[00:00:08] <moazamraja> altho i'm not sure that is the exact testcase/scenario
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[00:01:55] <nrubsig> sommerfeld: who wrote coreadm ?
[00:02:59] <nrubsig> alanc: ping!
[00:03:07] <mstevens> ooh, solaris has improved a lot
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[00:04:13] <alanc> nrubsig: pong
[00:04:32] <nrubsig> alanc: do you have time to watch the triage queue in the next 15mins, please ?
[00:04:39] <alanc> sure
[00:04:54] <alanc> filed a bug yesterday that should finally be coming in soon?   8-)
[00:05:53] <sommerfeld> nrubsig: why does who matter?
[00:06:08] <nrubsig> groan
[00:06:22] <nrubsig> sommerfeld: because I'd like to need a contact who answers some design questions
[00:06:40] <nrubsig> sommerfeld: coreadm is nice but it has some things which... which... suck.
[00:08:46] <nrubsig> doesn anyone know which bug component is the best choice for |libc::wordexp()| ?
[00:09:39] <alanc> hmm, saw a wordexp() bug update this morning
[00:10:20] <wesolows> the person who wrote coreadm may or may not still be a part of our community
[00:10:21] <alanc> looks like I deleted the mail though
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[00:10:35] <wesolows> you should address your concerns to the appropriate community group instead of looking for an individual
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[00:10:42] <wesolows> of course, the right CG for that is harder to know
[00:10:46] <sommerfeld> more than one person did significant work on coreadm
[00:10:55] <wesolows> (that too)
[00:11:10] <alanc> looks like most wordexp bugs are solaris/library/libc
[00:11:13] <sommerfeld> I'd start on opensolaris-code at opensolaris dot org.  At least one of the authors has responded there recently.
[00:11:37] <sommerfeld> and community group isn't the right target.  mailing list is.
[00:11:55] <wesolows> in this case, sadly
[00:12:05] <wesolows> because there's no appropriate community group
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[00:12:16] <wesolows> but the CGs are supposed to be the repositories of technical knowledge and experience
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[00:12:36] <wesolows> the relevant CG should exist, and should have one or more mailing lists where this sort of thing would be welcome
[00:13:28] <alanc> would that just be the ON community or a core-userspace-libs-and-utils community?
[00:14:39] <sommerfeld> or core-userspace-admin-tools-for-kernel-features community
[00:15:41] <wesolows> presumably the ON community group would exist if alanc's consolidation mechanism exists
[00:15:55] <wesolows> I would expect such a CG to capture anything in ON not handled by other groups
[00:16:00] <wesolows> less than satisfactory, I agree
[00:17:10] <alanc> there is an ON community already, it's just devoid of mailing lists or any other means of communicating with it
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[00:17:28] <wesolows> I thought it was named onnv still
[00:17:30] <wesolows> maybe not
[00:17:50] <alanc> onnv is the project the ON community sponsors to host the gate
[00:18:00] <wesolows> I understand your plan, and agree with it.
[00:18:17] <wesolows> But clearly it's not really in place yet.
[00:18:32] <wesolows> Ok, it's the ON community group but the side nav panel calls it the Nevada Community.
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[00:18:36] <alanc> yeah, and I've been too busy lately to do much about it
[00:18:37] <wesolows> That seems busted.
[00:18:40] <nrubsig> alanc: bug filed.
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[00:19:51] <wesolows> huh, that's interesting
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[00:20:09] <wesolows> press control-C on a blank line and $? gets set to 1
[00:20:22] <wesolows> on ksh it's 130
[00:20:55] <wesolows> both are surprising
[00:21:19] <wesolows> I'm sure our shell guru knows why it's that way
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[00:25:38] * nrubsig scratches his head
[00:25:52] <nrubsig> wesolows: first guess would be command substitution or something like that.
[00:26:28] <nrubsig> interesting part is that it is +3 above 127, the highest allowed return code
[00:26:35] <nrubsig> for apps AFAIK
[00:27:03] <nrubsig> ksh93 returns 258, which is +3 above 255, the highest allowed return code for POSIX shells
[00:27:45] * nrubsig is away for 15mins
[00:28:31] <wesolows> presumably it's the return code for SIGINT
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[00:43:21] <jtmuzix> what is the most I should pay for a blade 2500 with 2 X 1.6 ghz sparc IIIi processors, 4 gigs ram, 2 X 142 gig scsi HD, XVR1200, sunPCI IIIpro x86 board?
[00:43:44] <jtmuzix> would it be much faster than my blade 2000?
[00:44:36] <jtmuzix> i have a blade 2000 with 2 X 1.2 ghz sparc IIIcu, 4 gigs, xvr1000, 2 X 73 HD's
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[00:51:59] <nrubsig> benr: Hi! :-)
[00:53:11] <moazamraja> jtmuzix: $600-$700 USD
[00:53:19] <moazamraja> oh..2500..hmm.
[00:53:25] <moazamraja> dunno much about 2500s.
[00:53:38] <nrubsig> alanc: anything in the bug triage queue ?
[00:54:02] <alanc> not that I see
[00:54:26] <alanc> well, nothing new from you that is - there are 9 bugs there
[00:54:54] * nrubsig HATES waiting for the bug ids
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[00:55:02] <alanc> suppose I could triage some of those out - my worst guess for a cat is probably better than letting them rot in the queue
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[00:56:24] <alanc> hmm "machine won't boot" is a P5?   someone seems to be confused...
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[01:07:58] <Tpenta> unless it's a *very* unimportant machine ;)
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[01:10:45] * nrubsig hails kupfer , slayer of bugs, master of the source tree, famed warrior in the forums and someone who cooks chicken quite well...
[01:11:08] <kupfer> lol
[01:11:14] <kupfer> what's up?
[01:11:25] <Tpenta> lol
[01:11:51] <nrubsig> mom
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[01:14:10] * stevel didn't know kupfer was a master chicken-cook
[01:14:31] <Tpenta> a man of hidden talent
[01:14:43] <kupfer> it was pretty handy while I was dating.  Women seem to like it when the guy can cook.
[01:15:24] <agliodbs> I'll second that
[01:15:31] <agliodbs> it also helps with the in-laws
[01:15:35] <Tpenta> i have a friend who thinks like that, see http://www.ctrl.com.au/iain/cookbook/
[01:16:02] <agliodbs> my wife's father treated me with deep suspicion until I make dinner for the family
[01:16:18] <agliodbs> wife quote: "The way to a man's daughter is through his stomach."
[01:16:25] <kupfer> heh
[01:16:26] <Tpenta> lol
[01:17:04] <stevel> lol
[01:17:15] <stevel> i won my father in law over when i fixed his computer
[01:17:21] <agliodbs> heh
[01:17:28] <Tpenta> the guy who did that page has two importants rules about cooking with wine.
[01:17:29] <Tpenta> 1. If it's not good enough for the cook, it's not good enough for the food
[01:17:29] <Tpenta> 2. Food and cook in equal proportions
[01:17:29] <theRealballchalk> how do i list which file is in use through a PID?
[01:17:34] <agliodbs> I made the mistake of migrating my FIL to Linux
[01:17:52] <agliodbs> Tpenta: I don't get the 2nd rule
[01:18:05] <Tpenta> the cook gets at least as much of the wine as the food
[01:18:12] <stevel> the real winner was when i installed a voip "line" in their house in Taiwan so they could have a bay area phone # to talk to their daughters (both in Cali)
[01:18:23] <agliodbs> Tpenta: ah, the Julia Child quote
[01:18:37] <agliodbs> "I love cooking with wine.  Sometimes I even put it in the food."
[01:18:40] <Tpenta> lol
[01:18:53] <agliodbs> stevel: that'll help
[01:19:18] <agliodbs> stevel: mind you, that makes it more likely they'll call just when you don't want them to
[01:19:35] <kupfer> theRealballchalk: are you thinking of the pfiles command?
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[01:20:00] <stevel> agliodbs: it's not too bad. there's a narrow window of the day where it's convenient for US & Taiwan to talk over the phone
[01:20:07] <theRealballchalk> no i was trying to use 'lsof' on solaris and found fuser but i don't understand it
[01:20:18] <theRealballchalk> i'm not sure if 'fuser is what i'm looking for
[01:20:58] <kupfer> you give fuser a file or filesystem, and it tells you who's using it.
[01:21:07] <kupfer> you give pfiles a pid, and it tells you what files it has open.
[01:21:19] <theRealballchalk> ohhhh
[01:21:31] <theRealballchalk> kupfer: thanks
[01:23:59] <theRealballchalk> yea that's what i was looking for
[01:24:01] <theRealballchalk> pfiles heh
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[01:25:18] <stevel> tamr? as in benr's tamr?
[01:25:31] <tamr> yes :)
[01:25:38] *** benr sets mode: +o tamr
[01:25:45] <tamr> I found a new program for mac's..I'm trying it out here
[01:25:46] <benr> no bias. :)
[01:25:50] <tamr> hehe
[01:25:52] <stevel> benr: sure, none at all :-P
[01:26:11] *** benr sets mode: +o brendang
[01:26:21] *** benr sets mode: +o comay
[01:26:29] <dlg> benr!
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[01:26:35] <benr> hey. :)
[01:26:41] <dlg> hows it going?
[01:27:06] *** benr sets mode: +o richlowe
[01:27:21] <stevel> it's happy happy ops day in #opensolaris :-P
[01:27:41] *** stevel sets mode: +o alanc
[01:27:42] <benr> i haven't stayed on top with dishing out ops properly.
