[00:00:18] <FunkyELF> http://www.opensolaris.org/jive/thread.jspa?threadID=38099&tstart=0
[00:00:19] <CIA-16> cth: 6594740 vhci_failover_modopen leaks "ddi-forceload" property
[00:00:20] <CIA-16> cth: 6594969 path oriented rebind code needs to protect nexus parent from detach
[00:00:20] <CIA-16> prasad: 6505165 pciehpc looking for _SUN on the wrong node, 6525527 pciehpc doesn't do pcie native hotplug
[00:00:39] <FunkyELF> so build 70 didn't fix the SSE problem either
[00:00:56] <FunkyELF> would this be fixed in any of the other "distros" of open solaris?
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[00:04:57] <boyd> Morning, all
[00:06:52] <richlowe> FunkyELF: it could be, if they're building with the older as(1)
[00:07:04] <richlowe> though the gate was building with the right (snv_14) as, until fairly recently.
[00:07:55] <FunkyELF> gate?
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[00:12:09] <brendang> boyd: G'Day
[00:12:18] <jmcp> morning all
[00:12:34] <boyd> Hey brendang
[00:12:56] <jbk> hello
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[00:14:31] <eboutilier_> alanc: ping
[00:14:39] <alanc> eboutilier_: pong
[00:15:03] <eboutilier_> Hey, just wondering if this bug fix:
[00:15:10] <eboutilier_> http://bugs.opensolaris.org/bugdatabase/view_bug.do?bug_id=6580728
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[00:15:37] <FunkyELF> would ZFS be more stable on Belenix vs Solaris Express?
[00:15:38] <eboutilier_> Will fix the problem I'm having with Intel 945G graphics... Here's a pastebin of some error lines:
[00:15:59] <eboutilier_> http://pastebin.com/d693fa1a9
[00:16:43] <eboutilier_> It's not a huge problem, Xorg works, but I"m stuck w/ 1600x1200 @65 resolution
[00:16:55] <alanc> that looks more like a problem with the agpgart kernel driver, but I don't know enough about the Xorg driver <-> agpgart interaction to say
[00:17:15] <tomww> FunkyELF: why should it make a diffecence, if belenix and the other distros use the same bits?
[00:17:21] <alanc> someone from the beijing video team would know better than I
[00:17:50] <alanc> I do love that error message though "(II) I810(0): Oh dear, the back buffer failed - badness"
[00:17:58] <FunkyELF> tomww, well doesn't FreeBSD use the same ZFS bits but it is considered experimental on there
[00:18:03] <eboutilier_> :)
[00:18:38] <eboutilier_> Thanks, would you recommend I ping the Beijing folks via x-win-discuss or drivers-discuss (other?)
[00:19:56] <alanc> I don't know if they follow any of the opensolaris lists unfortunately
[00:20:37] <richlowe> try xwin-discuss or desktop-discuss, and have alanc berate them into using the right (opensolaris.org) lists. :)
[00:20:44] <tomww> FunkyELF: Belenix and OpenSolaris share all basic parts of the OS, FreeBSD is a bit far away form that - the ZFS bits are compiled on FreeBSD with some intefaceing code to hav eZFS fit into FreeBSD
[00:21:03] <tomww> eboutilier_: Hi  eric :-)
[00:21:12] <eboutilier_> Hi tomww
[00:21:15] <alanc> yeah, if you mail xwin-discuss, I can forward it asking them to respond there
[00:21:43] <FunkyELF> so, if I can't use Solaris Express (because of the SSE issue I'm having), which other "distro" is the most mature?  Nextenda?  Belenix?
[00:22:37] <nivox> FunkyELF: the last releases of Nexenta have the SSE issue too
[00:23:46] <eboutilier_> alanc: Hm, the think is, I'll probably get a PCI Express graphics card for this thing anyway, but given the ubiquity of GMA graphics, I'd hate to see it not work flawlessly.
[00:24:57] <FunkyELF> nivox, thanks for saving me a download.....what about belenix?  think that has the SSE issue too?
[00:25:11] <eboutilier_> alanc: Cool, I'll post to xwin-discuss. Thanks.
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[00:25:36] <tomww> hmmm. the belinx site reads somting about sse... http://www.genunix.org/distributions/belenix_site/?q=news
[00:26:01] <richlowe> the SSE problem is most likely 6332924
[00:26:27] <richlowe> whoever is building the stuff can work around it, as described there.
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[00:27:40] <nivox> FunkyELF: I don't know anything about belenix
[00:28:00] <FunkyELF> Does Beryl work on OpenSolaris?  Is that what's on the screenshot of the Belenix site?
[00:29:10] <alanc> FunkyELF: yes, compiz & beryl both work
[00:29:38] <nachox> FunkyELF, http://whacked.net/2007/08/14/compiz-on-solaris-goodness/
[00:31:31] <nachox> alanc, do you know if those will work with the new xorg in solaris 10 u4? i'm guessing gnome might have problems?
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[00:33:18] <alanc> nachox: haven't tried it - you'ld need nvidia, since Intel DRI isn't in U4, and you'ld have to provide your own libXcomposite, since we haven't backported that to S10 either
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[00:33:50] <alanc> but the Xorg server should be pretty much the same as nv_68 or so
[00:34:42] * boyd can't see the name Beryl without thinking of someone's grandmother
[00:36:33] <Gman> GAR, MY CAPSLOCK IS STUCK AGAIN...SIGH.
[00:36:39] <asyd>  /kick
[00:36:47] <Gman> ;)
[00:36:59] <jmcp> Gman: YOU CAN HAS CASPLOCK KEY KTHXBAI?
[00:37:04] * Gman types some random text, and it unsticks - weird though, it's definitely a software issue
[00:37:21] <richlowe> I blame alanc.
[00:37:26] <richlowe> assuming it only affects X
[00:37:26] <Gman> yeah
[00:37:36] <Gman> it only started a few days ago
[00:37:53] <richlowe> for a start, root causing bugs to people, rather than code, is far more fun ;)
[00:38:59] <e^ipi> Gman: someone was in here a while ago complaining that gnomes accessibility libs broke some stuff after he played with the onscreen keyboard
[00:39:04] <e^ipi> dunno if he filed it
[00:39:12] <e^ipi> could be the same thing
[00:39:22] <Gman> e^ipi, yeah, i was wondering whether it was related to me playing around with gok the other day
[00:40:34] * Gman wipes out a whole bunch of gconf key values
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[00:51:35] <brendang> hmm. would I get into trouble if I called a kernel write buffer variable, "wuffer"?
[00:52:00] <brendang> cscope: Could not find the C symbol: wuffer
[00:52:05] <brendang> seems there for the taking....
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[00:53:55] <jmcp> brendang: wiffle
[00:55:02] <boyd> Gman: xmodmap -e "clear lock"  <- disable Caps Lock the way the gods intended :)
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[00:56:55] <richlowe> boyd: setxkbmap -option ctrl:nocaps
[00:57:50] <Gman> maybe i need a button on my panel to execute it, because i can't type it into a terminal :)
[00:57:58] <boyd> richlowe: Hmm... haven't played with that... any reson to reccommend one over the other?
[00:58:09] <boyd> Gman: Copy and paste one char at a time :)
[00:58:13] <Gman> heh
[00:58:21] <richlowe> boyd: the setxkbmap thing makes both capslock and control be control.
[00:58:28] <richlowe> boyd: with less typing required than doing it via xmodmap
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[01:00:01] <boyd> Ok, so does that happen earlier in the pipe than the xmodmap stuff?
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[01:01:42] <boyd> (also setxkbdmap won't help with Xsun it seems
[01:02:44] <alanc> setxkbmap would help with Xsun if you ran Xsun with +kb and if we actually shipped setxkbmap
[01:03:06] <alanc> but we can't ship setxkbmap, because then rich would have nothing to complain to me about
[01:03:27] <Gman> brrr, it's happening pretty regularly, but i have no idea what's causing it
[01:03:34] <alanc> (well, anything I can fix - I can't fix bugster)
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[01:09:00] <boyd> alanc: lol
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[01:13:13] <richlowe> alanc: that's unfair, man.
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[01:15:53] <Gman> alanc, seriously though, you have any idea what might be screwing with my keyboard? I can't see anything obvious from the process list :/
[01:16:44] <alanc> having one of the accessibility settings turned on (stickykeys or something like that) is the only thing I can think of
[01:16:57] <Gman> yeah, same
[01:17:32] * Gman restarts x
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[01:19:55] <alanc> heh...think there was a translation error in the status report from our china driver team: "Edward is on his maternity leave"
[01:20:14] <Gman> grr, now my fonts are screwed.
[01:20:31] <jmcp> alanc: I saw an email from Beijing last week reporting that somebody had "upgraded to a dad"
[01:20:39] <jmcp> nice way of putting it, It hought
[01:21:26] <nachox> men have maternity leave? :)
[01:21:46] <palowoda> Shesh just went JAVA was about to take over: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PQbuyKUaKFo
[01:21:51] <SYS64738> does anyone know if exist a pkg for greypost (postfix greylisting) ?
[01:22:36] <palowoda> s/went/about when/
[01:22:46] <alanc> nachox: only when you've failed to teach non-native speakers that maternity is a gender-specific word in English
[01:23:37] <Triskelios> SYS64738: we use postgrey, it's a simple script...
[01:23:57] <bubbva> alanc: spoken chinese, IIRC, doesn't do much in the way of gender specifics. They don't even have an equivalent to he or she. just it.
[01:24:01] <Stric> SYS64738: postgrey is easy and works fine
[01:26:43] <SYS64738> it's a script ?
[01:27:02] <Triskelios> bubbva: that's not the issue here, "maternity" has a specific meaning anyway
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[01:27:27] <Triskelios> SYS64738: yes, python
[01:27:44] <alanc> should just be paternity leave, since Sun does give that to new fathers
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[01:45:05] <SYS64738> Triskelios, does exist and example or howto to use postfix with postgrey ?
[01:45:47] <Triskelios> SYS64738: I think it comes with simple instructions
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[01:45:57] <dlg> jmcp: http://blogs.sun.com/webmink/entry/open_chips_wiki_open
[01:46:12] <jmcp> dlg: I know :)
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[01:46:26] <jmcp> I'm getting my wiki access upgraded a bit so I can add changes to that page
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[01:46:33] <jmcp> been talking with Simon about it too
[01:46:49] <dlg> am i able to edit too?
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[01:47:11] <jmcp> dlg: dunno - login and find out
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[01:47:22] <jmcp> hi Tpent1
[01:47:27] <Gman> dlg, yes - you can use your sun.com registration, and then apply for wiki permissions
[01:47:27] <jmcp> hi Tpenta, too
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[01:48:15] <Tpenta> morning james and glynn
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[01:50:15] <jmcp> heheheh ..
[01:50:24] * jmcp has Teh P0wah!
[01:50:53] <e^ipi> o_O
[01:51:23] <dlg> yay
[01:51:33] <e^ipi> hey glynn....
[01:51:52] <e^ipi> what're the criteria for travel subsidies for OS dev con. ?
[01:53:17] <Gman> e^ipi, in all honesty, we haven't thought that far ahead
[01:53:26] <e^ipi> fair enough then
[01:53:31] <Gman> though likely it'll be to make sure the people who are doing work will get them
[01:53:34] <Gman> like yourself
[01:53:44] <Gman> (or at least have priority)
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[01:55:22] <e^ipi> cool, i'll apply then
[01:55:29] <e^ipi> it'd be fun to come down to california
[01:55:43] <Gman> e^ipi, definitely\
[01:55:53] * bubbva hears that C&C Music Factory song in her head ....
[01:55:56] <bubbva> thanks jmcp
[01:57:01] <jmcp> sorry Val
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[01:58:14] <jbk> i need to save up a bit and go to a conference or two next year...
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[02:00:18] <CIA-16> tomee: 6304978 libumem comment has a typo, Contributed by Scott Heimer.
[02:00:19] <CIA-16> michen: 6514060 nscd consumes all the memory that it can, 6591680 users failed to log in at the first attempt but could log in at the second attempt
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[02:08:40] <jmcp> dlg: I've added tomatillo links into the wiki page
[02:09:17] <dlg> nice
[02:09:20] <richlowe> attempting to view the page now asks me to login.
[02:09:30] <dlg> i think the table is going to start being cumbersome soon
[02:09:32] <richlowe> so someone should copy the content to someplace less stupid.
[02:09:35] <richlowe> like genunix
[02:09:42] <dlg> richlowe: i didnt have to auth to see the page
[02:09:54] <richlowe> dlg: me neither, until just now.
[02:10:03] <jmcp> dlg: it's a bit difficult given that the requisite/relevant files are spread around a bit
[02:10:09] <richlowe> it now tells me it's SDN-only
[02:10:25] <dlg> jmcp: did you tick something you shouldnt have? ;)
[02:10:35] <jmcp> uh .... what?
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[02:10:48] <dlg> i have to auth to see the page too now
[02:10:57] <jmcp> bugger
[02:10:59] <jmcp> hmmmm
[02:11:11] <richlowe> a wiki you can't *see* without logging in is bloody stupid
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[02:11:18] <richlowe> so as I said, copy the content to the opensolaris wiki, which is not stupid :)
[02:11:28] <jmcp> richlowe: calm down for 2 secs would you
[02:12:52] <richlowe> hey, I'm currently looking at the membership benefits page :)
[02:12:59] <jmcp> weirdness
[02:13:18] <Gman> richlowe, i'm not really a fan of the wiki format though ;)
[02:13:20] <jmcp> I had to talk with Phillip Russell to get edit access ... perhaps he ticked something
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[02:13:26] <richlowe> 10% off t-shirts, though.
[02:13:35] <jmcp> the top or the bottom?
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[02:13:44] <richlowe> jmcp: hah.
[02:15:35] <jmcp> I've pinged him for details
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[02:20:47] <Tempt> Morning all.
[02:23:38] <SYS64738> buongiorno Tempt
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[02:24:54] <emealy> dlg: you there
[02:24:59] <dlg> emealy: yes
[02:25:20] <emealy> the shadow compilation is now off and gcc is the default but unfortunately its still using the solaris ld
[02:25:25] <emealy> any ideas how to tell it not to?
[02:25:34] <wesolows> that's not unfortunate, it's mandatory
[02:25:58] <emealy> mandatory?
[02:26:03] <wesolows> GNU ld lacks required features
[02:26:12] <emealy> so does my solaris 10 ld :D
[02:26:20] <wesolows> yes, you cannot build on S10
[02:26:21] <emealy> is there any way to tell it not to link?
[02:26:35] <emealy> thanks for the tip.. unfortunately I have to find a way to
[02:26:35] <wesolows> ummm...not really; what are you trying to do?
[02:26:59] <wesolows> building onnv on S10 does not work, will never work, and is basically impossible
[02:27:16] <emealy> excellent..
[02:27:17] <wesolows> if you have a business strategy based on being able to do so, I suggest you change your strategy
[02:28:04] <emealy> I'll talk to the powers that be and mention that :D... but we really don't need to get all the way down to assembler, and infact linking.. but we do need to have it running through a compiler
[02:28:21] <wesolows> or budget an enormous amount of time applying unsupported patch sets and one-off binary replacements on top of your S10 build until it happens to build, at which point you'll discover that it doesn't actually work.
[02:28:33] <wesolows> again, then, what are you trying to do?
[02:29:55] <Tempt> Why would building onnv with gcc be a business requirement?
[02:30:08] <emealy> hard to explain
[02:30:28] <Tempt> Should be pretty easy to explain.
[02:30:34] <wesolows> Tempt: That's easier to answer, actually - porting would be the obvious possibility.
[02:30:42] <wesolows> But you've gotta port the linker anyway...
[02:31:04] <Tempt> Porting Solaris to ARM to have a JavaPDA.
[02:31:35] <Tempt> That'd be nifty.
[02:31:42] <richlowe> and the differing sets of warnings gives it lint-like properties.
[02:31:46] <wesolows> s/nifty/pointless/
[02:31:51] <Nishaway> Merge GNU ld with Solaris ld?
[02:32:04] <wesolows> Nishaway: why?  GNU ld is all around inferior
[02:32:05] <Tempt> wesolows: How would it be less pointless than a linux PDA? Hmm?
[02:32:31] <wesolows> Did I say it would?
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[02:32:40] <Tempt> Sorry, s/less/more/
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[02:37:57] <Tempt> boyd: ping
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[02:43:32] <richlowe> Nishaway: it wouldn't help them in the least, either.
[02:43:39] <richlowe> there's far more barriers in the way than the older ld
[02:44:04] <richlowe> primarily, seemingly being unwilling to just do it properly.
[02:45:55] <Nishaway> Nexenta... can it do it as they use GCC?
[02:48:43] <nachox> can do what?
[02:50:18] <wesolows> the compiler is (by definition) not the problem
[02:50:31] <wesolows> the isolation in the proto area is imperfect
[02:50:55] <wesolows> and as a result there are many (unanalysed and unknown) dependencies on the build machine's environment
[02:51:23] <wesolows> there are dependencies on deliveries from SFW and JDS, at the very least
[02:51:28] <wesolows> some of which are known, more probably not
[02:51:37] <Nishaway> So S10 no, but SXCE... yes. Right?
[02:51:45] <wesolows> yes
[02:51:48] <wesolows> N-2
[02:51:56] <wesolows> you can build N on N, N-1, or N-2
[02:52:02] <wesolows> anything older, no guarantees
[02:52:29] <emealy> just a question how many behind N is S10?
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[02:52:49] <richlowe> it's an entirely different release.
[02:53:05] <wesolows> 73
[02:53:07] <richlowe> so at least 2 years.
[02:53:11] <emealy> yes but it is a shared code base..
[02:53:14] <emealy> that's what I thought..
[02:53:16] <richlowe> no, it isn't.
[02:53:18] <wesolows> no, it's not
[02:53:25] <richlowe> 10 and Nevada are entirely different source trees.
[02:53:30] <wesolows> S10 is 73 builds behind onnv_73
[02:53:38] <wesolows> 73 > 2
[02:53:39] <emealy> ok.. sorry... not quite what I meant to say..
[02:53:54] <richlowe> so 10 FCS is around 2.8 years behind Nevada.
[02:54:03] <wesolows> the updates are also 2.8 years behind
[02:54:14] <wesolows> because despite Sun management's best efforts, not everything is backported
[02:54:46] <nachox> that's why they came up with indiana :)
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[02:55:39] <richlowe> nachox: Yeah, because now they can delay real work with pointless arguments and give themselves time so they *can* get it all done.
