[00:00:22] <Triskelios> SYS64738: almost everything in /dev is a symlink to the full device paths in /devices
[00:00:25] <laca> Triskelios: sure, i can review your changes if you want
[00:06:55] <FireflyST> Okay, question
[00:07:31] <FireflyST> My friend and I want to set up a site-to-site VPN between his house and mine, he'd have a linux box on his end and I have a SOlaris box on mine
[00:08:04] <FireflyST> Where do I get started with doing VPN stuff?
[00:08:08] <trygvis> ipsec
[00:08:19] <FireflyST> ipsec?
[00:08:41] <FireflyST> I've heard of it, but have no idea what it does
[00:10:08] <trygvis> IPsec can be used to create Virtual Private Networks (VPN) in either mode, and this is the dominant use
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[00:10:11] <trygvis> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IPsec
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[00:24:38] <jbk> trygvis: there's a file under /var/run
[00:24:44] <jbk> nfs4_domain i think
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[00:38:06] <Triskelios> laca: http://trisk.acm.jhu.edu/sfe-stuff.diff - sorry, don't have time to seperate these
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[01:11:11] <SYS64738> damn sun cluster install doesn't install scinstall
[01:11:17] <SYS64738> I hate this
[01:11:43] <FireflyST> :(
[01:11:48] <FireflyST> SUCK.
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[01:27:26] <SYS64738> is there the way to find a file inside a pkg ?
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[01:30:16] <PerterB> "yes"
[01:30:52] <richlowe> You'll need to be more specific.
[01:31:12] <richlowe> pkgchk -lp <path> maybe what you mean, if you're wanting to know which package a file you have installed comes from.
[01:32:30] <alanc> oh now he's done it
[01:32:40] <alanc> CIFS system attributes support for cpio(1), pax(1), tar(1) [PSARC/2007/459 FastTrack timeout 08/17/2007]
[01:33:18] <alanc> as if taking Monday & Tuesday off wasn't already going to kill my inbox, Don had to throw kindling at Joerg
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[01:33:51] <PerterB> but "tar c@/f archive_file source_file" is kinda catchy!
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[01:35:33] <alanc> kinda catchy in a "this is why Unix will never replace Windows with the general public" sort of way?
[01:35:36] <richlowe> alanc: what, does tar -@ steal a flag of star's?
[01:35:44] <richlowe> ("email to your grandmother" perhaps...)
[01:35:55] <PerterB> alanc: pretty much
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[01:36:11] <richlowe> alanc: the general public wouldn't be using tar directly.
[01:36:30] <richlowe> not that I'm arguing in favour, you understand.
[01:36:31] <alanc> who knows, it just opens another door for "Why does Sun continue to waste time on Solaris tar when star is the only answer?"
[01:36:36] <richlowe> just that there's beter targets for malice.
[01:37:14] <PerterB> alanc: to be really sure, I could follow up asking how this feature interacts with trusted extensions....
[01:38:36] <alanc> oh, and it uses the 1999 tar extensions for extended attributes, instead of the POSIX 2001 standard
[01:38:51] <SYS64738> I hate puffi
[01:38:59] <PerterB> score!
[01:39:02] <richlowe> I can't come up with a star chamber joke that isn't forced.
[01:39:04] <richlowe> so just pretend it's here.
[01:39:32] <PerterB> wait, wasn't joerg complaining those weren't documented?
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[01:46:32] <SYS64738> does someone knows how to remove sun cluster ?
[01:49:34] <Mdx4> SYS64738: remove ?
[01:49:54] <SYS64738> I destroyed something
[01:50:00] <SYS64738> and I would like to reinstall it
[01:50:11] <Mdx4> remove the packages :)
[01:50:13] <Mdx4> pkgrm
[01:50:38] <SYS64738> I've done with scinstall -r
[01:50:39] <Mdx4> or i see it too simple ?
[01:51:08] <SYS64738> but now the installer tells me that it installs but in it doesn't put anything in /usr/cluster
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[01:53:20] <SYS64738> I like to destroy operating system
[01:54:34] <Mdx4> :)
[01:54:43] <Mdx4> look for packages.
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[01:56:56] <SYS64738> Mdx4, is there the way to search a command in which pkg is ?
[01:58:10] <Triskelios> SYS64738: pkgchk -l -P <file>
[01:58:21] <alanc> X changelogs for nv_71 posted: http://opensolaris.org/os/community/x_win/changelogs/changelogs-nv_70/
[01:58:50] <Triskelios> yay RandR 1.2
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[01:59:28] <Mdx4> pkginfo should :)
[02:00:00] <alanc> Triskelios: only partial yay - only drivers with RandR 1.2 in that build are nvidia
[02:00:12] <alanc> intel driver update with RandR 1.2 should be in nv_72 though
[02:00:16] <Triskelios> oh =\
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[02:00:38] <SYS64738> I think I must reinstall solaris
[02:00:44] <Triskelios> I didn't even know nvidia supported RandR 1.2 - they currently use some weird hack
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[02:01:31] <alanc> actually, I'm not sure if the "nvidia" driver does have RandR 1.2, or if it's only in "nv"
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[02:02:23] <SYS64738> I go to bed
[02:02:24] <SYS64738> thanks
[02:02:25] <SYS64738> bye
[02:02:34] <Triskelios> when will the X consolidation ship enough pkgconfig files that we can actually build the drivers ourselves? =P
[02:03:29] <alanc> Triskelios: shipping the Xorg driver SDK is being worked on by someone else in our team - I think they're targeting nv_73 or 74
[02:03:44] <Triskelios> okay
[02:03:47] <alanc> I'll have to ask her
[02:04:22] <Triskelios> sweet, just noticed the libXi bug was fixed in snv_70. thanks
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[02:07:30] <alanc> don't thank me, thank the customer who escalated it so our sustaining team fixed it
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[02:08:09] <alanc> (though getting the public smackdown from the gnome community/totem maintainer over it may have helped too)
[02:08:32] <richlowe> hah.
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[02:57:56] <brendang> boyd: you around?
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[03:00:18] <CIA-17> cth: PSARC 2006/708 ddi-forceload, PSARC 2006/710 scsi_get_device_type_string, PSARC 2007/379 MPXIO/scsi_vhci failover-ops configuration - revisited, 6504975 ddi_modopen should allow open in subdirectory, 6542649 step0: opensource mpxio
[03:00:32] <wesolows> yay!
[03:01:00] <jbk> cool
[03:01:32] * stevel cheers
[03:01:46] <richlowe> stevel: does that mean you're sure it was done properly?
[03:01:58] <stevel> nope - neither kupfer nor i were on the code review
[03:02:27] <richlowe> who was?
[03:02:37] <richlowe> given it was a putback that both opened code and made other changes.
[03:02:40] <richlowe> *cough spit cough*
[03:02:57] <wesolows> I'm not looking a gift horse in the mouth.
[03:03:06] <wesolows> This is goodness.
[03:03:07] <stevel> nobody i recognise
[03:03:11] <richlowe> wesolows: Yes.
[03:03:23] <jbk> hmm configuration revisited?
[03:03:37] <jbk> does that mean no more arcane twiddling with .conf files?
[03:03:47] <jbk> and counting spaces?
[03:04:47] <sommerfeld> actually, 2007/379 pushes even more stuff into .conf files
[03:04:50] <wesolows> gregp reviewed it.  I trust him.
[03:05:13] * stevel just hopes cth built with -O
[03:05:19] <jbk> i don't suppose that's available on os.org?
[03:05:24] <wesolows> that'd be Mr. Price.  I forget his nick.
[03:05:37] <sommerfeld> sec
[03:05:40] <richlowe> stevel: given that it would take a monumental idiot to not do so, let's assume.
[03:06:12] <richlowe> and given when the fwflash screwup happened mjnelson was too scared to back it out, let's hope, too.
[03:06:21] * stevel nods
[03:06:28] <sommerfeld> http://www.opensolaris.org/os/community/arc/caselog/2007/379/
[03:06:28] <richlowe> 'cos I'm sick of yelling at him through a proxy ;)
[03:06:31] <wesolows> scared of what?  worse breakage?
[03:06:38] <sommerfeld> looks like it's all there
[03:06:50] <richlowe> wesolows: who knows.
[03:07:01] <richlowe> wesolows: I can only assume it was fear, or a complete lack of sense.
[03:07:09] <richlowe> given it broke the open build, and the guy who did so was then unresponsive.
[03:07:15] <richlowe> the obvious and correct response was to rip it out and yell.
[03:07:18] <stevel> he went on vacation after putting back
[03:07:32] <stevel> he was responsive via email though
[03:07:33] <wesolows> yeah, that almost never works out well
[03:07:48] <stevel> i forget what we ended up doing
[03:08:38] <stevel> ah, now i remember - we moved it to usr/closed
[03:08:40] <stevel> lame
[03:09:32] <sommerfeld> clearly the mpxio thing could have been done in two stages (refactor in /usr/closed, then push the bits that can be opened to /usr/src)
[03:09:52] <richlowe> stevel: yeah, and now people are filing see comments bugs, because it's "Closed code"
[03:10:01] <richlowe> so fwflash made me livid 3 distinct times.
[03:10:17] <richlowe> sommerfeld: that's how the discussion after the last screwup ended, yes.
[03:10:27] <richlowe> sommerfeld: if you open code, that's the only change you make, etc, etc.
[03:10:30] * wesolows is committing to no longer getting angry about opensolaris
[03:10:31] <richlowe> at least, I think I got agreement on that.
[03:10:55] <wesolows> If we do it right, we do.  Great.  If not, TFB and don't blame me.  I'm tired of caring so much.
[03:10:56] * stevel shrugs
[03:11:05] <stevel> i've got enough things to do without reviewing more code, but sure
[03:12:41] <richlowe> stevel: I don't get how that's related.
[03:12:54] <jbk> hmm better but still ugly
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[03:13:21] <wesolows> jbk: What do you think about enabling multipathing by default to any target/LUN we can see more than once (if mpxio is globally enabled, that is)?
[03:13:38] <wesolows> jbk: In other words, no longer requiring entries for each specific INQUIRY string?
[03:13:58] <stevel> torn between wanting to review such wads to reduce suckness, and not wanting to do more work :-P
[03:13:59] <sommerfeld> wesolows: if we do it without renaming entries in /dev, i'm all for it.
[03:14:15] <richlowe> stevel: the better resolve is to show the existing CRT what to watch for.
[03:14:22] <jbk> well i was specifically referring to fixed-length strings
[03:14:27] <sommerfeld> path names like /dev/dsk/c16t60020F200000585C3AF0DB0D000EA96Dd0s7 must die
[03:14:29] <wesolows> sommerfeld: Yes, I'd hope that's the case.  Otherwise it's pretty hard to do.
[03:14:38] <richlowe> I like it do.
[03:14:47] <richlowe> if there's no down side, the system should be as resilient as it can be, by default.
[03:14:55] <richlowe> (and I'm open to certain downsides, too.)
[03:15:00] <jbk> but, if there's a resonable way to be sure, 'yes, this is merely an alternate path to the disk', that'd be fine with me
[03:15:07] <wesolows> Hmm, I actually like /dev/dsk/<disk uuid>
[03:15:25] <jbk> though hmm..
[03:15:30] <wesolows> It's much much better than the cXtXdX notation, which is basically useless in a multipathing environment.
[03:15:32] <jbk> just thinking about clariions
[03:15:42] <sommerfeld> wesolows: i much prefer something I can correlate to a particular geographic location
[03:15:43] <jbk> although i believe mpxio already has support for them
[03:15:48] <jbk> but for those type of devices
[03:15:59] <wesolows> Of course, I'd also rather move multipathing into ZFS and let someone else manage the namespace problem there.
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[03:16:03] <jbk> i know the storage people get upset when you have lun trespassing
[03:16:20] <sommerfeld> wesolows: because i like doing silly obsessive things like striping raidz groups across multiple controllers
[03:16:21] <richlowe> sommerfeld: I keep wanting a generic tool that (on appropriate platforms) will pin a drive down to its physical slot, etc.
[03:16:28] <richlowe> I think there's one that ships with Thumper (and is thumper specific)
[03:16:29] <wesolows> sommerfeld: What you want, then, is probably SES plus the SAS/FC port address.
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[03:16:33] <richlowe> but surely that info can be exposed in most cases.
[03:16:47] <jbk> on sparc
[03:16:48] <jbk> yes
[03:17:02] <wesolows> richlowe: That's two separate problems; one for disks in the same chassis as the CPU, one for JBODs/arrays.
[03:17:05] <jbk> i was tempted at my old job to write a utility that'd decode a hardware path to a physical location
[03:17:17] <wesolows> jbk: You mean like libtopo?
[03:17:28] <richlowe> wesolows: Sure, and I'm even more clueless in the case of the latter.
[03:17:37] <wesolows> richlowe: The latter is easier. :-)
[03:17:37] <richlowe> wesolows: but it'd still be worthwhile :)
[03:17:45] <jbk> wesolows: not aware of it, or any tools (in s10 at least) that can be used
[03:17:54] <wesolows> The former is basically 100% vendor-specific.  The latter, there are standard ways to do it.
[03:17:55] <sommerfeld> say I have 4 jbods.  raidz group 0 is all the jbod slot 0's.  raidz group 1 is all the jbod slot 1's
[03:18:03] <jbk> i know with 30+ fc connections, 20+ network drops on an e25k
[03:18:07] <postwait> lun trespassing is bad bad bad.
[03:18:08] <wesolows> jbk: Yeah, libtopo is Private.  But you have the source.
[03:18:18] <jbk> keeping track of what c13, c5, c4, etc. went where was sheer hell
[03:18:50] <postwait> if you have two controllers exposing the same lun, you have no guarantee that you wont cause serious performance problem by accessing it via both
[03:19:04] <sommerfeld> what you see on cisco IOS or other switch vendors is much more sensible.  port X on the card in slot Y
[03:19:05] <postwait> (e.g. if it doesn't have cache coherency across controllers)
[03:19:24] <richlowe> wesolows: and the plat-specifics was what I meant by "on appropriate platforms", it could at least be done for the Sun platforms (and other people contribute support for, maybe).
[03:19:25] <wesolows> sommerfeld: It sounds like what you'd want in that case is for the vhci nodes to be named for chassis and slot rather than controller, target, LUN.
[03:19:44] <sommerfeld> if we can get that information, yes
[03:19:56] <wesolows> sommerfeld: You clearly can't do that with the pchi nodes, since that's more likely to be a port address somewhere.
[03:20:09] <wesolows> The trouble is that doing this requires the kernel to have an SES client.  Yecch.
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[03:20:42] <sommerfeld> if zpool status tells me a disk has flown apart, i want to have some confidence i'm pulling the right disk and not the good twin.
[03:21:04] <jbk> well..
[03:21:08] <wesolows> Absolutely.  Of course, SES comes into play there, too - by turning on the failed or other LEDs.
[03:21:15] <wesolows> And THAT could be done in userland.
[03:21:43] <jbk> why not a userland daemon that perhaps makes symlinks based on topology to the correct nodes?
[03:21:46] <wesolows> richlowe: Indeed it could.
[03:21:49] <jbk> or am i misunderstanding things
[03:21:59] <jbk> (I'm also scanning through the libtopo code right now)
[03:22:08] <jbk> now that i know of it's existance :)
[03:22:22] <wesolows> jbk: If you could make symlinks, it would probably be just as well to not worry about the device nodes and just layer some tools on top of such a library.
[03:22:27] <wesolows> jbk: Hence my comment about ZFS.
[03:23:13] <jbk> well what if you're not using zfs?
[03:23:21] <sommerfeld> anyhow, i used to work for the guy who invented the uuid.  his view was that people should never actually see them.
[03:23:47] <jbk> for oracle, i could see more people going with asm (which is better off with raw luns/disks)
[03:23:51] <wesolows> jbk: I guess you get to edit vhciwhatever.conf and wade through UUID device nodes, then.  ZFS adds value.  Get over it.
[03:25:31] <wesolows> iSCSI also gives us /dev/dsk/reallylongthing.  This sort of stuff isn't really going to go away.
[03:25:33] <laca> Triskelios --> inbox
[03:26:41] <wesolows> Trying to manage the complexity in the kernel, where we don't really have a good systemic view of things, just doesn't seem like the right answer.  ZFS pretty obviously gives us the right abstractions for managing and interacting with storage in other ways; I see no reason it shouldn't be used to help administrators manage multipathing as well.
[03:26:47] <sommerfeld> the length isn't the problem.  it's the lack of anything meaningful in the name
[03:27:02] <wesolows> sommerfeld: Right - which fortifies my argument for ZFS.
[03:27:40] <sommerfeld> you have to name disks to zfs to add them (or in the future remove them)
[03:27:51] <sommerfeld> currently that's via /dev/dsk pathnames
[03:28:04] <wesolows> That's true, but those names don't have to always be device node names.
[03:29:09] <wesolows> Sure would be slick to be able to say zpool create raidz /enclosure=VENDOR,PRODUCT,REV/chassis=0/bay=2/disk=0 ...
[03:29:53] <wesolows> More typing, but loaded with clear, exact meaning.
[03:30:06] <richlowe> I'm not sure vendor/prod/rev is the best of tuples, but yeah.
[03:30:25] <wesolows> One must take what SCSI offers.
[03:31:50] <jbk> well what if it was somehow linked with devfsadm with possible modules to determine the topology information?
[03:32:21] <sommerfeld> doing it in multiple steps would help... first say /enclosure=X,Y,Z/chassis=W is "jbod0"
[03:32:28] <jbk> i know there is a way to get the vendor & serial# for a fc enclosure
[03:32:30] <wesolows> sommerfeld: Yes.
[03:32:45] <sommerfeld> then "jbod0/bay2/disk0"
[03:33:18] <wesolows> jbk: I think that may also be possible.  The catch is to be sure that we don't go trying to create device nodes too soon, as we need a lot of properties in the device tree already for that to work.  But yes, I bet it could be done.
[03:33:24] <sommerfeld> zpool add raidz jbod{0,1,2,3,4,5}/disk0
[03:33:54] <sommerfeld> zpool add raidz jbod{0,1,2,3,4,5}/disk1
[03:33:54] <wesolows> sommerfeld: Yes, that's really what I had in mind, though the storage location of that mapping is not obvious.
[03:33:55] <sommerfeld> etc.
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[03:34:59] <sommerfeld> too bad it's too expensive to put a little one-line LCD display on each jbod
[03:35:06] <jbk> hmm.. maybe my next project will be a small utility to use libtopo and spit out locations of all known controllers & nics on a system...
[03:35:32] <sommerfeld> so you end up using a labelmaker
[03:35:33] <moazamraja> any 'coolstack' x86/x64 users here/
[03:35:34] <wesolows> sommerfeld: And have it display the contents of the also unsupported-by-any-vendor subenclosure nickname control page?  :-)
[03:35:35] <moazamraja> ?
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[03:35:52] <sommerfeld> something like that.
[03:35:56] <sommerfeld> heck, the A5200 could do that
[03:36:15] <wesolows> Yeah, I'd really like to see us do that.
[03:36:19] <moazamraja> I noticed the coolstack apache httpd uses mpm_prefork
[03:36:22] <sommerfeld> never looked under the covers enough to see *how*
[03:36:36] <moazamraja> but I'd like to try mpm_worker
[03:36:49] <moazamraja> is there an easy "download and compile whole stack again" package?
[03:37:08] <wesolows> Well, if we were going to do it today, I'd want us to use that SES page and a few bytes in a flash part.  Not hard, really, but of course marketing would want the LCD thing to be usable for 455 other things too.
