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[00:12:39] <jmcp> morning all
[00:12:50] <jbk> hey jmcp
[00:13:06] <jmcp> hi jbk
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[00:13:15] <jmcp> I'm working on the fasttrack for your libdisasm stuff
[00:13:21] <jbk> ok
[00:14:00] <WickedWicky> morning jmcp
[00:14:12] <WickedWicky> morning all
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[00:14:33] <jmcp> hi WickedWicky
[00:14:38] <jbk> i still need to make sure i've done all the correct makefile tweaks to get it to build correctly within ON (it compiles fine standalone), and there's an outstanding question on kmdb i'm hoping to get an answer to this week, so take your time :)
[00:15:07] <jmcp> righto
[00:15:24] <jbk> and my test machine is temporairly out of comission
[00:15:28] <jmcp> :(
[00:15:29] <delewis> so what's the issue with the existing libdisasm? closed?
[00:15:36] <jbk> yeah (on sparc)
[00:15:37] <WickedWicky> what? it's celebrating labour day?
[00:15:50] <delewis> wonder what the reason for that is.
[00:16:27] <lucky_luck> hello
[00:16:32] <jbk> haha no, apparently there were some issues while dclarke was gone (he's letting me use one of his systems for testing since i have no sparc boxes i can use)
[00:16:41] <jmcp> gday lucky_luck
[00:16:55] <jbk> well regardless, it should be replaced here soon
[00:17:05] <jbk> and will fix a few bugs in the process
[00:17:16] <lucky_luck> which's the first word that I need in grub installation in solaris 10 ?
[00:17:22] <lucky_luck> I've a PIV x86
[00:17:44] <lucky_luck> and kernel /platform/i86pc/multiboot -x doesn't works
[00:17:54] <jmcp> lucky_luck: you need the Solaris grub, for starters
[00:18:02] <WickedWicky> the first word would be: root
[00:18:24] <WickedWicky> or not
[00:18:26] <lucky_luck> root doesn't works
[00:18:29] <WickedWicky> wait
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[00:18:48] <jmcp> lucky_luck: you need a "root (hdx,y,z)" line, then a kernel line, then a module line
[00:18:55] <jmcp> lucky_luck: the installer should set that up for you
[00:19:01] <WickedWicky> itle Solaris Express Community Edition snv_70 X86
[00:19:01] <WickedWicky> kernel$ /platform/i86pc/kernel/$ISADIR/unix
[00:19:03] <WickedWicky> module$ /platform/i86pc/$ISADIR/boot_archive
[00:19:08] <WickedWicky> itle = Title
[00:19:28] <jmcp> WickedWicky: that's for snv post dboot
[00:19:30] <WickedWicky> title can be anything, it's not even current for me anymore, since I use onnv_72
[00:19:41] <jmcp> lucky_luck: which Solaris build are you running?
[00:20:05] <lucky_luck> Sun Solaris 10 1 06 Multilanguage Dvd x86
[00:20:17] <lucky_luck> downloaded form sun official web
[00:20:18] <delewis> 1/06. ouch. That's old.
[00:20:25] <delewis> unless you meant 11/06.
[00:20:29] <jmcp> don't you mean 11/06 ?
[00:21:23] <lucky_luck> soory
[00:21:26] <lucky_luck> sol-10-u3-ga-x86-dvd-iso-a
[00:21:29] <lucky_luck> until e
[00:21:34] <jmcp> Solaris 10 Update 3
[00:21:42] <lucky_luck> form sun offical web... 1week ago
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[00:23:44] <cmihai> Leave it to Sun to use at least 6 naming schemes per product :-)
[00:24:34] <lucky_luck> yes
[00:24:35] <Doc> Java Java!
[00:24:49] <cmihai> Java 2!
[00:24:57] <cmihai> Oh, wait, isn't any Java NOT Java 1.1 Java 2? :-)
[00:25:06] <cmihai> Or do they just call it Java 6 now? :-)
[00:25:13] <WickedWicky> pkgadd -d . JAVAhea
[00:26:14] <WickedWicky> I think they call it Java version 6
[00:26:42] <WickedWicky> Java Downloads for Solaris
[00:26:43] <WickedWicky> Recommended Version 6 Update 2
[00:26:54] <cmihai> Yeah, that makes sense.
[00:27:30] <WickedWicky> it sure makes it look more mature than 1.6
[00:27:44] <kjetilho> bonus: try mapping cc -V version information to Sun Studio version
[00:28:11] <cmihai> So.. Java is Java 1 and 1.1, Java 2 is Java 1.2, 1.3, 1.4 and 1.5 and Java 1.6 is Java 2 right?
[00:28:19] <cmihai> Erm 6
[00:28:24] <lucky_luck> anyone can help me ?
[00:28:33] <lucky_luck> y si habla castellano, mejor :)
[00:28:46] <WickedWicky> no hablo espanol, hablo portuguesa
[00:28:53] <cmihai> Try #opensolaris-es or something
[00:29:21] <lucky_luck> in opensolaris-es we're 4 users.... and nobody talk
[00:29:28] <kjetilho> I think 1.2 .. 1.4 is Java 2, and Java 1.5 and 1.6 is Java 5 and 6?
[00:29:50] <cmihai> Oh my.
[00:30:14] <WickedWicky> please hence someone is making good money making up these schemes
[00:31:40] <lucky_luck> I think, I'll install lilo and I work with slackware
[00:31:49] <tsp> lucky_luck: Cxu vi parolas Esperanton?
[00:32:04] <tsp> lol that has to work one of these days...
[00:32:06] <lucky_luck> meanwhile I'll learn solaris's 10 installation
[00:32:21] <WickedWicky> what exactly is your problem with grub
[00:32:35] <WickedWicky> did you install solaris already? cause it should set up grub for you
[00:33:07] <lucky_luck> my computer starts with solaris 10 on dvd
[00:33:19] <lucky_luck> then grub's prompt appears
[00:33:22] <WickedWicky> oh
[00:33:23] <WickedWicky> am
[00:33:30] <WickedWicky> are you using an USB-DVD?
[00:33:37] <lucky_luck> no
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[00:33:48] <lucky_luck> i think... xD
[00:34:05] <WickedWicky> is your DVD reader a USB device?
[00:34:14] <WickedWicky> it's kinda hard not to know
[00:34:15] <lucky_luck> is my first time in solaris, i'm a really newbie
[00:34:19] <WickedWicky> nao
[00:34:25] <WickedWicky> the DVD drive
[00:34:33] <WickedWicky> leiador, whatever
[00:34:49] <lucky_luck> I don't know, first of all I want to try to learn to install
[00:35:04] <lucky_luck> if I need a usb keyboard/mouse, I'll buy
[00:35:07] <WickedWicky> I am not getting trough....
[00:35:13] <lucky_luck> actually i've PS/2
[00:35:53] <tsp> lucky_luck: dvd drive - the thing you put the CD in :)
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[00:36:16] <lucky_luck> no
[00:36:26] <lucky_luck> is IDE/ATA
[00:37:20] <tsp> put the dvd in and boot, the installation should start
[00:37:35] <lucky_luck> it's ok
[00:37:40] <lucky_luck> grub's prompt appear
[00:37:48] <WickedWicky> if I get him correctly he has the problem I have when trying to boot from USB-DVD
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[00:39:01] <WickedWicky> it has to do with some call done to read the media/state of the drive which the BIOS doesnt cope with
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[00:41:14] <WickedWicky> anyway, I should lseep
[00:41:22] <WickedWicky> sleep too
[00:41:27] <WickedWicky> see ya all in some hours
[00:42:58] <tsp> lucky_luck: what does grub do after it boots?
[00:43:11] <lucky_luck> what does?
[00:43:20] <lucky_luck> nothing, this is the prompt
[00:43:26] <lucky_luck> grub>
[00:43:41] <lucky_luck> then... i can press TAB to see the comands
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[00:44:54] <lucky_luck> but I don't  to get right
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[00:45:26] <tsp> ah, no idea then :)
[00:45:36] <tsp> it should bring up a menu
[00:45:56] <lucky_luck> I'll try, but I don't konw how
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[00:53:44] <badcoder> what is the difference between indiana and nexenta ?
[00:53:53] <jmcp> one exists now, the other doesn't
[00:54:06] <jmcp> badcoder: hassle gman when he wanders in
[00:54:30] <flyingparchment> nexenta is an OS, indiana is a drama generator
[00:54:33] <badcoder> jmcp ok
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[00:55:02] <badcoder> flyingparchment i dont quite understand the drama part
[00:55:09] <cmihai> They both have uninspired names though... drafted right out of marketing / code name departments
[00:55:58] <cmihai> There must be some guy that sells stuff like this.
[00:56:10] <flyingparchment> jmcp: did you see my QFS errors earlier?
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[00:56:24] <cmihai> Codenames like rawhide, longhorn, indiana, nevada, darkstar, you know, the works :-)
[00:56:35] <badcoder> cmihai XD
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[00:56:37] <cmihai> Bastard must be making tons of money too
[00:57:18] <jmcp> flyingparchment: nope, and i doubt i canm help you, either
[00:58:51] <nrubsig> !seen stevel
[00:58:53] <Drone> stevel (stevel!n=stevel at 192 dot 18.43.225) was last seen in #opensolaris on Fri 31 Aug 2007 20:08 GMT, saying 'Animal Farm & Babe'.
[00:59:14] <badcoder> anyone has nexenta in production environment ?
[01:01:35] <cmihai> no
[01:01:45] <cmihai> Nexenta is, by default, it Alpha stages.
[01:02:12] <cmihai> There's also no support, or regular security patches. Hence, it can't be a production systems.
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[01:02:45] <cmihai> Sure, that won't stop jack from running ftpd and calling it production though :-).
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[01:02:55] <cmihai> Or doing NAT for his laptop hehe
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[01:04:42] <badcoder> my company is full of linux zealots , so the wanna marry rhel , im porting the apps to linux , but also to solaris i wanna show them zones and zfs for backups.
[01:05:15] <cmihai> It all depends on how you define production. You could define it as something that generates money, or stops you from losing money (like risk mitigation products - a firewall).
[01:05:32] <cmihai> Then you want Solaris 10.
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[01:05:35] <cmihai> End of story.
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[01:06:46] <cmihai> Hell, I could narrow down the list of production systems to "stuff that run Oracle" but that's a gross understatement :-)
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[01:08:13] <badcoder> cmihai in my work current systems runs sco unix ... , so anything would be better.as i understand scxe is free also nexenta , sol10 is also free ?
[01:08:32] <cmihai> yes...
[01:09:13] <cmihai> Eh, SCO UNIX ain't that bad. Stable, has Veritas... company is doomed though.
[01:10:25] <badcoder> i got sco unix 5.0.6 lying around with no maintenance , the hardware guy told me that he is having a hard time buying hw compatible servers for sco
[01:10:29] <vmlemon> Speaking of SCO, can any OS other than NetBSD (or their own products) run binaries from it?
[01:10:42] <badcoder> vmlemon you can with
[01:10:46] <badcoder> abi linux
[01:10:49] <delewis> vmlemon: any system that's SVID-compliant.
[01:11:06] <vmlemon> Isn't the SCO/iBCS2 stuff Linux 2.4.x only?
[01:11:17] <badcoder> nop there is 2.6.x patch
[01:11:20] <vmlemon> aah
[01:11:32] <cmihai> Linux used to run SCO stuff
[01:11:35] <badcoder> i did port the 2.6.X to last rhel kernel 4.2
[01:11:49] <delewis> anyone tried running a SCO binary on Solaris/x86?
[01:11:51] <cmihai> Hm..
[01:11:58] <flyingparchment> delewis: unixware or openserver?
[01:12:03] <delewis> flyingparchment: either.
[01:12:04] <badcoder> y have tried running mfcobol
[01:12:11] <flyingparchment> i can try unixware, gimme a few minutes
[01:12:14] <vmlemon> I got some VINES binaries to run on NetBSD
[01:12:14] <delewis> both follow the SVID specification.
[01:12:34] <delewis> and Solaris (to a degree) complies with SVID.
[01:12:48] <badcoder> im thinking on porting the sco apps to solaris then running them
[01:12:51] <badcoder> in zones
[01:12:59] <delewis> badcoder: shouldn't be too difficult.
[01:13:01] <vmlemon> That said, anyone tried a Solaris binary on SCO products?
[01:13:10] <cmihai> Hm... I expect you're in for quite a bleeding.
[01:13:13] <badcoder> yeah i got the main app running already
[01:13:17] <delewis> vmlemon: that will probably not work, given Sun's extensions to ELF.
[01:13:20] <vmlemon> I have access to both UW and OS, but I haven't tested either
[01:13:33] <cmihai> You know, move ancient Cobol applications from strange platforms (VMS/SCO/whatever) to UNIX/Oracle ;-)
[01:13:44] <badcoder> usual stuff
[01:14:53] <vmlemon> I doubt you could get SCO COFF binaries to ever run on Solaris, somehow
[01:15:01] <vmlemon> (if anyone still has any)
[01:15:30] <cmihai> Heh, you can probably get away running UnixWare 7 or something more recent on VMware if you want to mitigate / secure the stuff a bit.
[01:15:44] <cmihai> But don't expect emulation to do you any good.
[01:16:02] <badcoder> i would to do it emulate sco boxes in xen.
[01:16:09] <badcoder> seems easier to port the apps
[01:16:12] <vmlemon> Anyone know what that weird, obsolete default desktop environment on OpenServer is?
[01:16:18] <badcoder> except the damn cobol
[01:16:22] <cmihai> You're long due for an application rewrite / migration.
[01:16:25] <vmlemon> (It certainly ain't CDE)
[01:17:00] <badcoder> only the cobol is killing me , ill settle with the db and using zfs for snapshots
[01:17:06] <cmihai> It is CDE :P
[01:17:20] <flyingparchment> delewis: libc.so.1: ls: fatal: relocation error: file ls: symbol lvlin: referenced symbol not found
[01:17:25] <badcoder> rsyncing the sco boxes to the sol zfs backserver
[01:17:32] <vmlemon> The one with the giant animated icons and the permanent menubar?
[01:17:41] <delewis> flyingparchment: it got farther along than I would've thought.
[01:17:48] <flyingparchment> nope
[01:17:48] <lucky_luck> byr
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[01:17:52] <badcoder> sco has cde , osr6 has kde
[01:17:53] <delewis> it at least parsed the symbol table in the elf.
[01:17:55] <cmihai> badcoder, how many machines do you have?
[01:18:00] <flyingparchment> UnixWare daphne 5 7.1.3 i386 x86at SCO UNIX_SVR5
[01:18:01] <badcoder> 60 sco boxes
[01:18:02] <flyingparchment> SunOS figwort 5.11 snv_70 i86pc i386 i86pc
[01:18:09] <vmlemon> Just had a Google, turns out it's "XDT"
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[01:18:23] <vmlemon> *XDT3
[01:18:31] <cmihai> vmlemon, you could migrate the whole deal to a VMware infrastructure cluster with a SAN backend. You could run 20 machines easily on 2 opteron boxes
[01:18:59] <badcoder> vmware emulates sco unixes ?
[01:19:03] <vmlemon> Yes
[01:19:10] <badcoder> how much is the license
[01:19:12] <vmlemon> Hmm, I only have the OSes themselves, and not a gigantic office network with machines running them, but I have had success running both on Workstation
[01:19:16] <cmihai> badcoder, get yourself a nice HP or Sun Xeon blade server or some kind of opteron cluster with a SAN, go VMware infrastructure with HA
[01:19:17] <badcoder> for vmware
[01:19:32] <cmihai> badcoder, 15k or so, no biggie compared to the hardware.
[01:19:37] * tsp wishes he could use vmware, but vmware's audio support is horible :)
[01:19:38] <cmihai> badcoder, ot
[01:19:43] <badcoder> cmihai too much money for my company
[01:19:44] <tsp> otherwise its fine
[01:19:45] <cmihai> actually it's 5000/server
[01:19:52] <cmihai> + 5000 for VirtualCenter
[01:20:11] <vmlemon> Turns out SCO still host a free of charge copy of OpenServer on their FTP site, which is where I got mine from
[01:20:14] <vmlemon> ;)
[01:20:24] <cmihai> Good part is VMware does HA and you can migrate stuff around the cluster to keep it up 24/7 if a blade goes down
[01:20:45] <badcoder> ill settle with rsync + zfs , poors man backup solution
[01:20:52] <cmihai> badcoder, well, what kind of money are you looking at? I mean, to emulate 60 machines you'd still need some descend hardware. What are the current specs?
[01:20:54] <flyingparchment> vmlemon: does it let you install it without a license?
[01:21:00] <cmihai> OR better yet, memory usage
[01:21:10] <vmlemon> You can run it in evaluation mode
[01:21:31] <vmlemon> I think it's for about 30 days, but you don't need a license unless you're serious about using it
[01:21:38] <flyingparchment> hmm, useful
[01:21:54] <xinkeT> this looks like a sweet little home server case.. http://tinyurl.com/37g2lt
[01:21:57] <vmlemon> Same with UnixWare, but they don't have a copy on the FTP site
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[01:22:31] <badcoder> cmihai im still waiting for an answer on budget . but rsync does not seem to bad to me
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[01:22:50] <cmihai> badcoder, Well, I'
[01:22:53] <cmihai> badcoder, O
[01:22:56] <cmihai> Damn laptop keyboard
[01:23:12] <cmihai> Anyway, I'd be more worried about keeping 60 ancient power monsters around :-)
[01:23:20] <cmihai> That can fail at any time...
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[01:23:34] <badcoder> cmihai haha thats right , but the admin of those boxes
[01:23:38] <badcoder> is an asshole
[01:23:45] <cmihai> Now if you're looking to consolidate, there's only one option for you: virtualization.
[01:24:01] <cmihai> Now it's either Xen, VMware GSX or VMware ESX. That's pretty much it.
[01:24:37] <jamesd> cmihai, there is  vmware server now as well
[01:24:51] <cmihai> jamesd, actually, that's what I meant by GSX.
[01:24:58] <cmihai> The free VMware server + some Linux option.
[01:24:59] <badcoder> cmihai , xen would be the first option , now i just want to stablish a backup solution with zfs and rsync , then when it is approved move to the other phase virtualization
[01:25:10] <flyingparchment> is ESX the one that runs without an OS?
[01:25:13] <cmihai> You know, a way to avoid paying VMware for virtualization.
[01:25:20] <vmlemon> VMware Server?
[01:25:21] <cmihai> Yes
[01:25:26] <jamesd> and if you wish to include sparc, there is ldoms on the t1000/2000
[01:25:32] <cmihai> VirtualCenter + ESX = VMware Infrastructure.
[01:25:34] <vmlemon> I used to use it as a free copy of Workstation
[01:25:41] <vmlemon> although it wasn't designed for that
[01:25:48] <flyingparchment> that's what i use it for too
[01:25:51] <flyingparchment> works great
[01:25:58] <cmihai> It runs on a RHEL 3 + VMkernel
[01:26:01] <cmihai> A modified RTOS kernel.
[01:26:14] <badcoder> anyone using rhel5 ?
[01:26:50] <jamesd> my work just  approved the use of  rhel 4.. a few weeks ago...  so not i, and probably not for a long while
[01:26:57] <cmihai> PS: badcoder rsync is NOT a backup.
[01:27:00] * dlg yawn
[01:27:07] <cmihai> rsync is as much a backup as a RAID-1 mirror is.
[01:27:08] <cmihai> As in, it's not.
[01:27:13] <vmlemon> If I can get a copy of Solaris installed, I might try running SCO binaries on it, to see if it works
[01:27:13] <badcoder> rsync + zfs snapshots ?
[01:27:22] <cmihai> rsync-snapshot, rsync with snapshots and rsnapshot is though.
[01:27:30] <flyingparchment> vmlemon: a perusal of ftp.sco.com suggests they have UnixWare there too
[01:27:37] <vmlemon> Hmm, interesting
[01:27:59] <badcoder> vmlemon last time i checked sco bins dont work on sol.
[01:28:02] <vmlemon> OK
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[01:28:43] <vmlemon> I just wanted a copy of an SCO OS as a little reminder of them", before they supernova at some point ;)
[01:29:05] <cmihai> The fun part about consolidation is downtime ;-). If your virtual server goes down, 60 SCO boxes go down :-)
[01:29:21] <cmihai> That should make you popular hehe
[01:29:35] <vmlemon> Hmm, no SCO Linux ISOs on the FTP...
[01:29:38] <cmihai> Or better yet, storage fails and you need 20+ hours to restore :D
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[01:30:04] <cmihai> If I were you, I'd think up a HA architecture from the start...
[01:30:13] <cmihai> vmlemon, you mean Caldera Linux :-)
[01:30:16] <cmihai> I have the boxed set.
[01:30:25] <cmihai> Bought the thing back in '99
[01:30:28] <vmlemon> Yup, that's the one
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[01:30:38] <cmihai> With deadtree manual et' all
[01:30:46] <vmlemon> No free UnixWare on the site that I can see
[01:30:51] <cmihai> Pretty nice Linux I'll say.
[01:30:53] <vmlemon> Still looking, though
[01:31:32] <vmlemon> I heard good things about their Linux when it came out, but never used it
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[01:32:21] <vmlemon>  /pub/openserver6/600/iso/OpenServer-6.0.0-Mar2006/ gets you a copy of OpenServer 6.0.0, which is probably vintage, but still almost free SCO ;)
[01:33:12] <vmlemon> Pah, no UnixWare
[01:33:39] <badcoder> cmihai mi initial idea is to be a backupserver for the sco boxes rsync to a sol and making zfs snapshots , the virtualization stuff would come in to play if one box goes down , the dead box would be replaced for an virtualized one , in the meantime the admins revive the sco sucker
[01:33:42] <vmlemon> I think their new mobile spamming tools may be in there, though
[01:34:00] <vmlemon> "Me, Inc" or whatever the hell that thing's called
[01:34:15] <badcoder> i received a osr6 beta , comes with gnu stuff
[01:34:39] <vmlemon> Found two versions of their HipCheck thing
[01:34:46] <cmihai> Meh, they have Linux Kernel Personality ffs
[01:34:59] <cmihai> It means they run Linux 2.4 emulation, like *BSD or lxrun. Well, lxrun even  :P
[01:35:04] <badcoder> omg sco has gnutools and kde
[01:35:07] <cmihai> You know, Branded Zones mean anything? :-)
[01:35:08] <badcoder> im gonna swith
[01:35:16] <badcoder> lxrun sucks
[01:35:25] <vmlemon> Switch to the Sue Crazy Operation's product? ;)
[01:35:25] <cmihai> Hell, they even have Linux binaries of KDE. Basically it installs Caldera Linux on top of SCO UNIX.
[01:35:44] <badcoder> i downloaded some rpms from caldera linux
[01:35:51] <cmihai> badcoder, actually, Linux kernel personality works fine in SCO hehe
[01:36:06] <cmihai> It's really no different then branded zones.
[01:36:19] <badcoder> cmihai what apps do you have running with lxrun ?
[01:36:22] <vmlemon> There's a copy of Merge shipped with OS, but you need to buy a license to actually start the thing
[01:36:37] <vmlemon> Might be in UW too, but I haven't checked
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[01:37:28] <cmihai> badcoder, lxrun is a joint SCO and SUN product.
[01:37:43] <badcoder> i did read that some time ago
[01:38:13] <cmihai> lxrun lead to LKP, and basically there's a whole Caldera OpenLinux running on top of UnixWare. All the GNU stuff is Linux binary actually.
[01:38:16] <cmihai> Even KDE.
[01:38:35] <vmlemon> Didn't SCO chip in on the development of ELF at one point?
[01:38:46] <cmihai> Yep
[01:38:51] <cmihai> Hey, SCO was bought by Sun ffs.
[01:38:56] <badcoder> cmihai i prefer brandelf
[01:38:57] <vmlemon> Tarantella?
[01:39:21] <cmihai> Caldera bought SCO's rights to UNIX, the original SCO became Tarantella, Sun bought them along with Tarantella aka SSGD.
[01:39:44] <cmihai> Then Caldera renamed themselves SCO. The _original_ SCO was pretty much bought by Sun though.
[01:39:52] <cmihai> Weird huh? :-)
[01:39:59] <vmlemon> SunCO? ;)
[01:40:28] <vmlemon> To take the name literally
[01:40:33] <jamesd> about now, sun could buy SCO for about $50 plus taking on the debt.
[01:40:48] <cmihai> pretty much
[01:40:54] <badcoder> lxzones only run apps for 2.4.x kernels ? no 2.6.X ?
[01:41:00] <cmihai> vmlemon, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarantella,_Inc.
[01:41:37] <cmihai> badcoder, yes. That means just about everything not depending on kernel modules or 2.6 features.
[01:42:23] <cmihai> IT's _just_ like Linux_Compat in Free/Open/Net/DragonFlyBSD or LKP really. Only in a container. It's no different then what UNIXWare / OpenServer have. It's just secured through virtualization.
[01:42:38] <vmlemon> Am I the only one who pronounces "SCO" letter by letter?
