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[00:11:28] <quants> can someone explain to me how to fetch the opensolaris source code?
[00:11:39] <quants> seems all overly automated, and solaris centric
[00:11:52] <quants> I don't want to download within vmware
[00:12:07] <dlg> install mercurial
[00:12:12] <quants> have it
[00:12:19] <quants> abort: clone by revision not supported yet for remote repositories
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[00:12:28] <dlg> ugh
[00:12:35] <dlg> i miss the time they had tarballs up
[00:12:42] <quants> meetoo
[00:13:11] <kupfer> there should still be tarballs for the biweekly snapshots.
[00:13:25] <quants> direct link?
[00:13:42] * kupfer goes to find the URL
[00:14:29] * kupfer listens to his disk grind and then watches Firefox die
[00:14:32] <kupfer> :-(
[00:14:50] <kupfer> okay, let's try again
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[00:15:37] <kupfer> http://dlc.sun.com/osol/on/downloads/b55/
[00:16:00] <kupfer> look for "ON Source"
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[00:18:10] <richlowe> you could just clone the tip, then update -C <tag>
[00:18:28] <quasi> nice, dlc.sun.com working again
[00:19:54] <quants> YEAH!
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[00:25:07] <Tpenta> the non-debug encumbered bins for 55 are up there too
[00:26:00] <sahafeez> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/6250511.stm Ouch!
[00:26:35] <Tpenta> that could get interesting
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[00:27:12] * Tpenta thinks, hmmmm, if cisco have IP Phone, they might have a case
[00:27:54] <quants> is the whole JDS sources in it? (on sources)
[00:28:07] <Tpenta> jds is seperate but available
[00:28:22] <quants> how can I get it?
[00:28:23] <Tpenta> http://dlc.sun.com/jds/downloads
[00:29:57] <quants> "Not Found"
[00:29:58] <quants>  The requested object does not exist on this server. The link you followed is either outdated, inaccurate, or the server has been instructed not to let you have it.
[00:30:40] <quants> sun seems to be having a bad day
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[00:35:18] <sommerfeld> too much partying due to a 4.5 year high stock price.
[00:35:20] <estibi> when i have for example 4 disks in raidz, is it possible to add another one to my pool ?
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[00:35:59] <sommerfeld> estibi: it is not possible to change the number of disks in a raidz group.  it is possible to add multiple raidz groups to a pool.
[00:36:25] <estibi> sommerfeld: ok, thanks
[00:36:55] <sommerfeld> with the current raidz structure, changing the width of a raidz would require moving around all of the allocated data in the pool.
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[00:39:45] <quants> svn co svn+ssh://anon at svn dot opensolaris.org/svn/jds/spec-files/trunk spec-files
[00:39:56] <quants> that seemed to wrok
[00:40:20] <sommerfeld> fixing this would be desirable but is pretty far back in the RFE queue, behind things like device removal
[00:40:30] <sommerfeld> and crypto
[00:45:55] <laca> Tpenta, quants, the download url for jds is http://dlc.sun.com/osol/jds/downloads/current/
[00:46:19] <Tpenta> ahh laca, I need to chat with you abt jds
[00:46:29] <Tpenta> trying to do the build on my notebook
[00:46:50] <Tpenta> it fails looking for libpopt-manpages-0.1.tar.gz
[00:47:01] <Tpenta> any thoughts on what I'm doing wrong?
[00:47:06] <laca> Tpenta: cd Solaris/manpages; make
[00:47:20] <Tpenta> ahhh, can we get that added to the build instructions?
[00:47:32] * laca looks
[00:48:10] <laca> oh, it really isn't there
[00:48:13] <laca> will add it today
[00:48:16] <Tpenta> the reason I'm trying the build is I want the gst-python changes to let me try playing with jokosher
[00:48:36] <Tpenta> they have just (in the current svn for it) made it able to use a generic output device
[00:48:37] <laca> cool
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[00:50:21] * Tpenta boots his ferrari back into his "play" boot environment, where he has already done the pkgtool uninstall to try again
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[00:52:21] <Torkel8> Hi! A friend wanted to try a Unix or Gnu/linux distribution. I Installed Solaris for him. It was too difficult for him to shut it down. So he wanted Ubuntu instead. I guess the shutting down can be done easy with RBAC or SUDO. But wouldn't it be great if there was an option for this when creating a user account???
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[00:54:03] <Tpenta> Torkel8: I just tap my power button, but that's with frkit installed
[00:54:56] <Torkel8> Tpenta: What is frkit?
[00:55:45] <Tpenta> a set of extras that casper dik wrote
[00:56:04] <sommerfeld> "Ferrari Kit".
[00:56:13] <Tpenta> opensolaris.org/os/community/laptop/frkit
[00:56:25] <kupfer> I wonder what percentage of frkit users are actually on a Ferrari these days.
[00:56:26] <sommerfeld> (making life with solaris on acer ferrari notebooks more comfortable)
[00:56:42] <Tpenta> but it's a bit mor egeneric than just the ferraris now
[00:56:43] * kupfer uses frkit on a Vaio
[00:57:30] <jbk> if only broadcom weren't such douc^H^H^H^H difficult people about releasing specs
[00:58:48] <Torkel8> I see, well would someone like to suggest my idea to a developer or tell me how to do it?
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[01:01:09] <kupfer> well, I think the first thing you'd need to do is figure out just what you mean by "when creating a user account".  When you run "useradd" or...?
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[01:03:04] <Torkel8> That is for the developer to decide. I am just talking about a simple way to give a normal user the right to shut down the computer.
[01:03:43] <kupfer> the catch is, the people who work on GUIs are typically not the same people who work on the command-line utilities.
[01:04:00] <nrubsig> kupfer: WHat about dtksh ? :-)
[01:04:11] <kupfer> huh?
[01:04:21] <kupfer> oh, I see.
[01:04:36] <nrubsig> kupfer: it's a shell (command line utility) which can run GUIs
[01:06:33] <kupfer> Torkel8: if you're familiar with opensolaris.org, there's a sysadmin-discuss list.
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[01:06:44] * kupfer checks if there's a better candidate.
[01:07:13] <kupfer> ah.  approachability-discuss.
[01:07:53] <Torkel8> Well, I guess it should be in both command-line and GUI then. But since this is important for newbies, the GUI is probably more important.
[01:08:57] <kupfer> approachability-discuss is probably a better list than the sysadmin one.
[01:09:40] <Torkel8> So do you think it is a great or a stupid idea?
[01:10:18] <alanc> Tpenta: the power button shutdown went into generic Nevada about 20 builds ago - don't need frkit anymore
[01:10:25] <lasseoe> Torkel: stupid idea
[01:10:28] <kupfer> well, my preference would be to just make it easy for whoever's logged onto the console to turn off the power.
[01:10:43] <lasseoe> imho it's a bit like complaining that you can't drive a car because you've never learned how to
[01:11:01] <alanc> kupfer: /usr/openwin/bin/sys-suspend will do that (it's what the power button runs)
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[01:11:14] <kupfer> I just use the power button. ;-)
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[01:11:50] <Tpenta> i think you can also run suspend from the jds menus
[01:12:09] <alanc> and if you switch to gdm, you can turn on shutdown in the jds menus from gdmsetup
[01:12:11] <Tpenta> or maybe not :(
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[01:12:36] <alanc> (seems silly, but somehow JDS determines shutdown-ability from the login screen manager)
[01:12:57] * Tpenta wonders how long my jds build will take on a fr4005
[01:12:58] <alanc> but I also just use the power button on my laptop
[01:13:38] <Tpenta> probably will run better with a network, o bugger I cant run inetmenu with jds installed
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[01:16:46] <kupfer> later, folks.
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[01:24:21] <Torkel8> Another thing would be to have a different wallpaper on every workspace in JDS. This can be done with KDE.
[01:28:05] <Tpenta> it can be done with cde too and is one of teh annoyances i find with gnome
[01:28:39] <richlowe> if you can see the background, you clearly don't have enough windows open to actually be working ;)
[01:29:06] <richlowe> it's a productivity boost! you get bored, open stuff to cover it up, get work done. :)
[01:29:37] <Torkel8> ;-)
[01:30:36] <Tpenta> :)
[01:30:43] <Torkel8> I thought Sun was all about choice. ;)
[01:30:53] <Tpenta> looking at my current dual screen u60, I'd have to agree with tat as I can't currently see my background ;)
[01:31:00] <stevel> transparent terminals!
[01:31:10] <Tpenta> Thanks laca, that fixed it
[01:31:14] <Tpenta> hello steve
[01:32:12] <hile_> tpenta: your list of annoyances isn't countably infinite?
[01:32:56] <Tpenta> :)
[01:34:39] <Peanut> So many great Hubble pictures, and only a few screens to put them on as wallpaper...
[01:34:48] <stevel> hey alan
[01:37:12] <Torkel8> So many great pictures of beatiful women, and only a few screens to put them on as wallpaper...
[01:37:21] <alanc> Torkel8: Sun is all about choice, but GNOME is all about not confusing users with too many options
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[01:39:41] <Torkel8> So perhaps it shouldn't be possible to have a wallpaper at all then. Only a black screen. Even more simple. ;-)
[01:42:19] <quants> popups!
