[00:03:02] <coffman> brendang: the memory fills up and the it swaps like mad
[00:03:04] <pbaumgartner> Stric: i've been debating between samba on solaris and solaris iscsi target + windows initiator
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[00:19:24] <brendang> coffman: yep - that'll do it
[00:19:50] <coffman> brendang: sec. i get up the logs
[00:20:03] <brendang> coffman: when the system runs low on memory, all sorts of things can start to stall
[00:20:54] <coffman> yeah, this thing fills up the memory in second. like 800mb in 10 secs or so
[00:24:34] <coffman> brendang: http://rafb.net/p/sX26Pf43.html http://rafb.net/p/gcikq634.html  http://rafb.net/p/log5Nr62.html
[00:24:55] <coffman> iostat, mpstat, vmstat
[00:26:03] <brendang> coffman: oh boy, that laptop is in hell
[00:26:15] <jbk> some coder have a sticky 0 key? :)
[00:26:51] <coffman> brendang: what you mean? yeah i think this thing is shity ofc - but what in special?
[00:28:12] <brendang> coffman: ok, for vmstat: the first thing I see is "w" at 128 - which means that the system has been very sad recently - and swapped out 128 threads (old fashioned thread-swapping).
[00:28:35] <brendang> coffman: then I see "free" at 3800 Kbytes, very low,
[00:29:36] <brendang> coffman: then I see "mf" at 1000+ constantly, so something is chewing through memory (probably as fast as the system allows)
[00:29:51] <brendang> coffman: which may be our queue for dtrace,
[00:30:21] <richlowe> 'cue'
[00:30:35] <brendang> oops
[00:30:54] <brendang> richlowe: thanks. too much kernel programming, or not enough English classes, or something...
[00:30:59] <brendang> coffman: dtrace -n 'vminfo:::as_fault { @mem[execname] = sum(arg0); }'
[00:31:23] <brendang> coffman: that will trace who (the process name) is causing those minor faults (maybe you already know)
[00:32:17] <brendang> coffman: then we can get a bit more interesting, and do things like,
[00:32:22] <brendang> coffman: dtrace -n 'vminfo:::as_fault { @mem[execname, ustack()] = sum(arg0); }'
[00:32:43] <brendang> coffman: which may/should show why they were eating memory.
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[00:34:27] <coffman> brendang: so where those the output go while my system goes to die?
[00:34:39] <coffman> normal > should do?
[00:35:09] <coffman> aeh yeah
[00:36:01] <brendang> coffman: there will be no output until you hit ctrl-C
[00:36:35] <richlowe> at which point the system is thrashing, and you maybe unhappy.
[00:36:36] <brendang> coffman: or you can set a timer, add this to the end of each: -n 'tick-60s { exit(0) }' -o /tmp/dtrace1.out
[00:36:55] <richlowe> brendang: print the aggr in a tick-, perhaps?
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[00:37:13] <richlowe> (is the output flushed rapidly, in the case of -o, so it'll still be around if the machine falls over?)
[00:37:44] <brendang> richlowe: you could print it in a tick...
[00:38:35] <jmcp> that quick, eh?
[00:39:25] <richlowe> brendang: just seemed an easier way to get rolling output, where the last was most-specific, so if the machine fell over under that load, you'd have the most specific data % interval
[00:40:04] <coffman> i got to hard reset for sure every time ....
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[00:41:22] <coffman> my irssi runs on a server :P
[00:43:25] <brendang> gotta run for a sec, back later
[00:44:20] <bda> blah, this sucks. Tonight had potential, and now I am sad.
[00:44:39] <bda> VAR didn't think to order drive sleds for the box I got from him. And he didn't get the RAM I told him too.
[00:44:44] <bda> And there is no GIR in my Zim DVD house!
[00:45:11] <coffman> this time i was fast enough
[00:45:13] <bda> At least "Spook Country" is here. If I can't install the damn X4100 I can at least read.
[00:46:15] * coffman wonders if i could jail that thing in a zone
[00:46:36] <coffman> memcap on the global would not work :P
[00:47:35] <jbk> can you set caps on projects?
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[00:48:33] <coffman> jbk: what do you mean? that i should create a project for the app?
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[00:48:49] <jbk> well i can't remember if you can cap projects, or just zones
[00:48:57] <jbk> but if you can, then yes
[00:49:02] <coffman> you can cap projects
[00:49:05] <bda> You can cap projects.
[00:49:28] <coffman> but im nor sure if this helps that much, since it then starts to swap...
[00:49:35] <coffman> but i could try that...
[00:50:02] <jbk> well the thing is, it would hopefully keep everything else from getting paged out
[00:50:39] <coffman> yeah :(
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[00:50:53] <jbk> it sounds like regardless, to fix things either you're gonna need more ram or figure out how to get it's consumption lower
[00:51:02] <jbk> though there are at least some tools that might help with the analysis
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[00:53:20] <coffman> jbk: this is truley a bug
[00:53:33] <chris_d> Anyone familiar with zfs send and receive?
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[00:53:48] <chris_d> Specifically, do I need to have matching setup on the target device?
[00:53:57] <chris_d> If so, is there an easy way to create it?
[00:54:10] <jbk> chris_d: i don't believe so, just enough space in the pool
[00:54:14] <chris_d> Finally, can I send/receive and entire zpool, or do I have do a file system at a time?
[00:54:42] <coffman> hmpf
[00:54:44] <jbk> since it's one way of getting around the top-level vdev removal issue (i.e. that you can't)
[00:55:15] <jbk> chris_d: i think you have to do a filesystem at a time, though i know they were/are working on a -r option, just no idea it's status
[00:55:20] <coffman> the pastebins are all to small for the output
[00:55:29] <coffman> some one should make a dtrace bin
[00:55:42] <chris_d> On an unrelated note, I'm happy to report great success with my zfs/nfs tuning.
[00:56:03] <chris_d> untar'ing my test file went from 137 seconds to 8 seconds by relocating the zil to a USB drive.
[00:56:16] <jbk> cool
[00:56:52] <chris_d> Now we're trying to source an NVRAM card for the thumper.
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[00:59:12] <jbk> out of curiousity, is there any sort of zenity-like tool for terminals (i.e. curses based)?
[01:00:28] <CIA-17> gw25295: 6584470 zdb needs to initialize the bpl_lock mutex, 6583739 libzpool should check for properly initialized mutexes, 6548010 unbalanced mutex_init/mutex_destroy issues in zfs, 6502263 ZFS needs some more FreeBSD porting love, Contributed by Pawel Dawidek, 6576827 multiple calls to spa_activate() can end up reinitializing all its mutexes, 6576830 certain spa mutexes and condition variables need some love
[01:00:29] <CIA-17> rie: 6589819 ld generated reference to __tls_get_addr() fails when resolving to a shared object reference
[01:00:30] <CIA-17> mcwalter: 6562542 CP3060 has no eeprom cmd - first reboot hangs
[01:02:50] <coffman> brendang: http://rapidshare.com/files/47811888/dtrace1.out.html thats the log
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[01:17:58] <brendang> coffman: ok, so a process called "psi" is causing all those minor faults, and it is exiting before that DTrace one-liner can capture its stack trace
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[01:23:58] <jmcp> psi is one of those jabber IM clients, iirc
[01:24:40] <richlowe> Yeah.
[01:25:49] <coffman> yep, bad it behaves bad
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[01:33:55] <brendang> coffman: it behaves really bad.. with some effort, you can get the translated stack traces out of them
[01:34:43] <brendang> although you might get lucky just by adding: -n 'tick-1sec { printa(@); }'
[01:35:57] <moazamraja> re
[01:37:50] <bda> Anyone know the magical invocation to get Sun Store to spit out disk sleds for non-storage units?
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[01:39:23] * Gman files an RFE for a 'feeling-lucky' dtrace provider
[01:39:33] <bda> ha
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[02:09:54] <Tempt> Good morning everyone!
[02:10:36] <dlg> LIAR
[02:10:49] <Tempt> Hey, my morning has been quite reasonable so far.
[02:11:03] <dlg> im doing timesheets
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[02:11:28] <Tempt> Ouch.
[02:11:32] <Tempt> How awful for you .
[02:11:37] <Tempt> I'm installing zones
[02:11:44] * dlg jealous
[02:11:59] <Tempt> and feeding them little zpools with luns from our san
[02:12:13] <coffman> im debuging a stupid app
[02:19:44] <jamesd> we had a solaris 8 box that faught to keep from having Solaris 10 installed on it   http://uadmin.blogspot.com/2007/08/install-solaris-10-get-8-today-at-work.html
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[02:30:38] <coffman> brendang: dtrace: invalid probe specifier tick-1sec { printa(@); }: in action list: failed to resolve @_: Unknown variable name
[02:31:23] <brendang> coffman: that stuff would need to be added to the previous one-liner (whould should be getting rather long)
[02:35:49] <coffman> brendang: dtrace -n 'vminfo:::as_fault { @mem[execname, ustack()] = sum(arg0); }' -n 'tick-1sec { printa(@); }' -o dtrace1.out - like this?
[02:36:14] <brendang> ahh - sorry, that should be printa(@mem)
[02:36:28] <brendang> that's what I get for writing the script in my head :)
[02:39:13] <coffman> well got to catch some sleep
[02:39:52] <coffman> brendang: i will mail your or put it on a list or something, beside of that i will kick some developers ass for sure
[02:39:59] <coffman> that also could help
[02:40:28] <brendang> coffman: I'm always in #dtrace, so let me know how it goes
[02:40:53] <coffman> ah nice
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[02:42:35] <coffman_zzz> n8
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[02:47:27] <noyb> anyone have a quick cheat-sheet for setting up kerberized nfs in snv?
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[02:57:18] <noyb> anyone have a quick cheat-sheet for setting up kerberized nfs in snv?  (I fell off the net for a bit, if this is a repeat question from me.)
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[03:09:14] <jbk> evening
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[03:20:00] <postwait> http://bugs.opensolaris.org/view_bug.do?bug_id=6531267
[03:20:19] <postwait> Yikes how does that not necessitate a patch for u3?
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[03:22:01] <jbk> they say they're using a development version of the nge driver
[03:22:10] <jbk> perhaps the version shipped doesn't have the issue
[03:23:34] <jbk> and who's to say they're not gonna ship a patch?
[03:24:16] <richlowe> especially since it doesn't look to be fixed yet.
[03:24:19] <richlowe> assuming the bug is up to date.
[03:24:34] <richlowe> though if they could deliver patches before they'd actually fixed the problem, I'd certainly be impressed. :)
[03:25:00] <postwait> The bug isn't up to date.
[03:25:07] <postwait> That was fixed in b61 I think
[03:25:49] <jbk> then it's very possible they're working on backporting the fix
[03:25:56] <jbk> especially if it's on shipping hardware
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[03:26:28] <postwait> http://www.opensolaris.org/jive/thread.jspa?messageID=127258
[03:26:31] <postwait> Last note.
[03:30:11] <jbk> that seems unfortunate
[03:30:37] <jbk> but all it'll take is a few people with a support contract hitting the issue
[03:30:52] <jbk> the bigger the customer, the faster it'll likely happen
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[03:31:42] <postwait> Well.. I'll regsiter my complaints.. I've got a few support contracts.
[03:31:51] <postwait> It'll go into the queue with my other unanswered support requests.
[03:31:56] <postwait> ;-)
[03:32:16] <jbk> talk to your support rep if you're not getting the level of support you think you should be getting
[03:35:00] <Tempt> Man, just looking at the m5000 specs
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[03:35:02] <Tempt> 275 kilos?
[03:35:04] <Tempt> wtf?
[03:35:09] <Tempt> They don't look that big...
[03:35:16] <richlowe> maybe they're full of lead.
[03:35:20] <richlowe> oh, except for the RoHS stuff I guess.
[03:35:25] * richlowe wonders what's dense, but harmless.
[03:35:30] <richlowe> other than murdock, obviously ;)
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[03:38:45] <sommerfeld> Tempt: the spec I found (internal copy of sun system handbook) says 125kg (275 lbs)
[03:38:59] <richlowe> that sounds more likely.
[03:39:56] <sommerfeld> V890 by comparison is spec'ed at: 88.0 kg (194.0 lb.)(minimum, approximate) 130.6 kg (288.0 lb.)(maximum, approximate)
[03:40:06] <sommerfeld> which is in the same ballpark
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[03:40:24] <lloy0076> Crap.
[03:40:24] <comay> postwait: if you have a support contract, you can ask to escalate 6494441
[03:41:06] <lloy0076> If I have a BrandZ Zone, does that mean Live Upgrade won't work, as per (http://www.opensolaris.org/os/community/zones/faq/#sa_upgrade)?
[03:41:13] * lloy0076 thwaps self
[03:41:28] <lloy0076> Yes, it does work. You've had a BrandZ at home running all the time and been live upgrading.
[03:43:46] <richlowe> comay: if they refer to the same issue, why isn't the older closed duplicate?
[03:44:25] <comay> sorry, which one was the other issue?
[03:44:52] <richlowe> 6531267
[03:45:26] <richlowe> the bug postwait initially referenced.
[03:45:51] <postwait> I think they are the same issue.
[03:46:23] <sommerfeld> 6531267 was closed as "not reproduceable"
[03:47:06] <Tempt> sommerfeld: Sounds much more reasonable.
[03:47:22] <Tempt> sommerfeld: Marketing bumpf has it wrong
[03:47:50] <postwait> I certainly have: 6531267 reproducing.
[03:48:15] <postwait> And it's really nasty because you have to physically disconnect power to the machine to get it working again.
[03:48:55] <richlowe> sommerfeld: i still see it as 3-Accepted
[03:49:00] <richlowe> sodding b.o.o didn't sync it.
[03:49:47] <richlowe> anyway, I'm not playing whack-a-mole with b.o.o again, so it can stay broken.
[03:49:48] <postwait> sunsolve is telling me all my support contracts are invalid
[03:49:59] <postwait> which have all been renewed within the last six months.
[03:50:18] <postwait> a-hole tearing on the horizon.
[03:53:14] <sommerfeld> 6531267 was closed as unreproduceable on  	2007-04-13
[03:53:26] <postwait> sigh.
[03:53:57] <sommerfeld> it has a "see also" for 6501159 nge driver failed to attach after heavy network IO stress testing
[03:54:15] <sommerfeld> in state 5-Cause Known
[03:54:51] <comay> looks like 6531267 was also closed without comment :-(
[03:55:12] <postwait> I assume I can't load the nge driver from opensolaris on my u3 box, right
[03:55:47] <sommerfeld> which appears to have similar symptoms
[03:56:05] <sommerfeld> (nge_attach: nge_chip_reset() failed)
[03:56:36] <sommerfeld> (so it may well be a dup which wasn't closed as a dup)
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[04:17:42] * FrostCS yawns
[04:18:00] <dennis> will join you :)
[04:19:03] <FrostCS> I guess I am playing catch up again.. I thought I missed the T2 release, but.. it doesn't seem to be a release.. just benchmark marketing?
[04:19:50] <richlowe> seems they announced the chip, and not the systems.
[04:20:01] <richlowe> given the electronics business, maybe you can buy the chip, but not the systems?
[04:20:19] <FrostCS> heh, it would seem that way, but that would be a first for Sun, no? :-)
[04:20:34] <FrostCS> unless of course I had a need for several thousand of them.. of course.
[04:21:53] <FrostCS> I'd be a bit curious of what they are actually running all these benchmarks on though..
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[04:22:38] <dlg> an emulator?
[04:23:21] <FrostCS> I surely hope that's sarcasm :-)
[04:23:22] <richlowe> the machine they didn't announce?
[04:24:11] <FrostCS> is there specs for this machine they haven't announced? besides a pair of 10Gbe nics?
[04:24:24] <FrostCS> which is obviously a problem of it's own for me.
[04:24:50] <dlg> FrostCS: if its like the neptune, they can shove different tranceivers in front of it
[04:25:02] <dlg> you can get neptunes that do a lot of gig ethernet
[04:25:05] <dlg> instead of 10gig ethernet
[04:25:52] <richlowe> it isn't two 10GBE nics, it's basically two neptunes on the chip.
[04:26:26] <dlg> then they can do gig with it if they want
[04:26:27] <FrostCS> ah
[04:26:51] <dlg> http://www.sun.com/products/networking/ethernet/sunx8quadgigethernet/index.xml
[04:26:54] <dlg> thats a neptune
[04:27:20] <FrostCS> I am just trying to mush together information from blogs, so I have no idea about the chip to server differences etc..
[04:28:01] <richlowe> dlg: it's also an awful real name for a product.
[04:28:12] <FrostCS> I am just trying to get an idea of whether this is going to be geared as a T1k/T2k replacement, or what..
[04:28:21] <dlg> richlowe: neptune is? or sunx8quadgigethernet?
[04:28:38] <FireflyST> anyone seen dlewis?
[04:28:57] <FrostCS> FireflyST, add another e
[04:29:04] <FrostCS> !seen delewis
[04:29:06] <Drone> delewis is currently online in #opensolaris and last spoke on Wed 08 Aug 2007 12:51 GMT, saying 'no way in fuck am I creating .bff's.'.
[04:29:16] <FrostCS> sorry, I didn't mean to swear, lol
[04:29:52] <richlowe> dlg: the full name.
[04:30:19] * dlg shrug
[04:30:27] <dlg> everyone will call them neptune
[04:30:45] <richlowe> Yeah, because the full title on the part is utterly unmemorable.
[04:30:46] <FrostCS> or "the trident men"
[04:30:57] <dlg> for sure
[04:38:53] <sommerfeld> FrostCS: the T2 chip has been announced.  as far as I can tell, no systems based on the T2 chip have been announced yet.
[04:40:06] <richlowe> sommerfeld: that's the impression I get.
[04:40:24] <FrostCS> so plenty of time to start a rumor about it being in the next xbox still yet
[04:40:29] <richlowe> hah.
[04:41:30] <richlowe> sommerfeld: odd to announce them separately though.
[04:43:23] <FrostCS> the Xbox T2, it will overthread the competition!
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[04:46:56] <dlg> yeesh, the neptunes are some heavy nics
[04:46:57] <sommerfeld> someone with a bit of a clue can probably determine likely platform codenames and uname -i values
[04:47:10] <sommerfeld> by looking at nevada sources
[04:48:03] <richlowe> at this point, you can almost certainly just google for them.
[04:49:54] <FrostCS> the ouija board points toward xbox though
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[04:57:57] <Tpenta> ibelieve that ashlee at the reg has already done that bill ;)
[05:00:12] <moazamraja> hah
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[05:00:19] <moazamraja> 'tis the water in mountain view.
[05:00:54] <jmcp> Tpenta: I love seeing Ashlee's rants about the project which he can't get a leak on
[05:01:07] <moazamraja> fish?
[05:01:12] <jmcp> go
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[05:01:56] <Gman> jmcp, he interviewed the indiana team at oscon, and every 5th question was related to fishworks
[05:01:59] <Gman> was rather amusing
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[05:02:04] <Tpenta> funny that
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[05:03:07] <jmcp> Gman: I bet it was
[05:03:26] <Gman> can't blame a guy for trying
[05:03:34] <jmcp> he's getting so *bitter* about it
[05:04:17] * Tpenta *nearly* has a working sh DTrace provider
[05:04:24] <richlowe> Tpenta: evil!
[05:04:27] <Tpenta> well it works, it's just nor complete
[05:04:46] <jmcp> Tpenta: does it just do Bourne shell, or does it do ksh93 as well?
[05:04:47] * jmcp hides
[05:04:54] <Gman> heh
[05:04:59] <richlowe> jmcp: Roland plans that, of course.
[05:05:34] <jmcp> richlowe: I know, I know... just thought Tpenta might have beaten him to it
[05:05:51] * Tpenta is oding bourne shell
[05:06:00] <Tpenta> brendan is asking a few folks he knows to look at the others
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[05:06:55] <pg_user> ksh or csh
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[05:07:17] <pg_user> i graduated from bash to ksh, and now some people tell me csh is better
[05:07:24] <jmcp> pg_user: they're lying
[05:07:35] <pg_user> that's what i thought
[05:07:52] <pg_user> ksh is better than bash cause of set -o vi
[05:08:33] <pg_user> that is so cool.  I read theo from openbsd trash bash and praise ksh.  That's what motivated me to switch
[05:09:10] <pg_user> now i am enlightened about ksh. Why isn't ksh the default shell in solaris?
[05:09:36] <jmcp> pg_user: Standards(tm)
[05:09:43] <delewis> because /sbin/sh isn't compatible with /usr/bin/ksh.
[05:09:44] <jbk> speaking of shells, is there any interest in creating pfbash & pfzsh ?