[03:37:59] <sommerfeld> animated beach balls and all that
[03:38:02] <wesolows> There's an SES "display" element which would also be useful, and in fact the spec covers both firmware and software control of its display.
[03:38:35] <richlowe> sommerfeld: pong, pull drives to control the paddles.
[03:39:02] <richlowe> or breakout, since then you have the left-to-right mapping.
[03:39:05] <wesolows> richlowe: With a generic SES client one could also use the plain old LEDs on a rack of JBODs to play tetris.
[03:39:07] <moazamraja> oh....
[03:39:12] <moazamraja> nevermind...reading the README helps.
[03:39:14] <moazamraja> ".  Using MPM-Worker with SSL (OpenSSL) often causes clients to fail with
[03:39:15] <moazamraja>    BAD-MAC errors. Many PHP extensions are also not thread-safe.
[03:39:15] <moazamraja>    This is the reason we chose to build with MPM-prefork."
[03:39:31] <wesolows> OpenSSL + threading == disaster
[03:39:59] <wesolows> That's what happens when you stuff a bunch of data into global space and don't know anything about the concept of library handles.
[03:41:15] <jbk> how's the nss or gnutls libraries in comparison?
[03:41:37] <wesolows> nss is something else unless I misunderstand you.  I haven't looked at gnutls.
[03:42:21] <jbk> umm.. the netscape nss libs
[03:42:24] <sommerfeld> netscape security somethingorother
[03:42:26] <wesolows> nspr you mean?
[03:42:31] <sommerfeld> nss is part of nspr
[03:42:34] <wesolows> ok
[03:43:15] <wesolows> I may have to go evaluate those; openssl is impossible to use safely in some circumstances because of its misdesign.
[03:43:18] <sommerfeld> and we deliver several copies of libnss3.so in solaris
[03:43:29] <jbk> :)
[03:44:17] <sommerfeld> (for reasons that have never been entirely clear other than paranoia)
[03:44:30] <Triskelios> laca: your mail hasn't come in yet
[03:44:56] <laca> hmm...
[03:45:59] * laca tried to send it from opensolaris.org... maybe i have sometihng misconfigured
[03:46:04] <laca> let me try sun.com
[03:47:47] <jbk> a bit of a fun exercise getting the sun webserver working w/ the crypto accel cards (Due to its use of nss)
[03:51:42] <RElling> who needs cards?  buy a n2 :-)
[03:51:53] <richlowe> RElling: you don't sell 'em yet.
[03:51:54] <RElling> RSN... of course
[03:52:13] <RElling> oh, we sell them right now, just don't deliver yet
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[03:52:39] <jbk> heh at sprint, I was yelling to whomever would listen, but there was one person that pretty much was responsible for the t1's never being deployed
[03:52:42] <jbk> (and for bogus reasons)
[03:52:48] * nrubsig groans
[03:52:59] * nrubsig wishes he had own kids
[03:53:19] <jbk> floating point (of which there were approximately 0 applications in IT that had any sort of floating point in them)
[03:53:26] <hile_> why does you breeding scare me nrubsig ?
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[03:53:41] <jbk> they're probably still just as stubborn
[03:54:10] <wesolows> hile_: Come on now; doesn't a vast army of komodo dragon wielding ksh93 advocates give you warm fuzzies? ;-)
[03:54:33] <wesolows> nrubsig: how's that going, anyway?  Last I saw you seemed pretty close.
[03:55:27] <nrubsig> wesolows: close to what ? Close to death, yes... thanks to babysitting three kids who have nothing else to do to use me as toy from 6.00am til 23:00hPM
[03:55:34] * nrubsig treazs his bruises
[03:55:37] <nrubsig> er
[03:55:38] <nrubsig> treats
[03:55:45] <nrubsig> hile_: ?!
[03:56:33] <nrubsig> wesolows: you mean pretty close to the putback ?
[03:56:38] <wesolows> yeah
[03:58:10] <nrubsig> wesolows: yes... AFAIK we should do the putback next week. I still have to catch-up with 6000+ emails in my InBox, half of them hopefully just "enlarge my karma"-SPAM and half of them from some indiana discussion. and six emails about dtrace vs. ksh93 vs. madness vs. satan etc.
[03:58:24] * nrubsig needs more coffee
[03:59:04] * nrubsig puts a sign on his door: Back from vacation since ~~29h, please apologise that I am not uptodate until next monday
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[04:08:53] <nrubsig> Ok, any comments about http://svn.genunix.org/repos/on/branches/ksh93/gisburn/doc/headsup_ksh93_first_putback.txt ?
[04:08:56] <nrubsig> (note: draft)
[04:10:17] <richlowe> some of your 'known bugs', are missing RFEs.
[04:10:51] <richlowe> (the ipv6 bit, the fopen bit)
[04:11:10] <richlowe> nrubsig: you'll may want to note the bug cat, too.
[04:11:17] <richlowe> though good luck with that, given the prior suck
[04:11:22] <nrubsig> richlowe: Erm, IPv6 support was mandatory for this putback
[04:11:23] * richlowe would say that utility/ksh is wrong, and will be confusing though.
[04:11:36] <richlowe> nrubsig: "fds command doesn't support IPv6", bottom of that document.
[04:11:45] <richlowe> nrubsig: that's not really a bug, it's a feature that isn't there, surely?
[04:11:51] <richlowe> nrubsig: and if it's mandatory, surely it should be there? :)
[04:12:12] <nrubsig> richlowe: the "fds" builtin is not enabled by default and not ARC'ed yet.
[04:12:27] <richlowe> then it's not a bug in what you're delivering.
[04:12:34] <nrubsig> richlowe: /dev/tcp, /dev/udp and /dev/sctp are IPv6-enabled by default.
[04:12:59] <nrubsig> richlowe: yeah, but many know the "fds" builtin and will try to use it for debugging purposes.
[04:13:16] <nrubsig> and the list is more a braindump
[04:13:17] <wesolows> A lot of the text is not actually needed; for example, everyone knows how isaexec works.
[04:13:37] <nrubsig> wesolows: Mhhh, Ok...
[04:13:42] <nrubsig> wesolows: what else should be removed ?
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[04:13:59] <sommerfeld> isaexec is not experimental
[04:14:09] <wesolows> Any you probably don't need the known bugs section - just tell people which cat/subcat to use, and they can look there at the existing stuff if they want.
[04:15:14] <sommerfeld> /usr/bin/ksh93 comes in 32bit and 64bit flavors; an appropriate variant will be selected automatically via isaexec
[04:15:19] <sommerfeld> would be a better way to put it
[04:15:34] <nrubsig> sommerfeld: no, but the use of isaexec for a shell still causes my stomach to go into the "alert, alert, the sabertooth tigers are coming..."-position. Just an instinct but the mind thinks it's Ok...
[04:17:05] <sommerfeld> so?
[04:17:33] <sommerfeld> in general headsup notices should be information-dense and not "chatty"
[04:17:34] <wesolows> Generally in a heads-up I want to know what's been added and where to look for more information.  A web page and a bug cat/subcat.  I also want to know what different/new behaviurs I should expect to see.  Knowing that I may be running a 64-bit shell is useful; things like the easter eggs don't really seem important.
[04:18:17] <wesolows> In fact, I'd replace everything after the pointer to the demos with a "File bugs in cat/subcat.  Direct questions to ksh93-integration..."
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[04:20:13] <wesolows> Notes 1 and 2 seem unnecessary.
[04:20:29] <wesolows> Note 4 is confusing; the first sentence is all I care about.
[04:20:40] <wesolows> Note 5 is useful.
[04:20:59] <wesolows> Note 6 is useful.
[04:21:12] <wesolows> I think the rest can go.
[04:22:31] <wesolows> It's helpful to remember that the audience for these messages consists of engineers, most of whom are quite experienced.
[04:23:12] <wesolows> Feynman wrote about this in regard to his experience studying biology - he tended to write lots of stuff that "everyone knows".
[04:24:34] <Triskelios> laca: okay, just got my SF account back (I lost the password for some years and the recovery option wasn't working ;) )
[04:26:00] <nrubsig> wesolows: note 1 is a comment on "we're not done yet" and note 2 is a small hint to stop people to thing that "ksh93's code is from 1993" (I am sick of correcting people on that over and over again. German IT magazin "IX" rejected the first request on a article series with the comment that the request is 14 years too late).
[04:26:12] <brendang> nrubsig: hey
[04:26:18] <nrubsig> brendang: Hi! :-)
[04:26:26] <brendang> nrubsig: how's the DTrace ksh93 provider going?
[04:26:42] <nrubsig> brendang: groan
[04:26:43] <brendang> nrubsig: Alan has had done really well with sh
[04:26:55] <nrubsig> brendang: you're number seven in two days
[04:27:00] <brendang> nrubsig: oops
[04:27:39] <brendang> nrubsig: well, Alan's work should make it easier for other shell providers to be written - a working example to learn from
[04:27:42] <nrubsig> brendang: I have a draft in my mind but real life is interfering. I doubt I can do anything on it until I have a new job.
[04:28:28] <brendang> nrubsig: boyd is taking a look and zsh and bash. that work might also help the ksh effort.
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[04:28:48] <nrubsig> brendang: BTW: shell style guide is at http://www.opensolaris.org/os/project/shell/shellstyle/
[04:28:49] <richlowe> brendang: to the extent it fleshes out the form the probes should take, no doubt.
[04:29:02] <brendang> nrubsig: but, we understand if life interferes. you have to do something to earn cash to eat. :)
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[04:29:23] <Triskelios> laca: replied
[04:29:28] <brendang> nrubsig: WTF can I never google that shell style guide? I've needed to refer to it a few times (to forward to people) but couldn't find it
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[04:30:16] <brendang> nrubsig: sweet, the style guide looks much better than last time I saw it :)
[04:30:19] <nrubsig> brendang: complain to the opensolaris.org site maintainers - I guess the site layout gets the crawlers stuck everywhere
[04:30:56] <brendang> nrubsig: or I can link to it elsewhere, to encourage google to actually find it
[04:30:59] <nrubsig> brendang: BTW: newest entry is http://www.opensolaris.org/os/project/shell/shellstyle/#compare_exit_code_using_math
[04:31:23] <nrubsig> brendang: spam comp.unix.shell with it and google will find it asap
[04:31:51] <brendang> nrubsig: ok. that's fine. would have thought it was part of using (( )) whenever you do math...
[04:32:12] <brendang> nrubsig: why is there a space before the ';'?????????????
[04:32:31] <brendang> (where "??????????????" == anger brewing)
[04:32:41] <bda> You wouldn't like brendang when he's angry.
[04:32:48] <wesolows> no, it's scary
[04:32:50] * bda prepares the sad walking away music just in case.
[04:33:13] <brendang> what? what?? WHAT???
[04:33:19] <brendang> if [ "$x" = "hello" ] ; then
[04:33:23] <brendang> while [ $# -gt 0 ]; do
[04:33:24] <nrubsig> brendang: the point of that entry is that $? is a number and using [ ] is an overkill (e.g. slower) and converts the number to string and then to a number again in the "test" (= '[') builtin.
[04:33:47] <richlowe> using test on $? is never right. ;)
[04:33:51] <richlowe> boyd will tell you.
[04:33:54] <richlowe> in excruciating detail.
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[04:34:06] <brendang> nrubsig: sure, I agree, but when I'm writing ksh then I don't use '[' anywhere, period.
[04:34:20] <wesolows> you use [[ presumably
[04:34:25] <brendang> yes, [[ or ((
[04:35:03] <brendang> nrubsig: so what's with the spaces before ';' for if statements only (WARNING: special casing alert!!)
[04:35:29] <nrubsig> erm
[04:35:51] <nrubsig> you mean "if foo ; then" vs. "if foo;then" ?
[04:35:58] <brendang> no,
[04:36:03] <brendang> "if foo; then"
[04:36:10] <nrubsig> erm
[04:36:15] <nrubsig> AFAIK it doesn't matter
[04:36:22] <brendang> what does the space after foo DO?
[04:36:22] <wesolows> I like "if foo; then" - what's wrong with it?
[04:36:31] <wesolows> oh "if foo ; then"
[04:36:36] <wesolows> yeah that's useless
[04:36:57] <nrubsig> wesolows: AFAIK nothing wrong with it, I only use spaces in such cases, that's all.
[04:37:28] <wesolows> space before semicolon is not allowed in the C style guide, and since there's no compelling reason to do it differently here, it's probably better to drop it.
[04:38:09] <brendang> nrubsig: consistancy. avoiding confusion (spaces are needed in some places, this isn't one of them).
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[04:40:26] <brendang> nrubsig: the style guide is going to be really useful. it won't take long to fix these spaces.
[04:40:33] <brendang> here's another,
[04:40:41] <brendang> BAD: if (( mybool==1 )) ; then do_something_1 ; fi
[04:40:52] <brendang> GOOD: if (( mybool == 1 )); then do_something_1; fi
[04:41:18] <nrubsig> erm
[04:41:31] <nrubsig> I'd be carefull with the ; following the ))
[04:41:41] <brendang> why?
[04:41:47] <nrubsig> just a feeling
[04:42:00] <brendang> hahaha - I wasn't expecting that answer :)
[04:42:13] <nrubsig> I never saw it before.
[04:42:26] <brendang> never seen ; directly after ))?
[04:42:35] <nrubsig> yes
[04:42:42] <brendang> *every* script I've written follows that convention
[04:43:03] <nrubsig> AFAIK I saw it always with a ${IFS} between "))" and ";"
[04:43:53] * nrubsig makes a note to drop an email to david korn to check whether it makes sense to add the unicode spaces to $IFS , too.
[04:44:06] <nrubsig> e.g. &nbsp; etc.
[04:44:17] <brendang> I've hardly *ever* seen it that way - I'd have noticed, as it is redundant and looks odd
[04:44:26] <nrubsig> brendang: seen what ?
[04:44:38] <nrubsig> &bnsp; ?
[04:44:43] <nrubsig> er
[04:44:48] <brendang> the space between )) and ;
[04:44:51] <nrubsig> &nbsp; (non-breaable space)
[04:44:58] <nrubsig> er
[04:45:02] <nrubsig> breakable
[04:45:17] <richlowe> brendan's point is that nobody puts spaces before a semi-colon.
[04:45:21] <brendang> yep
[04:45:22] <richlowe> not the formatting of the page.
[04:45:30] <brendang> and speaking on behalf of boyd,
[04:45:33] <brendang> http://www.users.on.net/~boyd.adamson/boyds.bashrc
[04:45:48] <brendang> boyd doesn't either (and like me, has written/seen a lot of scripting)
[04:45:49] <richlowe> it's almost as bad as the GNU loonies and their pentient for making C look like lisp 'foo (bar);' my arse.
[04:45:54] <nrubsig> richlowe: &nbsp; was a comment about adding unicode codepoints to $IFS
[04:46:17] <brendang> oh.
[04:46:42] <brendang> ok. well, unicode in IFS sounds like it might be useful.
[04:47:11] <nrubsig> brendang: see http://www.opensolaris.org/os/project/shell/shellstyle/#shell_uses_charatcers_not_bytes
[04:47:23] <richlowe> "I break for U+00A3"
[04:47:32] <nrubsig> brendang: my problem is that unicode added more space-like stuff
[04:48:01] <brendang> nrubsig: so long as you drop every space before ';' (should be easy to find). with the exception of case statements (cmd ;;)
[04:48:14] <nrubsig> brendang: since ksh93 supports non-ASCII characters for function names etc. and the shell guide allows either ASCII or UTF-8 as encoding for the scripts we may need to think about $IFS, too.
[04:48:44] <nrubsig> brendang: blocks (e.g. "{ ... ; }") need the space, too.
[04:49:28] <nrubsig> brendang: e.g. $ { foo ; foo_end ; } >out_foo ; { bar1 ; bar2 ; } >out_bar
[04:50:06] <nrubsig>  subshells, e.g. "( bar1 ; bar2) >out_bar # work without ';'
[04:51:21] <brendang> nrubsig: blocks do?? WTF?
[04:51:34] <brendang> nrubsig: can you run one and paste the error message you get without the space
[04:52:07] <nrubsig> ksh -c '{ print ; print }'
[04:52:08] <nrubsig> ksh: syntax error at line 1: `{' unmatched
[04:52:32] <nrubsig> ksh -c '{ print ; print ; }' # works
[04:52:42] <brendang> as does: ksh -c '{ print; print; }'
[04:52:47] <brendang> arugh!!!!
[04:53:12] <brendang> as you can see - NO space before ;
[04:53:33] * nrubsig crosses his eyes
[04:53:52] <nrubsig> Maybe we just say "spaces after commands are permissible"
[04:54:29] <brendang> why not make a statement about the shell usually ignoring whitespace
[04:54:38] <brendang> than encouraging people to break the convention
[04:54:54] <nrubsig> erm
[04:55:07] <brendang> like I said, it stands out like dog's balls - people don't put spaces before ;
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[04:58:40] <brendang> nrubsig: but don't let me put you off this style guide. we need this guide badly. it just needs a few things twiddled.
[04:58:52] <brendang> nrubsig: also, "It is highly recommended to use ksh style functions (function foo { ... }) instead of Bourne-style functions (foo() { ... })"
[04:59:29] <brendang> nrubsig: I'd say "Do NOT use Bourne-style functions. Use ksh-style functions."
[05:00:22] <brendang> nrubsig: this is a style guide -- if it makes sense, tell people to do it, rather than letting them decide. busy sysadmins don't want to have to decide if someone with expertise can do that for them.
[05:01:10] <brendang> it would be a pain if cstyle gave recommendations rather than do's and don'ts.
[05:01:26] <brendang> dos/donts == easy
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[05:01:34] <nrubsig> well, I'd like to make the styleguide sounds nicely, not the grouchy manager style "you must" ...
[05:02:11] <brendang> nrubsig: ok, sure, there may be a way to do that while still saying "do this", "do NOT do that".
[05:02:16] <nrubsig> er "you must [...] or the komodo dragons will get you"
[05:02:26] <nrubsig> mhhh
[05:02:49] <brendang> :)
[05:03:05] <brendang> This is what I've been doing for DTrace: http://www.solarisinternals.com/wiki/index.php/DTrace_Topics_Style
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[05:09:03] <nrubsig> Please reload http://svn.genunix.org/repos/on/branches/ksh93/gisburn/doc/headsup_ksh93_first_putback.txt
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[05:10:24] <brendang> nrubsig: cool!
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[05:10:59] <jbk> god there are some brain dead behaviors in the closed source sparc disassembler :(
[05:11:16] <richlowe> which?
[05:11:21] <jbk> the library
[05:11:26] <richlowe> I meant which behaviours, sorry.
[05:11:36] <jbk> restore %g0, %g0, %g0 gets translated to 'restore'
[05:11:42] <jbk> but restore %g0, 0x0, %g0 does not
[05:12:01] <richlowe> oh.
[05:14:39] <jbk> and i still can't figure out when it uses btst and when it doesn't
[05:14:44] <jbk> it seems completely random
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[05:18:34] <richlowe> hrm, given that's pretty much specification, perhaps someone who can see it could tell you?
[05:18:40] <richlowe> (Keith?)
[05:22:49] <brendang> keith has left the building.
[05:22:57] <richlowe> brendang: ah.
[05:23:13] <richlowe> brendang: he was among the more likely to know whether that'd work, I guess.
[05:23:37] <sommerfeld> 6591909 zfs(1m) error: @ is not an ampersand
[05:23:44] <sommerfeld> silly bug of the day
[05:23:56] <richlowe> sommerfeld: hey, you'd know, too.