[01:28:09] <tamr> no kidding...you're slacking off, clearly
[01:28:10] *** benr sets mode: +o boyd
[01:28:23] <benr> sorry... its my demanding wife.
[01:28:33] <benr> she never lets me keep up with my ops duties. ;)
[01:28:35] * benr ducks
[01:28:36] <tamr> she nags
[01:30:01] <benr> alanc, nice talk last night, btw.
[01:30:22] <alanc> you couldn't tell we put it together earlier yesterday?
[01:30:31] <alanc> thanks though
[01:30:33] <benr> you put something together?
[01:30:36] <benr> :)
[01:31:00] <alanc> we made slides!
[01:31:02] <benr> its always fun just seeing someone elses desk top and getting an update... no big preso is needed, you've got pretty stuff to show. :)
[01:31:06] <benr> url?
[01:31:20] <alanc> and some of them even had correct information on!
[01:31:30] <benr> eek....... you'll start a trend. :)
[01:31:44] <alanc> for the slides? http://blogs.sun.com/alanc/resource/svosug_august.pdf
[01:32:23] <alanc> even had the obligatory SUNW->JAVA reference on the title page, which only one person in the room hadn't heard about yet
[01:33:14] <alanc> you can probably tell my slides vs. stuart - I put more into the slides and end up mostly reading, he just puts bits on the slides and fills in the details as he talks
[01:34:11] <benr> HAHAHA.
[01:45:09] <nrubsig> alanc: ping!
[01:45:17] <nrubsig> alanc: any news about the triage queue ?
[01:45:42] <alanc> nope
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[02:04:13] * nrubsig pokes benr
[02:04:50] * nrubsig realises that comay is around...
[02:04:51] *** Trisk[laptop] has quit IRC
[02:04:54] <nrubsig> comay: Hi! :-(
[02:05:37] <nrubsig>  /whois tamr
[02:05:39] <nrubsig> er
[02:05:40] <nrubsig> sorry
[02:11:08] * nrubsig makes black tea
[02:16:26] <tamr> I"m benr's wifely person
[02:16:50] <Tpenta> hey there tamr, good to see you online
[02:17:49] <tamr> ty :)
[02:18:24] <tamr> I usually frequent a yahoo room, but yahoo hates life these days and I've given up trying to make the relationship work
[02:18:31] <tamr> so I switched to the dark side of irc
[02:19:25] * nrubsig greets tamr, the Dark Jedi Exile!
[02:19:46] * Tpenta is tryingto get his recording stuff set up and working
[02:20:02] <benr> doing a podcast?
[02:20:32] <Tpenta> ummm not quite that kind of recording .... http://myspace.com/alanhargreaves
[02:21:10] <stevel> tamr: buy yahoo chocolates. that should fix up the relationship
[02:22:35] <Tpenta> isn't it funny how headphones work better when you have the pair that you are wearing plugged in (rather than the pair that you are not wearing) ?
[02:22:49] <g4lt-sb100> NO WAI
[02:23:38] <Tpenta> no wai what?
[02:24:09] <benr> Tpenta, myspace gives me a rash. :(
[02:24:21] * Tpenta is registered as an artist
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[02:32:28] <tamr> yahoo is fickle.  I don't think if I even bought its stock it would love me again.
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[02:40:29] <nrubsig> tamr: /msg benr Thanks! :-)
[02:41:54] *** theRealballchalk has quit IRC
[02:44:20] <tamr> message received
[02:44:29] <tamr> he's doing something with wires in the garage
[02:45:32] <nrubsig> tamr: homemade electric chair ?
[02:45:40] <nrubsig> (okok, bad joke)
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[02:45:45] <tamr> hehe
[02:46:12] <nrubsig> Mhhh...
[02:46:15] * nrubsig gets hungry
[02:46:20] <nrubsig> roast-beef
[02:46:23] <nrubsig> fresh
[02:46:27] <nrubsig> human
[02:46:54] <nrubsig> with fresh goo from yellowfish
[02:47:43] <tamr> or you could just get KFC..
[02:48:09] <nrubsig> tamr: WTF is "KFC" ? Krokodile-Filled-Candies ?
[02:48:10] <wesolows> if you want to die a horrible death at an early age after experiencing little joy
[02:48:25] <wesolows> nrubsig: worse :-(
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[02:48:46] <nrubsig> gdamore: congratilations!
[02:49:50] <tamr> heathens
[02:50:05] <tamr> it is manna from Pepsi corp., in the shape of a chicken wing
[02:50:06] <nrubsig> tamr: Krustyburger-Filled-with-Caktus ?
[02:50:13] <nrubsig> erm
[02:50:16] <tamr> kentucky fried chicken, for the layman
[02:50:29] <nrubsig> ah
[02:50:51] <tamr> granted, benr is making steaks for us tonight, so I'm off the hook for dinner
[02:50:51] <wesolows> if you like mcdonald's but feel it could really be greasier, KFC is perfect
[02:50:53] <nrubsig> wesolows: what's the problem with FRC (frield rotten chicken) from KGC ?
[02:51:15] <nrubsig> s/KGC/KFC/
[02:51:23] <tamr> KFC: go for the chicken, stay for the coleslaw
[02:51:32] <wesolows> nrubsig: It's your standard gross American "fast food" which is low quality "food" deep fried in vile grease
[02:51:37] <nrubsig> WTF is "coleslaw" ?
[02:51:47] <nrubsig> wesolows: nice
[02:52:09] <idnar> coleslaw from a fast food joint sounds rather unappetizing
[02:52:11] <nrubsig> Chickenteror!
[02:52:18] <nrubsig> er
[02:52:21] <nrubsig> Chickenterror!
[02:52:31] <wesolows> Its main selling points are that it's high in calories and saturated fat, inexpensive, and has a drive-through so that you never have to leave your car (in which you, as an American, spend approximately 130 hours a week)
[02:52:36] * nrubsig wishes his jokes wouldn't be ruined by typos all the time
[02:52:48] <idnar> it's a cabbage salad, basically; shredded raw cabbage, usually with a mayonnaise or vinegar-bassed dressing
[02:53:48] <tamr> I really didn't know KFC coleslaw could be this controversial...benr could eat it by the bucket
[02:53:57] <tamr> so if you ever need to get on his good side....fyi......
[02:54:08] <wesolows> they sell it by the bucket now?  wow
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[02:54:15] * wesolows orders a bucket of coleslaw for benr
[02:54:24] <tamr> ha, no.  I think they're smarter than that
[02:54:26] <reidms> eww coleslaw
[02:54:29] <wesolows> I'll store it in the fridge until I need him to review something
[02:54:38] <tamr> hehehe
[02:55:02] <tamr> I really need to figure out how to make it from scratch
[02:55:18] <wesolows> isn't it just running cabbage through a shredder and then covering it in mayo?
[02:55:26] <tamr> probably
[02:55:35] <tamr> but who knows!  It could use camel milk for all I know
[02:55:38] <idnar> pretty much
[02:55:43] <wesolows> whatever's cheapest, I'm sure
[02:55:50] <tamr> miracle whip
[02:55:51] <idnar> maybe add some shredded carrot to go with it
[02:55:58] <reidms> Anyway to upgrade SXCE without using media?(For some weird reason b70 wont boot on my system)
[02:56:05] <wesolows> camel, monkey, squirrel, whatever
[02:56:06] <tamr> and pineapple, for the exotic coleslaw
[02:56:24] <wesolows> reidms: netboot
[02:56:34] <idnar> you could go for the asian theme and add dry noodles / almonds
[02:56:41] <wesolows> reidms: but, um, if it won't boot, why would you want to upgrade to it? :-)
[02:57:09] <reidms> The b70 dvd wont boot on her
[02:57:18] <reidms> the OS boots fine
[02:57:27] <reidms> and netboot on x86?
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[02:58:03] <tamr> I'm allergic to noodles, so none of that
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[02:59:06] <gdamore> another DLPI driver bites the dust....
[02:59:23] <nrubsig> gdamore: congratulations!
[02:59:41] <gdamore> got an rtls update to GLDv3 pending too... as soon as my RTI advocate approves it I'll put that one back too.
[02:59:43] <gdamore> but thanks.
[02:59:47] <nrubsig> gdamore: I will be able to boot a U5 with QFE after that part, right ?
[02:59:59] <gdamore> you should be able to, yes.
[03:00:16] <nrubsig> gdamore: diskless U5, too ?
[03:00:17] <CIA-16> gd78059: PSARC 2007/404 QFE/HME merge, 6590092 qfe should use common hme GLDv3 code
[03:00:18] <wesolows> netboot on x86 yes if your system supports PXE
[03:00:18] <gdamore> i don't think I've done anything to bust up network booting... though I confess I didn't specifically try that.
[03:00:35] <gdamore> this is Ultra 5--- SPARC only.
[03:00:41] <gdamore> there is still no qfe for x86 systems.
[03:00:53] <wesolows> reidms: my point is how do you know nv70 boots fine if you can't install it and the install media for it (which uses the same kernel) won't boot?
[03:01:21] <gdamore> sorry... crossed threads...
[03:01:36] <reidms> ahhh PXE
[03:01:55] <wesolows> for that matter, do you have a failure mode?
[03:02:07] <wesolows> panic on boot, grub hang, no boot (bad media?), etc.?
[03:02:19] <gdamore> even if your system doesn't support PXE, its still possible.  you need an etherboot PXE cdrom though.  I think etherboot.org or somesuch will let you create one.
