[00:00:16] <wesolows> That's not really the way most people look at operating systems, though some might say it's healthier.
[00:00:35] <CIA-17> blakej: 6553387 multiple failure modes in rd_phys_alloc's error path, 5041642 rd_phys_alloc passing kmem 'flags' to page_get_* routines
[00:05:10] <Cinder-> could be but luckily (in my view atleast) I'm not like most people ;)
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[00:28:50] <alanc> can we just delete opensolaris-discuss?
[00:29:06] <alanc> it's well beyond pointless...
[00:29:17] <richlowe> From the Cc or in general?
[00:29:21] <Cinder-> well you need one of those lists
[00:29:23] <richlowe> I doubt it's pointless.
[00:29:29] <richlowe> it lets everyone congregate on a list I ignore.
[00:29:33] <richlowe> it's useful to me, damnit! :)
[00:29:33] <Cinder-> otherwise they'll all get pointless
[00:30:22] <CSFrost> Well, a lot of communities have offtopic forums
[00:30:32] <alanc> unfortunately, it doesn't contain the stupidity to itself, but spills over to other lists too
[00:30:43] <CSFrost> they just dont generate post counts, and have no say in what goes in the community
[00:30:52] <delewis> *cough* psarc-ext *cough* ogb-discuss *cough*
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[00:32:08] <jamesd> alanc right after we delete OGB, since they are passing  rules that no budy uses or even knows about. ;-)
[00:32:29] <alanc> you can't delete OGB - the constitution requires us!
[00:32:42] <delewis> delete the constitution :-)
[00:33:37] <sahafeez> delewis, deleting the constitution is GWB job, not yours.
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[00:33:41] <alanc> and I still don't understand the people who whine about OGB imposed bueracracy (I'll never spell that word right) and yet want to impose yet more of their own
[00:34:03] <richlowe> I don't understand any of it, personally.
[00:34:08] <richlowe> I suspect half the yelling is because of the I-word.
[00:34:09] <jamesd> well its a lovely bureacracy that no one is using....
[00:34:52] <gdamore> at least part of the problem, IMO, is where the beauracracy violates the principle of least surprise.
[00:35:17] <gdamore> and, at some point, least surprise for folks with a history at Sun is probably quite different from least surprise for other folks.
[00:35:40] <jamesd> of course i was surprised, i was not able to vote....
[00:35:59] <alanc> and of course complaining that there's far more process than any other open source project, when much of it was copied from Apache...
[00:36:23] <delewis> gdamore: what do you think the chances are of the Douglas code working on Phoenix? (I've copied the trees for Douglas and modified the appropriate Makefiles, etc.)
[00:36:40] <gdamore> ~50%.
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[00:36:44] <gdamore> maybe even higher.
[00:36:48] <delewis> worth a try then.
[00:36:56] <gdamore> the Phoenix root nexus is almost identical.
[00:36:59] <delewis> (I'm doing a build on my E4500 at the moment. Fastest machine I have to build ON.)
[00:37:09] <gdamore> faster than i have locally.
[00:37:11] <delewis> gdamore: I noticed that and the ISA stuff. The device trees were almost identical.
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[00:39:49] <gdamore> they are nearly identical.  the power management is quite different, but you don't have those bits anyway.
[00:40:10] <gdamore> i still have to spend some time with i8042, but i've gotten sucked into networking stuff... :-)
[00:40:22] <delewis> any progress with vuidsyn?
[00:40:53] <gdamore> nope.  that's fallen to nearly the bottom of hte priority queue.  i've given code to casper to look at, though.
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[00:41:29] <delewis> (I'm still doing the nasty hack of copying the Solaris 9 vuidsyn strmod off to /kernel/strmod/sparcv9 and editing dacf.conf) :-)
[00:41:50] <gdamore> i'm hearing the same complaints from some people about the "wasted" effort of converting some of the drivers (like eri, dmfe, hme) to GLDv3.   argh.
[00:42:03] <delewis> ugh.
[00:42:04] <gdamore> delewis: well, if it works.
[00:42:23] <delewis> you've gotten eri and dmfe converted, right?
[00:42:33] <delewis> from psarc-ext it looked like the qfe case got withdrawn
[00:43:34] <gdamore> qfe did get withdrawn.
[00:43:45] <delewis> pity.
[00:43:46] <gdamore> dmfe is committed, eri is waiting pending codereview and QA sign off.
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[00:43:59] <gdamore> qfe may be back later.  i submitted a separate hme case.
[00:44:01] <delewis> what's the rationale for calling it 'wasted effort'?
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[00:44:15] <gdamore> "legacy drivers that are stable"... basically fear of change.
[00:44:19] <delewis> from my understanding GLDv3 is required to do some VLAN magic and link aggregation.
[00:44:25] <gdamore> yes.
[00:44:51] <jamesd> any chance the tu driver going to get ported to gldv3?
[00:44:54] <gdamore> although at _some_ point clearview is supposed to address that, but it will be a poor solution for some things... like VLAN can't do full MTU frames with clearview
[00:44:57] <delewis> it seems to me that the majority of customers that matter to Sun are probably not running qfe.
[00:45:03] <delewis> at the moment, anyway.
[00:45:10] <gdamore> huh?  qfe boards are _very_ common.
[00:45:11] <delewis> is eri still in newer hardware?
[00:45:20] <richlowe> gdamore: doing it without busting suntrunking isn't easy though.
[00:45:22] <gdamore> SunBlade 1000/1500/2000/2500
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[00:45:28] <richlowe> gdamore: though I thought trunking was formally gone.
[00:45:31] <delewis> really? I thought they were considered ancient. (I use them, myself)
[00:45:32] <gdamore> its not.
[00:45:39] <delewis> ah, didn't know they were in the 1500 and 2500.
[00:45:41] <gdamore> qfe boards are ancient.
[00:45:46] <delewis> I know they were in the 1000/2000, as I own one.
[00:46:17] <gdamore> jamesd: I dunno, I would avoid "tu".
[00:46:22] <Cinder-> I'd like qfe to stick around for a while
[00:46:25] <CSFrost> fireworks are ancient too, doesnt keep people from using them..
[00:46:36] <Cinder-> only have about 600 of those cards running production :)
[00:46:37] <jamesd> gdamore, well i got this  blade 1500 with   quad  tu board in it...
[00:46:46] <gdamore> qfe is still quite useful... but it would be more useful with GLDv3.
[00:46:59] <gdamore> jamesd: actual Digital Tulip chips?
[00:47:29] <jamesd> gdamore, it uses the tu driver...  no other driver works.. i dont think it has  digital chips in it...
[00:47:44] <gdamore> send me the prtdiag for it, I'm curious.
[00:48:03] <gdamore> there are a _lot_ of tulip clones... mxfe, afe, and dmfe work with just a few of them.
[00:48:26] <gdamore> but i thought the only quad port cards used the actual digital tulip...
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[00:48:38] <gdamore> which hasn't been sold in ~forever.
[00:49:58] <gdamore> the only tulip clones still in mass production that i'm aware of are the infineon/admtek centaur (afe), and certain davicom parts (dmfe).  I think dmfe has even abandoned the non-embedded market.
[00:50:16] <gdamore> s/dmfe has abandoned/davicom has abandoned/
[00:50:25] <delewis> pity. dmfe seems like a fairly simple chip.
[00:50:32] <delewis> I was reading through your GLDv3 changes to dmfe.
[00:50:33] <gdamore> centaur is too.
[00:51:10] <gdamore> there is a newer generation of the davicom part that even has support for IP checksum offload.  but you won't find it on any device you can use inside a Sun.
[00:51:21] <gdamore> or inside a PC running Solaris for that matter.
[00:51:27] <delewis> yeah, you had a comment in the code that mentioned that.
[00:51:58] <delewis> the performance of the dmfe's in my sparcbook doesn't seem bad at all.
[00:52:08] <delewis> (I've been using it lately to do Sun Ray demos)
[00:52:15] <delewis> two interfaces comes in handy.
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[00:56:15] <gdamore> are you using the new GLDv3 conversion?
[00:56:20] <delewis> yep
[00:56:23] <gdamore> cool.
[00:56:29] <delewis> I'm running snv_64a at the moment.
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[00:59:52] <gdamore> it would be interesting to add multiaddress support to dmfe, so systems like Tadpole SPARCLE with only one can use it with crossbow vnics, and thus get IP instances that work nicely. :-)
[01:00:27] <CIA-17> sd210035: 6506176 mpxio doesn't support engenio oem devices (part 3), 6506181 scsi target driver doesn't support engenio oem devices (part 3), 6553603 Remove duplicate LCA entries in Nevada
[01:00:28] <CIA-17> nordmark: 6526073 In kstat, UDP HC counters roll over after 4 billion, 6539005 Comment changes required in source files., 6539382 arp.c holds lock across putnext, 6561971 TX check missing in IPv4 default route case
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[01:27:33] <CSFrost> nhuisman_work, did you get some information for your questions?
[01:30:00] <nhuisman_work> got some good information yes
[01:30:07] <nhuisman_work> thx
[01:30:27] <nhuisman_work> I think what I'm going to do is just buy two iscsi enclosures to start with
[01:30:39] <nhuisman_work> then I have flexibility
[01:30:49] <nhuisman_work> i can go with solaris zfs, or just raid, or what ever.
[01:33:16] <nhuisman_work> Just need to pick a vendor
[01:33:44] <nhuisman_work> the thing I don't like about iscsi enclosures is that they have some proprietary crap os on them
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[01:34:04] <nhuisman_work> i guess the easy way around that is to buy a whole box and then run linux/solaris on it to act as a target.
[01:35:53] <CSFrost> if elektronkind is around, maybe he can offer some advice as well.
[01:36:20] <CSFrost> I forget the other regulars who usually jump in on the storage-talk
[01:36:36] <nhuisman_work> be nice if was supported by some company
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[01:38:17] <CSFrost> today seems to be a slow day in here, I think everyone is stuck reading opensolaris-discuss or something
[01:38:22] <CSFrost> it makes zombies out of them...
[01:38:33] <paul_f> :)
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[01:39:31] <nhuisman_work> lunch made me a zombie
[01:39:47] <brendang> not enough coffee made me a zombie
[01:39:56] <brendang> we need a better coffee machine at work
[01:40:18] <wesolows> bah
[01:40:19] <jamesd> brendang, that is why there are starbucks every 4 blocks...
[01:40:24] <wesolows> the coffee machines are fine
[01:40:53] <brendang> jamesd: I'd be poor if I kept going to starbucks. Large with 4 extra shots aren't cheap.
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[01:41:46] <jamesd> samm 7 shots of expresso in a 24 oz drink?    damm  you should just fine a good turkish coffee house and drink mud.
[01:41:53] <jamesd> er s/samm/damm.
[01:42:02] <brendang> wesolows: the coffee machines require too much hand cranking. we need one that is automated. coffeetron.
[01:42:38] <brendang> jamesd: does mud have caffeine in? if it did, I'd drink it.
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[01:42:46] <boyd> brendang: lol
[01:42:52] <boyd> (Morning, all)
[01:42:59] <jamesd> yes,  turkish coffee has the consistancy of mud...
[01:43:07] <jamesd> or damm close.
[01:43:25] <wesolows> brendang: Or a receptionist to make coffee for you
[01:43:28] <CSFrost> I still get free starbucks in 99% of the stores in Waikiki.. I'm just not a big coffee drinker.
[01:43:33] <brendang> now boyd remembers bangledeshi coffee from canberra. that was caffeinated sewerage and I still drank it.
[01:43:53] <brendang> wesolows: yes. we need a receptionist.
[01:44:46] <boyd> CSFrost: How did you get the free coffee? Lawsuit about it being too hot?
[01:44:51] <CSFrost> 4 weeks and I am available for hire.. I am just not very attractive, and I don't want to deal with IT people..
[01:44:51] <CSFrost> Oh wait....
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[01:45:09] <CSFrost> boyd, flirting.
[01:45:12] <CSFrost> I had free parking too.
[01:46:01] <boyd> Maybe you should flirt to get a job
[01:46:16] <CSFrost> I think I'll just work at starbucks.
[01:46:44] <gdamore> working at a starbucks in waikiki?  how bad can life suck? :-)
[01:47:09] <wesolows> brendang: so hire one from the bus stop
[01:47:19] <jamesd> gdamore, he could be a lifeguard at the senior center?
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[01:47:30] <boyd> Euw
[01:47:45] * gdamore shudders
[01:47:57] <Doc> brendang: ever been to vietnam?
[01:48:02] <CSFrost> well, gdamore, I really don't want to work for the military/gov't. And I don't want to be a windows admin, what choices do I have? :-P
[01:48:07] <brendang> Doc: no
[01:48:13] <Doc> you can order a good "cafe sewer" there
[01:48:14] <brendang> Doc: do they have coffee?
[01:48:19] <brendang> Doc: yay
[01:48:30] <Doc> (it'a actually spelt "cafe sua da", but near enough)
[01:48:59] <boyd> Hey, sorry to be on topic, but does anyone know anything about
[01:49:00] <boyd> "cluster" Brand Zone - PSARC/2007/304
[01:49:06] <boyd> ?
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[01:49:39] * CSFrost hears crickets
[01:49:46] * boyd too
[01:49:52] <wesolows> we were just talking about it
[01:50:00] <boyd> wesolows: In here?
[01:50:03] <wesolows> no
[01:50:04] <wesolows> in the office
[01:50:07] <brendang> boyd is at the bleeding edge
[01:50:14] <boyd> Did you make an mp3?
[01:50:18] <wesolows> no
[01:50:23] <richlowe> boyd: it looks to be a semi crazy way to hook cluster into the zone framework for failover.
[01:50:23] <boyd> :(
[01:50:24] <brendang> or boyd has a listening device in our office
[01:50:47] <wesolows> boyd: I suspect he might.  I'll sweep for bugs tomorrow morning.  In the meantime, say nothing.
[01:50:50] <wesolows> err
[01:50:51] <wesolows> sigh
[01:50:54] <boyd> richlowe: Do you have some reason other than the name to think that?
[01:50:55] <wesolows> brendang: ^^
[01:51:18] <richlowe> boyd: PSARC 2007/304, what little of it there is.
[01:51:19] <boyd> wesolows: It's *not* in the light fitting. Don't bother looking there.
[01:51:29] <wesolows> boyd: right-o
[01:51:31] <richlowe> use the mail archive, not the arc community.
[01:51:33] <richlowe> the latter is busted.
[01:51:36] <boyd> richlowe: Ah
[01:51:55] <boyd> I'm shocked!
[01:52:12] <richlowe> the more interesting bit is shortening the timeout to meet their time constraints.
[01:52:26] * boyd goes to get some context for that comment
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[01:53:25] <richlowe> in fact, the entire thing looks like bogussness to make 10u4, but I'm happy to be educated.
[01:54:00] * boyd is finaly looking at -arc for the first time... wow, I should have been reading this
[01:57:07] <Tempt> Mornin' all
[01:57:19] <Tempt> boyd: Oh? Worth subscribing? No pissing matches?
[01:57:43] <boyd> Dunno.. I'm just browsing the web archive
[01:57:46] <boyd> just started
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[01:58:25] <Tempt> Good thing I was planning to have a quiet night, looks like I've got a change scheduled to bounce our production environment.
[01:58:29] * Tempt sighs
[01:58:32] <Tempt> VRTSjust_reboot_it
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[02:00:12] <boyd> Ah, the VRTSpain
[02:00:32] <Tempt> It's a sad day when the solution is "just reboot it"
[02:00:36] <CIA-17> ae112802: 6553696 solaris panics "bad stack overflow at TL 2 ", find_node_work() recursion
[02:00:37] <CIA-17> kucharsk: 6469376 BrandZ should be able to install RHEL from any personality disc 1 disc
[02:00:40] * boyd cheers gdamore and his hme&qfe -> GLDv3 project
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[02:01:53] <gdamore> thanks boyd.
[02:02:16] <gdamore> right now the folks at NSN (the nics group) don't seem too thrilled by this project.
[02:02:32] <boyd> There is, of course, no self interest. It's not like I have several machines with those interfaces or anything :)
[02:02:39] <Tempt> Heh.
[02:02:40] <gdamore> right.
[02:02:51] <Tempt> Why are you getting crap from NSN?
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[02:02:54] <boyd> gdamore: The talk of "better work on newer stuff"?
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[02:02:59] <richlowe> gdamore: are they the same nics group responsible for ce?
[02:03:02] <Tempt> Are they getting pissy about criticism?
[02:03:02] <gdamore> boyd: right.
[02:03:07] <gdamore> richlowe: yes.
[02:03:14] <richlowe> gdamore: then I'm defaulting to "They're wrong"
[02:03:22] <boyd> There's a hell of a lot of hme & qfe still out here
[02:03:29] <boyd> richlowe: lol
[02:03:42] <gdamore> they think my effort there is "wasted"
[02:03:52] <Tempt> Fixing cassini would probably be more impacting.
[02:04:09] <nrubsig> Does anyone know what it means when a laptop starts to do "<beep><beep>" from time to time ?
[02:04:12] <nhuisman_work> hey if I have an iscsi target, does it need ram and cpu power?
[02:04:16] <gdamore> cassini is on my hit list too... but i think they are even more interesting in avoiding me working on that.
[02:04:23] <nhuisman_work> well more does it need ram
[02:04:24] <gdamore> nrubsig: low on powe.....
[02:04:25] <alanc> sounds like the sparc graphics group - working on anything they're not selling today is wasted effort - totally focused on new product sales, not existing user support
[02:04:26] <gdamore> power.
[02:04:54] <gdamore> usually you need to plugin the AC adapter, because you're almost out of juice in the battery
[02:05:06] <gdamore> alanc: *exactly*
[02:05:32] <alanc> not surprising since they're both from hardware product groups
[02:05:41] <gdamore> in many respects, the sparc graphics and sparc NICs groups can be lumped into the same bucket.
[02:05:53] <boyd> Do they come from a M$ background by any chance?
[02:06:07] <boyd> gdamore:Is there any equiv work on eri?
[02:06:16] <gdamore> yes.  eri is _done_
[02:06:23] <boyd> Oh!? Yay! :)
[02:06:24] <gdamore> i just need to get it reviewed, and final test approval before commit.
[02:06:24] <nhuisman_work> does iscsi do caching on the target, or on the initiator?
[02:06:35] * boyd cheers gdamore even more
[02:06:43] <nhuisman_work> In other words does the target benefit from more ram
[02:06:44] <boyd> nhuisman_work: yes.
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[02:07:14] <boyd> nhuisman_work: Caching is done on the target by the normal disk page cache or ARC methods
[02:07:26] <gdamore> eri shrank by a large margin... check out http://cr.opensolaris.org/~gdamore/nemo-eri/ if you're curious
[02:07:28] <nhuisman_work> and the initiator has none?
[02:07:41] <boyd> and by the initiator by the same method, since the iSCSI device is treated like any other disk
[02:07:44] <nhuisman_work> ah
[02:07:50] <boyd> AIUI
[02:07:54] <gdamore> about 3500 lines deleted.
[02:08:22] <boyd> I think I remember seeing a post about that in network-discuss which I was rushing through the other day
[02:08:37] <gdamore> i'm still in need of codereviewers....
[02:09:00] <gdamore> i'm willing also to provide binaries to folks who want to test.
[02:09:01] <boyd> gdamore: Well, just don't think that everyone has the same opinion as the NSN people
[02:09:12] <Tempt> Hmm, improving performance for SPARC graphics would be worthwhile.
[02:09:24] <boyd> gdamore: I'm better as a tester I think.. I don't think I'm qualified to review
[02:09:28] <Tempt> Having seen the difference between NextStep and Xsun, there's a lot of room for improvement.
[02:09:35] <gdamore> at some level the NSN people have more weight in their comments though, since they own the source.
[02:09:58] <Tempt> I find it amazingly stupid that Sun shipped machines with DVD drives that had no hope of playing a DVD.
[02:10:21] <gdamore> Tempt: that's not really an Xsun problem, per se.
[02:10:42] <CSFrost> "it seems realistic to rule out that do not run on the Java platform"
[02:10:47] <gdamore> besides, DVD is a format for software distribution, the fact that you can play movies with it is just a bonus. :-)
[02:10:52] <CSFrost> what is so important about a Java platform?
[02:10:59] <boyd> CSFrost: that from Caiman?
[02:11:47] <jamesd> tempt why, many many sun machines don't even have frame buffers, and are only accessed via a serial console.
[02:11:54] <CSFrost> boyd, no, docs/tools, our wiki discussion
[02:12:03] <boyd> Ah
[02:12:18] <CSFrost> If you MUST use java, what is wrong with a php-java bridge?
[02:12:33] <e^ipi> what've you got against java?
[02:12:42] <e^ipi> esp. in comparison with PHP ?
[02:12:53] <CSFrost> the fact that they use it as a limiting factor for choosing a wiki?
[02:12:58] <CSFrost> or personally?
[02:13:23] <e^ipi> java scales up well, PHP gets out of hand quite quickly
[02:13:26] <richlowe> CSFrost: trying to minize the amount of stuff tonic-ops have to maintain, perhaps?
[02:13:27] <boyd> gdamore: I'm happy to test eri btw if that helps
[02:13:50] <CSFrost> richlowe, remind me why are we maintaining tonic?
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[02:14:13] <CSFrost> e^ipi, well when someone makes a java based wiki that scales well, let me know.
[02:14:37] <CSFrost> Confluence is nice, but it wasn't one of the given options either.
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[02:15:17] <Tempt> Man, if I get a workstation with a DVD drive, I expect it to be capable of playing video.
[02:16:04] <e^ipi> why?
[02:16:04] <Tempt> CSFrost: Hmm, I've got a project talking about moving to Confluence. Any comments?
[02:16:09] <Tempt> why not?
[02:16:21] <gdamore> boyd: what's your e-mail address?  I have to send you both an eri driver, and updated mac and mac_ether driver set.
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[02:16:32] <e^ipi> because a disk medium and the data stored on it are two different things ?
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[02:16:57] <Tempt> Okay, perhaps I should put it this way: I expect a box with dual 900Mhz CPUs and a supposedly fast framebuffer to play video.
[02:17:15] <e^ipi> does it not play video at all?
[02:17:16] <Tempt> Especially if the job can be done by an x86 CPU clocked at 600Mhz
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[02:17:41] <Tempt> Pedant
[02:17:52] <CSFrost> Tempt, I have nothing against confluence, just was hoping for an opensource wiki for this integration.
[02:17:55] <Tempt> s/play video/play video at the correct framerate with less than 0.1% dropped frames/g
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[02:19:17] <Tempt> But hey, I've got a lot of big asks, right?
[02:20:00] <Tempt> The funny thing is, ShowMeTV used to be able to play video really well, with an insanely low CPU drain. So it is possible, it's just a software problem.
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[02:25:33] <CSFrost> brendang, perhaps I should have kept you in CC :-P
[02:27:20] <gdamore> Tempt: the problem is probably the player you are using.
[02:27:28] <gdamore> and probably _not_ Xsun's fault.