[05:24:05] <richlowe> sommerfeld: is my statement above re: it being specification accurate?
[05:24:56] <brendang> hahaha
[05:24:57] <sommerfeld> jbk: trying to exactly emulate its behavior to weed out your bugs?
[05:25:02] <brendang> thank goodness for the wikipedia links
[05:25:49] <richlowe> aww, b.o.o didn't sync yet.
[05:25:56] <richlowe> can we get a summary, so we don't miss the fun? :)
[05:25:59] <sommerfeld> i only filed it a minute ago
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[05:26:20] <sommerfeld> "The character "@" (ascii code 64 decimal, better known as an "At sign") is used by zfs delegated administration to name indirect permission sets.
[05:26:20] <sommerfeld> The zfs man page in snv_70 refers to this character as an "ampersand" in two places"
[05:26:32] <sommerfeld> (quote from man page)
[05:26:43] <sommerfeld> An ampersand is the "&" character (ascii code 38 decimal), not "@".
[05:26:43] <sommerfeld> See:
[05:26:43] <sommerfeld> 	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/At_sign
[05:26:43] <sommerfeld> 	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ampersand
[05:28:13] <richlowe> sommerfeld: ah.
[05:33:39] <sommerfeld> jbk: it looks like btst is used if the destination register is zero in V9 mode only; otherwise you get andcc
[05:34:14] <jbk> thanks.. would have taken a lot of trial and error to figure that out :)
[05:34:39] <jbk> now if i could only smack whoever decided on the behavior of op=0x2, op3=0x28
[05:35:21] <sommerfeld> jbk: restore has no arguments when: dest reg is zero; source register 1 is zero; source register 2 is zero; "I" bit is zero.
[05:36:22] <sommerfeld> jbk: uh, I see.
[05:36:28] <jbk> i got that one, though as far as i can tell, when rs1==rs2==0, i has no difference in behavior
[05:36:31] <jbk> yeah :)
[05:36:45] <jbk> i have a bit of work to do still on that one
[05:37:08] <sommerfeld> stbar, membar, rd from %asr
[05:37:21] <jbk> and on v9, a whole bunch of other stuff too
[05:37:36] <jbk> unless it's cheating and not renaming the %asr values
[05:37:40] <jbk> on v9
[05:37:51] <jbk> which i wouldn't be surprised if it did
[05:39:07] <sommerfeld> on v9 it does in fact know the names of a bunch of registers
[05:39:18] <sommerfeld> %y, %ccr, %asi, %tick, %pc, ...
[05:39:32] <jbk> yeah
[05:40:48] <sommerfeld> there may be some element of "oh, crap, how do we fit this new feature into the instruction space we haven't used yet.."
[05:41:33] <sommerfeld> .. ones it doesn't know get printed %asr <decimal-int>
[05:41:38] <sommerfeld> err, without the space
[05:41:41] <jbk> yeah
[05:42:21] <sommerfeld> and looks like there's a different set for 2 / 0x2A and 2 / 0x32
[05:44:01] <jbk> yep
[05:44:03] <jbk> read vs write
[05:44:25] <sommerfeld> (%priv_<decimal>)
[05:44:44] <jbk> for the privreg?
[05:44:57] <sommerfeld> for otherwise undecoded privregs
[05:45:00] <jbk> I think those are all the same, the asr's have different ones
[05:45:03] <jbk> oh
[05:45:08] <jbk> i return an invalid instr
[05:45:22] <jbk> good to know :)
[05:45:23] <sommerfeld> rdpr / wrpr instructions
[05:45:39] <sommerfeld> take a look at grungy parts of the trap code
[05:45:54] <sommerfeld> register window mangling, etc.,
[05:45:55] <jbk> tcc?
[05:46:19] <jbk> tn, te, etc.?
[05:46:35] <sommerfeld> trap-on-condition code?
[05:46:42] <jbk> is that what you mean?
[05:46:57] <sommerfeld> no, I mean the code in the kernel that runs after a trap
[05:48:50] <sommerfeld> lots of rdpr's in there
[05:49:03] <sommerfeld> usr/src/uts/sun4u/ml/trap_table.s, for instance
[05:50:41] <sommerfeld> disassemble that correctly and you're probably got a bunch of the obscure corners working
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[05:50:59] <jbk> well my plan is to run dis on stuff under /kernel
[05:51:08] <jbk> so I should grab a lot of that
[05:52:40] <jbk> i've been #if defined(CLOSED_COMPAT) to make my code output the same stuff as the current disassembler, that way, i can collect all the differences, then solicit feedback as to which behavior to keep
[05:53:24] <sommerfeld> i'd go all the way and make it a run-time conditional :-)
[05:53:47] <jbk> well that'd require also changing the current interface
[05:54:13] <jbk> that might be step 2 :)
[05:54:33] <richlowe> the downside of making dis better in the process, is that you lose an avenue for testing.
[05:54:47] <richlowe> (dis'ing every ELF file in the system, every object in the build, and comparing)
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[05:55:11] <jbk> well remember, dis is just using libdisasm.so to do the dirty work
[05:55:19] <jbk> i'm just using LD_PRELOAD to use my version
[05:55:22] <jbk> when i want dis to use it
[05:55:34] <jbk> vs. the version w/ the closed bits compiled in
[05:56:01] <jbk> but still, probably better to ensure this works first before changing dis
[05:56:20] <jbk> might also mean modifying mdb
[05:56:27] <jbk> and anything else that is a consumer of libdisasm.so
[05:57:06] <sommerfeld> well, you could have the closed-compat behavior enabled by an environment variable being set
[05:57:21] <jbk> that was another idea
[05:57:56] <jbk> i was tempted to add in some debug code that'd actually spit out the binary value of an instruction + possibly the field breakdown if an env variable was set
[05:58:04] <jbk> simply for testing
[05:58:28] <sommerfeld> that's also a really good idea
[05:58:44] <richlowe> jbk: on sparc, I think that's primarily mdb.
[06:00:15] <jbk> hopefully i'll get svn || hg access here soon and I can stick all this code up somewhere where others can look/laugh/etc. :)
[06:00:54] <richlowe> Hrm, the emancipation project is, well a project.
[06:00:59] <richlowe> I'd think your stuff fit under there...
[06:02:58] <jbk> al hopper offered some stuff on genunix.org, so i was just gonna get that setup
[06:03:17] <jbk> as i really don't know the process to get any space on os.org
[06:03:48] <jbk> i'm sure it's buried in there somewhere...
[06:07:07] <sommerfeld> yup, there's an http://hg.genunix.org/
[06:08:02] <sommerfeld> and anonymous ssh access via hg.opensolaris.org for projects
[06:08:43] <richlowe> handy.
[06:08:59] <richlowe> there's times I've wanted someplace to push random work-in-progress stuff.
[06:12:28] <sommerfeld> and, well, the cr.opensolaris.org could also be used for small stuff
[06:16:12] <richlowe> I think pushing a workspace there would cause dp to get rather angry
[06:16:41] <richlowe> you could put a bundle up though.
[06:16:57] <sommerfeld> like i said, "small stuff"
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[06:34:33] <sponix> I have roughly 5meg left, anything new ?
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[06:58:29] <Rawn027> how do I go about patching solaris 10 if I dont have a subscription for patches?
[06:58:32] <Rawn027> I have a clean install of solaris 10 on x86 right now
[06:59:22] <palowoda> You upgrade to OpenSolaris and forget about patching.
[06:59:45] <richlowe> Or you apply only those patches that are free.
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[07:00:17] <richlowe> either way, smpatch, I think
[07:00:29] <richlowe> though I bet there's some irritating thing or other to do first.
[07:00:35] <moazamraja> Rawn027: http://sunsolve.sun.com/show.do?target=patches/os-patches
[07:00:42] <moazamraja> get the latest patches from there
[07:00:45] <moazamraja> and apply them
[07:00:50] <Rawn027> thanks
[07:00:55] <moazamraja> those don't require any subscription
[07:01:28] <Rawn027> do i download individually from there and apply themn or is there an automated solution or a combined update?
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[07:02:21] <moazamraja> you can download a set of them
[07:04:23] <moazamraja> Rawn027: http://sunsolve.sun.com/show.do?target=home      and go to "Select SunOS and Patch Number"
[07:04:27] <moazamraja> i thikn that'll do it
[07:04:30] <jbk> hmm
[07:04:45] <jbk> what happens if i modify a string returned from getenv() ?
[07:05:46] <sommerfeld> what do you mean by "modify" ?
[07:06:06] <Cuchullain> anyone know when an SXCE based on NV_70 will be up for download?
[07:06:29] <richlowe> My guess would be 10 days.
[07:06:42] <jbk> well say i do char *s = getenv('foo'); char *p = strchr(s, ','); if (p != NULL) { *p = ':'; }
[07:06:59] <jbk> no appending, just changing existing characters in the string
[07:07:13] * Cuchullain is impatient
[07:07:28] <Rawn027> what does project indiana start?
[07:07:29] <Cuchullain> cheers rich
[07:07:34] <Rawn027> is that official NV70?
[07:07:39] <Rawn027> or is it not going to be for a while
[07:08:09] <richlowe> jbk: looking at it, it modifies the env.
[07:08:14] <richlowe> but SuSv3 says not to.
[07:08:57] <palowoda> Err I thought putenv would modify the envionment.
[07:09:50] <richlowe> the difference being that putenv should, and what jbk is talking about probably happens to.
[07:10:01] <richlowe> though it would be equally valid for it to manifest corporally and crap on your shoes.
[07:13:10] <Rawn027> i wish i could just run smpatch update
[07:14:46] <palowoda> smpatch doesn't work on opensolaris.
[07:15:00] <Rawn027> im running solaris
[07:15:04] <Rawn027> 10 11/06
[07:15:15] <palowoda> What irc are you on?
[07:15:18] <Rawn027> I have had bad luck with open solaris on the machine im
[07:15:27] <Rawn027> I am on Linkinus (On my MacBook Pro)
[07:15:40] <palowoda> What is the channel name?
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[07:16:40] <Rawn027> palowoda: Not even going to digify you with an answer. OpenSolaris and Solaris are functionally similar.
[07:17:13] <palowoda> Rawn027: But smpatch doesn't work on opensolaris.
[07:17:21] <richlowe> palowoda: not technically true, apparently.
[07:17:28] <richlowe> palowoda: it will (allegedly) still pull patches for unbundled stuff.
[07:17:38] <richlowe> if you happen to be running SX:CE, and thus have smpatch.
[07:17:50] <palowoda> richlowe: Who is testing smpatch on opensolaris?
[07:18:28] <richlowe> I didn't say it was supported, just that it allegedly would possibly do something.
[07:18:59] <richlowe> if you go by what's actually supported, the answer is "nothing".
[07:19:18] <richlowe> in the same way that if you go by the definitions, nobody is running opensolaris, because opensolaris is just the code.
[07:19:29] <palowoda> Well it's kind of useless if nobody is doing anything with it.
[07:24:11] <Rawn027> would i need to reboot after patching?
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[07:51:32] <WickedWicky> morning!
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[09:14:29] <giant> um...i got some error while installed kernel patch on solaris10 x86,it told me" Signature verification failed" like this: http://forum.java.sun.com/thread.jspa?threadID=5166245&tstart=0  .could anybody know what's the problem with it?
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[10:44:42] <sponix> anyone awake ?
[10:45:57] <g4lt-mordant> no
[10:46:14] <sponix> sweet
[10:47:23] * Tempt yawns
[10:47:33] <sponix> anyone use raidz on 4 or 5 external usb2 Hard Drives ?
[10:47:48] <Tempt> woah
[10:47:55] <Tempt> That's an interesting one
[10:48:10] <sponix> I've done it with 4 thumb/flash drives (1G)
[10:48:13] <Tempt> sounds like hassle.
[10:48:24] <sponix> wondering what kind of hit I will take on Read/Write speeds
[10:48:30] <palowoda> slow
[10:48:45] <sponix> I get 10-15MB/s from them right now
[10:48:54] <palowoda> write speed?
[10:48:59] <g4lt-mordant> why would you not use raidz?
[10:49:18] <sponix> g4lt-mordant: I plan to use raidz
[10:49:31] <g4lt-mordant> then why are you asking about non zpool?
[10:49:42] <g4lt-mordant> zpool changes things a lot
[10:50:15] <g4lt-mordant> in fact, it chages "slow" to "pathetically slow" IME
[10:50:21] <sponix> wtf? my first statement was this: anyone use raidz on 4 or 5 external usb2 Hard Drives ?
[10:51:02] * WickedWicky stretches
[10:51:07] <sponix> brb
[10:54:10] <sponix> I have at least 4 x 500G USB2 Drives and yes plan to do zpool create tank raidz dev1 dev2 dev3 dev4 on them
[10:54:51] <sponix> writing to all 4 will probably choke the life out of my laptop, but reads I might get slightly higher than I single drive read, I hope
[10:55:08] <sponix> just wanted to see if anyone had done it before
[10:55:34] <WickedWicky> is everybody following the administrator's manual strictly, are people without imagination when it comes to defining names for their pools or is there a reason everybody calls their pool "tank" ?
[10:55:58] <g4lt-mordant> WickedWicky, funny, none of my pools ar called tank
[10:56:08] <sponix> WickedWicky: I thought pr0n was to obvious for a name ;)
[10:56:24] <quasi> WickedWicky: tank? my pools are either named data or x1
[10:56:26] <WickedWicky> sounds catchy though
[10:56:33] <WickedWicky> yes  but i never see you ask questions about zfs
[10:56:38] <g4lt-mordant> on my craptop, they're called after the eventaul diurectory, on my U60, they're called testpool
[10:56:45] <WickedWicky> everybody who I see asking questions about ZFS here has a pool named 'tank'
[10:57:00] <quasi> WickedWicky: but I bet a lot of people prefer copy pasting commands
[10:57:05] <Tempt> I think "tank" is the example pool name in the doco
[10:57:09] <oxygene> yes
[10:57:10] <WickedWicky> yea.. you learn a lot by that... I guess..
[10:57:12] <sponix> WickedWicky: well, at least it shows they made it to the manual ;)
[10:57:15] <WickedWicky> Tempt: that's why I asked
[10:57:20] <quasi> WickedWicky: if they're asking, perhaps they don't understand
[10:57:35] <sponix> <-- rotflmao
[10:57:50] <WickedWicky> that's fine.. I am just not a big fan of copy and pasting stuff from a manual without understanding what I am copy pasting
[10:58:19] <WickedWicky> then again.. I dont understand girls either.. yet I like them a lot
[10:58:26] <sponix> any estimates on what I will get for read/write speeds ?
[10:58:42] <WickedWicky> dunno, never tested USB hard drives
[10:58:47] <sponix> I guess I'll just have to set it up and run the test with zfs ;)
[10:58:50] <palowoda> 5Meg/sec on writes with raidz
[10:59:03] <sponix> palowoda: on USB2, or in general :P
[10:59:21] <palowoda> USB2.
[10:59:24] <estibi> sponix: that will be quite slow, because you try to use USB as interface
[10:59:36] <sponix> I was _guessing_ 4-6Meg write, and 15-25Meg Read
[11:00:52] <palowoda> Not much to write home about.  I get about 110Meg/sec writes on three SATA 500G drives in an amd x2 desktop.  raidz.
[11:01:35] <palowoda> What are you going to use it for backup?
[11:01:59] <sponix> Media Share
[11:02:00] <estibi> btw, i use zfs on my pendrive, because zfs is faster then pcfs ;)
[11:02:26] <palowoda> Anything is faster than solaris version of pcfs.
[11:03:41] <sponix> yeah sata is the shit, wish I hadn't already bought a ton of drives before it was common
[11:04:47] <palowoda> I have no problems with them.  I'd like to get my hands on about three of those new 1T Hitachi drives.
[11:05:06] <sponix> Hitachi makes good drives ?
[11:05:29] <palowoda> Yeah those things sustain about 85Meg/sec writes.
[11:05:30] <Chipdancer> I've just reinstalled snv66+xen onto a new root disk and then installed the raid card drivers for my areca card and rebooted
[11:05:51] <Chipdancer> I have(had) a zpool and fs' on the raid device prior to the installation, however, they have not automatically shown up after this procedure
[11:06:00] <Chipdancer> I can see the LUN of the raid card with iostat -En
[11:06:17] <Chipdancer> what magic incantation am I missing to get it to probe and pick up my previously created zpools and zfs'
[11:06:17] <Chipdancer> ?
[11:06:45] <estibi> Chipdancer: try zpool import
[11:06:46] <asyd> \_o<
[11:06:47] <sponix> is that the case for an export prior to the install, and an import to bring the pool back in ?
[11:07:06] <palowoda> Chipdancer: Also try 'zpool import -f'
[11:07:11] <Chipdancer> hrmm, zpool import shows the pool and gives it a state of ONLINE
[11:07:19] <Chipdancer> that said, after that zpool list still shows no pools available
[11:07:23] <Chipdancer> d'oh
[11:07:26] <Chipdancer> +-f.. ok
[11:07:33] <Chipdancer> same thing
[11:07:40] <estibi> Chipdancer: zfs mount -a ?
[11:07:57] <Chipdancer> no, I've had a grolsch and brain is obviously slower than fingers
[11:08:04] <sponix> zfs -doItYouBiatch !
[11:08:07] <Chipdancer> seems I need to do zpool import -f POOLNAME
[11:08:08] <asyd> very strange, check if your zfs service is running
[11:08:22] <Chipdancer> yeah, that was it
[11:08:23] <Chipdancer> thanks
[11:08:36] <Chipdancer> now to try to migrate the new build to zfsroot and reboot to that
[11:08:53] <sponix> Chipdancer: wish you luck
[11:09:08] <Chipdancer> sponix: thanks
[11:09:18] <Chipdancer> sponix: I have zfsroot on my other machines, however, they are scsi root disks, not sata
[11:09:27] <sponix> I have to get my wife to get off her butt and mail my next SX DVD
[11:09:30] <Chipdancer> sponix: I tried earlier today but it was refusing to successfully boot
[11:10:12] <sponix> Chipdancer: I'll be glad when it comes as a standard install option
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[11:14:21] <Chipdancer> sponix: definitely
[11:14:36] <Chipdancer> however, since I want to use the xen drops, I'll be waiting longer until that becomes standard too
[11:15:02] <sponix> what do you use xen for currently ?
[11:15:17] <estibi> Chipdancer: do you use hvm guests ?
[11:15:23] <Chipdancer> estibi: no, paravirt
[11:15:34] <Chipdancer> but I haven't got my guests working under sol dom0 yet
[11:16:03] <estibi> i have sol10 dom0 now
[11:16:07] <Chipdancer> (they were under a linux dom0 and internally to the disk image files have LVM - currently I have issues getting the sol dom0 to present the disk image file correctly to the guest)
[11:16:30] <estibi> but also troubles with network under solU
[11:16:53] <Chipdancer> estibi: no xenbr if's?
[11:17:10] <estibi> Chipdancer: yes
[11:17:26] <Chipdancer> ok, off goes my zfs-actual-root-install.sh instance
[11:17:37] * Chipdancer is proud of his raid zpool :)
[11:17:44] <Chipdancer> massive                6.7T    21K   6.5T     1%    /massive
[11:17:54] <Tempt> fark
[11:18:01] <palowoda> Good performance on the controller?
[11:18:08] <Tempt> details?