[01:42:51] <badcoder> cmihai i know
[01:43:32] <badcoder> vmlemon i have an sco coffecup HAHA
[01:43:47] <cmihai> I have an official SCO parterner diploma.
[01:43:50] <vmlemon> Did anyone see the SCO mug toilet conversion? ;)
[01:43:51] <cmihai> Beat that :-)
[01:43:58] <badcoder> cmihai HAHA
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[01:45:11] <vmlemon> I think "sco" (emphasis on the "o") is the correct way to pronounce it, but it sounds weird, considering it's always spelt capitalised
[01:45:36] <badcoder> if it were not for the sco drivers shortage , in my work the would not even think of dropping it
[01:46:31] <cmihai> badcoder, I've had pretty good experience with it under virtualized hardware. If that's supported, that's all you need.
[01:47:47] <badcoder> cmihai im a ingnorant in the subject  can you provide some links ?
[01:48:10] <cmihai> To what?
[01:48:33] <badcoder> cmihai virtualized hw under xen or vmware ?
[01:48:54] <cmihai> VMware, qemu, VirtualPC
[01:50:44] <badcoder> cmihai have you run sco under xen ?
[01:51:28] <cmihai> no
[01:52:34] <Triskelios> yeah, but some 2.6-only distros work anyway --> <badcoder> lxzones only run apps for 2.4.x kernels ? no 2.6.X ?
[01:53:04] <badcoder> i used to play heroes of might and magic 3 under a brandzone
[01:53:33] <cmihai> badcoder, funny, I played Linux heroes 3 too :-)
[01:53:34] <vmlemon> Isn't lxrun different to the Linux Containers thing that they were working on?
[01:53:41] <g4lt-mordant> Triskelios, uhm, brandz only supports RHEL
[01:53:47] <cmihai> vmlemon, not really ;-)
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[01:53:50] <Triskelios> g4lt-mordant: I run debian etch
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[01:54:04] <vmlemon> At least in what it's made from, source code-wise
[01:54:05] <g4lt-mordant> did you do anything different?
[01:54:10] <vmlemon> (I'm assuming)
[01:54:13] <badcoder> cmihai i also played majesty
[01:54:17] <badcoder> great games
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[01:55:02] <vmlemon> Finally managed to get a version of FreeBSD with ZFS support in it, only to find that the libzfs stuff needed extra coercing to work
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[01:55:29] <Triskelios> g4lt-mordant: well, I had to put some dummy files in so the zone install script wouldn't complain
[01:55:30] <badcoder> vmlemon can you import zfs pools from another macine ?
[01:55:39] <vmlemon> I haven't tried
[01:55:42] <badcoder> cmihai i found qemu runs sco.5.0.X
[01:56:05] <g4lt-mordant> Triskelios, have you thought of writing it up for bigadmin?
[01:56:05] <vmlemon> I did have a nasty experience with ZFS and reinstalling Solaris out of neccessity
[01:56:09] <badcoder> cmihai  a qemu zone for each server ...
[01:56:26] <Triskelios> g4lt-mordant: it's written up and linked from some guy's blogs.sun.com ...
[01:56:28] <vmlemon> I couldn't access the data in the ZFS pool anymore, afterwards
[01:56:45] <Triskelios> g4lt-mordant: google etch brandz
[01:56:47] <badcoder> vmlemon what update of sol or scxe ?
[01:57:37] <cmihai> badcoder, yeah, qemu works fine, a bit slow though. And qemu zones.. that's silly.
[01:57:52] <vmlemon> Both Solaris 10, and Solaris Express (64a, if memory serves correct)
[01:57:53] <cmihai> emulation + virtualization = slow
[01:58:03] <cmihai> you're wasting megahurtz
[01:58:12] <vmlemon> Although the pool was made on Sol10
[01:58:18] <badcoder> cmihai  how slow ? im willing to make sacrifices..
[01:58:22] <Triskelios> vmlemon: did you do zpool import -f? you need to force import i it's been moved between machines (or the machine was reinstalled)
[01:58:45] <cmihai> badcoder, usually 20% native hardware speeds
[01:58:52] <cmihai> with horrible I/O slowdown.
[01:58:55] <vmlemon> Yes, I tried forcing it, but I got obscure errors that I couldn't fix, and I no longer have Solaris installed on my desktop, at the moment, anyway
[01:59:05] <vmlemon> (something to do with duplicate pool names)
[01:59:10] <cmihai> badcoder, look, if you're cheap and want to do it FREE but fast, do this:
[01:59:21] <vmlemon> Just run it directly in VMware, if you want SCO
[01:59:31] <vmlemon> It works perfectly, but you don't get tools
[01:59:36] <cmihai> badcoder, vmware.com, download vmware server, grab the free serial, grab your favourite Linux, install and just run VMware server.
[01:59:41] <vmlemon> (VMware Tools, that is)
[02:00:23] <g4lt-mordant> Triskelios, you do realize what you've done, don't you?  now I'm gonna have to do that on my craptop, and when I've done that, I'll prolly want to do it to one of my sparcs.
[02:00:30] <cmihai> Now VMware Server is the old GSX, it's free now and it's very good for a headless machine like you'd probably have. And best of all, it's 5 times faster then qemu :-)
[02:00:30] <badcoder> cmihai ... , run virtualizacion on the linux exporting zfs nfs shares from a sol ?
[02:00:37] <vmlemon> Hmm, VMware on Solaris... but it'll probably never happen
[02:00:42] <cmihai> no
[02:00:52] <cmihai> badcoder, here's the deal. You ahve 2 options for storage.
[02:00:58] <cmihai> You could go iSCSI and mount the solaris stuff..
[02:01:01] <g4lt-mordant> badcoder, that would almost be running on a sunpci
[02:01:07] <cmihai> or external storage. That's the best idea here.
[02:01:30] <cmihai> But to be honest, I did VMware + NFS ZFS + compression and it rocked.
[02:01:33] * vmlemon cringes when he hears people call QEMU virtualisation software
[02:01:38] <jamesd> if linux keeps pressuring vmware on esx it has a better chance...  esx would have a lot more features if they moved it to use a solaris kernel,  ESX + ZFS drool...
[02:01:45] <cmihai> With aggregated GbE interfaces I was pushing 200MB/s easy
[02:02:24] <Triskelios> vmlemon: vmware porting was a friend's project at sun, actually... it kinda died
[02:02:57] <vmlemon> Sounds interesting, shame nothing came of it, though
[02:03:09] <cmihai> badcoder, so yeah, if you're really cheap (no NAS, no VirtualServer, no nothing), you can do this free with VMware Server + Linux + NFS on ZFS. Turn on compression, trust me, it's faster ;-)
[02:03:22] <cmihai> Also VMware machines compress 1.5x easily.
[02:03:33] <cmihai> That's less to rsync :-)
[02:03:39] <badcoder> cmihai that would be the winner the cheap solution ..XD
[02:04:06] <cmihai> badcoder, well, I did the same here, but with VMware Infrastructure, worked fine. But I only did 8 or so machines.
[02:04:23] <cmihai> With 60.. you're going to need a few servers with plenty of RAMz
[02:04:33] <cmihai> Thing at least 20 times what you had on your SCO boxes. Got some specs?
[02:04:34] <badcoder> cmihai but that solution assumes that the 60 boxes will be only virtualzed
[02:04:57] <vmlemon> Anyone tried NetWare 5.x or 6.x on VMware? It runs slower than hell, and takes hours to install
[02:05:04] <cmihai> I know VMware does this whole memory sharing thing... like shared pages are stored only once.. you know, the kernel and all that, so that's good.
[02:05:24] <badcoder> cmihai the boxes will be working as always i was thinking in rsync and vitutalization to get a running box in no time
[02:06:05] <badcoder> to keep the virtualied one sync with the real
[02:06:24] <cmihai> At least that's what I learned at VMware indoctrination camp
[02:06:33] <cmihai> vmlemon, no, NetWare 5 and 6 run perfectly in VMware.
[02:06:45] <cmihai> vmlemon, it's just the Jaba interface that's slow as hell. On everything.
[02:06:52] <cmihai> It's all Jaba
[02:06:55] <vmlemon> Must be my crappy host hardware, then ;)
[02:06:59] <cmihai> Just install ssh after and log in with ssh, you'll be fine.
[02:07:20] <cmihai> Just give it 1GB or so
[02:07:40] <vmlemon> I couldn't get it to install from the ISO properly without giving weird errors about missing files, but it might have been to do with having too small a partition for it
[02:08:04] <vmlemon> Since it was trying to install the same files over and over again and failing
[02:08:51] <vmlemon> I'll probably end up trying it again tomorrow, knowing myself ;)
[02:10:59] <cmihai> Well, you could get NetWare 6.5
[02:11:16] <vmlemon> I have the evaluation stuff for it, that I'd got from them
[02:12:01] <cmihai> That will do great. 30 days, then you just restore the VMware snapshot ;P
[02:12:09] <vmlemon> Hah
[02:14:02] <vmlemon> VINES was fun to try and install on VMware, especially when it came to getting the BIOS settings tweaked to only show a low number of cylinders, and it still doesn't install fully after the initial phase
[02:14:36] <vmlemon> (Gets as far as setting up the UNIX Access Mode stuff, and then explodes with odd disk errors afterwards)
[02:14:37] <Tempt> VINES?"
[02:14:39] <Tempt> As in banyan?
[02:14:42] <vmlemon> yes
[02:14:45] <cmihai> OS/2 is funky
[02:14:54] <Tempt> Hmm, I need to install OS/2 on my vmware server
[02:15:08] <vmlemon> Tried it, and got nowhere on either Workstation or Server :(
[02:15:21] <vmlemon> Got it working on Bochs once, with some hammering
[02:15:31] <cmihai> Nope
[02:15:32] <Tempt> Heh. I've got a thinkpad old enough that OS/2 4.0 is an officially supported OS, so if I need OS/2 I can run it on that :)
[02:15:35] <cmihai> VirtualPC
[02:15:37] <cmihai> Works perfectly
[02:15:47] <cmihai> It was made for OS/2 after all :-)
[02:16:03] <vmlemon> I tried VirtualBox, which supposedly runs it, but it's useless
[02:16:05] <Tempt> I think the only reason I can think of for running OS/2 at home these days would be to move my BBS stuff onto it
[02:16:29] <cmihai> QNX is funky too
[02:16:34] <Tempt> QNX is great.
[02:16:46] <cmihai> Too bad they kind of killed the comunity
[02:16:49] <vmlemon> Tried NeXTSTEP or BeOS, they're devils to install on VMware
[02:16:50] <vmlemon> ?
[02:16:54] <badcoder> plan9 !!
[02:17:06] <vmlemon> Got it working with an old version, once
[02:17:17] <Tempt> There is a set of specific instructions on getting NeXTSTEP running on vmware.
[02:17:30] <cmihai> PLan 9 works on with qemu
[02:17:30] <Tempt> They work, but it'll take you a while to get there. Probably better to find an old pentium-90 ;)
[02:17:39] <delewis> if you want to run on NeXTSTEP, you're better off finding a SPARCstation 5 or 20.
[02:17:43] <Tempt> I think delewis is porting plan ..
[02:17:46] <delewis> best hardware to run NeXSTEP on, period.
[02:17:49] <Tempt> Aah, he popped into the conversation :)
[02:17:50] <vmlemon> I got it to install, but it only runs in monochrome, with no network or audio, and horrible "bouncy mouse" issues
[02:17:58] <cmihai> heh
[02:18:02] <delewis> NeXTSTEP was horribly slow on x86.
[02:18:13] <g4lt-mordant> s/on x86//
[02:18:17] <vmlemon> BeOS worked perfectly, with once version I tried
[02:18:18] <Tempt> I've got a working install of nextstep on a 9Gb spindle - perhaps I should dd a copy of it and stick a torrent up.
[02:18:21] <delewis> g4lt-mordant: works fine on SPARC.
[02:18:29] <vmlemon> Tried installing again, and same story as NS :|
[02:18:30] <g4lt-mordant> FSVO fine IIRC
[02:18:36] <vmlemon> *one
[02:18:39] <delewis> I installed NeXTSTEP 3.3. on a PII 233MHz before and it was horrible.
[02:18:53] <Tempt> Was pretty snappy on the SS5 though.
[02:18:55] <Tempt> Vroom!
[02:18:56] <delewis> it seemed much quicker on my SS5.
[02:19:06] <Tempt> You can have that annoying beachball on your SPARCstation as well as your Mac.
[02:19:41] <vmlemon> I got BeOS running on an old Dell I found once, in colour, but without networking (no driver for the 3Com NIC, which I later extracted from the said Dell to run on my desktop machine)
[02:20:06] <delewis> best hardware to run BeOS on is a Powermac from 1996 or 1997.
[02:20:21] <cmihai> I can't believe I'm out of funky systems left to try ;-(
[02:20:26] <delewis> I had a Power Computing system from 1996 or so a 604e that ran BeOS wonderfully.
[02:20:27] <vmlemon> I found Linux on PowerPC Macintoshes was a no-go for me :(
[02:20:44] <vmlemon> Tried various Performas, and various iMacs, to no avail
[02:20:57] <delewis> vmlemon: too early, and too late. :-)
[02:21:11] <vmlemon> Got Ubuntu to boot and crash on an old iMac that I had lying around the house
[02:21:34] <vmlemon> Had LinuxPPC, and never got anywhere, and even tried mkLinux
[02:21:42] * delewis prefers POWER to Apple PowerPC gunk.
[02:21:45] <cmihai> When you've tried something called unununium you know you've hit rock bottom :-)
[02:21:49] <vmlemon> Tried it
[02:22:05] <badcoder> what the hell is unununium ?
[02:22:12] <vmlemon> Some weird Python based OS
[02:22:25] <badcoder> vmlemon hahah os junkies
[02:22:30] <vmlemon> More of a bootable implementation of it
[02:22:35] <vmlemon> I had a play with a LisaOS emulator once, which was interesting
[02:23:15] <cmihai> vmlemon, oy, you're on OS junkie too
[02:23:39] <delewis> how people can bother to use more than 2 or 3 operating systems boggles my mind.
[02:23:41] <vmlemon> Downloaded the new AIX Open Beta for kicks, but I don't have anything to run it one
[02:23:52] <delewis> I have enough trouble keep track of AIX and Solaris internals.
[02:23:52] <vmlemon> *on
[02:24:01] <delewis> s/keep/keeping/
[02:24:23] <cmihai> heh
[02:24:32] <vmlemon> I have a big collection of obscure binaries from different OSes and architectures, too ;)
[02:24:35] <Triskelios> delewis: oi
[02:24:54] <vmlemon> (about 500MB worth of the things)
[02:25:52] <vmlemon> In the middle of acquiring QNX at the moment
[02:25:55] <Tempt> Even I don't maintain an OS zoo anymore.
[02:25:56] <cmihai> delewis, well, to be fair, once you've seen the major UNIX implementation, you've pretty much seen them all. There's little to offer outside of Solaris, AIX, HP-UX, Tru64 UNIX, BSD, Linux and of course Windows, OpenVMS and zOS. There rest is just filling..
[02:26:09] <Tempt> You're missing IRIX
[02:26:22] <delewis> but IRIX doesn't have much to offer. :-)
[02:26:38] <delewis> I always found /usr/etc/ mildly entertaining.
[02:26:40] <cmihai> There's these specific RTOS or UNIX-like systems like QNX and Minix or LynxOS and such
[02:26:53] <cmihai> Tempt, no, IRIX is dead.
[02:26:55] <badcoder> anyone using nexenta cp ?
[02:27:02] <delewis> binaries in /etc are bad enough, but /usr/etc...
[02:27:03] <cmihai> Tempt, I mentioned only still living systems.
[02:27:04] <Tempt> cmihai: Still was a major player at one point
[02:27:05] <vmlemon> AmigaOS and RISC OS, anyone?
[02:27:29] <Tempt> I'd keep QNX in living pile.
[02:27:38] <vmlemon> What about VxWorks?
[02:27:43] <Tempt> I think at one point there was more QNX 'desktops' than Solaris.
[02:27:55] <cmihai> Eh, I throw it in the RTOS / embedded pile
[02:27:58] <cmihai> Along side QNX and LynxOS
[02:28:31] <vmlemon> Or Nucleus RTOS, if you can get a copy, somehow
[02:28:33] <Tempt> VxWorks .. present in ALOMs, the crappy version of Cisco's aironet APs, and ...
[02:28:34] <cmihai> Very specific stuff. Seen it on some Hitatchi storage arrays and Cisco gear (Linksys)
[02:28:37] <Tempt> stuff.
[02:28:53] <cmihai> Well, to be fair, Cisco IOS is pretty much QNX
[02:28:58] <Tempt> No.
[02:29:03] <Tempt> The *NEW* IOS is QNX
[02:29:08] <cmihai> Well, just as much as Juniper's JunOS is FreeBSD anyway.
[02:29:17] <vmlemon> Some Philips DVD+R/W set-top recorders run it
[02:29:20] <Tempt> The move to QNX is a fairly recent one.
[02:29:38] <Tempt> But QNX was used in WebTV and such set-top platforms, which gives it a pretty good 'desktop' count.
[02:29:52] <cmihai> lol
[02:30:18] <Tempt> Then we can move onto truly 'dead' platforms
[02:30:19] <Tempt> A/UX
[02:30:28] <Tempt> Dynix[/PTX]
[02:30:32] <Tempt> Sinix
[02:30:41] <Tempt> RISC/os
[02:30:46] <vmlemon> Nucleus RTOS seems to be big on mobile phones
[02:30:47] <cmihai> Ultrix
[02:30:49] <vmlemon> Domain OS?
[02:30:52] <vmlemon> Xenix?
[02:31:03] <cmihai> OSF/1 (sort of dead...)
[02:31:15] <Tempt> I tend to lump Xenix/SCO Unix/Unixware all in one smelly heap.
[02:31:18] <badcoder> dos? xd
[02:31:21] <vmlemon> VMS?
[02:31:24] <Tempt> OSF/1 meaning Tru64? Yeah, that's dead.
[02:31:35] <Tempt> VMS is still supported and has a roadmap onto Itanic.
[02:31:46] <cmihai> Well, Tru64 is still on life support
[02:31:46] <vmlemon> Classic Mac OS?
[02:31:54] <Tempt> and I pick up my Alpha on Wednesday, so anyone who wants an account should let me know.
[02:32:02] <cmihai> A few more updates and it's dead dead ;-)
[02:32:08] <Triskelios> waa IRIX =\
[02:32:27] <cmihai> I'd throw in the whole Amiga bunch too.
[02:32:39] * cmihai ducks from flaming commodores thrown my fanboys
[02:32:40] <Tempt> Linux? Is that dead yet?
[02:32:55] <vmlemon> Mac OS 8 was the best Classic version, in my eyes
[02:32:57] <Tempt> Monday morning wishful thinking.
[02:33:24] <Tempt> What about NEC Super-UX?
[02:33:49] <cmihai> GNU HURD ;-)
[02:33:55] <cmihai> Ever in zombie form.
[02:33:56] <badcoder> gnu hurd haha
[02:33:59] <vmlemon> TRON (although it's specs and not an OS itself)?
[02:34:08] <Tempt> At least Super-UX is running on a top-500 supercomputer.
[02:34:16] <badcoder> cmihai hurd is just in the making be patient
[02:34:17] <Tempt> Thinking of supercomputers, UNICOS!
[02:34:47] <badcoder> cmihai they have long release cicles
[02:34:48] <vmlemon> Symbian?
[02:34:50] <Tempt> Actually, I wouldn't be surprised if the GPL2/3 debate with the linux kernel invigorates the HURD development a little
[02:34:59] <Tempt> Symbian's nice.
[02:35:03] <cmihai> Cray stuff?
[02:35:15] <Tempt> UNICOS is Cray's UNIX, yeah.
[02:35:25] <vmlemon> PalmOS?
[02:35:38] <vmlemon> although that seems dead
[02:35:51] <Tempt> Someone should run a *living* computer museum
[02:36:00] <Tempt> With actually running systems instead of rusting machines
[02:36:09] <badcoder> the terminator what os ,should the the t-800 be using ?
[02:36:14] <cmihai> Haiku / SkyOS / Syllable are pretty dead along with BeOS ' far as I can tell
[02:36:19] <vmlemon> With Vista and new ATi and Intel stuff?
[02:36:36] <Tempt> Did we got the BSDs?
[02:36:37] <cmihai> Tempt, well, I tried that once :P
[02:36:38] <vmlemon> and New *nixen?
[02:36:40] <Tempt> forget?
[02:36:41] <Tempt> :)
[02:36:48] <cmihai> BSD is dying? :-)
[02:36:56] <Tempt> Oh, Theo would be so displeased.
[02:36:59] <vmlemon> Free, Open, Closed, Net, BSDi
[02:37:04] <vmlemon> Does that cover it?
[02:37:05] <cmihai> Well, MirOS is dead. AKA MirBSD :D
[02:37:07] <vmlemon> Oh, and 386
[02:37:10] <vmlemon> and Darwin
[02:37:12] <Triskelios> DragonFly...
[02:37:13] <Tempt> BSDi
[02:37:22] <badcoder> DragonFly is dead ??
[02:37:24] <Tempt> Hmm
[02:37:25] <Tempt> Altos
[02:37:32] <cmihai> They fought Theo for their rights and lost. They wanted "wtf" (an app that listed acronyms) in base :-)
[02:37:34] <vmlemon> Mach
[02:37:43] <Triskelios> badcoder: I think we're just naming current BSDs...
[02:38:06] <Triskelios> vmlemon: a lot of things came from Mach, none particularly good...
[02:38:07] <badcoder> Triskelios ok !
[02:38:16] <vmlemon> L4?
[02:38:41] <Triskelios> KeyKOS, EROS
[02:38:45] <Triskelios> hah and KeyNIX
[02:38:45] <cmihai> Hm.. DarwinOS is pretty dead. I mean, the one not in Apple. I think Apple cut them off.
[02:38:47] <vmlemon> Oberon
[02:38:53] <delewis> BSD has been dead since 1995. Where have you been?
[02:38:57] <Tempt> EROS was that ultra-secure OS, right?
[02:39:01] <cmihai> OS/360 :-)
[02:39:11] <Tempt> Multics
[02:39:13] <vmlemon> Microware OS-9/OS-9000
[02:39:14] <cmihai> BluebottleOS
[02:39:19] <Triskelios> Tempt: yeah, the lab next door to us worked on its successor
[02:39:26] <Tempt> AIX on x86 ;)
[02:39:31] <cmihai> MenuetOS, all in ASM :-)
[02:39:36] <vmlemon> AIx86? ;)
[02:39:40] <delewis> that's a different AIX than AIX :-)
[02:39:51] <cmihai> Polaris, Solaris on PowerPC!
[02:39:52] <Tempt> Therefore warranting a mention
[02:39:53] <delewis> AIX PS/2 was an entirely different codebase.
[02:40:08] <vmlemon> Molaris? MIPS Solaris port, that is
[02:40:09] <g4lt-mordant> vmlemon, os-9k nevere took off
[02:40:54] <cmihai>  NonstopOS
[02:41:00] <cmihai> Dead since HP bought Tandem :-)
[02:41:15] <vmlemon> Wouldn't that be NonStartOS, now? ;)
[02:41:21] <Tempt> Let's see, I've been paid to work on Solaris, AIX, HPUX, FreeBSD, Tru64, DUNIX, Linux, SINIX, BSDi and ... yep, that's pretty much my commercial UNIX experience.
[02:41:46] <cmihai> Oh my :-)
[02:41:53] <Tempt> Tandom boxes are great. Used to have a few clusters of 'em in one of the machinerooms and they were just the right height to use as a workbench
[02:41:54] <cmihai> Tempt, don't you mean work _with_?
[02:42:10] <cmihai> Work _on_ would seem as if you'd develop the things :-)
[02:42:44] <cmihai> Tempt, yeah, we use them to reach the fake sealing and pull cables
[02:42:54] <cmihai> They stack and cluster nicely too :-P
[02:43:26] <vmlemon> GS/OS, ProDOS and GEOS?
[02:44:05] <vmlemon> Newton OS? ;)
[02:44:14] <cmihai> CP/M :D
[02:44:23] <vmlemon> MP/M?
[02:44:26] <Tempt> Work on, as a surgeon operates on ;)
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[02:44:49] <cmihai> heh
[02:45:00] <Triskelios> cmihai: I thought HP was still selling NonStop
[02:45:16] <Tempt> The current "nonstop" is just itanic shit
[02:45:19] <Tempt> like everything HP doesx
[02:45:26] <cmihai> Tempt, you have me on DUNIX and SINIX :-)
[02:45:27] <Tempt> Honestly, they should give up and focus on printers and DL380s
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[02:45:40] <cmihai> Tempt, tried looking at what HP is selling?
[02:45:42] <Tempt> cmihai: Digital UNIX stuff hung around our Tru64 deployment on older boxes
[02:45:53] <cmihai> Their documentation is scanned garbage from 1984
[02:46:13] <Tempt> Well, with NonStop, you build the OS right and it keeps on working.