[02:27:54] <gdamore> uebayasi: I've not seen you in a long time.  another NetBSD convert? :-)
[02:28:04] <richlowe> what's Xsun doing?
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[02:30:25] <gdamore> going away, to be replaced by Xorg, hopefully. :-)
[02:30:40] <gdamore> anyway, time to go... open house at the kids school. :-)
[02:30:53] <the-decider> does anyone know if the big 'binat' bug in ipfilter for solaris is fixed in the recent S10 patches?
[02:31:10] <the-decider> (the bug, being, that it just doesn't work for incoming traffic.)
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[02:39:11] <Tempt> gdamore: Yes, well, the problem is Xsun doesn't support Xvideo
[02:39:29] <nrubsig> Tempt: well, that part is easy to fix...
[02:39:36] <Tempt> Oh?
[02:39:37] <Tempt> Cool/
[02:39:39] <Tempt> How?
[02:39:45] <nrubsig> Tempt: ... but someone has to convnce alanc to accept ir.
[02:40:06] <Tempt> Solution is ... ?
[02:40:51] <richlowe> why would they enhance something they're working flat-out to remove?
[02:40:55] <nrubsig> Tempt: my proposal would be to create a software-driver for XVideo for Xorg and then port this to Xsun. It would give no hardware accerlation but still significantly less protocol overhead for video display (which is the bulk of CPU usage for large image sizes).
[02:41:24] <capitano__> hi
[02:41:27] *** capitano__ is now known as Giaco
[02:41:45] <Giaco> to start with opensolaris can I buy a book on solaris 10 ?
[02:41:52] <nrubsig> yes
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[02:42:05] <Tempt> Yeah, well, I think it's easier to just think of "right tool for the job" at the end of the day, and Solaris is not the right tool for dealing with multimedia.
[02:42:09] <Giaco> nrubsig, have you something to advice me ?
[02:42:16] <wesolows> That seems silly
[02:42:28] <nrubsig> ?!
[02:42:30] <wesolows> Any OS is perfectly capable of doing what you require
[02:42:44] <nrubsig> wesolows: Ok, but solaris lacks many many drivers.
[02:42:46] <Tempt> wesolows: With the right softare, yes.
[02:42:53] <wesolows> not for me
[02:42:58] <wesolows> works just fine for me
[02:43:01] <Tempt> wesolows: However, the software does not exist, so ...
[02:43:11] <wesolows> every piece of software I need, I have
[02:43:14] <wesolows> ymmv
[02:43:21] <Tempt> Goody for you.
[02:43:29] <Tempt> Your argument made no sense.
[02:43:41] <nrubsig> wesolows: and the usage of hop&cool software vs. sane ones isn't one of Sun's good points either (e.g. FireFix+Thunderbird vs. Seamoney on SunRay is a bad joke)
[02:43:49] <wesolows> although, I really wish I had a piece of software that would automatically copy my current install image onto the disks of people who complain that solaris can't do X or Y.
[02:44:10] <Tempt> How about instead of getting huffy you actually help, huh?
[02:44:13] <nrubsig> s/hop/hip/
[02:44:14] <wesolows> not that there's really anything special about it
[02:44:23] <Tempt> If you've got a magic "play video on Solaris/SPARC" solution, share it.
[02:44:35] <wesolows> Sounds like a lack of specs
[02:44:40] <wesolows> Solution: don't use SPARC
[02:44:49] <nrubsig> Tempt: mplayer usually works with some tweaking.
[02:44:59] <Tempt> So it looks like your magic install image solution is just pissing in the wind.
[02:45:09] <Tempt> The hardware is easily capable, this is a software shortfall.
[02:45:14] <wesolows> Or, steal/reverse engineer the Xsun drivers for those pieces of hardware and port them to Xorg.
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[02:45:24] <nrubsig> wesolows: you sell SF69k with SunRays and claim it support "multimedia" (at least in Sun's marketing stuff)
[02:45:36] <wesolows> nrubsig: I don't sell anything.
[02:45:43] <nrubsig> you=sun
[02:45:44] <nrubsig> sorry
[02:45:45] <Tempt> Now, if someone would have Xsun to support the hardware scaling on the framebuffer, the whole problem would be fixed.
[02:45:48] <the-decider> nrubsig: both video, and audio.
[02:45:51] <the-decider> ;)
[02:46:12] <Tempt> Multimedia being defined as the excessive flashy crap on sun.com
[02:46:15] <wesolows> but, again, I think getting Xorg support for those framebuffers is likely to be time better spent
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[02:46:25] <Tempt> Xorg on SPARC?
[02:46:28] <wesolows> yes
[02:46:30] <nrubsig> Tempt: yes
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[02:46:42] <nrubsig> even 64bit
[02:46:51] <wesolows> it already builds and works, there's just no support for the shitty framebuffers Sun sells for them (yet? ever?  dunno)
[02:47:12] <Tempt> Well, most of the newer framebuffers aren't proprietary.
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[02:47:27] <Tempt> They're just m64s and ATI Radeons and WildCats and stuff like that.
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[02:47:48] <Tempt> Excluding mad cases like the XVR-4000
[02:47:51] <nrubsig> wesolows: XVR-1000 and XVR-4000 were never "shitty" - in fact they were IMO one of the greatest things they had and they were _YEARS_ ahead of the competition if you look at the feature set.
[02:47:52] <wesolows> on the contrary, those are held to be far more proprietary, for whatever reason
[02:48:26] <wesolows> we actually *have* a cgsix driver, for whatever good that does
[02:49:11] <wesolows> nrubsig: Glad you liked them.  For $10k or whatever ridiculous price they were, I'd sure hope they met your needs.
[02:49:32] <jamesd> they work great in my  ultra 2 :-)
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[02:50:37] <Tempt> If someone would actually cough up some driver support and get Xorg running nicely on SPARC, you should be able to slap a PCI NVidia card in there and watch it go nicely.
[02:50:56] <wesolows> That would also be very cool.
[02:51:32] <wesolows> I suspect you could probably get the nv driver to do that today
[02:51:41] <Tempt> Except you'll probably not see Nvidia releasing drivers for UltraSPARC.
[02:51:43] <wesolows> Which I believe already supports Xvideo
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[02:52:07] <wesolows> You wouldn't have the fancy 3D stuff that's in nvidia, but nv would still be better than Xsun.
[02:52:28] * the-decider forgot how long it took to throw a recommended patch cluster on an x1.  might as well eat.
[02:52:33] <delewis> Xorg *is* running on SPARC.
[02:52:42] <delewis> I'm using it with my Elite3D and pgx64.
[02:53:01] <Tempt> Performance much better?
[02:53:05] <delewis> Xvideo still isn't working, as it depends on some PCI probe magic that isn't there, yet.
[02:53:06] <nrubsig> no
[02:53:25] <nrubsig> Tempt: the current Xorg drivers for SPARC aren't accerlated.
[02:53:33] <Tempt> Heh.
[02:53:37] <Tempt> So why use it at all?
[02:53:37] <wesolows> delewis: Is that work blocked on specs, or is it just work that needs doing?
[02:54:00] <delewis> wesolows: no clue. It'd certainly help Martin if the SPARC graphics team would cooperate, though.
[02:54:11] <delewis> he's done all of the work himself, and its quite impressive.
[02:54:16] <richlowe> sparc graphics? cooperate?
[02:54:16] <wesolows> Yeah, good luck with that.
[02:54:19] <richlowe> hahahahaha
[02:54:21] <wesolows> They're the worst of the worst.
[02:54:30] <wesolows> Anything graphics is a fucking black hole.
[02:54:33] <delewis> why doesn't someone just walk over there and crack some skulls?
[02:54:34] <nrubsig> wesolows: why ?
[02:54:47] <richlowe> delewis: think happy thoughts, if/when martin finishes, maybe they'll all vanish.
[02:54:55] <Tempt> anyway, time for a morning coffee/cigarette experience
[02:54:57] <wesolows> nrubsig: Because the "graphics industry" is the most secretive and paranoid bunch of psychos in the world?  I don't know.
[02:55:16] <delewis> well, I think Martin has the bulk of the work done. Its just getting stuff like Xvideo working, that would be nice.
[02:55:18] <the-decider> they get along famously with the wireless chipset folks ;)
[02:55:23] <wesolows> the-decider: yep
[02:55:30] <nrubsig> richlowe: they won't vanish because Martin's work AFAIK doesn't include "accerlation" nor "3D support"
[02:55:35] <delewis> at least those of us that care about our *legacy* graphics hardware have a place to turn when Sun cans Xsun.
[02:56:01] <wesolows> Honestly, I think it's that the field is so beset with patents that no one wants to tell you how their thing works because then you'll be able to infer that it infringes on 2593 patents the manufacturer doesn't own.
[02:56:08] <nrubsig> richlowe: and the Xorg drivers for M64 are really shitty - they don't even support the 8+24 mode
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[02:56:23] <richlowe> bugger, didn't realize comay was around.
[02:56:26] <delewis> the Elite3D drivers are acceptable.
[02:56:31] <delewis> m64 can use 'wsfb'
[02:56:41] <delewis> it needs some fixing, though -- > 8-bit colour isn't working.
[02:56:46] <delewis> but in any case, its a start.
[02:56:49] <nrubsig> delewis: still no multiplane support
[02:57:10] <delewis> nrubsig: I'd rather have no multiplane support than no X11 server.
[02:58:06] <nrubsig> welcome to opensource where "free solution" means "shitty solution but at least it's working"
[02:58:36] <wesolows> nrubsig: One would observe that's a property of all software written with inadequate information, regardless of the license.
[02:58:54] <wesolows> I could write a binary-only driver for Elite3d and it would be no better than Martin's.
[02:59:03] <wesolows> So don't troll.
[02:59:29] 
[02:59:44] <delewis> indeed, its not perfect, but consider how useful our framebuffers will be when Sun cans Xsun and we don't have viable Xorg support laying around.
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[03:00:24] <wesolows> And note also that this conversation started with the fact that Xsun (very definitely *not* open source and very definitely *not* Xorg) is also inadequate.
[03:00:28] <richlowe> So.
[03:00:33] <nrubsig> delewis: I doubt Xsun will be EOL'ed anytime soon.
[03:00:40] <richlowe> I'm growing increasing tempted to remove webrev -O, and replace it (temporarily) with a -C
[03:00:43] <richlowe> doing the inverse.
[03:00:58] <delewis> if it is, I have source to some bits of it that I'll rip out and use for my own Xorg. :-)
[03:00:59] * nrubsig is tempted to rewrite webrev
[03:01:04] <delewis> its ancient source, though.
[03:01:08] <delewis> ~ Solaris 2.5
[03:01:11] <richlowe> optimizing for the degenerate case was foolish in the first place.
[03:01:14] <wesolows> richlowe: Well, you know the arguments you'll get against that, but I actually think it's a fine idea. :-)
[03:01:31] <nrubsig> richlowe: once I am done with the current putback I may look at webrev in general.
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[03:02:06] <wesolows> webrev works fine; why change it?
[03:02:16] <wesolows> more to th epoint, why rewrite it?
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[03:03:09] <nrubsig> wesolows: it could be written more elegant and without awk/sed/etc. and horror stunts.
[03:03:25] <nrubsig> wesolows: do you want to see what shcomp's "lint" mode says about "webrev.sh" ?
[03:03:45] <nrubsig> 252 warnings
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[03:05:06] <richlowe> ah well, it seems I'm fixing this twice anyway.
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[03:08:51] <nrubsig> richlowe: well, soon you get a more capable version of the shell which should lower your pain a lot... :-)
[03:09:43] <nhuisman_work> god, too much research on storage, i have scsi coming out of my i's
[03:09:47] <richlowe> If you think changing webrev in the slightest *lessens* my pain, you're crazy.
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[03:10:39] <richlowe> testing with 3 SCMs, one of which I don't have, 3 ways of getting the flist (per SCM), closed and not closed (which I can't do 'naturally'), is no fun in even the most minor of cases.
[03:10:42] * nrubsig takes some pills in the meantime...
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[03:11:03] <nrubsig> richlowe: welcome to the club.
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[03:11:30] <nrubsig> richlowe: my putback covers closed-source parts of OS/Net which is _much_ fun since I am doing the navigation via email.
[03:11:37] <nrubsig> I don't even have the code.
[03:11:38] <richlowe> nrubsig: been there, done that.
[03:11:40] <richlowe> nrubsig: am doing that.
[03:11:51] <richlowe> will do it at least one more time, too.
[03:12:07] <richlowe> nothing like a wad with your name on it that you can only see half of, huh?
[03:12:17] <Tempt> It wouldn't surprise me if sun was to can Xsun
[03:12:44] <nrubsig> richlowe: ?!
[03:12:51] <nrubsig> richlowe: "wad"=?
[03:12:57] <richlowe> "chunk of changes"
[03:13:08] <nrubsig> erm
[03:13:16] * nrubsig tries to understand the sentence
[03:13:29] <richlowe> nrubsig: you make changes, matching changes need to be made in closed/, one putback.
[03:13:38] <richlowe> nrubsig: but the closed/ half comes from someone else, and you'll never see it.
[03:13:46] <richlowe> nrubsig: putback message still has your name on the bottom though...
[03:15:56] <g4lt-U60> as in wad of gum
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[03:21:15] * dclarke wanders by
[03:21:23] <nhuisman_work> is there a driver/hardware compatibility list for open solaris somewhere?
[03:21:58] *** szt has quit IRC
[03:22:39] <dclarke> not really
[03:22:49] <dclarke> there is an HCL for Solaris
[03:23:36] <CSFrost> there is one for opensolaris as well
[03:23:49] <CSFrost> I think it is only slightly newer then the Solaris one though
[03:24:08] <CSFrost> nhuisman_work, try googling "opensolaris hcl"
[03:24:11] <CSFrost> it's on sun's site.
[03:24:40] <nhuisman_work> k
[03:27:36] <e^ipi> it's pretty old
[03:27:51] <e^ipi> you're actually probably better off just searching for it @ src.opensolaris.org
[03:31:46] <jamesd> hmm,  will a headhunter consider Linux to be unix experience?
[03:31:54] <wesolows> sure
[03:32:05] <Tempt> jamesd: Depends.
[03:32:08] <wesolows> a headhunter will consider stuffing a SCO UnixWare CD up your ass to be Unix experience.
[03:32:26] <Tempt> jamesd: The headhunter's client is going to see a CV before they interview you.
[03:32:34] <Tempt> jamesd: And they'll know which UNIX they care about.
[03:32:54] <jamesd> yeah, now they are having me fill out a Skills matrix.
[03:32:56] <dclarke> ha ha
[03:33:04] <dclarke> thats sounds uncomfortable as hell
[03:33:05] <Tempt> and last time I was sorting CVs I didn't consider Linux to be Solaris experience.
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[03:33:15] * dclarke looks at his SCI UNIX CD
[03:33:22] * dclarke looks at his SCO UNIX CD
[03:34:17] <e^ipi> i have an AIX 5.1 media kit
[03:34:22] <e^ipi> *shrug*
[03:34:38] <e^ipi> dclarke, iso?
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[03:35:08] <dclarke> http://www.networkworld.com/community/?q=node/1129
[03:35:54] <dclarke> no ISO
[03:36:04] <dclarke> I have SCO UNIX ODT 3 here
[03:36:05] <Tempt> I've Xenix media somewhere.
[03:36:12] <dclarke> plus some diskettes and .. dunno what else
[03:36:13] <Tempt> and SCO UNIX
[03:36:22] <Tempt> and SunOS media on tape
[03:36:32] <dclarke> yeah .. its kicking around .. and people still run it in various places
[03:36:32] <e^ipi> can I have it?
[03:36:39] <Tempt> have what?
[03:36:52] <dclarke> e^ipi : have what ?  the T-shirt I promised you a freaking year ago ?
[03:36:53] <e^ipi> SCO unix
[03:36:56] <Tempt> ha.
[03:37:03] <Tempt> Don't bother, it isn't even worth the history lesson
[03:37:05] <e^ipi> might be fun to play with *shrug*
[03:37:08] <Tempt> and it's all on 5.25" floppies
[03:37:10] <dclarke> e^ipi : geez ... dunno .. I'm partial to it
[03:37:21] <e^ipi> dclarke, you're partial... to the bits?
[03:37:24] * dclarke bulshit liar that I am
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[03:37:46] <dclarke> e^ipi :  let me fish out the license key
[03:37:55] <dclarke> e^ipi :  it's useless without it
[03:38:00] <dclarke> ah heck .. NMI
[03:38:09] <dclarke> gotta go service an NMI
[03:38:18] <e^ipi> kids?
[03:38:19] <dclarke> be back from interrupt .. shortly
[03:38:37] * dclarke vectors to jump table for IRQ
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[03:41:25] <e^ipi> this AIX media kit is quite useless, as I don't own any pseries hardware
[03:41:33] <e^ipi> i wonder what the bay holds
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[03:42:19] <e^ipi> interesting, stripped down 44p-170 for $60
[03:42:24] <e^ipi> no memory or drives
[03:42:27] * dclarke returns from call
[03:42:36] <dclarke> ebay has p-series gear ?
[03:42:44] <dclarke> isn't that hellish expensive ?
[03:43:27] <e^ipi> evidently not
[03:43:57] <Tempt> Hmmm
[03:44:04] <Tempt> I could use that media pack.
[03:44:06] <e^ipi> there's a whole pile of 333mhz 44p-170's for $60/each
[03:44:07] <Tempt> For my J-509
[03:44:10] <Tempt> J-50
[03:44:47] <dclarke> e^ipi : want to hear something sad ?
[03:44:51] <e^ipi> dclarke, sure
[03:45:04] <dclarke> e^ipi : I tossed a few RS/6000 units in the trash a week ago
[03:45:10] <dclarke> they were complete units
[03:45:14] <e^ipi> gack, what's the matter with yo
[03:45:16] <dclarke> RAM + disk etc etc
[03:45:38] <dclarke> it was time to clear out old useless inventory again and so off they went to a recycle plant
[03:45:45] <e^ipi> were they at least the old useless beige ones ?
[03:45:52] <dclarke> yep
[03:45:59] <e^ipi> okay, that's forgivable then
[03:46:13] * dclarke sigh
[03:46:14] <e^ipi> as long as they weren't power3 hardware
[03:46:15] <dclarke> thanks
[03:46:21] <dclarke> oh GOD no
[03:46:24] <dclarke> no no
[03:46:38] <e^ipi> these 170's are /actually/ useful
[03:46:49] <dclarke> gimme a link
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[03:47:14] <e^ipi> http://cgi.ebay.com/RS-6000-44P-Model-170-7044-170-333mhz_W0QQitemZ280120717061QQihZ018QQcategoryZ11215QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
[03:47:59] <e^ipi> they need ram & harddrives, but still
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[03:48:28] <e^ipi> ( please leave me one )
[03:48:33] <dclarke> anything special about the RAM ?
[03:49:02] <dclarke> and .. why do you want something like that ?
[03:49:37] <dclarke> I'll see if I can set you up with one of these : http://www.livewire.ca/images/powerpc_mainboard_top.jpg
[03:49:46] <dclarke> its another appliance unit I'm working on
[03:50:09] <e^ipi> why? because i don't have any IBM powerpc hardware
[03:50:26] <dclarke> me neither .. anymore
[03:50:34] <e^ipi> or any 64-bit PPC hardware
[03:50:35] <Tempt> Nice little board.
[03:50:53] <Tempt> What's the connector on the bottom right hand side labelled "Pulse Jack"
[03:51:04] <dclarke> dual etherent
[03:51:09] <Tempt> Aah.
[03:51:25] <Tempt> Again, nice looking little board
[03:51:33] <dclarke> http://www.livewire.ca/images/powerpc_mainboard_bottom.jpg  <-- see flash RAM connector on bottom
[03:51:46] <Tempt> What's the OS support like so far?
[03:51:59] <dclarke> linux .. what else
[03:52:05] <Tempt> Yawn
[03:52:08] <Tempt> NetBSD?
[03:52:09] <Tempt> <g>
[03:52:20] <dclarke> I can not think of a reason why not
[03:52:23] <dclarke> worth a try
[03:52:40] <Tempt> I can't wait for someone to finish off porting BSD to the Gumstix.
[03:52:43] * dclarke grabs post it note ... writes "get NetBSD for ppc"
[03:52:48] <Tempt> Then I can actually use the stupid things.
[03:53:09] <e^ipi> does it not run netbsd?
[03:53:12] <dclarke> I want a box that can at least deliver 1GHz perf
[03:53:28] <Tempt> The GumStix doesn't run NetBSD yet, the ethernet support etc is broken.
[03:53:36] <dclarke> for example .. this :
[03:53:37] <Tempt> So you can fire a kernel up but not much else
[03:53:41] <dclarke> $ uname -a
[03:53:44] <dclarke> SunOS aequitas 5.11 snv_64a i86pc i386 i86pc
[03:54:02] <dclarke> $ dmesg | grep Haul
[03:54:03] <dclarke> May 31 07:01:19 aequitas unix: [ID 950921 kern.notice] cpu0: x86 (CentaurHauls 6A9 family 6 model 10 step 9 clock 1200 MHz)
[03:54:22] <dclarke> that's coming along nicely
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[03:54:37] <e^ipi> dclarke, what machine is that?
[03:54:50] <Tempt> The GumStix looked like a really good idea and I quite like the hardware, just the usual Linux problems are a killer.
[03:55:09] <dclarke> e^ipi : its another of my low power appliance experiments
[03:55:26] <dclarke> e^ipi : except this board has dual ethernet, flash RAM connectors etc etc
[03:55:35] <dclarke> e^ipi : and graphics works real well
[03:55:36] <e^ipi> that's cool
[03:55:59] <dclarke> $ prtconf | grep Memory
[03:56:00] <sahafeez> anyone want an sb100 - $25 + shipping.
[03:56:01] <dclarke> Memory size: 959 Megabytes
[03:56:17] <e^ipi> that board ( the picture ), does it have jtag pins?
[03:56:30] <Tempt> Where is it?
[03:56:33] <dclarke> e^ipi : absolutely
[03:56:35] <Tempt> The sb100
[03:56:40] <sahafeez> san diego
[03:56:56] <e^ipi> cool
[03:56:57] <sahafeez> 30gb+15gb disc, 768ram, dvd
[03:57:03] <dclarke> can I have a dual 1.6GHz SB2500 plus shipping for $25 please ?
[03:57:06] <sahafeez> type 6+mouse
[03:57:15] <sahafeez> no, sorry. all out
[03:57:20] <e^ipi> who's the supplier?
[03:57:21] <sahafeez> i have a sb1000
[03:57:37] <dclarke> me too
[03:57:50] <sahafeez> i am getting rid of stuff. thought i would ask before i ebay it
[03:58:02] <dclarke> # uname -a
[03:58:03] <dclarke> SunOS ra 5.8 Generic_117350-46 sun4u sparc SUNW,Sun-Blade-1000
[03:58:12] <dclarke> hrmm .. I better scan for patches again
[03:58:15] <e^ipi> sahafeez, are you getting rid of an rs/6000 ?