[02:55:49] <richlowe> or, you know, you could pretend they don't exist and keep working.
[02:58:45] <nachox> richlowe, of course not, indiana was what "the customers were asking us to do"
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[02:59:13] <richlowe> No, it was "What some phantom pseudo-customers may wish for them to do"
[02:59:23] <richlowe> it's not about existing custom, it's about hypothetical future custom.
[02:59:24] <nachox> but of course since "were really open now, we had to make an opensolaris project for it"
[02:59:35] <richlowe> I'll believe "we're really open now" when I see it.
[03:00:39] <delewis> pseudo customers being teenagers trying out the latest Linux flavor of the week.
[03:00:55] <Tempt> If you had imaginary friends as a child, you'll love our new concept in business: imaginary customers.
[03:01:39] <delewis> and imaginary customers generate imaginary revenue.
[03:02:07] <Tempt> Remember daydreaming of have a spare million? That's how good imaginary revenue feels!
[03:02:31] <Auralis> JAVA! :)
[03:02:36] <delewis> until real bankruptcy comes along.
[03:02:41] <nachox> hehe, i would hate being a sun exec in this channel, no wonder they dont happen to be a lot here
[03:03:38] <brendang> maybe we can convince Jonathan to be the first IRC'ing CEO :)
[03:04:02] <Gman> brendang, that would be fun
[03:04:15] <wesolows> I'd have to un-voice myself
[03:04:20] <brendang> although, we might keep him away from doing real work
[03:04:36] <jbk> hmm.. now is there a way I can just grab this subdir and build it without having to copy over an entire copy of ON...
[03:04:51] <Gman> brendang, i bet he IM's already
[03:04:57] <Tempt> Yeah, if he was IRC'ing all day he wouldn't have time to rebrand to Java java java java JAVA java.
[03:05:47] <brendang> Tempt: ahh, didn't I see a rise in JAVA share price today? so far, so good :)
[03:06:13] <Tempt> I sold my Sun shares quite some time ago.
[03:06:20] <Tempt> For more than today's share price.
[03:06:38] <brendang> I've never had Sun shares.
[03:06:49] <Lusitanian> any info if future releases of Solaris will name their packages as JAVAckr instead of SUNWckr for example? :|
[03:06:56] <brendang> JAVA shares, sorry,.
[03:06:56] <Gman> brendang, not even options?
[03:06:59] <wesolows> that's the most FAQ
[03:07:06] <wesolows> and of course, no answer
[03:07:20] <wesolows> given how hard dependencies would be to cope with, my assumption is that nothing will change
[03:07:24] <brendang> Gman: maybe options - I dunno. I might have gotten such paperwork a while ago.
[03:07:37] <nachox> wesolows, is there any sun exec you actually like? :)
[03:07:38] <wesolows> but never underestimate the amount of money that can be found for incredibly pointless marketing work instead of useful engineering
[03:07:59] * Gman imagines a lot of the SUNW* package name foo will phase out with pkg
[03:08:04] <Lusitanian> would be funny to see something like JAVAcrk relate to "Core Solaris Kernel (Root)"
[03:08:09] <wesolows> nachox: I cannot comment directly on the conduct of anyone in my reporting chain.
[03:08:16] <Tempt> It'll be JAVAcrk.rpm
[03:08:28] <wesolows> Gman: Keep imagining.  How's that crack?
[03:09:05] <Gman> wesolows, uh, have you actually seen the code?
[03:09:55] <delewis> so now Solaris is aiming to be SVID non-compliant?
[03:09:57] <wesolows> No, but I don't need to.  S10 will be supported for years if not decades, during which time packages will continue to matter to Solaris customers.
[03:10:10] <delewis> will the Linuxisms ever cease.
[03:10:33] <jbk> hmm with ON, can I cd into a specific directory and just to make if I just want to build that particular piece?
[03:10:46] <richlowe> bldenv -dt <envfile>
[03:10:51] <richlowe> cd $SRC && dmake setup
[03:10:52] <richlowe> then, yes.
[03:11:33] <Gman> wesolows, phase out, not go away
[03:11:44] <Gman> but anyway, not going there until pkg gets out onto opensolaris.org
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[03:12:21] <jbk> hmm ok.. now I just need to get a copy of ON onto this test box (trying to do the makefile tweaks needed to get the new libdisasm building (i've been using my own make file in the meantime)
[03:12:51] <nachox> i doubt packages will be renamed, sun's java directory server packages are still called the same way iplanet packages used to be
[03:14:12] <Jerome71> are there indeed concrete plans now to replace pkgadd with rpm?
[03:14:19] <LeftWing> nachox: They've been renamed in DS6.X at least...
[03:14:19] <Gman> Jerome71, no
[03:14:47] <Jerome71> would be nonsense, *relieved*
[03:14:55] <delewis> pkgadd cannot be replaced if Solaris wishes to maintain whatever degree of SVID compliance it currently possesses. At the very least Sun will have to still provide the SVR4 package tools (as AIX does) to maintain that level of compliance.
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[03:15:54] <Jerome71> yeah, rather adding some of rpm's features to SVR4 pkgadd would be enough, and optimal
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[03:19:51] <Tempt> delewis: Aah, get rid of the SVR4 packages. The new customer base doesn't want to see anything other than "Synaptic Package Manager" anyway; they get confused when it doesn't look like Ubuntu.
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[03:20:40] <Tempt> delewis: Compliance is worthless. The people who care about that sort of thing aren't the audience that Sun is concerned about, and certainly not the OpenSolaris audience.
[03:20:54] <nachox> Tempt, see? you scared gman
[03:21:19] <Jerome71> Tempt: Why investing millions in Solaris then? If you intend to clone Linux it may be cheaper to take Linux ..., I ahte it
[03:21:20] <g4lt-sb100> why should gman be scared, it's his project that will drive the final nail in SVR4 packaging
[03:21:40] <wesolows> we should be investing a lot more in Solaris
[03:21:46] * delewis awaits Solaris Next == Ubuntu
[03:21:47] <wesolows> the more, the better
[03:21:52] <Tempt> Jerome71: That'd be admitting defeat.
[03:22:07] <jbk> i am curious, where in any project, discussion has anyone said 'we are ditching the SVR4 packaging' ?
[03:22:31] <g4lt-sb100> jbk the PI announcement
[03:22:31] <Jerome71> I hate Linux.
[03:22:32] <delewis> jbk: Gman 10 minutes ago.
[03:22:35] <nachox> wesolows, and less in what? marketing? they do quite bad already, they even needed to pull that sunw->java stunt
[03:22:42] <Tempt> Jerome71: That's a very bad attitude.
[03:22:51] <Tempt> Jerome71: I keep getting in trouble for saying things like that.
[03:22:54] <jbk> all i saw is a mention of package names
[03:22:54] <wesolows> but PI is an alternate distribution, it has nothing to do with Solaris
[03:23:24] <delewis> wesolows: not so according to some people, which say Indiana *could* become Solaris Next (check out indiana-discuss)
[03:23:26] <Tempt> wesolows: You're forgetting "Project Indiana - The Future of Solaris". Don't make me dig around to find the picture again.
[03:23:37] <delewis> Ian has stated on at least one occasion, that Solaris Next could be rolled from Indiana.
[03:23:45] <wesolows> nachox: Well, it's not really for me to disclose where we spend our money, but it seems obvious to me that there are a lot of people who don't contribute to the bottom line.
[03:24:04] <wesolows> delewis: He and Sun can say what they please; we control OpenSolaris.
[03:24:05] <Tempt> Given Ian's position, I'd say that'd mandate moving the packaging over to his .deb format
[03:24:15] <Jerome71> Tempt: Okay, let me rearticulate it: I do love choice
[03:24:17] <wesolows> delewis: If I have anything to say about it, Sun will have to fork to make that change.
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[03:24:43] <Tempt> Jerome71: The Linux way is the Right Way, the Linux Community is the Model To Aspire To.
[03:25:02] <nachox> Tempt, you know that even sarcasm has limits?
[03:25:24] <Tempt> nachox: Sarcasm has no limits.
[03:25:39] <jmcp> no, really?
[03:25:42] <jbk> i think you've taken some extremely poorly worded statements from the initial announcement and blown them way out of proportion
[03:25:47] <jbk> i mean really
[03:25:50] <delewis> http://blogs.sun.com/sdnchannel/
[03:25:58] <delewis> look at the latest installment of SDN channel.
[03:26:01] <delewis> classic.
[03:26:06] <Tempt> The thing is, Sun's leadership don't exactly paint a picture of level-headed thinking.
[03:26:11] <LeftWing> jbk: A lot of people have been (constantly, unendingly) doing that.
[03:26:18] <delewis> Tempt: you have got tosee that link I just pasted.
[03:26:22] <jbk> you think that if they did ditch all of that, broke compatability, etc. all the gloom and doom everyone keeps saying
[03:26:29] <delewis> if that's not level-headed, I don't know what is!
[03:26:35] <jbk> you think if they did that there wouldn't be a *huge* backlash?
[03:26:35] <Tempt> A lot of decisions come across as being pulled out at the last minute so everyone would have something to blog about.
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[03:26:58] <jbk> from everyone?
[03:27:11] <Tempt> The linux takeup has proven that people don't seem to care about backwards compatibility.
[03:28:17] <Jerome71> Some do
[03:28:18] <jbk> don't know about that, i think it's more of an education issue than anything
[03:28:28] <dlg> Tempt: its a different environment
[03:28:43] <Tempt> Okay, the linux takeup has proven that you can make money without caring about backwards compatibility.
[03:29:03] <wesolows> Tempt: You assume that every GNU/Linux customer is a happy one, and has had time to appreciate the ramifications of the engineering ethos present in that regime.
[03:29:06] <Jerome71> hmm, Unfortunately
[03:29:07] <g4lt-sb100> s/backwards compatibility/much useful/
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[03:29:55] <LeftWing> People who want to distribute closed source binary drivers, I dare say, aren't particularly enthused.
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[03:30:20] <wesolows> people who want to make software that works, full stop
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[03:31:49] <Tempt> A lot of purchasing is made in terms of solution. They pick (for example) Oracle on Linux and then they buy the specific RHEL release that Oracle specifies and deploy it on the Dell boxes and that'll stand until the hardware goes away
[03:32:11] <jbk> and once they start having bugs
[03:32:20] <Tempt> When the hardware is replaced the solution gets re-architected and they start again.
[03:32:25] <jbk> they run into abi hell
[03:32:41] <jbk> if they try to start patching either oracle or linux
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[03:32:45] <nachox> people hate having to pay more to fix software that used to work but doesnt any longer, and they are forced to do that in linux, things are improving a bit for them because the industry is asking them for longer support contracts
[03:33:34] <Tempt> I'm playing devil's advocate here, guys, I'm not actually building a case for linux.
[03:34:19] <Tempt> But I honestly think Sun could make a dog's breakfast of Solaris and change it into Linux with a different kernel and people will still pay up as long as Oracle/SAP/Sybase/IBM/etc, etc kept keeping it as a supported platform for their applications.
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[03:35:49] <Jerome71> Tempt: I'm going to kill you
[03:35:52] <jbk> but as for indiana, all i see so far is they want to take sx*, get rid of the bits that prevent end users from redistributing it legally, and make it easier to install/update over the internet, add in some better default .profile/.kshrc/etc. files for users, and I think that it will be a positive thing
[03:36:14] <LeftWing> jbk: Which, of course, it most likely will be.
[03:36:55] <Tempt> frankly I could care less about people playing with it on their desktops
[03:37:12] <delewis> desktop users != actual customers. period.
[03:37:27] <Tempt> It probably does a great disservice because the biggest complaints tend to be "old flash version" or "no mplayer" or "no codecs".
[03:37:32] <delewis> the majority of actual customers aren't interested in Solaris become the next great desktop OS (which it will never be).
[03:37:40] <wesolows> jbk: if that's all it is - an alternate distribution of OpenSolaris that doesn't supplant Solaris or attempty to change OpenSolaris, that's fine.  More power to them.
[03:37:42] <delewis> s/become/becoming/
[03:37:46] <nachox> delewis, i dont know up to what point i agree with that
[03:38:00] <jbk> wesolows: that's really all i've seen so far
[03:38:07] <jbk> i mean, i haven't read every thread
[03:38:20] <jbk> but the stuff i've seen isn't making me particularly worried
[03:38:25] <wesolows> The scope of their project varies greatly depending on who you ask, what you read, and when.
[03:39:04] <jbk> i do think ian not only put his foot but his whole leg in his mouth when he announced it...
[03:39:06] <wesolows> Of course, the best thing they could do is split off a number of useful subprojects that could be leveraged by ALL OpenSolaris distributions to fix various annoyances.
[03:39:12] <jbk> first impressions and such...
[03:39:17] <wesolows> But that doesn't seem to be in the cards.
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[03:39:23] <nachox> delewis, people tend to use what they feel more confortable with and they are used to their desktop environment so they might use something that looks like it as long as the performance is not that bad
[03:39:47] <Tempt> Perhaps Sun should have kept their Linux/JDS distribution and had a desktop product that didn't require so much effort and expense.
[03:40:02] <jbk> but stuff like the packaging bit i think are needed regardless -- and all i've seen so far is not 'we're gonna throw out X and replace it with Y' but so far all i've seen is 'here are the current problems, and here's what we need'
[03:40:08] <Tempt> People who need a familiar GNOME environment to get anything done are *not* Sun customers.
[03:40:24] <Tempt> Except in the Schwartz 12 year old girl playing java games on her phone = sun customer way
[03:40:44] <nachox> Tempt, solaris can become that desktop, SXCE is not that different from your regular linux distribution
[03:40:52] <Jerome71> side note: xine codecs are available from some firm (for ca. $20), x86 and sparc, including WM9 codec
[03:41:09] <delewis> nachox: developer effort is being wasted on making that happen.
[03:41:09] <Tempt> nachox: Oh, man, "SXCE is not that different from your regular linux distribution" -- that's really, really damning.
[03:41:17] <delewis> and lots of things are suffering from that.
[03:41:20] <Jerome71> SUNW, err JAVA could license them  ...
[03:41:21] <delewis> SPARC graphics, Xsun, etc.
[03:41:31] <delewis> because Sun no longer has resources for those departments.
[03:41:34] <jbk> Jerome71: but they'd have to charge
[03:41:55] <delewis> and those departments are far more important to existing customers than making Solaris the next desktop OS.
[03:41:56] <Tempt> Jerome71: No, because the push is everything must be freeeeeeeeee, and if they licensed codecs it wouldn't be freeeeeeeee.
[03:41:57] <jbk> though i suppose if it was a separate option, or somehow made it clear about how to get/the situation
[03:42:10] <Jerome71> jbk: at max a few millions
[03:42:13] <delewis> not to mention Sun Ray customers are currently being left out to dry.
[03:42:34] <delewis> I can name several fortune 500 companies that have dropped their Sun Ray deployments.
[03:42:37] <nachox> delewis, if sun had actually paying customers that wanted sparc graphics that bad, they would assign resources to that particular area
[03:42:43] <delewis> and a handful of .edu's
[03:42:59] <delewis> nachox: you're assuming Sun's management is sane and competent. It isn't.
[03:43:09] <delewis> The Pony is ruining the company. plain and simple.
[03:43:12] <nachox> and there are people working in the xorg sun ray port
[03:43:13] <Jerome71> Tempt: I agree, MS would never allow opening them up, at least not for a few millions
[03:43:35] <delewis> his strategy is basically this: lay off employees and announce $OPENSOURCEPRODUCTOFTHEWEEK
[03:43:48] <nachox> hehe
[03:43:53] <delewis> and re-nig on it 5 months later when no one is looking *cough* SRSS *cough*
[03:44:18] <jbk> i've always felt their biggest issue was communication -- the people out in the field don't always seem to do a good job of explaining what technology is available
[03:44:26] <LeftWing> delewis: So none of SRSS is going to be open-sourced then?
[03:44:38] <delewis> LeftWing: considering SRSS is no longer free, period, I'm skeptical.
[03:44:49] <LeftWing> delewis: Was it ever free?
[03:44:58] <delewis> you can't even use SRSS nowadays with paying a $50 RTU fee that has bundled support (too bad not getting support is no longer an option)
[03:45:01] <delewis> LeftWing: YES!
[03:45:03] <delewis> SRSS 3.x was free.
[03:45:14] <delewis> SRSS 4.x is no longer free to use with an RTU license for each DTU.
[03:45:19] <LeftWing> delewis: Well I'm using it anyway. =P
[03:45:42] <delewis> LeftWing: how many days do you have left on your 30-day trial?
[03:45:48] <delewis> you did read that its a 30-day trial, right?
[03:45:49] <nachox> hehe
[03:45:56] <LeftWing> delewis: What would I have to run to find out?
[03:46:01] <delewis> NFI.
[03:46:06] <delewis> I refuse to use SRSS 4.x
[03:46:10] <LeftWing> heh
[03:46:24] <LeftWing> I suspect that the 30-day trial is less concrete than people are imagining.
[03:46:31] <delewis> The Pony re-nigged on his promise to free Sun's software stack.
[03:46:48] <delewis> LeftWing: in that case, Sun is no longer conveying the image that they are trying to free their software stack and generate revenue from support.
[03:47:02] <nachox> Tempt, i meant when you looked at the over all user interface and available programs
[03:47:23] <LeftWing> delewis: To be honest, I can get from sun.com to the download centre area for SRSS without seeing a mention of a 30 day trial.
[03:47:24] <delewis> probably because they figured out it was an asinine business plan in the first place.
[03:47:28] <LeftWing> And it doesn't whine when I install it.
[03:47:32] <delewis> LeftWing: bullshit.
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[03:47:51] <delewis> http://www.sun.com/software/sunray/index.jsp
[03:47:55] <delewis> ok. 90-day trial.
[03:47:56] <delewis> my bad.
[03:48:15] <delewis> http://www.sun.com/software/sunray/get_trial.jsp
[03:48:21] <LeftWing> Oh, right.  Well I just clicked on "Get It" and then "Download".
[03:48:28] <delewis> "Try Sun Ray Software 4 free for 90 days. If you decide to deploy Sun Ray Software 4, click Buy It below to purchase right to use licenses."
