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[00:12:02] <blueandwhiteg3> What is the best suggestion for benchmarking zfs/raid-z performance? I'm primarily interested in sustained read/write speeds
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[00:13:45] <seanmcg> random or sequential read/writes ?
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[00:14:01] <asyd> bonnie++ ?
[00:14:12] <seanmcg> either way, theres filebench which has  abunch of profiles to choose from..
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[00:16:13] <asyd> http://blogs.sun.com/csg/entry/bugs_of_the_week woah
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[00:17:14] <asyd> why zfs cache data block pointers ?  because it waits the operation finished before to update new blocks pointers ?
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[00:20:18] <jamesd_> damm now that is a big file.
[00:20:24] <asyd> indeed
[00:20:43] <Plaidrab> I've had JASS produce some monsters, but we've solved that. :)
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[00:25:43] <Plaidrab> I don't suppose there's an easy way to remove the gnu compiler toolchain?
[00:25:58] <asyd> pkgrm ?
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[00:26:24] <Plaidrab> heh
[00:26:27] <jamesd_> Plaidrab, just dont put  /usr/sfw in your path
[00:26:49] <Plaidrab> fair enough
[00:26:52] <ravv> Plaidrab, you were right, they showed up in format.
[00:27:43] <Plaidrab> Probably means those targets were already enumerated in /dev/dsk, you just didn't realise it.
[00:27:47] <Plaidrab> Glad it's working out
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[00:33:06] * nrubsig groans
[00:33:14] * nrubsig is officially busted
[00:33:19] * nrubsig screams
[00:34:11] * nrubsig hates birthdays
[00:34:52] <jamesd_> nrubsig, did you not get the komonodragon that you have been begging^Wasking for?
[00:36:15] <nrubsig> jamesd_: Erm, I already take care of a bunch of them.
[00:36:43] <jamesd_> nrubsig, but we know you will always want one more, no matter how many you get
[00:37:01] <nrubsig> jamesd_: we "only" have puppies
[00:37:10] <nrubsig> jamesd_: they will grow
[00:37:15] <nrubsig> jamesd_: and eat
[00:37:26] <nrubsig> jamesd_: and when they're older a normal zoo gets them
[00:37:39] <nrubsig> and then we get the next row of eggs
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[00:42:33] <nrubsig> steleman: offtopic: do you know http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maya_the_Bee ?
[00:42:35] <blueandwhiteg3> seanmcg: sorry, i got a phone call
[00:42:44] <steleman> nrubsig: nope
[00:42:49] <nrubsig> oh
[00:42:56] <steleman> nrubsig: i don't frequent wikipedia often :-)
[00:43:09] <nrubsig> steleman: didn't you grew up in germany ?
[00:43:21] <steleman> nrubsig: nope i grew up in Romania
[00:43:35] <blueandwhiteg3> seanmcg: i'm primarily interested in large sequential file reads and writes - think big media files, big disk images
[00:43:56] <nrubsig> steleman: well, then the joke is useless...
[00:44:15] <steleman> now i'm intrigued :-)
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[00:44:37] <steleman> i read the story of Maya The Bee when i was a kid
[00:45:36] <nrubsig> steleman: just got a call from my oldest niece... she has a phone ring sound (or whatever it's called) with the Maja song and a different text about "once there way a bad man [...] and his name was osama [...]" ... VERY funny... :-)
[00:45:59] <steleman> lol
[00:46:14] <nrubsig> steleman: but you need to know the original sound and text of the "maja the bee" series
[00:46:26] <nrubsig> steleman: otherwise the joke is pointless
[00:46:59] <e^ipi> yet you told it anyways
[00:47:00] <e^ipi> ;)
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[00:48:12] <steleman> nrubsig: i haven't seen the series i just read the book
[00:48:32] <blueandwhiteg3> anybody on long file read/writes?
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[00:49:44] <nrubsig> blueandwhiteg3: what is your problem ?
[00:49:49] <steleman> blueandwhiteg3: -D_LARGEFILE_SOURCE -D_FILE_OFFSET_BITS=64
[00:50:26] <blueandwhiteg3> I'm trying to benchmark them. I'm concerned with ascertaining throughput... sustained read/write... big files (many GBs)
[00:51:35] <nrubsig> blueandwhiteg3: which filesystem do you use ?
[00:51:39] <blueandwhiteg3> ZFS
[00:51:42] <nrubsig> groan
[00:51:53] <nrubsig> blueandwhiteg3: wrong filesystem for that purpose
[00:52:01] <nrubsig> blueandwhiteg3: use QFS, please
[00:52:08] <jamesd_> nrubsig, why do you say that?
[00:52:15] <twincest> QFS is not yet free, afaik.
[00:52:20] <twincest> (although you can use it without paying)
[00:52:47] <nrubsig> jamesd_: because ZFS is neither suited for fast thoughput of very large files or for stable throughput
[00:53:31] <nrubsig> jamesd_: if you benchmark ZFS with large writes you'll see lots of "spikes" in the troughput
[00:53:53] <nrubsig> twincest: AFAIK qfs and samfs are going to be released as part of the storage stuff
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[00:54:00] <twincest> nrubsig: yes i think so too
[00:54:01] <jamesd_> nrubsig, thats because it flushes the data every 5 seconds...
[00:54:03] <twincest> nrubsig: but not yet :)
[00:54:29] <twincest> of course i doubt anyone will complain about people using it "illegally" since they're about to open source it anyway.
[00:55:17] <nrubsig> jamesd_: AFAIK blueandwhiteg3 wants to write large amounts of data continously and ZFS's behaviour of caching isn't usefull for that purpose.
[00:55:33] * nrubsig remebers the stupid discussion ZFS vs. directio
[00:55:46] <twincest> setfa -D <3
[00:55:59] <nrubsig> twincest: ?!
[00:56:41] <twincest> nrubsig: (in QFS, not ZFS)
[00:56:51] <blueandwhiteg3> I really want the reliability of ZFS, in terms of checksumming, as i'm atop a RAID-Z
[00:57:01] <blueandwhiteg3> I don't what QFS is (googling now)
[00:57:59] <nrubsig> blueandwhiteg3: QFS is a different filesystem which was designed with "quality of service" (e.g. guranteed write and/or read throughput) and HPC workloads in mind. And it supports multiple readers+writers
[00:58:16] <blueandwhiteg3> nrubsig: it doesn't sound like it will fit the fill
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[00:58:19] <blueandwhiteg3> *bill
[00:58:28] <nrubsig> blueandwhiteg3: why ?
[00:59:06] <blueandwhiteg3> nrubsig: Can I stack it atop a RAID-Z?
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[01:00:18] <nrubsig> blueandwhiteg3: RAID-Z is specific to ZFS
[01:00:59] <blueandwhiteg3> nrubsig: My point exactly...
[01:01:42] <nrubsig> blueandwhiteg3: but why do you need RAID-Z ? You can use something like RAID-5 and QFS's write method avoids problems like the "write hole" and other hiccups anyway.
[01:02:11] <blueandwhiteg3> nrubsig: RAID-5?
[01:02:50] <pfn> blueandwhiteg3, if you want performance, why raidz?
[01:03:04] <blueandwhiteg3> This is a performance archival volume, basically
[01:03:10] <pfn> yes, why raidz?
[01:03:15] <pfn> raid1+0 is best at this
[01:03:29] <nrubsig> blueandwhiteg3: and if you put inodes+log on a seperate disk QFS is pretty much unbeatable from both performance and throughput view of point
[01:03:41] <pfn> a bit expensive for disk space, but 1+0 performs fastest
[01:03:57] <blueandwhiteg3> pfn: I'm trying to balance cost / performance
[01:04:04] <nrubsig> blueandwhiteg3: "RAID 5" means blocklevel striping with parity data distributed across all disks
[01:04:05] <pfn> blueandwhiteg3, disk space is cheap
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[01:04:16] <pfn> blueandwhiteg3, really, you should do raid 1+0
[01:04:26] <pfn> blueandwhiteg3, the best option if you want to balance cost, is to dynamically grow your zpool
[01:04:32] <pfn> i.e. start with a 2 disk mirror
[01:04:33] <blueandwhiteg3> I just want to benchmark the thing as it is write now for long, continuous read/writes. I'm looking for the best metadology
[01:04:59] <pfn> blueandwhiteg3, and add mirrors as you need more space
[01:05:16] <pfn> so you can start out with 500gb, fully redundant for like $220 (if sata)
[01:05:31] <nrubsig> blueandwhiteg3: again, I doubt that ZFS is usefull for long continous read/writes if you have other operations running on the same machine, too. The ZFS caching will kill you.
[01:05:33] <blueandwhiteg3> pfn: Even if I switch, I still want to benchmark!
[01:05:50] <pfn> blueandwhiteg3, and if you're benchmarking, why are you benchmarking over nfs?
[01:05:59] <blueandwhiteg3> I'm not benchmarking over NFS>
[01:06:06] <pfn> you were yesterday...
[01:06:15] <blueandwhiteg3> This is direct now
[01:06:16] <pfn> blueandwhiteg3, in any case, raidz is not "fast"
[01:06:19] <blueandwhiteg3> I have my raid up
[01:06:30] <blueandwhiteg3> I understand the theory. I have four drives I'm playing with... I just want to be able to test them for my workload effectively.
[01:06:48] <jamesd_> pfn, compare it to raid5 writes...
[01:07:03] <pfn> jamesd_, it should be comparable to raid5....
[01:07:14] <pfn> but not raid1 or any 1+0 variant
[01:07:19] <blueandwhiteg3> I'd really like to just start dumping data to/from the drive as quickly as possible and be able to generate a graph
[01:07:22] <jamesd_> pfn, try it...  on the JBOD of your choice... raid5 writes suck
[01:07:42] <nrubsig> jamesd_: RAID-5 with QFS does not suck
[01:07:45] <blueandwhiteg3> You guys are theorizing when all I want is a suggestion for some kind of tool
[01:07:46] <pfn> jamesd_, I have a raid5 as my primary disk for windows...
[01:08:22] <jamesd_> pfn, and how fast do your writes happen, in raid5 a write is a full stripe read/compute parity/full stripe write.
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[01:08:38] <pfn> jamesd_, it's slow, I know that  :p
[01:09:01] <jamesd_> pfn, most of the time with raidz its a full or partial  stripe write only, so it works at disk speed.
[01:09:24] <pfn> I haven't benchmarked in a long time, but I had something around 20MB/s sustained writes
[01:09:31] <pfn> on old pata drives
[01:09:32] <nrubsig> blueandwhiteg3: for the log: I am NOT theorizing. I've setup QFS with RAID and seperate paths for inode+log and data (e.g. inode+log on solid-state disk and data on RAID-0 or RAID-5/normal disks) several times and all customers are happy with their installations
[01:10:03] <blueandwhiteg3> nrubsig: I believe you. My point is that I am seeking a tool to test this. iozone doesn't seem to like big files?
[01:10:36] <blueandwhiteg3> and even if it did, it doesn't seem to be designed to show me what the throughput on a continuous read/write looks like over time, just a final number
[01:10:38] <nrubsig> blueandwhiteg3: I don't know iozone.
[01:11:28] <jamesd_> bonnie++ possibly, i would just use what ever app you are going to deploy, and script a bunch of dd's
[01:11:36] <jamesd_> simulateously.
[01:11:57] <nrubsig> blueandwhiteg3: I suggest to ask in storage-discuss at opensolaris dot org
[01:13:38] <blueandwhiteg3> jamesd_: my uses are basically one file at a time
[01:14:51] <blueandwhiteg3> does bonnie++ build under solaris?
[01:15:15] <blueandwhiteg3> i've also been trying to use iostat to simply monitor long reads / writes, but it's really crude
[01:15:58] <jamesd_> yes it should build i have done it several times
[01:16:37] <Trisk[laptop]> what is a good interface for a program to get statistics on its own memory usage (Solaris-specific or otherwise)?
[01:16:55] <blueandwhiteg3> jamesd_: with changes? if not, that would be the first thing i've tried to build yet that actually works!
[01:17:16] <jamesd_> no changes, its written in plain C
[01:18:11] <blueandwhiteg3> jamesd_: impressive! it built, as long as i used gmake
[01:18:14] <SYS64738> I must do a qmail + vpopmail + mysql mailserver is it more convenient a sparse root or a whole root zone ?
[01:18:32] <blueandwhiteg3> i have been pretty disenfranchised about building software... iperf, x264, mplayer... a nightmare
[01:19:11] <jamesd_> SYS64738,   sparse root is fine...  just make sure they can be installed on a writeable partion... hint  make   /usr/local a special dir.
[01:19:37] <SYS64738> jamesd_, thanks
[01:20:08] <jamesd_> of if you are using blastwave don't inherit  /opt
[01:20:14] <jamesd_> er or
[01:22:30] <SYS64738> I tryed sparse root with squid with ncsa helper, that read from a file generated by the lotus domino
[01:22:47] <SYS64738> it worked but sparse it's little bit tricky for file permissions
[01:23:38] <blueandwhiteg3> jamesd_: do you have any sample commands with bonnie++? it seems to be failing on what i'm feeding it
[01:24:46] <jamesd_> i'm looking for my copy...
[01:24:56] <jamesd_> do you have the download url handy?
[01:26:38] <blueandwhiteg3> http://www.coker.com.au/bonnie++/
[01:26:49] <ravv> If I install a ide-controller card (hpt372), how do i make solaris load the appropriate modules?
[01:27:38] <jamesd_> ravv, if its supported, it will work as soon as you reboot the box.. you may want to  do   devfsadm   or  reboot -- -r
[01:28:45] <ravv> Then its not supported :)
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[01:39:12] <SYS64738> how works logrotating in solaris ?
[01:39:43] <pfn> you get something that rotates logs for you
[01:39:49] <LeftWing> SYS64738: man logadm
[01:40:15] <SYS64738> thanks
[01:42:46] <SYS64738> it's time to go to bed
[01:42:49] <SYS64738> good night
[01:43:35] <pfn> hmm, neat, I guess I can run VS and vmware both at the same time...
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[01:49:24] <yokobr> hi guys
[01:49:40] <jamesd_> hello
[01:49:41] <yokobr> My opensolaris says that it cant find my hd
[01:49:49] <yokobr> its sata
[01:50:01] <jamesd_> yokobr, did you have *bsd installed on it previously
[01:50:06] <yokobr> nope
[01:50:09] <yokobr> linux
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[01:50:34] <jamesd_> try running  format -e   .. and see if it finds it then...
[01:50:49] <jamesd_> you may need to relabel it,  but that will mean you loose all your data on it
[01:51:14] <yokobr> =(
[01:51:23] <yokobr> then, no solaris for now
[01:51:31] <yokobr> cause i cant lose my work
[01:51:37] <jamesd_> you can install solaris in vmware
[01:51:45] <yokobr> and it would be a huge backup to do
[01:51:56] <yokobr> no, i want full performance.
[01:52:11] <yokobr> i thougt that it was because its not ide.
[01:53:02] <pfn> why don't you just back your data up, install solaris and then restore...
[01:53:47] <jamesd_> pfn, most people dont have 400GB of tape backup availible...
[01:53:52] * pfn hates switching/restore OS on the same machine
[01:54:01] <jamesd_> and that is a typical size disk these days.
[01:54:04] <pfn> jamesd_, user data tends not to be that big, minus movies, music, etc.
[01:54:17] <pfn> jamesd_, there's an easy solution for that as well, external usb disk enclosure
[01:54:29] <pfn> $25 sata -> usb external disk enclosure + $110 500gb disk
[01:54:30] <pfn> done deal
[01:54:44] <pfn> http://www.xpcgear.com/xp350s1s.html
[01:55:02] <pfn> http://www.xpcgear.com/sg50sa16.html
[01:56:52] <pfn> I'm tempted to get that for myself
[01:57:01] <pfn> and another 5 drives for raid1+0 + hotspare
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[01:58:15] <pfn> 1TB drives are too expensive... $353 ...
[01:58:18] <pfn> if the price were linear...
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[01:59:10] <jamesd_> pfn, yeah its on my wish list to get  4 500 GB sata drives and a usparc compatible sata controller...  for my blade 1500... and 2GB of ram.. for a decent fileserver,  and add a  8+ drive case.
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[02:00:11] <pfn> the addonics 5disk enclosure sounds very interesting for me
[02:00:11] <pfn> http://www.addonics.com/products/raid_system/ae4rcs35nsa.asp
[02:00:11] <pfn> I'm interested in gettin gthat
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[02:00:15] <yokobr> no way
[02:00:20] <pfn> 5 drives in the size of 3 5.25" bays
[02:00:37] <pfn> so, with 6 external 5.25" bays, you could have 10 drives
[02:00:59] <yokobr> its better buy a used pc.
[02:01:02] <yokobr> an used*
[02:01:09] <pfn> I'm guessing the problem at that point is getting an sata controller that handles 10 drives...
[02:01:15] <jamesd_> yeah...   there are lots of  large atx cases on pricewatch.com for about $30.
[02:02:14] <jamesd_> pfn, i'm only going to install a   4x sata controller,   pci-x  but putting it into a  64 bit pci slot...  so it will be slower than full  pci-x but good enough for  4x sata drives.
[02:02:25] <jamesd_> er  4 port sata controller
[02:02:56] <Gman> Tpenta, going to mail the sosug list and see if anyone's up for even just an informal dinner or something
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[02:06:13] <Tpenta> doing that today, promise
[02:06:19] <Gman> heh
[02:06:23] <Tpenta> i will actually book th erooms
[02:06:32] <Gman> i just joined the group
[02:09:35] <pfn> jamesd_, my next step is convincing my wife to let me buy the stuff to build up a new box  ;-)
[02:09:51] * pfn is currently running solaris within a VM  :(
[02:10:43] <jamesd_> pfn, its easiest to  do it piece by piece, so she doesn't know you are actually spending $500 for a box,  it just looks like you bought  5 100.00 parts.
[02:11:24] <pfn> heh
[02:11:46] <pfn> the thought had crossed my mind
[02:12:44] 
[02:13:08] * pfn shrugs
[02:13:11] <pfn> try it and see...
[02:13:39] <jamesd_> of course i would love to get a  u40... and build it out to the way i want it... but i don't think i will get away with  paying $2200, for the low end model with the extra drive cage.
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[02:15:03] <jamesd__> of course i would love to get a  u40... and build it out to the way i want it... but i don't think i will get away with  paying $2200, for the low end model with the extra drive cage.
[02:22:25] <pfn> hmm, if I use iscsitadm to export some filesystems is it completely inoperable with nfs, cifs, etc?
[02:22:30] <pfn> sounds like it
[02:22:45] <pfn> sounds like the solaris iscsi target just creates a "virtual block device" on top of a filesystem?
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[02:23:04] <CSFrost> Good Evening Channel Crawlers!
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[02:23:59] <pfn> oh yeah, what's a thumper?
[02:24:29] <bda> X4500
[02:24:32] <bda> (Sun Fire)
[02:24:33] <CSFrost> a dangerous firecracker..
[02:24:45] <bda> Heh. It's raining out and people are still lighting 'em off.
[02:25:05] <CSFrost> same kind of weather here.. none going off yet though
[02:25:37] <CSFrost> I remember when I was in Hawaii, little kids were lighting them off, and there just isn't any effort to enforce anything there.
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[02:31:06] <CSFrost> 500gb maxtor sata, $90 free shipping, http://shop1.outpost.com/product/4551377;jsessionid=O1PFC8TICL7tuqiSysfmwA**.node2?site=sr:SEARCH:MAIN_RSLT_PG
[02:31:15] <CSFrost> just incase anyone is interested
[02:31:25] <Tpenta> wow
[02:31:28] <pfn> how's it compare to the $106 seagate?
[02:31:38] <Tempt> I'd take the Seagate.
[02:31:49] <CSFrost> 3year warrentee on the maxtor, 5 on seagate..
[02:31:56] <CSFrost> but for cheap storage .. shrug
[02:32:17] <Tempt> Seagate - more cache, NCQ, ... features!
[02:32:38] <pfn> $108 plus shipping for the segate... hmm
[02:34:17] <pfn> so, if I did zfs shareiscsi=on, on a filesystem and mounted it on an initiator, the initiator sees a block device... once the initiator formats and puts data into it, what does the target see?
[02:34:28] <pfn> just files representing the block device?
[02:36:30] <twincest> pfn: a zvol, iirc
[02:36:43] <pfn> what's a zvol... I didn't really see it described well on the website
[02:36:56] <twincest> pfn: a zvol acts like a raw block device, but exists inside a zfs pool
[02:37:08] <pfn> so what happens if you ls pool/zvol ?
[02:37:15] <twincest> you can't, it's not a filesystem
[02:37:52] <pfn> I see, so once you shareiscsi=on, it is no longer a filesystem?
[02:38:11] <twincest> i doubt you can set shareiscsi on a filesystem in the first place, not sure how that could work
[02:38:36] <twincest> the iscsi target examples i've seen create a zvol and share that
[02:38:39] <pfn> the documentation is a little funky, sounds like it affects new volumes created under the parent
[02:39:03] <pfn> zfs create -s -V size fs; zfs set shareiscsi=o fs
[02:39:07] <pfn> is what I saw in an example
[02:39:15] <twincest> instead of a filesystem
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[02:39:18] <pfn> I see
[02:39:42] <blueandwhiteg3> where is the nfs configuration file stored under solaris?
[02:39:49] <twincest> blueandwhiteg3: which part?
[02:40:02] <twincest> blueandwhiteg3: server/client general config in /etc/default/nfs, shares in /etc/dfs/dfstab
[02:40:15] <delewis> for anyone that's familiar with the interface taxonomies (http://www.opensolaris.org/os/community/arc/policies/interface-taxonomy/) -- did the "revised classifications" ever become practice? I still see "Evolving" being used for several interfaces.
[02:40:27] <richlowe> delewis: Yes.
[02:40:30] <blueandwhiteg3> got it
[02:40:47] <richlowe> delewis: I haven't seen Evolving in new cases, other than those related to DTrace and the like.
[02:40:47] <delewis> richlowe, isn't "Evolving" supposed to be "Committed" then?
[02:40:50] <pfn> twincest, I see... but snapshot/send/recv all work on zvols like they would filesystems, though?
[02:40:52] <twincest> blueandwhiteg3: except for zfs, then you use the sharenfs filesystem property, don't put anything in dfstab
[02:40:59] <blueandwhiteg3> ah ha!
[02:41:00] <delewis> richlowe, DTrace, ZFS, etc.
[02:41:01] <twincest> pfn: i don't know off hand.  i'm fairly sure they do though
[02:41:09] <richlowe> delewis: habit?
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[02:41:15] <delewis> ah.
[02:41:18] <blueandwhiteg3> I am trying to figure out why sharing my zfs volume over nfs isn't working
[02:41:20] <delewis> just curious :-)
[02:41:32] <twincest> pfn: you can also create sparse zvols - export a 10TB iscsi target on a 1TB disk, and add more space to the pool later when needed
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[02:44:03] <pfn> blueandwhiteg3, first tip, always check showmount -e
[02:44:21] <twincest> blueandwhiteg3: is nfs/server running? :)
[02:45:13] <blueandwhiteg3> I'm rebooting my client, it's possible something was screwed up
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[02:46:26] <Gman> any opensolaris.org ops happen to be around?
[02:46:58] <twincest> do any of them come here, other than stevel? :)
[02:47:04] <Gman> sch sometimes
[02:47:14] * Tpenta is here
[02:47:59] <Gman> Tpenta, you have ops?
[02:49:17] * Gman meant website ops rather than irc ops ;)
[02:49:44] * Gman wishes there was a way to export the membership list in mailman
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[02:51:47] <Tpenta> yea
[02:51:50] <Tpenta> well chanops
[02:51:55] <Tpenta> i was one of the first
[02:52:14] <Tpenta> wotcha need changing?
[02:52:49] <Gman> just wanted access to mailman
[02:53:03] <Tpenta> oh i thought you mean ops in here
[02:53:11] * Tpenta puts his glasses back on
[02:53:13] <Gman> nod
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[02:54:38] <ibb> i need to know about zfs, is this the channel?
[02:54:53] <Tpenta> depends on what you want to know
[02:55:20] <CSFrost> we have a need-to-know basis on zfs in here
[02:55:24] <ibb> i want to know, how many clients could write to the same file, before crashing the filesystem
[02:55:53] <ibb> thinking in the size of thousands of clusted systems
[02:56:00] <Tpenta> that seems to me to be more a function of the vfs layer
[02:56:29] <ibb> but it always ends up in the filesystem
[02:57:38] <pfn> it's queued down to the filesystem
[02:58:59] <trisk__> does anyone know why stat on a non-existent directory (on a zfs filesystem) would return ENOMEM sinetad of ENOENT? it's not documented to do that
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[02:59:16] <trisk__> *instead of, rather
[02:59:37] <Tpenta> trisk, for context, are you doing this over nfs from a linux box (there is a reason for me asking this)
[03:00:14] <trisk__> Tpenta: nope, this is a local disk
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[03:00:20] <Reidms-420R> Is there someone selling an RS/6000 in here by chance?
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[03:04:19] <Tpenta> peculiar, sounds like a bug
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[03:04:34] <pfn> trisk__, got a code snippet and output indicating this?
[03:04:53] <richlowe> huh, is the need for the xpg4 grep *really* just the different patern v. pattern_list behaviour?
[03:04:56] <richlowe> given it has an entirely separate implementation.
[03:05:18] <richlowe> and that I'm sick of seeing if grep ... > /dev/null 2>&1 rather than grep -q ;)
[03:05:23] <trisk__> pfn: it is in a large application that I just ran in a debugger (added a printf just to make sure I was right), but I'll try with a testcase
[03:06:12] <pfn> trisk__, a pastebin of truss ls foo also works...
[03:06:28] <pfn> it should give ENOENT on the stat() syscall
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[03:08:25] <trisk__> pfn: it doesn't work for ls, that's the weird thing
[03:08:55] <pfn> you mean you get ENOENT for ls?
[03:09:19] <trisk__> correct
[03:09:26] <trisk__> although it does lstat instead of stat...
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[03:12:43] <Tpenta> lstat64("ls", 0xFFBFF0B8)                       Err#2 ENOENT
[03:12:46] <Tpenta> in nv67
[03:13:07] <trisk__> snv_63 here
[03:13:16] <richlowe> oddly, stat appears not to.
[03:13:25] <richlowe> ah, it lstat's too
[03:13:52] <richlowe> (stat(1) that was)
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[03:21:21] <trisk__> ah, turns out it's another thread screwing with errno =\
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[03:22:13] <trisk__> stat is working correctly
[03:23:58] <trisk__> hmm, truss doesn't show anything changing errno though
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[03:25:49] <trisk__> http://rafb.net/p/CTdEC064.html
[03:26:11] <trisk__> I'm not sure why errno was changed
[03:26:57] <Gman> fricken jive.
[03:30:39] <boyd> Gman: +1
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[03:31:50] <palowoda> I wonder how much memory jive consumes.
[03:32:41] <CSFrost> wonder how many brain cells it kills to administer it..
[03:33:25] <palowoda> I've seen some backtrace dumps that where nearly 5 pages long from that thing.
[03:33:44] <CSFrost> that's quite a dump
[03:34:05] <CSFrost> it's a shame the way it came into play
[03:34:16] <palowoda> Probably free.
[03:34:40] <palowoda> You think there would be something better.
[03:34:53] <CSFrost> it was a brother cousin type relationship
[03:34:56] <CSFrost> political..
[03:35:06] <CSFrost> but I believe they pay for it still
[03:35:09] <palowoda> Heck the Sun portal server might even be better.