[03:58:19] <sahafeez> no
[03:58:20] <dclarke> its getting near patch scan time
[03:58:23] <Tempt> SunOS taquito 5.10 Generic_118833-17 sun4u sparc SUNW,Sun-Blade-1000
[03:58:35] <sahafeez> all out of those. had my last one back in 2002
[03:58:41] <e^ipi> drats
[03:58:59] <dclarke> I have a pentium P90 here ... still boots and runs
[03:59:10] <dclarke> and .. it is real rare .. it has the math flaw
[03:59:14] <Tempt> Hmm, taquito needs some patches.
[03:59:17] <Tempt> ha.
[03:59:20] <dclarke> and it boots and runs Solaris 2.5.1 for x86
[03:59:24] <e^ipi> I have a dual p3 that won't boot solaris for some reason
[03:59:25] <sahafeez> SunOS rioja 5.11 snv_63 sun4u sparc SUNW,Sun-Blade-1000
[03:59:26] <Tempt> I've got a small box of FPU bugged Pentiums somewhere.
[03:59:29] <sahafeez> ;)
[03:59:35] <Tempt> They've got the nice gold packaging.
[03:59:51] <sahafeez> i have a ps/2 9595 with a type 4 complex (p90) that i hacked to take a p233mmx
[03:59:56] <dclarke> heat them up .. there may be an oz of gold there
[04:00:22] <e^ipi> that's $600 worth of gold
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[04:00:29] <dclarke> hey .. where are you guys located ?  what is the cost of gasoline there ?
[04:00:29] <sahafeez> hum, thats an idea. id the gold content of chips and buy the right ones for cheap on ebay
[04:00:44] <sahafeez> san diego - $3.30-3.40 p/g
[04:01:00] <sahafeez> it was $3.47 but went down a bit
[04:01:12] <e^ipi> prince george, it's $1.50/L
[04:01:15] <dclarke> sahafeez : just melt pennies .. copper is easier to find and worth more than their weight in pennies .. all you need is a solar furnace
[04:01:31] <dclarke> holy crap .. $347 ?
[04:01:35] <dclarke> holy crap .. $3.47 ?
[04:01:37] <sahafeez> yes
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[04:01:47] <dclarke> I need my convertor to figure that out in liters
[04:01:50] <richlowe> dclarke: it varies a lot by area.
[04:01:50] <sahafeez> even tho there is a refinery right up the 5 in la
[04:01:57] <richlowe> dclarke: (the busier the area, the more it'll cost)
[04:02:02] <dclarke> when the fu#$k are you yanks gonna join the rest of the world and use metric !!?!!?
[04:02:09] <richlowe> dclarke: never.
[04:02:09] <CSFrost> New york 3.25-3.30 currently..
[04:02:15] <richlowe> dclarke: they're just going to leave the rest of us confused.
[04:02:35] <sahafeez> about .26g p/l
[04:02:41] <sahafeez> so 4l = 1g
[04:02:53] <dclarke> nah .. I need better conversion factors than that
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[04:03:05] <richlowe> dclarke: you almost certainly don't want to work it out.
[04:03:06] <sahafeez> 0.26g p/l
[04:03:09] <dclarke> a liquid gallon .. a US gallon is not the same as a british gallon or a Canadian gallon
[04:03:18] <sahafeez> that is an us gallon
[04:03:22] <richlowe> it's a lot of effort to work out, too.
[04:03:27] <sahafeez> 1 gallon = 3.78 l
[04:03:30] <richlowe> I recall it ending up being still around half the price as gas in the UK
[04:03:34] <richlowe> and concluding that everyone was whiny ;)
[04:03:49] <CSFrost> and a US dollar is never the same as a CA dollar either :-P
[04:03:57] <sahafeez> the tax in the uk is very high on gas and that is a good thing. i wish gas was higher in the us
[04:04:12] <sahafeez> maybe we would have better trains and fuel mpg
[04:04:15] <e^ipi> CSFrost, pretty damn close at the moment
[04:04:20] <e^ipi> $.93
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[04:04:27] <CSFrost> people dont complain about the price, people complain about it going up
[04:04:28] <CSFrost> regardless.
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[04:04:46] <CSFrost> if the UK's went up more, people would complain the same.
[04:04:53] <sahafeez> the US missed it chance to be free of oil issue for the most part in the 70s.....we blew it.
[04:05:09] <e^ipi> i think it's curious that canada (an oil producing country) pays commodity market rates, but there you have it
[04:05:22] <CSFrost> heh, the oil issue is a huge income for the gov't. :-p
[04:05:32] <sahafeez> canada does not make enough oil for its public needs
[04:05:33] <dclarke> gal std US gallon == 0.003785411784 m^3
[04:05:54] <sahafeez> hum, doing the math that is 3.78l p/g like i said
[04:06:03] <dclarke> thus speaks me HP 28S scientific calculator
[04:06:21] <dclarke> 3.78541
[04:06:26] <sahafeez> google is faster then your hp
[04:06:42] <sahafeez> so no takers on the sb100?
[04:06:42] * dclarke puts on a stern look
[04:06:54] <dclarke> never question the HP RPN based calculator
[04:07:15] <g4lt-U60> uhm, crude oil does NOT have a density of 1g/cc
[04:07:22] <sahafeez> i used to be able to write clean and clear and do math in my head. now i cannot print clear and more then 2+2 is hard
[04:07:28] <dclarke> that has nothing to do with it
[04:07:50] <dclarke> the density of the liquid does not affect the volume at STP
[04:07:53] <g4lt-U60> dclarke, look at the previous statements and do dimensional analysis
[04:08:45] <dclarke> what ?
[04:08:59] <dclarke> I have 1 gal std US gallon == 3.785411784 litres
[04:09:06] <dclarke> thats fine for my conversion
[04:09:37] <e^ipi> gas pumps are normalized for ICAO standard atmosphere ( 15c, 29.92"Hg )
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[04:09:41] <dclarke> so I see san diego - $3.30-3.40  p/g
[04:10:09] <dclarke> so let's say $ 3.35  USD per US gallon
[04:10:11] <nachox> i've never seen an argument as useless as the indiana one
[04:10:24] <dclarke> nachox :  this argument is more useless
[04:10:39] <dclarke> nachox :  we are screwed with oil prices and yet .. we discuss it
[04:10:48] <sahafeez> what is the argument?
[04:10:58] <dclarke> nachox :  democracy is dead .. long live the military industrial complex
[04:11:15] <sahafeez> oil needs to be high. double. 5x it. would be a good thing
[04:11:30] <g4lt-U60> nachox, well, the thing is that indiana is trying to force opensolaris to be free by making yet another sun.com ddistribution and calling this one a "reference".  isn't that what nevada is?
[04:11:34] <nachox> dclarke, hehe
[04:11:49] <e^ipi> is that what they're trying to do?
[04:12:08] <e^ipi> why not just use belenix? it already exists
[04:12:10] <sahafeez> when you say indiana do you mean the state or jones
[04:12:33] <bda> No time for politicking, Dr Jones.
[04:12:34] <g4lt-U60> e^ipi, basically.  ian murdock is trying to force a reference distribution.  of course the fact that there is a _de facto_ one in SXCE is completely irrelevant
[04:12:50] <dclarke> I say we vote on it .. let's use BeleniX and then all get behind it
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[04:13:09] <dclarke> leave snv to the Solaris people at Sun
[04:13:18] <dclarke> the community can work with BeleniX
[04:13:23] <nachox> the news made it to places like the register, that is too shamefull already :P
[04:13:24] <g4lt-U60> so a bunch of * at sun dot com are arguing over a reference distribution, not realizing htath they're already hosting hte damn thing
[04:13:28] <dclarke> or whateve anyone wants to cook up on theior own of course
[04:13:41] <sahafeez> ugh. politics is going to kill this.
[04:13:46] <dclarke> ya think ?
[04:13:49] <wesolows> g4lt-U60: On the contrary, that's very relevant.  Because it seems to me that he also wants to kill Solaris, if not today then eventually.
[04:13:58] <dclarke> there are six people on the OGB that are Sun employees
[04:14:00] * sahafeez just found a bag with 3 crossbow mice
[04:14:08] <dclarke> one pure bred community guy
[04:14:21] <wesolows> dclarke: Don't worry, if the reference distribution question came up today, I'd not hesitate to vote No.
[04:14:30] <g4lt-U60> wesolows, he is doing a damn fine job of it, it's true.
[04:14:33] <sahafeez> hum, well i am glad that os x and freebsd are getting zfs so when the dumbasses kill it i can still use zfs
[04:14:33] * dclarke wasn't worried
[04:14:45] <nachox> keith seems to be fighting everyone at sun anyway :)
[04:14:47] <nrubsig> dclarke: yes, six Sun people on the IGB - and the Illuminati and Vorlons are plotting against you!
[04:15:09] <dclarke> nrubsig :  don't start with me .. you you .. you ksh guy you
[04:15:12] <dclarke> :-)
[04:15:18] <nachox> hehe
[04:15:25] <wesolows> nachox: I do seem to have my share of enemies, or at least opponents, and then some.
[04:15:30] <nrubsig> kschkkschksch!
[04:15:33] <dclarke> nrubsig :  you're secretly putting in code that when read backwards spells out evil incantations
[04:15:41] <g4lt-U60> dclarke, actually, if you'd just make a reference distribution you'd be happy building CSW against, that's be a step in the right direction
[04:15:42] <bda> No one expects the Vorlon Inquisition.
[04:15:43] * sahafeez burns freebsd 7 snapshot cd
[04:15:47] <nrubsig> dclarke: no, right now I am working on shinvaders
[04:16:01] <dclarke> g4lt-U60 :  I'm already thinking that way
[04:16:04] <nrubsig> dclarke: and termclock (analog terminal clock)
[04:16:07] <CSFrost> Is it time to fork yet?
[04:16:09] <g4lt-U60> right now, CSW's reference is sol8 :/
[04:16:24] <dclarke> I have the latest BeleniX here and I can not think of a better thing to do than to build CSW packages targetted for it
[04:16:53] <dclarke> ug .. don't get me started with Solaris 8
[04:16:58] <CSFrost> I can, anyone want a brownie?
[04:16:59] <dclarke> I can not leave it behind however
[04:17:03] <dclarke> the user base is huge
[04:17:17] <dclarke> oh heck .. another NMI
[04:17:20] <dclarke> gotta run
[04:17:21] <nachox> wesolows, did you beat plocher up already? :)
[04:17:24] <dclarke> back in a bit okay ?
[04:17:29] <g4lt-U60> the added thing here is then you don't have to force people to grab most of gnome to add one trivial package
[04:17:36] <CSFrost> nmi = new mexican immigrant?
[04:17:50] <e^ipi>  non-maskable interrupt
[04:17:57] <sahafeez> dclarke - no, you cannot leave
[04:18:04] <wesolows> nachox: no way, man; he's a big guy!  Also, I don't work in his city...
[04:18:11] <nrubsig> non-marketing intervention
[04:18:39] <sahafeez> nmi = nude mexican immigrant
[04:18:49] <nrubsig> nude ?
[04:18:56] <nrubsig> chicken pornos!
[04:19:10] <nrubsig> (at MacDonalds)
[04:19:15] <nrubsig> (fried)
[04:19:19] <nrubsig> (and naked)
[04:19:31] <sahafeez> nrubsig http://community.livejournal.com/techsupport/1359014.html
[04:19:36] <nachox> big as in he is 2m tall, black belt in karate or as in he can fire me?
[04:20:42] <wesolows> the former
[04:21:21] <wesolows> it's pretty near impossible for anyone to fire me; I'd have to do something pretty bad.
[04:21:22] <sahafeez> back to gas prices - http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/05/31/BAGKCQ52044.DTL
[04:21:51] <nrubsig> wesolows: why should it be impossible ?
[04:21:56] <nachox> get a little gang, he must have other enemies :)
[04:22:34] <wesolows> nrubsig: Because of organisational structure...that's all I'll say.
[04:23:02] <wesolows> (of course anyone can be fired, but it's a matter of whether the people I report to would want to do that...and they wouldn't)
[04:23:06] <g4lt-U60> wesolows, basically, the reference movement coming from within sun is BAD.  it HAS to be from outside or we'll just have SXRE
[04:23:37] <nachox> just kidding, in any case, you earnt my respect when you stood up against them
[04:23:46] <nrubsig> g4lt-U60: there aren't enougth people "Outside" with enougth resources or money
[04:23:47] <bda> wesolows has stolen all the skeletons from their closets and built a mighty throne from them.
[04:23:55] <nrubsig> heh
[04:23:58] <nrubsig> lol
[04:24:01] <bda> From which he rules as Skeletor on Evil Mastermind Fridays.
[04:24:02] <nrubsig> rofl
[04:24:09] <wesolows> g4lt-U60: I don't actually agree with the first part (the second is of course a real risk).  In reality, it would be nice if people who happen to work for Sun could actually engage as individuals.  Some of the players here haven't been doing a very good job of that.
[04:24:11] <g4lt-U60> nrubsig, troo dat, but you do see where I'm going with this
[04:24:17] <richlowe> g4lt-U60: where it comes from is not relevant.
[04:24:36] <nrubsig> g4lt-U60: "troo dat"=?
[04:24:43] <wesolows> bda: That would be quite simply the most awesome thing that could ever happen.  Sadly, it's not true. :-)
[04:24:59] <e^ipi> the whole indiana thing is just a distraction... the community is quite capable of putting together distros
[04:25:17] <g4lt-U60> nrubsig, as in "I agree with that point".  troo == true, dat == that
[04:25:30] <bda> haha.
[04:26:03] <CSFrost> "the community is getting too strong captain, what shall we do?"
[04:26:08] <nrubsig> g4lt-U60: there is more than one person willing but at least one "head" needs to me a fulltimer.
[04:26:16] <g4lt-U60> wesolows, maybe you need to start distributing copies of the cluetrain manifesto ;)
[04:26:24] <nrubsig> CSFrost: kill'em
[04:26:28] <CSFrost> "we will propose a distro, to break it into pieces, the ruckas will be so great it will rip in two"
[04:27:12] <noyb> wesolows: you need a pic in nf.  almost all your mates have one.
[04:27:27] <Tempt> Yow, just had a conversation with a DBA that speaks volumes about community perception. DBA: "I wouldn't mind running OpenSolaris on my laptop but there's no driver support." Me: "Check OpenSolaris? Lots more drivers in there" DBA: "One day of being on their mailinglists convinced me to keep well clear."
[04:27:49] <Tempt> err, make that Solaris in the first statement.
[04:27:52] <wesolows> noyb: yeah yeah, I'll get to it some day.
[04:28:09] <noyb> c'mon
[04:28:28] <gdamore> argh.  NSN and their "if we're not shipping it anymore, it isn't interesting" thinking.
[04:28:30] <Tempt> Not a good look, anyway.
[04:28:37] <richlowe> gdamore: NSN don't matter.
[04:28:43] <wesolows> Tempt: Well, I think I would have said "Try Solaris Express instead" rather than "try OpenSolaris"
[04:28:52] <gdamore> well, if  I have to get their approval to putback, it does.
[04:29:00] <richlowe> You shouldn't have to.
[04:29:07] <richlowe> as far as I can see, you don't.
[04:29:19] <Tempt> I'm just using OpenSolaris as a generic term for going to opensolaris.org and clicking on a download link.
[04:29:28] <brendang> Tempt: yep - which is a problem - I hope OpenSolaris can *learn* not to scare people away and encourage them instead
[04:29:37] <richlowe> gdamore: if the C-Team are asking you to, ask them to point to the public list of theirs stating so.
[04:29:41] <noyb> wesolows: you can't do worse than brendang modeling for an empty rack.  looks like a lot of gingerbread faceplates in there.
[04:29:43] <richlowe> gdamore: you'll get at least *one* thing fixed in the process.
[04:29:46] <wesolows> Tempt: But I agree wrt opensolaris-discuss, at any rate.  That's why I'm trying to use the project policy to eliminate all official uses of that list, so that people will stop using it.
[04:30:04] <g4lt-U60> there is one thing of interest that came out in the furrball.  who the hell populated the idea that opensolaris isn't the whole OE and is just the kernel?
[04:30:09] <Tempt> This guy's perception is that OpenSolaris has the same problems as Linux WRT infighting and potential for sloppy code.
[04:30:21] <richlowe> g4lt-U60: that would be idiots.
[04:30:24] <wesolows> Tempt: Interesting.  The former, true.  The latter, no.
[04:30:29] <richlowe> g4lt-U60: the same idiots alanc has been yelling at for two years.
[04:30:40] <Tempt> Yes, but we're talking perception here, not reality.
[04:30:45] <richlowe> the "It's just ON" attitude is all the more funny, given that ON have made close to the least progress of any consolidation involved.
[04:30:46] <wesolows> Tempt: Suggestions welcome.
[04:30:59] <g4lt-U60> richlowe, can we muzzle them?  if you want to refer tot he kernel, use SunOS, just liek it's been for the last decade
[04:31:00] <richlowe> and seemingly have the least desire to change that.
[04:31:07] <wesolows> Tempt: I do think getting our review, analysis, design docs, etc. online would help keep quality front and center...
[04:31:30] <wesolows> If the workflow were actually open, people would see that it's NOTHING like Linux.
[04:32:25] <e^ipi> but it's not
[04:32:46] <e^ipi> neither is the bug database
[04:32:49] <e^ipi> things go missing from it
[04:32:51] <Tempt> Well, we could install a filter for osol-discuss that rejects any post with "linux", "Red Hat", "Debian" etc in it.
[04:32:56] <brendang> noyb: the rack was new, and its storage was going to replace all those 2400 foot tapes that you see (assuming you found http://www.brendangregg.com/brendan.jpg somehow :)
[04:32:56] <wesolows> e^ipi: Well, I do drink a lot.  You seem to understand why.
[04:32:57] <sahafeez> anyone see this - so dang funny. http://community.livejournal.com/techsupport/1368038.html
[04:33:18] <wesolows> Tempt: Or better yet, just a filter that rejects 99 of every 100 postings randomly.
[04:33:26] <noyb> brendang: no, the pic in nf at work.
[04:33:35] <e^ipi> indiana is entirely pointless with the code repo/bug track system we're using... it's just another product from Sun Micro
[04:33:51] <brendang> noyb: ahh, yep, I did put it there - that's the same pic.
[04:34:47] <noyb> that must have been a fun project.
[04:35:10] <richlowe> e^ipi: the bug stuff needs fixed.
[04:35:19] <e^ipi> god does it ever
[04:35:24] <richlowe> wow, you parsed that.
[04:35:26] <noyb> brendang: did you get the tapes replaced before a disaster?
[04:35:41] <Tempt> Possibly the quickest way to cut through a lot of the bollocks for OpenSolaris would be to have a proposal system where people could write up their ideas / feature request / proposals and it just goes into a voting queue for a panel of (say) 50 evaluators
[04:35:46] * wesolows . o O ( no, after )
[04:35:53] <Tempt> If it makes it past the panel, it gets discussed and worked on. If it doesn't, it gets shelved.
[04:35:58] <delewis> Tempt: that's the way it worked internally at Sun.
[04:36:06] <delewis> you'd just to some internal mailing list and *poof*
[04:36:09] <delewis> you had a proposal.
[04:36:15] <wesolows> Tempt: That's effectively what the Groups are supposed to do.
[04:36:23] <richlowe> e^ipi: I think we can make some adjustsments that make that clearer.
[04:36:27] <delewis> send, I mean.
[04:36:31] <Tempt> It doesn't work though.
[04:36:41] <richlowe> e^ipi: in that I can rip out any scm-mig code that uses internal-only interfaces.
[04:36:42] <wesolows> Tempt: I'm not aware it's been tried.
[04:36:45] <richlowe> and people get to deal with that.
[04:37:03] <richlowe> I doubt it'd help though.
[04:37:49] <wesolows> Tempt: In fact, I know CSFrost has opened a discussion on some web site work in the Tools Group, and it's receiving focused - and actually useful - attention.
[04:37:56] <richlowe> e^ipi: while the bug stuff is intensely irritating on a daily basis, there are worse problems.
[04:38:11] <Tempt> I think the problem is people want too much. They want the traditional Solaris level of stability and design but they want new features to be released within a week. They want openness and transparency and community involvement but they don't want to write any code.
[04:38:12] * delewis points out how similar the situation with the bug DB, etc. is to the OpenDarwin situation.
[04:38:15] <brendang> noyb: the process was mostly complete when I quit as sysadmin, but I did find many tapes disintigrated when I tried to load them... hence the winder in the left of the photo (the operators would fast forward and rewind tapes once a year or so)
[04:38:18] <wesolows> Tempt: But, of couse, that sort of thing doesn't generate big threads on the rumour/flame/jackass list, so people tend to overlook it.
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[04:38:29] <e^ipi> delewis, and how's opendarwin doing now?
[04:38:36] *** flake has left #opensolaris
[04:38:41] <delewis> it died and was resurrected.
[04:38:42] <nachox> Tempt, yep
[04:38:43] <nrubsig> e^ipi: dead
[04:38:53] <e^ipi> was it ressurected, because i haven't heard anything of it
[04:39:06] <wesolows> Tempt: That's certainly true.  The first represents a legitimate technical tradeoff; the second is just laziness.
[04:39:41] <noyb> wesolows: which one is you here:  http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://farm1.static.flickr.com/3/5969227_c43a89cb3b.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.flickr.com/photos/jimgris/5969227/in/set-72057594074411901/&h=375&w=500&sz=140&hl=en&start=1&sig2=UKUqtrpLLotONz9wmFjX3g&um=1&tbnid=C5kBjMgYgM5BwM:&tbnh=98&tbnw=130&ei=BIVfRruEHZ6WggPxmLT1Bg&prev=/images%3Fq%3DKeith%2BWesolowski%26svnum%3D10%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mo
[04:39:41] <noyb> zilla:en-US:official
[04:39:42] <delewis> http://www.synack.net/~bbraun/writing/gettingos.txt
[04:39:49] <delewis> how similar does that sound to our current situation?
[04:40:01] <Tempt> And the fact that articles are appearing on El Reg makes the OpenSolaris community seem as shrill, petty and miserable as a small box containing RMS, ESR and a horde of 15 year old linux advocates on usenet for the first time.
[04:40:04] <delewis> specifically: Users are not
[04:40:04] <delewis> able to see bugs, interim releases, or have any insight into the development
[04:40:07] <delewis> process at all.
[04:40:20] <wesolows> noyb: on the right; the other guy is Bart
[04:40:25] <e^ipi> we're doing a little better than apple I think
[04:40:32] <delewis> of course we can see bugs, but all of us have seen the bugs that have *zero* useful information, and thus, might as well not be available.
[04:40:35] <e^ipi> however, that's not saying much
[04:40:40] <noyb> thanks
[04:40:50] <brendang> that's a bizarre photo. I've never seen Keith look so calm.
[04:41:03] <noyb> lol
[04:41:08] <delewis> http://www.synack.net/~bbraun/writing/osfail.html
[04:41:11] <wesolows> brendang: I was sleepy
[04:41:11] <delewis> that's a good one, too.
[04:41:18] <richlowe> delewis: that's actually going away fairly quickly.
