch of other stuff with it, so I just compile my own php
[06:53:07] <sommerfeld> (though sometimes they don't quite get it right.  there's an odd looking redwood-tree-like antenna along a parkway north of New York City that's twice as tall as the surrounding forest...)
[06:53:23] <WickedWicky> sommerfeld: HAHA
[06:53:26] <infidel> flyingparchment, will i have all of kde installed?
[06:53:29] <nachox> kaiwai, the windriver os that came with it was crappy as hell, a simple nmap crashed it
[06:53:32] <kaiwai> does anyone have pkgbuild sfe binaries available for download? I can never get the damn thing compiled for some reason
[06:53:38] <flyingparchment> infidel: i would assume it only installs kdelibs, and maybe kdebase.  but who knows
[06:53:46] <kaiwai> nachox: ah, the one I have runs Linux
[06:53:53] <infidel> flyingparchment, ok thanks
[06:54:03] <nachox> kaiwai, i flashed it with linux and it improved a bit but i still have to reboot it every once in a while when it stales
[06:54:09] <WickedWicky> well, we suffer the problem the other way around. One of our datacenters is built in the 60s or so. With a certain hight for the antennas on the roof, keeping the big buildings around it in mind
[06:54:27] <kaiwai> nachox: ah, most of my problems relate to the crap isp I have
[06:54:29] <WickedWicky> now Holiday Inn and Novotell are building hotels in the area which are 20 meters higher than our antennas :P
[06:54:38] <WickedWicky> so we have to put the antennas higher
[06:54:44] <sommerfeld> never mind that it's the wrong coast for redwoods
[06:54:53] <WickedWicky> LOL
[06:55:08] <WickedWicky> well hey, it's unique, gotta say that
[06:55:32] <kaiwai> hmm, antennas for what?
[06:55:40] <kaiwai> you've got a small wireless network going?
[06:55:54] <WickedWicky> no, I work for a telco
[06:56:11] <WickedWicky> with datacenter I mean the datacenter holding machines I cant pay for :P
[06:56:42] <WickedWicky> the antennas are for the cellular network plus analog radio
[06:56:51] <WickedWicky> and some sattelite dishes
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[06:57:00] <kaiwai> ah, anyway off to work
[06:57:03] <kaiwai> seee ya
[06:57:08] <WickedWicky> be good
[06:57:08] <Ben_Cs> hello
[06:57:49] <WickedWicky> infidel: I feel your pain though. You ask for a small thing, and you end up having installed lots of things
[06:58:13] <Ben_Cs> i would like to try opensolaris, but the only versions of OS i see on the site are of developer versions, and other opensolaris based distros. how about a desktop opensolaris?
[06:58:18] <WickedWicky> but hey, it could be worse... I heard the Vista SP1 will be 900MB
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[06:58:43] <WickedWicky> Ben_Cs: opensolaris comes with a desktop, based on gnome, called JDS
[06:58:44] <flyingparchment> Windows doesn't fit on a CD anymore?
[06:58:53] <WickedWicky> flyingparchment: the service pack surely wont
[06:58:59] <WickedWicky> vista doesnt either I think
[06:59:06] <flyingparchment> Ben_Cs: you probably want SXCE (community edition).  that includes JDS, as WickedWicky said
[06:59:17] <flyingparchment> DE has JDS too, but it's silly
[07:00:09] <infidel> ouch
[07:00:17] <Ben_Cs> i'm not familiar to solaris versions so you gotta speak to me in plain english (and not shorts for names)
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[07:01:14] <Jondice> anyone know of a good shared web hosting service that uses solaris?
[07:01:24] <Jondice> or at least has the option
[07:01:40] <Gman> joyent? :)
[07:01:50] <Jondice> ah, that does sound familiar
[07:02:07] <Ben_Cs> what's the difference between JDS and SXCE if both run gnome?
[07:02:18] <Gman> there's none
[07:02:33] <Gman> unless you mean jds = linux distribution
[07:02:54] <Gman> (separate product based on suse linux, since dead)
[07:03:12] <flyingparchment> Ben_Cs: JDS is Sun's version of GNOME.  SXCE is an operating system.
[07:03:33] <Ben_Cs> how's packaging working on solaris? is there a system for it, or you have to compile everything like in gentoo?
[07:04:01] <Ben_Cs> flyingparchment: so SXCE is the opensolaris version for desktops?
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[07:04:24] <flyingparchment> it's not "for desktops" specifically.  it's sun's distribution of opensolaris, and is what will become solaris 11
[07:05:52] <Ben_Cs> well, how about the packaging question then?
[07:07:37] <Ben_Cs> and another one: how about opensolaris vs. bsd?
[07:08:15] <sommerfeld> WickedWicky: ah, photo of it at http://www.flickr.com/photos/52074377@N00/1287775541/
[07:08:18] <rootard> I'm having some _serious_ zfs issues. Does anyone know someone to talk to directly?
[07:08:58] <e^ipi> hey all
[07:08:59] <sommerfeld> rootard: best bet is to describe your symptoms in a message to zfs-discuss.
[07:09:17] <rootard> sommerfeld: thanks, I'll try it.
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[07:25:34] <infidel> how can i tell if i have 3d working on my video card?
[07:27:42] <palowoda> Nvidia card?
[07:28:13] <infidel> intel
[07:28:59] <palowoda> I believe /usr/X11/demo/glxgears is compiled wtih GL libs.  Try running it.
[07:29:08] <infidel> ok
[07:30:18] <e^ipi> it'll work regardless
[07:30:36] <palowoda> ugh mesa must be in there.
[07:30:41] <e^ipi> it might just fall back to software rendering
[07:30:44] <infidel> 6098 frames in 5.0 seconds = 1219.585 FPS
[07:30:55] <e^ipi> infidel: meaningless..
[07:31:06] <rootard> Make the window really big...
[07:31:18] <infidel> ok
[07:31:31] <rootard> if it keeps the a similar frame rate then 3d acceleration is probably working.
[07:31:44] <e^ipi> /usr/X11/bin/glxinfo | ggrep -i "dri"
[07:32:26] * rootard is slurring type without any help
[07:32:27] <infidel> 923 frames in 5.0 seconds = 184.465 FPS
[07:32:27] <infidel> 923 frames in 5.0 seconds = 184.412 FPS
[07:33:13] <infidel> OpenGL renderer string: Mesa DRI Intel(R) 965G 4.1.3002
[07:33:14] <palowoda> Sound more like software 3d.
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[07:39:34] <sahafeez> so i take it that everyone has already had the netapp v. sun talk and i missed it
[07:40:19] <jmcp> yeah
[07:40:45] <sahafeez> ah, well. i like netapp as a product but after working there i can say as a company they lack..
[07:41:43] <jmcp> I'm not commenting on anything
[07:42:04] <jmcp> not that I know anything :)
[07:42:42] <palowoda> I like watching a shark feeding frenzy.
[07:43:27] <palowoda> Somebody is going to come out bloody.
[07:43:42] <sahafeez> i have been talking to a friend that is a partner in a fund about how i think sun is unvalued
[07:44:14] <jmcp> unvalued, or under valued?
[07:44:37] <sahafeez> hum, sorry long day. under valued
[07:44:53] <jmcp> phew
[07:44:54] <jmcp> :)
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[07:47:07] <trochej> Coffee
[07:47:16] <e^ipi> eeffoc
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[07:55:35] <trochej> hmmmm
[07:55:38] <trochej> Network Appliance Inc. today announced that it has filed a patent infringement lawsuit against Sun Microsystems Inc. seeking unspecified compensatory damages and an injunction that would prohibit Sun from developing or distributing products based on its ZFS file system technology.
[07:55:53] <palowoda> yeah yeah we heard about it.
[07:55:54] <sahafeez> yah. [10:39pm] sahafeez: so i take it that everyone has already had the netapp v. sun talk and i missed it
[07:55:54] <sahafeez> [10:40pm] jmcp: yeah
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[07:57:42] <trochej> yeah
[07:57:45] <trochej> I just woke up
[07:57:54] <trochej> Can anyone make a pastebin of most important point made? :)
[07:57:57] <palowoda> I often wondered why a certain court in east Texas always gets tha patent cases.
[07:58:29] <jmcp> because they're easy
[07:58:47] <steleman> palowoda: that's bush country
[07:58:49] <palowoda> All they have out there is cow pies.
[07:58:50] <jmcp> it's like registering a company in Delaware
[07:58:52] <sahafeez> because they are favorable to that type of case.
[07:59:27] <trochej> hm
[08:00:07] <trochej> I live outside of US, I'm not familiar with those... details...
[08:02:26] <palowoda> Yeah two CA companies going to Texas for justice.
[08:02:51] <steleman> swift justice
[08:03:06] <palowoda> Maybe both will lose.
[08:03:56] <sahafeez> the usa was founded on the idea of states rights with a week federal government. now we have forgotten that however the states still set laws about a number of things. so it can be a good idea to go to court in a state or jurisdiction where the laws favor your case
[08:05:26] <steleman> that's the weirdest part. since when does a federal court in texas have jurisdiction in CA
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[08:08:24] <sahafeez> patent law is national
[08:10:31] <palowoda> What about the other 49 states. :)
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[08:11:22] <sahafeez> what do you mean?
[08:11:58] <sahafeez> the whole thing is silly and broken. do not try to figure it out. i live here and i cannot
[08:13:03] <palowoda> I know it's like taking all the McDonalds and locating them in Texas.  Although an idea like that I wouldn't consider broken.
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[08:14:23] <rootard> No, it's like taking an argument about zfs vs ufs into a kindergarten and asking the kids who is right.
[08:14:54] <rootard> Of course, we all know that z is cooler than u, but to kids that haven't learned z yet...
[08:15:18] <sahafeez> well the sun guys asked for it. they talked about walf in their papers and then sun goes and sues netapp. sorry. not 2 smart.
[08:17:17] <rootard> Yeah, maybe it started with Sun. Maybe it started with something else and there are already enough fingers pointed at the other company.
[08:17:43] <sahafeez> they will settle.
[08:18:00] <palowoda> I vote for a blood bath.
[08:18:09] <sahafeez> there will be a cross license use agreement
[08:18:16] <rootard> Sun will buy NetApp. :-D
[08:18:31] <sahafeez> netapp is not a good fit for sun
[08:18:53] <sahafeez> apple should buy sun and cisco should buy netapp
[08:18:56] <Tempt> Neither was StorageTek.
[08:19:03] <sahafeez> yes it was.
[08:19:04] <Tempt> hoho, Apple buying Sun.
[08:19:07] <Tempt> That's funny.
[08:19:30] <WickedWicky> netapp doesnt exist anymore
[08:19:35] <WickedWicky> they got bought by blue coat
[08:20:54] <sahafeez> they bought the netcache part.
[08:21:11] <WickedWicky> yea and killed half of it
[08:21:24] <WickedWicky> no more nntp licences forr starters :s
[08:21:58] <sahafeez> and that matter why
[08:22:12] <WickedWicky> that we used them? :P
[08:22:31] <sahafeez> easynews or such?
[08:22:40] <WickedWicky> no, in housing news
[08:22:57] <WickedWicky> and we're redesigning the nnt infrastructure
[08:23:20] <WickedWicky> nntp that is
[08:23:28] <WickedWicky> we have lots of netapps where I work
[08:23:29] <sahafeez> what i was saying is do you work for one of the big por...ah, usenet companies
[08:23:42] <WickedWicky> no
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[08:37:18] <palowoda> Tempt: Actually StorageTek wasn't that bad of a purchase compared to Cobalt.
[08:37:46] <WickedWicky> haha
[08:37:59] <Gman> some of the cobalt people that came over were pretty darn smart, so it wasn't that bad ;)
[08:38:18] <palowoda> 2Billion Gman.
[08:38:52] <WickedWicky> yea.. there are days I dont have that on my bank account
[08:39:02] <Gman> heh
[08:39:08] <Gman> but...it's only money!
[08:39:17] <WickedWicky> a lot of only money
[08:39:30] <sahafeez> hum worst buy every aol and tw
[08:39:34] <palowoda> Cobalt was one of the biggest hits on the stock value.
[08:39:38] <sahafeez> and nortel and alteon
[08:44:17] <jimgris> yah, well Cobalt was way back in 2000, right? Long time ago. Right around the tech crash time period.
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[08:45:10] <WickedWicky> talking about crash time, the ISP I use at home had an four hour outage yesterday due to power loss
[08:45:13] <WickedWicky> that gotta hurt
[08:45:25] <palowoda> jimgris: Don't go down the line of good company purchases.  It hasn't be a successful strategy in Sun stock value.
[08:45:30] <sahafeez> hum, time to get out and do something..
[08:46:22] <palowoda> I'm all for investing in employee value.
[08:46:43] <trochej> Yup. Employ me and then invest :)
[08:46:55] <palowoda> you drink too much coffee.
[08:47:06] <trochej> Nah, just two barrels a day
[08:47:13] <trochej> But I dont eat
[08:47:30] <palowoda> That is a problem with you polish people. :)
[08:47:36] <trochej> And while I work I produce a side effect translating documentation with my legs
[08:48:11] <trochej> I can also rock in a chair, so when hooked to a proper device, I will produce power for my desktop needs
[08:48:27] <e^ipi> umm
[08:48:27] <e^ipi> slavery is illegal palowoda ...
[08:48:50] <Tempt> NNTP is easy.