[03:36:20] <CSFrost> Wouldn't anything be better? :-P
[03:36:50] <twincest> you can just use the mailman archives
[03:38:11] <palowoda> Problem is you have to subscribe to too many lists.
[03:38:16] <CSFrost> I just feel bad for newcomers who don't know where to go..
[03:39:43] <CSFrost> I am shopping for lcd's, anyone want to toss me a suggestion or two?
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[03:40:04] <CSFrost> I have T221's on my workstation, but my eyes aren't that good anymore
[03:40:33] <CSFrost> or whether I need a projector for my old self.. heh
[03:41:20] <palowoda> I have two 24 inch LCD's one a Gateway and the other a Samsung.  650.00 and 700.00 at Frys respective.  Both
[03:41:24] <palowoda> seem ok.
[03:41:56] <CSFrost> how's the text?
[03:42:28] <CSFrost> I have trouble reading text for long periods of time, even on my laptops.. which is a little annoying.
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[03:42:31] <palowoda> Some fonts are still rough but say Arial is fine.  I run them at 19200x1200.
[03:42:44] <Gman> palowoda, seems to be crapping out of me while trying to generate -discuss reports
[03:43:33] <palowoda> It really looks good with the Xchat window and say fonts around 32pt.
[03:43:51] <palowoda> I can read it from 6 feet away.
[03:44:32] <palowoda> And watch HD movies too boot. :)
[03:44:36] <CSFrost> I was almost thinking about getting a sharp lcd tv, which would be about the same resolution, with a larger screen.. but getting mixed reviews on using it for a pc monitor :-)
[03:45:17] <CSFrost> my eyesight definately isn't that sharp.. without contacts or glasses on a 17" laptop I have a 6" viewing range, hehe
[03:47:31] <sahafeez> this is a good deal http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=2825269&CatId=2775
[03:47:38] <palowoda> You would really be happy with a 24inch.  Any thing larger (by monitor) starts costing big bucks.  I did see one of those cheap Emprex 37 lcd tv's at Fry's today that could do 1920x1200 but it wasn't showing text.  Damn it was only 700.00
[03:48:51] <CSFrost> I have 22's now, and they really just aren't large enough, though it could be the resolution that does that
[03:49:12] <sahafeez> get 2
[03:49:16] <palowoda> Yeah 24's are where the res goes up.
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[03:49:20] <sahafeez> i have 2 x 22 inch crts
[03:49:29] <sahafeez> i was thinking about just getting this tho...
[03:49:41] <sahafeez> i had a sun 24 inch back in - 2001 @ work. it was nice.
[03:49:54] <CSFrost> I was thinking Sharp Aquos... but I'd be looking at 32-46" range or so
[03:50:55] <CSFrost> I have a benq 22 and 24 in tokyo, but wasn't even sure the 24 would be enough
[03:51:06] <CSFrost> You guys probably still have decent eyesight though
[03:52:15] <CSFrost> I can't see myself buying a dell 30" or anything though.. since I am sure there must be a decent lcd tv by that point.
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[03:53:00] <palowoda> If you go the tv/lcd route I would check it out as a monitor before you buy it.
[03:53:14] <palowoda> Some are slow.
[03:54:02] <palowoda> Although not all of use are first person game players.
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[03:54:24] <CSFrost> think I am better off shopping here? or checking out the asian market?
[03:54:38] <CSFrost> I don't care about games..
[03:55:18] <CSFrost> I'd just like to see things without having to put contacts on.. etc   since I am jobless, I don't see a reason to have to wear contacts or glasses at home
[03:55:32] <sahafeez> if you are shopping this is cool http://consumerist.com/consumer/amazon/search-amazon-for-deals-up-to-90-off-228705.php
[03:57:59] <CSFrost> if you can stand amazon much :-P
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[03:59:08] <sahafeez> i never had any issues with them.
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[04:01:36] <CSFrost> I have some inventory related issues with them in the past
[04:01:55] <CSFrost> nothing huge, I can just get annoyed if I order something, and it isn't there.
[04:02:52] <CSFrost> probably doesn't give me the right to whine, but I'd rather not pay for something if it isn't on the way to my door..
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[04:17:02] <CSFrost> Sahafeez, or Palowoda, any experience with toshiba lcd's?
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[04:19:09] <palowoda> No, never used them.  I'll be most panels are just a few manufactures rebranded.  What Samsung and Phillips.
[04:19:22] <palowoda> And Sony.
[04:21:03] <edwardocallaghan> Can anyone point me to last nights logs please?
[04:22:52] <CSFrost> logs? for this chat?
[04:23:23] <edwardocallaghan> yea..
[04:23:26] <CSFrost> http://www.uwyn.com/drone/log/bevinbot/opensolaris
[04:23:41] <twincest> didn't the logs used to be in the topic?
[04:23:48] <twincest> until someone went and removed all the useful info :)
[04:25:23] <CSFrost> they are there when you enter the channel
[04:25:31] <CSFrost> in the daily message thing or whatever it is
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[04:26:08] <twincest> ah
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[04:27:13] <twincest> who runs drone?
[04:28:00] <palowoda> It's says powered by "Rife" right on the page.
[04:28:54] <twincest> no, i mean the guy here, i forget his nick.
[04:28:59] <twincest> (Bevin?)
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[04:35:40] <CSFrost> what would you need three LAN jacks on a lcd for?
[04:35:54] <dlg> maybe its a switch
[04:35:55] <e^ipi> plugging in to 3 lans?
[04:36:22] <twincest> CSFrost: lacp
[04:36:43] <twincest> HA-monitor
[04:37:39] <CSFrost> HA monitor? lol, I am so out of my league in this area
[04:38:14] <g4lt-U60> RGB cat5 ;)
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[04:40:36] <dclarke> evening
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[04:41:07] <dclarke> tonight feels like a great night to build ON snv_68
[04:41:12] <dclarke> non-debug too
[04:41:18] <dclarke> thanks to Alan Hargreaves !
[04:43:13] <dclarke> # UMASK sets the initial shell file creation mode mask.  See umask(1).
[04:43:26] <dclarke> does anyone *else* modify this ?  other than me ?
[04:43:32] <dclarke> its in /etc/default/login
[04:44:29] <g4lt-U60> dclarke, no, because I could typically give a rip if my clients can properly use umask.  I call people who can't set umask themselves "job security"
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[04:44:51] <dclarke> I'm not quite that ... trusting
[04:45:02] <dclarke> heck .. I even change CMASK in init
[04:45:38] <CSFrost> twincest, it's actually for playback/recording to LAN devices... and allow for streams over the network.. well I'll be..
[04:46:02] <g4lt-U60> what, I trust people..............to screw up.  in fact, in some months, I COUNT on it
[04:46:03] <twincest> CSFrost: i don't understand.  it can stream MPEG/whatever over the network?
[04:46:54] <CSFrost> yep
[04:47:10] <twincest> that's neat.  but kinda.. weird.
[04:47:24] <CSFrost> it lets you play, record, watch all simultaniously evidently
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[04:47:39] <CSFrost> or store video's on a SAN etc..
[04:47:54] <CSFrost> board looks kind of cell derived too..
[04:47:57] <dclarke> # tail -2 /etc/default/init
[04:47:58] <dclarke> CMASK=027
[04:48:00] <dclarke> LC_ALL=C
[04:48:10] <dclarke> what are your thoughts on that ?
[04:48:17] * dclarke really .. I am interested
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[04:49:52] <g4lt-U60> depends, are your clients thumbfingered enough to typically run rm -rf themselves, or do you typically rely on a thembfinger in the group to drive the "restore from backup" roll?
[04:50:21] <dclarke> I trust users .. about as far as I can toss them
[04:50:23] <dclarke> so .. not much
[04:50:40] <g4lt-U60> that, and I'd use EN_us for LC_ALL, until C gets UTF8
[04:51:00] <dclarke> well .. I generally install a whack  of locale options
[04:51:07] <dclarke> French is big up here
[04:51:33] <dclarke> and the default is POSIX C but users can choose LANG=FR
[04:51:36] <dclarke> or whatever
[04:51:54] <dclarke> by default I go with  LC_ALL=C  LANG=C
[04:52:13] <dclarke> is that a poor choice ?
[04:53:15] <g4lt-U60> not really, just my preference is for a UTF8 locale like en.UTF8
[04:53:31] <g4lt-U60> YMMV of course
[04:53:45] <dclarke> umm .. true
[04:53:56] <twincest> i prefer to default to C, and let users set an iso 8859/utf-8/whatever locale if they want
[04:54:01] <dclarke> now I need to modify the /boot/grub/menu.lst to use ttya console only
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[05:04:21] <dclarke> I just got an odd little message
[05:04:31] <dclarke> krtld: Unused kernel arguments: `console=ttya'.
[05:04:36] <dclarke> module /platform/i86pc/kernel//unix: text at [0xfe800000, 0xfe8abc47] data at 0xfec00000
[05:04:37] <dclarke> module /kernel/genunix: text at [0xfe8abc48, 0xfe9f1887] data at 0xfec4a840
[05:04:40] <dclarke> Unused kernel arguments: `console=ttya'. ??
[05:04:51] <twincest> forgot the -B? :)
[05:04:58] <dclarke> hrmm .. I guess that is not the way to specify that ttya is the console
[05:05:02] <dclarke> oh .. drat
[05:05:13] <dclarke> I need the -B in there to specify options eh ?
[05:05:20] <twincest> yes
[05:05:30] <dclarke> I see a reboot in my very near future
[05:05:49] <dclarke> oh .. also .. just for giggles .. I never use bootadm .. I don't see that it helps me much
[05:06:03] <dclarke> hopefully direct edits of the grub menu.lst are fine
[05:06:26] <twincest> yes, but if you confuse bootadm, reboot -- -foo won't work
[05:06:31] <twincest> (it does that by editing the grub conf)
[05:07:00] <pfn> dclarke, I think bootadm is only useful for updating the boot_archive....
[05:07:07] <dclarke> okay .. I never use rebott and have used shutdown for many years
[05:07:07] <dclarke> just my way of things I guess
[05:07:08] <pfn> dclarke, anything else, I'd rather edit menu.lst directly
[05:07:15] <pfn> shutdown -i6 -g0 -y
[05:07:16] <pfn> ftw
[05:07:17] <pfn> :)
[05:08:19] <dclarke> thanks .. I appreaciate the feedback
[05:08:28] <dclarke> I have been using shutdown -g0 -y -i6 for years also
[05:09:49] <dclarke> one more boot
[05:10:00] <twincest> can i put rows/cols lines for the console in /etc/ttydefs?
[05:10:03] <dclarke> then I can get to the brass tacks of build snv_68 ON bits
[05:10:14] <dclarke> damn good question
[05:10:26] <dclarke> I have been sticking that in the users .profile for years
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[05:10:55] <twincest> i would like to have something sane when i log in on the console rather than 0/0 :)
[05:11:10] <dclarke> yep .. I agree
[05:11:41] <twincest> i guess it can't hurt to try.
[05:11:41] <dclarke> ooh .. this is looking good thus far
[05:11:56] <dclarke> my Kingston memory stick was detected automagically
[05:12:02] <dclarke> USB 2.0 device (usb951,1600) operating at hi speed (USB 2.x) on USB 2.0 root hub: storage@2, scsa2usb0 at bus address 2
[05:12:02] <dclarke>         Kingston DataTraveler II  5B571B0016A3
[05:12:19] <dclarke> cool .. CPU looks good too
[05:12:22] <dclarke> cpu0: x86 (CentaurHauls 6A9 family 6 model 10 step 9 clock 1200 MHz)
[05:12:24] <dclarke> cpu0: VIA Esther processor 1200MHz
[05:12:36] <twincest> http://rafb.net/p/hNJ5YS38.html < seems to work
[05:12:45] <dclarke> not exactly standard technology there .. this is a low power appliance
[05:13:08] <dclarke> hey !
[05:13:08] <dclarke> nice
[05:13:15] <dclarke> where did you put that config ?
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[05:13:30] <dclarke>  /etc/ttydefs?
[05:13:36] <twincest> in /etc/ttydefs i changed the line starting wit "console:" to: console:9600 hupcl opost onlcr rows 25 cols 80:9600::console
[05:13:56] <twincest> also, there's a smf properly under console-login to change the default terminal type to "vt100" instead of "sun-color"
[05:14:02] <twincest> (a lot more useful on serial)
[05:14:39] <dclarke> http://rafb.net/p/hXEVa362.html
[05:14:46] <dclarke> that is what I have thus far
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[05:15:41] <dclarke> why rows 25 ?
[05:15:50] <dclarke> the standard on DEC VT100 is 24
[05:16:40] <twincest> hm, right.  s/25/24/ :)
[05:16:51] <dclarke> console:9600 hupcl opost onlcr rows 24 cols 80:9600::console
[05:16:58] <dclarke> that looks correct ?
[05:17:04] <twincest> yep
[05:17:48] <dclarke> hrmmm .. I can change that to baud 115200
[05:18:04] <dclarke> my terminal can handle it .. but my tip connection can not
[05:18:11] <dclarke> better leave it at 9600
[05:18:15] <dclarke> that always works
[05:18:25] <twincest> you can, but you'll be sad when you have something that tries to use 9600 instead :)
[05:18:37] <dclarke> yes.. too true
[05:18:38] <twincest> although i did change it to 57600 on another system because it's what the dell LOM defaults to, for some reason
[05:18:45] <dclarke> okay .. one more reboot just to see what I get
[05:20:29] <dclarke> I should point out .. if I lose my console .. I'm totally screwed on this unit
[05:20:34] <dclarke> it only has serial port ..
[05:20:51] <dclarke> to do install I need to PXEBoot
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[05:25:53] <dclarke> twincest :  nice tip there ... thank you !
[05:26:00] <sahafeez> the reason is dell is stupid and has to be different. every thing ever made does 9600 default so dell said, hey i got a good idea, lets not be standard and drive people nuts and change the default
[05:26:08] <dclarke> twincest :  http://rafb.net/p/z4A7wD13.txt  <-- that is the result of that change
[05:26:19] <twincest> :)
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[05:26:55] <dclarke> sahafeez :  actually .. th Genesi people drove me nuts with their damn firmware on the EFIKA .. it wants 115200 by default
[05:27:08] <dclarke> and no matter how hard you try .. you can't get it to stick to 9600 baud
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[05:32:58] <g4lt-U60> <rant mode = on>
[05:33:01] <g4lt-U60>  you know, it really gets in my craw when people bone up their systems, THEN get an all of a sudden inviolable urge for data protection.  WHERE WAS THIS URGE WHEN YOU WERE BONING UP YOUR SYSTEM?
[05:33:07] <g4lt-U60> </rant mode>
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[05:34:09] <dclarke> I don't understand .. can you rant more please ?
[05:34:25] <dclarke> seriosuly .. I want to understand your position
[05:36:00] <g4lt-U60> some choom in another channel did some data damage to their disks, then when someone suggested to try to pull the data off via another system, they whined about making sure the data was preserved.  had they actually cared about the data in the first place and taken suitable precautions and backups, this wouldn't have been an issue
[05:36:11] <sahafeez> they should be bitch slapped for their stupidity
[05:36:27] <jbk> sounds like a typical business :)
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[05:36:42] <sahafeez> yes, people are dumb. remember the avg iq is 100
[05:36:56] <jbk> they would rather spend a million dollars to clean up a disaster rather than spend $1000 to prevent it
[05:36:57] <Tempt> The thing that gets me
[05:37:09] <Tempt> is the fact that the people who whinge the hardest when they lose their precious data
[05:37:18] <Tempt> are often the people who bang on about backups and love lecturing desktop users
[05:37:47] <Tempt> I'm reminded about the guy I knew who loved his DLT drives and used to bang on about the wonders of tape technology
[05:38:04] <Tempt> Pity he spent more time performance optimizing drivers and crap than actually backing up; he lost an entire machine worth of data
[05:39:33] <g4lt-U60> right, when a simple QIC drive would have worked wonders had it been USED
[05:39:45] <dclarke> oooh .. QIC tapes
[05:39:48] <bda> "choom"?
[05:39:51] * dclarke still has them here
[05:39:51] <Tempt> paper tape would have worked wonders if it had been used
[05:40:07] <Tempt> Still got a couple of 2Gb QIC drives and a pile of carts in a box somewhere
[05:40:08] <dclarke> in fact .. I wish I had an 8mm tape drive right now
[05:40:10] <g4lt-U60> bda yeah, I read "moon is a harsh mistress" too much as a child
[05:40:19] <bda> g4lt-U60: aha. Haven't read that in a while. :)
[05:40:44] <dclarke> well .. I have the most hack proof machine in the world at the moment
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[05:40:55] <dclarke> the RealTek ethernet drives don't work
[05:40:58] * g4lt-U60 is a veritable treasure trove of objectivist fiction :p
[05:41:01] <dclarke> hence .. no network
[05:41:18] <g4lt-U60> dclarke, sneakernet FTW ;)
[05:41:30] <dclarke> no floppy
[05:41:33] * Tempt notes his restore test recently completed, proving that backups are actually usable.
[05:41:34] <dclarke> no DVD or CDROM
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[05:48:15] <dclarke> you did a restore test ?
[05:48:37] * dclarke hands a cup of _respect_ over
[05:48:56] <twincest> restore test?  i am an expert, i do not need to test!
[05:49:35] <Tempt> Just restore tested every tape in the library
[05:49:44] <Tempt> What's the point of writing backups if you can't restore them?
[05:50:00] <twincest> warm fuzzy feeling.
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[05:52:34] <dclarke> oh hell....
[05:52:45] <dclarke> I burned a DVD master with mixed case label
[05:52:47] <dclarke> dammit
[05:52:56] <dclarke> ls -lap /media/Blastwave.org
[05:53:01] <dclarke> that .. will not fly
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[05:59:05] <Tpenta> bugger
[05:59:16] <dclarke> excuse me ?
[05:59:45] <dclarke> who did what Alan ?
[05:59:49] <Tpenta> an exclamation akin to "o dearie me I wish i hadn't done that"
[06:00:01] <Tpenta> referring to your prior statement
[06:00:04] <dclarke> and .. I'm about to go ahead with a build ( ND ) of snv_68 ...
[06:00:21] <dclarke> so hopefully all is well with that
[06:00:28] <Tpenta> :)
[06:00:52] <e^ipi> dclarke: hey, you're online
[06:01:04] <dclarke> as for my mixed case DVD label .. oh well ... burn burn burn again  .. all I need to do is modify /root/.mkisofsrc
[06:01:13] <e^ipi> set up some infrastructure crap ( bugster/bugzilla/whatever and an svn repo ) for polaris
[06:01:18] <dclarke> e_ipi : often in fact
[06:01:30] <e^ipi> i have a patch to get the old october code drop building with gcc4
[06:01:43] <dclarke> well done
[06:01:55] <dclarke> at the moment .. there should be new code relased in the CVS however
[06:02:00] <dclarke> Tom Riddle says so
[06:02:29] <g4lt-U60> thast means that the GPLv3ing of opensolaris is that much closer, e^ipi ;P
[06:03:19] * Tpenta dons asbestos underwear and awaits the flamefest
[06:03:49] <dclarke> I'm not even going there .. I have to get these new rge drivers built
[06:03:58] <Tpenta> :)
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[06:06:31] <e^ipi> i don't give a damn about tom, he's yet to produce anything since october
[06:06:38] <e^ipi> so for all intents & purposes, he's not part of the project
[06:06:47] <e^ipi> but right now, i have some code that needs a home
[06:07:14] <dclarke> so .. the one dragging his butt is me
[06:07:28] <dclarke> I have those ufsdumps from the polaris site here
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[06:08:24] <dclarke> Tpenta : do you see any reason why I could not go ahead with a build from http://dlc.sun.com/osol/on/downloads/b68/ ??
[06:09:09] <Tpenta> wasnt there an issue with something that had noit been tested in an open build, just a sec i need to check
[06:09:24] <e^ipi> honestly, if tom wants to rejoin the project, fantastic
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[06:09:35] <e^ipi> but with or without him we need a repo, and issue tracking
[06:09:50] <dclarke> at the moment I am tracking http://bugs.opensolaris.org/bugdatabase/view_bug.do?bug_id=6497363
[06:10:04] <dclarke> e_ipi : I can deal with Polaris tomorrow
[06:10:04] <dclarke> not tonight
[06:10:11] <e^ipi> yeah, no worries
[06:10:12] <dclarke> tomorrow I can get you a zone on a T2000
[06:10:23] <dclarke> but tonight I have to build on this appliance project here
[06:10:36] <Tpenta> 6576229 open-only build is broken (fwflash)
[06:10:37] <twincest> great, docs.sun.com is broken again.
[06:10:46] <dclarke> I have a low power appliace here and it needs to work
[06:10:53] <twincest> does anyone know if you can add additional stripes to a QFS filesystem and preserve the existing data?
[06:11:08] <dclarke> Tpenta : 6576229 open-only build is broken ??
[06:11:13] <dclarke> Tpenta :  what does that affect ?
[06:11:16] <Tpenta> yup
[06:11:22] <Tpenta> fixed in 69
[06:11:31] <Tpenta> well commited to fix in 69
[06:11:38] <Tpenta> richlowe was a part of the review for the fix
[06:12:04] <dclarke> State   	 7-Fix in Progress (Fix is in progress)
[06:12:09] <Tpenta> The recently added fwflash utility does not compile in external builds (open-source only), because it depends on <sys/ib/adapters/tavor/tavor_ioctl.h>, which is in usr/closed.
[06:12:10] <dclarke> Responsible Engineer  	  Stephen Lau
[06:12:34] <dclarke> ummm ..
[06:12:43] <dclarke> so my build will fail
[06:12:59] <Tpenta> most probably, I havent tried it
[06:13:09] <Tpenta> you'd need to talk to stevel or kupfer i think
[06:13:11] * dclarke sigh
[06:13:48] <dclarke> ya know what ?  I'm just going to skip the build .. save myself a pile of work and BFU from the archives provided
[06:13:56] <richlowe> It broke last friday
[06:13:57] <dclarke> that is not like me .. but I have to do what I can
[06:13:58] <Tpenta> :)
[06:14:02] <Tpenta> heh
[06:14:09] <dclarke> I'd rather get a clean build
[06:14:12] <richlowe> basically, someone integrated a change they didn't test adequately.
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[06:14:21] <dclarke> but .. 6576229 that says not tonight
[06:14:21] <Tpenta> yup
[06:14:23] <Tpenta> hello rich
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[06:14:29] <dclarke> hello rich
[06:14:32] <richlowe> Hey Tpenta, dclarke.
[06:14:55] <dclarke> I know that I am an outside guy .. but maybe I can sign on to test builds before release ?
[06:15:04] <dclarke> I do build often
[06:15:19] <dclarke> its a step by step process and it either build clean or doesn't
[06:15:32] <dclarke> a decent dual Opteron can crank it out in an hour or so
[06:15:35] <twincest> just pull from hg nightly and see if it builds :)
[06:15:43] <dclarke> yeah .. I guess
[06:15:52] <dclarke> I have done that in the past and it worked
[06:16:10] <dclarke> now I am back to releases in http://dlc.sun.com/osol/on/downloads/
[06:16:21] <Tpenta> actually I am thinking that the nightly that we run every nitght *should* do an open build as well
[06:17:17] <dclarke> I second that
[06:17:28] <dclarke> *should*
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[06:17:57] <dclarke> uh oh ..
[06:18:27] <dclarke> 6497363 says 10-Fix Delivered (Fix available in build) but it has never been tested ?!?!
[06:18:52] <dclarke> in the notes it says "I've not done any testing yet (still trying to get Solaris _installed_ on this system)"
[06:19:03] <dclarke> yikes ... so how can it be fixed .. ?
[06:19:04] <richlowe> that means the person *filing* it didn't test it.
[06:19:12] <dclarke> oh ..
[06:19:13] <richlowe> you're only seeing half the bug, at best.
[06:19:22] <richlowe> who knows what lurks in comments/evaluation.
[06:19:27] <dclarke> it looks like he tried to use the upstream ganiu driver from Masa M.
[06:19:28] <richlowe> except Alan, obviously.
[06:19:41] <dclarke> and I can tell you .. it does not work
[06:20:31] <dclarke> I'll try the BFU from the archives and see what happens but my hopes are less that high
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[06:25:13] <dclarke> hrmm .. of course .. to do that I need to burn a CDROM with everything on it
[06:25:15] <dclarke> because .. I have no etherent
[06:25:35] <dclarke> and then hook up an ide cable .. or .. use USB thumb stick or something
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[06:28:41] <dclarke> question .. can I build OpenSolaris ON with Studio 12 ?
[06:29:25] <g4lt-U60> why wouldn't you be able to?
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[06:31:08] <dclarke> dunno ..
[06:31:14] <dclarke> just was not sure that I could .. or not
[06:32:57] <dclarke> here comes and even dumber question ...
[06:33:16] * g4lt-U60 drum roll
[06:33:17] <dclarke> why wwould someone want to pkgrm the IPFilter that comes with Solaris 10 and then run the public domain versions ?
[06:33:35] <dclarke> just to get the 256 bit long aes256-cbc cipher option ?
[06:33:38] <g4lt-U60> NIH?
[06:33:43] <dclarke> isn't that included now ?
[06:33:53] <dclarke> what is NIH ?
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[06:34:02] <g4lt-U60> not invented here
[06:34:05] <Tpenta> considering that darren writes the solaris one, ....
[06:34:12] <Tpenta> it's the same author
[06:34:21] <dclarke> oh .. well
[06:34:42] <dclarke> there is some guy other there .. named Phil Dibowitz, and he maintains a IPFilter FAQ
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[06:34:56] <dclarke> for a while I have been telling him that ipfilter comes with Solaris 10 now
[06:35:04] <dclarke> you don't need to install it or build it
[06:35:07] <dclarke> it just works
[06:35:16] <Tpenta> darren reed (avalon) maintains ipfilter for sun as he works for us
[06:35:19] <dclarke> finally after months he says he will update the FAQ
[06:35:32] <dclarke> okay .. so then .. really
[06:35:43] <dclarke> it is "invented" internally
[06:35:48] <dclarke> and it s a top notch build
[06:35:53] <Tpenta> yup
[06:36:09] <Tpenta> and it's properly tested before shipping AND Sun support it
[06:36:11] <nrubsig> Tpenta: what does it mean when bugs.opensolaris.org says "bug is root caused" ?
[06:36:23] <dclarke> then the sources at http://coombs.anu.edu.au/~avalon/ip_fil4.1.13.tar.gz  and  http://coombs.anu.edu.au/~avalon/pfil-2.1.10.tar.gz are actually in Solaris 10 already
[06:36:26] <Tpenta> that we understand what caused the bug
[06:36:41] <Tpenta> yup
[06:37:05] <dclarke> have a look at this .. if you will
[06:37:09] <dclarke> http://www.colby.edu/personal/j/jaearick/sysadmin/sol10.ipfilter.upgrade
[06:37:21] <dclarke> How to replace Sun's Solaris 10 version of pfil/ipfilter with Darren Reed's public-domain release ???
[06:37:32] <dclarke> sort of .. redundant wouldn't you say ?
