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[00:10:36] <stevel> alanc: the former
[00:10:51] <stevel> (sorry, didn't see the message - was on another window)
[00:11:21] <alanc> thanks
[00:11:34] * stevel wonders if we should override the default template output to show the full changelog comment
[00:11:41] <alanc> trying to get the X stuff set up in hg
[00:11:51] <stevel> awesome
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[00:12:22] <stevel> preserving history, or with a clean slate?
[00:12:29] <alanc> I can already see it's a threat to what little sanity I have left, because it's so close to git (which I already use all the time for Xorg) but just slightly different enough in commands to catch me
[00:12:52] <alanc> preserving history back to our initial opensolaris release - not bothering with before that
[00:13:00] * stevel nods
[00:13:02] <stevel> same as what we did for ON
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[00:13:22] <alanc> already typed "git log" in the hg tree a half dozen times
[00:13:26] <nahamu> any sysadmins hanging out in here?
[00:13:41] <alanc> and got errors a couple times for --author where hg wants --user
[00:13:47] <stevel> you should make a wrapper (hgit?) that checks to see if it's a hg repo or git repo and makes the right call ;-)
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[00:16:23] <oxygene> or use hg-fast-export and git2hg and continue work in git ;)
[00:20:04] <myrkraverk> why doesn't firefox have a "double this tab" button?
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[00:20:23] <alanc> probably an extension out there to add it
[00:20:38] <myrkraverk> I'd hope so; seems a bit basic to me though
[00:21:25] <myrkraverk> is there any way to *reference* an ON (I think) source file, in 3rd party sources?
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[00:23:19] <theRealballchalk> how soon will we have an all-zfs only install ?
[00:23:35] <theRealballchalk> i read it has been done hackly
[00:23:47] <theRealballchalk> or hackishly
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[00:24:25] <myrkraverk> for x86, doesn't that mean zfs support in grub?
[00:25:10] <theRealballchalk> myrkraverk:  well yea i last heard zfs is not bootable
[00:25:39] <Yorokobi> theRealballchalk, NexentaCP has a ZFS boot support
[00:25:40] <tomww> witch recend zfs version and a script, you can make it booting propperly
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[00:25:55] <tomww> but: no upgrades with e.g. lifeupgrade or others
[00:26:02] <theRealballchalk> hey sup tomww
[00:26:05] <tomww> not at the moment
[00:26:14] <theRealballchalk> i see
[00:26:14] <tomww> Hi tRbc! :-)
[00:26:20] <theRealballchalk> yea haha been a while
[00:26:28] <theRealballchalk> school is kicking my behind lately
[00:26:29] <tomww> yes.
[00:26:32] <theRealballchalk> summer that is
[00:26:33] <myrkraverk> hmm, can I move my /opt to zfs?
[00:27:19] <tomww> the whole /opt? If you would just pin-point some single zfs-filesystems for e.g. /otp/SUNWspro /opt/myownsoft and so on,
[00:27:33] <tomww> then you could preserve the liveupgrade-usability
[00:27:39] <myrkraverk> isn't it just a cp -r -all-fs-flags-flag /opt /somewhere; mv /opt /opt-old; zfs -m /opt /somewhere ?
[00:27:56] <myrkraverk> tomww: ah, ok
[00:28:21] <tomww> no, liveupgrade would stop working, if you use liceupgrade then only put single non-OpenSolaris dirs on ZFS.
[00:28:39] <tomww> If you don't care, then /opt should work on zfs
[00:28:45] <EchoBinary> ive always wanted to upgrade my lice ;)   lol
[00:28:59] <tomww> man...
[00:29:14] <EchoBinary> lolol
[00:29:18] <EchoBinary> its all good
[00:29:24] <myrkraverk> tomww: ok, good point; thanks
[00:29:46] <tomww> EchoBinary: just had to translate this. *lol*
[00:30:03] * tomww loves live and liceupgrades
[00:30:09] * oninoshiko just went ahead and moved the whole system to a zfs mirror
[00:30:18] <theRealballchalk> hahaha
[00:30:29] <theRealballchalk> 'loves live"
[00:30:29] <oninoshiko>  err mirrored zpool
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[00:30:58] <EchoBinary> as opposed to dead liceupgrades
[00:31:09] <oninoshiko> i suppose its better then a dead lice upgrade (or is it?)
[00:31:12] <EchoBinary> cuz really...  who wants to upgrade a dead louse
[00:31:30] <EchoBinary> ok - moving on lol
[00:31:53] <oninoshiko> sorry echo... great minds and all...
[00:31:58] * tomww fell of his chair - too much for me
[00:32:12] <EchoBinary> MuHaaHaaHaaHaa
[00:32:45] <EchoBinary> (we can rebuild it - we have the technology)
[00:33:11] <bda> haha
[00:33:36] <tomww> :-)
[00:34:21] <tomww> I'll do a sleepupgrade now, good night to all *g*
[00:34:27] <EchoBinary> ciao
[00:34:35] <EchoBinary> sleep --well
[00:35:36] <tomww> liceactivate sleep
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[00:51:52] <schoppenhauer> hello. i maybe want to switch from debian to open solaris. maybe. just for interest. i am not running a server but a laptop or desktop-pc. i will try some live-cds i found but what i am at the moment interested most in is - i am searching for some hardware-compatibility-lists. couldnt find any myself. are there any?
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[00:54:16] <schoppenhauer> i dont know much of the opensolaris-kernel and was so far only using linux for private purposes. i am completely new to solaris and all i found so far were a few links on opensolaris.org but no compatibility lists
[00:55:28] <schoppenhauer> i would like to know about hardware-compatibilities before i do any "starter kit" or so
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[01:05:36] <jmcp> there's sun.com/bigadmin/hcl to start with
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[01:06:34] <jmcp> I think http://www.sun.com/bigadmin/hcl/data/sx is most up to date
[01:07:05] <g4lt-mordant> [1704MDT] infernal_jesus Does solaris have different themes ?
[01:07:05] <g4lt-mordant> [1704MDT] infernal_jesus is there a place where they are all listed like gnome has gnome-look.org and kde has kde-look.org
[01:07:11] <g4lt-mordant>  from #solaris
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[01:07:29] <jmcp> g4lt-mordant: ugh
[01:07:40] <jpipkin> heh
[01:07:45] <jmcp> hi jpipkin
[01:07:46] <g4lt-mordant> perfect for project indiana, let all of the theme-kiddiez at opensolaris just like all of the linux-kiddiez
[01:07:56] <jpipkin> evening
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[01:10:34] <jmcp> it really beats me how the them-kiddiez don't understand that gnome is gnome is pretty much dammnit gnome and themes from gnome.org should just plain bloody work on Solaris, too
[01:11:04] <jmcp> golly
[01:11:14] <g4lt-mordant> maybe he wants to theme CDE ;P
[01:11:24] <jmcp> just reading alanc's "what is opensolaris" thread and came across one of Brian Gupta's comments ... there's a Sobuntu now?
[01:11:28] <jpipkin> haha
[01:11:41] <jmcp> g4lt-mordant: that would make just as much sense, too
[01:12:07] <g4lt-mordant> oh.  my.  ghod!  sobuntu?!
[01:12:12] <spenser> quick question. does zfs in opensolaris have more features than solaris 10? i have solaris 10 installed and there is no shareiscsi property. the only thing i can figure is that it's not implemented yet. i have seen where people have set the property and i was wondering if they must be using opensolaris.
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[01:12:18] <jmcp> yes
[01:12:39] <jmcp> spenser: opensolaris code is what Solaris Express comes from directly, and s10 has to have a backport done
[01:12:55] <jmcp> spenser: which s10 update release are you running?
[01:12:57] <alanc> the marketing & branding people are currently deep in debate over whether JDS should be renamed "Solaris GNOME Desktop" or "Solaris Desktop Environment" or "GNOME", since JDS just confuses too many people into thinking it's not really GNOME
[01:13:13] <spenser> jmcp: base install.
[01:13:14] <jpipkin> geeze.
[01:13:21] <jmcp> spenser: nope, that's not what I asked
[01:13:34] <jmcp> spenser: an Update Release of Solaris 10 is, eg, Solaris 10 update 3
[01:13:34] <tsoome1> just remove this gnome and no problems with name:P
[01:13:35] <spenser> jmcp: apparently my account information is hosed and it won't let me log on to do any updates
[01:13:36] <alanc> and I thought Sobuntu was a poke at Indiana's attempt to Ubuntu-ize OpenSolaris
[01:13:54] <jmcp> spenser: I would ask that you run "uname -a" but that might be problematic for you then
[01:13:57] <jmcp> alanc: ah
[01:14:04] <jmcp> alanc: well it seemed lame to me
[01:14:12] <spenser> jmcp: 5.10
[01:14:17] <jpipkin> Indiana seems awful enough by itself.
[01:14:24] <jmcp> spenser: please pay attention
[01:14:25] <spenser> jmcp: why would that be problematic?
[01:14:27] <richlowe> alanc: now see what you did.
[01:14:34] <jmcp> spenser: you just said you couldn't login
[01:14:34] <jmcp> duh
[01:14:35] <jmcp> :)
[01:14:45] <spenser> jmcp: please pay attention.
[01:14:56] <spenser> jmcp: my login for sun doesn't work so i can't update
[01:15:04] <jmcp> spenser: the sort of output I expect when I tell somebody to run "uname -a" is this::: SunOS pieces 5.11 snv_62 i86pc i386 i86pc
[01:15:04] <spenser> i can login to solaris.
[01:15:17] <jmcp> spenser: you should have made that clear. you didn't
[01:15:20] <spenser> jmcp: were you really asking for all that?
[01:15:25] <spenser> didn't you just need 5.10
[01:15:29] <alanc> richlowe: I'm stirring up trouble wherever I go
[01:15:30] <jmcp> NO
[01:15:32] <jmcp> ffs
[01:15:33] <spenser> i know what platform i'm running on
[01:15:42] * jpipkin smirks.
[01:15:43] <jmcp> spenser: did you read the info I just typed in?
[01:16:15] <jmcp> spenser: your "5.10" is the result of running "uname -r"
[01:16:21] <jmcp> do you see the difference between "a" and "r" ?
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[01:17:00] <elektronkind> "r" as in pirate. "a" as in... canadian
[01:17:14] <spenser> i know what uname is. Although I just installed solaris I have been using linux for 12 years. you have established yourself as an ass. congradulations. you can go "help" someone else now.
[01:17:56] <jmcp> spenser: you asked for help. I asked you to run a very specific command. you didn't. you told me I was not paying attention. I reject that
[01:18:23] <elektronkind> well spenser, it is pretty frustrating when you're trying to honstly help someone, and that someone can't cut an paste a request command from the IRC window into an xterm
[01:18:25] <spenser> jmcp: you obviously don't know the answer to the question so don't worry about it. carry on
[01:18:34] <jpipkin> congratulations.
[01:18:39] <jpipkin> congradulations is not a word.
[01:18:45] <spenser> elektronkind: i'm not on the solaris box right now.
[01:18:46] <jmcp> spenser: I asked you what release of Solaris 10 you were running, eg Solaris 10 update 3. You said "base install"
[01:18:48] <g4lt-mordant> jamesd_, could you do the honors?
[01:19:02] <jmcp> or perhaps sommerfeld?
[01:19:04] <elektronkind> I mean, I would have to wonder if I asked for the output of "uname -a" and got back the output of "uname -r" instead.
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[01:19:34] <alanc> cat /etc/release is more useful than uname for establishing which update though
[01:20:02] <jmcp> alanc: I know, and I would have got to that eventually
[01:20:16] <spenser> elektronkind: does uname have anything to do with solaris 10 having a version of zfs that has the shareiscsi property? i wasn't asking if mine did. i know it doesn't. i was asking if any did or if it was only in express right now.
[01:20:19] <jmcp> though there does seem to be some resistance to actually providing directly-requested information
[01:20:23] <g4lt-mordant> does /etc/release actually update for nevada builds?
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[01:20:34] <alanc> g4lt-mordant: yes
[01:20:34] <jmcp> g4lt-mordant: yes
[01:20:51] <g4lt-mordant> shows how much I pay attention :/
[01:20:52] <alanc> % cat /etc/release
[01:20:52] <alanc>                             Solaris Nevada snv_67 X86
[01:20:52] <alanc>            Copyright 2007 Sun Microsystems, Inc.  All Rights Reserved.
[01:20:52] <alanc>                         Use is subject to license terms.
[01:20:52] <alanc>                              Assembled 18 June 2007
[01:20:53] <elektronkind> spenser: what jmcp asked for is something more akin (in the Linux world) to "what update of RHEL 4 are you running"
[01:21:02] <sommerfeld> spenser: to answer your original question, zfs in solaris nevada is under active development.  a subset of features are backported into solaris 10 update releases.
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[01:21:12] <alanc> (I know, bad engineer, 2 builds behind schedule)
[01:21:24] <jmcp> and just because it's not a question you expected does not mean that it doesn't have a reason for being asked
[01:21:27] <g4lt-mordant> alanc, do you want to see mine? ;P
[01:21:27] <spenser> sommerfeld: thanks dude. thats what I was looking for. I appreciate it
[01:21:33] <elektronkind> spenser: well, a quick answer to your question is that no released update or version of Solaris 10 has iSCSI shares in ZFS.
[01:21:39] <jmcp> spenser: I already told you that
[01:21:40] <jmcp> ffs
[01:21:51] <spenser> jmcp: whatever. take a clue from sommerfeld
[01:22:01] <g4lt-mordant> did they finally put iSCSI in sol10 line?
[01:22:06] <alanc> why does jmcp keep looking for the first set bit?
[01:22:18] <g4lt-mordant> sommerfeld, please take out the trash
[01:22:27] <elektronkind> spenser: a long answer is the reason why JMCP ask for uname -a output is because the kernel rev that output includes would also indicate, in a very general sense, what features your system has installed.
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[01:22:51] <sommerfeld> uname -a output will include patch version info which can be converted back to an update release version.
[01:22:54] <elektronkind> alanc: I thought jmcp was talking about Berkeley Fast File System
[01:23:17] <spenser> elektronkind: i wasn't asking what features I have installed. i was asking if the shareiscsi property for zfs has been backported into solaris 10 yet. i know mine doesn't have it.
[01:23:24] <spenser> is it clear enough yet. drop it
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[01:24:04] <elektronkind> spenser: you're not parsing. iscsishare in ZFS is a feature, which would be delivered by a patch, and that patch would be dependant on a certain kernel revision, and that revision is reflected in the output of uname -a
[01:24:09] <elektronkind> it wasn't a useless question
[01:24:14] <g4lt-mordant> spenser, just out of curiosity, are you always this rude to people who help you?
[01:24:41] <spenser> elektronkind: do you not understand that i know my version doesn't have it. so why ask for my version. i know it doesn't have it. are you clueless?
[01:24:57] <spenser> g4lt-mordant: are you kidding? are you watching the whole conversation?
[01:25:26] <sommerfeld> spenser: jmcp's request for uname -a output was reasonable
[01:25:50] <spenser> sommerfeld: what would it tell you that had anything to do with what I was asking?
[01:25:55] <g4lt-mordant> yes, and you basically were an ass first to people that are attempring to help you, then further compound the issue by being an ass to the people that were explaining why you needed to give the information requested
[01:26:09] <sommerfeld> spenser: it would have contained a kernel jumbo patch version in addition to "5.10"
[01:26:25] <sommerfeld> (or a nevada build number in addition to 5.11)
[01:26:28] <g4lt-mordant> my favorite part is that you were telling an ex-sun engineer that he didn't know what he was talking baout
[01:26:35] <spenser> sommerfeld: which would tell you what? my question had nothing to do with my system.
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[01:26:45] <sommerfeld> either of these would have indicated whether you had new enough bits to contain shareiscsi
[01:26:52] <jmcp> g4lt-mordant: I'm still a Sun engineer, just not a support engineer any more
[01:26:57] <g4lt-mordant> oh, sorry
[01:27:03] <jmcp> nowurries
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[01:27:08] <sommerfeld> can't keep him away for long
[01:27:13] <spenser> sommerfeld: i know mine doesn't contain shareiscsi. i wasn't asking if my install supported it.
[01:27:13] <jmcp> heh :)
[01:27:35] <spenser> i was asking if it has been backported to solaris 10 yet
[01:27:36] <sommerfeld> spenser: it's still useful to know how far away you are from it
[01:27:39] <spenser> not weather i have it
[01:27:54] <spenser> sommerfeld: why is that usefull? it has nothing to do with the question?
[01:29:16] <elektronkind> spenser: ok, I think there was some confusion caused by the way your question was worded and the conversation spiraled from there
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[01:29:35] <g4lt-mordant> right, it had pretty much nothing to do with the opening metaquestion you asked, but it had everything to do with the inevitable followup "why can't >I< do it then?"
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[01:30:01] <spenser> g4lt-mordant: i never asked "why can't i do it" nor was i.
[01:30:04] <g4lt-mordant> it's not like most of us here haven't heard it all before
[01:30:15] <g4lt-mordant> bullshit
[01:30:17] <elektronkind> personally, I don't know if iscsishare will be in solaris 10... iscsitgtd will be in s10u4, the release of which is imminent, but as for the ZFS integration, I have not seen mention of that
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[01:31:00] <spenser> g4lt-mordant: so in order to justify your position you have to make up what you think i would say next?
[01:31:01] <schoppenhauer> ok. thank you for the links. my laptop is not there but related laptops which are similar are in the list. i think most of you are opensolaris-users. the final question: is it worth a try to install it if i want to use it as an effective system (i.e. as only system)
[01:31:20] <jmcp> schoppenhauer: of course it's worth trying :)
[01:31:31] <elektronkind> spenser: it would be best to cool yer heels right now
[01:31:39] <elektronkind> we're not out to getcha
[01:31:40] <spenser> you have to be kidding.
[01:31:41] <g4lt-mordant> schoppenhauer, I'd never put all my eggs in one basket.  always have alternatives open
[01:31:49] <spenser> you guys are unreal.
[01:32:01] <elektronkind> chill out man
[01:32:03] <Chipdancer> spenser: that's the most amazing complement I've heard of late
[01:32:22] <schoppenhauer> g4lt-mordant: i have not enough disk-space to install more than one system. i backuped debian but atm i have to reinstall anyway, so why not try something else=
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[01:32:35] <Chipdancer> It's always a complement to be recognised as something exceeding the norm :)
[01:32:36] <spenser> i ask a question, you assume i'm some user and catch a case of the ass acting like real jerks. then try to defend the way you act. then tell me to "cool off".
[01:32:42] <spenser> outstanding.
[01:32:49] <schoppenhauer> jmcp: i am not a server-admin. i am only a "user" who wants to get his laptop work.
[01:33:05] <elektronkind> look, I don't know about you, but I'm over all that.
[01:33:07] <jmcp> schoppenhauer: so? OpenSolaris isn't just for "servers"
[01:33:12] <g4lt-mordant> schoppenhauer, troo dat, and you really don't have much to lose if it's a failed experiment except time
[01:33:24] <schoppenhauer> jmcp: what is *your* personal suggestion which of the distributions i should use?
[01:33:26] <Chipdancer> schoppenhauer: what are you running on it at the moment as your desktop environment?
[01:33:28] <jmcp> schoppenhauer: it'll be a learning experience for you
[01:33:36] <schoppenhauer> Chipdancer: xfce
[01:33:37] <jmcp> schoppenhauer: I just use Solaris Express.
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[01:33:46] <jmcp> schoppenhauer: since I develop on it, that makes sense to me
[01:33:54] <Chipdancer> schoppenhauer: are you happy with it?
[01:34:02] <schoppenhauer> Chipdancer: yes. mostly.
[01:34:05] <jmcp> schoppenhauer: other people find belenix to be quite nice
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[01:34:31] <g4lt-mordant> given that xfce is a (bad) CDE clone, use the original FTW ;)
[01:34:37] <schoppenhauer> jmcp: hm. what about... package-management? apt? rpm? anything else? nothing at all? i like apt.
[01:34:37] <Chipdancer> schoppenhauer: install vmware and put one of the snv derivatives in a VM and give it a go from there
[01:34:56] <schoppenhauer> Chipdancer: whats snv?
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[01:35:02] <g4lt-mordant> schoppenhauer, blastwave.  ping on dclarke for details
[01:35:07] <jmcp> schoppenhauer: sigh ... you've got a whole lotta learning to do - go to docs.sun.com and look for the System Administration Guide, check out "pkgadd"
[01:35:13] <Chipdancer> schoppenhauer: solaris express, nevada, s11
[01:35:23] <jmcp> schoppenhauer: snv is Solaris NeVada - the release currently under development
[01:35:34] <schoppenhauer> Chipdancer: i already tried some of the livecds in an qemu...
[01:35:55] <Chipdancer> schoppenhauer: so how would you feel from that to move it to be the primary OS on your desktop?
[01:36:23] <Chipdancer> jmcp: there is nothing quite like the community repositories with advanced dependancy functions like apt or yum is there?