[04:41:19] <delewis> i.e. things that we need to fix *yesterday*
[04:41:31] <richlowe> delewis: though certain people just adjust things to avoid the nag filter, many of them are actually getting the idea.
[04:41:39] <delewis> richlowe: good.
[04:41:40] <noyb> wesolows: are you the one behind foobazco?
[04:41:46] <wesolows> noyb: aye
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[04:45:21] <nachox> foobazco?
[04:45:32] <Tempt> brendang: You need to update your Sun book of records
[04:45:35] <wesolows> Nothing of much importance.
[04:45:48] <gdamore> wow... i stepped away for just a minute, and the history is _way_ back there.  a lot of chatter today.
[04:46:12] <e^ipi> it's one of those weeks i guess :)
[04:46:33] <wesolows> gdamore: Good point about conformance tests, btw.  I didn't mention it because my mail was getting too long already, but that's really a third project.
[04:46:49] <CSFrost> bleh, my inbox is taking a beating today too :-p
[04:47:21] <Tpenta> e^pi: did you get the b65 enc bins?
[04:47:59] <gdamore> wesolows: tks.
[04:48:31] <e^ipi> Tpenta, haven't grabbed them yet, are they up?
[04:48:42] <Tpenta> they went up about 30 hours ago
[04:48:47] <e^ipi> oh, heh
[04:48:51] <brendang> Tempt: that Sun book of records will go on the OpenSolaris wiki, if we ever get one
[04:48:52] <e^ipi> thanks :D
[04:48:59] <Tpenta> 'ello brendan
[04:49:15] <brendang> G'Day Alan
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[04:49:57] <CSFrost> IF IF IF :-p
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[04:50:28] <Tempt> We could just deploy a wiki on brendangregg.com and call it done.
[04:50:51] <richlowe> we have one on genunix.
[04:50:54] <richlowe> I still don't get why that's not enough.
[04:51:05] * Tempt shrugs
[04:51:10] <richlowe> CNAME wiki.opensolaris.org, whipe hands on pants, drink.
[04:51:46] <brendang> Tempt: brendangregg.com can't be accessed through the Great Wall of China, so they may get upset if the wiki was there
[04:51:58] <brendang> I mean, the Great FireWall
[04:52:08] <richlowe> brendang is a dissident? :)
[04:52:11] <Tempt> Host it on another IP?
[04:53:33] <brendang> Tempt: sounds costly
[04:53:37] <brendang> richlowe: who knows
[04:53:57] <CSFrost> richlowe, can't use an external cname, the dragons will be angered.
[04:54:01] <Tempt> brendang: I'll give you a zone on one of my colo boxes if you like.
[04:54:10] <brendang> richlowe: oh - and one of the suggestions was the genunix serve opensolaris.org, so that all the community pages were wiki pages
[04:54:24] <e^ipi> brendang, the Great Firwall between Sun & the community ?
[04:55:00] <richlowe> it's just as large between one part of sun and another.
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[04:55:37] <e^ipi> I don't doubt that
[04:55:48] <brendang> Tempt: my website isn't that important - I've been moving stuff off it in the past 8 months. at some point it will be a bunch of links to wikis and other sites (opensolaris.org, solarisinternals.com, sourceforge.net, cpan.org), and only host the stuff that noone else wants (specials.html :)
[04:56:01] <jamesd> its hosted in au, the continent that is^Wwas a penal colony ;-)
[04:56:15] <brendang> jamesd: ahh - that must be it!
[04:56:34] <Tpenta> you have to bne careful of us subversive aussies
[04:56:45] <brendang> jamesd: good thing they let me in (and out!) of China on several visits
[04:56:54] <CSFrost> I still need to do some tests and see how much of my gb fiber I can use before they complain :-P
[04:57:06] <Tempt> anyway, work calls.
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[05:05:36] <CSFrost> brendang, you mean the chinese firewall, or the sun firewall?
[05:05:38] <dclarke> gentlemen
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[05:05:44] <Tpenta> where?
[05:05:45] *** dduvall has joined #opensolaris
[05:05:48] * Tpenta grins
[05:05:49] <Tpenta> hey dennis
[05:05:56] <dclarke> good day Sir
[05:06:06] <CSFrost> Slugs
[05:06:09] <Tpenta> hello danek
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[05:06:19] * dclarke Slugs ?
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[05:06:28] <dclarke> is wesolows still here ?
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[05:06:51] <dclarke> any OGB types in the house ?
[05:07:00] <dclarke> wesolows :  ping
[05:07:10] <Vanga> Hi gurus
[05:07:11] <CSFrost> Would you rather be a slug, or a squirrel?
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[05:07:20] <sioraiocht> squirrel
[05:07:21] <sioraiocht> definitely
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[05:07:34] <sioraiocht> is glynn in here?
[05:07:36] <Vanga> I just installed SXDE build 65
[05:08:07] * dclarke * * * * * Public Service Annoucement from Blastwave.org * * * * * *
[05:08:08] <richlowe> That'd actually be SXCE.
[05:08:08] <Vanga> It didn't recognize RTL8201BL ethernet driver
[05:08:18] <richlowe> (though it'd still give you the option of the DE installer)
[05:08:34] * dclarke The Blastwave site will go offline at midnight EST ( in fifty minutes ) and be offline for hours
[05:08:41] * dclarke do not fret
[05:08:46] * dclarke I am working out some issues
[05:08:51] * dclarke * * * * * Public Service Annoucement from Blastwave.org * * * * * *
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[05:09:12] <jamesd> i guess sleep isn't one of the issues that dclarke plans to work on tonight
[05:09:33] <Tpenta> sure looks like it
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[05:09:48] <dclarke> I can't recall a decent nights sleep in a long time
[05:10:01] <dclarke> I'm dragging in a new switch
[05:10:08] <dclarke> as well as new ISP feed
[05:10:11] <dclarke> and other .. things
[05:10:30] *** chninkel has joined #opensolaris
[05:10:34] <dclarke> backups are becoming an issue .. switching to ZFS on the NFS server may also be in the works
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[05:10:46] * g4lt-U60 has 20G extyra, I oughta install win2k on my sunpci ;)
[05:11:09] <g4lt-U60> ...see if I can't get starcraft to play in the window
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[05:13:04] <dclarke> also .. gentlemen .. I have a con-call with Ian Murdock and Marc Hamilton in the morning .. anything in particular that you guys want me to bring up?  I am seen as a long term community guy outside of Sun that has done "lots of work" and I have my ideas on how to jumpstart this "close the gap" Indiana initiative.
[05:13:06] <bda> Mm. Starcraft.
[05:13:11] <gdamore> anyway, on the whole NSN thing, I'm not sure how I get approval to putback eri/hme/qfe changes without their approval.... without getting in serious trouble
[05:14:29] <g4lt-U60> first, disabuse him of the idea that opensolaris is "just the kernel", ITS THE WHOLE FUCKING OE
[05:14:32] <gdamore> dclarke: I think the main think that Ian has to understand is we want a community that is consensus driven, i.e. bazaar model, rather than cathedral model.  except we do have the community run committees.
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[05:15:08] <g4lt-U60> "solaris" has NEVER been used as a descriptor of the kernel
[05:15:26] <gdamore> i.e. folks aren't going to take kindly to even a benevolent dictator coming from Sun.
[05:15:35] <e^ipi> dclarke, drop indiana completely, it's a dumb idea.
[05:15:36] <dclarke> well .. I am one of the few people that has already spoken to Ian severl times and I think he understands my perspective on "community" driven
[05:15:49] <e^ipi> we need bugtraq & the source repo removed from inside sun's firewall
[05:16:08] <dclarke> e^ipi : we don't need to ask permissions for that .. we can "just do it"
[05:16:09] <CSFrost> http://www.milk.com/wall-o-shame/gorilla_suits.html
[05:16:21] <e^ipi> we can also fork solaris, but will it do us any good at the moment?
[05:16:32] <e^ipi> ... perhaps, but it's easier this way
[05:16:44] <gdamore> we want Sun's participation.
[05:16:54] <dclarke> I think that we need a productive relationship
[05:17:02] <gdamore> if Sun walks away from OpenSolaris, OpenSolaris will shrivel and die.
[05:17:03] <dclarke> not a combative one that descends into arguments
[05:17:21] <e^ipi> architectural decisions need to be moved to a public mailing list as well
[05:17:24] <dclarke> personally .. and I do speak my mind here , I am wondering wwhy we have a long term Linux man on toip of a Solaris decision
[05:17:32] <gdamore> e^ipi: they already are on public lists.
[05:17:47] <e^ipi> gdamore, i mean for new ideas
[05:18:07] <gdamore> dclarke: because nobody else at Sun has experience building a massive FOSS project?
[05:18:08] <dclarke> regardless .. one of the key items to discuss in the morning is how to jumpstart a large public repository of software for Solaris users .. past, present and future
[05:18:42] <gdamore> e^ipi: they are on public lists.... do you follow any of the ARC discussions?
[05:18:45] <dclarke> so .. I do have some experience in that regard .. as a business class service that simply does what needs to be done
[05:19:02] <gdamore> not all of them, mind you, but a lot of them.  and PSARC folks are actively trying to discourage the closed cases from being closed.
[05:19:13] <dclarke> I agree we need more transparancy with regards to some services .. like bug tracking ...
[05:19:36] <dclarke> but look at what we have achieved in 2 years .. from pure totally closed to .. whta we have now
[05:19:42] <gdamore> i'm not even so sure that 100% transparency is required.  but it should be possible for external folks to be vetted for full access.
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[05:19:55] <dclarke> also .. I think that the OpenSolaris.org website does little to engage the new visitor .. there is no active concent there
[05:20:09] <dclarke> but .. thats is also inside the Sun firewalls and we don't have access to it
[05:20:32] <dclarke> I plan to upgrade .. translate Blastwawe into a live site with feeds of info from various places
[05:20:35] <gdamore> websites are boring. :-)  i don't think the blastwave site was any more "exciting" ;-)
[05:20:41] <dclarke> the SystemNews folks are working with me on that
[05:20:51] <CSFrost> if you don't like something about opensolaris.org feel free to add to my discussion on tools-discuss
[05:20:58] <dclarke> gdamore :  I don't have a million dollar budget to run it either
[05:21:38] <dclarke> okay .. I need to focus on my upgrades or .. this thing won't get done tonight
[05:21:40] <gdamore> i'm not saying the site is bad, just its hard for me to get too excited about _any_ website.
[05:21:47] <Tpenta> good luck dennis
[05:21:58] <dclarke> Tpenta :  hey man .. thanks
[05:22:08] <dclarke> Tpenta :  are you still releaseign ND bits ?
[05:22:26] <dclarke> Tpenta :  I have not done a full build in a while .. just curious
[05:22:59] <CSFrost> gdamore, i mean if you'd like to say anything about it at all, it's a good chance now.
[05:23:28] <gdamore> actually, i don't have any better ideas for improvement.
[05:23:31] <Tpenta> yes, tyhe b65 bits have beenout for about 30 hours
[05:24:20] <dclarke> 30 hours .. that long?  I must be getting old to not have seen that :-)
[05:24:23] <dclarke> thanks !
[05:25:19] <gdamore> so on mxfe, i have a similar question, which is how do we decide whether the project warrants putback or not... i.e. who gets final approval?   there is no OpenSolaris PAC....
[05:26:30] <gdamore> (mxfe being my driver for a somewhat uncommon tulip clone)
[05:27:15] <gdamore> PSARC blessed it architecturally, and its been code reviewed, but I still don't know who gets to decide it is tested enough, and who has veto privileges for putback.
[05:27:27] <richlowe> gdamore: C-Team on the latter.
[05:27:34] <richlowe> except they don't, because the opensolaris ON has none.
[05:27:35] *** Tpenta changes topic to " Latest SXCE 65 | Latest ON 65 | Starter kits: http://get.opensolaris.org"
[05:27:45] <gdamore> it seems i pissed a few people off by putting back certain bits for SPARCLE, because there was no sustaning resources....
[05:27:58] <gdamore> and there was no manager assigned to own the project... etc.
[05:28:03] <wesolows> If it's not large enough to be a project, and it isn't, you probably haven't filled out a C-team checklist.
[05:28:20] <gdamore> nope.
[05:28:20] <wesolows> In which case you just need an RTI approval.
[05:28:23] <dclarke> C-team checklist ? ?
[05:28:29] <dclarke> what is a "C-team checklist" ?
[05:28:43] <jmcp> C-team == Consolidation Team
[05:28:43] <wesolows> Paperwork the C-team uses to help make sure your work is complete.
[05:29:17] <dclarke> after two years of opensolaris I often feel that the Sun corporate process has been made open so that external people can now work for free
[05:29:21] <dclarke> scary thought
[05:29:27] <wesolows> It's used for large complex pieces of work aka projects, and asks some questions that are useful (did you think of blah?) and others that are no longer relevant (is there some Sun resource for testing/sustaining/whatever this thing?)
[05:29:28] <Gman> export control, open source review - all the most useful paperwork :)
[05:29:58] <jmcp> useful for lawyers
[05:29:59] <gdamore> heh.  i recall in the past having to provide things like business justification, etc.
[05:30:00] <wesolows> Both of which fall into the irrelevant category.
[05:30:03] <jamesd> dclarke, most of us can't work, most of us are still trying to grasp the 20 million acronyms that sun people are always using...
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[05:30:15] <dclarke> jamesd : exactly my point
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[05:30:27] <gdamore> but if PSARC approval is sufficient, then maybe i can slip in underneath the radar with my fasttrack. :-)
[05:30:32] <dclarke> jamesd : PSARC .. ARC .. C-team etc etc etc
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[05:30:59] <wesolows> I don't see why you would need C-team review to putback a new driver, but you might ask a coworker for guidance.
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[05:31:18] <wesolows> I'm certainly not planning to go to review for mfio.
[05:31:42] <dclarke> gdamore :  hey man .. is that bug filed against the rge driver yours ? The RealTek ethernet driver issue ?
[05:31:55] <gdamore> nope.
[05:32:08] <dclarke> gdamore :  damn ..  I was hoping that you were involved ..
[05:32:09] <gdamore> at one point i offered to work on it, but i no longer have the hardware to do so.
[05:32:17] <dclarke> double damn
[05:32:27] <dclarke> I have that hardware right here in front of me
[05:32:36] <dclarke> I have been working with Masa Murayama on it
[05:32:42] <dclarke> thus far .. lots of nice errors
[05:32:53] <gdamore> heh.
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[05:34:02] <dclarke> okay .. I'll try to get the responsible engineer that has it on their desk .. its looking pretty dead though .. supposed to have been fixed in snv_58 and .. it ain't
[05:34:04] <richlowe> gdamore: if your RTI is approved, I'd go for it.
[05:34:09] <richlowe> gdamore: though you then have the bugster crud again.
[05:35:29] <gdamore> yeah, the bugster crud is pissing me off.
[05:36:19] <gdamore> i don't have the RTI though, and I'm not sure I can _get_ the RTI approved without approval from as-yet-undetermined individuals.
[05:37:03] <gdamore> a problem for a different day, though.
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[05:37:25] <richlowe> gdamore: file the RTI, set someone senior as the advocate.
[05:37:47] <richlowe> or as keith said, pick an experienced but sane coworker, and ask them.
[05:38:23] <jamesd> just list  jonathan schartz,  everyone will just pass it on through... no one will want to bother  jonathan for something so pidly ;-)
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[05:40:49] <gdamore> richlowe: yeah, I suppose I can pick someone senior.  Probably the advocates will let me putback without worrying about some of the other details.  Maybe I should just do that and deal with the fallout later.
[05:41:52] <richlowe> depending on what the fallout is, I think the fact it exists is the problem, not what you're doing.
[05:41:58] <richlowe> not doing something because stupid people say stupid things is not sane.
[05:45:53] <gdamore> wasn't someone keeping a cstyle.el or somesuch for emacs around?  i have one from a while ago, but it isn't quite right with cstyle (continuation line enforcement)
[05:46:53] <jbk> it'd be nice
[05:47:14] <gdamore> found it: http://www.opensolaris.org/os/community/on/cstyle/cstyle.el
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[05:57:31] <sbahra> Hi
[05:57:42] <sbahra> Gman, hey. I really would like the repository. Any news on that?
[05:58:01] <sbahra> Gman, if I don't have it by end of this weekend I'm just using SVN on my server. I need to start rolling the ball.
[05:58:22] <Gman> sbahra, i can provide one, but there's no 'create from clone' facility
[05:58:33] <Gman> so you'd essentially have to create a repo, then commit back a clone
[05:58:39] <sbahra> Gman, No need. Point is, if I just have some snap shot...
[05:58:48] <sbahra> Gman, so I can generate a patch easily.
[05:58:53] <sbahra> * For the merge, if it happens
[05:58:54] <Gman> if you want svn repo, i can do that easily
[05:59:07] <Gman> and i can do that now
[05:59:08] <sbahra> On OpenSolaris.org?
[05:59:11] <Gman> yeah
[05:59:14] <sbahra> Sure.
[05:59:22] <sbahra> What would be the URL to it?
[05:59:28] <Gman> what's your opensolaris id?
[05:59:34] <sbahra> NUL
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[05:59:38] <sbahra> Let me create one :-P
[05:59:41] <Gman> sbahra, thanks
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[06:00:33] <CIA-17> cg149915: 6510766 Audio not working upon reboot in nvx build 55, 6559629 SUNWaudiohd flagged as partial install after snv_55b -> snv_64a x86 upgrade
[06:00:35] <CIA-17> yw161884: 6547695 raidctl should support mirror over OS installed disk, 6556853 mpt plugin should check passthru ioctl reply infomation
[06:00:36] <CIA-17> barts: 6549846 backtrace() visibility after including ucontext.h breaks ruby build
[06:00:37] <simford> Gman: is there any way to create branches/tags for one sub-module only in SVN repository?
[06:00:54] <Gman> i think so
[06:00:55] <sbahra> Gman, just waiting for confirmation e-mail now.
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[06:00:58] <sbahra> Gman, my username is 'sbahra'
[06:01:07] <sbahra> simford, yes.
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[06:01:21] <sbahra> simford, SVN doesn't have the traditional form of branches/tags/etc...you just do a copy.
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[06:01:33] <Gman> sbahra, repo name?
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[06:01:39] <simford> Gman, sbahra: but the tags info is global, right?
[06:01:42] <Gman> bpf-gsoc?
[06:01:43] <sbahra> Gman, "bpf"
[06:01:46] <sbahra> simford, yes.
[06:01:55] <Gman> sbahra, has to be at least 4 characters :/
[06:01:58] <sbahra> haha
[06:02:07] * sbahra prefers not to have gsoc
[06:02:08] <simford> sbahra: can it be locally belong to one submodule only?
[06:02:15] <sbahra> I hope to work on it after too.
[06:02:15] <Gman> sbahra, yeah, me too
[06:02:21] <sbahra> Gman, "bpfilter"
[06:02:24] <Gman> ta
[06:02:39] <Gman> sbahra, notifications?
[06:02:40] <sbahra> simford, no.
[06:02:46] <sbahra> Gman, e-mail or?
[06:02:47] <simford> sbahra: :(
[06:02:54] <sbahra> simford, no such thing as a 'module' really.
[06:03:00] <Gman> sbahra, you have the option of having a notification going to an email
[06:03:05] <Gman> perhaps i should point to summerofcode
[06:03:18] <Gman> actually, i think i will
[06:03:18] <sbahra> simford, a repository is a repository. You can copy a path...and that 'branch'/copy will inherit the versioning information of that path.
[06:03:29] <sbahra> simford, if that path is already a branch with its own line, then...yes.
[06:03:48] <Gman> sbahra, go into the summerofcode project page, and add yourself as someone interested
[06:04:24] <simford> sbahra: eg, trunk/module1, trunk/module2
[06:04:25] <simford> I want to create a tag for trunk/module2 only. this is not possible, right?
[06:04:40] <sbahra> simford, It is possible to copy it, yes.
[06:04:47] <sbahra> simford, take a look http://threads.seas.gwu.edu/
[06:04:56] <sbahra> simford, click on the "I/O" thing, "Browse Source"
[06:04:59] <sbahra> simford, look at "posix" and "posix-1"
[06:05:00] <simford> sbahra: thanks a bunch!
[06:05:06] <sbahra> Gman, ok.
[06:05:58] <sbahra> Gman, done.
[06:06:09] <simford> sbahra: that's the branches? how about tags?
[06:06:28] <sbahra> No such thing really.
[06:07:02] <Gman> sbahra, last thing, add your ssh public key to your profile and you're done
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[06:07:46] <Gman> vn co svn+ssh://sbahra at svn dot opensolaris.org/svn/summerofcode/bpfilter/trunk bpfilter
[06:07:50] <Gman> [i hope]
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[06:07:59] <sbahra> svn+ssh ewwwww
[06:08:04] <richlowe> Hm, the bpf stuff is in svn?
[06:08:15] <Gman> sbahra, :)
[06:08:18] <sbahra> richlowe, soon hopefully.
[06:08:20] <richlowe> Gman: why in the world was I trying to assist you again?
[06:08:27] <sbahra> haha
[06:08:31] <simford> sbahra: svn doesn't use tags, as CVS?
[06:08:35] <Gman> richlowe, was asking about the hg stuff
[06:08:50] <richlowe> well, if a contributor wants to make life hard on himself, I'm fine with that.
[06:08:52] <Gman> richlowe, seemingly there's no website mechanism to clone onnv as hg clone
[06:08:59] <sbahra> simford, it's a bit different. Google "The SVN Book"
[06:09:02] <richlowe> Gman: No, as I said, you'd have to ask tonic.
[06:09:04] <sbahra> simford, check the section on tags/branches
[06:09:14] <Gman> richlowe, i did, they said clone then commit
[06:09:17] <richlowe> Gman: it's a long standing RFE, so asking why in the world they never fixed it would be good too.
[06:09:19] <simford> sbahra: thanks again
[06:09:22] <richlowe> Gman: Who?
[06:09:31] <richlowe> Gman: I *know* stevel has done this for people before, what's the problem now?
[06:09:47] <simford> Gman: mercurial/hg support on opensolaris.org is ready now?
[06:10:01] <sbahra> The key doesn't match the regular expression "[\d]+ [\d]+ [\d]+ [[:graph:]]+"
[06:10:05] <sbahra> Gman, ?
[06:10:09] <richlowe> sbahra: remove *all* newlines.
[06:10:10] <simford> Gman: if I have a project on OS.o, can I use mercurial as repository now?
[06:10:11] <Gman> richlowe, sch said that a clone and a push was needed
[06:10:12] <richlowe> sbahra: including the one at the end.
[06:10:16] <sbahra> Ok.
[06:10:17] <Gman> simford, yes
[06:10:26] <richlowe> Gman: sch is wrong, he can clone it on the gate machine, and save you a lot of effort and bandwidth.
[06:10:50] <Gman> sbahra, if you ever want to move to using hg to sync onnv, i can try and push again
[06:10:53] <richlowe> Gman: (and one *gigantic* initial notification message, too)
[06:11:07] <Gman> yeah, was worried i'd do something stupid
[06:11:22] <richlowe> I'd have done it for you (and told sch he was wrong) if you'd asked.