[01:42:30] <quants> for you wall paper
[01:43:13] <quants> you too can advertise pron!
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[01:45:14] <alanc> but where would we put the giant Java & Solaris logos without wallpaper?
[01:45:39] <richlowe> irritating splash screen.
[01:45:42] <quants> stickers
[01:45:43] <richlowe> same as the Adobe logo.
[01:45:59] <lloy0076> alanc: In a system modal dialog which you can only get rid of by sacrificing 5 live virgins!
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[01:46:28] <alanc> true - we do have the obnoxious popups on first login
[01:46:33] <quants> we don't want an 40yr old virgins plz
[01:49:07] <quants> this is painful: http://lxer.com/module/newswire/view/46502/
[01:51:24] <mihaic> quants: not really, typical slashdot attitude.
[01:51:27] <alanc> JDS/Linux was painful
[01:51:38] <mihaic> Besides, Linux JDS is ooold and useless
[01:52:09] <alanc> it is now, since the Linux releases of JDS3 and later were cancelled
[01:52:13] <jmcp> quants: old, and there was a lot of followup about to show the other side of the story too
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[01:53:06] <quants> what happened?
[01:55:15] <quants> I think SUN needs to get back to basics
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[01:56:55] <alanc> that's sort of what happened when projects like JDS/Linux went by the wayside to concentrate on Solaris instead
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[01:57:19] <quants> seems like everybody today is still trying to hold on to the past, we don't see a lot of dreamers these days
[01:57:39] <quants> alanc: I agree with that
[01:58:05] <nrubsig> quants: there are still dreamers like me who still think we could make Solaris more POSIX-compatible.
[01:58:24] <nrubsig> quants: and get /usr/bin/ksh updated, too.
[01:58:33] <quants> lol
[01:58:39] <nrubsig> yeah
[01:58:44] <nrubsig> thank you
[01:58:49] <richlowe> ... since when was it *not* posix compatible?
[01:58:56] * nrubsig sits sulking in an edge.
[01:58:58] <richlowe> if you just mean the path stuff, that's a different issue.
[01:59:12] <nrubsig> no
[01:59:44] <nrubsig> things like /usr/bin/grep start to suck because they do not support multibyte locales properly
[01:59:48] * jmcp saunters off to lunch
[01:59:55] <nrubsig>  /usr/xpg4/bin/grep does
[02:00:00] <richlowe> That's just the path issue.
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[02:00:04] <richlowe> which, as I said, is different.
[02:00:44] <nrubsig> richlowe: I would expect that the tools in the DEFAULT (=/usr/bin/) path can handle multibyte locales.
[02:00:45] <_syphilis_> however many excuses people make for it, i can't accept that freezing /usr/bin at moment of inception and never changing it in the name of backward compatibility is not the right path
[02:00:50] <nrubsig> which is NOT the case.
[02:00:57] <_syphilis_> s/is not/is/
[02:01:14] <alanc> missing multibyte locale support is not a POSIX compatibility problem but i18n bugs
[02:01:28] <richlowe> none of this at all relates to posix compatibility.
[02:01:35] <alanc> _syphilis_: /usr/bin is absolutely not frozen
[02:01:36] <nrubsig> alanc: per irek fixes have been refused due backward compatibilty concerns
[02:01:39] <richlowe> I'm not saying anything else is incorrect, *just* it's association with compatibility.
[02:02:48] <_syphilis_> alanc: then why is it missing features which are in the posix/open group versions?  just people too lazy to modify two commands?
[02:03:01] <richlowe> _syphilis_: Yes.
[02:03:03] <alanc> _syphilis_: in some cases, yes
[02:03:14] <richlowe> where there's no conflict, they *should* be in both.
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[02:03:23] <richlowe> (there was a reference for that somewhere recently, I forget where though)
[02:03:33] <richlowe> the fact they don't is pure snafu, fix fix fix.
[02:03:40] <richlowe> gdamore has nailed 2 (3?) of them in the last month or two.
[02:03:43] <alanc> the ARC policy is that POSIX options should be supported in the /usr/bin versions unless they explictly conflict with existing ones
[02:04:00] <alanc> adding new options that were undefined before is not incompatible
[02:04:33] <_syphilis_> what about incompatible changes which are caused by bugs, but could break existing uses? (i18n being one example)
[02:04:49] <nrubsig> _syphilis_: forget it.
[02:04:52] <alanc> it depends on what is likely to break
[02:05:13] <nrubsig> alanc: At the first sign of such a change the bug gets closed.
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[02:05:15] <quants> I gotta say after seeing this discussion, it is time solaris was opened up
[02:05:16] <nrubsig> WONTFIX
[02:05:27] <alanc> nrubsig: not always
[02:05:43] <alanc> some people are lazy that way, but not everyone
[02:05:49] <nrubsig> alanc: please point me to the case where it happened for the tools in /usr/bin/
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[02:06:11] <alanc> for instance, the fork() call was changed in Solaris 10, after having prior notice given in the Solaris 9 release notes
[02:06:28] <nrubsig> alanc: wasn't that vfork() ?
[02:06:39] <richlowe> So, is someone actually going to try and fix this, or concoct reasons not to?
[02:06:44] <alanc> nope - fork() was changed from forkall() to fork1()
[02:06:54] <richlowe> if it's the latter, I really see no point in this discussion at all.
[02:07:19] <alanc> if you disagree with a bug being closed, raise a discussion on the lists - if others agree it's wrong, it can be reopened
[02:07:55] <nrubsig> richlowe: I would love to fix it but first I'd like to have a ksh93 putback. Somehow I need a new job in the middle of that, too.
[02:08:01] <alanc> incompatible changes like fork() or EOF's wait until minor releases and only rarely go into updates or patches
[02:08:06] <nrubsig> richlowe: and then I'd like to get this junk fixed.
[02:08:18] <alanc> (if there's a security hole bad enough, all rules can be waived)
[02:08:23] <richlowe> On the other hand, however, if bugs marked "wants to work on" are closed WONTFIX they *AT LEAST* need an explanation as to why.
[02:08:27] <richlowe> and discussion.
[02:08:30] <richlowe> and if the reason is dumb, reopening.
[02:08:41] <richlowe> otherwise, as alanc said, talk about it calmly on the lists.
[02:08:42] <nrubsig> alanc: EOF "wait" ? which "wait" ?
[02:09:06] <nrubsig> richlowe: closing the POSIX shell RFE was DUMB, incredibly dumb.
[02:09:30] <richlowe> nrubsig: "EOFs are delayed waiting for..." not "EOF wait"
[02:09:41] <alanc> yes, what richlowe said
[02:10:02] <nrubsig> richlowe: based on the recent RFEs I've tested replacing /sbin/sh with a POSIX version and that works flawlessly.
[02:10:15] <richlowe> ... the posix shell RFE was closed duplicate, if it's the one I'm thinking of.
[02:10:17] <nrubsig> system comes up normally without errors.
[02:10:22] <dwc-> will I still be able to use ^ as a pipe?
[02:10:29] <nrubsig> dwc-: ksh93 does.
[02:10:36] <richlowe> and "system boots" is *SO* not testing for a change like that.
[02:10:39] <onbot> commit by Bryan Cantrill:  6510807 ARC statistics should be exported via kstat
[02:10:56] <nrubsig> richlowe: I know.
[02:11:08] <alanc> a kstat for number of fastracks or cases closed ?
[02:11:15] <alanc> oh wait, that other ARC thingy...
[02:11:22] <comay> lol
[02:11:39] <richlowe> alanc: nah, stats on the members.
[02:11:51] <nrubsig> richlowe: but so far the number of incompatibilities is likely damn near zero.
[02:12:07] <richlowe> Quite possibly, but you'd have to prove it.
[02:12:21] <_syphilis_> commit it, release it and if it breaks, back it out
[02:12:26] <_syphilis_> solaris can learn from linux RE!
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[02:19:35] <hile_> That is going to be a bitch and a half to test, nrubsig
[02:19:47] <nrubsig> hile_: ?!
[02:19:52] <_syphilis_> isn't there a test suite for sh?
[02:20:07] <nrubsig> _syphilis_: for posix shells, yes
[02:30:41] <onbot> commit by Nobutomo Nakano:  6497726 logadm -z doesn't work correctly with -A; 6497739 logadm is free'ing invalid buffer
[02:38:09] <elektronkind> any thoughts on a T1000 acting as a NFS head?
[02:38:27] <_syphilis_> elek: wasteful of an unused internal drive
[02:38:56] <elektronkind> ...to front ~200TB
[02:38:59] <nrubsig> elektronkind: what is a "NFS head" ?
[02:39:47] <elektronkind> The T1000 (or whatever) could sit in front of nTB of disk on a SAN, control the disk with ZFS, and serve it out via NFS.
[02:40:01] <elektronkind> that's what I mean by "NFS head"
[02:40:14] <nrubsig> elektronkind: if you skip the ZFS part and usr QFS it will work fine.