[02:46:45] <cmihai> Yeah, but that shouldn't mean you don't change the thing for 20 years
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[02:47:45] <cmihai> They were just selling NonStop for the suckers who are vendor-locked to the thing
[02:48:00] <cmihai> The idea is simple. Make an unbreakable OS run on expandable hardware.
[02:48:07] <cmihai> You'll make a fortune :D
[02:48:23] <nrubsig> cmihai: or of HA applications which should run things like a nuclear reactor
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[02:48:55] <vmlemon> How was IRIX, if anyone's used it?
[02:49:04] <cmihai> Yeah, their clients are mostly police / army / governamental agencies
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[02:49:17] <cmihai> It's either those that can't change or those that don't care
[02:49:22] <nrubsig> cmihai: some german reactors have computerr were the vendor claims that the stuff is sabotage-proof
[02:49:58] <cmihai> Bullshit :-)
[02:50:00] <cmihai> It's just in need of some serious peer review :-)
[02:50:12] <Triskelios> vmlemon: it's a fairly comfortable environment. my mailserver (of all things) still runs on it
[02:50:46] <Triskelios> vmlemon: the UI was also nice for the nineties
[02:51:32] <Triskelios> (actually it was one of the first UNIX systems I saw as a kid, even before Linux)
[02:53:12] * vmlemon has only ever used two versions of Mac OS X, ever
[02:53:38] <cmihai> Mine was UnixWare back in 1995-1997.
[02:53:44] <vmlemon> The toolchain sucks on it
[02:53:54] <vmlemon> Totally broken and outdated
[02:54:03] <vmlemon> same with Darwin
[02:54:08] <cmihai> I remember when my father upgraded to UnixWare 7.. cost him a bundle back in 97
[02:54:34] <cmihai> First time I've seen Netscape too.
[02:54:44] <vmlemon> My first contact with a UNIXesque OS was some ancient version of Red Hat
[02:55:09] <Triskelios> heh, I was touring a some labs at caltech... fancy 3D SGI logo on a bunch of login screens
[02:55:27] <vmlemon> Red Hat 8, if I remember
[02:55:28] <cmihai> Well, I did say Unix :-).
[02:55:53] <vmlemon> Kernel 2.0.x, I think
[02:55:59] <vmlemon> Very poor hardware support
[02:56:12] <Triskelios> RH8 had linux 2.2
[02:56:12] <cmihai> I also had RedHat 5 on my PC back in 1998 or so
[02:56:13] <jbk> heh
[02:56:39] <Triskelios> I didn't get a computer until '99 =P
[02:56:40] <jbk> my experiences with rhel4 on hp gl585's has led me to believe any improvements in hardware support of linux are overblown :)
[02:56:42] <vmlemon> My first contact with GNOME, and I've hated it ever since
[02:56:47] <cmihai> Or was it 6?
[02:56:50] <vmlemon> ;)
[02:56:59] <Triskelios> vmlemon: yeah, GNOME 1.x was the worst thing ever
[02:57:00] <cmihai> Nah, it was called manhattan project or something
[02:57:09] <vmlemon> Although the driver issues were to blame, mostly
[02:57:34] <vmlemon> (since I only got 8bit graphics or such on my ATI Radeon 9000 card)
[02:57:45] <cmihai> Heh, I had a friend who was a black had back in the day.
[02:57:58] <cmihai> Guy was running RedHat 6.2
[02:58:02] <cmihai> Ugly red wallpaper with a gnome foot
[02:58:14] <vmlemon> No network, USB, or anything usable
[02:58:34] <vmlemon> KDE looked better on my hardware for some odd reason
[02:58:45] <cmihai> fvwm ftw :-)
[02:58:52] <badcoder> cmihai what version of vmware is free ?
[02:58:57] <Triskelios> funny for me, everything I owned was supported in linux circa 2000
[02:59:01] <vmlemon> I'm running that on my laptop, at the moment
[02:59:06] <vmlemon> (fvwm)
[02:59:29] <vmlemon> Connected to my desktop with NX, since my monitor's broken
[02:59:34] <cmihai> badcoder, VmWARE ser ver
[02:59:55] <cmihai> badcoder, it's the old GSX, it's better then the workstation actually.
[03:00:00] <cmihai> http://www.vmware.com/products/server/
[03:00:11] <cmihai> badcoder, just enter your name and get a free serial.
[03:00:27] <cmihai> You probably want 1.0.3 Linux
[03:01:48] <badcoder> thanks cmihai
[03:01:59] <jmcp> jbk: which compiler did you use to build your libdisasm for sparc?
[03:07:26] <jbk> studio -- though not sure which version off the top of my head
[03:07:32] <jmcp> righto
[03:08:08] <jmcp> just came across a bunch of warnings with sparc/instr.c most likely because you used a c99 form of initialisers, starting on line 88
[03:08:36] <jbk> ahh the .field_name = val style?
[03:08:54] <jmcp> yeah
[03:09:12] <nrubsig> heh
[03:09:12] <jbk> ahh.. i thought other parts of ON (specifically stuff related to vfs) used something similar
[03:09:18] <jbk> though I never really looked too closely
[03:09:44] <nrubsig> Opensolaris.org fundig issues solved - we now sell Cialis&&Viatra: http://mail.opensolaris.org/pipermail/onnv-notify/2007-September/012451.html
[03:09:46] <jbk> does that present any sort of integration issues?
[03:09:59] <jmcp> it might
[03:10:09] <jbk> hmm
[03:10:15] <jmcp> I don't think it should though, as long as I can figure out which set of cflags to whack in instead
[03:11:46] <Triskelios> jbk: haven't seen the code, but can you just change them back to { val, val } without naming the fields?
[03:11:58] <jbk> well i utilize a union in there
[03:12:03] <jbk> as well
[03:12:11] <jmcp> Triskelios: yes ... but it'll get rather ugly
[03:12:16] <jbk> which i believe that's the only way to initalize them
[03:13:07] <jbk> does -xc99 get rid of the warnings?
[03:13:33] <jmcp> it will, once I've figured out how to remove the existing -xc99=%none ....
[03:13:50] <jmcp> feeling *really* dopey today - been up since 0400 - had to take rellies off to the airport
[03:14:00] <jbk> ahh... is that part of the default ON build environment?
[03:14:04] <jbk> eww
[03:14:05] <jmcp> yes
[03:14:14] <nrubsig> jbk: what ?
[03:14:15] <jmcp> in usr/src/Makefile.master
[03:14:25] <jbk> 0400 is more of a bedtime than a wakeup time :)
[03:14:44] <nrubsig> jbk: what is part of the default OS/Net environment ?
[03:14:51] <jmcp> jbk: yeah, I know
[03:14:54] * jmcp sobs quietly
[03:15:00] <jbk> nrubsig: -xc99=%none
[03:15:09] <nrubsig> jbk: bah
[03:15:24] <nrubsig> jbk: for the ksh93 makefiles we use -xc99=%all
[03:16:28] <jbk> jmcp: unfortunately, i never really looked too closely at the build environment for ON.. seems complicated
[03:16:29] <jmcp> jbk: we'll need to get some packaging changes done, too
[03:16:32] <jmcp> yeah, it is
[03:16:37] <jmcp> I dislike it
[03:16:40] <jmcp> anyway....
[03:16:41] <nrubsig> jbk: see http://src.opensolaris.org/source/xref/onnv/onnv-gate/usr/src/Makefile.ast
[03:16:57] <nrubsig>      28 # Override this top level flag so the compiler builds in its native
[03:16:58] <nrubsig>      29 # C99 mode.  This has been enabled to support the math stuff in the
[03:17:00] <nrubsig>      30 # AST tools (including ksh93).
[03:17:01] <nrubsig>      31 C99MODE= $(C99_ENABLE) -D_XOPEN_SOURCE=600 -D__EXTENSIONS__=1
[03:17:16] <jmcp> nrubsig: champion!
[03:17:38] <nrubsig> jmcp: ?!
[03:18:07] <jmcp> nrubsig: meaning that your ksh93 Makefile.ast appear to be exactly what jbk and I need
[03:18:08] <jmcp> thankyou
[03:18:25] <jbk> so it looks like perhaps ading 'C99MODE= $(C99_ENABLE)' to the makefile should do it..
[03:18:39] <jbk> i see a lot of stuff actually does that
[03:18:58] * jmcp smiles broadly
[03:18:59] <nrubsig> jbk: No.
[03:19:06] <jmcp> added it as the last line in the makefile, looks to be ok
[03:19:09] <jmcp> neat!
[03:19:13] <nrubsig> jbk: please use "C99MODE= $(C99_ENABLE) -D_XOPEN_SOURCE=600 -D__EXTENSIONS__=1"
[03:19:40] <jbk> well i'm not really doing anything that would require any of that AFAIK
[03:19:50] <nrubsig> jbk: that way you get C99 and all C99 features enabled in the headers
[03:20:48] * movement would suggest always using C99_ENABLE in new code...
[03:21:13] <nrubsig> movement: yeah
[03:21:16] <nrubsig> movement: +1
[03:21:56] <jbk> well.. i better run to the store..
[03:22:01] <jbk> brb
[03:22:13] <jmcp> opk
[03:22:15] <jmcp> ciao
[03:27:03] <moazamraja> re
[03:27:21] <moazamraja> jmcp: welcome back btw (to sun)
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[03:27:53] <jmcp> moazamraja: thankyou
[03:28:31] <Tempt> jmcp: You back on the payroll?
[03:28:36] <jmcp> Tempt: yup
[03:28:38] <jmcp> as of Saturday
[03:28:51] <Tempt> No more dee-licious contractor rates?
[03:28:55] <jmcp> correct
[03:29:03] <jmcp> much happier though
[03:29:22] <moazamraja> just don't get RIFed in a couple weeks :P
[03:29:28] <Tempt> Excellent. Still working on the same stuff?
[03:29:33] <jmcp> yeah
[03:29:46] <jmcp> moazamraja: hopefully the project(s) that I'm working on will be ok
[03:29:51] <jmcp> fairly confident about that
[03:30:08] <moazamraja> man..mexican coca-cola tastes soooo much better than US coca-cola
[03:30:14] * jmcp heads out for a bit
[03:30:15] <Tempt> Aaah
[03:30:18] <Tempt> You mean it has sugar in it?
[03:30:22] <moazamraja> yeah
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[03:30:30] <moazamraja> instead of high fructose corn syrup
[03:30:33] <Tempt> What is it with the US and the corn obsession?
[03:30:41] <moazamraja> it's cheap/subsidized
[03:30:45] <moazamraja> and it's in EVERYTHING
[03:30:54] <Tempt> And it tastes ... awful.
[03:30:57] <moazamraja> low-fat DIET yogurt...oh looks, HFCS in it!
[03:31:20] <moazamraja> then we wonder why we weigh more than the rest of the world
[03:31:39] <moazamraja> WARNING - Unable to repair the / filesystem. Run fsck
[03:31:40] <moazamraja> manually (fsck -F ufs /dev/vx/rdsk/bootdg/rootvol).
[03:31:42] <Tempt> Try grabbing a cane of sugar, twist it and then *taste* the syrup that drips out.
[03:31:51] <moazamraja> Tempt: i have :P
[03:33:12] <moazamraja> sugarcane juice is great
[03:34:00] <g4lt-mordant> Tempt, look at the US palces you can grow corn.  now look at the US places you can grow sugar cane and beets....
[03:34:45] <Doc> and look at the places in the US where they seem to be able to grow morons
[03:35:23] <g4lt-mordant> Doc, are you saying morons ought to be our biggest export?  I can get behind this
[03:35:52] * g4lt-mordant starts the ball rollong by exporting shrubya somewhere, anywhere
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[03:42:12] <Doc> the problem with exporting Morons is finding someone who's interested in buying - even if you set the price at $0
[03:42:57] <Doc> although if you do have a few to give away, start with the scientologists - they've never said no yet!
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[03:46:43] * g4lt-mordant makes shrubya convert.  may as well kill two birdss with one stone
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[03:54:19] <Tempt> I'm sure the Liberal party would subsidize immigration of morons to prop up their regime.
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[03:56:30] <g4lt-mordant> w00h00, target market in sight!
[03:57:14] <g4lt-mordant> now all w have to do is arrange a shipping terminal and start commerece
[04:01:32] <g4lt-mordant> "this order is for $BIGNUM morons, all certified to listen to a particular fat fuck and not be sullied by logic or ethical probleems with said fat fuck, to be delivered FOB $AIRPORT on $DELIVERYDATE, in return buyer agrees to transfer $PRICE to seller via pretty much any method that puts the money in seller's pocket by $DELIVERYDATE"  <- just have the liberal party fill in the bill of sale and we're golden
[04:02:27] <Tempt> Gold.
[04:02:33] <Tempt> anyway, lunchtime
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[04:14:22] <ruiner_> Hey is it ok to ask for help in here?
[04:14:43] <ruiner_> Anytime I try to compile something it says "/lib/cpp" failed sanity check
[04:14:55] <ruiner_> I think this is because I dont have the headers and packages to support C
[04:15:01] <g4lt-mordant> uhm, cpp is in /usr/ucb
[04:15:02] <ruiner_> Do I need to download developer edition?
[04:15:17] <ruiner_> its also in /lib
[04:15:36] <ruiner_> how do I tell it to use the /usr/ucb one then?
[04:16:00] <kaiwai> ruiner_: when you installed it, did you install the complete opensolaris?
[04:16:09] <ruiner_> yea but it was community edition
[04:16:13] <ruiner_> then I installed SunStudio 12
[04:16:17] <ruiner_> which I thought was the developer stuff
[04:16:17] <g4lt-mordant> actuall, use the /usr/sfw/bin one, it's newer --in fact there isn't one in /usr/ucb
[04:16:24] <g4lt-mordant> t is
[04:17:00] <ruiner_> in /usr/sfw/bin theres no cpp
[04:17:09] <ruiner_> somethings screwed up... should I just install developer edition complete?
[04:17:17] <ruiner_> I messed up by installing community edition I think
[04:17:52] <g4lt-mordant> no, you messed up a lot later than that.  how did /lib even get in your $PATH?
[04:18:08] <ruiner_> its not in my path
[04:18:36] <g4lt-mordant> first, what are you trying to compile?
[04:18:47] <ruiner_> well I tried to compile Silc, Silc Toolkit, and Bzflag
[04:18:50] <ruiner_> its all the same message
[04:19:15] <g4lt-mordant> hang on...
[04:19:17] <ruiner_> checking how to run the C preprocessor... /lib/cpp
[04:19:18] <ruiner_> configure: error: C preprocessor "/lib/cpp" fails sanity check
[04:19:18] <ruiner_> See `config.log' for more details.
[04:19:36] <ruiner_> and I checked config.log, and its a bunch of standard header files
[04:19:39] <g4lt-mordant> what the hell is the configure script thinking?!
[04:19:47] <ruiner_> cpp is in /lib/cpp
[04:19:48] <delewis> that's one fucked system.
[04:20:02] <ruiner_> k well i havent done anything to fuck it
[04:20:04] <delewis> why is /lib in your PATH?
[04:20:05] <ruiner_> i installed it
[04:20:10] <ruiner_> IT isnt in my path
[04:20:15] <ruiner_> heh
[04:20:21] <delewis> echo $PATH
[04:20:31] <ruiner_> err
[04:20:32] <ruiner_> heh
[04:20:45] <ruiner_> $ echo $PATH
[04:21:08] <ruiner_> here: OPT/CSW/BIN:/USR/BIN:/USR/OPENWIN/BIN:/USR/UCB
[04:22:05] <delewis> I can't help you if you aren't being truthful.
[04:22:10] <delewis> (a) you have fucked with your PATH
[04:22:17] <delewis> and (b) why the hell is your PATH in all caps?
[04:22:17] <ruiner_> lol
[04:22:24] <ruiner_> im telling you the output
[04:22:25] <moazamraja> Tempt: speaking of sugarcane...   http://www.flickr.com/photos/unixville/1307445937/
[04:22:40] <delewis> ruiner_: you trimmed some off, obviously.
[04:22:42] <moazamraja> wow...path in ALL CAPS
[04:22:43] <moazamraja> that's a first
[04:22:44] <ruiner_> b) because I tried to paste it
[04:22:48] <ruiner_> and the irc client said
[04:22:49] <moazamraja> since DOS days.
[04:22:57] <ruiner_> <ruiner_> $ echo $PATH
[04:22:57] <ruiner_> *** Unknown command: OPT/CSW/BIN:/USR/BIN:/USR/OPENWIN/BIN:/USR/UCB
[04:23:08] <moazamraja> ruiner_: type   .    and then paste
[04:23:13] <jamesd> thats because its started with a /
[04:23:19] <ruiner_> yes
[04:23:20] <ruiner_> Im telling him
[04:23:22] <ruiner_> thats why its in caps
[04:23:26] <moazamraja> so paste again
[04:23:32] <moazamraja> with a . in front this time.
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[04:23:39] <moazamraja> and he won't go ballistic
[04:23:42] <moazamraja> we hope.
[04:23:46] <ruiner_> ./opt/csw/bin:/usr/bin:/usr/openwin/bin:/usr/ucb
[04:24:03] <bda> /say is also useful.
[04:24:22] <ruiner_> Im just wondering if its because I didnt install developer edition
[04:24:31] <delewis> no, it's not.
[04:24:34] <ruiner_> Its a brand new box, I can just completely format/reinstall if theres a problem
[04:25:23] <delewis> do you have /usr/lib/cpp?
[04:25:39] <ruiner_> yes
[04:26:00] <ruiner_> ./lib/cpp is a link to /usr/lib/cpp
[04:26:07] <delewis> right.
[04:26:08] <ruiner_> i read the config.log and im missing headers
[04:26:14] <g4lt-mordant> okay, bzflag gets MAJOR fucksticks here.  I symlinked /usr/bin/cc to /opt/SUNWspro/bin/cc, and bzflag just happily dug for /usr/sfw/bin/gcc
[04:26:17] <delewis> did you do a full install?
[04:26:17] <ruiner_> I can dcc you the config.log
[04:26:29] <ruiner_> delewis: yea
[04:26:42] <ruiner_> g4lt: how about silc?
[04:26:45] <delewis> just pastebin the relevant lines out of config.log
[04:27:00] <delewis> g4lt-mordant: set CC, instead?
[04:27:14] <ruiner_> yea I dont have gcc, im using cc
[04:27:22] <delewis> you do have gcc.
[04:27:27] <delewis> and you don't have cc.
[04:27:32] <delewis> /usr/ucb/cc is worthless.
[04:27:36] <delewis> gcc is /usr/sfw/bin/gcc
[04:27:39] <ruiner_> i installed SunStudio
[04:27:42] <ruiner_> I have cc
[04:27:50] <ruiner_> This is community edition, no gcc
[04:27:53] <g4lt-mordant> ruiner_, cc in /opt/SUNWspro/bin/cc then
[04:27:54] <delewis> ah, well, /opt/SUNWspro/bin isn't in your path.
[04:27:58] <delewis> and neither is /usr/sfw/bin/gcc
[04:28:03] <delewis> ruiner_: bullshit. You do have gcc.
[04:28:08] <ruiner_> ok
[04:28:09] <ruiner_> where is it
[04:28:11] <g4lt-mordant> bull.  SXCE had /usr/sfw/bin/gcc
[04:28:14] <delewis>  /usr/sfw/bin
[04:28:24] <ruiner_> k
[04:28:25] <ruiner_> sorry
[04:29:46] <delewis> 'configure' probably defaulted to /usr/lib/cpp or /lib/cpp because it wouldn't find gcc in your PATH to throw it into pre-processor mode.
[04:30:10] <delewis> (/lib/cpp and /usr/lib/cpp are probably hardcoded by autoconf in the Solaris targets)
[04:30:26] <ruiner_> there is no gcc in /usr/sfw/bin
[04:30:35] <delewis> then you didn't do a full install.
[04:30:46] <delewis> reboot. Select 'Custom' instead of 'Default' and re-install.
[04:30:59] <ruiner_> Select Custom and then full install?
[04:31:04] <delewis> yes.
[04:31:08] <ruiner_> ok
[04:31:09] <ruiner_> thank you
[04:31:12] <ruiner_> sorry for any trouble I caused
[04:31:17] <ruiner_> i wasnt trying to give misinformatino
[04:31:17] <delewis> no problem.
[04:31:20] <ruiner_> im just a noob with solaris
[04:31:29] <ruiner_> thank you for all your help
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[04:32:59] <g4lt-mordant> turns out bzflag's configure honors $CPP
[04:33:18] <delewis> anything 'configure' generated by autoconf should.
[04:33:25] <delewis> s/anything/any/
[04:33:41] <delewis> CPP doesn't need to be set, though.
[04:34:10] <delewis> in his case, 'configure' wouldn't find gcc or cc to throw into preprocessor mode via -E, so it defaulted to /lib/cpp or /usr/lib/cpp (which is probably hardcoded in the autoconf Solaris target)
[04:35:07] <g4lt-mordant> bzflag's configure is just so fucking braindead that I almost believe it looks in /lib
[04:35:30] <g4lt-mordant> on a non-GNU compiler, it still looks for ldd
[04:35:51] <g4lt-mordant> sorry, ld.so
[04:38:16] <jamesd> Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any Real Programmers are around at 9 a.m., it's because they were up all night.
[04:39:34] <dlg> real programmers dont eat quiche
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[04:40:31] <holcomb> mmm quiche
[04:40:47] <holcomb> shit.  i just forgot lisp
[04:44:20] <Triskelios> impressive
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[04:47:07] <jamesd> real programmers will eat quiche if served with beer or a good german ale
[04:47:24] <jbk> i've never had quiche
[04:48:47] <Marv|LG> define real programmer
[04:49:04] <jamesd> its  a scrambled egg and bacon or spinach pie
[04:49:56] <jmcp> Marv|LG: you've never read www.jarvis.com/real_programmers.html
[04:50:09] <Marv|LG> nope
[04:50:12] <Marv|LG> reading now
[04:50:13] <jmcp> it's a fun read
[04:50:33] <kaiwai> hmm, real programmers - a bit like "real men don't each quiche' I assume
[04:50:39] <Marv|LG> ROFL
[04:50:50] <jmcp> kaiwai: exactly
[04:50:59] <Marv|LG> Don't play tennis or any other sport that requires a change of clothes.  <-- i run tris :(
[04:51:01] <kaiwai> well, I'm stuffed, I know COBOL
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[04:52:30] <jmcp> kaiwai: this is the original story of the Real Programmer:: http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/mel.html
[04:53:40] <kaiwai> the sad part, I've seen these things so many times when working in IT in the past
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[04:54:33] <kaiwai> mind you
[04:54:45] <kaiwai> forgot to mention the "I wear a suite to make myself look important" IT person
[04:54:52] <kaiwai> *suit
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[04:55:59] <kaiwai> they tend to have MCSE certs
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[04:56:33] <kaiwai> oh, and this is inaccurate: "Vending machines don't sell quiche", I've actually bought a quiche from a vending machine
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[04:59:17] <kaiwai> on a good side they didn't mention AMOS, so I guess i'm in the clear :)
[05:01:08] <kaiwai> hmm, Sun must be truly hating me for the bugs I report
[05:02:36] <Triskelios> of course, Sun hates everyone who reports bugs. those nasty people...
[05:03:09] <kaiwai> yeah, I hate having to fix up windows from all those bricks that get thrown at my house each time I lodge a bug report
[05:03:37] <delewis> I'm sure the people responsible for fixing bugs would much rather receive a bug report than watch a customer run into a bug during production.
[05:04:11] <delewis> the worst case being the customer endures the bug and doesn't report it.
[05:05:26] <kaiwai> true I guess
[05:08:04] <Tempt> delewis: Correction:
[05:08:20] <Tempt> delewis: The worst case is a customer encountering a bug and not reporting it because they figure Sun won't bother fixing it anyway.
[05:08:33] <Tempt> Although that applies more to VRTShell than Sun.
[05:08:37] <delewis> Tempt: that, or thinking it's a 'feature'
[05:08:49] <Tempt> Random panics are a feature!
[05:08:52] <delewis> *cough* usermod *cough*
[05:08:53] <Tempt> They remind me to patch my boxes!
[05:09:26] <jbk> heh.. i hate how veritas handles support
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[05:09:29] <kaiwai> Tempt: put me in that camp
[05:09:45] <Tempt> kaiwai: Oh, you've had problems with your VRTS contracts?
[05:09:54] <kaiwai> no no no
[05:10:09] <kaiwai> the "delewis: The worst case is a customer encountering a bug and not reporting it because they figure Sun won't bother fixing it anyway." camp
[05:10:30] <Tempt> Hmm
[05:10:34] <Tempt> I'm not quite there yet.
[05:10:48] <Tempt> I know if I raise a case they'll at least investigate it, even if they don't provide a fix.
[05:11:12] <Tempt> Looks like IBM have lost a pSeries sale.
[05:11:20] <Tempt> They seem to be incapable of actually closing the deal.
[05:11:28] <delewis> Tempt: pity.
[05:12:10] <jbk> i know i'm shedding a tear
[05:12:14] <Tempt> I mean, what's so hard here? I've got a quote, I have money, I want to purchase my hardware.