[03:02:29] <reidms> No- b57 is on the box- It installed and works fine- There is a bug not letting B70 dvd boot
[03:02:39] <wesolows> ok
[03:02:44] <reidms> The media is fine- tested with a mactel
[03:02:45] <wesolows> in that case, netboot or wait for 71
[03:03:15] <reidms> I might try 69
[03:03:38] <reidms> X86 is nasty
[03:03:50] * reidms hugs sparc box
[03:03:54] <wesolows> you like 'em cheap, you get 'em nasty
[03:04:04] <wesolows> use protection
[03:04:47] <reidms> lol
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[03:05:21] <nrubsig> wesolows: any news from the bug triage queue
[03:05:24] <nrubsig> ?
[03:06:05] <wesolows> huh?
[03:06:16] <palowoda> gdamore:  You know what chipset is in this and if there are drivers for solaris? http://www.dlink.com/products/?sec=0&pid=406
[03:07:03] <nrubsig> wesolows: erm, do you have access to the bugs.opensolaris.org bug triage queue ?
[03:07:16] <wesolows> yes
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[03:07:40] <nrubsig> wesolows: is there a bug related to |libc:wordexp()| there ?
[03:07:47] <gdamore> its probably a marvell or syskonnect board... I am not sure.
[03:08:35] <palowoda> Couldn't tell from the box either.  They had them at Fry's for 49.00.
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[03:09:06] <gdamore> yeah, gige is getting cheap....
[03:09:22] <gdamore> realtek 8169's are your best bet for cheap, easily supported NICs on Solaris.
[03:09:31] <wesolows> nrubsig: no
[03:09:42] <palowoda> Those are only 10.00 but no pxe jumbo frames vlan nothing.
[03:10:11] <gdamore> no pxe, but vlan yes.  and I *think* most of them support jumbo frames.
[03:10:15] <nrubsig> Ok, I herely officially curse bugs.opensolaris.org
[03:10:22] <Red_Cloud> I am aware that my question is off topic but the tor channel is populated with cadavers.  I have installed tor on solaris 10 and am having trouble getting it to run as daemon. Help?
[03:10:34] <palowoda> Oh.  Opps din-din alarm went off.
[03:11:12] <gdamore> hmmm... rge jumbo == 7K for some bizarro reason.
[03:12:48] <nrubsig> Is cursing Solaris like in http://svn.genunix.org/repos/on/branches/ksh93/gisburn/scripts/shnote.ksh allowed or will that be removed during code review ?
[03:13:22] <gdamore> try syskonnect.de... their drivers might work, but I cannot promise.
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[03:28:33] <Doc> hmm.. 320 comments on
[03:28:56] <Doc> hmm.. 320 comments on Jonathans latest blog entry, and no more than single digits of them think it's a good idea
[03:29:51] <Gman> probably his most commented blog entry to date
[03:30:10] <tamr> I'm leaving you all for benr
[03:30:15] <tamr>  :)
[03:30:15] <trs81> http://www.linuxworld.com/community/?q=node/1340 has a link to a study saying clever-ticker stocks beat the market
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[03:33:15] <nrubsig> jmcp: ping!
[03:34:36] <Doc> he may not be awake - it's still 1986 where he is
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[03:41:04] <Doc> tamr: that study does not consider cause and effect
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[03:44:00] <pg_user> SUNW => JAVA
[03:44:32] <pg_user> it should be SUNW => SOLARIS
[03:44:37] <pg_user> on the ticker
[03:44:43] <Tpenta> stock tickers ar 4 characters
[03:44:58] <wesolows> not all of them, but yes
[03:45:01] <pg_user> does this signal a strategy change?
[03:45:09] <wesolows> don't ask us, ask jonathan
[03:45:12] <wesolows> his blog says no
[03:45:23] <pg_user> hehe.  That's what they all say
[03:45:30] <wesolows> feel free to join the hundreds of people who've told him this is dumb
[03:45:45] <pg_user> I actually respected jon until this point
[03:45:55] <pg_user> now I'm scared for sun's future
[03:46:02] <wesolows> tell him that too, then
[03:46:16] <wesolows> telling us does nothing
[03:46:31] <pg_user> SUN is a great company.  It needs a good management team. I bet sun could  pull an APPLE if it had a steve jobs type leader
[03:46:53] <wesolows> if steve jobs or someone like him were installed as CEO, I'd quit the same day.
[03:47:00] <pg_user> really?  How come?
[03:47:07] <wesolows> apple is on the list of companies I'd never work for
[03:47:16] <wesolows> secrecy, paranoia, and cult of personality
[03:47:22] <wesolows> management making engineering decisions that can't be overruled
[03:47:31] <wesolows> terrible, terrible place to be an engineer
[03:47:35] <pg_user> i see
[03:48:07] <pg_user> then i guess bill gates would be a bad boss too?
[03:48:24] <wesolows> what I've heard about working for microsoft is pretty bleak, too, but not in the same way
[03:48:27] <moazamraja> hmm...
[03:48:30] <wesolows> more that you're just a cog there
[03:48:30] <moazamraja> interesting. :)
[03:48:37] <moazamraja> <-- cog
[03:48:38] <wesolows> but it's irrelevant anyway since their technology is shit
[03:48:45] <moazamraja> apple cog
[03:48:50] <moazamraja> quite true tho
[03:48:53] <pg_user> shit sells
[03:48:54] <moazamraja> working at apple was coggish.
[03:49:14] <pg_user> that's why ms and dell make loads of cash.  most people love shit
[03:49:37] <moazamraja> i'm out
[03:49:38] <moazamraja> l8rs
[03:49:41] <wesolows> I don't have to work.  I don't really care how well something sells, I care how good it is.  To the extent that making something better can make it sell, I like that.  I want happy customers and I want as many of them as possible.  But not ay any cost.
[03:50:04] <pg_user> what part do you on?
[03:50:08] <pg_user> kernel?
[03:50:14] <pg_user> userland?
[03:50:17] <wesolows> If the only companies in the market for my skills sell shit, I just won't work any more.
[03:50:20] <wesolows> Yes.
[03:50:27] <wesolows> All of the above.
[03:50:30] <pg_user> cool
[03:50:51] <pg_user> i just switched over from linux last 6 months ago
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[03:51:04] <pg_user> i just switched over from linux  6 months ago
[03:51:18] <wesolows> yeah I worked on Linux for 7 years before bailing out 4 years ago.
[03:51:44] <pg_user> i had a need for dtrace which is why I bailed on linux
[03:52:05] <wesolows> if you could get DTrace on Linux, would you have started using Solaris?
[03:52:16] <pg_user> no.
[03:52:28] <pg_user> I would have tried it, but not stayed on it.
[03:52:29] <wesolows> What if the only way to get DTrace on Linux were to add on something youself (not available from Red Hat or Ubuntu or whatever)?
[03:53:03] <pg_user> would I be able to have zfs too?
[03:53:14] <wesolows> with FUSE, sure
[03:53:14] <pg_user> and sun studio?
[03:53:28] <wesolows> I think studio already brags about their GNU/Linux support.
[03:53:38] <pg_user> with FUSE, I wouldn't like the performance hit
[03:53:39] <wesolows> They don't seem to care about Solaris, at least not like we do.
[03:54:00] <pg_user> i don't use GNU extensions
[03:54:08] <pg_user> remember GNU's Not Unix
[03:54:11] <wesolows> you mean gcc extensions?
[03:54:24] <wesolows> not sure what you mean there
[03:54:33] <pg_user> wesolows: gnu tool always have some additional features
[03:54:46] <wesolows> Sure.  I'm not sure what you're referring to though.
[03:55:34] <nrubsig> pg_user: problem is that these extensions sometimes come at the expense of standards conformance
[03:55:50] <pg_user> yes, that is what I meant nrubsig
[03:56:44] <nrubsig> pg_user: or at the expense of usefullness in non-GNU-supported environments (like all GNU tools slowly moving to UTF-8-only support, leaving customers who need stuff like zh_CN.GB18030 or ja_JP.PCK behind)
[03:57:03] <nrubsig> pg_user: the bash shell is a good example for this madness
[03:57:15] <nrubsig> (sorry for bash shell bashing but this issue sucks)
[03:57:26] <nrubsig> however part of the problem is readline, too ;-(
[03:57:45] <pg_user> i agree.  when you start with linux as your first unix like os, you learn bad habits
[03:58:21] <pg_user> going from linux to solaris required a lot of tinkering and time
[03:58:43] <pg_user> i went from bash to ksh as my shell.
[03:59:52] * nrubsig smiley... like a evil reptile...
[03:59:56] <nrubsig> pg_user: which ksh ?
[04:00:06] <nrubsig> (version)
[04:00:13] <wesolows> pdksh, of course, the True Version
[04:00:14] <pg_user> the one that's included in solaris 10 11/06
[04:00:31] <nrubsig> wesolows: pdksh is dead since 1999
[04:00:43] <nrubsig> pg_user: groan
[04:00:44] <wesolows> nrubsig: I was yanking your chain.
[04:00:50] <nrubsig> wesolows: ?!
[04:00:59] <pg_user> ah, i didn't know that there was something wrong with ksh
[04:01:07] <nrubsig> pg_user: erm
[04:01:14] <wesolows> pg_user: There's not.  But nrubsig thinks ksh93 should replace all other shells.