[03:48:30] <delewis> note *right to use*
[03:48:31] <delewis> not support
[03:48:33] <delewis> *right to use*
[03:48:37] <delewis> meaning this software is *not* free.
[03:48:46] <nachox> it is a 90 day trial actually
[03:48:59] <nachox> ohh, said that already :)
[03:49:12] <Tempt> Perhaps Sun feels that if it makes the right moves in the Open Source community they'll be able to scrap their developers and just have a distro packaging group
[03:49:17] <Tempt> Save a lot of expense there
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[03:50:40] <delewis> and then I had some Sun employee in here tell me the other day how profitable Sun Rays are for Sun. Enough that Sun should have to start charging for SRSS again, right?
[03:50:46] <LeftWing> delewis: I can see that the site layout has changed, including the "90 day trial" language appearing, but I was always under the impression that it was a Support+RTU/DTU type license affair anyway and that I was ignoring it because I'm using it at home.
[03:51:08] <delewis> LeftWing: in any case, that's irrelevant. Sun is no longer conveying the image that SRSS is free to use.
[03:51:40] <LeftWing> Well I'm saying I don't think they were ever strictly conveying that image.
[03:51:48] <delewis> and Sun Ray customers are in a world of shit when Sun ceases to provide no lightweight desktop environment, but rather a heaping pile of applications with memory leaks that certain teams within Sun refuse to acknowledge.
[03:51:49] <Jerome71> Tempt: That's clearly the idea behind it, but are there chances to find enough interst from actual kernel engineers to continue working as before, just, cough, for freee??
[03:52:04] <delewis> LeftWing: read some of Jonathan's blog entries from 2 years ago.
[03:52:19] <Tempt> Jerome71: I think the belief from Sun's management is that if Linux could get a kernel for free, why can't Solaris?
[03:52:22] <delewis> his goal was to make all of Sun's software stack (as possible) free to use
[03:52:24] <LeftWing> delewis: The ones with "free for the asking" in them?
[03:52:26] <delewis> and generate revenue from support.
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[03:52:35] <delewis> he's failed.
[03:52:42] <delewis> SRSS 3.x was free to use.
[03:52:45] <delewis> SRSS 4.x is not.
[03:53:00] <delewis> STK Volume Replicator is being sold for $10k/TB.
[03:53:05] <delewis> *RTU*
[03:53:08] <Tempt> Jerome71: They've made the decision that quality and stability is less important than having right GNOME version, the right squishy desktop market and playing up to the esrs of this world.
[03:53:22] <nachox> delewis, post a comment in his blog? add a news at osnews? let's see how fast that changes
[03:53:23] <delewis> the mail portion of JES was unbundled and is now being sold with RTU licenses.
[03:53:29] <delewis> need I say more?
[03:53:36] <delewis> nachox: I emailed him 2 months ago.
[03:53:41] <delewis> received a response, but no action, obviously.
[03:53:56] <nachox> and the response was?
[03:54:01] <delewis> The Pony is off doing more important things like s/SUNW/JAVA/
[03:54:11] <Jerome71> Temp: There is a huge Linux hype, worldwide. Media are reproducing that stuff, always, everywhere. But many don't really embrace Solaris, because they just may not *know* enough about it.
[03:54:21] <delewis> nachox: he'd "look into it", admitted that it was an issue, and sees no reason why those products weren't free as Sun owns all of the IP involved.
[03:54:38] <LeftWing> delewis: "You can download the Communications Suite software to use for free from the Sun Java Communications Suite download site. You may choose to use all components, or only a few. Once you need assurance and support, Sun offers licensing and support plans for purchase."
[03:54:57] <nachox> delewis, just post something in the open, that is much more effective
[03:54:58] <delewis> LeftWing: note "licensing and support"
[03:55:17] <LeftWing> delewis: So the language is poor.
[03:55:18] <delewis> licensing and support implies RTU and support are seperate.
[03:55:51] <nachox> Jerome71, linux's thing is just hype, i've been in several interviews during the last few months, nobody even cares about my experience with linux
[03:55:54] <Tempt> LeftWing: There's wierd little limitations around the place - DS has a license requirement once you exceed a certain number of entries, SSGD is still licensed, etc, etc
[03:56:23] <delewis> and Sun fucking bought Tarantella.
[03:56:30] <delewis> they should own all the IP to make SSGD free.
[03:56:38] <Tempt> nachox: I can tell you a number of *large* organisations are using Linux because they buy into the hype *AND* because they've discovered the joy of disposably cheap Dell hardware.
[03:56:47] <delewis> but wait, doing so might kill Sun Ray deployments!
[03:56:58] <delewis> (those are already dying, but Sun apparently hasn't picked up on that)
[03:57:04] <Tempt> Perhaps Sun is keeping a couple of products for sale in the hope they might make a profit? Don't begrudge them the right to actually get some revenue from somewhere.
[03:57:11] <Tempt> I mean, like you'd pay for an SSGD support contract.
[03:57:22] <nachox> Tempt, i know of some that use it, but for workstations, nothing very mission criticak
[03:57:38] <Tempt> Sun can barely support simple hardware failures, the hell they'll do anything with application problems.
[03:58:17] <Tempt> nachox: Well, perhaps things are different around here.
[03:58:38] <Tempt> Anyway, I'm off to have some dee-licious lunch
[03:58:49] <Tempt> The only Sun I'll be concerned with is the fusion powered one.
[03:59:15] <Jerome71> delwis: I partially agree with you. Sun isn't truly backing sparc anymore. Running Solaris11 on older sparc platforms is almost a pain now (speed). Are the Studio11(and before 10) compilers generating amchine code, that would exute slower on low-clocked  cpu's? Or is some single scheduler setting to be blamed?
[03:59:55] <jamesd> Tempt, really? that is strange...  i just had a vendor out after having  hardware problems and the box never rebooted or hick upped  nothing even complained about the hardware failure.
[04:00:09] <jamesd> actually 4 different boxes..
[04:00:33] <nachox> jamesd, what was the hardware problem?
[04:00:33] <alanc> Sun is backing SPARC on servers, especially Niagara ones...on the desktop, well, no comment
[04:00:36] <jamesd> Jerome71, strange sun and fujitsu just released 6 new boxes.
[04:00:45] <delewis> Jerome71: no clue, but SPARC is a second-class citizen from my experience. Despite what I've heard, I still doubt the JDS team actually tests very often on SPARC (the trash applet has been broken for roughly 50 releases, yet the JDS team doesn't seem to think so).
[04:00:52] <jamesd> nachox, two bad cpus,  one 1 per box, and  6 bad dimms.
[04:01:08] <delewis> and hence why me and Tempt keep telling you guys that Sun is fucking its existing customers. hard.
[04:01:17] <nachox> Jerome71, btw, solaris will run slowly in 10 years old hardware, as will windows or linux or aix, anything
[04:01:19] <jamesd> m4000-m8000...     new sun sparc gear.
[04:01:54] <delewis> jamesd: that's Fujitsu gear.
[04:02:19] <jamesd> delewis, its a partneership
[04:02:30] <jamesd> untill... rock comes out.
[04:03:02] <Jerome71> jamesd: I said on legacy boxes (if you really wanna call something "legacy" that sold until a year or so) I'm well aware of current developments like Olympus, Niagara1, Niagara2, Rock. Well aware.
[04:03:06] <nachox> fujitsu gear should have been out ages ago
[04:03:09] <delewis> you might not think the trash applet being broken is a "bad thing", but when you're demoing Solaris and the user notices the trash applet doesn't work, they logically begin to wonder what else is broken if something so obviously simple can be broken.
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[04:03:30] <delewis> jamesd: I'll believe Rock when I see it. Until then, IBM is dominating that segment of the market with POWER6.
[04:03:33] <jamesd> http://www.sun.com/servers/index.jsp?cat=Sun%20Fire%20High-end%20Servers&tab=3  the top 2 boxes have sun labels on them
[04:04:00] <delewis> jamesd: and the M9000 outperforms the E25K for most workloads I've seen.
[04:04:03] <nachox> delewis, SXDE and SXCE are beta, they are cool and mostly work but they are far from perfect
[04:04:38] <jamesd> delewis, and why shouldn't it?  more ram... faster cpus.
[04:04:55] <alanc> we have a trash applet?   don't think I've ever seen it (but then I don't use the gnome file manager much)
[04:04:56] <jamesd> and most likely faster cpus
[04:05:13] <jamesd> er  faster ram
[04:05:28] <nachox> alanc, ubuntu started that trend, i personally hate it
[04:06:59] <Jerome71> jamesd: Is IIi (a.k.a IIe+) still usable under S11?  You run start the boot before going to bed, if you want to write an email next morning. That IIi (IIe+) cpu is still not EOL.
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[04:07:37] <jamesd> Jerome71, yes, everything from II onward works fine.. thus my happy little  Sun Ultra 2, with dual 300mhz  usparcII cpus :-)
[04:07:43] <Jerome71> s/run/can
[04:08:26] <Jerome71> It works, but the kernel seems not optimized for it.
[04:08:31] <jamesd> in fact i prefer my u2,  to a blade 150, even though it has newer faster cpus... IIi  i beleve.
[04:08:53] <jamesd> well the blade 150, has a single cpu,  650mhz.
[04:08:55] <LeftWing> Blades have IIe's, don't they?
[04:09:01] <LeftWing> (100/150, that is)
[04:09:15] <delewis> one has a IIi and the other has IIe, IIRC.
[04:09:19] <jamesd> not sure... i use mine as little as possible, it sits on my disk...
[04:09:28] <Jerome71> yes, but mrkt. folks rebranded it as IIi
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[04:10:04] <Jerome71> e stands for "embedded", 'i' for "integrated"
[04:10:04] <nachox> USII were released 11 years ago IIi was released 10 years ago
[04:10:05] <delewis> Jerome71: I think there are some small technical differences between them, besides the obvious clock speed increase.
[04:10:11] <jamesd> i only use it for doing testing for 10, the rest of the is done on a primepower  250  ... the login box at my work
[04:10:13] * delewis had the IIe technical docs around
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[04:10:39] <Jerome71> delewis: IIe --> 0.18 AL
[04:10:50] <Jerome71> IIi --> 0.18 CU
[04:10:59] <Jerome71> IIe 256K L2
[04:11:17] <Jerome71> IIi: 512k L2 (both on die)
[04:11:24] <delewis> in any case the IIe seems acceptable for what I do on my Tadpole.
[04:11:34] <jamesd> and the II has  2,4 or 8MB  of l2 cache.
[04:11:35] <Jerome71> most of the rest (including embedded pci controller) is identical
[04:11:56] <Jerome71> mem interface should also be identical (PC100)
[04:12:26] <Jerome71> pin-compatible
[04:12:42] <Jerome71> You can replace any IIe with a Ii, and it will work.
[04:13:06] <Jerome71> Another difference: The IIe supports a max of 2048MB mem
[04:13:14] <Jerome71> the IIi doubles that.
[04:13:47] <jamesd> now if i could just find a way to cram  4GB into u2... that would rock, even more life for the old boy.
[04:13:55] <Jerome71> You *can* put a IIi 650MHz into some Blade 100 from 2001
[04:14:23] <Jerome71> jamesd: You can, at least, put Dual 400MHz into it  :-)
[04:14:25] <jamesd> Jerome71, and it still pretty much sucks unless you put in a scsi channel or two... for decent IO
[04:14:38] <Jerome71> yeah ...
[04:14:41] <jamesd> Jerome71, yeah i'm on the lookout for a pair of cheap 400's..
[04:14:57] <Jerome71> $10 each ...
[04:15:03] <Jerome71> (on ebay)
[04:15:10] <delewis> Jerome71: nope, IIe supports 4GB.
[04:15:14] <Jerome71> If you are patient.
[04:15:34] <jamesd> where.. i keep seeing them for $50 or more each...   but i have seen a couple dual 400 u2's go for about $100 plus shipping.
[04:15:39] <Jerome71> delewis?? Who says that? I doubt that.
[04:15:52] <delewis> Jerome71: you want an OBP banner?
[04:16:00] <delewis> I've got a Tadpole here with IIe and 4GB of memory.
[04:16:37] <delewis> http://farm1.static.flickr.com/125/381112615_b72fad25bb_b_d.jpg
[04:17:04] <Jerome71> I ahve to type that link manually, wait a sec
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[04:19:41] <Jerome71> I get server not resolved ... mmh
[04:20:11] <jamesd> Jerome71, it works here...
[04:20:37] <delewis> http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=381112615&context=set-72157594511620201&size=l
[04:20:48] <delewis> flickr is being silly it seems.
[04:21:16] <Jerome71> nope, I can't open it, How many MHz does it have?
[04:21:24] <delewis> 650
[04:21:28] <Jerome71> That's the key question
[04:21:48] <Jerome71> Not the real IIe   :-))
[04:21:55] <delewis> the OBP banner says so.
[04:21:59] <delewis> I'll take it over you.
[04:22:00] <Jerome71> Copper technology
[04:22:21] <Jerome71> Hey Derek, James: Martin here, after a long break.
[04:22:43] * boyd would like to file "lucopy should use star with --no-fsync to save a *lot* of time"
[04:22:44] <Jerome71> I just connected via the web interface on opensolaris.org
[04:23:13] <delewis> boyd: star can be ugly without --no-fsync :-)
[04:23:22] <delewis> Jerome71: Bochnig?
[04:23:30] <Jerome71> delewis, jamesd: I jumped in via http://www.opensolaris.org/os/chat/
[04:23:42] <boyd> delewis: Yes, and *with* it it's faster than the cpio that's used right now
[04:23:56] <delewis> boyd: yup.
[04:24:01] <Jerome71> It's the first time I join this IRC after almost half a year.
[04:24:14] <boyd> welcome back
[04:24:29] <Jerome71> Thanks
[04:24:34] <Jerome71> hi
[04:25:23] <jamesd> Jerome71, awesome, perhaps i will be able to  connect from work from time to time... only  http and https are alowed out through our proxies, and firewalls.
[04:25:55] <Jerome71> Java isn't all that bad.
[04:26:18] <LeftWing> Indeed.
[04:27:57] <Jerome71> And I guess many of those investors know the brand rather from their mobile (or maybe handheld), than from negative circumstances. Plus let us not underestimate it's importance on server related fileds (i.e. JSP).
[04:28:48] <Jerome71> But I don't really like it as replacement for Desktop applications originally written in C. Of course not.
[04:29:57] <Jerome71> Plus it depends on how a thing is implemented. But enough of that JAVA stuff.
[04:31:27] <boyd> Can anyone tell me exactly what is being fixed/changed in the respins of b70? I ask because I want to know if I should wait to download them
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[04:32:46] <Jerome71> All I can tell you is, that I installed the then current b70 to a Blade 2000 yesterday (interactive, over nfs). And it works like a charme.
[04:33:31] <boyd> I mean if it's all about support for the M9000 or something I don't care...
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[04:40:08] <bochnig> jamesd, delewis as well: I appreciate that you defended SPARC so strongly.
[04:40:49] <bochnig> But on sub 500MHz cpu's, Nevada is a pain.
[04:41:10] <delewis> bochnig: I think that's mostly JDS to blame, really.
[04:41:25] <delewis> I'm currently using mwm (basically, dtwm) on my Tadpole.
[04:42:44] <delewis> bochnig: how's the work on SPARC graphics coming along/
[04:42:45] <jamesd> bochnig, do you count  dual 300mhz  as below 500?  i think it rocks... its quite usable.. more usable than a 650mhz  blade 150
[04:43:23] <bochnig> Adding some alternative lightweight WM('s) would indeed be a good idea. That failsafe session thing may not be understood by many newcomers. (Beside the fact, that no alternative wm is present by default, except TWM, which I just exactly now use on my slow Blade100 (IIe 500MHz, 2048MB mem) SXCR snv_66
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[04:44:33] <jamesd> bochnig, you really need to compare  smp boxes to your  single cpu box... smp and solaris eats  lots of boxes alive...  and mostly what i use my u2 for is  command line based.
[04:45:06] <delewis> bochnig: Sun doesn't seem to be interested in a lightweight environment.
[04:45:17] <delewis> which is going to fuck a lot of customers, like Sun Ray users.
[04:45:32] <jamesd> delewis, the world doesn't seem to be interested in a lightweight environment.
[04:45:36] <bochnig> jamesd, okay: The full II cpu is better, than IIi270MHZ-440MHz <= IIe 400 <= 440 <= 500 MHz <= IIe+ (aka IIi) 550MHz <= 650MHz, in that order. I agree jamesd: Even my 300MHz U30 is better, that the Blade 100 or my Tadpole 500SX
[04:45:49] <delewis> jamesd: Sun Ray customers certainly are.
[04:46:02] <bochnig> s/that/than
[04:46:04] <delewis> a single Gnome applet now consumes more memory than an entire CDE session did.
[04:46:20] <bochnig> :-(
[04:46:24] <jamesd> delewis, i would bet that most  sunray users are still asking for java desktop unless they are hard core unix people.
[04:46:30] <bochnig> EWven CSW's kde is faster and smaller
[04:46:44] <bochnig> (smaller in memory)
[04:46:53] <delewis> jamesd: nope, there are some serious issues with Gnome and Sun Ray environments. Many organizations are getting rid of their Sun Rays because of it.
[04:47:04] <nachox> csw's kde is old...
[04:47:18] <delewis> I'm picking up 50 Sun Rays (along with their two servers) at some point from an .edu in MI that's getting rid of them because of the migration to Gnome.
[04:47:23] <delewis> They're moving to LTSP.
[04:47:27] <bochnig> nachox, true April 2006 or so
[04:47:28] <jamesd> delewis, i really can't argue, mostly my kids just use them to run  rdesktop
[04:47:41] <delewis> and a lot of Fortune 500s are dropping their Sun Ray deployments, as well.
[04:47:45] <delewis> (BP being a large one)
[04:47:53] <nachox> delewis, i bet most of that is not due to gnome but due to firefox
[04:48:25] <delewis> nachox: Gnome certainly doesn't help, because as I've said, a single applet uses 80MB-100MB of RSS on average.
[04:48:28] <bochnig> FF 2.x vs. FF1.x, yes
[04:48:43] <nachox> jamesd, they do that because they are more used to windows perhaps?
[04:48:46] <delewis> well 50MB of RSS and 100MB of SIZE
[04:48:53] <delewis>  26492 dlewis     71M   47M sleep   49    0   0:00:58 0.1% gnome-netstatus/1
[04:49:19] <nachox> how much of that is shared?