[02:40:39] <nrubsig> elektronkind: you may want to bump the number of max. worker threads to 1024 in this case.
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[02:40:53] <elektronkind> admittantly, I haven't used QFS at all, so I'm pretty unfamiliar with that.
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[02:42:00] <nrubsig> elektronkind: the point is that QFS is faster and much more mature than ZFS. Given the amount of money a 200TB installation costs I think the customer wants stabilty, not bleeding edge tech.
[02:43:48] <elektronkind> well, that's assuming that 200TB is not all for myself :)
[02:44:06] <quants> you heard of afs?
[02:44:09] <_syphilis_> that's a lot of backups of legally purchased DVDs
[02:44:31] <nrubsig> quants: Andrew File System ?
[02:44:32] <elektronkind> quants: I run 8 AFS server. Not using that for this.
[02:44:38] <quants> k
[02:45:01] <xinkeT> jmcp: still around?
[02:45:06] <quants> it's a nice way to speard out
[02:45:09] * nrubsig is away for 25mins
[02:45:10] <elektronkind> it's great for home directories, web stuff, and software.
[02:45:22] <elektronkind> not so much for mass data storage.
[02:45:50] <quants> I'm not sure I can visualize mass data
[02:46:22] <elektronkind> lots of big, big files that afs fileserver would choke on, put it that way.
[02:46:25] <mihaic> Sure you can. Just think pr0n. Lots and lots of HDTV pr0n.
[02:46:34] <quants> yuk
[02:46:40] <quants> pimples!
[02:46:45] <mihaic> heh
[02:46:57] <elektronkind> nah. I wish it were pr0n that I was storing. this is something less interesting, like raw data from the AIRS 1B satellite.
[02:47:03] <mihaic> yum, nipples!
[02:47:15] <quants> neat
[02:47:32] <quants> sat stuff is great
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[02:56:14] <coffman> elektronkind: i think a t1000 would be to low for the job, it has only 1 pcie port
[02:56:36] <coffman> but a couple of them could do :)
[02:57:33] <Auralis> well, depend show fast the data has to flow :)
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[02:59:51] <coffman> how is the data throughput of the pcie on T1s ?
[03:00:00] <coffman> as good as on opteron systems?
[03:00:26] <jamesd> yes, so basicly limited by the max speed of the connector.
[03:02:02] <coffman> a thumper with T1, that would be great
[03:02:53] <jamesd> seems like the link between the two boxes would be the limiting factors, isn't  pci-e limited to  288MB/s?  or even at 1GB/s  the thumper is still faster.
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[03:04:36] <dlg> jamesd: i can get 500MB/s off a raid controller in single pci-e slot here
[03:04:50] <jbk> ok.. my calculations must be off
[03:05:17] <jamesd> dlg the thumper has dones  1GB/s off its disks  verified bt 3rd party benchmarks if tuned properly it can do  2GB/s off the disks
[03:05:23] <jbk> how long should one expect one to take to backup 500gb of data over gige if you assume it is the bottleneck?
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[03:05:49] <dlg> jamesd: im talking about a pci-e slot, not a thumper
[03:05:51] <jamesd> 4seconds is the max theoretically.
[03:05:58] <coffman> its 250 MByte/s per pci-e lane
[03:06:32] <jbk> so, if it's taking a bit longer, it would be safe to assume the network link is not the bottleneck?
[03:06:44] <jbk> and by a bit, i mean closer to 11 hours?
[03:06:49] <jamesd> the comment was made that a  t1000 connected to a x4500 is a good match, except the  thumper would sit idle waiting for its next requiest most of the time.
[03:07:17] <dlg> jamesd: ah, i see
[03:07:18] <_syphilis_> jbk: what are you copying from/to?
[03:07:21] <coffman> dlg: its 250 MByte/s each way
[03:07:33] <rydis> jbk: At wire-speed, shouldn't it be about an hour and a half?
[03:07:37] <dlg> coffman: pci-e x8 slot, if that makes a difference
[03:07:48] <dlg> jamesd: thats probably not a bad situation to have though
[03:07:55] <dlg> 2GB/s would be sequential speeds
[03:07:58] <coffman> dlg: yeah, that does :)
[03:08:08] <dlg> for real workloads you will want a bit of headroom to play with
[03:09:01] <jbk> well this is netbackup over gige, with the majority of the space being in a small number of large files
[03:09:06] <coffman> its sade that the thumper only chips with pci-x, would be nice to have pci-e for some 10gig ethernet
[03:09:12] <jamesd> dlg, depending on workload it may be better just to let the t1000 sit idle and let the x4500 do the whole job if the work load is io bound.
[03:09:33] <dlg> jamesd: true
[03:09:38] <dwc-> gig-e would make for some pretty bored machines if it's sequential
[03:09:47] <jbk> and i'm just questioning if mapping a tape drive over the san is really going to provide that much benefit
[03:09:52] <dwc-> gig-e caps out at about what, no more than 60MB/s?
[03:09:53] <_syphilis_> jbk: well, GE is ~120MB/s.  512000MB would take ~4k secs
[03:09:58] <_syphilis_> (1.2 hours)
[03:09:59] <rydis> jbk: I've seen some horror stories about back-up software, where the main time taken seems to be building complex indexes.
[03:10:11] <dwc-> uh, 120MB/s would be theoretical max
[03:10:38] <_syphilis_> dwc: 60MB/s doing what?
[03:11:11] <dwc-> as roughly half the theoretical max of 120MB/s
[03:11:49] <jbk> of course our wonderful network people don't believe in using jumbo frames, i'm sure that probably doesn't help
[03:11:54] <_syphilis_> dwc: for what..? copying of files? GE in general can do fairly close to theoretical max if you're just moving packets
[03:12:10] <dwc-> oh, without jumbo frames, you're probably closer to 30-40
[03:12:12] <quants> what?
[03:12:17] <dlg> jbk: depends on the nic, but generally nics suck
[03:12:22] <quants> they're on crack
[03:12:33] <dlg> scsi has it great
[03:12:39] <dlg> megabytes per xfer on the bus
[03:12:42] <dwc-> I wouldn't expect to get much more than 500Mbits over gig-e
[03:12:51] <dlg> ethernet gets to interrupt every 1500 bytes
[03:12:54] <dwc-> maybe 720
[03:13:01] <dwc-> but not 1000
[03:13:34] <dwc-> jumbo frames is usually ~9000
[03:13:58] <jbk> it's a cassini nic
[03:14:15] <quants> tmk you can't do Gigbit enet w/o jumbo frame support
[03:14:16] <dlg> its really hard to use jumbos in the real world
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[03:15:37] <jbk> the one thing i've noticed is that there appears to be no consensus as to how big 'jumbo frames' should be
[03:16:24] <quants> that is b/c mtu is set
[03:16:43] <quants> it's not a fire, and forget
[03:17:15] <quants> you can get great gains by playing with mtu
[03:17:40] <quants> some clusters use tiny mtu get get speedups
[03:19:34] <dlg> jbk: bigger than 1500 bytes is how big a jumbo is
[03:20:01] <dwc-> 9000 is the most common
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[03:22:16] <_syphilis_> well, in a not-real-world benchmark, i can do 930Mbps on ge
[03:22:28] <jbk> that's what i mean
[03:22:40] <jbk> it'd be nice if there was a standard size > 1500
[03:22:59] <quants> standard size for what?
[03:23:02] <jbk> instead of 'we support some seemingly arbitrary number > 1500'
[03:23:11] <jbk> for jumbo frames
[03:23:28] <quants> the type of traffic is what mtu is effected by
[03:23:30] <nrubsig> 2345 ?
[03:23:59] <quants> jbk: try it out sometime using a firewire link
[03:24:09] <nrubsig> quants: AFAIK jbk is talking about ethernet frame size.
[03:24:22] <quants> mtu is frame size
[03:24:31] <nrubsig> how large can jumbo frames get ?
[03:24:50] <nrubsig> per ethernet specs
[03:24:57] <quants> they can get big enough to kill your traffic
[03:25:02] <jbk> for example, cassini uses 9194
[03:25:07] <nrubsig> quants: how ?
[03:25:08] <jbk> if you enable jumbo frames
[03:25:47] <jbk> cisco switches don't seem to have a predefined default that i've been able to find (without the benefit of a support site login at least)
[03:25:58] <quants> as I said try it, or read about it
[03:26:43] <jbk> well i'm talking in the context of doing file backups
[03:27:36] <quants> the switches are a whole other consideration
[03:28:05] <quants> this is why I said to try it out with a firewire link
[03:28:24] <dwc-> or a "crossover" link?
[03:28:54] <quants> nics don't need xover cables any more
[03:29:01] <dwc-> which is why I put it in quotes
[03:29:13] <quants> gige in specific
[03:29:50] <dwc-> mdi/mdix, yes
[03:29:59] <dwc-> but not limited to gige
[03:30:18] <quants> exactly
[03:30:41] <dwc-> however, I believe there is still gig-e gear that doesn't support auto mdix
[03:30:50] <dwc-> older stuff
[03:30:57] <nrubsig> dwc-: where ?