[06:11:25] <simford> Gman: thanks. I still prefer SVN, since mercurial doesn't support empty dirs, and symbolic links. http://blogs.sun.com/simford/entry/difference_between_subversion_and_mercurial
[06:11:34] <richlowe> I can't get onto the machine, obviously, but I'd have done the initial push to save you all the effort.
[06:11:59] <Gman> i would have done it myself too
[06:12:04] <Gman> [not that i know how to do it]
[06:12:04] <sbahra> richlowe, not working.
[06:12:14] <richlowe> It appears you need to talk to sch again then.
[06:12:25] <richlowe> unless you're pasting the wrong key.
[06:12:31] <Gman> there's different key options
[06:12:33] <sbahra> No.
[06:12:39] <Gman> make sure you're using the right drop down
[06:12:42] <sbahra> ssh-rsa AAAAB3NzaC1yc2EAAAABIwAAAQEAvp2fOtpY/RnrCMRfZYtT36DP5ulsb7mCM/heZAbr/d7M+Ty7SxzpHd/d3hb0IneaODJVqzjKfZq0GXqUzxztYQEQjbpNDeB4luiT+AZy91BepU4P/PQJqfykMOwO14CMaFJjzDIv5HKFTriKNqGA15bVkQDPgxx1H5518Nw1XGiZ50Q7CYt9/4RU7YIKANctwj+QFH+Sc8lemINmOHcbFgsG6g+1IkaAD9ZchYAsLDJOrqq6w1G+/3KoJrUGuzqQwkXZbynKWGwA5JDeeJv3EIb6elbmII9KOVfj2mgYN/Q0gjF8qEOOWhyg4lNZg3cAAqioVUfx1gsclqPNoZ4Zzw== sbahra@chrome
[06:12:53] <Gman> newline at the end of chrome?
[06:12:55] <jmcp> did you really want to paste that here?
[06:12:57] <sbahra> I am using RSA 1, which should be correct.
[06:13:00] <sbahra> Gman, I removed it.
[06:13:03] <sbahra> jmcp, yes.
[06:13:08] <sbahra> jmcp, it's my public key.
[06:13:13] <richlowe> jmcp: oh noes! a public key!
[06:13:14] <noyb> it's public.  no prob
[06:13:37] * jmcp summons the paparazzi to photograph the public key
[06:13:42] <jmcp> sbahra: just checking
[06:13:46] <noyb> we trust the math.  some more than others.  :-)
[06:14:27] <sbahra> Strange this is.
[06:15:08] <richlowe> sbahra: it's incredibly picky.
[06:15:20] <richlowe> there's no good reason for it, but apparently it isn't yet fixed.
[06:15:53] <richlowe> Gman: if sch is still around, you probably want to go ask him about this, too.
[06:16:02] <richlowe> of course, if sch was actually around *outside* sometimes...
[06:16:36] <Gman> nod
[06:17:30] <CSFrost> Gman, you have a pm when you get a chance :-P
[06:20:04] <richlowe> maintaining an ON workspace in subversion is going to be a pain in the ass, too.
[06:23:08] <sbahra> richlowe, why?
[06:24:02] <richlowe> Because you're going to have to merge it by hand?
[06:24:34] <sbahra> Shouldn't be a problem.
[06:24:41] <sbahra> I'll be trying to isolate BPF for that.
[06:24:46] <sbahra> The only issue will be the drivers.
[06:25:18] <noyb> well, I was underwhelmed with the register article.  Maybe "article" is too strong of a word.  What do they call that kind of thing in the National Enquirer?
[06:25:51] <richlowe> that and various of the ON specific tools do not, and will not, support subversion.
[06:25:56] <richlowe> I'm not sure how big an issue that will be for you.
[06:28:27] <e^ipi> Hg isn't terrible
[06:28:41] <e^ipi> why not just use that?
[06:29:52] <richlowe> e^ipi: partly, seemingly, because they didn't get crud in the way of help.
[06:30:05] <richlowe> but I don't see any problem in whatever they choose to use.
[06:30:08] <richlowe> (for people other than them)
[06:30:25] <e^ipi> they = ?
[06:31:07] <richlowe> people dealing with that project.
[06:31:19] <richlowe> if, over all, it's easier to use something they're familiar with, I don't see why they shouldn't.
[06:31:28] <richlowe> but it's good to be aware that various of the tools won't be there to support them.
[06:39:48] <e^ipi> it's just sbahra working on the project innit?
[06:43:22] <delewis> are certain Teamware users till whining about Hg?
[06:43:29] <delewis> s/till/still/
[06:44:03] <richlowe> e^ipi: I don't know.
[06:44:19] <richlowe> delewis: I don't know of anyone on the solaris who complained.
[06:44:28] <richlowe> delewis: if you're referring to shannon, he's not on the solaris side of things.
[06:44:37] <delewis> ah.
[06:44:48] <richlowe> so he can complain all he likes, and his own community can fix it.
[06:44:51] <delewis> I just remember that something spawned the Teamware-Hg conversion kit, or whatever its called.
[06:44:53] <richlowe> (unless it's bugs in *our* tools, obviously)
[06:47:20] <dclarke> anyone here know their way around ipf better than me ?  ( dumb question ) because this looks wrong to me :
[06:47:25] <dclarke> # /usr/sbin/ipf -Fa -f /etc/ipf/ipf.conf
[06:47:30] <dclarke> ioctl(SIOCIPFFL): I/O error
[06:48:55] <dclarke> # svcadm -v enable svc:/network/ipfilter
[06:48:57] <dclarke> svc:/network/ipfilter:default enabled.
[06:48:58] <dclarke>   and now the machine is totally non-responsive .. lovely
[06:53:15] <e^ipi> just wrap that in a script and throw it in /usr/bin/autobreak
[06:54:43] <dclarke> ask me if I am having fun ...
[06:55:02] <e^ipi> hmm...
[06:55:18] <e^ipi> googling "what time is it" actually brings me a site that tells me the current time
[06:55:23] <e^ipi> kudos google...
[06:55:38] <dclarke> in your timezone ?
[06:56:54] <e^ipi> yep
[06:57:09] <dclarke> want to see something just amazing ?
[06:57:10] <e^ipi> plus all the other ones in n. america
[06:57:11] <e^ipi> sure
[06:57:20] <dclarke> # date
[06:57:21] <dclarke> Fri Jun  1 00:56:55 EDT 2007
[06:57:28] <dclarke> Solaris tells me the time too
[06:57:38] <e^ipi> it's telling me it's 5 am
[06:57:47] <e^ipi> and the time doesn't persist across boots so i don't bother setting it
[06:57:58] <dclarke> so setup NTP
[06:58:44] <e^ipi> it's a laptop, i don't always have network connectivity
[06:58:45] <dclarke> what I need right now is a fast port scanner
[06:58:56] <dclarke> nmap takes bloody hours to run generally
[06:59:05] <e^ipi> ?
[06:59:15] <e^ipi> only ever takes me a couple mins. on my local network
[06:59:25] <dclarke> must be my options then
[06:59:31] <dclarke> it takes hours for me .. locally
[07:00:28] <CIA-17> gp87344: 6564339 moddir in /etc/system is broken
[07:05:09] <sahafeez> it would be cooler if it just gave you the time and did not bring you to a site.
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[07:09:08] <e^ipi> sahafeez, that would be cool, wouldn't it?
[07:14:39] <sahafeez> yes, it does it for math like 4+4 or sqr 43
[07:16:11] <sahafeez> so why not the time
[07:16:32] <sahafeez> hum, now if it just answer things like "where did i leave the keys" or "why is my wife pissed off"
[07:16:40] <Tempt> easy
[07:16:51] <Tempt> "Where you left them" and "Because you're whining about your keys".
[07:17:21] <e^ipi> "check the couch, man" and "god... who knows, women are crazy"
[07:17:32] <e^ipi> google the drinking buddy
[07:18:03] <jmcp> "in the fridge, with your groceries that you don't want to forget to take home"
[07:18:10] <jmcp> keys, that is
[07:18:35] <g4lt-U60> dclarke, try strobe
[07:18:51] <dclarke> thanks
[07:19:00] <dclarke> multiple things happening here .. at the same time
[07:19:05] <dclarke> busy busy ..
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[07:21:41] <richlowe> hey jmcp.
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[07:22:55] <jmcp> hi richlowe
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[07:43:35] * CSFrost checks to see if dclarke knocked himself unconcious
[07:43:58] <dclarke> not yet
[07:44:04] <dclarke> it will be a long night however
[07:44:16] <CSFrost> k, just checking
[07:44:34] <dclarke> actually .. I'm going to load some tapes .. then watch ufsdump do what it does
[07:44:41] <CSFrost> probably a short night for me, I just had to pick my head off the keyboard while writing an email.
[07:45:32] <Tempt> Nothing like watching ufsdump.
[07:45:33] <Tempt> Thrilling.
[07:45:55] <jmcp> Tempt: it's more thrilling if you have to use the cvcd and jtag for your console output
[07:46:12] <Tempt> Really?
[07:46:16] <Tempt> That much more thrilling?
[07:47:02] <jmcp> iirc, it was so thrilling that I saw a level0 dump run at 1Gb / hour
[07:47:13] <jmcp> in single-user
[07:47:22] <e^ipi> w00t
[07:47:25] <jmcp> to a directly-attached DLT8000
[07:48:45] <Tempt> Nah
[07:48:54] <Tempt> I want to see that ufsdump to 9track
[07:49:12] <jmcp> that particular DC did have some 9tracks still connected to aging machines
[07:50:50] <dclarke> I still have QIC tapes here
[07:50:57] <dclarke> and 8mm and 4mm
[07:51:01] <dclarke> and DLT of course
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[07:57:17] <e^ipi> well, that's fantastic... i should go to bed
[07:57:36] <e^ipi> i just spent a half hour writing some code that already exists because i didn't check my "list of stuff to do "
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[08:14:04] <Tempt> anyway
[08:14:07] <Tempt> time for a quick beer.
[08:14:43] <quasi> a bit too early for beer
[08:15:12] <brendang> beer sounds great
[08:15:15] <richlowe> blasphemy!
[08:15:20] <richlowe> it's never too early for beer.
[08:16:04] <quasi> richlowe: 08:14 < Tempt> time for a quick beer.
[08:16:13] <e^ipi> so?
[08:16:15] <Tempt> [16:14] <Tempt> time for a quick beer.
[08:16:25] <brendang> 23:18 < Tempt> time for a quick beer.
[08:16:27] <quasi> richlowe: it just doesn't do all that well with the morning coffee
[08:16:52] <e^ipi> quasi, you're right... better make it kaluha
[08:17:01] <e^ipi> or irish cream
[08:17:07] <quasi> e^ipi: that's just sick!
[08:17:12] <e^ipi> ?
[08:17:15] <e^ipi> fine, whiskey, whatever
[08:17:53] <e^ipi> i'm not big on ruining a good coffee by putting crap in it, but whatever
[08:17:58] <quasi> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gammel_Dansk would be the traditional thing
[08:18:17] <quasi> not for putting in the coffee, but for a morning drink
[08:18:54] <richlowe> sigh.
[08:19:03] <richlowe> how the hell is realplayer picking an audio device?
[08:19:09] <e^ipi> dice?
[08:19:12] <e^ipi> coins?
[08:19:20] <richlowe> I could believe it.
[08:19:23] <boyd> 3d4+2
[08:19:30] <_syphilis_> hmm, does solaris include anything like BSD's libdb? (simple on-disk database)
[08:19:39] <e^ipi> sqlite ?
[08:20:16] <e^ipi> boyd, critical hit, you slice completely through him
[08:20:22] <e^ipi> 3400XP
[08:20:30] <boyd> woohoo!
[08:21:02] <richlowe> it appears if you unplug USB audio, realplayer insists on continuing to attempt to use it.
[08:21:10] <richlowe> possibly any audio device, though usb is obviously the easiest to remove.
[08:21:15] <e^ipi> solution: don't do that
[08:21:24] <quasi> _syphilis_: SunOS/BSD Compatibility Library Functions               dbm(3UCB)
[08:21:35] <_syphilis_> quasi: aha.  thanks
[08:21:40] <_syphilis_> wonder if it still works.. :)
[08:21:57] <_syphilis_> ah, ndbm(3C)
[08:22:04] <quasi> yeah, that too
[08:22:09] <e^ipi> when are we just going to jettison /usr/ucb anyways?
[08:22:19] <quasi> never
[08:22:22] <e^ipi> drats
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[08:23:08] <quasi> /usr/ucb/ps is too nice to have ;)
[08:23:19] <e^ipi> i never use it
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[08:23:39] <e^ipi> actually, is the ucb stuff all in a single package that i can just remove ?
[08:24:08] <_syphilis_> why, do you need the 1MB of disk space back?
[08:24:25] <richlowe> there's bits of it that actively cause problems.
[08:24:36] <richlowe> it'd be good to kill those.
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[08:39:11] <brendang> Tpenta: ping
[08:39:17] <Tpenta> brendang ACK
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[09:49:01] <e^ipi> why? why do i do this to myself?
[09:49:09] <e^ipi> i have to get up in 4 hours for work
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[10:07:33] <estibi> :)
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[10:24:30] <sickness> http://www.sun.com/bigadmin/jsp/descFile.jsp?url=descAll/cygwin__gnu_+_cygnu <- this link still doesn't work :/
[10:24:33] <sickness> I was intersted...
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[10:33:24] <timf_> hi all
[10:37:42] <raph_ael> hello
[10:38:12] <estibi> hi
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[10:40:12] <e^ipi> yoyoyo
[10:43:29] <estibi> e^ipi: are u sleeping ? ;)
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[10:44:55] <estibi> or will you have been sleeping for 2h?:)
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[10:51:20] <Berny> morning
[10:54:56] <estibi> morning Berny
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[11:51:15] <Murmuria> SunTzuTech, hi, yesterday you recomended qemu, I was wondering if you could help
[11:51:51] <Murmuria> I am finding it difficult wthout internet on native OSol, so I installed qemu on my linux
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[11:53:36] <Murmuria> Gman, hi!
[11:53:44] <Berny> hey Gman , Tpenta
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[11:54:18] <timf_> I see Gman's famous now - El Reg article at http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/05/31/sun_project_indiana/
[11:54:19] <Murmuria> wanted you to change something in that feed you are reading on planet/soc2007
[11:54:21] <Tpenta> hey berny
[11:54:54] <Murmuria> Gman, could you read only those messages tagged "opensolaris" and "summerofcode"
[11:55:16] <Murmuria> Gman, I wish to blog off-topic also
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[12:00:10] <Murmuria> Gman, SunTzuTech I think I should come back later in the evening, it must be early morning over there...
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[12:00:22] <richlowe> timf_: yeah, he's not exactly thrilled, either.
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[12:00:44] <timf_> I can well imagine, doesn't paint the p
[12:00:49] <Pietro_S> hmm, I wonder what I need to include so suncc can undestand size_t type :-(
[12:00:52] <timf_> ..roject in the best light imho
[12:01:12] <_syphilis_> pietro: <stdlib.h>
[12:01:19] <seanmcg> Pietro_S type.h ?
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[12:01:51] <Pietro_S> what is difference btw. cstdlib and stdlib ?
[12:01:52] <seanmcg> sys/types.h even
[12:02:08] <_syphilis_> <cstdlib> is for C++
[12:02:19] <_syphilis_> "cc" is a C compiler, so dont use cstdlib
[12:02:48] <Pietro_S> actually I use it in c++ code, so I guess that compiler is sunCC
[12:03:01] <_syphilis_> then you want std::size_t, which is in <cstdlib>
[12:03:27] <Pietro_S> _syphilis_: thanks, that's where is bug digged
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[12:08:16] <Pietro_S> I really hope that my idea (about central database of gccimsms which sunCC doesn't understand) will be accepted for SFE package managment
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[12:14:03] <sickness> any dvd ripping frontends for sxce?
[12:14:18] <Berny> dd?
[12:14:29] <sickness> ...
[12:14:40] <cypromis> dd works fine
[12:15:05] <sickness> ok, what about ripping and then transcoding to xvid? >:)
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[12:16:11] <pablomh> where can I find SXCE 65 ?
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[12:16:22] <pablomh> I can only find 64a ...
[12:16:29] <cypromis> in the aource
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[12:17:51] <seanmcg> sickness: HandBrake..
[12:19:01] <sickness> tnx, I'll see :)
[12:20:04] <seanmcg> Its a bit of work to get it compiled, it wants to staticlly link _everything_ it needs into its binary..  also wants to pull down its dependencies itself and compile em.
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[12:21:38] <sickness> seanmcg: project site seems cool, but you are telling to me that there's no binary package anywhere for it? :/
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[12:23:00] <richlowe> pablomh: same url, different numbers.
[12:23:23] <seanmcg> sickness; never found one for solaris, had to build me own...
[12:23:29] <richlowe> sadly, the better scripts on opensolaris.org went down in flames again, and are currently thinking b243 is the place to be...
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[12:24:13] <richlowe> oh my, *both* sets of download links on os.org are opaque?
[12:24:18] <richlowe> what loon thought *that* was a good idea.
[12:24:22] <richlowe> pablomh: I assume you mean SX:CE, yes?
[12:24:32] <Vanuatoo> download only shows b64a. Where is SXCE 65?
[12:25:07] <richlowe> http://javashoplm.sun.com/ECom/docs/Welcome.jsp?StoreId=7&PartDetailId=Sol-Express_b65-DVD-x86-SP-G-B&TransactionId=try
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[12:25:16] <pablomh> richlowe, yes
[12:25:23] <Auralis> sickness: mplayer/mencoder can rip and transcode DVDs
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[12:25:54] <pablomh> richlowe, thanks :) why it's not linked in the main download page ?
[12:25:59] <richlowe> pablomh: no idea.
[12:26:22] <richlowe> maybe it's not official "there" yet, maybe dcicero just hasn't updated it yet.
[12:26:28] <pablomh> ok
[12:26:34] <pablomh> thanks anyway :)
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[12:29:12] <sickness> Auralis: yeah, but you need some scripting at least...
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[12:48:33] <spiff-> If I've installen b63 with core system support only, and want to install bash..how do I do it? I can't find it in Products. Thanks
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[12:49:50] <Doc> pkgadd SUNWbash
[12:50:14] <spiff-> Doesn't exist in there afaik
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[12:52:23] <PerterB> that's surprising, it was SUNWbash from Solaris 8 through to b62 which is the latest I have to hand
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[12:52:46] <spiff-> ls -l Products | grep bash ... nothing
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[12:54:16] <sickness> find Products -name SUNWbash
[12:55:13] <timf_> Yep, it's SUNWbash in nv_65 at least..
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[12:58:14] <spiff-> ah, in Product/.virtual_packages/
[12:58:27] <spiff-> I used pkgadd -d .
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[13:00:24] <spiff-> hmm, they don't seem to be packages
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[13:07:02] <_syphilis_> what does fdatasync() not sync?  modification time, permissions, etc?
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[13:38:47] <estibi> does anyone have GeForce 6100 chipset ?
[13:39:12] <whaq> Nope
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[13:40:52] <estibi> i am going to build low cost desktop and i don't know is it supported under SXCE
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[13:43:31] <estibi> nForce 430/400
[13:45:43] <whaq> I've done a test install on an nforce3 small pc
[13:45:52] <whaq> w/ a geforce 7800
[13:45:55] <whaq> worked well
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[13:50:58] <estibi> whaq: SATA or ATA disks ?
[13:52:31] <quasi> estibi: see the hcl, but I have a system running just fine on nf 430
[13:52:54] <e^ipi> the hcl is a little out of date at any given time
[13:53:07] <estibi> e^ipi: true
[13:53:32] <estibi> ok, thanks guys :)
[13:53:39] <quasi> e^ipi: sure, but if your gear is on it you should be fine
[13:53:52] <quasi> estibi: http://soulfood.dk/archives/2006/03/22/T22_32_20/index.html is what I used
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[14:13:30] <whaq> estibi: it was ide. but i also have a different rig (nforce4) w/ sata drives
[14:14:06] <quasi> mine is nforce4 with sata - no problem once the hw raid is turned off
[14:14:26] <whaq> u mean the 'hw' raid on motherboard?
[14:14:49] <quasi> yeah, nvidias
[14:14:56] <whaq> if you're on solaris you'd be much better off on zfs anyway
[14:14:59] <whaq> aye
[14:15:39] <renihs> fraid
[14:15:45] <renihs> the nforce4 fraid is complete dumb
[14:15:52] <renihs> it doesnt even realise when a disk is dead
[14:16:05] <renihs> the only thing i figured it could check if the disk is removed :p
[14:16:16] <whaq> yeah
[14:16:24] <whaq> it'll tell you by a hardware crash probably
[14:16:30] <renihs> i mean, i have 2 mirror disks, i remove one and plug in a new one...
[14:16:37] <renihs> nforce fraid sais: all ok
[14:16:38] <renihs> :p
[14:16:59] <renihs> thats not invalid but hmmmmmm....
[14:17:34] <Berny> is there an option to the kernel so it steps through stuff? i have a box just rebooting at boot, but -v is too fast to see where it happens...
[14:18:01] <quasi> whaq: except zfs boot wasn't supported when I bought the machine
[14:18:52] <whaq> i still don't have a zfs boot either
[14:19:46] <quasi> neither do I, but that's only because I haven't had the time to put together the next machine
[14:25:32] <Pietro_S> Berny: it also write to some log,  I guess dmesg
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[14:29:39] <Berny> Pietro_S: which it flushes when syslogd is running... to that stage i never get
[14:29:50] <Berny> i get the copyright notice and bang
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[14:32:05] <timf_> Berny, can you boot using kmdb ?
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[14:32:58] <Berny> timf_: how would i do that?
[14:33:26] <timf_> When you get to the grub menu entry after bios,
[14:33:33] <timf_> hit 'e' to edit the entry
[14:33:46] <timf_> then change the line that starts:
[14:33:55] <timf_> kernel /platform/i86pc/kernel/unix....
[14:33:57] <timf_> to read
[14:34:08] <timf_> kernel /platform/i86pc/kernel/unix -k
[14:34:44] <timf_> Now it's possible your machine is dying before kmdb gets loaded, but otherwise, if you're seeing a panic,
[14:34:58] <timf_> it'll drop you out to a kmdb prompt, rather than just resetting the machine.
[14:35:05] <Berny> ah!
[14:35:10] <Berny> let's give it a shot
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[14:36:26] <timf_> More at http://blogs.sun.com/dmick/entry/diagnosing_kernel_hangs_panics_with
[14:37:11] <Berny> AH!
[14:37:12] <Berny> got it
[14:37:27] <Berny> i really get a little annoyed
[14:37:45] <Berny> f*cks up because it cannot open the md on which / is
[14:38:27] <Berny> lu would be nice if biosdev would get fixed to report stuff right for identical disks
[14:39:25] <timf_> Not really sure where you go from here - you're using SVM yeah ?