[05:10:15] <jbk> only because they are also included
[05:10:22] <jbk> seems incomplete
[05:11:23] <richlowe> but that'd involve SFW making actual changes.
[05:11:25] <richlowe> (the horror!)
[05:11:37] <richlowe> but yes, that'd be good.
[05:12:18] <jbk> hell, if they don't we can always just create a supplemental package
[05:14:40] <sfire||mouse> pg_user: you don't like the option of set -o vi?  is that why you don't like bash?
[05:15:17] <delewis> bash supports set -o vi, too.
[05:16:21] <pg_user> ok so bash is better than ksh?
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[05:17:39] <richlowe> a shell is a shell, the best one is the one you prefer.
[05:21:32] <sfire||mouse> or use the one that is default, and learn it to suit your needs
[05:23:14] <jamesd_> richlowe, well  restricted shell may not qualify as a shell
[05:23:40] <pg_user> ok, so all shells are equal?
[05:23:54] <FrostCS> and dolphins are fish too!
[05:24:05] <pg_user> then why does theo deRatt go on about how ksh is better than bash?
[05:24:14] <jamesd_> and  gold fish and a  200lbs. tuna are the same right?
[05:24:14] <FrostCS> because he's a dolphin
[05:24:23] <FrostCS> but of course
[05:24:46] <FrostCS> just the tuna is filled with 200 lbs of former goldfish
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[05:25:21] <Jiko> afternoon
[05:25:33] <richlowe> I didn't say all shells were equal, I said the best one is the one you preferred to use.  Anything else is just a foolish argument.
[05:27:23] <jmcp> hi Jiko
[05:27:29] <sfire||mouse> are all programming languages equal?  Can most do a bubble sort?
[05:27:34] <Jiko> hiya jmcp :)
[05:27:37] <Jiko> forgot about this channel
[05:27:44] <jmcp> Jiko: thought so
[05:27:59] <Jiko> not that I actually use opensolaris anywhere :-/
[05:28:07] <jmcp> sshhhhhh
[05:28:20] <Jiko> we're getting more and more solaris 10 boxes though! :)
[05:28:27] <jmcp> that's a good start
[05:28:36] <FrostCS> better look out, the new xbox will be running it soon
[05:28:50] * FrostCS is just kidding, just kidding!
[05:28:59] <Tempt> Besides, ksh isn't a shell.
[05:29:22] <jmcp> it's a way of life
[05:29:35] <Tempt> pg_user: Did you complete your ultra-reduced instruction set upgrade?
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[05:34:27] <pg_user> Tempt: no
[05:34:48] <pg_user> i'm not going to ruin my netras
[05:35:03] <pg_user> you guys may think they are junk but I like looking at them
[05:35:19] <pg_user> it makes me feel like i'm in charge of a datacentre
[05:35:26] <pg_user> in my bedroom
[05:36:07] <Tempt> just get a really loud air conditioner
[05:36:18] <Tempt> and some horrid fluoro lighting
[05:36:27] <Tempt> and you're on the way.
[05:36:46] <pg_user> sometimes I like to put my netras on the bed and spoon with them
[05:36:51] <FrostCS> or a partner who snores..
[05:36:53] <Pietro_S> pg_user: what are reaction on them from girls/wife?
[05:37:03] <pg_user> i don't have a gf or a wife
[05:37:28] <pg_user> i'm like a cat.  I do what i want when I want to.
[05:37:48] <Pietro_S> I hope that it's not effect of having netras in bedroom ;-)
[05:37:49] <jamesd_> pg_user, then solaris is not your OS, i'm thinking  *bsd (possibly  openbsd, if you have maintained this datelessness for more than 5 years)  or linux.
[05:38:51] <FrostCS> perhaps minix
[05:39:04] <Tempt> I've always wondered why there is endemic homophobia among the dateless social-life free linux weenie crowd. Surely if they opened their horizons they could lose their virginity to each other. If it worked out, the lack of breeding would keep them out of the gene pool too.
[05:39:25] <pg_user> Tempt: define virginity
[05:39:42] <pg_user> I always thought losing ones virginity meant penis in vag
[05:39:58] <Tempt> Kaiwai! Can I get a consult here?
[05:40:07] <pg_user> gay people may be eternal virgins
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[05:44:20] <brendang> Tempt: next time I'm giving a talk to a linux crowd, that seems like a good opening statement. not risky at all. :)
[05:44:34] <jmcp> yeah
[05:44:42] <jmcp> make sure somebody is streaming it live so we can all watch
[05:45:19] <Tempt> brendang: Feel free to use it without attribution.
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[05:46:16] <sponix> jamesd: you there ?
[05:46:25] <jamesd> yeah
[05:46:57] <sponix> jamesd: found a java course ran by a someone at sun, looks pretty nice
[05:47:17] <richlowe> brendang: hah.
[05:47:42] <jamesd> i would prefer a java course ran by star bucks, or at least altera, to one by ran by sun.
[05:47:58] <sponix> jamesd: why ? :P
[05:49:03] <Tempt> On the Sun java course, they'll teach you to write applications almost as good as smc
[05:49:16] <jamesd> java is fine for programmers, but its used far too much for my taste,  you got to love a language that can take a  50k binary written in C and blow it up to be 100MB when written in java.
[05:49:23] <sponix> Tempt: well, anything taught is better than what I currently know
[05:50:31] <sponix> jamesd: by the end of the course, I'm going to attempt to write an easy interface for zfs administration, if I can't do that, then I will think the course was a waste
[05:51:32] <FrostCS> an easy interface in Java..
[05:51:37] <jamesd> sponix, its allready been done... the better question is why use it?
[05:51:40] <Tempt> Isn't there already an easy zfs interface?
[05:52:03] <sponix> jamesd: don't spoil my fun, now you will have me out there searching for it :P
[05:52:22] <Pietro_S> jamesd: untild java app use some fancy additional libraries (like eclipse) I like it more, cause porting some C, C++ sources is nighmare
[05:52:34] <sponix> jamesd: I don't, but want something for the wife, honestly, so she can admin the drives while I'm gone
[05:53:27] <FrostCS> rent an assistant
[05:53:31] <jmcp> Tempt: but if there's no gui interface, then clearly it's no good
[05:53:42] <jmcp> sponix: look at htp://localhost:6789
[05:53:47] <jmcp> http://localhost:6789, too
[05:53:57] <sponix> oh, I did easily impress someone with zfs today ... had a raidz2 pool going from 4 thumbdrives for building samba, took one out on the fly, showed the iostat of it being out, and how it came right back into the pool with a scrub
[05:54:55] <sponix> jmcp: Interface is more a java project for me, given I could do anything, but I like to at least feel like I'm writing something I might like when its done
[05:55:42] <sponix> I got my ass handed to me today on a online course, didn't expect it to ask stuff about ff and ufsdump etc
[05:55:43] <jmcp> oh, ok
[05:55:46] <jmcp> that's alright then
[05:55:51] <jmcp> ff?
[05:55:54] <jmcp> firefox?
[05:56:08] <sponix> jmcp: no, "man ff" its an actual command
[05:56:17] <sponix> exactly, it was tossing stuff at me I'd never heard of
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[05:56:19] <jmcp> so it is
[05:56:33] <jmcp> last change date: 10 Feb 1997
[05:56:47] <sponix> was a good learning experience, but I honestly didn't think the course was going to be that tough when I started it
[05:57:12] <sponix> jmcp: some things are so good they never need revision :P
[05:57:15] <Tempt> which course?
[05:57:26] <jmcp> sponix: yup
[05:57:39] <sponix> Tempt: was through skillport, on Solaris 9 Filesystem _stuff_ && Backups
[05:58:02] <sponix> It tried to tell me that UDF is not a CD/DVD format also, called it something different
[05:58:05] <Tempt> ff is broken
[05:58:37] <sponix> I was setting on my SX box thanking the *nix gods for man pages
[05:59:49] <pg_user> backups for a home pc running solaris.  What do you recommend?
[06:00:09] <Pietro_S> stupid question (6am for me): how can I copy output of shell script to file while I need to let it be also in stdout?
[06:00:17] <sommerfeld> Pietro_S: tee
[06:00:23] <sponix> pg_user: what are you backing up, and from where to where ?
[06:00:30] <pg_user> my home directory
[06:00:48] <pg_user> i am still learning solaris and have hosed my system a few times
[06:00:49] <FrostCS> petabytes
[06:01:00] <FrostCS> you need them petabytes
[06:01:01] <sponix> pg_user: how large ? and how often do the files change
[06:01:04] <Pietro_S> sommerfeld: thanks
[06:01:17] <pg_user> like 500 mb of data
[06:01:31] <sommerfeld> zfs
[06:01:34] <sommerfeld> snapshots
[06:01:34] * FrostCS holds in a laugh
[06:01:37] <sponix> pg_user: with Solaris 10 or higher, you could use zfs snapshots
[06:01:42] <pg_user> i do
[06:01:45] <sommerfeld> have a second system with zfs
[06:01:48] <sommerfeld> use zfs send
[06:01:57] <pg_user> I only can afford one system right now
[06:02:14] <sponix> pg_user: I am still learning more on zfs, so I am a tar/rsync guy atm
[06:02:17] <FrostCS> email the data to yourself..
[06:02:29] <pg_user> FrostCS: ive done that bit
[06:02:36] <FrostCS> there you go then
[06:02:38] <sommerfeld> mkisofs
[06:02:39] <pg_user> i was thinking of CDRs
[06:02:44] <sponix> pg_user: external drive && rsync --delete -avP /export/home /external/drive
[06:02:51] <pg_user> and multisessions
[06:03:09] <pg_user> sponix: what does the --delete do?
[06:03:21] <pg_user> hopefully it doesn't delete my / directory
[06:03:26] <sponix> yeah, nothing wrong with just making a tarBall out of  your homedir and burning it to a cd
[06:03:45] <pg_user> my home directory is zfs
[06:04:09] <pg_user> i was thinking of sending the snapshot to cd-r automagically
[06:04:16] <sponix> pg_user: no that --delete will take any files out of /external/drive that aren't in /export/home/ anymore, otherwise rsync always just add's the new stuff, and never takes out the old stuff that has moved or been nuked
[06:04:36] <FrostCS> "man rsync"
[06:05:06] <sponix> pg_user: there is probably 50+ ways to back up your homedir, important part is to pick one, and make sure its working
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[06:05:34] <FrostCS> the simplest way is to never become fond of your data
[06:05:43] <pg_user> FrostCS: very true
[06:05:43] <sponix> me.. I just keep a /crap partition and rsync --delete -avP /export/home/sponix /crap/sponix to update it
[06:05:58] <FrostCS> if you just have papers for work or outlines for projects etc.. who needs it
[06:05:59] <sponix> FrostCS: and the lazy way ;)
[06:06:36] <pg_user> i've actually toasted my entire system before and CDRs seem like a dummy proof way to prevent a noob like me from destroying all my files like I've done in the past
[06:07:38] <sponix> pg_user:  yeah fdisk can be a powerful thing aye ;)
[06:07:43] <pg_user> i asked about it in #solaris but unless you have 20 years of unix experience, those questions annoy them
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[06:07:53] <pg_user> they told me to get a SAN
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[06:08:17] <sponix> pg_user: for 500Meg that would be retarded
[06:08:29] <pg_user> that's what I thought, but it got me booted
[06:08:36] <pg_user> its a tough crowd in #solaris
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[06:08:43] <jamesd> no we told you to go play in the sand and stop bugging the adults who are doing serious work ;-)
[06:08:48] <sponix> WD Passport min-external would be better for that, $70 ;)
[06:09:07] <pg_user> jamesd: serious work like talking about sex?
[06:09:16] <jamesd> exactly
[06:09:20] <FrostCS> or get a 2gb flash drive for like 10-15$
[06:09:31] <sponix> FrostCS: yeah
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[06:09:44] <pg_user> FrostCS: flash drives fill up too quickly.  I change my data alot
[06:09:47] <sponix> jamesd: heard anything on the boot/root zfs support lately ?
[06:10:08] <FrostCS> you said you need to backup 500mb of data
[06:10:09] <jamesd> sponix, it works on x86, but still requires a hack to get it to install there.
[06:10:18] <pg_user> i have 500 mb of data but that data gets changed like once a week and I would like to keep a history of that
[06:10:21] <FrostCS> you won't fill up a 2gb flash with 500mb of data
[06:10:24] <sponix> pg_user: if you rsync or zfs snap to it, it only keeps the current stuff, and only mods what it needs to (incr)
[06:10:38] <sponix> jamesd: done it ?
[06:10:42] <pg_user> so CDRs are not a good idea?
[06:10:59] * jamesd just backed up 500GB of data, not fun....  got a  500GB sata drive and attached to an old linux box, since i dont have a box that has a supported sata controller and enough ram to make zfs happy.
[06:11:00] <FrostCS> preparation H, is what you need.
[06:11:20] <jamesd> sponix, nope.
[06:11:25] <sponix> pg_user: cdr's are fine, hell you can get them for a couple cents a piece now. Nothing wrong with them
[06:11:55] <sponix> as I said before, main thing is, pick a plan, and give it a couple test runs
[06:12:11] <pg_user> i'll do that
[06:12:28] <FrostCS> and don't forget the preparation H
[06:12:50] <sponix> jamesd: I just had one of my 500G die on me the other day, what pissed me off was it wasn't even plugged it... Just popped smoke while setting idle
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[06:12:58] <pg_user> it seems that whenever I want to do something to improve my system I endup toasting it instead
[06:13:14] <sponix> pg_user: that's just part of the learning curve
[06:13:16] <pg_user> i'm a total noob
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[06:13:40] <pg_user> it is very depressing because I did some cool things with dtrace and postgresql and then lost it all
[06:13:47] <jamesd> sponix, that is why as soon as i can get the cash, i plan on moving to 3x 500GB in a raidz config,  just need 2 more drives and a controller that works on sparc.
[06:13:54] <pg_user> it took me a week to recreate it
[06:13:57] <FrostCS> sponix, just reminded me to unplug my br burner
[06:14:30] <sponix> jamesd: hmm, after the 15th, hit me up for a donation ... you do paypal riiight ?
[06:14:31] <FrostCS> jamesd, only a matter of time before another price drop :-)
[06:14:50] <sponix> jamesd: can't buy you a drive outright, but sure I could pitch in a few bucks
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[06:15:33] <sponix> I would male you one (sadly I have 4 (had 5)) but from where I am it would take about as much to ship it as the cost of the drive
[06:15:36] <jamesd> sponix, i just started a new job, have some bills to pay...  and need to catch up with some things,before i can get the wifey to sign off on it.
[06:15:47] <pg_user> did you guys and gals see that youtube video with zfs and the 12 flash drives?
[06:15:54] <FrostCS> mail*
[06:15:58] <jamesd> pg_user, yeah it was cool
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[06:16:17] <sponix> jamesd: my wife just blew 10K, so I'm ignoring all commands from the tower at this point
[06:16:40] <sponix> pg_user: I have been studying zfs with 4 thumb/flash drives
[06:16:52] <sponix> all 1Gig
[06:16:53] <pg_user> sponix: what did your wife buy?
[06:17:08] <sponix> pg_user: that's the thing, she doesn't have shit to show for it...
[06:17:09] <jamesd> sponix, i also picked up a lot of toys this month,   500GB drive,  2x qfe pci,   sata card, sata cables,  10x  ethernet cables  going to play with trunking....
[06:17:21] <sponix> whats qfe ?
[06:17:26] <jamesd> and  711 disk box...
[06:17:27] <FrostCS> sponix, it's a trait they have, amazing isn't it?
[06:17:34] <jamesd> quad fast ethernet  100mbit
[06:17:40] <sponix> awww
[06:17:42] <sponix> sweet
[06:17:48] <sponix> how much that card set you back ?
[06:17:52] <pg_user> sponix: at least you have a wife
[06:17:57] <sponix> D-Link made one a while back that was cheep
[06:18:01] <jamesd> i got both   qfe for about $30 shipped.
[06:19:02] <sponix> where did you pick them up ?
[06:19:06] <jamesd> sponix, and money was tights,  had to work 25 days before i got my first check, and our gas bill doubled for that time..
[06:19:12] <jamesd> sponix, ebay
[06:19:46] <jamesd> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=320141252023&ssPageName=STRK:MEWN:IT&ih=011
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[06:20:02] <jamesd> the seller has more i think, including one action for  4 cards.
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[06:20:32] <sponix> I'm trying to get a desktop box together for stuff like that
[06:20:55] <sponix> glad newegg ships to Iraq
[06:21:39] <sponix> holdup is 1) Wife wiped out both accounts 2) trying to follow the OSx86 HCL to get stuff that will work as a Hackintosh && Solaris box
[06:22:37] <FrostCS> I always told my ex she should have a show called "Tokyo on $400 a day"
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[06:23:15] <sponix> these sata2 drives get pretty amazing transfer speeds
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[06:23:47] <edwardocallaghan> hello
[06:23:59] <edwardocallaghan> Doc:You around?
[06:24:00] <FrostCS> as long as the drivers are good of course..
[06:24:06] <edwardocallaghan> Tempt:??
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[06:24:52] <jamesd> hmm  should i put  debian, ubutu, or perhaps fedora, or centos,   i would put solaris, but it wont run  vmware
[06:25:10] <jamesd> so solaris gets relagated to  guest os on my desktop box.
[06:25:25] <Tempt> edwardocallaghan: hmm?
[06:25:26] <FrostCS> is this a trick question?
[06:25:45] <Tempt> You should run Solaris, Solaris and Nothing But Solaris.
[06:26:16] <sponix> jamesd: Solaris with Xen for Linux ... does that work ?
[06:26:29] <FrostCS> jamesd, why do you need vmware again?
[06:26:32] <jamesd> sponix, need windows as well...
[06:26:43] <FrostCS> windows works on xen, as far as I know
[06:26:43] <jamesd> FrostCS, need windows, to keep the family happy.
[06:27:04] <sponix> jamesd: what are the specs of the box? I'm a .deb person myself, so debian or ubuntu
[06:27:05] <delewis> Xen on Solaris is supported as dom0 and domU
[06:27:07] <jamesd> FrostCS, not with out a bleeding edge cpu that has the latest virtual bits...
[06:27:12] <delewis> so yes, you should be able to run Linux
[06:27:23] <delewis> s/Linux/Solaris/
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[06:27:41] <jamesd> sponix, desktop is  ultra 20,  152  opteron 2.52 ghz, 2GB of ram untill i upgrade the ram and cpu,  2x 250GB sata drives.
[06:28:00] <jamesd> nvidia quattro fx1400
[06:28:09] <FrostCS> yea.. that won't even run vista
[06:28:38] <jamesd> FrostCS, yes it runs vista quite fine but doesn't have the latest  virtualization stuff...
[06:28:57] <sponix> jamesd: ubuntu would be the easiest .deb based distro to setup imho, and VirtualBox is just a apt-get away for installing Solaris/Win after that
[06:29:02] <jamesd> it better run vista, its  2 year old  top of the line  Sun box.
[06:29:51] <FrostCS> jamesd, heh, I was just taking a kick at vista, though I don't think the performance would be too good on 2gb of ram over xen even if it had the virt bits
[06:30:07] <FrostCS> I'd go debian or fedora..
[06:30:12] <sponix> VirtualBox kicks the crap out of vmware on this laptop, only issue I've had with it is 4G+ file transfers with Filezilla tend to crash the emulated windows session
[06:30:18] <Tempt> I remember when 2Gb of RAM was utter bloody luxury
[06:30:19] <Tempt> Hang on
[06:30:23] <jamesd> FrostCS, yeah if i had the virtual bits... i would be running  xen.
[06:30:30] <Tempt> I remember when 2Mb of RAM was utter bloody luxury
[06:30:31] <Tempt> Hang on
[06:30:34] <Tempt> I remember when ...
[06:30:35] <Tempt> ;)_
[06:30:48] <delewis> 2GB for me is the minimal on a workstation or server, nowadays.
[06:30:57] <Tempt> wastrel
[06:31:03] <jamesd> Tempt, this box retailed at $5k....   i rember when a 4.77mhz xt 8088   with 5MB was 5k.
[06:31:04] <Tempt> What do you on your workstation? GNOME?
[06:31:14] <Tempt> jamesd: Yeah, I've got one too.
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[06:32:34] <sponix> what's the latest SXDE, think I have n55
[06:32:37] <jamesd> i like debian, but i think fedora might be better supported, and  we use rhel at work for the  6 or 7 linux boxes we have...
[06:32:52] <edwardocallaghan> Tempt:Hey
[06:33:03] <sponix> jamesd: better supported for _what_ ?