[08:49:04] <Tempt> Using NetApp for NNTP is a cop-out
[08:49:05] <trochej> Also, I will work 17 hours a day and die young, so that you dont even need to bother with social and health care
[08:49:11] 
[08:49:41] <palowoda> I'll go with you on die young.  The only way to go. :)
[08:49:46] <trochej> :)
[08:49:56] <trochej> Die young, leave attractive body :)
[08:50:02] <WickedWicky> Tempt: it is easy but we could have safed up on iron if we'd be able to implement the nntp licences on our netapps
[08:50:33] <WickedWicky> iron == money == potential raise for patrick, in this case personified by an horrible cunt, me
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[08:50:55] <WickedWicky> (please tell me you know Snatch)
[08:51:08] <palowoda> The movie?
[08:51:12] <Tempt> Watch it, or I'll feed you to the piggies.
[08:51:13] <WickedWicky> yes
[08:51:17] <WickedWicky> lol! you do!
[08:51:24] <palowoda> Damn that was a good flick.
[08:51:27] <WickedWicky> well, I've seen your vicious piggy eating sun keyboards
[08:51:30] * WickedWicky is in fear
[08:51:37] <WickedWicky> In the quiet words of the virgin Mary...
[08:51:44] <Tempt> Hey, and I don't like your password recovery concept.
[08:52:00] <WickedWicky> neither did I, but it saved my coworkers ass yesterday
[08:52:10] <WickedWicky> safed
[08:52:11] <Tempt> Yes, but it's a very long way around it
[08:52:16] <Tempt> and fraught with pitfalls and hazards.
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[08:52:52] <jdavis_> does build 69 work well under a linux host using kvm/qemu?
[08:52:53] <WickedWicky> I'm open for better sugestions :D
[08:53:11] <Tempt> WickedWicky: Well, you should be able to figure a better way out for yourself given this information:
[08:53:28] <palowoda> build 69 under qemu?  What a waste.
[08:53:28] <Tempt> DiskSuite doesn't read from both spindles concurrently in single user mode.
[08:53:39] 
[08:53:51] <Tempt> So if you're doing a boot -s after doing your password reset, you can get in and resync the root fs
[08:54:01] <jdavis_> palowoda: well, you know how it is, experiment with the machines you've got.
[08:54:03] <Tempt> (without fiddling /etc/system!)
[08:54:14] <jdavis_> trochej: what about under kvm?
[08:54:27] <palowoda> jdavis_: Buy more hardware to experiment with.
[08:54:30] <WickedWicky> yes but that implies I can access the metadevices upon resetting the password
[08:54:43] 
[08:55:11] <Tempt> boot from media; chroot and change the passwd; boot -s; enter the new root passwd; detach the submirror; boot; re-attach the submirror
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[08:56:25] <trochej> jdavis_: Also, I just installed sxce about nine months ago as a host system and never got back to linux
[08:56:26] <WickedWicky> I'm gonna tey this on a lab server :D
[08:56:31] <WickedWicky> cheers
[08:56:51] <WickedWicky> real problem was of course ppl installing machines without remembering/documenting the password
[08:56:55] <WickedWicky> that's just stupid
[08:57:43] <Tempt> Alright. Fix your article and re-publish when you've labbed it
[08:57:50] <WickedWicky> will do :D
[08:57:55] <Tempt> Was it Solaris 10?
[08:58:00] <WickedWicky> 8 :P
[08:58:03] <Tempt> haha
[08:58:07] <Tempt> No telnet bug to 'sploit then
[08:58:24] <jdavis_> trochej: on what kind of hardware? is it a server or workstation?
[08:59:13] <WickedWicky> the most annoying part was the political mess we got in before recovering the password
[08:59:19] <Tempt> Haha.
[08:59:22] <Tempt> Indeed, that can be fun.
[08:59:41] <palowoda> How do you know when you have a server vs a workstation these days?
[08:59:55] <trede> when you have ECC ram or not etc.
[08:59:56] <sahafeez> hum. scsi
[08:59:59] <sahafeez> ecc
[09:00:01] <jdavis_> palowoda: if other people connect to it, it's a server.
[09:00:09] <palowoda> Tempt rates it as the power bill. :)
[09:01:13] <jdavis_> palowoda: I was trying to assess whether he was dealing with desktop issues like graphics cards and other stuff that's unneccessary on a server and could cause compatibility problems.
[09:01:14] <palowoda> sahafeez: The scsi sence died long time ago.
[09:01:28] <sahafeez> not in real servers :)
[09:01:46] <palowoda> Real as in (TM)?
[09:01:56] <trochej> jdavis_: Laptop
[09:01:59] <jdavis_> palowoda: I have had problems with opensolaris on some hardware that linux runs on fine, for example, which would be less of a problem for many servers.
[09:02:25] <palowoda> jdavis_: over generalized.
[09:02:37] <trochej> palowoda: Untrue
[09:03:01] <trochej> palowoda: It is common that OS wont support SM card readers, sound cards (OSS wont help either), network cards
[09:03:04] <palowoda> Ok now we are lost in a sea of facts or fiction.
[09:03:26] <palowoda> OpenSolaris is OSS.
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[09:03:40] 
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[09:04:00] <trochej> palowoda: OpenSolarils is Open Sound System?
[09:04:05] 
[09:04:10] <trochej> How did they manage?
[09:04:16] <e^ipi> my workstation has ECC & fibrechannel drives
[09:04:16] <e^ipi> *shrug*
[09:04:27] <sahafeez> so does mine
[09:04:45] 
[09:04:50] <palowoda> I thought Open Sound System is part of OpenSolaris?
[09:05:02] <trochej> palowoda: Not in b69, as I believe
[09:05:17] <palowoda> I guess a matter of time.
[09:05:20] 
[09:05:32] 
[09:05:43] <trede> mine has a motherboard with a few cm2 of coal that smells bad =),  so i get i crash once a week or so.
[09:05:54] <trochej> trede: Wash it :)
[09:06:05] <trochej> Maybe if it stops to stink it will work nicely :)
[09:06:07] <trede> trochej: the coal is from burned components.
[09:06:13] <palowoda> I have too much beautiful music on opensolaris right now.  Didn't think about it. :)
[09:06:22] <trochej> trede: You have a mine on your board? :)
[09:06:27] <trochej> palowoda: :)
[09:06:32] <trede> trochej: hehe
[09:07:07] <WickedWicky> gotta go people, have fun
[09:07:15] 
[09:07:22] <trochej> WickedWicky: We always do
[09:07:24] <trochej> :)
[09:07:30] <WickedWicky> :D
[09:07:32] <trede> =)
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[09:07:52] <palowoda> I'm looking for something better than the Logitech 1000W amp on the Solaris box.
[09:08:04] 
[09:08:34] <palowoda> trochej: I'm expected to annoy my nieghbors.
[09:08:38] <trochej> And at home I get all the best music non stop from my daughter
[09:08:42] <trochej> palowoda: :)
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[09:14:25] <trochej> Fok
[09:15:16] <trochej> Hardware. I plugged a usb disc to a station and it lost usb keyboard
[09:15:17] <trochej> Sweet :)
[09:15:55] <palowoda> Which build?
[09:17:05] <trochej> S 10 u3
[09:17:29] 
[09:17:39] <palowoda> Really how do you know?
[09:17:42] <g4lt-mordant> type 7 keyboard?
[09:18:41] <palowoda> I always enjoy seeing which bug id's where fixed in opensolaris vs solaris.
[09:19:48] 
[09:19:51] <trochej> So...
[09:20:20] <richlowe> it isn't fixed in Nevada
[09:20:28] <richlowe> if it's the issue I'm thinking of (and g4lt seems to be, as well)
[09:20:29] <palowoda> yeah yeah yeah, must be a bug id somewhere.
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[09:22:00] <palowoda> richlowe: Which issue are you thinking about?
[09:22:25] <richlowe> exactly what trochej said, pretty much, though I've only seen it with the type7 keyboard.
[09:22:34] <richlowe> plug USB storage into it, and anything on the hub in the keyboard disappears.
[09:23:02] <palowoda> Hmm this type of problem been there forever?
[09:25:22] <palowoda> The only reason I'm asking is some sort of testing proceedure should have taken this into account????
[09:25:29] <trochej> richlowe: Can I find the type of keyboard somehow?
[09:25:40] <Tempt> e^ipi: ECC memory? FC drives? You bought a Blade, then?
[09:25:43] 
[09:26:45] <palowoda> trochej: What type of usb storage?
[09:27:51] <palowoda> One of the things I wish was there is an easy way to identify the bridge chip in the usb storage devices.
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[09:28:32] <trochej> One sec, I can give you extact HD symbol
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[09:31:13] <trochej> Hitachi, model: HTS541010G9SA00, Hitachi PN: 0A27470
[09:32:35] <trochej> :)
[09:33:13] <trochej> ok, reboot
[09:33:20] <trochej> I need to fetch a coffee
[09:33:35] <palowoda> trochej: I somehow doubt it related to the model of hard drive but to the usb controller chip and the combination of usb bridge chip in the usb hd device.  I have to find my usb keyboard to reproduce.
[09:33:38] <cmang> lol, netapp.  copy-on-write violates patents.  funnies
[09:34:03] <palowoda> Oh god a year an a half of netapp news.
[09:34:31] <cmang> indeed
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[09:34:44] <palowoda> I'm bored go find me some new news.
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[09:44:19] <trochej> :)
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[09:50:19] <trochej> wierd
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[09:51:35] <trochej> I have a usb disc that is recognised as c3t0d0, but zpool create on this device dives me "no such device"
[09:51:47] <trochej> format ignores this dist either
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[11:00:12] <LLcoolM> can someone paste the dvd md5 checksums from sxce?
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[11:00:16] <CIA-26> rk129064: 6542435 Fix for 6505607 didn't take into account SO_ALLZONES
[11:00:17] <LLcoolM> the website is down.
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[11:11:19] * dclarke falls in
[11:17:47] * trochej looks after dclarke
[11:17:50] <trochej> You allright
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[11:19:39] <dclarke> I'm okay
[11:19:49] <dclarke> having a lot of systems problems here
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[11:20:04] <dclarke> trying to do a systems upgrade just to handle S10 update 4
[11:20:24] <Berny> is there a way to query the disk type (manufacturer, model etc) from with solaris? (running snv, with 2 sata disks attached in a x2200m2)
[11:20:56] <dclarke> yes
[11:21:03] <dclarke> well .. sata ?
[11:21:04] <dclarke> maybe
[11:21:18] <Berny> format doesn't help much
[11:21:19] <dclarke> run format -e
[11:21:28] <dclarke> that should bring up a disk list
[11:21:34] <dclarke> do you get that ?
[11:21:35] <richlowe> iostat doesn't tell you?
[11:21:49] <Berny> yeah does give a list
[11:22:09] <ofu> format -mM -> inq
[11:22:16] <dclarke> since when did iostat report disk data?
[11:22:21] <richlowe> dclarke: iostat -En
[11:22:22] <Berny> 0. c0d0 <DEFAULT cyl 30397 alt 2 hd 255 sec 63>
[11:22:30] <dclarke> oh .. is that new ?
[11:22:33] <richlowe> No.
[11:22:43] <Berny> iostat does the trick
[11:22:46] <Berny> cheers!
[11:22:48] <dclarke> colour me surprised
[11:22:57] <dclarke> one sec while I check that on my Sparc 20
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[11:23:32] <dclarke> I always used format -e and then performed a scsi inquiry to get disk serial numbers and model etc etc
[11:23:56] <Berny> seems not to work with sata disks
[11:24:01] <dclarke> iostat -En
[11:24:02] <dclarke> wow
[11:24:11] <dclarke> Mr. Rich I owe you a beer
[11:24:15] <Berny> hehe
[11:24:17] <dclarke> I have been edified
[11:24:31] <dclarke> and I *thought* I knew my way around Solaris
[11:24:38] <Berny> you sure do!
[11:24:52] <Berny> but there's always something new to learn :-)
[11:25:02] <tomww> dclarke: hi :-)
[11:25:10] <dclarke> hello Mr. JET
[11:25:14] <dclarke> :-)
[11:25:20] <dclarke> you're up early
[11:25:25] <tomww> thanks Mr. Blastwave-Jet-Love
[11:25:37] <tomww> its 11:24 am for me :-)
[11:25:52] <dclarke> oh ..
[11:26:08] <dclarke> JET is getting some press lately
[11:26:27] <dclarke> good thing too .. its not well known and sort of a swiss army knift tool for booting systems
[11:26:31] <tomww> have a URL?
[11:26:45] <dclarke> ummm ... I'll have difficulty with that
[11:26:49] <dclarke> I have no browser
[11:26:55] <dclarke> no working system at the moment
[11:26:58] <tomww> no problem :_)
[11:26:59] <dclarke> parts all over the place
[11:27:05] <dclarke> and .. I'm on a Sparc 20
[11:27:08] <dclarke> no joke
[11:27:08] <tomww> good luck with repairing
[11:27:14] <dclarke> $ uname -a
[11:27:15] <dclarke> SunOS fossil 5.8 Generic_117350-47 sun4m sparc SUNW,SPARCstation-20
[11:27:35] <tomww> fossil is a very wisely chosen nodename
[11:27:48] <dclarke> well .. I installed Solaris 10 Update 4 into my day-to-day machine and inside of 15 minutes it had pathological performance issues
[11:27:58] <Berny> ok next question...  now that sun's webserver seems to be down... whats the latest bios rev for the x2200m2? :-)
[11:28:20] <dclarke> so .. I'm doing memory upgrades here
[11:28:27] <dclarke> bios rev for x2200 ?