[04:49:21] <delewis> netstatus? ok? netstatus. 71 fucking MB of memory and Sun is wanting to ship such nonsense to their Sun Ray customers?
[04:49:34] <jamesd> nachox, yes, and they want  to run all there plugins with me having to hack each one... i just give them there own private  XP instance  and i can reinstall  every 3 or 4 months when they trash it...
[04:49:55] <jamesd> er without
[04:50:12] <nachox> jamesd, and you run those in vmware?
[04:50:22] <jamesd> nachox, of course
[04:50:53] <jamesd> i really wish they would port vmware server to solaris...  zfs rollback winxp_zone1@baseline  would rock
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[04:51:05] <nachox> delewis, perhaps sun will have to start using xfce with sunray?
[04:52:05] <bochnig> or icewm
[04:52:33] <nachox> jamesd, if the linux folks keep bothering vmware they will at least have to find another home for EX :P
[04:53:37] <jamesd> nachox, that would be nice.. because when you think about it, they would have to move esx to linux first or lots of customers would move off of esx to get  zfs + vmware server at least on the lowend.
[04:53:47] <jamesd> er to solaris first
[04:53:50] <Tempt> delewis: Don't forget Cantrill's comments on the GNOME sticker ticker - "obviously written by Orang-Utans"
[04:54:01] <delewis> Tempt: saw that one. :-)
[04:54:16] <delewis> waking up over 10ms was classic.
[04:54:21] <delewis> s/over/every/
[04:54:22] <Tempt> There's the problem. Imagine trying to manage a SunRay deployment for 100 GNOME users.
[04:54:25] <delewis> or wanting to, rather.
[04:54:33] <Tempt> I think it was 1ms
[04:54:39] <delewis> it was something insane in any case.
[04:54:42] <Tempt> I've had that applet blow out to 2Gb RAM.
[04:54:45] <bochnig> jamesd, if qemu && kqemu would perform a little better (even on x86), you could use that. But VMware server support would be too nice to have on Solx86.
[04:54:46] <jamesd> Tempt, that is why they made  x4600's  with  8x dual core cpus
[04:54:52] <delewis> something far more granular than the actual clock resolution, anyway.
[04:54:59] <nachox> jamesd, i dont know about that the linux kernel is just used as a console for that particular vmware product
[04:55:00] <Tempt> james: But you can't get 256Gb of RAM into them.
[04:55:15] <delewis> jamesd: and that's when Sun Ray customers say "fuck you" and switch to LTSP.
[04:55:17] <jamesd> Tempt, yes but a lot of memory can be shared.
[04:55:27] <Tempt> SunRay encourages people to leave their sessions logged in and use the cards for mobility.
[04:55:38] <jamesd> delewis, yes... its way more bloat than needed
[04:55:45] <Tempt> The huuuuge memory leaking GNOME footprint gobbles up RAM like a raging psychopath chopping heads.
[04:55:54] <delewis> and I'm seeing organizations throwing out Sun Rays by the hundreds.
[04:56:03] <delewis> and they aren't upgrading to Sun Ray 2's, either.
[04:56:18] <Tempt> delewis: Heh. We tend to see organisations ditching SunRays, that's why often you'll get stacks at auction or on ebay.
[04:56:19] <delewis> I'm getting 50 for myself come this week or next week.
[04:56:34] <delewis> (probably donate them to my .edu for a lab or a non-profit I'm doing some consulting for)
[04:56:49] <delewis> along with a few loaded E280Rs (1.2GHz /w 8GB of memory)
[04:56:55] <delewis> those were the Sun Ray servers.
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[04:57:02] <Tempt> delewis: You can run at least four GNOME sessions on those 280R.
[04:57:05] <delewis> with CDE, they could fit 30-40 users on them.
[04:57:08] <delewis> with Gnome, 5.
[04:57:09] <delewis> *5*
[04:57:22] <Tempt> And there you hit the problem where SunRay ends up costing more.\
[04:57:30] <delewis> so you know what they did? They said "Fuck you, Sun" and switched to LTSP.
[04:57:31] <Tempt> Cheaper to put Windows PCs on desks.
[04:57:43] <Tempt> Switching to LTSP is just as dumb.
[04:57:57] <edp> ls
[04:58:01] <jamesd> it would be nice to find a few of the sunrays with lcd screens built in.. it would rock...  get rid of these old 17" crts my kids use....
[04:58:03] <nachox> delewis, and you get those E280R cheap?
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[04:58:12] <delewis> Tempt: in their case, no, as you can selectively run certain applications *cough* Firefox *cough* on the local workstation.
[04:58:14] <Tempt> delewis: Gimmeh 280R ;)
[04:58:19] <delewis> nachox: free.
[04:58:30] <nachox> delewis, really? damn...
[04:58:30] <delewis> all I've got to do is arrange shipping, and I've already done that.
[04:58:34] <delewis> They've got about 30 Sun Ray 1g's
[04:58:37] <Tempt> Firefox is becoming a bit of a joke as well. I can't even run it on my Powerbook anymore, it sucks in so much CPU.
[04:58:41] <delewis> and 20 Sun Ray 170s
[04:58:44] <bochnig> E280R never existed: SF280R
[04:59:31] <nachox> delewis, i wish i could find something like that here in Argentina :(
[04:59:40] <delewis> you can. Just look around.
[04:59:50] <delewis> all of the .edu's are getting rid of their Sun Ray deployments.
[04:59:56] <delewis> I discovered this one last week.
[05:00:12] <nachox> nah, noone will dump something like that here, and edus never had the budget to buy sun rays
[05:01:32] <bochnig> Most of those systems go to resellers (i.e. eBay Powersellers). I doubt it's easy to find someone who is willing to dump that stuff for free. Even in the U.s. or  here in E.U.rope.
[05:01:50] <delewis> bochnig: most places are just wanting to dump the stuff, period.
[05:02:07] <delewis> this particular .edu had them in storage for 9 mo. and were taking them to the dumpster in another few weeks or so.
[05:02:12] <jamesd> software is getting too bloated...
[05:02:15] <jamesd>  PID USER      PR  NI  VIRT  RES  SHR S %CPU %MEM    TIME+  COMMAND
[05:02:16] <jamesd>  9907 root      10 -10  252m 139m 127m S  1.0  6.9   0:07.93 vmware-vmx
[05:02:16] <jamesd>  2432 root      39  19  346m 135m 5896 S  0.0  6.8   0:03.01 yum-updatesd
[05:02:16] <jamesd>  3585 jamesd    20   0  757m 135m  47m S  1.0  6.7   1:22.01 firefox-bin
[05:02:16] <jamesd>  3611 jamesd    20   0  427m 102m  20m S  3.0  5.1   1:47.68 ktorrent
[05:02:19] <delewis> they just wanted to rid of them, but fortunately, I found them before then.
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[05:02:34] <Tempt> yum-updatesd?
[05:02:38] <Tempt> Fark, Indiana really is rolling ahead.
[05:02:47] <jamesd> Tempt, its fedora, need  vmware for the kids
[05:02:58] <Tempt> Give the kids a sunray
[05:03:15] <jamesd> Tempt, they have a sunray, but like  windows... so  vmware it is.
[05:03:37] <nachox> delewis, that is a shame, i really believe sun rays and thin clients are the future
[05:03:42] <jamesd> Tempt, and i'm not buying each a x86 box..
[05:03:54] <nachox> delewis, perhaps we should start deploying opera? :)
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[05:04:48] <jamesd> delewis, if you want part with a few of the 170
[05:04:55] <bochnig> nachox: Sun believed this for 20 years. Maybe they were just ahead of time (maybe 40 years) ?
[05:05:00] <jamesd> i would be happy to make it worth your while.
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[05:05:33] <delewis> jamesd: I'm not completely sure they are 170s. They may just be the old 15" models. I really won't know for sure until they're sitting in front of me.
[05:06:07] <jamesd> delewis, okay,  i may still be interested in a couple  15" models if they are lcd ....
[05:06:13] <delewis> ok
[05:06:22] <nachox> bochnig, the problem imho used to be bandwidth, but now with gb ethernet.... now the problem is the weight of the supported DEs
[05:08:08] <bochnig> nachox: yes, but how to make money out of it (Sun) ?
[05:09:15] <bochnig> One should start by adopting (alternative) lightweigt DE's
[05:09:50] <bochnig> Instead of excusively offering the fattes Gnome ever (CDE is to be EOL'ed soon)
[05:10:02] <bochnig> er fattest
[05:10:55] <bochnig> Even if not all languages may be supported from day 1 on.
[05:11:07] <edp> bochnig, selling the thin clients for cheaper than a full blown PC would definitely help encourage adoption by companies
[05:11:16] <bochnig> my 2 Cents
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[05:12:05] <jamesd> edp, if they relized how much they save by using them, they would migrate in a heartbeat...
[05:12:08] <bochnig> edp: Of course, I never understood certain pricing policies
[05:12:15] <Tempt> Bring back Enlightenment.
[05:12:22] <Tempt> I fired up elive the other day
[05:12:24] <nachox> sun ray clients are really expensive yes
[05:12:31] <Tempt> Didn't each as much RAM as GNOME but the eye candy was ... impressive
[05:12:39] <nachox> i cant believe you can find them for 50 bucks on ebay
[05:12:44] <edp> jamesd, I agree with that, but management sees the initial cost and they see no reason to go with the thin client
[05:12:57] <delewis> nachox: I usually pay $10/Sun Ray 1.
[05:13:04] <boyd> edp: But you need the sw... and a licence key :(
[05:13:17] <jamesd> nachox, yeah i pay about $10-15 each  for a  sunray1
[05:14:03] <bochnig> delewis: Most larger companies or institutions DO NOT buy use, for whatever dumb reason
[05:14:07] <jamesd> and the 17" monitors are found on the curb specials... they usually last till i find another one...
[05:14:10] <bochnig> used
[05:14:49] <Tempt> My real beef with GNOME/SunRay is I've got SunRay 150s backing onto an 8-way server with plenty of RAM and it feels unpleasantly sluggish
[05:14:50] <jamesd> bochnig, they can't take them off there taxes for 3 years.....
[05:14:55] <edp> boyd, for Sun Rays you need the servers too which add additional cost
[05:15:20] <bochnig> jamesd, aha. I see.
[05:15:30] <jamesd> Tempt, what are you doing with them? they usually feel faster than the local display.. at least on my old hadware.
[05:15:33] <jamesd> er hardware
[05:15:46] <Tempt> jamesd: I don't have a local display on my 880.
[05:15:47] <edp> if the Sun Ray 270 were priced at $400-500 that'd be a start.. hell you can buy a full Dell PC that's capable of acting as a thin client for only $500
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[05:16:29] <Tempt> Sun Fire 2FS is like $AU500
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[05:16:45] <Tempt> with no country kit
[05:16:57] <Tempt> You can get a fair bit of kit for $AU500
[05:17:06] <Tempt> (and that's not list, list is like $800)
[05:17:16] <bochnig> edp: And a new in box noname PC starting as low as $200
[05:17:25] <jamesd> edp, but you get to pay some tech $35 an hour, to provide maintance, including  15 minutes to walk to the desk and visit the can on the way and chit chat with the sexy secratary, for a 45 minute service call..  how many times does that happen before the sunray pays for it self, and the sexy secretary can replace her own sunray....
[05:18:06] <delewis> Sun Rays (at least Sun Ray 1s, anyway) aren't that power efficient, either.
[05:18:07] <Tempt> jamesd: Yes, but the hardware seldom fails compared to wierdo software issues. You'll have fun dealing with GNOME memory leaks or "what doesn't it drag and drop?" questions.
[05:18:36] <delewis> from my testing which involved seeing how long a UPS would power each device, a typical peecee with the hard drive removed is as power efficient as a Sun Ray 1 is.
[05:18:42] <jamesd> Tempt, yeap.. and software issues are dealt with out leaving datacenter...  or there desk
[05:18:43] <nachox> plus with sun rays you get session management for free
[05:19:46] <Tempt> jamesd: If you keep your support monkey team in the DC, man, I'm glad I don't work in your organisation.
[05:19:48] <bochnig> There are better methods the precisely measure the power-efficiency (device for $15)
[05:20:04] <jamesd> Tempt,  i did mention there desk...
[05:20:05] <Tempt> jamesd: The DC should be the domain of sysadmins and facilities management with the occasional visit from cablers
[05:21:00] <boyd> delewis: I've pretty much decided to fall back on diskless PCs as X Terminals
[05:21:09] <bochnig> delewis: Why didn't you respond back in May, on xwin discuss? I had asked you to plese send me Xorg.0.log from your SPARCBOOK ...
[05:21:12] <delewis> boyd: yep.
[05:21:16] <jamesd> our cablelers visit our datacenter more often than the sysadmins...  and vendors rack gear,  sysadmins only visit if a box  refuses to go to poweroff by it self and needs to be forced down.
[05:21:18] <delewis> that's what a client of mine is doing.
[05:21:59] <bochnig> delewis: I thought you might not be interested in Xorg anymore ...
[05:22:03] <delewis> bochnig: probably was busy or using my SPARCbook (its also my portable Oracle development system)
[05:22:26] <edp> jamesd, for upfront costs though the initial investment is quite steep though
[05:22:37] <edp> I agree completely that the costs would be lower in the long run..
[05:22:40] <bochnig> Xorg (what I have here) should now run on your Tadpole
[05:22:50] <bochnig> As I said on xwin
[05:23:01] <bochnig> It does on my 500SX.
[05:23:08] <Tempt> Every DC I've worked in requires vendors to be supervised.
[05:23:10] <edp> but you almost have to buy all of your equipment twice.. Sun Rays at the cost of full desktop PCs, plus enough servers to run them all
[05:23:14] <delewis> bochnig: I'll give it a try. Got the latest tarballs anywhere?
[05:24:43] <bochnig> delewis: Not uploaded yet. Pls. wait until FOX merge (Friday). But could you pls. send me your Xorg.0.log generated by the existing April-Xorg? Would be cool .
[05:25:08] <delewis> where's the April Xorg at?
[05:25:20] <jamesd> edp, and the  sunray last  5 years, and  pc's last 2-3 years...
[05:25:53] <bochnig> delewis:  http://www.martux.org/xorg/7.2.0/bin_pkgadd_packages/  TIA  :-)
[05:26:08] <delewis> bochnig: cool.
[05:26:23] <delewis> what's your preferred email address to send the Xorg.0.log to?
[05:26:24] <boyd> oh, bochnig, I was sorry to see your welcome back spoiled by that primadonna on -discuss
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[05:28:23] <bochnig> boyd: Never mind. I have quit that list. There are still the archives, so I won't miss anything.
[05:28:45] <boyd> Talk about hypersensitive
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[05:29:36] <bochnig> boyd: Wrong time, wrong place. Things like that happen.
[05:30:06] <bochnig> BTW, I finally got myself a SunRay1
[05:30:21] <bochnig> that's good news
[05:30:30] <delewis> get Xorg working on Sun Ray :-)
[05:30:39] <delewis> (as the Sun Ray team at Sun hasn't delivered that yet)
[05:31:00] <bochnig> haha  :-) I cannot make a state ment as of now. Which chipset is inside?
[05:31:16] <delewis> PGX64, I think.
[05:31:38] <delewis> its definitely ATI Mach-based.
[05:32:02] <bochnig> Then we will get it. I do not see a reason why it shouldn't work. Maybe a few SIGCEGV or SIGBUS's.
[05:32:36] <bochnig> Then it depends on the pci bridge !
[05:32:46] <Tempt> As soon as they get Xorg running for everything, they can fire (sorry, "RIF") everyone in the graphics dept.
[05:33:13] <bochnig> If we don't have any specs or details, it's a nonstarter.
[05:33:57] <bochnig> Tempt: No, not alanc or Jay
[05:34:30] <Tempt> Oh, the 'community' will do all the work.
[05:34:54] <bochnig> Damn, I will unwrap it right now, although I actually didn't plan to (5:34AM here)
[05:35:02] <bochnig> away
[05:35:22] <bochnig> cu
[05:35:58] <jamesd> Tempt, sun's standards are much higher than the community will be able to reach for years... but they can kill off a  30 man department and replace with 2-3 that are also contributing to the opensource thus earning PR that is 10 times what there salary costs.
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[05:44:31] <nachox> Tempt, of course, they need the extra money to pay more marketing guys and please investors
[05:48:28] <bochnig> I must shutdown this box now, was nice to talk to you!  Martin
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[06:01:11] <nachox> and the bash sun night is officially over, i think i'm off to sleep
[06:01:25] <Tempt> It is now the start of ksh sun
[06:02:27] <nachox> Tempt, i thought roland had a monopoly when it comes to lame jokes here
[06:02:45] <Tempt> Oh, no, I've got plenty of lame jokes for everyone.
[06:03:39] <Tempt> Now, if only they'd fire a marketer and hire something to cram some bluetooth support into SX.
[06:04:39] * nachox buys the fireian.com domain :)
[06:04:52] * Tempt offers nachox hosting.
[06:05:26] <nachox> it is actually available it seems
[06:06:35] <Tempt> register closedsolaris.org at the same time :)
[06:07:11] <nachox> sun will sue me the time they saw that
[06:07:24] <nachox> s/time/minute/
[06:08:00] <nachox> i can almost see the lawyers hitting the reload button on firefox waiting for a page to popup there
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[06:08:59] <edwardocallagha> Hey people
[06:09:04] <edwardocallagha> Long time no see
[06:09:05] <Tempt> Heya.
[06:09:22] <edwardocallagha> Hey Tempt hows things ?
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[06:09:48] <jmcp> edwardocallagha: whoa .... it's daytime and you're online? did you get kicked out of your course already? ;-)
[06:09:58] <Tempt> edwardocallagha: Not bad.
[06:10:10] <Tempt> edwardocallagha: doing my yearly domain renewals
[06:10:18] <edwardocallagha> lol
[06:10:25] <edwardocallagha> oh yea
[06:10:51] <edwardocallagha> narr, i got pass the proxy with my SGD account :D
[06:11:18] <edwardocallagha> Also I gained a new account that has more bandwidth
[06:11:37] <jmcp> edwardocallagha: excellent!