[01:36:41] <schoppenhauer> jmcp: ok. how many months do i have to calculate until i maybe manage to have a shell on it... or a rudimentary desktop-environment (with at least a twm running ^^)
[01:37:22] <jmcp> schoppenhauer: uh ... I'm surprised that you think it will take so long
[01:37:32] <jmcp> Chipdancer: not really, but www.blastwave.org is probably closest to that
[01:37:41] <Chipdancer> schoppenhauer: you'll have that out of the box
[01:37:48] <g4lt-mordant> schoppenhauer, solaris upon install gives you a JDS desktop or CDE if your're masochistic
[01:37:58] <schoppenhauer> Chipdancer: i dont think that desktop-environments are really the problem, are they? i can use kde or gnome or whatever as well, as long as i dont find or create a port of XFCE to solaris or something
[01:38:21] <Auralis> xfce builds fine on solaris
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[01:38:36] <g4lt-mordant> bah, xfce is the copy, use the original!
[01:38:57] <schoppenhauer> g4lt-mordant: i had to work under CDE already - i worked under a configured solaris already, and i liked it. it wasnt *that* different from linux (its a unix ^^)
[01:39:18] <g4lt-mordant> ooh, them's fightin words
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[01:39:38] <schoppenhauer> jmcp: hm... it took me long for linux. i dont know how much kernel-spam i have to learn ^^.
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[01:40:04] <schoppenhauer> jmcp: i am working under linux for 5 years now and still i didnt manage to completely compile my own kernel ^^
[01:40:05] <Auralis> xfce gave up the cde imitation years ago
[01:40:18] <schoppenhauer> xfce is quite good
[01:40:18] <jmcp> schoppenhauer: You don't need to compile your own kernel on Solaris
[01:40:23] <jmcp> schoppenhauer: unless you really want o
[01:40:41] <jmcp> to
[01:40:48] <schoppenhauer> jmcp: same under linux. but i dont think that things like "module-assistant" and "modprobe" and "depmod" and so on are the same.
[01:40:58] <jmcp> correct
[01:41:24] <jmcp> but you shouldn't generally need to use those unless you're adding new hardware in certain circumstances
[01:41:38] <schoppenhauer> jmcp: or ndiswrapper... i think this will be the greatest problem... wireless lan... its a bcm4xx-chip (broadcom)... i hope there is some driver for solaris since there were solaris workstations with broadcom-chips i think
[01:42:25] <jmcp> schoppenhauer: the wifi drivers are a pain in the backside
[01:42:58] <schoppenhauer> jmcp: hm... i thougt so... though i heard that there is something similar to ndiswrapper for solaris
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[01:43:09] <jmcp> yeah, there is
[01:43:55] <jmcp> do you have the model number? eg bcm 4311 or bcm 5750
[01:44:08] <schoppenhauer> jmcp: these are the things... thats why it will take long. i dont think that finally the programs are the problem. most programs are written posix-compatible and if there is no package or so i can easily compile myself. but the drivers..
[01:44:14] <schoppenhauer> jmcp: 4311 i think
[01:44:19] <jmcp> yeah, drivers can be a real pain
[01:44:54] <schoppenhauer> is it a good idea to try to install an "out-of-the-box"-solaris and then configure it? ^^
[01:45:21] <g4lt-mordant> I'd suggest a full install though
[01:45:22] <schoppenhauer> no. its not
[01:45:34] <schoppenhauer> what do you mean by "full install"?
[01:45:53] <jmcp> schoppenhauer: you'll be asked to chose an install cluster - chose "Full" instead of "Developer" or "End User"
[01:46:27] <schoppenhauer> jmcp: can i edit my partition-table before installing? can i use grub with solaris?
[01:46:31] <g4lt-mordant> literally, the installer asks you about four catefories of install.  end user is painfully bare, developer is only marginally better, full is best, full+oem for the best mileage
[01:46:53] <schoppenhauer> jmcp: i have not enough space to install both solaris and linux, but i want to keep my partition-infrastructure
[01:46:56] <Chipdancer> g4lt-mordant: what does +oem add?
[01:47:00] <jmcp> schoppenhauer: you'll need a DOS-style primary partition to devote to Solaris. within that, you create a Solaris vtoc
[01:47:06] <jmcp> schoppenhauer: backup
[01:47:28] <jmcp> Chipdancer: on sparc it adds the Fujitsu kernel modules
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[01:47:55] <schoppenhauer> jmcp: ok. so i better take a little more time before doing it.
[01:48:51] <schoppenhauer> what do you think about nexenta os?
[01:48:54] <jmcp> schoppenhauer: http://www.opensolaris.org/jive/thread.jspa?messageID=120286&#120286 is a "reported to work" with ndiswrapper for wifi
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[01:49:02] <jmcp> schoppenhauer: never tried it, but a lot of people seem to like it
[01:49:18] <schoppenhauer> jmcp: it is gnu... i like this ^^
[01:49:24] <jmcp> meh
[01:49:35] <schoppenhauer> meh?
[01:49:37] <jmcp> gnu has its uses
[01:49:48] <jmcp> it's a verbal representation of me shrugging my shoulders :)
[01:49:53] <schoppenhauer> ah... ok... it seems to work... bcm43xx... how good.
[01:49:56] <schoppenhauer> ah.
[01:50:29] <schoppenhauer> ok... i like gnu... i heard that nexenta uses APT... but dont know... gnu is certainly not the most beginner-friendly one ^^
[01:50:47] <schoppenhauer> jmcp: ok what was again the suggestion for a total beginner?
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[01:51:04] <jmcp> choose the "full" or "full + oem" option when asked
[01:51:09] <jmcp> do not chose "developer" or "end user"
[01:51:17] <schoppenhauer> jmcp: ok. but what distribution?
[01:51:22] <schoppenhauer> jmcp: Nevada?
[01:51:23] <jmcp> up to you
[01:51:36] <schoppenhauer> doesnt the installer depend on the distribution?
[01:51:37] <jmcp> Nevada is the name for the underlying source code project
[01:51:40] <jmcp> schoppenhauer: yes
[01:52:00] <jmcp> I'm going back to the "assume people are installing Solaris Express or SXCE" thing
[01:52:10] <schoppenhauer> ah.
[01:52:27] <schoppenhauer> ok... hm... i dont think that one can download solaris express ^^
[01:52:29] <jmcp> schoppenhauer: I can't recommend any particular distribution to you since I have only used one
[01:53:01] <schoppenhauer> jmcp: thats ok... but it doesnt seem like solaris express was freely available
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[01:53:18] <jmcp> define freely available
[01:53:24] <jmcp> you download it from sun.com
[01:53:41] <schoppenhauer> ok
[01:53:45] <jmcp> you do a once-only registration (which as far as I can see is there to satisfy the lawyers)
[01:53:58] <jmcp> and the sun.com privacy policy is righteous
[01:54:09] <jmcp> ie, much better than "don't be evil" ;)
[01:56:34] <schoppenhauer> ok. thank you.
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[01:57:39] <nachox> evening
[01:57:44] <jmcp> hi nachox
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[02:03:06] <jmcp> hi Gman
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[02:07:34] <myrkraverk> when /dev/dsk/c1t0d0s2 is my cd burner, what do I tell cdrecord to use?
[02:07:42] <Gman> hey jmcp
[02:07:49] <Gman> gotta go, airport calls
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[02:08:14] <myrkraverk> or is cdrw better?
[02:08:19] <nachox> myrkraverk, you need to use cdrecord -scanbus
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[02:08:33] <nachox> and cdrw is not better, it's just easier
[02:08:42] <nachox> a lot easier
[02:09:00] <myrkraverk> ah, ok
[02:09:07] * myrkraverk man cdrw
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[02:09:22] <nachox> coward :P
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[02:10:04] <myrkraverk> nachox: ;)
[02:10:44] <nachox> well, actually cdrecord can be easier but it needs an environment variable set
[02:11:26] <myrkraverk> well, I find cdrw -i file easy enough ;)
[02:12:25] <myrkraverk> hmm, can I use solaris to boot-serve other operating systems?
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[02:28:21] <nachox> alanc, can the vesa xorg driver support resolutions like  1280x800?
[02:28:34] <alanc> dunno
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[02:28:58] <nachox> anywhere i can see the valid resolutions?
[02:29:11] <nemesis> I use the monitor
[02:29:11] <g4lt-mordant> uhm, I really doubt you're going to get much more than 1280x1024 out of vesa
[02:29:38] <g4lt-mordant> oh, x800?  I don't see why not, albeit a bit of a stretch
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[02:30:32] <g4lt-mordant> vesa pretty much mazxes out at 1024x768, but you can push it to 1280x1024, so presumably you can push it to 1280x800 as well
[02:32:19] <nachox> i was under the impresion that the vesa driver was actually usable till 1024x768
[02:38:58] <coffman> hm, on which driver the ati cards are running?
[02:39:20] <g4lt-mordant> coffman, M64 ;P
[02:39:45] <richlowe> pfb!
[02:40:18] * g4lt-mordant wonders if a rage128 on X86 wouldn't run better in xsun and m64
[02:41:35] <coffman> on this system every biger copy slows the system down like hell
[02:41:45] <coffman> the desktop is not useable
[02:42:24] <coffman> fells like a u10 :P
[02:43:01] * coffman wonders if any one at sun had to use a u10 ever
[02:44:36] <Chipdancer> coffman: they were latest and greatest at one point in time
[02:45:09] <coffman> no, i dont think so
[02:45:56] <coffman> i can see people fighting against getting there u2 replaced :P
[02:45:56] <g4lt-mordant> right, the U60 beat it hands down when it was intoduced ;P
[02:46:51] <coffman> yeah, u60/80s are the shit
[02:47:09] <coffman> they refuse to die
[02:48:13] <nachox> give me 20 minutes and a hammer
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[02:48:26] <coffman> :P
[02:48:57] <coffman> gn8
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[02:50:08] <alanc> coffman_zzz: I was very happy to get my U10 at Sun - big upgrade from the Sparc20 I had before it
[02:50:18] <alanc> still have it here as a test machine
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[02:55:55] <tsp> something is seriously wrong with my solaris box. I'm not sure if it's a combination of vmware and solaris, but the system response just dropped - so much so that it takes around 10 seconds for even a simple ed command to work
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[02:56:36] * jmcp blames firefox first, then looks for other possibilities
[02:57:12] <tsp> hmm, can a load of 3.1 cause this?
[02:57:13] <nachox> haha
[02:57:23] <jmcp> tsp: perhaps
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[03:56:48] <myrkraverk> when I want to write a secure command for rbac, do I do it the normal way, and request/require root priviliges and then create a role that allows it? or is there another way?
[03:57:09] <richlowe> least priv
[03:57:39] <myrkraverk> ah, yes; ok
[03:58:34] <g4lt-mordant> which X86 distro has max coolness factor?
[03:58:54] <myrkraverk> the one you put in the freezer?
[03:58:58] * g4lt-mordant finally has the round tuit to install on his craptop
[03:59:10] <g4lt-mordant> myrkraverk, they all were
[03:59:22] <nachox> g4lt-mordant, i just installed solaris 10 but i doubt that wins coolness points
[03:59:42] <g4lt-mordant> nachox, not really, especially when I have a atheros card to install as well
[04:00:17] <g4lt-mordant> shillix is dead, right?
[04:00:18] <nachox> g4lt-mordant, i have a 3945abg and it works, i dont know what's the status of atheros
[04:00:36] <g4lt-mordant> also all I have for 10 is GA
[04:00:58] <nachox> wait for u4 a few days and download it?
[04:01:08] <nachox> btw, when will that be out?
[04:01:24] <g4lt-mordant> no, it's for a con this weekend
[04:01:38] <richlowe> SX?
[04:01:49] <richlowe> I think bellenix and nexenta would be the other two.
[04:01:57] <richlowe> but given your oft-stated views, nexenta is probably not one to recommend to you ;)
[04:02:02] <nachox> SX is probably the best, nexenta is nice if you want updates
[04:02:25] <nachox> otherwise just forget about it
[04:02:30] <g4lt-mordant> and belenix is spacr, right?
[04:02:51] <nachox> ?
[04:02:58] <nachox> martux is sparc
[04:03:22] <g4lt-mordant> oh
[04:04:00] <g4lt-mordant> shows how much I pay attention.  I'll play with nexenta.  hell, that's why it's my craptop.  it had windoze.  anything's an improvement after that
[04:05:37] <alanc> the wait for U4 is still more than a few days
[04:06:15] <nachox> richlowe, you were saying what about nexenta? :P
[04:06:34] <richlowe> nachox: I think he just wants something to complain about ;)
[04:07:03] <alanc> fatal: Not a git repository
[04:07:14] <alanc> must retrain fingers
[04:07:33] <nachox> can anyone filter the "an open leter to..." mails from osol-discuss? :)
[04:07:51] <alanc> you can, in your mailer settings
[04:08:17] <g4lt-mordant> richlowe, right, where's the fun in life if not for bitching ;P
[04:08:21] <nachox> actually gmail cant
[04:08:51] <richlowe> nachox: you unsubscribe from osol-discuss.
[04:08:55] <richlowe> it's easier than building up mail filters.
[04:09:07] <nachox> probably
[04:09:18] <alanc> I use mail filters in gmail
[04:09:21] <alanc> work fine
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[04:09:35] <alanc> though I filter on senders, not headers
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[04:09:39] <nachox> how? i can only tag mails i think
[04:10:05] <alanc> isn't Gman supposed to be on a plane?
[04:10:15] <Gman> yeah, in the airport
[04:10:17] <Gman> so pretty close :)
[04:10:49] <g4lt-mordant> Gman, where you heading?
[04:10:51] <Gman> alanc, you totally blew my cover at today's psarc meeting ;)
[04:10:55] <Gman> g4lt-mordant, HOME!
[04:10:58] <g4lt-mordant> w00t
[04:10:59] <Gman> (nz)
[04:11:08] <alanc> heh - stevel pointed too
[04:11:16] <Gman> he did? swine.
[04:11:25] * Gman was, like, ugh
[04:11:33] <richlowe> he's traitorous, ain't he?
[04:11:36] <Gman> [though i know it's important to make contact]
[04:11:43] <Gman> alanc, incidently, what's your take on 4237759
[04:11:45] <alanc> nachox: in the filters screen in my gmail, the options are: skip inbox, add star, apply label, forward, and delete
[04:11:46] <richlowe> I'm still annoyed I didn't call in.
[04:11:53] <richlowe> if I'd known you were going to drop Gman in it, I'd have made sure to listen in.
[04:11:56] <Gman> alanc, install guys are really keen to see it fixed
[04:12:11] <richlowe> alanc: star gets everywhere, huh.
[04:12:14] <Gman> and whatever makes happy install guys is good for me
[04:12:19] <richlowe> alanc: alternatively, perhaps *that's* how Joerg does it...
[04:12:20] <Gman> (though want to make happy x guys too)
[04:12:37] <alanc> gman: that if they really wanted it, they would have told us a while ago
[04:12:49] <alanc> didn't hear about it until the week after our nv_70 code freeze
[04:12:54] <Gman> alanc, can appreciate that
[04:13:06] <Gman> alanc, ok, not so clever on their part
[04:13:08] <alanc> for Xorg, I think it's about a days work
[04:13:29] <Gman> alanc, likelihood of resources to fix?
[04:13:35] <alanc> for Xsun, I don't know - though I may be able to swipe some of the Sun Ray hot-desk-to-different-keyboard-type code
[04:13:38] * Gman feels somewhat sorry for alanc right now ;)
[04:13:48] <richlowe> huh.
[04:13:54] <richlowe> How *should* X react?
[04:13:57] <richlowe> (do they think)
[04:14:30] <richlowe> The reaction is obvious if one is removed, and another added, but it must react appropriately to a *second* keyboard being hotplugged.
[04:14:34] <richlowe> where changing the layout would be anti-social, at best.
[04:14:42] <Gman> richlowe, for sure
[04:14:43] <alanc> richlowe: they think it should switch layouts, just as if someone typed "setxkbmap"
[04:14:50] <richlowe> alanc: I think they're wrong, see above.
[04:14:59] <richlowe> but nice setxkbmap reference, damn you.
[04:15:00] <Gman> richlowe, i can appreciate the user need though
[04:15:21] <alanc> right, but what they really want is for it to happen when you run "kbd -s", either directly or through the OS installer
[04:15:23] <Gman> and pluging in 2 keyboards seems slightly unlikely
[04:15:32] <richlowe> Gman: I do it fairly often.
[04:15:33] <alanc> which causes the kernel to send the same event as hotplugging
[04:15:35] <richlowe> Gman: also, laptops
[04:15:47] <Gman> richlowe, laptops is a good case, i'd agree
[04:15:54] <richlowe> Gman: I don't think it's uncommon to plug a real keyboard.
[04:16:18] <alanc> the new install wants to have everything in the GUI, and get rid of "prompt for keyboard layout in console, then start X"
[04:16:44] <Gman> (which is an absolutely fair requirement)
[04:16:47] <alanc> I mean, I could just ship setxkbmap...
[04:16:54] <alanc> but that wouldn't help SPARC/Xsun
[04:16:57] <Gman> libxklavier!
[04:16:58] * Gman runs
[04:17:08] <Triskelios> *shudder*
[04:17:44] * Gman notices sergey was at guadec, but didn't get a chance to talk to him
[04:18:01] <alanc> anyways, back to the previous question: I know it's important, and think I can get it in sometime in the next couple of weeks, but that'll be nv_72 or 73, not 70
[04:18:22] <Triskelios> I spent a an hour or two dealing with keyboard layouts today (my laptop has a jp keyboard but I want it to switch layout when I plug in a us USB keyboard)
[04:18:37] <Gman> alanc, i'm not sure whether there was an expectation for b70
[04:19:02] <richlowe> alanc: you should ship setxkbmap anyway, obviously.
[04:19:03] <Gman> alanc, nice to have sooner, but not essential i think
[04:19:10] <richlowe> alanc: think of all the time you'll save in my complaints, alone.
[04:19:13] <Gman> alanc, i assume the workaround is fine for now
[04:19:42] * Triskelios would appreciate the gnome-keyboard-applet being shipped when setxkbmap is
[04:19:45] <alanc> richlowe: what if we just shove it in Indiana?
[04:19:56] <richlowe> alanc: Oh, that's mean.
[04:20:24] <alanc> had a conversation this evening about possibly using the fully-open X gate for Indiana
[04:20:25] <richlowe> Triskelios: and yeah, it'd be nice to see that back, and actually working.
[04:20:34] <richlowe> alanc: well, it's the obvious choice.
[04:20:46] <alanc> and I assume setxkbmap is in the belenix bits we'll pull into that
[04:20:49] <richlowe> alanc: but as I've said, I have setxkbmap binaries in ~/bin, so I'm happy either way.
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[04:20:56] <richlowe> I even have a sparc one, somewhere.
[04:21:02] <richlowe> though it's uh, picky about when it wants to work
[04:21:16] <richlowe> but if my memory is accurate it does.
[04:21:20] <alanc> the problem with the gnome-keyboard-applet stuff is there hasn't been a version yet that works well with both Xsun & Xorg
[04:21:26] <richlowe> which suggest you could convince one to work with Xsun, if you force XKB on by default in Xsun.
[04:21:36] <Gman> alanc, that would be awesome to see
[04:22:03] <alanc> though the solution to that may just be watch Xsun die when it fails to appear in Indiana
[04:22:10] <richlowe> I think the problem was largely it rarely finding the files it needs.
[04:22:22] <richlowe> (and there being associated ways to make it do so, those I forget)
[04:22:42] <alanc> richlowe: yeah, even with Xkb on in Xsun, it's idea of xkb keyboard layouts isn't quite the same as Xorg
[04:23:06] <alanc> (it's about a 5 year older version of the XKB code, before the XFree86 guys had fun adding multiple layout support and other stuff)
[04:23:47] * Gman says 'amen to eol'ing xsun'
[04:24:37] <alanc> we're trying, we're trying
[04:25:03] <alanc> but well, you know, there's these SPARC workstation and Sun Ray things blocking the door
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[04:25:16] <nachox> most x86 guys are probably using it already anyway
[04:25:33] <alanc> (and the SPARC guys are not happy with us since we stole one of their few remaining engineers)
[04:26:56] <nachox> there are like 12 engineers working in X including sparc right?
[04:27:18] <alanc> at Sun?  something like that
[04:28:23] <alanc> (depends on how you define working in X, since there's people in so many different groups that touch various bits - core X, SPARC graphics, x86 graphics, DRI, Trusted Extensions, sustaining, etc.)
[04:28:50] <richlowe> it's the sparc graphics stuff that's the annoyance though, right?
[04:28:51] <richlowe> (beyond lack of time)
[04:28:54] <Gman> alanc, will, you might have pissed off a few of them too :)
[04:28:58] <nachox> and intel is helping now?
[04:29:56] <Gman> well, the fact that intel are writing drivers for xorg obviously helps a lot
[04:29:57] <alanc> SPARC graphics is what's keeping Xsun in, and keeping Indiana from having a SPARC plan
[04:30:27] <alanc> yeah, and the intel engineers work with our x86 guys too on issues we find in Solaris
[04:30:35] <Gman> cool cool
[04:30:42] <Gman> the intel partnership has been great
[04:30:46] <richlowe> alanc: Indiana shouldn't need Xsun to have a plan for sparc.
[04:30:50] <richlowe> that plan just may suck for a while.