[11:18:13] <sponix> Chipdancer: what flavor of drives
[11:18:27] <Chipdancer> palowoda: haven't done conclusive tests as yet but they are in raid6 formation :)
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[11:18:32] <sponix> beats the hell out of my wanna been 2T USB2 pool
[11:19:03] <Chipdancer> Tempt: 12 * 750GB Seagate 7200RPM Perpendicular with an Areca 1230 PCI-E 8x controller
[11:19:29] <palowoda> Shesh.
[11:19:30] <sponix> Chipdancer: that set you back about 1K+ riiight ?
[11:19:42] <Chipdancer> sponix: which that?
[11:19:58] <Chipdancer> in AUD it was total about $4k
[11:19:59] <sponix> Chipdancer: Drives && controller, total cost, over 1K ?
[11:20:06] <sponix> wtf
[11:20:25] <Chipdancer> afk, dinnertime
[11:20:30] <Chipdancer> back in a while
[11:20:37] <Tempt> That's not bad.
[11:20:46] <Tempt> Whatchya going to fill it with?
[11:21:00] <sponix> Furry pr0n !
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[11:22:53] <Chipdancer> Tempt: archives, backup, random data storage, mythtv etc
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[11:25:21] <palowoda> Chipdancer: You don't have MythTV running on Solaris do you?
[11:27:33] <sickness> oh, that, coupled with a working bt8x8 driver, would be _neat_ =)
[11:29:58] <quasi> I thought there was a bt8x8 driver
[11:30:48] <sickness> yeah there is, but I don't know in which state it is, I heard mixed impressions...
[11:32:27] <quasi> prolly old and not very useful
[11:33:04] <sickness> :/
[11:33:19] <palowoda> http://bt848x.sourceforge.net/
[11:33:28] <sickness> yeah that one
[11:33:35] <quasi> admittedly I have no idea - haven't bothered with it yet
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[11:52:22] <edwardocallaghan> Hey all
[11:52:33] <edwardocallaghan> Tempt:Are you around ?
[11:53:34] <estibi> edwardocallaghan: hi
[11:53:47] <edwardocallaghan> Hey
[11:53:50] <edwardocallaghan> Hows things
[11:54:11] <edwardocallaghan> IRC seems dead tonight
[11:54:29] <palowoda> Yeah slow.
[11:55:11] <edwardocallaghan> Well
[11:55:27] <edwardocallaghan> I was just poping in so see if Tempt was around
[11:55:36] <edwardocallaghan> and looking if boyd is back yet
[11:56:45] <palowoda> Hmm somebody at Sun was working on MythTV on opensolaris http://www.guug.de/veranstaltungen/osdevcon2007/slides/OSMythTV.pdf
[11:57:32] <palowoda> Wasted too much time with a Mac Mini though.
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[12:01:32] <Tempt> moof
[12:01:39] <Tempt> I'm around every now and again.
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[12:06:20] <edwardocallaghan> Tempt:How dee
[12:06:32] <Tempt> What's up?
[12:06:40] <edwardocallaghan> Dennis is on borad now
[12:06:51] <Tempt> Cool.
[12:06:52] <Tempt> Nifty.
[12:07:00] <edwardocallaghan> Did you have any time to do much yet?
[12:07:31] <edwardocallaghan> I can't always get to this IRC as the ports are blocked at our collage proxy :(
[12:07:32] <Tempt> nope.
[12:07:41] <Tempt> I'm recovering from last night's celebrations.
[12:07:50] <edwardocallaghan> Yes, hmmm
[12:07:57] <edwardocallaghan> (_same_) :P
[12:07:59] <Tempt> edwardocallaghan: Find a way past it - can you ssh?
[12:08:06] <Tempt> or ssh over https proy?
[12:08:09] <Tempt> proxy...
[12:08:15] <edwardocallaghan> nope
[12:08:30] <edwardocallaghan> almost all is blocked
[12:08:48] <Tempt> Surely https should be fine.
[12:08:55] <edwardocallaghan> I don't think there is even a port open for the anti virri
[12:09:13] <edwardocallaghan> https should be open
[12:09:24] <Tempt> So use ssgd or something.
[12:09:25] <edwardocallaghan> is that 112 or something
[12:09:30] <Tempt> 443
[12:10:11] <edwardocallaghan> Ah yes, I hmm i though that was MySQL port
[12:10:21] <edwardocallaghan> But I have been drinking tonight :p
[12:10:52] <Tempt> I can provide you with a login to my SGD server if you don't have the resources to run your own.
[12:10:59] <edwardocallaghan> I can try it with www.ircatwork.com
[12:11:18] <edwardocallaghan> I don't have any resources at the moment
[12:11:31] <edwardocallaghan> they limit you to 10mb of internet a day !
[12:11:42] <Tempt> Where the hell is this place?
[12:11:51] <edwardocallaghan> CIT in the ACT
[12:12:01] <Tempt> CIT?
[12:12:06] <edwardocallaghan> Just crap internet
[12:12:55] <Tempt> Well, if you need an SSGD login just let me know.
[12:13:02] <edwardocallaghan> maybe i'll boot up a live cd and just use lynx
[12:13:23] <edwardocallaghan> I have not ever used a SSGD before
[12:13:33] <edwardocallaghan> Can I try it please
[12:13:54] <Tempt> Sure.
[12:13:57] <edwardocallaghan> _thanks_!
[12:14:22] <edwardocallaghan> Man, I am so not use to the DSL in Oz
[12:14:27] <edwardocallaghan> or the lack of it
[12:16:26] <Tempt> I /msg'd you some details
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[12:23:40] <boyd> richlowe: oi! I resemble that remark
[12:24:58] <edwardocallaghan> boyd:Hey your back!?
[12:25:10] <boyd> edwardocallaghan: Yep.
[12:25:24] <boyd> got back late last night and slept a good part of today
[12:25:46] <edwardocallaghan> boyd:How was the trip mate?
[12:26:03] <boyd> It was "okay". Glad to be back, frankly.
[12:26:32] <boyd> The facility was so bad that my students mutinied after the first day and the rest of the course was at another venue.
[12:26:48] * boyd wonders if using the term "mutiny" is sensitive to indians.
[12:28:31] <Tempt> Hey boyd.
[12:28:43] <boyd> Yo
[12:28:48] <Tempt> Take some happysnaps of India?
[12:29:06] <Tempt> What was wrong with the facility?
[12:31:17] <boyd> It was 30 km (that's ~ 1h45m in Mumbai traffic) from *anything*. It was cramped, hot, hd no internet access at all and the toiletry facilities... existed, but that's about all
[12:31:46] <boyd> Tempt: I have some pics... lemme put them somewhere
[12:31:56] * boyd fires up bluetooth
[12:32:03] <edwardocallaghan> yea, lets have a lookie
[12:32:14] <boyd> Not pics of the facility, unforch
[12:32:46] <boyd> So, my hotel was this place, www.saharastar.com   looks nice, right?
[12:32:53] <edwardocallaghan> boyd:Ah yes, I have my site up btw
[12:33:03] <boyd> edwardocallaghan: Cool... URL
[12:33:04] <boyd> ?
[12:34:37] <edwardocallaghan> boyd:http://moonshine.opn4.org/
[12:34:53] <edwardocallaghan> Looking for some people to help out and get things togther
[12:35:06] <edwardocallaghan> I need some graphics done at the moment
[12:35:11] <Tempt> horrific flash based website with horrible music
[12:35:15] <Tempt> classy
[12:35:25] <Tempt> that's the doompit you were staying in?
[12:35:31] <asyd> anyone have ever tested areca raid controllers
[12:36:06] <edwardocallaghan> Tempt:I too hate all this madness with Flash !
[12:36:16] <edwardocallaghan> simple works well, very well
[12:36:32] <boyd> Tempt: yep, so the pics look... ok, right..
[12:36:43] <boyd> Note there is nothing of the outside of the hotel
[12:36:49] <Tempt> indeed.
[12:37:18] <edwardocallaghan> yea i did indeed notice that
[12:38:10] <boyd> This is the outside of the hotel... http://www.users.on.net/~boyd.adamson/Image178.jpg (blurry camphone pic)
[12:38:32] <edwardocallaghan> boyd:reg yourself at my site, I can upgrade your account then
[12:38:44] <Tempt> how odd
[12:38:49] <Tempt> wierd looking
[12:38:54] <boyd> The astute will notice that's actually a *model* of the outside.. since the hotel is really not finished...
[12:39:19] <edwardocallaghan> wow them cars look like they have been rendered :p
[12:39:25] <Tempt> oh.
[12:39:31] <Tempt> So it's a complete balls up then
[12:39:32] <edwardocallaghan> haha!
[12:39:58] <boyd> This is the *actual* outside: http://www.users.on.net/~boyd.adamson/Image177.jpg
[12:40:20] <edwardocallaghan> Tempt:I got a Q from a mate here, who is the best ISP for ADSL2+ around ?
[12:40:27] <Tempt> Depends
[12:40:36] <Tempt> You need to find one in your area
[12:40:46] <boyd> The rust doesn't show that well on that pic
[12:40:53] <edwardocallaghan> Tempt:ACT
[12:40:54] <boyd> Many people like TPG
[12:41:00] <Tempt> TPG is cheap and cheerful
[12:41:02] <boyd> dunno if they do ACT
[12:41:11] <Tempt> Before the price hikes I would have said internode.
[12:41:17] <Tempt> Now I just say .. look on whirlpool
[12:41:52] <boyd> So, there are some design faults with the hotel.. note that it's kinda like a cricket ground in design...
[12:42:23] <boyd> There is one set of lifts and I was on the opposite side... had to walk past 50 rooms to get to mine, clockwise or anticlockwise
[12:42:33] <Tempt> Oh, that's nice.
[12:42:44] <Tempt> And the training facility?
[12:43:33] <boyd> It was.. worse, much worse... I'd have taken pics, but I was dumfounded.
[12:43:37] <boyd> dumbfounded
[12:43:44] <Tempt> Come on, tell the story
[12:44:12] <WickedWicky> was the lunch good at least?
[12:44:17] <WickedWicky> (hi all)
[12:44:22] <Tempt> it was vindalootastic I'm sure
[12:44:35] <boyd> The hotel had some nice touches... like the urinal TV.. http://www.users.on.net/~boyd.adamson/Image179.jpg (sorry unrotated)
[12:44:40] <edwardocallaghan> So did you play cricket with the Indeains old chap ?
[12:45:11] <boyd> No cricket, plenty of cricket talk.. Lunch wasn't bad.
[12:45:20] <boyd> Plenty of Haneef talk too..
[12:46:06] <edwardocallaghan> boyd:Was that TV in the Uranus suite ?
[12:46:17] <boyd> Hehe
[12:46:28] <edwardocallaghan> thats very funny!
[12:46:51] <palowoda> Full lenght movies?
[12:46:56] <boyd> And here's the wide range in the *one* duty free shop at Mumbai airport: http://www.users.on.net/~boyd.adamson/Image180.jpg
[12:47:32] <Tempt> What a stunning range.
[12:47:45] <WickedWicky> chivas!
[12:47:56] <palowoda> Overstocked.
[12:47:58] <boyd> Yes, there are about half a dozen Remy Martin there on the left...
[12:48:03] <WickedWicky> lol
[12:48:13] <boyd> and some cartons of cogs on the far right
[12:48:39] <WickedWicky> well. this place is a havala for the indeciseve
[12:48:56] <Tempt> Didja bring me a carton of B&H?
[12:48:57] <edwardocallaghan> oh dear
[12:49:13] <edwardocallaghan> its funny this end tonight as well
[12:49:27] <edwardocallaghan> people in my block are drinking passion pop
[12:49:36] <edwardocallaghan> but then started at 11 this morning !
[12:49:54] <edwardocallaghan> not cool
[12:49:57] <WickedWicky> wasted like a duck?
[12:50:00] <boyd> Geez, they'll need hopitalisation
[12:50:11] <edwardocallaghan> _quak quak_
[12:50:43] <WickedWicky> it's only 00:50pm here... I cant even think about alcohol at the moment
[12:50:57] <edwardocallaghan> boyd:naar, there live
[12:50:58] <WickedWicky> 12:50
[12:51:18] <edwardocallaghan> >for a short time
[12:51:47] <boyd> Not from the alcohol... I mean from that freakin awful passion crap
[12:52:31] <WickedWicky> it could be worse.. they could be drinking dr. pepper
[12:52:37] <boyd> God no!
[12:56:29] <edwardocallaghan> lol
[12:56:44] <edwardocallaghan> no no, passion pop is pritty bad man
[12:56:57] <WickedWicky> or to make it worse... drink passion pop while listening to Britney spears
[12:57:02] <WickedWicky> how would that be for a sucky day?
[12:57:20] <WickedWicky> yeah? I honestly never heard of passion pop or would know how it tastes
[12:58:03] <Tempt> Passion Pop = $2/bottle sparkling alco-slop
[12:58:10] <Tempt> targetted at the underage market
[12:58:24] <WickedWicky> like Bacardi Breezer?
[12:58:31] <edwardocallaghan> oh god no
[12:58:34] <WickedWicky> worse?
[12:58:36] <WickedWicky> *gasp*
[12:58:56] <edwardocallaghan> alco-pops
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[13:07:20] * lloy0076 hmmm
[13:07:23] <edwardocallaghan> Has anyone considered porting opensolaris to Openmoko phone ?
[13:07:59] <lloy0076> Would a Quad Core at 2.4Ghz with a 1066 FSB be worth it (at $175 more) or a Dual Core at 2.66Ghz with a 1333 FSB...
[13:09:04] <edwardocallaghan> whats it for, and who makes the MB ?
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[13:11:30] <lloy0076> Gigabyte and it's for little old me.
[13:11:41] <lloy0076> I suspect a Dual Core 266 would be the go.
[13:13:31] <coffman> lloy0076: well, if your apps like memory, give it the dual core
[13:13:56] <coffman> intel quad cores suck
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[13:16:52] <lloy0076> They suck?
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[13:17:24] <lloy0076> I generally run Netbeans, Eclipse, Sun Java System Application Server, JBoss, Firefox with flash running and Gaim.
[13:17:36] <lloy0076> (so I don't need a dual core at all, but let's not go there :P)
[13:18:19] <Chipdancer> palowoda: no, not yet (re: MythTV/Solaris) and from what the developers say about it, it'd be hell to do so
[13:18:38] <Chipdancer> palowoda: I'm planning on trying to get PCI passthrough of the DVB cards and run MythTV backend in a domU and see how that goes
[13:19:47] <Chipdancer> palowoda: I got jmcp very interested in MythTV/Solaris a few years ago and he started down that path but became too busy and ended up putting it aside
[13:19:50] <edwardocallaghan> I would say the AMD is the go
[13:19:59] <edwardocallaghan> They just seem quicker
[13:20:32] <coffman> lloy0076: well, fronsidebus is what intel still uses for memory. sucks bad for multicore
[13:20:34] <edwardocallaghan> I would also think a tyan MB would be better money spent
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[13:21:46] <edwardocallaghan> Just get a low end AMD CPU dual core with a Tyan MB and a load of RAM
[13:22:07] <edwardocallaghan> x86 spend 60% of there clock sitting there anyways
[13:22:55] <lloy0076> My other alternative is an M2N-E-SLI with an AMD X2 6000+.
[13:23:09] <lloy0076> I would have had one of them if I hadn't damaged the M2N-E-SLI m/b I blew up
[13:24:21] <lloy0076> Realistically, either option for what I generally do is overkill.
[13:24:44] <coffman> well, dual core intel is not to bad, and you need to hold in mind that on opensolaris dynamic clocking of multi core cpus will be first suported on intel...
[13:24:57] <lloy0076> Dynamic clocking?
[13:25:06] <coffman> lloy0076: speed step
[13:25:36] <lloy0076> Not being one to over/under clock I get confused by this parlance.
[13:25:56] <coffman> lloy0076: its not about over clocking
[13:26:15] <lloy0076> I just stick my CPU(s) in and hope I don't short the m/b out. LMAO@me.
[13:26:49] <coffman> lloy0076: its like the clocking on laptops, saves power
[13:26:57] <lloy0076> Ah.
[13:27:09] <lloy0076> How come on Intel first? I thought Sun was in bed with AMD.
[13:27:30] <lloy0076> Or is this more of a chip capability thing.
[13:27:33] <WickedWicky> this is 2007, monogamy is so overrated
[13:27:58] <g4lt-mordant> lloy0076, th only chip manufacturer that sun is "in bed with" is fujitsu
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[13:28:36] * lloy0076 hmmm
[13:29:04] <lloy0076> Well, it seems that if I think I can give an Intel Core 2 Quad Core (RSN - Registered Stupid Name) enough to do, it's probably a good go.
[13:29:21] <lloy0076> But a 1333 Core 2 Duo would probably be better fo what I do.
[13:29:24] <edwardocallaghan> Sun and Intel made a deal back in the first part of this year
[13:29:30] <lloy0076> And an AMD X2 6000+ solution is probably the best.
[13:29:52] <coffman> its about the whole TSC issue, older amd dualcores will never work with dynamic stepping...
[13:30:08] <coffman> seems to be easier on intel...
[13:30:12] <edwardocallaghan> What about a low end Ultra Workstation and just spec it up yourself ?
[13:30:13] <g4lt-mordant> edwardocallaghan, and until I se a sparc t coming out of portland, i doubt that sun really cares much for the dal
[13:30:17] * quasi is waiting for amd quads
[13:30:21] <lloy0076> But will a Intel 6600 Quad Core (now) support it?'
[13:30:24] * g4lt-mordant beats edwardocallaghan
[13:30:28] <Chipdancer> lloy0076: support what?
[13:30:31] <lloy0076> edwardocallaghan: I'm talking about something affordable.
[13:30:36] <lloy0076> This stepping thing.
[13:30:50] <g4lt-mordant> THE ULTRA LINE IS SPARCIIi
[13:30:55] <edwardocallaghan> no
[13:31:06] <edwardocallaghan> Ultra 20 and 40s are x64
[13:31:20] <edwardocallaghan> and 25 and 45 are sparc
[13:31:25] <lloy0076> I have everything except the m/b and CPU (I have 4 Gib of memory, SataII hard drives, DVD, power supply, case...)
[13:31:26] <g4lt-mordant> the ultra 20/40 are abominations
[13:31:27] <coffman> if you head for amds, buy 65nm or less
[13:31:52] <lloy0076> I'm on the lookout for another m/b and CPU because I blew up my other one.
[13:32:21] <g4lt-mordant> in case nobody noticed, marketing polluted the ultra namespace, there already was a ultra 20
[13:32:52] <lloy0076> lol@ g4lt-mordant
[13:33:00] * g4lt-mordant STR it was a sparc64
[13:33:00] <lloy0076> g4lt-mordant: At least they didn't call it the JAVA WORK STATION
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[13:33:16] <lloy0076> lol @ the JDS.
[13:33:31] <coffman> there was a java work station...
[13:33:41] <g4lt-mordant> lloy0076, you rally DO want me to go foo tonight, don't you ;P
[13:33:45] <lloy0076> coffman: I know.
[13:34:05] <g4lt-mordant> hey, the krupps rocked
[13:34:09] <boyd> g4lt-mordant: What was sparc64?
[13:34:24] <lloy0076> Is the sparc architecture dead or dying?
[13:34:32] <g4lt-mordant> boyd, wasn't the original U20 a fuji chip?
[13:34:54] <boyd> original being when?
[13:34:55] <Tempt> Ultra 20 is opteron.
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[13:35:13] <Tempt> Started that way, stayed that way.