[03:31:30] <nrubsig> dwc-: maybe the aliens on p729aj-mk009172448sG still use such an ethernet gear
[03:31:45] <nrubsig> we're on planet earth, remeber ?
[03:31:52] <dwc-> http://www.cisco.com/en/US/products/hw/switches/ps708/products_configuration_guide_chapter09186a00803959e5.html#wp1020031
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[03:33:11] <nrubsig> dwc-: sounds like Cisco is in league with evil aliens
[03:33:24] <nrubsig> (not a surprise)
[03:33:44] <dwc-> older stuff
[03:33:48] <quants> last time I worked in the noc they were still using telnet
[03:33:55] <nrubsig> (they buy anything and get with everyone into bed who looks promising)
[03:34:13] <nrubsig> er
[03:34:16] <Error_404> *yawn* evening all
[03:34:17] <nrubsig> wrong english
[03:34:40] <lloy0076> lol@nrubsig
[03:34:50] <quants> could the engilsh ever be wrong?
[03:35:22] <nrubsig> quants: sure
[03:35:40] <nrubsig> quants: you delivered the best example
[03:35:49] <quants> =)
[03:36:03] <quants> I'm not engilsh
[03:36:07] <jbk> me fail english? unpossible!
[03:36:49] <jamesd> jbk, but you get an A in engrish.
[03:37:21] <jbk> actually i'm not sure if the actual quote was 'that's unpossible' or just 'unpossible'..
[03:37:27] <jbk> and i'm too lazy to google
[03:37:31] <quants> isn't it a dialect in asia somewhere?
[03:37:49] <jamesd>  www.engrish.com
[03:41:11] <Stric> jbk: that's .. I think
[03:43:09] <nrubsig> mabe wea schoult waite ur ovvn englisch diktionarri!
[03:47:04] <alanc> note to self: reject any sponsor-requests from nrubsig to update /usr/dict/words
[03:48:36] <nrubsig> oh boy. I only intended to add "coopersmith" there...
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[03:49:21] <alanc> well, that should be in the default dictionary, just to stop those who believe their spellchecker when it suggests "Coppersmith" instead
[03:49:22] <nrubsig> ... and ksh, ksh93, ksh88, roland, mainz, is, your, new, god, blabla, bashsucks
[03:49:41] <alanc> hmm, Solaris isn't in /usr/dict/words though
[03:49:44] <richlowe> I assume that would be n.  someone who manufactures metal barrels.
[03:49:45] <richlowe> (kegs?)
[03:49:59] <alanc> yes - Coopersmith is a barrel maker
[03:50:14] <richlowe> See, I was going for the combination of Cooper and Smith.
[03:50:16] <richlowe> :)
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[03:51:25] <alanc> (which of course has no bearing on why "barrelmaker" appears in the random words list I had to edit in the barcode hack in xscreensaver)
[03:51:40] <alanc> or maybe just a little bit of one 8-)
[03:52:38] <alanc> though I'm told that's just the nearest english word the people at Ellis Island found for my great-grandfather's original last name, which was something closer to Kuperschmidt
[03:52:55] <alanc> (and I'm sure my german spelling is much worse than Roland's english)
[03:55:11] <nrubsig> "Kupferschmied"
[03:55:42] <nrubsig> but "Schmidt" and "Schmitt" are valid last names in german based on ancient name spelling, too.
[03:56:14] <nrubsig> "Schmied" is "smith" in english AFAIK
[03:56:47] <nrubsig> http://dict.leo.org/ende?lp=ende&lang=de&searchLoc=0&cmpType=relaxed&sectHdr=on&spellToler=on&search=smith&relink=on
[03:57:07] <nrubsig> and "copper" can be translated into "kupfer" (the metal)
[03:57:26] <nrubsig> sometimes I appears to be a slang word for police employees, too.
[03:58:11] <alanc> though in english, it's usually shortened to just "cop"
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[04:04:01] <nrubsig> Al The policaman
[04:04:11] <nrubsig> er
[04:04:16] <nrubsig> Al The policeman
[04:04:22] <nrubsig> stupid typos
[04:04:53] <alanc> nah, Mike can do that - his name's closer
[04:06:44] <richlowe> cursed timezones.
[04:13:42] <boyd> Interesting, alanc (sorry, just came in). I'd have thought the"smith" was redundant in the barrel making profession (just Cooper)
[04:16:24] <Tpenta> multi-skilled ancestry? ;-D
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[04:17:21] <alanc> I've never met anyone who claimed either cooper or coopersmith as their profession, so I don't really know
[04:18:48] <boyd> I know some Fletchers, but they don't make arrows, either.
[04:20:34] * boyd just  noticed that the /etc/lu/synclist file includes /etc/pwhist, but not /etc/security/passhistory. Does anyone know what/if /etc/pwhist has ever been used in solaris?
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[04:25:39] <quants> is the sun managment console part of ON?
[04:25:57] <boyd> I don't think so
[04:26:35] <richlowe> Nope.
[04:26:41] <Error_404> no
[04:26:42] <quants> what other sun-utils are there?
[04:27:51] <richlowe> SMC is part of Admin.
[04:28:13] <richlowe> (in the /usr/sbin/smc sense of it)
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[04:34:05] <quants> richlowe: is there another?
[04:34:58] <quants> I never knew how monolithic sunos was
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[04:44:29] <charlieS> people use SMC??
[04:46:07] <Error_404> i guess
[04:46:12] <quants> what do you use?
[04:46:53] <Error_404> a terminal, because that doesn't eat up a couple hundred megs of ram doing javoid stuff
[04:46:54] <charlieS> vi, puppet, and vi mostly.
[04:47:17] <Error_404> charlieS: and cat
[04:47:27] <charlieS> and a lot of cat :)
[04:47:28] <quants> ram is cheap
[04:47:44] <richlowe> not in amounts sufficient enough to make smc not suck it isn't.
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[04:47:48] <charlieS> time isn't cheap.
[04:47:49] <quants> so sun people hate java ;)
[04:48:14] * charlieS is guessing quants has never bought Sun RAM :)
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[04:48:25] <quants> nevar
[04:48:26] <alanc> who are you calling "sun people"?
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[04:48:42] <quants> anyone using solaris
[04:48:59] <_syphilis_> the problem with smc is smc, not java
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[04:49:07] <richlowe> ah, I was going to say that none of us involved in that were Sun people.
[04:49:08] <charlieS> lol.. solaris has nothing to do with java.
[04:49:09] <_syphilis_> it's perfectly possible to make a nice java management program; smc is not one
[04:49:19] <richlowe> though then alanc involved himself, and he is, ruining the simplicity of that statement.
[04:49:34] <boyd> _syphilis_: I agree... but there are so many sucky java programs that people start to assume it must be java
[04:49:42] <alanc> oh, I'll be quiet again then 8-)
[04:49:57] <Error_404> i've yet to see a decent non- J2EE java program
[04:50:01] * charlieS will agree with anything _syphilis_ says because he has such a cool nick
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[04:50:41] <alanc> time to go home anyway
[04:50:42] <boyd> This week I'm getting better behaviour out of the Java tightvnc client than the C one
[04:50:44] <_syphilis_> Error_404: well, "decent" is obviously somewhat POV.. but i've used azureus quite a bit and i find it quite usable
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[04:51:07] <Error_404> fair enough, i haven't used either
[04:51:36] <quants> when I used p2p I liked limewire
[04:51:37] * charlieS wonders when Sun is going to implement a decent patching solution
[04:51:56] <charlieS> I find it very sad that pca is the closest thing to usable that exists (in safe mode)
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[04:53:43] <charlieS> it seems my attempt to change the subject has killed the channel instead :)
[04:54:14] <_syphilis_> charlieS: i found a nice smpatch bug the other day: sconadm crashes and corrupts the database if you run it on a system with ipv6 configured
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[04:55:15] <charlieS> oh nice.. all my boxes have IPv6
[04:55:42] <charlieS> I guess smpatch works (if it stops patches from overwriting important configs) .. but it's non-free to use :(
[04:55:53] <_syphilis_> non-free?
[04:55:56] <xinkeT> charlieS: go download pca
[04:56:03] <charlieS> I use pca..
[04:56:56] <xinkeT> i originally started to use smpatch before the whole update connection thing came along
[04:57:11] <charlieS> it's sad that I have to use a 3rd parts perl script, though, that will skip patches when a config has changed (surely that's better than overwriting, but still suboptimal)
[04:58:02] <charlieS> they should at least allow smpatch to operate for security updates without the subscription.
[04:58:11] <richlowe> ... it does, doesn't it?
[04:58:15] <xinkeT> i thought it did
[04:58:18] <charlieS> hrm!
[04:58:33] <_syphilis_> smpatch works for all freely available patches without payment
[04:58:38] <_syphilis_> you just need a free sun online login
[04:58:38] * charlieS wasn't aware.. always just got "not authorized" after the first attempt
[04:58:43] <_syphilis_> (which you have already if you downloaded solaris)
[04:58:52] <_syphilis_> charlieS: maybe it broke beause your system uses ipv6
[04:59:00] * charlieS has a sunsolve account with valid hardware contracts
[04:59:11] <_syphilis_> charlieS: the sympton is it seems to register fine, but you'll get 'not authorized' when you try to use smpatch after running sconadm
[04:59:12] <charlieS> _syphilis_: hehe, maybe :)
[04:59:30] <charlieS> well that's better than a sharp stick in the eye.