[04:30:51] * Gman met a bunch of intel dudes last week at oscon
[04:31:02] <richlowe> but that's true of all their plans, so who'd notice? :)
[04:31:04] <alanc> richlowe: well, until we finish the "use the Martux Xorg drivers" plan...
[04:31:25] <richlowe> alanc: the no_source page suggests they've at least given thought to which drivers they *may* be able to open.
[04:31:30] <alanc> Gman: yeah - a lot of Intel's Xorg team lives in Portland area...
[04:31:30] <richlowe> though I fully suspect they won't.
[04:31:47] <nachox> has amd been actually as friendly as intel when it comes to developing?
[04:31:58] <richlowe> but at this point, with Xorg appearing in real releases, it would seem to make sense for them to move toward ignoring Xsun, as everyone else is.
[04:32:00] <alanc> and we actually have people this time chasing down gdamore's 3dlabs contacts
[04:32:19] <Gman> nice
[04:32:22] <alanc> nachox: the processor side of amd has been very friendly
[04:32:45] <alanc> the former-ati side of amd is another story
[04:32:52] <richlowe> is ATI ever friendly?
[04:33:05] <richlowe> given the fun little off-shoot rants the Xorg folks post every now and then.
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[04:34:00] <alanc> Sun is one of AMD's biggest CPU customers, but rather small of a ATI graphics customer (and mainly on the cheap stuff side of that)
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[04:46:52] <rootard> Anyone know of problems importing a zpool? I can't import a pool without making my system kernel dump: Solaris 10: Generic_125100
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[05:14:18] <boyd> Ah, 2006/525: New Boot Sparc opens up
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[05:15:45] <Teknomancer> Morning all
[05:16:06] <boyd> Umm... is s10u4 being called Solaris 10 7/07 HW release?
[05:17:36] <jmcp> 08/07, iirc
[05:17:37] <Teknomancer> a question:  binaries made by gcc cannot link with any libraries done using the suncc ? Or just C++ libs by sunCC ?
[05:17:44] <jmcp> c++
[05:17:53] <Teknomancer> k thanks
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[05:19:04] <boyd> jmcp: I thought so too. The reason I ask is that there are now release notes up on docs.sun.com for "Solaris 10 7/07 HW release"
[05:19:14] * jmcp sighs
[05:21:05] <nachox> boyd, according to a mail i got from docs-discuss it is 8/07
[05:21:28] <boyd> The "What's new" seems to include Sparks, zpool history & other zfs changes, MPxIO Path steering, stmsboot for x86 packet filter hooks, etc...
[05:21:45] <boyd> I thought so too... http://docs.sun.com/app/docs/coll/1236.7
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[05:22:39] <Doc> thank god it's.. umm.. what day is it again?
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[05:22:59] <boyd> It must be friday somewhere... perhaps not no earth...
[05:23:48] <nachox> boyd, doc guys do make mistakes :P
[05:24:03] <boyd> Sure, but that seems kinda... big
[05:24:11] <g4lt-mordant> boyd, it's friday for ME :)
[05:24:40] * g4lt-mordant is officiallyy on vacation, leaves for vegas tomorrow morning
[05:25:25] <boyd> you see, Doc... what proof to do you have that there is any reality outside g4lt-mordant's head?
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[05:27:06] <Doc> reality it overrated
[05:27:41] <nachox> boyd, think they will change that ssh thing from the security manual before it gets released?
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[05:27:44] <g4lt-mordant> so's typing ;P
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[05:29:07] <boyd> nachox: I think it's already out there...
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[05:29:23] <boyd> (In prior releases)
[05:30:28] <nachox> boyd, i means the ssh part in the manual that is missplaced inside the restricted shells section
[05:32:14] <john--__> have any of you tried win4solaris yet?
[05:32:15] <boyd> Yeah, I know what you mean... it's already on docs.sun.com... that's where I found it
[05:33:02] <jmcp> john--__: yeah, i tried it a while ago
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[05:33:09] <john--__> how is it?
[05:33:10] <jmcp> seemed to work ok except that I needed more ram
[05:33:18] <jmcp> and perhaps another dual-core proc
[05:33:31] <boyd> .. and perhaps another machine to run Windows on :)
[05:34:54] <john--__> have you run windows on vmware on linux?
[05:34:58] <john--__> how did it compare?
[05:35:40] <jmcp> I haven't
[05:35:41] <jmcp> I don't run linux
[05:35:54] <boyd> Ah, good, seems that Newboot SPARC will bring the same boot archive fragility to SPARC that we have on x86. I was missing that.
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[05:36:48] <g4lt-mordant> boyd, I can hadrly wait :/
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[05:39:48] * delewis grumbles
[05:44:40] <john--__> are you guys still buying SPARC systems?
[05:44:50] <jmcp> heck yeah
[05:44:55] <jmcp> Sun's still selling them, too
[05:47:06] <richlowe> boyd: see Bill's responses in that thread.
[05:47:22] <boyd> Haven't got to them yet... I will when I'm not teaching :)
[05:47:25] <richlowe> (though it maybe best to wait until the full maillog is visible, given it seems to start halfway through)
[05:47:36] <richlowe> sheesh, teaching.
[05:47:39] <richlowe> when does educating users ever work? :)
[05:47:46] <john--__> yeah i know they sell them, but i wasn't sure if it was only for legacy customers who want to keep a constant architecture, or if people are buying them outright for new things
[05:48:40] <g4lt-mordant> so john--__ name the other 2048-thread computers available out there
[05:49:28] <jmcp> john--__: perhaps you've heard of the CoolThreads servers?
[05:49:32] <john--__> (this is coming from a guy who doesn't touch high performance computing or massive database servers)
[05:49:41] <jmcp> john--__: do you do web stuff?
[05:49:56] <jmcp> john--__: http://www.sun.com/servers/coolthreads/t1000/benchmarks.jsp
[05:50:06] <richlowe> g4lt-mordant: given that whole article seems to be based on a gross misunderstanding of NCPU and a leak...
[05:50:17] <nachox> boyd, zulu was integrated too it seems
[05:50:22] <john--__> my web servers just arent high traffic enough
[05:50:29] <g4lt-mordant> richlowe, well, DUH, it was by ashlee vance FFS
[05:51:33] <richlowe> sparc has some nifty stuff, whether it's nifty enough to be worth buying is purely a purchasing decision.
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[05:52:35] <sommerfeld> boyd: so, what i'm going to attempt to push for is for a change to only put immutable packaged stuff into the boot archive
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[05:53:51] <boyd> Sounds better. Is it possible?
[05:54:43] <richlowe> sommerfeld: that would (seem) to be as doable on x86 as on sparc.
[05:55:06] <richlowe> butchered parens, but you get the idea
[05:55:07] <sommerfeld> i'm convinced that it's technically feasible, but psarc has limited ability to force engineers to do things they don't want to do
[05:55:36] <richlowe> I'd like to see an explanation of why it shouldn't be done, if that's the route taken.
[05:55:47] <richlowe> it's an availability issue, as you said in the thread.
[05:56:23] <sommerfeld> jan's primary objection is that it's not feasible for the boot blocks to look at the lufs log or the zfs intent log.
[05:57:04] <richlowe> but I think I agree with your response, that inconsistency there is likely to be no more of a problem than not coming up due to boot archive issues.
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[05:57:17] <richlowe> and the latter is also likely to be far more common.
[05:57:48] <sommerfeld> now, there was a logging ufs bug that existed for a very long time (wasn't fixed until right before s10 shipped) that created great pain -- i had to bail out systems that got munched by a broken md.conf file
[05:58:14] <sommerfeld> but I haven't seen that bug in ages
[05:59:10] <sommerfeld> richlowe: so, the difference on x86 is that I think grub is reading the boot archive into memory before diving into the kernel.
[05:59:50] <sommerfeld> i'm not sure where the right place to put the code to read the dozen or so mutable files before diving into the kernel
[05:59:56] <sommerfeld> would be
[06:01:17] <richlowe> Ah, yes.
[06:03:47] <richlowe> and the bit about md.conf suggests it is unsafe to make an out-of-sync archive less fatal.
[06:04:12] <richlowe> actually, perhaps not, since the system comes up enough to tell you, and by that point, anything damaging could easily have already happened.
[06:04:19] <myrkraverk> is pfexec a priviliged operation, or is it just a wrapper to make sure priviliges apply?
[06:04:26] <boyd> I think it's a crucial issue... I've had (sun) customers say that they are sufficiently unhappy with the availibility probs with x86 boot archives that they'd rather run AIX on Power than use it on Sparc
[06:05:03] <sommerfeld> boyd: that would be good to know specifics
[06:05:03] <delewis> I can certainly agree with that.
[06:05:15] <delewis> you don't put up with that nonsense on AIX certainly.
[06:05:17] <Doc> blah.. like customers know what they are talking about
[06:05:23] <sommerfeld> (suitably anonymized if necessary)
[06:05:35] * delewis shrugs
[06:06:17] <boyd> sommerfeld: Well, the thing is that other than the identity of the customers there's not much more specificity I can give.. the above is basically the entire comment from them.
[06:06:28] <delewis> the only time the AIX "boot image" is modified is when updates are installed.
[06:08:41] <boyd> I've sometimes thought that some of the fragility could be alleviated by having the boot archive updated periodically automatically (so it's not out of date) and then have a non-in-place update so that we can still boot if the power fails while updating.
[06:10:55] <Doc> i'd agree with that.  even every few mins if something has changed
[06:11:01] <richlowe> I'm still idly wondering why we can't let the boot continue, but warn.
[06:11:08] <richlowe> I'm sure the answer is obvious, but I'm too tired to spot it. :)
[06:11:08] <boyd> maybe 2 archives with checksumming, so we can fall back on an old one in case the new is unfinished.. (Is using an old one better than using nothing and failing?)
[06:11:15] <Doc> because then nobody will ever notice
[06:11:27] <delewis> why doesn't anyone have to do this?
[06:11:30] <Doc> boyd: from a support point of view, no it's not
[06:11:35] <delewis> s/anyone/anyone else/
[06:11:38] <flyingparchment> i think it's funny that the boot archive is becoming objectional now they want to add it to sparc
[06:11:53] <richlowe> Doc: and next time the system cycles, they won't need to, the bigger problem I can think of right now is possible instance renumbering.
[06:11:54] <delewis> I've only seen this boot archive nonsense on Solaris.
[06:11:55] <Doc> that's because (in many ways) what sparc has got works!
[06:12:04] <Doc> where what x86 had previously blew chuncks
[06:12:07] <boyd> flyingparchment: it was always objectionable
[06:12:11] <flyingparchment> delewis: linux does it (initrd), but theirs actually works
[06:12:12] <delewis> AIX has something similar, but it doesn't require a rebuild every reboot.
[06:12:17] <flyingparchment> delewis: (which is surprising, but there you go)
[06:12:28] <richlowe> boyd: hook something up to FEM to lazilly rebuild the archive when its contents are changed.
[06:12:29] <Doc> delewis: nor does x86, only if something changes
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[06:12:37] <richlowe> (now that's objectionable)
[06:12:38] <boyd> richlowe: yep
[06:12:38] <Doc> the problem is that the defintion of "something" is fairly lax
[06:12:56] <delewis> Doc, evey Solaris/x86 reboot I've seen rebuilds the boot archive.
[06:12:57] <boyd> you still want the failback case I think
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[06:13:16] <boyd> delewis: Yes, something changes can include the phase of the moon :)
[06:13:29] <flyingparchment> i like the part where it fails to rebuild the archive during reboot, then reboots anyway
[06:13:30] <boyd> (USB insert/remove is more common)
[06:13:38] <flyingparchment> quality engineering there
[06:13:46] <delewis> crackpottery.
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[06:16:20] <sommerfeld> flyingparchment: it's not that it's becoming "objectionable".  it's been problematic all along, and the get well plan (case by case analysis of each varying file to produce a per-file hack) hasn't fixed it.
[06:16:53] <flyingparchment> sommerfeld: why was it added to S10 then, if it clearly doesn't work properly?
[06:17:14] <sommerfeld> very long story
[06:17:17] <delewis> to get rid of oldboot, I suspect.
[06:17:27] <delewis> which essentially required separate, 16-bit drivers.
[06:17:39] <sommerfeld> oldboot on x86 was actually significantly worse in a number of ways
[06:17:48] <richlowe> and the stated reason not to pull them off the filesystem is the inability to run the logs first.
[06:17:52] <boyd> Have I misread this: "The project desires patch/update binding"? Golly.
[06:17:53] <flyingparchment> oldboot could actually boot most of the time.  ;-)
[06:17:53] <delewis> every bootable driver had to have a 16-bit counter-part.
[06:17:56] <richlowe> which pretty makes this intractible, if that reasoning holds.
[06:18:01] <richlowe> 'pretty much'
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[06:18:07] <delewis> whch made the number of bootable drivers rather small.
[06:18:20] <richlowe> boyd: because, you know, it'd suck for Sun to actually have a real release.
[06:18:27] <boyd> :)
[06:18:36] <flyingparchment> yeah, i get the reason that oldboot was bad, i just don't think replacing it with this was really much better
[06:20:30] <sommerfeld> interestingly, multics solved a problem like this very differently.  there was a boot-archive like structure, but the files inside it were spliced into the running filesystem early in boot once the filesystem was mounted.
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[06:22:47] <richlowe> syncing archive->FS after an unclean shutdown will clobber change.
[06:22:52] <richlowe> so how did that work? :)
[06:23:54] <sommerfeld> so 1) only stuff that didn't change over time went on the boot tape 2) the boot tape was constructed from a second copy of the universe kept in a different directory
[06:24:02] <sommerfeld> (and, yes, it was a tape.)
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[06:24:36] <sommerfeld> not rebuilt on shutdown
[06:25:03] <boyd> Hmmm I think this quote indicates some detachment from reality: "
[06:25:03] <boyd> Hmmm I think this quote indicates some detachment from reality: "The boot menu provided by grub would be an interesting feature to provide Solaris SPARC
[06:25:06] <boyd> users."
[06:25:51] <sommerfeld> so, there's actually a very useful feature there: each live upgrade BE appears in the menu as a separate selection.
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[06:26:31] <g4lt-mordant> sommerfeld, wouldn't that be more suited to a curses-based OBP?
[06:26:44] <richlowe> which would be exceptionally handy
[06:26:57] <richlowe> given the number of times an ill-considered 'boot disk' will bring you into the wrong BE :)
[06:27:07] <richlowe> (now, if liveupgrade set devaliases, I'd be happy)
[06:27:10] <richlowe> though that's kinda icky
[06:27:55] <boyd> Yeah, I can see the point... it seems the priorities are wrong though...
[06:28:17] <sommerfeld> g4lt-mordant: you don't need curses to have a menu.
[06:29:09] <sommerfeld> but also zfs boot on sparc is supposed to include some way to ask a bootable zfs slice for a list of its bootable filesystems.
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[06:33:05] <richlowe> sommerfeld: was todays PSARC call recorded?
[06:33:16] * richlowe doesn't recall if the open calls are recorded and made available.
[06:36:49] <boyd> It seems to me that from a customers perspective *any* change that adds another way to make a boot fail without a human needs a very *very* good reason, and I don't see that easier code maintenance is (from the user's POV) good enough
[06:37:02] <richlowe> it isn't.
[06:37:10] <richlowe> you'd think the RAS folks would jump on such a thing.
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[06:37:32] <boyd> Quite
[06:38:58] <sommerfeld> I believe it was recorded
[06:39:23] <sommerfeld> boyd: that availability issue is in fact my primary gripe
[06:40:59] <boyd> Yes, I'm getting to your mails now.. (always nice to see someone else express your position better than you can :) )
[06:42:16] <sommerfeld> thanks
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[06:44:02] <boyd> Your comment about a half-updated root and being safer with live upgrade becomes evem more relevant when we consider that ZFS root is likely to make live upgrade the default option (default for admins, if not for the toold)
[06:44:07] <boyd> tools
[06:44:35] <sommerfeld> i believe the forcing function for newboot on x86 was some of the hardware that needs to be able to boot over a USB CD/DVD.  that would have been utterly impossible to shoehorn into oldboot (who wants to write a 16-bit usb stack, anyway...)
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[06:44:53] <boyd> <shudder/>
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[06:45:22] <sommerfeld> the galaxy service processor can hallucinate up a virtual DVD image that you can boot off of
[06:45:35] <sommerfeld> (via the downloadable java doohickey)
[06:45:48] <gridlok> i have a question about opensolaris if anyone is interested in answering
[06:46:26] <sommerfeld> with respect to zfs and live upgrade: you get functionality (multiple boot environments) for essentially free because you can put multiple filesystems per pool
[06:46:34] <sommerfeld> gridlok: ask away.
[06:46:45] <gridlok> thx sommerfeld...here goes...
[06:47:23] <gridlok> i burnt two live cds to play around with:  bellenix (don't know if i spelled that right) and schillix
[06:47:43] <gridlok> the bellenix cd ran fine...i mean as fine as a live cd can be expected to run, i suppose
[06:48:12] <gridlok> i haven't been able to get the schillix cd to run...and this is the one i'm really interested in because i'm trying to load the amd64 code
[06:48:50] <boyd> sommerfeld: yes, that's what I mean.. which helps a lot
[06:48:52] <gridlok> so my question is this:  is there another option for picking up a live cd that leverages the amd64 cpu?
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[06:49:54] <boyd> sommerfeld: maybe you can explain why they are unhappy to load the original files from the disk (because of log rolling) but happy to load the boot archive from the same FS?
[06:50:12] <boyd> Is Nexenta a liveCD?
[06:50:13] <sommerfeld> gridlok: as a bit of background, solaris boots off of install media in 32-bit mode and only goes 64-bit when installed to disk.
[06:50:31] <sommerfeld> gridlok: one of the other distros may have changed that.
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[06:52:18] <sommerfeld> boyd: because sysadmins type sync;sync;sync after bootadm update-archive and the power never fails while you're watching?? (not serious answer)
[06:52:58] <gridlok> sommerfeld:  i tried booting the amd64 english build twice and it hanged everytime it asked for a login or a newpc login...i would put in "root" and it would give me some strange message about something failing or being unresolved and then it said it "sleeping on retry"
[06:52:58] <boyd> heheh
[06:53:07] <gridlok> i wish i had written down exactly what it said
[06:53:37] <gridlok> and then i tried booting in just plain old 32 bit and it hanged at the same place
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[06:54:12] <gridlok> i'm really new to this whole solaris thing
[06:54:17] <sommerfeld> gridlok: exact error messages help a lot.
[06:55:00] <gridlok> sommerfeld:  yeah, i'll write it down next time...i'll have to power down my box and reboot it with the disk
[06:55:30] <gridlok> the last time i used solaris was probably in 1996 on a sparc station in my friend's kitchen
[06:55:35] <boyd> sommerfeld: of course, if the boot archive has been updated it's more likely to be in the log than the original files :)
[06:55:36] <gridlok> didn't understand it then, either
[06:58:05] <boyd> gridlok: That message sounds like one from sendmail. You can ignore it for the most part
[06:58:30] <gridlok> boyd:  nexenta says they don't have a live cd available
[06:58:41] <g4lt-mordant> in case anyone cares, I decided on SXCE for my craptop :/
[06:58:42] <myrkraverk> erm, what are the fake RHEL distros again?
[06:58:49] <gridlok> boyd:  yeah, it did say sendmail something couldn't resolve something else
[06:58:59] <g4lt-mordant> myrkraverk, one is fedora
[06:59:13] <boyd> gridlok: unless you care about sendmail ignore the error
[06:59:16] <gridlok> boyd:  and then it just hangs and doesn't do anything
[06:59:19] <myrkraverk> g4lt-mordant: erm, no, not that one
[06:59:27] <gridlok> i don't, but it doesn't do anything after that
[06:59:40] <myrkraverk> the one that claims total binary compatibility with rhel?
[06:59:57] <myrkraverk> the dudes that re-build the rhel sources?
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[07:00:17] <flyingparchment> myrkraverk: centos?
[07:00:28] <myrkraverk> ah, yes, that's the one
[07:00:34] <flyingparchment> myrkraverk: also, whitebox linux
[07:00:36] <gridlok> one of my friends is using centos
[07:00:47] <gridlok> my question to him was...why?
[07:01:43] <boyd> gridlok: sendmail is not a show-stopper.. the problem is elsewhere... (have you tried just waiting longer - seriously)
[07:02:28] <gridlok> sommerfeld and boyd:  thanks.  i'll just wait for a few minutes and see if it resolves itself.  otherwise, i'll let you know if i'm getting a specific error...thx
[07:02:36] <gridlok> brb
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[07:15:24] <unixware> hi
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[07:15:37] <unixware> is there any opensolaris livecd?
[07:16:28] <jmcp> have a look at belenix
[07:16:39] <unixware> ok :)
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[07:19:31] <Gekkko> hai.
[07:19:36] <gridlok> re all
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[07:20:54] <gridlok> boyd and sommerfeld:  i just tried to boot the live cd.
[07:21:56] <unixware> gridlok belenix?