[04:01:29] <nrubsig> pg_user: nothing directly wrong with the old ksh except that it's old and there is a newer version
[04:01:30] <nrubsig> wesolows: erm
[04:01:33] <nrubsig> wesolows: _NO_
[04:01:39] <pg_user> erm?
[04:01:46] <nrubsig> wesolows: I am trying to stay neutral if possible
[04:01:47] * wesolows stops pushing nrubsig's buttons
[04:01:52] <pg_user> shall I try csh?
[04:01:56] <nrubsig> ugh
[04:01:58] <wesolows> definitely not csh
[04:02:01] <wesolows> csh is terrible
[04:02:09] * Tpenta uses csh as defult interactive shell and has done for a long time
[04:02:17] <wesolows> you should use whatever makes you happy
[04:02:27] <wesolows> but please don't write shell scripts in csh or tcsh
[04:02:33] <nrubsig> pg_user: my point is that /usr/bin/ksh in Solaris is the old ksh while there is a new version soon which is slightly less sucky
[04:02:56] <Tpenta> mind you, if i know i'm going to be dong a lot of cmd line editing (eg troubleshooting with dtrace) then you'll see a real quick "% exec ksh -o vi"
[04:03:01] <pg_user> how is ksh sucky? I didn't even notice.  I actually preferred it to gnu bash!
[04:03:20] <wesolows> it doesn't have complex number support!
[04:03:34] <pg_user> ksh or csh?
[04:03:37] <Tpenta> what did you just say about nrubsig's buttong keith?
[04:03:38] * Tpenta grins
[04:03:55] <wesolows> Tpenta: it was too tempting...
[04:04:00] <Tpenta> LOL
[04:04:44] <nrubsig> pg_user: when I say "ksh" I mean the old ksh88, which means "korn shell based on spec from 1988"
[04:04:57] <nrubsig> pg_user: ksh88 has some minor and major details wrong
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[04:05:04] <nrubsig> pg_user: this is all fixed in ksh93
[04:05:22] <pg_user> like what?  I'm not a shell power user.  I just use it to control jobs and such
[04:05:28] <pg_user> and starting vim
[04:05:37] <boyd> gdamore: Hey, doe your new wfe work on x86?
[04:05:39] <nrubsig> pg_user: for a normal interactive user you only find some things appying in ksh88, but for a script writer ksh88 has some ... uhm... issues
[04:05:42] <boyd> s/dow/does
[04:05:58] <wesolows> boyd: seems not, given how much corruption seems to occur
[04:06:25] <boyd> wesolows: ?
[04:06:29] <pg_user> has there been any talk of opening up sun studio under the CDDL?
[04:06:41] <boyd> wesolows: is this the checksum calc issue?
[04:06:50] <nrubsig> pg_user: well. ksh93 has TAB completion support, gets i18n (non-ANSI characters) correct, has floating-point maths and no longer any variable/length/etc. limits
[04:07:15] <wesolows> boyd: I was referring to the corruption evident in your typing
[04:07:42] <boyd> wesolows: :P
[04:07:49] <pg_user> I like doing the [esc] \ completion
[04:07:59] <pg_user> it makes me seem cooler at work
[04:08:13] <pg_user> all the linux guys scratch their heads
[04:08:34] <pg_user> when they are looking over when I ssh into my sun box
[04:08:37] <boyd> wesolows: Unfamilar laptop with unfamiliar keyboard
[04:08:48] <brendang> ksh93 has sub-second timeouts. thank GOD! How else are we supposed to write ASCII games ?!?
[04:09:12] <pg_user> ASCII games!!!!!!!!!!!
[04:09:29] <brendang> I bet nrubsig knows where some ksh93 games are
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[04:09:43] <pg_user> i'm reading jon's blog right now.  he is getting grilled.
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[04:10:07] <pg_user> if 99 percent of the people think somethings a bad idea, most likely it is
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[04:10:24] <wesolows> not necessarily
[04:10:36] <wesolows> it might be, but at least 99% of people are complete morons
[04:10:50] <pg_user> true
[04:11:03] <pg_user> so maybe SUN marketing has struck marketing gold here
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[04:11:22] <boyd> It had to happen by accident eventually
[04:11:27] <pg_user> hehe
[04:11:49] <pg_user> i've heard it said that SUN would be better off without a marketing department.
[04:11:57] <pg_user> just hire more engineers
[04:12:26] <gdamore> boyd: wfe?  you mean qfe?
[04:12:39] <wesolows> hiring more engineers would be a great idea
[04:12:51] <wesolows> perhaps we should start with the droves who departed for google, vmware, etc.
[04:12:52] <boyd> gdamore: yes, sorry, someone elses keyboard
[04:12:54] <gdamore> if you mean qfe... it is not x86 -yet-.  i might work on that next week.
[04:13:05] <gdamore> i also want to make dmfe work on x86, and rtls work on sparc. :-)
[04:13:22] <gdamore> and I *hope* I can putback my own afe and mxfe drivers next week.
[04:13:24] <jbk> hello
[04:13:27] <boyd> gdamore: Stop doing all this good work. My wife is getting jealous
[04:13:28] <nrubsig> steleman: ping!
[04:13:35] <pg_user> hey, SUN has Andy B. back!
[04:13:36] <brendang> wern't we going to replace Sun Marketing with volunteers from OpenSolaris?
[04:13:45] <wesolows> pg_user: long time ago, we bought his company
[04:13:50] <boyd> brendang: Did
[04:13:59] <boyd> brendang: Did Joerg volunteer?
[04:14:03] <wesolows> brendang: we got the second part, but the marketing org refused to RIF itself into oblivion
[04:14:43] <gdamore> boyd: who's your wife? :-)
[04:14:50] <brendang> wesolows: how sad - what will they do? maybe they could pick up some engineering slack.
[04:14:58] <gdamore> btw, i just committed the rtls GLDv3 conversion....
[04:15:01] <wesolows> no, they have no skills
[04:15:35] <pg_user> Rich teer and the rest of the cabal saved sun
[04:15:40] <wesolows> we'd actually be better off hiring high school grads who were working at mcdonald's; they're no better at engineering than the marketing dept. but they do cost less, and they don't all demand Director titles.
[04:15:55] <pg_user> opensolaris IMHO saved sun
[04:16:06] <brendang> wesolows: they should pick up some Linux engineering slack then.
[04:16:10] <wesolows> nope
[04:16:20] <wesolows> Andy and the return to x86 probably had more to do with it
[04:16:23] <wesolows> it's all about economics
[04:16:39] <pg_user> wesolows: no one would use closed solaris on x86
[04:17:10] <pg_user> I began thinking of switching when opensolaris was announced.
[04:17:21] <pg_user> And Andy's return just made it even sweeter
[04:17:51] <pg_user> in high school, during the .com boom, us nerds used to drool over the sun stuff
[04:18:05] <nrubsig> pg_user: did andy tucker return to Sun ?
[04:18:19] <pg_user> nrubsig: andy b.
[04:18:30] <nrubsig> "b."=?
[04:18:53] <pg_user> Andy Bechtolsheim
[04:19:38] <pg_user> i even heard that google was using solaris
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[04:20:05] * Tpenta fnishes uploading the first song he's worked from writing to recording and post production, to myspace
[04:20:11] <gdamore> time to run... gotta meeting... back late tonight.
[04:20:12] <boyd> pg_user: Solaris x86 was basically near death, it was to some extent the efforts of some community members that saved it
[04:20:22] <boyd> Tpenta: well done..
[04:20:24] <pg_user> i know. like Richard teer
[04:20:32] <wesolows> pg_user: not true at all.  Nobody cared about the OS, they wanted cheap fast hardware.  GNU/Linux happened to be the OS that was around at the time that seemed to have momentum.  If we'd positioned ourselves there at that time, GNU/Linux would be a niche player today.
[04:20:43] <Tpenta> if anyone wants a listen, http://myspace.com/alanhargreaves
[04:20:59] <wesolows> OpenSolaris just makes it more attractive, especially since we missed that boat the first time.
[04:21:04] <pg_user> wesolows: we did.  but we couldn't afford it!
[04:21:14] <pg_user> we had to use linux because that's all we had
[04:21:17] <boyd> Tpenta: full version or the toher one recommended
[04:21:22] <wesolows> yep
[04:21:34] <Tpenta> there should only be one up there, the full versino is what I uploaded
[04:21:45] <pg_user> and when we rose up in the ranks, we just knew linux and not solaris
[04:22:04] <wesolows> like I said, we missed the boat, because we were selling for SPARC and ignoring x86
[04:22:11] <boyd> Tpenta: Ah, I see, the other is text only
[04:22:11] <wesolows> no one could afford SPARC, and it's slow.
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[04:23:17] <pg_user> when the boss asks us, we just tell him to buy what we know
[04:27:43] <jbk> wish i could do that :)
[04:28:04] <pg_user> then work for a medium sized company
[04:28:09] <boyd> Tpenta: hmm I can't see a link, actually
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[04:28:27] <pg_user> boyd: i think you need to be on windows
[04:28:30] <Tpenta> it has a built in flash player
[04:28:43] <pg_user> it actually pretty good
[04:28:52] <pg_user> good guitar playing
[04:29:10] * boyd shrugs... nothing here on Safari. There is a big white space where it could be.
[04:29:22] <Tpenta> recording notes in the blog, this is the first bit of playing i've done with my new digitech rp150
[04:30:36] <pg_user> well i'm off to read jonathan's blog.
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[04:37:34] <brendang> Woah - Alan can play pretty good! :)
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[04:38:21] <Tpenta> click on some of teh folks I have as my friends, Fiona is still in year 11 !