[06:33:06] <FrostCS> sponix, 64a I think, but I'd urge you to use sxce.
[06:33:30] <edwardocallaghan> Tempt:Did you have another look at CMS
[06:33:31] <sponix> FrostCS: ... why ?
[06:33:43] <jamesd> sponix, the nvidia closed source drivers,  vmware server,   any other  commercial app that might find its way home to test, etc...
[06:34:05] <FrostCS> jamesd, I use fedora a lot on ppc gear.. I actually never tried x86 at all
[06:34:12] <Tempt> edwardocallaghan: Had a quick look around; it's Joomla. Otherwise, I spent last night fixing ugly code.
[06:34:51] <FrostCS> sponix, you will be able to stay in the track better if you follow sxce, and it has everything sxde has anyway :-)
[06:35:03] <sponix> jamesd: naw, apt-get install vmware-server nvidia-glx ; will take care of all that
[06:35:08] <edwardocallaghan> Tempt:What code?
[06:35:41] <sponix> jamesd: give me one sec though, if you want to go the rpm/rh route, there is a take from rhel now, its the whole thing, just recompiled from sources
[06:35:52] <jamesd> sponix, i think i'm going to give fedora a try, i'm sure a debian distro will make its way into a vhost or two...
[06:36:37] <sponix> http://www.startcom.org/
[06:36:58] <sponix> jamesd: that is rhel, just rerolled for free ;)
[06:37:27] <sponix> jamesd: had a copy of that come with linuxpromagazine
[06:37:55] <sponix> if you want to comply with work/support standards, that's the distro you want :P
[06:38:14] <edwardocallaghan> CentOS is good if you want that :P
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[06:38:56] <sponix> I've had a grudge with rh since 5.1, not sure it will ever lift
[06:39:17] <sponix> tried fedora5 a while back, just never seem happy on anything rpm based
[06:39:48] <sponix> SuSE, Mandrake(Mandriva), you name it
[06:40:01] <edwardocallaghan> see you guys later
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[06:41:39] <sponix> wtf is the diff between /dev/dsk && /dev/rdsk ?
[06:42:13] <Jiko> /dev/dsk is formatted, /dev/rdsk is raw I thought
[06:42:14] <pg_user> rdsk is the real disk?
[06:42:27] <Jiko> ie, you fsck /dev/rdsk, you mount /dev/dsk
[06:42:52] <sponix> that just seems so awkward to me
[06:43:07] <Jiko> yeah, it is a bit
[06:43:22] <Jiko> I'm sure there's a good reason for it
[06:43:27] <sponix> trying to get the naming conventions down, tired of stabbing for devs
[06:43:36] <delewis> Solaris like most sane operating systems supports raw and block-based disk access.
[06:43:47] <delewis> you're obviously from the Linux world where you don't have such luxaries.
[06:44:06] <sponix> delewis: yeah, and don't even know what that is either
[06:44:11] <delewis> of course.
[06:44:14] <delewis> you're a Linux user.
[06:44:22] <delewis> no surprise there.
[06:44:37] <pg_user> you solaris guys seem very bitter about linux, why is that?
[06:44:44] <sponix> delewis: true, I'll just have to dig deeper in my Docs to read up on that
[06:45:08] <pg_user> if solaris is so much better you should feel happy and feel sorry for linux
[06:45:29] <pg_user> that they are so stupid that they are using an os that is in the mud
[06:45:45] <delewis> if there were independent that'd be the case, unfortunately, the majority of freeware nowadays is developed by Lunix users.
[06:45:58] <delewis> and usually, *we* have to deal with it.
[06:46:05] <sponix> pg_user: at this point, I feel both have their place
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[06:47:17] <sponix> delewis: could you clarify that statement ?
[06:48:11] <Chipdancer> Jiko: what are you doing in here!
[06:48:13] <delewis> what's to clarrify?
[06:48:14] <Tempt> Linux has a place.
[06:48:20] <Tempt> cowering from my rm -rf
[06:48:31] <delewis> Linux doesn't comply with standards. People develop on it, and thus produce code that's not compliant with standards.
[06:48:35] <Jiko> Chipdancer: I've been in here for ages, just had a break when I was in Brisbane
[06:48:42] <Chipdancer> *nods*
[06:49:03] <sponix> delewis: thanks, sorry for having you spell it out
[06:49:28] <dlg> delewis: i agree
[06:49:28] <sponix> that is true, the nbsd team has a Linux grudge for that reason as well
[06:50:20] <sponix> with the OpenSolaris and SXDE (Sun Studio) I was hoping to see more Solaris Development
[06:50:39] <delewis> no, you've got politics and religion, as well.
[06:50:49] <delewis> the church of Linus and the FSF says Solaris doesn't have anything to offer.
[06:50:50] <dlg> the process of getting devel back into the tree is hard
[06:51:09] <delewis> and all of the nimble-minded Lunix developers and FSF morons believe it.
[06:51:39] <delewis> of course, why should you expect anything else from a group of users that can't even read the own license they prefer to use.
[06:51:52] <sponix> delewis: that's BS, netbeans && java kicks ass, not to mention the OpenSparc, and zfs contrib
[06:52:12] <delewis> sponix, the majority on LKML don't feel that way.
[06:52:36] <pg_user> java is not very good
[06:52:39] <pg_user> imho
[06:52:52] <pg_user> sun studio 12 kicks ass though
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[06:53:09] <FrostCS> no body cares what you think though
[06:53:12] <FrostCS> tbch
[06:53:13] <sponix> pg_user: Java can be very good, its poorly written java that can suck ;)
[06:53:14] <pg_user> why is java so slow when CC is so fast?
[06:53:31] <pg_user> sponix: then I must only be seeing poorly written java
[06:54:04] <sponix> pg_user: if you saw our battle software, 3 screens of map overlays, events, amazing DND/OOP
[06:54:12] <pg_user> yet, with the heavy use of xml, and the fact the java uses bytecode means that slowness is inevitable
[06:54:35] <pg_user> sponix: where do you work, the DOD?
[06:54:50] <pg_user> i'm just basing my java experience on my cell phone
[06:54:51] <sponix> pg_user: Yes, Army
[06:55:06] <pg_user> it is a samsung and it takes forever to start
[06:55:22] <pg_user> sponix: well, you guys must have some heavy iron
[06:55:41] <FrostCS> yea, they have motorola's
[06:55:47] <sponix> pg_user: boxes are dual xeons with 4Gig Ram made by HP
[06:55:50] <FrostCS> they only start once
[06:56:07] <pg_user> sponix: why not sun gear?  are you using solaris too?
[06:56:20] <delewis> x86 garbage.
[06:56:32] <Tempt> x86 rubbish
[06:56:45] <sponix> pg_user: sadly those boxen run winXP. I only have 2 Solaris boxen sparc 4G, and they are used for network traffic
[06:57:18] <pg_user> Tempt: then why does SUN use AMD chips?
[06:57:26] <sponix> pg_user: those boxen use crypto links to track battle movement
[06:57:42] <sponix> pg_user: on their _low_ end boxes ... to make them cheaper :)
[06:57:44] <pg_user> sponix: should you be telling us this?
[06:57:50] <delewis> pg_user, because the market is no longer interested in SPARC.
[06:57:55] <pg_user> :-)
[06:58:00] <jamesd> pg_user, because  amd chips are x64 and   x64 not equal the trash that intel calls x86
[06:58:05] <FrostCS> pg_user, it's xp, everyone already knows their battle movements.
[06:58:22] <pg_user> XP is quite secure actually
[06:58:24] <sponix> pg_user: I know what I can disclose, not giving any major specs that would pose security threats
[06:58:46] <pg_user> sponix: ok, good.  I just don't want to disappear for knowing too much!
[06:58:51] <Tempt> pg_user: Because the customers wanted some cheap x86 rubbish. And they got it
[06:58:52] <pg_user> :-)
[06:58:55] <FrostCS> though telling people you use XP is the biggest security threat..
[06:59:06] <sponix> delewis: I thought it was to cover down on the small buisness range a bit more
[06:59:29] <delewis> people would rather purchase a $2,000 system that's going to last a short-time, using commodity hardware, rather than buying a solid, more expensive solution, they'll get more use out of.
[06:59:30] <pg_user> i thought it was that SPARCs were getting their asses handed to them by AMD and intel
[06:59:34] <sponix> pg_user: trust me, you won't disappear for that any time soon
[06:59:43] <pg_user> :-)
[06:59:44] <delewis> sponix, what's so offense about a small business saving up a little longer and getting quality gear?
[07:00:00] <Tempt> My SPARC machine can take your x86 toys in a fight.
[07:00:07] <pg_user> delewis: most busineses don't last a long tme
[07:00:10] <pg_user> time
[07:00:10] <Jiko> delewis: often they can't afford to wait that time, or spend the extra money
[07:00:14] <sponix> pg_user: oh god now, that's why we have the sparc for our net traffic, x86 box would never keep up
[07:00:44] <delewis> SPARC hardware has come down quite a bit.
[07:00:57] <pg_user> it is still expensive though
[07:01:11] <pg_user> i saw a v125 for 3000 dollars
[07:01:17] <sponix> delewis: dude, trust me... I would _love_ to have that T2 chip, but I don't see anything wrong with Sun reaching the customer on whatever level the are
[07:01:24] <delewis> eBay? or any number of vendors that offer warranties on second-hand SPARC gear?
[07:02:17] <Triskelios> pg_user: the T1s are very economical, the older SPARCs aren't
[07:02:37] <pg_user> what about floating point performance?
[07:02:38] <FrostCS> sadly the T2 is JUST a chip though
[07:02:39] <delewis> not for most of the workloads you'd see in a small-business, anyway.
[07:02:46] <delewis> IO-wise the T1 leaves a lot to be desired.
[07:02:46] <FrostCS> you won't get much use out of just a chip
[07:03:07] <delewis> pg_user, T1 has a shared FPU, meaning you won't be doing FP-intensive workoads on it.
[07:03:08] <pg_user> i do see sun beating linux though
[07:03:13] <FrostCS> pg_user, do some more reading, you need to catch up
[07:03:18] <delewis> but then again, how many users out there are actually doing FP-intensive workloads?
[07:03:31] <FrostCS> sun != operating system
[07:03:32] <pg_user> OLAP
[07:03:33] <dlg> delewis: hpc
[07:03:37] <sponix> pg_user: honestly, its not a game, or a race
[07:03:40] <delewis> OLAP isn't FP-intensive.
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[07:03:48] <sponix> pg_user: why does there have to be a "winner"
[07:04:00] <pg_user> statistical functions are not FP intensive?
[07:04:07] <FrostCS> cause scooby can't let the criminals get away can he!
[07:04:16] <delewis> pg_user, not in the sense you're thinking of them.
[07:04:17] <pg_user> sponix: because the loser doesn't have users.
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[07:04:46] <delewis> I've always found it quite humorous how all the databse people seem to think they're doing float-point *just* because they're seeing decimals.
[07:04:47] <pg_user> users are the life of a system, without them an operating system cannot live
[07:04:51] <sponix> trust me 10 years from now, both will still have a userbase
[07:04:53] <FrostCS> SCO has quite a few users still..
[07:05:05] <pg_user> FreeBSD
[07:05:13] * pg_user ducks
[07:05:28] <pg_user> SUN is redefining unix
[07:05:36] <delewis> Sun helped define UNIX.
[07:05:39] <delewis> it doesn't need re-defining.
[07:05:42] <pg_user> soon Unix will mean DTRACE and ZFS
[07:05:47] <delewis> the Linux people just need a quick hit to the head.
[07:05:56] <pg_user> now that OS X, FreeBSD will have DTRACE and ZFS
[07:06:34] <pg_user> a unix system will come to mean a system with those features
[07:06:43] <pg_user> very brilliant on Jonathan's part
[07:06:50] <FrostCS> and goats will rid the world of all evil
[07:06:56] <FrostCS> MHA HA HA HA HA
[07:07:11] <sponix> exactly, think someone drank one to many redbulls
[07:07:40] <FrostCS> actually I am reading a book, and just kind of splurting out things as I go..
[07:07:45] <FrostCS> it seems to fit me right in
[07:07:46] <sponix> delewis: honestly, what areas do you feel Solaris needs improvement ?
[07:07:53] <pg_user> drivers
[07:07:56] <pg_user> more drivers
[07:08:18] <dlg> hardware support could be better
[07:08:28] <delewis> considering most of my hardware is nicely supported, that's not much of a concern for me.
[07:08:42] <dlg> delewis: still an issue though
[07:08:47] <delewis> my biggest concern is the stabilization of JDS/Gnome.
[07:09:00] <sponix> I am one of those evil people that runs it on x86 laptops or anything else laying around, so drivers are always and issue
[07:09:07] <pg_user> kde should be supported in solaris
[07:09:12] <pg_user> by default
[07:09:21] <delewis> from my experience with Nevada releases, JDS is in no shape or form ready to hit mainline.
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[07:09:35] <pg_user> I went to sunfreeware.org and got kde and it didn't even work
[07:09:42] <pg_user> and i have 11/06
[07:09:51] <sponix> delewis: imho xfce4 without gnome-libs would make a better choice for _servers_
[07:10:11] <dlg> ksh is a better choice for servers
[07:10:12] <delewis> right, and there's a need for a lightweight environment that'll serve as a modern replacement towards CDE.
[07:10:21] <delewis> even just using mwm would be welcomed.
[07:10:27] <pg_user> CDE is not modern?
[07:10:34] <FrostCS> imho geese shouldn't be able to draw blood.
[07:10:39] <sponix> xfce4 is fast as hell, and fairly easy to configure
[07:10:46] <delewis> the stress on a Sun Ray server (especially, memory-wise) has increased exponentially since JDS.
[07:10:58] <delewis> and that's not just JDS, really, but Firefox and Thunderbird.
[07:11:02] <pg_user> good night everyone
[07:11:15] <delewis> pg_user, CDE has been on a lifesupport for a number of years now.
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[07:11:24] <delewis> only receiving maintenance, rather than new features.
[07:11:33] <delewis> at least since the majority of UNIX vendors decided to look elsewhere.
[07:11:42] <delewis> almost everybody is still shipping CDE 1.x for example.
[07:11:49] <delewis> while 2.x has been out for years.
[07:11:52] <Pietro_S> sponix: I think that xfce doesn't work on sun rays
[07:11:57] <ballchalk> delewis: cde is good enuf for me
[07:12:00] <sponix> true
[07:12:13] <sponix> Pietro_S: why wouldn't it ?
[07:12:16] <delewis> ballchalk, you better find something else soon. It'll be going out the window for Solaris 11.
[07:12:31] <delewis> bits of CDE have already been removed from Nevada (sdtimage, etc.)
[07:12:50] <ballchalk> delewis: what other alternatives would there be besides jds?
[07:13:00] <delewis> don't get me wrong, I was a faithful CDE user, but when the vendor decides to look elsewhere, I've got look elsewhere, as well.
[07:13:09] <delewis> ballchalk, there in lies the problem.
[07:13:17] <sponix> ballchalk: I'll find myself installing xfce4
[07:13:18] <Pietro_S> sponix: maybe on nevada as sun ray server, but on Solaris 10 I doubt it
[07:13:19] <delewis> I'd prefer Sun ship mwm, which is the 'opened' version of dtwm, basically.
[07:13:24] <ballchalk> delewis: whatever is fast is good, i've even tried windowmaker w/o gnustep and i'm still not satisfied
[07:13:30] <delewis> and Sun will still be shipping the Motif libs.
[07:13:35] <delewis> so mwm is definitely a possibility.
[07:13:37] <ballchalk> hmmm
[07:13:46] <sponix> delewis: what pisses me off about gnome/jds is people will start to devel stuff that requires gnome-libs/glade etc
[07:13:50] <ballchalk> man i can't believe cde is going
[07:13:53] <delewis> and mwm maintains some compatibilty with dtwm in the sense of Xresouces, I think.
[07:13:54] <ballchalk> heh
[07:13:56] <delewis> Xresources*
[07:14:09] <sponix> delewis: then I'm stuck having to keep gnome on my system, even when I use twm ;)
[07:14:29] <ballchalk> delewis: oh i see
[07:14:39] <delewis> http://xwinman.org/mwm.php
[07:14:44] <sponix> Pietro_S: xfce4 only has a handful of deps, should build on anything
[07:14:46] <delewis> its a nice little window manager.
[07:14:55] <delewis> and if you're a fan of dtwm, mwm will be acceptable.
[07:15:41] <delewis> and I consider it a non-issue to ship mwm, because all it requires is Motif, which will be provided by Sun anyway for backwards compatibility.
[07:16:19] <sponix> delewis: mwm looks like twm to me
[07:16:37] <delewis> its dtwm, basically.
[07:16:40] <sponix> delewis: and thats the default with xorg (built into xorg)
[07:16:43] <delewis> which is the window manger for CDE.
[07:16:50] <delewis> and no, its definitely not CDE.
[07:16:55] <delewis> it relies upon Motif (twm does not)
[07:17:11] <delewis> but in any case, I think this would be an accept light-weight window manager.
[07:17:19] <delewis> XFce would bit the bill, as well.
[07:18:13] <delewis> I could be wrong but I think the big issue within Sun is they're trying to minimize the number of desktop environments they support, and if they were to integrate another one, they can't just ignore it and let it rot. They'd have to do the same thing they're doing with JDS and provide customers the maintenance they require for it.
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[07:18:41] <sponix> I just say xfce because its easy to configure (adding apps to the panel etc), but the major point is gnome/metacity is way to bloated && not mature enough for a server
[07:19:20] <delewis> that's why it takes awhile for things to get integrated into Solaris. The "latest application of the day" isn't something Sun just makes a decision about instantly and integrates it. There's a realization that it has to be treated like everything else in the userland, and acceptable to customers.
[07:19:59] <delewis> I suspect that even XFce4 may be bloated by comparison to CDE, but I could be wrong, having not used it since its make-over several years ago (when it was still using GTK 1.x)
[07:20:14] <sponix> I just feel they are leaning more toward desktop users with the gnome pick
[07:20:23] <delewis> they are.
[07:20:49] <delewis> its leaving Sun Ray users in a mess.
[07:21:01] <delewis> as the resources for a Sun Ray server have increased.
[07:21:18] <delewis> from my experience, a Sun Ray server needs at least 512-1GB of memory/user.
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[07:21:26] <sponix> I feel the "market" is what made the move
[07:21:29] <delewis> which is much, much more than what was required when CDE was the environment.
[07:22:13] <delewis> CDE ran nicely on a SPARCstation 5 /w 64MB of memory.
[07:22:15] <sponix> see, sadly enough, alot of the MS server share is won by the fact people feel at home when they see 2003, after using win2k and so on
[07:22:31] <sponix> same strat I feel
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[07:22:59] <delewis> well, I do feel JDS is a nice environment. Its certainly visually appealing to me, and I am using it right now (on a fairly beefy system, I might add)
[07:23:10] <delewis> but it is putting some of Sun's customers in a bad position.
[07:23:13] <sponix> trying to pull people in, *nix desktop users use to gnome, feel less scared of Solaris with the same _look_ on the outside
[07:23:22] <delewis> and this might go to support Tempt's theory that Sun is trying to off the Sun Ray market.
[07:23:29] <ballchalk> delewis: hey mwm looks just like cde w/o the dock
[07:23:35] <delewis> ballchalk, that's basically what it is.
[07:23:42] <ballchalk> hehe
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[07:23:52] <delewis> mwm *is* dtwm, which is the window manager for CDE.
[07:24:01] <delewis> for the most part, anyway.
[07:24:10] <ballchalk> oh
[07:24:51] <sponix> delewis: I'll flip back over to xfce4 and try to get some mem stats next time I restart or log off, but that might be a month or two down the road
[07:25:02] <delewis> there are a couple bits of CDE that I wish would hang around.
[07:25:03] <delewis> namely, dtterm.
[07:25:28] <delewis> in fact, that's the only bit of CDE that I actually care for, nowadays.
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[07:25:34] <delewis> considering there's a suitable replacement for dtwm.
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[07:25:56] <delewis> I do have source to an ancient dtterm release, however...
[07:25:57] * delewis coughs
[07:26:21] <delewis> or I could just install the dtterm package after its removed from future Solaris releases. (should still work, considering the Motif lives will be hanging around)
[07:26:38] <delewis> I know of several people that still install OpenWindows, which was EOL'd in Solaris 8.
[07:26:38] <sponix> true
[07:26:47] <delewis> works fine.
[07:26:55] <sponix> I plan to build xfce4 in a zone ;)
[07:28:40] <sponix> delewis: you working on any OpenSolaris projects atm ?