[06:37:37] <Tpenta> I might drop this to darren to get him to respond :)
[06:37:40] <nrubsig> dclarke: no
[06:37:51] <dclarke> thanks
[06:37:56] <nrubsig> dclarke: you can use a newer version than the one shipped with S10
[06:37:57] <dclarke> the FAQ seems misleading
[06:38:16] <Tpenta> let me check some patches
[06:38:25] <dclarke> nrubsig : I would think that a patch would be out to S10 users "real quick" if there was any issue
[06:38:41] <nrubsig> dclarke: that does not apply to _features_
[06:38:49] <dclarke> seriously .. I would notice a security alert and patch real quick
[06:38:56] * nrubsig throws a stone labelled "SCTP" after dclarke
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[06:39:08] * dclarke throws a dead fish back
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[06:39:19] <dclarke> I *know* what you mean
[06:39:19] * dclarke rolls eeyes
[06:39:20] * nrubsig throws a dead whale back
[06:39:26] <dclarke> really .. I do
[06:39:39] * nrubsig tasers dclarke
[06:39:42] * dclarke opens the Niagara falls flood gates on nrubsig
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[06:40:11] * dclarke lay on floor .. shivering from 50,000 volts
[06:40:18] <dclarke> damned fascists
[06:40:23] * nrubsig uses Starfire's bolts to roast dclarke's innards
[06:41:32] <nrubsig> (Starfire == http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starfire_%28comics%29#Teen_Titans_animated_series)
[06:42:32] <dclarke> umm .. you lost me .. I thought you meant the E10K in some way
[06:42:53] <nrubsig> bah
[06:43:17] <Tpenta> 125014-03 gives you ipfilter 4.1.9, but I'm not sure how the bug fixing relates
[06:43:55] <Tpenta> as bug fixing has been recent (118833-36 is a requirement)
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[06:45:10] <nrubsig> dclarke: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KwkAGg8MuAg
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[06:45:48] <dclarke> Tpenta : let me check my login server here ...
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[06:47:05] <dclarke> this .. does not tell me much
[06:47:10] <dclarke> debug1: Remote protocol version 2.0, remote software version Sun_SSH_1.1
[06:47:11] <dclarke> debug1: no match: Sun_SSH_1.1
[06:47:13] <dclarke> debug1: Enabling compatibility mode for protocol 2.0
[06:47:14] <Tpenta> you will shortly have mail dennis
[06:47:17] <dclarke> debug1: Local version string SSH-2.0-Sun_SSH_1.1
[06:47:20] <dclarke> version ... who knows
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[06:47:57] * dclarke looks for email flowing past the ol' sendmail
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[06:48:40] <dclarke> got it .. thanks for keeping me in the loop
[06:48:53] * Tempt 'sploits dclarke's sendmail bugs.
[06:48:56] <Tpenta> there is also the fact that I'm pretty sure that ipf is *not* publiuc domain like this guy says it is
[06:49:13] <dclarke> after three months I managed to get the FAQ writer to update his page to say that ipfilter is *included* in Solaris 10
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[06:49:30] <dclarke> Tempt :  I am fully patched
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[06:50:29] <dclarke> $ ls -lad /var/sadm/patch/125014*
[06:50:30] <dclarke> drwxr-xr--   2 root     root         512 Mar 18 23:00 /var/sadm/patch/125014-02
[06:50:32] <dclarke> drwxr-xr--   2 root     root         512 Jun 21 01:43 /var/sadm/patch/125014-03
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[06:50:50] <dclarke> I applied 125014-03 within 20 hours of its release I think
[06:51:05] <Tpenta> ROFLMFAO http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/07/04/gates_poll/
[06:51:07] <e^ipi> i wonder why this IBM box isn't trying to pull an IP address down and just bloody netboot already
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[06:53:52] <e^ipi> christ, my Mac can netboot properly, but the UNIX box meant to be deployed in enterprise environments, not so much
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[07:00:57] <dclarke> e_ipi : what seems to be the boggle ?
[07:01:10] <dclarke> machine is ARPing but not progressing ?
[07:01:17] <e^ipi> 0 > boot network:192.168.1.101,inetboot
[07:01:18] <e^ipi> BOOTP: Waiting 60 seconds for Spanning Tree
[07:01:20] <e^ipi> BOOTP: do-BOOTP-req failed: 0
[07:01:23] <e^ipi> BOOTP: do-BOOTP-req failed: 1
[07:01:26] <e^ipi> BOOTP: do-BOOTP-req failed: 2
[07:01:28] <e^ipi> BOOTP: do-BOOTP-req failed: 3
[07:01:30] <e^ipi> BOOTP: do-BOOTP-req failed: 4
[07:01:33] <e^ipi> BOOTP ERROR: BOOTP request failed, ABORT
[07:01:35] <e^ipi>         !20A80004 !
[07:01:39] <e^ipi> and it's not ARP-ing... i'm running rarpd in debug mode, it's not hearing any requests
[07:01:40] <dclarke> so no response is being received
[07:01:55] <dclarke> oh .. something more vile is occuring
[07:02:26] <e^ipi> indeed
[07:02:33] <dclarke> ummm .. what hardware ?
[07:02:39] <e^ipi> RS/6000
[07:02:44] <e^ipi> it's a 44p-170
[07:02:55] <dclarke> geez .. I tossed half a dozen of them out last year
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[07:03:02] <dclarke> full of RAM also
[07:03:15] <e^ipi> 64-bit POWER hardware?
[07:03:19] <dclarke> you would do better with an EFIKA really
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[07:03:26] <e^ipi> yeah, but i don't have one
[07:03:29] <dclarke> no no .. older style POWERPC
[07:03:43] <e^ipi> i have a G4 mini
[07:03:47] <dclarke> hrmmm .. I have a few EFIKA motherboards here still actually
[07:04:09] <dclarke> they may or may not actually work
[07:04:20] <e^ipi> I was hoping to get the kernel dispatched on this 44p
[07:04:26] <dclarke> the last box I saw of them .. 50% were DOA
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[07:04:42] <e^ipi> from the stories I hear of genesi, that doesn't surprise me really
[07:05:01] <dclarke> as you know .. they nearly bankrupted me earlier this year
[07:05:14] <dclarke> I'll never make that mistake again
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[07:06:54] <theRealballchalk> which service is ftp daemon running under in Solaris 10?
[07:06:58] <theRealballchalk> inetd?
[07:07:23] <dclarke> I think its independant .. controlled by SMF
[07:07:36] <dclarke> then again .. I'm not sure
[07:07:59] <jbk> inetd
[07:08:11] <theRealballchalk> thanks
[07:08:11] <jbk> but inetd itself is just a delegated restarted for smf
[07:08:12] <e^ipi> I have a bunch of pins on the processor for this 44p which are unattached... i think they're for JTAG
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[07:08:15] <jbk> in.ftpd
[07:08:20] <e^ipi> if so, fabulous
[07:09:55] <dclarke> JTAG would normally be a separate set of pins on the underside of the mobo ..
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[07:10:07] <dclarke> or somewhere near the first CPU
[07:10:13] <dclarke> but .. no promises
[07:10:14] <e^ipi> well, the CPU is on it's own daughterboard
[07:10:20] <e^ipi> which is where these pins are
[07:10:32] <dclarke> JTAG per CPU ?
[07:10:33] <e^ipi> ( like an IDE connector, but only 8 or so pins )
[07:10:35] <dclarke> odd
[07:10:40] <e^ipi> it's a single CPU machine
[07:10:43] <dclarke> yeah .. that sounds right
[07:10:58] <e^ipi> doesn't help me netboot the machine
[07:11:09] <e^ipi> but if it has them, it'll make things easier later
[07:12:59] 
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[07:14:12] <dclarke> wow .. cdrecord in Solaris Nevada is so not-up-to-date
[07:14:18] <dclarke> what is with that ?
[07:14:45] <dclarke> my local version is Cdrecord-ProDVD-Clone 2.01.01a11 from at least a year ago
[07:15:03] <dclarke> the latest rev in snv_64a is Cdrecord-ProDVD-Clone 2.01.01a10
[07:15:12] <dclarke> which .. won't do dual layer
[07:15:34] * dclarke mutters to self
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[07:17:23] <dclarke> since I am here muttering to my self ... has anyone else received their copy of Microsoft Windows Server 2008 Beta ?
[07:17:39] <e^ipi> i wouldn't take it if they paid me to
[07:17:41] <EchoBinary> i recieves someone elses copy by mistake
[07:17:42] <dclarke> I was going to install it and then see how it feels compared to Solaris Nevada
[07:18:03] * dclarke drags out a lurker with that
[07:18:49] <dclarke> EchoBinary :  did you start the install yet ?
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[07:19:52] <EchoBinary> i microwaved it
[07:19:55] <EchoBinary> so - yes
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[07:19:58] <e^ipi> heh
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[07:21:44] <pfn> dclarke, "how it feels compared to solaris?"
[07:21:53] <pfn> how the hell do you make such a comparison, it's so apples and oranges
[07:22:08] <dclarke> pfn : ever install Solaris ?
[07:22:17] <dclarke> is it "easy" ?
[07:22:22] <pfn> you mean the installer?
[07:22:24] <dclarke> obfuscated ?
[07:22:38] <dclarke> configuration requires talent and special knowledge ?
[07:22:42] <pfn> I've installed sxde 64a
[07:22:47] <pfn> ...
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[07:22:52] <dclarke> with Windows 2008 I expect to hit the same sort of stuff
[07:23:01] <pfn> and the last solaris I installed before that was like solaris 2.6
[07:23:32] * pfn shrugs
[07:23:39] <pfn> windows seems like a pretty straightforward install
[07:23:48] <dclarke> not to me
[07:23:57] <dclarke> I have not installed Windows in a long long long time
[07:24:13] <pfn> about the only departure from "consumer" windows is asking about AD and whether you want to use administrative or client TS
[07:24:19] <pfn> oh, and client licenses...
[07:24:21] <dclarke> in fact .. other than XP .. I have *never* installed one of the MS Server products
[07:24:34] <dclarke> what is AD ?
[07:24:35] <pfn> I've installed like win2k and that was about it...
[07:24:38] <pfn> activedirectory
[07:24:45] <pfn> msft's fucked up krb5+ldap implementation
[07:25:01] <dclarke> oh .. I heard that was a religious experience
[07:25:14] <dclarke> in that you feel the need to pray often
[07:25:21] <pfn> it works...
[07:25:59] <dclarke> I wouldn't know
[07:26:12] <e^ipi> why not just use krb&ldap?
[07:26:20] <pfn> because it's microsoft
[07:26:21] <pfn> :p
[07:26:24] <e^ipi> then you're not tied to a single platform
[07:26:26] <pfn> they don't do it "that way"
[07:26:27] <e^ipi> no, i mean their customers
[07:26:36] <pfn> because their customers are clueless
[07:26:45] <pfn> why else is windows the "most popular platform" in the world
[07:26:54] <dlg> cos everyone sucks
[07:27:34] <pfn> windows does have real krb5 support as well, it just seems like barely anyone ever uses it
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[07:30:23] <dclarke> hey wow ... looks like blocksize of 4096 bytes is no longer allowed in snv_64a
[07:30:28] <dclarke> I wonder when that happened
[07:31:04] <dclarke> newfs -v -s 4209030 -b 8192 -i 1024 -f 1024 -a 2 -C 1 -m 5 /dev/rdsk/c0d0s15
[07:31:08] <dclarke> that works
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[07:36:40] <EchoBinary> ive heard tell that there is zfs development underway or soon underway to allow groing of a zaidz zpool. can anyone verify this with links?
[07:37:03] <e^ipi> well, you can always grow a pool
[07:37:22] <EchoBinary> a raidz zpool?
[07:37:44] <e^ipi> you can't add drives to the raidz, but you can add them to the pool, thereby growing the pool
[07:37:51] <EchoBinary> ah
[07:37:52] <EchoBinary> ok
[07:38:11] <EchoBinary> but having the additional storage wont be protected by the raidz configuration
[07:38:20] <e^ipi> no
[07:38:27] <EchoBinary> so - will that ever be possible?
[07:38:44] <e^ipi> *shrug*
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[07:40:09] * EchoBinary doesnt understand why there hasnt been overwhelming demand for raid expansion features.  .. eventually  - space runs out...
[07:40:18] <EchoBinary> (in general - HW raid too)
[07:40:38] <dlg> expansion usually coincides with the purchase cycle
[07:40:55] <dclarke> at the moment I am more fascinated with the fact that 4096 byte blocks *are* still supported in Solaris x86
[07:40:56] <dlg> hw is only supported for X years, so you plan your storage buy to be fine for X years
[07:41:08] <dclarke> newfs -v -s 4209030 -b 4096 -i 1024 -f 1024 -a 2 -C 1 -m 5 /dev/rdsk/c0d0s14
[07:41:13] <dclarke> that actually works
[07:41:19] <dlg> thats an fs block size
[07:41:34] <dclarke> Omitting tables - file system performance may be impaired.
[07:41:38] <dclarke> fascinating
[07:42:39] <e^ipi> EchoBinary: you can also buy disks in 3-packs and expand that way
[07:42:54] <e^ipi> so your current raidz and the new raidz will be striped together
[07:43:17] <e^ipi> as an added bonus, you can have 2 disks fail then
[07:43:28] <e^ipi> although only if one is on one half and the other is on the other half
[07:43:50] <EchoBinary> i spent $$$ on 4 1TB disks...  and i happen to have a lot of data
[07:44:09] <EchoBinary> within the year..  im not shelling out $$$+1(2, 3) for a whole new set
[07:44:15] <EchoBinary> id rather just add a disk as i need it
[07:44:42] <dclarke> 1TB disks???
[07:44:46] <EchoBinary> yeah
[07:44:49] <dlg> dclarke: yep :)
[07:44:53] <EchoBinary> google: Hitachi 1TB
[07:44:56] <e^ipi> seems like a waste to me
[07:45:17] <EchoBinary> what seems like a waste?
[07:45:28] <e^ipi> more spindles = faster, plus 2 500G disks are cheaper than 1 1TB
[07:45:43] <dclarke> geez .. I have Seagate ST3146807LC here and that's big money Ultra320 SCSI and they are enough for me
[07:46:07] <dclarke> six of ST3146807LC on three controllers are blazing fast
[07:46:31] <dclarke> better yet .. pack them into a 3320 and you really have some great storage
[07:46:37] <dclarke> my opinion of course
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[07:47:24] <Tempt> yep
[07:47:31] <Tempt> Want to buy another 12?
[07:47:33] <Tempt> ;)
[07:47:52] <Doc> X5O!P%@AP[4\PZX54(P^)7CC)7}$EICAR-STANDARD-ANTIVIRUS-TEST-FILE!$H+H*
[07:47:55] <dclarke> already have two here
[07:47:56] * Doc waits...
[07:47:59] <dclarke> thanks anyways
[07:48:18] <dclarke> Doc : doing mail tests ?
[07:48:31] <Doc> nah.. just seeing if anyone is AV scanning their chat sessions :)
[07:48:37] <Tempt> heh
[07:49:02] * trochej wakes up
[07:49:11] <trochej> Drat, who trigered my chat AV scanner?
[07:49:30] <dclarke> on that note .. gotta step away
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[07:50:11] * dclarke extracts on-bfu-nightly-open-nd.i386.tar.bz2 and watches
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[08:00:53] <Tpenta> still around gman?
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[08:12:37] <tecNiKal> hi is there any irc client in solaris ?
[08:12:45] <Tempt> Yes.
[08:12:45] <e^ipi> i use xchat
[08:12:47] <e^ipi> or irssi
[08:12:48] <Tempt> irsii
[08:12:50] <Tempt> BitchX
[08:12:52] <tecNiKal> where to find it
[08:12:53] <razrX> irssi
[08:13:02] <e^ipi> at the moment, xchat connected to irssi-proxy
[08:13:13] <tecNiKal> e^ipi i couldnt find it on sunfreeware
[08:13:25] <e^ipi> so what, it compiles cleanly
[08:13:30] <Tpenta> i use gaim^H^H^H^H pidgin
[08:13:31] <Tempt> or blastwave.org
[08:13:32] <palowoda> Its on blastwave also.
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[08:13:45] <Tempt> and he's right, it does compile cleanly.
[08:14:13] <tecNiKal> Tempt blastwave have which irc client ?
[08:14:40] <razrX> Tpenta: speaking of gaim, i've noticed gaim from SUNWgnome-im-client keeps segfaulting since the last couple of SXCE builds
[08:15:07] <Tpenta> i have found that in some chats that there are some characters which cause a segv
[08:15:12] <Tempt> ircii, irsii, xchat
[08:15:21] <Tempt> gaim
[08:15:39] <Tpenta> There is also a bug in teh current code (b65 oinwards) that means that if you have jabber rooms set to auto-join, they onw'nt join and you cannot make it join them
[08:15:46] <razrX> can't even to get it running, segv's each time i try to load it
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[08:16:11] <razrX> running 67 now, witnessed it since i thing 65
[08:16:19] <razrX> think*
[08:17:26] <tecNiKal> 67 is not good as compared to 11/06
[08:17:37] <tecNiKal> i cannot even use my usb wireless that works fine with linux :s
[08:18:01] * Tpenta is currently upgradign to 68, but I know the gaim auto-join bug is still there
[08:18:30] <razrX> that's the weird part, have only setup gaim for msn, no jabber and auto-joining
[08:18:48] <Doc> yes. solaris sucks, we should all go and install linux
[08:18:58] <Doc> 'cos whilst linux sucks even more, it's at least open sourced!
[08:19:11] <e^ipi> linux doesn't suck... it's got drivers
[08:19:16] <razrX> lol Doc
[08:19:20] <e^ipi> sure, the scheduler & memory subsystem are a mess
[08:19:40] <e^ipi> and it locks up the kernel in a bunch of places where it's not needed
[08:20:12] <e^ipi> but it's got drivers for an obscure aftermarket serial board that nobody ever bought
[08:20:13] <Tempt> Even Linus admitted the only thing worth taking from Linux is the drivers.
[08:20:46] <Tempt> I mean, packet radio support is pretty popular, guys. AX.25, sound card plugged into a CB radio, you name it.
[08:21:09] <e^ipi> i remember the last time i heard of someone using that
[08:21:10] <Tempt> The you don't get to spend hours digging through the menus from "make menuconfig" when compiling a solaris kernel.
[08:21:11] <Doc> eipi: solaris has drivers for an obscure aftermarket serial board that nobody ever bought!
[08:21:15] <e^ipi> oh yeah... right... never
[08:21:24] <Doc> the problem is that that's _all_ solaris has drivers for :)
[08:21:42] <e^ipi> Doc: i've yet to run across a piece of hardware in my pile that i couldn't find drivers for
[08:21:45] * Tempt hides his aftermarket serial boards behind his back.
[08:21:48] <e^ipi> (alternative architectures notwithstanding )
[08:22:03] <Tempt> e^ipi: Oh, that's easy, most of my hardware is from Sun ;-)
[08:22:11] <trochej> e^ipi: I have few for you :)
[08:22:27] <e^ipi> most of mine is the cheapest bits i could find off the shelf @ the computer store
[08:22:30] <Atomdrache> I just bought an Ultra 80 today on eBay for better hardware compatibility :3
[08:22:39] <Atomdrache> (also, they're sweet)
[08:22:45] * Tempt applauds the U80 purchase.
[08:22:50] <Tempt> Is that going to sit next to your E450?
[08:22:55] <e^ipi> send it to me
[08:23:03] <Atomdrache> No, next to the B100 and ss20.
[08:23:04] <e^ipi> <-- i have no SPARCs and I must test
[08:23:13] <e^ipi> actually, what's schwartz's email address ?
[08:23:14] <Atomdrache> The e450 is strictly floor-mount =D
[08:23:25] <Tempt> e^ipi: bludge a zone from someone.
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[08:23:49] <e^ipi> naw, i need a machine i can actually break in fantastic ways
[08:23:50] <Atomdrache> Basically, right now I have a Dell.  Even for x86, it's crap.  OpenSolaris has a lot of weird hardware issues with this machine and it's crap, so I decided it best to replace it with something that'll work.
[08:24:05] <e^ipi> like tearing libc to shreds
[08:24:11] <Atomdrache> I think I'll pawn the Dell off for like $20.
[08:24:12] <Tempt> e^ipi: bludge an ldom?
[08:24:20] <Atomdrache> (Then the whole room will be SPARC.)
[08:24:24] <e^ipi> that might work
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[08:24:49] <Tempt> Man, talking about Linux kernel compiles, this is taking a long time on my SunPCi.
[08:24:56] <e^ipi> haha
[08:24:57] <e^ipi> i'll bet
[08:25:11] <g4lt-U60> 3?  or did you patch 2 yet?
[08:25:28] <Tempt> I remember when a compile took 1min40sec on my PII-233.
[08:25:54] <g4lt-U60> a spci3 is like a 1 GHz, innit?
[08:26:06] <Tempt> And Linux talking NFS to Solaris benchmarks at about 400kbyte/sec.
[08:26:33] <Tempt> THis is pci2pro
[08:26:38] <Tempt> 733Mhz
[08:27:11] <Atomdrache> e^ipi: OpenBoot offers awesome, fantastic ways to break your computer.
[08:27:22] <Atomdrache> forgot a space, oops.
[08:27:39] <e^ipi> how do you figure?
[08:27:49] <e^ipi> also, what?
[08:27:54] <Atomdrache> Direct access to memory.
[08:28:04] <Atomdrache> My reply is a little late:
[08:28:05] <Atomdrache> < e^ipi> naw, i need a machine i can actually break in fantastic ways
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[08:28:43] <edwardocallagha> hey
[08:28:53] <edwardocallagha> some one is using my nick ?
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[08:29:13] <e^ipi> all the @sun.com emails are firstname.lastname at sun dot com, correct?
[08:29:14] <EchoBinary> ?
[08:29:26] <cmihai> edwardocallagha: yes, you are.
[08:29:32] <EchoBinary> lolol
[08:29:52] <boyd> edwardocallagha: /msg nickserv help... look for the ghost command
[08:29:53] <cmihai> You're in #Nexenta.
[08:29:54] <g4lt-U60> Tempt, how the HELL did you get linsux on it?
[08:29:56] <cmihai> Go talk to yourself
[08:30:14] <edwardocallagha> lol
[08:30:23] <edwardocallagha> boyd:hey
[08:30:33] <boyd> Bah... google reader offline mode has problems going back online...
[08:30:36] <boyd> edwardocallagha: yo
[08:30:38] <Tpenta> hey boyd, likely to be in sydney on monday?
[08:30:45] <cmihai> If you're registered, you can kill yourself, I suggest you do that...
[08:30:48] <edwardocallagha> I found a bug in Nexenta that I am installing on my new hardware i got in Vic
[08:30:56] <boyd> Tpenta: No, I'm quitre likely to be in perth, though :)
[08:31:01] <g4lt-U60> cmihai, you now have a QOTD ;)
[08:31:06] <Tpenta> you'll see why when you get your sosug mail
[08:31:09] <cmihai> ;-]
[08:31:26] <edwardocallagha> the new installer that does ZFS boot trys to make a filesystem root but the is already /root mounted ...
[08:31:35] <boyd> Tpenta: hmm
[08:31:45] <boyd> DOH!!!
[08:32:00] <Tpenta> I am trying to organise a sound recording
[08:32:11] <Tempt> g4lt-U60: DOS boot, loadlin, nfsroot
[08:32:23] <boyd> Yay! pleasepleaseplease do that :)
[08:32:45] <boyd> Tpenta: I'm happy to do any format conversion that's desired
[08:32:45] <Tpenta> and even if i don't, IOSIG will on the following thursday night ;)
[08:32:50] <Tpenta> lol
[08:32:57] <g4lt-U60> cmihai, /cs info #solaris ;P
[08:33:06] <Tempt> boyd: Beer tomorrow arvo?
[08:33:21] <boyd> Tempt: Sounds good at this stage
[08:33:31] <Tempt> Could move it forward if required.
[08:33:31] <cmihai> g4lt-U60: w00t :-)
[08:34:42] <edwardocallagha> boyd:how do I reset my password ?
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[08:38:49] <edwardocallagha> Can some one kick my nick :p
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[08:41:38] <boyd> edwardocallagha: I think you need the pw for that...
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[08:41:41] <cmihai> edwardocallagha: that won't help.
[08:41:59] <boyd> edwardocallaghan: Yay!
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[08:42:07] <boyd> Boo
[08:42:14] <cmihai> edwardocallagha: go ask NickServ or something for help.
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[08:42:37] <Gman> Tpenta, there?
[08:42:42] <Tpenta> yes
[08:42:54] <Gman> Tpenta, got your message, but managed to delete the number :/
[08:43:27] * Gman was just coming on to get namefinder ;)
[08:44:01] <cmihai> If you know your password that is.
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[08:47:30] <seanmcg> So Gman is gonna give a talk on Monday, and three days later on the other side of the world he gives the same talk ?-)  Getting about the place there :)  (Just saw Tpenta's mail)
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[08:48:55] <edwardocallagha> Gman:Gmans on, hey Gman
[08:49:22] <boyd> Sydney is the guinea pigs
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[08:52:42] <Doc> hmm.. Monday. i might claim that i might turn up again
[08:52:55] <LeftWing> And then not? :P
[08:53:10] <Doc> longest i've lasted at a SOSUG meeting yet is about 3 minutes
[08:53:15] <LeftWing> haha
[08:53:21] <LeftWing> I'm still not convinced you exist. =)
[08:53:42] <Doc> given that i spent 2.5 minutes out of that 3 minutes talking to tpenta, he can probably confirm that i do :)
[08:53:53] <trochej> I love the experience of installing Windows XP
[08:54:10] <e^ipi> erm... okay
[08:54:13] <trochej> Next->Next->Ok->Next REBOOT Next->Ok
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[08:54:29] <LeftWing> And it all goes down hill from there.
[08:54:31] <trochej> Insert CD with driver for LCD
[08:54:38] <trochej> Next-> Next
[08:54:40] <trochej> HAng
[08:54:41] <trochej> Reboot
[08:54:45] <trochej> Try again
[08:54:50] <Doc> I prepose a new project called "New South Wales" in which we make OpenSolaris user experience more like Windows XP
[08:54:58] <LeftWing> lol
[08:55:28] <Doc> actually, Victoria or Queensland would probably be better names...
[08:55:52] <trochej> ROTFL
[08:56:13] <trochej> Installation of Chipset drivers failed. Success. Do you want to reboot now?
[08:56:17] <trochej> Maaan
[08:56:53] <e^ipi> o_O
[08:56:58] <boyd> Hehe: http://diveintomark.org/archives/2007/07/03/mother-faq-er
[08:57:04] <g4lt-U60> Doc, only problem is how will you get solaris users to actually follow a "you have moved the mouse, reboot?" prompt
[08:57:16] <trochej> e^ipi: What, never installed Laptop drivers for Windows?
[08:57:34] <Doc> hey, i didnt say i was going to actually work on it!
[08:57:55] <trochej> g4lt-U60: Yeah, Windows users are used to the fact, that when you actually move the mouse, systsme can reboot
[08:57:58] <trochej> :)
[08:58:05] <e^ipi> trochej: i've never installed windows
[08:58:22] <trochej> ROTFL, I have a CD with drivers for this laptop and it has about a dozen drivers.
[08:58:32] <e^ipi> i haven't even used that crap in almost 6 years
[08:58:42] <trochej> Each of them need to be installed separately and after every single one Windows need to be rebooted
[08:58:56] <trochej> e^ipi: Lucky you
[08:58:57] <trochej> :)
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[08:59:16] <boyd> trochej: And people complain about the Solaris instal experience
[08:59:16] <Gman> seanmcg, the same talk that i haven't yet written. darn.
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[08:59:33] <trochej> boyd: Nah, Solaris install is straightforward and nice.
[08:59:45] <boyd> trochej: *I* know that....
[08:59:50] <trochej> boyd: The problem Windows users have is actually that they NEED to read what's written on screen
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[09:00:10] <trochej> boyd: MS got ppl used to the fact that you can just click next and oyu'll probably get safe defaults
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[09:00:35] <seanmcg> Gman, just show up and start talking :)  Beer can help with that too.