[06:11:51] <Tempt> Good old SGD, subverting filtering policies everywhere ;)
[06:13:59] <edwardocallagha> Well, I started work offline on my own linux distro, however much you lads are going to hate me for this :P
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[06:14:49] <edwardocallagha> But its only for the PS3 and I don't yet know how to port the kernel patchs from the Linux kernel to the SunOS one
[06:15:59] <Tempt> You don't take anything from the linux kernel to Solaris.
[06:16:03] <Tempt> GPL, remember.
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[06:22:06] <g4lt-sb100> more importatnly, you don't take anything from linux to solaris: QC, remember
[06:22:27] <Tempt> now now
[06:22:42] <edwardocallagha> I know, hence what i said
[06:23:30] <edwardocallagha> Anyways I would like to some day see the SunOS kernel bootstrap on the CBE
[06:24:06] <g4lt-sb100> Tempt, what?
[06:24:17] <edwardocallagha> At the moment I got a new kernel going 2.6.23rc
[06:25:08] <edwardocallagha> I got what Tempt was saying after review
[06:25:46] <edwardocallagha> I wish to learn some Ruby and it would be great if I could do a installer it it
[06:25:55] <edwardocallagha> s/it/in
[06:26:30] <edwardocallagha> My JAVA class I am finding hard as I have not done OOP before
[06:26:51] <Triskelios> ...
[06:26:56] <edwardocallagha> Once I get the concepts i'll be fine i'm sure
[06:27:29] <edwardocallagha> Oh, Sorry for my IRC enropy
[06:28:40] <boyd> Hey edwardocallagha, I have to mention this... I saw your comment on jonathan's blog
[06:28:49] <boyd> Have you seen NeoOffice?
[06:31:09] <edwardocallagha> Yes, why did they fork it ?
[06:32:08] <boyd> The openoffice people had no interest in a non-X version IIRC
[06:32:14] <boyd> (or no resources, anyway)
[06:32:33] <boyd> Anyway, my point was that you can point people to neooffice
[06:32:33] <edwardocallagha> They should join and be a sub team
[06:32:45] <edwardocallagha> OK will do
[06:32:57] <edwardocallagha> I see they have updated things
[06:33:27] <edwardocallagha> Last time I looked it was based on a old OpenOffice code base
[06:33:38] <edwardocallagha> Thanks
[06:33:46] <edwardocallagha> How things anyway boyd?
[06:34:15] <boyd> Not bad... pretty busy.. and Tempt keeps trying to, um, tempt me into buying a big box :)
[06:35:43] <edwardocallagha> Oh i
[06:35:52] <edwardocallagha> what kind ?
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[06:36:00] <boyd> An 880 like his..
[06:36:17] <edwardocallagha> tempt: you bad man ;)
[06:36:28] <boyd> heh
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[06:37:41] <edwardocallagha> Not really into games all that much but these graphics are amazing
[06:37:43] <edwardocallagha> http://www.ninjatheory.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=38&Itemid=61
[06:38:05] <edwardocallagha> Oh , should have really put that in pastbin
[06:38:11] <edwardocallagha> :P
[06:38:25] <boyd> Nice, but they do look a bit like cutscenes
[06:38:37] <boyd> (at least some of them)
[06:39:45] <edwardocallagha> they got a java/flash filled site over at http://www.heavenlysword.com/
[06:40:29] <edwardocallagha> I do like the sound track the have done for there site/game
[06:41:08] <boyd> I'll look later when I can have sound :)
[06:41:16] <edwardocallagha> cool
[06:45:49] <edwardocallagha> boyd: Do you know any Ruby ?
[06:46:00] <edwardocallagha> Or any good ebooks I can find ?
[06:46:20] <boyd> Some. It's what I intend to get back to after the zsh dtrace provider (if I ever get back to the provider)
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[06:57:54] <edwardocallagha> Ah yes, man I got to learn that as well
[06:58:00] <edwardocallagha> too much to learn
[06:58:15] <edwardocallagha> wish I had a buddy to work with on these projects
[07:02:28] <edwardocallagha> I better go and work
[07:02:56] <edwardocallagha> If anyone has a ebook could they pplease email it :)
[07:04:46] <edwardocallagha> good day :)
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[07:05:28] <Tempt> boyd: You make it sound like I'm some sort of SPARC hardware pusher.
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[07:08:07] <dlg> Tempt: being honest can be pushy sometimes
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[07:10:54] <Tempt> As much as I like to give Sun a hard time over recent decisions and such, I still like my SPARC machines.
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[07:42:27] * WickedWicky chews some gum
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[07:45:55] <Tempt> WickedWicky: How did your patching go?
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[07:46:45] <WickedWicky> shrug
[07:46:59] <WickedWicky> real  5:42:15.8
[07:47:00] <WickedWicky> user  2:07:26.0
[07:47:00] <WickedWicky> sys   2:24:32.1
[07:47:08] <WickedWicky> it took a bit :P
[07:47:32] <WickedWicky> after rebooting the CPU went to 1% idle sustained
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[07:48:03] <WickedWicky> so I made some adjustments to rc3.d and rc2.d to prevent appserver, sendmail and crap like that from starting up
[07:48:26] <WickedWicky> and now this is my vmstat output with gnome presenting me the login screen
[07:48:26] <WickedWicky> # vmstat 5
[07:48:27] <WickedWicky>  kthr      memory            page            disk          faults      cpu
[07:48:27] <WickedWicky>  r b w   swap  free  re  mf pi po fr de sr s1 s3 s6 --   in   sy   cs us sy id
[07:48:27] <WickedWicky>  0 0 0 992772 22000  27 119 106 0  0  0 38  0  0  0  0  262  490   78  3  7 90
[07:48:27] <WickedWicky>  0 0 0 1047040 17824  0   2  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  208   21   32  0  0 100
[07:48:28] <WickedWicky>  0 0 0 1047040 17824  0   0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  207   17   30  0  0 100
[07:48:30] <WickedWicky>  0 0 0 1047040 17824  0   0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  215   17   34  0  0 100
[07:49:37] <Tempt> Reasonably quiet, yes.
[07:49:43] <Tempt> Now put some load on that host!
[07:49:45] <WickedWicky> the funny part is that before running the recommended cluster I didnt make any modifications to the init scripts and it was running like a sharm. I am not sure if the appserver and stuff like that was running though
[07:49:48] <WickedWicky> I am gonna do that
[07:50:01] <WickedWicky> apache webserver with a bit of php and mysql
[07:50:13] <Tempt> Good plan.
[07:50:18] <Tempt> Should keep it busy.
[07:50:46] <Tempt> Should be able to slim that box down quite a lot. Gives you some security advantages as well as performance.
[07:50:59] <WickedWicky> it has a 4GB scsi and a 1gb scsi disk inside, the 1gb scsi disk is a dedicated swap partition
[07:51:17] <WickedWicky> I killed inetd for instance, which I never use
[07:51:20] <Tempt> That's a lot of swap!
[07:51:40] <WickedWicky> I have big plans that prolly will require it
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[07:56:35] <sahafeez> is there a list of Sun's most impressive / biggest customers somewhere?
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[07:57:22] <WickedWicky> dunno, I think that's considered private/personal info, from customer's perspective
[07:59:03] <sahafeez> yes, sometimes however most of the time large deals are announced.
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[08:00:14] <WickedWicky> that's only when working together/integration is involved I believe, like with IBM now. They will never say how some company in NL bought 60.000 T2000s
[08:00:29] <WickedWicky> (we didnt)
[08:01:46] <sahafeez> hum, thats is not want i mean - there is always the - we have 300 of the fortune 500 as customers statements....anyway....
[08:02:22] <WickedWicky> I do believe Sun is proudly saying how they deliver to the U.S. army though
[08:02:31] <ofu> 60000 systems? wtf?
[08:02:39] <WickedWicky> ofu: we didnt
[08:02:43] <WickedWicky> I was just saying :)
[08:02:48] <ofu> we didnt do either
[08:03:37] <WickedWicky> be right back, going to the bus station
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[08:05:55] <boyd> Hmm... smpatch has pulled a patch that tells me I need the s10 8/07 media...
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[08:11:43] <Tempt> Hah.
[08:11:46] <Tempt> That's classy.
[08:11:59] <Tempt> I'm sure they'll fix it to say 12/08
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[08:12:32] <boyd> Heh... it's 121430-16 BTW
[08:13:09] <Tempt> man
[08:13:12] <Tempt> sunsolve is fast today
[08:13:18] <Tempt> less than a minute to log in
[08:13:22] <boyd> heh
[08:13:35] <boyd> It's never been *that* bad for me... more likely to just 404 me
[08:13:43] <g4lt-sb100> Tempt, right, they brought out the big guns, a s5/70
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[08:14:02] <Tempt> Geez, that's pretty high end
[08:14:08] <Tempt> Just wait until they get it onto a 110!
[08:14:40] <g4lt-sb100> well, it beats the IPC that they have it on most of the time
[08:14:55] <Tempt> IPC. Vroom! Vroom!
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[08:16:29] <g4lt-sb100> you know, who was the damn fool that failed to make a lunchbox ultra?
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[08:19:04] <boyd> Ha! 6594425 Patch 121430-16 is requesting packages from S10U4...which doesn't even exist yet
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[08:22:40] <Tempt> boyd: You're meant to roll your own
[08:23:02] <Tempt> boyd: Did you raise that fault?
[08:23:18] <boyd> No.. not me... and it's closed as a dup
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[08:48:10] <tsp> can anyone reproduce this problem: in ed, if I have a file with a line that starts with a ., it allows you to go past the top and the bottom of the file?
[08:49:01] <WickedWicky> I'd love to help you but I dont even know how to handle ed.
[08:49:35] <tsp> is i teven worth reporting that, if it truely is a bug and not just something I overlooked in the manpage?
[08:50:08] <WickedWicky> recheck the man page, if its not there and you feel it's incorrect behaviour I'd file a bug
[08:50:15] <WickedWicky> worse thing that can happen is that they reject the bug
[08:50:16] <WickedWicky> so what
[08:50:45] <tsp> I'm guessing that bug's been there forever in that case, someone's bound to have noticed it by now
[08:51:34] <WickedWicky> or people took it for granted and thought like you do now :)
[08:51:45] <tsp> heh
[08:52:03] <WickedWicky> serious, when you feel it's an error, file it, what's the worse that can happen?
[08:52:04] <tsp> I guess ed is all bug dead to most people - I just haven't got around to compiling gnu ed to replace it
[08:52:12] <tsp> s/bug/but
[08:52:16] <WickedWicky> maybe some bitching here by someone who takes himself too serious, that's about it
[08:52:20] * tsp goes to figure out how the bug reporting system works
[08:52:59] <WickedWicky> it's fairly easy, I filed one for the new and old installer
[08:53:58] <WickedWicky> you need to be registered at osol though
[08:54:06] <WickedWicky> as in, have a login on the site
[08:54:08] <Triskelios> the only problem is you can't update bugs directly
[08:54:24] <WickedWicky> correct
[08:54:50] <WickedWicky> but it's better than taking things that shouldnt be, in your opinion, for granted and dont point it out
[08:55:06] <WickedWicky> my opinion of course :)
[08:55:30] <tsp> I use ed every day so if it breaks, I'm the one that usually has to find a way around it :) I still wish for pipes
[08:55:48] <tsp> 'a,'b|command would be so useful
[08:56:25] <WickedWicky> I'll have to figure out some things when I am at home as well for opensolaris, I have a new motherboard and 3/4th of the devices comes up as "Unknown card, Unknown vendor" with scanpci
[08:57:05] <dlg> heh
[08:57:20] <WickedWicky> via, naturaly
[08:57:41] <WickedWicky> evening for you dlg :)
[08:57:51] <boyd> tsp: What about ex?
[08:58:02] * tsp checks
[08:58:46] <tsp> ex is weird
[08:58:52] <WickedWicky> all ex-es are
[08:58:58] <WickedWicky> it's why they are ex
[08:59:01] <boyd> It's the : mode of  vi.
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[08:59:41] <tsp> the only time I can get my bug to appear is if .something is on the first or last line of a file
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[09:01:15] <boyd> tsp: I think brendang would care about ed bugs
[09:01:31] <Tempt> huh?
[09:01:36] <Tempt> Brendan uses ed?
[09:01:45] <boyd> Not day to day...
[09:02:08] <WickedWicky> revelations!
[09:02:13] <WickedWicky> wb Tempt
[09:02:25] <mbalmer> tsp, how to reproduce?
[09:02:36] <Tempt> Oh, Brendan specialises in doing odd things.
[09:02:53] <WickedWicky> It's 9:02am, I'll ask later
[09:03:43] <tsp> mbalmer: ed file
[09:03:51] <tsp> actually, echo ".test" >file
[09:03:52] <tsp> then ed file
[09:03:57] <tsp> problem pops up when you move aorund
[09:04:11] <Gekkko> touch file?
[09:04:16] <tsp> put a line at the top of it, without the ., you can move past the bottom and vice versa
[09:04:37] <WickedWicky> Gekkko: create a file with the content ".test" , no quotes
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[09:09:31] <Tempt> bboorrreedd....
[09:09:40] <Tempt> Think it might be approaching time to go home.
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[09:17:53] <kjetilho> tsp: what do you mean by move past the bottom?
[09:19:02] <kjetilho> oh, there's sort of a blank line beneath it.
[09:19:02] <kjetilho> interesting
[09:19:02] <kjetilho> but $ does the right thing anyway
[09:19:02] <WickedWicky> Tempt: check your mail and take these words of advise
[09:19:26] <kjetilho> tsp: how is this a problem?
[09:20:07] <tsp> kjetilho: hmm lets see
[09:20:19] <tsp> kjetilho: you can type, say, +100, append a line, and it'll write a 0 byte file
[09:20:30] <kjetilho> oh, wow
[09:20:41] <Triskelios> so the behaviour is different from if you had a different character at the beginning of the line?
[09:20:53] <WickedWicky> oh wow is not what you'll say at the occasion I think kjetilho :P
[09:20:59] <tsp> yup
[09:21:08] <tsp> I tried /test and it didn't work
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[09:21:44] <kjetilho> it's not a 0 byte file in my case, but if I try to append stuff after the end, it just goes missing
[09:22:07] <tsp> um... this is odd
[09:22:16] <tsp> launch ed, enter append mode, exit append mode and it happens
[09:22:21] <kjetilho> I'd say it's a bug in the ed script, though.  (of course it's a bug in ed, too)
[09:22:43] <tsp> now that ones definitely a bug
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[09:23:15] <tsp> ed foo, a, ., i, test, ., w - 0 bytes
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[09:24:20] <kjetilho> tsp: okay, that's not the behaviour in FCS
[09:24:35] <tsp> but only if the file doesn't exist
[09:24:39] <tsp> what's fcs?
[09:24:54] <kjetilho> First Customer Ship or something like that
[09:24:56] <seanmcg> First Customer Ship.
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[09:25:21] <seanmcg> tsp: (can't scroll back far) what version of solaris is this ?  I can't reproduce..
[09:25:26] <seanmcg> on snv_71
[09:25:32] <tsp> SunOS fajrero 5.11 snv_69 sun4u sparc SUNW,Ultra-5_10
[09:26:17] <tsp> I checked the bugs list on bugs, but maybe I didn't go far enough forward?
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[09:26:28] <tsp> or it could be a sparc problem
[09:26:44] <kjetilho> tsp: it's not a bug that i fails in a zero length file
[09:26:45] <Triskelios> I'll try on a snv_63 sparc
[09:27:15] <tsp> no, i will fail at 0 - but try doing append, exit append with ., then i - the file should still be 0 lines, so i should fail
[09:27:39] <kjetilho> yes, it's a bug that you don't get "?"
[09:28:11] <tsp> ah, so the text typed vanishes
[09:29:44] <tsp> I'd need to reboot to see if this happened on snv_70 intel, and I don't have a terminal to access the box when it comes up :)
[09:31:56] <Triskelios> tsp: reproduces on snv_63/sparc
[09:32:31] <tsp> all we need now is an x86 test
[09:32:49] <tsp> then I can fire it off and see what happens
[09:32:49] <Triskelios> sec,  I happen to have an snv_63 x86 machine
[09:34:15] <Triskelios> identical behaviour on snv_63 x86 also
[09:35:00] <tsp> kjetilho: if it doesn't occur in fcs, does that mean it got fixed somewhere up the line?
[09:35:20] <tsp> hence not worth reporting? unless I missed something above
[09:35:27] <kjetilho> tsp: no, I thought you were still using the file with ".test"
[09:35:41] <kjetilho> but it's not a very important bug since your ed script is buggy
[09:35:50] <kjetilho> IOW GIGO
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[09:36:20] <kjetilho> probably worth reporting anyway, though
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[09:36:48] <tsp> I'm not sure if the .test, and the append-exit thing are related - they both give the same result of the extra blanks
[09:37:16] <kjetilho> I don't think they're related
[09:38:46] <tsp> kjetilho: what does doing a, then ., do in a newly created ed? the same weird blank line problem should occur then
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[09:41:23] <kjetilho> tsp: no, try a . 1,$p
[09:41:48] <tsp> right, that gives the expected result
[09:41:57] <tsp> but if you hit enter, it puts you past line 0
[09:42:10] <tsp> same with the .test
[09:42:51] <kjetilho> at that point it should refuse an i command, but doesn't
[09:43:23] <tsp> it should give a ? when I try to go past 0
[09:43:24] <kjetilho> (if it refused i, the same state would probably also refuse a +1)
[09:43:43] <kjetilho> right.
[09:44:35] <tsp> or a -1 :)
[09:47:01] <tsp> do I put it in the editor category? the list is incredibly long
[09:47:34] <Tempt> Filing a bug?
[09:47:48] <tsp> yup
[09:48:00] <seanmcg> tsp: the cat to put the bug in would be solaris/utility/editor
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[09:48:52] <tsp> ah, edbrowse just said editor :) figured that might not be it
[09:48:53] <tsp> but it is
[09:50:34] <seanmcg>  ya editor is the catch all for vi ed, etc...
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[09:58:49] <tsp> it said the bug has been reported, but I got no info where to find it
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[10:02:08] <Corpuscule> hi
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[10:24:12] <Fish> hello
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[11:17:39] <timsf> hey all
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[11:21:27] <Tempt> Hey there.
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[11:29:26] <e^ipi> ahoy
[11:31:51] * timsf groaning from having to summarise > 2 months of opensolaris news this morning. Bound to have missed something important.
[11:32:08] <timeless> sounds like fun, what for?