[11:28:34] <dclarke> geez .. Sunsolve would know
[11:28:50] <Berny> been there tried that :-P
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[11:28:55] <Berny> just times out for me
[11:29:34] <Berny> .oO(as does opensolaris.org :-\)
[11:30:09] <dclarke> really ?
[11:30:16] <dclarke> can you reach Blastwave.org ?
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[11:31:16] <dclarke> okay ... I guess not
[11:31:17] <Berny> yepp
[11:31:22] <dclarke> oh .. okay
[11:31:27] <dclarke> at least something works here
[11:31:37] <dclarke> one sec .. let me use lynx
[11:32:01] <tomww> Berny: http://www.sun.com/servers/x64/x2200/downloads.jsp
[11:32:33] <dclarke> if he can reach that
[11:32:34] <tomww> BIOS revision see description: 2200M2 BIOS - 3B17
[11:32:37] <tomww> SP - 3.09
[11:32:52] <Berny> tomww: that i'm trying... times out
[11:32:54] <Berny> cheers
[11:32:59] <dclarke> I'm happy to report that that page loads fine in a simple text browser
[11:33:09] <Berny> yuck
[11:33:14] <tomww> and x2200 ...
[11:33:47] <dclarke> yuck?
[11:34:01] <dclarke> when all else fails .. lynx or links works
[11:34:26] <Berny> i'm behind in bios revs ;-)
[11:34:29] <dclarke> now I'm booting a new VIA C7 based motherboard here
[11:34:40] <dclarke> VIA C7 1GHz appliance thing
[11:34:48] <dclarke> this is where JET will help big time
[11:35:09] <dclarke> once I get the config figured out .. it can be net-booted and installed practically hands off
[11:35:34] <sickness> kewl!
[11:35:53] <dclarke> anyone here know their way around RAM and memory specs for PCs ?
[11:36:09] <dclarke> I have lived in the Sparc world too long .. the Sparc 20 is a dead give away
[11:36:20] <dclarke> I have a machine ... quite old .. very stable
[11:36:35] <dclarke> it has 512MB of RAM in it and that was fine until today
[11:36:48] <dclarke> I installed S10u4 and all went to hell quickly
[11:36:52] <Berny> lynx times out as well :-(
[11:36:53] <trygvis> until today?
[11:37:01] <dclarke> so I figure I'll pop in more memory
[11:37:15] <dclarke> yes .. today .. well 12 hours ago .. I installed S10u4 in it
[11:37:23] <dclarke> I was able to login
[11:37:29] <dclarke> create a user account
[11:37:40] <dclarke> log in as a regular user and JDS starts up
[11:37:48] <dclarke> network functionality was terrible
[11:38:06] <dclarke> really really bad .. and that is the fault of the poor quality pcn driver in Solaris
[11:38:33] <dclarke> if you have a machine with an AMD PCnet ethernet chip in it .. then you get stuck with the pcn driver
[11:38:38] <dclarke> and it sucks ... badly
[11:38:53] <dclarke> so I then insert a CDROM and it gets mounted
[11:39:10] <dclarke> on that CDROM is the Studio 12 packages as well as all patches needed
[11:39:17] <dclarke> I made it for just these occasions
[11:39:31] <dclarke> I opened a GNOME Terminal to copy the files locally
[11:39:37] <dclarke> machine started swapping
[11:39:41] <dclarke> never recovered
[11:39:48] <dclarke> after 8 hours I pulled the plug
[11:40:42] <dclarke> that's the story of how my day to day work machine got hosed up and now I need memory
[11:40:45] <dclarke> but
[11:40:59] * dclarke wonders if anyone is reading this anymore
[11:41:06] * Berny is
[11:41:10] * trochej is
[11:41:18] <dclarke> the memory in the box is ye old old 128MB sticks at 100MHz
[11:41:25] * Berny has some spare cycles while trying to connect to sun.com
[11:41:31] <dclarke> I have 256MB sticks here
[11:41:37] <dclarke> but ..
[11:41:44] <dclarke> here is the conundrum
[11:41:59] <dclarke> this RAM says 133MHz on it
[11:42:08] <dclarke> and its ECC which is good
[11:42:25] <dclarke> but .. the original memory in the machine was 100MHz memory
[11:42:28] <dclarke> do I care ?
[11:42:37] <dclarke> is this an issue ?
[11:42:38] <Berny> no, just try it :-)
[11:42:58] <dclarke> ah yes .. the "let's experiment" approach
[11:43:09] <dclarke> well .. that seems reasonable
[11:43:13] <Berny> thats the way to go in peecee world...
[11:43:22] <Cyrille> keep a camera handy to take pictures in case it starts smoking ;-)
[11:43:25] <dclarke> the last thing I can do is give up on this old machine
[11:43:27] <Berny> hehe
[11:43:36] * dclarke looks for camera
[11:43:46] <dclarke> this is a monster of a old old tower PC server box
[11:43:54] <Cyrille> I guess it depends on the motherboard (whether it'll support the 133MHz RAM)
[11:44:02] <dclarke> an HP Kayak XU with dual procs and dual DVD burners
[11:44:27] <dclarke> ooh .. KnoppiX finally booted on my VIA based motherboard here
[11:44:28] * Berny saw smoke this morning...
[11:44:39] <dclarke> I may get an X based world yet and away from this Sparc 20
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[11:45:11] <Berny> went by my garage to pick up something... there is a kinda asian market next to it... whole line of buildings burnt down yesterday.. still smoking today
[11:46:01] <trochej> Uhm
[11:46:22] <trochej> Please, remind me, what file I neet to touch in /etc/, so that Solaris 10 reconfigures next boot up?
[11:46:25] <dclarke> someone was deep frying without a license
[11:46:46] <dclarke> touch /reconfigure
[11:46:50] <dclarke> it is not in /etc
[11:47:14] <trochej> ohhhh
[11:47:21] <trochej> Yeah, that't why it didn't work
[11:47:24] <trochej> Thanx
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[11:47:39] <dclarke> I rarely ever use it
[11:47:40] <Berny> hehe... seems more like some trouble in their community... burglar alarm went of, then the fire started... looks pretty obvious
[11:47:53] <Berny> trochej: boot -r ;-)
[11:47:53] <dclarke> just use -r at the boot options to the kernel
[11:48:17] * dclarke thinks great minds think alike
[11:48:26] <Berny> :-)
[11:48:51] <dclarke> dammit !  why the hell does KnoppiX look soooo damn nice and Solaris sooo ugly ? is there anything that can be done ?
[11:49:17] <Berny> use nevada with the latest vermillion build
[11:49:23] <Berny> looks pretty neat :-)
[11:49:26] <dclarke> seriously .. I looked at the new Companion CD/DVD ISO and as usual there are a total of 119 packages there and KDE is from 2004
[11:49:30] <dclarke> it is just sad
[11:49:38] <richlowe> except the gtk bits.
[11:49:39] <dclarke> I have snv_70 here also
[11:49:58] <Berny> wait for stefan teleman to finish the new kde build
[11:50:04] <dclarke> but the network drivers do not support either the AMD PCnet ethernet nor the RealTek devices in my machines here
[11:50:17] <dclarke> stefan has been doing great work for years
[11:50:24] <dclarke> then Sun hired him :-P
[11:50:29] <richlowe> dclarke: and, of course, "Don't make it less ugly, let the system do the work you ask it to, rather than waste time on 50,000 meaningless bits of GUI crap"
[11:50:32] * dclarke joking
[11:50:39] <Berny> i've heard that stry ;-)
[11:50:44] <dlg> sun hires guys who write drivers?
[11:51:03] <Berny> stefan didn't write drivers ;-)
[11:51:06] <dclarke> richlowe : I am happy as a lark with OpenWindows from Solaris 8 on servers
[11:51:11] <trochej> dclarke: BTW, I think I asked you once, but can't be sure. We want to translate Solaris 10 installation howto from blastwave. Can we?
[11:51:18] <dclarke> but on a desktop and day to day machine .. I expect better
[11:51:33] <dclarke> trochej : sure !
[11:51:34] <richlowe> dclarke: did nobody deal with the rge rfe yet?
[11:51:36] <dclarke> please do
[11:51:44] * Berny still runs openwin on most of the regular desktops (being ss5, ss20 and the like ;-))
[11:51:48] <trochej> dclarke: Thanx. :)
[11:51:53] <dclarke> richlowe : the rge problem has many faces
[11:52:15] <dclarke> trochej : where do you want to host it and in what languages because I am writing an update to it
[11:52:30] <trochej> dclarke: pl.opensolaris.org and Polish
[11:52:35] <dclarke> perfect
[11:52:46] <dclarke> I want to point to it then
[11:52:56] <dclarke> also .. it needs fixup
[11:53:03] <dclarke> I was going to attack it this weekend
[11:53:08] <dclarke> can you wait a week ?
[11:54:13] <trochej> Sure
[11:54:27] <trochej> I was writing an email to you since June, so I can wait a week :)
[11:54:50] <Berny> you type pretty slow :-P
[11:55:00] <dclarke> speaking of slow
[11:55:15] <dclarke> I am also working on a piece about modems
[11:55:18] <trochej> Berny: Not true, I was busy with pl.opensolaris.org portal and some 8 chapters of ZFS Admin Guide
[11:55:31] <Berny> trochej: perfect excuse... ;-)
[11:55:34] <dclarke> many people ask me how to do dialup with a modem from Solaris and so
[11:55:42] <dclarke> that needs to be documented .. nicely
[11:56:19] <trochej> Berny: It so happens that there is only 9th chapter left and then we upgrade to September release and then a proofreading and then probably upgrading to next release :)
[11:56:40] <Berny> trochej: translations are tidious
[11:57:05] <trochej> Berny: I'm doing community technical transtlations since 2000, so I know :)
[11:57:24] <trochej> LKML, Wine traffic, Debian Weekly Traffic, some at my work, now OpenSolaris docs
[11:57:45] <Berny> my sis is a translator... i proof read some stuff yesterday... ugly piece of crap... text on gems from afghanistan, written by two italian guy in english to be translated into german...
[11:57:51] <trochej> Berny: Three years of liguistic and theory of literature studies helps a lot :)
[11:58:26] <Berny> trochej: she studied that stuff... i only have two years living in the uk as reference ;-)
[11:58:28] <trochej> Berny: Yeah, it's how translations of Stanislav Lem's works look in English.
[11:58:33] * dclarke just hammers out whatever and calls it docs
[11:58:36] <WickedWicky> two years of hotel management definatly is helping my current carreer as a sysadmin *shrug*
[11:58:44] <Berny> lol wicky
[11:59:11] <Berny> trochej: i see we agree on that being a nice job ;-)
[11:59:40] <trochej> I used to be an accountant, mechanic, admin at ISP, soldier, tailor...
[11:59:42] <trochej> Forgot something?
[11:59:49] <trochej> Oh, I did some DTP
[12:00:07] * Berny is mostly harmless
[12:00:36] <Berny> sometimes i wish i had learned something decent...
[12:01:02] <Berny> undertaker... florist... cook...
[12:01:20] <dclarke> WickedWicky : so .. any funny updates on the whole CSW software fiasco ?
[12:02:13] * Berny goes to pick up some food... maybe someone fixes the sun webserver meanwhile
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[12:02:47] <pl0nk> test
[12:03:01] <pl0nk> okay .. that works well
[12:03:16] <dclarke> pardon me .. am switching systems
[12:03:19] <WickedWicky> dclarke: I sent you a mail
[12:03:35] <dclarke> cool .. I'll be right back
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[12:04:32] <trochej> dclarke: Wiiluve me a mesg when you update howto?
[12:04:37] <dclarke> okay .. am on KnoppiX now
[12:04:38] <trochej> fok
[12:04:47] <trochej> I love my wifi
[12:04:56] <trochej> That was actually Will you give me...
[12:04:59] <dclarke> whoa
[12:05:05] <dclarke> Sparc 20 just panic'ed
[12:05:16] <dclarke> unix:die+b8
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[12:05:53] <dclarke> that should make for an interesting core dump later
[12:06:10] <dclarke> trochej, as for translation .. sure thing
[12:06:21] <dclarke> should be by early next week
[12:06:39] <dclarke> Solaris 10 Update 4 has no big surprises in it for installation ..
[12:06:53] <dclarke> but I need to add a few words on a few pages
[12:06:57] <trochej> thnx
[12:07:31] <dclarke> WickedWicky, you sent me email ? when ?
[12:11:58] <dclarke> and in the news : http://www.forbes.com/feeds/ap/2007/09/05/ap4086085.html
[12:12:21] <dclarke> the USA does not have to worry about terrorists at all .. they have to worry about their own dumb people
[12:14:43] <quasi> dclarke: just leave it to darwin ;)
[12:15:34] <dclarke> I rarely travel into the USA but recently, over the long weekend, I was down there and the standard of living is so poor down there compared to Canada
[12:16:06] <dclarke> I was surprised to see abandoned buildings and really shabby looking conditions in Michigan state
[12:16:35] <dclarke> I worry that the US economy is about to collapse and take us with it
[12:16:51] <dclarke> we need another great depression like a hole in the head
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[12:18:14] <quasi> you might as well go punch that hole in your head now
[12:18:56] <dclarke> nope .. I have to install some RAM first .. so if smoke comes out of my PC
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[12:24:25] <Pietro_S> how can I discover how much my swap is used?
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[12:26:31] <tomww> /usr/sbin/swap -l
[12:27:48] <tomww> dclarke: what if you boot with something like  "boot -m milestone=none" and reduce amount of services by svcadm disable <manyofthem> ?