[09:00:52] <boyd> trochej: Except for the fact that all the "next" clicking the world won't make you install the driver CD and run the Setup for each of those drivers
[09:01:00] <trochej> boyd: That yes
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[09:01:39] <trochej> boyd: But for that you actually can prepare yourself a special means of installing Windows. Scripted and all :)
[09:01:46] <boyd> Surely there must be a way for the HW mfgr to provide a CD that you insert at some point in the windows install and all their stuff just goes on
[09:01:53] <trochej> boyd: Of course
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[09:02:06] <trochej> boyd: And system admins in bigger companies know of it
[09:02:48] <boyd> So why the hell don't the hw mfgr use it to make the customer's life easier
[09:02:59] <trochej> boyd: But still, if you come to company that has all sort of different vendor computers
[09:03:21] <trochej> boyd: You need to prepare one cd for every single fucking one of them
[09:03:32] <boyd> It amazes me that there hasn't been a more comprehensive driver management strategy for windows developed
[09:03:55] <trochej> boyd: Well, many things in Windows world amaze me
[09:03:56] <trochej> :)
[09:04:13] <trochej> A touch pad driver?
[09:04:14] <trochej> A touch pad driver?
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[09:04:24] <trochej> God, anything, but a touch pad driver?
[09:06:33] <trochej> 5 down, 6 to go
[09:06:41] <trochej> Love this job, loooove it
[09:06:54] <trochej> A hotkey utility it is this time
[09:07:37] <trochej> boyd: Actually, with windows in corporations there is popular another way
[09:07:48] <boyd> Ghost?
[09:07:55] <trochej> boyd: Yup
[09:07:57] <trochej> ROTFL
[09:08:02] <trochej> I got CPU driver on the list
[09:08:05] <trochej> CPU driver
[09:08:07] <trochej> Kheeheeee
[09:08:14] <boyd> WTF does a CPU driver do?
[09:08:55] <trochej> I don't have an idea, but I wonder what does the job here, since the driver for CPU isn't installed yet
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[09:10:24] <Gman> seanmcg, going to bring a bunch of guinness :)
[09:10:31] <Gman> hopefully
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[09:13:10] <boyd> trochej: All the current code is running on the video card apparently
[09:13:45] <trochej> boyd: Probably
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[09:15:47] <Gman> hrm, having real issues with edgemail and punchin atm
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[09:16:24] <trochej> boyd: The real thing is, that for every 11 of drivers here I restarted the comp once
[09:16:45] <trochej> Which means that since istalling Windows some 20 minutes ago, I rebooted damn thing 11 times
[09:17:09] <boyd> You need to install the "Auto-reboot" driver... oh, wait, that's the windows kernel
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[09:17:39] <trochej> :)
[09:17:50] <estibi> y0
[09:17:55] <estibi> :)
[09:19:18] <trochej> elo
[09:19:41] <e^ipi> oy
[09:19:59] <trochej> Oh, there are Windows updates yet
[09:20:01] <trochej> Khehehe
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[09:21:44] <trochej> Yup
[09:21:49] <trochej> A reboot required
[09:21:50] <trochej> :)
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[09:24:35] <razrX> anyone know when firefox 2.0.0.4 will make it into a sxce build ?
[09:24:43] <e^ipi> when pigs fly through a frozen hell ?
[09:24:55] <e^ipi> or alternately, when someone gets around to it
[09:25:15] <razrX> obvious answers
[09:25:58] <razrX> just asking, that's all
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[09:57:32] <ofu> where can i find changelogs between zpool versions?
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[10:21:15] <asyd> \_o<
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[10:39:11] <timsf> morning all
[10:39:21] <phips> mornin
[10:40:09] <quasi> hey hey
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[10:43:53] <ofu> how do i enable intel speedstep?
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[10:44:54] <Fish> hello
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[10:52:02] <timsf> ofu, do you have frkit installed ?
[10:52:41] <timsf> if so, then powernowadm should allow you to switch frequencies if your bios supports it
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[10:53:03] <timsf> http://www.opensolaris.org/os/community/laptop/frkit
[10:53:40] <renihs> how are my changes to install a native solaris on a dell m90?
[10:56:19] * ofu installs frkit
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[11:00:01] <ofu> so powernowadm also works for intel cpus?
[11:00:21] <ofu> how can i power-down a disk?
[11:00:41] <palowoda> It just controls the cpu speed.
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[11:01:51] <palowoda> By the way is it still named powernowd?  I thought Casper wanted to rename it.
[11:02:13] <palowoda> Something closer to speedstep.
[11:02:14] <Tempt> Call it MOAR POWER!
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[11:02:52] <g4lt-U60> powernow is AMD's version of speedstep, so changing it to me more like speedstep is just asking for the same issue
[11:03:04] <palowoda> The UltraSparc Laptops use MOAR $$$$$.
[11:03:42] <palowoda> The frkit powernowd handled both AMD and Intel speedstep changes.
[11:03:45] <g4lt-U60> right, but they don't need extra craptacular processes to determine heat
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[11:04:59] <palowoda> It's not all that bad my 4800+ laptop runs at about 50C.  Now the Nvidia 7800GTX in the laptop is a hotplate sometime.
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[12:45:16] <PerterB> Excellent, docs.sun.com is completely borked. Again.
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[13:01:10] <phips> uber reliable, the docs site
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[13:10:15] <palowoda> gmake -j2
[13:10:24] <palowoda> opps
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[13:17:22] <quasi> gmake -j32
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[13:18:01] <palowoda> Home use quasi.  I can't afford the power bill.
[13:18:30] <quasi> palowoda: a t2000 doesn't use all that much power
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[13:18:46] <palowoda> I want more than one fp unit.
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[13:19:28] <palowoda> Mostly for multimedia work.
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[13:20:33] <palowoda> I was building gcc 4.2.1 RC1 anyways.
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[13:21:07] <quasi> I much prefer sun studio for performance
[13:21:47] <palowoda> I'm finding 4.2 isn't all that bad on the code it generates.  It's a slow compiler though.  But much improved on Solaris.
[13:23:06] <palowoda> It's strange though most of the memory intensive apps compiled with gcc 4.2 work better at -O rather than -O2/3.
[13:26:21] <palowoda> Actually on the sparc side I'd use sunpro.  Gcc is lacking there.
[13:27:07] <quasi> sunspro is getting a lot better on x86 as well
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[13:27:57] <palowoda> I swear zfs raid 0 is performing better on build 67 with a couple of sata drives.  Haven't put my finger on why yet.
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[13:29:37] <palowoda> Actually the sunpro on x86/x64 was better than the gcc 3.x 4.0 and 4.1 stuff.  It wasn't till recently I've seen some good code come off the 4.2.
[13:29:53] <palowoda> At least with amd64.
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[13:31:10] <palowoda> Heh I seen some putbacks related to sse4 instructions.  You got to wonder about that.
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[13:39:50] <palowoda> Wow cnn.com went flash on news videos.  You can amost watch them on Solaris now. Though it gets stuck on repeating the ads.
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[14:44:51] <leal> i have a machine that stays forever after the message: 'configuring devices'
[14:45:16] <timsf> What sort of machine it it ?
[14:45:25] <timsf> (and what OS ?)
[14:45:28] <leal> with -kd i can see: pseudo-device: lockstat0
[14:45:31] <leal> solaris 10 u3
[14:45:39] <leal> dell poweredge 850
[14:45:50] <leal> two sata discs, and a qla2340
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[14:46:23] <leal> with -kd the last message is: 'lockstat0 is /pseudo/lockstat@0'
[14:46:26] <timsf> Have you tried moddebug to determine where the hang is ?
[14:46:40] <leal> like i said before..
[14:46:41] <timsf> ah
[14:47:00] <timsf> dunno - be interesting to see if you could reproduce it on nv.
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[14:48:46] <leal> ok, but i need to configure a cluster... and i have installed that machine three times!
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[14:49:53] <leal> do you know what lockstat is, or any idea how to boot that server?
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[14:50:55] <axisys> i am using rcapd to cap memory use.. but it itself leaks memory.. what a irony.. anyone else experienced the same with rcap?
[14:51:02] <timsf> lockstat reports kernel lock and profiling statistics - I wonder could you exclude that module from loading ?
[14:51:18] <timsf> (whether that would be wise or not is another thing...)
[14:52:55] <leal> timsf: its a test... i will try. I think should be a patch for that already. So if i can start the server, i can update and it's done. i guess
[14:53:45] <leal> timsf: do you know if there is a procedure to apply patches in failsafe? i just use update manager... but if i could apply patches in failsafe, would be good in that situation!
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[15:01:52] <timsf> leal, sorry - not sure about patches
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[15:05:22] <Doc> hmm.. my opensolaris-discuss file has passed 100 megs.  should i read it, or just delete it?
[15:08:06] <quasi> not being subscribed works as well ;)
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[15:09:51] <axisys> anyone know of a workaround besides restarting rcapd to prevent memoryleaks by it?
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[15:11:19] <quasi> filing a bug with sun or waiting for U4?
[15:11:52] <axisys> quasi: two bugs on it already filed.. i guess i just wait now
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[15:34:06] <axisys> has anyone installed mysql solaris x86 5.0 pkg from mysql ? i am getting this error http://rafb.net/p/bXgTdU96.html
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[15:35:17] <sporq_> anyone here know how to install the enabler codes for enterprise backup 7.3.2 from the command line?
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[15:36:55] <trisk__> axisys: errno 13 is EACCESS, check if /var/tmp is okay
[15:37:04] <BaYGoN> hi all... i have a doubt about the instalation of Solaris 10 under Vmware. Can anyone help me?
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[15:37:40] <axisys> trisk__ : drwxrwxrwt   9 root     sys         1536 Jul  5 13:28 /var/tmp/
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[15:38:58] <BaYGoN> hi all... i have a doubt about the instalation of Solaris 10 under Vmware. Can anyone help me?
[15:39:24] <quasi> BaYGoN: I've done it before without issues
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[15:39:59] <BaYGoN> well... im not having a real issue... its working, but i have a question...
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[15:41:14] <BaYGoN> i choose 32bit machine type under vmware, but when i install solaris 10, its in 64bit mode... at any moment it ask me what version i want to install
[15:41:47] <BaYGoN> i want to install it in 32bit because vmware-tools doesnt install in 64bit
[15:42:51] <BaYGoN> i have an athlon x2. maybe it install itself in 64bit just because i have a 64bit processor? dont i have the choice?
[15:43:41] <leal> Somebody knows howto install patches in failsafe mode? I mean, using command line tools to download and apply the patches..
[15:44:38] <Triskelios> BaYGoN: Solaris x86 can always boot in either 64-bit or 32-bit mode, just change the boot options
[15:45:00] <BaYGoN> do i have to manually edit grub.conf?
[15:45:09] <quasi> leal: you could download the patch bundle from sunsolve and apply it
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[15:45:54] <BaYGoN> strange thing is, the boot menu say "solaris 10 'something' x86"... i suppose it should be 32bit, right?
[15:45:55] <Triskelios> BaYGoN: yes if you want to make it permanent
[15:46:21] <Triskelios> BaYGoN: no, x86 can be either amd64 or x86, it autodetects...
[15:46:26] <leal> quasi: thanks, but how i do that? i have just used the updatemanager... a patche bundle is 'one' archive?
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[15:46:39] <leal> quasi: do you have some link to that procedure?
[15:46:58] <quasi> leal: yeah, it is one tar file
[15:47:01] <Triskelios> BaYGoN: make a copy of the current menu.lst entry and remove $ISADIR/ from the paths
[15:47:06] <quasi> leal: see the README inside it
[15:47:07] <iron_angel> Is there a good performance comparison for later-model Sun framebuffers available?
[15:47:12] <Triskelios> BaYGoN: that will be 32-bit only
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[15:47:24] <iron_angel> (FFB, AFB, IFB (lite, lite+), GFB)
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[15:48:09] <BaYGoN> <Triskelios>: thnx... ill give it a try... its my first time with solaris, but i use linux for quite a while...
[15:48:39] <leal> quasi: ok, but is just access http://www.sun.com and search for 'patch bundle'?
[15:48:57] <quasi> leal: sunsolve.sun.com
[15:49:34] <Tempt> iron_angel: Yes. They're all slow as a wet week.
[15:49:35] <quasi> leal: http://sunsolve.sun.com/pub-cgi/show.pl?target=patches/patch-access
[15:49:48] <Tempt> iron_angel: Except the XVR-4000. Apparently, that kicks.
[15:50:23] <Tempt> leal: So, what was your SANbooting fix?
[15:50:31] <leal> quasi: thanks a lot! i have one machine that after the install of sol 10 u3 does not boot... i think there is a patch for that...
[15:50:32] <iron_angel> Tempt: well, heh. Not all that helpful unless I can just bung an average PCI graphics card in :P
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[15:50:48] <leal> Tempt: was not. :)
[15:50:49] <Tempt> iron_angel: XVR-600 or XVR-1200 is the pick for PCI Sun framebuffers.
[15:50:57] <Tempt> leal: Used the internal disks?
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[15:51:05] <iron_angel> I'm trying to decide whether to use an Elite3D m6, XVR-500 or Expert3D in my Ultra 80 (I have those 3).
[15:51:16] <iron_angel> I have a broken XVR-1000, but that doesn't help.
[15:51:17] <Tempt> iron_angel: XVR-500.
[15:51:28] <quasi> leal: it does seem to want a support contract
[15:51:32] <BaYGoN> <Triskelios>: this is what i have in the PATH variable: "/usr/sbin:/usr/bin:/usr/openwin/bin:/usr/ucb"... i didnt found any $ISADIR... echoing it returns nothing
[15:51:44] <leal> Tempt: i have made some progress... the old installation (u2) was causing problems to the new installer... i was making a initial install...
[15:52:28] <leal> but looking the disc... the old information was there... so, i dd if=/dev/zero to the disc, and did the installation again... now the hba is working...
[15:52:38] * iron_angel nodnods.
[15:53:07] <leal> but the system is frozen in "configuring devices'... i will try to use the patch bundle, like quasi said to me.
[15:53:08] <iron_angel> Thanks for the info, then. 500 in the U80, then put the 1000 in the U60 once I finally get a replacement.
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[15:55:00] <leal> quasi: sunsolve?
[15:55:30] <Tempt> iron_angel: Sounds good. Try to track down an XVR-600/1200 if you want to up the performance a little.
[15:55:43] <Tempt> leal: Man, you're having a rough run on this one.
[15:56:05] <Tempt> leal: Blame EMC. Everyone else does.
[15:56:17] <quasi> leal: the patch bundle
[15:56:32] <leal> Tempt: yes... but the problem is that sol 10 u2 works without problems! :)
[15:56:51] <Tempt> leal: Blame EMC anyway.
[15:57:14] <leal> quasi: ok.. i'm looking for it yet. :) i just log in, but do not find the 'patch bundle'...
[15:57:25] <Tempt> leal: He means "Recommended Cluster", I believe.
[15:57:36] <iron_angel> Tempt: yeah, I've been looking... Prices on eBay seem to hover around $300-750, which is way too much, but maybe I'll get lucky. Heck, I got the XVR-500 for $9.
[15:57:56] <Tempt> iron_angel: Oh, I got mine as a discard. Someone ordered them with some 890s by accident.
[15:58:45] <iron_angel> heh!
[15:59:07] <leal> Tempt: "Recommended Cluster" needs a contract support?
[15:59:08] <Tempt> iron_angel: I only wish I could have left the XVR-600 and kept the 890! ;)
[15:59:14] <Tempt> leal: Yes.
[15:59:17] <iron_angel> No kidding!
[15:59:22] <Tempt> leal: Or at least a contract login.
[15:59:34] <Tempt> leal: Or at least someone's contract login.
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[15:59:53] <Tempt> iron_angel: New 2.1Ghz US-IV+ really kicks.
[16:00:31] <nachox> Tempt: were you able to get rootnfs working?
[16:00:41] <Tempt> nachox: Yes!
[16:00:46] <BaYGoN> Hi all. I have just installed Solaris 10 under Vmware 5.5.3, but its loading a 64bit kernel. I want it to be 32bit, but i dont know how. Can anyone help me?
[16:00:57] <Tempt> nachox: need to go root=/dev/nfs rw instead of passing rw as an nfs option
[16:00:58] <leal> Tempt: So, no luck to me to apply that bundle in failsafe mode?? how can i boot that machine...
[16:00:59] <nachox> Tempt: it was only the rw
[16:01:01] <iron_angel> Tempt: I'd like to see them build a workstation based on that, just for kicks :P
[16:01:06] <nachox> ?
[16:01:19] <Tempt> nachox: Got slackware sorta working, trying gentoo at the moment. Running gentoo an my 880 ;)
[16:01:28] <SYS64738> hi Tempt
[16:01:30] <iron_angel> I'd like to get hold of that sort of hardware. We're mostly AMD64/x86 at work, with a few US-IIIcu floating around.
[16:01:39] <iron_angel> All v210/280r/Blade 2000.
[16:01:50] <Tempt> nachox: So I booted with rw, rebuild the ld cache and then rebooted and it was fine.
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[16:01:52] <nachox> Tempt: what ever suits you, gentoo sucks imho
[16:01:59] <BaYGoN> Gentoo user here too! :)
[16:01:59] <Tempt> iron_angel: Oh, man, that'd make a workstation
[16:02:06] <Tempt> nachox: Gentoo sucks, but for nfsroot - perfect
[16:02:17] <Tempt> nachox: Just untar one tarball and it boots to a prompt first time.
[16:02:17] <SYS64738> gentoo rox
[16:02:28] <nachox> Tempt: so i was right about the ldconfig stuff?
[16:02:36] <Tempt> nachox: I'm not a gentoo ricer, but the lack of "installer" makes it easy to roll out.
[16:02:41] <aruiz> Tempt, why do you think that Gentoo sucks?
[16:02:44] <Tempt> nachox: Yep, was that stupid cache thing.
[16:02:52] <BaYGoN> it has an installer since 2006.0, tempt
[16:02:55] <nachox> Tempt: i rock :)
[16:02:57] <Tempt> aruiz: Encourages mess. Annoys me.
[16:03:04] <Tempt> aruiz: Reminds me of Linux too much.
[16:03:18] <Tempt> nachox: Yep, you're the local linux guru for the moment.
[16:03:23] <aruiz> Tempt, well, don't tell anyone, but Gentoo is based on Linux
[16:03:32] <Tempt> Why am I not surprised that #linux told me to go DIAF but #opensolaris had the answers?
[16:03:43] <Tempt> aruiz: Horrible, isn't it? :)
[16:03:49] <aruiz> Tempt, you should be more respectful about that :P
[16:04:01] <leal> Tempt: i'm downloading the file (265MB), the "contract" is asked when i will try to apply it?
[16:04:04] <Tempt> BaYGoN: I thought the whole idea of gentoo was to put it together without an installer?
[16:04:12] <aruiz> Tempt, even if I think that you suck too, I shouldn't tell you dude! I may hurt your feelings :)
[16:04:13] <Tempt> leal: Never seen that one before.
[16:04:28] <aruiz> may/might*
[16:04:38] <Tempt> aruiz: Oh, we like to rag on things around here. Just ask LeftWing about EMC NAS storage!
[16:04:49] * LeftWing spits.
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[16:05:01] <BaYGoN> well.. yes... and i still do it the old way, stage 1 installation. But since 2006, it has a built-in GUI installer
[16:05:29] <Tempt> BaYGoN: Well, I couldn't use an installer for this job if I tried. Being able to untar something and boot it made my life easier.
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[16:05:31] * iron_angel is weird, still uses stage 1/3 most times :)
[16:05:41] <BaYGoN> Agreed ;)
[16:05:44] <Tempt> leal: pastebin the messages?
[16:05:59] <BaYGoN> i've tried it once... its a real pain in the a...
[16:06:02] <Tempt> BaYGoN: I installed SunOS by hand recently and it was most rewarding.
[16:06:24] <BaYGoN> u mean, solaris?
[16:06:34] <Tempt> No.
[16:06:35] <Tempt> SunOS.
[16:06:45] <BaYGoN> oh
[16:06:46] <Tempt> I think the retronaming would call it Solaris 1.1.4
[16:07:06] <Tempt> SYS64738: How's that squid going?
[16:07:21] <SYS64738> Tempt, it make some strange thing
[16:07:34] <Tempt> SYS64738: Do tell.
[16:07:46] <SYS64738> the first client that use it notice that the squid is very slow
[16:07:49] <Tempt> iron_angel: So you're using a U80 at the moment? 4x480Mhz?
[16:07:52] <BaYGoN> Tempt: i see u r into SunOS for quite a while. I have adoubt about choosing between 32bit and 64bit. Solaris 10
[16:08:00] <SYS64738> after some seconds it runs faster
[16:08:02] <leal> Tempt: the system stops after the hostname message, and 'Configuring devices'.
[16:08:24] <Tempt> BaYGoN: Take 64 if your hardware can handle it. No reason to boot 32bit unless you've got an old driver with no 64 bit release.
[16:08:25] <SYS64738> it's like when someone awake someother
[16:08:28] <iron_angel> Tempt: 3x450. It arrived with one broken :(
[16:08:31] <leal> Tempt: with -kd option, i can see that the last module load was drv/lockstat
[16:08:33] <Tempt> leal: No, I mean the contract thing.
[16:08:40] * LeftWing sleeps.
[16:08:43] <Tempt> iron_angel: Damn. Bet you're on the hunt for a replacement.
[16:08:44] <Tempt> LeftWing: Goodnight!
[16:08:57] <iron_angel> it's in the mail, along with a Blade 2000 that I scored on the cheap.
[16:09:10] <Tempt> iron_angel: Oh, nice, what did you get in the B2000?
[16:09:15] <iron_angel> I have a few others, too. 2 U60, one working one not, a U10 and a U2.
[16:09:20] <leal> Tempt: i'm downloading the bundle without one.
[16:09:22] <BaYGoN> Tempt: Actually, im using Vmware to install Solaris 10.  I want it to be 32bit, because vmware-tools does not install in 64 bit mode.
[16:09:28] <Tempt> SYS64738: laggy DNS?
[16:09:36] <leal> Tempt: i just log in.
[16:09:41] <iron_angel> Tempt: 2x US-IIICu 900, 4096MB, XVR-1000 and XVR-500, 2x 73GB, DVD, no OS.
[16:10:04] <Tempt> leal: And it says no 10_Recommended for you?
[16:10:07] <SYS64738> Tempt, only the first connection of the morning is slow, then it goes very fast all day
[16:10:15] <Tempt> iron_angel: Hmm, 4096Mb RAM is pretty good going.
[16:10:32] <iron_angel> yah, that's what I thought!
[16:10:38] <Tempt> SYS64738: Very odd. Is the machine busy? low on RAM? might be paged out?
[16:10:49] <leal> Tempt: 10_x86_Recommended.zip
[16:10:52] <Tempt> iron_angel: I've only got 2Gb in my workstation.
[16:11:03] <iron_angel> Most of mine have 2GB, too, except this Opteron box.
[16:11:05] <SYS64738> it' a xeon dual core with 4GB of ram and only that squid zone
[16:11:19] <Tempt> SYS64738: Make sure all your powersaving is disabled.
[16:11:24] <iron_angel> Well, the U10 has 768MB, but then, it's a U10.
[16:11:29] <SYS64738> interesting
[16:11:46] <Tempt> iron_angel: I'm looking forward to upgrading my big beast here to 28Gb.
[16:11:48] <BaYGoN> Tempt: How do i make it load in 32bit mode?
[16:11:54] <Tempt> leal: That's the one you want.
[16:12:09] <Tempt> BaYGoN: If you boot in vmware and it doesn't provide a 64 bit CPU emulation, you'll just get 32bit.
[16:12:44] <leal> Tempt: that's a affirmation or a question? :)
[16:12:50] <iron_angel> yowza!
[16:12:57] <Tempt> leal: an affirmation.
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[16:13:20] <Tempt> iron_angel: We take memory seriously around here ;)
[16:13:20] <CSFrost> Tempt, which box do you run Sunray's off?
[16:13:41] <iron_angel> The Opteron mobo here can take 32GB if I really wanted to, but yowch, that's expensive.
[16:13:45] <BaYGoN> Tempt: Vmware has direct acess to my cpu... an Athlon 64 X2. But i want it to run in 32bit mode. Can i force it to run in 32bit?
[16:13:48] <Tempt> CSFrost: The daktari. It has the RAM to waste on browsers and such things.
[16:14:08] <leal> Tempt: hope i can apply it... maybe there is some 'subscription' to use it...
[16:14:09] <SYS64738> BaYGoN, what host os ?
[16:14:14] <Tempt> BaYGoN: There will be a boot parameter, but you'll have to get one of the x86 guys here to answer that one or check the docs.
[16:14:19] <BaYGoN> Gentoo linux 64 bit
[16:14:20] <CSFrost> Tempt, questions for 200 Tempt, "What is, the
[16:14:26] <CSFrost> "daktari"
[16:14:28] <Tempt> leal: No. Once you've got a recommended cluster, you're fine
[16:14:36] <Tempt> leal: This isn't RedHat.
[16:14:41] <leal> Tempt: :)))
[16:14:52] <Tempt> CSFrost: 880. The 880 was named Daktari, the 880z was named Nandi.
[16:15:04] <CSFrost> ah, hehe
[16:15:07] <Tempt> CSFrost: I understand that "Daktari" means "Doctor" in some African language.
[16:15:20] <BaYGoN> Hey x86 guys  :D  whats the boot parameter to force my Solaris 10 installarion to run in 32 bit mode?
[16:15:31] <BaYGoN> installtion*
[16:15:34] <leal> Tempt: i think if there is a solution to that hardware configuration, is in this bundle... if not, well better not think that way...
[16:15:35] <BaYGoN> gee
[16:15:36] <CSFrost> I just have 4 clients, I am trying to decide what to put them on, yet I have no 880's :-)
[16:15:36] <Triskelios> BaYGoN: I already gave it to you
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[16:15:55] <Tempt> leal: The only limit point is your sunsolve login. Btw, grab a copy of "pca" (google solaris pca patch) and that'll automate your patch deployment and give you a current patchset.
[16:16:02] <BaYGoN> Triskelios> : yeah... i didnt found any $ISADIR in my paths
[16:16:10] <Tempt> leal: Including multithreaded download to work around slow downloads from sunsolve
[16:16:25] <Tempt> CSFrost: Thinking of going SunRay?
[16:16:32] <BaYGoN> this is what i have in the PATH variable: "/usr/sbin:/usr/bin:/usr/openwin/bin:/usr/ucb"
[16:16:34] <Triskelios> BaYGoN: ah, is Solaris 10 still using multiboot?
[16:16:45] <CSFrost> Tempt, I have 4 Sunray's, I just haven't hooked them up yet
[16:16:49] <Tempt> CSFrost: You should go 880. Good, solid machines, hardware you can trust, theft resistant ...
[16:16:58] <Triskelios> BaYGoN: (sorry, used to Nevada here)
[16:17:19] <BaYGoN> this is what i have in the PATH variable: "/usr/sbin:/usr/bin:/usr/openwin/bin:/usr/ucb"
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[16:17:24] <CSFrost> Tempt, I just would have to move it soon, I am in NY still.. so I shouldn't buy too much large hardware here.