[04:59:46] <_syphilis_> the other sympton is that when it pretended to work, it corrupted its database :)
[04:59:53] <_syphilis_> you need a magical cacoeadm command to repair it
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[05:00:11] <xinkeT> it took me forever to remove all that ccc junk :)
[05:00:41] <_syphilis_> i suppose i should file a bug about that but i don't really care enough to spend three hours trying to reproduce it
[05:01:17] * charlieS shrugs
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[06:06:16] <nrubsig> What again was the channel name of the Nextgenta people ?
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[06:11:17] <ShadowHntr> nrubsig: #gnusol
[06:11:20] <ShadowHntr> nexenta
[06:11:21] <ShadowHntr> :)
[06:14:17] <quants> nexenta is gnu?
[06:14:29] <ShadowHntr> GNU/OpenSolaris
[06:14:30] <ShadowHntr> :)
[06:14:37] <quants> wow sweet
[06:14:44] <ShadowHntr> it uses Ubuntu as a base
[06:14:44] <_syphilis_> quant: it's gnu in the sense that GNU/Linux is
[06:14:51] <quants> blek
[06:14:52] <_syphilis_> its not an fsf project
[06:15:01] <ShadowHntr> just uses GNU tools
[06:15:03] <ShadowHntr> userland
[06:15:06] <quants> pass
[06:15:07] <ShadowHntr> on top of the OpenSolaris kernel.
[06:15:10] <jamesd> debian/ubuntu userland  on top of a solaris kernel
[06:15:17] <Error_404> thank god opensolaris isn't GPL too
[06:15:30] <Error_404> all that scummy linux code would start to infect it
[06:15:37] <quants> lol
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[06:16:06] <quants> not sure that would ever happen
[06:16:09] <Error_404> plus then you couldn't add a driver without needing to give it away
[06:16:24] <dlg> hrmph
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[06:16:27] <_syphilis_> error: yes, it's a good thing there is no GPL code in solaris, what would we do?!?!?
[06:16:36] <quants> I like the goals of the fsf
[06:16:59] <Error_404> quants: destroy business and set up a socialist utopia?
[06:17:25] <quants> I'm not so much ubuntu, they had a nonfree scuff a while back
[06:17:38] <quants> Error_404: sure why not
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[06:18:10] <quants> business has gotten too fat imo
[06:18:29] <quants> time for a new bubble
[06:18:42] <_syphilis_> yes, gnu will destroy business.  it's good that sun isn't moving towards an open source business model where software is free and they sell support
[06:19:05] <jamesd> _syphilis_, there not?
[06:19:10] <quants> god save the british ass
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[06:19:27] <_syphilis_> james: i do believe your sarcasometer is broken :)
[06:19:58] <jamesd> quite possibly.... doing laundry  at 11:20 pm sucks
[06:20:42] <Error_404> there's gnu software in solaris, but not the important parts... the kernel's free and not encumbered with the GPL
[06:20:51] <quants> I think it must be a tumble
[06:21:03] <boyd> Doing laundry sucks .
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[06:21:16] <jamesd> yes it does
[06:21:23] <nrubsig> quants: god save the gracious queeeeeeeeeeeeeeks oh long live the queeeeeeeeeeeeeeks...
[06:21:34] <nrubsig> quants: should I continue ?
[06:21:41] <quants> lol
[06:22:58] <nrubsig> send her victorious, snappy and glorious, long to reign over us, tralalallllalalala, god save the queeeeeeeeeeeks
[06:23:01] <quants> I'm doing my best not to sound like a troll, but Error_404 is kickin me
[06:23:44] * nrubsig hopes noone from *.uk, *au
[06:23:57] <nrubsig> *.in etc. reads the blashema
[06:23:58] <boyd> I'm from .au. I don't care.
[06:24:10] <nrubsig> blasphemy
[06:24:19] <quants> aussies always got good humor
[06:24:36] <xinkeT> weird.. i added another 2gb to my tyan s2685 and solaris stopped recognizing two pci-express sil3124 cards.  I remove the new memory, and it's fine
[06:24:41] <nrubsig> boyd: it's it your job as good citizen to kill me at the first sight after this blasphemic thing ?
[06:25:04] <boyd> nrubsig: If you believe out current leader :)
[06:25:05] <quants> it is it you
[06:25:10] <nrubsig> xinkeT: 32bit or 64bit kernel ?
[06:25:14] <xinkeT> 64bit
[06:25:23] <xinkeT> same in 32bit also
[06:25:32] <quants> it may be a bios problem
[06:25:33] <nrubsig> xinkeT: did you pay the license fee for solaris ?
[06:25:54] <nrubsig> and do you run flexlm ?
[06:26:01] <ShadowHntr> um
[06:26:02] <xinkeT> you're funny :)
[06:26:07] <ShadowHntr> isn't flexlm for irix? :P
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[06:26:16] <Error_404> ShadowHntr: and Maple
[06:26:20] <ShadowHntr> ahhhh.
[06:26:21] <nrubsig> ShadowHntr: no, but flexlm is for software, not for hardware.
[06:26:22] <ShadowHntr> Maple?
[06:26:23] <ShadowHntr> :/
[06:26:28] <Error_404> math program
[06:26:31] <ShadowHntr> ahhh
[06:26:38] <quants> lol
[06:26:43] <nrubsig> ShadowHntr: flexlm is a license manager and ancient versions of sun forte used it.
[06:26:48] <ShadowHntr> gotcha
[06:26:49] <Error_404> it's canada's answer to Mathematica
[06:27:03] <ShadowHntr> nrubsig: was thinking the license manager i've read about on IRIX.
[06:27:04] <quants> and any cheap .edu
[06:27:19] <nrubsig> god save the queeeeeeeeeeeks, god save the queeeeeeeeeeeks!! send her victorious, snappy and glorious, long to reign over us, tralalallllalalala, god save the queeeeeeeeeeeks
[06:27:51] <ShadowHntr> god attack the queen, send big dogs after her - that bite her bum.
[06:27:58] * nrubsig watches Tpenta sharpening his axe...
[06:28:01] <nrubsig> uh-oh
[06:28:05] <quants> don't know what set me on the poor brits today?
[06:28:23] <ShadowHntr> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eddie_Izzard
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[06:28:59] <quants> anyboday know the queen's got a tail?
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[06:29:15] <quants> it's this <<<<<<<<<---------->>>>>>>>> big
[06:29:41] <nrubsig> queeeeeeeeeeks
[06:29:57] * boyd isn't offended. He's just bewildered.
[06:30:01] <_syphilis_> that's because the queen was born of redhead lesbian incest
[06:30:10] <john---> how far off is solaris 11 being released by sun?
[06:30:15] <john---> 6 months? a year?
[06:30:22] <_syphilis_> a year or more, probably
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[06:30:38] <Error_404> I thought the projected release date was oct '07
[06:30:40] <jamesd> you can use solaris express  that reports to be solaris 11... but the real thing won't be availible for over a year
[06:30:46] <_syphilis_> error: i think that's just a random placeholder date
[06:30:52] <_syphilis_> little relevance to reality
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[06:31:48] <Error_404> jamesd: and the reporting as sol11 breaks glassfish  :D
[06:31:51] <Error_404> and oracle
[06:31:57] <Error_404> probably others
[06:32:07] <jamesd>  oracle works fine on solaris express
[06:32:12] <jamesd> as does glassfish
[06:32:23] <Error_404> last i tried i had to hack the installer
[06:32:27] <_syphilis_> there's an oracle installer flag to ignore the requirements, i forget what (-ignoresysprereqs or something)
[06:32:37] <Error_404> it worked perfectly after that, but still...
[06:32:56] <jamesd> well time to do it again....  oracle has been fixed for a while
[06:33:47] <quants> sol needs a good vm technology
[06:34:08] <_syphilis_> quants: what's wrong with ldom, xen and zones?
[06:34:11] <quants> the more I use vmware, the more I love it
[06:34:32] <quants> xen can host on solaris?
[06:34:39] <Error_404> domU and dom0
[06:34:42] <quants> wow
[06:34:44] <_syphilis_> it's not integrated yet, but there's active development
[06:34:58] <quants> so it's beta?
[06:35:03] <Error_404> solaris also has BrandZ
[06:35:04] <_syphilis_> yes
[06:35:11] <Error_404> which'll run linux software in a zone
[06:35:13] <_syphilis_> or you can use the T1, which gives you xen in hardware :)
[06:35:35] <quants> T1?