[04:39:00] <nrubsig> Tpenta: remeber http://svn.genunix.org/repos/on/branches/ksh93/gisburn/scripts/audiotest.ksh ? If I can get the notes I can add this to the ksh93 demo stuff... :-)
[04:39:32] <Tpenta> ROFL
[04:39:51] <nrubsig> Tpenta: ?!
[04:40:02] <Tpenta> it's kinda long for a test audio
[04:41:27] 
[04:41:54] <Tpenta> mate what you see there is the the only definition ofthe music.
[04:42:01] <Tpenta> i have not written any sheet to it yet
[04:42:18] <nrubsig> ?!
[04:42:57] <Tpenta> backtrack time. What exactly are you asking me Roland?
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[04:43:38] <nrubsig> Tpenta: erm, I want notes and make a demo from it.
[04:43:49] 
[04:44:25] <nrubsig> Tpenta: e.g. C3 D3 E3 F3 G3 G3 A3 A3 A3 A3 G3 p F3 F3 F3 F3 E3 E3 p D3 D3 D3 D3 C3
[04:44:37] <nrubsig> that's the "input"
[04:44:43] <nrubsig> the output cannot be pasted here.
[04:44:52] <Tempt> re-inventing midi today?
[04:44:55] <Tpenta> the point I'm making is that I don't have that input for the song i just recorded
[04:45:04] <nrubsig> Tempt: mhhh... midi demo...
[04:45:23] <nrubsig> Tpenta: wait... you're singing ?
[04:46:01] <Tpenta> yes and playing guitar (twice), multitrack recording using audacity
[04:46:06] <nrubsig> ALERT!!ALERT!! RED ALERT!! Tpenta is singing! All rats leave the danger zone!! ALERT!!ALERT!! Tpenta is singing! Hide in the atom bunkers!
[04:46:34] <nrubsig> (okok, bad joke)
[04:46:37] * nrubsig hides
[04:47:06] * nrubsig watches Tpenta sulking
[04:49:33] * boyd is sulking 'cos he can't hear the joy
[04:49:38] <boyd> (or the song)
[04:49:43] <Tempt> hah
[04:50:06] <Tempt> I'm more amused by the fact that ALAN HAS A MYSPACE!
[04:50:13] * nrubsig really starts to fear Tpenta is going to rip him into little pieces
[04:50:39] <boyd> Tempt: I think he must be younger than I thought :)
[04:52:17] <Tpenta> only did it as a lot of local bands use it
[04:56:01] <nrubsig> Tpenta: ---> /msg
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[04:56:51] <boyd> Tpenta: fair enough.. only poking fun
[04:57:43] * boyd wanders off to Real Life.
[04:58:27] * nrubsig makes new black tea
[04:58:54] <nrubsig> today new shell bug: don't send multibyte invalid char to output (invalid UTF-8 char which bombs out iconv)
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[05:10:17] <bda> http://thismight.be/offensive/uploads/2007/08/24/image/but%20not%20many...jpg
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[05:17:42] <pg_user> Something I read on Jonathan's blog:
[05:18:03] <pg_user> Option 1: There's a terrible problem at the highest levels in Sun if this goes through. I won't add why, there's a raft of very intelligent posts already.
[05:18:11] <pg_user> Option 2: Jonathan's been very clever; the mktg dept has just exposed themselves as utter morons, and now he has the ammo to replace the whole lot :)
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[05:22:01] <jbk> :)
[05:22:24] <jbk> it is a bit frustrating
[05:22:53] <jbk> for any type of server stuff, i really believe solaris is quite often the best technical choice
[05:23:30] <jbk> but being below pond scum in the scheme of importance at companies i've worked for, i can't explain that to the people that make the big decisions on purchasing
[05:23:53] <jbk> and it seems like their sales/marketing guys don't do a good job of explaining that either
[05:24:24] <jbk> like where i'm at now, they're rolling all this stuff out on Redhat (with full support, etc.) because it's 'cheaper'
[05:24:58] <Gman> perceived cheaper, or cheaper cheaper?
[05:25:10] <jbk> because they don't know about solaris x86
[05:25:23] <jbk> or that solaris support is cheaper than redhat support
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[05:26:35] <jbk> of course, amusingly, there's concern over performance of this app (which is largely in python) and I keep thinking 'if only we had dtrace'
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[05:27:17] <Gman> jbk, you still could as a test/developer bed
[05:27:44] <jbk> if we had spare machines
[05:27:58] <jbk> i've seriously considered that as a fallback if we run into serious problems
[05:28:09] <jbk> though i'm not sure how i could sell it
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[05:28:44] <jbk> though perhaps sending a link to bryan cantrill's google presentation might help... :)
[05:28:54] <Gman> nod
[05:29:26] <Gman> i would have thought it would be relatively easy to order a cheap white box
[05:29:39] <jbk> well this is a big company
[05:32:07] <jbk> i think they'd frown on running a server from one's cube :)
[05:32:13] <jbk> they've fired people over installing firefox
[05:32:38] <Gman> ugh :)
[05:32:57] <sponix> Gman: don't think I'll be dropping an app there anytime soon
[05:33:06] <jbk> yeah, i find all this stuff out _after_ i accepted their offer :)
[05:33:23] <sponix> jbk: Yeah, Military hates the power of ff also
[05:33:52] <sponix> extensions being able to do IRC/FTP/Torrent and so forth is their issue with it
[05:34:27] <sponix> I still find it odd how they can preach security and MS products out of the same mouth
[05:35:02] <jbk> yeah, i can't even access gmail at work
[05:35:25] <sponix> jbk: sounds like you are on more of a lockdown than I am... where on earth do you work ?
[05:35:39] <tsp> jbk: just run an ssh socks proxy
[05:36:05] <jbk> financial institution
[05:37:28] <jbk> the gmail i understand -- best effort type thing for preventing any sort of backdoor communication
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[05:45:32] <jbk> well i'm glad i sent that message
[05:46:02] <jbk> it sounds like some group in sun is already working on some ldap/kerberos integration
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[05:50:01] <jbk> i need to check out some of the sparks stuff though
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[05:50:12] <jbk> maybe next month after i get a new system
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[05:59:39] <steleman> why does anyone need to work on ldap/kerberos integration when it is already in OpenLDAP and MIT Kerberos
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[06:01:19] <jbk> does mit kerberos support using ldap as a datastore?
[06:01:45] <jbk> and has openldap ever fixed the issue of not replicating object permissions with the object?
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[06:02:51] <steleman> yes mit kerberos supports using ldap as datastore
[06:03:22] <steleman> and no i dont know yet if openldap has fixed the object permission replication bug but i will soon find out
[06:04:14] <jbk> also looks like it doesn't support MMR
[06:05:49] <steleman> who supports MMR ?
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[06:06:13] <jbk> sun ds, opends, redhat ds (I think)
[06:06:24] <jbk> though may be wrong on the last one
[06:07:08] <steleman> and why does openldap need to support MMR when the exact same factiliy can be done with database replication
[06:08:00] <jbk> and what database would you use to do replication?
[06:08:11] <steleman> postgresql for example
[06:08:35] <jbk> but isn't that still only have one node where writes can originate?
[06:09:14] <jbk> also, now you're talking a much more complex setup
[06:09:17] <steleman> how can you implement ldap mmr with multi-master ldap nodes ?
[06:09:49] <steleman> you still run into the same problem only you moved it into ldap instead of handling it in a database
[06:09:50] <jbk> sun ds does it today relatively easily (with a few minor annoyances)
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[06:11:50] <steleman> too bad sun ds hasn't gained more acceptance ;-)
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[06:12:10] <jbk> actually, it's used quite a bit in businesses
[06:12:21] <jbk> on some _very_ large deployments
[06:12:24] <steleman> that's not what i've seen
[06:12:34] <steleman> at some _very_ large deployments
[06:12:49] <jbk> and they're using openldap?
[06:12:57] <steleman> yup
[06:13:10] <Tempt> That's a bit worrying.
[06:13:27] <steleman> my previous employer before Sun used OpenAFS <-> MIT Kerberos <-> OpenLDAP <-> Cyrus SASL
[06:13:30] <Tempt> I've seen OpenLDAP go pear-shaped in some truly amazing ways
[06:13:51] <Tempt> Urgh, Cyrus SASL. What a crapheap.
[06:13:53] <steleman> and they had single sign-on working
[06:13:58] <steleman> perfectly
[06:14:06] <steleman> even across AS/400
[06:14:07] <Tempt> Which university?
[06:14:20] <steleman> that University would be Morgan Stanley ;-)
[06:14:42] <jbk> *shrug* i've seen multiple deployments of sun ds with 10+mil users
[06:14:45] <Tempt> Just sounds like the sort of thing usually confined to academic environments.
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[06:14:52] <jbk> (actual users, not just objects)
[06:14:59] <Tempt> Sun's DS is pretty well known and commonly used.
[06:15:21] <steleman> jbk: where ?
[06:15:27] <jbk> telecoms
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[06:15:34] <Tempt> Sun Netscape iPlanet JAVA java enterprise ONE directory server
[06:15:58] <steleman> jbk: i hope you're not going to use AT&T Wireless as an example of success :-)
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[06:16:04] <jbk> nope :)
[06:16:34] <Tempt> At a guess, I'd say SunDS is the second most popular LDAP implementation
[06:16:46] <steleman> yeah AT&T Wireless is iPlanet
[06:17:20] <Tempt> We all know the most popular LDAP server...