[16:17:38] <BaYGoN> <Triskelios>: it loads a multiboot kernel, yes
[16:18:04] <Triskelios> BaYGoN: okay, in Nevada that changed so grub does the selection by itself
[16:18:07] <Tempt> BaYGoN: If it's anything like SPARC, just pass it a different kernel to boot. I think you want " /platform/i86pc/kernel/unix"
[16:18:08] <BaYGoN> <Triskelios> heres the kernel loading command in grub: kernel /platform/i86pc/multiboot
[16:18:15] <Triskelios> BaYGoN: http://docs.sun.com/app/docs/doc/817-1985/6mhm8o5pq?a=view is for s10
[16:18:17] <CSFrost> Tempt, a U80 should be able to handle 4 clients right?
[16:18:24] <Berny__> hey does anyone know what the latest libc patch for sol10 was?
[16:18:27] <Tempt> CSFrost: That gives them a CPU each!
[16:18:28] <Triskelios> BaYGoN: pass kernel/unix after multiboot
[16:18:29] <Tempt> CSFrost: LUXURY!
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[16:18:51] <Triskelios> BaYGoN: "kernel /platform/i86pc/multiboot kernel/unix"
[16:18:52] <BaYGoN> <Triskelios>: ill try that now... thnx
[16:18:53] <Tempt> CSFrost: A lot of sunray deployments have over 10 clients per CPU, so you'll be fine.
[16:19:07] <Tempt> CSFrost: The SunRay software adds almost no overhead CPUwise.
[16:19:18] <Tempt> SYS64738: Check your power settings yet?
[16:19:31] <SYS64738> Tempt, I must look in the bios
[16:19:36] <Tempt> SYS64738: Or the OS.
[16:19:37] <SYS64738> I'll do it tomorrow
[16:19:42] <SYS64738> now I am at home
[16:19:43] <CSFrost> Tempt, I just happen to have the box here, it wasn't being used, so I figured it was either the U80 or one of the U60's
[16:20:02] <Tempt> SYS64738: I remember last time I was on a Sun training course the default settings on the workstations would spin down the disks and it was most aggravating. I just pkgrm'd all the power crap.
[16:20:21] <SYS64738> ah
[16:20:24] <SYS64738> and what can I do ?
[16:20:34] <Tempt> CSFrost: Go the 80. If you're going to actually run anything heavy (err, like a browser!) you'll appreciate the extra grunt and RAM.
[16:20:55] <Tempt> SYS64738: Just make sure Solaris doesn't have *any* powersaving enabled, and see if that helps. If it doesn't, check your BIOS.
[16:21:01] <BaYGoN> <Triskelios>: ok... now it says 32bit in the first boot line. Thank you very much
[16:21:17] <Triskelios> np
[16:21:22] <BaYGoN> it boots way faster too :D
[16:21:24] <CSFrost> Tempt, what's funny is most people use these for powersavings, it's just me at home, and I'll be powering 4 with the U80 then :-p
[16:21:29] <iron_angel> Tempt: out of curiosity, it's not possible to run a faster CPU than 450MHz in a U60/80, is it?
[16:21:44] <Tempt> I believe the U80s could take 480Mhz, but don't quote me on that.
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[16:22:08] <Tempt> I'd probably move to a US-III or better machine rather than quibbling the extra Mhz.
[16:22:29] <iron_angel> Yah, I think that's what I'll do - move to the B2000 as my main Solaris machine.
[16:22:35] <CSFrost> yep, I would also, if these boxes didn't come so cheap (free)
[16:22:42] <iron_angel> Make the U80 a secondary and the U60 a server or the like.
[16:23:22] <Tempt> You can always use one machine as the sunray server and to provide window management and basic tools and export the display from another machine for heavier apps.
[16:23:48] <Tempt> CSFrost: It's hard to talk about power savings on the desktop with heavy backend infrastructure.
[16:24:37] <Tempt> CSFrost: "Since I moved to SunRays, my desktop power consumption has fallen to 80W for four heads. However, my server eats 1000W."
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[16:24:44] <aska> hi
[16:24:51] <Tempt> aska: Hi.
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[16:25:14] <FrostCS> wrong terminal again.. tsk tsk
[16:25:35] <Tempt> SunAlerts: 1. Solaris[TM] printing doesn't work with Digi AccelePort XEM serial ports.
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[16:25:42] <Tempt> I wonder how long it took for that to surface.
[16:25:45] <FrostCS> yea Tempt, but I guess this will get some laptops out of my office.. :-)
[16:26:02] <Tempt> FrostCS: You could cut your laptop collection in half, down to 16.
[16:26:31] <leal> Tempt: pca seems to be a very good tool. Can i use it without a direct connection to internet (proxy)?
[16:27:13] <Tempt> leal: I believe so.
[16:27:14] <FrostCS> Tempt, I need to anyway, mainly because my eyesight is getting so bad, I need to upgrade my lcd's already
[16:27:22] <aska> give me solaris10 (x86) a way to  read the temperature from my harddisks?
[16:27:26] <Tempt> leal: You can also have it download for you and re-use the packages.
[16:27:29] <FrostCS> I already decided it was time to lose the T221's last night.
[16:27:30] <Tempt> FrostCS: See you tomorrow.
[16:27:43] <Tempt> FrostCS: Get some nice, big, bright displays.
[16:27:50] <Tempt> FrostCS: Connect them to SunRays and be happy.
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[16:28:17] <Tempt> leal: How is that patch cluster going? Installing nicely?
[16:28:33] <FrostCS> Will sunray drive a HDMI display through dvi-> hdmi connector?
[16:28:42] <leal> Tempt: it does. i see in the installation page... it uses wget.
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[16:29:03] <leal> Tempt: not a real internet speed. :) it's downloading...
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[16:29:10] <BaYGoN> Can anyone recommend me a good tutorial about Solaris 10? I'm a complete noob at it.. :D
[16:29:17] <Tempt> leal: Seriously, run it in multithreaded mode.
[16:29:30] <FrostCS> docs.sun.com  and bigadmin baygon
[16:29:33] <BaYGoN> Also, a good reading with certification in mind
[16:29:40] <BaYGoN> ok thnx
[16:29:41] <Tempt> leal: I found 32 concurrent downloads to be optimal. SunSolve bandwidth limits each connection, but nothing stops you pulling at least 20Mbit out concurrently.
[16:29:47] <iron_angel> Oh yeah, while I think about it - is there a good doc on setting up Xinerama with Solaris 10 or Nevada on SPARC?
[16:30:00] <Tempt> iron_angel: That's easy.
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[16:30:13] <Tempt> iron_angel: Get your two displays working and just add the magic entry to the commandline.
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[16:30:26] <SYS64738> Tempt, how can I remove a zfs snapshots ?
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[16:30:36] <SYS64738> (without the s)
[16:30:47] <Tempt> SYS64738: zfs destroy $ZPOOL/$FILESYSTEM@$SNAPSHOT
[16:30:54] <SYS64738> thanks
[16:31:04] <iron_angel> what I'm not so clear on, is how to persuade XSun to use the other framebuffer. Lots of references to SMF config stuff, but I've poked down a fair few blind alleys.
[16:31:13] <Tempt> SYS64738: eg, to destroy the snapshot "delme" on mypool/myfs, zfs destroy mypool/myfs@delme
[16:31:20] <Tempt> iron_angel: Let me grab that for you.
[16:31:20] <leal> Tempt: i do not know how to do that, im downloading with browser, needs a authorization and i could not use wget ...
[16:31:42] <Tempt> leal: wget not working with your proxy?
[16:31:53] <Tempt> leal: create a .wgetrc with your proxy logins
[16:32:25] <Tempt> iron_angel: /usr/dt/config/Xservers
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[16:33:02] <leal> Tempt: no, authorization to download from sun.
[16:33:21] <CSFrost> brb, afk
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[16:34:10] <Tempt> leal: Aah, there is a pca option to add your auth details in
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[16:34:23] <leal> Tempt: i think we are talking about different things... :)
[16:34:42] <Tempt> leal: edit wgetrc to add your proxy auth. Pass commandlines to pca to add your sunsolve auth.
[16:34:51] <leal> Tempt: i'm downloading the Recommended cluster... i will use pca after that... the bundle is the first shot...
[16:35:23] <Tempt> iron_angel: rip out the line they provide and add your own
[16:35:56] <leal> Tempt: ok, i will do that. but now the cluster is almost done. so, i will try to use it, and after that i will try the pca.
[16:36:27] <Tempt> iron_angel: /usr/openwin/bin/Xsun -dev /dev/fbs/(your fb) -dev /dev/fbs/(your other one) -left|right +xinerama
[16:36:46] <iron_angel> Tempt: oh, cool, so I can dispense with the /usr/X11/bin/Xserver stuff?
[16:36:59] <Tempt> iron_angel: That might not be exactly right but close enough to get you on the road. I'd probably drop the machine to a commandline login and run Xsun by hand until I got it right.
[16:37:06] <Tempt> /usr/openwin/bin/Xsun --help will educate.
[16:37:41] <Tempt> iron_angel: You can apparently configure it all with the new-fangled way, but I just took my working config from solaris 9 and dumped it on 10.
[16:37:49] <Tempt> iron_angel: I am lazy sysadmin!
[16:38:00] <Tempt> iron_angel: Just make sure you back it up when you get it right because upgrades may overwrite that file.
[16:38:07] <iron_angel> cool. Yeah, I was trying to find the new way, and kept tripping over stuff.
[16:38:21] <iron_angel> copying it to /etc/dt/config should work, nicht?
[16:38:24] <Tempt> iron_angel: I wasted 15 minutes looking at the new way and then gave up in favour of tradition.
[16:38:32] <iron_angel> I did that to tweak some stuff on Sol 8...
[16:43:50] <Tempt> Got quiet in here all of a sudden.
[16:43:55] <iron_angel> heh, indeedery.
[16:44:10] <iron_angel> I was KVM-shopping :P
[16:44:15] <Tempt> haha
[16:44:27] <Tempt> I'm finishing my gentoo install.
[16:44:33] <Tempt> Linux on ZFS
[16:44:37] <Tempt> heh.
[16:44:38] <iron_angel> All I want is a KVM that can use Sun, USB, PS/2 and ADB. And I don't wanna pay $30k for it :/
[16:44:49] <Tempt> iron_angel: blackbox servswitch
[16:45:05] <Tempt> iron_angel: But you're probably screwed on ADB.
[16:45:15] <Tempt> iron_angel: You can get ADB<>PS/2 adapters
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[16:45:27] <iron_angel> yah, the blackbox stuff is nice. Expensive as all hell though!
[16:45:27] <Triskelios> ADB to serial adapters exist, no?
[16:45:32] <Triskelios> ah
[16:45:32] <iron_angel> yeah, I think so.
[16:45:47] <iron_angel> Also, ADB might not be a major issue.
[16:45:49] <Tempt> What have you got that's old enough to use ADB that isn't old enough to warrant an upgrade?
[16:46:06] <iron_angel> I can run the Quadra on its own, and the 8600 and G3 will happily use USB once the OS starts.
[16:46:25] <iron_angel> Mostly just the Quadra 950, which is around just to run A/UX.
[16:46:34] <iron_angel> Well, and the NeXTs, but they're non-ADB for now.
[16:46:35] <Tempt> Meh, I've got over 200 patches to apply on this machine.
[16:46:53] <oninoshiko> heh A/UX is amusing
[16:47:16] <iron_angel> It's downright weird, but kinda cool.
[16:47:22] <iron_angel> NeXTSTEP is, too.
[16:47:23] <Tempt> A/UX won me a beer once.
[16:47:27] <iron_angel> oh?
[16:47:30] <oninoshiko> really?
[16:47:39] <Tempt> Had a bet about building a webserver that others couldn't crack.
[16:47:44] <iron_angel> hehe!
[16:47:51] <oninoshiko> LOL
[16:47:55] <Tempt> There isn't a lot on buqtraq etc for A/UX.
[16:47:59] <iron_angel> The canonical solution to that is VMS :P
[16:48:08] <iron_angel> but VMS is, well... *wonky*
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[16:48:22] <Tempt> iron_angel: Yes, but finding a VMS machine small enough to hide in a machineroom would be difficult. They aren't common.
[16:48:28] <Tempt> The Mac cost $10 from a pawnbroker.
[16:48:31] <oninoshiko> gotta love any OS that you can go to a dir you have yet created
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[16:48:46] <oninoshiko> haven't
[16:49:11] <Tempt> Need to get a NeXT machine to round out my collection.
[16:49:23] <iron_angel> Tempt: An Alphastation?
[16:49:24] <elektronkind> too bad I sold my next slab
[16:49:30] <Tempt> Had alpha
[16:49:38] <iron_angel> or a VAXstation 4000/VLC?
[16:49:39] <Tempt> ran Tru64/TruCluster in a production environment
[16:49:46] <Tempt> and had a couple of multias lying around at home.
[16:49:54] <Doc> hmm.. my crash-n-burn windows XP box only has 1 trojan and 2 adware programs install.  i'm a little surprised it's so low
[16:49:58] <leal> Tempt: do i need mount /devices or /dev on chroot to apply the patches? I will try to make a chroot from failsafe.
[16:50:28] <Tempt> leal: Not sure on that, I'm not an x86 expert.
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[16:50:43] <Tempt> Doc: It mustn't get used much.
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[16:51:20] <Tempt> Doc: I had a windows box in a sharehouse once. After a week it had so much crap on it it needed reinstalling. That ended my efforts at having a browse/games box in the loungeroom.
[16:51:33] <leal> Tempt: dont you use chroot on sparc machines?
[16:51:36] <iron_angel> I need to get a VAX and a working Alpha to add to my collection, and maybe a newer HPPA.
[16:51:42] <iron_angel> These 712s are cool, but old.
[16:51:54] <twincest> is "F6800" the same as E6800?
[16:51:54] <Tempt> leal: We don't have "failsafe" boot etc, OpenFirmware doesn't need grub-like stuff to boot
[16:52:05] <Tempt> leal: We just break our rootmirrors so we can rollback easily
[16:52:09] <iron_angel> I also need to find an SS5/TCX, and two dual-CPU modules for my SS20, but...
[16:52:19] <leal> Tempt: ok... seems nice.
[16:52:20] <Tempt> twincest: Just call it a Serengeti
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[16:52:40] <Tempt> iron_angel: Got my 170Mhz SS5 complete with AMD 5x86 on an SBus card.
[16:53:09] <Tempt> iron_angel: and a whopping 256Mb of RAM IIRC
[16:53:25] <Tempt> leal: Yeah, SPARC architecture is nice.
[16:53:28] <iron_angel> heh, cool :P
[16:53:31] <Tempt> leal: OpenFirmware is really handy.
[16:53:52] <Tempt> leal: Someone even wrote a song about it.
[16:54:06] <iron_angel> I want the 110MHz version - I'm looking to run OPENSTEP 4.2 on it, then switch the SS20 to Linux or Solaris.
[16:54:17] <iron_angel> I'm using the 20 now just because it has SX graphics :P
[16:54:20] <Tempt> iron_angel: I've got OpenStep here
[16:54:28] <Tempt> iron_angel: Was teh groovy.
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[16:54:35] <iron_angel> here too, on NeXT, HP and SPARC.
[16:54:45] <Tempt> iron_angel: SO FAST. Shows you that youcan have snappy graphics performance on an old SS5 with a TGX.
[16:54:48] <iron_angel> I had it on Intel for a while too. Fast, but eww, the old-PC driver shuffle.
[16:55:00] <Tempt> And that beachball cursor ..
[16:55:08] <iron_angel> Tempt: try on a 68040/25 with 32-bit RAM. Still fast!
[16:55:24] <Tempt> I worked with someone who had it running on a PPro 200
[16:55:26] <iron_angel> it does seem to really want 24-bit graphics though, or at least 16-bit.
[16:55:40] * oninoshiko hugs OF
[16:55:43] <Tempt> iron_angel: It does remarkably well on 8bit though, compared to Unix.
[16:55:48] <iron_angel> I had it running on a P2/400 and a Celeron/466, but the driver dance was sucktacular.
[16:55:59] <Tempt> iron_angel: PPro was old enough to have ISA slots.
[16:56:02] <iron_angel> Tempt: yeah, true. CDE on an Ultra 2 with a TGX... ew.
[16:56:22] <iron_angel> needless to say getting an Elite3d m6 for that box was a massive improvement.
[16:56:40] <iron_angel> Tempt: so was the P2. The Celeron was a notebook, though.
[16:56:41] <Tempt> Ultra-2, dual 400s, 2Gb RAM, pair of nice fast disks
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[16:56:53] <Tempt> That did me as a workstation for a *long* time
[16:57:03] <iron_angel> The U2 is actually a really nice box.
[16:57:11] <Tempt> Lovely machine.
[16:57:18] <iron_angel> Mine's specced close to that, but with dual 300s.
[16:57:23] <Tempt> I won't part with my two, even if the current workload is "monitor stand"
[16:57:37] <iron_angel> I have 400s, but they're the 4MB version, so they work in the 30/60/80/E250, but not the 2.
[16:57:59] <Tempt> Damn
[16:58:00] <iron_angel> I just missed out on an E250 the other day too, because the guy wouldn't ship to me
[16:58:10] <Tempt> I've got a pair of 250s
[16:58:12] <Tempt> Nice machines
[16:58:29] <iron_angel> the one I missed had 4GB, 6x 146GB disks, 2 DVD and 2x XVR-1200.
[16:58:40] <Tempt> I ran them as a SunCluster for my general purpose server stuff for a while.
[16:58:43] <iron_angel> $275 + shipping.
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[16:58:53] <Tempt> 6x146s for $275?
[16:58:54] <Tempt> bargain.
[16:58:58] <iron_angel> yeah.
[16:59:08] <Tempt> For that price, send a courier to pick it up
[16:59:15] <Tempt> Part it out and sell the spindles for $100 each
[16:59:23] <iron_angel> Yeah, I would have, but someone beat me to it.
[16:59:38] <Tempt> Sounds like it was someone's pride-and-joy workstation
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[16:59:40] <iron_angel> Hell yeah. And use the two graphics cards in the U80 and B2k.
[17:00:00] <iron_angel> That would be my guess actually. The only thing lacking is sound, and some don't care about that.
[17:00:30] <Tempt> You can slap a creative soundblaster in there and get sound
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[17:00:34] <CIA-26> timh: 6574875 SUNWzfsr/SUNWzfsu package dependency issues in snv_67.
[17:00:35] <Tempt> SPARC drivers exist.
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[17:00:54] <Tempt> For an E250 to get build up like that someone must have cared.
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[17:00:59] <iron_angel> Really? Hmmm!
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[17:01:15] <iron_angel> ES1370s or Emu10k1?
[17:01:46] <Tempt> Sorta like my Ultra-2 with 400x2, 2Gb RAM, gigabit ethernet, FFB2+, fancy slotload DVD drive, SunVideo etc
[17:01:53] <Tempt> iron_angel: You'd have to chase it down.
[17:01:56] <iron_angel> heh, yeah!
[17:02:05] <Tempt> iron_angel: I'd probably just install a supported USB card and use USB sound
[17:02:06] <sporq_> LAME...  legato removed the ability to license their crappy software out of the command line.
[17:02:11] <iron_angel> I wanna get hold of a SunVideo card, and a SunPCi.
[17:02:32] <Tempt> iron_angel: heh, sunpci is amusing.
[17:02:40] <Tempt> iron_angel: It lets me say I'm running Linux on an 880
[17:02:41] <iron_angel> I'm debating trying to find an AFB for my U2. It has an FFB2+ in it now.
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[17:02:46] <iron_angel> hehehe.
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[17:03:05] <Tempt> iron_angel: To be honest, you'll get better 2D performance by plugging a SunRay into the Ultra-2 with a crossover cable.
[17:03:20] <Tempt> (yes, SunRay is that good)
[17:03:54] <iron_angel> really? Hmm!
[17:04:03] <Tempt> Someone who used to be at Sun once showed me a demo running on an Ultra-2 with an FFB
[17:04:03] <coffman> iron_angel: why not get ride of the u2 and u10?
[17:04:12] <Tempt> It had amazing fancy demoscene style eyecandy
[17:04:21] <Tempt> At a nice fast framerate.
[17:04:32] <iron_angel> I'll probably lose the U10, actually, but the U2 might well become my SPARC Linux devbox.
[17:04:34] <Tempt> Apparently the main cause of sluggish performance is shabby xserver/driver code
[17:04:43] <Tempt> iron_angel: Don't insult the Ultra-2.
[17:04:49] <Tempt> iron_angel: It deserves better than that.
[17:05:10] <iron_angel> hmm, true, but my other choice is a U60, which is pretty much just as nice!
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[17:05:25] <Tempt> You get PCI in the U60, which gives you a lot more options
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[17:05:50] <iron_angel> My impression was always that Sun prioritized background processes over interactive performance, the inverse of what SGI tended to do.
[17:06:08] <iron_angel> Which is why and XVR-500 stomps all over a Maximum Impact, but feels slower.
[17:06:10] <Tempt> Actually, there is an extension in Xsun to give a priority bump to the foreground window.
[17:06:16] <iron_angel> hmm.
[17:07:43] <Tempt> I want to get ahold of a zulu and see how that performs
[17:07:54] <CSFrost> Offtopic, could anyone recommend a good hammock?
[17:08:01] <iron_angel> heh, I've heard good things about 'em.
[17:08:10] <Tempt> any framebuffer big and heavy enough to use as a weapon has my vote.
[17:08:16] <twincest> CSFrost: that is the strangely question i have seen on irc so far today
[17:08:24] <Tempt> Can't seem to get my hands on one
[17:08:38] <elektronkind> CSFrost: get a Brazilian Hammock
[17:08:45] <CSFrost> twincest, it's a good question though
[17:08:47] <elektronkind> CSFrost: http://www.hammocks.com/hammocks/brazilian-hammocks/1030+1063+4294924739.cfm
[17:08:48] <iron_angel> at least it's a single module, unlike the SGI InfiniteReality stuffs!
[17:08:50] <Tempt> elektronkind: Is that a hammock after a waxjob
[17:08:57] <CSFrost> elektronkind, will check it out :-)
[17:08:57] <elektronkind> hehe
[17:08:58] <iron_angel> like six boards for those, to drive one 13W3.
[17:09:02] <Tempt> iron_angel: I've got the machine to install it in, so ...
[17:09:13] <elektronkind> CSFrost: I have one of those I taken when camping. Very nice.
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[17:09:52] <CSFrost> elektronkind, are they available without the tassels?
[17:10:09] <iron_angel> Tempt: worth it then, if ye can find one!
[17:10:16] <CSFrost> you use it for napping? I am thinking of spending 40 hour weeks in the thing
[17:10:19] <iron_angel> I need to get a set of stereo goggles too.
[17:10:30] <elektronkind> it's good for sleeping during the day because it can completely envelope you like a tube... yeah, there are plent of ones there on that page without fringe
[17:10:37] <elektronkind> s/plent/plenty
[17:11:02] <CSFrost> can, or will envelope you?
[17:11:15] <CSFrost> cause I'd like to be able to view the clouds and all still..
[17:11:36] <elektronkind> can :) if you pull the sides up over you it will enclose you
[17:11:50] <elektronkind> if you lay along the long axis of it
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[17:12:18] <Tempt> CSFrost: So, there you are, lazing in a hammock on a warm Hawaiian afternoon.
[17:12:21] <elektronkind> as you can see in those product pics, you can lay every which way in it
[17:12:26] <Tempt> CSFrost: I can see the smug IRC comments already.
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[17:13:10] <CSFrost> elektronkind, yep.. hrm just hopefully I wouldn't lean too far and spin myself around like a propeller before it throwing me on the ground :-P
[17:13:25] <CSFrost> Tempt, it's important to have good napping rituals.
[17:13:28] <Tempt> Oh, man, those things look comfy.
[17:13:51] <elektronkind> they're the bomb when it comes to outdoor lounging
[17:14:16] <iron_angel> Hmm, I wonder if a PGX32 will work in a Mac...
[17:14:24] <CSFrost> 450 # weight capacity too.. I can afford to put on a few more pounds also
[17:14:28] <Tempt> CSFrost: You could bolt a swivel arm onto something to hold your laptop.
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[17:14:41] <Tempt> That way you can be smug on IRC *while lazing the hammock*
[17:14:54] <CSFrost> tempt, true true..
[17:15:26] <Tempt> I love the slogan for that site
[17:15:33] <Tempt> "Accomplish nothing..."
[17:16:21] <CSFrost> lol
[17:16:41] <elektronkind> I think Microsoft was trying to buy that trademark from them ;)
[17:16:48] <CSFrost> It's important to rest well in between  sessions of saving the world you know..
[17:17:04] <Tempt> Oh, absolutely.
[17:17:07] <elektronkind> a superhero needs R&R too, after all
[17:17:14] <Tempt> In fact, I'm thinking of taking a nap about now.
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[17:17:44] <CSFrost> most indubiably so
[17:18:01] <Tempt> oh well, nighty-night all
[17:18:12] <CSFrost> night tempt!
[17:18:21] <iron_angel> Ciao!
[17:20:11] <freakazoid0223> not true micro$oft accomplishes plenty, they stifle competition, they outsource good jobs, make a handfull of people incredibly rich....
[17:21:10] <CSFrost> this hammock shopping is almost as hard as it was to find new lcd's..
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[17:21:21] <CSFrost> actually, possibly harder!
[17:21:38] * freakazoid0223 cant resist an oppertunity to bash ms
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[17:22:56] <oninoshiko> well someone need a good hobby
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[17:25:38] <CSFrost> lol! "Caution: Falling and Strangulation Hazard!"
[17:25:56] <oninoshiko> o.0?
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[17:27:06] <CSFrost> Hammock warning lables..
[17:27:38] <oninoshiko> ahh
[17:28:38] <CSFrost> elektronkind, any knowledge of the Mayan hammocks? This one looks a little more airy.. http://www.hammocks.com/hammocks/mayan-hammocks/products.cfm?action=view&key=MX011
[17:30:14] <leal> how to use network on a chroot environment on solaris? i need use wget in failsafe mode...
[17:32:11] <EchoBinary> ive heard tell that there is zfs development underway or soon underway to allow growing of a zaid-z(2) by adding a disk. can anyone verify this? (with links?) as this will determine the course i choose for an os/filesystem
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[17:32:37] <Plouj> what, you can't currently grow a raid-z array at the moment?
[17:33:03] <elektronkind> not currently
[17:33:19] <elektronkind> you can of course make additional raidz sets and add them to an existing pool
[17:33:35] <oninoshiko> i think he means addinga disk and having it just expand the array to match, and no, zpools dont do that right now
[17:33:42] <elektronkind> but if you want to take, say, a 3 disk raidz set and make it a 5 disk one... not yet.
[17:34:06] * oninoshiko drools over the possibility of that feature being added
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[17:34:14] <EchoBinary> i know what i can currently do :)  but i keep hearing rhumors that this might be avail in the future - im wondering if anyone has heard the same, and where they found out
[17:34:31] <EchoBinary> rumors*
[17:35:32] <oninoshiko> EchoBinary : youll have to track the zfs mailing list
[17:35:39] <oninoshiko> (or forums)
[17:38:04] <EchoBinary> ahh
[17:38:07] <EchoBinary> ok
[17:38:23] <EchoBinary> can you point me in the direction of the mailing list & forums?
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[17:40:15] <trygvis> does the b67 build support zfs root on x86?
[17:40:32] <trygvis> and in which configurations? mirror only?
[17:40:36] <CSFrost> echobinary, http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo
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[17:41:21] <EchoBinary> thanks :)
[17:41:39] <CSFrost> alphabetical order, should be easy to find :-)
[17:41:46] <CSFrost> zfs-discuss is what you want though
[17:42:14] <CSFrost> afk, :-) important nap to take.
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[17:49:45] <Plouj> Ok, so if I have 3 disks. I want to split each disk into two unequal parts. Then I want to put the small parts into a raid0 array and the big parts into a raid-z array. Can I later resize the parts in order to resize the arrays?