[13:35:15] <g4lt-mordant> boyd, being about the time of the U10 and U30
[13:35:36] <g4lt-mordant> or was it a U40 I'm thinking of
[13:36:15] <Tempt> the 40 came out as an Opteron as well
[13:36:20] <boyd> I recall nothing like that, but that's nearly before my time working with Sun kit
[13:36:26] <Tempt> There wasn't a 20 or 40 in the days of the 5/10/30/60/80
[13:36:48] <boyd> the U20 & U40 are now opteron, the U25 & 45 are USIII<something>
[13:37:56] <edwardocallaghan> when are they going to upgrade them U25,U45s to like U45M2s or somthing
[13:38:32] <coffman> m2 are the nvidia chipset upgrades
[13:38:45] <edwardocallaghan> I _still_ think it would be good for a cheap T1/2 based _workstation_ to come out that dev can spec up them selfs to can more things on SPARC
[13:38:48] <Auralis> the u20 was a system for OEMs, some of the sparcenginelines
[13:39:04] <edwardocallaghan> more like a dev hardware kit for Ultra T2 or the likes
[13:39:32] <Tempt> edwardocallaghan: It's not a workstation chip
[13:39:43] <Tempt> there are sparc workstations which will be better as a workstation.
[13:39:57] <Tempt> nobody in their right mind would buy a t1 workstation.
[13:40:12] <edwardocallaghan> I must say I used a U20 once and it was so fast ! Don't know how they make them MB but its are much better then anyting I built with even Tyans
[13:40:26] <Tempt> Actually, they use a Tyan.
[13:40:37] <Chipdancer> Tempt: really?  SUN use Tyan?
[13:40:37] <coffman> tadpole is doing a T1 laptop....
[13:40:43] <edwardocallaghan> thats why I said _workstation_
[13:40:46] <boyd> Yeah the U20 is a Tyan MB
[13:40:50] <edwardocallaghan> really?
[13:40:57] <edwardocallaghan> and really?
[13:41:16] <Auralis> a t2 based workstation would be pretty nifty for multithread apps
[13:41:19] <coffman> the first opteron servers where tyan barebones
[13:41:20] <edwardocallaghan> then again, last Tyan I got was for a wintel
[13:41:37] <g4lt-mordant> coffman, no wai!  you're joking about the coolthreads laptop?
[13:41:40] <Chipdancer> my latest machine is a Tyan with a Q6600
[13:42:00] <edwardocallaghan> A t2 type workstation would be good for people who are porting to the chip and working things out with it
[13:42:01] <boyd> Ok, I'm back off to real life... enjoy, y'all
[13:42:10] <g4lt-mordant> that's just cruel
[13:42:10] <sickness> I remember the w1100z being some sort of amd reference chipset, but very fast and very stable, I really liked that, It's a shame that no other motherboard makers build amd 8xxx chipset mobos at the time, only crappy via/sis/nvidia :/ (at that time, there were no solaris drivers for nvidia chipsets and lan and so on)
[13:42:11] <Tempt> have fun
[13:43:35] <coffman> g4lt-mordant: i dont think so
[13:44:18] <g4lt-mordant> okay, it's official, catbert runs tadpole.  playing with us like that :(
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[13:44:35] <coffman> there where plently of 8xxx chipsets, its a shame that amd did not build any others with pci-e and so
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[13:44:39] <edwardocallaghan> boyd:take care, and have a good night
[13:44:47] <sickness> who is catbert? a coworker of dilbert and ratbert? :P
[13:44:51] * g4lt-mordant wonders what he soul mortgage market is like lateely
[13:44:54] <edwardocallaghan> god i drunk too much tonight :p
[13:45:05] <g4lt-mordant> sickness, you really ned to read more dilbert
[13:45:10] <sickness> g4lt-mordant: oh
[13:45:12] <edwardocallaghan> were is this T1 laptop you lads are talking about
[13:45:25] <edwardocallaghan> I had a look on Tadpole and can't find her?
[13:45:26] <sickness> g4lt-mordant: yeah, I'd like to read more, I just don't find it so often in magazines and so on...
[13:46:05] <g4lt-mordant> edwardocallaghan, coffman meant that it was in the works
[13:46:14] <sickness> edwardocallaghan: c'mon, even if it was there, it would cost like 20.000$, would you really like suffer from seeing it? :P
[13:46:56] <edwardocallaghan> Who _really_ buys them at that price ?
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[13:47:12] <edwardocallaghan> Can they not sell them at _normal_ prices ?
[13:47:35] <edwardocallaghan> and yes, i like to see these jokes
[13:47:42] <Chipdancer> w00t! :)
[13:47:42] <Chipdancer>         NAME        STATE     READ WRITE CKSUM
[13:47:42] <Chipdancer>         rootpool    ONLINE       0     0     0
[13:47:43] <Chipdancer>           mirror    ONLINE       0     0     0
[13:47:43] <Chipdancer>             c1d0s0  ONLINE       0     0     0
[13:47:43] <Chipdancer>             c2d0s0  ONLINE       0     0     0
[13:47:51] <Chipdancer> oh, and --  scrub: resilver in progress, 2.13% done, 0h6m to go
[13:48:00] <sickness> edwardocallaghan: eheh, me too, after all :P
[13:48:21] <g4lt-mordant> that IS a normal price for a sparcbook.  the SB100 wasn't called the grover because it was in thre digits
[13:49:30] <Auralis> actually it was called grover because it was, 999 bucks
[13:49:58] <edwardocallaghan> thats damm cheap
[13:50:00] <edwardocallaghan> link ?
[13:50:40] <sickness> what does it means "grover"? I only know that think to put between screw head and hole...
[13:50:49] <sickness> s/thing/think/
[13:51:00] <WickedWicky> grover is how we call the blue monster from sesamestreet (not cookie monster)
[13:51:05] <g4lt-mordant> sickness, grover == grover cleveland, the face on the thousand dollar bill
[13:51:07] <Auralis> no link, the sb100 is long EOLed
[13:51:17] <Chipdancer>  scrub: resilver completed with 0 errors on Sat Aug 11 21:50:09 2007
[13:51:19] <sickness> k tnx :)
[13:51:32] <Chipdancer> that was extremely fast :)
[13:51:43] <g4lt-mordant> Auralis, taht was also the better part of a decade ago....
[13:52:05] <WickedWicky> I love the 90s... I was still  young and innocent
[13:52:10] <sickness> off to lunch
[13:52:14] <Auralis> yes, back when a 64bit machien still costed megabucks
[13:52:15] <WickedWicky> eat well!
[13:52:42] <g4lt-mordant> http://library.thinkquest.org/TQ0312172/numis.html
[13:53:05] <g4lt-mordant> oh, BTW, about that decade-old machine.....
[13:53:14] <g4lt-mordant> SunOS andrea-doria 5.11 snv_55b sun4u sparc SUNW,Sun-Blade-100
[13:54:01] <g4lt-mordant> my type5 took a drink of water, so my U60 is OOC for a bit
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[13:57:34] <edwardocallaghan> SB2Ks are kind of moblie
[13:57:56] <edwardocallaghan> Just keep up all that good gym work :D
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[14:02:36] <edwardocallaghan> what happend to Polaris ?
[14:04:02] <g4lt-mordant> it's a zombi ATM, not quite dead, but not really alive.  sun killled it by not providing a code drop, and the community didn't really pick up the slack.  there's been some signs of life lately though
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[14:07:17] <Tempt> There's an RS/6000 in Melbourne for anyone seriously working on Polaris.
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[14:08:27] <g4lt-mordant> operative word: seriously, which has yet to be evidenced by anyone working on polaris, either from the community or Sun
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[14:11:20] <edwardocallaghan> oh dear
[14:11:37] <edwardocallaghan> As I am planing on doing, yes another distro
[14:11:43] <edwardocallaghan> But
[14:14:05] <g4lt-mordant> other distros for solaris are cool, SUPPORTED distros are better though, as schillix is effectively dead, and nextenta is diverging from the main tree to quicly for utility
[14:14:06] <edwardocallaghan> For the PS3 and Cell and would like to use the SunOS kernel but it looks like I am going to have to use Linux
[14:14:06] <edwardocallaghan> Unless someonce can help me with porting Polaris
[14:15:03] <edwardocallaghan> yes
[14:16:06] <g4lt-mordant> my advice is unless you see yourself following up three yars from now, don't bother.  otherwise, rock on
[14:16:06] <edwardocallaghan> well, I _would_ do it with the SunOS kernel _if_ i can get some help from someone to help me bootstrap it on Cell
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[14:22:11] <edwardocallaghan> yes I know what you mean
[14:22:14] <edwardocallaghan> yes i do
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[14:35:52] <Shinden> how to restart service on opensolaris  example sshd ? invoke-rc.d dosnt work
[14:35:55] <Shinden> :D
[14:36:11] <tomww> svcadm restart ssh
[14:36:18] <Shinden> thx :}
[14:36:35] <tomww> :-)
[14:36:46] <Shinden> so hard 4 linux user ;p
[14:37:35] <tomww> yes, even for users who have upgraded to s10/nevada
[14:38:09] <edwardocallaghan> ok, better go
[14:38:10] <tomww> probably you'll love it after some use
[14:38:15] <edwardocallaghan> laters people
[14:38:21] <Shinden> nextenta is ok
[14:38:21] <Shinden> ;]
[14:38:27] <Shinden>  almost like debian ~~
[14:38:53] <Stric> might be because it's mostly debian, but with opensolaris kernel and some apps ;)
[14:39:05] <tomww> depends on what you're looking for. I look for a platform stable+binary compatible to what enterprise solaris users use since long
[14:39:22] <coffman> who needs cell and P3 ? they suck anyways low memory sucky cpu
[14:39:39] <tomww> so for each case there is some customized distro
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[14:42:06] <Shinden> y i learning now os11 and i waiting 4 delivery s10 ;]
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[15:21:06] <asyd> pfff, i lost my +o! :p
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[15:24:53] <WickedWicky> I am seriously starting to lose my sense of humour with JDS while my system is compiling something
[15:25:27] <WickedWicky> it doesnt really help when you try to unlock your screen and the screensaver interprets an a as aaaaa or just ignores your input
[15:25:38] <Shinden> do ya know when will be iso od snv_70 ?
[15:25:50] <WickedWicky> I heard next week or so
[15:26:21] <Shinden> ok then i dl 69 and burn it on dvd rw ;p
[15:26:29] <WickedWicky> that's what I do
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[15:27:10] <Shinden> [;
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[15:42:02] <kaiwai> hi :)
[15:42:19] <WickedWicky> kaiwai!
[15:42:20] <kaiwai> I've compiled gcc 4.2.1, but it complains it can't find libc++6
[15:42:47] <kaiwai> I want it to find it automatically without needing to use the ugly LD_LIBRARY_PATH hack
[15:43:16] <asyd> the error is at linking?
[15:43:26] <kaiwai> not too sure, it installs without any errors
[15:43:37] <kaiwai> its when i try to compile qt it complains about not being able to find that file
[15:43:46] <kaiwai> bit it is in /usr/local/lib
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[15:50:03] <kaiwai> anyone know how to correct that solaris issue relating to gcc?
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[15:51:10] <WickedWicky> try CFLAGS="-L/usr/local/lib"; export CFLAGS
[15:51:15] <WickedWicky> before running ./configure
[15:52:32] <kaiwai> thats already done, under LDFLAGS
[15:53:05] <asyd> kaiwai: what give ldd gcc-4.2.1 ?
[15:55:39] <kaiwai> gotta recompile it
[15:55:42] <kaiwai> hang on
[15:55:51] <kaiwai> got pissed off last night and deleted it
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[15:56:16] <asyd> hello jamesd
[15:56:37] <jamesd> hi ducky
[15:57:17] <WickedWicky> when my nightly stops, let's say cause I press ctrl+c in a stupid moment.. is there a way to tell nightly to restart or will it just start compiling all over again?
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[15:59:28] <WickedWicky> I was guessing adding -i , am I right?
[15:59:51] <asyd> btw, is there a particular reason that most of people upgrade from source rather than wit ON-prebuilt? I can understand for who people who edit/hack the source
[16:00:05] <WickedWicky> asyd: I like the torture
[16:00:14] <asyd> :)
[16:00:32] <WickedWicky> and I am impatient
[16:00:44] <asyd> hmm it's very fast to upgrade wiith prebuild
[16:01:08] <WickedWicky> you mean the prebuild bfu images?
[16:01:45] <asyd> yup
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[16:02:02] <WickedWicky> there is no fun in that... if I did that i wouldnt have the glorious experience of having a machine acting so stupidlu unstable when compiled with SS12 till the point you get the nv69 and reinstall
[16:02:20] <asyd> ahah
[16:02:24] <WickedWicky> but you have a point ;-)
[16:02:31] <asyd> well, just was a thought
[16:02:53] <WickedWicky> and a valid one. I dunno, I like to mess around...
[16:03:56] <WickedWicky> I was serious about the unstability with SS12 though
[16:04:07] <asyd> ah
[16:04:12] <WickedWicky> random crashes out of no were with kernel panics regarding memory heap corruption
[16:04:30] <WickedWicky> then you reinstall, do the exact same actions as you did during the crashes and it's unreproducable
[16:04:48] <WickedWicky> so now I am trying the recomended SS11 + patches
[16:05:48] <WickedWicky> I'm gonna make a caipirinha
[16:05:50] <WickedWicky> be right back
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[16:11:30] <asyd> !!!!
[16:11:34] <asyd> WickedWicky: give me some :p
[16:12:13] * WickedWicky makes you one
[16:12:28] <asyd> thanks :)
[16:12:43] <WickedWicky> de nada!
[16:13:48] <WickedWicky> question about the topic though
[16:13:56] <WickedWicky> it says latest ON 70
[16:14:31] <WickedWicky> yet the opensolaris download center mentions the exact same consolidation (20070730) as last week when the latest ON was 69
[16:14:40] <WickedWicky> how's that?
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[16:58:36] <asdasda> #ceviz
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[17:03:03] <kimc> is it possible to create more than 1 iscsi disk space within a single zpool ?
[17:03:19] <kimc> soo.. if i said
[17:03:29] <kimc> zpool create zspace c2t0d0
[17:03:39] <kimc> zfs create zspace/zfs_iscsi
[17:03:58] <kimc> zfs create -V 1500g zspace/zfs_iscsi/v100g
[17:04:12] <kimc> zfs create -V 1500g zspace/zfs_iscsi/v200g
[17:04:21] <kimc> err i mean
[17:04:43] <kimc> zfs create -V 100g zspace/zfs_iscsi/v100g
[17:04:53] <kimc> zfs create -V 200g zspace/zfs_iscsi/v200g
[17:05:51] <kimc> as long as the iscsi's dont exceed the total space within c2t0d0 ?
[17:07:06] <Stric> you can create multiple volumes, yes.. no idea how the iscsi thing is handled though.. why not just try it out? :)
[17:07:49] <kimc> sure i'll give it a shot..
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[17:08:22] <kimc> wonder what iscsi commands could be used to get read on how much space is left in the pol ?
[17:08:26] <kimc> pool ?
[17:08:47] <Stric> when you create a volume thingie, that space is automatically allocated from the pool
[17:08:54] <kimc> right
[17:09:41] <Stric> iscsi won't be able to know how much space there's left in the pool.. and doesn't need to know either, it will be able to use the space (100g vs 200g) that it has been given
[17:10:50] <kimc> sure but what if i want know how much is left so i can make use of more of the available space
[17:11:09] <kimc> looks like maybe: zfs list
[17:11:16] <Stric> when you create the volume, you carve out that much disk space from the pool
[17:11:46] <kimc> i know you can just keep track of how much you've allocated.. i'd like to get a reading on it
[17:11:54] <Stric> if you want to know how much you've got left in the pool, check zpool list
[17:12:25] <kimc> zpool list
[17:12:26] <kimc> NAME                    SIZE    USED   AVAIL    CAP  HEALTH     ALTROOT
[17:12:26] <kimc> zspace                 1.81T   1.48T    338G    81%  ONLINE     -
[17:12:36] <kimc> thanks
[17:12:55] <kimc> this is exactly what i needed )
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[17:15:10] <Stric> although that volume reservation isn't deducted when I try it.. hm.
[17:15:39] <Stric> http://pastebin.ca/653554
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[17:21:17] <Stric> ah, the space isn't actually used.. so it's not reported as used..
[17:21:43] <Stric> if you just create an empty new zfs fs and see how much you can store there, that's how much space you've got that is free and not reserved
[17:23:50] <Stric> http://pastebin.ca/653562
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[18:07:42] <tomww> 
[18:12:01] <kimc> stric: thanks for that.. i'm going to create some additional space now.. lets see here..
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[18:26:57] <richlowe> zfs tends to confuse things that assume space is per-fs
[18:27:01] <richlowe> I'd suspect advfs had the same issue.
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[18:34:06] <asyd> for fun, do you know if solaris works on xserve ? :p
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[18:35:47] <WickedWicky> asyd: can I ask you a quick question?
[18:35:57] <asyd> sre
[18:36:14] * asyd is wondering what you can ask to me, poor of me
[18:36:17] <WickedWicky> I just did a checkout of the mercurial repository for onnv
[18:36:28] <WickedWicky> and i see the latest tag being onnv_71
[18:36:33] <WickedWicky> is this correct?
[18:37:09] <WickedWicky> I could ask for a quarter of a milion pounds but that'd be a question in vain I guess
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[18:38:09] <asyd> well, it's a tag or a branch? I don't know git mercurial at all, but it could be a branch rather a tag
[18:38:12] <WickedWicky> is onnv_70 the latest closed tag and is everybody currently working and updating the onnv_71 tag or am I confused?
[18:38:32] <WickedWicky> it shows under 'hg tag'
[18:38:52] <WickedWicky> tip                             4851:5e98cf4c2164
[18:38:52] <WickedWicky> onnv_71                         4814:57cc010c0779
[18:38:52] <WickedWicky> onnv_70                         4709:dc10a713d1a0
[18:38:54] <WickedWicky> .. etc
[18:39:35] <asyd> i prefer answer nothing rather something stupid/wrong
[18:40:08] <WickedWicky> it all looks a bit messed up to me to be honest, the tar files on the download section of ON show 20070730 as consolidation date, which is exactly the same consolidation date as was shown when the topic here showed ON 69 being as current
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[18:40:56] <WickedWicky> mja, I'll see
[18:42:12] <WickedWicky> maybe onnv_70 is the latest closed thingy in the mercurial repository and is onnv_71 what people are working on and commiting on
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[18:42:25] <WickedWicky> commiting to
[18:42:38] <richlowe> No.
[18:42:43] <richlowe> onnv_71 is the latest closed thing.
[18:42:44] <WickedWicky> ah! my savior!
[18:42:47] <richlowe> the build is closed, but not delivered to RE
[18:42:57] <richlowe> the source drops don't appear until the build delivers to Sun's RE folks.
[18:43:02] <richlowe> (to make sure it precisely matches what does...)
[18:43:15] <richlowe> the tags in the Hg repository tag the gate closing.
[18:43:38] <WickedWicky> so if I want really bleeding edge I should always checkout the latest tag?
[18:43:51] <WickedWicky> and be prepared for server brickifying
[18:44:02] <asyd> richlowe: you're the one who works at solaris quality (building regression etc), aren't it?
[18:45:03] <jbk> well if you use zfs root, your brickifying risk should be minimal
[18:45:27] <jbk> just clone /, install bleeding edge to clone, boot off clone, if it dies, boot off original
[18:46:33] <WickedWicky> hey, that's a good tip
[18:46:34] <WickedWicky> thanks
[18:47:00] <jbk> however, it's slightly less user-friendly to setup
[18:47:22] <jbk> no nice gui to click through at the moment (at least last i checked)
[18:47:25] <richlowe> the very bleeding edge would be the tip.