[14:39:45] <Berny> yeah
[14:39:56] <Berny> now that i know that... i can fix it
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[14:40:05] <timf_> There should be a way to boot off just one side of the mirror (I think)
[14:40:12] <timf_> Oh, cool.
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[14:40:49] <Berny> well boot failsafe set / to be on the "real" disk...
[14:40:56] <timf_> Gotcha.
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[14:44:14] <_syphilis_> why does a file have to exist before you can fattach() it?  wouldn't it make more sense for fattach to create the file?
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[15:09:06] <anilg> Has there been any Indiana talk here?
[15:09:17] <alanbur> Noooooooooooo!!!!!!!! ;-)
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[15:11:40] * quasi kicks anilg - isn't it enough that pretty much every list @opensolaris gets spammed with that useless project?
[15:11:57] <alanbur>  /ignore Indiana
[15:12:05] <alanbur> ;-)
[15:12:31] <quasi> alanbur: aye, I've seen more than I want and I'm not even on osol-discuss
[15:13:07] <alanbur> Yeah, let's talk about something else - hows the weather? ;-)
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[15:13:27] <quasi> very nice indeed :)
[15:13:52] <quasi> well tempered for a few beers
[15:14:22] <alanbur> Mmmmm.....Beer......
[15:14:31] * alanbur has a Homer Simpson moment
[15:15:23] <anilg> Hmm..
[15:15:57] <anilg> ok how about movies.. I have a bet going wiht my friend who claims pirates 3 made 400 million $ in the opening weekend worldwide
[15:16:08] <alanbur> Saw it last weekend
[15:16:11] <anilg> true?
[15:16:35] <alanbur> Better than #2 but not as good as #1
[15:17:23] <anilg> BTW.. who here is in SUN, menlo park, CA
[15:17:35] <anilg> i'm coming to the US soon
[15:18:00] <CSFrost> Those here in Menlo are probably sleeping :-P
[15:18:08] <anilg> ow.
[15:18:09] <cypromis> or at linuxtag in berlin
[15:18:11] <cypromis> :)
[15:18:13] * alanbur Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz......
[15:18:47] <CSFrost> Or up early :-P
[15:18:55] <alanbur> Naw, I'm in the UK
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[15:20:39] <anilg> Ian Mrdock is in Menlo?
[15:20:45] <jmcp> anilg: the news reports said that Pirates3 took around $420million USD last weekend
[15:21:16] <anilg> man! must be a record
[15:21:23] <Doc> and apparently it still sucked
[15:21:29] <CSFrost> For someone who doesn't watch tv.. what is "Pirates 3"? :-)
[15:21:29] <anilg> i figured shrek 3 did better than pirates
[15:21:47] <jmcp> CSFrost: Pirates of the Caribbean 3
[15:21:50] <anilg> movie.. pirates of caribbean 3
[15:21:59] <Doc> shrek 3 is good
[15:22:10] <CSFrost> oh okay, nothing I should be concerned with I guess :-)
[15:22:19] <Doc> not exactly the most memorable movie you'll ever seen (in fact, i'm not 100% sure I've actually seen it!) but it's still good
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[15:24:04] <alanbur> I thought Ian Murdock lived in Indiana?
[15:24:19] <jbk> morning
[15:24:30] <alanbur> Afternoon
[15:24:35] * Doc hands alanbur a cookie
[15:24:40] <CSFrost> no, in the state of Confusion.
[15:24:41] <jbk> did he piss someone off?
[15:24:46] * alanbur giggles
[15:24:58] * jmcp wanders off
[15:25:01] <jmcp> gnite
[15:25:08] <CSFrost> no, everyone left too confused :-P
[15:25:09] <Doc> nite james
[15:25:12] <CSFrost> Night James.
[15:25:15] <alanbur> No, I *really* think he lives in Indiana
[15:25:23] <jbk> poor guy
[15:25:33] <CSFrost> hehe
[15:25:44] <Doc> ok.. that might explain thing a little...
[15:25:50] <jbk> (I speak as someone who grew up and lived in indiana for 20 years)
[15:26:09] <Doc> wtf is Indiana?
[15:26:21] <quasi> Doc: you don't want to know
[15:26:26] <CSFrost> It's a confederate state.
[15:26:31] <jbk> haha
[15:26:32] <Doc> central west or something?
[15:26:39] <Doc> ahh.. ok.. nuff said
[15:26:45] <jbk> it's between illinois & ohio
[15:26:50] <jbk> and south of michigan
[15:26:52] <Doc> where are they? :)
[15:26:56] <CSFrost> Just past the Mason Brick'n line.
[15:27:01] <alanbur> Is thay somewhere near Essex?
[15:27:03] <Auralis> jmcp: its 140mio not 420
[15:27:05] <jbk> generally considered flyover states :)
[15:27:07] <jbk> umm
[15:27:11] <CSFrost> kind of smered in the middle.
[15:27:16] <jbk> southeast of chicago
[15:27:22] <Doc> yah.. just realised i do know where it is - just down the road from chicag
[15:27:23] <Doc> +o
[15:27:38] <CSFrost> I think it's overthere north of Arkansas and Texas .. what have you..
[15:27:41] <alanbur> http://ianmurdock.com/about
[15:27:42] <jbk> yeah, lots of steel mills there on the lake :)
[15:27:48] <Doc> i was looking over indiana when i took http://www.docbert.org/ChicagoByNight/
[15:27:57] <CSFrost> I've never actually seeen it.. but I've heard it's a crappy place to be.
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[15:28:00] <alanbur> "I now live in Indiana"
[15:28:09] <jbk> well he went to perdue
[15:28:40] <jbk> (which is in west layfayette, indiana)
[15:28:56] <CSFrost> like the chickens?
[15:29:07] <jbk> haha
[15:29:14] <jbk> it's actually a very big engineering school
[15:29:41] * Doc crosses "Indiana" off his "list of places to visit in the US" list
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[15:29:50] <jbk> doc: you won't be missing much :)
[15:29:50] <CSFrost> do they wrap the chickens in the stores?
[15:29:51] <Doc> (ok, so actually it was never on the list, but what the hey)
[15:30:09] <alanbur> What's with the chickens?
[15:30:14] <jbk> a bunch of manure-scented farmland with a few splotches of cement thrown in the mix
[15:30:26] <jbk> alanbur: a big brand of chicken in the US is named perdue
[15:30:33] <CSFrost> I see Perdue chickens in stores...
[15:30:39] <jbk> (though likely unrelated to the university)
[15:30:40] <alanbur> How can you 'brand' a goddam chicken?
[15:30:46] <CSFrost> just curious :-)
[15:31:02] <jbk> well it's the company that processes and packages chicken products
[15:31:09] <CSFrost> it's said to be more humane then chopping their head clean off.
[15:31:12] <PerterB> alanbur: think "Bernard Matthews"
[15:31:21] <Doc> (although i probably shouldnt mention that Seattle is currently top of my list, so i can go visit MS...)
[15:31:30] <alanbur> Ah, thanks for the cross-cultural reference
[15:31:55] <CSFrost> Doc, remember what I said about being more humane then chopping heads..
[15:32:02] <alanbur> But as for thinking about Berhard Matthews - I'd rather not.  "Bird Flu" comes to mind... ;-)
[15:32:11] <PerterB> "bootiful"
[15:32:30] <alanbur> So, Indiana == Norfolk?  Figures....
[15:33:15] <jbk> oh, indiana is also home to orville redenbacher popcorn
[15:33:48] <jbk> good old valparaiso *rolls eyes*
[15:34:41] <CSFrost> heh, I get enough culture-frustration being in New York as it is, I don't think I will wander too much into the middle of the mush :-P
[15:34:58] <alanbur> See, this is *far* more interesting that talking about "that project" ;-)
[15:35:28] <PerterB> alanbur: yebbut now you've put the idea of "Project Norfolk" in my head
[15:35:35] <Cyrille> the one which shall not be named?
[15:35:53] * alanbur LOLs fit to bust
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[15:36:07] <CSFrost> I propose a Project called "Rhode Island"
[15:36:15] <alanbur> "Project Norfolk" - brilliant.  I't got to happen....
[15:36:26] <CSFrost> then after several weeks of people asking where it is, I will let them know I don't know either.
[15:37:19] <PerterB> alanbur: It would probably involve some kind of incest between Linux distributions ending up with something violent, inbred and incoherent
[15:37:30] <Doc> i'm kicking off "Project Neutral Bay", otherwise known as the project to make Solaris more like CP/M
[15:37:57] <alanbur> Stop, you are bringing tears to my eyes.... ;-)
[15:38:03] *** mazon is now known as Mazon
[15:38:57] <CSFrost> Project "Rhode Island" shall be about making Solaris more AIX like, which of course is becoming more Solaris like, with enough circles we can start deminishing the number of confused people (Heads will explode.)
[15:39:31] <spiff-> how do you change keyboard map in solaris?
[15:39:34] <coffman> more aix like? dont make it suck, pls!
[15:39:39] <jbk> haha
[15:39:54] <jbk> i always liked AIX == 'Ain't UNIX'
[15:40:00] <Doc> i'd probably prefer AIX-like over Linux-like
[15:40:13] <Doc> and at least that'd stop all the ppl bitching about smitty being missing
[15:40:22] <quasi> Doc: also known as windows?
[15:40:30] <renihs> whats smitty?
[15:40:33] <coffman> spiff-: eeprom kbd-type=foobar
[15:40:40] <CSFrost> the smitty is missing? Who shall make the shoes for my horse??
[15:40:42] <coffman> spiff-: ur preferd layout
[15:40:51] <CSFrost> I have a high horse you know!
[15:40:56] <spiff-> coffman: how do you list the alternatives?
[15:40:58] <Doc> you have a horse? are you from Indiana too?
[15:41:40] <CSFrost> no, I am from New York (don't laugh, I don't like it here either)
[15:41:49] <jbk> actually
[15:42:03] <jbk> when i was in high school (in indiana)
[15:42:18] <Doc> hmm.. that reminds me - what time does letterman start tonight
[15:42:19] <jbk> there was a commuter plane crash flying from indy->chicago on halloween
[15:42:30] <jbk> which was about 20 miles south of where i lived
[15:42:31] <CSFrost> See, we are learning about Indiana!
[15:43:11] <Cyrille> all you ever wanted to know about Indiana but...
[15:43:29] <jbk> and when chicago tv stations went down there to interview the locals
[15:43:52] <CSFrost> We should go to Pachinko parlors, and ask how we can make Solaris more like Pachinko, so we can get that marketshare too.
[15:44:21] <jbk> and the local bars still had places to hitch up your horses
[15:46:20] <jbk> cause it's still mostly farmers around there
[15:46:55] <CSFrost> sounds like the time I wandered to Ohio and had to dodge horse n' buggies
[15:47:18] <jbk> amish?
[15:47:31] <CSFrost> I didn't ask their names.
[15:47:32] <timf_> I personally would be happy if Solaris was more like Pachinko.
[15:47:40] <CSFrost> But sounds like you know them.
[15:47:55] <CSFrost> timf_ maybe we should take a poll then!
[15:47:55] <timf_>  - been getting the shakes due to not having access to a windows machine to get my Peggle fix :-/
[15:47:56] <jbk> well they are the only ones that still use horse & buggies
[15:48:09] <Doc> Pinocio?  you want it's hard disk to get bigger every time it lies?
[15:49:12] <coffman> spiff-: man kbd
[15:49:18] <timf_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pachinko
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[15:49:49] <coffman> spiff-: kbf -s will give u a list of layouts
[15:50:00] <seanmcg> timf_: qemu..
[15:50:01] <Cyrille> let's have a general "what should solaris be more like" poll on osol-discuss ;-)
[15:50:06] <timf_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pachinko
[15:50:23] <coffman> spiff-: for keyboard layouts under X use kdmconfig
[15:50:35] <timf_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peggle
[15:50:51] <spiff-> coffman: I needed loadkeys
[15:50:51] <timf_> Anyway - sorry for the off topic'ness... brb.
[15:50:54] <seanmcg> timf_ win4solaris
[15:51:05] <timf_> Does it do DirectX ?
[15:51:12] <coffman> spiff-: loadkeys?
[15:51:53] <seanmcg> timf_: shurg.. haven't used windows in.. oh.. I dunno
[15:52:20] <CSFrost> heh, I've been asked "What's with the vest" twice so far today :-P I wonder if they'd laugh if I told them none of my suit-jackets fit anymore :-p
[15:52:46] <hali> is there a way to see if a zfs is in a part of a zone dataset from the zfs/zpool command?
[15:54:16] <jbk> i believe there is a property
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[15:55:55] <hali> hm, i can get zoned "on/off/ .. but not what zone
[15:56:02] <hali> but thats good enough for my scripting here anyway
[15:56:02] <hali> thanks
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[16:08:04] <coffman> gar, is there something like a changelog for sxce?
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[16:13:26] <sickness> coffman: yeah, it's near the download section of ON
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[16:15:44] <Vanuatoo> If I install sxce 65 on core 2 duo E6600 CPU will it load 32 bit kernel or 64bit?
[16:18:38] <CSFrost> 64
[16:19:03] <Vanuatoo> CSFrost, thank you
[16:20:13] <pgomez> is there a place to check on the what's new in the build XX.. or for instance to SXDE b64 vs SXDE b55
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[16:20:40] <CSFrost> like the changelog coffman just asked about?
[16:20:46] <CSFrost> I'd start there. :-)
[16:21:16] <pgomez> :-) wasn't reading.. will do thnks
[16:21:51] <PerterB> or here http://dlc.sun.com/osol/on/downloads/b65/
[16:22:04] <PerterB> (there's an annotated changelog there)
[16:22:09] <sbahra> Solaris is dying.
[16:22:33] <sbahra> Just kidding...
[16:22:38] <sbahra> :-(
[16:22:38] <PerterB> so's the Sun
[16:22:51] <sbahra> PerterB, SUN? or the sun?
[16:22:58] <PerterB> *the* Sun
[16:23:06] <sbahra> Ah, SUN.
[16:23:13] <sbahra> Well, I was only kidding...no reason to flamebait. :-(
[16:23:21] <CSFrost> but, I'll be gone long before this plutonium based missile I have here is...
[16:23:24] <jamesd> its about time that over long sci-fi movie kicked the bucket.
[16:23:29] <coffman> PerterB: ty
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[16:27:15] <coffman> i recently hit a problem while doing zfs send|zfs recv, the fs had error and every time i tryed to import it the system dumped and did a shutdown
[16:27:25] <coffman> is that a feature or bug? :)
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[16:33:27] <CSFrost> http://blogs.sun.com/kevin/entry/clinton_s_jobs_of_tommorrow heh
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[16:37:34] <jbk> uugh these people
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[16:38:38] <jbk> we make a change on two running copies of a program (both do the same thing) -- one works better, one works worse (using T2 lib on S8 w/ java), to me that says, the library isn't the problem
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[16:52:35] <tek-ops> hi all
[16:54:47] <jbk> hello
[16:55:39] *** Mazon is now known as mazon
[16:55:49] <tek-ops> so it's friday, yet again :)
[16:56:18] <g4lt-U60> it happens that way, almost like it's weekly or something
[16:56:48] <tek-ops> bah, that's crazy talk
[16:57:41] <tek-ops> this has been the oddest, most ef'd up week I've had in years
[16:57:42] <tek-ops> hahaha
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[16:58:07] <tek-ops> no in a good way, nor necessarily bad either
[16:58:12] <Doc> tek-ops: No, I know, that's my brother, Crazy Talk.  We're all a little worried about him.
[16:58:15] <tek-ops> but i'm glad it's friday
[16:58:26] <Doc> actually it's saturday!
[16:58:31] <tek-ops> WHAT?!
[16:58:38] <tek-ops> hah
[16:58:41] <Doc> Saturday June  2 00:58:35 EST 2007
[16:58:45] <tek-ops> I just double checked
[16:58:49] <tek-ops> for some of us maybe :-P
[16:59:52] <alanbur> If it's Saturday I'm late for an appointment, shit...
[16:59:59] <sioraiocht> the sun studio compiler lets you define tokens at the command line using -D, right?
[17:00:06] <alanbur> yes
[17:00:10] <sioraiocht> kk thanks
[17:01:22] <tek-ops> hah, for my life I can't find a single document from Sun that discusses the interbehaviors of ZFS quotas and snapshots
[17:01:42] <Doc> what is there to discuss?
[17:01:59] <tek-ops> well for one, if you do home directory quotas, and you take a snapshot....
[17:02:01] <jamesd> tek-ops, they ran out of space in there quota so they didn't include one ;-)
[17:02:06] <tek-ops> you're eating up that users quota spac
[17:02:21] <tek-ops> hahahaha
[17:02:43] <tek-ops> thank you jamesd, you just made my morning enjoyable
[17:02:44] <jamesd> tek-ops, no,   it simply locks the space they are currently using it doesn't require anymore space... just makes using less harder.
[17:03:30] <tek-ops> so the hidden .zfs isn't counted in the quota?
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[17:03:48] <jamesd> tek-ops, nope.. it doesn't actually exist.
[17:04:12] * tek-ops is puzzled
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[17:04:43] <tek-ops> it makes sense
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[17:04:50] <sstallion> tek-ops: all a snapshot does is maintain files that a user currently has
[17:04:51] <tek-ops> now if I can just find a document to prove it up the line
[17:04:56] <jamesd> user A ... has a  1GB quota,   creates  900MB of files,   and takes  1000 snapshots,  he is still just using his  900MB of quota....
[17:05:01] <sstallion> which means later on down the road they may unlink the file, but it still exists as used space
[17:05:19] <sstallion> tek-ops: i believe its in the snaphots document - i remember reading it
[17:05:28] <tek-ops> ok
[17:05:45] <jamesd> user A  deletes his  900MB of files,  but he is still using 900
[17:05:51] <sstallion> or rather the snapshots chapter in the admin doc
[17:05:54] <jamesd> MB of quota, because the snapshots still exist.
[17:06:01] <tek-ops> so this doesn't provide a backup incase the user accidentally deletes a file
[17:06:02] <sstallion> *nods*
[17:06:05] <tek-ops> ?
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[17:06:17] <sstallion> tek-ops: have you ever used something like cvs or sccs?
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[17:06:22] <sstallion> think of it like revision control
[17:06:33] <tek-ops> yea I have
[17:06:35] <sstallion> okay
[17:06:35] <jamesd> tek-ops, it does...  he can simply  rollback a snapshot or get a copy from  .zfs/snapshots/snapname
[17:06:36] <tek-ops> there are full copies
[17:06:44] <sstallion> so a snapshot is like checking in a file revision
[17:06:53] <tek-ops> ok that's fine
[17:07:14] <tek-ops> so in terms of the massive ZFS pool, it is taking up space, just not in terms of the quota
[17:07:17] <tek-ops> ?
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[17:07:47] <sstallion> tek-ops: think of it like this. your snapshot hangs on to the space used for those files indefinitely
[17:08:10] <sstallion> so if you delete a file, its space is still being used because the snapshot is hanging on to it
[17:08:21] <tek-ops> right
[17:08:25] <jamesd> tek-ops, snapshots lock the file in place, it doesn't use more space, it just doesn't allow you to remove the file from the filesystem without removing the snapshots first,  the user can delete the file, and he wont see it, but the snapshot and data still exists.
[17:08:28] <sstallion> now, what im not sure of is if zfs uses whole copies of changes or delta's
[17:08:46] <jamesd> sstallion, it just uses blocks for deltas.
[17:08:47] <sstallion> that impacts the amount of space a modification has
[17:08:53] <sstallion> jamesd: gotcha
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[17:09:24] <tek-ops> and then the users modifications go on to use new inodes?
[17:09:33] <sstallion> tek-ops: so really, additional snapshots can potentially take far less space since deltas are used
[17:10:07] <sstallion> block level deltas would be very efficient for text data. binary data its a crapshoot
[17:10:37] <tek-ops> either way, the retained blocks fall under space usage of the zpool or the zfs?
[17:10:52] <sstallion> zfs
[17:10:53] <jamesd> tek-ops,  user A 1GB of space/quota,  creates 900MB of files,  snapshot,  deletes the 900MB of files, the user still just has 100MB of free space/quota, because the snapshot is holding the 900MB of data on the disk....
[17:11:05] <tek-ops> sstallion: which means it uses quota space
[17:11:13] <sstallion> tek-ops: of course
[17:11:18] <sstallion> users dont get free space ;)
[17:11:24] <tek-ops> hahaha
[17:11:33] <tek-ops> well that just means we'll need to send it off elsewhere
[17:11:34] <tek-ops> that's fine
[17:11:39] <tek-ops> I just need to document this
[17:11:42] <sstallion> that obviates the use of user quotas :)
[17:11:59] <tek-ops> obviates?
[17:12:02] <sstallion> i still use tape backup for my machines at home
[17:12:11] <sstallion> tek-ops: makes unneccessary
[17:12:20] <tek-ops> ahhh
[17:12:25] <tek-ops> not necessarily true
[17:12:47] <tek-ops> we offer shell account services, mail, web hosting, etc
[17:12:52] <jamesd> it will get better when they add an owner of the zfs filesystem so a normal user can delete and take there own snapshots,  now it requires ROOT or  previledges to take or delete snapshots... thankfully its coming soon.
[17:12:54] <sstallion> tek-ops: sure it is. if i need extra space for a temporary operation, i make a snapshot, delete the contents of my fs, and suck up another 900M of space
[17:13:05] <sstallion> system is still using 1.8G in that case
[17:13:20] <sstallion> jamesd: yeah im really looking forward to that
[17:13:46] <sstallion> thats one hell of a soft limit ;)
[17:13:52] <tek-ops> we have users that share different storage areas, that the quota lies on the user
[17:14:06] <sstallion> tek-ops: then those shared areas should have different quotas on them
[17:14:15] <sstallion> a quota is not based on a user (at least not with zfs)
[17:14:17] <sstallion> its based on the actual fs
[17:14:24] <tek-ops> right, but they dont impact the user's home directory quota
[17:14:36] <sstallion> so for shared areas, i would create a separate quota to be used by the group
[17:14:43] <tek-ops> right, sstallion I'm just explaining how that model isnt better for all scenarios
[17:15:08] <sstallion> tek-ops: have an example?
[17:15:16] <tek-ops> I just gave one
[17:15:26] <tek-ops> common areas are necessarily defined "groups"
[17:15:48] <tek-ops> not to mention when large downloads occur they first go to /tmp
[17:15:58] <tek-ops> which should also be using the users quota space
[17:16:01] <tek-ops> in our model
[17:16:05] <sstallion> well
[17:16:15] <sstallion> then you need to look at user limits or resource control
[17:16:19] <sstallion> quotas are filesystem based
[17:16:55] <tek-ops> sstallion: you do realize that the zfs quota model is different than the previously accepted (for MANY years) user quota model
[17:17:07] <tek-ops> I just want to make sure we're not debating that right now
[17:17:51] <sstallion> what are you comparing this to?
[17:18:15] <tek-ops> ufs, ext2, ext3, hfs, etc....