[05:13:31] <Tempt> You think being in the hardware business would make you want to take someone's money in return for supplying hardware.
[05:13:39] <kaiwai> hmm, it would be nice if all the *.pc's were put in one directory
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[05:27:27] <kaiwai> hmm, pSeries
[05:27:40] <kaiwai> I assume they laden it with services and crap as per usual
[05:33:17] <Tempt> 'services and crap'
[05:33:18] <Tempt> Yes.
[05:33:31] <Tempt> They deliver a large load of manure in a bag with every server purchase.
[05:34:14] <jmcp> kaiwai: which would make the "services" a shovel
[05:34:39] <kaiwai> jmcp: yeap, I had it first hand, trying to purchase some stuff from IBM
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[05:34:56] <kaiwai> getting rid of a door to door momon/jahova witness is easier
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[05:35:07] <Tempt> Heh.
[05:35:44] <jbk> i've never seen the mormons go door to door
[05:35:44] <Tempt> Most cases people buy service contracts with their hardware.
[05:35:44] <kaiwai> "no, I don't want it...I don't care, if I wanted it, I'll phone YOU...."
[05:35:44] <Tempt> Mormons tend to sell in public places, not door to door.
[05:35:44] <jbk> and i even lived near their 'holy land' for 8 years
[05:35:58] <Tempt> The JWs are just the biggest sales case for laying land mines outside your door.
[05:36:57] <kaiwai> atleast purchasing off Sun is alot more pleasent, "would you like to purchase a support contract with that", "no", "thats ok, if you do change your mind the information is available on our website"
[05:38:24] <Tempt> "You want fries with that?"
[05:38:36] <Tempt> Or, in the case of our local reseller, "you want a block of chocolate with that?"
[05:39:29] <g4lt-mordant> jbk, I doubt it.  the utah, south idaho area is primee terriroty for missionaries
[05:39:48] <jbk> well not where they're at now
[05:40:10] <jbk> but i thought they considered independence some sort of holy site
[05:40:16] <jbk> which is incredibly amusing
[05:41:06] <g4lt-mordant> not really, or more importantly, they'd send avenging angels instead of missionaries
[05:41:49] <g4lt-mordant> mormons: the only faith that desires a standing army
[05:45:31] <jmcp> Tempt: nice to see your comment on JS' blog just now
[05:45:38] <Tempt> jmcp: Which one?
[05:45:39] <Tempt> :)
[05:45:46] <jmcp> http://blogs.sun.com/jonathan/entry/better_is_always_different#comment-1188632951000
[05:45:53] <Tempt> aah, yes
[05:45:58] <Tempt> I'm drinking from that very coffee mug right now.
[05:46:04] <kaiwai> hmm, then again, its fun to corrupt JW and mormons ;)
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[05:47:12] <kaiwai> whats the story with using Java everywhere?
[05:48:10] <kaiwai> C/C++ on JVM would be an interesting sight
[05:49:28] <kaiwai> I know they're trying to raise the profile of Java and make it more 'mainstream' but they're going about it the wrong way
[05:51:40] <boyd> Tempt: pong
[05:51:55] <Tempt> ping
[05:51:56] <Tempt> ?
[05:52:16] * boyd shrugs: Sat 13:39 #opensolaris: < Tempt> boyd: PING
[05:52:16] <Tempt> When did I ping you?
[05:52:22] <Tempt> Oh, that long ago.
[05:53:14] <boyd> I'm a little unhappy that JS characterised all those who don't think java is the best tech in the world as "those whose only memory of the Java platform persists from the its awkward (and slow) beginnings).
[05:54:13] <kaiwai> hmm
[05:54:24] <kaiwai> nothing wrong with Java, it is went it is abused where things go wrong
[05:54:40] <kaiwai> java abuse is most prominant in Solaris unfortunately
[05:54:43] * boyd abuses java quite often.
[05:54:52] <boyd> Oh, I see what you mean. :)
[05:55:29] <kaiwai> its like foreplay, soon or later you eventually just want to fuck
[05:55:47] <Tempt> Not that Java would ever be a resource pig these days.
[05:55:58] <boyd> No, no... that never happens...
[05:56:00] <Tempt> Oh no, the modern java runs on a breath of fresh air and butterfly wingflaps
[05:56:30] <Tempt> In only 2Mb of RAM
[05:57:58] <kaiwai> do I detect a hint of sarcasm?
[05:58:31] <Tempt> OH NOES; never.
[05:58:38] <kaiwai> just a small dribble
[05:58:43] <Tempt> boyd: didja buy the 880?
[05:59:17] * boyd tries to remember the quote that goes something like "The most amazing accomplishment of the software industry is to neutralize the incredible performance advances made by the hardware industry"
[05:59:24] <boyd> Tempt: nope.
[05:59:30] <Tempt> 2 hours 29 mins left
[06:00:12] <boyd> Not gonna happen. Sorry.
[06:00:20] <Tempt> Aah, man.
[06:00:25] <Tempt> No class.
[06:00:29] <boyd> Heh
[06:00:37] <Tempt> You and your E250s.
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[06:01:14] <boyd> I could buy a whitebox, then take the faceplate of a SB100 in to a paint shop to get it color matched...
[06:01:30] * delewis shudders
[06:01:33] <Tempt> And it'd still be a steeeenkin' peecee
[06:01:36] <boyd> Hehe
[06:02:02] <Tempt> and delewis and I would still cackle at you, and possibly even cackle harder about your purchase of more peecee.
[06:02:08] <boyd> It's like taunting an amoeba! Stimulus -> Response
[06:02:15] * g4lt-mordant locks and loads on boyd
[06:02:24] * delewis distributes ammunition.
[06:02:29] <Tempt> Yeah, the amoeba has many arms!
[06:02:32] <boyd> Lol
[06:02:55] <Tempt> Well, I guess boyd *does* have an MCSE.
[06:03:17] * boyd points out that Sun themself sell some respectable Opteron hardware. Then ducks into his bunker.
[06:03:24] <boyd> Ouch! Low blow!
[06:03:25] <kaiwai> I hope someone does eventually get punished for smc
[06:03:38] <boyd> kaiwai: The users are punished every day
[06:03:51] <delewis> don't use SMC?
[06:03:53] <boyd> Tempt: I don't have one.. it expired..
[06:04:04] <delewis> MCSEs expire?
[06:04:23] <delewis> I thought the way ceritifications worked was that you were just certified for that version of the product.
[06:04:25] <boyd> Well, it was in NT4, which is not so much expired as "of historical interest"
[06:04:32] <delewis> right.
[06:04:57] <boyd> But I actually did have one cert expire... MCT.. which goes away if you don't keep up to date
[06:05:13] <g4lt-mordant> ah, then you're the target market why the operons have windows ready stickers
[06:05:14] <kaiwai> smc should never have existed in the first place
[06:05:29] <Tempt> What about the MCPS?
[06:05:41] <kaiwai> thats the problem, some nit witt with a java fetish whose feet should be in concrete rather than on solid ground
[06:05:42] <boyd> g4lt-mordant: Hell, no.
[06:05:44] <delewis> fun. I'm working on my CATE certifications at the moment.
[06:06:02] <delewis> hopefully, that should offset my lack of work experience.
[06:06:11] <kaiwai> CATE?
[06:06:21] <Tempt> AIX-fu.
[06:06:22] <delewis> certified aix technical expert
[06:06:38] <Tempt> Certified AIX Tyrant par Excellence.
[06:06:43] <delewis> hah. :-)
[06:06:53] <boyd> CABOFH?
[06:07:02] <Tempt> noyd: Say, when did you last teach a Tru64 course?
[06:07:03] <kaiwai> hmm, I think I'll stick to my chosen path of being a teacher
[06:07:12] <boyd> Am I noyd now?
[06:07:23] <boyd> Umm... Tru64...
[06:07:30] <Tempt> I really should stop reaching for the keyboard from this distance.
[06:07:30] <boyd> Maybe 3 years
[06:07:39] <Tempt> Heh. I pick up my ES40 on Wednesday.
[06:07:53] <flyingparchment> wasn't tru64 already dead 3 years ago?
[06:07:54] <boyd> Hehe
[06:08:13] <boyd> It depends on your definition of dead
[06:08:20] <Tempt> I'm going to pick up a replacement rack and move the old DEC monster out as well.
[06:08:47] <Tempt> If I'm going to have aesthetically pleasing hardware I might as well bring home a StorEdge rack for it.
[06:09:37] * boyd wonders how they managed to gt someone to design the E10k cabinets and not have their own gastric trace attempt to stop them.
[06:09:47] <boyd> s/trace/tract
[06:10:25] <delewis> the e10k seems to be everybody's 'favorite' system.
[06:10:48] <kaiwai> hmm, it would be nice if Sun workstations had the same finess as the old SGI ones
[06:11:25] <boyd> delewis: Bah, maybe I came to Sun HW at the wrong time...
[06:12:09] <delewis> boyd: you're about the 5th person I've come across that's a negative opinion towards the e10k.
[06:12:18] * boyd curses people who write else clauses without braces when the if clause has them
[06:12:23] <kaiwai> boyd: the old school chunky Sun mouse was pretty cool
[06:12:32] <boyd> delewis: I'm not really negative, I just think they're ugly
[06:12:57] <kaiwai> boyd: then start a show, "pimp my e10k!"
[06:13:07] <delewis> well I know of two shops that bought e10k's early on and went through processors (the defective US-II 400's).
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[06:13:22] <kaiwai> "we're going to lower it, put some big ass rims, some tail fins, pin strip body..."
[06:13:42] <delewis> and were told on several occasional by the visiting Sun FE that processor failures of that magnitude were 'normal' for such a large system.
[06:13:49] <boyd> kaiwai: I think you'd need a giant paper bag.
[06:13:52] <delewis> and then you've got the whole 'domains require licenses' issue.
[06:14:26] <kaiwai> I hate licences grrr
[06:14:31] <boyd> I'm *way* more familiar with the StarCat range and the e10k seem... dated to me.
[06:14:45] <kaiwai> some smarmy bastard coming up with new more creative ways to extract cash
[06:15:15] <delewis> I don't mind software licenses so much as I do licenses for hardware that you've paid for.
[06:15:36] <delewis> hardware that's capable of said feature, which happens to require a license to use.
[06:15:38] <Tempt> StarCat and StarKitty
[06:15:43] <jbk> delewis: so you probably weren't fond of IBM hardware 'upgrades' i take it
[06:15:52] <delewis> jbk: no, I hate CoD.
[06:16:11] <boyd> delewis: but you haven't paid for the COD hardware...
[06:16:26] <delewis> you're paying for the proc, just not the ability to use it.
[06:16:35] <kaiwai> delewis: or licence for something that should be part of the OS; SCO being the prime example of pricing itself out of the market by charging for every damn component of their OS individually
[06:16:40] <Tempt> Here kitty kitty.
[06:16:58] <Tempt> kaiwai: Man, I don't mean to be rude, but ... seriously.
[06:17:05] <kaiwai> are we going to see moggy soon?
[06:17:12] <kaiwai> felinus domesticas?
[06:17:13] <Tempt> kaiwai: Were you even in the workforce when SCO was still selling anything?
[06:17:38] <boyd> delewis: It's not like you're going in to it with your eyes closed. COD exists so that accountants can put a number in a different box. They know that and they don't care
[06:17:53] <delewis> SCO was doing that aside every UNIX vendor that was still charging for per-user licenses (there were a lot of them)
[06:18:01] <boyd> DEC
[06:18:04] <jbk> hp
[06:18:06] <boyd> (for one)
[06:18:07] <delewis> IBM
[06:18:20] <Tempt> IBM has moved to flat licensing now though.
[06:18:22] <boyd> Oracle...
[06:18:31] <boyd> Oh, no wait, they still do.
[06:18:33] <delewis> Tempt: what's funny is the per-user licensing stuff is still in AIX.
[06:18:34] <Tempt> Oracle still offer per-user.
[06:18:45] <boyd> Tempt: It was a joke.
[06:18:47] <Tempt> Can you actually crank it down?
[06:18:48] <delewis> and should you have enough users logged in simultaneously, you have to use the licensing tools to increase your per-user licenses.
[06:18:55] <boyd> Plus I got to refer to oracle as an OS vendor :)
[06:19:00] <delewis> Tempt: Oracle offers per-user and site, now.
[06:19:00] <jbk> i believe you have to pay extra for an unlimited user license of hp-ux
[06:19:03] <Tempt> boyd: Actually, it often makes sense to license Oracle per-user instead of per-CPU.
[06:19:13] <delewis> er, per-cpu, rather.
[06:19:18] <delewis> I think mostly everybody does per-cpu, nowadays.
[06:19:32] <Tempt> Oracle still have named user licenses.
[06:19:41] <delewis> sure they do.
[06:19:48] <Tempt> (and it can save some serious money)
[06:20:10] <boyd> "Once license for 'Mr Web Serverfarm'"
[06:20:20] <Tempt> jbk: Now, if only you could buy a license for HP-UX that magically made it worth using!
[06:20:41] <jbk> :)
[06:20:48] <jbk> my last employer was still using it
[06:21:01] <Tempt> So was mine.
[06:21:05] <delewis> As was mine.
[06:21:06] <Tempt> I *hated* it.
[06:21:11] <delewis> Gotta love when a vendor pushes a solution.
[06:21:15] <jbk> and supposedly, hp is paying places $$$ to companies *cough*amdocs*cough* to keep using it as their primary platform
[06:21:23] <Tempt> alcatel, man, they love their hpux.
[06:21:24] <delewis> 'You must have HP-UX even if it is the only HP-UX system in your shop.'
[06:21:33] <kaiwai> mind you, "Java Enterprise Server - with built in Cappuccino machine!" "Uses the heat from the processor to boil the water"
[06:21:34] <Tempt> Oh, AMDOCS, hahaha, that's great.
[06:21:37] <Tempt> They used to be a VMS shop.
[06:21:50] <Tempt> kaiwai: Nah, that's SGI.
[06:22:01] <jbk> or as an amdocs employee once stated: amdocs = another million dollars of crappy software
[06:22:11] <Tempt> pretty much
[06:22:39] <Tempt> AMDOCS/NewGen - Another Million Dollars of Crappy Software; the New Generation.
[06:23:35] <jbk> what's funny was you'd think my last employer after writing off a billion dollar project utilizing their software (with literally 20x the hardware, it couldn't handle 1/16th the load of the existing system) they would have learned their lesson
[06:24:10] <boyd> The wikipedia entry on Amdocs has (for no reason I can work out) an image of the branch in Haifa!?
[06:24:52] <Tempt> They're an Israeli company.
[06:25:50] <boyd> Founded  and hedquarters in Missouri according to the same page
[06:26:31] <kaiwai> hmm, 48 hours per week? thats tea doylie
[06:30:40] <kaiwai> mmm minted peas
[06:32:12] * boyd thinks kaiwai has been sniffing the markers again
[06:33:24] <kaiwai> boyd: na, just that xchat sucks badly
[06:33:35] <Tempt> then don't use it.
[06:33:38] <boyd> Ah, blaming the tools....
[06:33:41] <boyd> :)
[06:33:42] <Tempt> (obvious solutions, guys)
[06:34:06] <kaiwai> whats a good irc client?
[06:34:11] <Tempt> irssi
[06:34:26] <boyd> Works for me.
[06:34:27] <flyingparchment> ircII-EPIC
[06:35:42] <Tempt> BX if you're desperate and want the ansi art on startup.
[06:36:45] <boyd> Hey, Tempt did you ever use the mode of irssi that lets you have one window shared between channels?
[06:36:58] <Tempt> Nope.
[06:37:05] <Tempt> I like the seperate window thing.
[06:37:21] <kaiwai> boyd: its the fact that there is a massive lag between what you guys write and it actually appearing on my screen - for some reason
[06:37:23] <boyd> So do I, but I thought that for some low-traffice channels it could be handy
[06:37:30] <kaiwai> I suddenly get 20 lines coming through all at once
[06:38:10] <boyd> kaiwai: Weird. It could, of course, be a network thing. another client would help you to know that.
[06:38:11] <Tempt> boyd: Possibly, although I found it mighty irritating in BX. Try running BX as a second client?
[06:38:25] <boyd> Tempt: Havent' tried.
[06:38:34] <Tempt> a *real* client, as opposed to this new fangled gui shit. (gui IRC clients? what next? gui mail? the horror!)
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[06:38:59] <boyd> They' have GUI image viewers next!
[06:39:14] <Tempt> OH NOES
[06:39:18] <Tempt> DOES NOT WANT!
[06:39:26] <boyd> Tempt: Oh, hey, on mrxvt I got it to build on Nevada... had to fix the code though
[06:39:43] <Tempt> boyd: Oh? I already have a working build of mrxvt
[06:39:47] <boyd> (one liner)
[06:39:52] <Tempt> boyd: Why didn't you just grab PCOWtools?
[06:40:02] <boyd> Because it's like 200Meg :)
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[06:40:22] <Tempt>  64M -rw-r--r--    1 root     root          53M Sep  3 03:16 PCOWtools.tar.gz
[06:40:38] <kaiwai> :-) thank god for that, finaly got an IRC one that doesn't suck
[06:40:43] <boyd> Oh, well... what about unpacked? Anyway I couldn't write to /opt
[06:40:58] <Tempt> Yep, BitchX works.
[06:41:20] <Tempt> Aah, not being able to write to /opt would be unhappy times.
[06:41:33] <kaiwai> Tempt: they've got a new version out, 1.1a
[06:41:38] <Tempt> I'd swear I didn't have to have the code for mine, let me check the version
[06:41:52] <Tempt> s/have/hack/
[06:41:53] <boyd> Tempt: maybe a different rev
[06:41:54] <Tempt> what brain?
[06:42:03] <Tempt> mrxvt-0.5.1
[06:42:25] <boyd> Mrxvt v0.5.3
[06:42:25] * delewis despises mrxvt
[06:42:43] <Tempt> boyd: Oh, you've got the leet version ;)
[06:42:45] * boyd is just trying it for the first time
[06:42:50] <Tempt> delewis: Why?
[06:43:03] <boyd> mmm... gross bitmap font
[06:43:04] <delewis> mrxvt doesn't seem to refresh the screen until everything is written to the buffer, which makes using mrxvt with tip at 9600 attrocious.
[06:43:34] <Tempt> where's the gross bitmap font?
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[06:44:35] <boyd> On my screen...
[06:44:43] * boyd reads the manual..
[06:44:56] <boyd> Oh, nice, solaris doesn't like the manual source.
[06:45:03] <axisys> does not look like `reboot -- -r' is accepted by X4100. touch /reconfigure followed by reboot should do the trick correct?
[06:45:29] <boyd> axisys: it should.
[06:45:38] <Tempt> init 6
[06:45:59] <axisys> boyd: ok then i might have reread the boot message. thnx
[06:46:18] <Tempt> boyd: You should my uber fantastic vga bitmapped font.
[06:47:00] * boyd is one of few term users (it seems) who likes anti-aliased fonts.
[06:47:35] <axisys> i could also init 0 and then `b -r' to get the same result?
[06:47:54] <boyd> Wow... how old is the os?
[06:47:57] <Tempt> A good bitmap font beats anything else for terminal.
[06:48:23] <Tempt> note *good* bitmap font.
[06:48:24] <axisys> boyd: sol 10 x86 u3
[06:48:43] <boyd> axisys: So where are you gonna type "b -r"?
[06:49:12] <boyd> axisys: boot to grub, highlight the boot item you want, press "e"
[06:49:13] <axisys> boyd: heh.. forgot its all grub right
[06:49:26] <boyd> highlight the like with "kernel" in it, press "e"
[06:49:33] <axisys> ok
[06:49:33] <boyd> add "-r" to the end of the line
[06:49:37] <boyd> press enter
[06:49:40] <boyd> press "b"
[06:49:51] <axisys> boyd: cool
[06:49:57] * Tempt squishes some grubs
[06:50:25] * boyd loves the fact that he just found this comment in the code he's trying to work on "Is anybody willing to explain this test?"
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[06:50:58] <Tempt> hoho, still working on zsh?
[06:51:01] <boyd> yah
[06:51:19] <boyd> I'm hoping to know off the remaining generic probes this week and start on some zsh specific ones
[06:51:26] <boyd> s/know/knock
[06:51:37] <Tempt> boyd: Don't forget to post a status update
[06:51:46] <Tempt> boyd: With a bit of luck you'll be finished in time for opensolaris/mel
[06:51:57] <boyd> Maybe...
[06:52:03] <boyd> at least a prototype
[06:52:39] <kaiwai> hmm
[06:52:43] <kaiwai> thats rather strange
[06:52:58] <Tempt> Yes, zsh is rather strange.
[06:53:03] <axisys> i guess i could just modify grub w/ a new section and add -r for future reconfigure
[06:53:04] <boyd> lol
[06:53:31] <boyd> axisys: yes, but remember to keep it up to date when you do upgrades/patches. It will change at some point.
[06:53:40] <boyd> (anyone know if dboot is in u4?)
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[06:53:52] <axisys> boyd: whats dboot?
[06:54:14] <Tempt> (or just run devfsadm ...)
[06:54:35] <axisys> boyd: i could also just devfsadm followed by init 6 correct to get a reboot -- -r effect?
[06:54:36] <boyd> axisys: http://opensolaris.org/os/community/on/flag-days/pages/2007011901/
[06:54:51] * boyd has never been completely sure..
[06:54:56] <Tempt> touch /reconfigure && init 6
[06:55:11] <kaiwai> IIRC aren't they making a new sparc boot as well?
[06:55:23] <boyd> kaiwai: Yes, it's early days though
[06:55:30] <Tempt> kaiwai: Only if they want to lose some SPARC customers overnight.
[06:55:40] <boyd> Tempt: it's happening.
[06:55:44] <Tempt> I will ditch Solaris entirely when it happens
[06:55:45] <axisys> Tempt: except i didn't like the file /reconfigure is sitting there even after reboot
[06:55:50] <boyd> (not grub)
[06:55:57] <boyd> (not yet, anyway)
[06:56:00] <Tempt> axisys: It should remove it after the reconfiguration is done
[06:56:04] <kaiwai> Tempt: pardon? why would you ditch it?
[06:56:16] <Tempt> If the whole boot-archive mess comes in with SPARC I'll just ditch Solaris and move onto AIX>
[06:56:19] <axisys> Tempt: that is what I thought.. but it did not.. let me try again
[06:56:20] <boyd> Tempt: They did make
[06:56:42] <boyd> Tempt: There is a boot archive, but it's changed because of the fragility concerns.
[06:56:52] <Tempt> And at that point I will accept that SPARC is a doomed architecture and join everyone in pouring shit on Sun from a great height.
[06:57:01] <boyd> IIRC sommerfeld was quite vocal in that conversation.
[06:57:04] <axisys> Tempt: it did this time.. i might have run `reboot' instead of `init 6' at that time
[06:57:07] <Tempt> (with no concessions, no remorse, no pleasantries, no nothing)
[06:57:14] <axisys> it worked this time
[06:57:21] <kaiwai> what is the purpose of bootarchive?
[06:57:22] <axisys> the /reconfigure file is gone
[06:57:23] <axisys> cool
[06:57:38] <boyd> Tempt: There is nothing abuot a boot archive itself that is broken, its the volatile contents.
[06:58:05] <Tempt> The whole concept revolves around a machine that doesn't know how to boot itself properly.
[06:58:10] <boyd> kaiwai: we need some stuff available to start the kernel, even before the kernel drivers are loaded
[06:58:25] <Tempt> The correct move to support ZFS for booting would be to release OBP upgrades.
[06:58:30] <boyd> kaiwai: the boot archive puts that all into a single file that grub loads into ram with the kernel
[06:58:54] <Tempt> which means, for example, if you machine loses power you get to fuck around fixing the boot archive instead of having it recover nicely.
[06:59:05] <Tempt> Which is an absolute killer for lights-out facilities etc.
[06:59:48] <Tempt> The whole boot-archive mess is why I'd never put Solaris x86 in production.
[06:59:51] <boyd> Tempt: The point is that that is only a problem if you have 1) volatile files in the archive and 2) you can't just use the archive versions. They seem to have reasonably trimmed the archive fir that reason
[07:00:07] <Tempt> I mean, it's fine for a workstation or a laptop or a toy, but I wouldn't want to bet anything on it.
[07:00:10] <kaiwai> boyd: oh, is there a move to replace it something more elegant?
[07:00:13] <CIA-16> ky115808: 6553178 The tsalarm library is needed for Turgo. (fix lint)
[07:00:15] <CIA-16> xw161283: 6489674 nge driver need to support nForce3 chipset, 6497473 Nvidia MCP61 network controller should be supported
[07:00:32] <Tempt> boyd: The point is ... it shouldn't be there. There is no reason.
[07:00:35] <boyd> kaiwai: No, there is a move to replace something more elegant ( the OBP and kernel dance) with boot arechives
[07:00:43] <boyd> *but*
[07:00:57] <Tempt> boyd: There's a move to try to dumb SPARC down to x86 level.