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[06:18:58] <jbk> though regardless, to me at least, having delegated credentials are just a bonus.. what still needs to be addresses is access control
[06:19:21] <Tempt> http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS2399097703.html
[06:19:28] <Tempt> 1W x86.
[06:19:39] <jbk> i've not yet seen a unix-based solution that scales well
[06:19:41] <Tempt> I can see some nice applications for that.
[06:21:37] <jbk> i'm leaning towards something involving (hate to use the term since it's somewhat overloaded) the notion of roles (not to be confused with Solaris RBAC roles or the legacy netscape roles)
[06:22:12] <jbk> where they are assigned to users and servers, and if the intersection of the two is not empty, that provides access
[06:22:49] <steleman> jbk: it's already been done
[06:22:54] <jbk> but related to that, i also want to something with both RBAC roles and groups -- where users can be granted access to them based on the server they're on
[06:22:56] <steleman> that's what kerberos does
[06:22:57] <jbk> steleman: where?
[06:23:05] <jbk> how?
[06:23:10] <jbk> and how does it scale to 1000+ systems?
[06:23:11] <steleman> uhm tokens ?
[06:23:22] <jbk> how does it control access to a server?
[06:23:25] <jbk> how to you manage the policy?
[06:23:32] <steleman> jbk: i think you need to familiarize yourself with kerberos
[06:23:51] <jbk> i've not found _any_ docs that talk at all about that
[06:24:06] <steleman> jbk: like i said: i think you need to familiarize yourself with kerberos
[06:24:25] <jbk> ive looked at sun's docs, as well as the MIT stuff, I see nothing that addresses the issue
[06:24:28] <steleman> this is *exactly* what kerberos does: access control
[06:24:40] <steleman> jbk: ok.
[06:24:54] <jbk> everything i've read suggests it's more authentication, not authorization
[06:25:09] <jbk> am I 'X', not 'can i access Y'
[06:25:14] <steleman> jbk: wrong.
[06:25:27] <steleman> jbk: tokens control access as well
[06:25:42] <Red_Cloud> I need help creating a daemon script for solaris.  I would like to have tor start on boot but have nowhere the skills to get that done.  Help?
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[06:25:58] <steleman> jbk: and that's one of the two major bonuses of AFS
[06:25:58] <jbk> if you have any pointers to docs, I'd really like to read up on that.. i've not found it
[06:26:26] <steleman> if you want object based access control you need a filesystem which enforces that
[06:26:34] <steleman> afs does
[06:26:39] <steleman> via kerberos
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[06:27:35] <jbk> i'm more concerned with access to systems and privileged accounts
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[06:28:25] <steleman> jbk: ok. kerberos allows you to set permissions on a user id which say "you can access server x, server y and server q in domain X but not server z and o"
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[06:28:39] <jame1> HI
[06:28:48] <jame1> I need help with sound please
[06:28:59] <jbk> not to say that's unimportant, just for what i'm looking to solve, i want single sign on, but fine-grained (or really policy-based) control to be able to login to servers, as well as su to application accounts
[06:29:03] <steleman> afs allows you to set permissions on filesystem objects "you can access directory path a and directory path b but not x within b"
[06:29:20] <jame1> I have installed oss and the volume control shows the card but I don`t hear any sound
[06:29:23] <jame1> please help
[06:31:30] <LeftWing> NFS allows kerberos-authenticated access, too...
[06:31:43] <steleman> LeftWing: yes
[06:31:54] <steleman> LeftWing: but NFS on linux sucked :-)
[06:32:03] <LeftWing> Indeed.
[06:32:05] * steleman did *not* really say that
[06:32:08] <steleman> :-)
[06:32:11] <steleman> LeftWing: hence, AFS
[06:32:16] <jame1> any idea how to install gcc ?
[06:32:39] * LeftWing is looking forward to pam_list.
[06:32:40] <jbk> why not use /usr/sfw/bin/gcc ?
[06:33:08] <jame1> what about make ?
[06:33:19] <LeftWing>  /usr/sfw/bin/gmake
[06:33:32] <jbk> or /usr/ccs/bin/make for the solaris make
[06:33:43] <jame1> I want to install ext support but it says gcc and make not sound
[06:33:45] <jbk> (though that i believe was moved to /usr/bin recently)
[06:33:48] <jame1> found*
[06:34:00] <jame1> its in /sfw/bin
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[06:34:52] <jame1> jbk: can you help me getting sound working ?
[06:38:50] <jbk> not sure -- it worked for me w/ no setup
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[06:43:56] <coraline> sndconfig
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[07:04:09] <sponix> I ended up downloading and installing OSS.. Sound comes out my speakers all the time, even with headphones hooked up, but other than that it works good
[07:07:53] <e^ipi> just don't watch porn when people are at home, and you should be okay
[07:09:49] <e^ipi> hmmm...
[07:10:18] <e^ipi> If I buy stock in the company I work for, does that qualify me as bourgeoisie or proletariat?
[07:11:23] <jbk> does it matter?
[07:12:55] <Tempt> e^ipi: You might have to hand your communist party membership card in.
[07:13:40] <jbk> e^ipi: btw, have you done any work on making the i18n stuff compile with studio 11?
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[07:16:04] <e^ipi> jbk: no, i've mostly just been worrying about getting as much stuff crossed off as possible
[07:16:22] <e^ipi> I s'pose now that I'm not time constrained I can do that though
[07:16:37] <jbk> i was wondering if there was a preferred approach
[07:16:53] <jbk> like one header file that does stuff like #define __restrict restrict
[07:16:54] <jbk> etc.
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[07:17:22] <e^ipi> is there a generally preferred approach?
[07:17:28] <jbk> i don't know
[07:17:35] <e^ipi> because I was just going to go through and change all those instances
[07:18:01] <e^ipi> but letting the preproccessor do it might be a good idea
[07:18:39] <e^ipi> Tempt: feh, the CPCanada is just a bunch of stalinists anyways
[07:18:47] <jbk> well i guess it's a question of how much benefit it delivers
[07:18:54] <jbk> which I really don't know
[07:20:17] <e^ipi> the current code with __restrict et al. is only the way it is mostly because a lot of it was lifted from xBSD, where they only need to worry about one compiler
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[07:20:42] <e^ipi> one particularly non-compliant compiler, i might add
[07:20:58] <jbk> well i think studio 12 might support it
[07:21:05] <jbk> but no idea if/when ON is moving to that
[07:21:10] <e^ipi> ( did you know Solaris has a C++ abi standard? neither did I, because GNU chooses not to pay attention to it )
[07:21:44] <Tempt> Would anyone here be interested in new builds of enlightenment?
[07:21:59] <jbk> Tempt: perhaps in a month or so..
[07:22:10] <Tempt> in a month or so?
[07:22:15] <Tempt> It'd probably take a month to get it to build, so ...
[07:22:40] <jbk> well actually i suppose it's probably not going to require any 3d support
[07:22:47] <Tempt> Correct.
[07:22:59] <Tempt> benr's packages are very old, and very crufty.
[07:23:02] <jbk> which i suppose is really what's mostly currently missing under solaris (ati radeon x700)
[07:23:10] <jbk> for my laptop
[07:29:25] <jbk> though i need to send it in soon to get the left touchpad button + dvd drive fixed
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[09:27:30] <WickedWicky> morning people
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[09:30:11] <Tempt> WickedWicky: Afternoon!
[09:30:21] <WickedWicky> Heya Tempt! How was your evening out?
[09:30:22] <jamesd> its 2 am ...
[09:30:28] <WickedWicky> did you get pissed?
[09:30:58] <Tempt> Had a few beers, yes.
[09:31:05] <WickedWicky> haha, good stuff
[09:31:07] <Tempt> Nothing too extreme.
[09:31:17] <Tempt> Home by 2am
[09:31:29] <WickedWicky> I had a quiet evening, today is my step-mother's birthday and I am gonna get harrassed by my cousins today, better be sharpish
[09:32:06] <trygvis> bang them in the head with a solaris book
[09:32:12] <trygvis> that'll teach them!
[09:32:15] <Tempt> Yeah, bang 'em in the head.
[09:32:16] <WickedWicky> you never know what them buggers break in your house/room
[09:32:20] <Tempt> With an e450
[09:32:22] <WickedWicky> dude
[09:32:27] <trygvis> even better!
[09:32:30] <WickedWicky> they're 6 and 7
[09:32:33] <WickedWicky> oh
[09:32:34] <Tempt> oh
[09:32:37] <WickedWicky> bang as in slaming
[09:32:41] <WickedWicky> I hope.
[09:32:46] <Tempt> then bang 'em in the head with a sun blade 1000
[09:32:51] <Tempt> no need for the full e450
[09:32:58] <WickedWicky> naw, fragile heads still
[09:33:09] <Tempt> all the squishier
[09:33:23] <WickedWicky> as long as they don't touch pebbles there is a chance they'll make it trough the day
[09:33:33] <WickedWicky> nah honestly, they rule
[09:33:48] <WickedWicky> they're just more hyperactive than I am
[09:42:59] <WickedWicky> I'll prolly end up being dragged into watching gummybears
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[10:07:36] <bda> http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/g/a/2007/08/23/violetblue.DTL
[10:07:37] <bda> ha
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[10:11:46] <moazamraja> i know a chic who is going to burning man...
[10:11:49] <moazamraja> sounds similar...
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[10:31:56] <moazamraja> hmm, trying to change the hostname in b70 and it doesn't seem to stick after a reboot
[10:33:41] <moazamraja> wtf...