[07:29:12] <ballchalk> delewis: how is the old dtterm like?
[07:29:45] <delewis> ballchalk, never bulit it.
[07:29:54] <delewis> the sources are from the X11R5 days, rather than X11R6.
[07:30:09] <delewis> so there'd be quite some effort getting it build.
[07:30:14] <delewis> sponix, nope.
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[07:31:48] <noyb> delewis: you are perfectly correct about jds resource usage on the Sun Ray server.  That's why we would always install all of the xfce stuff.  *Much* faster.  yum.
[07:33:09] <noyb> my particular case was only an early V240 with 8 Sun Ray clients on it.  It was like night/day in server response.  it was like we all had a V240 to ourselves.
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[07:34:50] <noyb> once a month or so...  firefox or mozilla would spike to 100% cpu and kill us all, but with the admins as active clients...   "vee have vays of making it stop."
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[07:35:34] <FrostCS> lol noyb, accents and all
[07:35:50] <noyb> lol too.  :-)
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[07:38:16] <WickedWicky> hey all
[07:38:23] <delewis> so I've seen an email off to xwin-discuss and opensolaris-discuss asking if there's any issues with using mwm as a light-weight replacement to CDE.
[07:38:42] <delewis> the big advantage I see is that customers that are still using CDE would be able to have some sort of environment that's compatible with CDE.
[07:38:53] <delewis> (XFce4 loses out here)
[07:39:41] <delewis> and the integration work, I think, would be minimal, considering Sun plans to keep the Motif libs around for compatiblity.
[07:39:51] <anilg> I'm trying to build libnjp.. the main library is built.. however the sample application that is included in the source isnt building.. I checked that the libraries exist.. http://rafb.net/p/V7CKbj75.html gives the situation.. can someone suggest the change to be made?
[07:41:00] <sponix> delewis: would be nice to have something for the lower ends systems, I hate having to see 1G of ram soaked up before I even get to login
[07:42:15] <delewis> right, and I think mwm is a nice middle-ground in providing something light-weight and something that customers using CDE will be satisfied with.
[07:42:28] <anilg> can i use this ( http://wiki.buici.com/wiki/Autoconf_and_RPL_MALLOC )
[07:42:43] <delewis> sure, its not as visually appealing as XFce4, but its also not as large of a change that they'd see going from CDE to XFce4.
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[07:44:34] <delewis> and I'm speaking more than just aesthetics here. mwm uses Xresources just like dtwm does, and the resources names are fairly similar, I think.
[07:44:55] <delewis> there's be minimal effort involved in migrating a customer's .Xresources from dtwm to mwm.
[07:45:24] <sponix> I just want to option to still have something minimal to leave running, I've been known to edit the xinitrc to launch nothing but one xterm for that reason, I can start anything else I need from there :P
[07:46:30] <sponix> for a box acting as a raidz fileserver (mediaserver) that sets in the corner gnome/jds is just a waste
[07:46:52] <sponix> X in general for that matter if it wasn't for me streaming video with VLC :)
[07:47:23] <delewis> right, and I think a lot of other people feel the same way. JDS just isn't an option for some settings.
[07:47:35] <sponix> and in fact, I might just build it against X libs, you can actually start vlc streams from the console without X running, I'm pretty sure
[07:47:55] <delewis> and considering Sun obviously can't keep dtwm around when they're trying to minimize the number of closed bits in Solaris, mwm sounds appropriate.
[07:48:10] <sponix> to me, if they had virtual consoles on the fs box I would be happy dumping X completely
[07:48:37] <sponix> I've ran many of systems before X(xorg) was stable
[07:50:13] <delewis> screen isn't acceptable?
[07:50:46] <sponix> I never have played with that, its on my list though, I assure you !
[07:51:29] <timeless> can someone please explain a certain sun web page message for me?
[07:51:34] <timeless> http://bugs.sun.com/bugdatabase/view_bug.do?bug_id=6589527
[07:51:38] <sponix> good idea though, just change default runlevel to multiuser without X, and learn to use screen
[07:51:41] <timeless> More information is available at -http://java.sun.com/siteinfo/faq.html#s4q2
[07:51:41] <delewis> its just a terminal multi-plexer. You can basically have as many nested ttys in a single, real tty as you want, and it'll give you some functionality virtual terminals, themselves, may not.
[07:51:49] <delewis> such as copy and pasting, etc.
[07:51:52] <timeless> i clicked the link and ended up at a page which i can't figure out
[07:52:01] <timeless> i don't see any sign of "more information"
[07:52:12] <jmcp> timeless: that bug hasn't got any public info
[07:52:16] <delewis> and you can 'detach' from screen session and re-attach later.
[07:52:23] <timeless> jmcp: sure, that's not what bothers me
[07:52:25] <jmcp> or alternatively, whoever logged it failed to make the openable bits open
[07:52:30] <richlowe> when bugs are hidden, it links you to a rather useless page that restates "You can't see this bug" in moonman language.
[07:52:41] <delewis> so you'd be able to walk over from your actual console to your workstation and resume whatever you were working on.
[07:52:44] <timeless> the page it linked to didn't actually state that
[07:52:49] <jmcp> and this one is in java/java/classes_awt
[07:52:53] <timeless> i got developers home/fqs
[07:53:05] <richlowe> actually, my bad, it now links you into nowhere.
[07:53:08] <timeless> jmcp: i know what the bug is about, i was consulted before it was reported
[07:53:13] <richlowe> because, as we all know, The Network is the Computer.
[07:53:15] <richlowe> and Computers suck ass.
[07:53:18] <richlowe> thus must the network
[07:53:23] * timeless rotfl
[07:54:06] <jmcp> timeless: right, so in this case it could be that the particular prod/cat/subcat has been deemed not open
[07:54:07] * jmcp shrugs
[07:54:55] <sponix> well, its time for me to get some sleep
[07:55:20] <sponix> as always, been a pleasure chatting... I'm out
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[08:00:15] <CIA-17> fb209375: 4629125 usb /etc/usb/config_map.conf.old file not removed after OS upgrade, 5104777 patriot usb 1.1 hard disk got unusable on s10_67, 6477568 A USB disk device that has an error on it is not handled well, 6567635 USB scsa2usb mem size not reported messages
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[08:01:59] <Teknomancer> ok, ZFS is so fussy again. one bad reboot and now it says "Fatal error"  "/" file system is full :( Anyway to fix it??
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[08:02:19] <timeless> youch. zfsroot?
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[08:02:29] <Teknomancer> i did svcadm clear system/boot-archive (baaaad MOVE !!! )
[08:02:37] <Teknomancer> because fail-safe booting takes ages
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[08:02:56] <Teknomancer> but if svcadm clear system/boot-archive is SOOOOOOO evil , Sun should not even recommend using it :(
[08:03:00] <richlowe> jmcp: devpro (and related) bugs are closed until explicitly marked otherwise.
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[08:03:01] <Teknomancer> zfsroot? hmm
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[08:03:22] <richlowe> wow, I reconnected in time to see what I last said.
[08:03:24] <richlowe> that's some lag.
[08:04:06] <timeless> richlowe/jmcp: this bug was actually open for abit
[08:04:06] <Teknomancer> it seems ZFS now thinks / is full :(
[08:04:08] <Teknomancer> brb
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[08:25:37] <Teknomancer> re
[08:25:47] <Teknomancer> so anyway to fix ZFS ?
[08:25:53] <]srtjngs> I have an Dell Latitude l400 and was wondering if there was anyway to install OpenSolaris without any external media
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[08:27:16] <Teknomancer> how can i make ZFS fix its boot-archive ?
[08:29:22] <jmcp> Teknomancer: zfs wont do that for you
[08:29:29] <jmcp> Teknix: /sbin/bootadm update-archive
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[08:30:01] <Teknomancer> jmcp:  ok let me try that.
[08:31:02] <Teknomancer> failed
[08:31:15] <jmcp> Teknix: explain
[08:31:21] <Teknomancer> shall i paste here?
[08:31:25] <jmcp> and explain your question "so anyway to fix ZFS"
[08:31:29] <jmcp> no use a pastebin
[08:31:32] <Teknomancer> ok
[08:31:58] <Teknomancer> ever since the bad reboot,
[08:32:04] <Teknomancer> boot-up complains with
[08:32:11] <Teknomancer> UFS no space on /
[08:32:12] <Teknomancer> etc.
[08:32:16] <jmcp> so find space on /
[08:32:25] <Teknomancer> http://phpfi.com/255188
[08:32:27] <jmcp> clear away the crud which you've accumulated
[08:32:33] <noyb> and don't call me Shirley...
[08:32:38] <Teknomancer> jmcp: what i don't do ANYTHING on /
[08:32:41] <Teknomancer> i only store stuff in /export
[08:32:52] <jmcp> Teknix: how much space do you have on /
[08:33:02] <jmcp> sorry, rephrase
[08:33:08] <jmcp> how large is /, and how much is free
[08:33:29] <Teknomancer> hm, how do i check that ?
[08:33:40] <Teknomancer> probably some 130 mb free
[08:33:47] <jmcp> df -h
[08:34:20] <palowoda> Just a guess but boot admin might not know how to check the space free on a zfs filesystem.
[08:34:27] <jmcp> df -h
[08:34:30] <jmcp> should be fine
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[08:34:30] <Teknomancer>  /dev/dsk/c0d0s0        6.9G   6.7G   136M    99%    /
[08:34:43] <Teknomancer> so 136 MB free
[08:34:45] <jmcp> Teknomancer: indeed, you don't have enough space free
[08:34:52] <Teknomancer> but how all of a sudden
[08:34:55] <jmcp> like I said, move stuff around
[08:34:55] <Jiko> you're definately storing something else other than usual in /
[08:35:08] <Jiko> depends on the partitioning scheme, but there really shouldn't be much in /
[08:35:18] <palowoda> /var/crash
[08:35:21] <Teknomancer> jiko no everything i download/code etc goes to /export/home
[08:36:00] <Jiko> Teknomancer: what other partitions do you have?  /var?  /usr?
[08:36:31] <richlowe> my favourite is typo'ing /dev/null, as root.
[08:36:42] <Teknomancer> while install it created only / and /export
[08:36:45] <richlowe> that'll fill / real quick, while making lots of new and violent friends.
[08:36:45] <Teknomancer> df -h shows more
[08:36:49] <palowoda> heh done that one.
[08:36:57] <Jiko> Teknomancer: the fact that it has suddenly started using a lot more space indicates that something is filling it up
[08:37:10] <Teknomancer> yes but what /var/crash?
[08:37:29] <Jiko> check where all the space is being used
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[08:37:51] <Teknomancer> you mean with 99% full ?
[08:37:52] <palowoda> just check and make sure you don't have any system dumps in /var/crash
[08:38:04] <Jiko> yeah, use du to see what's taking up all the space
[08:38:35] <Teknomancer> http://phpfi.com/255189
[08:39:19] <Jiko> that's fine
[08:39:32] <Teknomancer> shall i show ls -s /var/crash/solaris-devx ?
[08:39:49] <Jiko> try something simple like du -sh /* ?
[08:39:50] <palowoda> Man you have some big log file or something taking up space in your root file system.
[08:40:01] <Jiko> might take a while to run, but it'll show you what dir is taking up the space
[08:40:06] <Teknomancer> http://phpfi.com/255190 <-- stuff in /var/carsh
[08:40:56] <palowoda> Yeah you don't need those unless your going to do a system debug.
[08:41:01] <noyb> du -ks /* | sort -n | tail          # that's my favorite for finding the top 10 hogs.
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[08:42:01] <Teknomancer> palowoda: ok so i'll freeup the stuff in /var/crash/solaris-devx then
[08:42:16] <palowoda> Should get you below 98 percent.
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[08:42:35] <noyb> you can try it on /tmp/* so you don't waste huge amounts of time and find a typo the hard way.
[08:43:01] <Teknomancer> http://phpfi.com/255191
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[08:43:10] <Teknomancer> check that one...
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[08:43:24] <WickedWicky> \o/
[08:43:55] <Teknomancer> palowoda:  i need /var/adm/messages file ...
[08:44:08] <palowoda> leave it.
[08:44:09] <Jiko> Teknomancer: so you've installed something into /opt
[08:44:23] <Teknomancer> yes some JDS-CBE or something
[08:44:42] <Jiko> well, there you go
[08:44:43] <Teknomancer> but even after that i didn't get this full message
[08:44:50] <Teknomancer> that has been there for ages
[08:44:57] <Jiko> do an ls /opt
[08:45:12] <palowoda> you can move the stuff in /opt to export and make a sym link.
[08:45:17] <Jiko> well, there's 2G in /opt, thats roughly 1/3rd of the whole space
[08:45:26] <Jiko> yeah, thats what I usually do, move /opt to somewhere with more space
[08:45:53] <palowoda> at least the cbe stuff
[08:45:53] <WickedWicky> good morning ladies and gentlemen
[08:46:02] <Tempt> OH NOES
[08:46:07] <palowoda> great
[08:46:11] <Teknomancer> hmm so i can just Move that CBE folder to someplace inside /export ?
[08:46:35] <WickedWicky> oh god, it's tempt
[08:46:40] <palowoda> yes than make a sybolic link to in in /opt
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[08:46:50] <Teknomancer> so i'm deleting all the files in /var/crash/solaris-devx ...
[08:46:58] <Teknomancer> palowoda: ah right.
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[08:47:14] <palowoda> Teknomancer: forgot to ask is your /export a zfs?
[08:47:38] <Teknomancer> palowoda:  it should be, i didn't change anything in the installer
[08:47:41] <WickedWicky> and if not, why not?
[08:47:52] <Teknomancer> don't even remember if it allowed me to choose the FS-type
[08:48:50] <palowoda> Teknomancer: It depends if it a pool you could move the zfs mountpoint of any directory in /opt with set zfs mountpoint=
[08:48:53] <Teknomancer>  /dev/dsk/c0d0s0        6.9G   5.7G   1.1G    84%    /
[08:48:54] <Teknomancer> WOW.
[08:49:00] <Teknomancer> from 99 to 84.
[08:49:07] <palowoda> Oh hell you have enough now.
[08:49:26] <palowoda> You need more disk space.
[08:49:27] <Teknomancer> that crash data sure takes up space...
[08:49:30] <Teknomancer> palowoda:  yes :(
[08:49:42] <Teknomancer> i am going to see if my Sony dealer will fit in a bigger drive
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[08:49:46] <Teknomancer> this is just 60 gigs
[08:49:47] <Teknomancer> far too less for my needs
[08:49:57] <palowoda> I use three 500G drives in each system for fun.  Never have a space problem.
[08:50:04] <Teknomancer> maybe put in an 120 Gig drive,  but i hope the BIOS doesn't impose limitations
[08:50:44] <palowoda> You really have some old crap huh?
[08:50:58] <Teknomancer> sony vaio laptop
[08:51:07] <Teknomancer> not really that old
[08:51:10] <palowoda> Damn I'll never buy another sony.
[08:51:39] <Teknomancer> should i run that update-archive command now?
[08:51:46] <Teknomancer> bootadm
[08:51:47] <palowoda> Sure what have you got to lose?
[08:52:10] <Teknomancer> not really comfortable with messing with the boot-archive
[08:52:11] <palowoda> Your the one finding the bugs. :)
[08:52:40] <Teknomancer> just hope it doesn't leave my boot-archive in an indeterminant state :P
[08:52:47] <Teknomancer> i don't even have a backup of my latest code yet :)
[08:52:52] <palowoda> People like watching you know.
[08:53:27] <noyb> scp goodstuff remotehost:/safeplace ...
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[08:53:39] <palowoda> Heck if you had crashdumps you got other problems too.
[08:54:06] <Teknomancer> it froze for about a minute but then completed...
[08:54:12] <Teknomancer> doesn't give me any status info
[08:54:23] <palowoda> may have worked.
[08:54:24] <Teknomancer> just said "updating .... " and after a while has finished.
[08:54:41] <palowoda> So do you think it's safe to reboot?
[08:54:53] <Teknomancer> i have been booting a few times with the "/" full error :P
[08:54:54] <WickedWicky> is Sun Studio 11 still available for download?
[08:54:57] <Teknomancer> so sure why not, let me reboot...
[08:55:09] <Teknomancer> thx a lot guys, will reboot and check.
[08:55:43] <Teknomancer> brb (i hope)
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[08:56:39] <WickedWicky> it is, n/n
[08:56:41] <WickedWicky> n/m yoo
[08:57:02] <palowoda> Than why did you ask?
[08:57:15] <WickedWicky> cause I couldnt find it on the site
[08:57:17] <Cyrille> he wanted to check whether *we* knew it ;-)
[08:57:18] <WickedWicky> now i did
[08:57:28] <WickedWicky> no, I found the answer before you answered
[08:57:51] <palowoda> no your brain was in gear before you did something useful.
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[08:59:59] <WickedWicky2> as I was saying...
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[09:00:55] <WickedWicky> I hope to be more usefull after some more coffee, I'll let you be the judge
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[09:01:25] <WickedWicky> wb
[09:01:30] <Teknomancer> yes no more Fatal warnings on boot-up
[09:01:37] <palowoda> I have to appear before a US fedral judge at 8:00am this morning.
[09:01:47] <Teknomancer> thx everyone.
[09:01:49] <WickedWicky> O.o
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[09:04:02] <palowoda> Teknomancer:  You next quest is doing a system dump analysis on the next crash you get in /var/crash. :)
[09:04:34] <quasi> those are fun, or not
[09:04:42] <Teknomancer> haha
[09:04:44] <Teknomancer> gdb core file ?
[09:05:04] <palowoda> He do the sysdump tools on sunsolve work on solaris nevada?
[09:05:24] <palowoda> Hmm they should.
[09:05:27] <quasi> Teknomancer: mdb fof system crashes
[09:06:03] <Teknomancer> oh...
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[09:26:23] <WickedWicky> jesus
[09:26:51] <trygvis> woot
[09:27:15] <WickedWicky> w00t
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[09:28:51] <WickedWicky> I got told I have an escalation waiting for me when I enter the office
[09:29:21] <kaiwai> hmm
[09:29:30] <kaiwai> a lift?
[09:29:40] <WickedWicky> naw :(
[09:30:11] <kaiwai> B70 is nice
[09:30:12] <quasi> WickedWicky: you broke it, you fix it
[09:30:21] <WickedWicky> it involves customers who rent a movie with a 24 hour licence period and after 2 hours they get the msg licence expired
[09:30:28] <WickedWicky> I didnt do anything
[09:30:31] <WickedWicky> that's prolly the whole problem
[09:30:32] <WickedWicky> :P
[09:30:33] <kaiwai> too bad it isn't supporting my computers power management
[09:31:03] <kaiwai> going to talk to HP tomorrow
[09:31:08] <kaiwai> rage against the machine and all
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[09:31:42] <quasi> WickedWicky: you didn't fix it, so essentially you broke it ;)
[09:31:53] <WickedWicky> haha
[09:31:57] <WickedWicky> it's third party software
[09:32:19] <WickedWicky> but they want me to look at the oracle database and to the problem in general to see if I can see something weird
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[09:46:32] <anilg> B70 is out?
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[09:54:34] <kaiwai> WickedWicky: interesting, thank goodness I don't have to look after a DB considering all the security issues
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[09:59:05] <WickedWicky> hoorah
[09:59:07] <WickedWicky> in the office
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[10:02:41] * WickedWicky bought a sparc 20 for 5 euro
[10:03:05] <Tempt> I'm sure it'll be very handy.
[10:03:09] <WickedWicky> lol
[10:03:11] <WickedWicky> not sure about that
[10:03:20] <WickedWicky> but he wanted to get rid of it
[10:03:27] <WickedWicky> so I said I'll buy it for two cappucinos
[10:03:56] <Tempt> hmm
[10:03:57] <Tempt> Fair cop.
[10:04:04] <Tempt> Dual CPU?
[10:04:14] <WickedWicky> not sure
[10:04:27] <WickedWicky> I am getting the keyboard and monitor with it
[10:04:31] <Tempt> Heh.
[10:04:34] <Tempt> Keyboard = good
[10:04:39] <Tempt> monitor = ... boating accessory
[10:04:57] <WickedWicky> maybe I can make an aquarium out of it
[10:05:59] <Tempt> Not worth it.
[10:06:06] <Tempt> The SS20 would be a usable OpenBSD box though
[10:06:57] <WickedWicky> that's good
[10:07:25] <WickedWicky> I need an OpenBSD box so I can mess at home for the new project i am on
[10:08:32] <dlg> mmmopenbsd
[10:13:04] <delewis> nothing like using an operating system that hasn't evolved since 1994.