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[18:48:18] <jbk> i tried it with a nightly build a while ago, even without any lu tools -- just doing the pieces manually (which really aren't too bad), and it worked flawlessly...
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[18:49:00] <kaiwai> hi :)
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[18:49:14] <kaiwai> anyone had success compiling GCC 4.2.1?
[18:49:27] <richlowe> dclarke tried, I think.
[18:49:33] <richlowe> no clue if he succeeded.
[18:49:36] <kaiwai> hmm, I keep having it fail :(
[18:50:44] <kaiwai> followed the instructions from sunfreeware.com too :(
[18:51:11] <WickedWicky> richlowe, and when you look at http://opensolaris.org/os/community/on/onnv_schedule.txt
[18:51:23] <WickedWicky> how do I "map" the consolidation date to the onnv release?
[18:52:04] <WickedWicky> the "delivered to WOS" colomn is what's shown on the download page?, in example, the consolidation date mentioned at the moment on the download page is 20070730, so thats onnv70?
[18:52:07] <kaiwai> next week for sxce apparently
[18:52:10] <richlowe> the tags happen on the date in the 2nd column, the source release just after the date in the second.
[18:52:27] <richlowe> also, onnv_70 is a *really* bad build to try and figure this out from.
[18:52:35] <richlowe> it was an SX:DE candidate, and they tend to be respun several times.
[18:52:43] <richlowe> and almost never actually go to RE on the date in the second column.
[18:52:52] <richlowe> (I think 70 was only a week and a bit afterward, but that's heresay)
[18:53:23] <WickedWicky> okay, I think that explains it a bit for me :)
[18:53:26] <WickedWicky> thanks a lot :D
[18:54:00] <richlowe> and the build snapshots happen whenever a build is done and goes to RE. :)
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[18:55:57] <kimc> is there any way to set the iSCSI Name for a target rather than let the system create the name ?
[18:56:40] <kimc> put something in the name to identify it, instead of: iqn.1986-03.com.sun:02:c845b7ab-f351-40a6-991a-c025750342f2
[18:57:22] <kimc> like: iqn.1986-03.com.sun:02:c845b7ab-f351-40a6-991a-300_gb_part
[18:59:05] <g4lt-mordant> did I just waste the utility of zfs?  I wanted to make /export/home a zpool so I have the expansion to play with on a fresh install, I allocated the slice, but put nothing mounting on it, zpool create gave me an error saying there was alrady a ufs filesystem, use -f to force, so I did.  does that mean I'm doing zfs-on-ufs?  or did the ufs die?
[18:59:35] <WickedWicky> ufs got destroyed
[19:00:03] <g4lt-mordant> cool, that's what I wanted
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[19:00:18] <CIA-17> mlf: 6414472 x86-ata: lockup in ata_id_common(), when using shared pci interrupts, 6461847 ata driver emits console message: ata_id_common: BUSY status 0xfe, 6536722 ata interrupt sharing can panic, 6570357 ata_probe() takes excessively long in Nevada HVM domains
[19:00:49] <richlowe> I still prefer one big pool, and mounts of it, than creating a pool for certain things.
[19:01:16] <richlowe> set mountpoint=/export/home for one of the fs's in it, etc.
[19:01:20] <WickedWicky> I have one big pool and create several zfs file systems
[19:01:34] <richlowe> exactly. :)
[19:01:47] <richlowe> just responding to "make /export/home a zpool" in g4lt's bit.
[19:02:04] <g4lt-mordant> so I shouldn't have made two slices, one for opt and on for export/home?
[19:02:36] <g4lt-mordant> that sounded like more complexity thatn I wanted, but, I live, I learn
[19:02:57] <WickedWicky> you create a slice which you want to allocate to zfs
[19:03:08] <WickedWicky> so, /dev/dsk/c0t0d0s3 is mounten on /opt
[19:03:15] <jamesd_> g4lt-mordant,  zfs create  poolname/home  ; zfs create  poolname/opt  ;   zfs set mountpoint=/export/home poolname/home ; zfs set mountpoint=/opt  poolname/opt
[19:03:43] <WickedWicky> then you have a /dev/dsk/c0t0d0d4 (unused) on which you can do: zpool create your_pool_name /dev/dsk/c0t0d0s4
[19:04:14] <WickedWicky> then when you have your pool: zfs create -o mountpoint=/export/home your_pool_name/home
[19:04:17] <WickedWicky> as an example
[19:04:24] <kaiwai> interesting, hoover is a poof
[19:04:31] <g4lt-mordant> WickedWicky, I did about that, except I passed -m to avoid having to set mountpoint
[19:04:47] <WickedWicky> then you're all good, I guess
[19:05:18] <kaiwai> fuck if
[19:05:21] <kaiwai> damn thing
[19:05:29] <WickedWicky> having a blast, kaiwai ?
[19:05:42] <kaiwai> oh definately
[19:05:52] <kaiwai> I hate computers - thank god I don't work in the field
[19:06:05] <richlowe> defin*i*tely
[19:06:16] <richlowe> (pet peave)
[19:07:56] <WickedWicky> kaiwai: I am seriously considering blaming having built the onnv source with Sun Pro 12 as my cause of the kernel panics
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[19:08:33] <WickedWicky> I reinstalled Nevada 69, do exactly the same things as I did when the box paniced at random (compiling stuff) and it's running rock solid
[19:08:50] <WickedWicky> so now I am compiling the source with Sun Pro 11, and will see what happens
[19:09:05] <e^ipi> i wasn't aware that ON built at all with studio12
[19:09:28] <WickedWicky> it does when you add __SSNEXT=""; export __SSNEXT in your environmental file
[19:09:48] <WickedWicky> but serious, I might act like a clown at times in this channel, believe me at least on this one: it will break stuff
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[19:10:21] <Tempt> richlowe: Feed your pet peave
[19:10:32] <Tempt> richlowe: It'll grow up to be a big, strong peave
[19:10:41] <WickedWicky> roar
[19:10:44] <WickedWicky> hellows Tempt
[19:10:46] <Tempt> richlowe: Unless it turns into a peeve.
[19:10:57] <Tempt> Anyway, for the .au audience: http://www.australianit.news.com.au/story/0,24897,22218715-15306,00.html
[19:11:10] <Tempt> WickedWicky: Howdy.
[19:11:34] <jbk> richlowe: well I've got the none/all synthetic instruction/compatible output feature working (via env variable)
[19:11:41] <jbk> just need to do the other little bits
[19:12:23] <g4lt-mordant> anyone stupid like me and attempt to install on a toshiba satellite 1955?
[19:12:36] <g4lt-mordant> the audio no wanna go :(
[19:12:51] <WickedWicky> tried to install oss 4.0? worked for my HP laptop with hdaudio
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[19:13:52] <g4lt-mordant> not yet, where did you get that?
[19:13:59] <WickedWicky> www.opensound.org
[19:14:04] <richlowe> Tempt: heh. :)
[19:14:12] <g4lt-mordant> thanks
[19:17:10] <kaiwai> interesting, Xft headers aren't available in b69
[19:17:22] <richlowe> I think they are.
[19:17:39] <kaiwai> nope, link points to a directory that doesn't exist
[19:17:47] <WickedWicky> I am sure they are
[19:17:54] <kaiwai> nope, they're not there
[19:18:18] <WickedWicky> ah no
[19:18:20] <WickedWicky> the libs are
[19:18:23] <WickedWicky> include files arent
[19:18:58] <g4lt-mordant> WickedWicky, well, that makes it all right then ;P
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[19:21:20] <WickedWicky> kaiwai: when I look with pkginfo | grep -i xft
[19:21:31] <WickedWicky> I see only the Library package being installed
[19:21:36] <WickedWicky> SUNWxwxft
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[19:45:44] <dg1> Hi Guys, anyone have problems with losing audio in the latest Developer express version of Solaris
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[19:49:47] <millhouse513> hey
[19:55:00] <e^ipi> i hate canada post, but one thing I will concede to their courier service (  purolator ) is that they can at least keep a valid set of location scans on their tracking website
[19:55:07] <e^ipi> which fedex can't seem to accomplish
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[19:55:27] <richlowe> I think fedex's are valid, just delayed.
[19:55:29] <richlowe> and often confusing.
[19:55:50] <richlowe> except in the case of whatever boyd had delivered via Austria because someone couldn't read.
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[19:56:58] <e^ipi> with fedex, i'll order something, it'll arrive & the tracking still says it's in california or w/e
[19:57:13] <nachox> hey people
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[19:57:40] <e^ipi> which is just completely wrong, since it will have had to pass through vancouver sort, my local sort, go on a truck, and then get delivered
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[19:59:30] <richlowe> e^ipi: hrm, it's only screwed up toward the end of the list, for me.
[19:59:46] <richlowe> I've missed deliveries because the tracking still said the thing was one state over, when, apparently, fedex were conspicuously not knocking on my door.
[19:59:50] <richlowe> (the bastards)
[20:00:02] <richlowe> when did 'delivery' mean, "park outside, lay on the horn for 3 seconds, then drive off"?
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[20:01:38] <e^ipi> heh
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[20:07:12] <Shinden> streamers works ok on solaris/opensolaris ?
[20:08:06] <nachox> streamers?
[20:08:37] <oxygene> richlowe: when they outsourced delivery to the lowest bidder
[20:08:40] <Shinden> A tape drive, also known as a streamer.
[20:08:55] <oxygene> Shinden: if they're not atapi, yes
[20:09:18] <Shinden> scsi streamer
[20:09:52] <oxygene> richlowe: german postal service started outsourcing several years ago - since then, it happened once or twice that a contractor simply dumped the mail in the next lake
[20:10:05] <millhouse513> oxygene:  wow
[20:10:25] <millhouse513> Shinden:  not to ask a newbie question, but why are tape drives called "streamers"?
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[20:10:56] <oxygene> millhouse513: they take/send a data stream (compared to block devices with random access modes)
[20:11:04] <millhouse513> makes sense..
[20:11:06] <Shinden> millhouse513: dunno ;]
[20:11:09] <Shinden> y
[20:11:15] <tigerstein> I run SXCE 69 and when I want to run VLC from blastwave I got the following error: http://pastebin.com/m42e17e32
[20:11:23] <millhouse513> i'm from the linux world mostly..  Solaris/OpenSolaris are on the "map" at my work for storage reasons
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[20:13:09] <Shinden> millhouse513: try windows 2003 server
[20:13:09] <Shinden> ;p
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[20:14:17] <millhouse513> Shinden:  isn't that one of those comments that sends you straight to hell?
[20:14:20] <nachox> millhouse513, maybe it is in the map because it's damn cool and hardly ever fails? :)
[20:14:41] <millhouse513> lol..  Yes and Yes..  I have no argument there:  I'm the reason why it's on the map ;-)
[20:15:28] <millhouse513> we looked at Linux/iscsi but one of the silent requirements is that our home-brewed solution had to be backed with support.  So, that meant RedHat was our only linux solution (for a few other political bs reasons too)
[20:16:01] <nachox> no suse?
[20:16:08] <millhouse513> but it's got a nice limitation of 8TB (ext3) so that put Solaris/OpenSolaris + ZFS on the map..  I'm happy cause it gives me a reason to play with Solaris/OpenSolaris and ZFS
[20:16:22] <millhouse513> i tried to get Suse in but my boss hates novell so suse was out
[20:16:23] <millhouse513> :(
[20:16:33] <e^ipi> awesome, linker errors in mapfile-vers
[20:16:33] <nachox> also ubuntu has support but i'm not sure if it supports iscsi
[20:16:53] <e^ipi> that means stuff mostly compiles
[20:16:56] <millhouse513> it does, and we tested it, but it didn't seem to be as consistent with performance as redhat
[20:17:23] <millhouse513> sometimes ubuntu screamed and others it was sluggish..  iscsi isn't officially suppoted by ubuntu so that was a factor i'm sure
[20:17:30] <nachox> e^ipi, missing functions?
[20:17:42] <e^ipi> nachox, missing private functions
[20:17:45] <e^ipi> I don't need t hem
[20:17:47] <e^ipi> *them
[20:17:50] <nachox> if it is not officially supported then it is not what you need
[20:18:17] <millhouse513> yeah..  ubuntu though is probably going to be our de-facto linux-server standard though in most other general-use cases
[20:18:40] <e^ipi> nachox, nope, they're not supported at all
[20:18:54] <nachox> just use solaris
[20:19:07] <millhouse513> and ZFS answered the question of growth...  Some people (high-up guys) don't believe in throwing old data out, so we grow at a rate of 1+TB a month
[20:19:18] <millhouse513> i don't know it well enough to use everywhere ;-)
[20:19:33] <Shinden> millhouse513: take money from ur firm to soloaris coursers ;]
[20:19:38] <nachox> so? dont you like challenges?
[20:19:49] <millhouse513> i'm trying to find a reason to impliment OpenBSD on an sftp/encrypted FS...mostly so I can play with OpenBSD :)
[20:20:02] <millhouse513> lol, I do...  thanks, guilt-trip me into solaris
[20:20:17] <jbk> millhouse513: use the money you'll save on support licenses (solaris support is cheaper than redhat) to pay for training if that's a concern :)
[20:20:20] <nachox> millhouse513, any time :P
[20:20:56] <nachox> that would depend on how many server he has, training is not cheap
[20:21:09] <e^ipi> solaris isn't hard
[20:21:10] <jbk> there's cbt's as well :)
[20:21:25] <Shinden> cbt is good 4 beginers :]
[20:21:41] <e^ipi> there's a couple differences, but i was using linux as a primary platform for about 7 or 8 years before I migrated to Sol.
[20:21:45] <millhouse513> actually i would like to get certified in solaris..  i'm hoping my company will pay or partial pay for it
[20:21:46] <jbk> but yeah, if you know linux, solaris isn't too difficult to pick up -- the biggest thing is just setting up your initial shell environemnt to something more sane
[20:21:51] <e^ipi> it only took me a couple weeks to grok it
[20:22:04] <nachox> i agree there
[20:22:07] <jbk> that seems to really be the biggest legitimate complaint I see
[20:22:23] <Shinden> millhouse513: why u dont wanna w2k3 + AD ? :D
[20:22:25] <nachox> ohh, and you have to forget about catting /proc
[20:22:38] <millhouse513> well, we're using that now
[20:23:02] <millhouse513> I was hired to be the "Linux guy/Storage guy"...  Trust me, I'm trying to get us off Windows as much as possible!
[20:23:06] <jbk> heh actually one of the things i want to work on after i'm done with the sparc disassembler is some stuff related to ldap + kerberos + pam
[20:23:13] <millhouse513> we tried using windows2003 as our file server...  But it just sucks
[20:23:20] <Shinden> aa
[20:23:22] <Shinden> ok ;]
[20:23:40] <jbk> i think if you could get a solution out there that you pkgadd; ./config-program; answer a few questions and stuff starts working.. it'd be a compelling solution
[20:23:40] <Shinden> burn all date to cd !! ;p u will be hard working all day
[20:23:43] <nachox> millhouse513, why doesnt that surprise me :P
[20:23:48] <Shinden> s/date/data
[20:23:55] <millhouse513> iscsi is a nice way to scale in storage and we've tested windows2003, solaris, and linux as initiators and windows just sucked
[20:24:23] <jbk> right now setting up either ldap or kerberos (or both) requires a lot of heavy lifting that doesn't need to be there..
[20:24:25] <millhouse513> one thing i'm trying to work on right now is performance of solaris/opensolaris, zfs, and iscsi
[20:24:42] <e^ipi> when I'm done libc i mostly just want to work on integrating KDE a little bit better ( writing RBAC role-control client in Qt and the likes ) unless I get distracted by something more interesting
[20:25:11] <nachox> jbk, setting an ldap server? client? with certificates? i think there are some osol projects related to that
[20:25:19] <jbk> nachox: yes and no
[20:25:37] <millhouse513> after i get this storage rolled out, i'd like to write a admin/monitoring app for it all..
[20:25:43] <jbk> there is some vaguely defined stuff 'well in the future we're maybe possibly thinking about simplifying the setup of an ldap client'
[20:25:47] <jbk> server config is still difficult
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[20:26:01] <jbk> and _still_ no one has some up with a true enterprise-level authorization system
[20:26:21] <Shinden> sun directory ?
[20:26:22] <jbk> netgroups, pam_access, or acls that filter out user accounts on the ldap server do not scale
[20:26:22] <jamesd__> lots of places use "vas"
[20:26:29] <jbk> vas?
[20:26:50] <nachox> e^ipi, are there any current kde builds packaged for solaris?
[20:26:53] <kaiwai> hmm, Novell eDirectory?
[20:27:08] <e^ipi> nachox, stefan's 3.4 builds
[20:27:11] <kaiwai> nachox: only for sparc :(
[20:27:14] <jamesd__> http://www.quest.com/Vintela-Authentication-Services/
[20:27:18] <nachox> that's not quite current
[20:27:27] <jbk> jamesd__: is you want to use AD
[20:27:29] <jbk> err if
[20:27:54] <jamesd__> jbk true.. its not what i want to use.. its what my employer uses....
[20:27:55] <jbk> and both of those cost money
[20:27:56] <e^ipi> no, it's not
[20:28:08] <millhouse513> i'd like to look into OpenAFS as an AD replacement
[20:28:13] <nachox> AD and vintella probably mean lots of cash
[20:28:22] <e^ipi> kde4's out in a bit, i'm more interested in that than the 3.x tree
[20:28:46] <jbk> i'm thinking opends + (don't cringe too much) a kerberos server plugin for opends + intelligent client setup program
[20:28:52] <nachox> there is alpha 1 already
[20:29:05] <kaiwai> nachox: don't you mean beta 1?
[20:29:15] <nachox> sorry, that :P
[20:29:26] <jbk> so again, the setup is basically pkgadd + run config program
[20:29:32] <nachox> jbk, i dont know why, but i dont trust java that much
[20:29:50] <jbk> *shrug* i have no issues with it
[20:30:33] <nachox> i have nothing to backup by disbelief, so dont ask :P i just dont
[20:30:57] <nachox> *my
[20:30:58] <jbk> ever hear the saying that you can write fortran in any language?
[20:31:12] <jbk> a corellary might be 'you can write crappy software in any language'
[20:31:30] <jbk> i think issues with earlier jvms + that probably don't help things
[20:31:43] <tigerstein> interesting as root I can run vlc
[20:31:50] <jbk> i've written decently, i've found java is fine
[20:32:38] <nachox> i'm used to seeing java written front ends in ibm appliances crash for unknown reasons
[20:33:39] <jbk> too many try { .. } catch (Exception e) { ; } perhaps :)
[20:35:35] <jbk> but that's 1 piece of a more ambitious project I have in my head :)
[20:35:46] <jbk> what I really want
[20:35:50] <jbk> along those same lines
[20:36:00] <jbk> is a sort of 'enterprise bundle'
[20:36:29] <jbk> with a few modules for things like that (ldap + ad), config/asset db, and mgmt system
[20:36:43] <jbk> that's easy to install
[20:36:50] <jbk> but that might be a bit more work :)
[20:37:14] <jbk> though in a lot of cases, the bits are there for a good foundation, just some glue and integration work
[20:37:20] <millhouse513> i gotta go...later all
[20:37:24] <jbk> i've used opsware, it's nice, but limiting
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[20:38:21] <jbk> i've used cfengine, nice, but not really suited for large companies (for what I'm thinking -- yes it can handle lots of systems, but there are unaddressed issues)
[20:38:46] <jbk> so that's probably what i'm gonna toy with next
[20:40:03] <bda> RHEL has thrown their weight behind Puppet.