[10:33:48] <moazamraja> . /etc/hostname.ni0 is right...
[10:33:51] <moazamraja> . /etc/hosts is right
[10:34:00] <moazamraja> 'hostname newhostname'
[10:34:07] <moazamraja> but after reboot...back to old hostname :/
[10:34:36] <bda> /etc/nodename?
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[10:40:26] <moazamraja> trying that...rebooting
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[10:41:32] <moazamraja> bda: thx :P
[10:41:35] <moazamraja> can't believe i missed it
[10:41:44] <bda> np
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[10:48:56] <Fish> hello
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[11:23:17] <Tempt> moo
[11:45:05] <coffman> hey there
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[11:46:22] <coffman> /var/svc/log/network-physical:nwam.log tells me (zenity:1607): Gtk-WARNING **: cannot open display:
[11:46:37] <coffman> and the nwam display does not get open
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[14:14:05] <Tempt> hmm
[14:14:08] <Tempt> http://cgi.ebay.com.au/Sun-ENTERPRISE-220R-ULTRA-SPARC-II-Processor-Server_W0QQitemZ230164867511QQihZ013QQcategoryZ11216QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
[14:14:21] <Tempt> $19 UltraSPARC machine, could be a win for someone.
[14:15:12] <trygvis> hm
[14:16:15] <kjetilho> the 220R is a nice server
[14:17:37] <Tempt> Bit old, but $19 is a bargain. Dual CPU, 2Gb of RAM.
[14:18:43] <kjetilho> yes, if you live close to Regents Park
[14:21:39] <Tempt> check out the PCI slots on this one: http://cgi.ebay.com.au/IBM-RS6000-F80-2-Way-450Mhz-4MB-1024Mb-SCSI-144GB_W0QQitemZ270157773280QQihZ017QQcategoryZ11214QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
[14:22:33] <WickedWicky> whatcha gonna d with that?
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[14:26:18] <Tempt> nothing, I don't need aging POWER machines. I need fresh new POWER machines!
[14:27:01] <WickedWicky> POWER6!
[14:27:15] <WickedWicky> and brb too, Vista needs reboot power
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[14:28:04] <Tempt> haha
[14:34:23] <Ljuvefreya> "Vista, now for Sparc" ;)
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[14:39:43] <_setuid_H> tar: ././@LongLink: typeflag 'L' not recognized, converting to regular file
[14:40:03] <_setuid_H> this is very often problem when utarring files
[14:40:15] <trygvis> use gtar
[14:40:18] <_setuid_H> ok
[14:40:20] <delewis> _setuid_H: you're using tar files that were generated by GNU tar, and thus generate standards non-compliant tar files.
[14:40:21] <kjetilho> use star
[14:40:25] <_setuid_H> ok
[14:40:26] <_setuid_H> thanks
[14:40:38] <_setuid_H> it's true its gcc-4.2.1
[14:40:39] <_setuid_H> :-)
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[14:43:09] <Tempt> bloody gnuisms
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[14:48:39] <steleman> setenv DEFAULT_ARCHIVE_FORMAT "USTAR"
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[15:13:12] <Gekkko[PDA]> damn GNU
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[15:13:22] <Gekkko[PDA]> damn them to hell.l
[15:15:57] <Tempt> hmm?
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[15:46:38] <Stric> offtopic: anyone know polish? I'd like a sentence translated from pl
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[16:28:41] <WickedWicky> lol, how to make yourself an expensive desk
[16:28:42] <WickedWicky> http://tecmonster.com.br/uma-mesa-de-trabalho-de-us-80000000
[16:28:54] <WickedWicky> all itanium chips
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[16:32:36] <tsoome> thats good use of high tech
[16:33:44] <myrkraverk> can I allow access to files in the global zone?
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[16:35:51] <jamesd> nfs can be helpful, or you can inherit the directories, but those are read-only
[16:36:35] <myrkraverk> hmm, ok
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[16:51:54] <darius_> Is there a virtualization option for Solaris on sparc that support hardware virtualization / the ability to run independent kernels?
[16:54:41] <oxygene> hardware virtualisation on sparc is handled in the sun4v firmware, I think
[16:55:30] <darius_> is that support for virtualization or just resource partitioning?
[16:56:12] <Auralis> the sun4v has a hardware hypervisor, so its virtualisation
[16:59:17] <darius_> so does Solaris natively have the ability to manage virtualized environments or should I be looking for some software package?
[17:00:18] <darius_> actually, what exactly is sun4v?  I'm working with sparc-iii systems
[17:00:47] <Auralis> niagara
[17:01:12] <darius_> oh bleh
[17:01:13] <darius_> :)
[17:01:25] <darius_> are there any virtualization options for sparc3?
[17:01:36] <delewis> you mean UltraSPARC-III.
[17:01:42] <darius_> yes, sorry
[17:01:56] <Auralis> none that are usefull
[17:02:06] <darius_> k
[17:02:15] <delewis> and no, there aren no hardware virtualization options for UltraSPARC-III, unless you've got a system that supports domains.
[17:02:52] <darius_> So Zones (non kernel independant instances) are the only option on V440s?
[17:02:57] <delewis> yes.
[17:03:07] <darius_> ok, good to know
[17:03:12] <darius_> appreciate it
[17:03:31] <oxygene> of course, you could help fix qemu's sparc system emulation and use that ;-)
[17:03:43] <darius_> I'll get right on that :)
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[17:29:22] <jafari> what is sxce 70?
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[17:54:23] <Tempt> :::::::::::::::::::::
[17:54:30] <Tempt> oops.
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[18:12:11] <Trisk[laptop]> jafari: current release of Solaris Express
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[20:37:00] <nachox> both SXDE and SXCE still have the text based install option inspite of caiman's integration right?
[20:37:14] <richlowe> dwarf caiman, and yes.
[20:38:22] <Triskelios> well, to be exact, the "SXDE" option is what gets you dwarf caiman, and everything else uses the normal installers...
[20:38:41] <richlowe> Yeah, SX:DE is so confusing as terminology, I don't think it's worth even trying to make it work out.
[20:38:58] <richlowe> "The installer used when you use the SX:DE boot option is just a different, crippled, installer"
[20:39:07] <richlowe> the SX:CE snv_70 media has both new and old installers.
[20:39:28] <richlowe> the snv_70 SXDE media isn't around yet, and won't be for quite a while, so who knows?
[20:39:34] <nachox> hopefully indiana will finish all these SXDE and CE
[20:40:01] * mstevens has two SXDE questions. a) how can i install the studio stuff when I've installed CE, and b) what are my options for upgrading my b64 install to the latest and greatest?
[20:40:04] <Triskelios> nah Indiana is not supposed to replace Solaris proper
[20:40:14] <richlowe> Triskelios: that depends on whom you talk to.
[20:40:25] <Triskelios> mstevens: the Studio install script is on the DVD
[20:40:50] <richlowe> I think the CE installer should still let you upgrade.
[20:40:57] <richlowe> I have no idea if the DE installer will.
[20:40:59] <Triskelios> yup
[20:41:02] <richlowe> and yeah, you can install studio after the fact.
[20:41:29] <Triskelios> the DE installer complains about the metacluster being wrong for me, but it's done that since pre-caiman
[20:41:43] <richlowe> Triskelios: the indiana folks seem to want to be everything to everyone, by the way, so that does seem to be one of their long term goals.  They don't seem to have done much of anything about actually making it possible, or practical, however.
[20:41:48] <richlowe> (at least not yet)
[20:41:49] <Triskelios> CE always works since it just goes with my pre-existing package cluster
[20:42:07] <mstevens> I couldn't use the DE installer due to lack of RAM
[20:43:00] <oxygene> richlowe: they probably wait for other groups to make it possible for them
[20:43:11] <oxygene> indiana belongs to marketing, after all
[20:43:18] <richlowe> oxygene: exactly.
[20:43:30] <richlowe> oxygene: indiana is a mktg name for N other projects (for variable N)
[20:43:40] <richlowe> so anytime you think "indiana will fix this"... :)
[20:43:41] <Triskelios> the good thing is that they're raising a lot of the right issues for other projects to pursue
[20:44:12] <oxygene> Triskelios: with N shots, you get to hit some targets (for large enough N)
[20:45:11] <nachox> the law of the big numbers :P
[20:45:18] <oxygene> hmm.. now I only have to figure out how to encode mercurial tags in monotone, then I'm ready for a final conversion pass of onnv-gate
[20:45:56] <Triskelios> how does monotone compare to other SCMs?
[20:46:31] <oxygene> Triskelios: conservative approach to keeping your data alive.. apart from that, mercurial and git are rather similar (being somewhat modelled after it)
[20:48:40] <oxygene> being conservative also makes it a bit slower than the others, but I have a test conversion going with about 40-50% of the onnv-gate revisions, and I found that apart from checkout, it's quite comparable in speed for large trees (such as onnv, with its 35000 files)
[20:49:29] <oxygene> ermm.. make that pull, not checkout
[20:49:33] <nachox> hehe, dev is annoyed with nv_70's ram requirements. according to him even the text based install require 750mb of tam now
[20:49:38] <oxygene> checkout is actually quite similar, too
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[20:50:56] <richlowe> it also has a command line that really annoyed me.
[20:50:59] <richlowe> unless that changed. :)
[20:52:00] * mstevens will have to order some more RAM
[20:52:05] <oxygene> richlowe: what specifically?