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[12:28:33] <dclarke> tomww : sounds like a reasonable experiment
[12:28:57] <dclarke> however .. I need more RAM anyways
[12:29:26] <rootard> doesn't everyone?
[12:29:27] <dclarke> at the moment I need to boot snv_70 on this new motherboard and see if it works .. at all
[12:30:17] <dclarke> also .. I am looking at the article for the Casimir effect at wikipedia
[12:30:28] <dclarke> and I need sleep ..
[12:30:31] <dclarke> :-/
[12:30:42] <rootard> What time is it there?
[12:31:59] <rootard> nm, ma...
[12:42:58] <tomww> rootard: 2 or 3 am I think :-)
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[12:56:27] <JWheeler> alrighty, SXCE 71, here we come.. I hope
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[13:00:35] <CIA-26> jp161948: 6599821 CVE-2007-3108 needs to be fixed
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[13:19:56] <Berny> hmpf www.sun.com seems still down for me :-(
[13:20:54] <kjetilho> up for me
[13:20:55] <renihs> its never down, only slow sometimes :P
[13:21:04] <renihs> slow is very stretchable :p
[13:21:19] <Berny> so slow it times out for hours now?
[13:21:28] <renihs> happens :p
[13:21:35] <renihs> for me too
[13:21:38] <renihs> if you care :p
[13:21:49] <Berny> hehe least i'm not alone
[13:22:39] <renihs> ahno, now it opened
[13:22:44] <renihs> took a minute
[13:23:15] <renihs> and my traffic sheep is roaming, so cant be our line :p
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[13:28:03] <Berny> hurray sunsolve let me in...
[13:29:16] <kjetilho> Berny: I read on a list that some core routers are having problems today
[13:29:30] <kjetilho> someone suddenly advertised 7500 new address prefixes
[13:29:39] <Berny> hmpf
[13:29:48] <Berny> can i use you as proxy? ;-)
[13:29:57] <kjetilho> so www.microsoft.com and lots of others were unavailable to the Scandinavian University network
[13:30:10] <Berny> hehe dont care about microsoft...
[13:30:24] <Berny> all i want is a bios update for my x2200m2
[13:36:32] <Doc> you realise they are on SDLC, not sunsolve?
[13:36:53] <Berny> yepp
[13:37:15] <Berny> i'm hoping system handbook has a direct link to the download
[13:38:43] <Doc> sun.com/downloads -> A-Z -> Sun Fire X2200M2
[13:39:14] <Berny> that times out...
[13:39:30] <Berny> and shb points to that page as well
[13:39:45] <Doc> works for me
[13:40:37] <Berny> hmpf
[13:40:48] <Berny> seems to work for everyone but me
[13:40:55] <Doc> SDLC is probably the second most fucked up web application ever
[13:41:09] <Doc> (after Sunsolve itself and the docs.sun.com search engine)
[13:41:59] <Doc> (1) 6546916: elom is vulnerable to unauthorised access, spammers use his elom as a proxy to send spam
[13:42:07] <Doc> that's a fairly warped bug...
[13:42:26] <Berny> someone pointed to some coughing core routers
[13:45:23] * tomww wonders if elom could be used as a core router
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[13:48:40] <Berny> heureka... i can get it using my homebox as proxy ...
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[13:50:24] <boro> afternoon ;)
[13:51:14] <boro> how can i change nfs4 domain name later after installatioin ? or is it derived from /etc/defaultdomain ?
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[13:53:57] <boro> ah, /etc/default/nfs
[14:08:47] <Berny> hmpf
[14:12:52] <Berny> AH!
[14:12:55] <Berny> it's flashing
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[14:35:31] <WickedWicky> I'm gonna reboot
[14:35:32] <WickedWicky> brb
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[14:43:41] <kaiwai> hmm
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[15:04:35] <SYS64738> hi
[15:04:59] <SYS64738> is it possible to create a new zone using and old filesystem's zone ?
[15:06:22] <Triskelios> SYS64738: "old filesystem"? you can clone a zone from an existing one..
[15:07:10] <SYS64738> Triskelios, I reinstalled a opensolaris and I would like to recover old zones that are in the second disk
[15:09:51] <flyingparchment> to create a raid-10 with zfs, i do "mirror A B mirror C D mirror E F", etc. right?
[15:10:42] <Triskelios> SYS64738: maybe you can snapshot the filesystem and create a new zone on the filesystem, then roll back to the snapshot?
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[15:10:57] <WickedWicky> hoorah
[15:11:11] <SYS64738> yes but I haven't the xml files in the /etc/zones
[15:12:00] <Triskelios> SYS64738: write one by hand?
[15:12:51] <SYS64738> I create a new zone and see the syntax
[15:12:57] <Triskelios> SYS64738: my original suggestion was to just use zoneadm, etc. to create one normally on the same fs, then rollback the filesystem to the way it was before
[15:13:10] <SYS64738> ah ok
[15:13:14] <SYS64738> thanks
[15:16:11] <ofu> oh, SUN got caneland-hardware: http://blogs.zdnet.com/Ou/?p=730
[15:17:34] <kjetilho> how do I mount mnttab in two places at once?
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[15:20:05] <kjetilho> ahhh, my error was calling the fstype mnttab, not mntfs
[15:20:22] <quasi> ofu: that almost looks like a nice server ;)
[15:20:54] <kaiwai> hmm, that'll be a nice box to run solaris on
[15:21:01] *** MattMan is now known as MattAFC
[15:21:13] <kaiwai> what is the chance some person will butcher it by putting linux or windows on it?
[15:21:17] <Triskelios> which hypervisor are they referring to in the article?
[15:21:50] <quasi> kaiwai: surely you'd only need the 256G memory if it was running windows ;)
[15:22:18] <kaiwai> oooh, that could be a bit of a struggle
[15:22:55] <kaiwai> 256G, that'll be just enough to boot and power the AWESOME aero interface
[15:22:58] <quasi> nice box to run sunray server or even vmware on
[15:23:15] <Triskelios> 1-2G per guest...
[15:23:36] <kaiwai> quasi: true, too bad the sun ray appliances are relatively expensive though
[15:23:59] <quasi> kaiwai: last gen can be had for next to nothing
[15:24:00] <kaiwai> if they were $200 a piece, it would be a great deal, or free as part of a bigger package
[15:24:33] <jmcp> kaiwqai, ofu: indeed it is
[15:24:44] * ofu wants one
[15:26:02] <kaiwai> A spiffy purple laptop with black trip, Sun logo and a sparc processor - that would be nice
[15:26:13] <ofu> with Intel/AMD-Quadcores and T2, we will sure be able to shrink our datacentre down to 20 racks I think
[15:26:14] <kaiwai> *trim
[15:26:30] <flyingparchment> ofu: and another 20 racks to cool all those quad core systems
[15:26:50] <ofu> flyingparchment: sure
[15:26:55] <kaiwai> ofu: I'd wait till the new Intel processors come out that support CSI
[15:27:06] <ofu> in about 10 months?
[15:27:31] <kaiwai> Probably the end of this year I think
[15:28:12] <boyd> Better than barcelona you reckon?
[15:28:30] <kaiwai> boyd: on paper it appears; both promise the earth but I'd be sceptical
[15:28:58] <boyd> I'd be extra skeptical of the first gen CSI chips
[15:29:05] <flyingparchment> what is CSI?
[15:29:17] <ofu> quickpath
[15:29:24] <kaiwai> dear god, is Sun run by dickheads?
[15:29:32] <ofu> intels hypertransport-thing
[15:29:33] <kaiwai> I can't access the catalogue with out an account
[15:29:41] <boyd> flyingparchment: http://realworldtech.com/page.cfm?ArticleID=RWT082807020032&p=1
[15:29:53] <boyd> What the reg calls "operation copy hypertransport"
[15:30:43] <kaiwai> well then call hyper transport EV8 rip off
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[15:31:31] <boyd> Of course, everything is derivative of something else..
[15:32:17] <kaiwai> Blade 150 looks spiffy
[15:32:31] <kaiwai> hopefully by the end of this year I'll find a cheap enough tadpole laptop
[15:32:57] <boyd> Ha! the Chaser made Slashdot!
[15:33:08] <kaiwai> lol
[15:33:16] <kaiwai> the 'chaser' security for apec
[15:33:23] <boyd> yep
[15:33:30] <kaiwai> CNNNN was awesome
[15:33:35] <kaiwai> "we report, you believe"
[15:33:44] * boyd nods
[15:33:46] <kaiwai> the right wing line dance was good :P
[15:33:55] <kaiwai> "swing to the right, swing to the right...."
[15:33:57] <boyd> You got it over there, obv
[15:34:06] <kaiwai> na, I was in aussie for three years
[15:34:27] <kaiwai> in the ass crack of aussie - canberra
[15:34:34] <boyd> Ah... I thought is may be a little too local
[15:34:42] <boyd> Sorry about the canberra thing
[15:35:00] <boyd> You should commiserate with edwardocallaghan... he's there now
[15:36:13] * boyd ponders an iPod Touch
[15:36:25] <kaiwai> well, I'd would have stayed by the IT sector there is filled to the brim with dishonest assholes
[15:36:56] <boyd> We're not all dishonest.
[15:37:05] <boyd> (or assholes, I hasten to add)
[15:38:00] <kaiwai> having experienced it first hand I'm happy not to be living there any longer
[15:38:17] <kaiwai> companies using the three month 'probation' period to screw people over
[15:43:58] *** jarvaway is now known as jarv
[15:44:42] <kaiwai> if you need 'three month probations' then obviously you're a crap employer
[15:45:03] <renihs> 3 months is pretty long
[15:45:06] <renihs> 1 month its usually :p
[15:45:32] * quasi chuckles at schwartz's "Thank You, Network Appliance" post
[15:45:53] <kaiwai> "use the schwartz my son!"
[15:46:15] <kaiwai> yes, one does need to reference space balls once and a while
[15:46:37] <kaiwai> renihs: then again, it all occured when I was young, naive
[15:46:50] <renihs> ya but that makes it even worse
[15:46:59] <renihs> thats abuse then :p
[15:47:00] <kaiwai> renihs: the funny part is I had the damn boss's girlfriend flirting with me :(
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[15:47:31] <renihs> hmm cant be cute then :p
[15:48:03] <kaiwai> lol, too bad she failed to realise I don't do twatt
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[15:48:34] <kaiwai> my next employer I stayed for 2 years but thats due to the fact I knew the prostitute he was banging on the side
[15:49:02] <kaiwai> leverage is always good
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[15:49:53] <renihs> you stayed for 2 years because your boss was banging a prostitute? how is that related? :p
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[15:50:30] <kaiwai> his wife didn't know
[15:50:30] <kaiwai> :)
[15:50:49] <kaiwai> not that I would ever tell her - I prefer to allow the universe to sort things out over time
[15:51:13] <renihs> hmm i think the % of mammals *not* doing that is < then alpha 0.05
[15:51:26] <nachox> morning
[15:51:43] <kaiwai> good morning nachox
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[15:53:33] <the-decider> ooh!  Jon vs Dave blog fight!
[15:53:53] <flyingparchment> are there any performance improvements for ZFS in OLTP workloads in u4 compared to u3?
[15:54:05] <kaiwai> dave who?
[15:54:18] <the-decider> the netapp guy
[15:54:21] <the-decider> http://blogs.netapp.com/dave/
[15:54:26] <kaiwai> oh, 'and I snapped him!'
[15:54:41] <kaiwai> someone just needs to give him a knuckle sandwich
[15:55:46] <kaiwai> either that or sniff packets and blackmail him
[15:55:55] <kaiwai> I prefer the later
[15:56:16] <kaiwai> partially because I have more experience in that area
[15:57:19] <the-decider> yes, the "we'd like to thank our friends at netapp..." paragraph is priceless.
[15:57:42] <the-decider> I'm sure some of the lawyers cringed at the snarkiness.
[15:57:56] <quasi> the-decider: yeah, it had me chuckling
[15:58:25] <WickedWicky> whomever aproached who, this x4500 looks neat
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[15:58:48] <kaiwai> dear god, dave as a face that askes to be punched
[15:58:53] * jmcp reads b.s.c/jonathan
[15:58:58] <kaiwai> I never realised just how fucking irritating he looks
[15:58:58] <jmcp> beautiful
[15:59:03] <WickedWicky> jmcp: I read it
[15:59:05] <WickedWicky> wonderfull reply
[15:59:08] <the-decider> dave, or jonathan?
[15:59:20] <quasi> jonathan is the reply
[15:59:31] <jmcp> the-decider: jonathan
[15:59:50] <jmcp> quote :: "And Sun indemnifies its customers, so I'd encourage all interested parties to compare the economics of ZFS and Thumper to what you're currently forced to pay - the savings are absolutely shocking."