[07:01:15] <boyd> currently the boot archive has a number of volatile (user editable) files in it and the system refuses to boot if they differ from those in the root fs
[07:01:38] <Tempt> "See, market, we *do* take x86 seriously, so seriously we've dumbed our SPARC product to the same level of stupidity so your Windows guys feel right at home."
[07:02:05] <boyd> the plan is to remove most of those files from the archive and just read from the disk, *or* for those they can't remove, just get by with the archive versions and merge in the disk versions later
[07:02:10] <Tempt> "We would have just released OBP upgrades, but we fired all our OBP guys so we could spend more money on making GNOME prettier!"
[07:02:40] <boyd> Tempt: I don't disagree, but I've given up ranting since nobody seems to care, as long as it can run JAVA apparently.
[07:02:55] <Tempt> boyd: Is that Java or JAVA?
[07:03:06] <Tempt> boyd: Because if you mean Java, that runs on AIX! ;)
[07:03:14] <kaiwai> one could say that since this is opensource one could write a superior solution :)
[07:03:33] <boyd> Tempt: It was a dig at corporate priorities
[07:03:33] <lloy0076> Shall I grab some popcorn and watch the show?
[07:03:58] <Tempt> kaiwai: Yes, you could, but you wouldn't get any support and you wouldn't be developing against a stable Solaris base.
[07:04:38] <kaiwai> with FreeBSD they don't have these issues, why not use what FreeBSd uses?
[07:05:15] <boyd> "It's open source, change it how you want" has become a synonym for "I don't care what my users want, *this* is how I'm gonna do it."
[07:05:59] <boyd> I'm guessing that the largely unmodularized FreeBSD kernel is related to the differences.
[07:06:21] * dlg wonder what you're talking about
[07:06:42] <kaiwai> aye? who are you directing your comment to dlg?
[07:06:51] <boyd> dlg: New Boot Sparc, the introduction of the boot archive on Sparc
[07:06:52] <dlg> you
[07:07:07] <dlg> cos zfs in ofw is too hard?
[07:07:07] <kaiwai> well then honey, scroll back and read the conversation
[07:07:42] <boyd> To reduce platform variance.
[07:07:58] <Tempt> dlg: They want to keep SPARC down at the peecee level
[07:08:27] <Tempt> Remember the new slogan, "commmunity over customers"
[07:08:38] <Tempt> anyway, coffee time before I start really expression my opinions.
[07:08:43] <boyd> lol
[07:08:54] <boyd> I'll have a long Macchiato, pls
[07:09:07] <dlg> i dont know how boot archives work enough to comment
[07:09:08] <Tempt> boyd: Well come up and have one up here!
[07:09:51] <LeftWing> There's nothing inherently wrong with a boot archive so long as it just contains immutable kernel drivery things.
[07:11:20] <boyd> LeftWing: And that's the plan... AIUI.. there are some other files, like /etc/path_to_inst that are in there, but the argument is that that is only added to, not changed in the normal case
[07:11:50] <boyd> And in the abnormal case (you edit it) you should know that you need to make a new archive anyway
[07:12:48] <LeftWing> As much of a dodgey hack as it is, I have bootadm update-archive in cron.  Returns pretty much instantly when there are no changes to make, and I haven't noticed any boot archive issues since. ;P
[07:13:12] <boyd> Of course, if you box goes down while it's running....
[07:13:33] <kaiwai> oh well, what ever the case, I'm sure the experts at Sun, who know alot more than I do, made the right decision
[07:13:44] <LeftWing> boyd: Well, while it's running AND there are changes to be made.
[07:14:03] <jbk> actually what would be interesting is with FEM
[07:14:16] <boyd> I suggested that in the arc thread
[07:14:22] <LeftWing> jbk: Yeah, I was thinking that the other day.  Event-driven updates rather than polling woudl be good.
[07:15:09] <boyd> I don't really see why "your archive is out of date. I won't boot" can't become "your archive is out of date, I'll update it then use it"
[07:15:26] <LeftWing> Provided less mutable files are included and appropriate failure avoidance is implemented for the ones that are, though, I don't think it should be a problem -- and it probably should have been done sooner,.
[07:15:28] <boyd> The trouble with FEM is that it's never clear when an edit has finished.
[07:15:31] <kaiwai> boyd: good question
[07:15:43] <kaiwai> sanity check of the archive each time it reboots?
[07:15:55] <kaiwai> and then update it as requierd
[07:16:24] <LeftWing> Well if you can see the real files enough to know that they're different, you should most likely just consume the real files.
[07:17:09] <boyd> e.g. When you save in vi, have you finished editing? Or are you just going to get a coffee?
[07:17:59] <LeftWing> I think the point is, though, that even if the current implementation of boot archives is a little lacklustre, boot archives in general aren't strictly and necessarily a bad thing.
[07:19:17] <boyd> LeftWing: I agree
[07:19:20] <boyd> I can see two real solutions, but nobody will like them. 1) allow no file editing for system config, only use APIs or other interfaces. That allows capture of state. 2) have /etc under revision control and use a checkin as a kind of "global save". Use the checked in head for actual operation.
[07:19:47] <boyd> 2) is of course, just a specific implementation of 1)
[07:20:03] <kaiwai> or have bugger all in the archive :)
[07:20:37] <boyd> Actually, the RCS for /etc is not a bad thing to do in general, if only for the "giant undo lever"
[07:21:06] <LeftWing> boyd: That'd be pretty neat to have.
[07:21:31] <boyd> You can do it now, except for the "commit" operation.
[07:21:44] <boyd> But you could fake it.
[07:24:04] <Tempt> Heh
[07:24:11] <Tempt> Alternatively, don't require any of that crap.
[07:25:01] <kaiwai> boyd: how come FreeBSD doesn't require all that crap?
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[07:25:23] <Tempt> How come Windows doesn't require that crap?
[07:25:32] <Tempt> How come the old Solaris boot didn't require that crap?
[07:25:42] <Tempt> How come Linux doesn't require that crap?
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[07:26:51] <jbk> well linux uses ramdisks, and linux doesn't (last i checked) allow for controlling instance numbering
[07:29:17] <LeftWing> Tempt: My understanding is the old Solaris boot required separate drivers (on x86) for the initial leg-up into protected mode.
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[07:32:04] <jbk> yes
[07:32:19] <jbk> so most drivers had to be written twice
[07:32:59] * dlg hug openbsd
[07:33:26] <LeftWing> dlg: OpenBSD = Compile required drivers into monolithic kernel image?
[07:33:33] <dlg> yes
[07:33:36] <LeftWing> Indeed.
[07:34:10] <kaiwai> FreeBSD isn't monolythic and yet is ok
[07:34:15] <LeftWing> Realistically the boot archive should primarily be serving a similar function -- collecting required kernel modules into one 'image'.
[07:34:25] <dlg> i think some drivers are included in the kernel
[07:34:30] <dlg> in the freebsd case
[07:34:34] <LeftWing> kaiwai: Erm, drivers required for boot get compiled in.
[07:34:37] <dlg> eg, disk
[07:35:03] <kaiwai> whats the rationale for what Solaris does?
[07:35:05] <jbk> but actually, i think you'll see that these issues are being brought up by the engineers
[07:35:16] <dlg> kaiwai: it probably seemed like a good idea at the time
[07:36:00] <LeftWing> Apart from the poor (and probably mostly unecessary) failure mode when included but changed files are detected, it's still not a bad idea now.
[07:36:48] <dlg> it just needs to be self complete (ie, not rely on anythign outside teh archive to run), and updates have to be atomic
[07:37:08] <LeftWing> Mmm.
[07:37:37] <jbk> zfs root might provide some interesting solution
[07:38:24] * dlg shrug
[07:38:38] <dlg> its possible to do with unix semantics
[07:38:53] <jbk> there have been some boot archive changes after b44
[07:38:58] <jbk> that are also going into u4
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[07:40:09] <Tempt> Guys
[07:40:10] <Tempt> on SPARC
[07:40:17] <Tempt> The OBP can read any file on the disk
[07:40:25] <Tempt> There isn't a magic cylinder limitation like BIOS
[07:40:30] <Tempt> hence, no *need* for a boot archive.
[07:40:42] <dlg> there's two things there
[07:40:52] <kaiwai> anyway, work calls
[07:40:55] <dlg> the fact that obp has decent disk drivers, and the fact that it groks ffs
[07:40:56] <kaiwai> see ya
[07:40:57] <dlg> or ufs
[07:41:36] <dlg> modern bioses let you read all over disks
[07:41:39] <dlg> but they dont know filesystems
[07:42:02] <dlg> anyway, i have to go for a bit
[07:42:23] <kaiwai> dlg: one could write an efi driver for zfs
[07:42:45] <kaiwai> anyway, see ya :)
[07:43:04] <Tempt> kaiwai: Oh no, you can't be supporting EFI, that isn't the lowest common whitebox denominator.
[07:43:17] <Tempt> You need to be sensitive to people's feelings.
[07:43:38] <Tempt> Sun realise that SPARC users have been mocking x86 for years, touting the inner joy of OBP's ability to avoid all the boot hassles.
[07:43:49] <Tempt> So they're getting ready to wipe that smug smile away.
[07:49:58] <jbk> well it looks like they're leaning towards only putting drivers in the archive, and anything editable is read by the bootloader
[07:51:02] <jmcp> jbk: did your kmdb mods around *printf() build ok in your tree?
[07:52:13] <jbk> jmcp: i didn't have an opportunity to try them out yet -- my test box has been unavailable
[07:52:37] <jmcp> ah, right
[07:52:48] <jbk> however, if they don't it should be pretty easy to fix -- looking at the existing code, mdb_snprintf is just a small wrapper
[07:53:02] <jmcp> yeah
[07:53:09] <jmcp> I was wondering where you used mdb_snprintf, though
[07:54:53] <jbk> well when kmdb is built, it compiles it's own copy of libdisasm, and adds '-D snprintf=mdb_snprintf' to the compile line
[07:57:01] <jbk> i'm hoping it will be reasonable to add mdb_vsnprintf since there's a mdb_snprintf
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[07:58:15] <jbk> i think the mdb changes amount to 6 additional lines
[07:58:29] <jmcp> nod
[07:58:45] <Doc> hey jmcp.. i hear you got a job!
[07:59:00] <jmcp> Doc: yup, they wanted me back
[07:59:05] <jbk> oh yeah, i saw that.. congrats
[07:59:12] <Doc> just further proof that Sun has lost the plot!
[07:59:16] <jmcp> thanks
[07:59:20] <Doc> welcome :)
[08:00:14] <CIA-16> yy150190: 6594676 e1000g should free private dips while no rx buffers are held by upper layer
[08:00:46] <jbk> i should probably decide here in the next few days if i'm gonna go to the opensolaris conference next month..
[08:01:02] <jmcp> I wish I could, but I've already got family stuff on that I've committed to
[08:01:54] <jbk> well i want to go, but my house still hasn't sold, otherwise it'd be a done deal
[08:02:42] <jbk> should have switched jobs a month earlier
[08:03:29] <Tempt> There's an OpenSolaris conference?
[08:03:38] <jmcp> yeah, 13/14 October
[08:03:43] <Tempt> Where?
[08:03:49] <jmcp> Santa Clara, iirc
[08:03:53] <Tempt> aaah
[08:03:56] <jbk> i thought it was santa cruz
[08:03:57] <Tempt> Yes, well, perhaps not ;)
[08:05:06] <jbk> somewhere in norcal :)
[08:06:36] <jbk> yeah, uc santa cruz
[08:06:45] <jmcp> ah
[08:06:48] <jmcp> a nice area, I believe
[08:06:54] <jbk> yes
[08:06:59] <jbk> at least the one time i was there
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[08:07:46] <jbk> of course that was during the bubble
[08:09:14] * jmcp re-caffeinates
[08:09:47] <jbk> probably $400 airfare + $450 hotel..
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[08:09:52] <jamil_tsm> hi
[08:11:03] <jamil_tsm> there is some user?
[08:11:10] <jamil_tsm> hi all
[08:11:26] <Tempt> No, we don't use anything.
[08:11:45] <jamil_tsm> hi Tempt
[08:12:00] <jamil_tsm> solaris 10 == opensolaris?
[08:12:08] <jbk> no
[08:12:11] <jamil_tsm> only questions?
[08:12:32] <jamil_tsm> why?
[08:12:36] <jbk> opensolaris == code
[08:12:54] <jbk> solaris 10 == distribution
[08:13:14] <jbk> think of kernel.org vs redhat, just more 'stuff'
[08:13:56] <jamil_tsm> jbk use solaris 10?
[08:14:00] <jbk> yes
[08:14:11] <jamil_tsm> where are you from?
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[08:14:27] <jbk> opensolaris comes from a later code snapshot than solaris 10
[08:14:43] <jbk> US
[08:15:08] <jamil_tsm> i working administrator a software ibm TSM
[08:15:19] <jamil_tsm> its software run in solaris 10
[08:16:03] <jamil_tsm> i'm begin with solaris for production
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[08:17:14] <jamil_tsm> we are runing actually TSM under windows 2003
[08:17:45] <jmcp> jamil_tsm: http://whacked.net/what_is_opensolaris << this explains the differences
[08:18:09] <jamil_tsm> and we are migrations server windows 2003 to solaris 10
[08:18:32] <jamil_tsm> thanks you
[08:20:41] <jamil_tsm> can i install solaris 10 in desktop, follow hardware: 1.8 ghz cpu + 40 hdd+750 mb ram?
[08:20:58] <jbk> should be able to
[08:21:07] <jmcp> that should be plenty
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[08:23:05] <jamil_tsm> in my firts installation i have much problems
[08:23:28] <jamil_tsm> can not i startx
[08:23:44] <jamil_tsm> the window manager not up
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[08:29:46] <jbk> what video card?
[08:30:26] <jbk> ok, i really need to try to get this laptop sent in for service soon...
[08:38:48] <WickedWicky> goooooooooooooood morning!
[08:39:30] <jmcp> WickedWicky: hi de hi
[08:41:01] <WickedWicky> evening :)
[08:41:21] <cmang> jbk: problem with the ferarri?
[08:41:22] <WickedWicky> I'm so happy it's monday and that we dont have labour day here... work! w00t!
[08:42:12] <jbk> cmang: well the dvd drive doesn't work, the power connector is loose (so it keeps switching between battery and ac) and the left touchpad button sticks
[08:45:33] <jbk> it's still under warranty
[08:45:39] <jbk> so i probably just need to call on tuesday
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[08:47:00] <cmang> ah, I see
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[08:48:48] <jamil_tsm> where see support card video?
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[08:51:43] <jbk> you don't know what type of video card you have?
[08:53:53] <WickedWicky> please tell me you aussies dont really have a contest "best cat meat-meal"
[08:54:28] <WickedWicky> shooting wild cats, okay.. but cooking them? o.O
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[08:55:07] <WickedWicky> (apparantly it's in Alace Spring, dunno where that is)
[08:55:21] <WickedWicky> but hey, you made it to the dutch news papers :P
[08:55:34] <jbk> could just be a slow news day :)
[08:55:44] <WickedWicky> haha
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[08:56:29] <madhatter> Hey, are there openssl header files available in SXCE by default? I only found the binary yet
[08:56:52] <jbk> try /usr/sfw/include
[08:56:55] <WickedWicky> yep
[08:56:58] <WickedWicky> they're there, just checked
[08:57:28] <WickedWicky> there is a directory called ssl within /usr/sfw/include
[08:57:52] <WickedWicky> openssl, that is
[08:58:33] <sickness> morning all
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[09:20:19] <madhatter> jbk: Thank you
[09:20:30] <madhatter> WickedWicky: Thank you, too :)
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[09:32:33] <WickedWicky> madhatter: canyou stamp my "good-deed" booklett? I need to meet my quota of 5 good deeds this week
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[09:34:08] <dlg> ola ben
[09:34:13] <benr> howde.
[09:34:17] <madhatter> WickedWicky: Sure, hand it over
[09:34:50] * WickedWicky passes it on
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[09:45:47] * madhatter signs it and puts his stamp on it
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[09:51:01] <trochej> What, no sxce 71 yet? Hmmm
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[09:55:02] <e^ipi> blame sxde
[09:55:36] <trochej> Probably
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[10:56:29] <Fish-> hello
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[11:02:31] <cmang> howdy
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[11:29:22] <timsf> hi all
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[12:06:39] <dlg> ola
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[12:33:45] <Gekkko> I'm getting 2/KBs
[12:33:47] <Gekkko> err 2KB/s
[12:33:50] <Gekkko> What the fuck is wrong with Telstra.
[12:34:09] <sickness> you finally switched over a pc instead of a pda? :P
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[12:34:40] <Gekkko> no.
[12:34:41] <Gekkko> sif.
[12:34:42] <Gekkko> lol
[12:35:18] <WickedWicky> someone enlighten me.. why am I watching Siccor Sisters?
[12:35:20] <g4lt-sb100> Gekkko What the fuck is wrong with Telstra.  <- gekko, do you need a cynicism transfusion?
[12:35:41] <Gekkko> look at it in this sense:
[12:35:42] <jmcp> Gekkko: they don't care, because they're the phone componay
[12:35:45] <Gekkko> how can they fucking fail so poorly.
[12:35:45] <jmcp> company
[12:35:46] <jmcp> duh
[12:36:06] <g4lt-sb100> Gekkko how can they fucking fail so poorly.  <- I need an IV of cynicism STAT
[12:37:01] <Gekkko> "Telstra is increasing line rental yet again, this time targeting customers who use a different telco for long distance calls."
[12:37:28] <g4lt-sb100> damn.  never mind, Gekkko is beyond help
[12:37:49] <WickedWicky> saying 'stat' is so M.D.
[12:38:42] * WickedWicky cant wait for House season 4 to be broadcasted
[12:39:43] <Gekkko> eh piracy.
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[12:57:16] <Tempt> Oh
[12:57:19] <Tempt> Gimmeh the House
[12:57:26] <Tempt> I've been itchin' ever since the last episode of S3.
[12:57:33] <Tempt> In fact, I was craving Season 4 *BEFORE* Season 3 finished.
[13:01:41] <Chipdancer> Tempt: what's the timeframe?
[13:02:06] <Tempt> No idea, I'm not clued up on American TV release schedules.
[13:02:07] <Tempt> Still, I want it.
[13:02:13] <Chipdancer> usually September sometime I think
[13:02:18] <Tempt> Hmmm
[13:02:29] <Tempt> That's looking promising. I better set up another RSS on $insert_site_here
[13:02:46] <Chipdancer> 25 September 2007, S04E01 title Alone
[13:02:54] <Chipdancer> IMDB to the rescue again
[13:03:02] <Tempt> oh, gimmeh
[13:03:12] <Tempt> I forsee the return of beer 'n' House night.
[13:03:17] <Chipdancer> oh dear
[13:03:24] <Chipdancer> I don't even remember the end of S3.. did they ALL leave?
[13:03:32] <Chipdancer> I seem to recall something like that
[13:03:33] <Tempt> Yep, all of 'em.
[13:03:40] <Tempt> And he got a new axe.
[13:03:47] <Chipdancer> well, sure explains the title
[13:04:06] <Chipdancer> Heroes S2 should be interesting, I hope
[13:04:14] <Tempt> OOh, more Heroes, for sure.
[13:04:21] <Chipdancer> with Kirsten Bell too
[13:04:26] <WickedWicky> OHY ES
[13:04:31] <Chipdancer> (and a lot of other Star Trek stars)
[13:04:34] <WickedWicky> Heroes started here again last thursday
[13:04:41] * WickedWicky is a huge House and Heroes fan
[13:04:41] <Chipdancer> WickedWicky: wow, alreayd?
[13:04:48] <Chipdancer> WickedWicky: is good?
[13:04:51] <WickedWicky> yes
[13:05:24] <boyd> Anyone here on planet opensolaris?
[13:05:47] <Tempt> "Planet" OpenSolaris?
[13:05:54] <Tempt> A whole planet of OpenSolaris?
[13:05:57] <boyd> Tempt: planet.opensolaris.org
[13:06:01] <Tempt> Surely it should be Star OpenSolaris or something similar
[13:06:11] <Tempt> Gaseous Fusion Ball OpenSolaris
[13:06:20] <boyd> The opensolaris nebula
[13:07:06] <jmcp> boyd: yeah, I am
[13:07:15] <jmcp> "Giant Ball Of Gas" opensolaris
[13:07:16] <boyd> I recall there were some instructions for making the head things (can'
[13:07:33] <boyd> can't remember what they're called)
[13:07:44] <WickedWicky> avatars? :P
[13:07:55] <boyd> It was *gotchis I think
[13:08:02] <boyd> (for some value of * )
[13:08:21] <boyd> jmcp: any idea?
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[13:09:39] <Tempt> Hmm, I suppose if there is an OpenSolaris RSS aggregator I should stick purplecow on there
[13:10:13] <boyd> Tempt: you need to get the blessing of Gman.
[13:10:27] <jmcp> boyd: just a mo
[13:10:32] <Tempt> The lineup of severed heads on planet.opensolaris.org seems a little ... tempting to do something insane with.
[13:10:40] <jmcp> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hackergotchi
[13:10:43] <jmcp> or just hassle gman
[13:10:46] <Berny> btw now gman went over to indiana... who is head of the gnome/desktop team now?
[13:11:07] <Tempt> boyd: I guess my not-so-supportive of Indiana remarks rule that one out ;)
[13:11:18] <boyd> Ah... hackergotchi That's is
[13:12:34] <boyd> Tempt: There was a page of all the hackergotchi somewhere IIRC
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[13:13:18] <Tempt> I'm seeing a little fake blood and an OpenSolaris zombie team.
[13:13:39] <timsf> http://planet.opensolaris.org/heads.html ?
[13:13:59] <boyd> That's the one
[13:14:16] <timsf>  (dunno how up to date it is though)
[13:14:17] <Tempt> Oh dear.
[13:16:13] <boyd> Tempt: worse: http://planet.gnome.org/heads/
[13:16:40] <WickedWicky> we could make quake 3 bots out of them
[13:16:45] <movement> timsf: people's heads tend to stay the same.
[13:17:06] <boyd> movement: I think he meant there may be new ones not on that page
[13:17:13] <boyd> (could be wrong)
[13:17:31] <Tempt> WickedWicky: Put them all on pikes in Q3, you mean ;)
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[13:35:48] <timsf> movement, har har - I meant that I wasn't sure whether that html includes all the heads on planet.opensolaris.org
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[13:46:32] <ofu> which sata-controllers are supported in a T2000? pcie preferred
[13:46:54] <jmcp> ofu: why do you want sata when the t2k has sas on board?
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[13:50:22] <tomww> jmcp: ofu might want put together a storage JBOD as a killer-machine :-)
[13:50:46] <jmcp> tomww: so would we all
[13:50:54] <jmcp> but I'd take a sas controller over sata any day
[13:51:14] <jmcp> with sata disks though, because I'm not a business :-)
[13:52:00] <dlg> jmcp: but you know better than most though
[13:52:01] <dlg> biased
[13:52:07] <jmcp> muahahahaha etc etc
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[13:55:53] * quasi starts banging his head into the wall - why the heck does this cluster not want me to set up  SUNW.HAStoragePlus - googling for "Failed to analyze the device special file associated with file system mount point" doesn't really give anything useful
[13:56:17] <trygvis> anyone know what kind of rack mount kit I need to put sun stuff in a compaq rack?
[13:57:30] <ofu> jmcp: my Gigabyte iRAM-device is sata only and i cant get it to work on the sas controller
[13:57:32] <quasi> trygvis: probably depends on which scumpaq rack and which sun server
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[14:01:00] <jmcp> ofu: bummer
[14:01:20] <trygvis> hmm. is there an easy way to figure it out? I want to put a x2200m2 and a x4200m2 in it
[14:04:22] <Berny> trygvis: just drill some additional holes ;-) or weld the buggers into the rack ;-)
[14:05:12] <Berny> though i remember the rackmount kit of my x2200 came with so many different screws and stuff that one combination must fit
[14:05:19] <JWheeler> lets not forget, crazyglue!
[14:05:27] <Berny> hehe
[14:06:09] <Tempt> quasi: That's kwality cluster fun.
[14:06:16] <Berny> duct tape might work as well ;-)
[14:06:19] <Tempt> quasi: What sort of storage are you trying to set up?
[14:06:23] <quasi> Tempt: not exactly fun
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[14:06:45] <quasi> Tempt: svm sharing hitachi luns
[14:07:37] <quasi> seems like my devicelinks get messed up
[14:09:05] <jmcp> quasi: hds 99x0 ?
[14:09:14] <quasi> jmcp: yep
[14:09:33] <quasi> 9960 iirc
[14:10:03] <jmcp> i think there's a specific mode setting that you need to enable for that line of kit in order to get scsi3 pgr happening
[14:10:09] <jmcp> I don't recall for sure though
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[14:10:31] <quasi> jmcp: the interconnect seems to work just fine
[14:10:48] <jmcp> I don't think it was an interconnect thing, but a port/lun specific thing
[14:10:51] <jmcp> like I said, I don't recall exactly
[14:10:55] <quasi> s/interconnect/quorun/
[14:11:01] <jmcp> Doc probably would, if he could be bothered to page-in
[14:11:10] <JWheeler> pfft. luns, they'll NEVER catch on
[14:11:21] <quasi> quorum
[14:11:28] * quasi needs more coffee
[14:11:29] <Tempt> quasi: HMmmmmm
[14:11:30] <jmcp> heh
[14:11:33] <Tempt> quasi: Interesting.