[07:22:20] <gridlok> brb
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[07:24:17] <gridlok> unixware:  bellenix works fine, it's schillix i'm having trouble with
[07:24:52] <unixware> gridlok, ah ok thanks :)
[07:25:11] <gridlok> here's what's happening, and maybe it's just because i haven't worked on a unix terminal since the mid 90's
[07:26:05] <gridlok> what happens is that when it asks for "newpc login" and i don't put anything in...or put root in...i'll get a string of sendmail errors
[07:27:05] <gridlok> and, if i hit enter after waiting a bit, i'll get a new line that says "newpc login"
[07:28:51] <gridlok> if i put in "root," it will display a bunch of stuff like "sunos internal development","sunos version 5.11" along with the guys name who's responsible for the build
[07:28:56] <gridlok> and then i'll get the #
[07:29:11] <gridlok> and maybe i just don't know how to launch the GUI?
[07:29:14] <WickedWicky> morning
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[07:30:42] <WickedWicky> gridlok: do you get the message that its starting the GUI at least?
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[07:31:00] <gridlok> not that i've seen
[07:31:14] <WickedWicky> well, for me, it sometimes takes up to 5 minutes
[07:31:15] <myrkraverk> have you waited for a bit, without attpemting to log in?
[07:31:27] <WickedWicky> what you might try is type is exit the shell
[07:31:50] <WickedWicky> JDS should resume after some time when you exit console mode
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[07:32:07] <WickedWicky> so, logout from the shell, grab a coffee, read a news paper and see what it does after a minute or five
[07:32:26] <gridlok> yeah, i waited and waited and the cd spun down and the hd stopped being accessed...
[07:32:31] <WickedWicky> yesterday I asked the same question as of why it takes so long to login to JDS
[07:32:52] <gridlok> what's the command?  "exit the shell"?
[07:33:00] <WickedWicky> thats not the command
[07:33:02] <WickedWicky> I just woke up
[07:33:03] <gridlok> i didn't realize this one ran on java desktop
[07:33:05] <WickedWicky> just exit the shell
[07:33:08] <myrkraverk> exit
[07:33:10] <myrkraverk> logout
[07:33:11] <gridlok> exit
[07:33:16] <myrkraverk> both should work
[07:33:28] <gridlok> i tried that and it doesn't do anything
[07:34:20] <gridlok> i do know that if i press in the power button it says it's stopping 54 services and to wait while it's shutting down and then it does...about a minute or so later
[07:34:27] <gridlok> so something seems to be running
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[07:36:30] <gridlok> is there a command to launch a gui, like "exec jds" or something like that?
[07:36:33] <unixware> i love girls that use solaris
[07:36:55] <WickedWicky> unixware: me too, especialy when they are good looking as well
[07:37:19] <unixware> WickedWicky yeah :P
[07:38:04] <WickedWicky> gridlok: svcsadm enable application/graphical-login/cde-login:default
[07:39:50] <gridlok> is that whole line the command?
[07:39:55] <WickedWicky> oui
[07:39:57] <gridlok> i'll write it down and try it
[07:40:02] <unixware> i have a project for a online local news paper, is it good idea to have solaris 10 a server or may get the solaris 9?
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[07:40:54] <gridlok> brb
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[07:43:51] <jbalint> Hi
[07:44:04] <jbalint> is there a way to specify the shared library for a function-breakpoint?
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[07:47:31] <jmcp> WickedWicky: svcadm, not svcsadm
[07:47:46] <WickedWicky> yea gods
[07:47:53] <WickedWicky> you're right
[07:48:04] <WickedWicky> (you know you are)
[07:48:25] <WickedWicky> BFU-ed machines aren't live upgradeable, am I correct?
[07:48:40] <jmcp> correct
[07:49:28] <WickedWicky> safes downloading ISO images I guess! :D
[07:50:08] <WickedWicky> stupid question maybe, but can I make a backup of my ZFS configuration? in case I have to do a clean install or something?
[07:50:22] <flyingparchment> there is no zfs configuration
[07:50:27] <flyingparchment> just export the pool and import it later
[07:50:43] <WickedWicky> that assumes the controller order stays the same I assume?
[07:50:47] <flyingparchment> no
[07:50:50] <flyingparchment> it uses the device id
[07:50:53] <WickedWicky> oh!
[07:50:54] <WickedWicky> awesome
[07:50:57] <WickedWicky> thanks :)
[07:51:01] <flyingparchment> actually for import i'm not even sure it does that
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[07:51:05] <flyingparchment> but anyway, it'll work
[07:51:06] <jmcp> WickedWicky: do you much about device ids?
[07:51:17] <WickedWicky> do I what?
[07:52:10] <tsoome> well, as you can export in one machine and import in another...
[07:52:14] <WickedWicky> I have c0d0 c1d0 c4d0 c6d0 c6d1 c9d0
[07:52:33] <flyingparchment> c9? you have too many controllers :)
[07:52:35] <jmcp> those are device names, not device ids
[07:52:38] <WickedWicky> no
[07:52:53] <WickedWicky> it allocated c9 cause i swapped controller brands and it assigned a new controller id
[07:52:59] <WickedWicky>  oh wait
[07:53:08] <jmcp> WickedWicky: if you have a look at the output from "prtconf -v" or "prtpicl -v" you'll see a "devid" property for each of your disks
[07:53:23] <jmcp> that's what ZFS looks at to maintain persistence of useful stuff
[07:53:34] <flyingparchment> btw, what's this about device id changing if you move disks between controllers?  how can that happen?
[07:53:44] <WickedWicky> it doesnt
[07:53:47] <WickedWicky> but, I come from linux
[07:54:06] <WickedWicky> and sda became sde after a reboot for example
[07:54:10] <jmcp> flyingparchment: it doesn't
[07:54:13] <WickedWicky> since it did parallel probing of the ports
[07:54:22] <jmcp> which is so, like, bogus
[07:54:23] <flyingparchment> jmcp: hmm, i thought yesterday someone said it might somehow
[07:54:33] <jmcp> it reallyreally shouldn't
[07:54:38] <jmcp> the underlying information should not be changing
[07:54:41] <flyingparchment> yeah, it seemed odd to me :)
[07:54:45] <flyingparchment> maybe i misunderstood
[07:54:53] <jmcp> I've got a presentation about device ids
[07:55:06] <jmcp> been hanging off putting it on my blog but I'll upload it now
[07:55:28] <WickedWicky> if ZFS uses devid then it shouldnt even matter on which ATA controller i put the disks since the devid is unique by mentioning the brand and serial number of the disk
[07:55:42] <WickedWicky> if ituses dev_link or _dev_path then you might have a problem
[07:55:47] <flyingparchment> yes
[07:55:48] <WickedWicky> so, I assume I am good and safe
[07:55:55] <flyingparchment> import/export is meant for (among other things) moving pools between computers
[07:55:56] <jmcp> WickedWicky: for ATA crap we fake-up a devid
[07:56:05] <flyingparchment> so there is no kind of dependency on the disk layout
[07:57:16] <jmcp> http://www.jmcp.homeunix.com/~jmcp/WhatIsAGuid.pdf
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[08:12:06] <gridlok> wicked:  no luck...on either the 32 bit or 64 bit side
[08:12:25] <gridlok> wicked:  i'm downloading an earlier build now
[08:12:42] <WickedWicky> hum
[08:13:03] <WickedWicky> jmcp: reading the pdf
[08:13:18] <jmcp> feedback welcomed
[08:14:55] <WickedWicky> for PATA is it really faked or just generated in a different way? it should be possible to make a unique devid based on real queryable data from an ATA disk
[08:15:17] <jmcp> it really is faked
[08:15:37] <jmcp> there is real queriable data in ATA, but it is nowhere near as good as what you can get from scsi and scsi-like devices
[08:16:07] <WickedWicky> well okay, but you can query the serial number of the disk , the make and model
[08:16:19] <WickedWicky> that should be enough to generate a unique devid
[08:16:46] <jmcp> which is in fact what we do
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[08:17:01] <jmcp> it's just that for scsi et al, we can get more appropriate information
[08:17:05] <WickedWicky> so its not really fake data then that constructs the devid, thats what i meant to ask
[08:17:36] <WickedWicky> is /etc/path_to_inst related to this all?
[08:17:37] <jmcp> ok, true
[08:17:39] <jmcp> no
[08:17:58] <jmcp> it's fake in the sense of we're not querying the Page83 inquiry info
[08:18:02] * jmcp splits hairs
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[08:18:41] <WickedWicky> dont do that, you'll need a hair cut soon
[08:19:01] <WickedWicky> ok, I am going to the train now and read the PDF more deeply
[08:19:15] <WickedWicky> I will be back soon and fire off some questions if any :D
[08:19:41] <WickedWicky> take care now and thanks :)
[08:20:03] <jmcp> ciaociao
[08:20:40] <WickedWicky> I'd say 'ciao bella' but that sounds odd
[08:20:51] <WickedWicky> it'd be about the only italian I know though
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[08:21:55] <Teknomancer> mamma mia
[08:23:04] <mkanat> Yep, ATA = The Suck.
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[08:30:51] <boyd> Holy crap... they're re-scanning the Apollo photos.. the panoramic camera images (scanned at 200px/mm) produce images that are 11.8GB each. And there are 4,612 of them
[08:31:24] * jmcp whistles
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[08:32:28] <Gekkko> whose going to download that >_>
[08:32:29] <g4lt-mordant> boyd, the joy of film, you can rescan as needed to get optimal rendering
[08:32:36] <boyd> Not to mention the 20000 hasselblad pics at 230-313 MB each
[08:32:37] <g4lt-mordant> Gekkko, me, for one
[08:32:48] <Gekkko> all of them?
[08:33:10] <jmcp> right, blogged
[08:33:12] <jmcp> finally
[08:33:20] * quasi caffeinates - quad-spresso is kicking in
[08:35:19] * boyd polls google reader... your post isn't up yet, jmcp! :)
[08:35:44] <jmcp> boyd: go direct to the source then :)
[08:36:39] <boyd> Oops... I just saw a post from ahl that is in google reader but seems to be gone from his blog...
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[08:37:49] <boyd> Ah, the GUID preso... I chatted to you about that IIRC
[08:38:20] <jmcp> yes
[08:39:15] <jmcp> boyd: it's in google reader now
[08:39:52] <boyd> Hmm... not mine.. they must not all update in parallel... makes sense
[08:45:43] * jmcp rotfl @ http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/07/31/tossfest_2007/
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[08:50:39] <richlowe> oh dear
[08:51:29] <jmcp> richlowe: what?
[08:51:38] <jmcp> the logo? yeah ... it's ..... special
[08:52:32] <boyd> Ha!
[08:56:26] <g4lt-mordant> so, I wonder if anyone told them of the colloquial meaning of tossfest?
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[08:57:53] * g4lt-mordant wants to be the fly on the wall when they're told "um, you might not want to call it tossfest, especially using a circle logo, since a tossfest is a circle jerk"
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[09:06:17] <PerterB> Considering it's the Reg, I'm surprised they didn't go with "Are you a hardened tosser?"
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[09:12:11] <WickedWicky> g'day cmihai
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[09:12:53] <cmihai> G'day mate :-)
[09:13:25] <WickedWicky> I'm falling in a black hole at work today I am afraid
[09:13:36] <cmihai> Oh my.
[09:13:38] <WickedWicky> the project I was on for two years got its commercial launch yesterday
[09:13:43] * WickedWicky feels officialy stressless
[09:13:57] <cmihai> Wait for the official bug reports and sales statements :-]
[09:14:06] <WickedWicky> HAHA
[09:14:23] <WickedWicky> yes, you are right, maybe I should enjoy my stress-less period for the days I can
[09:16:03] <WickedWicky> how are you?
[09:16:33] <cmihai> Not bad, enjoying my work ;-)
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[09:17:50] <g4lt-mordant> there, I jumped in the morass of osol-discuss
[09:18:10] <WickedWicky> g4lt-mordant: you're a masochist
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[09:18:32] <WickedWicky> I am actually looking at the community pages right now to see what lists I should/could join
[09:18:33] <g4lt-mordant> sort of.  it was for a good cause, sun4m support in opensolaris ;)
[09:18:35] <cmihai> g4lt-mordant: About Indinana and Gentoo model. (Important!!!!!)
[09:18:41] <g4lt-mordant> yup
[09:18:42] <cmihai> g4lt-mordant: that one? God I hope not.
[09:19:35] <WickedWicky> "You can pull the source from the ON Mercurial repository here by doing:
[09:19:38] <g4lt-mordant> why not?  I stand behind it 100%.  if legacy support is to be discussed in opensolaris, the first priority MUST be sun4m
[09:19:39] <WickedWicky> that's not valid anymore, is it?
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[09:19:58] <WickedWicky> i thought the tar balls on the download page were substituting the mecurial download
[09:20:11] <g4lt-mordant> X86 support is and should be an afterthought
[09:20:28] <cmihai> There's a bloke saying Solaris must support 486 with 64 RAM machines
[09:20:32] <WickedWicky> kill x86 support and I'll become murderous
[09:21:05] <g4lt-mordant> yup, and my point is that the first priority for old hardware must be the hardware solaris shines on, sparc
[09:21:32] <g4lt-mordant> WickedWicky, I don't want to kill it, I just disagree that it needs to be first priority
[09:21:33] <WickedWicky> you're aware that Sun is shipping AMD processors right?
[09:21:39] <WickedWicky> well maybe not first
[09:21:49] <cmihai> Sun is also shipping Intel :P
[09:21:52] <WickedWicky> yea
[09:22:02] <cmihai> Blades though.
[09:22:21] <WickedWicky> so eventhough Solaris shines on sparc, priority should be equal to all cpu architectures that Sun ships
[09:22:22] <WickedWicky> all IMO of course
[09:22:36] <g4lt-mordant> either way, they're not shipping 486es OR sun4ms.  and if the re IS to be a discussion of legacy support, intel can take the back seat it deserves
[09:22:41] <cmihai> Solaris is just fine on x86-64.
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[09:23:10] <g4lt-mordant> I'm not too sure that the if there is even a plausubility
[09:23:25] <cmihai> Just as long as the hardware is supported (and it does support a fair share of hardware platforms).
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[09:23:41] <cmihai> Hell, most of the stuff Sun / HP / IBM / Dell ships (x86) is supported.
[09:23:49] <WickedWicky> yea, I agree
[09:24:12] <WickedWicky> it depends on the strategy Sun wants to set as well what shouuld have priority too prolly
[09:24:15] <cmihai> It's the "random budget gaming platform with crap ass boatware controllers and such" that isn't well supported.
[09:24:20] <WickedWicky> but that sounds a bit too marketing-ish from me
[09:24:48] <WickedWicky> cmihai: reffering to my Promis controllers? :P
[09:25:02] <g4lt-mordant> and my point is that intel does not need to EVER be first priority in solaris.
[09:25:08] <cmihai> Yes, the "crap controllers" includes Promise.
[09:25:09] <richlowe> Why?
[09:25:12] <WickedWicky> eventhough I have to say, 8/10 things work in my laptop
[09:25:17] <richlowe> you haven't got to that bit yet.
[09:26:11] <cmihai> g4lt-mordant: As long as Sun sells Opteron and Intels, I'm afraid x86 MUST be a Tier 1 platform and get the same toys, patches support and tools the SPARC ones do.
[09:26:12] <g4lt-mordant> richlowe, because at that point, we may as well just turn it over to the ubuntu-horde and shut the lights out.  there's already too many X86-isms in other OSes, we don't need to add them
[09:26:34] <oxygene> WickedWicky: Do you really trust controllers that _promise_ to watch after your data?
[09:26:35] <g4lt-mordant> cmihai, coequal yes, NEVER first
[09:27:08] <WickedWicky> g4lt-mordant: maybe not first, that is if Sun finds it important to pursued (spelling) people in buying sparc when they want to run Solaris. If Sun's target it so make solaris be ran on most datacenter servers or be ran on a bigger share of servers in general, then priority on intel compatible hardware might not be such a strange idea
[09:27:20] <WickedWicky> oxygene: no, that's why I ditched them
[09:27:38] <WickedWicky> oxygene: it's just that I got a third and fourth ATA controller on my mainboard with that shipset
[09:27:56] <cmihai> g4lt-mordant: you're right here, making x86 the primary target will make the 2 platforms sort of incompatible.. it's already happening to some extent.
[09:28:14] <cmihai> g4lt-mordant: see the whole XOrg vs. XSun, grub / etc deals.
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[09:28:37] <WickedWicky> they really wanna use grub for sparc btw?
[09:28:38] <g4lt-mordant> yeah, the grub on sparc is schadenfreude at its finest
[09:28:49] <g4lt-mordant> WickedWicky, yes
[09:28:51] <WickedWicky> I dont see the point
[09:29:00] * g4lt-mordant hands WickedWicky a ceegar
[09:29:07] <cmihai> heh
[09:29:10] <oxygene> I still plan the opposite: smartfirmware (an OF implementation) as opensolaris bootloader
[09:29:22] <richlowe> g4lt-mordant: no.
[09:29:28] <oxygene> damn time constraints
[09:29:34] <richlowe> at least, the newboot sparc arc case specifically discounts it.
[09:29:41] <WickedWicky> I can only imagine people wanting grub on sparc when they have multi boot
[09:29:55] <richlowe> g4lt-mordant: very, very little has need to be ISA specific.
[09:30:06] <richlowe> g4lt-mordant: and there's many things that are and shouldn't be.
[09:30:12] <g4lt-mordant> richlowe, the reason that the arc case specifically discounts it is BECAUSE IT WAS ASKED ABOUT
[09:30:20] <richlowe> so really, whichever platform people care about doesn't matter.
[09:30:39] <richlowe> g4lt-mordant: Yes, and the fact they'd mentioned doing it, previously.
[09:31:31] <oxygene> I don't see the problem in providing zfs to openfirmware and load kernel and drivers directly - or did sun fire all openfirmware devs?
[09:31:42] <oxygene> (ermm.. RIF them</pc>)
[09:31:44] <Gekkko> emacs or vi
[09:31:45] <Gekkko> :P
[09:31:48] <richlowe> TECO!
[09:31:51] <cmihai> ed(1)
[09:31:54] <WickedWicky> Gekkko: ed
[09:31:57] <cmihai> richlowe: MUNG until no good :-)
[09:33:13] <cmihai> TECO / MUNG was fun. I had a brainfuck interpreter written in TECO, that ran a DeCSS program written in brainfuck :-)
[09:33:29] <boyd> richlowe: I don't see them discounting it.. they discount grub 1.x but explicitly discuss grub2 several times
[09:34:06] <g4lt-mordant> oh dear god no
[09:34:13] <richlowe> boyd: there's a lot of "if".
[09:34:35] <richlowe> boyd: also, 3.3
[09:34:38] <boyd> the whole freakin' thing should be a big "if" if you ask me :)
[09:34:43] <g4lt-mordant> I've got an idea, let's just put in silo as well and make it a complete mess
[09:34:54] <quasi> I thought grub on sparc was seen as a requirement for zfs boot
[09:35:01] * boyd looks
[09:35:34] <richlowe> quasi: the initial onepager for zfsboot mentioned such a thing, the spec used at the inception didn't.
[09:35:55] <g4lt-mordant> I'm beginning to start quoting the marines in StarCraft: "give me somethin to shoot"
[09:36:27] <cmihai> How about someone?
[09:36:30] <cmihai> A someone is a something...
[09:36:35] <cmihai> Or a thing after it's shot anyway...
[09:36:40] <oxygene> the whole boot system is a huge stack of layers of hacks *grumbles*
[09:36:41] <g4lt-mordant> I'm taking names...
[09:36:43] <boyd> richlowe: True, but then they kinda look forward to it in 6.5
[09:37:05] <oxygene> no matter if sparc or x86, in this case they're really equal: sucks everywhere
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[09:37:31] <boyd> Pretty much all boot architectures are awful at some level
[09:38:12] <richlowe> boyd: true.
[09:38:25] <richlowe> boyd: using grub purely to present a menu is bloody stupid, however.
[09:38:28] <g4lt-mordant> I dunno, I liked the BASIC interpreter machines boot code ;P
[09:38:46] <richlowe> the spectrum at least booted with pretty colors.
[09:38:50] <quasi> richlowe: great - I was never too keen on seeing grub on sparc
[09:39:19] <boyd> richlowe: Yes, yes it is
[09:39:46] <g4lt-mordant> okay, what packages do you install to "bootstrap" a SXDE install on a low memory machine?
[09:40:19] <richlowe> install using the regular installer, install studio afterward.
[09:40:22] <g4lt-mordant> (ie install SXCE and add the relevant packages after install)
[09:40:30] <g4lt-mordant> just SUNWspro then?
[09:40:35] <richlowe> I think you're stuck with the other DEisms either way
[09:40:40] <richlowe> I seem to have DE-ish crud I don't want, anyway.
[09:41:02] <richlowe> because the 106M of lash in /usr/share/doc/soldevex sure is handy!
[09:41:03] <richlowe> *spit*
[09:41:08] <richlowe> s/lash/flash/
[09:41:08] <g4lt-mordant> since this is my craptop, I really don't care much
[09:41:21] <cmihai> g4lt-mordant: just don't select developer
[09:41:25] <cmihai> g4lt-mordant: and install in text mode.