[17:50:22] <Plouj> (without loosing data and preferably without taking data offline)
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[17:56:04] <PerterB> not really, no... neither ufs nor zfs can handle shrinking partitions
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[17:57:52] <oninoshiko> IIRC most FSes cannot handle shrinking of partitions
[17:58:37] <PerterB> FAT32 and HSFS+ can (with the help of external tools) :)
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[17:59:26] <Saltsa> PerterB: did you mean hfs+?
[17:59:38] <PerterB> um, yes :)
[18:00:04] <oninoshiko> external tools dont count :p
[18:00:11] <PerterB> I've never actually seen it done, but that's what Apple's boot camp product is supposed to achieve
[18:00:29] <RElling> friends don't let friends use RAID-0
[18:00:34] <Saltsa> i think shrinking can be done with disk utility in os x
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[18:00:49] <PerterB> oh, and of course vxfs!
[18:01:04] * oninoshiko always makes fun of everyone useing "raid" 0
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[18:02:07] <oninoshiko> ?me mumbles "raid 0 isnt"
[18:02:08] <PerterB> never mind the quality, feel the width of the stripes ;)
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[18:02:39] <cmihai> How do you force zfs set sharenfs=rw to use NFSv3?
[18:02:50] <twincest> cmihai: same as share_nfs, isn't it?
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[18:03:05] <cmihai> Yeah, nevermind.
[18:03:08] <cmihai> The client was being stupid
[18:03:10] <rawn027> are there any other better guides opn using jumpstart enterprise toolkit?
[18:03:18] <rawn027> i cannot get it to work for the life of me
[18:03:43] <rawn027> nfs mount: 192.168.0.253:/export/install/sparc_10: No such file or directory
[18:03:55] <rawn027> that directory definetly exists though
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[18:07:32] <rawn027> anyone here use JumpStart Ent Toolkit? I have the basic way to do it all set but I wanted to see what all the fuss was about with JET
[18:08:11] <BaYGoN> In Solaris 10, which is the config file that contains the IP of the DNS? I can't browse the web, can't ping www.google.com for example
[18:08:34] <stevel> baygon: /etc/resolv.conf
[18:08:37] <iron_angel> /etc/resolv.conf
[18:08:42] <iron_angel> but also see /etc/nsswitch.conf
[18:08:44] <stevel> also make sure your /etc/nsswitch.conf has 'dns' in the hosts line
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[18:09:34] <RElling> rawn027: that error is not a JET-induced error.  It means that the client cannot mount the directory.  When I do that, it is usually a typo :-)
[18:10:23] <stevel> rawn027: you could do a 'showmount -e 192.168.0.253' to see if it's really exporting that
[18:10:34] <BaYGoN> @stevel: there's no /etc/resolv.conf here... and nsswitch.conf has nothing about dns
[18:10:54] <stevel> baygon: do you have a /etc/nsswitch.dns file? if you do, you can copy that to /etc/nsswitch.conf, or just put "dns" in the hosts: line
[18:11:12] <stevel> baygon: and put some 'nameserver x.x.x.x' lines in your /etc/resolv.conf and you should be set
[18:11:25] <stevel> might need to restart name service cache: `svcadm restart name-service-cache`
[18:11:31] * stevel goes off to find some coffee
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[18:13:11] <BaYGoN> @stevel: thnx... it's working now
[18:13:14] <BaYGoN> :D
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[18:14:48] * oninoshiko wants to kick dell square in the junk
[18:16:00] <iron_angel> woot, the AFB works.
[18:17:25] <Abe_Froman> badow
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[18:19:41] <cmihai> rawn027: does NFS work? Can you mount from localhost or another system? showmount -e host?
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[18:21:06] <rawn027> boot-srv# showmount -e 192.168.0.253
[18:21:40] <rawn027> i made sure it was not a typo :)
[18:21:47] <rawn027> opt/SUNWjet (everyone)
[18:22:03] <rawn027> i dont know why it didnt print it earlier
[18:27:29] <cmihai> Well, it's not there, then it's not exported.
[18:27:38] <rawn027> possibly solved
[18:27:58] <rawn027> didnt know nfs needed that shared... plus i needed to create a pkgs and patches folder in /export/install
[18:28:05] <rawn027> now the make client command passwd
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[18:31:14] <rawn027> ok it works
[18:31:17] <rawn027> thanks for the help
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[18:31:39] <cmihai> :-)
[18:33:01] <rawn027> so jet makes my life so much easier
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[18:38:32] <Plouj> can I get read/write transfer rates at least as fast as a single disk in a 3 disk raid-z?
[18:39:43] <g4lt-U60> that would be the upper bound of transfer rate, the lowest single disk xfer rate
[18:40:19] <Plouj> upper bound?!
[18:40:24] <Plouj> are you kidding me
[18:40:59] <Plouj> isn't raid-z at least supposed to read fast since it can get the same data from two disks out of three?
[18:41:10] <iron_angel> read yes.
[18:41:34] <Plouj> then it can definately read faster than a single disk
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[18:41:39] <iron_angel> performance scales up as you add more disks, too, but it probably takes 4-5 disks to equal single-disk write performance in the general case.
[18:42:17] <g4lt-U60> Plouj, if you're going to argue, why ask in the first place?
[18:43:13] <Plouj> g4lt-U60: I have all the right to question your answer.
[18:43:28] <Plouj> g4lt-U60: I need to know what you base it on.
[18:43:38] <Plouj> g4lt-U60: do you want me to blindly listen to what you and other people say?
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[18:45:24] <rawn027> no need to argue friends :)
[18:45:35] <g4lt-U60> no, what I WANT you to do is your own research.  what I EXPECT is that you'll ask on IRC, then argue with answers you disagree with, even if they're right
[18:48:15] * Plouj re-reads that 10 times
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[18:48:35] * oninoshiko understood it
[18:48:48] <Plouj> you want me to argue with answers that are right?
[18:48:58] <oninoshiko> no, he expects you to
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[18:49:41] <EchoBinary> Yogurt contains active cultures. :)
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[18:50:07] <DIGITAL39> I am new to Solaris and I was hoping someone could help me with an installation I am having with Solaris 10, #solaris is not responding to me
[18:50:08] * oninoshiko awards EchoBinary a trophey for randomness
[18:50:30] <EchoBinary> YaY!
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[18:51:23] <iron_angel> ack...
[18:51:46] <rawn027> DIGITAL39: there is a GREAT reference on the sun.com page
[18:51:46] <trygvis> I don't get this .. uname -a shows the same kernel version in both the b60 and b67 builds. how can I verify the build number properly+
[18:51:57] <rawn027> what verison are you installing?
[18:52:10] <DIGITAL39> I was reading the reference, and that is where I am having problems
[18:52:17] <DIGITAL39> http://www.sun.com/software/solaris/howtoguides/installationhowto.jsp
[18:52:28] <rawn027> what version?
[18:52:34] <DIGITAL39> 10
[18:52:34] <rawn027> solaris 10 or solaris express
[18:52:42] <rawn027> ok off to a good start :)
[18:52:49] <rawn027> where are you having issues
[18:52:53] <DIGITAL39> I get the choice of solaris and solaris on serial a and b, then it comes to
[18:52:55] <DIGITAL39> SunOS Release 5.10 Version Generic_Patch 32-bit
[18:52:56] <DIGITAL39> Copyright 1983-2005 Sun Microsystems, Inc. All rights reserved.
[18:52:56] <DIGITAL39> Use is subject to license terms.
[18:52:58] <iron_angel> well this is a revoltin' development... Do I need to be using matched framebuffers to use OpenGL with Xinerama on SPARC?
[18:53:06] <DIGITAL39> that's where it stops, I don't get any further choices
[18:53:17] <rawn027> it might take a while to load
[18:53:17] <g4lt-U60> trygvis, both uname -v to the same number?!  that's news... what do they uname -v to?
[18:53:28] <rawn027> what hardware are you trying to install this on
[18:53:38] <rawn027> x86 or sparc
[18:53:49] <DIGITAL39> the cd stops spinning, im installing in a vm, virtual box, on x86
[18:53:52] <g4lt-U60> iron_angel, not that I've ever heard, but alanc would be the man on that one
[18:54:09] <iron_angel> Hmm, alright then...
[18:54:11] <rawn027> there is your problem right there, the support for solaris in VM is quite poor
[18:54:19] <rawn027> i use parallels and its terrible
[18:54:24] <rawn027> vmware is only a little better
[18:54:29] <oninoshiko> DIGITAL39 : it sits like that for a while on a real machine
[18:54:30] <iron_angel> Yah, ogl_install_check is refusing to create a context :/
[18:54:49] <rawn027> oninoshiko: yeah quite some time actuallyt
[18:54:55] <rawn027> you are correct
[18:54:57] <DIGITAL39> oninoshiko: does the cd spin during that time?
[18:55:03] <DIGITAL39> because mine stops
[18:55:09] <rawn027> on and off it spins
[18:55:16] <rawn027> i would let it sit and grab a beer
[18:55:19] <trygvis> g4lt-U60: the seem to be the same. I think I have to check that everything is correctly set up
[18:55:21] <rawn027> listen to some music
[18:55:22] <DIGITAL39> ok
[18:55:23] <rawn027> and see what happens
[18:55:26] <oninoshiko> i dont think so, but the machine i was last working on is 50mi away
[18:55:28] <rawn027> at 10 minutes
[18:55:33] <DIGITAL39> haha
[18:55:36] <trygvis> where cen I find the grub menu? it's not under /boot/grub as expected
[18:55:44] <rawn027> then you might blame it on the VM software
[18:55:52] <g4lt-U60> trygvis, bootadm
[18:55:53] <rawn027> sound good? come back and let us know your conclusion
[18:56:01] <oninoshiko> so if i hear it spinning id be worried ;p
[18:56:04] <DIGITAL39> oninoshiko: you can't hear 50mi away through data center walls? im disappointed
[18:56:21] <DIGITAL39> rawn027: will do, thanks guys
[18:56:28] <rawn027> np
[18:56:29] <oninoshiko> two data center walls... and one is an ex military installation
[18:56:45] <DIGITAL39> well, ill let it slide then
[18:57:08] <trygvis> g4lt-U60: what is b67 expected to return from uname -v? mine is showing Generic_125101-07
[18:57:21] <trygvis> and, with bootadm how can I see which slices it's using?
[18:57:32] <DIGITAL39> is there benefit to using the opensolaris over solaris 10?
[18:57:49] <rawn027> digital it might work on your setup
[18:57:49] <g4lt-U60> trygvis, mine shows snv_19, but I'm a lazy fuck ;)
[18:57:55] <oninoshiko> DIGITAL39 : YMMV with running under VMs, but it does stay there for quite some time
[18:58:03] <rawn027> hardware support is better
[18:58:24] <oninoshiko> DIGITAL39 : its more likely to suppport things, but (theoreticly) is more likely to have bugs
[18:58:25] <rawn027> new builds of everything, that is about it
[18:58:36] <rawn027> i use it at home
[18:58:39] <g4lt-U60> if uname -v is showing generic_number, that sounds like a mainstream solaris isntall and not a nevada
[18:58:40] <rawn027> at work i use solaris 10
[18:58:57] <rawn027> i only use it on my box at home because my hardware isnt supported in sol10
[18:59:17] <twincest> trygvis: Generic_125101-07 is impossible on nevada, unless you somehow managed to install a solaris 10 kernel patch on it
[18:59:22] <palowoda> DIGITAL39: Try using a live cd version of Opensolaris like Belenix to test with if you don't want to make physical changes.
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[18:59:40] <rawn027> palowoda: he is doing it in a virtual machine :)
[18:59:40] <trygvis> twincest: IIRC I did that on the b60 build
[18:59:47] <trygvis> updatemanager works just great :)
[18:59:48] <twincest> trygvis: okay.  don't do that.  :)
[19:00:08] <trygvis> are patches applied when upgrading with LU?
[19:00:09] <DIGITAL39> im getting the free kit for opensolaris right now :)
[19:00:24] <g4lt-U60> my NV55b shows up as snv_55b, so unless they changed the uname in the last three months, it's still snv_XX
[19:00:28] <twincest> trygvis: no.  (well, sort of, if you upgrade solaris 10, the new release will include some patches)
[19:00:28] <rawn027> awesome gl
[19:00:28] <CIA-26> rm15945: 6428919 automountd only tries NFSv4 with -o public
[19:00:31] <CIA-26> stevel: 6576229 open-only build is broken (fwflash)
[19:00:53] <DIGITAL39> the only thing solaris I have ever seen really is a screen shot of 300 days uptime so im interested to see what else solaris has to offer me
[19:00:55] <g4lt-U60> uhm hter are no patches for nevada
[19:01:01] <rawn027> ZFS
[19:01:09] <rawn027> thats all you need to know
[19:01:10] <twincest> trygvis: if you install the S10 KU on nevada, your system is probably screwed now
[19:01:12] <iron_angel> really solid NFSv4.
[19:01:13] <twincest> trygvis: suggest reinstall
[19:01:22] <iron_angel> Good Kerberos support.
[19:01:25] <rawn027> NFS owns all on Solaris
[19:01:28] <iron_angel> Support for other sorts of shinies too.
[19:01:41] <iron_angel> yah, the only other platform that's close is AIX.
[19:01:43] <trygvis> come to think of it, I might have done it on the sol10u3 install
[19:01:59] <rawn027> if you dev in Java solaris is your OS
[19:02:20] <trygvis> but anyway, how can I see which slice grub is using as root?
[19:03:16] <DIGITAL39> how is solaris for a desktop environment? like the software selection, usability, etc
[19:04:05] <palowoda> The answer is 42
[19:04:15] <DIGITAL39> I was hoping it was
[19:04:40] <LuckyLuke> where do I find the probable date of release of the next SXCE? [or: do I download & install sxce67 now or wait a couple days for the next one?]
[19:04:54] <iron_angel> DIGITAL39: it's not too bad for that. Basically, 99% of what you have available on Linux works on Solaris too.
[19:05:19] <iron_angel> And pretty much all the desktop environments too. The canonical one is JDS, but there's CDE, KDE and XFCE too.
[19:05:37] <quasi> LuckyLuke: 67 was friday last week, so I wouldn't expect 68 before friday next week at the earliest
[19:05:56] <iron_angel> the XFCE sources are part of the OpenSolaris project now. I'm not sure about KDE 3.5.6 yet, but I'd think it works.
[19:05:59] <LuckyLuke> so we're "quasi" in the middle :)
[19:06:16] <LuckyLuke> going with 67. thanks.
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[19:06:23] <DIGITAL39> ok cool, I go do some more research so I don't sit here and ask questions that have been asked too many times im sure
[19:06:43] <oninoshiko> there is some hardware you can expect no support for (ATi video), but anything linux should be a simple rebuild (if someone hasnt done it for you already)
[19:06:49] <denali> LuckyLuke: There is some ghosting in the GUI of b67
[19:07:05] <LuckyLuke> that's not a problem, no GUI here :)
[19:07:13] <denali> ah good.
[19:07:36] <iron_angel> ah, yeah, good point. for ATI you have only the open-source drivers. Not so for nVidia though - they provide a driver.
[19:08:35] <DIGITAL39> yeah I think that is similar to linux, thankfully I have no ATI cards
[19:08:55] <oninoshiko> yes, im considering one of the new (not)shiney T61s because they have nVidia quatros... (kinda a shame though, i mean my T60 is still freaking new
[19:09:45] <oninoshiko> DIGITAL39 : no in linux ATI does make a closed-source driver
[19:10:07] <iron_angel> Quadros rule. I'd like to see a QuadroFX 4500 SPARC edition :)
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[19:10:46] <DIGITAL39> oninoshiko: shows my knowledge of ati goodies
[19:11:12] <oninoshiko> the only reason i know/care is because i have a t60p
[19:11:28] <iron_angel> I have to give nVidia extra cheers for supporting FreeBSD and Solaris. Bonus.
[19:12:07] <leal> Somebody knows how to apply patches in failsafe mode? how to setup the environment to use pca, for example??
[19:12:34] <DIGITAL39> Im sorta amazed that I have never owned an ati card, but I am glad I didn't since most of my older machines are using linux in some way shape or form
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[19:13:47] <DIGITAL39> you mentioned NFS on solaris earlier, how well will solaris run on low memory if I wanted to make a nice little nas, I remember something saying 768 minimum but another page quoted much lower
[19:14:07] <cmihai> Give it a gig, RAM is cheap.
[19:14:20] <cmihai> Sure, the installer needs 768MB in GRAPHICAL mode for SCXCE
[19:14:27] <cmihai> Sure, it may run with 256MB...
[19:14:37] <cmihai> But just give the thing 1GB and be done with it
[19:14:38] <LuckyLuke> DIGITAL39: I'm running a home server on a P4/768MiB
[19:14:51] <nachox> DIGITAL39: solaris can run with a lot less then 768mb of ram
[19:14:56] <LuckyLuke> no X11, of course, but ZFS and some zones, MySQL, samba, and some stuff.
[19:15:07] <quasi> cmihai: the 768MB for the installer is a bug - the design spec says <500
[19:15:12] <LuckyLuke> maybe it's not the best setup, but "it works" - and I got it for cheap.
[19:15:28] <cmihai> quasi: not exactly, SXCE in "Solaris Express Developer Mode" needs 768
[19:15:31] <nachox> DIGITAL39: you just need 768 to install the developer tools and all that
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[19:15:38] <cmihai> yep
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[19:15:54] <quasi> cmihai: for the time being - people say it will be fixed
[19:16:02] <nachox> and you can install those later outside the install procedure
[19:16:06] <DIGITAL39> yeah, I have a few extra motherboards and I would rather not spend a ton upgrading all of them so I can run machines on them ya know
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[19:16:17] <cmihai> DIGITAL39: so don't.
[19:16:21] <quasi> but then the cmdline installer is nicer anyways
[19:16:32] <cmihai> DIGITAL39: consolidat.e
[19:16:39] <cmihai> Take all that junk
[19:16:49] <cmihai> and make a really nice machine with tons of RAM and disks
[19:16:51] <cmihai> Then use containers.
[19:16:57] <iron_angel> <grin>
[19:17:10] <cmihai> It's more memory and hardware effective. Not to mention power.
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[19:18:00] * iron_angel wonders if she can find an FC-AL disk cage, that takes SCSI disks, somewhat inexpensively...
[19:18:16] <oninoshiko> why cant goggle convet to html, then translate... i need to talk to someone over there about this
[19:18:18] <DIGITAL39> yeah, I was going to do that and still may
[19:18:51] <DIGITAL39> ook, the installer has been sitting for 20min in the same spot, call it quites and install on a physical machine?
[19:19:09] <oninoshiko> try a LiveCD
[19:19:31] <oninoshiko> or a spare machine
[19:19:46] <DIGITAL39> im pulling out one of my old servers right now
[19:19:56] <LuckyLuke> iron_angel: afaik 'fc-al' and 'inexepensive' don't play well together :)
[19:20:04] <iron_angel> yah, true... unless used.
[19:20:14] <twincest> infortrend.  ;-)
[19:20:15] <FrostCS> or borked
[19:20:15] <pfn> I want a new machine, a big massive machine I can use to run zones on
[19:20:18] * pfn sniffles
[19:20:29] <iron_angel> Though maybe just straight SCSI would be fine. What's the SCSI bus on a Blade 2000? Ultra160?
[19:20:46] <tsoome> zones dont need big machine, laptop is just fine;)
[19:21:03] <pfn> tsoome not if I want to do heavy processing in each zone, I think  :p
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[19:21:24] <stevel> iron_angel: thought it was a u320
[19:21:38] <stevel> i recall my old sb2k had U320 drives in it.
[19:21:41] <iron_angel> if so, then cool.
[19:22:10] <stevel> http://sunsolve.sun.com/handbook_pub/Systems/SunBlade2000/components.html
[19:22:15] <stevel> says it has u320 components
[19:22:21] <tsoome> drives are generally comaptible and will adapt...
[19:22:51] <sommerfeld> i thought sb2k drives were FC, not SCSI
[19:23:14] <iron_angel> They are, at least the internals, but it has SCSI too.
[19:23:39] <iron_angel> Well, what I'm thinking is that if the SCSI bus is U160 or U320, then it's gonna be faster than the FC-AL anyway.
[19:24:36] <delewis_> FC-AL drives are fairly inexpensive.
[19:25:05] <delewis_> a 36G drive shouldn't run more than $50 or so.
[19:25:21] <tsoome> iron_angel: you plan to fill the bus with 1-2 drives?;)
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[19:25:54] <iron_angel> no, I was thinking of a multi-disk cage, actually. Would FC serve better in that case?
[19:26:08] <delewis> what's your budget?
[19:26:28] <delewis> an empty Photon shouldn't cost more than $100 or $150
[19:26:37] <iron_angel> eh, fairly low. This isn't an enterprise setup, more like, let's see how much bang I can get on the cheap. That's reasonable.
[19:26:40] <Abe_Froman> photons are free
[19:26:48] <delewis> I paid $550 for my fully loaded Photon with 22x18GB disks
[19:27:00] <iron_angel> I've yet to see an FC disk larger than 73GB though.
[19:27:00] <Abe_Froman> positrons will cost you
[19:27:21] <delewis> iron_angel, there are 146G drives around but they are pricey.
[19:27:41] <delewis> if you have a problem with the cost of FC, then go elsewhere -- it isn't for you.
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[19:27:48] * iron_angel nodnods.
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[19:28:11] <iron_angel> Well, that's why I was thinking of either a SCSI array, or an array that takes SCSI disks but connects via FC.
[19:28:24] <iron_angel> Mostly since I already have an FC port available :)
[19:28:25] <EchoBinary> pardon the stupid Q: what is a LUN?
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[19:28:32] <pfn> logical unit number
[19:28:33] <delewis> FC disks ar actually cheaper than Ultra160 disks.
[19:28:40] <delewis> s/ar/are/
[19:29:00] <delewis> mostly because the market for U160 disks is larger.
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[19:29:15] <EchoBinary> specifically, within this context: "If you are using the whole lun as your vdev in zpool and using EFI label, you can export zpool, relabel the luns (using the new capacity) and import that zpool. You should be able to see the increased size then. FYI, dynamic lun expansion feature is under testing and will be available soon."
[19:30:00] <pfn> EchoBinary, it's basically a disk
[19:30:28] <iron_angel> Well then, I'll just have to look and see what I can find!
[19:30:29] <EchoBinary> is that saying that raidz dynamic disk expansion is in testing?
[19:30:47] <iron_angel> Now, to figure out why OpenGL is borking.
[19:31:48] <pfn> EchoBinary, no
[19:31:56] <pfn> EchoBinary, that's talking about zvols
[19:32:00] <pfn> I thought
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[19:33:08] <EchoBinary> ok
[19:33:12] <EchoBinary> cool :) thanks
[19:33:17] * EchoBinary trying to learn
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[19:34:51] <DIGITAL39> I just found a page on containers, can you run linux and windows inside containers or is it only solaris?
[19:35:17] <FrostCS> linux yes, windows hell no
[19:35:17] <iron_angel> for now only Solaris, but there is some tinkering with BrandZ, which would let you run Linux within it.
[19:35:20] <LuckyLuk1> no, you can ran a linux 2.4 userland inside a branded zone, and that's all (of course you can run solaris :)
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[19:36:14] <FrostCS> windows in a container, is that like chernobyl?
[19:36:17] <DIGITAL39> are there any solutions that will allow you to consolidate windows, solaris, and linux boxes? xen didn't seem to support solaris and from what rawn027 said vm support sucks, cutting out vmware server probably
[19:36:18] <delewis> Windows system calls are considered 'private' by Microsoft, and thus it is impossible to create Windows BrandZ support.
[19:36:24] <LuckyLuk1> native support is for redhat es (rhel 4, iirc) but you can install anything that runs under linux 2.4, in theory. I succesfully built a gentoo linux, for example
[19:37:16] <iron_angel> VMWare ESX or the like is currently the best bet for that kind of thing, but it's twiggy.
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[19:37:25] <LuckyLuk1> DIGITAL39: there was an OpenSolaris/xen project, and they had something running under Xen 3.0.x iirc. That is, with Solaris ported to Xen domU architecture.
[19:37:46] <LuckyLuk1> With a VT-x enabled processor you should be able to run 'anything' under Xen
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[19:38:16] <nachox> there is qemu too for solaris
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[19:38:29] <LuckyLuk1> slooooow.
[19:38:38] <nachox> likely, yes
[19:38:49] <LuckyLuk1> http://www.opensolaris.org/os/community/xen/announcements/#2007-03-31_Solaris_Xen_update
[19:38:54] <DIGITAL39> I have a new core 2 duo that I love and I was thining about buying another with 8gb and consolidating all my other machines
[19:39:00] <FrostCS> or you can just save your soul and not run windows...
[19:39:04] <DIGITAL39> so I was just curious
[19:39:10] <DIGITAL39> lol
[19:39:28] <LuckyLuk1> doesn't sound like 'production ready', but it's better than nothing.
[19:39:45] <DIGITAL39> naw its for home use
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[19:39:54] <LuckyLuk1> DIGITAL39: c2d are VT-x enabled. You can run linux, bsd, solaris, windows under xen.
[19:39:56] <vmlemon> Windows wasn't designed for production use ;)
[19:40:11] <vmlemon> It was intended for incorporation into toys, originally ;)
[19:40:22] <EchoBinary> windows was designed?
[19:40:23] <LuckyLuk1> don't know if you can mix HVM and non-HVM domains in xen (HVM = hardware virtualization = VT-x)
[19:40:29] <vmlemon> Hence the Fisher-Price style default GUI
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[19:41:02] <FrostCS> yes, windows wasn't designed period.
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[19:41:12] <vmlemon> It was purely an afterthought
[19:41:22] <DIGITAL39> I will look at xen again
[19:41:30] <vmlemon> A mistake, even
[19:41:52] <DIGITAL39> windows isn't sooo bad if the time is spent to really get into it, but most users don't
[19:42:07] <pfn> I'd asked about that, I thought VT-x allowed unmodified guests to run under xen
[19:42:09] <LuckyLuke> DIGITAL39: maybe you can go without linux and use solaris zones/containers. And if you can do without windows, you don't need any virtualization :)
[19:42:16] <DIGITAL39> all my windows cds are unattended so all my reg edits, etc are already set and I install into an environment that is optimized a little better
[19:42:35] <DIGITAL39> still its windows, not trying to argue that
[19:42:38] <LuckyLuke> pfn: yes it does
[19:43:26] <FrostCS> please don't mention reg edits, I just had lunch
[19:43:33] <DIGITAL39> haha
[19:43:57] <pfn> LuckyLuke, yeah, that's what I thought
[19:44:08] <pfn> xen + vt-x = anything that runs on x86 can run under xen
[19:44:26] <vmlemon> It's official, Windows causes nausea and an early death
[19:44:53] <vmlemon> (Due to all the stress induced by working with it)
[19:44:58] <DIGITAL39> is that why I have occassional heart attacks?
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[19:45:41] <LuckyLuke> pfn: yeah, but an os ported to xen domU should run better than the same os unmodified under xen-hvm. I don't know if you can mix hvm and non-hvm domains on the same xen hypervisor, tough.
[19:45:59] <DIGITAL39> I don't think I can install solaris, this installer is so unlike vista, I can't handle it....jk of course
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[19:46:51] <tsoome> DIGITAL39:  in that case the installer is least of your worries
[19:47:39] <nachox> plus the installer is being worked on
[19:47:46] <DIGITAL39> well that makes me want to ditch everything and run solaris exclusively
[19:47:49] <DIGITAL39> lol
[19:48:02] <vmlemon> Get a better installer - choose Solaris
[19:48:12] <DIGITAL39> haha
[19:48:19] <DIGITAL39> should I install kerberos?