[20:40:20] <kaiwai> Puppet?
[20:40:21] <nachox> why not extend/improve one of the tools you just mentioned?
[20:40:46] <bda> Supposedly the same deal as CVS vs. Subversion.
[20:40:51] <bda> Written in Ruby.
[20:40:56] <jbk> well i didn't say i was gonna reinvent the wheel necessairly
[20:40:58] <bda> I've not touched it.
[20:40:59] <jbk> i like puppet actually
[20:41:09] <jbk> from what i've read, haven't had a chance to use it
[20:41:35] <kaiwai> so yet another bloody thing re-inventing the wheel - wonderful
[20:41:42] <bda> ...
[20:41:43] <jbk> but it suffers from some of the same unaddressed issues as cfengine, however, i think it's better positioned to be extended (or supplemented)
[20:41:44] <bda> Are you stupid?
[20:41:47] <jbk> into what i want
[20:42:16] <nachox> bda, ?
[20:42:31] <bda> Sorry. Sometimes kaiwai says something and I forget to politely inquire why he said it.
[20:42:52] <kaiwai> dba: just reading what is on the puppet website
[20:43:00] <bda> Have you ever used cfengine?
[20:43:06] <jbk> i think it provides a better foundation than cfengine (and it doesn't appear to suffer from the domainname/identity nightmware cfengine does)
[20:43:13] <jbk> yes
[20:43:20] <bda> jbk: Directed at kaiwai.
[20:43:21] <jbk> oh
[20:43:22] <nachox> just save the polite request template in a shortcut if your irc client supports that :P
[20:43:32] <bda> mmf.
[20:43:43] <kaiwai> pardon: "Our current focus is puppet, an system administrative engine for your whole network. Puppet lets you perform normal administrative tasks (such as adding users, installing packages, and updating server configurations) on any number of systems, even if those systems are running completely different operating systems."
[20:43:49] <kaiwai> so thats a new idea, no one has ever done it before
[20:44:00] <kaiwai> like I said, re-invention of the wheel
[20:44:06] <jbk> i'm actually being forced to use cfengine at work for something that's it's really not suited for..
[20:44:22] <jbk> kaiwai: have you used cfengine, opsware, etc. ?
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[20:44:33] <jbk> if you did, you'd understand why it exists
[20:44:53] <kaiwai> *shrugs* forget it, too tired to debate
[20:44:59] <jbk> there are a few damned frustrating things about cfengine (for example) that the author flat out refuses to fix
[20:45:00] <bda> You don't know enough to debate.
[20:45:17] <nachox> is looking glass still being worked on?
[20:45:37] <jbk> the biggest one is it uses public/private keys for authenticating systems (a good thing), but provides no easy way to register a new system with a master
[20:45:57] <bda> jbk: I do that at install time.
[20:45:58] <jbk> i've personally seen multiple people bring this up with the author in person, and he's like 'oh well that's your problem'
[20:46:15] <jbk> you still need a way to automatically get the keys to the server and into the ppkeys directory
[20:46:23] <nachox> bda, i think you just want to pick a fight, let it go, i doubt he will mention that again
[20:46:41] <bda> Right. There has to be a trust relationship between the install server and the cfengine master.
[20:46:47] <jbk> then there's the general bugginess
[20:46:54] <kaiwai> jbk: whats n1 like compared to cfengine?
[20:47:00] <jbk> extra space in a file it's reading? *segfault*
[20:47:10] <jbk> haven't messed with n1 too much
[20:47:36] * bda apparently has N1 for his X4100.
[20:47:54] <jbk> though i think it deals more with just moving/putting stuff onto servers than managing the configuration
[20:48:27] <jbk> i.e. stuff like 'make sure anonymous ftp is off on all boxes; make sure md5 is the default crypt algorithm on all boxes'
[20:48:38] <jbk> i don't know how well it could do stuff like that
[20:48:43] <bda> Heh.
[20:48:55] <bda> I'm ghetto. I have tests written in Test::More for that.
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[20:51:37] <jbk> but things like delegation of privledges, auditing, etc. aren't really addressed with either puppet or cfengine, however with puppet at least, I think some sort of front end could be utilized -- i.e. let it do the actual changes, let something else control what's fed into it
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[20:52:07] <bda> Puppet has a Solaris Zone provisioning bit.
[20:52:14] <bda> So presumably you can extend it to do whatever you want it to.
[20:52:36] <jbk> when you get into a big company, it's not unusual to have a security/compliance group that will say 'you _MUST_ have these settings enabled/configured on these boxes for legal reasons'
[20:52:50] <jbk> that might be separate from the sysadmins -- there might be many separate sysadmin groups
[20:53:19] <jbk> so if you can do things like allow the security group control modifications to that policy, but be able to report globally on which systems are or aren't following it, etc.
[20:53:32] <jbk> companies would _really_ like that
[20:53:43] <jbk> bda: yep
[20:54:14] <jbk> i almost envision a sort of ide w/ access control type setup that merely feeds in the config files to it for whatever you want to manage
[20:54:22] <jbk> for that piece
[20:54:31] <jbk> and it looks like people are doing some bits with a config db with it as well
[20:54:46] <bda> jbk: That is, basically, what I use my Perl tests for (ensuring configuration compliance). It's nice because they're quick and easy to write.
[20:54:57] <bda> But it's really something that belongs in an integrated mgmt framework.
[20:55:34] <jbk> i think it's really a matter of taking the right existing things, and doing some supplementation, glue, and a little bit of extension, then packaged together nicely
[20:56:12] <jbk> bda: yeah -- like where I work now -- it's an international firm
[20:56:31] <bda> jbk: If you are serious, I would be interested in helping out.
[20:56:52] <jbk> i am, just right now I'm working on finishing up (mostly testing at this point) the replacement sparc disassembler
[20:57:10] <jbk> so it's more just ideas until that's finished
[20:57:17] <bda> nod
[20:57:28] <kaiwai> jbk: the i18n is looking good (according to the blogspot)
[20:57:35] <jbk> but at work, there are regulations from all over the world we have to comply with
[20:57:43] <jbk> so that's all handled by a separate group
[20:58:02] <kaiwai> *shudder*
[20:58:11] <bda> Write policy in XML, parse and convert to configuration imperatives. ;P
[20:58:19] <jbk> ick xml
[20:58:29] <kaiwai> governments, the ban of man's existance
[20:58:53] <jbk> but so it'd be nice to let them manage the policies and track compliance
[20:59:03] <jbk> all i need to do is use it
[20:59:17] <jbk> and if i can't modify what they're doing, that's better from a regulatory perspective
[20:59:31] <jbk> stuff like that
[21:00:48] <jbk> anyway... need to go run and do some stuff.. bbl..
[21:01:09] <bda> I can see it now. User builds new policy, the client app converses with server, procedures and actions are built and displayed to user, along with their consequences.
[21:01:24] <bda> "Block port 22 from anywhere. Are you uh, really sure? Really really?"
[21:01:36] <bda> [ ] yes [ ] no
[21:01:37] <bda> :<
[21:01:53] <nachox> hehe
[21:04:13] <jamesd__> i would love to see the request... yes, we installed  the latest OS patches and we can't even ssh in,  so we need to fly tonight so we can access the console of our sf6800  because it was production and we had the serial console disabled and now we are locked out of ssh,  the quote we got from the travel agent was $6000 it was the only seat left on the plane.
[21:05:05] <bda> jamesd__: And you can't just go in and change the policy yourself because policy set by security staff are sancrosant.
[21:05:23] <jamesd__> bda, yeah pretty much...
[21:05:38] <bda> Travel would only be required if mgmt was through ssh or if they also managed to block the config agent's port. :P
[21:05:46] <bda> Fun, though.
[21:06:16] <jamesd__> 1/2 of our servers that my team manage are 1500 miles away in tempe az, i'm in   milw, wi
[21:06:50] <bda> aw, you could just send coraline over to sort it out for you.
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[21:07:24] <radien> Hi everybody
[21:08:04] <jamesd__> bda, nah we would send,   neominder  her bf, and also works for the same company as me :-)  just a different  division.. it would take an act of congress to get her access to our datacenter... it would only require 10 phone calls and blood oaths to get  neominder in
[21:08:19] <bda> ha.
[21:09:20] <radien> Any one knows about syn flood protection in Solaris 10?
[21:09:24] <jamesd__> it 2 took 2 weeks,   3 manager approvals to get my datacenter access granted,  and i had to get a hand scand on top of my  pass card and id,  and i have scan twice  to get in.
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[21:12:00] <radien> Hello!
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[21:15:06] <jamesd__> hi
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[21:37:15] <cyborg--> Hey guys. I am  brand new to solaris,  my  interest is based on ZFS.    Is there a site i can read about the difference of opensolaris vs solaris?  like  opensolaris is  offering  v10  but commercially available is  v11 ?
[21:37:34] <e^ipi> opensolaris is some code
[21:37:38] <e^ipi> and solaris is an OS
[21:37:39] * tsp waits for 5 minutes while zsh tries to get the first completion out of a directory he accidentally hit tab in
[21:37:54] <e^ipi> think "GNU/Linux" vs. "RedHat"
[21:38:44] <Rawn027> e^ipi: how do you figure?
[21:38:58] <Rawn027> i believe the correct analogy is Fedora v. RedHat
[21:38:59] <e^ipi> ? what do you mean "how do you figure" ?
[21:39:08] <Rawn027> wouldnt you agree
[21:39:09] <cyborg--> so opensolaris has included a binrary version of the kernel which is cloesd source?
[21:39:17] <e^ipi> Solaris Express is the bleeding edge version... like fedora
[21:39:20] <nachox> no, fedora is an actual booting os, osol is not
[21:39:32] <e^ipi> solaris 10 is the old supported version, like RHEL
[21:39:39] <e^ipi> opensolaris is a pile of code, like gnu/linux
[21:39:44] <Rawn027> e^ipi: its not old
[21:39:55] <Rawn027> its open source
[21:40:04] <richlowe> 10 is not open source.
[21:40:09] <Rawn027> right
[21:40:15] <e^ipi> chunks of SX aren't either really...
[21:40:19] <Rawn027> solaris express is a whole OS though
[21:40:22] <richlowe> Chihan: precisely.
[21:40:22] <cyborg--> I'm hoping, with time to get a function iscsi targets on top of  zfs, and it seems viable,  i assume it would be benificial to purchase the o/s
[21:40:23] <richlowe> uh.
[21:40:26] <richlowe> e^ipi: precisely.
[21:40:32] <Rawn027> cyborg--: its very easy
[21:40:47] <e^ipi> you don't need to purchase Solaris
[21:40:50] <e^ipi> ever, it's all free
[21:40:53] <Rawn027> i know
[21:40:55] <e^ipi> you can get support for S10
[21:40:56] <Rawn027> i use solaris everyday
[21:41:24] <Rawn027> but Solaris Express is still considered a "Distribution" just like Solaris and Fedora and RedHat
[21:41:36] <e^ipi> yes
[21:41:45] <e^ipi> a distribution of some code, called "OpenSolaris"
[21:41:50] <richlowe> and some other bits.
[21:41:57] <e^ipi> which is exactly what I just said 5 mins. ago
[21:42:06] <Rawn027> but dont you think  "some code" is misleading
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[21:42:10] <Rawn027> because you cant boot some code
[21:42:13] <Rawn027> you can boot solaris express
[21:42:16] <richlowe> That's exactly his point.
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[21:42:22] <richlowe> and solaris express is a product of SMI
[21:42:25] <richlowe> whereas opensolaris, isn't.
[21:42:25] <Rawn027> but you CAN boot Solaris Express
[21:42:33] <Rawn027> oh I see where he was going
[21:42:55] <e^ipi> yes, you /can/ boot solaris express
[21:42:59] <Rawn027> i didnt know that you said OpenSolaris and Solaris Express are not the same thing
[21:43:04] <e^ipi> but solaris express is just an opensolaris distro
[21:43:05] <richlowe> we can't do a damn thing about SX, we can't control what's in it, it's all Sun's.
[21:43:08] <richlowe> but we do have some control of opensolaris.
[21:43:16] <Rawn027> richlowe: right
[21:43:17] <nachox> opensolaris is a brand registered by sun though
[21:43:31] <richlowe> nachox: right, so I can do almost everything except say "opensol... oh"
[21:43:32] <richlowe> ;)
[21:43:43] <Rawn027> lol
[21:43:43] <nachox> :P
[21:43:54] <Rawn027> What about Project Indiana? When is that supposed to be official?
[21:44:16] <Rawn027> I am assuming its going to be rolled into Solaris Express in one of the upcoming releases
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[21:44:45] <nachox> i have no idea, i stopped paying attention to that long ago :P
[21:44:58] <Rawn027> nachox: lol are you a Solaris 10 only guy?
[21:45:44] <nachox> Rawn027, no, i got annoyed with all the arguments about it
[21:45:44] <e^ipi> you'll find that not many people in #opensolaris give a damn about ian's distro
[21:45:52] <Rawn027> nachox: ahhhh i see
[21:46:09] <Rawn027> e^ipi: yeah i read a while ago that he was heading it and I was quite upset.
[21:46:15] <richlowe> In general, nobody knows a damn thing about indiana except the few people pushing it.
[21:46:16] <Rawn027> I moved to solaris to get away from linux
[21:46:19] <nachox> e^ipi, a classical recipe for collapse if you ask me
[21:46:19] <richlowe> I'd suggest asking them, I guess.
[21:46:52] <oxygene> Rawn027: "in one of the upcoming releases" - as there is no "indiana" at this time (and for the next months or years), it can't be rolled into anything but a steam engine
[21:47:04] <Rawn027> haha
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[21:47:24] <e^ipi> it exists soley to dilute the solaris brand & act as advertising for Linux
[21:47:33] <richlowe> Nah.
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[21:47:48] <Jondice> anyone know of a db-25 <-> usb cable that works well with solaris?
[21:47:53] <richlowe> apparently integrity doesn't sell, surely the goal is to make us suck so people have more to tinker with? ;)
[21:48:15] <oxygene> richlowe: there's enough to tinker as is..
[21:48:24] <oxygene> it just doesn't have the linux feel
[21:48:27] <e^ipi> it's an innovative way to attract developers... break shit until they come to fix it
[21:48:53] <Rawn027> oxygene: IMHO the linux feel SUCKS
[21:49:13] <oxygene> Rawn027: ian seems to disagree, and he's the big guy in charge for indiana *shrug*
[21:49:21] <oxygene> Rawn027: complain there, it _might_ help
[21:49:35] * g4lt-mordant doubts it
[21:49:36] <Rawn027> oxygene: hehe obviously ian is obviously going to promote it
[21:50:01] <Rawn027> oxygene: but if they make it too linux-ie and get rid of what I use in solaris i will cry
[21:50:14] <richlowe> The key point is that indiana isn't a project, but a delivery mechanism for several.  The end result being that Ian doesn't actually, really, have any engineers.
[21:50:29] <Rawn027> haha
[21:50:30] <richlowe> so relative suck depends entirely on those implementing.
[21:50:37] <e^ipi> ian's also a linux user, and that's where his loyalties lie. I'm not sure if he's just incompitent or if he's actually trying to kill solaris, but either way, with him in charge everyone's going to be running Linux
[21:50:40] <g4lt-mordant> Rawn027, so will baby jesus, so we hope it doesn't happen
[21:50:55] <Rawn027> g4lt-mordant: nice
[21:51:19] <e^ipi> it's not like indiana accepts community input at all either, so there's no way to save it
[21:51:27] <nachox> e^ipi, that's a bit pessimistic, ian is a linux guy, yes but i think he has good intentions
[21:51:40] <e^ipi> I don't
[21:51:40] <nachox> and indiana does accept user input
[21:51:47] <e^ipi> nachox, since when?
[21:51:54] <g4lt-mordant> well, given that most of the community input is "are you fucking kidding me?", I can see why they stopped taking it
[21:52:00] <nachox> they have a mail list in which a lot of argument happened
[21:52:01] <e^ipi> any contentious issue goes straight to ian
[21:52:39] <e^ipi> and the arguments resulted in the project managers picking whatever they were going to do anyways
[21:52:44] <nachox> e^ipi, it's either that or the debian way where everything takes an eternity to happen
[21:53:37] <e^ipi> so why have a mailing list at all? why not just allocate some engineers & ship what's going to be created anyways despite how anyone feels about it
[21:54:08] <nachox> e^ipi, solving those issues are basically what people in charge actually do, who should solve them otherwise?
[21:54:13] <e^ipi> it's not like a simple vote on a contentious issue would take that long either... a weeks notice, a vote, and that's done
[21:54:53] <nachox> anything would take weeks then
[21:55:01] * sstallion sighs
[21:55:08] <sstallion> any ldap + netgroup guys around?
[21:55:26] <e^ipi> nachox, so again, why bother having a mailing list? why bother pretending they care about what the community thinks?
[21:55:56] <e^ipi> why do they not just do what ian & glynn are going to do anyways, and just shut up about it until they ship something?
[21:56:15] <nachox> e^ipi, because it is in the mailing list where users discuss their problems and proposals, where do you think contention issues come from?
[21:56:47] <oxygene> e^ipi: because this way they can claim that "we listened to your concerns" if it's crap afterwards
[21:56:55] <e^ipi> oxygene, exactly
[21:57:21] <e^ipi> even if they don't actually listen to your concerns at all
[21:57:40] <oxygene> they seem to listen - that's a different thing than acting on them
[21:58:19] <g4lt-mordant> e^ipi, why is ian talking and not shipping?  because someon needs to shoot his mouth off rgularly to fill the void McNealy left ;P
[21:58:22] <e^ipi> they don't seem to listen aside from dismissing comments as "well, we're doing it this way anyways... deal with  it"
[21:58:29] <nachox> hahaha
[21:58:32] <richlowe> g4lt-mordant: Hrm, now that's an interesting way to look at it. :)
[21:58:49] <nachox> for the record scott is still talking
[22:03:53] <nachox> anyway, voting doesnt work for this particular issue, it takes too much time, it's hard to implement properly
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[22:04:53] <e^ipi> yeah, why bother consulting the community, it takes too much time
[22:05:03] <oninoshiko> o.0?
[22:05:08] <e^ipi> oninoshiko, indiana
[22:05:51] <oninoshiko> what are you not consulting the community on WRT Indiana?
[22:06:00] <e^ipi> anything
[22:06:03] <nachox> e^ipi, without users there is no possible viable product, that is why, and it happens that your users are the community
[22:06:10] <e^ipi> anything that anyone cares about anyways
[22:06:58] <nachox> SCO is finished, hehe
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[22:08:15] <oninoshiko> i thought the point of Indiana was that it allows a easy way to get feedback. Solaris alone isn't enough to be a viable product (linux is "Good enough" (just like windows))
[22:08:34] <oninoshiko> but it does allow easy ways to push hardware sales
[22:08:35] <oxygene> nachox: it's just that their target audience isn't part of opensolaris.org. it also seems like their target audience isn't interested in becoming a user
[22:08:36] <axisys> nachox: well sco was funded by microsoft and then novell joined with microsoft.. who did really win?
[22:09:15] <oninoshiko> axisys: the battle or the war?