[09:41:28] <g4lt-mordant> (and no, it's not one of gdamore's :(
[09:41:41] <cmihai> Developer mode needs 768 RAM to expand the RAMDISK to fit the Sun Studio installer
[09:41:47] <cmihai> Just add that later
[09:41:57] <g4lt-mordant> cmihai, no, it has enough for the web install, just not the extra JVM that's needed to install SXDE
[09:42:34] <cmihai> g4lt-mordant: 512?
[09:42:39] <g4lt-mordant> yeah
[09:43:03] <cmihai> It's fine then :-).
[09:43:24] <g4lt-mordant> I plan on talking ot micorn to get that fixed, but I have too many other irons in the fire for a while
[09:43:54] <g4lt-mordant> to micron even
[09:44:27] <oxygene> hmm.. reading the sparc zfsboot document, it really looks as if sun RIFd all OF developers.. "we can't do EFI disklabels" bah..
[09:48:43] <boyd> Seems that way... of course, the OF path would probably mean that it couldn't boot on old boxes...
[09:49:19] <oxygene> boyd: as long as it's fcode and not a firmware upgrade to patch the C code, I see no reason for that
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[10:00:04] <g4lt-mordant> well, it's now official.  the only redmondware in my house is the sunpci ahd the workathome computer, which I can't mess with at the cost of my job :)
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[10:01:36] <g4lt-mordant> and I really need to talk to micron about the sunpci as well :/
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[10:33:35] <farsan> ello
[10:33:48] <WickedWicky> why do they name tv kid shows "smart rabbit" and show a mouse?
[10:34:55] <Cyrille> to teach kids at an early age that tv lies.
[10:35:08] <oxygene> WickedWicky: to make it an intellectual challenge for older people, too - after all, you can now think about why they did it until the show finished :)
[10:37:20] <WickedWicky> haha
[10:37:32] <WickedWicky> so for two years I worked on a project that spread lies
[10:37:33] <WickedWicky> how nice
[10:37:48] <WickedWicky> but now for inteligent tv. "Alfred Jodocus Duck"
[10:37:54] <WickedWicky> damn i feel old by watching this
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[10:40:55] <timsf> Morning
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[10:42:23] <farsan> i just hooked a IBM 3502 R14 DLT library system to my 220r. Any idea for a free software to make backups with?
[10:42:43] <WickedWicky> tar
[10:43:38] <hali> bacula is free
[10:43:43] <hali> but sucks
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[10:43:50] <flyingparchment> tar!
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[10:44:13] <hali> just tar won't get you very far
[10:45:02] <hali> mtx and tar possibly
[10:45:38] <farsan> I've got 2Tb to backup. Tar is not an option...
[10:45:43] <cmihai> farsan: on Solaris you have ufsdump(1M) and it supports snapshots.
[10:46:56] <hali> i can't see why tar wouldn't be an option, it's not a great option though
[10:47:36] <cmihai> pax(1), cpio(1), tar(1), gtar(1) combined with gzip(1) and find(1) and touch(1) can get you pretty far in terms of incremental backups (touch level0 && find -newer) but it's hardly a proper backup application... same as a dd over ssh hack.
[10:48:08] <cmihai> Now if you really want near Continous Data Protection (CDP)..  you need to look at things that support snapshots.
[10:48:17] <cmihai> Like rsync-snapshot, rsnapshot or rsync with snapshots.
[10:48:28] <hali> sounds a bit hacky to me
[10:48:42] <hali> vertias netbackup or tsm springs to mind but are *far* from free :)
[10:48:46] <cmihai> farsan: could you give me a few more clues as to what setup you're attempting? Networked backups? How many clients / etc.
[10:48:54] <farsan> but still, how do i controll the tape-library?
[10:49:13] <cmihai> hali: sure, you can do Veritas NetBackup, BackupExec, EMC Legato Networker, IBM Tivolli backup and so on, but those cost money. A LOT of money.
[10:49:41] <cmihai> Then there's the second rate open source stuff like Bacula and BackupPC... not very good ideas if the backups database dies and so on.
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[10:50:42] <WickedWicky> rebooooooooooooot
[10:50:45] <WickedWicky> brb
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[10:51:11] <farsan> cmihai: it's just my fileserver, about 2Tb to backup. The tape library is attached direct to the server.
[10:51:31] <cmihai> farsan: so it will all be local backups.
[10:51:42] <PerterB> or Amanda, although last time I looked it still couldn't handle backups than needed to span tapes
[10:51:43] <farsan> Yepp
[10:51:44] <cmihai> Well, no point in a client - server model then. How often do you need to take backups?
[10:52:04] <cmihai> Do you need near-CDP or not?
[10:52:07] <farsan> cmihai: not that often.
[10:52:16] <cmihai> So daily would be fine?
[10:52:17] <hali> set the library to sequential access and ufsdump it?
[10:52:20] <hali> or tar?
[10:52:53] <farsan> cmihai: Daily is more the fine. =)
[10:53:11] <cmihai> I'm thinking a ufsdump(1M) with a modified Tower of Hanoi algorythm to use the least amount of tapes for maximum protection would be fine for you.
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[10:54:14] <cmihai> You basically do a Level 0 dump...
[10:54:31] <cmihai> Then use something like 3 2 5 4 7 6 9 8 9 9 ...
[10:55:08] <cmihai> I'm talking about dump levels that is. This is basically the best backup algorythm. Just don't mix it up wrong :-). Make yourself a nice backup schedule...
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[10:56:21] <farsan> cmihai: oki, thanks for the help. I'll give ufsdump a try.
[10:56:58] <flyingparchment> what does this mean? http://rafb.net/p/vIjhW828.html - there's no actual error?
[10:57:01] <cmihai> rsync might be easier to use, but remember, without snapshots it's not a backup application :-). So see rsync-snapshot, rsnapshot or rsync with snapshots if you're going down that path.
[10:57:04] <farsan> Well, since it's a zfs-volume I think I need to use a zfs-snapshot
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[10:59:00] <hali> farsan: isn't the 3502 a 14 slot library?
[10:59:13] <cmihai> farsan: well, not exactly, it's a bit more complex is you want proper daily backups with ZFS :_)
[10:59:28] <cmihai> farsan: what tapes do you have in that, 35Gig or so DLT?
[10:59:43] <cmihai> As in, isn't your library 1TB (raw)?
[10:59:45] <hali> farsan: so with 14 slots and DLT8000 (biggest size non-SDLT drives), you still only have 1.1Tb compressed space in the library and hence a full backup spans more than a full library.. which is bad
[10:59:58] <cmihai> hali: yeah, I was thinking the same thing.
[11:00:30] <PerterB> "you're going to need a bigger boat^H^H^H^Htape drive"
[11:00:38] <cmihai> Hehe
[11:00:53] <cmihai> In his case, I'd just get a bunch of 1TB external drives :P
[11:01:15] <hali> nah
[11:01:24] <cmihai> Well, it's a lot cheaper.
[11:01:27] <hali> i'd just get a eastern european guy to change tapes at 4am in the morning :)
[11:01:28] <farsan> hali & cmihai: It's 14slot dlt 35gb/tape
[11:01:33] <hali> thats how we do things in the UK
[11:01:40] <PerterB> hali: 'sright
[11:02:04] <cmihai> farsan: Yeah, I figured it's 35GB :-). Too small...
[11:02:20] <farsan> But legato networker will do the job?
[11:02:34] <cmihai> farsan: eh?
[11:02:53] <cmihai> Legato is just EMC's backup tool
[11:02:54] <hali> it will, if you change tapes all the time
[11:03:00] <Tempt> Need a tape monkey.
[11:03:08] <cmihai> No app will fix your space problem :-)
[11:03:16] <cmihai> It's not a tool problem, it's a not enough gun problem
[11:03:47] <hali> since you say you don't need a full backup every day, you could split the dataset over two full backs and alternate between them... wonky but good if you feel lazy
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[11:04:10] <cmihai> Not exactly a good idea...
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[11:04:24] <cmihai> Like it or not, you need a full backup at LEAST once a month.
[11:04:53] <cmihai> (not to mention the fact you should keep it around for a few months) :P
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[11:05:29] <farsan> If this server get one backup per week it's good enough. I think i can change tapes once a week.
[11:05:41] <PerterB> which with 35G tapes is going to lead to a tape storage problem,
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[11:05:49] <cmihai> farsan: well, if you have lots of tapes and a tape monkey...
[11:06:03] <cmihai> You could... but... you'd have to change quite a few tapes
[11:06:06] <farsan> I've got 73 Tapes
[11:06:15] <farsan> =)
[11:06:18] <anilg> hmm could a bunch of you guys run 'scanpci | digest -a md5' on your opensolaris terminal a few times and report the string and if it was constant
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[11:06:33] 
[11:06:33] <cmihai> farsan: yeah, but you'd need to change some 60 tapes for a full backup :P
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[11:07:35] <cmihai> farsan: incrementals / differentials wouldn't be all that bad though.
[11:07:48] <cmihai> Unless it's a really used fs..
[11:07:53] <farsan> just for clearing things up, it's my fileserver at home.
[11:08:20] <hali> ah, then just skipe /porn and you are alright with one tape :)
[11:08:24] <cmihai> 73 tapes.. don't those weigh like 20 kilos? :P
[11:08:24] <farsan> ;)
[11:09:21] <Tempt> If you're looking for a lazy home backup option for spanning tapes, you can use zfs snapshot + star. star will span tapes quite well, and you can script around it to send library commands to load new tapes.
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[11:10:40] <farsan> cmihai: A bit more then that... But i got the tapes and the tape-library for free, so I'm happy. =)
[11:10:44] <Gekkko> I hate people who refuse to use CLI
[11:10:48] <Gekkko> I <3 the cli
[11:11:18] <Tempt> Gekkko++
[11:11:43] <cmihai> farsan: that's cool :-)
[11:12:07] <cmihai> farsan: hey, worst case scenario you learn something new :-]
[11:12:32] <farsan> dammit, I hate when that happeds...
[11:12:40] <Gekkko> cp -rf is so much faster than click-n-drag
[11:12:43] <Gekkko> in any system.
[11:12:49] <PerterB> something like "be sure and lable the tapes clearly" :)
[11:12:49] <Gekkko> ... except Amiga.
[11:12:50] <Gekkko> lol
[11:13:05] <farsan> PerterB: there are bare-codes. =)
[11:13:13] <cmihai> farsan: got a bar code reader?
[11:14:10] <farsan> cmihai: jepps. =)
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[11:21:25] <farsan> Thanks for the help btw. =)'
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[11:23:17] <aruiz> timsf, do you have your nickname registered/identified?
[11:23:38] <timsf> dunno, don't think so
[11:23:42] <aruiz> he!
[11:23:46] <aruiz> then you cannot privmsg
[11:23:49] <aruiz> that's why!
[11:23:50] <aruiz> X-)
[11:25:39] *** farsan is now known as toblun
[11:25:40] <timsf> Hmm, so you weren't getting my "yeah, I'm here, how can I help?" messages ?
[11:26:09] <aruiz> nope at all
[11:26:30] <aruiz> timsf, that has happened to me several times
[11:27:02] <timsf> Hrm. How should I go about fixing that?
[11:27:22] <aruiz> msg nickserv register
[11:27:27] <aruiz> :)
[11:27:47] <aruiz> and then, everytime you login, msg nickserv identify <password>
[11:27:57] <timsf> okay, done
[11:31:56] 
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[11:33:07] <toblun> hehe
[11:33:27] <toblun> i think I'll go for the coffee machine
[11:33:27] <toblun> ;)
[11:33:35] <PerterB> likewise
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[11:37:57] <Teknomancer> ok i badly need a better chat/IRC software :( Gaim crashes quite oftne
[11:38:10] <Teknomancer> is there Pidgin for opensolaris?
[11:38:25] <Teknomancer> i mean binaries, not in the mood for porting it :P
[11:39:34] <PerterB> irssi
[11:40:09] <WickedWicky> Teknomancer: pidgin comes with default in JDS
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[11:41:12] <Teknomancer> i have JDS (gnome actually) and it comes with gaim
[11:41:21] <WickedWicky> gaim is pidgin
[11:41:28] <Teknomancer> Pidgin is newer
[11:41:30] <Teknomancer> gaim is the old one
[11:41:37] <WickedWicky> then you run an old version of JDS
[11:41:56] <Teknomancer> i downloaded just some 15 days ago (devx)
[11:41:58] <Teknomancer> from the site
[11:42:01] <WickedWicky> well
[11:42:02] <WickedWicky> I run 69
[11:42:07] <WickedWicky> and I see Pidgin in the menu
[11:42:09] <Teknomancer> 69?
[11:42:16] <WickedWicky> SXCE
[11:43:03] <Teknomancer> is there a place i can download it?
[11:43:17] <WickedWicky> what? the package or nevada 69?
[11:43:35] <Teknomancer> pidgin for devx
[11:44:18] <Teknomancer> this is nevada 64a i think
[11:44:19] <WickedWicky> blastwave maybe
[11:44:28] <Teknomancer> checked there, its not there :)
[11:44:44] <palowoda> xchat from blastwave seems quite reliable.
[11:45:12] <WickedWicky> compile bitchx or something
[11:45:16] <Teknomancer> palowoda: hm, is it pure IRC or IM+IRC ?
[11:45:17] <WickedWicky> it's what I did
[11:45:31] <palowoda> irc
[11:46:25] <Tempt> irsii isn't bad for IRC.
[11:46:50] <WickedWicky> ellows palowoda, Tempt
[11:47:48] <Teknomancer> i was looking for im+irc actually... more convinient for me.
[11:47:57] <Teknomancer> pidgin to be precise :P
[11:50:18] <palowoda> Err actually your looking for something that doesn't crash. :-)
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[11:50:30] <Teknomancer> palowoda:  yes also :)
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[11:50:49] <Teknomancer> pidgin on debian was far more stable than gaim , so i'd assume it is so in solaris as well
[11:51:16] <ahhyes> can anyone help me with an issue i am having with opensolaris snv_69/x86 - Its an X/DRI related issue.
[11:51:22] <Teknomancer> need a short break... brb
[11:52:39] <ahhyes> :)
[11:55:54] <palowoda> ahhyes did you post the details of the problem on the xwindows-discuss list on the opensolaris.org site?
[11:56:48] <ahhyes> i posted something on opensolaris.org/jive/forum
[11:56:55] <ahhyes> perhaps i put it on the wrong area
[11:57:14] <palowoda> This list: http://www.opensolaris.org/jive/forum.jspa?forumID=25
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[11:58:04] <ahhyes> if I have posted to the wrong area, will a moderator move it there?
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[11:58:31] <palowoda> not really you have to do it yourself
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[12:00:26] <ahhyes> theres no facility to move the message, only to edit
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[12:00:39] <ahhyes> unless I create a duplicate post
[12:01:45] <HarryR> hmm does OpenSolaris support zones?
[12:01:58] <palowoda> Well your trying to get attention of the Xorg developers and that is where they hang out.  By the way what is the url of the original post you made on the DRI problem?
[12:02:46] <ahhyes> can I paste full URL's in here without getting booted?
[12:02:53] <ahhyes> i am new here. sorry.
[12:03:13] <palowoda> yes you can post urls.
[12:03:20] <sickness> HarryR: sure, whatever sol10 supports plus more
[12:03:20] <HarryR> ahhyes, yes, but it'd help if you used tinyurl :)
[12:03:26] <HarryR> ah cool
[12:03:35] <ahhyes> http://www.opensolaris.org/jive/thread.jspa?threadID=36389&tstart=0
[12:03:51] <ahhyes> i'm not too sure what the problem is, i could be barking up the wrong tree in my post.
[12:04:43] <ahhyes> I think the crux of the problem is :drmOpenDevice: node name is /dev/dri/card0
[12:04:55] <ahhyes> and theres no card0 entry in /dev/dri/
[12:06:00] <palowoda> I can't remember which specific Intel graphics chipset had DRI support.  But you really want to get that post into the xwindows-discuss list.   Just copy and past it in a new post.
[12:06:01] <ahhyes> i dont know if its related to the agptarget or i915 side of things
[12:06:27] <ahhyes> ok :-) will do
[12:07:02] <palowoda> The guys that did the DRI on the Intel based cards are in China.  They should be hanging out on that list.
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[12:14:21] <ahhyes> thanks for pointing me in the right direction palowoda
[12:14:25] <ahhyes> :)
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[12:29:49] <Teknomancer> gaim :(
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[12:36:13] <Tempt> Teknomancer: install irssi
[12:36:37] <Cass> whats up with gaim ?
[12:36:45] <Teknomancer> it started sending HTML
[12:36:48] <Teknomancer> everyone was annoyed
[12:36:52] <Cass> :-) lol
[12:36:53] <Teknomancer> had to close and re-open
[12:37:00] <Teknomancer> man :))
[12:37:07] <Tempt> <lol/>
[12:37:08] <Tempt> heh.
[12:37:27] <Cass> i see that when i cut and paste from it
[12:40:59] <whaq_> hi
[12:41:10] <whaq_> what's the simplest imap server to install on solaris?
[12:42:31] <palowoda> Most likely dovecot from blastwave.org
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[12:43:06] <whaq_> is it simpler than cyrus?
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[12:43:51] <palowoda> yeah.
[12:44:11] <Tempt> Dovecot is pretty good, courier-imap is really, really easy to get going.
[12:44:22] <Tempt> Builds from source with no hassles using Sun's compiler
[12:46:30] * WickedWicky runs qmail + vpopmail + courier-imap
[12:46:48] <WickedWicky> works neat, virtual imap mailboxes
[12:46:53] <WickedWicky> virtualhost, that is
[12:47:01] <palowoda> It's always amazed me why Sun never delivered an imap server by defualt in any solaris or opensolaris versions.
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[12:48:59] <Doc> they want to sell sun java netscape open planet mail server thingy
[12:49:13] <WickedWicky> iplanet
[12:49:14] <WickedWicky> ugh
[12:50:16] <palowoda> Doc:  Oh yeah right someone who is serious about using Solaris as a mail server is that stupid.
[12:50:41] * WickedWicky whistles
[12:50:45] * WickedWicky mumbles: kpn does
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[12:53:00] <quasi> I thought there was an SFWimap
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[12:54:34] <Tempt> palowoda: I've heard Sun's JES mailserver stuff is pretty good.
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[12:56:16] <palowoda> Tempt: Scary I was on the JES mailserver team at Sun when it was first brought over from Netscape. :)
[12:56:33] <Tempt> Hey, I've heard that things have got a lot better.
[12:56:40] <Tempt> I know a couple of major ISPs are using it now.
[12:56:46] <palowoda> Yes it's good but it's not delivered by default.
[12:57:01] <Tempt> You get a JES DVD in the media pack; that's reasonably default.
[12:57:52] <palowoda> Ok lets buy it.  It will only increase my stock value.
[12:58:19] <Tempt> heh.
[12:58:26] <Tempt> I'm exim+courier imap myself.
[12:58:49] <palowoda> I use a custom UofW version.
[13:00:04] <palowoda> At least modified for shared libs.
[13:00:31] <palowoda> But I'm an old fart.
[13:00:48] <Tempt> I'll probably try dovecot on my next mailserver.
[13:01:06] <palowoda> dovecot will probably get integrated into opensolaris
[13:01:36] <Gekkko> where's my SXCE!
[13:01:48] <Gekkko> what's the missing features of E over full?
[13:01:49] <WickedWicky> I saw it buying cigarettes two seconds ago
[13:02:18] <Tempt> I think I'll always build stuff like that from source.
[13:03:08] <palowoda> I build 90 percent of my stuff from source also but I don't expect everyone to do it.
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[13:04:17] <damienc> Gekkko: http://developers.sun.com/sxde/
[13:04:34] <palowoda> sxde is a waste of time
[13:04:36] <flyingparchment> Gekkko: SXCE is "full"
[13:04:50] <flyingparchment> there are no missing features, it's just released more often than SX
[13:04:55] <whaq_> awesome, thanks
[13:05:02] <damienc> The SXDE (Developer Edition) has even more stuff - Sun Studio compiler, Netbeans
[13:05:05] <whaq_> (sorry for the lag, was checking the pages)
[13:05:25] <palowoda> damienc: what do you think is in sxce?
[13:05:36] <Gekkko> so Express just means it comes out more often?
[13:05:57] <damienc> palowoda: SXDE less compiler and netbeans
[13:06:13] <flyingparchment> Gekkko: are you talking about the X or the E?  solaris express is a preview version of what will be solaris 11.  SX community edition is like SX, but released more often
[13:06:29] <damienc> AFAIK SXCE is just a regular release, while SXDE is specifically intended for developers
[13:06:51] <Teknomancer> is SXDE=devx ?
[13:06:54] <flyingparchment> SXDE is mostly pointless.  :)
[13:07:23] <damienc> Teknomancer: Yes
[13:07:32] <Teknomancer> so why's it pointless?
[13:07:34] *** MattMan is now known as MattAFC
[13:07:36] <Teknomancer> i thought its meant for devs?
[13:07:46] <flyingparchment> you may as well just install SXCE and studio
[13:08:23] <damienc> and netbeans and postgreSQL
[13:08:30] <damienc> why do the extra steps.
[13:08:32] <damienc> ?
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[13:08:40] <flyingparchment> why would you install postgres?