[11:32:23] <timeless> i had to do that for publishing my browser announcements
[11:32:26] <timsf> Next ie-osug podcast.. recording today or tomorrow I think.
[11:32:46] <timsf> There's /so/ much stuff going on, it's amazing
[11:32:55] <Gman> timsf, har har! :)
[11:33:10] <timsf> Yeah thanks for the vote of sympathy gman!
[11:33:39] <timsf> If I left it till our next meeting in September, we'd have hours of content
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[11:34:02] <timsf> and given that we missed the monthly summary for our Aug 12th meeting, we've a lot to catch up on.
[11:34:45] <timsf> Hang on, I'll pastebin what I've got so far...
[11:34:46] <Gman> timsf, it's pretty tough to sit down and do
[11:35:56] <timsf> http://pastebin.com/d2416ef53
[11:35:57] <timsf> anyone care to have a quick browse through that and see if I'm missing anything glaring
[11:35:57] <Gman> looking now
[11:35:59] <timsf>  I used -announce, -discuss, planet.opensolaris.org and the putback & headsup lists as a source
[11:36:17] <timsf> (dunno if we'll cover everything there in the podcast)
[11:36:46] <Gman> dwarf delivers
[11:37:03] <timsf> Good call - got a url?
[11:37:08] <Gman> new nevada tech lead
[11:37:14] <timsf> Sun specific?
[11:37:20] <timsf>  (isn't it?)
[11:37:47] <Gman> perhaps
[11:40:40] <timsf> Actually, is there a way to browse old planet.opensolaris.org content ?
[11:41:24] <Gman> nope
[11:41:25] <timeless> i presume http://planet.opensolaris.org/atom.xml isn't sufficient
[11:41:26] <Gman> no archiving
[11:41:34] <timeless> it dates to aug 25
[11:41:37] <timsf> Rats.
[11:41:46] <timeless> wow, you guys have over active bloggers
[11:41:48] <timsf> Yeah, that's as far back as I could go.
[11:42:24] <timeless> The Wayback Machine service is experiencing technical difficulties.
[11:42:24] <timeless> Thank you for your patience while we restore this service.
[11:42:48] <timeless> timsf: i'd suggest you use googlealerts
[11:42:56] <timeless> have google archive all blog things you'll care about :)
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[11:43:26] * timeless goes off to eed an n800 to make it stop moaning about not having power
[11:43:48] <timsf> Hmm. I can be pretty specific, in that I want "this feed, and this feed and this feed and this feed" - basically what planet is doing. I'll investigate
[11:43:53] <timsf> thanks for the tip timeless
[11:44:13] <timeless> that's what i settled on for dealing w/ microb.
[11:44:28] <timeless> planets really do suck in this respect
[11:44:31] <timeless> glad to be of help
[11:45:00] <timeless> you should also be able to basically say " i want planet"
[11:45:21] <timeless> that way if someone's annoying and gets added to planet w/o you adding the feed to your alerts, you still get it
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[11:53:45] <BadKarma> see I've got a process running ... tried to kill... not able... cant truss against it tho, any idea what that might be?
[11:57:52] <Triskelios> do a pstack on it? maybe it's not returning from a system call
[11:58:25] <cormac> does anyone know how to delete a file from the alom?
[11:59:49] <BadKarma> Triskelios: pstack: cannot examine 33154: no such process
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[12:04:09] <Triskelios> kszwed: yo
[12:04:22] <kszwed> hey Triskelios :)
[12:05:37] <Triskelios> how's it going?
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[12:08:14] <Tempt> Hey, anyone seeing the lunar eclipse?
[12:08:27] <kszwed> Triskelios, not enough time in the day to do fun stuff
[12:08:30] <Tempt> (That's outside, btw.)
[12:08:48] <WickedWicky> that'd require taking a peak into real life world, no?
[12:08:53] <kszwed> Tempt, ah, thought it was my screensaver.
[12:09:14] * Tempt looks for a streaming video feed
[12:10:08] <Tempt> http://www.discoverychannel.com.au/eclipse
[12:10:57] <Gman> Tempt, i was looking at it, but it's a bit cloudy here
[12:11:19] <Tempt> Yeah, completely overcast in Melbourne, hence asking around
[12:11:39] <Gman> we can see glimpses in wellington
[12:11:39] <Gman> but not much
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[12:14:59] <Tempt> the video feed is reasonably clear
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[13:19:17] <vladd> hi
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[13:22:14] <vladd> I've recently downloaded the 3 segments of the Solaris Express Community Edition DVD. When I've concatenated them the result was an ISO DVD image of about 5 GB and of course it did not fit on a "standard" 4.7 GB DVD. Is that OK???
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[13:23:42] <Triskelios> vladd: nope, I'm pretty sure the total size should be smaller than 4.7GB
[13:23:57] <Triskelios> vladd: how did you concatenate the files?
[13:24:04] <Cyrille> and I thought there were five files.
[13:24:18] <Triskelios> Cyrille: 3 since b63 or so
[13:24:26] <vladd> on Windows, I followed the instructions: copy /b file1+file2+file3 result.iso
[13:24:28] <Cyrille> ah right
[13:24:57] <Triskelios> vladd: are the files ok? check the md5sums
[13:25:47] <Symmetria> heh
[13:25:49] <Symmetria> dammit
[13:25:58] <vladd> I guess if the files were OK, because I could unzip them
[13:26:04] <Symmetria> I have now tried about everything I can think of to make my new routers break from overload
[13:26:19] <Symmetria> with no success so far
[13:26:29] <Triskelios> vladd: does the size before and after add up?
[13:26:40] <vladd> yes
[13:26:43] <vladd> perfectly
[13:27:02] <dlg> Symmetria: what routers?
[13:27:07] <vladd> the sum of the unzipped files is about 5GB ..I do not have the exect numbers now
[13:27:31] <Symmetria> dlg 7609-S dual RSP720 with dual es20s linked back to back
[13:27:45] <vladd> the sum of sizes of segments are exactly the size of the resulted file
[13:27:49] <dlg> sounds expensive
[13:27:55] <Symmetria> heh dlg I pushed them to 40gig full duplex through the 4 es20 interfaces through a 500 line long access list at 8 million pps
[13:28:07] <Symmetria> and they didnt give a damn
[13:28:12] <dlg> id hope not
[13:28:37] <Symmetria> is there a way to flood ping with solaris's ping app
[13:28:41] <Triskelios> vladd: that is very strange, maybe your unzip program converted the files to windows "text" format; i.e. adding CRLFs
[13:28:42] * Symmetria wants to try something else
[13:29:22] <vladd> I used 7zip to unzip them, are there any precedences as mine?
[13:30:40] <vladd> could someone confirm me that the sum of sizes of the extracted segments fits on a normal 4.7 GB DVD?
[13:31:06] <Triskelios> vladd: I've burnt it to DVD more than once
[13:31:13] <vladd> I'm talking about "Solaris Express build 70 DVD (Segment 1 of X), Multi-language"
[13:31:16] <Triskelios> don't have the original image with me, moment
[13:31:45] <Triskelios> rmformat says the disc is      Size: 3.4 GB
[13:32:53] <vladd> to be more exact: it's about the "x86 Platform"
[13:33:13] <Triskelios> volume.disc.capacity = 3559260160  (0xd4260000)  (uint64)
[13:33:20] <Triskelios> yeah, x86 here
[13:33:31] <Triskelios> should be 3559260160 bytes then
[13:33:55] <vladd> build 70?
[13:34:02] <Triskelios> of course
[13:34:18] <Triskelios> wait, double checking the units the capacity is in
[13:34:31] <vladd> OK, I guess I'll do this one more time and will come back with exect numbers...
[13:34:32] <Triskelios> yeah
[13:34:38] <Cyrille> each of the file is one gig, to reach your five the compression rate would have to be pretty good.
[13:34:45] <Triskelios> 3559260160 is correct
[13:34:46] <Cyrille> ^file^files
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[13:35:38] <vladd> I've remembered! I've unzipped them with Windows XP's build in ZIP explorer
[13:35:55] <vladd> anyway, Ill do this again
[13:36:07] <vladd> just to be sure
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[13:36:20] <vladd> thanks guys for your help
[13:36:51] <madhatter> re
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[15:03:16] <Gekkko[PDA]> where's kaiwai
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[15:05:10] <Tempt> fark, how do people *deal* with this Windows crap?
[15:05:35] <Tempt> *grumble grumble*
[15:05:43] <dlg> i bought a mac
[15:05:46] <Gekkko[PDA]> by hiding explorer.exe
[15:05:52] <Tempt> I'm trying to get Terminal Services working
[15:05:55] <Gekkko[PDA]> i use bblean when i must.
[15:05:57] <Tempt> through SSGD
[15:08:06] <Tempt> This shit is bananas
[15:08:26] <Gekkko[PDA]> b-a-n-a-n-a
[15:09:41] <Tempt> If I had to run Windows, I'd get the biggest meanest Opteron box Sun had and fill it with vmware
[15:09:53] <Tempt> And every time something screwed up I'd just move to the next virtual machine
[15:10:10] <Cyrille> take a snapshot at the beginning and revert to it, that'd be quicker.
[15:10:22] <edp> Tempt, a lot of people run Windows Terminal Servers in VMware and roll back to a known good snapshot every night
[15:10:50] <Tempt> Well, I've got 2003 server installed in vmware and I've got terminal services running but I can't log in
[15:10:54] <Gekkko[PDA]> whats terminal services good for?
[15:10:56] <Tempt> Correction: 1 user can log in, the other can't.
[15:10:58] <Tempt> FFS>
[15:11:11] <Cyrille> theoretically, multiple user connections to a single box.
[15:11:19] <Cyrille> not in Tempt's case, though ;-)
[15:11:28] <hile_> too bad they're fucking anal about the licensing :)
[15:11:47] <edp> Tempt, make sure you have terminal services configured for general user access as opposed to just for administrators, i think it's a setting during the initial setup
[15:12:09] <edp> in the "administrator mode" you're limited to 2 logins only from Domain Admin users
[15:12:12] <Tempt> edp: Already done that. Enabled it for the specific users and added Everyone for good luck
[15:12:22] <Cyrille> make sure you checked the "would you prefer the product to work" box.
[15:13:04] <Tempt> Now I know why the last two decent windows admins I worked with both had huge drug habits.
[15:13:52] <bda> Tempt: hahaha
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[15:16:50] <Tempt> Who is General Protection and why is he faulting my computer?
[15:21:00] <Berny> who is general failure and why is reading my hard disk?
[15:29:03] <Cyrille> strange army they've got there.
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[15:31:53] <Berny> indeed :-)
[15:32:45] <Berny> damn them ups mibs are slightly confusing...
[15:34:40] <Tempt> Alright, I give up, I think I'll leave Windows to the .. "experts"
[15:36:04] <Berny> *g* that's what every intelligent human being does 8-)
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[15:36:28] <Gekkko[PDA]> eggspurts.
[15:36:29] <Tempt> All I wanted to do was publish a couple of apps to my SSGD server
[15:36:52] <Tempt> I think the real problem is I don't have enough care factor to sit and dig through page after page of GUI options.
[15:37:43] <Berny> hmm if you by coincidence manage to get this working, let me know... i was thinking about adding one app to the ssgd server ...
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[15:38:08] <Tempt> Berny: Don't bother, just set up an XP box for a fullscreen RDP session
[15:38:09] <Berny> so far i was lucky enough to hide
[15:40:54] <Tempt> If I try this again, I'll have a Windows guy on hand.
[15:42:08] <Tempt> (and a bottle of something strong)
[15:42:27] <Gekkko[PDA]> Metho
[15:42:43] <Tempt> Well, maybe that's how they do it where you come from.
[15:42:59] <Gekkko[PDA]> oh fuck you lol.
[15:48:35] <Tempt> Hmmm
[15:48:47] <Tempt> I wonder how much I'd have to pay to get a quad opteron with 8Gb of RAM
[15:50:27] <Tempt> Probably be cheaper just to buy 4 ultra-20s.
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[16:00:42] <CIA-16> achimm: 6468144 metastat -s <setname> -c of replicated set shows Assertion failed: sp->setno == MD_MIN2SET
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[16:20:25] <nachox> morning
[16:21:04] <Tempt> morning.
[16:21:13] <Tempt> (yep, 00:21, that's morning)
[16:21:40] <nachox> go to sleep :P
[16:22:26] <Tempt> Not far off it.
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[16:28:00] <umdstu_> any exim users herte?
[16:28:16] <Tempt> yeah
[16:32:28] <holcomb> where be u4? :(
[16:35:12] <ofu> june *lol*
[16:35:56] <Tempt> u4
[16:36:01] <Tempt> you mean 12/08?
[16:40:37] <nachox> exim will be in solaris?
[16:42:07] <Tempt> Doubt it.
[16:42:52] <holcomb> heh
[16:44:24] <slavik> so, is there a fix for updatemanager and smc dying with nullpointerexception error after installing all updates?
[16:44:52] <Cyrille> what's the stack of the exception?
[16:45:30] <slavik> for updatemanager, I don't get one
[16:46:03] <slavik> smc, however, goes through awt and com.sun.management
[16:46:45] <Berny> check if removing the latest java patch repairs things
[16:47:11] <slavik> umm, to be a complete noob, how I do that? :P
[16:47:31] <slavik> I tried symlinking java to 1.4 and that didn't seem to work
[16:47:45] <slavik> java -version gives 1.5 (right now)
[16:48:29] <Berny> patchrm patchidoflavapatch
[16:48:40] <Berny> s/lava/java/
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[16:51:26] <slavik> Berny: how can I list/found out the patchid?
[16:51:40] <slavik> is this actually related to java though?
[16:52:03] <Tempt> Berny: got TS working through SSGD
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[16:52:19] <Tempt> Berny: There's an additional saga of GUI crap to go through.
[16:52:57] <Berny> Tempt: blog that ;-)
[16:53:10] <Tempt> Berny: Would you read it even if I did? :)
[16:53:45] <Berny> i would bookmark it :-)
[16:54:00] <Tempt> hah. I'll write it up tomorrow in quick and easy terms
[16:54:11] <Tempt> you know where my unix stuff ends up, don't you?
[16:55:16] <Berny> on the border to windows land?
[16:55:39] <Berny> though ironically i just got a call from some girl trying to sell my msce courses and crap
[16:56:46] <slavik> Berny: s/my/me/ ?
[16:57:12] <Berny> slavik: i'm just looking for the patch id
[16:57:17] <Berny> hold on a sec son
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[16:57:54] <slavik> ahh, ok, thanks
[16:58:00] <slavik> I am running solaris 10 though
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[16:58:34] <Berny> so am i on production boxes
[16:58:46] <slavik> k
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[17:01:20] <nachox> Tempt: TS as in trusted solaris?
[17:01:21] <Berny> btw sparc or x86?
[17:01:38] <Berny> terminal server he meant
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[17:02:15] <slavik> x86
[17:02:19] <Tempt> wow
[17:02:20] <Tempt> cool
[17:02:20] <slavik> vmware :-\
[17:02:25] <Tempt> playing video from TS via SSGD
[17:02:26] <Tempt> and it works
[17:02:29] <slavik> or was that not for me?
[17:03:02] <Berny> slavik: it was slavik
[17:03:58] <slavik> k
[17:04:37] <slavik> is there a small book/article to get a jumpstart on solaris?
[17:04:50] <Tempt> docs.sun.com
[17:04:55] <slavik> and is prior linux knowledge of any use?
[17:05:44] <slavik> Tempt: anything more concise
[17:06:12] <jafari> hello all, quick question? when you edit /etc/system in solaris to tune the kernel parameters how do you force set the parameters with out rebooting the OS for the setting to take place?
[17:07:47] <Berny> slavik: 118666-12 it is on sparc and 118667 on sparcv9 now find the x86 equiv
[17:07:56] <Cyrille> slavik, the rosetta stone page is quite good if you have a start on Linux to find out the equivalents in Solaris.
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[17:08:25] <Tempt> jafari: You can't.
[17:08:42] <Tempt> jafari: What are you trying to do?
[17:09:09] <slavik> Berny: where can I look up such information?
[17:09:48] <Berny> slavik: 118669-12 it should be on x86
[17:09:59] <jafari> Tempt i think you can someone told you, you can use the command mdb to force kernel parameters
[17:10:23] <Tempt> Using mdb to force kernel parameters is a step of last resort.
[17:10:35] <Berny> smpatch list and look for the package you know has been patched, or updatedmanager in the installed patches tab or sunsolve
[17:10:50] <Tempt> jafari: I only ask what you're trying to change, that's all.
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[17:11:16] <slavik> ty
[17:11:19] <jafari> oh, i am trying to tune Process Sizing
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[17:12:18] <Tempt> Do you mind if you panic the system?
[17:12:37] <Cyrille> why would anyone?
[17:12:40] <Cyrille> :-)
[17:12:41] <renihs> :p
[17:12:48] <jafari> how u panic the system, what will that do?
[17:12:53] <renihs> isnt panic the best way to shut down? :p
[17:13:06] <Cyrille> it will start running around performing random instructions
[17:13:18] <renihs> :))
[17:13:19] <Tempt> jafari: Seriously mate, if you don't understand what a panic is, you probably want to take things the slow and steady way.
[17:13:24] <renihs> there is no such thing as random
[17:13:34] <Cyrille> semi-random instructions then
[17:13:37] <Cyrille> ;-)
[17:13:38] <Tempt> jafari: Google will tell you how to use mdb to play with your kernel.
[17:13:39] <renihs> ok :)
[17:13:50] <jafari> can you explain what panic in solaris
[17:13:55] <Cyrille> but it won't come and fix your box once you panic it
[17:13:55] <jafari> doesnt hurt to tell me
[17:14:19] <jafari> i figured thats what IRC is for help
[17:14:30] <Cyrille> a kernel panic occurs when the kernel encounters an error condition it doesn't feel it can recover from and hence stops its operation.
[17:14:52] <jafari> cool, understood
[17:16:37] <jafari> if i use the command set <parameters> in solaris does that edit the /etc/system file for you?
[17:17:35] <Berny> nope
[17:17:45] <jafari> oh nevermind mis read a doc
[17:18:00] <Berny> if you f*ck things up its handy to have /etc/system untouched
[17:18:07] <jafari> set <parameter> is actually what i put in /etc/system correct?