[14:11:55] <JWheeler> Does anyone else, shudder just a bit, every time that evil word is uttered?
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[14:11:59] <Tempt> quasi: You don't *need* to have working PGRs for a two node cluster, it'll emulate them if it can't set them.
[14:12:03] <JWheeler> Maybe it's just me.
[14:12:09] <Tempt> quasi: Are you using mpxio?
[14:12:25] <quasi> Tempt: yes
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[14:12:38] <Tempt> Hmmm. Hmmm.
[14:12:42] <Tempt> SC3.1 or 3.2?
[14:12:46] <quasi> 3.2
[14:13:18] <Tempt> Hmmm.
[14:13:37] <Tempt> Can you create the metaset and mount/unmount the filesystem / globally mount it?
[14:14:32] <quasi> I'm trying to avoid doing global because I want zones running on top of it
[14:15:23] <quasi> on the metaset level, I can move it between hosts and mount it
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[14:16:33] <quasi> but trying to create SUNW.HAStoragePlus:4 it fails
[14:16:46] <Tempt> No, but try getting it mounted globally first.
[14:16:53] <Tempt> You can always remove the global stuff later.
[14:17:10] <Tempt> If it'll mount globally, you at least know Cluster is 'happy' with it
[14:18:04] <Tempt> (You have my interest since I'll be building a test 3.2 cluster soon, with HDS storage)
[14:19:06] <quasi> Tempt: I'll give it a try
[14:20:49] <Tempt> I've got my SC3.2 training manuals here, so I have an additional documentation source.
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[14:30:49] <quasi> no joy
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[14:32:25] <Triskelios> hm, I'm getting a crash in readdir64_r(); the code has readdir_r and presumably defines _LARGEFILE64_SOURCE, but it also uses regular struct dirents... should be be using dirent64 explicitly?
[14:32:37] <infidel> where can i find the hardware compatibility list?
[14:33:32] <Triskelios> infidel: google
[14:33:50] <Tempt> quasi: Can you do a shared shell?
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[14:35:21] <quasi> Tempt: unfortunately not - this is buried behind a pile of firewalls with no outide access
[14:35:38] <Gekkko[PDA]> no ssh?
[14:35:41] <Tempt> Alright, so you couldn't do the global mount?
[14:35:49] <quasi> Tempt: nope
[14:36:02] <Tempt> Hmm, alright, is there a matching entry in /etc/vfstab on both nodes?
[14:36:05] <quasi> Gekkko[PDA]: only from where I'm sitting
[14:36:06] <Tempt> Does the mountpoint exist on both nodes?
[14:36:11] <quasi> Tempt: yep
[14:36:32] <Tempt> (shared shell, btw, requires web access to sun.com from where you run the applet and ssh from where you run the applet to the target)
[14:36:42] <Tempt> quasi: Double check it quickly?
[14:36:55] <quasi> Tempt: yep, still there
[14:37:01] <Tempt> Is the metaset configured to use /dev/did/blah?
[14:37:13] <Tempt> (as opposed to /dev/rdsk ..)
[14:37:20] <quasi> yeah
[14:37:34] <Tempt> Okay, are there did paths for both nodes?
[14:37:56] <Tempt> (didadm -l)
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[14:38:29] <quasi> yeah - or scdidadm if you're stuck on sc 3.1
[14:38:52] <quasi> but yes, it looks fine
[14:39:06] <Tempt> 3.1 has didadm as well
[14:39:10] <Tempt> But, anyway, ummn
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[14:39:26] <Tempt> What error do you get when you try to do the global mount?
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[14:39:40] <quasi> the same
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[14:40:10] <quasi>  Failed to analyze the device special file associated with file system mount point /zones/zonep_root: No such file or directory
[14:40:48] <Tempt> Okay
[14:41:09] <Tempt> (working from memory here)
[14:41:13] <Tempt> didadm -r
[14:41:17] <quasi> looks pretty much like Sun Alert ID: 102546
[14:41:23] <Tempt> give it a chance to refresh the did configs
[14:41:30] <Tempt> Oh, there's a bug?
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[14:42:50] <quasi> well, it mentions getting in trouble when running devfsadm -C and then not being able to switch resources
[14:43:03] <Tempt> Have you done a devfsadm -C?
[14:43:10] <quasi> yeah
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[14:43:19] <Tempt> Well, there's a clear workaround listed.
[14:43:29] <quasi> which didn't help
[14:43:32] <Tempt> Give that a try, and if it doesn't work do a did reconfiguration and a devfsadm just to make sure
[14:44:07] <Tempt> Every time I've had similar problems with 3.1, it came down to doing a didadm -r and scgdev(something)
[14:45:47] <Tempt> Could you pastebin /etc/vfstab; didadm -l and metaset on both hosts?
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[14:51:35] <quasi> yep - takes a moment
[14:52:41] <quasi> http://pastebin.ca/679873
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[14:57:28] <Tempt> (having a look)
[14:58:11] <Tempt> There's a tool (I think the name is 'scsi') in /usr/cluster/lib...
[14:58:16] <Tempt> It allows you to list PGRs
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[14:58:22] <Tempt> You might want to check that while I think about this
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[14:59:34] <Tempt> Oh, and the options should be logging,global for global mounts - if it isn't in vfstab it won't work.
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[15:00:02] <quasi> ah, forgot the global when trying that
[15:00:34] <Tempt> and metastat -s dg-zonep-root -p
[15:01:26] <quasi> http://pastebin.ca/679875 has metastat -s dg-zonep-root
[15:02:50] <Tempt> PGRs?
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[15:04:21] <quasi> PGR?
[15:05:03] <Tempt> Persistant reservations
[15:05:16] <Tempt> the utility in /usr/cluster/lib will tell you more
[15:05:24] <Tempt> I'm pretty sure it was called 'scsi' in 3.1, it might have changed.
[15:05:35] <quasi> /usr/cluster/lib/sc/scsi
[15:05:40] <Tempt> Yep, that's it.
[15:05:49] <Tempt> Just check to make sure there isn't some wierdness on there.
[15:05:52] <quasi> scsi -c [status | release | scrub | inkeys | inresv] -d disk_path
[15:06:09] <Tempt> scsi -c status /dev/rdsk/c.....
[15:06:24] <quasi> not on the did?
[15:06:50] <Tempt> No, give it the raw path
[15:07:04] <quasi> status...0
[15:07:14] <Tempt> Both nodes? both drives?
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[15:07:34] <Tempt> repeat the command but with inkeys instead of status
[15:07:56] <quasi> yes, both nodes and devs
[15:08:24] <quasi> Reservation keys(0):
[15:08:46] <Tempt> Okay, that should eliminate that (unless your storage hates you). But you can mount it locally, right?
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[15:09:06] <quasi> yes
[15:10:43] <Tempt> Did you run scgdevs?
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[15:11:36] <nachox> morning
[15:12:03] <Tempt> quasi: and if you could pastebin a df -k (just humour me) and /var/adm/messages it'd be great.
[15:13:52] <infidel> how do i tar and include links?
[15:14:05] <Triskelios> should non-global zones lofs mount the global's /export/home or autofs it? I've had issues with NFSv4 between zones
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[15:15:10] <quasi> Tempt: I did scgdevs on one both nodes and now I'm suddenly missing devices on the first node
[15:15:31] <Tempt> Please pastebin the df -k and the messages, I have an idea what might be brewing.
[15:15:51] <Triskelios> infidel: tar includes symlinks but I'm not sure it's aware of hard links
[15:16:41] <Doc> quasi: Sun Cluster?
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[15:16:52] <quasi> Doc: yes, 3.2
[15:17:02] <Doc> and what's the problem?
[15:17:14] <Doc> scdidadm -L   is far more useful than didadm
[15:17:29] <quasi> it doesn't want to let me share metasets
[15:17:38] <infidel> Triskelios: do you mind if i ask you what you run opensolaris on? ok cool. what do you run opensolaris on?
[15:17:39] <Doc> share as in mount on both nodes at the same time?
[15:17:58] <quasi> no, only one node at a time
[15:18:00] <Triskelios> infidel: a Sony VAIO SZ laptop, and an Ultra 5
[15:18:08] <Tempt> It sounds like there may be an issues with your mounts for the globaldevices filesystems
[15:18:26] <Tempt> That's why it can't open the underlying special device when you try to mount globally, but it will still mount locally.
[15:18:44] <quasi> Doc: I can move my metasets between the two nodes using meta* commands, but the cluster doesn't want to help
[15:18:48] <Doc> what exactly are you trying to mount?
[15:18:49] <infidel> Triskelios: i have a sony laptop as well, the fz140 i want to load it onto, is there any issues you have?
[15:19:03] <Doc> and what does metastat -p -s dg-zonep-root   show?
[15:19:23] <quasi> dg-zonep-root/d100 -m dg-zonep-root/d101 dg-zonep-root/d102 1
[15:19:23] <quasi> dg-zonep-root/d101 1 1 /dev/did/rdsk/d4s0
[15:19:23] <quasi> dg-zonep-root/d102 1 1 /dev/did/rdsk/d6s0
[15:19:42] <tsoome> btw, can zone be on global fs in sc?
[15:19:59] <Tempt> tsoome: Getting it to mount globally is a good diagnostic move before setting it up in the final config.
[15:20:03] <Doc> so you can mount it on one node, but not the other?
[15:20:08] <quasi> tsoome: no
[15:20:12] <quasi> Doc: yes
[15:20:19] <Doc> and how are you trying to mount it on the other?
[15:20:39] <quasi> Doc: I've tried switching the resource
[15:20:44] <Doc> are you letting the cluster do it, or doing it manually?
[15:20:45] <Triskelios> infidel: nothing really major. well, SXCE b70 has some issues with SpeedStep (there is a ~15 second delay on boot)
[15:20:47] <Doc> ahh.. ok
[15:21:02] <Doc> have you done whatever you need to do to tell sun cluster about the diskgroup?
[15:21:30] <quasi> Doc: I tried, but it barfs
[15:21:41] <infidel> Triskelios: the sz has a nvidia graphics card?
[15:21:44] <Doc> ok.. now we're getting somewhere.  with what error?
[15:21:55] <quasi> Tempt: http://pastebin.ca/679888
[15:22:14] <Triskelios> infidel: switchable between two graphics chips, intel and nvidia
[15:22:15] <quasi>  clresource create  -g clear-prod -t SUNW.HAStoragePlus:4  -p FilesystemMountPoints=/zones/zonep_root dg-zonep-root
[15:22:18] <quasi> clresource:  clearp1 - Failed to analyze the device special file associated with file system mount point /zones/zonep_root: No such file or directory
[15:22:19] <Triskelios> infidel: both work fine
[15:22:19] <Tempt> HMM..
[15:22:31] <Tempt> Node 1 can't see Node 2's globaldevices filesystem
[15:22:41] <Tempt> actually, neither can node 2.
[15:22:46] <Tempt> check vfstab?
[15:22:49] <infidel> Triskelios: ok i think i'll give it a shot
[15:23:13] <Doc> yup, there's no globaldevices filesystem for node 2
[15:23:16] <Triskelios> infidel: my laptop is in the HCL if you want to read my notes
[15:23:22] <Doc> which probably means that you gave them both the same MD numbers
[15:23:27] <Tempt> Yep, which is what I was thinking
[15:23:34] <Tempt> It's an easy mistake to make and not an obvious one
[15:23:37] <infidel> Triskelios: i'd like that
[15:23:42] <Tempt> quasi: You have your solution.
[15:23:48] <Triskelios> infidel: http://www.sun.com/bigadmin/hcl/data/systems/details/2322.html
[15:23:52] <infidel> Triskelios: do you have a url?
[15:23:54] <Doc> when installing clusters, give one node MD numbers like d110 for /, and node 2 d210, etc
[15:24:00] <infidel> Triskelios: cool
[15:24:09] <Doc> just remember that to do that you'll need to increase the default number of md devices above 128
[15:24:11] <quasi> Doc: ah, is that it?
[15:24:14] <Tempt> Wow, that took too long to diagnose
[15:24:19] <Tempt> I've been away from SC too long.
[15:24:29] <quasi> Doc: I'll have to adjust the sun tech who did the install
[15:24:39] <Tempt> quasi: Err, a Sun guy did that install?
[15:24:43] <Doc> a sun engineer did that install?
[15:24:50] <quasi> yeah, of the os
[15:24:55] <Doc> ask him to show you his Certified Sun Cluster Installer card
[15:24:56] <quasi> knowing it would be cluster
[15:24:58] <Tempt> Aah, not the Cluster install?
[15:25:06] <Tempt> Did he do the globaldevices filesystem?
[15:25:08] <quasi> no, he stopped before cluster
[15:25:18] <quasi> yes, because I said cluster
[15:25:19] <Doc> right, then he probably knows nothing about cluster
[15:25:36] <Tempt> Okay, you just need to fix up your globaldevices filesystem and you're good to go.
[15:25:38] <quasi> he looked up the eis checklist and called a friend
[15:25:41] <Doc> basically the globaldevices fs on each node MUST have a different md number
[15:25:49] <Doc> for the others it's optional, but good practice
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[15:26:15] <Doc> yah.. odds are he wasnt a certified cluster installer
[15:26:23] <Doc> is this system going to be production?
[15:26:30] <quasi> dammit, I did even see that as a warning some time pre-coffee this morning
[15:26:31] <Tempt> Anyway, IRC had the answer.
[15:26:44] <quasi> yeah, it is heading for prod
[15:26:54] <Doc> then you realise sun will not support it?
[15:27:01] <quasi> Doc: yeah
[15:27:32] <quasi> $boss didn't want to pay for the full install
[15:27:37] <Tempt> Sun's cluster support isn't necessarily worth getting excited about.
[15:27:38] <Doc> (and for anyone that questions why Sun won't support user-installed clusters, this is a good answer!)
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[15:27:49] <Tempt> And if you build it yourself and want support you can have it certified anyway
[15:27:54] <Doc> tempt: nope
[15:28:01] <Doc> only for non-production systems
[15:28:04] <Tempt> (although certification is nearly the same price as build)
[15:28:11] <Tempt> Doc: What? They took the certify option away?
[15:28:18] <Doc> i think you'll find it _is_ the same price as install
[15:28:33] <Doc> which is good, because it normally takes longer to do that an install
[15:28:34] * quasi thanks Doc and Tempt - if I ever meet any of you, I owe more than one beer
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[15:28:35] <Tempt> Doc: I remember they made it *marginally* cheaper.
[15:28:40] <tsoome> well if u cant sell software, you will sell service;)
[15:28:50] <Doc> tempt: the certification was only ever for a non-production cluster
[15:28:53] <Tempt> quasi: Hey, no problem, it was good to remember some SC again.
[15:29:23] <Tempt> Doc: Ask Boyd to tell you the story of my experience with Sun's support on a cluster anyway.
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[15:29:48] <Doc> like all sun support, sometimes it sucks, sometimes it's great
[15:30:51] <Tempt> Cluster is a bit tricky. There's not a lot of local guys in Australia with cluster know-how, and the guys that do know it are often hard to get hold of (esp. after hours) because they've got a list of faults to work through.
[15:31:25] <Doc> hmm.. most of the SSEs in australia know cluster fairly well
[15:31:39] <Doc> of course, SSEs dont do support any more, so...
[15:31:48] <Tempt> The experience I had was someone talking to a US "cluster specialist" who basically worked through and broke more and more things, like removing all the DID paths for no good reason.
[15:32:20] <Doc> you'd be surprised how often just trashing /dev/did and starting again will fix things :)
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[15:33:18] <Doc> did i mention that i was one of the first few cluster certified ppl in australia? :)
[15:34:10] <Doc> quasi: I've added your name to my list of ppl who have said they owe me a beer
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[15:34:50] <Doc> shortly the list will be long enough to allow me to contact everyone on the list and get them to chip in and buy me a brewery!
[15:35:55] <Cyrille> and operate it for your exclusive use, hopefully.
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[15:38:23] <Tempt> Doc: Hey, we could combine lists and get a really *big* brewery. Or perhaps a microbrewery and a distillery on the side?
[15:39:19] <Cyrille> but who would get which when you divorce? ;-)
[15:39:52] <FBdev> hi everybody. Has anyone managed to aggr'ate an iface hooked to a cisco switch? not Sun Trunking but dladm? or sun trunking is the only way to go?
[15:40:14] <Tempt> FBdev: Yes, I have two e1000g interfaces trunked using dladm to a Cisco 2950 switch.
[15:40:26] <ofu> FBdev: yes, works
[15:40:39] <ofu> but you have to configure this ports as a trunk on the cisco side
[15:40:54] <Tempt> Cyrille: Depends on the prolonged legal battle. I'm hoping distillery, there's a lot of competition in microbrews these days.
[15:40:59] <FBdev> Tempt 2950 oh .. I got a 3524 no port-channel   and no lacp commands ...
[15:41:11] <FBdev> ofu I keep trying : )
[15:41:28] <Tempt> FBdev: Then you'll have to check your Cisco documentation.
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[15:42:10] <ofu> switchport mode trunk
[15:42:23] <FBdev> Tempt yes, but I have not found any lacp for IOS 12.0.5 well I may just upgrade IOS
[15:42:23] <Triskelios> FBdev: aggr is just standard trunking/bonding
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[15:43:01] <Tempt> FBdev: Probably not the worst idea.
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[15:43:13] <FBdev> ofu yep that is what I did, plus 1dotq stuff no?
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[15:44:15] <FBdev> Tempt yep  thank you, I've made up my mind : )
[15:44:21] <ofu> i am not a cisco-guy, but I can tell you what is configured: switchport mode trunk, switchport trunk encapsulation dot1q, spanning-tree portfast trunk
[15:44:24] <quasi> Doc: any particular brewery? or just a home kit?
[15:44:47] <Doc> given how long the list ie, i was thinking of the Cascade Brewery
[15:44:55] <kaiwai> hmm, NZ has rejected the OOXML submission
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[15:45:15] <kjetilho> kaiwai: excellent, what is the tally now?
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[15:45:43] <Triskelios> kaiwai: pwned
[15:45:50] <kaiwai> kjetilho: its not looking good for Microsoft
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[15:46:07] <kaiwai> The US appears to be more popular than Microsoft in the world community
[15:46:10] <Tempt> Doc: Naah, Mountain Goat. At least the beer is nice.
[15:46:13] <kaiwai> and thats not saying much for either
[15:46:16] <infidel> Triskelios: should i get the developers or community release?
[15:46:27] <kjetilho> I've only heard the good results so far.  e.g. NL abstain, SE abstain, NO no
[15:46:37] <kjetilho> Cote d'Ivoire probably rubberstamped it ...
[15:46:42] <Tempt> I think the UK approved.
[15:46:56] <kjetilho> lapdogs, all of you
[15:47:23] * kjetilho made the unfounded assumption that Tempt is British.
[15:48:11] <Tempt> Oh, no, not British at all.
[15:48:14] <FBdev> ofu I just spanning-tree portfast ... no "trunk"  cheers I'll check the docs then  thank you everybody
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[15:54:32] <nachox> crap docs.sun.com is broken again...
[15:55:33] <kaiwai> hmm, it loads for me
[15:55:36] <kaiwai> whats broken about it?
[15:56:38] <cmihai> Nah, docs.sun.com is actually fine this time :-)
[15:57:01] <Doc> unlikely - docs.sun.com hasnt beem fine since about 1989
[15:57:07] <kaiwai> sunsole tends to have alot of problems though; downloading patches can be a bitch
[15:57:31] <kaiwai> what is it with it - why can't I just access the damn patches through ftp/http link?
[15:58:07] <Doc> because they want to track your downloads
[15:58:21] <kaiwai> lol
[15:58:37] <Doc> umm...
[15:58:41] <Doc> you think I'm joking?
[15:58:50] <kaiwai> well, will they reward me after 10 downloads? a free lap dance?
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[16:00:33] <Tempt> A free punch in the throat.
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[16:02:04] <nachox> cmihai:  http://docs.sun.com/app/docs/doc/820-0380/figur?l=en&q=sun+java+directory+server+6.1&a=view
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[16:03:43] <nachox> and shame on them, they should use glassfish
[16:05:35] <movement> kaiwai: you might get a trouble-free download? dunno.
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[16:08:32] <Doc> hmm.. melbourne opensolaris users group thingy
[16:09:03] <Tempt> At long last, there is one. Apparently.
[16:09:19] <Doc> hmm.. Nathan and Boyd are presenting
[16:09:35] <Tempt> Apparently so!
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[16:12:02] <Tempt> Doc: Thinking about taking a trip to Melbourne?
[16:12:40] <Doc> nah.. i'll probably be in NZ
[16:12:57] <Tempt> I'll probably give it a bit of a write-up anyway.
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[16:13:13] <Tempt> If I get particularly organised I might even record it.
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[16:27:27] <infidel> any managers here?
[16:28:26] <movement> kaiwai: ping
[16:29:34] <nachox> infidel: sun managers? it hurts them being here i think :P
[16:30:18] <infidel> nachox: did you see the movie independence day?
[16:30:34] <Cyrille> I fail to see the connection yet.
[16:30:47] <Cyrille> and that was a pretty bad movie too.
[16:31:22] <infidel> the connection is the geeks don't get the recognition but the managers do
[16:31:52] <kaiwai> hi movement
[16:32:01] <Cyrille> aha
[16:32:22] <movement> kaiwai: 6600189 is missing text.
[16:32:23] <Cyrille> I thought the connection was that evil aliens run a Mac OS variant...
[16:32:24] <nachox> infidel: yep
[16:32:34] <kaiwai> management being in a chatroom is as logical as me trying to be straight
[16:32:37] <movement> kaiwai: are you complaining about somewhere else than /usr/lib/pkgconfig + /usr/share/pkgconfig ?
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[16:33:02] <kaiwai> the fact that *.pc files are missing such as x11.pc
[16:33:16] <kaiwai> and the fact that all the *.pc are in one directory
[16:33:22] <kaiwai> *aren't
[16:33:32] <infidel> i love my job and i love unix, but we depend on managers for every thing
[16:34:19] <movement> kaiwai: they're different bugs.
[16:34:29] <movement> kaiwai: you should file a separate one about x11.pc
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[16:34:36] <kaiwai> *shrugs* close it then
[16:34:39] <movement> kaiwai: so just those two directories?
[16:34:44] <movement> kaiwai: huh?
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[16:35:04] <kaiwai> well if it is a waste of time, close the bug
[16:35:12] <movement> where did I say that??
[16:35:46] <kaiwai> well, if there isn't a fault then its a waste of time
[16:35:51] <movement> where did I say that??
[16:36:04] <Cyrille> just two lines above
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[16:38:44] * movement isn't going to play silly guessing games
[16:39:21] <kaiwai> put it this way; I won't make a seperate bug for x11.pc because it is part of a bigger/larger bug
[16:39:29] <kaiwai> that bug, shit being sprawled everywhere
[16:40:04] <movement> "everywhere" so far consists of /usr/share/pkgconfig
[16:40:04] <Cyrille> movement, sorry, that was just a stupid joke, you asked "where did I say that", which you'd just said two lines above too :-)
[16:40:13] <movement> Cyrille: I know :)
[16:40:30] <movement> and it is entirely unrelated.
[16:40:39] <movement> since it's missing.
[16:40:44] <Cyrille> ah right, I thought you were referring to that as a silly guessing game.
[16:41:38] <kaiwai> no, it consists of /usr/lib/pkgconfig, /usr/share/pkgconfig, /usr/sfw/pkgconfig
[16:41:57] <kaiwai> which should all be plonked onto one directory
[16:42:24] <kaiwai> and if it isn't sprawled around, its missing things like x11.pc which stop stuff from compiling
[16:43:28] <kaiwai> which all goes under 'pkgconfig on solaris is a giant bloody mess'
[16:43:49] <Cyrille> now there's a helpful bug synopsis
[16:44:04] <infidel> question, what is the preferred window manager for opensolaris?
[16:44:30] <renihs> metacity i assume :p
[16:44:46] <infidel> renihs: why?
[16:44:57] <kaiwai> Cyrille: a more concise would be 'Solaris is a bloody mess'
[16:45:00] <renihs> because its default in java desktop?
[16:45:06] <renihs> aka gnome
[16:45:13] <kaiwai> but I prefer to narrow my venting down to a set target
[16:45:28] <infidel> renihs: what is a windows manger?
[16:45:44] <renihs> metacity its in gnome
[16:46:09] <renihs> or do you want to know *what* a window manager (look at name) is?
[16:46:14] <infidel> a place you can open multiple terminals?