[22:09:19] <e^ipi> oninoshiko, no, the point of indiana isn't to easily get feedback, because they don't listen ot feedback
[22:10:18] <e^ipi> the point of indiana seems to be to murder solaris by hyping up how much better linux is
[22:10:24] <nachox> oxygene, i think the real problem is that they approached the issue the wrong way, the initial pr work was just crappy and that generated a lot of confusion among possible users, and they are actually still confused, that kind of thing generates rejection
[22:10:42] <oxygene> nachox: so far, there's nothing that could clear up the confusion
[22:11:03] <bda> We should just log ONE of these conversations somewhere. Whenever it starts to come up again, paste the URL.
[22:11:05] <kaiwai> Indiana is a community based distribution derived from OpenSolaris - the fedora of openSolaris
[22:11:06] <oninoshiko> well i can only speak from experence, but i know that the few bugs i've reported have made it internal, and i have had a couple of really good conversions with Ken Davis to get fixes into the iSCSI tareget
[22:11:09] <oxygene> nachox: any kind of "spec" is vague at best, so the only way to "get" indiana is to hope that no-one messes up.. and sorry, that happened once too often
[22:11:13] <jamesd__> upgrade your  ultra 10, to a  blade $150 for  $5....   http://cgi.ebay.com/SUN-Microsystems-Badge-Logo-plate-from-Sun-Blade-150_W0QQitemZ200139250204QQihZ010QQcategoryZ58361QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
[22:11:18] <e^ipi> kaiwai, don't believe ian's lies
[22:11:31] <e^ipi> indiana is an Ian Murdock based distribution
[22:11:37] <nachox> oxygene, there actually is, they must release something, and after that provide a roadmap which they ought to respect, that simple
[22:11:40] <kaiwai> e^ipi: believe what you want; it isn't as though it'll hurt it
[22:12:15] <oninoshiko> of course i am on the SUN release of OS too... so i might not be following Indiana per se.
[22:12:31] <kaiwai> Indiana will be a more up to date version that Sun's own solaris
[22:12:34] <oxygene> nachox: "release" - I hope they're well isolated until quite a while after that, so it can be dropped without pain in the other parts of OSOL
[22:12:50] <e^ipi> ask them about a desktop environment, something that a lot of people feel strongly about
[22:12:53] <e^ipi> they won't even put it to a vote
[22:13:05] <e^ipi> because if they do that, Ian's choice might lose
[22:13:27] <oninoshiko> yeah, everyone knows E17 is the One True Desktop (tm)
[22:13:57] <kaiwai> pardon? Ian's distro is but one distribution
[22:14:04] <e^ipi> it's just a bunch of gum flapping by some middle managers at Sun Micro about how much they love the community & openness without having to actually commit to listening to the community or being open
[22:14:05] <bda> e^ipi: Whatever happened to the Blastwave distro?
[22:14:16] <kaiwai> if you don't like it, create a 'e^ipi distro' to compete with it - assuming you could do a better job
[22:14:19] <jamesd__> i thought it was the  60x48" oak and mahogony megadesk inc  model  33434343 was the one true desktop.
[22:14:31] <nachox> e^ipi, here is what will happen, if ian doesnt take it's users into account, indiana will fail and he will be replaced
[22:14:55] <oxygene> nachox: who are his users? solaris people? linux people?
[22:15:54] * oninoshiko really doesnt care so much... oninoshiko is useing it on servers
[22:16:03] <oninoshiko> it being OS
[22:16:17] <kaiwai> well, its eventually going to replace SXDE
[22:16:29] <kaiwai> so lets wait and see
[22:16:31] <nachox> oxygene, why is that important? what i stated is just how software in general works
[22:17:05] <oxygene> nachox: if it's not solaris users, I know that I can simply ignore it (and resist any changes some indiana dev wants to make to parts I care about if they're crap)
[22:17:31] <oninoshiko> allegedly, and if i dont like some  bit of his SW, ill replace it with something to my liking
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[22:18:31] <e^ipi> to do that, you'll need to fork opensolaris
[22:18:52] <e^ipi> but i mean, maybe that's what it needs...
[22:18:54] <oninoshiko> no i wont, ill just install my own pakage
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[22:19:26] * bda rolls eyes.
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[22:19:32] <gejza> Hi,I'm completely new to opensolaris.I consider myself intermediate user of linux systems.What would be my starting point for opensolaris? any links? thanks
[22:19:41] <oninoshiko> i have no desire to fork anything (except maybe a steak, mmm... steak)
[22:19:42] <quasi> bda: you rolled a 6
[22:19:45] <nachox> gejza, docs.sun.org
[22:19:45] <Triskelios> I think this entire discuss is a bit premature
[22:19:50] <Triskelios> *discussion, rather
[22:19:58] <e^ipi> gejza, download SXCE
[22:20:00] <gejza> nachox: yep,but there's like 4348324823docs :)
[22:20:01] <bda> gejza: The admin guides at docs.sun.org. Probably SXCE (Solaros 10 Community Edition) for the dist.
[22:20:02] <e^ipi> opensolaris.org/sxce_dvd
[22:20:07] <gejza> ok thanks
[22:20:17] <oninoshiko> gejza, yes SXCE from opensolaris.org
[22:20:27] <gejza> ok
[22:20:28] <bda> hm, SolarOS.
[22:20:33] <Triskelios> bda: SX is Solaris 11, actually..
[22:20:41] <nachox> gejza, pick the solaris specific docs
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[22:21:04] <e^ipi> bda, quick! trademark that before SUNW finds out about it!
[22:21:08] <bda> Triskelios: Fair enough.
[22:21:19] <bda> e^ipi: Sounds like a cereal.
[22:21:34] <oninoshiko> solaris make me want photovoltaic cells connected tyo a thumper...
[22:21:51] <oninoshiko> to*
[22:22:01] <bda> e^ipi: Seriously, though. I thought you were somewhat involved in the blastwave distro.
[22:22:09] * bda stopped paying attention a while ago.
[22:22:54] <Triskelios> oninoshiko: I would switch to solid-state drives first =P
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[22:23:46] <oninoshiko> Triskelios: probiblt a good idea
[22:24:04] <e^ipi> bda, i'm distracted at the moment w/ SoC stuff
[22:24:19] <e^ipi> whether the blastwave distro comes to pass or not, I dunno, but I would like to build a distro
[22:24:30] <e^ipi> ask me again in 3 weeks
[22:24:59] <nachox> really?
[22:25:20] <gejza> sun.org
[22:25:21] <gejza> This domain is for sale Please contact us for more information.
[22:25:22] <gejza> wtf?
[22:25:23] <gejza> :)
[22:25:28] <nachox> that would be nice, except that you would need to basically repackage everything
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[22:25:33] <nachox> gejza, sun.com
[22:25:40] <gejza> :)
[22:25:59] <oninoshiko> you should buy it, gejza, an start a cult
[22:26:31] <gejza> yep,was thinking about selling sunglasses
[22:26:52] <oninoshiko> you could be the pope of the sun cult... ill be a cardnal if you like
[22:26:55] <bda> haha.
[22:27:03] <gejza> :)
[22:27:06] <bda> nachox: wtf, how the hell did we both do that.
[22:27:07] <oninoshiko> i just want a red yamica
[22:27:18] * bda needs more sugar.
[22:27:33] <oninoshiko> : gives bda a sugar packet
[22:27:36] <nachox> bda, ??
[22:27:46] * oninoshiko gives bda a suger packet
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[22:27:50] <bda> nachox: See 16:19.
[22:27:53] <bda> Heh.
[22:28:34] <nachox> no timestamps here and we're probably in a different timezone
[22:28:37] <bda> (adjust for TZ)
[22:28:38] <bda> Heh.
[22:28:41] <bda> Anyway, it doesn't matter.
[22:28:57] <nachox> the cult thing?
[22:28:59] <nachox> wasnt me
[22:29:06] <bda> No, the fact that we both typed 'docs.sun.org'.
[22:29:13] <bda> Now you've made me feel creepy.
[22:29:30] <nachox> ohh, well, it's kind of the default
[22:29:43] <bda> org?
[22:29:57] <nachox> ops
[22:30:08] <nachox> see? i dont think when i type
[22:30:43] <nachox> bda, it's just the opensolaris.org/solaris.com/sun.com confusion :P
[22:30:54] <bda> ;P
[22:30:58] <bda> /dev/md4              892G  886G  6.3G 100% /var/icg/backups
[22:30:59] <bda> sigh
[22:31:06] <bda> Always something.
[22:31:45] <nachox> use linux then, at least it will be something different every time
[22:31:56] <bda> That is Linux. :)
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[22:33:18] <nachox> 6.3gb is 5% of 892gb? :) how much is actually reserved?
[22:34:18] <bda> Default is 5% on XFS, iirc.
[22:34:37] <nachox> and ext#
[22:34:45] <bda> Also 5%, presumably.
[22:34:52] <bda> (that is xfs)
[22:35:00] <nachox> ohh
[22:35:32] <bda> Archive script fell over. Should get another 20GB back. shrug.
[22:35:33] <nachox> what linux are you running there?
[22:35:39] <bda> Debian 3.1rwhatever.
[22:35:48] <nachox> ohh, old stable
[22:35:51] <bda> Yea.
[22:36:07] <nachox> i was forced to use that at work :(
[22:36:26] <bda> What do you think I'm moving to Sol10. :)
[22:36:39] <nachox> i wish i could do that
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[22:36:50] <bda> It's not a trivial process, but worthwhile for sure.
[22:36:55] <nachox> xfs is ok though
[22:36:59] <bda> We're not even that big of a shop. :)
[22:37:16] <bda> Yeah, we use reiserfs in lots of places still. I have cried about in here before.
[22:37:16] <nachox> you can grow it while mounted
[22:37:28] <bda> Because... it's reiserfs. What else does it do besides break and make you cry.
[22:37:47] <oninoshiko> we are getting off reiser faster then the flash on speed
[22:38:30] <nachox> with reiser in jail it is kind of expected
[22:38:37] <bda> The place where it really matters has proven pretty hard to move. I got three filesystems moved over and users were screaming about speed issues (which is fair, the disks were grinding).
[22:38:39] <e^ipi> oninoshiko, that's a bit premature... maybe he'll be able to still maintain it from prison
[22:39:11] <nachox> too bad xfs is not supported anywhere
[22:39:11] <oninoshiko> he hasnt managed to yet...
[22:39:38] <oninoshiko> and my client's data is important now
[22:40:19] <bda> I am vaguely interested in ext4, but only insofar as I expect I'll still have to admin Linux.
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[22:40:41] <oninoshiko> bda: indeed
[22:44:32] <jbk> back..
[22:44:56] <oninoshiko> wb
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[22:45:51] <oninoshiko> we are discussing how linux sucks and solaris pwns it... you missed earlier the discussion of how much solaris sucks and linux pwns it
[22:46:28] <Stric> and both discussions are right
[22:46:41] <bda> Huh. AVS is in core as of b68?
[22:46:58] <oninoshiko> no stric, you wrong... both discussion are wrong
[22:46:59] <bda> So many reasons I want to run ONNV in production. :\
[22:47:07] <nachox> i wonder how is the project to rewrite the closed parts of libc doing
[22:47:36] <tsoome> if someone loves linux so lot, then stick with it and no need to bugger solaris channel.
[22:47:37] <oninoshiko> ;P
[22:47:43] <nachox> AVS?
[22:48:05] <nachox> tsoome, maybe they love bashing solaris users too :)
[22:48:11] <e^ipi> nachox, i'm doing fine on it
[22:48:31] <tsoome> ofc, as they cant steal another piece of technology...
[22:48:37] <bda> nachox: http://www.opensolaris.org/os/project/avs/
[22:48:48] <e^ipi> at the moment i'm removing the private undefined functions from mapfile-vers and trying to build libc with my code
[22:49:37] <nachox> e^ipi, you are the only one working on that?
[22:49:39] <e^ipi> when it compiles more or less cleanly, i'll see how much breakage it causes
[22:49:46] <e^ipi> nachox, yes, it's my summer of code project
[22:51:03] <nachox> you have a testsuit to compare the closed and open parts?
[22:52:08] <e^ipi> no, because it costs millions of dollars
[22:52:33] <bda> Those are pinky in mouth numbers.
[22:52:50] * e^ipi shakes fist at the Open Group
[22:52:59] <richlowe> you could probably write a simple one to compare with libc_i18n.
[22:53:17] <e^ipi> yeah, that was the plan
[22:54:03] <nachox> lol
[22:54:04] * oninoshiko had no disputes with the open group
[22:54:19] <oninoshiko> has*
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[22:56:06] <richlowe> according to the opengroup pricelist, they won't actually tell you the price until you ask
[22:56:14] * bda hates that.
[22:56:21] <e^ipi> and if you have to ask, you can't afford it
[22:56:22] <bda> In general, I mean.
[22:56:27] <oninoshiko> that happens all the time...
[22:56:33] * oninoshiko is kinda used to it
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[22:59:23] * oninoshiko wonders about the relevance of the opengroup
[23:00:13] <nachox> relevant enough that people still seek it's certification
[23:00:30] <e^ipi> people being IBM & Sun ?
[23:00:49] <nachox> and apple
[23:00:58] <nachox> probably hp too
[23:01:23] <e^ipi> aix5 and sol10 are the only unix03 os'
[23:01:33] <Jondice> anyone know the minimum requirements for nevada on x86?
[23:01:36] <e^ipi> but apple mentioned something about seeking unix03 for osx leopard
[23:02:01] <e^ipi> Jondice, a CPU capable of processing instructions, and as much ram as you can afford
[23:02:44] <e^ipi> 512M is okay, but don't use ZFS... 1G is comfortable, more is best
[23:02:45] <Jondice> e^ipi, hehe ok
[23:02:46] <nachox> e^ipi,  http://arstechnica.com/journals/apple.ars/2007/08/01/mac-os-x-leopard-receives-unix-03-certification
[23:02:49] <Stric> e^ipi: I think 10.5 already got certified
[23:02:54] <oninoshiko> SOME people... but i mean i dont see users going crazy saying "nope, i cant buy your product, its not certified by the Open Group"
[23:02:57] <e^ipi> oh, well... good for apple then
[23:03:22] <Jondice> e^ipi, i need to put *some* os on an old pentium box i have around, its the only thing i have with a db-25 connection
[23:03:35] <Jondice> which i need to try to connect to my ultra 60
[23:03:52] <nachox> solaris will crawl in an old pentium
[23:04:12] <tomww> think of systemrescuecd with the ssh-daemon or a knoppix?
[23:04:14] <e^ipi> open/net/freeBSD should be okay on such an old box
[23:04:22] <reflect> is it normal that resilvering of a raidz takes just about zero cpu?
[23:04:26] <tomww> or: diskette-linux
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[23:04:41] <e^ipi> there are open and freebsd livecd's
[23:04:58] <e^ipi> ( olivebsd and freesbie )
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[23:05:06] <reflect> openbsd flies on such an old platform.. I have it installed on a P166
[23:05:17] <nachox> olivebsd}
[23:05:33] <Jondice> reflect, cool
[23:05:48] <Jondice> i guess it doesn't matter much, i just want to use it to connect to the ultra 60 over a serial line
[23:05:55] <e^ipi> and olivebsd has the added bonus of shipping with fluxbox, which is about the lightest-weight windowmanager still in active development
[23:05:55] <oninoshiko> reflect: i have only had to resliver once, and that was on a system that had little activity... so it went faster then i could notice -_-
[23:06:00] <Jondice> speaking of which, what software would you suggest for doing that in bsd or linux?
[23:06:08] <nachox> flux rocks
[23:06:25] <Jondice> i've been using dwm lately
[23:06:26] <reflect> oninoshiko: it did for me too, until I put alot of data into the zpool
[23:06:26] <nachox> openbsd
[23:06:33] <Triskelios> Jondice: kermit or tip
[23:06:34] <Jondice> only like 1500 lines of C code
[23:06:42] <Jondice> and easy to customize
[23:06:47] <Jondice> (if you know C)
[23:07:12] <Jondice> Triskelios, thanks much
[23:07:20] <oninoshiko> reflect: hrm, how long is it taking, and how much is "alot"
[23:07:33] <oninoshiko> if i may be so bold.
[23:08:08] <reflect> oninoshiko: 4TB of data, estimated time 1.22H
[23:08:15] <reflect> though, it's alot faster than that
[23:08:16] <bda> Heh, I have a box that takes 20 hours to scrub 320G (mirrored SATA 3.0Gb/s disks).
[23:08:59] <bda> (all my other systems, some with the same amount of data or more, take ~1-2hr... thank you, socklog...)
[23:09:10] <reflect> we're down to some 45 minutes now, I think (nearly 600MB/s writes)
[23:09:23] <oninoshiko> reflect: that doesnt seem too bad
[23:09:31] <reflect> but I don't get it, I see nearly zero cpu usage
[23:09:39] <Stric> it's just disk io
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[23:10:15] <oninoshiko> its probibly just disk io, using DMA
[23:10:16] <oninoshiko> hmm
[23:10:28] <reflect> resilvering HAS to involve cpu usage on a raidz.. no?
[23:11:11] <oninoshiko> some, but think about what you are computing. a parity bit... not an intensive operation
[23:11:18] <reflect> on the other hand, perhaps it's just checking the previous data to see what differs
[23:11:43] <reflect> I snatched the disk in mid-operation to test zfs and see how replacing a disk was done
[23:11:50] <reflect> so, alot of the data would be the same, I guess
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[23:13:11] <oninoshiko> i just wish they would fix auto-configuring newly attached SATA disks
[23:13:51] <reflect> yes.. the procedure seems to be to configure the device.. then "replace" it, and finally "clear" it
[23:15:03] <reflect> but I'm on b68, it may have changed
[23:15:44] <reflect> Jondice: for linux, minicom worked for me when doing serial line communication
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[23:16:05] <adultera2edjedi>   /quit
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[23:31:32] <Jondice> reflect, cool - i think i'm gonna go with suse since the last time i touched a bsd was about 7 years ago
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[23:36:58] <reflect> good luck with that
[23:37:34] <Jondice> does open solaris support crazy things like 3d acceleration for the Creator 3D?
[23:37:48] <Jondice> or should I go with an official Solaris release?
[23:37:49] <reflect> if  you're just going to use it.. it doesn't really matter what OS you have anyway
[23:38:15] <reflect> opensolaris becomes solaris later on..  I would wager a 'yes' there
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[23:38:50] <Jondice> yeah, but I wasn't sure if those drivers were, well, open.
[23:38:55] <Jondice> but now that i think about it, that wouldn't matter
[23:39:20] <reflect> I'm just guessing, anyway..  best to confirm it with someone in the know
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[23:39:58] <Triskelios> Jondice: Xsun as shipped with SX should still support it, Xorg might be flakey
[23:40:43] <oninoshiko> apparently acceleration works for nvidia, but not ATi (go figure)
[23:41:13] <Triskelios> oninoshiko: he's talking about a chip created by the SPARC graphics folks, not your mainstream stuff
[23:41:14] <Jondice> Triskelios, alright, guess i'll look in to how to switch between the two if i get that far.
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[23:43:52] <oninoshiko> triskelios: linkie?
[23:43:59] <Triskelios> oninoshiko: eh?
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[23:44:25] <oninoshiko> do you have a link to more info?
[23:46:23] <Triskelios> no, it's possible that the Creator3D driver was dropped, but I doubt it since the main purpose of Xsun at this point is to support the older SPARC stuff
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[23:54:44] <cyborg--> hrm,  in solaris on this 32bit processor it says the disks are too large,  but they worked when i was testing on linux
[23:55:22] <e^ipi> my ffb2+ works with xorg just fine
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[23:57:32] <Chipdancer> is anybody here running snv66+xen with zfsroot?
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