[15:59:53] * jmcp rotfl
[16:00:05] <jmcp> this should be part of advertising 101 in uni
[16:01:22] <kaiwai> hmm, more like Sun encroaching on netapp terroritory and how they're shitting bricks
[16:01:27] <kaiwai> *now
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[16:03:45] <kaiwai> play it in the media, drag netapp, ceo and so forth through the mud - vilify and dig up dirt where possibly
[16:04:01] <jmcp> no need to stoop that low
[16:04:07] <kaiwai> awww
[16:04:10] <jmcp> sticking to the facts works really well
[16:04:11] <kaiwai> but its so much fun :'(
[16:04:22] <Tempt> It's so easy to hate NetApp
[16:04:25] <jmcp> but it's not the Sun way of doing things, as I understand it
[16:04:41] <jmcp> I've got mates who work for them
[16:04:48] <jmcp> they tried to recruit me :)
[16:04:51] <Tempt> The easiest way to hate NetApp is to be a sysadmin who supports boxes using their storage
[16:05:00] <WickedWicky> it's much more fun tearing things down by stating facts
[16:05:26] <jmcp> very difficult for a court to rule against you when you do actually have the facts on your side
[16:05:26] <WickedWicky> since there is nothing the other can plausibly reply
[16:05:27] <kaiwai> WickedWicky: not really, using third party shadow organisations which devulge personal information is alot more fun
[16:05:39] * jmcp realises he's commented
[16:05:43] <jmcp> damnation
[16:05:50] * jmcp bows out of this conversation
[16:06:26] * WickedWicky gives you a coffee
[16:06:37] <kaiwai> I'm sure karl rove is shedding a tear knowing another generation is coming through who is even more evil :-D
[16:07:12] <holcomb> they grow up so fast...
[16:08:07] <jmcp> WickedWicky: at 00:07, I don't really want a coffee. But thankyou for offering
[16:08:19] <kaiwai> *gives jmcp a hot toddy*
[16:08:48] <ofu> Tempt: netapp is not _that_ bad
[16:09:06] <Tempt> ofu: I've had bad experiences, I'm an unhappy customer, I wouldn't buy their product again.
[16:09:16] <Tempt> ofu: (well, it wasn't my idea to buy it in the first place)
[16:09:37] * LeftWing grumbles something-or-other about appliances.
[16:09:53] <ofu> oh, we are not completely happy, but i think there are worse things out there
[16:10:00] <Tempt> It's often said that one happy customer will share their happy customer story with 2 people on average, whereas one unhappy customer will bitch to at least 20.
[16:10:04] <ofu> at least wafl is pretty stable
[16:10:14] <kaiwai> ofu: whats Sun stuff like compared to NetApp?
[16:10:31] <ofu> kaiwai: what do you mean?
[16:10:41] <ofu> i have no experience with sun storages
[16:10:50] <ofu> except a1000/d1000 and a3500
[16:11:01] <Auralis> the crapp ones :)
[16:11:13] <ofu> or do you mean sun servers?
[16:11:36] <kaiwai> ofu: Sun's storage products
[16:11:56] <ofu> oh, we also got an l700... nothing to talk about, boring, just works
[16:12:18] <ofu> we got 2 thumpers, that also just work... those are fine systems
[16:12:51] <Tempt> A1000/D1000 were LSI/Symbios products effectively, and A3500 was ... umn, I think that might have been LSI/Symbios as well.
[16:12:51] * ofu is still searching for sas-connected sata-jbods to build an ueber-thumper
[16:12:52] <jmcp> ofu: if "it just works" is what you're saying about it, then the engineering teams have achieved their goal
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[16:13:01] <jmcp> ofu: ST2530, iirc
[16:13:01] <Tempt> A3500 turned up on RS/6000s just as much as Suns.
[16:13:21] <ofu> Tempt: a3500 the same thing, pentium1-100 inside
[16:13:34] * jmcp hates A3500/A3500fc with great, great passion
[16:13:39] <ofu> jmcp: ST2530 is "just" engenio/lsi
[16:13:43] <kaiwai> StorageTek must have boosted Sun's business a fair bit
[16:13:54] <ofu> and can not be purchased as jbod, it is hw-raid only
[16:14:06] <SYS64738> is zfs faster than ufs ?
[16:14:19] <kaiwai> yeap
[16:14:21] <jmcp> ofu: ah, sorry - you're quite correct. I did ask about it though ... no joy on that front
[16:15:05] * ofu thinks about supermicro-chassis with sas-sata-cables as dumb and cheap disk shelf stuff
[16:15:07] <kaiwai> hmm, smart move; sun didn't butcher the storagetek name
[16:15:27] <kaiwai> now maybe they learned something from the cobalt cockup
[16:15:48] <ofu> i want to throw away tape backup and do networker -> disk instead
[16:16:02] <jmcp> ofu: don't ditch the tapes
[16:16:36] <ofu> why? they are so slow...
[16:16:44] <holcomb> d2d2t!
[16:16:55] <ofu> we got a second data centre 700km away
[16:17:06] <jmcp> ofu: their long term reliability is - as far as I'm aware - better than rotating rust
[16:17:06] <ofu> right now we do backup -> disk and then disk -> tape
[16:17:10] <tsoome> buy a decent tape
[16:17:28] <ofu> rotating rust? i thought zfs cares about it
[16:17:37] <jmcp> yeah, ZFS does
[16:17:46] <jmcp> but that isn't going to satisfy your auditors, now, is it?
[16:17:52] <Auralis> for real long term you want MOD
[16:18:11] <ofu> long term means 3 months for me
[16:18:15] <Triskelios> hmm, does running cachefs off of flash memory make sense?
[16:18:21] <jmcp> ofu: for an auditor, it's generally 7 years
[16:18:27] <kaiwai> apparently the top of the line Sun tape has a 30-year archival life
[16:18:40] <Tempt> How is rotating rust any worse than rust-onna-string, anyway?
[16:18:40] <kaiwai> http://www.sun.com/storagetek/tape_storage/tape_media/dlt/
[16:18:41] <ofu> cachefs? is it still supported?
[16:18:46] <Tempt> At the end of the day, it's all rust ;)
[16:18:58] <jmcp> kaiwai: I <3 LTO
[16:19:04] <Triskelios> ofu: yeah
[16:19:12] <Tempt> LTO is nice. I really need to get my home backups onto LTO
[16:19:19] <jmcp> Tempt: because rust-onna-string doesn't get quite the workout that the rotating form does
[16:19:58] <tsoome> well, with tapes its really easy to make off site copy...
[16:20:02] <jmcp> yeah
[16:20:06] <jmcp> many off-site copies
[16:20:16] <hile_> Unfortunatley, LTO is expensive
[16:20:31] <jmcp> true, but it's a lot cheaper now than when it was introduced
[16:20:33] <hile_> for home, I'd probably go IBM 3582 or 3583 depending on how mnay drives you wanted
[16:20:36] <tsoome> and hard core disk array is not?!
[16:20:36] <hile_> yeah no shit eh
[16:20:53] <hile_> tsoome, compared to the AIT-2 that I'm using soon :)
[16:20:56] <jmcp> I'm trying to get my boss to authorise an LTO for me :)
[16:21:05] <kaiwai> hile_ yeah, but if some other bugger is going to pay for it, who cares :P
[16:21:05] <tsoome> lol:)
[16:21:19] <hile_> jmcp, tell him you want a L700
[16:21:31] <jmcp> hile_: I might, but the WAF ain't so grand on that concept :|
[16:21:32] <kaiwai> I mean really, whats moer important, CEO has a private jet or protecting billions of dollars worth of information?
[16:21:50] <Auralis> obviously the jet
[16:22:13] <the-decider> I'd vote Jet too.
[16:23:00] <kaiwai> I wouldn't, then again, I'm scottish
[16:24:19] <kaiwai> hmm, lto, $1k each
[16:24:30] <kaiwai> lto media that is
[16:24:39] <ofu> i am planning on 50tbyte disk space for less than 100KE, including the EBS-license
[16:24:45] * Tempt coughs
[16:24:50] <Tempt> LTO media for $1k each?
[16:25:01] <Tempt> Man, I didn't realise the NZ economy was quite *that* pooched.
[16:25:03] <ofu> how much capacity do you get?
[16:25:10] <kaiwai> 800GB
[16:25:24] <trygvis> compressed?
[16:25:25] <ofu> 800 netto?
[16:25:33] <jmcp> kaiwai: lto4 media
[16:25:37] <Tempt> jmcp: Rust-onna-string stretches, is mishandled, shovelled around, gets dust in it, etc, etc.
[16:25:46] <jmcp> thrown, bumped ....
[16:25:51] <elektronkind> LTO-4 stuff is really brand-new
[16:25:54] <kaiwai> http://www.sun.com/storagetek/tape_storage/tape_media/lto/ <-- from $1k
[16:26:00] <ofu> shipped via ups
[16:26:04] <hile_> LTO4 is pretty cool :)
[16:26:08] <hile_> 800/1600
[16:26:13] <elektronkind> but I've been happy with my 4xLTO-3 library.
[16:26:14] <Tempt> Does anyone buy their tapes from Sun?
[16:26:15] <jmcp> so is the STK T10000
[16:26:16] <Tempt> I mean, honestly.
[16:26:30] <Tempt> kaiwai: You're a Sun salesman's wet dream.
[16:26:38] <Tempt> The STK10000 looks nice.
[16:26:44] <hile_> do you think anyone pays list from Sun?
[16:26:53] <Tempt> hile_: Apparently some people do.
[16:26:56] <kaiwai> Tempt: hmm, not that I'd complain if he was in the same bed as me :P
[16:27:03] <elektronkind> Tempt: he should buy a couple $1200 500GB hard drives while he's at it ;)
[16:27:17] <Tempt> kaiwai: Perhaps you have a prettier sales guy than I do.
[16:27:56] <Tempt> kaiwai: I can't imagine anyone wanting to jump into bed with our sales guy.
[16:28:03] <kaiwai> hmm, maybe I got lucky that day
[16:28:23] <kaiwai> then again, he's forte was Java and he had a mac laptop
[16:28:24] <leal> hello all...
[16:28:28] <kaiwai> *his
[16:28:29] <jmcp> kaiwai: did you read the "get it" link? that USD1030 is for a carton of 20
[16:28:37] <kaiwai> ah, for 20
[16:28:44] <jmcp> *much* nicer price
[16:28:45] <kaiwai> $1k sounded a little step
[16:29:07] <kaiwai> jmcp: when it says 'starts at $1k' its assumed 'per media'
[16:29:12] <leal> i'm using:  echo function_name+8c1::dis | mdb /usr/bin/program
[16:29:28] <jmcp> kaiwai: true, the webpage banner image ain't so specific
[16:29:38] <leal> but the output is assembly instructions... there is a way to know the "C line"?
[16:29:54] <jmcp> leal: you have to do that by hand
[16:30:05] <kaiwai> and only sold in packs of 20 - rather stupid/impractical
[16:30:23] <jmcp> kaiwai: not at all
[16:30:23] <elektronkind> kaiwai: not really
[16:30:38] <leal> jmcp: ok, you know about a howto or something?
[16:30:45] <jmcp> leal: not as such, sorry
[16:30:53] <jmcp> leal: do you have the source for the program?
[16:30:54] <elektronkind> kaiwai: considering LTO libraries - a decent one, at least - hold 200+tapes
[16:31:02] <kaiwai> ah, ok
[16:31:19] <kaiwai> those are those robotic type ones
[16:31:47] <jmcp> yes
[16:31:48] <elektronkind> yup
[16:32:15] <Tempt> You guys you check out the biggest StorageTek library
[16:32:18] <Tempt> Those things are amazingly cool.
[16:32:28] <leal> jmcp: i'm debugging with dtrace, and i did find the "function" where the problem is... so, now i did print the lines "offsets" for each instruction...
[16:32:38] <elektronkind> Tempt: I've seen two of those side-by-side at Stanford :)
[16:32:47] <elektronkind> Tempt: quite awe-inspireing
[16:32:52] <jmcp> leal: you'll need to disassemble the entire function and walk through it
[16:32:57] <elektronkind> unlike my spelling
[16:33:03] <leal> but i did not know how to identify that offsets on c code...
[16:33:11] <jmcp> leal: look for function calls within the routine which you can identify within the C source
[16:33:16] <jmcp> then you can roughly match up
[16:33:34] <kaiwai> now all sun needs to do is buy out Seagate :)
[16:33:42] <renihs> heh
[16:33:51] <renihs> good time for that is past :p
[16:34:02] <quasi> SL8500 fits quite a few tapes
[16:34:03] <leal> jmcp: ok, i think i would need a simpe example...
[16:34:09] <Tempt> elektronkind: Man, I have a great story, but not for public consumption
[16:34:47] <kaiwai> renihs: whilst we're on that dream, buy out goodman fielder too - 'Sun Microsystems good old fashioned cakes"
[16:34:48] <leal> gaddr2line?
[16:35:32] <jmcp> leal: gimme a mo
[16:35:33] <WickedWicky> erm, anyone knows if they made some performance enhancements in onnv_73? for i386/amd64?
[16:36:11] <quasi> sl8500 - up to 240PB storage
[16:36:18] <elektronkind> WickedWicky: yeah, x86_go_fast is set to 1 by default ;)
[16:36:22] <kaiwai> WickedWicky: hmm, well I noticed a speed boost in B72 but at the expense of no cd drive functional :P
[16:36:28] <WickedWicky> no serious, I compiled onnv_73
[16:36:31] <flyingparchment> /home/river/Software/onnv-gate/onnv-gate/usr/src/./uts/intel/core:      ELF 32-bit LSB core file 80386 Version 1, from 'lint2'
[16:36:37] <flyingparchment> that is probably not meant to be there, right?
[16:36:42] <WickedWicky> and it appears like things take less CPU/memory and things execute faster
[16:37:17] <kaiwai> WickedWicky: hmm, using the new linking -z direct?
[16:37:42] <quasi> WickedWicky: 73 is out?