[16:46:19] <renihs> no
[16:46:24] <renihs> thats a desktop environment :P
[16:46:33] <renihs> window manager just decorates your windows
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[16:46:58] <infidel> i said window manger
[16:46:59] <Cyrille> puts flowers and curtains on them and stuff
[16:47:01] <renihs> X is what enabled multiple "terminals" :p as gui
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[16:54:06] <movement> kaiwai: thanks for the answer, I'll update the bug. BTW bugs.opensolaris.org is not the place for ranting.
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[16:56:20] <Cyrille> well, no, we all know *this* is the place to rant ;-)
[16:56:33] <Cyrille> (here I mean)
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[17:51:12] <ruiner> Hey, as per the suggestions last night I reinstalled Solaris completely.. and the compiler works under user ruiner but not as root when trying to compile silc
[17:51:30] <ruiner> Although, when I compile silc it says it cannot access .deps/perl blabla
[17:51:39] <ruiner> Anyone wanna tell me if my paths are correct again? :\
[17:52:10] <quasi> ruiner: try comparing the environment and path for root and for the user
[17:52:24] <ruiner> I did and they are the same
[17:52:29] <ruiner> I can even type gcc at the command line
[17:52:33] <ruiner> but ./configure tells me gcc is not found
[17:52:35] <ruiner> really weird
[17:52:44] <ruiner> and it finds it on the user
[17:52:48] <ruiner> heres the paths:
[17:53:02] <quasi> ruiner: besides, good practice says build as user, and install as root
[17:53:21] <ruiner> k ill do the make install as root
[17:53:23] <ruiner> see if that works
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[17:55:51] <mick_work> hi everyone
[17:55:56] <ruiner> ./../libtool: line 97: gcc: command not found
[17:56:00] <ruiner> thats as root
[17:56:08] <quasi> which gcc
[17:56:11] <mick_work> ruiner: you need to make sure gcc/g++ is installed
[17:56:20] <ruiner> and my path is ./usr/sbin:/usr/bin:/usr/sfw/bin:/opt/csw/bin:/usr/ucb:/usr/dt/bin
[17:56:25] <ruiner> mick_work: its installed
[17:56:30] <ruiner> I was building it as the user with gcc
[17:56:34] <ruiner> as root it cant find gcc
[17:56:41] <ruiner> but It finds it if I type it at prompt
[17:56:44] <mick_work> ruiner: make sure that it is in the $PATH
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[17:56:59] <ruiner> # gcc
[17:56:59] <ruiner> gcc: no input files
[17:56:59] <ruiner> #
[17:57:08] <mick_work> ruiner: and what does `which gcc` say?
[17:57:12] <ruiner> and heres my path /usr/sbin:/usr/bin:/usr/sfw/bin:/opt/csw/bin:/usr/ucb:/usr/dt/bin
[17:57:22] <ruiner> # which gcc
[17:57:23] <ruiner> no gcc in /usr/sbin /usr/bin
[17:57:23] <ruiner> #
[17:57:29] <ruiner> ahh
[17:57:30] <mick_work> as the user
[17:57:33] <ruiner> thats as root
[17:57:45] <mick_work> you said it only works as the user or as root?
[17:57:54] <mick_work> whichever it works on, try it there
[17:57:57] <mick_work> and find out where it is
[17:58:02] <ruiner> bash-3.00$ which gcc
[17:58:02] <ruiner> bash-3.00$
[17:58:12] <ruiner> ./usr/sfw/bin/gcc
[17:58:13] <mick_work> :-|
[17:58:22] <ruiner> the irc client cut it off
[17:58:26] <ruiner> but it looks in /usr/sfw/bin/gcc
[17:58:27] <mick_work> oh ok
[17:58:35] <ruiner> i dont know why root isnt looking in /usr/sfw/bin
[17:58:38] <ruiner> as you can see its in my path!
[17:59:05] <mick_work> i'd say login/logout (if you put it there later)
[17:59:10] <mick_work> that is really strange
[17:59:13] <ruiner> yea
[17:59:22] <ruiner> ive login/logged out like 100 times
[17:59:23] <ruiner> lol
[17:59:56] <mick_work> speaking of strange.... howcome when i start my box (i use a usb kb) -- it works to change things in the bios -- but when i get to the grub menu it doesn't work anymore
[18:00:05] <mick_work> ruiner: and it used to work?
[18:00:08] <ruiner> new install
[18:00:13] <ruiner> ive never used solaris before this box
[18:00:13] <ruiner> heh
[18:00:38] <ruiner> i reinstalled the entire night to try to get this working
[18:00:46] <ruiner> and now it wont even search my entire path
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[18:00:58] <mick_work> the only time that i've ever seen something that strange was when a coworker had pathing issues -- his .bashrc was like 1 meg (he had so much crap in there) -- and it kept resetting the $PATH when he wanted to do anything
[18:01:17] <ruiner> # gcc
[18:01:17] <ruiner> gcc: no input files
[18:01:17] <ruiner> # which gcc
[18:01:17] <ruiner> no gcc in /usr/sbin /usr/bin
[18:01:17] <ruiner> #
[18:01:28] <ruiner> why when I type in the command it searches my path
[18:01:36] <ruiner> but when I issue any other command it does not
[18:01:37] <ruiner> so weird
[18:01:42] <mick_work> ya
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[18:02:37] <ruiner> IM STUMPED
[18:02:43] <ruiner> sorry about the caps
[18:02:46] <ruiner> getting used to a sun keyboard
[18:03:18] <monkey_squad> [11:45] <kaiwai> Cyrille: a more concise would be 'Solaris is a bloody mess'
[18:03:24] <monkey_squad> I wish that was a productive line of text, but it isnt
[18:03:39] <ruiner> lol
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[18:04:28] <ruiner> im going to reboot
[18:04:30] <ruiner> see if anything changes
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[18:05:17] <g4lt-sb100> apparently he's running opensolaris vista
[18:05:49] <mick_work> lol
[18:05:56] <Cyrille> :-)
[18:06:23] <mick_work> WTF
[18:06:39] <mick_work> the installer requires 768 megs of RAM
[18:06:48] <g4lt-sb100> for SXDE, yes
[18:06:48] <mick_work> you have got to be fucking kidding me
[18:06:52] <Cyrille> that's the lightweight one
[18:06:53] <Cyrille> ;-)
[18:07:01] <mick_work> LMAO
[18:07:10] <g4lt-sb100> SXDE has multiple ramdisks to install sunstudio
[18:07:14] <quasi> mick_work: only the beta gui one in b70 and above
[18:07:26] <quasi> mick_work: it is going to be fixed
[18:07:58] <mick_work> ok, is there a way that i can install with my minimal system: w/ 512 megs of ram?
[18:08:29] <mick_work> i was wondering why QEMU didn't work to install SXDE :)
[18:08:40] <quasi> b69 or earlier or with jumpstart
[18:08:41] <mick_work> now that i have the actual hardware it still can't
[18:08:57] <quasi> (or possibly choosing text installer)
[18:09:04] <mick_work> b69.... didn't someone tell me to stay away from that ?
[18:09:23] <mick_work> can i choose the text installer at the Solaris Interactive prompt?
[18:09:31] <monkey_squad> I may never understand why it takes so much ram to copy files from cd to hard drive
[18:10:03] <mick_work> monkey_squad: if you ask me, they do it from CD->RAM->Disk
[18:10:19] <quasi> monkey_squad: a new beta installer - they know it needs to be fixed and will do so eventually
[18:10:21] <mick_work> since 768 is as much space as a CD
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[18:11:29] <mick_work> quasi: can i reboot from the Interactive shell to say "please choose text installer"? or something like that? grub doesn't like my usb kb :(
[18:11:34] <g4lt-sb100> quasi, the 768M install is standard with SXDE and has ben since NV55b
[18:12:12] <monkey_squad> isnt there a text installer that uses 500mb ram?  or is that gone in b70?
[18:12:17] <quasi> g4lt-sb100: oh? I missed that - I jumpstart and usually have a whole lot more memory ;)
[18:12:33] <mick_work> nm, i have another slot for some more RAM
[18:12:42] <mick_work> i'll just steal some from another box
[18:12:46] <quasi> monkey_squad: I think there is, but it may be part of what's broken in the new installer
[18:12:50] <mick_work> does only the install need this much RAM?
[18:12:59] * mick_work hopes
[18:13:09] <g4lt-sb100> mick_work, just install SXCE and add SUNWspro later
[18:13:15] <g4lt-sb100> yes
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[18:13:16] <mick_work> i don't remember older solaris versions ever being such mem hogs :-/
[18:13:19] * Sup3rkiddo did that and is happy
[18:13:35] <mick_work> g4lt-sb100: that requires me to move down on the grub menu
[18:13:39] <mick_work> doesn't it?
[18:13:42] <g4lt-sb100> sacrilege
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[18:14:34] <g4lt-sb100> it requires you to hit the down arrow one whole time
[18:14:59] <mick_work> g4lt-sb100: my kb doesn't work in grub
[18:15:14] <mick_work> the usb driver kicks in after grub starts
[18:15:38] <mick_work> g4lt-sb100: see my problem?
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[18:19:53] <Triskelios> oh great, readdir_r is trashing the stack
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[18:31:20] <jcsmith> hi all, i've asked about this around a year ago, but i've finally secured the funds to go ahead with building a solaris home file server, what motherboard and storage controller combinations have any of you all had good luck with?
[18:31:38] <madhatter> re
[18:32:21] <jcsmith> i've checked out the hcl, but i was kind of curious to see what people have had experience with vs. what is said to work
[18:32:37] <madhatter> WickedWicky: /usr/sfw/include/openssl does not seem to work, though. :( configure tells me that SSL support is enabled but OpenSSL not found
[18:32:52] <jamesd> jcsmith, most important part is a supported sata controller,  see  sun.com/bigadmin/hcl   amd cpus perferably dual core, and lots of ram 1GB is the bare minimum for decent zfs performance.
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[18:33:49] <jcsmith> thanks jamesd, any recs for a sata controller you've had good luck with, i'm hoping to find one that can do 3gb/sec?
[18:34:06] <jamesd> intel gigabit cards are nice...  you want gigabit because you dont want the nic to be the limiting factor... any sata drive can fill a  100mbit nic in its sleep
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[18:35:01] <jamesd> i have only used the one built into my  sun u20 so far,   there marvel(sp?) is quite nice i hear its the one in the  x4500/thumper
[18:36:53] <jcsmith> i would love to spring for a u20 or u25 but unfortunately they're out of the price range
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[18:37:19] <jamesd> i understand.. i wouldn't have mine if it wasn't a gift.
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[18:39:08] <monkey_squad> jcsmith, people ask that on the zfs board/list all the time, read there
[18:39:44] <monkey_squad> new intel chipset motherboards have 8 sata2 onboard that is supported by opensolaris
[18:40:32] <monkey_squad> make that 6
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[18:48:30] <mick_work> http://bugs.opensolaris.org <-- i can't find the bug filed about the RAM thing
[18:48:41] <mick_work> i'd like to track that issue
[18:48:54] <mick_work> for now i up'ed the ram on the box
[18:51:48] <monkey_squad> you can look to the caiman project and its forum for more on that
[18:52:06] <madhatter> WickedWicky: What I did not think of: you have to add the dir in a way that configure can append include/openssl/ by itself :D
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[18:52:36] <monkey_squad> mick, if I read moinak right here, the Slim Install subproject of caiman will only need 70mb?  http://www.opensolaris.org/jive/thread.jspa?threadID=38161&tstart=0
[18:53:20] <monkey_squad> although the project page says the minimum ram req is 512mb
[18:55:01] * mick_work nods
[18:56:19] <monkey_squad> you see mentions of "universal packaging system" and "Universal Package Repository" around the project pages, but nobody wants to explain it in detail yet
[18:57:02] <monkey_squad> its like this elephant walking around but they dont explain wtf the deal is with the elephant
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[19:00:34] <mick_work> heh
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[19:11:57] <madhatter> Did anybody here build xterm on SXCE?
[19:14:12] <Triskelios> maybe as part of the X consolidation
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[19:16:10] <madhatter> It does not seem to be available by default, although there is a description about xterm on docs.sun.org
[19:16:19] <flyingparchment> /usr/openwin/bin/xterm
[19:16:42] <madhatter> flyingparchment: I am going nuts here
[19:16:55] <Triskelios> madhatter: Solaris has shipped with xterm as long as it has existed
[19:17:04] <madhatter> flyingparchment: Why are so many bins in so many different directories? ;)
[19:17:19] <flyingparchment> madhatter: legacy reasons.  xterm was part of OpenWindows
[19:17:44] <Triskelios> madhatter: just set PATH in /etc/default/login
[19:17:53] <madhatter> flyingparchment: oic, thanks a lot :)) Now I can get rid of this stupid gnome-term
[19:17:58] <flyingparchment> one hopes all the X stuff would be consolidated into /usr/X some day
[19:18:20] <madhatter> Triskelios: I already added some dirs to my path, but I did not know about this one
[19:18:54] <Triskelios>  /usr/bin:/sbin:/usr/sbin:/usr/ccs/bin:/usr/dt/bin:/usr/openwin/bin:/usr/X11/bin:/usr/sfw/bin:/usr/sfw/sbin:/opt/sfw/bin:/opt/sfw/sbin:/opt/csw/bin:/opt/csw/sbin:/opt/jdsbld/bin:/opt/onbld/bin:/opt/SUNWspro/bin pretty much covers anything you'd conceivably want
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[19:19:52] <Triskelios> (nobody wants /usr/ucb or /usr/gnu =P)
[19:20:32] <flyingparchment> monkey_squad: 70MB miniroot doesn't mean it only needs 70MB RAM
[19:20:43] <flyingparchment> it means it needs that much before the OS starts, to hold the root filesystem
[19:20:47] <madhatter> Triskelios: Thanks! I will add what's missing
[19:21:34] <Triskelios> madhatter: the last couple are for dev stuff, /opt/SUNWspro/bin you might want for Studio...
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[19:25:26] <mick_work> i must say - the installer really looks nice for SXDE
[19:25:37] <flyingparchment> too bad it has no features
[19:25:51] <mick_work> minus the crappy pictures of course
[19:26:10] <mick_work> like that bulldozer - w...t....f....
[19:26:32] <Triskelios> I wonder how long the full caiman development cycle is going to take
[19:27:12] <mick_work> flyingparchment: ya, i didn't really realize that the installer doesn't really do anything :)
[19:27:26] <mick_work> like, you can't choose packages etc
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[19:28:36] <mick_work> some kid w/ pumpkins... :-/
[19:28:42] <mick_work> what were they thinking
[19:29:04] <Triskelios> probably just grabbed a batch of stock photos
[19:29:14] <mick_work> ya
[19:29:19] <Triskelios> marketing is probably not involved yet
[19:29:20] <mick_work> that is what it looks like
[19:29:23] <mick_work> lol
[19:29:30] <mick_work> ya, so it seems :)
[19:30:31] <WickedWicky> BOO!
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[19:34:52] <cmihai> Hey
[19:35:48] <WickedWicky> ehya
[19:38:51] <quasi> hey hey
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[19:45:29] <moazamraja> re
[19:45:37] <moazamraja> there is a opensolaris 'conference' happenign sometime soon?
[19:46:26] <moazamraja> found it...
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[19:47:22] <ocr> I wish to benchmark/monitor memory usage on a couple of mongrel application servers as I perform a HTTP stresstest; are there any low overhead benchmark tools I can use? (generally for daemons)
[19:48:43] <mick_work> shit install failed
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[19:49:32] <Berny> d'oh
[19:50:04] <Berny> why me again?
[19:51:30] <Berny> guy from work just complained he can't get mail from his gf mail adress anymore... reason our mailserver rejected their mail due to excessive header size.... 32k long list of mail references :-\
[19:51:42] <tomww> moazamraja: the indianish one? Do you attend?
[19:54:17] <mick_work> bad PBR Sig - weeeeee
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[19:57:15] <moazamraja> http://www.opensolaris.org/os/project/indiana/summit/
[19:57:21] <moazamraja> tomww: i am hoping to, yes
[19:57:32] <moazamraja> it's in October
[19:58:07] <mick_work> omfg
[19:58:15] <mick_work> i just killed my box w/ bios setting
[19:58:22] <mick_work> how the hell do you do that?
[19:58:34] <mick_work> it just beeps really loud
[19:58:37] <mick_work> and it exits
[19:58:53] <tomww> yes, the crazy think with that is, I'm in the US at the beginning of October and this conference is shortly after...
[19:59:13] <mick_work> grrrr
[19:59:17] <mick_work> i hate computers
[19:59:29] <mick_work> i just took out the battery (doesn't that reset the BIOS?)
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[20:06:16] <cmihai> mick_work, that actually depends ;-). Is it a PC?
[20:06:27] <cmihai> Well, BIOS
[20:06:28] <cmihai> heh
[20:06:38] <monkey_squad> no ITS HIS CRAY
[20:06:47] <cmihai> Check for a reset BIOS jumper switch. Put the jumper on that for a few seconds.
[20:08:19] <e^ipi> usually you turn the machine on while the switch is in the 'reset' position
[20:08:35] <cmihai> Not really ;-)
[20:09:11] <mick_work> i'll look for my manual to do that
[20:09:17] <cmihai> Just put the damn battery back in, flick the reset jumper and you're set.
[20:09:36] <cmihai> mick_work, yeah, google that up. If not, and you have good ideas, it should be near the battery and labeled :-)
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[20:13:38] <mick_work> woot
[20:14:00] <mick_work> my manual was wrong -- but by trying a bunch of jumpers it worked :)
[20:14:44] <cmihai> Ah, there you go ;-)
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[20:23:18] <monkey_squad> unplug the psu and take out the battery for a couple minutes max, this does the same as the reset jumper
[20:25:11] <mick_work> ok, "usb controller" > "enable usb keyboard" then "BIOS" instead of "OS" did it for me
[20:25:18] <mick_work> now i'm trying SXCE
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[20:43:58] <trochej> http://www.flickr.com/photos/trochej/1314459692/
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[20:57:48] <mick_work> how do you get one?
[20:57:59] * mick_work wants an opensolaris shirt :)
[20:58:29] <jamesd> there is an opensolaris store
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[20:58:59] <jamesd> http://store.opensolarisswag.com/
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[20:59:32] <trochej> I GOT one
[20:59:34] <trochej> From Sun :)
[20:59:41] <ruiner> Has anyone got silc to compile in nevada?
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[20:59:54] <ruiner> I can get the toolkit to compile but the client
[20:59:57] <ruiner> I cant get the client working
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[21:00:11] * jamesd has recieved several from sun, i have a whole collection of  sun/solaris/java/blackbox shirts
[21:00:34] <trochej> jamesd: It's my first one, and I didn't buy anything from them. It
[21:00:44] <trochej> It's all for work done on opensolaris
[21:01:03] <mick_work> i've gotten one shirt from a project that i worked on
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[21:01:19] <jamesd> trochej, i have never bought anything new from sun,  i just helped out a lot for the community and filled out the right forms at the right time...
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[21:04:47] <trochej> jamesd: :)
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[21:07:16] <mick_work> someone mentioned the other day that "jumpstart is hard to setup" -- from what i see, it looks trivial
[21:07:31] <mick_work> just copy it to an exported nfs directory
[21:07:36] <mick_work> pretty much
[21:08:03] <jamesd> mick_work, its not so hard to install, but it takes a ph.d in networking to debug.
[21:08:17] <mick_work> lol
[21:08:32] <mick_work> serious?
[21:08:53] <mick_work> but the instructions look so easy :)
[21:09:07] <mick_work> now to see if i can run it on a linux server ;)
[21:10:29] <jamesd> mick_work, its all a matter of luck, they break nfs a different way each release, some people report that you can use linux as a jumpstart server, but i have never got that lucky
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[21:10:55] <mick_work> "they" being...?
[21:11:13] <Berny> many people
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[21:23:30] <e^ipi> nevada comes with some printing automagic thing now doesn't it?
[21:25:33] <Triskelios> e^ipi: I'm not sure, I didn't see anything on my system except the stuff I already installed from opensolaris.org
[21:26:10] <Triskelios> (which generally works except it can hang the print dialog when selecting remote printers)
[21:28:01] <e^ipi> oh, yeah, it's got one
[21:28:04] <e^ipi> it's just dumb
[21:28:13] <e^ipi> my printer's not in the list
[21:29:51] <Berny> .oO(don't buy unsupported cheapo printers ;-))
[21:29:56] <Triskelios> it has one? what are the packages named?
[21:31:45] <e^ipi> Berny: it's just some PPD hacking i need to do
[21:31:54] <e^ipi> i've had this printer working on freebsd & linux before
[21:32:17] <e^ipi> not right out of the box either... only the mac managed to pull that one off
[21:32:26] <Triskelios> e^ipi: yeah, you can import ppds
[21:32:32] <e^ipi> i know
[21:33:04] <Berny> well adding a ppd is a piece of cake
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[21:39:43] <nrubsig> My chickengod, is there noone who's going to sponsor my putbacks ? ;-(
[21:39:48] <Triskelios> e^ipi: anyway, what is the package you're using? is it just SUNWprint-monitor?
[21:45:18] <Stric> Anyone know of good pci eSATA cards supported by (open)solaris?
[21:45:49] <nrubsig> Stric: usual answer: Ask JmCpBot!
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[21:50:21] <ofu> has anybody configured intel speedstep on nv72?
[21:50:38] <ofu> Stric: i think a sil3112-based card might work
[21:50:50] <nrubsig> s/o/u/;s/u/o/
[21:51:08] <Triskelios> ofu: will try it later today
[21:51:25] <e^ipi> Triskelios: dunno... i plugged the printer in & something popped up and asked me what kind it was
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[21:52:58] <quasi> ofu: have they fixed the sil3112s? last time I looked, the man page said no support for extenders
[21:54:03] <quasi> (haven't checked lately)
[21:54:13] <ofu> i think there is a difference between extenders and esata
[21:54:32] <ofu> most esata is passive imho and doesnt contain extenders
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[22:01:10] <xinkeT> don't you meant port multipliers?
[22:01:13] <xinkeT> s/meant/mean
[22:01:53] <quasi> yeah, I did
[22:02:02] <Triskelios> quasi: the sil311x driver is still just ata
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[22:02:21] <xinkeT> I'm getting rid of a 12 bay external eSATA raid unit because there is no port multiplier support yet
[22:02:31] <quasi> Triskelios: right, then it is the same as the 3124 I have here
[22:03:37] <Triskelios> quasi: sil3124 is different, it has a real sata driver (si3124)
[22:04:28] <quasi> Triskelios: seems like I need to upgrade this box pretty badly - it has a 3112 controller, but no driver and the 3124 driver is plain ata
[22:04:57] <quasi> snv_56 is getting old
[22:05:10] <Triskelios> make sure your 3112 isn't using the RAID firmware
[22:05:23] <Triskelios> we had to reflesh some of ours
[22:05:25] <Triskelios> *reflash
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[22:05:59] <quasi> currently I'm just using the onboard nv instead
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[22:13:41] <mick_work> hmm, i just installed SXCE and it wanted to reboot - now i have a minimal grub shell
[22:14:30] <mick_work> heh... i rebooted again and now it works
[22:14:32] <mick_work> odd
[22:15:04] <mick_work> oh nm - i spoke too soon
[22:15:46] <nrubsig> 1960: Hero of the Soviet Union for shooting down Gary Powers
[22:15:59] <nrubsig> 2007: Hero of OpenSolaris.org for integrating a shell
[22:16:16] <nrubsig> (ok, bad comparisation)
[22:16:59] <mick_work> wow, this looks to be so unstable
[22:17:25] <mick_work> ok, it keeps rebooting if i select the default kernel -- so i select "failsafe"
[22:17:54] <mick_work> Do you wish to automatically update this boot archive? y
[22:18:02] <quasi> nrubsig: ck
[22:18:07] <nrubsig> quasi: ?!
[22:18:08] <quasi> argh
[22:18:13] <mick_work> NOTICE: alloc: /a: filesystem full
[22:18:26] <Triskelios> mick_work: that would explain why it didn't boot
[22:18:31] <nrubsig> NOTICE: Need coffee
[22:18:59] <Triskelios> mick_work: /a in failsafe is your regular / filesystem
[22:19:02] <nrubsig> quasi: How can I serve you, my lord ?
[22:19:03] <mick_work> Triskelios: solaris can't take up that much freakin space
[22:19:18] <Triskelios> mick_work: maybe you allocated too much for /export/home
[22:19:19] <quasi> nrubsig: or was it being a villain for taking up bw with something as useless as ksh93?
[22:19:24] <mick_work> i thought that 8 gigs was how much it takes - not over 100 gigs
[22:19:43] <mick_work> though... with the mem requirements -- i shouldn't be that surprised
[22:19:46] <mick_work> :)
[22:19:58] <mick_work> Triskelios: i had it automatically do it
[22:20:00] <Triskelios> mick_work: 7-8G is the upper bound, yeah
[22:20:06] * nrubsig reads http://blogs.sun.com/tpenta/entry/my_dad_by_lucy_age
[22:20:22] <quasi> ksh88 should be enough for anyone
[22:20:22] <nrubsig> Tpenta: http://blogs.sun.com/tpenta/entry/my_dad_by_lucy_age :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-)
[22:20:53] <nrubsig> quasi: what is "bw" ? And which villain ?