[13:08:51] <Gekkko> it all comes on 2 DVDs
[13:08:54] <Gekkko> it's not that hard
[13:08:54] <Gekkko> :P
[13:08:59] <damienc> nod
[13:09:06] <Teknomancer> well... install itself took long enough :P
[13:09:17] <flyingparchment> and netbeans is part of studio
[13:09:33] <Gekkko> I wonder if anyone has attempted to compile OpenSolaris on PowerPC
[13:09:38] <Teknomancer> i guess you guys are all java fans ;)
[13:09:46] <Gekkko> I hate Java.
[13:09:47] <Gekkko> lol
[13:09:51] <flyingparchment> sun likes to delay SX builds so they can fix something to DE, which makes it negatively useful
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[13:11:02] <palowoda> DE is one of those want to be popular releases.
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[13:11:23] <Gekkko> When is Solaris 11 due?
[13:11:32] <flyingparchment> Gekkko: 2017
[13:11:37] <palowoda> 2020
[13:11:40] <Gekkko> really?
[13:11:43] <palowoda> sure
[13:11:45] <Teknomancer> coool, Unreal 3 should be outby then
[13:11:50] <Gekkko> no I mean seriously.
[13:11:51] <flyingparchment> yes,  sun only releases solaris every 10 years
[13:11:52] <Teknomancer> or not
[13:11:58] <flyingparchment> that's why it's so stable
[13:11:59] <Gekkko> lol flyingparchment
[13:12:07] <Gekkko> hmm
[13:12:08] <palowoda> they move the schedule up every 6 months.
[13:12:29] <flyingparchment> Gekkko: the real answer is: whenever.  maybe near the end of this year (but probably not).  maybe next year.
[13:12:40] <Gekkko> good answer :)
[13:12:45] <flyingparchment> my understanding is sun likes S10 (good publicity) so they aren't in a hurry to do the next one
[13:13:06] <Gekkko> I wonder if I could get a job as Sun
[13:13:11] <Gekkko> there's an office in Sydney :)
[13:13:39] <Teknomancer> there are a lot of fellow Indians at Sun
[13:14:18] <Gekkko> I'm not an indian.
[13:14:40] <flyingparchment> the early nevada builds called themselves 5.10.1, i wonder what happened with that
[13:14:53] <flyingparchment> would've been the first .1 release in quite a while :)
[13:15:11] <palowoda> That was a marketing release.
[13:16:55] <ahhyes> kekek
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[13:18:06] <Tempt> flyingparchment: since 2.5.
[13:18:08] <Tempt> 2.5.1
[13:18:11] <flyingparchment> Tempt: yes
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[13:20:22] <Teknomancer> Gekkko yes i know, but I am :P
[13:20:33] <Gekkko> I assumed.
[13:20:42] <Gekkko> "tech support"?
[13:21:03] <Gekkko> i mean "Customer service"
[13:21:09] <Gekkko> the entire human resources department :P
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[13:21:42] <Teknomancer> Gekkko ?
[13:21:51] <Gekkko> Don't mind me.,
[13:21:52] <Tempt> I think if you want a job in Sun support you need to move to Singapore or India.
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[13:22:01] <Gekkko> that's what I was getting at.
[13:22:07] <Gekkko> that's exactly what I don't want.
[13:22:08] <flyingparchment> why would you want a job in support? :)
[13:22:09] <Gekkko> lol
[13:22:10] <Teknomancer> Gekkko there are plenty of tech guys who are Indian in Sun
[13:22:17] <Teknomancer> the driver PDF for instance was written by an indian
[13:22:20] <Teknomancer> but
[13:22:23] <Teknomancer> i'm not sure if he works in India
[13:22:28] <Gekkko> I want to do something along the lines of software*
[13:22:37] <flyingparchment> i'm talking to an indian at sun, but he's in sfbay
[13:22:42] <flyingparchment> so i guess he doesn't count
[13:23:44] <Gekkko> God I hope there's still jobs in the software programming market by the time i've finished uni >_>
[13:23:56] <Gekkko> otherwise I'll have no way to pay off my uni degree :P
[13:24:15] <Tempt> heh
[13:24:18] <Tempt> love that HECS debt
[13:24:19] <Teknomancer> Gekkko yes hope open source is stopped!!!
[13:24:24] <Teknomancer> that way it'll be more secretive :P
[13:24:30] <Teknomancer> and we'll all be evil and rule!!!
[13:24:31] <Teknomancer> :D
[13:24:40] <palowoda> Hardware rules!
[13:24:44] <Gekkko> so how am I mean't to make cash exactly Teknomancer?
[13:24:46] <Tempt> Plenty of work for Java developers. My work hires plenty (in house application)
[13:25:08] <Gekkko> Tempt: I've noticed lol
[13:25:11] <Tempt> Programmers should be able to live on Peer Respect and Community Goodwill
[13:25:16] <Tempt> That's the Open Source Way!
[13:25:23] <Gekkko> as long as I don't have to use it, I'll code Java
[13:25:24] <Gekkko> >_>
[13:25:25] <Teknomancer> Gekkko if software development becomes secretive (like games back in the day) and u know how u can make money
[13:25:34] <Tempt> Eat Open Source food.
[13:25:39] <Tempt> Dream about Free Beer.
[13:25:41] <flyingparchment> Teknomancer: industrial espionage?
[13:25:43] <Gekkko> I might just become a linguist.
[13:25:50] <Tempt> a cunning one, at that?
[13:25:58] <jmcp> Tempt: you beat me to it
[13:26:01] <Teknomancer> flyingparchment:  if u'd like to call it that
[13:26:11] <Tempt> jmcp: Have to be quick!
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[13:26:29] <jmcp> Tempt: definitely, though I think cunning linguists tend to take a while to get to their destination, generally
[13:27:00] <Tempt> Heh.
[13:27:10] <Gekkko> Is it a crime to want to make 200K a year?
[13:27:11] <Gekkko> :P
[13:27:17] <jmcp> Gekkko: I don't think so
[13:27:27] <jmcp> unless perhaps you're making it in a criminal fashion
[13:27:29] * jmcp shrugs
[13:27:34] <Gekkko> there's nothing wrong with that either lol
[13:27:37] <Gekkko> :P
[13:27:50] <Gekkko> that's what I would say if I was a criminal, yes...
[13:27:56] * Gekkko feels he has covered that one up well.
[13:27:57] <Tempt> At least drugs and prositution are honest, cash-based industries with a good product in wide demand.
[13:28:27] <jmcp> that's one way of looking at them, I guess
[13:28:40] <Gekkko> lol
[13:28:44] <palowoda> Tax collectors have the best security.
[13:28:58] * Tempt works for a state tax office
[13:29:11] <Tempt> But I'm not making $200K.
[13:29:29] <Tempt> It'd be pretty hard to pull $200K in the Australian IT market doing anything technical.
[13:29:32] <Gekkko> I know there's freelance contracts for $200K a year
[13:29:43] <jmcp> Tempt: you'd be surprised
[13:29:47] <Tempt> There seems to be a wall at $180K.
[13:29:56] <jmcp> I'm not making 200k/yr either, but .....
[13:30:11] <Gekkko> I know people who make US$700K a year, from home, doing 3 contracts at once and barely lift a finger >_>
[13:30:14] <Tempt> I mean, how are we meant to live on 150? It's just not right.
[13:30:17] <Gekkko> sysadmin and programmer at one time.
[13:30:35] <jmcp> heh
[13:31:28] <jmcp> istr hearing that there's a freelance dtrace guru in the USA who allegedly charges 100k/month
[13:32:06] <Tempt> There's always the edge cases, but for the most part the market isn't that cheery.
[13:32:12] <jmcp> very true
[13:32:17] <jmcp> it's not all y2k again
[13:32:27] <Cyrille> I hope that for that price he actually turns customer's machines into gold.
[13:32:28] <Tempt> I know a few people who pull $1000/hr+, but they aren't doing enough hours for it to add up to a big yearly haul.
[13:33:03] <Gekkko> still a nice lump sum
[13:33:07] <Tempt> Hell, I've billed $AU500/hr before.
[13:33:16] <Gekkko> doing what?
[13:33:22] <Cyrille> billing $500
[13:33:35] <Tempt> SunCluster stuff
[13:34:08] <Tempt> Saving the arse of an organisation with a broken cluster and no valid Sun support.
[13:34:56] <WickedWicky> that's fairly cheap considering the hour rate for Sun's MFT
[13:35:24] <Tempt> Exactly.
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[13:35:41] <Tempt> And you can't get much help from Sun after hours with no support contract for love or money.
[13:35:54] <Tempt> It was worth the $2500 for them to get their cluster back up and running before the next morning.
[13:36:19] <WickedWicky> I bet
[13:36:25] <Gekkko> was it something simple in the end?
[13:36:34] <Tempt> But there's no way you're going to make that sort of money all the time doing SunCluster work unless you're running a consulting shop with a decent reputation
[13:36:53] <Tempt> Gekkko: Not really. It was a disksuite suicide combined with a corrupt CCR.
[13:37:02] <Tempt> and SCSI-3 PGR hell.
[13:37:05] <Gekkko> oh crap
[13:37:05] <Gekkko> lol
[13:37:06] <jmcp> yuck
[13:37:26] <Tempt> Running my own clusters on crappy hardware taught me a lot about fixing such things.
[13:37:31] <WickedWicky> then they're lucky with 2500
[13:37:55] <WickedWicky> Tempt: can you recommend me a SAN I can use for SC at home?
[13:38:06] <Tempt> Just use some SCSI storage.
[13:38:09] <Teknomancer> lol there's a cake making game in Vista
[13:38:10] <Tempt> For home ...
[13:38:19] <WickedWicky> yea, to mess around
[13:38:38] <Tempt> If you need a SAN, I'd say you'll be spending a lot of time looking at Ebay for some used Hitachi storage.
[13:38:39] <flyingparchment> usb enclosure + hub!
[13:38:52] <Tempt> flyingparchment: heh.
[13:38:54] <Gekkko> I'm going to set up a cluster for the first time soon
[13:39:03] <Tempt> Gekkko: It's bloody easy to get it set up.
[13:39:04] <Gekkko> using a bunch of old 700mhz AMD and Intels
[13:39:09] <Gekkko> maintaining it
[13:39:10] <Gekkko> that's the hard part.
[13:39:12] <Tempt> Gekkko: Even easier to deploy resources on it.
[13:39:19] <Tempt> Gekkko: Even maintenance is piss-easy
[13:39:24] <Gekkko> really?
[13:39:28] <Tempt> Gekkko: It's breaking it when it dies that'll keep you entertained.
[13:39:29] <Gekkko> then what's the hard part
[13:39:32] <Gekkko> lol
[13:39:45] <Tempt> Then again, I've had a lot of people complain to me that SC is too hard.
[13:39:51] <Tempt> So maybe I just 'clicked' with the product.
[13:39:58] <Gekkko> the hard part: it's all remote
[13:40:05] <Gekkko> it's in Canada, I'm not.
[13:40:06] <Gekkko> :P
[13:40:29] <Tempt> Well, if you don't have remote console, you're absolutely and utterly fucked.
[13:40:37] <Tempt> Because as soon as it breaks, you'll be wanting to boot -sx
[13:41:00] <Gekkko> if it breaks I'll just go meh
[13:41:01] <Gekkko> lol
[13:41:02] <Tempt> I ran an informal cluster tutorial session last year in Melbourne, I might do another one this year.
[13:41:09] <Gekkko> I don't live in Melbourne
[13:41:13] <Gekkko> I lose :P
[13:41:26] <Gekkko> I can't even remember the advantages of a cluster
[13:41:33] <Gekkko> shared CPU is all I can remember >_>
[13:41:40] <Tempt> err.. High Availability?
[13:41:43] <Tempt> Removal of SPOFs?
[13:41:44] <flyingparchment> i think you're thinking about the other kind of cluster
[13:41:52] <flyingparchment> sun cluster is about failover and stuff
[13:42:04] <Tempt> SunCluster is a high availability cluster, not a HPC cluster.
[13:42:11] <Gekkko> explain.
[13:42:31] <flyingparchment> Gekkko: you have two machines in a cluster.  one runs a database.  it breaks.  the other one transparently takes over, and your database keeps working.
[13:42:36] <flyingparchment> Gekkko: that's what sun cluster does
[13:42:43] <Gekkko> ahh okay :-)
[13:42:53] <Tempt> Gekkko: You're in Sydney?
[13:42:54] <Gekkko> like a RAID system.
[13:42:59] <Gekkko> Tempt: yes.
[13:43:25] <Tempt> Gekkko: Convince someone to run a cluster tutorial at SOSUG
[13:43:34] <Tempt> Gekkko: Or at least give a preso about it.
[13:43:36] <Gekkko> I don't think I can go to a seminar really, I'm a tad young >_>
[13:44:04] <Tempt> Huh?
[13:44:07] <Tempt> What, you're like 12 or something?
[13:44:15] <Gekkko> not _that_ young >_>
[13:44:16] <flyingparchment> you must be this tall to enter solaris user group ===>
[13:44:31] <Tempt> I had my first fulltime sysadmin job at 19.
[13:44:38] <Gekkko> I'm only 15.
[13:44:59] <Tempt> Well, there's nothing stopping you going to SOSUG meetings.
[13:45:01] <flyingparchment> sosug isn't exactly a seminar anyway.  it's just an informal gathering of people
[13:45:19] <Tempt> I understand they haven't yet provided beer, hookers and blackjack at SOSUG, so you're not in legal trouble.
[13:45:28] <flyingparchment> no beer?  :(
[13:45:43] <Gekkko> Tempt: lol
[13:45:56] <Gekkko> they're situated actually "in" Sydney though aren't they
[13:46:06] <Tempt> Whereas the closest thing Melbourne has to SOSUG is a few people swilling beer on friday night bitching about their jobs and talking Solaris
[13:46:14] <Tempt> Gekkko: Think so.
[13:46:31] <Gekkko> Bit far, I'm about hour and a half west.
[13:46:34] <Gekkko> :P
[13:46:42] <Gekkko> Doesn't sound like rocket science.
[13:46:43] <Tempt> Get the train.
[13:46:44] <Tempt> FFS.
[13:46:47] <Gekkko> lol
[13:47:04] <Gekkko> Tempt: you haven't heard about Sydney trains obviously
[13:47:11] <Gekkko> their rooves blow off on the bridge ffs.
[13:47:12] <Gekkko> lol
[13:47:35] <Tempt> Oh, fuck off. Shittyrail might not be particular fantastic but it isn't that bad.
[13:47:35] <mlh> that's /air-conditioning/
[13:47:50] <Tempt> I used to live in Newcastle, mate.
[13:47:57] <Gekkko> lol
[13:48:03] <Gekkko> Twice in a week.
[13:48:08] <Gekkko> it's getting much much worse >_>
[13:48:48] <Gekkko> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asus_Eee - I wonder how well Solaris would run on that :P
[13:49:14] <Tempt> Gekkko: So, if I were you, I'd get along to the next meeting. I wish there'd been a UNIX group for me to go to when I was 15.
[13:49:28] <Gekkko> why Tempt?
[13:49:30] <Tempt> Gekkko: Make a good impression now and someone might have a job for you in a couple of years.
[13:49:39] <Gekkko> oh :)
[13:49:52] <Tempt> Get to know people in the industry, start building a reputation as soon as possible.
[13:50:23] <Tempt> And it's worth it just to interact face-to-face.
[13:50:39] <Tempt> IRC isn't life.
[13:50:46] <Gekkko> I know that >_>
[13:51:02] <Teknomancer> it isn't???
[13:51:20] <Tempt> Besides, if you're pleasant company, somebody might buy you a beer at the pub afterwards so you can start your underage drinking career
[13:51:35] <Gekkko> >_>
[13:51:36] <Gekkko> lol
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[13:52:01] <Teknomancer> Fostahs, austrahlian for beeyah!
[13:52:24] <Teknomancer> that ad doesn't come anymore
[13:52:34] <Teknomancer> hm, wait all alchoholic ads are banned
[13:52:35] * Tempt slaps Teknomancer so hard his eyeballs pop out.
[13:52:46] <Teknomancer> lol
[13:53:53] <Gekkko> Well I have to go for a while, talk soon ;) cya
[13:53:58] <WickedWicky> be good
[13:54:09] <Teknomancer> be good means don't drink beer
[13:54:18] <flyingparchment> no, that's be boring.
[13:54:23] <Teknomancer> hehe
[13:54:24] <flyingparchment> be good means drink beer and don't get caught
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[13:54:34] <WickedWicky> xactly
[13:55:03] <Teknomancer> my friends used to fill pepsi bottle with rum
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[13:57:12] <Tempt> Thinking about it, I might do another Cluster session this year. I know a few people who want in, so it might be worth it.
[13:57:31] <Tempt> Coupla E250s and an old FCAL JBOD.
[13:58:41] <Doc> i've done the syd/ncle train more times than i could sanely count
[13:59:56] <Doc> only killed one person in the process too, so that's not a bad rate
[14:00:07] <Tempt> Doc: Man, you have great patience.
[14:00:18] <Tempt> I remember it taking 8 hours to get from Newc to Syd once.
[14:00:48] <Doc> this particular trip probably took 5, by the time we'd spoken to the police and all
[14:00:59] <Tempt> heh.
[14:01:05] <Tempt> Justifiably homocide?
[14:01:10] <Tempt> s/y/e/
[14:01:17] <WickedWicky> what will you cover during the session? installation / creation of service groups and all?
[14:01:18] <Doc> train from central to fassifern.  bus from fassifern, coming up the hill at adamstown
[14:01:47] <WickedWicky> try taking a bus from Curitiba to Rio de janeiro :s
[14:01:50] <Doc> some drunk moron tries to get on the bus (not at the station - just a public bus stop and we weren't a public bus) and ends up going under the back wheels
[14:02:01] <WickedWicky> ouch
[14:02:19] <Tempt> I remember getting stuck for two hours at some bumfuck station on the way to Sydney and the only redeeming feature was the fact that there was a bottle shop across the road
[14:02:43] <Doc> i once fed the chips to the entire carriage
[14:02:52] <Tempt> Cityrail guys decided it wasn't worth the brawls to stop people drinking and smoking on the carriage.
[14:03:07] <Tempt> By the time we got to sydney the entire train was drunk as all fuck.
[14:03:24] <Doc> they had been giving away packets of chips at the ent cent after a basketball game.  took about 2 minutes before ppl just started grabbing full boxes and walking off
[14:03:39] <Doc> one box under each arm = about 100 packets of chips :)
[14:03:59] <Tempt> anyway, my food just hit the table, so see you all a little later.
[14:04:20] <WickedWicky> eat well!
[14:05:03] <flyingparchment> australian trains sound much more fun than ours
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[14:13:25] <Gekkko[PDA]> back
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[14:31:36] <Gekkko[PDA]> when SXCE goes 70, do I have to download the iso?
[14:31:51] <Gekkko[PDA]> or can I transparently upgrade?
[14:32:31] <quasi> depends on where you're upgrading from
[14:32:38] <quasi> "transparently"
[14:32:53] <Gekkko[PDA]> 69
[14:33:12] <quasi> then you should be fine to bfu to 70
[14:33:17] <Gekkko[PDA]> kk
[14:33:29] <Gekkko[PDA]> good to know
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[14:37:20] <ACT> Hey people
[14:37:28] *** ACT is now known as edwardocallaghan
[14:37:36] <Tempt> Heya.
[14:37:54] <edwardocallaghan> Hows it going Tempt ?
[14:39:55] <edwardocallaghan> Tempt:What CMS portal would you recommend ?
[14:41:41] <MousePad> lenya, drupal, joomla, daisy, alfresco, opencms, ...
[14:42:58] <asyd> liferay
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[14:45:21] <Gekkko[PDA]> I can't wait to get my Solaris DVDs
[14:45:41] <Gekkko[PDA]> 370GB is not enough >.>
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[14:46:02] <Cyrille> the deleted scenes are particularly interesting, but the director's commentary is a bit boring towards the end.
[14:48:45] <quasi> my preferred CMS is vi
[14:48:59] <edwardocallaghan> Is liferay easy to setup on my zone ?
[14:49:19] <edwardocallaghan> quasi:lol
[14:50:05] <quasi> edwardocallaghan: works for me
[14:50:25] <asyd> edwardocallaghan: 4.3.3 is bundle with glassifhs
[14:50:57] <edwardocallaghan> I only know bits of PHP
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[14:51:10] <edwardocallaghan> looks nice though
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[14:59:11] <edwardocallaghan> yea I think http://www.alfresco.com/ is the go
[14:59:13] <edwardocallaghan> Thanks
[15:00:38] <MousePad> Spoilt for choice with OSS CMSes...but they're all flawed
[15:01:09] <Gekkko[PDA]> how so?
[15:01:30] <jmcp> apart from "because all software sucks"
[15:01:56] <Tempt> Joomla isn't too bad if you're willing to put the effort in.
[15:03:29] <edwardocallaghan> Hey I may as well do Joomla, I don't want to wast to much time with this
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[15:08:12] <quasi> another easy "cms" is nanoblogger - all it takes is vi and a bit of bash
[15:08:33] <quasi> performs quite well also ;)
[15:09:35] <edwardocallaghan> narrr I need some power for the things that are going to happen on it
[15:10:25] <Gekkko[PDA]> i like Drupal.