[19:48:31] <DIGITAL39> waiting for "do you need it"
[19:48:37] <iron_angel> hehe...
[19:48:42] <iron_angel> if you don't use it, install it later.
[19:48:51] <tsoome> if you asking that - no you shouldnt
[19:48:56] <iron_angel> in fact, IIRC it gets installed anyway, that's just prompting to configure it.
[19:49:50] <tsoome> iron_angel: indeed, since its been asked in configuration stage
[19:50:40] <DIGITAL39> this name service question, is it asking about using these services or hosting these services, the install guide says just answer none, but I am curious
[19:51:44] <iron_angel> using. I'd say use DNS, but yeah, either way.
[19:51:57] <iron_angel> serving that stuff is set up post-install.
[19:52:14] <iron_angel> Though I had my U2 acting as a DNS server about 5 minutes after installation.
[19:53:10] <tsoome> DIGITAL39:  do you kow  what DNS server is and how its configured? apparently you have no clue
[19:54:05] <DIGITAL39> I do, but the question did not say whether it was having you enter information for using dns, such as the dns servers you will be accessing or if you were setting up dns servers on that machine
[19:54:19] <Reidms-420R> are you using DHCP?
[19:54:22] <DIGITAL39> new to solaris so it wasn't clear
[19:54:22] <tsoome> if you are installing the os, there is NO way to configure any services you are going to provide with this os
[19:54:40] <tsoome> its all about setting up the machine, nothing more, nothing less
[19:54:53] <vmlemon> If you use DHCP, give it anything, and it'll automatically get the correct settings on boot/connect
[19:55:08] <Reidms-420R> not if you have a run of the mill router
[19:55:21] <Reidms-420R> gotta edit /etc/nodename
[19:55:22] <tsoome> if windows installer asks about dns server, will you think its trying to set up dns server?
[19:55:31] <Reidms-420R> or your hostname will be unkown
[19:55:46] <nachox> no
[19:56:01] <Reidms-420R> tsoome- I dont even remember how windows installs
[19:56:06] <Reidms-420R> lol
[19:56:20] <DIGITAL39> no but this isn't windows and I have never seen a solaris installer so it was just a question
[19:56:23] <nachox> Reidms-420R is right, i was talking about the windows crap
[19:56:34] <tsoome> Reidms-420R:  thats good for you, since it's still pita
[19:57:12] <Reidms-420R> pita?
[19:57:25] <tsoome> indeed
[19:58:02] <Reidms-420R> Thats some pretty good bread
[19:58:07] <tsoome> ever tryed to play around with windows installer, *without* wiping the hard disk?;)
[19:58:24] <Reidms-420R> lol
[19:58:38] <vmlemon> I'm behind an "integrated router" (el cheapo ADSL modem with DHCP and DNS server functions), and my box's DNS name is found automatically (it's assigned to the MAC address), but I still have to set the hostname manually for Solaris
[19:59:09] <Reidms-420R> I remember that :P--- That makes me love Solaris's unconfigure tool even more
[19:59:33] <Reidms-420R> same here vmlemon
[20:00:00] <vmlemon> I've had a Windows 2000 install attacked whilst configuring the networking settings in the installer, once
[20:00:01] <Samy> So, I'm broke. And latest Solaris Internals has networking documentation.
[20:00:06] <Samy> Do I buy it? :-P
[20:00:28] <CIA-26> marks: 6576474 cannot share directory on zfs filesystems with mountpoint set to legacy
[20:00:29] <CIA-26> apersson: 6563686 IP's snmp instrumentation can panic with memory allocation failure
[20:00:30] <CIA-26> ceastha: 6575513 /bin/du -d in Solaris 10 hangs in pathconf on a symlink on stale NFS mount
[20:00:52] <vmlemon> I did set it up in a virtual machine deliberately so it could get attacked, and infested with malware, though
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[20:01:18] <Reidms-420R> lol
[20:01:52] <vmlemon> (Since I hate Windows with a passion, and I was bored)
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[20:02:13] <EchoBinary> LOL
[20:02:16] <Reidms-420R> "Operating the Infested" a true story about Windows, in theater this Fall.
[20:02:36] <vmlemon> Hah
[20:02:54] <EchoBinary> infected -> zombie...
[20:03:26] <vmlemon> I had a Windows 98 VM that I would spend hours installing stuff like BonziBuddy, and various adware and malware on, at one time, too ;)
[20:03:29] <EchoBinary> sounds like 28 days later
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[20:03:52] <FrostCS> "A plot to destroy the human race: A Microsoft Biography"
[20:04:13] <Reidms-420R> lol
[20:04:20] <vmlemon> The Windows 2000 thing was an attempt to see how long the installation would last, unattended, and I left Wireshark running on the host to capture the attack traffic
[20:04:35] <vmlemon> Had about 500MB of the stuff, in the end
[20:04:42] <Reidms-420R> "28 virus installs later"
[20:04:59] <Reidms-420R> lol
[20:05:07] <vmlemon> Gotta love Insecure Out Of The Box OSes, though
[20:05:08] <fortytwo_> only 28?
[20:05:16] <fortytwo_> seems abit low to me :-)
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[20:05:57] <Reidms-420R> lol
[20:06:07] <vmlemon> Of course, you can install the awesome attack vector that is Insecure Internet Services, on your new (in)"secure" Windows "Server" OS
[20:06:07] <Reidms-420R> Ubuntu is one of those vmlemon
[20:06:56] <FrostCS> "Do You like Pain?" "We have Just the Operating System for You!"
[20:06:57] * vmlemon happens to be using Kubuntu, just now
[20:07:34] * freakazoid0223 is running 7.04 :)
[20:07:49] <vmlemon> Incoming ICMP connectivity is disabled on the router, though and the only port accessible from outside is TCP port 80
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[20:08:35] <vmlemon> "Death By Windows"
[20:08:52] <DIGITAL39> it still falls back on the user to make the os more secure
[20:10:07] <FrostCS> Yea, sure, "I expect my user to have all 41 security certifications in order to use me"
[20:10:36] <vmlemon> Microsoft - Only Our Windows Come Pre-broken
[20:10:42] <FrostCS> I also expect all grand mothers to have police training, and atleast a 5th dan karate skill incase they get mugged.
[20:12:08] <DIGITAL39> yeah but if people can't do some of the simple things in windows I find it hard to believe it would be easier for them to do similar things on linux, even if linux is installing more secure
[20:12:26] <DIGITAL39> don't get me wrong Im not promoting windows, but I do believe a lot of the problems are user error
[20:12:36] <DIGITAL39> not that the os doesn't have plenty
[20:12:59] <Reidms-420R> lol vmlemon I did not mean any offense by the Ubuntu thing- but once it is updated- its not that bad on security
[20:13:17] <FrostCS> I could also argue linux's security, but it's atleast better then windows..
[20:13:27] <vmlemon> I've just installed it, and finished updating the components in it
[20:13:30] <FrostCS> but you have to learn, that Solaris isn't linux either.
[20:13:32] <Reidms-420R> agreed FrostCS
[20:13:51] <vmlemon> And Linux certainly isn't Solaris, of course
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[20:14:02] <FrostCS> I use logic everyday, and if something is wrong to begin with, it can never be right.
[20:14:19] <freakazoid0223> I think linux suffers from trying to be everything to everybody
[20:14:27] <DIGITAL39> so you are saying solaris is much more secure than linux (from someone that doesn't know)
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[20:15:04] <RElling> DIGITAL39: can't answer that question without defining "Linux" and "Solaris"
[20:15:17] <twincest> remember the solaris telnetd and ld.so vulnerabilities - out-of-the-box remote root ;-)
[20:15:29] <vmlemon> Is Solaris designed primarily as a server/workstation system, or is it suitable for desktop use?
[20:15:32] <FrostCS> I'm not on a training payroll now, so I think you best find your answer with google. to learn what solaris actually "is"
[20:15:49] <vmlemon> (Of course people have different ideas of "desktop", "workstation" and "server" use)
[20:15:52] <Reidms-420R> vmlemon I use it as a Desktop
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[20:17:05] * vmlemon wonders why Solaris hasn't managed to get the consumer appeal that Linux is starting to achieve, even though it has the backing of a large corporation
[20:17:23] <FrostCS> corporation backing has nothing to do with appeal
[20:17:32] <vmlemon> I suppose not being promoted as a desktop/consumer system has a lot to do with it
[20:17:33] <FrostCS> look at adult diapers..
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[20:17:57] <Reidms-420R> lol
[20:18:05] <RElling> I blame the OSF.  They caused Sun to go to CDE, just about the time Motif was dying.
[20:18:10] <vmlemon> Not exactly appealing or trendy, but a minority of people do use them
[20:18:19] <pfn> solaris hasn't been open source/free long enough to gain consumer appeal
[20:18:27] <pfn> linux has a decade-long headstart
[20:18:41] <elektronkind> plenty of reasons to promote it as the server OS to use, though. Not every OS has to also end up as a compelling desktop OS.
[20:18:46] <oninoshiko> i dont think open source is a major cause for appeal
[20:18:51] <pfn> RElling, well, CDE, at the time, was far more advanced than anything available
[20:19:01] <kito> and most people panic when they don't see a /root dir and the default root shell != bash
[20:19:03] <pfn> oninoshiko, it has the word-of-mouth fanboyism surrounding it
[20:19:07] <vmlemon> I guess the questions to ask are "What do I want to do?" and "Is this suitable for my needs?"
[20:19:09] * elektronkind is firmly in the "mac on the desktop, solaris in the data center" kind of guy
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[20:19:19] <kito> elektronkind amen brother
[20:19:26] <elektronkind> er s/kind of guy/camp
[20:19:26] <pfn> mac is stupid for its own reasons
[20:19:42] <RElling> advanced is 5 feet under, heading to 6.  Nice to see GNOME at least has some legs (KDE?)
[20:19:50] <oninoshiko> pfn: oh, well yes, but i dont make desicsions based on the word of fanboys
[20:19:52] <pfn> for something you use so often, the stupid mouse acceleration is garbage
[20:20:12] <pfn> oninoshiko, well, marketing has a lot to do with success... fanboyism is one such way...
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[20:20:38] <DIGITAL39> as the token solaris idiot I can say from someone who has never used it why I havn't and that is that I really know nothing about it, I've seen an uptime screen shot and raves about how well it works as a server, but never any desktop/workstation stories.
[20:20:39] <elektronkind> everyone hates a fanboy, but loves to be one.
[20:20:48] <vmlemon> Of course, Solaris could potentially gain an advantage in the consumer space, with Sun's backing, since they could legally license things like multimedia codecs
[20:20:53] <RElling> elektronkind: yeah, but it took Apple 10 years to make the Mac as friendly as the Lisa
[20:20:59] <vmlemon> Which is harder for Linux distributions
[20:21:02] <oninoshiko> now fangirls... those get people
[20:21:03] * EchoBinary likes fangirls
[20:21:07] <EchoBinary> ;)
[20:21:18] <vmlemon> *license and supply
[20:21:19] <oninoshiko> jinx
[20:21:50] <pfn> there's plenty of linux uptime screenshots...
[20:22:08] <kito> if sun had any clue about UI, I'm sure their desktop share would be higher
[20:22:23] <oninoshiko> did they ever fix the "linux cant keep track of uptimes in 2.6" bug?
[20:22:52] <elektronkind> what, 2.6 went to providing BogoUptime or something?
[20:23:01] <DIGITAL39> the screenshot comment I only meant that's about all of solaris I had seen before I started the installer
[20:23:22] <delewis> DIGITAL39, Sun originally was a workstation company.
[20:23:42] <delewis> Sun was making professional, UNIX workstations while Apple was still producing Apple 2e's.
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[20:24:06] <vmlemon> Of course, anything is better than Windows, if it helps to bring more diversity, compared to the homogenous "Windows Everywhere" approach that Microsoft wants to see
[20:24:41] <elektronkind> I'm sure you can find plenty of "$OS everywhere" people no matter what camp you look at.
[20:24:50] <delewis> vmlemon, I doubt anyone cares about your anti-Microsoft rubbish. Take it elsewhere, please. This isn't #Linux or #yay_i_found_a_real_platform
[20:24:52] <oninoshiko> elektronkind : i think they spead up ticks or somthing without increaseing the count that tracks uptime (so it would overflow quickly)
[20:24:59] <vmlemon> Hah
[20:25:16] <RElling> TX makes for cool desktop screenshots, http://blogs.sun.com/Stephen/entry/trusted_jds_screenshots
[20:26:19] <elektronkind> hey relling, I've got a quirky ZFS/Oracle interaction issue to bounce off ya if you're interested in hearing it
[20:26:55] <RElling> elektronkind: only if it is quirky
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[20:27:12] <DIGITAL39> delewis: I believe that is one of the reasons that they have do not have as large a following in the consumer market, a lot of people don't know things like that, before today I knew very very little about solaris, not that I have gained a lot of knowledge, but I just think it isn't in people face enough what can actually be done, what it looks like etc, my first opinion of the installer is oh god I have to deal with an ugly interfac
[20:27:55] <DIGITAL39> I have used kde in linux of course, but never seen it on solaris, if I had known before that it can run kde I might have tried it before today
[20:28:00] <delewis> no clueful Solaris user actually deals with the ugly, interactive interface.
[20:28:20] <delewis> the interactive installer is being "worked on", though.
[20:28:25] <elektronkind> I've got a zpool (s10u3, two disks mirrored) where I tried to detach one of the submirrors for maintenance, but the zpool detach command hung... and continued to do so until Oracle 10g (10.1) was shut down... then the 'zpool detach' command completed with the submirror detached. I'm trying to figure out what mechanisim within ZFS would lock that op up, and why Oracle could tickle it.
[20:28:30] <delewis> for cosmetic-centric users such as yourself.
[20:28:32] <pfn> delewis, yeah, they deal with the ugly console-based interface instead  ;-)
[20:28:47] <RElling> DIGITAL39: fortunately, the installer is getting completely reworked.
[20:28:51] <delewis> pfn, text is text when it goes over a 9600 baud serial line.
[20:29:05] <pfn> delewis, why 9600... too slow  :p
[20:29:09] <twincest> i used the interactive text installer on a 9600bps serial line this week
[20:29:12] <twincest> am i clueful? :-D
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[20:29:22] <delewis> I was referring to Custom Jumpstart. :-P
[20:29:44] <twincest> i almost used jumpstart, but too much effort to learn
[20:29:45] * pfn doesn't have enough boxes to make use of jumpstart
[20:29:56] <DIGITAL39> I really don't care about the installer I was just saying that I hadn't seen anything different and just making a comment on the talk earlier about the consumer success of solaris that a lot of people know nothing about solaris, a lot of consumers are intersted in looks, just look at ugly vista
[20:30:02] <delewis> it takes 10 minutes to setup with JET.
[20:30:03] <RElling> elektronkind: good question... I think that floated past the list recently... I don't know the answer, though.  I'd merely speculate (poorly)
[20:30:12] <delewis> its hardly complicated.
[20:30:17] <elektronkind> RElling: nothing you need to immediately research or anything... :) was just wondering if, off the top of your head, you heard about it.
[20:30:26] <delewis> my laptop serves are my portable Jumpstart server
[20:30:27] <twincest> i'm sure it's not hard, but i can do interactive installs without reading anything
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[20:30:33] <twincest> and i install solaris like once a year :)
[20:30:40] <elektronkind> RElling: ah yes, that post was mine. A minor problem in the scheme of things for me, but one that bugs me in the back of my head.
[20:30:53] <vmlemon> Of course, you could just use what you are happy with/works best for you, or spend time finding an alternative if you want
[20:32:15] <pfn> twincest, once a year sounds often
[20:32:20] <RElling> elektronkind: unfortunately, I can't keep up with S10 ZFS very well... too many improvements in the NV builds to remember what actually is in S10u3.  Off to get b68 later today, which has ZFS FMA phase 2 integrated.
[20:32:20] * pfn has installed solaris once....
[20:32:27] <oninoshiko> thats kinda my philosiphy... im not much of an evangelest
[20:32:39] <pfn> oh, make it twice
[20:32:42] <pfn> twice ever  :)
[20:32:43] <DIGITAL39> vmlemon: that's what I was doing by getting solaris, I just thought I would chime in on why consumer success might be low
[20:32:55] <pfn> once like 10 years ago
[20:33:00] <pfn> and once again just last week  :)
[20:33:37] <vmlemon> It is interesting to try alternatives, though, and see what folks are coming up with
[20:33:47] <delewis> consumers have zero interest in Solaris, and that's perfectly acceptable. There's no reason why they should use Solaris.
[20:34:18] <RElling> DIGITAL39: I think it is marketing.  Sun doesn't target the Windows desktop market.  (allusion: when Sun ate CDE, all of the OSF members defected to Windows-NT)
[20:34:21] <delewis> and certainly no reason to have interest in it other than to know Solaris makes the world work.
[20:34:30] <pfn> delewis, something like zfs is useful for a consumer
[20:35:02] <vmlemon> Best not to thrust anything on them, and let them discover alternatives on their own, or stick with what they like/know
[20:35:29] <pfn> although, windows and osx are getting on that ballpark
[20:35:34] <pfn> with volume shadow copy and time machine
[20:35:35] <delewis> most consumers, let alone production shops don't require their data to be 100% valid at any given time, so no, ZFS isn't applicable to the consumer.
[20:36:07] <pfn> delewis, consumers always need their data to be valid, it's less important, but it's necessar
[20:36:16] <oninoshiko> where most is atleast 80%
[20:37:16] <oninoshiko> pfn: i define "need" as "i loose a non-iesignificat sum of money if this is not there"
[20:37:39] <DIGITAL39> I don't know that they have zero interest in solaris, its more like they have zero interest in something they know nothing about, if they had the facts out there then they could make a better decision
[20:37:41] <oninoshiko> hrm... wow... i want (not need) spell check
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[20:38:08] <delewis> DIGITAL39, why? Windows or OS X accomplishes their goals just as well as Solars wold.
[20:38:11] <vmlemon> It could solve some of the data-loss related frustration that consumers come across, though
[20:38:36] <delewis> consumers (a) don't give a fuck if "Stable" interface "foo" is broken in the next release (b) consumers don't care about backwards compatibility
[20:39:05] <delewis> Solaris has totally different design goals than what most consumers are looking for.
[20:39:06] <pfn> delewis, they do care, they just don't understand that they do
[20:39:10] <oninoshiko> flying 1st class would solve some of the space related frustration of airline coustomers
[20:39:14] <vmlemon> But not everyone knows about or cares about filesystems or operating systems, and just want the "Magic Computer" to do what they want
[20:39:19] <vmlemon> it to
[20:39:41] <RElling> I want a girlfriend like that :-)
[20:39:45] <pfn> oninoshiko, see, now that's a different topic, the solution is there, but inaccessible to most
[20:39:48] <DIGITAL39> I don't know about that, I think it is ease of use, tons of people are technologically handicapped, they can check gmail and that's about it, windows makes things very point and click so I think stable is important but if it is less easy to use they would prefer the easier environment
[20:40:07] <pfn> oninoshiko, in this case, the solution is cost-prohibitive
[20:40:28] <pfn> I guess, one could say, using zfs is clue-prohibitive
[20:40:28] <pfn> :p
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[20:40:38] <vmlemon> I think the "Ooh Shiny" factor has a lot to do with things
[20:40:43] <oninoshiko> pfn on the contrary it IS accessable to most, its not THAT cost prohibitive... but the costs are things the consumer doesnt want to incurr
[20:40:53] <pfn> it's cost prohibitive
[20:41:00] <pfn> I cannot afford $10,000 on a first class plane ticket
[20:41:03] * pfn flies trans-pacific
[20:41:12] <DIGITAL39> when I hear about people starting to use linux they are using ubuntu, not all but a lot, it makes things easier and has an ok interface
[20:41:12] <pfn> and that's all there is to it
[20:41:20] <DIGITAL39> you don't hear about a lot of first time linux people using slackware
[20:41:29] <RElling> elektronkind: were you using Oracle in zvols or just a file system?
[20:41:30] <DIGITAL39> same thing, but takes a little more work to do things
[20:41:51] <oninoshiko> pfn zfs is also cost prohibitive, its just not a monitary cost... its about retraining, and getting all their programs to work (which they have an investment of money in)
[20:41:58] * elektronkind did, on infomagic CDROMS that included a sunsite and tsx11 mirror cdrom (when it all could fit on a cdrom)
[20:42:21] <elektronkind> man, I think I still might have those CDs somewhere
[20:42:22] <oninoshiko> so for the average consumer the costs outway the advantages
[20:42:31] <pfn> oninoshiko, notice, I say clue-prohibitive  ;-)
[20:42:44] <pfn> 11:40 <pfn> I guess, one could say, using zfs is clue-prohibitive
[20:42:52] <vmlemon> Time isn't cheap for everyone, either
[20:43:08] <vmlemon> Even if they have a lot of money
[20:43:17] <EchoBinary> ? zfs is easy to learn from what ive read
[20:43:46] <oninoshiko> EchoBinary : its not su much learning zfs, as the rest of the baggage that comes with it
[20:44:07] <EchoBinary> liek what?
[20:44:19] <vmlemon> A whole new OS, maybe?
[20:44:28] <oninoshiko> everone here is at least somewhat experenced in unix-like systems, so its no big deal, but to the lay person a transision to solaris is somewhat tramatic
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[20:44:55] <EchoBinary> lay person = windows admin?
[20:45:05] <RElling> oninoshiko: my wife runs Solaris, but all she cares about is Firefox and Thunderbird :-)
[20:45:06] <EchoBinary> afaik zfs has been ported in some form over to all the others
[20:45:16] <EchoBinary> including os x
[20:45:19] <oninoshiko> lay person = windows user
[20:45:27] <vmlemon> I've seen people freak out just looking at a BIOS setup screen, or an MS-DOS prompt (thinking that the machine is "broken)
[20:45:30] <pfn> RElling, for the most part, that's all that's necessary, luckily
[20:46:22] <EchoBinary> if someone freaks out looking at a BIOS screen they have no place in a NOC or with admin dudies
[20:46:24] <EchoBinary> err
[20:46:25] <EchoBinary> duties*
[20:46:44] <pfn> EchoBinary, we're talking a regular, normal person
[20:46:47] <oninoshiko> we arnt talking about admins
[20:46:53] <EchoBinary> well true
[20:47:16] <vmlemon> And that's the typical "Magic Computer user" who just wants to write a letter using a certain popular word processor
[20:47:21] <EchoBinary> id figure regular users wouldnt even know  - by th etime they use it its been "front ended"
[20:47:34] <vmlemon> I was referring to (with the BIOS and *DOS prompt thing)
[20:47:47] <DIGITAL39> vmlemon: that's sorta why I was pointing some of the things to how solaris looks, consumers are going to see the default look and probably freak, but from what I heard earlier it will run kde, so maybe if there was more information on using solaris as a desktop with the interfaces consumers prefer more consumers would use it
[20:47:52] <palowoda> Your talking about normal users on this channel?
[20:47:58] <vmlemon> Yes
[20:48:33] <vmlemon> The ordinary person in the street who happens to have a regular inexpensive Windows machine
[20:48:36] <oninoshiko> DIGITAL39 : default is now Gnome, IIRC
[20:49:02] <DIGITAL39> haha sorry, didn't get that far yet in using solaris
[20:49:52] <oninoshiko> no worries
[20:49:58] <DIGITAL39> I got solaris because I heard it was an awesome server platform and because I heard you can use it as a desktop, so in this case I can be considered a 'consumer', all of you guys know solaris
[20:50:14] <DIGITAL39> I don't even know what the default interface is
[20:51:12] <vmlemon> I used CDE when I used Solaris, although Sun are planning on phasing it out in favour of GNOME exclusively, as far as I know
[20:51:15] <DIGITAL39> the lack of information out to consumers if what I feel as a 'consumer' might be the bigger problem with solaris's performance in the consumer market, its not that users don't care about stability, or the features of zfs, its that they don't know about it
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[20:51:58] <DIGITAL39> I look at the wikipedia page on zfs, wow 16eib, sweet I can have a lot of porn and mp3, etc, but what benefit does it have (Not actually asking)
[20:52:40] <EchoBinary> DIGITAL39: most consumers dont care abotu technical details, they care about how they can apply the benefits - thats the selling point.
[20:53:01] <oninoshiko> wikipeadia isnt an advert anyway... youd have to know to look there
[20:53:05] <EchoBinary> they could care less if its zfs, etx3, or ntfs
[20:53:17] <pfn> well, there's a big selling point for zfs for me
[20:53:21] <EchoBinary> as long as they can DO it - they will want it
[20:53:22] <pfn> and it's the "free" snapshots
[20:53:23] <DIGITAL39> exactly, you see ubuntu tutorials with screen shots of what you can do with it and how to do things, but I don't see pages promoting solaris that way
[20:53:27] <vmlemon> I'd use Solaris pretty much exclusively, if it came with KDE from the get-go, and had read-write support for ext*
[20:53:29] <DIGITAL39> im sure there are some, but not enough of them
[20:53:42] <EchoBinary> DIGITAL39: do it up then :)
[20:53:48] <twincest> vmlemon: if you were using solaris exclusively, why would you need ext2? :)
[20:54:00] <DIGITAL39> haha yeah me, the guy who tsoome was challenging on knowing what dns was
[20:54:05] <pfn> vmlemon, why would you need r/w support for extX if you use sol exclusively
[20:54:41] <vmlemon> To migrate data from a Linux partition, but the write support would be so that I could just move the data and write to ext* if I needed to
[20:54:49] <DIGITAL39> not that I couldn't I just mean I know jack about solaris, not even enough to know if that dialog was about setting up servers or just the system settings
[20:55:02] <pfn> vmlemon, that should be easy without the r/w support
[20:55:11] <vmlemon> I guess taking a screenshot of "Linux" or "Solaris" would be like taking a screenshot of an Apache2 installation
[20:55:45] <vmlemon> It doesn't exactly have a visual form, as a product, other than what you see when the pieces are assembled
[20:55:59] <vmlemon> (Unless you count the boot text)
[20:56:10] <EchoBinary> i took a screen shot of my back-end once with a photocopier. my teacher was most displeased
[20:56:21] <pfn> vmlemon, and the solaris boot text is quiet by default...
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[20:57:52] <DIGITAL39> when you see an install of windows or ubuntu it is only of what comes with the system, if solaris comes with gnome by default that would be enough to show users what it looks like, when I first heard about solaris as a desktop I was thinking ugly java looking boxes, not gnome or kde, which people do care about
[20:58:13] <vmlemon> Strangely, the most compatible and functional FS I've found for moving stuff between Linux and Solaris has been UDF, since both kernels have fairly high quality RW support for it
[20:58:14] <DIGITAL39> everyone here can do things from the command line, but a lot of people can't so it matters, even if it doesn't for us
[20:58:24] <cmihai> DIGITAL39: that's silly, there's only ONE OS that uses a full blow Java Desktop
[20:58:38] <cmihai> And guess what: It's not Sun Solaris with Java Desktop System :-)
[20:58:47] <pfn>  jnode
[20:58:48] <pfn> mmm
[20:58:51] <cmihai> It's Novell Netware
[20:59:06] <pfn> DIGITAL39, actually, "java" isn't "java looking"
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[20:59:19] <pfn> not since 1.4 for many platforms
[20:59:29] <DIGITAL39> I know
[20:59:45] <DIGITAL39> but the older gui apps in java looked horrible
[20:59:51] <pfn> yes, older
[20:59:54] <vmlemon> Does "Java" even come with a "Java Look"? (Except Swing and AWT, which can use the host environment's widgets)
[21:00:01] <palowoda> Don't use old stuff.