[16:37:43] <WickedWicky> how do I find out? I just run nightly ./opensolaris.sh
[16:37:48] <WickedWicky> in mecurial repository, yeah
[16:37:57] <kaiwai> hmm, I'd say its in the script itself
[16:38:00] <quasi> ah
[16:38:07] <kaiwai> something like the ld setting
[16:39:33] <jmcp> leal: a very simple example http://pastebin.ca/684077
[16:39:38] <WickedWicky> quasi: onnv_73                         4996:1fec74abebba
[16:39:45] <leal> jmcp: thanks very much
[16:39:50] <leal> !!
[16:40:03] <jmcp> you're welcome
[16:40:39] <jmcp> leal: in the pastebin, line 28 is the call to logdmsg. that's line 1746 in the C source
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[16:41:01] <jmcp> leal: basically, match up known function calls and then work your way through
[16:42:01] <jmcp> time for bet
[16:42:02] <jmcp> bed
[16:42:03] <jmcp> gnite
[16:42:15] <flyingparchment> so, my onnv build finished, but it created no BFU archives.  what gives?
[16:42:48] <leal> thanks
[16:45:44] <flyingparchment> hmm, it's trying to do an nd build
[16:46:25] <kaiwai> good night
[16:46:31] <WickedWicky> night night
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[16:53:59] * flyingparchment wonders if ztune.sh still applies to S10U3 zfs
[16:56:41] <pfa3rh> flyingparchment: are you using nightly?
[16:57:09] <flyingparchment> pfa3rh: yes.  i passed -F and -D as NIGHTLY_OPTIONS
[16:57:51] <pfa3rh> but it's still doing non-debug?  that's odd. were those command line or environment file?
[16:57:55] <flyingparchment> oh, wait, that's not it
[16:58:05] <flyingparchment> i was confused, bldenv said non-DEBUG because i forgot to pass -d
[16:58:14] <flyingparchment> i guess this is the actual error: *** Error: malloc(340304) failed: Resource temporarily unavailable
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[16:59:29] <pfa3rh> yuck.  compiler error sounds like?  running out of memory
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[17:00:15] <CIA-26> cg13442: 6581372 specfs module accesses s_flag when not holding the lock.
[17:01:31] <SYS64738> how can I set a default root for a non global zone ?
[17:01:45] <flyingparchment> you mean a default route?
[17:01:51] <SYS64738> ehehhe yes sorry
[17:02:33] <SYS64738> I am using a physical if other than the one used in the global
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[17:03:04] <SYS64738> the global nic is connected to the lan and the non-global nic is connected in dmz
[17:03:08] <Tempt> default root
[17:03:18] <Tempt> is that screwing the wife because the mistress is away?
[17:03:58] <SYS64738> it's that a good or bad thing ?
[17:05:58] <nachox> depends on the wife
[17:06:14] <nachox> ...and the mistress :)
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[17:08:18] <SYS64738> can I do it (to add the second default route) without setting an ip to the physical interface ?
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[17:12:12] <Triskelios> SYS64738: all default routes have to be added in the global zone
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[17:13:17] <noyb> I downloaded vmware fusion a few days ago, constructed the snv_70 iso, installed.  all working great on my macbook pro.  very nice.
[17:13:21] <Triskelios> SYS64738: the global zone will ignore the ones meant for other zones..
[17:13:31] <SYS64738> ok
[17:13:39] <SYS64738> thanks
[17:13:59] <Triskelios> noyb: cool
[17:14:18] <noyb> yes indeed.
[17:14:33] <noyb> and I think I was caught hugging my mac.  :-)
[17:15:28] <the-decider> you can love your mac, but you can't LOVE your mac.
[17:16:37] <noyb> thanks for the tip.
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[17:23:27] <nachox> what was the command to change the active group?
[17:23:37] <flyingparchment> newgrp?
[17:24:17] <Cyrille> is there a new command?
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[17:25:28] <Tempt> CAN HAS NEW GROUP PLEASE?
[17:25:37] <Fish-> hello
[17:25:45] <Tempt> 'ello
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[17:26:03] <nachox> flyingparchment: thanks :)
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[17:26:29] <nachox> that has to be the most unused command in unix, heh
[17:27:03] <Tempt> The CAN HAS command?
[17:27:04] <Tempt> Sure is.
[17:31:17] <elektronkind> oh dear
[17:31:25] <elektronkind> here's a bug one should NOT report:
[17:31:26] <elektronkind> http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=472370
[17:31:46] <elektronkind> scroll past the stack trace for the punchline
[17:31:49] <noyb> I think the syntax is CAN HAZ NEW GRP PLZES ?
[17:32:06] <Tempt> lols
[17:32:12] <Tempt> That's a classic bug report.
[17:32:23] <wesolows> elektronkind: classic
[17:32:36] <noyb> and if you run the command thru an image viewer, you see an image of a cute cat.
[17:33:28] <noyb> but I digress from the digression...
[17:36:19] <flyingparchment> what's the best vendor for a basic, cheap FC switch?
[17:36:29] <Tempt> Cisco!
[17:36:31] <Tempt> Oh, cheap.
[17:36:32] <Tempt> Err
[17:36:33] <Tempt> Cisco!
[17:37:01] <Tempt> Oh, you said FC
[17:37:06] <Tempt> As in Fibre Channel.
[17:37:28] <Tempt> Ummn, well, there are three players in the market - Brocade, McData and Cisco. Just about everything else is rebranded versions of those three.
[17:37:46] <Tempt> What are you connecting to what?
[17:37:57] <Triskelios> they're pretty inexpensive used..
[17:38:01] <flyingparchment> i want to connect a small numbers of hosts to some low-end storage
[17:38:04] <the-decider> there's qlogic.
[17:38:19] <the-decider> been pretty happy with their SanBox line.  Pretty simple, but haven't had a lick of trouble.
[17:38:20] <elektronkind> Brocade and McDATA are one in the same now. they merged
[17:38:32] <the-decider> elektronkind smelled storage...
[17:38:33] <nachox> Tempt: damn you read half the question :P
[17:38:34] <elektronkind> yeah, we've been happy with Qlogic
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[17:39:06] <Tempt> nachox: For some reason I first read it as "PC switch". It's 1:39am, leave me alone ;)
[17:39:24] <Pietro_S> hmm, rigth now I would need some really hot keyboard (my fingers are freezing!) :-(
[17:39:25] <the-decider> ...for your USB storage network.
[17:39:32] <wesolows> USB SAN?
[17:39:40] <Tempt> OH NOES
[17:39:50] <Tempt> Don't be suggesting that, or someone will be complaining SunCluster doesn't support it
[17:40:06] <elektronkind> flyingparchment: the Qlogic 5200/5600s are 1u 20 port switches where 16 of the ports are 2Gb (in the case of the 5200) or 4Gb (for the 5600)
[17:40:13] <wesolows> also, someone asked about FC and cheap.  hahahahahahahahahahaha
[17:40:18] <elektronkind> my USB SAN is mighty!
[17:40:26] <Tempt> wesolows: You can get FCAL toys pretty cheaply
[17:40:27] <jafari> hell folx, question how can i list open files in solaris if i dont have lsof command installed?
[17:40:33] <Tempt> wesolows: I think I paid $5/each for my Vixel hubs.
[17:40:47] <wesolows> Tempt: heh, you get gypped
[17:40:48] <elektronkind> jafari: pfiles <pid>
[17:40:49] <the-decider> OMG.
[17:41:05] <Tempt> wesolows: I only wanted them for the nice small chassis with decent cooling. I have greater missions for them.
[17:41:14] <Tempt> wesolows: (which don't involve fibre channel)
[17:41:23] <jafari> ok let me check that out
[17:41:25] <Tempt> Although paying $5 for the stack of GBICs was a fist full of win
[17:41:28] <the-decider> ...holding open doors?;)
[17:41:29] <wesolows> true
[17:41:48] <wesolows> no, his USB SAN
[17:41:55] <wesolows> try to keep up
[17:42:32] <Tempt> Oh dear.
[17:42:50] <jafari> when i man pfiles it shows me other commands are they all the same
[17:42:51] <jafari> NAME
[17:42:51] <jafari>      proc, pflags,  pcred,  pldd,  psig,  pstack,  pfiles,  pwdx,
[17:42:52] <jafari>      pstop, prun, pwait, ptime - proc tools
[17:43:12] <wesolows> jafari: no, they're just documented together
[17:43:30] <elektronkind> jafari: pfiles is, as the man page says, part of the "proc tools" ... they are a suite of programs for inspecting processes
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[17:43:36] <elektronkind> they just happen to share a common man page
[17:43:42] <Tempt> delewis: Hey, you rebooted your machine!
[17:43:55] <jafari> ok thanks for thr clafication
[17:44:20] <flyingparchment> okay, so i want to build a storage array with, say, 20-40TB space, which is easily expandable.  i'm thinking some FC JBODs and ZFS is the easiest/cheapest method.  should i look at SAS instead?  how many SAS devices can i reasonably connect to one machine?
[17:44:21] <nachox> that would be cool, an usb san where you can do multipath with all your usb ports ;)
[17:44:55] <elektronkind> nachox: that, plus USB zoning!
[17:45:06] <wesolows> flyingparchment: an interesting question indeed
[17:45:19] <the-decider> ...meanwhile, back at sealab.
[17:45:23] <Tempt> flyingparchment: That's a lot of storage. What's the load?
[17:45:24] <wesolows> flyingparchment: in theory, 1024 targets
[17:45:33] <Tempt> Archives, OLTP, streaming?
[17:45:35] <Tempt> IOPS?
[17:45:44] <Tempt> Short reads? Long sequential I/O?
[17:46:04] <flyingparchment> Tempt: large file archiving and online small/medium file storage (images/video)
[17:46:05] <wesolows> flyingparchment: in practice with currently available hardware, you can connect somewhere in the vicinity of 120 targets to a single (LSI) HBA, provided it's in initiator/target mode not integrated raid mode
[17:46:21] <Tempt> How much is the data worth?
[17:46:55] <flyingparchment> hm, hard to put a value on it.  in terms of $, nothing.  but it's fairly important.
[17:47:12] <Tempt> As in, how much crying if it was lost?
[17:47:19] <Tempt> And how much would it cost to replace?
[17:47:53] <nachox> it's be hard to explain to my boss i need a lot of $$ to protect something that has no $ value
[17:47:55] * elektronkind wonders if flyingparchment is the one who submitted that gnome.org bug report
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[17:48:15] <libkeiser> hah
[17:48:36] <flyingparchment> Tempt: a lot.. the data is the non-text media uploaded to wikipedia
[17:49:14] <elektronkind> ok, low monetary value, high intrinsic value then
[17:49:21] <Tempt> Aah, okay. Now we can look at the job.
[17:49:32] <Tempt> Didn't realise your were a wikipedia guy.
[17:49:37] <Tempt> Is that a fulltime workload?
[17:50:17] <flyingparchment> not for me, i'm only a volunteer
[17:50:44] <Tempt> Okay, so for storage like that you're looking at a fairly low write rate, so RAID5 is a reasonable option,.
[17:51:02] <wesolows> raidz2 surely
[17:51:09] <wesolows> for something that valuable
[17:51:26] <Tempt> wesolows: It's wikipedia. It's a linux shop.
[17:51:36] <wesolows> then why was he talking about zfs?
[17:51:41] <flyingparchment> we can use solaris with zfs if i can justify it's worth not using linux
[17:51:49] <wesolows> also, dogma over right setup for the job?  no way
[17:51:54] <flyingparchment> which should be possible, LVM is pretty horrid for this :)
[17:51:55] <the-decider> ...but it won't be freeeeeee!!!!
[17:51:56] <Tempt> Man, surely they'll strangle you with politics
[17:52:07] <tomww> wikipedia could also be a t2000 shop :-)
[17:52:16] <wesolows> focus, people!
[17:52:21] <Tempt> s/could also/should/
[17:52:22] <elektronkind> hmm. this is an interesting situation, flyingparchment
[17:52:43] <WickedWicky> what's interesting is the cute girl infront of me
[17:53:00] <elektronkind> I would almost say that you're looking at something more horizontally scalable.
[17:53:05] <Tempt> To be honest, getting some of XSI's storage stuff
[17:53:11] <elektronkind> perhaps, Thumpers and iSCSI
[17:53:12] <Tempt> ViperRAID or whatever they're calling it this week
[17:53:30] <Tempt> Takes SATA spindles in the front and delivers fabric out the back, and I know the box is pretty cheap
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[17:54:40] <elektronkind> flyingparchment: what about the consumers -- the stuff that's serving the data on your envisioned storage system. I'm guessing it'll be a farm of n number of web servers?
[17:54:52] <flyingparchment> elektronkind: yes, the data will be served via nfs
[17:55:23] <elektronkind> this is sounding more like what you'd see in a HPC storage setup
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[17:55:45] <wesolows> without the HP part
[17:55:48] <the-decider> ...he needs a Titan!
[17:56:03] <flyingparchment> the main issue is we have very little money to do this with, which is why i'm looking at jbod stuff now
[17:56:09] <wesolows> right, exactly
[17:56:25] <wesolows> new investment in FC and RAID controllers makes little sense today for all but the richest and most conservative shops
[17:56:29] <nachox> how much is little?
[17:56:50] <the-decider> flyingparchment: get some Apple Xraids.  They're cheap cheap cheap.
[17:56:52] * Tempt shrugs
[17:56:58] <wesolows> raidz2 with SAS JBODs is a more reasonable approach; just watch out for the target limits on current hardware
[17:57:01] <flyingparchment> nachox: i don't know exactly, but our entire budget for 2006 was about $1m
[17:57:17] <jafari> folx, im using pkg-get to install software on my current system that im upgrading all pkgs using pkg-get upgrade will it break anything in my zone instance?