[06:35:38] <_syphilis_> (at least it will when the firmware is released - apparently that's RSN, since solaris has the software support already)
[06:35:43] <_syphilis_> ultrasparc T1 (niagara)
[06:35:49] <quants> blek
[06:36:00] <john---> im in love with vmware...i've been doing amazing things with the free vmware server at work
[06:36:04] <john---> its really scriptable
[06:36:11] <quants> meetoo
[06:36:22] <john---> its not as nice as paying for ESX, but i can transfer machines between hosts
[06:36:22] <_syphilis_> vmware would be nice for some things, but it's not really true that solaris lacks any good vm
[06:36:27] <john---> and have some level of redundancy
[06:36:32] <quants> I have turned off somany machines
[06:36:45] <john---> vmware will let you host a windows box in a vm
[06:36:54] <john---> w're moving our domain controllers to VMs running on top of RHEL
[06:37:13] <john---> no good way to do anything like that with solaris...id rather run it on top of solaris tha on top of linux
[06:37:30] <quants> _syphilis_: I'm just a sol newb
[06:38:24] <quants> I'll read into all of your recommendations, and see if they can work for me.
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[06:38:45] <john---> now if only vmware could run OS/2
[06:38:53] <john---> i have a whole rack of OS/2 machines
[06:39:00] <quants> we part company there
[06:39:03] <john---> thatt are like 100 mhz/65 megs of ram
[06:39:08] <john---> 64*
[06:39:11] <Error_404> john---: seriously? doing what
[06:39:14] <john---> i could run all of that on one new machine
[06:39:19] <john---> running stupid ass legacy apps
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[06:39:55] <john---> it really only does like 2 things, but the whole infrastructure used to be os/2...so every machine has a different role
[06:39:58] <john---> some are domain controllers
[06:40:01] <john---> one is a client
[06:40:03] <john---> one is a DB server
[06:40:10] <john---> one runs the app that connects to the DB server
[06:40:19] <john---> the way its built, they're all necessary
[06:40:21] <john---> it sucks
[06:40:34] <quants> oh no
[06:41:02] <john---> they run some scheduling software..
[06:41:06] <quants> but yeah, w/ vmware you could turn all that off
[06:41:23] <john---> its just that the database is on one machine, the serve ron another...but they need the domain controllers to talk to eachother
[06:41:34] <john---> and we have no good DR plan
[06:41:56] <john---> you can't run OS/2 in vmware though...so all that crap gets to hum away
[06:43:45] <john---> do any of you know of a web based calendar system I can run? that'd probably replace all that stuff
[06:44:07] <john---> its really simple. i literally just need to have a calendar that a secretary can modify the dates on
[06:44:34] <Error_404> google calender?
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[06:47:12] <john---> well, it needs to run locally but yeah something like google calendar is what I need
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[06:49:31] <john---> ah well. bed
[06:49:34] <john---> g'night
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[07:05:56] <jteo> hello *
[07:07:39] <Error_404> ahoy
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[07:59:42] <jteo> grr. Griffin never got back to me. (was interested in hardware docs for the PowerMate)
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[08:06:35] <Griffous> hmm?
[08:06:39] <Griffous> oh, someone else
[08:08:03] <jteo> the company. not you. ;)
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[09:33:04] <yongsun> guys, does anybody know how XChangeProperty and PropertyChangeNotify works with trusted X extension?
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[10:25:53] <trygvis> I wonder why solaris is using so much time in userspace when deleting a bunch of files. (my local svn checkout of a ton of source code)
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[10:42:27] <raph_ael> hello
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[10:51:16] <quasi> asyd: is sd-2210.dedibox.fr you? I'm seeing very many attempts at ssh hacking from there ;)
[10:51:24] <asyd> hmm
[10:51:41] <asyd> nop
[10:52:17] <asyd> dedibox.fr is the name of the company who sold the boxes, by default all boxes have reverse in .dedibox.fr, but not mines :)
[10:53:51] <quasi> just checking ;)
[10:54:04] <asyd> sure :)
[10:56:00] <quasi> not too bad though - only about 500 or so attempts in a day
[10:59:28] <raph_ael> there is an irc channel dedibox if you want to tell people from dedibox quasi
[10:59:38] <raph_ael> but on another server
[11:01:19] <quasi> raph_ael: oh, it is no trouble - things are of course key only, so no real issue there
[11:01:36] <raph_ael> sure :)
[11:01:50] <raph_ael> but maybe they are doing other nasty things :)
[11:02:07] <quasi> oh, I'm sure the box is hacked
[11:04:25] <raph_ael> probably
[11:06:44] <quasi> 2106/tcp  open  ekshell
[11:06:44] <quasi> 12345/tcp open  NetBus
[11:07:10] <quasi> oh yeah, I'm pretty sure it is hacked ;)
[11:08:27] <raph_ael> :)
[11:08:32] <trygvis> hehe
[11:15:07] <lasseoe> what's "special" about dedibox ?
[11:15:36] <asyd> the price
[11:15:51] <quasi> asyd: extra special if you're not in .fr ;)
[11:16:01] <lasseoe> quasi: how so?
[11:16:02] <asyd> right ;p
[11:17:27] <quasi> lasseoe: asyd knows the details, but I seem to remember it went from fairly cheap to rather expensive based on where you were
[11:17:47] <asyd> yeah it's ~60$ for US people iirc
[11:17:50] <lasseoe> quasi: bizarre, why does it matter where you are based?
[11:18:05] <lasseoe> well I'd always charge extra for US :)
[11:18:10] <dlynes_laptop> quasi: why should it matter where you're from?
[11:18:21] <dlynes_laptop> quasi: it doesn't cost them anymore if you're in the US than if you're in France
[11:19:08] <asyd> because to rent directly a dedibox, you need to have a french bank account
[11:19:17] <asyd> and there are some companies who resells
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[11:28:55] <dlynes_laptop> ah
[11:29:02] <dlynes_laptop> you can't just use a credit card?
[11:29:09] <Gr|ffous> !! we had a chick in here
[11:29:26] <dlynes_laptop> Gr|ffous: dood...you need to get out more
[11:29:31] <asyd> dlynes_laptop: nop
[11:29:48] <Gr|ffous> nah, there is sunlight out there. It burns man
[11:29:53] <dlynes_laptop> asyd: ah...that's kind of assinine
[11:29:54] <asyd> and now, solaris is available for dedidox, but it's not very robuts
[11:29:59] <asyd> robust even
[11:30:35] <asyd> since it's not possible to have "bios" access, when the dedibox crashed and you need to repair the / fs..
[11:30:42] <dlynes_laptop> What's the advantage to using Solaris on Intel over say FreeBSD, Linux or Windows?
[11:30:59] <asyd> heay, nowadays solaris works _very_ well on x86
[11:31:04] <quasi> dlynes_laptop: you get a real os ;)
[11:31:13] <dlynes_laptop> Regardless of how well it works
[11:31:16] <dlynes_laptop> What's the advantage?
[11:31:17] <asyd> and freebsd, linux, nor windows doesn't have zfs, zones, dtrace, smf, etc ;p
[11:31:35] <dlynes_laptop> But I've also heard nobody in their right mind would ever use zfs on a production box
[11:31:58] <tsoome> and they are still using linux? ;)
[11:32:12] <Cyrille> how many people in their right mind do you actually know?
[11:32:14] <Cyrille> ;-)
[11:32:15] <dlynes_laptop> No, this is something I heard either in here, or in #solaris from Solaris users
[11:32:35] <dlynes_laptop> I don't lend much credence to anything Linux users say about Solaris
[11:33:03] <Cyrille> or about linux for that matter ;-)
[11:33:04] <dlynes_laptop> They usually go around calling it slowaris, without actually trying it
[11:33:11] <tsoome> well, it all depends how critical your production is
[11:33:14] <dlynes_laptop> Nah...I actually like Linux, myself
[11:33:25] <dlynes_laptop> But, I like Solaris, too
[11:33:50] <Cyrille> and that's your right, but you can get wild claims from zealots about their pet OS too.
[11:33:51] <dlynes_laptop> I'm just much more familiar with Linux than I am with Solaris
[11:34:14] <dlynes_laptop> Well, I don't have a choice about whether my head can be in the clouds or not
[11:34:18] <dlynes_laptop> I live in the real world
[11:34:37] <dlynes_laptop> So I have to deal with FreeBSD, Linux, Windows and now I'm also dealing with Solaris on UltraSPARC
[11:35:24] <dlynes_laptop> But, I'm dealing with Solaris and UltraSPARC by choice
[11:35:43] <dlynes_laptop> Got some good deals on some boxes, and I didn't want to waste them by loading BSD or Linux on them
[11:36:06] <dlynes_laptop> The LOM port is a really kick ass idea :)
[11:36:14] <quasi> dlynes_laptop: put it this way - solaris on intel and sparc are about 95% the same code
[11:36:29] <tsoome> even more
[11:36:43] <dlynes_laptop> Is the context switching latency the same as well?
[11:36:59] <dlynes_laptop> Or is that specific to Sparc hardware?