[17:18:36] <tek-ops> http://www.hmug.org/man/1/quota.php
[17:18:59] <sstallion> okay
[17:19:07] <sstallion> so, this is a little different
[17:19:19] <sickness> omfg, links are still for b64a :(((
[17:19:26] <sstallion> quota on bsd is something that is kernel based... solaris does this similarly with resource control
[17:19:32] <sstallion> same thing, different name
[17:19:38] <tek-ops> it's actually a huge change to the quota system currently being used in most quota scenerios
[17:19:43] <sstallion> quotas are built into zfs - its fs based
[17:19:50] <tek-ops> and will be one of the biggest hinderances for massive zfs adoption
[17:19:58] <sstallion> tek-ops: you are confusing terms here
[17:20:00] <sickness> pleaze update them!!!
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[17:20:21] <tek-ops> sstallion: what am I confusing exactly?
[17:20:32] <sstallion> i just told you
[17:20:44] <sstallion> the BSD quota you just put up there is a system wide, kernel based quota mechanism
[17:20:45] <tek-ops> I've discussed this exact "transition" with quite a few admins who agree they will also have issues
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[17:21:03] <sstallion> a zfs quota is simply a quota for the *filesystem*
[17:21:05] <tek-ops> sstallion: I understand the difference
[17:21:13] <sstallion> what you are talking about is resource control
[17:21:24] <tek-ops> I'm explaining the problem/riddle brought forth by this
[17:21:26] <sstallion> different names, same thing
[17:21:35] <tek-ops> as zfs apparently won't play well with user quotas
[17:21:36] <sstallion> i understand but i think you are misunderstanding the use of zfs quotas
[17:21:46] <tek-ops> no, I completely understand it
[17:21:52] <tek-ops> I'm using them now
[17:21:55] <sstallion> then why are we having this conversation?
[17:22:00] <tek-ops> however only in a very small environment
[17:22:28] <tek-ops> because zfs doesn't play well with user quotas
[17:22:37] <tek-ops> and the file system quota is apparently the only solution
[17:22:43] <tek-ops> which creates problems
[17:23:19] <sstallion> ive not played with user quotas on zfs (no need in my environment) - what are you seeing?
[17:23:50] <tek-ops> give me one second
[17:24:35] <tek-ops> ok sorry about that
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[17:24:58] <tsoome> there is no need for user quotas
[17:24:58] <tek-ops> i'm seeing emails from my boss that say Sun doesn't support the use of user quotas in conjunction with zfs
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[17:25:10] <tsoome> you should thing out of box
[17:25:20] <tsoome> think*
[17:25:29] <jamesd> it supports  per filesystem quotas, so each user gets there own filesystem
[17:25:32] <fholmes_laptop> What is the equivalent of netstat -tulpn command?
[17:25:37] <tsoome> you will make fs per user and set quota
[17:25:43] <tek-ops> tsoome: that's easier said than done when trying to justify an all netbsd shop to migrate to solaris
[17:25:48] <tek-ops> but hey, maybe i am crazy
[17:26:15] <sstallion> im going out on a limb here, but if you are in an all netbsd shop, then you probably have bigger issues
[17:26:18] <tsoome> same will apply for group quota
[17:26:19] <tek-ops> jamesd: which works fine except in some particular cases in which there are common areas
[17:26:21] <sstallion> like the amount of hardware thats being wasted
[17:26:23] <jamesd> tek-ops, the filesystems are so light you can create 100's or 1000's of them without a problem.. and each only takes a couple seconds to create.
[17:26:28] * quasi is getting very tempted to do throw something very heavy at Brian Gupta - crossposting a discussion email to 17 lists should be enough to have his email banned for a few months
[17:26:37] <sstallion> quasi++
[17:26:40] <tek-ops> jamesd: so make a /tmp directory for each user?
[17:26:55] <tek-ops> and that's just for instance
[17:27:00] <jamesd> tek-ops, no... /tmp is  swapfs  not zfs anyway.
[17:27:00] <oxygene> jamesd: I have a file server with a shared volume with quotas (user a might take 500mb there, user b 3gig), with people writing everywhere in that filesystem, and they need it that way. cheap filesystems won't help there
[17:27:03] <sstallion> tek-ops: is it really that neccessary to control users that tightly?
[17:27:04] <tsoome> damn /tmp is tmpfs anyhow and without a quota
[17:27:23] <tek-ops> sstallion: we sell user space
[17:27:33] <tek-ops> we charge for storage usage
[17:27:34] <tek-ops> so yes
[17:27:38] <sstallion> ah
[17:27:39] <tek-ops> in this case
[17:28:26] <jamesd> bbl.. need to go and work out
[17:28:30] <tek-ops> though in all honesty, I'm not the only admin that is having this issue
[17:28:37] <tek-ops> enjoy jamesd
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[17:28:39] <sstallion> one sec tek-ops, im looking up some documentation
[17:28:45] <tek-ops> please do
[17:28:47] <tek-ops> i'll go smoke
[17:29:00] <tek-ops> if you can provide ANY insight, i will be GREATLY appreciative
[17:29:07] <tek-ops> be right back
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[17:34:48] <sstallion> looks like its not planned for zfs period: http://tinyurl.com/38d2hn
[17:35:01] <sstallion> have you considered restricting them to their own filesystem?
[17:35:13] <sstallion> or even using zones?
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[17:47:57] <CSFrost> nobody said "welcome back stevel" yet? :-P
[17:48:17] <tek-ops> welcome back stevel
[17:48:26] <alanbur> Him no here, I think...
[17:48:34] <tek-ops> yea sstallion I know, it's not planned, we're going to have to develop a new solution
[17:48:39] <tek-ops> but that's just my gripe
[17:48:58] * CSFrost slaps stevel, you here? :-p
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[17:49:09] <tek-ops> anyways
[17:49:31] <tek-ops> how do you deal with management that resorts to hollering instead of discussing a solution to a problem?
[17:49:40] * tek-ops attempts a new subject
[17:49:46] <sickness> oh there's another slightly annoying thing with solaris
[17:49:51] <CSFrost> a noose?
[17:50:12] <sickness> when you scp something on the home directory of some user on another machine, you can't use the tilde abbreviation
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[17:50:45] <tek-ops> sickness: use rsync :-P
[17:51:05] <tek-ops> I haven't touched scp since the day I was introduced to rsync
[17:51:10] <sickness> tek-ops: ok, that works, but still, It would be nice not to have to type /home/username after the @ everytime...
[17:51:20] <tek-ops> true true
[17:51:27] <tek-ops> hmm, build a new one?
[17:51:30] <sickness> ok, I heavily use rsync too, for a lot of tasks, but still, scp is sometime used...
[17:51:37] <tek-ops> CSFrost: not when he's the owner ;)
[17:52:01] <sickness> build a new what? I think that the tilde should work out of the box as in every other unix or unix like...
[17:52:11] <sickness> (correct me if I'm wrong =)
[17:52:29] <tek-ops> actually, I think you're right that this is a solaris thing on not the ssh daemon..... my bad
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[17:53:11] <sickness> iirc I tried with the opensshd port too and it didn't work, so it should not be sun's ssh daemon...
[17:54:38] <tek-ops> I can only offer my condolences
[17:54:40] <tek-ops> sorry
[17:54:59] * tek-ops is just another SA trying to make it in this crazy world
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[17:55:23] <sickness> well no prob, I will live without this feature :)
[17:55:56] <sickness> but if some developer here could hear... it would be nice to have that thing...
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[17:57:51] <oxygene> sickness: scp foo bar@baz:quux sends foo into ~bar/quux/ here
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[17:59:14] <alanbur> Oops...
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[17:59:29] <Tpenta> hey there alan
[17:59:45] <alanbur> Hi :-)
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[18:00:26] <CIA-17> dougm: 6563921 Fix for 6549790 breaks "share -o anon=0"
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[18:01:05] <sickness> oxygene: uhm, so it is by default and you don't have to put tilda? I'll try tnx!
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[18:04:22] <tek-ops> hmmm can I have userquotas with NFS?
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[18:05:13] <tek-ops> also, can I just share the large zpool with NFS and still utlize the zfs's on the pool?
[18:05:17] <tek-ops> remotely that is
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[18:06:22] <seanmcg> tek-ops; yes to the second question..  is there something that made you think otherwise ?-)
[18:07:06] <tek-ops> not to think otherwise, I just havent had much time with ZFS over NFS yet
[18:07:45] <seanmcg> I've a box here with a bunch of zfs shared out, no problems with it..
[18:08:22] <tek-ops> I was hoping to just share the overall pool, as to not need to specifically share all new zfs's created
[18:08:39] <seanmcg> and different nfs sharing per zfs as well.  All done via zfs set sharenfs=... instead of editing /etc/dfs/dfstab.  Actually my dfstab is empty :)
[18:09:01] <tek-ops> cool cool
[18:09:16] <tek-ops> that's an option
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[18:09:26] <tek-ops> I was  hoping just the share the heirarchy as a whole
[18:09:39] <seanmcg> ahh, watch out then, newly created zfs from a zpool may inherit the share...
[18:09:43] <tek-ops> I guess that could be done with inheritance
[18:09:53] <tek-ops> that's my goal
[18:10:04] <tek-ops> basically think of sharing /export
[18:10:16] <tek-ops> you want /export/home and all the home directories inside shared
[18:10:24] <tek-ops> otherwise they would be limited to /home instead
[18:10:34] <tek-ops> although automounter makes that challenging
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[18:15:32] <tek-ops> solaris internals being down is annoying
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[18:20:35] <whaq> <sartan> I have removed the air cover on the cisco 6513 chassis.  the rush of hot air tingles against my naked transistors.  I slowly slide my upgrade card into the open slot, gasping as I feel the flow of air sharply cut off, jolting as the spark of electricity initiates the rom cycle....
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[18:51:16] <gdamore> hi *
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[19:04:52] <FrostCS> Hi gdamore.
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[19:13:57] <greatbighead> mmm, has anyone seen this error while doing ls -la: "Value too large for defined data type"
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[19:16:31] <Stric> greatbighead: 32bit ls without 64bit file structures
[19:16:42] <Stric> or >64bit filesize
[19:17:24] <greatbighead> file /usr/bin/ls
[19:17:25] <greatbighead> /usr/bin/ls:    ELF 32-bit LSB executable
[19:17:40] <greatbighead> it's sitting on the brand new zfs filesystem
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[19:19:14] <greatbighead> mmm, when reading it from the linux client it shows that it's outside of unix epoch time
[19:19:22] <greatbighead> so it seems setting "set nfs:nfs_allow_preepoch_time = 1" will fix it over nfs
[19:19:32] <greatbighead> but what about on the local system?
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[19:21:05] <Stric> hm.. I think zfs has something too.. but being outside epoch isn't really supported..
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[19:32:37] <trochej> Uhm
[19:32:55] <trochej> Where do I get this sxce 65?
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[19:33:59] <stevel> http://opensolaris.org/sxce_dvd
[19:34:08] <Tpenta> hey steve
[19:34:15] <stevel> hey alan :)
[19:34:18] <alanc> he's back!
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[19:34:43] <stevel> alanc: jetlagged and all, but yeah i'm back :)
[19:34:50] <gdamore> woohoo... sxce 65.  crap, now i have to upgrade a bunch of systems... :-)
[19:34:53] <trochej>   	 The product you requested is not available at this time.
[19:34:54] <trochej>   	warning:  	Sol-Express_b243-DVD-x86-SP-G-B
[19:34:59] <trochej> HMmmm
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[19:35:03] <stevel> hrm. that's not right
[19:35:05] <trochej> stevel: Doesn't work?
[19:35:06] <stevel> obviously
[19:35:07] <alanc> b243?
[19:35:08] <stevel> hang on 1 sec
[19:35:17] <gdamore> i just got that warning too.
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[19:35:53] <stevel> okay should be fixed now
[19:35:55] <trochej> dosiu: We broke the damn thing :/
[19:35:58] <dosiu> :D
[19:36:03] <Fish> hello
[19:36:16] <trochej> stevel: Thankx
[19:36:17] <gdamore> *much* better.
[19:36:46] <alanc> now we'll have to find new excuses for why stuff is late/broken other than "no one knows how to do it while stevel is out"
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[19:38:09] <gdamore> stevel: back in town now?  not working from some remote location on your honeymoon, I hope!
[19:38:10] <tek-ops> hello again
[19:38:20] <stevel> gdamore: nope, i'm back in the office now
[19:38:47] <gdamore> i figure we'll probably effectively lose stevel for another day or two once he opens his mail box. :-)
[19:39:04] <tek-ops> ok, I asked every other question than this, but here's a new approach
[19:39:05] <stevel> gdamore: it's open :)
[19:39:12] <alanc> save yourself now - just delete any mail containing the word "Indiana"
[19:39:41] <gdamore> hmm... "Download failed.  Maximum retries exceeded.  See Help..."  (downloading sxce 65 with the Sun Download Manager.)
[19:39:45] <alanc> and any from anyone named Alan (except Tpenta - he's the only semi-sane one of the bunch)
[19:40:07] <tek-ops> if a zpool (and subsequent zfs's) are shared over NFS, and mounted by a netbsd machine that supports user quotas, will their files on the nfs mounted zfs be summed up with the bsd user quota?
[19:40:10] <trochej> stevel: And just delete the thread with Sun to make Solaris more Linux like
[19:40:38] <trochej> stevel: It will save you about 3/4 of time
[19:41:43] <gdamore> no joy with that download. :-(
[19:41:57] <stevel> yeah, i missed a lot re: Indiana while i was out
[19:42:08] <gdamore> tek-ops: I don't think so.
[19:42:24] <gdamore> because the underlying zfs doesn't have user-quotas, it can provide any information about them to BSD.
[19:43:00] <tek-ops> ahhh, so through NFS, the NFS server actually does the file size sumation and passes that on
[19:43:01] <gdamore> anyone else having trouble with that download?
[19:43:06] <tek-ops> it's not the host that mounts it that does?
[19:43:34] <gdamore> tek-ops: i don't think so.  otherwise it would have to iterate across the entire filesystem to get quota information, which would _really_ suck.
[19:44:05] <tek-ops> I just don't remember seeing that as part of the NFS spec
[19:44:09] <gdamore> IIRC, there is a seperate quota protocol (rquota?) for this sort of thing.
[19:44:15] <tek-ops> though of course I trust your judgement over my faulty memory
[19:44:38] <gdamore> check out rquotad(1M)
[19:44:44] <tek-ops> doing so now :)
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[19:48:10] <Stric> zfs doesn't use regular "quota", but sets filesystem sizes instead..
[19:48:21] <Stric> so instead of running 'quota', you run 'df ~/'
[19:49:27] <Stric> and regular bsd quotas is managed by the server, not the client..
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[19:53:13] <gdamore> (the client can inquire about qutoas on the server, mostly for display with the "quota" command.  enforcement is done on the server.)
[19:54:05] <gdamore> i suspect one of these days, someone is going to decide that quotas on zfs are too useful to ignore, and someone will go ahead and implement them.  personally, i _hate_ using quotas.  but I don't run any big public servers either.
[19:55:05] <gdamore> stevel: any idea why my downloads are failing?
[19:57:23] <mikefut> Hello
[19:57:25] * gdamore things stevel is caught up in e-mail right now. :-)
[19:57:57] <mikefut> Trying to buld postfix from pkgsrc, it required db4 but when I build it I get error:
[19:58:04] <mikefut> => Automatic manual page handling
[19:58:11] <mikefut>  /bin/sh: bad substitution
[19:58:22] <mikefut> what's wrong here?
[19:58:41] <stevel> gdamore: sorry, was caught up in email - yeah :)  i don't know why the downloads are failing... unfortunately we don't have any access to the SDLC download servers
[19:58:52] <greatbighead> how do i check if i run a 32 or 64 bit kernel?
[19:59:27] <brendang> isainfo -b
[19:59:44] <gdamore> i was also hoping someone could tell me whether the problem reproduces for everyone, or is just some braindamage on my client end.
[19:59:49] <greatbighead> cool, thanx
[20:00:09] <stevel> gdamore: are you downloading direct, or using the download manager?
[20:00:16] <gdamore> download manager.
[20:02:46] <stevel> hrm, i'm able to download it direct - but i've never used the download manager
[20:03:06] <FrostCS> I try not to use the download manager.
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[20:03:47] <trochej> I suck it direct with good results so far
[20:03:48] <gdamore> the download manager usually works pretty well, the retry facility is nice, etc.  and it lives longer than my browser does sometimes. :-)
[20:03:55] <greatbighead> are there any 64bit versions of ls already floating around, or compiling is the only way?
[20:03:57] <trochej> wget
[20:04:12] <gdamore> why would you want a 64-bit of ls?
[20:04:19] <stevel> greatbighead: /usr/bin/amd64/ls
[20:04:23] <stevel> [stevel@donuthole:~] 502$ file /usr/bin/amd64/ls
[20:04:23] <stevel> /usr/bin/amd64/ls:      ELF 64-bit LSB executable AMD64 Version 1 [SSE2 SSE FXSR CMOV FPU], dynamically linked, not stripped, no debugging information available
[20:04:32] <trochej> gdamore: wget -O 'url'
[20:05:05] <gdamore> that just makes no sense to me.  what value does a 64-bit ls bring?
[20:05:06] <axisys> battey shows fault in this http://rafb.net/p/M3QabH95.html t300
[20:05:18] <axisys> any way to to keep it going until replce
[20:05:27] <axisys> all volumes are unaccessible from OS
[20:05:41] <trochej> gdamore: Power of marketing, for one?
[20:05:44] <trochej> :)
[20:06:02] <FrostCS> Where can I get me a 128bit ls for zfs? :-)
[20:06:16] <gdamore> axisys: don't unplug it? :-)
[20:06:21] <dosiu> :D
[20:06:27] <trochej> FrostCS: ROTFL
[20:06:40] <gdamore> heh.
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[20:07:00] <trochej> FrostCS: But really, you see, when on meeting with client, you can say: hey, look, we even have a 64bit ls in our system
[20:07:05] <trochej> Our system is totally 64bit
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[20:07:14] <trochej> Even our 64bits are 64bit
[20:07:29] <greatbighead> 32bit ls: $ ls -l /mail/exim4-0/input/w/hdr.962
[20:07:42] <greatbighead> Value too large for defined data type
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[20:07:47] <FrostCS> But, then what do they do when you tell them you have a 128 bit file system? :-p
[20:07:48] <axisys> this is what I was looking for http://www.sunmanagers.org/pipermail/summaries/2005-January/006039.html
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[20:07:55] <greatbighead> 64bit ls: -rwxr-xr-x   1 102      102            0 Feb 22  2073 /mail/exim4-0/input/w/hdr.962
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[20:08:12] <alanc> gdamore: you need 64-bit ls for filesystems that report dates outside the signed 32-bit time_t range
[20:08:35] <Eol> ? with ZFS ... have two zpool's with the same name but different NID ... zpool destroy only does my name as far as I can tell and not NID ... how do I destroy this? (so it will quit showing up in zfs import)
[20:08:39] <FrostCS> incase you happy to create a file in 2073, and go back in time and want to use it.
[20:09:02] <greatbighead> those files that are reported outside of 32bt... is that the client who screws it up or the > nfs:nfs_allow_preepoch_time
[20:09:06] <gdamore> alanc: okay, i guess i can imagine that... the dates.  although you could achieve that with a longlong_t .... and a 32-bit binary.
[20:09:26] <alanc> woo!   CR 6404762 Updated P2 xserver/l10n-europe Xorg using 'kbd' driver exits when Ctrl-Backspace is pressed with NumLock on - Integrated in Build    snv_66
[20:09:38] <oninoshiko> anyone know how to get setup_install_server to work, it seems to just cause my machine to reboot
[20:09:44] <alanc> gdamore: only if you changed the 32-bit libc to have yet another stat variant with 6
[20:09:55] <alanc> 4-bit/long_long_t for the time fields
[20:10:03] <gdamore> stat64() :-)
[20:10:31] <trochej> alanc: Eh, what does it mean (about that kbd)?
[20:10:44] <trochej> Oh
[20:10:45] <gdamore> actually, one could imagine a compile time define for 64-bit time_t.
[20:10:46] <trochej> Ok
[20:10:51] <trochej> I'm just tired
[20:10:54] <alanc> trochej: that Ctrl-NumLock-Backspace won't kill Xorg any more
[20:10:55] <gdamore> sort of like they did for 64-bit file offsets.
[20:11:12] <trochej> alanc: Thnx
[20:11:24] <alanc> stat64() is defined to use 32-bit time_t's - changing to 64-bit would break binary compatibility
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[20:11:49] <alanc> need a new stat64x or something
[20:13:07] <gdamore> heh.  i thought i was inventing a new api... didn't realize stat64 already existed.
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[20:13:30] <alanc> stat64() is the large-file version - for 32-bit apps who want to stat files > 2gb
[20:13:43] <FrostCS> This is the longest I've ever seen firefox take to crash...
[20:14:01] <greatbighead> what about a 64-bit version of find?
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[20:21:25] <trochej> A question
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[20:21:43] <trochej> If I migrate root to a role, will upgrade between builds (from a DVD) work properly?
[20:22:10] <leal> Hello there..
[20:23:02] <leal> There is a way to add support to my keyboard (brazilian abnt2) to Xsun? using Xorg keymaps or something like that...
[20:23:21] <estibi> trochej: you can try it with LU
[20:23:49] <trochej> leal: Menu->Preferences->Input Methods
[20:23:52] <trochej> May work
[20:24:03] <trochej> estibi: And if I don't have a free partition?
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[20:24:21] <leal> Trochej? thanks, i will look..
[20:24:39] <estibi> trochej: then buy another disk :D
[20:24:55] <trochej> estibi: Not enugh space in my laptop
[20:25:03] <dosiu> trochej: via USB. :D
[20:25:12] <trochej> dosiu: Yeah, like ketinsu, yes?
[20:25:17] <trochej> ketinszu
[20:25:20] <trochej> :)
[20:25:23] <dosiu> Yeah. ;)
[20:25:28] <trochej> I wonder, is he still sitting there?
[20:25:31] <trochej> :)
[20:25:34] <dosiu> ROTFL
[20:25:35] <tek-ops> so was there a performance boost with NFS+ZFS in Sol10 U3?
[20:25:47] * tek-ops spotted a roflcopter
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[20:26:13] <CSFrost> not 'doshio ka na' or anything :-P
[20:26:25] <trochej> There was a guy, today, at unix days conference, who was attemptimg to install Solaris over USB at external disk
[20:26:29] <trochej> It was sloooow
[20:26:42] <gdamore> USB 1.1?
[20:26:49] <tek-ops> hahaha, i was wondering that too
[20:26:55] <CSFrost> usb .55
[20:27:01] <trochej> Probably, it was some old Think Pad, might not have anything faster :)
[20:27:14] <estibi> :D
[20:27:16] <gdamore> USB 1.1 is only ~11 Mbps IIRC.
[20:27:23] <tek-ops> i must say booting belenix on my macbook (which has to be done by usb storage) is painful
[20:27:29] <tek-ops> but once loaded, it's pleasent
[20:28:02] <leal> trochej: there is just "keyboard accessibility"... no "Input Methods"
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[20:28:26] <trochej> Hm
[20:28:33] <trochej> leal: Don't know then, sorry
[20:29:15] <leal> trochej: But with that option i can make it works in Xsun?