[17:57:26] <Tempt> I'd happily pay $5kish for a box that houses 32 spindles and delivered RAID5 over multiple fibre channel links with battery backed write cache
[17:57:48] <nachox> Tempt: they cost that little?
[17:57:58] <Tempt> nachox: Yeah, the XSI stuff is mega-cheap
[17:57:59] <wesolows> battery backed...awesome.  and when the battery dies?  or catches fire?
[17:58:10] * wesolows shakes his head and goes back to work
[17:58:13] <nachox> you have backups
[17:58:16] <Tempt> wesolows: What happens when someone steals your thumper?
[17:58:18] <nachox> :)
[17:58:21] <Tempt> or explodes the DC?
[17:58:26] <Tempt> Or murders the entire sysadmin team?
[17:58:34] <the-decider> Tempt: that only happens with phone switches
[17:58:46] <Tempt> I mean, exploding batteries in your RAID? Get real.
[17:58:53] <Tempt> That's not exactly a reasonable risk to anticipate
[17:58:59] <wesolows> Tempt: the difference is that batteries are known to fail within a few years, and nearly all battery backed nvram controllers have terrible failure modes when they do.
[17:59:00] <tomww> 0
[17:59:00] <tomww> y0
[17:59:07] <jafari> guess not ;)
[17:59:10] <the-decider> flyingparchment: Jonathan Schartz will send you a free thumper.  Probably two if you say you're interested in NetApp :P
[17:59:15] <wesolows> also, you don't need nvram for ZFS
[17:59:26] <Tempt> wesolows: yeah, they disable write caching and send alarms
[17:59:31] <wesolows> only for hardware RAID controllers
[17:59:59] <wesolows> Tempt: right - which means you no longer are guaranteed that your synchronous writes are synchronous.  Guess what?  With ZFS instead, you just don't have that problem.
[18:00:15] <wesolows> No performance degradation, no window of failure
[18:00:18] <Tempt> How the hell did I end up being taken for having an anti-ZFS position on this
[18:00:20] <wesolows> Just Works
[18:00:21] <Tempt> christ
[18:00:24] <Tempt> The mind boggles.
[18:00:30] <nachox> the hour
[18:00:35] <elektronkind> flyingparchment: one thing you might want to consider are Thumpers (x4500s) which are serving Solaris+pNFS, or Linux+Lustre. With Solaris+pNFS, you can back the NFS shares on ZFS. With Linux+Lustre, you're looking at LVM+xfs or ext3 (gack)... anyhow, you will be able to horizontally scale that sort of setup as Wikipedia's media library grows and is accessed more offten (an inevitibility, I would assume)
[18:00:36] <wesolows> The whole point of ZFS is that it eliminates the need for all that expensive hardware
[18:00:50] <Tempt> wesolows: You watch it or I'll post my ZFS vs. UFS benchmarks
[18:01:05] <nachox> please do :)
[18:01:08] <holcomb> seperate zils on battery backed ram sure do improve performance though
[18:01:09] <wesolows> Why use ZFS if you're still going to spend a lot of money on FC GBICs and hardware RAID controllers with batteries?
[18:01:12] <elektronkind> flyingparchment: there are a few other options to consider, too
[18:01:23] <Tempt> ease of management
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[18:01:32] <nachox> double redundancy, of course
[18:01:36] <Tempt> I use zfs at work to deliver storage to zones
[18:01:40] <Tempt> why? ease of management
[18:01:56] <Tempt> The storage is all on NSC55s, but nothing beats just slopping another LUN into the zpool
[18:02:03] <Tempt> (they don't need performance anyway)
[18:02:18] <libkeiser> um, FC's advantages are completely orthogonal to the fact that most people use hardware raid targets
[18:02:19] <wesolows> Well, I guess every real upheaval in thinking takes time.
[18:02:21] <libkeiser> i don't see where this argument is going
[18:02:37] <wesolows> We'll talk again in a year, 2 years, and so on.
[18:02:45] <elektronkind> flyingparchment: with the pNFS/Lustre aspect, you can split your media across several chassis to bear the load, and yet present a unified name space to the consumers (your web servers, which would be running a pNFS or Lustre client)
[18:02:54] <wesolows> FC is walking dead, as are hardware RAID controllers.
[18:03:00] <wesolows> Niche products at best in the long run.
[18:03:05] <Tempt> wesolows: Hey, SAN traditions aren't going to evaporate because you say so.
[18:03:15] <wesolows> No, they'll evaporate because of economics.
[18:03:20] <the-decider> ATA over ethernet is the future.
[18:03:23] * Tempt laughs like a maniac
[18:03:23] <wesolows> The same driving force for all change.
[18:03:26] <Tempt> No, really, try again.
[18:03:27] * holcomb shudders
[18:03:46] <Tempt> If economics had anything to do with it, EMC would have ceased trading years ago.
[18:03:47] <the-decider> ok -- its not -- just checking everyone's sense of humor.
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[18:04:17] <holcomb> if there is a hell, i'm sure its storage is on aoe
[18:04:40] <wesolows> I don't have to "try again" because I'm not the one "making" the change.  You will be, and flyingparchment, and elektronkind, and everyone else who's spent 5x more than necessary for storage for the past decade when you wake up and realise that there's a better way to do it at a much lower cost.  Or your bosses will, when they realise it and replace you.
[18:04:58] <Tempt> oh yeah
[18:05:03] <Tempt> gimmeh my sata spindles and iSCSI
[18:05:08] <Tempt> that'll just replace everything.
[18:06:16] <wesolows> You may not care how much something costs, but I can assure you that your company's shareholders do.
[18:06:30] <wesolows> At the end of the day, that's what matters.
[18:06:41] <Tempt> What shareholders? I work for the government.
[18:06:51] <bda> He's got you there.
[18:07:03] <wesolows> True.
[18:07:15] <wesolows> And most people are stupid enough not to care what the government spends.
[18:07:18] <Tempt> But seriously, what replaces SANs for large storage?
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[18:07:28] <Tempt> Racks full of thumpers and iSCSI targets?
[18:07:29] * WickedWicky wants an EVA8000
[18:07:37] <libkeiser> yeah, that's a really manageable replacement
[18:07:40] <Stric> Tempt: usb hubs and flash sticks
[18:07:44] <wesolows> Surely something more manageable than that.
[18:07:49] <Tempt> Like what?
[18:07:52] <WickedWicky> libkeiser: no, but still I want it.
[18:07:56] <WickedWicky> I also want a ferarri
[18:07:59] <elektronkind> with a large scale iSCSI installation, there still is a SAN... only its ethernet instead of FC.
[18:08:12] <Tempt> I've worked with EVAs before, they're great. Except for the "SAN Management Appliance"
[18:08:15] <elektronkind> large scale iSCSI pretty much would demand its own infrastructure
[18:08:28] <wesolows> It's not for me to say what might fill that need.
[18:08:29] <libkeiser> and, then you get to put all your eggs in one basket, and pray like hell your network guys never disrupt their ethernet topology
[18:08:35] <elektronkind> mainly to isolate it for reliability reasons.
[18:08:37] <Tempt> Yes, it does, and running 10 gig ethernet isn't cheaper than running a fabric infrastructure
[18:09:09] <wesolows> Tempt: Not with SX/LX, no.  With 10000baseT, yes.
[18:09:26] <jafari> is this something to worry about http://pastebin.com/d5ffc3cbd
[18:09:31] <Tempt> wesolows: So you're telling us that we're morons for supporting/using/endorsing/recommending any SAN infrastructure, but you don't have an alternative?
[18:09:38] <Tempt> wesolows: How ultimately helpful.
[18:10:06] <wesolows> He doesn't need 8 racks full of Thumpers (or something similar)
[18:10:10] <wesolows> He needs 20-40TB
[18:10:13] <elektronkind> now, take that dedicated ethernet switching for iSCSI in mind, and then the only thing you're really saving money on is not having to buy FC HBAs... you're almost back where you started from and at a lower speed. Not to mention, it's completely negated if you invest in iSCSI HBAs for TCP offload.
[18:10:14] <wesolows> be reasonable.
[18:10:23] <Tempt> and don't tell me the solution involves anything fishy
[18:10:33] <elektronkind> you now have a SAN, just like a FC SAN, but with ethernet.
[18:10:36] <Tempt> yep
[18:10:49] <elektronkind> effectively back to square 1
[18:10:50] <Tempt> And then some fuckstick decides to run something else on the same ethernet
[18:10:51] <Tempt> and you're doomed
[18:11:00] <Tempt> With your neptune cards that cost more than HBAs
[18:11:05] <wesolows> elektronkind: FC HBAs ... and RAID controllers
[18:11:11] <Tempt> and your fancy 10gig switches that cost more than brocades
[18:11:20] <libkeiser> and now you're dealing with a protocol stack that uses TCP...cuz that a really smart fucking fit for block oriented transfers
[18:11:29] <libkeiser> hooray for head of line blocking
[18:11:32] <wesolows> never mind...you're all so backward-looking that this is pointless
[18:11:47] <Tempt> Don't cry "pointless" and "backward-looking"
[18:11:50] <Tempt> offer up some fresh ideas
[18:11:53] <elektronkind> oh come on guys
[18:11:54] <wesolows> I have
[18:12:10] <wesolows> and in fact you haven't even said why they're "wrong"
[18:12:10] <Tempt> It's all very well to piss on things, but there's no solution here.
[18:12:28] <wesolows> all you've done is suggest the same tired, expensive stuff that he probably can't afford
[18:12:43] <libkeiser> single machine ZFS pools are not a valid answer to the distributed storage management problem.  it's an excellent piece of innovation, but it's not going to make SANs go away overnight.
[18:12:46] <elektronkind> I'm no fan of RAID controllers, that's for sure. FC, however, doesn't neccesarily imply them .
[18:13:50] <wesolows> elektronkind: The number of FC enclosures without RAID controllers is very small.  I've seen an FC JBOD, once.  But what's that buy you over any other JBOD?  And if it's really a JBOD, you're not putting SATA disks in it because then you'll need some kind of controller with some fairly heavy smarts in it to do FC <--> SATA.
[18:14:23] <wesolows> So now you've got an FC JBOD, which is probably, what, $2k?  Pretty cheap, really.  But you have to put FC disks in it, which are NOT cheap.  And you have to buy HBAs.
[18:14:28] <elektronkind> that's a vendor marketting choice. It would be great if Sun brought back the A5200 but in SAS/SATA form.
[18:14:31] <wesolows> Which are slower than SAS on a per-slot basis.
[18:14:39] <wesolows> And cost more.
[18:15:57] <wesolows> It would also be great if disk drive vendors priced disks without regard for the interface electronics.
[18:16:00] <wesolows> But they don't.
[18:16:12] <elektronkind> one other thing that would be great is if the JBOD version of the 6140 (and 3511) were allowed to be FC N-Ports
[18:16:49] <elektronkind> but the vendor (LSI, Infotrend) disallowed that, because people would buy the cheaper JBOD version instead of the one with the expensive controllers
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[18:19:17] <elektronkind> it's the typical vendor disallowing what makes sense because what makes sense happens to not be a traditional cash cow, such as RAID arrays with a cheap MIPS CPU and PC133 RAM.
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[18:21:57] <elektronkind> hey libkeiser, you still around?
[18:22:02] <libkeiser> yeah, what's up?
[18:22:36] <Tempt> So we still don't have a solution here. You could get a big pile of SAS JBODs talking SAS, but that doesn't cater to 100 hosts
[18:22:41] <elektronkind> remind me again why the AFS client has troll around picking interfaces :)
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[18:23:07] <Tempt> You could front them with a pair of boxes talking NFS, but that'd require them to move their entire environment to something with a decent NFS implementation
[18:23:38] <Tempt> You could serve up iSCSI, but you're looking at a heavy investment in ethernet technology *and* it's not exactly mature.
[18:24:15] <libkeiser> elektronkind: are you referring to the code which enumerates interfaces in the kernel?  that's there so the callback rpcs can tell the fileserver all the multihomes for that client
[18:24:24] <elektronkind> to be honest, I'd look at a Thumper/Solaris/pNFS or a Thumper/Linux/Lustre setup
[18:24:32] <Tempt> I mean, I'd love to hear about a solution here, because I'm not on the payroll of the storage vendors, I'm not part of a global conspiracy to push FC.
[18:24:49] <flyingparchment> elektronkind: does pnfs require the hosts be able to access the storage directly?
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[18:26:16] <gdamore> good morning *
[18:26:52] <Tempt> Good morning.
[18:27:27] <flyingparchment> (running FC or SAS to 300 machines is not something i was planning on doing)
[18:27:37] <elektronkind> flyingparchment: pNFS, no. Think of it as a distributed NFS serving, where you have say a farm of 5 NFS servers. Each server has on it a unique set of data. Normally, your NFS clients will have to mount NFS shares on each one individually and know in some way which NFS server has the data its looking for. pNFS "melds" those NFS servers together... all the pNFS servers are serving different data, but it's accessable from one name space - ie,
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[18:28:15] <flyingparchment> elektronkind: how well do solaris and linux support it?
[18:28:25] <elektronkind> flyingparchment: well, that's the rub.
[18:29:28] <tomww> elektronkind: and  kinda redirection occours if a serving node know the data is located on another node, am I right?
[18:29:49] <elektronkind> flyingparchment: pNFS, aka NFS 4.1, is still being implemented in Solaris. It's almost there. Google "opensolaris pnfs". Linux doesn't have it, either, but in Linux land, there is something called Lustre which isn't pNFS, but provides the same functionality. Unfortunately, the Lustre server and client are Linux-specific.