[17:18:08] <Tempt> err
[17:18:11] <Berny> .oO(unless you played in there)
[17:18:14] <Berny> yes
[17:18:17] <Tempt> boot -a really removes the need to leave /etc/system virginal
[17:18:23] <jafari> no havent touched anything
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[17:18:42] <Tempt> jafari: Which exact values are you tweaking?
[17:19:05] <jafari> max_nprocs and maxuprc
[17:19:29] <Tempt> any reason why you aren't limiting using projects?
[17:19:46] <jafari> or is it maxusers for Process Sizing
[17:20:06] <jafari> what you mean limiting using projects?
[17:20:07] * Berny was wondering that as well
[17:20:13] <jafari> heheh
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[17:20:24] * Tempt smells someone reading out of date doco
[17:20:25] <Berny> man projadd :-)
[17:20:31] <jafari> im kinda new to kernel tuning in solaris never done it before
[17:20:36] <jafari> ok thanks
[17:22:10] <jafari> any reference to a doc online for projadd?
[17:22:16] <Tempt> the defaults are pretty good, you'll only want to limit max-lwps to prevent fork bombs.
[17:22:33] <Tempt> the man page isn't bad, but docs.sun.com has some details and there's some stuff on brendan's page at brendangregg.com
[17:23:23] <jafari> thanks alot guys i really appreciate holding my hands :)
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[17:29:21] <ysss> in a friendly, manly way,right?
[17:29:51] <Berny> it's not kawai *duck*
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[17:30:57] <Cyrille> what's a manly way of holding hands, I wonder...
[17:31:07] <jafari> heheheh
[17:31:08] <moazamraja> arm wrestling?
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[17:31:59] <jafari> just pointing some one in the right direction
[17:35:44] <slavik> which command gives info about a patch?
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[17:37:07] <Cyrille> showrev shows info about installed patches, not sure if it gives much info on the patches themselves
[17:38:54] <Tempt> Berny: http://www2.purplecow.org/?p=41
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[17:39:46] <jafari> what command can i use on solaris to go out and fetch all patch i need fo rmy system right now
[17:39:52] <jafari> i havent patch in a while..
[17:41:30] * Tempt thinks Berny should read the stinkin' article on terminal services
[17:41:47] <Cyrille> I think there's something like a patch manager or update manager or something, but the hardcore sysadmins will tell you you need to maybe put the recommended cluster, then for others have a look at their descriptions and what they fix and decide for yourself whether you want to install them or not.
[17:42:26] <jafari> how can i tell if i have installed the cluster patch
[17:42:42] <jafari> i think i did it why back when i first initally install the OS
[17:42:47] <jafari> but dont remember
[17:43:20] <Cyrille> Memento-style "conditions" and system administration don't go well together ;-)
[17:44:16] <jafari> do u use Sun Update Connection for Solaris 10
[17:44:20] <UGH> Tempt, you you you.... geek, still online
[17:44:33] <UGH> Cyrille: imagine you asking "so who am I chasing...."
[17:44:40] <Tempt> I'm actually heading off to bed.
[17:44:41] <UGH> and then you find out "ops,, this Blade is chasing me"
[17:44:42] <Cyrille> find the identifier (and revision number) of a patch in the recommended cluster and use showrev to figure out whether it's applied or not, that might help you remember whether you installed the cluster in the first place.
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[17:44:57] <Tempt> I've been bashing on this Windows crap for a while and now I've got Windows Apps published to SSGD.
[17:45:10] <Tempt> I've won, the machine lost, I'm having a victory cigarette and going to sleep.
[17:45:11] <Cyrille> "Where am I" "I'm... in a server room" "I've... been here for... how long?.. a day? a week?"
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[17:45:27] <Tempt> Goodnight all.
[17:45:30] <jafari> Tempt bed? what time is it in your town
[17:45:37] <jafari> where are you from papa?
[17:45:38] <Tempt> [01:45] <Tempt> Goodnight all.
[17:46:25] <UGH> night Tempt!
[17:46:57] <jafari> anyone feel like helping me with NIS on solaris, and autofs on linux?
[17:47:06] <jafari> linux is the client side
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[17:47:57] <tsoome> switch to ldap
[17:48:10] <jafari> i have gotten nis and autofs to work on the master server, but i notice on the client side linux i have a local user in /home and that user was gone until i disable nis on the client side
[17:48:11] <Cyrille> I'm sure if you can ask specific, precise questions, you'll find people are willing to help. Getting them to do your work instead of theirs isn't going to work as well, though ;-)
[17:48:40] <jafari> all i want is the master server home dir /export/home to be mounted on the client side /export/home and leave /home alone
[17:48:56] <Cyrille> change the client side autofs definition for home then
[17:49:30] <slavik> hmm, removing the patch didn't work :(
[18:00:17] <CIA-16> jasmith: 6597493 Automount using sec= options is broken in snv_72, 6597498 webnfs sec issue in nevada build 72 on all hardware
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[18:04:15] <oxygene> stevel: is deleted_files/ in the hg repo by design or a leftover of the teamware repository?
[18:04:32] <stevel> oxygene: leftover from Teamware
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[18:06:59] <flyingparchment> heh
[18:07:06] <flyingparchment> i called the sun retailer who's meant to be handling my quote
[18:07:17] <flyingparchment> "sorry, we forgot about your quote.  we'll get it to you asap!"
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[18:07:47] <sommerfeld> well, teamware does deletes by renaming to foo to something like .del-foo
[18:07:47] <flyingparchment> no wonder sun is doing shit, no-one can buy stuff from them
[18:08:25] <sommerfeld> we instead do deletes in teamware by renaming a/b/c/foo to delete_files/a/b/c/foo
[18:09:13] <oxygene> I've seen one or two .del-* files show up while converting the hg repo
[18:09:18] <oxygene> that explains it, thanks :)
[18:09:23] <sommerfeld> yeah, sometimes people screw up
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[18:12:32] <jafari> ok got the client side to work
[18:13:18] <jafari> can someone walk me thru on the nis master side to make sure i have the right setup for /export/home
[18:13:35] <jafari> to be mounted only on the client side
[18:20:11] <jafari> question for a nis master all i need running is nis and autofs correct?
[18:20:18] <jafari> or only NFS
[18:21:31] <Cyrille> I don't think autofs is required on the master. You only need to export the home directories at the expected paths for the NIS clients. I don't think NIS is much involved in that particular aspect (on the server) either.
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[18:30:20] <jafari> so only i need so i only need NFS running than
[18:31:26] <jafari> i dont understand if i dont need nis or autofs
[18:31:32] <jafari> and use NFS only
[18:31:50] <jafari> on the client side how does it know to use a nis user?
[18:32:14] <wesolows> it uses whatever's in nsswitch.conf
[18:32:34] <Cyrille> the client side may use NIS to get its passwd map, and thus know the user id and its home directory path.
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[18:33:08] <Cyrille> based on that home directory, autofs (on the client) may or may not be used to mount that path (on the client). This in turn may or may not trigger a request to an NFS server hosting said mount points.
[18:33:11] <jafari> so that tells me that i have to have some kind of nis daemon runnning correct
[18:33:12] <jafari> ?
[18:36:31] <nachox> wow, ibm's new redbook on solaris 10 is actually nice
[18:36:35] <jafari> Cyrille it sound like you know more than me
[18:36:41] <jafari> can you please help me out
[18:37:20] <wesolows> svcadm enable nis/client
[18:37:38] <wesolows> surely there's a guide somewhere to setting up a NIS client on Solaris
[18:37:39] <Cyrille> jafari, unfortunately I may know slightly more than you do on NIS, NFS and autofs, but I don't know what you're specifically trying to achieve.
[18:37:40] <jafari> wesolows this is going to be the nis master
[18:37:48] <wesolows> ok then, ypinit -m
[18:37:59] <jafari> i did that set already wesolows
[18:38:01] <wesolows> you were talking about client before, now you talk about server
[18:38:12] <jafari> ok ok ok
[18:38:24] <jafari> forget about the client side for now i have figured that out
[18:38:25] <wesolows> ok
[18:38:48] <jafari> i am trying to configure my solaris 10 box to be the nis master
[18:39:00] <jafari> and i want /export/home to be mounted on the client side
[18:39:11] <Cyrille> see, you're mixing problems again...
[18:39:17] <jafari> in /etc/auto_master i have /export         auto_home       -browse
[18:39:21] <wesolows> /export/home, or /export/home/<user>?
[18:40:01] <wesolows> and you want them mounted as /export/home/user, or /home/user?  The latter is, I believe, the default setting we ship with
[18:40:19] <Cyrille> yes, but he wants the mount points to be in /export/home
[18:40:23] <Cyrille> and not the default home
[18:40:27] <wesolows> well, that's dumb, but ok
[18:40:37] <Cyrille> or at least that's what I gathered from the earlier requirement statements.
[18:40:40] <wesolows> change /home in /etc/auto_master to /export/home
[18:40:50] <Cyrille> we were there like two hours ago...
[18:41:15] <wesolows> never mind then, I have better things to do
[18:41:16] <Cyrille> <jafari> all i want is the master server home dir /export/home to be mounted on the client side /export/home and leave /home alone
[18:41:17] <Cyrille> <Cyrille> change the client side autofs definition for home then
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[18:41:34] <jafari> ok in /etc/auto_master i have -> /export/home            auto_home       -browse
[18:42:12] <wesolows> it sounds like the problem is that you need to configure /etc/auto_home on the NIS server
[18:42:21] <wesolows> it should have entries with 2 columns
[18:42:25] <wesolows> first column, the user name
[18:42:40] <wesolows> second column, nfsserver:/export/home/<user>
[18:42:42] <jafari> in /etc/auto_home i have -> *       benz.wearless.net:/export/home/&
[18:42:47] <wesolows> supposedly there's a wildcard syntax for this
[18:42:52] <wesolows> ok
[18:42:55] <Cyrille> looks good then
[18:42:58] <wesolows> and it doesn't work?
[18:43:26] <jafari> in /etc/dfs/dfstab i have -> share -F nfs -o rw,nosuid -d "homedirs" /export/home
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[18:43:39] <jafari> is that all?
[18:43:45] <jafari> anythign else im missing?
[18:43:47] <wesolows> I don't remember how to use dfstab.  It's obsolete; use zfs sharenfs instead
[18:44:04] <jafari> that just run the command share -F nfs -o rw,nosuid -d "homedirs" /export/home at boot time
[18:44:14] <Cyrille> the nsswitch.conf should specify nis for automount, shouldn't it
[18:44:15] <jafari> im not using zfs
[18:44:22] <wesolows> yes, I know; I'm telling you that (a) I can no longer evaluate its correctness, and (b) it's obsolete
[18:44:29] <wesolows> if it's shared, fine
[18:44:34] <wesolows> that's not your problem then
[18:44:34] <jafari> oh
[18:44:53] <wesolows> if you're not using ZFS, you're just making your life harder than it needs to be
[18:45:11] <jafari> in /etc/nsswitch.conf i have -> automount:  files nis
[18:45:16] <Cyrille> ok
[18:45:24] <Cyrille> on the client side?
[18:46:02] <jafari> ok the client side im running redhat
[18:46:05] <jafari> so its different
[18:46:10] <wesolows> now you tell us
[18:46:32] <Cyrille> I mean the autofs and the nsswitch.conf stuff have to be done on the client side, where the mounts are supposed to happen.
[18:46:51] <jafari> ok, on redhat in /etc/sysconfig/network i have -> DOMAIN=wearless.net
[18:46:52] <wesolows> the automounter shipped by Red Hat is even shittier than the one in Solaris.  I doubt it works at all, and if it does I have no guidance on how to use it.
[18:46:53] <jafari> NISDOMAIN=wearless.net
[18:47:39] <jafari> in /etc/nsswitch.conf i have -> automount:  files nis
[18:47:46] <Cyrille> I imagine it should work for basic home directory mounting though, that's pretty much the core feature of automounters.
[18:47:46] <jafari> thats the client side
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[18:48:17] <jafari> i /etc/yp.conf i have -> domain wearless.net server 192.168.5.10
[18:48:18] <wesolows> Cyrille: but I think its config syntax is different
[18:48:21] <jafari> so far so good?
[18:48:30] <Cyrille> and does ypbind and ypcat automount work (on the client)?
[18:48:31] <wesolows> Cyrille: at least I remember some weirdness there
[18:49:08] <Cyrille> wesolows, that's possible, I'm not that familiar with RedHat.
[18:49:09] <jafari> on the client side in /etc/auto.master i have this -> /export /etc/auto.misc --timeout=60
[18:49:32] <jafari> in /etc/auto.misc i have -> home            -rw,soft,intr,rsize=8192,wsize=8192 benz.wearless.net:/export/home
[18:49:47] <wesolows> yeah this is where I say "sounds like you've done the right things, more or less, on your Solaris machine.  Suggest you call your Red Hat service provider."
[18:50:00] <jafari> oh boy
[18:50:05] <jafari> ok guys thanks
[18:50:18] <Cyrille> so basically, you're bypassing the NIS stuff you've set up through your automount config on the client.
[18:50:28] <jafari> but the solaris side is fine for /export/home correct
[18:51:57] <jafari> when i do ypcat hosts on the client side
[18:51:58] <Cyrille> on the client, I would just put (in auto_master) /export/home auto_home -browse and let the NIS map give you the auto_home map
[18:52:03] <jafari> it see the nis server
[18:52:44] <Cyrille> ypcat hosts has not much to do with this. What does ypcat automount give you?
[18:53:11] <jafari> No such map automount. Reason: Internal NIS error
[18:53:26] <jafari> i ran that on the client side
[18:53:29] <Cyrille> right
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[18:54:03] <Cyrille> is the nis client set up, bound to the domain and so on? I'm sorry but at that point it's RedHat specific so I'm not going to be of much help.
[18:55:02] <Cyrille> if you can run ypcat hosts I guess it is.
[18:55:59] <Cyrille> does ypcat auto_home return anything?
[18:56:47] <jafari> on the cliebt
[18:56:50] <jafari> on the client
[18:56:52] <Cyrille> yes
[18:57:00] <jafari> No such map auto_home. Reason: Internal NIS error
[18:57:11] <jafari> does that means somethign is wrong on the nis server
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[18:58:51] <Cyrille> sorry, try ypcat auto.home
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[19:01:36] <Cyrille> jafari, sorry, but I have to leave now, try and use Google, or docs.sun.com, or RedHat's help to find more info on getting NIS and automounters to work. Good luck.
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[19:06:53] <dwc-> the nis versions don't matter unless you configure the clients to use them
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[19:08:36] <dwc-> I haven't really been paying attention, but does yp work for passwords? and can you mount stuff out of server:/export/home on the client?
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[19:21:04] <axisys> can I create a second loop back interface lo0:2 and provosion that to one of the zone?
[19:21:11] <axisys> with ip 127.0.0.2
[19:21:28] <axisys> s/provosion/provision/
[19:22:09] <slavik> so, the nullpointerexception, should I fix it by reinstalling from scratch?
[19:22:13] <Marv|Home> why would you want to do that(just curious)
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[19:22:59] <slavik> Marv|Home:  me or axisys?
[19:22:59] <gdamore> *
[19:23:20] <gdamore> err... that was supposed to be "hi *" :-/
[19:23:38] <Marv|Home> anisys
[19:23:39] <slavik> hi
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[19:28:09] <slavik> quiet :)
[19:28:29] <axisys> so should this work? global# ifconfig lo0 addif  127.0.0.2 zone myzone
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[19:29:01] <axisys> cheated from zone faq but over there it was used for physcial interface .. not loopback
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[19:50:24] <fungUsm> hi all, anyone know how to refresh static-config iscsi targets on an initiator?
[19:50:45] <fungUsm> the target box lost connectivity, connections are there but the luns aren't show up for use on the initiator.
[19:52:31] <jafari> does anyone know when i running the following command it just sits there -> share -F nfs -o rw,nosuid -d "homedirs" /export/home
[19:52:43] <jafari> it doesnt return my prompt
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[20:00:19] <CIA-16> pf199842: 6556134 race between unlink() calls on a namefs node
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[20:06:00] <maxpil> does anyone know how i can import an smf manifest in a miniroot?
[20:06:23] <wesolows> into the "real" system's repository?  I don't believe you can.
[20:06:40] <seanmcg> jafari: run pstack `pgrep share` from another terminal on it
[20:06:41] <maxpil> no into the miniroot's repository
[20:06:51] <wesolows> svccfg import <xml file>
[20:07:18] <maxpil> hhm that would import into the real systems repository..
[20:07:40] <wesolows> oh you want to import something into a non-booted miniroot's repo
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[20:07:47] <maxpil> yes
[20:07:48] <wesolows> same problem as what I thought you wanted to do at first
[20:07:56] <maxpil> so, no way?
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[20:08:01] <wesolows> the interface is transactional
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[20:08:13] <LeftWing> Does the miniroot run manifest-import on the way up?
[20:08:17] <wesolows> you can ask on smf-discuss but I'm pretty sure the answer is no
[20:09:16] <maxpil> i am trying to do a netbackup recovery image with solaris 10, and i need to import some manifests from inetd.conf
[20:10:31] <maxpil> is there any way to start up these inetd services without smf?
[20:11:16] <maxpil> or to import them once the client system netboots?
[20:12:04] <Triskelios> if the manifests are in /var/svc they get imported automatically, no?
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[20:12:17] <LeftWing> Well, /var/svc/manifest
[20:12:31] <LeftWing> But only if the manifest-import stuff runs...
[20:12:33] <seanmcg> maxpil: theres a bigadmin article on it: patching the miniroot http://www.sun.com/bigadmin/features/hub_articles/patchmini.jsp need the env var SVCCFG_REPOSITORY set
[20:12:52] * LeftWing falls asleep.
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[20:17:06] <umdstu_> alright now that I have a few minutes
[20:17:17] <umdstu_> any exim users here
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[20:34:14] <Symmetria> hrm
[20:34:21] <Symmetria> does anyone here know of a packet generator that works for solaris
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[20:46:19] <umdstu_> if i want to just add a user for Exim
[20:46:26] <umdstu_> can I just do adduser exim
[20:46:31] <umdstu_> and be done with it?
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[20:54:34] <dwc-> 0
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[20:57:14] <umdstu_> nevermind
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[21:11:03] <PerterB> 
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[21:16:09] <gsauthof> hi
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[21:18:44] <gsauthof> i am curious how to get process statictics (specially the max ram usage) _after_ the process exited unted *solaris. like the 'time' command - only for mem-usage.