[20:29:30] <leal> trochej: i mean "IM"
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[20:29:51] <trochej> leal: I don't know, really, I suspected it might work. I use only Xorg
[20:29:58] <gdamore> Sun USB keyboads provide the USB country code in the HID descriptor, so Solaris should do the right thing with international Sun keyboards.  a lot of clone keyboards don't bother to provide the country code in the HID descriptor, though.
[20:30:33] * gdamore went through this mess in designing support for international keyboards in Sun Ray firmware.
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[20:31:03] <leal> Somebody here from SUN Xorg team??
[20:31:28] <CSFrost> they are hiding.
[20:31:31] <gdamore> alanc if he's around.
[20:32:08] <leal> gdamore: thanks.
[20:32:34] * gdamore hides from alanc. :-)
[20:32:50] <leal> gdamore: But he is not answering...
[20:32:59] <CSFrost> he's under his desk taking a nap
[20:33:10] <gdamore> probably at lunch.  the X folks usually lunch early.
[20:33:21] <trochej> and long
[20:33:37] <timf_> gdamore, I've a feeling the newer USB keyboards (Type 7) don't do that anymore...
[20:33:57] <gdamore> timf_: i've never seen a type 7, so I don't know.  it would be a real shame if they didn't.
[20:34:07] <timf_>  (bring back the older type 5 ones with the dip switches you could hack )
[20:34:26] <leal> I will try to talk with him later... thanks.
[20:34:54] <gdamore> the fact that the country codes were properly listed in the HID descriptor was one of the things that I praised most about Sun Type 6 keyboards.
[20:35:35] <gdamore> because then I could plug in a type 6 US keyboard, and a type 6 Spanish keyboard, and the keys all worked properly (on Sun Ray), no cross confusion.
[20:35:56] <gdamore> not that I care about non-US keyboards that much, but when I had to support the software....
[20:36:26] <trochej> That sounds like a cool featuer
[20:36:29] <trochej> feature
[20:37:14] <timf_> leal XSun stores it's keytable files in /usr/openwin/share/etc/keytables
[20:37:27] <timf_> You might be able to uncompress one of those and see how they work
[20:37:41] <timf_>  - last looked at this stuff years ago, so I'm a bit rusty
[20:38:02] <timf_> the keytable.map file in that directory is helpful too
[20:38:41] <leal> timf_: Ok, i will look it.\
[20:39:13] <leal> timf_: the default (US) is US101A_x86.kt?
[20:39:25] <tek-ops> so no known performance fixes to COMMIT for NFS in solaris 10 U3?
[20:39:31] <timf_> Depends on what you've set in kdmconfig
[20:39:39] <leal> (US)
[20:39:55] <timf_> I guess
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[21:00:30] <CIA-17> krishna: 6548905 ncp crypto registration during attach deadlocks in devfs during boot
[21:01:44] <oninoshiko> it hate me... solaris-10 hates me
[21:01:55] <trochej> oninoshiko: Why?
[21:02:27] <leal> oninoshiko: very good. :)
[21:02:48] <oninoshiko> im trying the scrip to serup a install server, and that scrip reboots my VM session
[21:04:05] <tek-ops> which SVN corresponds to Sol10 U3?
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[21:12:41] * tek-ops wonders how many people have him on /ignore
[21:14:12] <trochej> tek-ops: Me, obviously :)
[21:14:14] <cmihai>  /ignore tek-ops
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[21:14:40] <cmihai> tek-ops: no SVN actually... :-)
[21:14:47] <CSFrost> who are you guys talking to?
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[21:15:06] <cmihai> tek-ops: it's Solaris 10 code freeze -> patches && updates + backports and stuff like ZFS additions and so on
[21:15:10] <trochej> CSFrost: Nobody, jut ignore the thread
[21:15:40] <CSFrost> trochej, figured as much, since I see no text from tek-ops.
[21:16:12] <cmihai> :-)
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[21:30:11] <bthornton> Is there a place where I can download particular packages for OpenSolaris?
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[21:30:49] <cmihai> huh?
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[21:31:43] <bthornton> Say I need packages SUNWgfb and SUNWgfbr; is there a place where I can download those particular packages without downloading an entire media set?
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[21:53:28] <alanc> gdamore: the Type 7 keyboards still self identify - removing it has been proposed for future models, but Sun Ray keeps telling them how badly that will break Sun Ray
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[21:54:23] <alanc> and yes, I was lunching
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[21:59:49] <cmihai> bthornton: no.
[22:00:40] <CIA-17> mb91622: 6398469 mmioctl_page_fmri_retire/mm_get_mem_fmri error value mismatch
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[22:02:14] *** ChanServ sets mode: +o stevel
[22:03:06] <bthornton> okay different question... :)
[22:03:51] <bthornton> I'm running an Ultra 80 and, for whatever reason, the mouse report rate seems to be VERY low--the cursor seems to update at like 5fps or something.  Is there any way to change the default?
[22:04:07] <bthornton> we're talking about the mouse cursor in X, that is...
[22:04:18] <quasi> get a larger machine :)
[22:04:20] <cmihai> There is a dpi setting in X.
[22:04:21] <cmihai> Somewhere.
[22:04:32] <cmihai> No idea about XSun, sure about Xorg.
[22:04:57] <cmihai> Resolution under mouse section, no idea about XSun :-)
[22:05:20] <cmihai> You could try to change mouse speed too, but that won't help :-)
[22:05:25] <bthornton> yeah
[22:05:32] <bthornton> hmmmm
[22:05:55] <bthornton> I'm sure I could find the dpi setting but I don't see how that would change anything
[22:06:35] <cmihai> Grin and bear with it.
[22:07:29] <alanc> I don't think there's any way to change it - Ultra 80 would be old serial mouse
[22:07:48] <cmihai> alanc: good point :P
[22:07:57] <asyd> \_o<
[22:07:58] <cmihai> alanc: I am used to my dynamic DPI changing 3000 DPI mouse
[22:08:50] * cmihai thinks... Ultra 80.. ugh.. PS/2... USB... hm... ;-(
[22:09:07] <bthornton> Ultra 80 has neither of those things, unfourtaintely
[22:09:09] <cmihai> Might not even be a mouse issue here, the damn thing is ancient
[22:09:17] <cmihai> bthornton: yeah, I know :-\
[22:09:26] <wesolows> You know, an obvious drawback to open development is that there's really no way to kill bad *ideas*, only bad *implementations*.
[22:09:27] <cmihai> Well... you're stuck.
[22:09:41] <wesolows> At Sun, you can kill bad *ideas* by getting them defunded.
[22:09:49] *** svanga has quit IRC
[22:09:52] <cmihai> You can also kill people, that's always fun.
[22:09:59] <cmihai> Or at least pkill their processes.
[22:10:07] <wesolows> I'm sure it is, but if I go that route I'll have to go into hiding afterward.
[22:10:23] <cmihai> pkill -9 wesolows
[22:10:29] <cmihai> :P
[22:10:43] <wesolows> Don't need to kill people, just their bad ideas.
[22:11:03] <cmihai> So, it's a Linux vs. Linus thing? :D
[22:11:14] <wesolows> Not touching that.
[22:11:20] <cmihai> heh
[22:11:46] <wesolows> Actually, it's not even necessary to kill bad ideas, just to be able to force them into their own fork.
[22:12:37] <CSFrost> we are forking again?
[22:12:54] <cmihai> "Yeah, well, fork you guys, I'm going home!"
[22:12:55] * wesolows copies his pagetables
[22:13:20] * cmihai enters Bender mode
[22:13:25] <cmihai> Fine, I'm going to make my _own_ *BSD! with blackjack, and hookers... in fact, forget the *BSD
[22:13:34] <wesolows> bender++
[22:14:01] <cmihai> Replace BSD* with your OS of choice :-)
[22:14:40] <cmihai> wesolows: forking can be quite weird.
[22:14:40] <jamesd> cmihai, just make sure those hookers don't install any viruses or remove any of your assets during their visits.
[22:14:54] <cmihai> I've seen people fork over really insane things.
[22:15:07] <CSFrost> your a prick, I'm fork'n
[22:15:10] <cmihai> Like MirBSD ;-). They forked because the didn't want to include "wtf" in base :D
[22:15:21] <cmihai> s/the/the0
[22:15:42] <wesolows> I actually thinks forks are healthy
[22:16:01] <cmihai> Eh, not always. Sometimes all they do is split the user and developer base.
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[22:16:09] <cmihai> In some cases though, they work great. See XOrgh
[22:16:18] <wesolows> But then, I also think self-determination extends all the way to the right to have a country all your own if you don't like the one you're in.
[22:16:40] * cmihai goes create Seaworld.
[22:16:45] <cmihai> Oh, wait :-)
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[22:17:16] <bthornton> forks allow us to create a kinder, gentler *BSD
[22:17:39] <cmihai> WimpBSD? :-)
[22:18:17] <bthornton> hey don't steal my idea! :p
[22:19:46] <CSFrost> better patent it quick
[22:19:57] <cmihai> FreeBSE!
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[22:20:09] <wesolows> bovine spongiform encephalopathy?
[22:20:22] <cmihai> Yeah
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[22:25:13] <cmihai> Gasp, 65 out
[22:26:25] <quasi> or you could do one up on openbsd for security by removing the network stack and disabling local logins ;)
[22:26:38] <wesolows> 65C?  That's...astonishing!
[22:27:08] <CSFrost> yep, cooking burgers
[22:27:09] <wesolows> quasi: That's not really good enough; someone could still use SQUIDs to snoop.
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[22:29:48] <quasi> wesolows: next you unplug the power, shred the motherboard and bury the whole thing in 25 tons of concrete - then you might even manage a C2 cert if the base os was windows ;)
[22:30:53] <wesolows> I'm still not sure that's good enough; you forgot to melt the disk drives at twice the Curie point of iron.
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[22:31:03] * quasi remember the happy days when nt4 was C2 certified, but only if it didn't have a network connection
[22:31:08] <agliodbs> wow, and the licensing arguments start again
[22:31:21] <wesolows> There's a licensing argument?
[22:31:28] <CSFrost> did they stop?
[22:31:55] <quasi> wesolows: braniac might have a solution - a few pounds of thermite should clear the issue
[22:32:04] <cmihai> Is SXCE 65 really out?
[22:32:24] <wesolows> You know, one of these days I'm to start running a script to randomly unsubscribe people from opensolaris-discuss, and not allow them to resubscribe for 5 days.  That way only the hardcore flamers will still be there, and everyone else can focus on important things.
[22:32:27] <cmihai> I don't see it on SDLC
[22:32:38] <wesolows> quasi: A few pounds of thermite usually does.
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[22:34:02] <alanc> cmihai: tried following the download links from opensolaris.org?   sounded like people were getting it from there earlier today
[22:34:06] <quasi> wesolows: while you're at the scripting mailing lists, could you please do something to ban people who move discussions from osol-discuss on to 14 or more lists
[22:34:09] <cmihai> alanc: yes.
[22:34:17] <cmihai> alanc: that link pointed me at 64a
[22:34:44] <stevel> http://opensolaris.org/sxce_dvd points to 65
[22:34:49] <CSFrost> you need to use the direct link
[22:34:58] <wesolows> quasi: In all seriousness I would not be sad if someone proposed a policy that all opensolaris mailing lists must reject messages to or cc opensolaris-discuss.
[22:34:59] <CSFrost> yea, stevel, could you toss that in topic please?
[22:35:14] <stevel> csfrost: i think it automsgs you when you join the channel
[22:35:15] <CSFrost> this happens everytime a new build comes out.
[22:35:43] <cmihai> stevel: right, used opensolaris.org link.
[22:35:44] <CSFrost> stevel, I mean that link :-)
[22:35:44] <cmihai> Thanks mate.
[22:35:53] <alanc> hmm, yeah - the links onthe opensolaris download page are still 64a, stevel's link is 65
[22:36:01] * cmihai grumbles about just finishing 8 LiveUpgrades.
[22:36:22] <CSFrost>  /topic Latest SXCE 65 | Latest ON 65 | Starter kits: http://get.opensolaris.org | http://opensolaris.org/sxce_dvd
[22:36:23] <quasi> alanc: yeah, the download page usually lags for a while
[22:36:25] <CSFrost> :-)
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[22:36:49] <alanc> I thought they were going to fix the download page to use the same autoupdate magic links
[22:37:06] <CSFrost> alanc, I heard that too, but I guess it had been overlooked.
[22:37:17] <stevel> email website-discuss and ask derek to update
[22:37:30] <alanc> btw, the nvidia drivers in nv_65 suck badly on old AGP cards
[22:37:39] <CSFrost> if it could go in the topic, it would save 20 more questions about it today though :-)
[22:38:06] *** stevel changes topic to "Latest SXCE 65 | Latest ON 65 | Starter kits: http://get.opensolaris.org | http://opensolaris.org/sxce_dvd"
[22:38:17] <CSFrost> many thanks.
[22:38:20] <richlowe> alanc: the magic links are bad.
[22:38:23] <richlowe> unless steve fixed them.
[22:38:30] <richlowe> they directed me to b243 this morning.
[22:38:40] <alanc> they work now
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[22:38:42] <richlowe> jet lag, perhaps.
[22:38:49] <stevel> richlowe: i fixed 'em
[22:38:52] * sfire||mouse pounces richlowe
[22:39:00] * stevel doesn't know how they bumped up to 243
[22:39:22] <alanc> b243 won't be until 2014
[22:39:23] <CSFrost> if you go around the world in one direction fast enough.. you can move time ahead.
[22:39:39] <alanc> no idea if we'll have released Nevada by then or not...
[22:39:44] <wesolows> wow, some sort of "time warp"?
[22:40:23] <g4lt-U60> alanc, no, they'll have indiana builds by then ;P
[22:41:22] <CSFrost> alanc, were you going to toss an email to website-discuss, or want me to?
[22:41:38] <alanc> go for it
[22:41:59] <tek-ops> well i'm leaving for now, have a good weekend all
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[22:42:12] <rmc> and then install mediawiki, right ;-)
[22:42:45] <tek-ops> btw, hahaha "who are you guys talking to" :-P
[22:42:48] <tek-ops> I love this channel
[22:42:49] <tek-ops> hahahaha
[22:42:50] <tek-ops> bye
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[22:42:53] <CSFrost> rmc = ? :-)
[22:43:23] <CSFrost> trying to place a name to the /nick
[22:43:38] <CSFrost> Richard = RMC?
[22:43:47] <g4lt-U60> richard m ctallman ;P
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[22:44:32] <rmc> csfrost: yes, just lerking...
[22:44:37] <rmc> lurking
[22:44:48] <CSFrost> hehe, no problem, you just surprized me is all :-)
[22:44:53] <rmc> no problems
[22:44:59] <agliodbs> wow, bitmap index is held back *again*
[22:45:04] <rmc> actually, that should be "no worries"
[22:45:35] <CSFrost> as long as it's in java format it's fine :-)
[22:46:24] <rmc> allanc: looking forward to the website-discuss thread
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[22:47:16] <rmc> off topic: anyone had to bfu a non-swan connected machine from b45 to b65 recently?
[22:47:46] <rmc> do I really need all the wos pkgs/dvd avail for bfu to work if its off-swan (for update_pkgs)
[22:48:21] <richlowe> rmc: off-swan, we don't even have the update_* scripts, but if the flag days require such things, yes you need a full image.
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[22:48:56] <Symmetria> lo all
[22:49:15] <wesolows> bfuing across 20 builds is likely to cause grief on or off the swan
[22:49:33] <rmc> Yeah, I'm expecting it to be fun.
[22:49:50] <rmc> bring on zfs boot... snapshot/rollback would be nice to have in the back pocket
[22:49:51] <brendang> rmc: G'Day Richard
[22:49:53] <rmc> heya
[22:50:05] <rmc> brendan's up for a chinwag
[22:50:32] <CSFrost> alanc, mail sent, so hopefully it will happen this time :-)
[22:50:47] <CSFrost> Afternoon as well brendang.
[22:50:57] <brendang> G'Day Christopher
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[22:52:02] <CSFrost> Either of you two heard an answer about the java requirements yet? :-)
[22:52:07] <Symmetria> how do I make opensolaris cd boot in single user failsafe mode
[22:52:13] <Symmetria> what do I put at the end of the boot string
[22:52:15] <Symmetria> just -s?
[22:52:35] <Symmetria> basically want it to boot with, errr, no modules loaded etc
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[22:56:52] <Symmetria> hrm no way to boot off cd into failsafe/single user mode?
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[23:01:31] <alanc> for sparc, I've always just done boot cdrom -s
[23:01:38] <alanc> don't remember the grub way for x86
[23:04:32] <Symmetria> heh found it, and found the problem
[23:04:36] <comay> you should be able to do it by editing the GRUB kernel line
[23:04:37] <Symmetria> problem with the server is its internal video card
[23:04:40] <Symmetria> is completely screwed
[23:04:48] <Symmetria> if I boot serial interface by editing grub it boots
[23:04:54] <Symmetria> otherwise it reboots itself
[23:04:55] <Symmetria> :p
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[23:14:20] <Symmetria> I can just eeprom console=ttyb to make sure this thing boots console in future right?
[23:14:57] <Cinder-> is it sparc or x86?
[23:15:15] <Symmetria> x86
[23:15:24] <Cinder-> edit the grub config then
[23:17:30] <pgomez> can I do live upgrade from b60 (not sxde) to the sxde b64 ?
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[23:17:56] <trygvis> pgomez: liveupgrade
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[23:18:30] <Symmetria> can you put multiple -B options on the grub config line?
[23:18:49] <Symmetria> I.E -B console=ttyb -B console-mode=38400,n,8,1,-
[23:18:52] <Symmetria> or something to that effect
[23:18:55] <wesolows> Yes, separate them with commas
[23:19:21] <wesolows> I do not know what happens if you do -B x=y -B z -B mumble
[23:19:42] <Cinder-> just try it and cross you fingers :)
[23:20:03] <gdamore> wow, I just discovered "digest -a md5".
[23:20:06] *** silk has quit IRC
[23:20:13] <gdamore> its about 50% faster than CSW's gmd5sum.
[23:20:22] <gdamore> (on amd64)
[23:20:40] <wesolows> I wonder if gmd5sum bothers to use libmd5
[23:20:46] <wesolows> probably not, which explains the difference
[23:20:47] <richlowe> I doubt it.
[23:20:50] <gdamore> i strongly doubt it.
[23:21:16] <gdamore> the digest command should use PKCS#11, though.
[23:21:22] <migi> gdamore, did you use that digest on the same file which was used before to calculate via gmd5sum?
[23:21:38] <gdamore> i compared *user* times.
[23:21:43] <wesolows> But GNU md5sum is much better because it's external source that we don't have to maintain or understand or integrate with the rest of the system.  We should really replace digest -a md5 with a small wrapper hat just calls gmd5sum.
[23:22:01] <gdamore> obviously there is a big difference between first run and second run, due to caching.   but i eliminated that for the comparision.
[23:22:15] <wesolows> After all, we're here to aggregate other people'
[23:22:20] <migi> gdamore, yes this is what I am asking
[23:22:21] <wesolows> s work, not write software.
[23:22:26] <migi> caching...
[23:22:26] <gdamore> aggravate, is more like it.
[23:23:03] <Cinder-> aww you beat me to it
[23:23:08] <gdamore> actually, i want an md5sum shell script provided that does digest -a md5.... probably i'm not alone in my previous ignorance of the digest command
[23:23:19] <wesolows> oh, good heavens, no
[23:23:25] <alanc> I have a ~/bin/md5sum script that's just "digest -a md5 $*", since some of the X.Org packaging scripts expect md5sum to be installed
[23:23:52] <alanc> though I actually prefer the digest -v -a md5 output format
[23:23:53] <gdamore> right, that is probably sufficient.  a lot of people are used to "md5sum"...
[23:24:01] <wesolows> research shows that although digest is better and gmd5sum could easily be implemented as either a wrappper or a "go use X" script, most users coming from other operating systems "just want gmd5sum" so we should really just provide it.
[23:24:06] <richlowe> The output format still differs slightly.
[23:24:18] <alanc> also, sha1sum = "digest -a sha1 $*"
[23:24:22] * gdamore throws a gnu at wesolows.
[23:24:27] * wesolows dodges
[23:24:30] <richlowe> because apparently everyone decided to use a slightly different set of output when they did these things, just to make checking them with cmp impossible.
[23:24:39] <gdamore> and a yak for good measure. :-)
[23:24:46] <wesolows> the yak got me :-(
[23:25:27] <Cinder-> as long as we don't start throwing stallmans around
[23:25:40] <wesolows> no kidding; those things are sharp, and someone could lose an eye
[23:25:50] <gdamore> and heavy, to boot.
[23:25:56] <gdamore> not mention a bit rank.
[23:25:59] <Cinder-> lol :)
[23:26:25] <gdamore> although that yak probably qualified on both counts, as well. :-)
[23:26:47] <Cinder-> I've never seen a real life yak so can't verify that
[23:27:10] <alanc> btw, nv_66 X changelog posted to http://opensolaris.org/os/community/x_win/changelogs/changelogs-nv_60/ - probably most interesting change is adding the vmware mouse driver
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[23:35:16] <cmihai> Gasp
[23:35:31] <cmihai> alanc: there are VMWare tools for Solaris too, neat!
[23:36:23] <alanc> we already had the vmware video driver in Solaris, just not the mouse one
[23:37:53] <cmihai> The new replay and debugging tools in VMWare 6 are nice, and it is faster then Synaptics ;-)
[23:38:18] <cmihai> OH, PS: don't try installing the tools on SXCE :P
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[23:39:18] <alanc> one of the reasons we bundled is that we can react to changes in our Xserver faster than VMWare can - such as the recent addition of 64-bit Xorg binaries in Solaris
[23:40:02] <cmihai> Yeah, that's cool.
[23:43:24] <gdamore> hmm... looks like there were a few nvidia fixes in b65.
[23:44:19] <AbeFroman> damnit i just installed 64a
[23:44:37] <gdamore> heh.  i knew of other problems in 64a, which is why i was waiting for 65.
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[23:51:15] <alanc> gdamore: yeah, they had to put in mapping fixes for the nvidia drivers to work with Xen, so rolled up a bunch of bug fixes at the same time
[23:51:31] <alanc> besides, b65 brings in GNOME 2.18
[23:51:48] <e^ipi> hey alanc, so... the intel DRI driver is in 65, yes?
[23:52:00] <alanc> I think so
[23:52:04] <e^ipi> fantastic
[23:52:42] <CSFrost> 'fabulous'
[23:52:48] <alanc> 6497788 is marked as integrated into nv_65, so it better be
[23:53:18] <alanc> though I think that's still up to i945 only - i965 is still in progress
[23:53:49] <e^ipi> i've got i915, so the 965 brokenness doesn't really affect me
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[23:57:37] <Cinder-> does anyone know of an efford to get the touchpad on macbooks working? Google didn't turn up anything for solaris and don't want to reinvent wheels
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