[10:13:10] <adulteratedjedi> do it in VmWae :)
[10:13:31] <adulteratedjedi> s/VmWae/VMWare/g
[10:14:22] <Tempt> pfft
[10:14:24] <Tempt> vmware
[10:14:26] <Tempt> pfft
[10:14:31] <Tempt> x86
[10:14:32] <Tempt> pfffft
[10:14:50] <palowoda> But for five dolla you get a SS20.
[10:15:04] <delewis> which is about as useful as a doorstop.
[10:15:12] <nightswim> well doorstops are more expensive
[10:15:18] <iMax> doorstops can be very useful
[10:15:21] <nightswim> so it's not a bad deal
[10:15:24] * dlg used an ipx as a firewall for a couple of years
[10:15:40] <dlg> it spent a day every month doing ipsec key exchanges
[10:15:50] <adulteratedjedi> but I don't have five dollars, it is not a currency I frequently use
[10:16:00] <delewis> that poor IPX.
[10:16:09] <Tempt> I'd rather have an SS20 running OpenBSD for a firewall than some kiddytoy candyarse "linksys" shite thing
[10:16:20] <delewis> sure.
[10:16:47] <iMax> will also require more power and be louder though
[10:16:50] <delewis> and then there's FW-1.
[10:16:59] <iMax> hehe...cheap solution :)
[10:17:03] <Tempt> Don't see FW-1 running well on an SS20 these days.
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[10:17:33] <delewis> Solaris 7/8/9 and ipfilter.
[10:17:36] <delewis> can't go wrong there.
[10:17:44] <palowoda> adulteratedjedi: Ok five eura.
[10:17:49] <delewis> and no, FW-1 wouldn't be pleasant on an SS20.
[10:18:00] <delewis> not with the administration interface enabled, anyway.
[10:18:09] <adulteratedjedi> palowoda: Pounds actually, But I will let you off :)
[10:19:03] <palowoda> adulteratedjedi: You have to be careful finding pounds on the street. :)
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[10:22:30] <Tempt> delewis: Solaris 9 + ipfilter is a reasonable solution on the SS20, but OpenBSD gives you the bridging firewall stuff.
[10:23:06] <delewis> hey, there's always SunScreen :-)
[10:23:12] <iMax> :)
[10:23:14] <delewis> which does support bridging.
[10:23:17] <kaiwai> true
[10:23:57] <kaiwai> hmm, b70 of ONNV is up and available
[10:24:03] <kaiwai> I'm running it now, very nice 'n stable
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[10:24:31] <Tempt> BTW, for the Australians here, there's a Blade-1000 on Ebay at the moment for $200
[10:24:56] <dlg> can you buy it for me?
[10:25:19] <Tempt> Are you in Australia?
[10:25:22] <dlg> yes
[10:25:30] <dlg> but im poor
[10:25:40] <Tempt> Are you willing to devote your life to writing code for me?
[10:25:54] <dlg> is "me" the world wide community?
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[10:26:10] <Tempt> You can license it any way you like except GPL ;)
[10:26:13] <palowoda> Ah Tempt give it to him for 5 AUD.
[10:26:22] <dlg> mmmnongpl
[10:26:29] <Tempt> palowoda: It's not my Blade-1000, it's just a random Blade on ebay.
[10:26:47] <palowoda> Think of the children.
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[10:28:55] <dlg> Tempt: gpl is for weenies
[10:29:17] <Tempt> dlg: So, going to buy the Blade-1000?
[10:29:37] <dlg> too poor
[10:29:41] <richlowe> in the interests of fair disclosure, license arguments make me want to set people on fire.
[10:29:42] * dlg shrug
[10:30:01] <dlg> richlowe: im trying to trick him into getting me the blade
[10:30:03] * Tpenta would argue that religious fanaticism over licenses is for weenies
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[10:30:40] <delewis> setting weenies on fire is fairly natural, so nothing wrong there.
[10:31:03] <Tempt> Hey, I might be fine with the concept of giving away hardware to worthy causes, but I'm not at the buying machines on Ebay for people level of philanthropy yet.
[10:31:06] <trygvis> anyone know if the server behind the CIA bots are open? I can't seem to find any source code
[10:31:14] <trygvis> or know of a similar service?
[10:31:23] <palowoda> dlg: Pay his power bill for 2 years I'll bet he would agree to it.
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[10:31:31] <adulteratedjedi>  /NICKLIST SCREEN
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[10:31:54] <Tempt> Pay my power bill for two years and you could buy a brand new SPARC workstation.
[10:32:34] <palowoda> dlg: There you go, at least offer 1 year power payment.
[10:32:46] <dlg> :/
[10:32:58] <palowoda> Ok 1 day.
[10:33:16] <Tempt> Will swap Blade-1000 for similar spec pSeries
[10:33:34] <dlg> so dutch guy wanted to send me an ibm
[10:33:43] <dlg> some
[10:33:50] <dlg> but shipping from eu to here sucks
[10:33:55] <Tempt> What sort of machine?
[10:35:29] <palowoda> Damn shipping and wieght is out stripping what machines are worth these days.
[10:35:55] <Tempt> Sadly, yes.
[10:36:07] <palowoda> Bricks are blocks.
[10:36:20] <Tempt> I remember when shipping SPARCstations and Ultras from the US to .au was a bargain
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[10:36:39] <Tempt> US keeps cranking shipping costs up now too
[10:36:52] <palowoda> Now they expect first class people prices for shipping.  Damn oil companies.
[10:37:00] <kaiwai> There is always freighting/shipping container
[10:37:08] <kaiwai> if you're willing to wait a few months
[10:37:36] <palowoda> Hey here in the US they are going to tax containers coming in to clean up the air.
[10:37:44] <dlg> Tempt: he didnt say
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[10:39:06] <WickedWicky> hmm
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[10:39:13] <WickedWicky> the gnome-sound-mixer doesnt work
[10:39:17] <Tempt> Not much point in shipping antique RS/6000s around
[10:39:21] <WickedWicky> but the volume manager in rhytmbox does
[10:39:22] <Tempt> WickedWicky: Let that be a lesson to you.
[10:39:27] <Tempt> WickedWicky: GNOME is EVIL
[10:39:31] <WickedWicky> yes I know
[10:39:44] <WickedWicky> Eterm does window transparancy and custom backgrounds btw
[10:39:45] <palowoda> But mine works so it doesn't matter.
[10:39:47] <WickedWicky> boiioioioioing
[10:40:01] <WickedWicky> palowoda: if it works for you then I'm a cheery and happy person
[10:40:18] <kaiwai> http://opensolaris.org/os/community/arc/caselog/2007/406/mail <-- hopefully will help the support for my webcam :)
[10:40:24] <palowoda> I need a following like you.
[10:40:51] <WickedWicky> eh
[10:40:56] <WickedWicky> you download sun studio 11
[10:40:58] <WickedWicky> you unpack it
[10:41:01] <WickedWicky> you run the installer
[10:41:03] <WickedWicky> Sun Studio 10
[10:41:04] <WickedWicky> To use this installer you will need to be the system's root user.
[10:41:15] <WickedWicky> nevermind the user warning, but why does it show SunS tudio 10?
[10:41:40] <palowoda> WickedWicky: Studio 11 is in Opensolaris already why are you screwing around?
[10:41:47] <WickedWicky> it isnt
[10:41:50] <WickedWicky> it's 12
[10:42:04] <palowoda> Than use 12.
[10:42:18] <WickedWicky> then I get told how what I use is not supported
[10:42:27] * WickedWicky tries to compile onnv
[10:42:35] <palowoda> opensolaris doesn't have support
[10:42:40] <richlowe> To compile onnv more recent than onnv_45-ish, you want Studio11
[10:42:42] <WickedWicky> not support support
[10:42:45] <richlowe> not 10, not 12.
[10:42:50] <WickedWicky> yes, that
[10:42:55] <richlowe> though 12 mostly works, with the right incantations.
[10:42:59] <WickedWicky> and since my box crashes at random
[10:43:06] <WickedWicky> I wanna use the prefered compiler and retry
[10:43:19] <palowoda> your box has random crashes why?
[10:43:42] <WickedWicky> kernel panics due to things happening in the red zone
[10:43:46] <WickedWicky> god knows what that means
[10:44:04] <WickedWicky> sec
[10:44:05] <palowoda> what the heck is a red zone?
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[10:45:05] <Tempt> palowoda: Something women have once a month
[10:45:25] <palowoda> Tempt: Now that is something I can understand.
[10:45:52] <palowoda> I thought I was losing my mind.
[10:46:30] <WickedWicky> http://rafb.net/p/OCi5VC60.html
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[10:48:57] <palowoda> WickedWicky: What version of OS are you running?
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[10:49:27] <WickedWicky> It happens in nv69 and the onnv sources I compiled myself as of 30/07/2007
[10:49:54] <palowoda> Can you reproduce it?
[10:49:59] <WickedWicky> no
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[10:50:03] <WickedWicky> I dont knwo what triggers it
[10:50:13] <palowoda> Oh well that helps.
[10:50:41] <kaiwai> hmm, red zone - as apposed to a pink zone?
[10:50:42] <WickedWicky> as much as my manager helps during escalations
[10:50:47] <WickedWicky> I guess!
[10:50:48] <palowoda> Did you save the crash?
[10:51:36] <WickedWicky> I have the unix.* and the vmcore.*
[10:51:51] <WickedWicky> the pastbin came from mdb
[10:52:11] <palowoda> Who gives a two be crap about managers.  Ok did you log a bug and offer to supply the crashdumps?
[10:52:24] <palowoda> s/be/bit
[10:52:32] <WickedWicky> not yet, I first want to see what happens when I use the prefered compiler
[10:53:26] <palowoda> Oh heck you can get the Studio 11 from a pervious old version of opensolaris say something around build 62.
[10:53:37] <WickedWicky> I have SS11, it's installing now
[10:53:56] <richlowe> palowoda: it'd have the wrong patches though, I Think.
[10:54:44] <WickedWicky> even when I download it from http://www.opensolaris.org/os/community/tools/sun_studio_tools/sun_studio_11_tools/ ?
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[10:55:13] <richlowe> WickedWicky: no, I was referring to palowoda's suggestion.
[10:55:14] <palowoda> richlowe: Alright which patch level of studio 11 is proper for kernel builds?
[10:55:38] <kaiwai> hmm
[10:55:51] <richlowe> palowoda: http://opensolaris.org/os/community/on/flag-days/pages/2007080202/
[10:55:52] 
[10:56:02] <richlowe> but they may not have tarballs with that up yet.
[10:56:18] <richlowe> (unless that's the same rev they've sent heads-up's about 3 times already)
[10:56:49] <palowoda> richlowe: Don't you just hate it when they put Sun internal directories in the names?
[10:57:12] <richlowe> No, I hate it when they don't put a publicly accessible link there too.
[10:57:16] <Gman> http://dlc.sun.com/osol/advocacy/svosug/
[10:57:25] <Gman> ^ latest recording from the svosug
[10:57:45] <palowoda> richlowe: As usual.
[10:57:46] <richlowe> and yeah, that is a different rev.
[10:58:13] <palowoda> Some problems are so simple it stinks.
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[11:00:17] <CIA-17> lg150142: PSARC 2007/406 USB device reset, 4904724 client drivers should be able to request a port reset
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[11:00:25] <palowoda> I have an idea maybe the BOD can lend a hand in fixing some of the problems. :)
[11:05:38] <palowoda> Chord of F I guess
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[12:22:42] <Gekkko> heeeeyy
[12:25:30] <trochej> Hooo
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[12:59:39] <flyingparchment>  does tier 1/tier 2 support refer to the number of sockets?
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[13:07:14] <Gekkko> anyone feeling bored and have Flash?
[13:08:32] <flyingparchment> ah!  finally!  i got a sun quote with the correct price
[13:09:15] <Gekkko> OOH a binary licence!
[13:09:19] <Gekkko> http://www.opensolaris.org/os/licensing/opensolaris_binary_license/
[13:09:28] <cmihai> flyingparchment: most Sun stuff is socket not core based
[13:09:29] <flyingparchment> the binary license is for the binary-only components
[13:09:49] <flyingparchment> cmihai: yeah, it says "tier 1, up to 2 sockets" so i was wondering if the tier was something else
[13:10:13] <Gekkko> flyingparchment: no shit
[13:10:13] <Gekkko> lol
[13:10:44] <flyingparchment> Gekkko: you seemed surprised such a thing would exist
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[13:11:04] <Gekkko> I was suprised that an OpenSolaris version existed.
[13:11:34] <flyingparchment> it's different than the SX license, that one doesn't let you redistribute
[13:11:42] <flyingparchment> which wouldn't be very useful to opensolaris distributions
[13:11:59] <cmihai> (h) Software is not designed, licensed or intended for use in the design, construction, operation or maintenance of any nuclear facility and Sun and its licensors disclaim any express or implied warranty of fitness for such uses.
[13:12:04] <cmihai> That's stupid.
[13:12:08] <Gekkko> ROFL
[13:12:12] <Gekkko> Nuclear facility?
[13:12:18] <flyingparchment> cmihai: i see that so often i assume there's some legal requirement to say that..
[13:12:34] <Gekkko> I think I know why.
[13:12:42] <Gekkko> They don't want their company clouded when the reactor melts.
[13:12:55] <cmihai> flyingparchment: must be some silly American law
[13:12:55] <Gekkko> Because it will.
[13:13:01] <cmihai> I see that in Oracle licenses
[13:13:04] <flyingparchment> Gekkko: so you're saying solaris isn't reliable??!??
[13:13:11] <Gekkko> no.
[13:13:16] <Gekkko> I'm saying idiots will press the wrong buttons.
[13:13:16] <flyingparchment> cmihai: i prefer the bit about exporting it to libya
[13:13:19] <Gekkko> and Sun will get the spin.
[13:13:20] <Cyrille> I think the legal term for that is covering your ass.
[13:13:25] <flyingparchment> cmihai: as if that's going to stop the terrorists
[13:13:26] <cmihai> "I am not a terrorist, or from Iraq / Iran / whaatever and will not use this to make nukes"
[13:13:43] <cmihai> flyingparchment: yeah, you must swear you won't use it to blow people up :-)
[13:13:51] <cmihai> Like terrorists use Oracle or something, pff
[13:13:55] <cmihai> We all know they use Linux :D
[13:14:03] <flyingparchment> insert into targets(location, time) ...
[13:14:05] <Gekkko> I solemnly swear to not use this Sun product to cause maming and mass goring of my enemies.
[13:14:22] <Gekkko> Terrorists use Windows Vista, dar.
[13:15:04] <Cyrille> then we're safe.
[13:15:35] <Gekkko> hmm
[13:15:43] <Gekkko> how small is a minimum build of SXCE?
[13:15:52] <cmihai> You will not use the Programs for, and will not allow the Programs to be used for, any purposes prohibited by United States law, including, without limitation, for the development, design, manufacture or production of nuclear, chemical or biological weapons of mass destruction.
[13:15:56] <flyingparchment> build or install?
[13:16:02] <Gekkko> buikd.
[13:16:05] <Gekkko> build*
[13:16:14] <flyingparchment> Gekkko: there's only one, it's .. 5 CDs now, i think?
[13:16:25] <flyingparchment> cmihai: so i can't use it to run my dutch coffee shop?
[13:16:33] <cmihai> Nope
[13:16:37] <Gekkko> Please refer to the Currently Known Issues page for the minimum build of Solaris Express, Community Edition required to build ON from source.
[13:16:42] <WickedWicky> Isn't Sun saying proudly how they deliver machines to the U.S. army?
[13:16:46] <flyingparchment> Gekkko: that means "oldest"
[13:17:01] <flyingparchment> like the oldest build that'll work
[13:17:10] <Gekkko> oh.
[13:17:11] <Gekkko> shit.
[13:17:15] <Gekkko> misread that like a pro.
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[13:23:01] <flyingparchment> i wish sun wouldn't assume i speak german because i went to the german site
[13:25:35] <Berny> thats the point of the german site...
[13:25:53] <Berny> it's meant for people in germany speaking a little german :-)
[13:26:01] <flyingparchment> Berny: i want Germany the land, not Germany the sprache
[13:26:10] <flyingparchment> now i got a java backtrace from the site :)
[13:26:28] <Berny> oh well the german site speaks german 8-)
[13:26:35] <Berny> need a translation?
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[13:31:51] <Gekkko> VMWare runs on Solaris does it not?
[13:32:00] <Cyrille> not
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[13:32:11] <Gekkko> whyy
[13:32:11] <Cyrille> solaris runs on VMware though
[13:32:14] <quasi> Gekkko: no
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[13:32:18] <Cyrille> ask VMware
[13:32:23] <Gekkko> oh
[13:32:28] <Gekkko> it's just because they're wankers
[13:32:29] <Gekkko> alright
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[13:32:33] <Gekkko> what's a good alternative?
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[13:32:41] <Cyrille> well they support is a guest but not as a host.
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[13:33:05] <Berny> which lib provides inet_aton on sol7 again?
[13:33:15] <flyingparchment> nsl
[13:33:18] <flyingparchment> hmm
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[13:33:24] <flyingparchment> actually, isn't inet_aton the one solaris doesn't have?
[13:33:25] <Gekkko> Cyrille: huh?
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[13:33:30] <flyingparchment> use inet_pton instead, it does the same thing
[13:34:08] <Cyrille> Gekkko, they support Solaris as a guest (you can install Solaris on a virtual machine) but not as a host (you cannot install VMware products on Solaris).
[13:34:29] <Gekkko> oh yeah I understand that
[13:34:37] <Cyrille> so why the "huh?"
[13:34:38] <Cyrille> ?
[13:34:39] <Gekkko> I want to run a vmware type product in Solaris?
[13:34:47] <Gekkko> because I didn't understand your sentence :P
[13:35:16] <quasi> Gekkko: can't be done as vmware hasn't ported their junk to solaris
[13:35:21] <Berny> na it's in libresolv
[13:35:38] <Gekkko> quasi: a virtual machine product then
[13:35:45] <flyingparchment> Gekkko: most people recommend (k)qemu
[13:35:46] <Cyrille> ah indeed I wrote "is a" instead of "it as a", sorry about that.
[13:35:48] <Gekkko> that's what I mean't, like qemu or vmware, anything
[13:35:53] <flyingparchment> i guess Xen will be an alternative soon
[13:35:54] <Gekkko> but qemu has a tendency to piss me off.
[13:36:06] <Cyrille> Xen maybe. Virtual Box I think exists too.
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[13:40:18] <flyingparchment> wabi!
[13:40:55] <Gekkko> VirtualBox is shit
[13:41:01] <Gekkko> absolute unstable shit.
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[13:45:53] <Gekkko> Bluray and OpenSolaris?
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[13:49:11] <flyingparchment> i doubt there's a blu-ray decoder (yet)
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[13:49:53] <oxygene> flyingparchment: it would be interesting for data storage
[13:50:16] <flyingparchment> are there writable ones yet?
[13:50:30] <flyingparchment> by decoder i meant for films, i've no idea about just reading the media
[13:50:56] <delewis> the keys for Blu-Ray are known now.
[13:51:05] <flyingparchment> the keys they just changed?
[13:51:11] <flyingparchment> or was that hddvd?
[13:51:32] <delewis> HD-DVD was found first, I think, but the same method was used to find the key for Blu-Ray.
[13:51:48] <flyingparchment> i thought they changed the hddvd key for all new discs
[13:51:52] <delewis> the keys can change, but the method for finding the key will always be the same from my understanding.
[13:51:56] <flyingparchment> mmh
[13:52:00] <flyingparchment> so stupid
[13:52:03] <delewis> yep.
[13:52:31] <oxygene> delewis: unless it's "exploit a bug in the player" - eventually you might run out of bugs to exploit
[13:52:44] <Gekkko> never.
[13:52:47] <flyingparchment> i didn't really follow it, but i thought the guy just read the key from memory with a debugger
[13:52:53] <flyingparchment> or something like that
[13:52:54] <Gekkko> by the time there's no bugs, a new medium emerges
[13:53:06] <flyingparchment> i mean, if the key is on your computer, you can always get it somehow
[13:53:11] <delewis> http://www.slyck.com/story1390.html
[13:53:12] <oxygene> flyingparchment: amd k10 "senter" opcode, intel has something similar
[13:53:20] <flyingparchment> what's next, connecting to sony.com to decode your dvd? :)
[13:53:35] <flyingparchment> oxygene: isn't senter just to change privilege level?
[13:53:54] <Berny> if that means everyone gets a decent broadband connection i'll go for that!