[18:30:13] <Tempt> Well, that doesn't really make it an option then.
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[18:31:30] <tomww> Tempt: if there is no workaround until Linux know how to do at least the client stuff.
[18:31:40] <elektronkind> well, he can use Solaris/ZFS/pNFS if he can wait :) and I'd wager it's something worth waiting for. Failing that, I would suggest buying 3 or 4 Thumpers, putting Linux on them, and using Lustre. Of course, he won't have ZFS goodness with that, but it's still a scalable solution.
[18:31:43] <tomww> it's still NFS
[18:32:58] <elektronkind> either way, he would have a horizontally-scalable storage arch with that... which is good for those Down The Road situations :)
[18:33:26] <elektronkind> Need more storage? Buy another Thumper, add it to the pNFS/Lustre federation
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[18:33:49] <Tempt> See, I don't see Linux as a solution, I see it as a hassle. But that's my bias, I realise other people have other views.
[18:33:59] <elektronkind> clients still have one mount point and don't have to keep track of what NFS server a given piece of data is one
[18:34:02] <elektronkind> s/one/on
[18:34:09] <Tempt> Neither option lines up with my preference for reasonably open standards
[18:34:25] <Tempt> What happens when you lose a host, anyway?
[18:34:43] <nachox> pnfs is still too new, it is inviable in a multiplatform place
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[18:34:51] <elektronkind> Tempt: the files served by that host are unavailable
[18:35:02] <WickedWicky> Tempt: then the hare is fucked I reckon
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[18:36:10] <Tempt> WickedWicky: Couldn't have put that one better myself. Touche
[18:36:13] <LeftWing> WickedWicky: Proper?
[18:36:20] <WickedWicky> LeftWing: Yeah... proper
[18:36:23] <LeftWing> Oh noes.
[18:36:34] <elektronkind> flyingparchment: the setup I describe is what you would commonly see in research computing shops. Big data sets (often comprising of many small files) and the need for many compute nodes to access all of them
[18:37:02] <WickedWicky> and you'll end up having to buy a caravan for a pikey
[18:37:43] <flyingparchment> elektronkind: i'm kind of dubious about something that only supports linux.  we have had non-linux systems here in the past
[18:37:59] <flyingparchment> and sadly, there is absolutely no chance of converting the nodes to solaris :)
[18:38:34] <WickedWicky> set up a HA NFS cluster
[18:38:35] <elektronkind> well then buy Thumpers, load Linux on them, and use Lustre :)
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[18:39:24] <Tempt> Screw the caravan, give me that bloody great diamond
[18:39:44] <WickedWicky> that'll surely buy you some storage
[18:39:46] <flyingparchment> elektronkind: well lustre is linux only
[18:41:09] <Tempt> all right, enough linux talk, I'm going to bed. After stabbing some penguins. Thankyou, and goodnight.
[18:41:29] <WickedWicky> night
[18:41:42] <elektronkind> well, unless you want to go to a monolithic NFS server infrastructure (one or two NFS servers serving out gobs and gobs of data)
[18:41:56] <elektronkind> pNFS will be you multi-platform best bet
[18:42:09] <WickedWicky> pnfs exists for opensolaris, no?
[18:42:15] <WickedWicky> unless i read this wrong
[18:42:16] <WickedWicky> http://www.opensolaris.org/os/project/nfsv41/
[18:42:27] <elektronkind> yes, that's the solaris pnfs project
[18:42:34] <elektronkind> linux has one too, at umich
[18:42:35] <elektronkind> http://www.citi.umich.edu/projects/asci/pnfs/linux/
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[18:44:31] <elektronkind> if you have a large farm of clients (web servers), all of which need to be able to access the same data store, pNFS will be the way to go. Although I'm sort of unfamiliar with Wikipedia's exact setup, I think it's something that they would benefit from in terms of price and flexibility.
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[18:45:19] <the-decider> elektronkind: what about AFS...
[18:45:35] <elektronkind> heh
[18:45:47] <flyingparchment> normal NFS is working fine for us at the moment, so i'm not sure we want to change to something new and barely supported
[18:45:50] <elektronkind> oh man, all of wikipedia's media accessable via AFS cell
[18:45:54] <elektronkind> that would be neat
[18:46:07] <the-decider> Seriously...  serving static content, want the ability to be flexible with the backend storage over time...
[18:46:14] <WickedWicky> ok
[18:46:20] <WickedWicky> I am almost home, see ya all later
[18:47:36] <elektronkind> flyingparchment: because pNFS would mean you'd invest in cheaper hardware and still maintain high performance, to summarize.
[18:48:36] <elektronkind> I mean, there's several routes you can go... but I'm just fielding that one in particular since it seems to be the most flexible and doesn't require wasting money on old-guard RAID arrays.
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[18:49:29] <elektronkind> flyingparchment: do you currently have one massive NFS server for all the media?
[18:49:41] <flyingparchment> elektronkind: yes
[18:51:35] <elektronkind> if you'd like to keep it that way, you might be interested in 4-6 apple xserve RAIDs connected to a FC switch, and then to the NFS server.
[18:51:58] <elektronkind> the apple xraids are cheap and surprisingly decent (not super stellar) performers
[18:52:16] <elektronkind> I'm keeping in mind your budget limitations here :)
[18:52:28] <flyingparchment> why Xserve over JBOD?
[18:52:57] <the-decider> elektronkind: ours seem to perform much better now that nobody uses them.
[18:53:03] <elektronkind> I was suggesting them mainly for their price. Edu price on a 10TB xraid is around $10k
[18:53:28] <the-decider> well, you can run them as a jbod.  That, and Apple is generally good about replacing broken stuff when you buy Crapplecare.
[18:53:31] <elektronkind> now, you could go for a Joe's House of Storage JBOD of some sort, but who knows.
[18:53:57] <the-decider> and the apple stuff looks good in a stack of Sun X4100s.
[18:55:32] <elektronkind> Wikipedia being what it is, you might be able to find a brand-name storage vendor who is willing to partner even, which could mean free or close-to-free "donations" of hardware.
[18:56:18] <elektronkind> they get the tax write off and get to say they store wikipedia, you get your cheap but decent storage ;)
[18:57:10] <paul> blastwave question: why do the apache2 config files all end in .CSW, and have @WORD@ thingies in them
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[18:57:40] <elektronkind> sounds like search/replace tokens which weren't replaced
[18:57:55] <paul> it looks like they're meant to be pre-processed somehow, but i dont see with what (and i didn't find any docs on the pages for the apache2 packages on blastwave)
[18:58:00] <paul> elektronkind: right, but what?
[18:58:07] <paul> (what's supposed to do that)
[18:58:14] <elektronkind> perhaps the postinstall script in the package
[18:58:32] <elektronkind> that'd be my guess
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[19:07:28] <paul> elektronkind: maybe
[19:09:47] <madhatter> I am noticing activities on my floppy drive when X is starting here at my sxce. Any ideas where that might come from?
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[19:15:52] <flyingparchment> hmm, no raid6 on xserve?
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[19:24:23] <madhatter> flyingparchment: If that is a reply to me, then no
[19:28:15] <flyingparchment> no, general question
[19:31:22] <tomww> madhatter: some automounting seems to happen. maybe gnomevfs or nautilus or the (rm)volmgr is looking onto each drive...
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[19:37:12] <holcomb> someone make an effigy of live upgrade.  i wish to hug it.
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[19:40:57] <madhatter> tomww: Oh, thanks for the hint
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[19:54:51] <jafari> looks around @_@ and runs hehehehe
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[19:59:06] <paul> whose idea was it to ship CSW php5 with short-tags set to no in php.ini?
[19:59:09] <paul> arg ;)
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[20:11:39] <millhouse> is there a way to find out what iscsi node is mapped to what device?
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[20:17:06] <flyingparchment> millhouse: 'format' shows the iqn
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[20:21:14] <millhouse> flyingparchment:  I did that, but the device mapping doesn't have the iqn in it
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[20:41:15] <madhatter> Can anybody tell me where I have to register for the live update tool? I tried my accounts I have at sun.com developer.sun.com and opensolaris, but get an error for the authentification at SCN/Cacao?! The same error appears when I try to register within that live upgrate tool
[20:42:30] <quasi> madhatter: sunsolve.sun.com
[20:45:33] <madhatter> quasi: Thank you
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[20:53:36] <tomww> oh, my zfs pool version has been stone-age: Successfully upgraded 'pool' from version 3 to version 8  :-)
[20:54:53] <trygvis> \o/
[20:55:27] <tsp> how do I tell what zfs pool version I"m using?
[20:57:34] <Pietro_S> tsp: zpool upgrade -v
[20:57:56] <palowoda> zfs get version (should work too)
[20:59:31] <quasi> doesn't work here
[21:00:27] <palowoda> Old zfs?
[21:02:17] <quasi> snv_56
[21:02:45] <Pietro_S> palowoda: that gets version of zfs installed, but not in which version is your pool, but not sure with it ...
[21:03:04] <Berny> zpool upgrade
[21:03:16] <Berny> gives the version your pool is running
[21:03:28] <Berny> zpool upgrade pool does the upgrade
[21:04:26] <quasi> This system is currently running ZFS version 3. All pools are formatted using this version.
[21:05:48] <pauliukas> Do you need to take the pool offline for upgrading?
[21:05:57] <holcomb> negative
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[21:08:06] <palowoda> What the last zfs pool version changed somewhere around build 69?
[21:08:17] <palowoda> Version 8.
[21:08:53] <sommerfeld> upgrading takes a few seconds and is an online operation.
[21:11:18] <palowoda> Uggh the SDLC seems to honked up today.
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[21:22:21] <bda> Etrude is pretty crazy!
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[21:31:16] <quasi> bda: etude?
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[21:31:55] <bda> quasi: http://blogs.sun.com/dp/entry/project_etude_revealed
[21:32:08] <bda> Solaris 8 branded zones.
[21:32:35] <quasi> bda: right, etude not etrude
[21:32:44] <quasi> bda: I know what it is ;)
[21:32:51] <bda> er.
[21:32:51] <bda> ha
[21:33:07] <bda> My bad.
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[21:33:35] <quasi> actually, I could really have used etude at $previous job
[21:34:23] <leal> there is a way to know the value of a variable with dtrace?
[21:35:03] <leal> i mean, i did a disassembly of one code, and know that the problem is on line: for (i = 0; i < max; i++) {
[21:35:28] <leal> how can i know the value of "max"?
[21:35:34] <leal> mdb?
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[21:46:10] <millhouse> what does version 8 do?
[21:46:12] <millhouse> of zfs
[21:48:47] <ofu> http://www.opensolaris.org/os/community/zfs/version/8/
[21:50:26] <sommerfeld> delegated administration
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[22:07:21] <holcomb> /usr/sbin/ludelete: lulib_relocate_grub_slice: not found
[22:07:21] <holcomb> ERROR: Cannot relocate the GRUB menu in boot environment <BE1>.
[22:07:22] <holcomb> uh oh
[22:16:07] <e^ipi_> ugh... I paid tuition today
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[22:16:54] <e^ipi> it always hurts to do that
[22:17:02] <the-decider> just like when you pee.
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[23:26:37] <migi> what is the format of diff file to create new file by patch -p0 < diff   on Solaris?
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[23:28:29] <trygvis> I guess you're looking for gnu diff
[23:28:33] <trygvis> blastwave has a package for it
[23:29:11] <richlowe> it's also in /usr/bin
[23:29:12] <migi> trygvis, I know that gnu diff can do that when the first file is /dev/null
[23:29:18] <richlowe> as is gpatch
[23:29:26] <richlowe> don't use patch, use gpatch.
[23:29:43] <trygvis> doh, of course it is
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[23:30:26] <migi> richlowe, so it's impossible to do that with patch?
[23:30:35] <migi> I don't want to use gpatch
[23:30:49] <trygvis> why not?
[23:31:38] <migi> it's in a script and on Linux there is no gpatch
[23:32:04] <trygvis> aha. well, I think you'll have to script around that
[23:32:15] <migi> ok thx
[23:32:41] <e^ipi> if you employ linux-isms, expect to have to remove them when you migrate your code to a different OS
[23:37:16] <trygvis> you mean gnu-isms
[23:37:29] <trygvis> :)
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[23:39:12] <kjetilho> migi: if you want to use Solaris patch, you need to use diff -c, not diff -u
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[23:39:27] <kjetilho> RMS will thank you
[23:39:57] <kjetilho> (he absolutely hates the unified diffs, he thinks they're impossible to read.)
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[23:40:06] <migi> kjetilho, thanks will try
[23:40:36] <xico27> somenoe can i help me?
[23:40:48] <kjetilho> don't ask to ask
[23:41:11] <xico27> im spanish and speak very bag english
[23:41:14] <xico27> bad
[23:42:38] <xico27> when start solaris after the first instalation,
[23:43:08] <xico27> the sistem dont start, the monitor go to stand by
[23:43:13] <xico27> why?
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[23:48:42] <tsp> Saluton
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[23:58:01] <FBdev> xico27 /j #solaris-es
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[23:58:26] <kjetilho> FBdev: he left a long time ago
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[23:58:47] <FBdev> kjetilho sorry
[23:58:59] <kjetilho> no skin off my nose :)
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[23:59:53] <kjetilho> a quite typical newbie.  asks to ask, the question asked is poorly stated, and leaves after a minute of no response.





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