[22:21:11] <mick_work> ok, /ramdisk is 320M
[22:21:14] <Triskelios> mick_work: go into 'format' in failsafe and check the partitions
[22:21:16] <mick_work> which is a:
[22:21:25] <mick_work> well i checked w/ df -h
[22:21:51] <quasi> bandwidth / as in used bits and generated noise ;)
[22:22:22] <nrubsig> quasi: and why should ksh93 be useless ?
[22:23:21] <quasi> nrubsig: I just never understood what all the fuss was about
[22:23:22] <Triskelios> mick_work: how much RAM is installed?
[22:23:25] <mick_work> ok, i'll reinstall (again)
[22:23:32] <mick_work> 768
[22:24:01] <mick_work> so far: SXDE has died on the install (the graphical installer)
[22:24:13] <mick_work> then the SXCE did just fine in the install - but will not boot
[22:24:22] <nrubsig> quasi: getting rid of old stuff which is half broken and noone at Sun seemed to care about for a looong time.
[22:24:26] <Berny> what are you doing?
[22:24:43] <mick_work> only diff was that i originally said "use the whole partition" and the second time i said "partition however you feel like it"
[22:24:57] <nrubsig> quasi: at some point people get frustrated and upset and cook-up horrible things in their stomaches
[22:24:58] <mick_work> Berny: i just installed it
[22:25:22] * Berny had the installer die once in well over a year (due to bad dvd media that was)
[22:25:46] <mick_work> let me check the isos
[22:25:55] <mick_work> iirc they were fine
[22:25:56] <nrubsig> Berny: sounds like the DVD filesystem is ignoring read errors... ;-(
[22:26:26] <Berny> nrubsig: na didn't read that block at all :-\ just sat there for hours
[22:26:49] <Berny> mick_work: how much space did you have free in your / slice?
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[22:27:15] <mick_work> should have been quite a chunk
[22:27:21] <mick_work> since i have over 150 gigs
[22:27:43] <Berny> creating the bootarchive should take more than 50megs or so
[22:27:44] <mick_work> even if the first install took 8 gigs and it didn't erase it for some reason
[22:28:43] <Berny> you sure it tries to boot off the right slice? if the ld install is still there it might use the wrong one
[22:29:06] <mick_work> it only had 2 options in grub
[22:29:08] <Berny> if you have just / and /export/home 8gig might get thight
[22:29:15] <mick_work> one kernel or the failsafe one
[22:29:23] <Berny> yeah
[22:29:47] <mick_work> i'll try the graphical thing again
[22:29:55] <mick_work> and see that it erases everything
[22:29:56] <Berny> the grub installer fails sometimes and doesn't put the right slice in
[22:30:26] <mick_work> "finding disks" should tell me
[22:30:38] <Berny> do a manual layout and kick away the old slices
[22:32:43] <mick_work> also, is it not possible in the installer to tell it to use ldap to authenticate?
[22:32:58] <mick_work> or do i need to migrate after boot
[22:33:22] * mick_work reinstalls for the 3rd time
[22:33:23] <Berny> thats possible
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[22:33:29] <Berny> thats right at the start
[22:33:48] <Berny> where it asks about naming service to use
[22:34:22] <mick_work> it never asked me that
[22:34:30] <mick_work> i guess that comes later
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[22:36:06] <Berny> na thats well before disk layout
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[22:36:57] <Berny> something like page 3 or 4 of the old installer
[22:37:16] <Triskelios> "MonoDevelop failed to start. The following error has been reported: Some sort of w32 error occurred: 0."
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[22:37:21] <Triskelios> bwhaha
[22:37:34] <mick_work> i used the graphical installer
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[22:38:09] <mick_work> Triskelios: oh i know the feeling
[22:39:23] <Triskelios> mick_work: the new installer really isn't suitable for general use yet
[22:39:33] <mick_work> oh... fuck....
[22:39:43] <mick_work> sigh
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[22:40:39] <Triskelios> you don't really get any of the choices with it
[22:42:44] <Berny> mick_work: install sxce and addstudio later
[22:43:05] <coffman> hey there
[22:43:13] <coffman> how could i get ride about iiimd?
[22:43:31] <mick_work> Berny: thats what i did before - and all i got was a grub> shell
[22:43:40] <mick_work> then that reboot problem
[22:43:48] <mick_work> it is at 15%
[22:43:58] <mick_work> if it screws up again i'll do it again w/ SXCE
[22:44:18] <mick_work> atm - i'm doing an md5 on the iso to see if it is all good
[22:44:39] <coffman> i dont need to switch my locales that often and it is a single user system (except some one screws around with the non us locales, this happens way to often!)
[22:45:09] <mick_work> why not just use utf8?
[22:45:12] <coffman> no point of having a 7mb daemon around for it ..
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[22:45:44] <coffman> mick_work: well pls. just dont. oki np?
[22:45:54] <coffman> i use utf8....
[22:46:00] <mick_work> nm then
[22:46:16] <mick_work> i might just be misunderstanding your rant coffman  ;)
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[22:46:44] <mick_work> ah i see: "how could i get ride about iiimd?"
[22:47:14] <coffman> *about/off
[22:47:21] <WickedWicky> night all
[22:49:52] <mick_work> 223e7c189e88fc4845265c2202f13dcd  sol-nv-b70-x86-dvd.iso <--- ok my md5 checks out
[22:49:57] <coffman> which rant? oh you want to have a rant?
[22:50:13] <mick_work> no, i didn't see the original line
[22:50:51] <coffman> so what should one use instead of cde this days on a sunray server? gnome? gnome is a mother f*cking bad joke
[22:51:45] <coffman> i could use a windows terminal server instead and it would perform better!
[22:52:03] * Berny just kills and pkgrms iiimd
[22:53:03] <coffman> gar
[22:53:05] <Pietro_S> coffman: if you have sxce sunray server you can try xfce ...
[22:54:15] <mick_work> why a server has x installed is beyond me
[22:54:40] <Pietro_S> it *should* work, but looks like noone tried it because you need sxce as server ...
[22:54:40] <Auralis> xfce works fine on sol9 as well
[22:54:44] <coffman> mick_work: sunray server dude
[22:54:57] <mick_work> coffman: ya... dude
[22:54:59] <Triskelios> mick_work: Sun Rays are thin clients that run their software off a server
[22:55:09] <mick_work> ah ok
[22:55:14] <delewis> nothing wrong with having X11 installed on any server. You still need a good bulk of X11 to export a display from the server to your workstation.
[22:55:24] <coffman> mick_work: its terminal server for the big guys
[22:55:31] <mick_work> ok
[22:55:53] <delewis> and there are legitimate reasons for why you might to need to export the DISPLAY from a server *cough* Oracle installs *cough*
[22:56:06] <mick_work> heh
[22:56:31] <mick_work> i am kind of worried that solaris will be a bit of a hog
[22:56:45] <delewis> it utilizes your hardware.
[22:56:47] <mick_work> so far (from what i have seen today) -- it looks like the vista of the *nix world :)
[22:57:01] <delewis> in that it uses your hardware?
[22:57:06] <mick_work> "the installer looks pretty... but...."
[22:57:07] <Triskelios> it's mostly RAM-heavy
[22:57:14] <mick_work> ;)
[22:57:33] <Berny> the installer is still a piece of crap
[22:57:53] <Berny> once you know what you're doing you either jumpstart or do a console install
[22:57:53] <Triskelios> yeah, the old installer was just a functional piece of crap
[22:57:54] <coffman> Pietro_S: well, if i had a budget of a bigger company, oknp - gnome is nice with tx and such , but this small stuff, in education. and sxce is or maybe was *sigh* a no go
[22:57:55] <delewis> that's why those of us capable of doing customized Jumpstarts, do. :-)
[22:58:19] <mick_work> it is so bad, i'm thinking of actually getting the code and making some fixes (but then again, i'm sure they want to actually have it work first before tweaking it)
[22:58:42] <mick_work> Berny: i'm considering setting up a JumpStart server at this point
[22:59:17] <coffman> Pietro_S: and yeah, sure i could use xfce, but thats not the point since i like something nice and smooth, something where i can open a ticket, make a support call and such
[22:59:22] <Triskelios> mick_work: http://www.opensolaris.org/os/project/caiman/Dwarf/ was responsible for the new installer... note that they do say it's not supposed to be fully functional
[23:02:03] <Pietro_S> coffman: xfce is nice and smooth... (isn't there any support over sxde? that will also run xfce)
[23:02:16] <mick_work> the funny part is that i kept hearing "linux sucks" rants in here :D
[23:02:40] <coffman> i dont care about the ram use of the installer, i dont care about the install time, i care about zfs root and lu on zfs etc
[23:02:49] <Berny> well thats just a fact :>
[23:03:22] <delewis> mick_work: and? it does. :-)
[23:03:29] <mick_work> Berny: if linux sucks, how would you describe opensolaris
[23:03:44] <Berny> it works fine
[23:03:45] <mick_work> especially after my day of installing it 3x in a row
[23:03:53] <mick_work> if you were me...
[23:03:53] <coffman> Pietro_S: well, sxde is a bad joke to me, no updates? no need for it. and still, i dont think i would be able to open a ticket for xfce in sxde as long as it is not in the bundle
[23:04:02] <delewis> mick_work: that's your experience, because you don't have an ideal setup.
[23:04:12] <delewis> many of us have proper hardware, and the resources necessary to do Jumpstarts.
[23:04:14] <mick_work> delewis: what is the ideal setup?
[23:04:27] <mick_work> "proper hardware"?
[23:04:38] <coffman> ill run xfce by my self on my laptop on sxce, it lowers the pain, thats it
[23:04:47] <mick_work> this thing is a 2 gigahertz x86 w/ (now 768 ram)
[23:04:50] <delewis> mick_work: hardware with > 2GB of memory.
[23:04:56] <delewis> or at the very least >1GB of memory.
[23:05:18] <delewis> mick_work: and that's a peecee with a minimal amount of memory by today's standards.
[23:05:33] <mick_work> whats next? i'll need to buy a cray just to install opensolaris :)
[23:05:34] <nrubsig> http://www.dhd24.com/azl/index.php?anz_id=7388081
[23:05:41] <nrubsig> erm wrong win
[23:05:46] <delewis> mick_work: no, you'll buy hardware that matches today's standards.
[23:05:46] <coffman> kde is something i would waste my memory for..
[23:06:07] <delewis> most systems Sun has sold since 1997 have at least 1GB of memory.
[23:06:19] <delewis> get with the times.
[23:06:53] <mick_work> funny thing.... 20 years ago we had to use 6 floppies to install an OS (and that sucked) -- now we need 6 CDs for opensolaris (and that sucks) -- we haven't moved much now have we :)
[23:07:06] <Triskelios> delewis: I think it's important to point out that not everyone buys hardware from Sun
[23:07:26] <delewis> you get a lot more stuff on those 6 CDs now than you got on those 6 floppies then.
[23:07:29] <Triskelios> mick_work: most people use one DVD or 1 CD + network
[23:07:43] <mick_work> well i was going to just set this up (since i'm still waiting on the sun hardware)
[23:07:52] <delewis> and besides installing from CD or DVD isn't the ideal installation method.
[23:08:01] <mick_work> Triskelios: ya, i cat'ed the 3 DVDs together
[23:08:10] <coffman> im still waiting on a sun laptop...
[23:08:28] <mick_work> the ideal thing would be a 12 MB mini iso that could do a net install
[23:08:45] <delewis> in any case, you don't need 'new' hardware to run Solaris. You just need proper hardware that has a decent amount of memory.
[23:08:58] <delewis> my peecee with 1GB of memory is capable of running Solaris acceptably.
[23:09:04] <mick_work> something short of a cray
[23:09:11] <delewis> mick_work: bullshit.
[23:09:41] <delewis> 768MB of memory is not a lot. That'll buy you an X11 server, Firefox, and a gnome-terminal, nowadays.
[23:10:04] <boyd_> (esp if you stop webconsole)
[23:10:05] * boyd_ ducks
[23:10:06] * Berny is running a turion64 1.8ghz with 1gb ram
[23:10:07] <delewis> and those are all independent of Solaris.
[23:10:30] *** boyd_ is now known as boyd
[23:10:54] <Triskelios> I think these days, Firefox uses about half the memory on any given system irrespective of the total RAM...
[23:11:03] <mick_work> Berny: same (on another box)
[23:11:11] <boyd> Only half? You aren't trying.
[23:11:15] <mick_work> lol
[23:11:18] <mick_work> true true
[23:11:19] <jarv> memory is cheap tho! :)
[23:11:26] <delewis> it is.
[23:11:28] <Auralis> nah, normaly ff crashes before using up more then a gig
[23:11:51] <delewis> well, if you're using flash-plugin. :-)
[23:12:02] <delewis> Firefox seems to be stable, otherwise.
[23:12:11] <mick_work> 47%... /me hopes this won't crash
[23:12:29] * boyd closes firefox "You are about to close 104 tabs. Are you sure you want to continue?"
[23:13:55] <delewis> there's something to be said for using a serial terminal, as I'm doing now. :-)
[23:14:54] <boyd> Heh... FF hung on the way down :)
[23:15:09] * Berny just ordered a usb-serial-adapter
[23:15:10] <mick_work> you know - it isn't ff's fauilt
[23:15:15] <Triskelios> Firefox and Beryl compete daily for my swap
[23:15:23] <Berny> finally use the ferrari as serial console :-)
[23:15:27] <mick_work> we use like 100+ tabs (you aren't the only one)
[23:15:34] <boyd> mick_work: You're right, I blame the parents
[23:15:37] <mick_work> haha
[23:15:48] <Berny> :>
[23:16:00] <mick_work> seriously though, imagine *100* tabs
[23:16:03] <Berny> it's all due to drunk coders using that penguin 8-)
[23:16:18] <delewis> part of Firefox's problem is GTK.
[23:16:25] <boyd> I don' thave to imagine it
[23:16:28] <delewis> all gtk/glib apps are inherently broken.
[23:16:54] <delewis> so should you write a very clean app using gtk/glib, it doesn't matter how 'clean' your code is. You're still using gtk/glib.
[23:17:27] <delewis> (do a dtrace to find out which syscalls Firefox is executing, then do aggregate on a ustack() -- it's all caused by gtk/glib)
[23:18:06] <delewis> gtk/glib has the most horrible way of doing events/callbacks.
[23:18:36] <boyd> How's that?
[23:18:41] <delewis> (ioctl a socket created by the X11 server for the number of bytes to be read, read them, and do this hundreds of times/second over and over again)
[23:18:50] <delewis> there are much more efficient ways to do callbacks with X11.
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[23:19:35] <Triskelios> delewis: hm, don't a lot of other toolkits do something similar?
[23:19:42] <delewis> Triskelios: nope.
[23:19:54] <delewis> gtk/glib seem fairly unique in this respect.
[23:20:03] <delewis> Motif does something different from what I've observed.
[23:20:05] <boyd> I dont' know much about X programming... can you not so a poll or select or something?
[23:20:16] <boyd> s/not so/not/do
[23:20:21] <boyd> err
[23:20:23] <delewis> boyd: yep, you don't even need to do the ioctl to figure how many bytes to read..
[23:20:36] <delewis> but gtk/glib do this, and thus all gtk/glib apps do this.
[23:20:41] <coffman> i dont know, 219mb for xfce and a gnometerm, 32mb root, 11 mb daemon - that seems so wrong to me
[23:21:23] <Berny> gnometerm is a hog by itself
[23:21:52] <delewis> gnome-terminal has some very annoying defaults, IMO (like ^? for erase)
[23:22:01] <Stric> The Sil3114 driver in (open)solaris isn't available for SPARC, right?
[23:22:37] <Pietro_S> coffman: why gnometerm? xfce term is not enough for you?
[23:22:40] <boyd> delewis: PErsonally that's the way I like it
[23:22:51] <Triskelios> Stric: yeah, it's in the intel tree
[23:22:54] <delewis> boyd: really, why?
[23:22:58] <boyd> leave ^H for a control char to, you know, control things
[23:23:13] <Auralis> rxvt ftw! :)
[23:23:16] <coffman> i think there is no sil3112/4 does not have a driver... its plain old ide
[23:23:30] <delewis> anything but gnome-terminal :-)
[23:23:38] <Auralis> true
[23:23:41] <coffman> Pietro_S: eeeh, xfce term consumes more memory
[23:23:43] <Triskelios> coffman: it has some quirks, ata has special handling for it
[23:23:44] <delewis> I alternate between dtterm, xterm, and rxvt on most days.
[23:23:55] <Triskelios> coffman: it *might* work anyway
[23:23:58] <delewis> dtterm has some of the best vt100 emulation, IMO.
[23:24:09] <boyd> It
[23:24:12] <boyd> It's fast too
[23:24:33] <boyd> I hate looking at botmap fonts these days
[23:24:34] <Pietro_S> coffman: ? are you sure? Do you have disabled that fancy candy eyes?
[23:24:38] <boyd> and bitmap too
[23:25:01] <coffman> Triskelios: we tried it on a e420r with 10 1/06, does not work....
[23:25:47] <Triskelios> coffman: hm, that's too bad
[23:26:04] <Triskelios> I wonder why sparc has a completely different ata driver
[23:26:05] <coffman> dunno about sx
[23:26:18] <coffman> Triskelios: yeah that was one point
[23:26:29] *** mikefut has joined #opensolaris
[23:26:46] <boyd> Historical insanity IIRC
[23:27:08] *** Pietro_S has left #opensolaris
[23:28:16] <Triskelios> there's been far too much of that
[23:28:26] <coffman> no eye candy on (no option i see) - gnome terminal 20mb, xfce terminal 29 mb
[23:29:32] <delewis> xterm is using 3MB of rss at the moment. :-)
[23:29:43] <coffman> pff
[23:30:00] <Auralis> my rxvt 2mb :)
[23:30:33] <boyd> Remember that gnome-terminal shares one proc for all the terminals (which is great when it crashes)
[23:31:26] <delewis> gnome-terminal in Solaris 10 seems pretty stale.
[23:31:28] <delewis> er, stable.
[23:31:31] <coffman> i found it quite ugly that the recent gnome terminal bug was all over the system, it was on xterm and also xfce term
[23:31:31] <delewis> stale, too :-)
[23:31:38] <delewis> I don't think I've seen it crash, yet.
[23:32:14] <coffman> no crash here also, but it sucks on certain things...
[23:32:30] <delewis> scrolling? :-)
[23:33:06] <coffman> encoding and so on
[23:33:07] <boyd> It's slow, but the one in SX is a 100 times faster than the one in s10
[23:33:48] <delewis> ah, I haven't used SX lately.
[23:34:08] <delewis> well nowhere but my laptop, but I'm using mwm and dtterm there, rather than the Gnome stack.
[23:34:16] <boyd> For the s10 version I have a couple of other faviorite bugs...
[23:34:27] <coffman> i stoped using solaris 10...
[23:34:47] <delewis> such as when you accidently resize your terminal and can't get it back to the standard 80x25? :-)
[23:35:01] <coffman> im not in *production* atm
[23:35:13] <delewis> coffman: I consider my workstation "production", so... Solaris 10 there.
[23:35:35] <delewis> the only reason I'm using SX on my laptop is that it supports my Tadpole's PS2 keyboard without the Tadpole drivers.
[23:36:35] <boyd> delewis: or when you make a new "profile", change the settings and find that it's made all you existing terminals us the new profile
[23:36:47] <coffman> x86 only here atm...
[23:37:12] <steleman> !seen nrubsig
[23:37:15] <Drone> nrubsig is currently online in #opensolaris and last spoke on Mon 03 Sep 2007 21:07 GMT, saying 'erm wrong win'.
[23:37:26] <steleman> nrubsig: ping!
[23:42:09] <mick_work> so if i setup a jumpstart server - will i be able to do it for both opensolaris and solaris?
[23:42:34] <delewis> you'll be able to do it for Solaris, yes.
[23:42:44] <mick_work> ok cool
[23:42:47] <coffman> tomww: urxvt?
[23:45:17] <steleman> any OpenSolaris Project Leaders(TM) around ?
[23:46:34] <nrubsig> steleman: pong!
[23:46:51] <steleman> nrubsig: do you know how to unhide an opensolaris project ?
[23:47:02] <nrubsig> steleman: you have to email eric boutillier
[23:47:06] <steleman> ohhh
[23:47:10] <steleman> okies thank you!
[23:47:13] <steleman> had no clue how to do it
[23:47:14] <steleman> :-)
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[23:47:45] <nrubsig> steleman: unhiding is done fromhow in the parent hieracy and AFAIK the site admins own that thing.
[23:47:50] *** rikochet has joined #opensolaris
[23:48:08] <steleman> nrubsig: i thought it must be something like that after looking for the "unhide project" button and not finding it :-)
[23:48:47] <nrubsig> nah
[23:48:58] <nrubsig> steleman: the web site software sucks a bit.
[23:50:05] <nrubsig> steleman: is it possible that you could subscribe as putback sponsor somehow ?
[23:50:15] <moazamraja> moron
[23:50:16] <moazamraja> oops
[23:50:19] <moazamraja> wrong window :P
[23:50:20] <moazamraja> shit :P
[23:50:32] <steleman> well i am a Project Leader right now but still can't unhide the project
[23:50:37] <nrubsig> moazamraja: two points for innovative language in this channel.
[23:50:42] <moazamraja> (i was replying in another window to:     <Tricky> ey does Safeway sell CD-R's?   )
[23:50:57] <steleman> Safeway only sells CD+R's
[23:51:01] <steleman> :-P
[23:51:04] <nrubsig> steleman: yeah, but unhiding involves editing a document which you don't own...
[23:51:26] <steleman> nrubsig: i figured it would involve someone else
[23:51:29] <steleman> :-)
[23:51:37] <moazamraja> he's right near a Frys
[23:52:29] <boyd> Oh it's a *holiday* in the US... no wonder it's so quiet
[23:52:42] <moazamraja> feels good...a holiday.
[23:53:10] <wesolows> haha holiday
[23:53:13] <nrubsig> PSARC 2007/666 Depreciate holidays and weekends.
[23:53:22] <wesolows> well, it's true; I'm working only 6 or 7 hours today instead of 11
[23:53:27] <wesolows> deprecate
[23:53:30] <wesolows> not depreciate
[23:53:33] <wesolows> completely different words
[23:53:53] <wesolows> (I wouldn't normally lay into you for this, but many native english speakers make this error too and it's a pet peeve)
[23:53:54] <flyingparchment> holidays have already been depreciated, there's no many of them
[23:53:55] <boyd> Yes, thank you wesolows. That bugs me
[23:54:02] <flyingparchment> s/no/so
[23:54:20] <nrubsig> wesolows: what is a "pet peeve" ?
[23:54:36] <jbk> flyingparchment: only if you work for the government or a bank
[23:54:44] <flyingparchment> wesolows: your a grammer nazi?
[23:54:52] <wesolows> nrubsig: some relatively minor thing that really just makes you angry
[23:54:55] <wesolows> flyingparchment: die
[23:55:18] <rikochet> lol at "YOUR a grammar nazi"
[23:55:26] * boyd suspecst that nrubsig has a menagerie of peeves
[23:55:35] <wesolows> that's what earned the "die" response, yes
[23:55:45] <flyingparchment> rikochet: i do believe that was the joke (as well as the spelling of grammar)
[23:55:54] <wesolows> grammar is correct
[23:55:56] <rikochet> I hadn't even noticed the spelling
[23:56:03] <rikochet> but, yes, it was incorrect
[23:56:04] <flyingparchment> wesolows: yes, but i said 'grammer'
[23:56:09] <nrubsig> flyingparchment: I hope wesolows doesn't have german ancestors.
[23:56:11] <wesolows> so you did
[23:56:23] <wesolows> nrubsig: I'm sure I did at some point.
[23:56:26] <rikochet> like "huked on fonix helpz mee wit meye grammer"
[23:56:50] <wesolows> anyway, this is not a grammatical problem as deprecate and depreciate are the same part of speech.
[23:57:04] <wesolows> they just have completely unrelated meanings
[23:57:11] <rikochet> I prefer defunct.
[23:57:24] <wesolows> defunct implies that it won't work
[23:57:35] <wesolows> deprecated means something very similar to obsolete plus discouraged
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[23:57:40] <rikochet> I realize that
[23:57:51] <rikochet> but many things that are deprecated are defunct
[23:57:53] <rikochet> ^-^
[23:58:00] *** deather__ is now known as deather
[23:58:18] <coffman> its holidays again?
[23:58:19] <coffman> wtf
[23:58:46] <rikochet> Labor day
[23:58:47] <rikochet> I had work.
[23:58:49] <rikochet> It failed.
[23:59:18] * boyd always thought it should be called "no labour day" but he understands the point
[23:59:23] * rikochet erm
[23:59:26] *** bnitz has left #opensolaris
[23:59:42] <boyd> Plus, that would inconvenience pregnant women too much :)





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