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[15:20:08] <edwardocallaghan> OK, just need a hand
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[15:20:24] <edwardocallaghan> I got a CoolStack setup
[15:20:56] <edwardocallaghan> but when I tell it too look for at its htdocs
[15:21:05] <edwardocallaghan> it comes up with the root folder !
[15:21:22] <edwardocallaghan> and does not open .php extenstions ?
[15:21:28] <quasi> DocumentRoot
[15:21:37] <edwardocallaghan> yea
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[15:21:43] <edwardocallaghan> its path is ok
[15:22:00] <edwardocallaghan> i mean it does not open index.php by default
[15:22:12] <edwardocallaghan> should it not as its a CoolStack ?
[15:22:26] <Plazma_Work> this is odd, i have 2 interfaces in different subnets, but when both are activated, i can confirm network connectivyt but SSH seems to die,
[15:25:17] <edwardocallaghan> Should I add index.php to DictoryIndex ?
[15:25:50] <vmlemon> Plazma_Work: I haven't used Solaris in a while, but can't you bridge them?
[15:25:51] <edwardocallaghan> %s/Directory I mean
[15:26:09] <vmlemon> Or isn't that what you're after?
[15:26:57] <Plazma_Work> vmlemon, if their on different subnets, why would i want to bridge them.. unless im not thinking clearly
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[15:29:11] <vmlemon> Sounds more like a routing problem, depending on what side the SSH server is on
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[15:32:17] <sickness> all sleeping...
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[15:32:31] <edwardocallaghan> zlib Compression Support, how do I get that ?
[15:35:16] <edwardocallaghan> how do I setup zlib in php.ini ?
[15:36:10] <jmcp> edwardocallaghan: perhaps asking a #php channel might be more productive, if google and php.org (or whatever it is) don't give you a ready answer
[15:37:09] <Tempt> easier to ask here. google is very difficult.
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[15:38:07] <boyd> Google has less sarcasm though.
[15:38:20] * jmcp rolls eyes @ bios boot spec doco
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[15:38:57] <Tempt> boyd: Hey there. How's life treating you this week?
[15:38:59] <edwardocallaghan> lol
[15:39:03] <edwardocallaghan> I am looking
[15:39:09] <edwardocallaghan> Hey boyd
[15:39:12] <boyd> Tempt: Not bad..
[15:39:15] <boyd> Hey edwardocallaghan
[15:39:27] <boyd> Off to India next week...
[15:39:36] <Tempt> How awful for you.
[15:39:37] <jmcp> boyd: more dtrace?
[15:39:43] <boyd> Yep, DTrace
[15:40:01] <boyd> Surely there must be somebody over there who knows it..
[15:40:10] <boyd> Tempt: You're welcome to go in my stead
[15:40:17] <Tempt> No thanks.
[15:40:21] <Tempt> Full of Indians.
[15:40:35] <boyd> So I've noticed... I should take my covered wagon.
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[15:41:07] <Tempt> You can have a beer tomorrow at Spleen to wash the thought away though.
[15:41:50] <boyd> I'd love to, but I actually have to fly to Brisbane for the weekend to go to a 40th bday party, then leave from there to Mumbai. Fly out tomorrow evening
[15:42:03] <boyd> I'll wave at jmcp as I pass brisbane :)
[15:42:08] <jmcp> :-)
[15:42:10] <Tempt> Sounds awful!
[15:42:25] <WickedWicky> 40
[15:42:26] <WickedWicky> geez
[15:42:36] * WickedWicky can only hope to make it till 40
[15:42:36] <boyd> heh
[15:42:45] <WickedWicky> 12 years to go
[15:42:52] <edwardocallaghan> i put extension="zlib.so" into php.ini ; all fixed up :D
[15:43:03] <jmcp> WickedWicky: don't forget to wear an onion on your belt when you get there
[15:43:09] <jmcp> edwardocallaghan: good stuff
[15:43:18] <boyd> It's the fashion at the time...
[15:43:23] <WickedWicky> is it now?
[15:43:46] <timeless> jmcp: ping
[15:43:52] <jmcp> timeless: ack
[15:43:52] <timeless> can you look at a file for me?
[15:43:55] <jmcp> sure
[15:44:05] <timeless> /usr/share/man/man3ucb/flock.3ucb
[15:44:15] <timeless> mine has:
[15:44:16] <timeless> \fBint\fR \fBflock\fR(\fB\fR \fIfd\fR, \fB\fR \fIoperation\fRint \fIfd\fR, \fIoperation\fR;
[15:44:22] <timeless> does yours?
[15:44:33] <flyingparchment> has anyone used "lsiutil" to replace a disk in an mpt array before?  i'm wondering what i need to do so that a noc monkey and just yank the disk and put a new one in
[15:44:41] <jmcp> timeless: it sure does
[15:44:50] <timeless> i presume if you do man flock it looks "wrong"
[15:44:54] <jmcp> yes
[15:44:59] <timeless> yum
[15:45:31] * timeless tries to remember the password for bugs.opensolaris
[15:46:05] <boyd> Mine is wrong, it doesn't say "Use lockf" :)
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[15:46:41] <edwardocallaghan> crap
[15:46:41] <timeless> i'm half trying to make sbox2  work
[15:46:47] <timeless> which means reading syscall docs
[15:47:02] <timeless> or figuring out how to safely call libc from an ldpreload
[15:47:02] <edwardocallaghan> ERORR while trying to start MySQL :P
[15:47:39] <edwardocallaghan> btw, does the ldpreload explodit still exist in xfree86 thing ?
[15:48:05] <jmcp> because you're using xfree86 when the rest of the world has migrated to Xorg
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[15:48:24] <flyingparchment> why are you using xfree86?
[15:48:34] <timeless> jmcp: i got 174 hits for flock in b.o.o
[15:48:42] <timeless> what should i search for? flock man?
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[15:49:17] <jmcp> timeless: flock doc manpage, perhaps
[15:50:02] <timeless> http://bugs.opensolaris.org/view_bug.do?bug_id=6542939
[15:50:09] <timeless> seems to be the same problem
[15:50:28] <wraith> Tell me plz, I intalled kqemu and now this module is automatically booted each time.I searched /kernel and /platform and didn't find kqemu.How do I know which script loads this module at startup?
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[15:50:42] <flyingparchment> i wonder how much it would cost to ship 2 1U servers, a 3U server and a 3U disk array from .nl to .us
[15:50:45] <flyingparchment> anyone have a clue? :)
[15:50:53] <WickedWicky> geen idee
[15:51:20] <boyd> Hmm.. let my check my "shipping random things from random places to other random places pocket guide"...
[15:51:35] <jmcp> timeless: yup, looks very similar
[15:52:04] <boyd> timeless: looks the same to me
[15:52:50] <jmcp> wraith: it's in /usr/kernel/drv, and the kernel loads it on demand, and unloads it after a period of non-use
[15:53:09] <WickedWicky> flyingparchment: already looked at the TPG site?
[15:53:16] <flyingparchment> WickedWicky: what's that?
[15:53:21] <WickedWicky> ..
[15:53:28] <wraith> thanks,didn't know about this place for modules
[15:53:32] <WickedWicky> you?e not in holland?
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[15:53:54] <WickedWicky> TPG is the dutch postal services
[15:53:56] <flyingparchment> WickedWicky: i'm in the UK.  :)
[15:54:09] <WickedWicky> oh, okay.
[15:54:14] <WickedWicky> I can check it out for you if you want
[15:54:17] * WickedWicky is in the netherlands
[15:54:23] <WickedWicky> it probably goes per KG
[15:54:33] <Teknomancer> boyd:  going to Mumbai and where else?
[15:54:51] <boyd> Mumbai then back again. 3 days stay.
[15:55:00] <flyingparchment> unfortunately i have no idea what this stuff weighs.  (it's a V40z, a V20z, a Dell PE1950, and two Infortrend 12-disk arrays)
[15:55:13] <Teknomancer> hmm ok. sounds hectic
[15:55:13] <jmcp> flyingparchment: it'll weigh *heaps*
[15:55:16] <timeless> jmcp: should i offer to work on this bug? :)
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[15:55:22] <flyingparchment> jmcp: i figured :(
[15:55:25] <jmcp> timeless: might as well
[15:55:27] <boyd> Teknomancer: Yeah..
[15:55:30] <jmcp> flyingparchment: the disk arrays will weigh most
[15:55:34] <boyd> In that note, I'm off to bed. Night all
[15:55:42] <Teknomancer> nite boyd
[15:55:43] <WickedWicky> flyingparchment: I will go by the post office tonight after work and will ask about it
[15:55:48] <quasi> flyingparchment: you can look up the V40z and V20z on suns site
[15:55:50] <Tempt> boyd: Have fun in India
[15:55:54] <boyd> Thanks
[15:56:15] <WickedWicky> but you might wanna check out the UPS side, they might say something about it
[15:56:37] <WickedWicky> Netherlands has UPS and DHL, I think DHL is cheaper
[15:56:49] <timeless> Report a Bug
[15:56:50] <timeless> The bug has been reported.
[15:56:53] <timeless> jum
[15:57:10] <quasi> WickedWicky: and isn't tpg ~= TNT?
[15:57:11] <jmcp> flyingparchment: all these units will be 1 rack unit deep. the v40z is 2u high, v20z is 1u high ... not sure about the dell but probably 1u high, and the infortrend arrays are probably 3u high
[15:57:11] <timeless> jmcp/boyd: so um... is flock actually defined anywhere
[15:57:17] <timeless> or are you supposed to prototype it?
[15:57:25] <WickedWicky> quasi: since short, yea
[15:57:30] <timeless> i tried adding the #include line and that didn't help
[15:57:50] <tsoome> timeless: man flock
[15:58:00] <jmcp> timeless: there's a version in /usr/include, and one in /usr/ucbinclude
[15:58:10] <timeless> tsoome: been there, filed a bug on that
[15:58:11] <flyingparchment> jmcp: ah, i thought the V40z was 3U, okay.  (i know dell is 1U, and the arrays are 3)
[15:58:51] * timeless doesn't seme to have ucbinclude
[15:58:58] <timeless> did i forget to install the dev headers?
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[15:59:11] <timeless> indeed, i did
[15:59:19] <flyingparchment> timeless: why do you use ucbinclude?  that's ancient stuff
[15:59:20] <timeless> my older snv has that did
[15:59:27] <timeless> flyingparchment: i don'
[15:59:32] <timeless> it's not even installed
[15:59:43] <timeless> jmcp merely mentioned it, so i looked, and didn't find it
[15:59:49] <tsoome> The compatibility
[15:59:50] <tsoome>      version of flock() has been implemented on top  of  fcntl(2)
[15:59:50] <tsoome>      locking
[15:59:53] <timeless> why does everyone blame me?
[16:00:13] <tsoome> so use fcntl() instead
[16:00:15] <jmcp> flyingparchment: v20z weighs 16kg with packaging (43mm, 430mm, 724mm hwd). v40z weighs 34kg, (133mm, 445mm, 756mm hwd)
[16:00:24] <jmcp> timeless: because it's easier :)
[16:01:13] <timeless> iirc solaris and LOCK_EX aren't the same as everyone else's anyway
[16:01:16] <tsoome> timeless: if you have bothered to read this flock manpage, you would have seent this fcntl() note, and have fixed your code already. thats the way how ppl do.
[16:01:29] <timeless> tsoome: on linux too?
[16:01:44] <tsoome> ?!
[16:01:55] <tsoome> since when this is linux channel?
[16:01:55] <timeless> i'm not writing code
[16:02:00] <tsoome> so?
[16:02:01] <timeless> i'm porting
[16:02:08] <tsoome> why are you asking then?
[16:02:18] <timeless> well, because the man page headers are busted
[16:02:25] <timeless> and when i tried to include the file it said at the top
[16:02:30] <timeless> i didn't get the prototype for the function
[16:02:32] <tsoome> well, thats even worse - you obviously have no idea what are you doing.
[16:02:52] <timeless> apparent bug: missing prototype for flock
[16:03:01] <tsoome> porting is not exactl about finding prototypes.
[16:03:10] <timeless> general hammer approach to fix: man flock, find headers, add includes
[16:03:51] <tsoome> well, if you dont have ucbincludes installed, its not a bug.
[16:04:25] <timeless> confused
[16:04:26] <tsoome> and ucb interface is not recommended one, so porting in this case means that tou should fix the code:P
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[16:04:45] <timeless> wait, i have a man page for a header i don't have?
[16:04:48] <timeless> oh, ok
[16:05:12] <WickedWicky> flyingparchment
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[16:06:24] <tsoome> timeless: read note section from flock man
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[16:14:54] * timeless considers trying to find the lx impl of flock
[16:16:44] <Ozux> hi, Any body have problem with opensolaris.org web site? I can't see site without using proxy!
[16:16:54] *** sle_ has joined #opensolaris
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[16:17:30] <timeless>   339  * Stolen verbatim from usr/src/ucblib/libucb/port/sys/flock.c
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[16:19:16] <edwardocallaghan> bye bye!
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[16:22:54] <quasi> Ozux: no
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[16:23:50] <Ozux> quasi: can I get your nameservers IPs?
[16:24:11] <flyingparchment> can i stripe over differently sized devices in QFS?  and it'll just stop striping once one is full?
[16:24:33] <oxygene> Ozux: with DNS from 194.163.168.140 it works here
[16:25:15] <quasi> Ozux: 10.0.0.1 ;)
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[16:32:11] <Ozux> quasi: Hah
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[16:32:21] <Ozux> oxygene: TNX
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[16:39:51] <noyb> man ndpd.conf  --  produces malformed man page.  I'm curious if anyone else sees that.
[16:40:39] <noyb> 3 or 4 pages down, everything is smooshed over to the right.  :-)
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[17:06:10] <Teknomancer> thanks guys for all the help :)
[17:06:14] <Teknomancer> cu tomorrow
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[17:22:13] <WickedWicky> why is my server so busy
[17:22:13] <WickedWicky> :s
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[17:23:04] <PerterB> WickedWicky: because we pwned it to run seti@home
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[17:23:13] <WickedWicky> that would be allright
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[17:23:50] <WickedWicky> looks like one of my disks in the zfspool is broken
[17:24:42] <catena> hello, nothin is clear in gnome pdf viewer
[17:24:50] <PerterB> how do I force dtrace fbt to print return values as signed? if I have printf( "%d", arg1 ) and the function returns -1, I get something like 4294967295
[17:24:52] <catena> is this normal
[17:25:12] <WickedWicky> catena: no, I had the same problem in nv64
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[17:26:05] <catena> WickedWicky, so whats the brilliant idea?
[17:26:23] <catena> WickedWicky, to view PDFs
[17:26:27] <WickedWicky> upgrade to nv69
[17:26:28] <WickedWicky> :P
[17:26:43] <WickedWicky> seriously, I cant reproduce the symptons in later versions
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[17:27:09] <WickedWicky> you might try to get a newer package of the pdf viewer or try to compile it yourself
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[17:27:52] <Pietro_S> vermillion build should contain newer evince (but I never had this problem)
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[17:28:57] <WickedWicky> wonderfull, my box paniced again
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[17:33:21] <WickedWicky> okies
[17:33:23] <WickedWicky> going home
[17:33:28] <WickedWicky> see ya all from the train
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[17:46:35] <Plazma_Work> wow, b59 is sexy
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[17:48:22] <WickedWicky> yellow
[17:48:29] <Plazma_Work> blue
[17:48:30] <WickedWicky> I think I found why my solaris box panics all the time
[17:48:39] <WickedWicky> but at the same time I think it shouldnt happen
[17:48:49] <WickedWicky> since its why I use ZFS mirror
[17:49:07] <WickedWicky>         mirror    DEGRADED     0     0     0
[17:49:07] <WickedWicky>             c1d0    ONLINE       0     0     0
[17:49:07] <WickedWicky>             c2d0    DEGRADED     0     0     0  too many errors
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[17:49:19] <WickedWicky> my box panics as soon as c2d0 acts like a cheap girl
[17:50:03] <timeless> how expensive was she?
[17:50:06] <WickedWicky> then it comes up, and tells me c2d0 is either not available or in some kind of error state
[17:50:17] <WickedWicky> 60 bucks
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[17:51:38] <WickedWicky> hello sommerfeld
[17:52:14] <IvanR_> WickedWicky: Do you get a panic message & core dump?
[17:52:25] <WickedWicky> yes
[17:52:39] <Atomdrache> I've got an odd SunOS 4.1.4 problem.  I got this old SPARCstation IPX with a dead NVRAM battery, and I replaced it and restored the NVRAM.  Well, it won't boot right because it claims that it found an inconsistency in /dev/rsd1a, mounted as /home.  I get a root shell and the error message tells me to fsck the volumes.  I can't fsck /dev/rsd1a--it says it can't open it.  Well, as far as I can tell this device doesn't exist, and so I
[17:52:46] <Atomdrache> (did that get cut off?)
[17:53:16] <sommerfeld> at "and so I"\
[17:53:24] <Atomdrache> so I thought I'd try to unmount it.  But I can't  do anything like unmount or edit fstab, because it tells me "read-only file system."  What's going on here?
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[17:53:50] <Atomdrache> (I've never dealt with this kind of problem before, so I may be missing something obvious.)
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[17:53:51] <sommerfeld> so, i have zero experience with SunOS that old, but the usual approach is to remount the root writably.
[17:53:58] <Atomdrache> How do I do that?
[17:54:05] <WickedWicky> mount -o remount,rw /
[17:54:45] <WickedWicky> IvanR_:
[17:54:45] <WickedWicky> > ::status
[17:54:45] <WickedWicky> debugging crash dump vmcore.4 (32-bit) from lilith
[17:54:45] <WickedWicky> operating system: 5.11 snv69 (i86pc)
[17:54:45] <WickedWicky> panic message: kernel heap corruption detected
[17:54:46] <WickedWicky> dump content: kernel pages only
[17:54:53] <Atomdrache> All right, I'll see if it lets me do that.  Before I relocate this machine's monitor to the IPX, does the IPX's built-in framebuffer need a fixed-frequency monitor?
[17:55:08] <Atomdrache> I've only got one of those, and it's currently shared between this machine and the IPX.
[17:55:42] <WickedWicky> what's the command to print the panic again in mdb? print ?<buf or something?
[17:57:03] <stevel> $<msgbuf
[17:57:43] <IvanR_> WickedWicky: Use pastebin.com for the output
[17:59:55] <WickedWicky> http://rafb.net/p/UMChWG20.html
[18:00:01] <WickedWicky> I was at it
[18:00:02] <WickedWicky> :)
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[18:00:47] <WickedWicky> redzone: write paste at end of buffer
[18:00:47] <WickedWicky> no idea what that means
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[18:01:09] <WickedWicky> write past, even
[18:01:30] <Atomdrache> Thanks, now it'll let me edit fstab.
[18:01:47] <WickedWicky> Atomdrache: cool :D
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[18:02:10] <Atomdrache> It feels rather odd messing around with an OS this old on a machine so old it can't address more than 64MB of memory :D
[18:02:23] <WickedWicky> gotta learn the tricks on an old bike
[18:02:27] <Atomdrache> But...it's so small and cute!
[18:02:28] <sommerfeld> WickedWicky: some piece of code allocated a chunk of memory N bytes long and then wrote past the end of the buffer
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[18:02:55] <WickedWicky> like, a buffer overflow?
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[18:03:38] <WickedWicky> can it be it tried to write things to disk c2d0 while it became unavailable?
[18:04:15] <WickedWicky> cause it seems like an odd coincidence the machine always panics with this message when c2d0 acts up
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[18:05:43] <PerterB> another dtrace winner... I think I now know why zfs on firewire drives generates shedloads of "transport rejected fatal" errors
[18:05:53] <WickedWicky> what I notice just before the panic is the CPU jumping to 100% user usage, then my SSH connection drops, 5 mins later it's back, rebooted
[18:09:05] <WickedWicky> that is, system usage
[18:09:12] <IvanR_> What's the system & hardware specs?
[18:09:27] <WickedWicky> Athlon 2400XP+ , 3GB memory
[18:09:46] <WickedWicky> bunchof disks in zfs
[18:10:03] <WickedWicky>        NAME        STATE     READ WRITE CKSUM
[18:10:03] <WickedWicky>         zpool_lilith  ONLINE       0     0     0
[18:10:03] <WickedWicky>           c4d0s4    ONLINE       0     0     0
[18:10:03] <WickedWicky>           c0d0      ONLINE       0     0     0
[18:10:06] <WickedWicky>          mirror    ONLINE       0     0     0
[18:10:07] <WickedWicky>             c1d0    ONLINE       0     0     0
[18:10:07] <WickedWicky>             c2d0    ONLINE       0     0     0
[18:10:13] <WickedWicky>           c6d0      ONLINE       0     0     0
[18:10:13] <WickedWicky>           c6d1      ONLINE       0     0     0
[18:10:20] <WickedWicky>           c9d0      ONLINE       0     0     0
[18:10:35] <WickedWicky> c1d0 and c2d0 are SATA
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[18:10:52] <WickedWicky> so is c0d0
[18:10:54] <WickedWicky> the rest is PATA
[18:11:17] <WickedWicky> VIA K700 motherboard (Gigabyte 7VAXP)
[18:12:11] <sommerfeld> that many unreplicated vdevs is asking for trouble
[18:13:18] <WickedWicky> I would make them all mirrors at this very second if I didnt have to buy new ATA controllers since what I have laying around is Promise
[18:13:33] <WickedWicky> http://rafb.net/p/RR8ueb99.html
[18:13:36] <WickedWicky> that's my current pciscan output
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[18:14:25] <WickedWicky> hence that the problem I have right now is with one of the mirrored disks
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[18:19:03] <ahhyes> can anyone tell me why the glxgears/glxinfo commands work fine when logged in as root, but as another user, when they are run, they cause the X server to quit altogether?