[20:52:18] <richlowe> oxygene: passing the DB explicitly drove me crazy, when I tried it.
[20:52:46] <oxygene> richlowe: mtn -d $path? you only need that when outside a working copy
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[21:24:19] <g4lt-sb100> YAY, my craptop has OSS :D
[21:26:08] <g4lt-sb100> the youtubing shall now commence ;P
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[21:51:15] * mstevens has, in fact, ordered some more RAM, things should be much faster now
[21:54:52] <hali> mstevens: ram is good
[21:55:32] <Triskelios> g4lt-sb100: the OSS sun audio driver lags sometimes...
[21:55:45] <Triskelios> sun audio emulation driver, rather
[21:56:08] <Triskelios> or are you using the OSS plugin for Flash?
[21:56:18] * mstevens waves to hali
[21:56:23] <mstevens> hali: it works!"
[21:56:33] <hali> mstevens: of course
[21:57:06] <mstevens> hali: I did have a few problems
[21:57:43] <mstevens> the autopartitioner is broken
[21:58:11] <hali> broken? it's just very unintelligent usually
[21:58:25] <richlowe> I'm guessing Caiman has a different one.
[21:58:33] <richlowe> which is, perhaps, even less intelligent.
[21:58:41] <mstevens> hali: creating a root partition that goes boom because it's full on the first boot counts as broken for me
[21:59:03] <hali> mstevens: unintelligent
[21:59:08] <richlowe> broken.
[21:59:27] <hali> slightly broken
[21:59:34] <richlowe> untintelligent would be giving you a filesystem layout that's insensible but works.
[21:59:39] <richlowe> one that doesn't work is just plain broken.
[21:59:46] <mstevens> hali; and I couldn't do the developer install due to lack of memory
[22:00:15] <mstevens> (thus, ordering some more memory)
[22:00:18] <hali> mstevens: you can download sun studio 12 stand-alone as well, i may even have it in /export/apps for you
[22:00:43] <WickedWicky> my bet is they tried to write the installer in GTK2 but didnt get it flashy enough, so they used the gnome desktop
[22:01:08] <mstevens> hali: so how do I upgrade to the latest and most broken^W^Wgreatest
[22:01:19] <hali> mstevens: BFU
[22:01:23] <tsp> the snv_70 text install needs 750mb ram? I installed 69 on my 256mb sparc
[22:01:40] <WickedWicky> the most latest and greatest would be to compile the tip branch from the mercurial repository
[22:01:52] <mstevens> tsp: this was _64, developer graphical install
[22:02:00] <tsp> ah
[22:02:06] <richlowe> tsp: No, the SXDE install needs that much.
[22:02:08] <hali> mstevens: not that i can actually find any bfu images atm
[22:02:13] <tsp> wow, lots of ram
[22:02:21] <richlowe> hali: dlc.sun.com/osol/on/downloads should have archives
[22:02:33] <Triskelios> it was 512MB not too long ago...
[22:02:36] <tsp> sometimes my current box runs slower than my 386 w/ 8mb
[22:02:38] <Triskelios> wonder what happened
[22:02:41] <hali> richlowe: sweet, thanks
[22:02:52] <tsp> when I still had it
[22:06:32] <WickedWicky> isn't onnv72 out already btw?
[22:06:39] <mstevens> hali: haven't played seriously yet, but it looks almost workable for work
[22:07:00] <richlowe> WickedWicky: the bulid closed last tuesday, delivers to RE this tuesday.
[22:07:03] <richlowe> so not quite, no.
[22:07:08] <richlowe> 'build', rather.
[22:07:18] <hali> mstevens: we have a new client on solaris x86 as well :-)
[22:07:24] <mstevens> hali: it actually comes with a decent shell, which is an utterly shocking improvement
[22:07:49] <richlowe> it comes with several decent shells.
[22:07:53] <richlowe> it just defaults to the awful one :)
[22:08:04] <WickedWicky> ok so.. the topic describes the latest binaries being available, not the latest version available for compile?
[22:08:08] <mstevens> richlowe: I'm used to "well, there's ksh, or ksh"
[22:08:17] <richlowe> mstevens: Oh, that's not bad.
[22:08:23] <richlowe> mstevens: you're missing out on the joys of plain ol' /sbin/sh
[22:08:47] <richlowe> I hope you don't like job control, you'd need /usr/bin/jsh for that (and only that...) :)
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[22:10:13] <mstevens> hali: the only thing I suspect I won't find is an eclipse build, I'm looking now
[22:10:27] <hali> mstevens: there is always netbeans :)
[22:10:36] * mstevens makes vomiting noises
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[22:11:04] <hali> vim file | compile stuff
[22:11:32] <mstevens> hali: I'd much rather do that than use netbeans
[22:12:50] <mstevens> hmm, there's a sparc/solaris build
[22:13:09] <richlowe> I'm still shocked people use eclipse.
[22:13:26] <mstevens> why?
[22:13:44] <hali> most "insert random evil big corp with an application stack here" support eclipse and have their own wonky release of it
[22:13:51] <hali> ibm, oracle, bea bla bal
[22:14:08] <richlowe> hali: Yeah, that's part of the shock.
[22:14:32] <richlowe> "Surely there's some vendor supplied wad of eclipse flavoured stuff you were already using, if you were heading that way..."
[22:14:33] <nachox> borland
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[22:15:07] <mstevens> the big eclipse draw for me is that things like refactoring are way better than any other free tool I've tried
[22:15:12] <WickedWicky> talking about compiling, I am really happy with my new CPU :D compiling onnv-gate went from 8 hours to 4 hours
[22:15:47] <tamr> nice
[22:15:56] <nachox> WickedWicky, what cpu?
[22:16:17] <mstevens> hmm, I think there might be eclipse for x86 solaris, but I can't find it...
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[22:16:52] <WickedWicky> I went from an Athlon XP2400+ to an Athlon M2 4400+
[22:17:01] <WickedWicky> 64 Bit dual core
[22:17:26] <nachox> nice
[22:17:27] <tamr> mstevens: http://forums.hotjoe.com/posts/list/198.page  ?
[22:17:29] <WickedWicky> ya
[22:18:01] <mstevens> tamr: better than nothing, but old
[22:18:50] <tamr> hm
[22:19:26] * WickedWicky is listening to Spinal Tap - Stonehenge
[22:20:17] * cajetanus i listening to Bach - Cello Suite 1 - allegro
[22:20:49] * tamr is listening to Curious George and the washing machine.
[22:21:06] <tamr> ftw.
[22:21:22] * mbalmer is listening to the system beeper
[22:21:24] * hali is listening to the sound if not raining for the first time in ages
[22:21:45] <tamr> I can't remember the last time it rained here
[22:21:48] <tamr> Maybe July
[22:22:03] <hali> tamr: im in london, it tends to rain... well... a lot
[22:22:14] <tamr> heh, ok fair enough  :)
[22:22:21] <WickedWicky> London is cool
[22:22:33] <tamr> I'm in California.  They haven't passed legislature for rain yet.
[22:22:42] <WickedWicky> especialy when you're waiting for the 266 towards Hammersmith for 35 minutes and then suddenly there come 3 266's in a row
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[22:22:50] * WickedWicky used to live in Acton
[22:23:04] <moazamraja> i waaaant rain :(
[22:23:07] <moazamraja> *sob*
[22:23:10] <moazamraja> CA sux for rain
[22:23:11] <hali> WickedWicky: buss congestion is easy wave theory :)
[22:23:29] <moazamraja> lived in Miami all my life, now I'm going through rain withdrawal
[22:23:41] <tamr> totally sux for rain.  I've actually notice the reservoirs are kinda low these days
[22:23:50] <WickedWicky> then there is your daily bomb alarm which closes down the picadily line
[22:24:11] <WickedWicky> and cabs that refuse to take you from turnmills (club) to home cause they say the drive is too far
[22:24:20] <WickedWicky> a theory I never understood, I thought cabs wanted to make money
[22:24:48] <tamr> (I'm not laughing at that....)  I have to visit London one day, for all this
[22:25:03] <mstevens> ooh, it's a bit old but it's in blastwave
[22:25:11] <tamr> I live in an extremely quiet suburbia.
[22:25:43] <hali> quiet on the surface, we've all seen the tv show "weeds" by now :-)
[22:25:58] <WickedWicky> I dont live in London for quite some time now. I moved to Curitiba and Rio for a year, then went back to holland
[22:26:31] <WickedWicky> sometimes I miss London
[22:26:42] <tamr> I went to Nevada once.
[22:26:51] <tamr> I don't travel much...California is nice
[22:27:06] * WickedWicky would love to go to LA/San Diego/Orange county
[22:27:25] <tamr> just San Diego/Orange County...just drive through LA
[22:27:43] <tamr> there's nothing to stop in there for, except a few beaches
[22:27:58] <mstevens> hali: my DSL is fucked again
[22:28:45] <hali> mstevens: fancy support contracts to help
[22:28:48] <hali> s/to/do/
[22:30:52] <mstevens> hali: fault open with BT, hopefully they'll send a minion soon
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[23:56:27] <jafari> hello all, i just had an power outage
[23:56:29] <jafari> and i notice my nis and automount stop working
[23:56:31] <jafari> it was ocnfigured and working before this happen
[23:56:36] <jafari> is there anything i need to do to assure that it works again if this happens again
[23:56:45] <jafari> is there any service i need to turn on
[23:59:08] <jafari> how do i mak ethis start at boot time /usr/lib/netsvc/yp/ypstart





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