[11:37:15] <quasi> dlynes_laptop: there's some lom like bits for suns x64 boxes as well (but that pretty much work regardless of the os)
[11:38:02] <dlynes_laptop> One of the guys in #asterisk is able to get 4000 simultaneous calls on a Sunfire running Solaris 10 vs about 1200 on an equally equipped Intel box running Centos
[11:38:23] <dlynes_laptop> That's why I ask regarding the context switching
[11:38:39] <quasi> dlynes_laptop: amd would most likely be somewhere between that
[11:39:08] <quasi> dlynes_laptop: sparc boxes are built to do IO really well
[11:39:19] <dunc> dlynes_laptop: i use both, i have solaris for my my fileserver, and linux for desktop, and the solaris box runs slower, there's no question about it
[11:39:34] <dunc> but i don't care about a gui on my fileserver, so i don't really care
[11:39:50] <dlynes_laptop> I've never used a gui on my sparcs
[11:39:51] <dunc> but i proabably wouldn't be using solaris if it wasn't for zfs
[11:40:04] <dlynes_laptop> Well, I have...I run it on the sparc, and display it on the linux box
[11:40:04] <dunc> that's my 2p of experience
[11:40:13] <dunc> both on amd64 hardware i should say
[11:40:29] <dlynes_laptop> But the solaris java apps are damned slow
[11:40:38] <dunc> if i was a bank, then maybe i'd be considering it for stability etc. but my linux boxes _never_ crash either
[11:40:42] <dunc> so who knows
[11:41:01] <dlynes_laptop> One thing I have noticed about guis though
[11:41:16] <dlynes_laptop> Solaris has a hell of a lot nicer looking fonts than Linux
[11:41:33] * dunc doesn't really notice that stuff
[11:41:39] <dlynes_laptop> Even for the command line
[11:41:54] <dlynes_laptop> Well, I typically spend 12 to 14 hours a day on the computer
[11:41:59] <dlynes_laptop> So I notice it big time
[11:42:24] <dunc> me too
[11:42:25] <dunc> i don't
[11:42:56] <dunc> i don't notice lots of aesthetic things though, so it's probably that :)
[11:43:39] <dlynes_laptop> ah...so you probably don't like macs, either :)
[11:50:17] <dunc> heh, well i've borrowed one a couple times just to have a play, but i never got past the "how the fsck do i do this thing which i'm used to" stage really
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[11:50:34] <dunc> shame i know, i do think that osx looks shiny though
[11:55:02] <gallium> i'm going to ensure opensolaris runs on a mac mini for you ;-)
[11:55:43] <dunc> :)
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[11:55:59] <asyd> hehe
[11:58:05] <quasi> gallium: I think I've seen a howto for that at one point
[11:58:30] <Peanut> Gallium: nice, how about on a macbook?
[11:59:18] <quasi> Peanut: that's already doable afaik - at least with parallels
[11:59:59] <Peanut> Hmm.. interesting option too :)
[12:00:50] <gallium> native opensolaris on mac mini, not parallels.
[12:00:54] <quasi> I was going to say bootcamp, but I think I've seen someone saying parallels
[12:01:31] <quasi> gallium: potentially possible, but the EFI bits make it a little more fun from what I recall
[12:02:26] <gallium> right, i'll add electronic fuel injection (efi) and dtrace it for robustness </jk>
[12:04:28] <quasi> gallium: http://blogs.sun.com/tkblog/entry/solaris_on_the_mac_mini
[12:05:56] <quasi> Peanut: http://blogs.sun.com/danielchu/entry/solaris_10_on_macbook_pro
[12:07:28] <trygvis> is it possible to figure out which bug that duplicates this one: http://bugs.opensolaris.org/bugdatabase/view_bug.do?bug_id=6374985 ?
[12:13:51] <Gr|ffous> http://www.apple.com/macmini/ => "Coupled with an all new architecture and the world?s most advanced operating system, Mac OS X...". Hmm, and here I was thinking that solaris was the worlds most advanced OS ;)
[12:14:21] <PerterB> you mipselled "MULTICS" ;)
[12:14:39] <LeftWing> Gr|ffous: It is. ;P
[12:14:55] <ofu> i hope, the apple tv is a fully functional mac mini (tiny)
[12:15:02] <LeftWing> It won't be.
[12:15:09] <ofu> for 299 with no fans that would be great
[12:15:39] <LeftWing> But, I'm sure some folks will get together and produce some reasonable non-iTunes server backend software that works with its streaming functionality, etc.
[12:16:20] <Gr|ffous> I was just giving some thought to building a PVR with a mac mini -it would be perfect, however I see that all the old and cheap ones are power based. If I thought that intel based imacs was going to be hard, I bet I'd be in for a shock with a G4 based one
[12:16:33] <LeftWing> heh
[12:16:46] <PerterB> that might make it useful... right now itunes video content is max 640x480 but the TV thingie can do 720p output so it's a bit wasted
[12:17:01] <ofu> i cant afford 1080p tv
[12:17:13] <ofu> 720p is enough right now
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[12:17:43] <PerterB> 720p is fine for most purposes
[12:17:52] <LeftWing> Gr|ffous:  I bought a fire sale (27% discount, anyway) Core Solo Mac Mini when the duos were new -- makes a good media centre on my LCD TV.  Front Row is cool.  =)
[12:18:19] <Gr|ffous> running osx then?
[12:18:22] <LeftWing> yeah
[12:18:29] <Gr|ffous> traitor! get out!
[12:18:38] <LeftWing> I was considering putting other stuff on it, but... turns out I have no requirement. =P
[12:18:56] <LeftWing> I have a USB KVM switching my keyboard between my multihead Sun Rays and the mini for keyboard input.  It's a good setup.
[12:19:06] <jamesb> Hi guys, I can't seem to mount a my root UFS partition read-write when booted in recovery mode. mount simply says "write protected". Any ideas?
[12:19:09] <Gr|ffous> I suppose linux support is pretty good for power, if solaris wouldn't work for me
[12:19:30] <Gr|ffous> how are the sun rays going?
[12:19:39] <Gr|ffous> I was asking about them last night
[12:19:52] <LeftWing> Sun Rays are @#$%ing great.
[12:20:16] <Gr|ffous> I guess I'll just have to buy one and try it out
[12:20:25] <Gr|ffous> it looked to me like the server side isn't free though?
[12:20:36] <LeftWing> Gr|ffous: You can download it when nobody's looking. ;P
[12:20:43] <LeftWing> I have about 10 Sun Ray 1's down in the garage in a box if you want one. =P
[12:21:10] <Gr|ffous> yeah, I do
[12:21:26] <Gr|ffous> more then happy to pay shipping :)
[12:21:31] <LeftWing> From Australia? =P
[12:21:49] <Gr|ffous> still has to be better then buying one new right?
[12:22:09] <LeftWing> Well... you can get Sun Ray 2's fairly cheaply these days I think?  Only a few hundred dollars.
[12:22:14] <LeftWing> And you get DVI output.
[12:22:41] <LeftWing> There are generally always Sun Ray 1's on eBay.
[12:22:46] <LeftWing> (That's where I bought mine.)
[12:23:01] <Gr|ffous> to be honest I just want to see what it's like to use. I just can't believe that it won't feel like a TS session
[12:23:14] <LeftWing> It feels a little like a TS session.
[12:23:19] <Gr|ffous> and playing movies etc
[12:23:35] <LeftWing> Heh, it doesn't handle movies terribly well.
[12:23:41] * Gr|ffous fears there is a lot of exageration going on around these things
[12:24:19] <Gr|ffous> I watch movies on my PC quite a bit, if they can't do that, they simply aren't 'seamless desktop replacements'
[12:24:38] <LeftWing> heh
[12:25:01] <Gr|ffous> why do you have 10 of them?
[12:25:18] <LeftWing> They were cheap, and I have occasion to use most of them every once in a while.
[12:25:33] <Gr|ffous> must have been really cheap!
[12:25:40] <LeftWing> About AU$15-20 each.
[12:25:50] <lasseoe> that is very cheap
[12:25:52] <Gr|ffous> wow, where do I get them for that price?
[12:25:55] <LeftWing> eBay.
[12:26:02] <gallium> Gr|ffous: Then you have obviously never used a dual-head sunray + a sunray1g with one of these - http://blog.scifi.com/tech/archives/2006/08/28/radius_320_moni.html :-)
[12:26:06] <LeftWing> AU$50 is probably the long-term average.
[12:27:01] <Gr|ffous> hmm, if I could pick one up here for that price, I'd grab it in a snap
[12:27:25] <Gr|ffous> gallium, no, can't say I have. Have you?
[12:27:43] <gallium> that's what i call a call centre terminal
[12:27:44] <LeftWing> This is, of course, for Sun Ray 1's -- the bog standard older models.
[12:28:16] * LeftWing insists on having at least 2560*1024 worth of desktop wherever he works.
[12:31:27] <Gr|ffous> that's fine
[12:31:42] <Gr|ffous> if I could get three working together nicely, I'd be set
[12:31:59] <Gr|ffous> I've never bought anything from ebay. I fear the international shipping will be rather scary
[12:33:11] <lasseoe> shipping isn't THAT bad to be honest
[12:33:39] <LeftWing> Gr|ffous: Where are you based?
[12:35:13] <Gr|ffous> auckland
[12:35:22] <LeftWing> Ah, NZ?