[13:53:59] <delewis> well, with EFI, there's no guarantee you have access to data.
[13:54:19] <delewis> EFI can trap any IO operation it wants and deny it (on the basis of the validity of the DRM associated with whatever)
[13:54:25] <flyingparchment> well, didn't someone break the xbox "hardware" protection, too?
[13:54:33] <oxygene> flyingparchment: "just" - heh.. it also kills access from a debugger
[13:55:17] <oxygene> of course, they can't rely on such security features being available for the next 3 or 4 years
[13:55:24] <flyingparchment> oxygene: windows provides all kind of hooks into the kernel :) i guess hardware protection would make it easier..
[13:55:33] <flyingparchment> but i don't believe for a moment it can't be gotten around
[13:56:01] <delewis> EFI is one thing that might challenge that, IMO.
[13:56:05] <flyingparchment> i just hope they don't go back to DIVX, even the current situation is better than that
[13:56:14] <flyingparchment> delewis: you can debug hardware.  it's just a bit harder.  ;-)
[13:56:14] <Gekkko> what's wrong with DivX?
[13:56:19] <delewis> sure you can re-flash the PROM with something appropriate, like an IEEE-1275 implementation.
[13:56:27] <flyingparchment> Gekkko: DIVX, the old pay-per-view DVD system that went bust
[13:56:33] <Gekkko> oh
[13:56:36] <Gekkko> I remember
[13:56:38] <delewis> the fact is, DRM is getting quite low-level with EFI.
[13:56:39] <Gekkko> reading something about that crap
[13:56:48] <oxygene> delewis: you just have to have an implementation for your hardware...
[13:57:24] <flyingparchment> with divx you "bought" a disc, and then the player dialled a central office every time you paid for it to charge you
[13:57:54] <delewis> oxygene: there's at least one organization that will not purchase EFI hardware (citing security reasons), and will only purchase hardware that will run LinuxBios or the effort to port would be minimal.
[13:58:28] <flyingparchment> delewis: isn't the problem only with certain EFI modules?  i mean, you could build EFI-compatible firmware without this feature?
[13:58:33] <oxygene> flyingparchment: no
[13:58:37] <delewis> flyingparchment: nope.
[13:58:44] <flyingparchment> so linuxbios couldn't support EFI calls?
[13:58:46] <delewis> Intel requires each EFI vendor to obtain a binary module from them.
[13:58:49] <oxygene> flyingparchment: getting access to the EFI spec implies signing away your right to write a free implementation
[13:58:50] <flyingparchment> wow
[13:58:56] <delewis> and then you can actually attach the "open" parts of EFI.
[13:59:06] <delewis> and Intel is free to shove whatever they want into that single, binary module.
[13:59:10] <delewis> *cough* DRM *cough*
[13:59:11] <flyingparchment> suddenly, i don't like efi so much
[13:59:16] <oxygene> flyingparchment: also current EFI implementations rely on a blackbox underneath them (though that's not part of the spec as I understand it, merely a matter of implementation)
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[13:59:47] <oxygene> but those two together pretty much force you out of the reimplement-EFI scheme
[13:59:51] <delewis> flyingparchment: yep, LANL (Los Alamos National Labs) is the organization I referred to that cannot purchase any EFI hardware, because of security reasons.
[14:00:11] <delewis> its quite scary what EFI can do (which equates to roughly what OpenFirmware can do), but Intel's intentions are behind it all.
[14:00:11] <oxygene> delewis: lanl coincidentally is the org that created linuxbios ;)
[14:00:23] <delewis> oxygene: yes, Ron Minnich has spoken about EFI several times. :-)
[14:00:39] <oxygene> delewis: one of us is working on OF-on-linuxbios, it seems
[14:00:51] <oxygene> would have been a fun project, but I picked grub2-on-linuxbios
[14:01:09] <delewis> I have a machine flashed with OpenBios+LinuxBios.
[14:01:11] <flyingparchment> i keep telling my co-volunteers that we should only buy Niagara systems because they're open source
[14:01:16] <flyingparchment> and we are "committed to open source"
[14:01:17] <delewis> I understand you guys are dumping the current OpenBios code, right?
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[14:01:21] <flyingparchment> but no-one believes me :(
[14:01:41] <oxygene> delewis: we have 3 superior OF implementations under a superior license (bsd-l) under our guard now, so yes
[14:01:55] <delewis> flyingparchment: just wait. Surely, people will become informed once they find EFI is refusing to service certain IO requests.
[14:01:59] <oxygene> delewis: a bit sad though, I spent 6 months to implement the openbios kernel *sniff* ;-)
[14:02:13] <Gekkko> I are angered!
[14:02:21] <Gekkko> Burn down the GNU temples!
[14:02:23] <Gekkko> Fanboys must burn!
[14:02:24] <delewis> oxygene: is there anything that might prevent me from throwing a card (say a PGX64) that has F-code into an OpenBios system? I've tired it and it doesn't seem to work.
[14:02:25] <Gekkko> lol
[14:02:32] <delewis> I think its not reading the option ROM on the card.
[14:02:43] <delewis> or not correctly, anyway.
[14:02:45] <flyingparchment> i have a question: why can't boot archive on sparc openboot be avoided by teaching the firmware to read ZFS?  is there some other argument in favour of the archive?
[14:02:58] <delewis> flyingparchment: complexity, I suspect.
[14:02:59] <oxygene> delewis: yep, that's part of it - when we got that far, the complete implementations came along
[14:03:27] <delewis> oxygene: oh, so is there actually an F-code interpreter in place or no?
[14:03:34] <oxygene> delewis: there is
[14:03:55] <oxygene> delewis: I'd rather suspect some OBP implementation details getting in the way - complexity for a bootarchive-free OF boot isn't too much
[14:04:18] <oxygene> once I find some time[tm] I want to do it for x86 (on grub2 first), and maybe on sparc
[14:04:58] <Gekkko> fuck me the POWER6 is fast, 4.7GHz?!
[14:05:03] <Gekkko> wtf have they been smoking.
[14:05:18] <delewis> Gekkko: UltraSPARC-T2 has a collective processing power of 89.6GHz.
[14:05:21] 
[14:05:32] <Gekkko> delewis: that's collectively.
[14:05:45] <Gekkko> :P
[14:05:55] <oxygene> prototypes at 6ghz.. didn't some freaks push up the pentium4 that high, too? (for a short time, with some _very_ dedicated cooling)
[14:06:03] <oxygene> Gekkko: sure, so what?
[14:06:03] <FrostCS> collectively the Power6 has as much sense as a sack of dog doo.
[14:06:30] <Gekkko> hmm
[14:06:32] <delewis> BM Seer has several criticisms of the POWER6 in his blog.
[14:06:34] <Gekkko> how much will a UltraSPARC-T2 cost
[14:06:42] <delewis> http://blogs.sun.com/bmseer/
[14:06:49] <FrostCS> free, T2's are free
[14:06:52] <delewis> Gekkko: I'd guarantee it'll be cheaper than a POWER6 system.
[14:07:05] <Gekkko> They aren't free
[14:07:05] <Gekkko> >_>
[14:07:09] <delewis> IBM has some very sketchy policies regarding POWER6 prices.
[14:07:24] <FrostCS> They don't have a value, I should be able to say they are free.
[14:07:47] <delewis> http://blogs.sun.com/bmseer/entry/hp_targets_some_of_power6
[14:08:02] <FrostCS> my definition for free might not be the same as yours, just as many define "open" different then everyone else
[14:08:09] <Gekkko> FrostCS: I said WILL cost, future tense
[14:08:22] <FrostCS> 100 billion dollars.
[14:08:34] <FrostCS> or $25 dollars a day
[14:08:37] <delewis> http://blogs.sun.com/bmseer/entry/performance_per_core_is_very
[14:08:47] * Gekkko rolls eyes.
[14:09:15] <FrostCS> There will also be a flood in 2009 which will destroy almost all of urban arkansas.
[14:09:23] <WickedWicky> oh noes
[14:09:50] <Cyrille> is urban arkansas somehow lower than the rest of the state?
[14:09:54] <Cyrille> or more floodable?
[14:09:58] <FrostCS> George-Leeroy will then build an ark, with 3 of each animal.
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[14:10:21] <Gekkko> "Among its features, Open Firmware provides an instruction set independent device interface. This can be used to boot the operating system from expansion cards without native initialization code."  - Meaning PC's that originally couldn't boot from USB could now?
[14:10:21] <FrostCS> Cyrille, it's a much smaller area of course.
[14:10:46] <coffman> oxygene: hey there
[14:10:59] <FrostCS> Cyrille, and it will inevitably destroy the entire US economy.
[14:11:04] <oxygene> Gekkko: if there's an extension package for it,y es
[14:11:06] <FrostCS> obviously.
[14:11:31] <delewis> Gekkko: no, that's what Fcode is all about.
[14:11:35] <delewis> its endian-dependent.
[14:11:36] <flyingparchment> Gekkko: PCs can only boot from USB because the BIOS understands USB (or the USB controller emulates it)
[14:11:48] <oxygene> hey coffman
[14:11:49] <flyingparchment> Gekkko: with fcode, the controller could tell the BIOS how to talk to it to boot
[14:11:54] <delewis> I can take a framebuffer from my pSeries (PowerPC) and throw it into my SPARC.
[14:12:08] <delewis> or if there's a suitable IEEE-1275 implementation out there for x86, I could throw it in that, as well.
[14:12:12] <oxygene> flyingparchment: to be fair, PCBIOS has this capability, too - but based on the x86 instruction set
[14:12:14] <FrostCS> Paris Hilton will marry Bobby Brown after Whitney finally gets her act together.
[14:12:15] <flyingparchment> Gekkko: like how SCSI controllers have BIOS boot firmware - except the firmware is written in forth, and the interface is much nicer
[14:13:13] <Gekkko> "There could still be a payoff, however, in the price department. Sun hasn't announced official prices for UltraSPARC T2, but promises a roster that's "starting well below $1,000." Which could mean processor power cI see.
[14:13:14] <Berny> why does forth always make me think backwards?
[14:13:16] <Gekkko> wtf
[14:13:24] <Gekkko> gah I backspaced all that >_>!
[14:13:44] <FrostCS> Cows will grow another nipple on the utter which contains lemon juice, all part of evolution.
[14:13:59] <WickedWicky> opa
[14:14:14] <WickedWicky> a nipple ready to make vodka-lime and caipirinha
[14:14:59] <oxygene> Berny: there are c-to-fcode compilers for the inflexible
[14:15:46] <Berny> i wouldn't call it exactly infexible :-)
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[14:23:18] <coffman> is there something like a out of memory killer in solaris?
[14:24:12] <hile_> eh, coffman?
[14:24:19] <Cyrille> a out of memory killer? Like an amnesiac Charles Manson or something?
[14:24:23] <flyingparchment> coffman: no
[14:24:25] <dennis> perl 5.8.8 + oracle dbi ;)
[14:24:31] <flyingparchment> coffman: when you run out of memory, you can't allocate any more
[14:24:56] <flyingparchment> which sometimes means you can't kill the thing using all the memory :)
[14:25:23] <coffman> flyingparchment: pff
[14:26:04] <Berny> while (1) fork();
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[15:34:21] * lloy0076 sigh
[15:34:26] <lloy0076> I just blew up my main computer.
[15:35:06] <lloy0076> I was replacing the CPU except the heat sink is so impossible to get off, I slipped with the screw driver (which is the only way to get it off) and it went skidding across the board.
[15:35:11] <lloy0076> ...
[15:35:24] <lloy0076> I also seemed to have bent the pins on my new CPU irrevocably.
[15:35:29] <PerterB> ouch
[15:35:33] <lloy0076> So, *sigh*, I'm down about $300-400 (aud)
[15:36:08] <PerterB> but you have gained valuable experience ;)
[15:36:21] <lloy0076> Well, I have a suspect motherboard.
[15:37:01] <lloy0076> Let's put it this way, it wouldn't bring up any of the IO or graphic subsystem. Something made it blow up.
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[15:50:12] <oxygene> hrmm.. http://trolltech.com/products/qt/gplexception MPL is in, CDDL is not *sigh*
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[16:03:45] <CIA-17> ls24207: PSARC/2007/422 Acoustic Management support under SATA module, 6556577 Need to support Advanced Acoustic Management Feature (AAM
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[16:05:43] <rasputnik> what's the holdup with b70? Is it due to be the next SXDE or something?
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[16:06:49] <quasi> rasputnik: shouldn't go out till tuesday next week iirc
[16:07:01] <quasi> so no holdup
[16:07:52] <quasi> at least I thought b69 was tuesday last week
[16:08:30] <rasputnik>  could be, i generally check on a friday but I'm sure you're right
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[16:10:49] <quasi> friday is the dvd day ;)
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[16:15:22] <rasputnik> yeah, Nevada's what I use :)
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[16:31:58] <deather> hello - the "wx" command I'm trying to run complains about "workspace" not being found in my $PATH, any idea from where I can install it?
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[17:19:55] <solar-star> Hi
[17:20:00] <solar-star> how to shut down X?
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[17:33:11] <quasi> permanently?
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[17:48:16] <solar-star> no
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[17:48:57] <andyshack> hellos :)
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[17:49:47] <wamty> http://www.c-avolio.com/uploaded_images/globalwarming.jpg
[17:49:58] <andyshack> if i grab 2 x 24 port sata cards that are happy for zfs to talk to them, am i correct in the impression that i can just keep adding a 500gig drive every week and adding that to its pool ?
[17:50:23] <PerterB> that depends on what kind of pool it is...
[17:50:29] <andyshack> oh poo
[17:50:38] <PerterB> like if it's raidz, then no
[17:50:40] <andyshack> whats sort of pool do i need to look into ?
[17:51:11] <PerterB> well, you could use raid 1, and every fortnight add a pair of mirrored disks
[17:51:29] <andyshack> ok ill snoop at it. ive 80% got my brain around zfs and its appearing to be a gift from the god to me once i can get its somplete simplicity
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[17:52:23] <oxygene> you could also add raidzs to that raid1 - you just can't extend raidzs..
[17:52:34] <andyshack> ah ill go read some more docs to get the temrinoligy right before i frustrate you all :)
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[17:54:23] <WickedWicky> kaiwai!
[17:54:31] <kaiwai> hi WickedWicky :)
[17:54:44] <kaiwai> it seems Perl 5.8.8 doesn't like me
[17:54:58] <kaiwai> god, talk about the most overly complex, convoluted build system in the known universe
[17:55:16] <kaiwai> almost as bad as Real Networks
[17:55:47] <andyshack> helpz : # man zpool
[17:55:47] <andyshack> getcwd: Permission denied
[17:56:13] <kaiwai> no problems here
[17:56:15] <kaiwai> what buid are you running?
[17:58:30] <kaiwai> damn, don't say my connection is gone up the shiiter :(
[17:58:42] <WickedWicky> you're here
[17:59:02] <kaiwai> ok, just my f*cking flat mate hogging the connection with his bittorrents'
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[17:59:42] <kaiwai> the good side, python is working really nice
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[18:00:07] <kaiwai> god knows what sun did to their build of Python - everything linked against it breaks
[18:00:16] <kaiwai> its the emo of all libraries
[18:00:45] <oxygene> kaiwai: python and libraries is a sad story, no matter which system
[18:01:04] <kaiwai> well, I compiled it using gcc - compiled xchat against it, all is sweet
[18:01:18] <kaiwai> mind you, it is python 5.5.1 though
[18:01:25] <WickedWicky> you think typing this in a terminal helps while seeing "Generating public/private dsa key pair."?
[18:01:25] <WickedWicky> couldyoupleaseprettypleasegetenoughrandombitstogeeratemykey?thankyouverymuch
[18:01:26] <oxygene> 5.5.1? doubt it
[18:01:49] <stevel> wow we must be really lagging behind :-P
[18:01:59] <stevel> we only ship 2.4.4
[18:02:08] <kaiwai> oxygene; its probably a gcc issue
[18:02:09] <sfire||mouse> m
[18:02:23] <WickedWicky> I didnt even know there was a python 5.5 branch
[18:02:31] <kaiwai> ah, you're right
[18:02:33] <kaiwai> 2.5.1
[18:02:34] <kaiwai> :P
[18:02:53] <kaiwai> Pidgin 2.1.0 works nicely :)
[18:03:06] <kaiwai> got that going with gtkspell - I hope the merge gtkspell in jds soon
[18:03:35] <WickedWicky> that or a deal with the spelling police
[18:04:13] <andyshack> sry to leave you half way through some help i have a woman to debug.
[18:04:35] <WickedWicky> good luck on that impossible mission
[18:04:40] <stevel> andyshack: those panics can be brutal
[18:04:49] <holcomb> haha
[18:04:54] <stevel> best to cut your losses, reboot, and hope for a memory leak
[18:05:01] <WickedWicky> lol
[18:05:06] <WickedWicky> dude, serious
[18:05:24] <WickedWicky> it sometimes amazes me how they can bring up crap I said two years ago
[18:06:15] <WickedWicky> "You remember how you said you dig redheads? look at that reddy there"
[18:06:17] <WickedWicky> i said that like... ages ago
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[18:07:52] <kaiwai> hmm
[18:08:03] <kaiwai> thank god I don't have that problem
[18:08:22] <WickedWicky> how's that?
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[18:10:49] <kaiwai> WickedWicky: no problems with the opposit sex
[18:11:00] <oxygene> WickedWicky: no friends that remind him about things he said to them ;)
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[18:12:59] <kaiwai> oxygene: thats assuming I were persuing the opposit sex :p
[18:13:59] <WickedWicky> kaiwai: so/
[18:14:04] <WickedWicky> kaiwai: I assumed you didnt
[18:14:10] <WickedWicky> but that has nothing to do with it
[18:14:29] <WickedWicky> your bf can still be the emo-type who will hold everything against you
[18:14:33] <WickedWicky> unless you take that role :P
[18:14:44] <kaiwai> WickedWicky: thats my role :)
[18:15:03] <WickedWicky> ah!
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[18:15:12] <kaiwai> anyway, brb
[18:15:15] <WickedWicky> k!
[18:15:19] *** kaiwai has quit IRC
[18:16:18] <WickedWicky> worse of all is that I fall for italian and south american girls... talk about the emo-type
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[18:17:08] <WickedWicky> anyway, back to on-topic: I am gonna destroy my ZFS pool
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[18:21:10] <devel1> Hello
[18:21:42] <devel1> Is there rp_filter in solaris ?
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[18:45:01] <axisys> ipfilter u mean?
[18:45:14] <axisys> in sol 10 it comes with it
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[19:03:13] <CIA-17> ls24207: 6556577 Need to support Advanced Acoustic Management Feature (AAM (fix lint)
[19:03:59] <sickness> cool, on ide too? =)
[19:07:23] <sommerfeld> last I checked, SATA only
[19:07:45] <wesolows> The case explicitly mentions that SCSI has no analogue
[19:08:03] <wesolows> Unfortunately this means we now have SCSI mode pages that make sense only for SATA.
[19:08:16] <wesolows> The whole SATA/SCSI thing has not been well thought out.
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[19:08:39] <sommerfeld> it's always bad to use the same name for multiple protocol layers....
[19:09:17] <wesolows> True, though the standards are less bad about this than the implementations.
[19:10:07] <sommerfeld> and the marketing literature
[19:10:08] <wesolows> The problem I have is that using the SCSI command protocol (the mode select/sense CDBs) with SATA devices makes absolutely no sense.
[19:10:38] <wesolows> The one aspect of the thing people nebulously call "SCSI" that SATA devices absolutely do *not* support is the command set!
[19:11:50] <wesolows> At this point things are so convoluted, with software and drivers and firmware and expander firmware all mucking with and translating and retranslating these things, that I'm just hoping SATA dies quickly and SAS drives become the universal standard.
[19:14:42] <sommerfeld> but is that really all that likely?  has always looked to me as if SAS was more likely to become/remain an obscure niche product
[19:15:18] <wesolows> As usual it depends on how insistent the vendors are to maintain high margins on products which don't cost any more to make.
[19:16:10] <sommerfeld> .. but perhaps more to design, test, etc.,
[19:16:32] <Stric> I don't see SATA going away anytime soon
[19:16:39] <wesolows> Maybe - I actually find SATA a lot more complex to deal with than SAS.
[19:16:58] <wesolows> SAS has a natural model to it; SATA seems like a collection of hacks glued together.
[19:17:10] <sommerfeld> that makes SATA a perfect match for a commodity PC
[19:17:13] <wesolows> Just look at SATA affiliations if you want a reason SATA should die.
[19:17:20] <wesolows> sommerfeld: Indeed. :-(
[19:17:29] <Triskelios> should I expect that a bug that is marked "Fixed in: snv_70" doesn't have corresponding changes in ON yet?