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[21:19:32] <gsauthof> (and unlike 'memtime' without doing sampling)
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[21:20:55] <PerterB> so sort of like timex(1) ?
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[21:21:31] <gsauthof> yes
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[21:24:35] <gsauthof> well, i am not root and it looks like system wide accounting (which timex uses) is not enabled
[21:29:25] <PerterB> so now you're changing the spec? ;)
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[21:30:06] <dos000> howdy
[21:31:10] <gsauthof> hm, no ;) - i just thought, that one could use some tool/api which does not need system wide accounting
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[21:31:50] <gsauthof> (if such thing exists)
[21:33:00] <PerterB> not for post mortem stats, I don't think... obviously while it's running you have pmap etc
[21:33:22] <serenity_> hey everybody. I've had some trouble tonight; it started after creating a RAID-Z array, and the computer wouldn't POST due to ZFSs EFI labels. I solved that by disabling the autodetect for those disks in the BIOS; BUT... Now when I boot Solaris (64a), I get an error message for a split second (at most 0.2 secs) before it resets again... The message:
[21:33:25] <serenity_> init_spec_child: parent=pseudo, bad spec (zconsnex)
[21:33:42] <serenity_> Any ideas? :/
[21:34:21] <wesolows> boot with -kdv to have it enter the debugger
[21:34:28] <wesolows> won't fix the problem, might help you debug it
[21:34:49] <wesolows> also, 64a is old and remember there were zconsnex changes a while back - check b.o.o
[21:35:15] <umdstu_> hey, does anyone use Exim?
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[21:36:23] <serenity_> yeah, it's old because I use solaris express. :) I want semi-tested code, since the box is home to all my data
[21:36:56] <serenity_> the debugger loaded, but the keyboard doesn't input anything
[21:37:15] <gsauthof> PerterB: ok - this 'memtime' tool polls every short-intervall some infos from /proc - is just not so great for short running processes - and, well polling ...
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[21:38:46] <Triskelios> serenity_: well, is it printing a crash trace?
[21:39:19] <serenity_> nope. Some info about the loaded modules, a welcome-line and [0]> with a blinking cursor
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[21:40:14] <gsauthof> i 'dream' of some api like enable_process_statistics(); r = fork(); if (r>0) statistics_waitpid(..., &stats_struct) ...   ;)
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[21:41:27] <PerterB> I dream of buxom women bringing beer, but each to their own
[21:46:09] <Triskelios> serenity_: try ":c"
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[21:47:08] <serenity_> can't type nothin', colons included :(
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[21:47:52] <Triskelios> that's strange, does the BIOS have USB keyboard support enabled?
[21:48:24] <serenity_> yup, but it's a PS/2 keyboard :) it works elsewhere, in GRUB where I edit the boot options for one
[21:50:45] <serenity_> any ideas on why it's rebooting in the first place, though? It started happening just when I disabled the disks in the BIOS (to make it boot); according to the mailing list post it should still work, though
[21:52:44] <Triskelios> serenity_: reboots usually happen after a kernel panic
[21:53:10] <Triskelios> or if it can't find the root disk
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[21:54:05] <serenity_> yeah, I suppose it's because of the disks; but the root disk should be where it was when it last worked (it was and is the primary master, and it's not one of the disabled disks either)
[21:54:10] <Triskelios> try booting with just -kv, that will only start the debugger if a panic happens, so you should see the message at least
[21:55:14] <serenity_> just for fun, what's -k for? I just tried -v and I did indeed get some more info, just gonna capture it so I can read it
[21:56:28] <Triskelios> that will prevent the system from rebooting when the crash dump finishes
[21:56:29] <serenity_> cannot mount root path. odd
[21:56:31] <Triskelios> (if there is one)
[21:56:33] <Triskelios> okay
[21:57:15] <Triskelios> the BIOS might have disabled one of the disk controllers altogether
[21:57:38] <Triskelios> and so if your root drive used to be on controller 2 it's now on 1, or so on
[21:58:25] <Triskelios> you can change /boot/solaris/bootenv.rc in failsafe
[21:58:57] <serenity_> sounds reasonable, the disks do show up in another order. I disabled one on the primary and one on the secondary IDE channels, though... but I'll have a look in there
[21:59:07] <Triskelios> "bootpath" is the variable that contains the root device
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[22:01:47] <serenity_> any pointers on how to find the "real" root device?
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[22:02:49] <Triskelios> serenity_: ls -l <path to root disk> while you're in the failsafe environment, that will be a symlink to the full path you can use
[22:03:15] <Triskelios> actually, 'format' prints it too
[22:03:40] <serenity_> ah :) now lets see
[22:04:10] <serenity_> on another note, format is a bit scary... does it actually do anything when it prints [disk formatted], after just selecting a disk? I don't have any further business in it, just wondering
[22:05:16] <Triskelios> nah, it doesn't do anything unless you use one of the commands
[22:05:44] <Triskelios> you didn't have to enter the menu, though, it lists the disks when you first start it
[22:06:02] <serenity_> yup, I know :)
[22:06:41] <serenity_> anyway... the bootpath looks right, damnit. I suppse the ":a" at the end in bootenv.rc belongs there despite not being shown in format (another guess is that it is the partition/slice identifier)
[22:07:13] <Triskelios> yeah, x86 partitions are labelled that way
[22:07:52] <Triskelios> well, that's strange if it can't find the device
[22:09:27] <Triskelios> maybe devfsadm -r /a to update the symlinks on the disk
[22:09:38] <Triskelios> it'll probably ask you to update the boot archive, too
[22:10:28] <sommerfeld> the [disk formatted] notice probably should have been [disk is already labelled]
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[22:12:40] <serenity_> devfsadm didn't help I'm afraid, it didn't ask/do anything about the boot archive though
[22:14:03] <Shinden> how to mount cdrom in opensolaris ?
[22:16:58] <nightswim> let vold do the work
[22:17:05] <Shinden> ok i got ir
[22:17:06] <Shinden> it
[22:17:07] <Shinden> ];
[22:18:53] <Triskelios> serenity_: / was mounted on /a at the time, right?
[22:19:12] <serenity_> when I typed the command, yes
[22:19:23] <Triskelios> serenity_: you can do bootadm update-archive -R /a
[22:19:48] <Shinden> time luupgrade -u -n be0_snv70 -s /mnt/x
[22:19:54] <gsauthof> bye
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[22:20:37] <serenity_> strange... it doesn't seem to actually *do* anything, it just returns to the prompt. and yeah, I'm 100% it's mounted under /a as r/w
[22:21:05] * quasi is holding off on snv70 for a while wanting to see how much the new installer broke before risking it
[22:21:25] <Triskelios> quasi: just use the old installer, it's still there
[22:21:28] <Fetch> it's really broken
[22:21:35] <Fetch> I'd sincerely wait for snv_71 or 72
[22:21:42] <Triskelios> Fetch: ...
[22:21:55] <Fetch> Triskelios: every time I tried to use the mouse, it dumped
[22:22:16] <Fetch> it went and reformatted the disklabels on all of the accessible luns of my SAN
[22:22:17] <Triskelios> Fetch: the old installer?
[22:22:21] <Fetch> the new installer, sorry
[22:22:56] <Fetch> Caiman should have the new ZFS boot hotness though, shouldn't it?
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[22:23:38] <e^ipi> does it?
[22:23:39] <Triskelios> this is just dwarf caiman, which is very very limited (not supposed to be a replacement for the current installer)
[22:24:05] <e^ipi> so, this installer is a "we broke crap for no reason" installer?
[22:24:20] <Fetch> I'm sure it needed testing exposure
[22:24:25] <Fetch> which is what Nevada builds are for
[22:24:50] <sommerfeld> this is the "it takes several strides to cross the river" installer
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[22:24:56] <Triskelios> e^ipi: nothing broke, since this was an addition... the problem is SXDE being the default boot option
[22:25:15] <e^ipi> oh... meh
[22:25:25] <e^ipi> i never use the developer install anyways
[22:25:26] <Fetch> Triskelios: does the old installer actually install SXDE?
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[22:25:42] <e^ipi> sxde = sxce, plus studio
[22:25:51] <e^ipi> just... install sxce and then install studio
[22:25:55] <e^ipi> same diff
[22:26:05] <Fetch> sounds like work :)
[22:26:23] <Triskelios> Fetch: the Studio/NetBeans stuff isn't included, but you can run the seperate installer
[22:26:42] <Fetch> Triskelios: *nod*
[22:28:32] <Fetch> Triskelios: I also found that neither installer wanted to upgrade a mirrored root install, but that's a separate issue.
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[22:28:57] * Ljuvefreya xplods
[22:29:43] <serenity_> Triskelios: I got it working! I smacked my head quite hard, though... :)
[22:29:54] <Triskelios> serenity_: what was it?
[22:30:09] <Ljuvefreya> Survivor season 6 in norway is going to suck craptastically. Not only that, but the host of the "show" runs a record company and has secured a glamour model to sing the "theme song". http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-OJvsDqOaE << not work friendly, actually, not friendly at all, its downright masochistic Playboy smurf
[22:30:22] <serenity_> I had no /etc/driver_aliases... just one named "driver_aliases.backup". dunno how the heck I managed to *move* it rather than copy. but I moved it back, updated the boot archive and rebooted, and yay!
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[22:32:09] <Triskelios> serenity_: heh
[22:32:23] <sommerfeld> Ljuvefreya: for some reason I thought the norwegians would be too sensible to have a survivor franchise.
[22:33:08] <Ljuvefreya> actually, swedish state tv began with Robinson. Survivor is a "ripoff" of Robinson, which ran 7 seasons in sweden and 5 in norway
[22:33:11] <Fetch> sommerfeld: you must not know too many Norwegians? ;)
[22:33:19] <serenity_> Now, back to my original problem... there's always something left to fix!
[22:33:35] <Ljuvefreya> so your Survivor was not the original one, it came some years AFTER Sweden began with it
[22:34:37] <serenity_> ... one of the reasons to be ashamed to be from sweden ;)
[22:34:54] * Ljuvefreya is from sweden, lives in norway now though
[22:34:55] <sommerfeld> lutefisk being another?
[22:35:02] <Ljuvefreya> lutefisk is norwegian ;)
[22:35:12] <WickedWicky> Ikea
[22:35:13] <Fetch> serenity_: the format was developed by a british poofta, anyway
[22:35:14] <Ljuvefreya> the singer in that music video is norwegian
[22:35:16] <WickedWicky> Wasa
[22:35:21] <WickedWicky> Tjena / Hejda
[22:35:27] <Ljuvefreya> tjena
[22:35:30] <WickedWicky> that's as far as my swedish goes
[22:35:33] <Ljuvefreya> aah
[22:35:34] <WickedWicky> hu mag du
[22:35:34] <Ljuvefreya> lol
[22:35:36] <WickedWicky> something like that
[22:35:39] 
[22:35:40] <WickedWicky> (how are you)
[22:35:57] <WickedWicky> god :)
[22:36:24] <WickedWicky> my neighbour at the other side of the street is dating a girl from stockholm ;-)
[22:36:58] <tsp> heh
[22:37:36] <Ljuvefreya> this is another norwegian: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aqGrgaQsIIE but this one is kind of funny, and not so work friendly
[22:37:42] <WickedWicky> Lordi?
[22:37:45] <tsp> the extent of my swedish is spelenheter
[22:37:59] <WickedWicky> I know how to call a girl 'not nice' in swedish too :P
[22:38:05] <tsp> heh
[22:38:23] <Ljuvefreya> tsp: lol ;)
[22:38:31] <tsp> I don't know what it means though
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[22:38:37] <WickedWicky> Stekis
[22:38:44] 
[22:38:54] <WickedWicky> that's frying pan if I am correctly informed
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[22:39:13] <Ljuvefreya> spelenhet = gaming device :-p
[22:39:15] <tsp> lol
[22:39:51] <tsp> got the wrong iso and have a windows xp vm stuck in swedish :)
[22:40:00] <Ljuvefreya> lol
[22:40:03] <Ljuvefreya> ugh
[22:40:14] <Ljuvefreya> I have to find a way to install Windows NT 4 for a customer tomorrow
[22:41:11] <Marv|Home> install windows 2000 and set the app to run in backward compatiable mode
[22:41:17] <Ljuvefreya> lol
[22:41:20] <tsp> Ljuvefreya: can't you just install nt4 from the cd?
[22:41:25] <Ljuvefreya> CD not bootable
[22:41:33] <tsp> floppies to boot the setup
[22:41:40] <Ljuvefreya> they weren't back then. You would make 4 floppies
[22:41:43] <Ljuvefreya> problem is my computers don't have floppy drives :-p
[22:41:47] <tsp> heh
[22:41:59] <charlesn1> Ljuvefreya: just boot the image
[22:42:04] <charlesn1> in vmware guest
[22:42:07] <Ljuvefreya> and of course the boot floppies I found aren't ISOs or anything
[22:42:13] <charlesn1> they don't have to be
[22:42:13] <Ljuvefreya> I have vmware workstation and fusion
[22:42:20] <Ljuvefreya> but the image isn't bootable
[22:42:23] <charlesn1> just set your floppy disk to an image
[22:42:26] <charlesn1> no the drive
[22:42:30] <charlesn1> hmmmm
[22:42:58] <Ljuvefreya> but I don't have an OS on the vm to use to run the EXE files to write the content to the flopy
[22:43:03] <Ljuvefreya> aaagh legacy OSs :(
[22:43:49] <micken> use freedos or drdos
[22:44:02] <micken> in vmware
[22:44:05] <charlesn1> dosemu!!!!
[22:44:21] <Ljuvefreya> this is craptastically way more work than he deserves :(
[22:44:22] <serenity_> unless, of course, the exe's are self-extracting windows PE files or such, which would suck
[22:44:33] <Ljuvefreya> they are self extracting windows files
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[22:45:03] <Stric> then you might be able to extract it with unzip/winzip
[22:45:28] <Ljuvefreya> but the file isn't standard image format
[22:45:33] <Ljuvefreya> so that doesn't help
[22:45:43] <Ljuvefreya> I need to write them out, then recapture them using a decent tool
[22:45:58] *** sioraiocht is now known as sior|away
[22:46:02] <Triskelios> micken: vmware doesn't run on solaris, but qemu does
[22:46:18] * Ljuvefreya runs solaris in vmware anyway, so that's the least of my problems ;)
[22:46:23] <Ljuvefreya> I'm on MacOS X
[22:46:44] <Stric> parallels
[22:46:56] <Ljuvefreya> vmware fusion for me
[22:47:15] <Ljuvefreya> i use vmware on windows as well, so its easier to stick to one
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[22:57:27] <tsp> this is why I hate windows. even if its in another language, it gives me problems
[22:57:58] <Triskelios> stevel: eek
[22:58:19] 
[22:59:07] <Stric> wrong password
[22:59:08] <serenity_> I'm guessing you don't need a translation? :) It wants you to enter your current password again
[22:59:23] <tsp> oh
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[22:59:47] <tsp> I'm trying to blank out the administrator password
[23:00:28] 
[23:01:23] <tsp> omg
[23:01:24] <Stric> "To verify your identity, type your current password:"
[23:01:30] <tsp> 2 days of battling this thing and it was caps lock
[23:01:49] *** alanc-away is now known as alanc
[23:01:59] <Stric> time well spent
[23:03:19] <tsp> swedish is the oddest language I've ever come across
[23:03:35] <tsp> the words are all over the place
[23:03:48] <kjetilho> tsp: then you haven't come across many -- it's very typically Western
[23:04:35] <Stric> try german.. it's stack based.. you do a whole sentence, but you push some words onto the stack.. and when you're done, empty the stack
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[23:05:32] <quasi> Stric: a very militaristic language - perfect for yelling at people
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[23:06:17] <Ljuvefreya> serenity_: that is correct
[23:06:22] <tsp> heh
[23:06:30] <tsp> esperanto is sort of cool, I picked up quite a bit of it but forgot most of it
[23:06:31] <quasi> Stric: but in the spirit of ordnung muss sein, the language is pretty straightforward gramatically
[23:07:48] <Ljuvefreya> esperanto is terrible for us germanic speakers ;)
[23:08:10] <tsp> how about ido or something weird like lojban?
[23:08:21] <Ljuvefreya> and ordnung doesn't need apply to scandinavian ;)
[23:08:22] <quasi> Ljuvefreya: esperanto is a joke that just won't die
[23:08:40] <Ljuvefreya> quasi: AMEN
[23:09:01] <quasi> (a bit like ruby ;)
[23:09:36] <tsp> heh ruby - I like python atm, and dabbled a bit in perl but could never figure it out beyond small tasks
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[23:10:31] <serenity_> ruby seems pretty nice, I started trying out rails a few days ago... seems a lot more powerful than python (which I'm quite used to)
[23:10:51] * quasi has been close to setting the RESTful webservices book on fire a couple of times because all its examples are useless ruby
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[23:11:48] <tsp> ruby doesn't have threads apparently - at least not os-level ones
[23:13:17] <serenity_> that's going to change though :) the thread support seems very bad at the moment, from what I've heard
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[23:17:08] <kjetilho> both Python and Ruby have huge problems with making the interpreter itself threadsafeee
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[23:23:51] <Ljuvefreya> www.winimage.com is my saviour! :-D
[23:23:59] <Ljuvefreya> I found WinImage boot floppy images
[23:24:29] <Ljuvefreya> Winimage 8 supports batch conversion of .EXE, .IMG and .IMZ images to .VFD and .FLP that Virtual PC and vmware can use
[23:24:35] <Ljuvefreya> and I just tested them and they actually work :)
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[23:38:42] <serenity_> nice :)
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[23:42:02] * bubbva is away: away
[23:44:10] * Ljuvefreya is going to register WinImage come paycheck day
[23:45:27] * Triskelios would not support anyone who made simple conversion software into a product
[23:46:41] <e^ipi> that's the windows/mac way
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[23:47:49] <Ljuvefreya> haha, Xeon helps
[23:47:58] <Ljuvefreya> from non existant to running NT in 2 minutes ;)
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[23:51:31] <Triskelios> not sure if that's something you should be bragging about
[23:52:23] <steleman> wowser
[23:52:42] <wesolows> especially since those images almost certainly violate the license terms of the software they contain
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[23:59:35] <Ljuvefreya> ugh
[23:59:46] <Ljuvefreya> Internet Explorer 2.0 isn't happy with Microsoft.com





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