[21:00:06] <twincest> vmlemon: the Metal L&F in swing
[21:00:08] <pfn> vmlemon, java has a java look, it's called metal/ocean
[21:00:15] <pfn> twincest, ocean in 1.6+
[21:00:15] <vmlemon> I see
[21:00:41] <CIA-26> vikram: 6575316 snode flags has run out of space
[21:00:41] <CIA-26> lling: 6561658 xattrs aren't enabled on zfs root filesystem, weirdness with mount output, 6498096 zfs noatime broken with legacy mount
[21:00:42] <CIA-26> timf: 6509186 "zfs set" should list properties in alphabetical order
[21:00:46] <pfn> AWT can probably be called the "java look"
[21:00:49] <vmlemon> I think of the Metal interface, when I think of GUI Java apps for some reason, after I had a play with the sample apps
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[21:04:45] <iron_angel> I can't decide if I like Metal or Ocean better, honestly.
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[21:05:59] <DIGITAL39> some java apps I can't even tell they are java apps anymore, on the windows platform at least
[21:06:07] <DIGITAL39> I mean, by the appearance I can't tell
[21:06:15] <DIGITAL39> before you always could
[21:07:03] * iron_angel nods.
[21:07:10] <pfn> iron_angel, metal and ocean look the same to me...
[21:07:14] <timsf> Hurrah, my first Solaris putback!
[21:07:18] * vmlemon notes that he would need to use nearly all his Linux partition to hold the data from /dev/hdb1 (60GB worth), in order to reformat /dev/hdb1 to UDF
[21:07:26] <iron_angel> really?
[21:07:33] <vmlemon> Yes
[21:07:59] <vmlemon>  /dev/sda1              72G  3.0G   66G   5% /
[21:08:04] <vmlemon>  /dev/sdb1             147G   60G   80G  43% /media/hdb1
[21:08:18] <pfn> nice mountpoint name  :p
[21:08:43] <vmlemon> That's interesting, Linux seems to have switched my /dev/hd* nodes to /dev/sd* nodes, after upgrading Kubuntu
[21:08:54] <pfn> vmlemon, latest linux kernel does that
[21:08:59] <vmlemon> I see
[21:09:22] <vmlemon> Probably missed out on the transition, after spending time with Solaris ;)
[21:09:50] <iron_angel> I do like the consistency though... Now it's all sd.
[21:09:56] <iron_angel> well, almost all.
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[21:10:40] <vmlemon> Hmm, I was using 2.6.20 on Gentoo, and all my nodes were /dev/hda
[21:10:57] <vmlemon> Same version on *buntu, yet they're /dev/sd*
[21:11:04] <iron_angel> config option. You can use the libata drivers for PATA now, and if you do, you get /dev/sd*
[21:11:10] <vmlemon> Must have been patched up to hell
[21:11:24] <iron_angel> if you don't, you still get /dev/hd*
[21:11:28] * vmlemon hasn't had *buntu on his desktop for nearly a year, now
[21:11:51] <iron_angel> I need to try 2.6.21 or so to see if it likes SATA DVD+RWs yet.
[21:12:02] <iron_angel> 2.6.18 does, but 2.6.20 broke that.
[21:12:15] <vmlemon> I was not impressed by ALSA on 2.6.21 on Gentoo, it was totally unusable
[21:12:32] <iron_angel> really... Hmm, not good.
[21:12:37] <iron_angel> staticky or something?
[21:12:41] <vmlemon> It wasn't possible to actually use it with the separate driver pack, or with the inbuilt drivers
[21:12:52] <vmlemon> My card was detected, though
[21:13:13] <iron_angel> hm.
[21:13:14] <vmlemon> But I couldn't actually utilize the damn thing :(
[21:13:27] <vmlemon> So I stayed with .20 forever, literally
[21:14:29] <tsoome1> i cant use this and I cant use that - why the hell did you let this crap to waste your disk space then?
[21:14:56] <vmlemon> I wanted to have a play with some of the new features in it, at the time
[21:15:24] <vmlemon> And to keep things generally at the latest versions
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[21:16:00] <iron_angel> I'm getting a little annoyed with the arbitrary changes in what should be a stable branch, but they'll level back off in the near future. In the interim, there's no obligation to upgrade.
[21:16:21] <pfn> linux dropped the 2.odd/2.even dev/stable convention
[21:16:22] <pfn> ....
[21:16:23] <pfn> losers
[21:16:33] <iron_angel> well, not officially, but...
[21:16:43] <vmlemon> I think compulsively wanting the very latest version of a package, the minute it's released says a lot ;)
[21:16:53] <pfn> iron_angel, well, I don't see a 2.7 anywhere...  ;-)
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[21:17:38] <iron_angel> pfn: right, they haven't officially started development on the next branch yet, and they're still arguing if the next stable will be 2.8 or 3.0. Though, with all the VM changes, 2.6 probably should have been 3.0
[21:18:57] * vmlemon thinks that a port of VMware Server/Workstation to Solaris would "seal the deal" for him
[21:19:12] <iron_angel> that would be a nice thing to have, yeah.
[21:19:13] <pfn> vmlemon, or even a stable xen with vt-x support
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[21:19:32] <vmlemon> If you don't have the in-CPU support for VT*, it's not much use
[21:19:46] <pfn> vmlemon, but that's the point
[21:19:47] <vmlemon> (Xen, that is)
[21:19:59] <pfn> if you have support for VT/pacifica, then xen becomes much nicer
[21:20:17] <vmlemon> I ought to get a new machine soon, given by how old this one is
[21:20:25] <vmlemon> If I could afford a new one, that is
[21:20:31] <pfn> all my machines are 5+ years old  :(
[21:20:55] <pfn> 1 p4 2.26ghz is my main windows workstation, and I have 3 p3-1200's, firewall/router, htpc and linux box
[21:21:08] <pfn> my installation of solaris runs in vmware server on the windows box...
[21:21:18] <vmlemon> Mine's 5+ years (2 PATA drives, P4 Northwood 2.53GHz, 512MB RAM)
[21:21:34] <vmlemon> ATI Radeon 9000 (which is probably ancient, by today's standards)
[21:21:36] <pfn>  well, I upgraded my box to 1.5gb of ram 6 months ago...
[21:21:46] <pfn> I upgraded to a radeon x1650pro 2 weeks ago
[21:21:52] <pfn> and a 24" lcd
[21:22:01] <pfn> prior to that, I had a 1st generation radeon aiw
[21:22:35] <pfn> I have 5 pata drives in my box, 2 45gb in raid0, and 3 90gb in raid5
[21:22:55] <vmlemon> I'm only using the ATI card, since it shipped in this machine, but I would use something less powerful, given the option
[21:23:05] <vmlemon> (Since I don't need accelerated 3D, and don't play games)
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[21:23:11] * pfn plays games a little
[21:23:27] <pfn> mostly command and conquer
[21:23:50] <rawn027> pfn: where would be a good place to start to write a web app in java
[21:23:53] <vmlemon> It hasn't seen a Windows-based OS directly on the metal for 2 years now, either
[21:24:05] <pfn> rawn027, you mean docs?
[21:24:05] <rawn027> i need to write a wrapper for JET for the project I am doing at work
[21:24:21] <rawn027> docs and such
[21:24:25] <rawn027> resources :)
[21:24:30] <pfn> depends, how well versed are you in java?
[21:24:39] <rawn027> i know java itself well
[21:24:50] <rawn027> i have only worked with J2SE
[21:25:12] <pfn> well, start with the j2ee apidocs, mostly of javax.servlet.http.HttpServlet
[21:25:12] <vmlemon> pfn: The mountpoint name is the *buntu default, by the way ;)
[21:25:23] <vmlemon> (for hdb)
[21:25:26] <pfn> pick a framework of your choice (I use my own mvc framework, and more lately, wicket)
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[21:26:12] <pfn> rawn027, other than that, pick a container of your choice, tomcat or jetty if you just need a servlet container
[21:26:25] <pfn> rawn027, and go off of the sample configurations presented (web.xml, and packaging structure)
[21:26:48] <pfn> hmm, need to see if xul/firefox supports soap... and how to use it...
[21:27:09] <rawn027> is it difficult to communicate with the server via a webapp?
[21:27:18] <pfn> communicate with what server?
[21:27:21] <pfn> and communicate by what means
[21:27:32] <pfn> depends on how you need to communicate
[21:27:51] <rawn027> i guess what this app needs to do is allow for easy provisioning of computers through JET
[21:27:56] <vmlemon> Do I have to install my own copy of Perl on Solaris, if I want to use CPAN?
[21:28:02] <pfn> I don't know JET, either
[21:28:07] <pfn> vmlemon, I don't see why you'd need to...
[21:28:17] <pfn> vmlemon, why can't you just perl -MCPAN -e shell
[21:28:18] <rawn027> you just need to run a few commands
[21:28:27] <rawn027> and you have a profile for each client
[21:28:40] <pfn> rawn027, so you need to run commands then... then that's just standard java
[21:28:57] <rawn027> i just want to present it in a meaningful way through the web
[21:29:03] <vmlemon> I guess I was expecting to find the 'cpan' command, although it's probably just a shell script with that line in it
[21:29:08] <rawn027> tomcat is pretty heavy duty isnt it
[21:30:11] <pfn> rawn027, not really
[21:30:34] <vmlemon> It does a lot of heavy lifting for a large number of sites, but I don't know if you could call it "heavy duty"
[21:30:47] <EchoBinary> ???1??? s? uo??d????d
[21:30:52] <vmlemon> o.O
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[21:31:39] <rawn027> pfn: woudl you use netbeans to get started?
[21:32:00] <pfn> rawn027, depends, possibly, I'm usually an eclipse user
[21:32:40] <pfn> when netbeans 6 comes out, I'll consider switching
[21:37:45] <rawn027> pfn: yeah netbeans 6 looks real nice but I have always used eclipse. I dont like how netbeans locks your code for some things
[21:38:37] <pfn> for the gui editor I hear
[21:38:39] * pfn shrugs
[21:38:43] <pfn> I don't use gui editors either
[21:39:02] <rawn027> makes for sloppy code and sloppier coders :)
[21:39:27] <cmihai> Eh, if you're doing UML / code generation / reverse engineering it tends to make things a little easier.
[21:39:44] <rawn027> everything has its place :)
[21:39:47] <pfn> I don't do uml or code generation
[21:39:52] <pfn> uml is bad, oh so sucky
[21:39:54] <cmihai> And they do come with some unit testing and such
[21:40:00] <asyd> uml rulez, bepl rulez
[21:40:09] <cmihai> Like IBM TTWorkBench
[21:40:10] <asyd> btw, is there a java decompiler in netbeans ?
[21:40:15] <pfn> asyd, no
[21:40:20] <pfn> use 'jad'
[21:40:33] <pfn> the problem with uml is that it's too fine-grained
[21:40:36] <asyd> doesn't work with the application I need to decompile :/
[21:40:55] <pfn> asyd, jad works great for me... it just doesn't have any new language feature support
[21:40:59] <pfn> no generics or enums...
[21:41:05] <pfn> you figure that out for yourself...
[21:41:38] <rawn027> pfn: do you know the diff between the Eclipse for Java Devs and Eclipse for Java EE Devs
[21:41:47] <rawn027> functionally
[21:41:52] <pfn> rawn027, the latter includes WTP, I'm guessing
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[21:48:30] <seanmcg> Hey Gman, I see Tim got his putback done there
[21:52:20] <sstallion> any SVM guys around?
[21:54:34] * Gman hasn't read mail yet, and on a staggering 4KB/s link atm
[21:55:10] * delewis knows the feeling
[21:55:30] <delewis> I'm at a conference center that supposedly has a 6Mb/s link, but there's roughly 300 consumers at the moment.
[21:56:00] <Gman> this is 'telecom high speed broadband'
[21:56:01] <Gman> :/
[21:56:40] <vmlemon> "Low Speed Broadband" a more fitting name? ;)
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[21:57:41] <rawn027> what would this project be called?
[21:58:18] <rawn027> in eclipse j2ee there are so many projects options
[22:00:51] <beholder> wow, reading indiana-discuss is awful.
[22:02:41] <rawn027> so consider the web console built into solaris
[22:02:47] <rawn027> in java terms what is that called?
[22:03:09] <trygvis> web application
[22:03:13] <rawn027> web server? enterprise application?
[22:03:26] <rawn027> trygvis: im trying to decode all my options in eclipse :)
[22:03:40] <iron_angel> is there a configuration file for OpenGL on SPARC?
[22:03:59] <iron_angel> I'm trying to track down why OpenGL isn't working right (cannot create context)
[22:04:35] <trygvis> rawn027: what do you want to create?
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[22:04:58] <rawn027> trygvis: i want to write an app that talks with the server its running on to control a lab environment
[22:05:22] <rawn027> trygvis: i am using JET now to jumpstart machines and I want to turn that into a web application
[22:05:47] <Gman> beholder, how so?
[22:06:16] <trygvis> if you're writing an app with java on both sides, use RMI
[22:06:27] <rawn027> RMI?
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[22:06:39] <rawn027> i dont think JET is written in java though
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[22:07:30] <beholder> Gman: Seems to be mostly bickering.
[22:07:45] <Gman> beholder, yeah, a little
[22:09:10] <rawn027> what does RMI stand for
[22:09:27] <rawn027> remote method invocation?
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[22:09:30] <rawn027> ;)
[22:10:42] <timsf> hi Gman
[22:11:02] <beholder> Gman: multiple threads with 100 replies that all start out innocently and turn into flaming.
[22:11:09] <Gman> hey timf
[22:14:33] <timsf> You all set for your trip then ?
[22:15:01] <stevel> 30 second maintenance notice: webapp restarting on www.opensolaris.org. might notice a hiccup or two
[22:15:20] <Triskelios> dun dun dun
[22:16:43] <stevel> done
[22:16:57] <stevel> for anyone who cares, you should now be able to toggle anonymous access to your repos via the web interface
[22:17:55] <Gman> timsf, barely
[22:18:00] <Gman> timsf, ask me on sunday night ;)
[22:18:19] <timsf> Wallet, passport tickets, that's about all you need.
[22:18:30] <timsf> Oh, and deodorant ;-)
[22:19:10] * vmlemon notes that everyday is a Sun-day, if you use Solaris
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[22:19:32] <e^ipi> i can't wait until vmlemon gets bored of the puns on the word "Sun"
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[22:20:40] <Triskelios> I'm sorry, I hope I wasn't responsible for bringing him here =P
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[22:24:33] <rawn027> what packages would I need to include in order to communicate with my system directly?
[22:24:50] <Gman> timsf, enough clean clothes for 4 weeks travel ;)
[22:25:20] <stevel> rawn027: SUNWcyborg-implant
[22:25:37] <e^ipi> heh
[22:25:51] <stevel> the dependencies are a bitch though. ;)
[22:26:01] <rawn027> ;)
[22:26:35] <rawn027> i'll start with java.io.*
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[22:27:02] <timsf> Gman, just need 4 t-shirts + shorts, and some washing powder.
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[22:27:15] <e^ipi> washing powder?
[22:27:20] <e^ipi> nancy....
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[22:27:23] <e^ipi> use sand, like a man
[22:27:23] <beholder> rawn027: I think you'll need to start with some hardware design before the libraries ;)
[22:27:25] <timsf> :-D
[22:27:35] <oninoshiko> bah... just get it at the destination
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[22:31:23] <twincest> what speed CPUs does an E6800 typically have?
[22:33:49] <beholder> How much should I expect to pay for a used E250?  I have a buddy that wants to sell one.
[22:34:11] <iron_angel> Hmm, depends on what's in it.
[22:34:31] <PerterB> stevel: you still have much to do with bugs.opensolaris.org?
[22:34:41] <stevel> perterb: i never did
[22:35:01] <PerterB> oh sorry, my mistake
[22:35:03] <stevel> other than forwarding questions to the people who would know :)
[22:35:07] <stevel> what's the issue?
[22:35:08] <beholder> iron_angel: Assume low end.
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[22:35:16] <PerterB> disappearing bugs :)
[22:35:37] <stevel> in general, best place to ask is website-discuss at opensolaris dot org
[22:35:49] <PerterB> for example,  6560174 shows up on http://www.opensolaris.org/os/bug_reports/boo_list/ but if you click on it it shows as unavailable
[22:35:52] <PerterB> ok
[22:35:53] <stevel> disappearing as in "a bug you submitted never made it" or "bugs that used to show up no longer do"
[22:35:58] <PerterB> the latter
[22:36:04] <iron_angel> beholder: Well, I may be all wet, but $150-$400, probably.
[22:36:17] <stevel> it's possible it got refiled/triaged into a cat/subcat that isn't viewable by b.o.o.
[22:36:21] <stevel> or got classified as a security bug
[22:36:22] <beholder> iron_angel: Ok I was going to offer him $100 CDN
[22:36:25] <iron_angel> More if it has something odd in it, like an FC card, large disks, XVR-600/1200 graphics, etc.
[22:36:42] <iron_angel> Offer away and see if he takes it :)
[22:36:47] <beholder> iron_angel: He knows nothing about the machine... hell it could have 4 CPU's and 8G of memory for all I know.
[22:36:56] <PerterB> it's an scsa bug, not very security related (as it happens this _is_ one I filed :)
[22:37:01] <iron_angel> Well, 2 CPUs at most, but yeah, could be lots of RAM.
[22:37:12] <stevel> perterb: i'm checking it now
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[22:37:16] <PerterB> ta!
[22:37:17] <stevel> it's not classified as a security bug
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[22:37:27] <stevel> it's possible that ieee1394/scsa1394 isn't published out to b.o.o.
[22:37:30] <stevel> i'll check on that
[22:38:25] <iron_angel> beholder: given that he knows nothing about it, yeah, 100's reasonable to start with.
[22:38:41] <PerterB> ta... I'm not too bothered myself, but it came up in a related thread on zfs-discuss (the poster there seemed to think other bugs were "disappearing", but this is the only concrete example I have)
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[22:39:51] <beholder> iron_angel: Wow CPU stats seem a bit low on it.  I just paid $25 for a Netra T1 with a faster CPU :)
[22:40:31] <iron_angel> the E250 is much more expandable though. 6 disk bays, for one.
[22:40:42] <beholder> Netra has 2?
[22:40:51] <iron_angel> IIRC, yeah.
[22:41:11] <stevel> perterb: i don't know how to confirm that, but trying to pull up any other bug report in ieee1394/scsa1394 has the same b.o.o. error message
[22:41:14] <iron_angel> Also, if you dislike serial consoles or the like, you can slap a framebuffer in the E250 and still have a slot for something else.
[22:41:19] <stevel> so i suspect that that is the case (the cat/subcat isn't published)
[22:41:25] <iron_angel> no UPA slots, though.
[22:41:28] <beholder> I wonder if I could boot the Netra somehow so that I could use both drives as a ZFS pool
[22:41:36] <stevel> i'll see if i can find out why, and if we can i'll have it start being pushed out to b.o.o.
[22:42:12] <PerterB> that would explain why I didn't find many pre-existing scsa bugs when I filed it! :)
[22:42:29] <iron_angel> beholder: external disk?
[22:42:54] <beholder> iron_angel: Hmm, I might be able to slap one on.  I don't think it could boot a USB stick though
[22:42:56] <PerterB> thanks for your help... so you're going to raise that, or should I mention it on website-discuss?
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[22:43:10] <iron_angel> beholder: nope, but it can boot external SCSI just fine.
[22:43:15] <stevel> perterb: i'll raise it
[22:43:26] <PerterB> lovely, thanks
[22:43:30] <beholder> iron_angel: I have an external scsi enclosure... but the drive inside is horribly noisy.
[22:43:55] <iron_angel> ack :(
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[22:44:20] <iron_angel> I'd suggest finding another, but that's not free. OTOH, I got 2x 73GB 15k from eBay for $40.
[22:45:11] <rawn027> im using the Sun Creator IDE right now
[22:45:13] <beholder> I think the drive I have in the enclosure is an old 50 pin SCSI-2 :)
[22:45:20] <beholder> I really should get a new one
[22:45:33] <iron_angel> foo, that's a minor prob :(
[22:45:40] <rawn027> how do i get access to the methos i wrote in one of the packages of the project
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[22:45:58] <iron_angel> I have two such. One two-position and one four-position. That last one came with an old SS10, with three of the four drives dead.
[22:46:05] <iron_angel> The fourth wound up in my NeXT cube :P
[22:46:30] <beholder> iron_angel: Very nice.  That was one of the few machines my arch farm didn't have :)
[22:46:53] <iron_angel> I actually managed to score 4 NeXTs. 2 fully work, one more just needs a sound box.
[22:47:09] <iron_angel> The last, well... both of my mono monitors are completely frogged :(
[22:47:20] <iron_angel> 1 cube and some slabs
[22:48:09] <beholder> iron_angel: I still have a Sparc 1+ sitting in my basement.  But it's not as cool as a NeXT box :)
[22:48:29] <iron_angel> If you have an SS5/10/20, it can run NeXTSTEP :)
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[22:48:51] <beholder> Was it the same hardware?
[22:48:52] <moazamraja> re all...
[22:48:54] <iron_angel> not counting OPENSTEP for Solaris, which I haven't tried yet.
[22:49:07] <iron_angel> Nope, but NeXTSTEP ran on x86, m68k, HPPA and SPARC.
[22:49:14] <moazamraja> is there an easy way to transfer routing table info from one machine to another?
[22:49:18] <iron_angel> OPENSTEP 4.2 dropped HPPA support though.
[22:49:37] <beholder> iron_angel: I have an HPPA sitting in the basement too.  HP-UX is horrible :(
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[22:49:49] <iron_angel> beholder: what model is it?
[22:50:00] <iron_angel> Apparently 11i isn't all that barfulous, but...
[22:50:09] <iron_angel> my two have NeXTSTEP and OpenBSD.
[22:50:12] <beholder> iron_angel:  Hmm, something/143
[22:50:22] <beholder> iron_angel: I haven't cracked it open in a long while
[22:50:40] <iron_angel> Ah...
[22:50:45] <beholder> iron_angel: Ahh, I was using NetBSD for my farm
[22:50:51] <iron_angel> Mine are 712s. pizza-boxen.
[22:51:07] <iron_angel> I've got a whole pile of weird arch machines around here...
[22:51:11] <beholder> iron_angel: Mine is about 70lbs and could withstand a bomb blast.
[22:51:26] <iron_angel> I need to get hold of AIX 5.2L to resurrect this RS/6000, too. It has 4.2, but that's ancient.
[22:51:36] <iron_angel> I have 5.3L, but that dropped support for the 604e ones.
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[22:52:02] <stevel> perterb: 'k. ieee1394/* has been added to the list.  it won't push out until tonight, but tomorrow you should be able to view it
[22:52:16] <beholder> iron_angel: Yeah it's hard to find
[22:52:42] <e^ipi> not that hard
[22:52:44] <beholder> iron_angel: I stuck to NetBSD on most of them.  That's what got me loving the Sparc systems.
[22:52:47] <PerterB> stevel: fast work... thanks!
[22:52:58] <iron_angel> I'm still waiting for 3 machines to arrive though: Sun Blade 2k, SGI Indigo2, SGI Indy.
[22:53:34] <beholder> iron_angel: I have an Indigo 2, it's purple and has "Batcave" written across the top in thick black maker.
[22:53:40] <victor__> indy...isn't that.. a 90's machine? :)
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[22:53:50] <iron_angel> Yeah, as is the Indigo2.
[22:54:04] <victor__> which one is the one that makes that cool sound while booting up?
[22:54:05] <iron_angel> beholder: yah, the one I got is a purple R4400/HighIMPACT.
[22:54:12] <iron_angel> Unfortunately, not the R10k :(
[22:54:19] <iron_angel> victor__: both. Indeed, most SGIs.
[22:54:26] <victor__> nice
[22:55:03] <beholder> iron_angel: I have a Dec Alpha as well, LCA-166.  The smallest 64 bit machine I own :)
[22:55:29] <iron_angel> nice. I've got a similar one, too.
[22:55:44] <iron_angel> DECStation 3000. Evidently they made two machines called that, one MIPS and one Alpha.
[22:55:47] <beholder> iron_angel: But the problem with these beasts is power consumption.  The Sparc's I can keep on all the time, they're super low consumption.  The HPPA, SGI and Alpha are terrible.
[22:55:50] <iron_angel> I have the Alpha version, but it's broken.
[22:56:11] <iron_angel> Hmm, I need to take a closer look at that
[22:56:29] <beholder> iron_angel: Get yourself a Kill-a-watt, they're great for measuring that kind of stuff
[22:56:53] <beholder> iron_angel: Sun makes spectacular hardware wrt power consumption.  The only thing lower is the 68k Macs
[22:57:09] <iron_angel> Yah, my Quadra 950 hardly draws anything.
[22:57:18] <iron_angel> The 8600 is a damn sight more power hungry.
[22:58:25] <iron_angel> OTOH, the 8600 is decently fast, too.
[22:58:57] <iron_angel> I want to get hold of an SGI Octane or Fuel, and maybe a JavaStation.
[22:59:11] <beholder> iron_angel: It's not about fast, it's about the cool factor of owning these machines that cost > $10k when they were new :)
[23:00:06] <iron_angel> very true :P
[23:00:21] <iron_angel> Right now the U80 is pretty much my star box, until the B2k arrives.
[23:00:26] <beholder> iron_angel: Plus it's neat that so much engineering went into this stuff.  My old Sparc boxes still run like the day they came out of the box.
[23:00:51] <iron_angel> Mine too, mostly. The SS10 is a bit wonky, but it's nothing a little TLC won't fix.
[23:01:00] <iron_angel> I think it's mostly that the Leo card in there runs too damn hot.
[23:01:47] <beholder> Hehe, I didn't have one of those
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[23:02:40] <iron_angel> I almost put in in my Ultra 2, then I realized that Solaris 10 has no support for it!
[23:03:15] <beholder> iron_angel:  Yeah, damn you Sun for not supporting 20 year old hardware! ;)
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[23:03:37] <iron_angel> hehe :P
[23:03:54] <beholder> iron_angel: I'm betting the guys who designed it don't even work there anymore
[23:04:02] <iron_angel> Besides, then I played with it, and it's glacially slow.
[23:04:33] <iron_angel> Well, I know that at least part of the Leo design team also worked on the XVR-1000, but I have no clue if they're still there.
[23:05:44] <vmlemon> Has anyone tried the Apple Lisa?
[23:06:28] <iron_angel> I've yet to find one!
[23:06:34] <boyd> I dont think it will catch on
[23:06:41] <iron_angel> I'd like to, though.
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[23:07:03] <iron_angel> Or find an Apple IIgs. There's a dude out there who designed a fairly modern ATA controller for the IIgs.
[23:07:36] <vmlemon> There was an Apple Lisa emulator in the works, but having access to the real hardware is much nicer
[23:08:37] <sahafeez> i have a harddrive and flash card reader for my C128
[23:08:47] * Triskelios appreciates hardware from before his time but doesn't have any interest in collecting completely useless junk (that said, my home mailserver is still an Indigo2...)
[23:09:31] <iron_angel> Yeah, my rule is I still have to be able to use it for something. Which in practice means only 32-bit and 64-bit machines.
[23:09:32] <vmlemon> I have an Apple Newton MessagePad 100, but it no longer functions
[23:09:47] <sahafeez> put it on ebay for parts. it will see
[23:09:49] <sahafeez> sell
[23:10:05] <vmlemon> That said, eBay was the very place I got it from :)
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