[19:17:50] <Triskelios> in the public gate, anyway
[19:18:14] <sommerfeld> wesolows: so my understanding is that SATA and SAS share physical/electrical layers.  is it at all plausible to build a dual-stack drive (which does both?)
[19:18:18] <wesolows> Triskelios: The Mercurial repo is sync'd with onnv_71, so no.
[19:19:04] <sommerfeld> .. because that's the only way I'd think you'd see SATA-only devices disappear.
[19:19:15] <wesolows> sommerfeld: Interesting question.  It's certainly possible to implement a device with both an STP target and an SSP target phy, but it would be a nightmare to implement the backend electronics.
[19:19:50] <wesolows> I guess I don't see any value in SATA.  If SAS drives were sold at the same prices as SATA drives, there would be no use for SATA.
[19:20:15] <wesolows> Right now the value is in their low prices, but that is certainly an artificial construct enforced by the vendors.
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[19:24:29] <stevel> triskelios: if it's a bug in ON code, and has been marked fixed in snv_70, then it should be in onnv-gate
[19:24:48] <sommerfeld> triskelios: having a bugid to look at would be useful
[19:26:33] <sommerfeld> wesolows: there's also the matter of the fact that you currently get SATA controllers free with your chipset and have to put in more chips to use SAS.  it's sort of like railway gauge; whether it's optimal is less important than whether everyone else is building to both sides of the spec.
[19:28:13] <wesolows> sommerfeld: Yes, definitely.  The HBA side is probably what keeps SATA alive.  But I suppose it's harmless enough if it's attached to dumb SATA HBAs in low-end PCs.  You'd never care about acoustic management, for example, in that scenario.
[19:28:37] <wesolows> It's when it moves into the data centre that its hackishness becomes a nightmare.
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[19:29:05] <sommerfeld> well, in a very similar market segment (DVR's) acoustic management is very important.
[19:29:05] <wesolows> And the only reason SATA is in the data centre is cost, so we're back where we started.
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[19:30:03] <wesolows> Hmm, I need to read more about this; it seems like acoustic management ought to be handled by firmware in the drives.
[19:30:36] <sommerfeld> IIRC it's a knob for noisy & fast vs quiet & slow
[19:30:45] <sommerfeld> set it once and leave it.
[19:31:01] <sommerfeld> (persistent config somewhere in the drive)
[19:31:20] <wesolows> I see - for DVRs it probably could be done in fw, but for disks it depends on things like the enclosure.
[19:31:59] <seanmcg>  or the 'SMART' firmware on SATA ?
[19:32:06] <sommerfeld> i'm not sure what you mean by that..
[19:32:15] <wesolows> Then again, if drives had vibration detectors they could self-adjust this value.
[19:33:05] <wesolows> SMART is something different - although some of the same inputs there could presumably be used to adjust the acoustics.
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[19:33:54] <flyingparchment> kaiwai: HI
[19:33:58] <kaiwai> hi
[19:34:03] <flyingparchment> kaiwai: i dislike you intensely, go away :(
[19:34:16] <wesolows> flyingparchment: Then ignore him, please.
[19:34:27] * kaiwai gives flyingparchment a big hug and kiss just to irritate him
[19:34:38] <flyingparchment> kaiwai: are you my hot sister?
[19:34:40] <sommerfeld> get a room please
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[19:36:39] <kaiwai> flyingparchment: nope
[19:36:46] <flyingparchment> kaiwai: dont kiss me then :(
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[19:37:53] <Triskelios> sommerfeld, stevel: nevermind, I think there were some commits I made to the local repo that had me confused
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[19:47:39] <WickedWicky> yellow
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[19:58:50] <sickness> sv: [ID 443358 kern.info] sv Jul  9 2007 21:08:06 (revision 11.11, 11.11.0_5.11, 07.09.2007) <- what does this kernel message mean?!?
[20:00:16] <CIA-17> lm66018: 6534456 vntsd does not recognize a listen_addr of 127.0.0.1, 6536262 vds occasionally sends out-of-order responses, 6541689 vsw_process_data_dring_pkt doesn't check the return value from allocb, 6544946 Adding non existant disk device to single cpu domain causes hang
[20:00:43] <sommerfeld> sickness: that would be a message from an "sv" driver or kernel module
[20:00:48] <sommerfeld> (never heard of that one)
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[20:01:03] <kaiwai> sounds like the release'revision
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[20:03:53] <PerterB> part of AVS, quite possibly
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[20:12:57] <dclarke> anyone here ever done much work with the Niagara servers ?
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[20:14:04] <axle_512> Is it possible to build sparc binaries w/ sun studio 12 that's running on Solaris 10 x86?  (i.e. a cross compiler?)
[20:14:19] <dclarke> no
[20:14:24] <dclarke> sorry
[20:14:38] <axle_512> dang
[20:14:39] <dclarke> I don't recall the Studio compilers ever being a 2cross compiler
[20:14:42] <axle_512> ok, thanks
[20:14:58] <dclarke> just install the Studio 11 or 12 gear on the x86 box
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[20:16:49] <e^ipi> poor code gen. aside, gcc makes a pretty fabulous cross-compiler
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[20:18:01] <oxygene> e^ipi: and gcc's code generation is not so bad anymore..
[20:18:24] <kaiwai> compiles almost anything
[20:18:36] <dclarke> if you can trust it
[20:18:50] <oxygene> dclarke: uh, now that's not so certain for sunpro either
[20:18:59] <delewis> I've seen gcc generate tons of bad code. (usually doing GMP builds)
[20:19:02] <wesolows> In some cases gcc generates better code.
[20:19:04] <oxygene> just look at that mess with "for opensolaris you need this-and-that patchlevel"
[20:19:08] <wesolows> YMMV as always
[20:19:13] <Jondice> dclarke, is active work still being done on polaris?
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[20:19:32] <kaiwai> dclarke: better than the whole thing not compiling at all
[20:19:33] <dclarke> yes
[20:19:34] <dclarke> daily
[20:19:38] <delewis> and I'm skeptical about certain aspects of gcc, such as its ability to do prefetch optimization, which is something Sun Studio does very well from my experience.
[20:20:16] <delewis> err_print is nice, too, especially when you're wanting a steady-cycle count of a certain loop.
[20:20:43] <kaiwai> delewis: depends on how much optimisation one wants, I'm satisfied with -Os
[20:20:58] <Jondice> dclarke, cool, I was curious because i've got an apple cluster, and I would like to ditch OS X on it sometime next year
[20:21:10] <dclarke> plan for three years from now
[20:21:11] <oxygene> "Integer constants written in binary are now supported as a GCC extension." and I thought gcc was about to kill all its extensions *sigh*
[20:21:27] <Jondice> fair enough, anything is better than OS X i think
[20:21:30] <delewis> kaiwai: you have no clue what I'm talking about.
[20:21:43] <hile_> and this is different from normal how?
[20:21:59] * kaiwai shrugs
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[20:22:44] <dclarke>                 === gcc Summary ===
[20:22:45] <Jondice> i would almost consider paying for leopard licenses if apple hadn't already pissed me off so much
[20:22:46] <dclarke> # of expected passes            40883
[20:22:47] <dclarke> # of unexpected failures        107
[20:22:49] <dclarke> # of unexpected successes       3
[20:22:51] <dclarke> # of expected failures          127
[20:22:52] <dclarke> # of unresolved testcases       1
[20:22:53] <dclarke> # of untested testcases         35
[20:22:55] <dclarke> # of unsupported tests          488
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[20:22:57] <dclarke> /opt/build/gcc-4.2.1-build/gcc/xgcc  version 4.2.1
[20:23:00] <dclarke> sorry for the flood .. but ..
[20:23:08] <dclarke> I just don't know why GCC bootstrap can not pass the required tests
[20:23:13] <delewis> pick an arbitrary version and build GMP.
[20:23:18] <delewis> then do a 'gmake test'
[20:23:19] <dclarke> of unexpected failures 107
[20:23:21] <delewis> there's a good chance it'll fail.
[20:23:38] <hile_> dclarke: please pastebin stuff like that
[20:23:41] <delewis> a chance that's so high, even the GMP developers warn you about gcc.
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[20:24:15] <delewis> http://gmplib.org/
[20:24:29] <reflect> if you build a zpool consisting of two groups of raidz disks, say 3+1 and 3+1.. how do you later add a complete new group of 3+1? or do you have to keep adding disks one and one?
[20:24:37] <oxygene> delewis: any experience with llvm compiling gmp?
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[20:25:11] <delewis> oxygene: nope.
[20:25:43] <catena> i have only 512mb ram. is there any way to force installation of sxde?
[20:25:54] <richlowe> install SX:CE, then install studio.
[20:26:04] <PerterB> reflect: zpool add <poolname> raidz d1 d2 d3 d4
[20:26:10] <richlowe> the memory requirements of the DE install are purely install junk.
[20:26:48] <catena> richlowe, you mean to install the solaris express first?
[20:26:59] <reflect> PerterB: ah, excellent.. was looking at the manpage and it didn't mention you could do that with add (or I misread). thank you
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[20:28:30] <PerterB> you can put any vdev definition there... so you could add a raid1 pair to your existing two raidz if you really wanted
[20:28:42] <sommerfeld> reflect: the former.  add another set of 4
[20:29:08] <reflect> yes.. once you realize it, it's quite logical it should be the same syntax as for creating the zpool in the first place
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[20:29:53] <PerterB> ironically most people seem to want the latter (ie add a single drive to an existing raidz)
[20:30:04] <reflect> really?
[20:30:07] <dclarke> I think my T2000 is lying to me : http://rafb.net/p/Ui9nb142.html
[20:30:14] <sommerfeld> or, well, most people who have small numbers of disks
[20:30:17] <PerterB> well, "small system" users :)
[20:30:24] <PerterB> right
[20:30:24] <reflect> ah :)
[20:30:39] <PerterB> but that's quite a few of the linux refugees
[20:30:55] <sommerfeld> but for small systems, IMHO you're better off with mirrors
[20:31:06] * reflect is building a semi-big system
[20:31:07] <dclarke> anyone know how to clear a fault on a T2000 and then re-run diags?  The only service manual I can find is for the T1000 and .. it *may* be the same .... maybe
[20:31:34] <hile_> ask your SSE
[20:31:47] <dclarke> yeah right
[20:31:50] <dclarke> like I have one
[20:31:56] * sommerfeld has a 44-spindle ZFS pool
[20:32:03] <PerterB> sommerfeld: agreed (my own systems are all mirrors) but it seems to be something they want
[20:33:18] <quasi> dclarke: most likely it is the same as t1k
[20:33:37] <dclarke> I guess ...
[20:34:00] <dclarke> this machine claims I have a faulty DIMM .. but when I move the DIMM .. the error does not move with it
[20:34:12] <dclarke> so .. something fishy there
[20:34:13] <quasi> not very likely that you're going to brick the box by choosing the wrong command
[20:34:21] <quasi> maybe the socket?
[20:37:44] <dclarke> yeah .. maybe .. but why would a DIMM slot suddenly go bad
[20:38:07] <dclarke> somehow I wish that I had never run the detailed maximum verbosity diags
[20:38:43] <reflect> when I add a single disk to a raidz pool, it attaches itself "outside" of the raidz.. like a single disk.. how do you actually merge it into the raidz? (or am I just reading the output from zpool status wrong?)
[20:38:59] <WickedWicky> you dont, afaik
[20:39:28] <reflect> aha
[20:39:42] <reflect> so you really want to always add a group to your zpool, never any single disks
[20:39:45] <WickedWicky> it would be quite something if it was possible as well. since you'd have to rewrite every block taking the extra stripe set in account
[20:40:09] <WickedWicky> as pointed out earlier, it's better to add mirrors
[20:40:16] <reflect> well, why not.. it does it with all the new files you write.. it could do it slowly in the background :)
[20:40:31] <PerterB> WickedWicky: other volume managers can re-layout raid5 (well, Veritas can at least)
[20:40:35] <WickedWicky> yea
[20:40:39] <WickedWicky> linux could as well
[20:40:53] <WickedWicky> but your data would be offlined
[20:40:57] <WickedWicky> during the process
[20:41:03] <PerterB> yuck
[20:41:06] <WickedWicky> and when you have a crash, you render your data scattered over the disks
[20:41:21] <PerterB> typical Linux :)
[20:41:44] <WickedWicky> the way linux did it is reading a block, put it in memory, and redistribute the block over the new stripe set
[20:42:01] <wesolows> you're joking, right?
[20:42:03] <WickedWicky> no
[20:42:08] <wesolows> what happens if the power fails?
[20:42:17] <WickedWicky> as I said: you have your data scattered over the disks
[20:42:22] <WickedWicky> let me look up the tool for yoyu
[20:42:57] <wesolows> I understand that the data's still there.  What I don't understand is how you can find it, since the LVM logic can't keep track of what's where.
[20:43:10] <PerterB> in theory zfs should be able to manage that process very reliably due to the way it doesn't commit a new uberblock until the underlying changes are committed
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[20:43:13] <WickedWicky> http://unthought.net/raidreconf/index.shtml
[20:43:26] <wesolows> PerterB: Yes, ZFS might have enough information to do it.  Still hard, though.
[20:43:32] <PerterB> still complicated to implement though
[20:43:34] <PerterB> snap :)
[20:43:48] <wesolows> "However: it is very likely that there are serious bugs that will destroy your data, possibly even on disks not related directly to the array you are re-configuring."
[20:43:58] <wesolows> Sounds production ready to me.
[20:44:08] <PerterB> "it compiles... ship it!"
[20:44:09] <WickedWicky> at work we have C-Core media streamers that can do on the fly RAID expansion. But the policy is that you keep 1/4th of the current write space unused, for migration purposes
[20:44:45] <WickedWicky> it runs some obscure OS though. Transit
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[20:45:36] <WickedWicky> anyway, it should be possible, theoraticly.. as long as you have a way to keep track which block is moved to where
[20:45:54] <WickedWicky> but you should really have balls and lots of coffee to pull that one off IMO
[20:46:18] <wesolows> Right - and a volume manager (ie, pre-ZFS software RAID) doesn't.  It can't.
[20:46:58] <WickedWicky> I prefer mirror over raid5 anyway, since I write lots of small chunks
[20:47:05] <WickedWicky> so mirror gives me better performance
[20:48:13] <WickedWicky> the video streamers I was talking about use RAID6 with large chunk sizes, since the files stored are MPEG2 and MPEG4 files and the server has seperate CPUs to calculate checksums
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[20:58:12] <dclarke> arggg ... http://sunsolve.sun.com/data/819/819-3248/pdf/819-3248-10.pdf
[20:58:20] <dclarke> description The requested resource () is not available.
[20:58:24] <dclarke> arghhh ..
[20:59:35] <dclarke> is sunsolve borked again ?
[20:59:52] <dclarke> I'm just trying to find the ALOM manuals
[20:59:56] <dclarke> Advanced Lights Out Management (ALOM) CMT v1.3 Guide for example
[20:59:58] <WickedWicky> same error here
[21:00:01] <dclarke> better yet .. 1.4
[21:01:14] * kaiwai prefers to leave the lights on
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[21:14:06] <Triskelios> what's the status of getting Studio 12 to work with ON?
[21:14:24] <wesolows> not done
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[21:15:44] <dclarke> but by all means take a kick at it
[21:15:46] <dclarke> I did
[21:15:52] <dclarke> and .. it was educational
[21:16:03] <dclarke> I leanred that "this does not quite work yet"
[21:16:14] <dclarke> and was pretty fascinated by that result too
[21:16:34] <dclarke> but Studio 11 "just works"
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[21:17:26] <dclarke> so what is the moral like inside Sun these days ?  I am trying to figure out why the comapny is dropping head count ( again ) while posting a nice healthy profit.
[21:17:53] <wesolows> My morale is fine.  I don't know about anyone else's.
[21:18:39] <dclarke> I was chatting on the hpone with someone that has been down there 15 years and he said that back in 2002 it was like someone dropped a bomb in silicon valley
[21:18:52] <dclarke> the highways went from being packed to .. no big deal in a matter of months
[21:18:53] <wesolows> that's fair
[21:19:08] <dclarke> I was stunned
[21:19:16] <wesolows> and yes, I did notice a dramatic decrease in traffic, though it's never been anything less than terrible
[21:19:22] <dclarke> I never realized it was that big an impact
[21:19:51] <wesolows> it wouldn't have been except that so many of the people who got the axe also got sent home
[21:22:03] <wesolows> If I'm anything to go by, bust survivors also came away with some seemingly weird ideas.  Like, I don't like getting raises because the people paid the most are the most likely to get laid off.  Better to earn less but escape a purge.
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[21:22:35] <dclarke> ahhh .. yes
[21:22:45] <dclarke> we have that expression up here also
[21:23:04] <dclarke> we say "first pig to the trough .. is first pig to the slaughter"
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[21:23:27] <wesolows> yep
[21:23:50] <wesolows> well, it's not even that there's greed involved - it's more a desire not the be the tall blade of grass when the mower comes along
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[21:25:03] <dclarke> I hear ya ..
[21:25:55] <wesolows> Our labour markets are flexible enough that I think companies could save themselves some money by offering top-rated employees a guaranteed employment term with smaller than normal raises (or none at all).
[21:26:04] <wesolows> I know I'd take it, if offered.
[21:26:29] <kaiwai> I'd love to know something that does compile
[21:26:46] <wesolows> kaiwai: Huh?
[21:26:57] <kaiwai> xine-lib doesn't compile - as per usual
[21:27:57] <wesolows> I hate to say this, kaiwai, but I don't even pay attention to your tales of woe any longer.  I'm sure some of them are legit, but you have so many problems that no one else does that I'm not going to bother going off and investigating problems you report.
[21:28:23] <wesolows> I care about fixing problems, but it's too hard to tell whether yours are pilot error.
[21:28:42] <kaiwai> na, its code error
[21:28:55] <kaiwai> there is no patch available to make 1.1.7 compatible with Solaris
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[21:34:00] <richlowe> dmarker: 3 in a week? sheesh.
[21:34:27] <wesolows> backouts are increasingly frequent on the ghost ship
[21:34:54] <richlowe> it's not that they're backouts.
[21:35:01] <richlowe> it's that their backouts because people totally ignored the process.
[21:35:05] <wesolows> yep
[21:35:08] <richlowe> someone needs to crack skulls
[21:35:13] <wesolows> there's no one to crack them
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[21:35:19] <wesolows> it's a ghost ship
[21:35:44] <elektronkind___> a ghost ship in what way?
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[21:36:46] <wesolows> there doesn't seem to be the same kind of strong technical leadership we've often enjoyed in the past
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[21:37:41] <richlowe> plus, it's our gate, any of us could crack skulls.
[21:37:54] <wesolows> not really
[21:37:59] * richlowe points dmarker at 'workspace access' and nods
[21:38:21] <Triskelios> kaiwai: actually, I'm sitting on the patches for xine-lib
[21:38:26] <wesolows> a lot of people these days only really care what their managers think, the exact opposite of the past when no one even cared who his manager was
[21:38:43] <kaiwai> Triskelios: oh
[21:38:52] <dclarke> oh God .. that is scary
[21:39:03] <Triskelios> kaiwai: one sec
[21:39:16] <Triskelios> kaiwai: I haven't updated in like a month, so they might not apply cleanly
[21:39:40] <dmarker> yes, its been an epidemic lately
[21:40:08] <Triskelios> kaiwai: http://trisk.acm.jhu.edu/xine-lib/patches/
[21:40:18] <wesolows> It wouldn't make me unhappy if people who do this are told they can no longer putback, and have to go through the sponsor process instead.
[21:40:35] <richlowe> It would make me slightly unhappy, because of the whole sponsor process.
[21:40:39] <richlowe> if you really want to punish people, make them use b.o.o
[21:40:44] <wesolows> Indeed, at some point that will presumably be required of all new Sun employees doing work on OpenSolaris anyway.
[21:40:49] <blueandwhiteg3_> hey, i have a strange problem with solaris... it doesn't seem to be accepting any input from the GUI
[21:41:01] <blueandwhiteg3_> specifically the GUI network control panel
[21:41:11] <blueandwhiteg3_> I've set it to a static IP, yet it is still using DHCP
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[21:41:19] <dclarke> I have three files here with seriously screwed up dates on them, called a136b77.apt a136b75a.apt a143e43.apt. Is there a 64-bit way to touch them ? To fix the date is my intention but I do not see a 64-bit compiled ver of touch or chown
[21:41:22] <richlowe> wesolows: because that'd just mean their officemate screwed up in their place.