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[18:31:27] <yjsong> Hi. Updated Starter Kit is in planning. One of the proposed documents to be added to the newer Starter Kit is the Development Process document: http://opensolaris.org/os/community/on/os_dev_process/. Does anyone know whether this contains up to date information?
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[18:33:12] <myrkraverk> does netbeans (with sun studio 12) install into /opt/netbeans?
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[18:36:32] <Pietro_S> myrkraverk: /opt/netbeans-5.5.1 , but netbeans 6 is better ;-)
[18:36:47] <Pietro_S> it mainly has nice plugin for mercurial
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[18:40:45] <chris_d> Good morning all. I just installed Nevada build 69 and I'm have problems with link aggregation.
[18:40:57] <chris_d> The ports on this system were aggregated before I did the rebuild.
[18:41:16] <chris_d> I followed the same procedure to aggregate again, but the link aggregation does not persist across reboots.
[18:43:32] <alanc> yjsong: there are some things out of date in it - but not much
[18:44:07] <alanc> though Indiana may change assertions in it such as "The OpenSolaris project does not provide an end-user product or complete distribution but rather an open source code base"
[18:44:22] <yjsong> alanc: Great, that's what I wanted to know. We're planning to translate the document.
[18:44:43] <yjsong> alanc: I see.
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[18:47:21] <yjsong> alanc: Another question. We're debating whether to update the Starter Kit with the b66 info or with b70 (with new installer). Do you have any opinions about either option?
[18:47:44] <alanc> no
[18:48:01] <alanc> haven't actually tried the new installer yet, since 70 images are not yet ready
[18:48:12] <yjsong> OK.
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[18:56:53] <stevel> yjsong: don't update it with the b66 info
[18:57:05] <sommerfeld> i really hope i'm making more friends than enemies by taking a hard line on the boot archive issue
[18:57:15] <stevel> i don't anticipate spinning another b66 starter kit
[18:57:21] <stevel> i'd rather wait for 70
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[18:58:17] <yjsong> Stevel: Okay... In the meeting yesterday, completing the update for TechDays in Italy was discussed (end September).
[18:58:26] * WickedWicky gives sommerfeld a teddy bear. THis will be your friend, unconditionaly!
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[18:58:38] <stevel> does teresa have enough existing b66 starter kits for the september tech days?
[18:59:13] <yjsong> stevel: Sept TechDays are in Italy, and we never translated SK to Italian before.
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[19:00:03] <stevel> yjsong: sorry, haven't read all the minutes yet - are you planning to translate it in time for Tech Days?  or will we just ship the English?
[19:01:04] <yjsong> stevel: I'm supposed to get estimates on translation. If we translate Italian, we barely have 3 weeks or so.
[19:01:22] * WickedWicky might just take a short holiday to milan in september
[19:01:36] <WickedWicky> or Rome
[19:02:26] <yjsong> stevel: If we update SK with b70 info, we may just have to hand out the English version in Italy.
[19:03:02] <stevel> yjsong: it wouldn't be that tragic to hand out the English version.
[19:03:19] <stevel> i suppose it depends how much it takes to translate if some of it will be thrown away with the new b70 installer
[19:03:49] <oxygene> sommerfeld: the "oops, the archive isn't good enough, I won't boot" issue?
[19:04:35] <sommerfeld> oxygene: yes.  more correctly "oops, the archive in the root filesystem i just booted from should have been rebuilt before you booted"
[19:04:46] <yjsong> stevel: OK, let me run that by Teresa. There were quite some more content proposed to be added to the updated SK.
[19:05:16] <WickedWicky> sommerfeld: I think I got that yesterday, booted in failsafe, rebooted back, and it all worked
[19:05:22] <WickedWicky> fuck knows what was going on though
[19:05:32] <sommerfeld> stevel: i'm not sure I see a compelling need to translate details of the development process -- since successfully getting changes back in requires significant amounts of interaction in English
[19:05:49] <sommerfeld> WickedWicky: right.  the fact that it asks questions you don't know how to answer is IMHO a bug
[19:05:54] <yjsong> stevel: Such as Basic and Advanced System Admin Guides, and other SXCE documentation, to make the SK more complete.
[19:06:10] <stevel> sommerfeld: i don't think we were talking about translating that. we're talking about translating the install documentation
[19:06:53] <yjsong> stevel & sommerfeld: There's a few "Build" documents proposed to be added, one of which is the ON Dev Process:
[19:07:03] <yjsong>  http://opensolaris.org/os/community/on/os_dev_process/
[19:07:05] <stevel> yjsong: but we're not going to translate those i presume
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[19:07:54] <adu> hi
[19:08:03] <yjsong> stevel: Hmm, the decision yesterday was to translate it. As I was looking into more details of each doc to be added (hence to be translated), I had several questions.
[19:08:17] <adu> how do I mount a drive in solaris?
[19:09:13] <adu> I have an ext3-formatted external usb harddrive, and it would automount in linux, but I switched to solaris, and its not automounting...
[19:09:20] <stevel> yjsong: see sommerfeld's point: i'm not sure I see a compelling need to translate details of the development process -- since successfully getting changes back in requires significant amounts of interaction in English
[19:09:27] <oxygene> adu: solaris doesn't have ext3
[19:09:30] <stevel> i think that's valid
[19:09:31] <adu> o
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[19:09:48] <myrkraverk> you need the ext3 mount tools
[19:09:51] <yjsong> stevel: I'd really like some user/developer opinions on what to add on the SK. The thing is, I feel that it was missing. Michelle suggested a few docs, and few commented on it.
[19:09:52] <myrkraverk> from nexenta, iirc
[19:10:12] <adu> but I saw ext3 code in the solaris source tree...
[19:10:13] <stevel> sorry i was at the PSARC meeting, couldn't make it to the starter kit meeting
[19:10:43] <adu> myrkraverk: where do i get them?
[19:11:02] <myrkraverk> google, I don't recall anymore
[19:11:03] <yjsong> http://www.opensolaris.org/jive/thread.jspa?threadID=27623. See the very first posting where there are 4 docs/articles suggested.
[19:11:10] <adu> okk
[19:11:23] <myrkraverk> one of the tool name is prtpart
[19:11:48] <stevel> adu: http://blogs.sun.com/pradhap/date/20070716
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[19:14:35] <BLERGH> adu: you need the FSWfsmisc package
[19:14:45] <BLERGH> if that wasnt pointed out during my disconnection allready
[19:15:01] <axisys> what is S on a dir group bit ?
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[19:15:14] <axisys> i know `s' it setbit
[19:15:19] <axisys> but what is `S'?
[19:16:01] <axisys> never seen the `S' in group bit
[19:16:49] <BLERGH> s for group is setgid, no?
[19:17:09] <BLERGH> setuid/setgid
[19:17:39] <sommerfeld> in ls -l output, "S" means s but not x
[19:18:29] <sommerfeld> from chmod(2): "If a directory has the set group ID bit set,  a  given  file
[19:18:29] <sommerfeld>      created  within  that directory will have  the same group ID
[19:18:29] <sommerfeld>      as the directory.  Otherwise, the newly created file's group
[19:18:29] <sommerfeld>      ID  will  be  set  to the effective group ID of the creating
[19:18:29] <sommerfeld>      process.
[19:18:29] <sommerfeld> "
[19:18:36] <BLERGH> what's the point of that?
[19:18:47] <BLERGH> ah, yes, file creation
[19:19:19] <BLERGH> I was wondering what the point of reading a file with setgid would do
[19:19:27] <BLERGH> be
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[19:20:15] <BLERGH> I am gonna crash soon, laptop battery empty
[19:21:12] <sommerfeld> oh, and S without X on file enables mandatory file/record locking
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[19:22:43] <axisys> so s = S + x ?
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[19:26:39] <chris_d> Anybody know anything about link aggregation?
[19:26:44] <axisys> got it
[19:26:47] <axisys> 020#0
[19:26:56] <axisys> Set group ID on execution if # is 7,  5,
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[19:27:05] <axisys> 3,  or  1.  Enable mandatory file/record
[19:27:16] <axisys> locking if # is 6, 4, 2, or 0.
[19:29:16] <switch_> chris_d: http://blogs.sun.com/droux/date/20060214
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[19:30:10] <switch_> chris_d: http://blogs.sun.com/droux/entry/link_aggregation_vs_ip_multipathing
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[19:30:44] <switch_> chris_d: maybe you already have that, but just thought i would send those before i crash
[19:30:45] <adu> this pisses me off, ext2/3/4 should be as ubiquitous as fat32
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[19:30:56] <chris_d> switch_, thanks.
[19:31:19] <chris_d> switch_, The issue is that aggregations are no longer persistent across reboots.
[19:31:28] <chris_d> switch_, I have to recreate them every time I boot.
[19:32:05] <switch_> hurm
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[19:35:45] <oxygene> adu: fat32 has a quite open spec.. where's that for ext[234]?
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[19:37:52] <switch_> chris_d: im not sure sure on you details, and i dont want to assume anything, but were they persistant before and they stopped working, or have they never been persistant.
[19:39:34] <chris_d> They were persistent before with Solaris 10 11/06. This morning, I installed Nevada build 69.
[19:40:07] <chris_d> I had to redo the aggregation. I used the same method as on the old build.
[19:40:13] <chris_d> Now they are not persistent.
[19:40:14] <adu> o so its a spec thats needed...
[19:40:29] <switch_> hurm
[19:42:09] <adu> http://e2fsprogs.sourceforge.net/ext2intro.html
[19:42:15] <axisys> what is good way to explain the diff between real uid and effective uid?
[19:43:30] <oxygene> adu: not needed, but it helps a lot
[19:44:06] <oxygene> axisys: the real uid is that you signed on with - the effective uid is the one that's used for access control and might be something else (eg. with setuid applications)
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[19:46:08] <sommerfeld> chris_d: someone who works on link aggregation suggests asking on networking-discuss at opensolaris dot org
[19:46:58] <switch_> chris_d: i need to crash, but maybe someone can pick this up and help you with this.  Nevada build 69... ok.
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[19:48:03] <yjsong> stevel & sommerfeld: Any opinions about including (translating) Rich Teer's articles (Building OpenSolaris)?
[19:48:23] <yjsong> stevel & sommerfeld: I mean in the newer Starter Kit.
[19:48:44] <stevel> i think they should be included.  translated might be nice - but i wouldn't make it as high a priority
[19:49:00] <stevel> actually, i guess building isn't the same as getting stuff putback - so yeah, maybe translating it would be good
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[19:50:40] <yjsong> stevel: And do you know the content of OpenSolaris Developer's Reference Guide? This is rather a large book. It's also proposed to be added to the SK, in the new tab that will be created, called Build.
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[19:51:28] <axisys> oxygene: thnx
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[19:52:38] <stevel> i'm familiar with some of the content
[19:52:46] <stevel> i don't know that that is worth the effort to translate
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[19:55:00] <yjsong> stevel: The idea was to make Build information the theme of the updated SK. Do you have any suggestion on which materials to include/translate?
[19:55:29] <stevel> not off the top of my head
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[19:56:20] <sommerfeld> chris_d: Is it possible that you're running the nwam instance of network/physical?  only the default (non-nwam) configures aggregations..
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[19:58:34] <chris_d> sommerfeld, how can I tell?
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[19:58:51] <chris_d> sommerfeld, and aggregations were working previously.
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[20:00:08] <yjsong> stevel: OK, thank you.
[20:00:19] <CIA-26> jm22469: 6527622 Attempt to store boot command variable during a reboot can time out, 6501039 rebooting multiple guests continuously causes a reboot thread to hang
[20:03:31] <sommerfeld> chris_d:  svcs -a | grep physical
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[20:03:51] <sommerfeld> should show two services, one disabled, the other online
[20:04:45] <chris_d> nwam is online
[20:04:53] <chris_d> default is disabled.
[20:04:59] <chris_d> sommerfeld, swith them?
[20:05:29] <chris_d> *switch
[20:07:00] * stevel nods
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[20:07:28] <sommerfeld> yep, see nwamd(1m) for instructions on how to switch
[20:07:54] <sommerfeld> nwam phase 0 has a "one link at a time" limit
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[20:10:43] <gdamore> Hmm.. Greg Onufer found a bug in the DMA portion of my hme putback.
[20:10:59] <gdamore> It doesn't normally hit anyone (since DMA is ~never used with hme)
[20:11:02] <chris_d> That has solved the problem.
[20:11:05] <chris_d> Thanks, guys!
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[20:12:23] <WickedWicky> hi guys and gals
[20:14:27] <sommerfeld> gdamore: oops
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[20:19:25] <theRealballchalk> heallow
[20:22:22] <yjsong> Such as the following: http://opensolaris.org/os/community/on/os_dev_process/
[20:22:25] <Abe_Froman> is there a way to add permanent static routes to solaris without an init script?
[20:22:47] <yjsong> Sorry please ignore.
[20:23:11] <sommerfeld> Abe_Froman: route -p add
[20:23:13] <sommerfeld> see man page
[20:23:31] <tomww> Abe_Froman: yes, and look the the file which is created to permantently store the routes
[20:23:38] <Abe_Froman> interesting!
[20:25:39] <tomww> /etc/inet/static_routes
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[20:30:31] <WickedWicky> an you give me any hints on howto trace which process is making me want to throw my keyboard trough my monitor cause it's causing my system to take 5 minutes to show me a logon screen?
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[20:36:22] <sunmaster> Did anyone read this : http://enterpriselinuxlog.blogs.techtarget.com/2007/07/18/opensolaris-users-group-to-ian-murdock-sun-youre-missing-the-point/  ?
[20:37:27] <sunmaster> It seems that even in the OpenSolaris community not everyone is happy with Project Indiana.
[20:39:09] <sommerfeld> the thing to remember is that ian is in marketing, not engineering
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[20:40:23] <brendang> It's a big project that is related to a big community, there will naturally be disagreements.
[20:41:06] <sommerfeld> and remember that marketing is where the rubber meets the sky...
[20:41:25] <brendang> it can be far worse when people are too afraid to speak out (such as corporations with a "no bad news" culture. Enron, etc.)
[20:43:11] <tomww> what I think is, if people are complaining about the current picture of indiana, they should put theyr energy into makeing suggestions and be productive (instead of ranting)
[20:45:04] <axisys> just got my 10G ethernet card.. oohooo!
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[20:47:47] <axisys> anyone knows what this error means ?
[20:48:07] <tomww> axisys: it's not an error to own a 10G card :-)
[20:48:10] <axisys> ipf: [ID 604323 kern.warning] WARNING: Unknown layer 2 header size for hme0 type 0
[20:48:16] <axisys> tomww: good one :P
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[20:49:12] <brendang> If anyone was at OSCON and saw the DTrace comment on the "Tools we wish we had" whiteboard; Adam just immortalised it -- http://blogs.sun.com/ahl/entry/dtrace_knockoffs
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[20:53:54] <axisys> brendang: wow!
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[20:55:25] <axisys> so anyone can explain what this means ?
[20:55:27] <axisys> ipf: [ID 604323 kern.warning] WARNING: Unknown layer 2 header size for hme0 type 0
[20:55:39] <axisys> nothing found in google yet that would make sense
[20:57:43] <sommerfeld> there might be something in gdamore's head that would make sense
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[20:58:33] <axisys> gdamore: ping
[20:59:58] <axisys> this is what I found in bug
[21:00:00] <axisys> http://sunsolve.sun.com/search/document.do?assetkey=1-1-5014412-1
[21:00:34] <CIA-26> mcwalter: PSARC/2007/110 Monza Platform Support, 6528233 Solaris support for Monza platform
[21:00:40] <Abe_Froman> monza?
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[21:07:40] <sommerfeld> looks like another ATCA blade (carrier-grade telco stuff)
[21:08:12] <axisys> hmm.. 10 G card OS requirement: Solaris 10 01/07 Operating System
[21:08:15] <axisys> shit!
[21:08:18] <jpd> probably intel one
[21:08:42] <axisys> that means I can't use my 10 G card yet?
[21:09:04] <oxygene> 01/07 is ancient ;)
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[21:10:32] <sommerfeld> jpd: unlikely since several sparc/sun4v files were touched in the integration
[21:11:09] <jpd> k - theres an intel one out there
[21:11:22] <jpd> be T2 then
[21:11:37] <sommerfeld> http://www.sun.com/products-n-solutions/hw/networking/atca/index.jsp
[21:11:50] <sommerfeld> show opteron & two sparcs, no intel
[21:12:10] <axisys> sol 10 11/06 is the latest
[21:12:31] <axisys> oxygene: are u reading backwards or is it me?
[21:12:55] <elektronkind> we're still waiting for 7/07 to be released.
[21:13:25] <jpd> theres a intel on the way - seen the white box version as it fits the ATCA standard
[21:13:31] <elektronkind> it would have been nice to have it prior to the start of the fall academic semester
[21:13:34] <axisys> elektronkind: exactly.. ths OS requirement for 10 g card is sol 10 01/07 or above
[21:13:48] <axisys> the latest sol is sol 10 11/06
[21:14:01] <axisys> so that means I cant use 10 G card yet?!
[21:14:10] <elektronkind> what 10Gb card?
[21:15:16] <axisys> elektronkind: sun x8 express dual 10 gigabit ethernet  <-- google
[21:16:06] <elektronkind> http://www.sun.com/products/networking/ethernet/10gigethernet/specs.xml
[21:16:12] <elektronkind> scroos down to Operating Systems
[21:16:18] <elektronkind> Solaris SPARC and X86 Operating System
[21:16:19] <elektronkind> Solaris 10 11/06
[21:16:19] <elektronkind> Solaris 10 6/06 with Patch 118833-36 for SPARC and Patch 118855-36 for x64
[21:16:36] <elektronkind> you can use that card (Netptune-based?) now
[21:16:51] <elektronkind> s/netptune/neptune
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[21:17:41] <axisys> elektronkind: awesome dude.. i was freaking out..
[21:17:58] <axisys> according to the started guide it says 01/07
[21:18:15] <axisys> cool .. so ii can use that now
[21:18:49] <axisys> let me go plug it in..
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[21:39:05] <Berny> evening
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[21:42:18] <Berny> may one ask a question about a sol10 related issue tonight?
[21:43:19] <elektronkind> sure
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[21:44:33] <Berny> if i have a nisplus server running on a sol10 box using ldap as backend store... and one pretty old box (for reasons yet unknown) tries to lookup uid=++ in the passwd table it happens that after a little while the nisd on the sol10 box goes into "sleep"
[21:45:23] <Berny> leaving all other nis clients pretty alone...
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[21:46:00] <Berny> has anyone seen something like that before?
[21:46:10] <elektronkind> not I
[21:46:47] <Berny> oh well... any hint on how to find out which process on that sol2.6 box tries to lookup ++ ?
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[21:50:01] <wamty> any aussies? funny windows joke, http://fukung.net/v/233/aussie_windaz1.jpg
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[21:52:49] <gridlok> fuckin' oath
[21:52:58] <wamty> oath?
[21:52:59] <gridlok> i gotta start sayin' that instead of yes
[21:53:11] <gridlok> that's what it says on the yes button
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[22:03:25] <CIA-26> rm160521: 6446301 ZFS mountpoint reverted back from legacy but sharenfs property not honored, 6506000 onnv: sharenfs & shareiscsi 'off'->'off' should not trigger mount, 6579101 zfs set mountpoint has inconsistent behaviour with long path
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[22:29:09] <oninoshiko> hrm...
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[22:43:41] <trygvis> say, after I fdisk a drive and create a fat32 parition spanning the entire drive and run mkfs -F pcfs, is there anything else I have to do?
[22:44:19] <Atomdrache> Does anybody know a simple way to set the date on an IPX with SunOS 4.1.4 to something later than 2007.12.31?  I heard there's a patch, but I'm not sure it's still downloadable.
[22:44:21] <trygvis> I did mkfs -F pcfs -o fat=32 /dev/rdsk/c2t0d0p0:1, but still mount -o pcfs /dev/dsk/c2t0d0p0:1 /mnt is failngi
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[22:51:39] <axisys> need help detecting the 10 G card on sol 10 11/06 running on T2000
[22:51:53] <axisys> ifconfig -a plumb does not show it
[22:52:49] <axisys> here is how prtdiag -v looks like http://rafb.net/p/37vKTW87.html
[22:53:14] <axisys> boot -r did not help either
[22:53:24] <axisys> do I need to get some special driver?
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[23:02:31] <axisys> looks like I need the driver
[23:02:45] <axisys> http://www.sun.com/download/products.xml?id=45a593ce
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[23:08:20] <axisys> ooh00! i see them now
[23:08:33] <axisys> nxge0 and nxge1
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