[21:41:39] <dmarker> its kind of sad, because the RTI was fine, and would have been approved (probably is at this point), but after the fact process is not good enough
[21:41:46] <Triskelios> kaiwai: most of those are optional, though... but feel free to try to get the solaris-specific ones committed, I've been too busy
[21:42:30] <kaiwai> Triskelios: basically its a asprint or something like that error, I'll have a look through them
[21:42:44] <wesolows> richlowe: Well, the idea is that only people with proven understanding of the process and a successful track record are allowed to putback - just like in every other team in the universe.
[21:42:58] <wesolows> richlowe: If his officemate screws up instead, he goes on probation too.
[21:43:00] <kaiwai> I'll give mplayer a go first
[21:43:05] <Jondice> dclarke, just curious ... why would it matter if touch was 64bit?
[21:43:56] <wesolows> Probation is probably appropriate for anyone who is backed out once because of failure to follow process, or twice for "needs more work" type stuff.
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[21:44:16] <wesolows> It could last 3 months or 2 successful integrations.  Pick the numbers you like.
[21:44:46] <Triskelios> kaiwai: oh yuck, that's a new bug
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[21:45:16] <kaiwai> yeap, its horrid and scary
[21:45:25] <kaiwai> its enough to make anyone go emo
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[21:49:53] <dmarker> heya mark
[21:49:57] <mjnelson_laptop> howdy
[21:49:59] <Triskelios> kaiwai: actually no... it's a bug I already fixed, guess it was committed after 1.1.7. xine-lib after changeset 8858:09ecd1c6d5b8 from the hg repository should work
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[21:51:30] <kaiwai> Triskelios: its kinda annoying the ship things that are broken
[21:51:51] <asdx> how is opensolaris for a regular desktop
[21:52:34] <kaiwai> no worse than linux
[21:52:57] <Triskelios> I'm happy with SXCE
[21:54:36] * quasi too
[21:56:00] * sickness seconds that
[21:56:08] * holcomb fourths that
[21:56:20] * sickness lols that :P
[21:56:32] * seanmcg goes all in
[21:56:45] <seanmcg> texas hold'em right ?-)
[21:57:00] <holcomb> i can has b70?
[21:57:21] <sickness> ?
[21:57:28] <asdx> i been using linux for about 7 years now, but im currently disliking how everyone seems a moron this days *cough* andrew morton *cough*
[21:58:29] <kaiwai> asdx: mate, I stopped using Linux around 10 years ago
[21:58:50] <kaiwai> back before the linux hype,and the fanboys, and the parasites
[21:59:39] <richlowe> mjnelson: so, are you going to yell at the folks ignoring the process?
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[22:00:20] <mjnelson> Generally the only public response you'll see are the backout notices.
[22:00:23] <CIA-17> dm120769: backout 4904724: RTI not approved
[22:00:28] <holcomb> whoa
[22:00:31] <asdx> i want to use an opreating system without the ridiculous flamewars, morons and religions crap behind it, some bsd's attracts me thought, but now linux is working well for me, except that i don't like these morons with egos
[22:00:48] <richlowe> mjnelson: I didn't ask if it was going to be done in public.
[22:00:52] <mjnelson> ah
[22:00:53] <holcomb> i don't think any os is without ego
[22:00:53] <richlowe> mjnelson: I asked if it was going to be done at all.
[22:01:03] <mjnelson> In an understated way.
[22:01:19] <elektronkind> asdx: you must be referring to Andrew Morton :/
[22:01:34] <mjnelson> Mostly I'm too nice, but that usually results in a shorter time between problem and resolution.
[22:01:35] <sommerfeld> generally, the only response you *need* to see is the backout notice.
[22:01:54] <mjnelson> Not all feel the appropriate shame from that, though.
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[22:02:40] <richlowe> sommerfeld: Yeah, but seemingly that isn't working.
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[22:03:23] <asdx> elektronkind: yeah, im tired of these guys with high egos, gplv2 vs gplv3 flamewars, etc
[22:03:54] <asdx> maybe i should just stop reading news
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[22:04:04] <mjnelson> richlowe: we generally only get about one putback a year without an approved RTI
[22:04:18] <mjnelson> most of the churn is from carelessness, more than willful circumvention
[22:04:20] <Jondice> asdx, I've been using it on a dell e1505 laptop, everything works easily for me except power management
[22:04:37] <Jondice> asdx, 3d acc, audio, dvd-rw, wireless
[22:04:47] <asdx> Jondice: nice
[22:05:01] <richlowe> mjnelson: Sure, but stamping on the carelessness should mean everyone stops being careless.
[22:05:03] <richlowe> mjnelson: rather than case-by-case
[22:05:24] <Jondice> asdx coming from a linux background, some things can be a bit more difficult to compile
[22:05:33] <richlowe> as was said earlier (before you joined, I think), cut 'em out of Codemgr_wsdata/access_control, and let them go back with a sponsor until they remind themselves of how this works.
[22:05:36] <dclarke> wild wild date stamps : root@granite > /usr/bin/sparcv9/ls -lap a143e04a.apt  results in
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[22:05:42] <Jondice> asdx, but that is usually the fault of the developers mostly using linux, though sometimes solaris headers can be to blame ;)
[22:05:47] <dclarke> geez .. how do I fix that ?
[22:05:48] <mjnelson> Potentially true.  I've considered, in the past, a mandatory one-week waiting period for putback after a backout.
[22:05:56] <asdx> heh
[22:06:09] <mjnelson> Long enough to threaten some people's putback target builds.
[22:07:30] * dclarke thinks phasers on stun .. I'm calling Sun service
[22:07:40] <mjnelson> But if it's my policy, then I become the escalation path, and desperate engineers line up at door with their managers, directors, and VPs in tow.
[22:08:26] <mjnelson> And they're always prepped with the story that "this decision is threatening our very livelihood, and it's arbitrary, and it's mjnelson's fault."
[22:08:39] <mjnelson> Even though none of the three parts of that are ever true.
[22:08:57] <richlowe> mjnelson: the joys of opensolaris, it's our gate, not your bosses, tell 'em to take a running jump. :)
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[22:09:14] <mjnelson> get stevel to move it outside
[22:09:21] <mjnelson> I'll be happier
[22:09:22] <mjnelson> I think
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[22:10:13] <asdx> what are some good features of opensolaris that end users would like to consider?
[22:10:33] <asdx> over other operating systems like *bsd, linux, etc
[22:10:38] <dclarke> oooh .. I'm on hold with Sun Technical support ..
[22:10:49] <dclarke> I think I'll get a gun now and play russian roulette
[22:10:55] <dclarke> no bullets loaded
[22:10:56] <WickedWicky> that bad eh
[22:11:01] <dclarke> hold music is nice ..
[22:11:30] <dclarke> once upon a time .. when I called Sun tech support it was like a warm fuzzy feelign that everything was just going to work
[22:12:00] <dclarke> its been a long long time since I called tech support however and I can not recall the last time I felt anything but cold and icky about the process
[22:12:11] <WickedWicky> last time I called them they let me listen to the overture of Willem Tell
[22:12:14] <richlowe> mjnelson: I don't think the location makes that much of a difference, but we're working on it, as you know.
[22:12:18] <Jondice> asdx, I would say zfs primarily, though it still isn't supported on a bootable partition
[22:12:20] <mjnelson> I know
[22:12:34] <richlowe> soon enough I'll have to encourage you to yell at me. ;)
[22:13:33] <mjnelson> While it's inside, it still looks/smells/feels/tastes like the old, time-honored, Sun-only gates.  It's easier for old habits to treat it as if it hasn't changed.
[22:13:36] <Jondice> i haven't checked in a while, does solaris support encrypted filesystems?
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[22:14:35] <asdx> Jondice: interesting, i should try zfs
[22:14:51] <Jondice> asdx, also nvidia drivers work out of the box due to the kernel not being under the GPL
[22:16:15] * Jondice has always been a fan of the LGPL for non commercial projects
[22:16:37] <Jondice> GPL seems good if you want to have a commercial license as well as OSS
[22:18:07] <asdx> interesting
[22:18:18] <quasi> Jondice: there's sort of crypto loop support and there's being hacked written some very comprehensive crypto support for zfs
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[22:20:49] <quasi> http://opensolaris.org/os/project/zfs-crypto/ and http://opensolaris.org/os/project/loficc/
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[22:25:41] <Jondice> asdx, brandz is nice if you want to run a linux environment inside of solaris, though it isn't perfect
[22:26:50] <holcomb> xen too
[22:26:57] <asdx> like a chroot environment?
[22:28:04] <sommerfeld> chroot plus additional isolation
[22:28:15] <quasi> asdx: way beyond chroot in security
[22:28:28] <seanmcg> seperate IP stack too :)
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[22:29:35] <asdx> interesting
[22:29:51] <asdx> i would like to give it a try, where do i download?
[22:30:07] <seanmcg> see this channel's topic
[22:30:07] <asdx> http://opensolaris.org/ just went there
[22:30:31] <seanmcg> get.opensolaris.org for kits
[22:30:38] <asdx> ok
[22:30:41] <asdx> thanks
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[22:31:03] <quasi> http://www.opensolaris.org/sxce_dvd for downloading the latest
[22:31:41] <asdx> wow, they shipt free cds?
[22:31:53] <quasi> yeah
[22:32:05] <asdx> awesome
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[22:36:57] <asdx> Order Confirmed
[22:37:34] <Triskelios> yay my new Logitech QuickCam for Notebooks Pro works, even though it's an unlisted model~
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[22:44:27] <Mdx4> I know that could be OffTopic but someone knows if there is a release date for systems with T2 Processor ?
[22:45:07] <wesolows> if it's not in a press release on sun.com, no.
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[22:45:58] <kaiwai> nice, disable network and its all good
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[22:47:07] <richlowe> wesolows: it's possible the proc is available now, they didn't announce the systems though.
[22:47:43] <mjnelson> they did a press release for the processors on Tuesday in Broomfield, CO
[22:47:46] <mjnelson> no systems announced yet
[22:48:01] <Mdx4> Thank you for the infos :)
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[22:50:05] <asdx> does OpenSolaris uses GNU utilities?
[22:50:18] <asdx> OpenSolaris is just the kernel right? or... ?
[22:50:25] <e^ipi> kernel + libc + userland
[22:50:38] <sommerfeld> it's lots more than the kernel
[22:50:40] <e^ipi> though you can strip away the userland and use GNU, like Nexenta
[22:50:53] <asdx> cool
[22:51:06] <asdx> so OpenSolaris is a complete operating system then
[22:51:11] <e^ipi> no, it's not
[22:51:20] <richlowe> it's source that could be used to build one. :)
[22:51:30] <richlowe> (except in a few places, where there's still some irritating missing bits)
[22:51:39] <coffman> re
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[22:55:41] <e^ipi> richlowe, jesus christ man, i'm working on it as fast as I can
[22:56:02] <richlowe> e^ipi: I didn't actually mean that.
[22:56:06] <richlowe> e^ipi: so you aren't. :)
[22:57:12] <richlowe> e^ipi: cpp, and bits like that, which you could replace pretty easily, but not necessarily flawlessly.
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[23:02:21] <kaiwai> asdx: basically its like FreeBSD minus the Xorg
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[23:04:07] <e^ipi> it's not at all like that
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[23:04:23] <e^ipi> if for no other reason than fbsd doesn't ship with xorg
[23:05:09] <e^ipi> and that freebsd is a full OS, and opensolaris is not, it's just some code that you can base an OS off of
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[23:05:27] <asdx> kaiwai: i see
[23:05:44] <kaiwai> asdx: there are bits not opensourced yet
[23:05:56] <kaiwai> e^ipi is working on the i18n for libc for example
[23:06:10] <kaiwai> but once that is done, a completely opensource OS independent of Sun can be done
[23:06:19] <asdx> opensolaris is under what license?
[23:06:32] <seanmcg> CDDL
[23:06:52] <e^ipi> kaiwai, that plus dis(1) on SPARC
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[23:07:42] <e^ipi> which apparantly has been re-implimented half a dozen times independently but nobody's posted any source anywhere
[23:07:57] <charlesnw> *snickers*
[23:08:41] <Gman> e^ipi, jason looks like he's close
[23:08:47] <Gman> (though no code, obviously)
[23:09:10] <richlowe> jbk posted the code somewhere, I thought.
[23:09:17] <richlowe> I think I recall him pastebinning a version.
[23:09:22] <Gman> oh, possibly
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[23:09:27] <seanmcg> asdx: more licensing info at: http://opensolaris.org/os/licensing
[23:10:24] <asdx> what is project indiana?
[23:10:33] <richlowe> an argument waiting to happen.
[23:10:40] <wesolows> a poor topic to ask about
[23:10:41] <seanmcg> waiting ?-)
[23:11:11] <e^ipi> heh
[23:11:26] <wesolows> although it looks like the answer is becoming clear: it's a Sun product, a peer of Solaris.
[23:11:49] <e^ipi> entirely divorced from community input
[23:12:04] <wesolows> see, that's the argument part.  My description was value-neutral.
[23:12:06] <seanmcg> asdx: read the indiana blurb at http://opensolaris.org/os/project/indiana and make your own mind up before hitting the mailing lists :)
[23:12:09] <Gman> i wouldn't say entirely
[23:12:14] <sommerfeld> as well as largely divorced from sun engineering input
[23:12:16] <Gman> because i know that not to be the case
[23:12:17] <kaiwai> hi Gman
[23:12:18] <asdx> seanmcg: ok
[23:12:53] <e^ipi> Gman, which is why that vote over KDE vs. GNOME went so well
[23:12:58] <seanmcg> and point all blame to Gman there :)
[23:13:02] <Gman> sommerfeld, that's also somewhat untrue
[23:13:03] <e^ipi> the one that didn't happen because SUNW decided on GNOME
[23:13:15] <richlowe> sommerfeld: Yeah, that's how I'd have phrased it.
[23:13:26] <Gman> e^ipi, yeah, well maybe we should have a vote to change the default shell to bash?
[23:13:32] <richlowe> sommerfeld: it's not divorced from 'the community' as much as "almost everyone vaguely engineer shaped"
[23:13:38] <wesolows> richlowe: sommerfeld: e^ipi: your comments can easily be factored into "lack of engineering input"
[23:13:43] <richlowe> (by which I mean, pear shaped and bearded, obviously)
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[23:13:47] <e^ipi> Gman, seems a contentious issue, so, yeah... why not
[23:14:05] <sommerfeld> gman: talking to the press about a project before you talk to an ARC is a bad idea.
[23:14:09] <sluser> pcbsd
[23:14:11] <seanmcg> asdx: see what you've started ?-)
[23:14:13] <sluser> bsd for desktop
[23:14:34] <holcomb> i like puppies.  how about that local sports team?
[23:14:42] <asdx> seanmcg: lol, did i?
[23:15:09] <asdx> seems like opensolaris is growing fast
[23:15:12] <Gman> sommerfeld, don reminded people of that fact too
[23:15:13] <asdx> damn, too bad i have to go to school :(
[23:17:05] <st3fan> finish school, don't do drugs
[23:17:09] <st3fan> hehe
[23:17:17] <sluser> PCBSD
[23:17:23] <sluser> my friends
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[23:17:38] <e^ipi> erm... okiedokie
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[23:21:40] <Triskelios> hm... the Xbox 360 Live Vision webcam panics usbvc =\
[23:23:16] <e^ipi> this type6 keyboard keeps messing with my head
[23:23:29] <e^ipi> ctl & capslock are in the wrong place
[23:23:42] <sommerfeld> triskelios: hmm.  bad sign for the T2 appearing in the next xbox :-)
[23:24:00] <sommerfeld> e^ipi: xmodmap
[23:24:10] <e^ipi> nah, i'll get used to it
[23:24:35] <e^ipi> the thing's also QWERTY, which I got used to in a couple hours
[23:26:04] <Triskelios> I thought type6 has mostly the same layout as type5?
[23:26:34] <e^ipi> it does, but it's not the same layout as my model M
[23:26:45] <e^ipi> which has the layout of "whatever i want"
[23:27:24] <Triskelios> ah
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[23:31:35] <brendang> did someone say QWERTY?
[23:31:44] * brendang is a dvorak user
[23:31:58] <Gman> (freak)
[23:31:58] <Gman> :)
[23:32:07] <brendang> we'll rule the world. you'll see.
[23:32:14] <wesolows> he neglects to mention that half his keys have also been removed
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[23:32:50] <brendang> we have a secret masonic handshake, which involves typing "dvorak rocks" *in* *dvorak*, on each other's forearms.
[23:33:42] <brendang> wesolows: keyboards have too many keys as it is. how many figures do they think humans have?
[23:33:48] <brendang> s/figures/fingers/
[23:34:45] <sommerfeld> I tried using dvorak for a summer but gave up in part because unix commands were actually less efficient on it.  ("ls" in particular uses two consecutive right-pinkie keys)
[23:35:15] <e^ipi> brendang, sweet, you & me both...
[23:35:54] <brendang> sommerfeld: ls takes some getting used to - but I now prefer it. my pinkie has learned to hit both "l" and "s" at the same time, as though it was one key.
[23:36:09] <e^ipi> it's a zen like trance, really
[23:36:53] <brendang> e^ipi: it is if you still use a qwerty labeled keyboard like I do - as you must type from memory without looking down (and getting confused by the lables)
[23:38:18] <wesolows> brendang: I don't know how many you have, but I have 112.
[23:38:40] <sommerfeld> what I really want is a type 6 das keyboard
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[23:39:54] <e^ipi> I'd take a dvorak type6 with a type7 mouse ( seriously... no wheel... not optical... type6 mouse sucks )
[23:40:08] <e^ipi> if only because of OBP
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[23:40:53] <wesolows> I dunno, I did lots of work with type 6 mice, and with type 5 mice, and even with old DEC hockey pucks.
[23:41:13] <brendang> I used the all-black das keyboard for a few months (my wife bought me one), actually wrote the performance book on it. I wanted it as I was looking for a keyboard with softer keyboard weightings, like some laptops, and I didn't care about missing labels.
[23:41:18] <sommerfeld> i've been very happy with the logitech mx310 mouse
[23:41:20] <Triskelios> I'll stick with my Logitech MX700, with all its 10 buttons
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[23:42:44] <Triskelios> speaking of which, I just realised my desk is covered in Logitech stuff now (wireless kb, mouse, speaker system, and now the webcam...)
[23:43:20] <Triskelios> kinda unsettling
[23:43:42] * elektronkind *hearts* apple mighty mouse
[23:44:00] <richlowe> it's pretty much impossible to buy a non-wheelmouse these days.
[23:44:21] <e^ipi> richlowe, evidently sun will sell them to you
[23:45:14] <e^ipi> though the type7 kit looks like it'd be decent
[23:45:24] <wesolows> The type7 stuff is very nice.
[23:45:25] <holcomb> i miss my type7 :(
[23:45:27] <wesolows> I'm using it now.
[23:45:45] <richlowe> e^ipi: the usb xbow mouse, yeah.
[23:45:55] <sommerfeld> the mighty mouse scroll trackball is too small.
[23:46:16] <holcomb> it also has a tendency to scroll to the side too easily
[23:46:37] <e^ipi> richlowe, it's generally a decent feeling mouse, it just needs a wheel
[23:46:42] <e^ipi> and ma
[23:46:47] <e^ipi> *maybe optical
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[23:48:33] <sommerfeld> when I got my parents a macintosh, i discovered very quickly that the mighty mouse was not designed for people like my mom.  she was much happier with a generic usb wheel mouse with visible buttons and a large scroll wheel.
[23:48:59] <nightswim> the mighty mouse is not designed for people
[23:50:40] <sommerfeld> brendang: why did you stop using your Das Keyboard?
[23:54:34] <brendang> sommerfeld: I moved to the US, and only took with me what fit in 2 bags.
[23:55:05] <brendang> sommerfeld: I figured I'd buy another if I started to miss it too much (I've been hoping to find one with even softer keyboard weightings).
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[23:55:45] <jbk> hello
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[23:57:51] <elektronkind> hey, question here, re: being granted Contributor
[23:58:19] <elektronkind> can only the leaders of the relevant community/project grant them, or can I con someone here into doing that for me?
[23:58:22] <jbk> e^ipi: and yes, at this point i'm really just cleaning up the code and verifying the output against the current closed source disassembler
[23:59:27] <elektronkind> Loading smf(5) service descriptions: 104/128
[23:59:28] <elektronkind> zzzzzzz
[23:59:40] <e^ipi> awesome :)
[23:59:41] <jbk> heh
[23:59:55] <e^ipi> more open = more better





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