[12:35:35] <Gr|ffous> heh, I thought you would have checked that already
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[12:35:43] <Gr|ffous> my hostname isn't keeping any secrets
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[12:36:08] <LeftWing> haha
[12:36:17] <LeftWing> Like I could be arsed checking hostnames. =)
[12:36:29] <Gr|ffous> now using xchat then?
[12:36:31] <Berny> .oO(swim over to .au and grab the stuff off LeftWing)
[12:36:34] <Gr|ffous> *not
[12:36:40] <LeftWing> I am using XChat.
[12:36:57] <Gr|ffous> right right click my nick, top menu
[12:36:59] <Berny> the userlist in this channel is just too long... :-)
[12:37:01] <Gr|ffous> 1 click :)
[12:37:20] <LeftWing> Gr|ffous: If my hand was on the mouse, I would. =P
[12:37:30] <Gr|ffous> wow, that is tough! lol
[12:38:01] <LeftWing> Keyboards forever. ;P
[12:38:50] <Berny> /whois ... ;-P
[12:39:27] <LeftWing> Grrrp.  That appears to come up in some sort of other XChat tab. I wonder how to switch with the keyboard.
[12:39:49] <Gr|ffous> ctrl+pg-up
[12:45:46] <Gr|ffous> So I'm still keen on shipping from .au to .nz
[12:45:55] <Gr|ffous> would you be willing to part with one?
[12:46:02] <LeftWing> heh
[12:46:12] <LeftWing> How does $20 grab you? =P
[12:46:19] <Gr|ffous> sounds great
[12:46:24] * gallium has brand new ones with type 6 keyboards
[12:46:40] <Gr|ffous> make me an offer ;)
[12:48:24] <gallium> and a new sun mousepad! ;)
[12:48:31] <LeftWing> I hate shipping things.
[12:48:36] <LeftWing> This is why I've never sold on eBay. =P
[12:48:37] <gallium> actually its keyboard and mouse combo
[12:48:48] <gallium> $100 AUD the lot - brand new
[12:48:49] * LeftWing demands Type 7 keyboards.
[12:48:56] <gallium> LeftWing: I agree but don't have those.
[12:49:14] <LeftWing> I'm going to try and get the Uni to buy one, and then buy it off of them. =P
[12:49:38] <Gr|ffous> what are the differences. I've never actually seen a proper sun keyboard
[12:50:07] <LeftWing> Type 6's are a tiny bit plasticy, Type 7's are the new ones and have a more solid feel to them.
[12:50:11] <Gr|ffous> might you, I don't think I could go back to any normal keyborad after switching to my kinesis ergo
[12:50:20] * LeftWing googles Kinesis Ergo.
[12:50:46] <gallium> i actually like the type 6 feel
[12:50:52] <gallium> just that the type 7 mouse is better
[12:51:29] <Gr|ffous> LeftWing: http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/advantage.htm <-- that's what I use
[12:51:41] <LeftWing> lmao
[12:51:50] <LeftWing> It's like ... Every Scifi Film Ever Made... Volume II!
[12:52:03] <Gr|ffous> :)
[12:52:16] <LeftWing> Also, I don't think I could stand to use it. =P
[12:52:20] <Gr|ffous> I also don't use qwerty, just to _REALLY_ make it different
[12:52:29] * Gr|ffous is a happy dvorak user
[12:52:34] <LeftWing> lmao
[12:52:45] <LeftWing> How completely foreign to me. =P
[12:52:54] <Gr|ffous> who needs passwords, my keyboard is a cypher
[12:53:23] <Gr|ffous> it's great, no one at work CAN use my PC :)
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[13:06:48] <Gr|ffous> does anyone else find it odd that the Sun Blade 8000P, is almost twice the price of it's bigger and more function brother, the 8000?
[13:08:33] <LeftWing> I doubt pricing ever makes much sense. =P
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[13:15:42] <Stric> where 50% higher is almost twice.. but yeah.
[13:17:41] <Gr|ffous> ok, misread that slightly. still... I guess it's all in the power supplies?
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[13:40:24] <Kmays> Sol10u3 has JDS3 - GNOME 2.6
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[13:58:53] <Berny> hmm, how does one geht sol11 going with an usb hard disk if format fail with 'autoconfigure failed'?
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[14:22:04] <Berny> .oO(just delete that funky windows partition and make it solaris)
[14:25:10] <Berny> .oO(hmm, newfs on an 320g usb drive is slooow)
[14:25:27] <lasseoe> yes, very
[14:25:37] <lasseoe> why not put ZFS on it?
[14:26:20] <Berny> because i would have to update my 'old' desktop to use the drive there as well
[14:26:49] <Berny> besides... how does zfs handle it if i don't connect the drive on boot-up?
[14:27:08] <lasseoe> export and import when you want to use it
[14:27:17] <Berny> hmm
[14:27:51] <Berny> let's try if the new vold replacement mounts the drive without further action...
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[14:28:43] <Berny> btw my zfs on snv53 doesn't have export/import?
[14:29:27] <Berny> fantastic...
[14:29:32] <andersmo> Berny: it's a zpool subcommand, I think
[14:29:33] <andersmo> ...not zfs?
[14:29:46] <Berny> d'oh
[14:29:51] <Berny> should have known better
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[14:30:04] <Berny> but hey it gets mounted all by itself...
[14:30:28] <Berny> just that /media/USB\ 2.0\ Ext.\ HDD/ is a rather annoying name 8-)
[14:32:01] <LeftWing> It's a great name.
[14:33:29] <Berny> yeah right
[14:36:00] <LeftWing> It's so expressive. =D
[14:36:47] <Berny> 8-)
[14:39:41] <Berny> hmm, ~9mb/s to an usb drive isn't all that bad?
[14:41:08] <lasseoe> I've had a few external USB2 drives hooked up to 280R with a PCI2 card, and I got poor performance
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[15:12:30] <yongsun> guys, does anybody know how XChangeProperty and PropertyChangeNotify works on trusted X env?
[15:12:40] <yongsun> I run a prop setter in "public" label, and run a prop getter in "internal" label, but the getter can not receive the notify event
[15:13:52] <yongsun> and I also set "property MY_TEST" in TrustedExtensionsPolicy file, to indicate that the property is only initialized once
[15:13:53] <yongsun> however, the getter in same label, could receive the notify event
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[15:28:44] <yongsun> How the X clients with different label (but on same X display) to communicate with each other by properties?
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[16:21:04] <asyd> s 12
[16:21:05] <asyd> oups
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[16:25:39] <ttw> here's a newbie question -- is there application package system for opensolaris ?
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[16:28:28] <Teknix> ttw: yes
[16:28:43] <ttw> *lol* ok
[16:28:46] <Teknix> if you want a graphical tool, it's called synaptic.  But it uses the same system that Debian/Ubuntu uses
[16:28:51] <Teknix> which is dpkg/apt
[16:29:06] <Teknix> er
[16:29:14] <Teknix> sorry, this is #opensolaris not #gnusol, my bad :)
[16:29:23] <ttw> oh, ok ... just need to get X running then ... well or use dselect etc ...
[16:29:24] <Teknix> opensolaris includes the SYSV pkg tools
[16:29:31] <ttw> ... oh, bummer
[16:29:40] <Teknix> if you want dpkg/apt, you can use Nexenta
[16:29:47] <ttw> thought i was on a winner there
[16:30:18] <Teknix> you can use blastwave though, which has pkg-get.. similar to dpkg/apt
[16:30:35] <ttw> but those SYSV package tools ... where do ... you know what i just hate the configuration of them ... ok, anyway ... basically need to have a look
[16:30:44] <ttw> thanks again
[16:31:12] <raph_ael>  sunfreeware.com ttw
[16:31:15] <Teknix> well, take a look at gnusolaris.org for something more like Debian/Ubuntu, or blastwave.org if you want to use opensolaris and have access to pre-packaged software in SYSV pkg format
[16:31:18] <raph_ael> which uses pkg-get
[16:31:19] <ttw> may just use netbsd pkg system and build from source -- at least it's simple and contained
[16:31:41] <raph_ael> i use pkgsrc ttw but it often crashes
[16:31:52] <asyd> crashes ?
[16:31:54] <raph_ael> maybe because i'm not so goof :)
[16:31:54] <Teknix> raph_ael: i didn't realize sunfreeware was working with pkg-get
[16:31:57] <raph_ael> yes asyd
[16:32:06] <ttw> raph_ael: yeah, that's what i used to use -- but never really understood the build, upgrade, patch process with all that ... probably need to look into it again
[16:32:15] <asyd> I used for 2 years now w/o (big) problem
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[16:32:55] <ttw> ok, that's good, thanks
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[16:34:26] <raph_ael> ttw: in fact it's quite simple to make it work for the beginning
[16:38:24] <ttw> my sunos is so rusty, where does xdm (or gdm) start from ?
[16:38:31] <ttw> my sunos is so rusty, where does xdm (or gdm) start from ?
[16:38:56] <ttw> my sunos is so rusty, where does xdm (or gdm) start from ?
[16:39:37] <Cyrille> repeating it won't help.
[16:40:08] <ttw> no, just being an idiot ... by accident ... had paged up, then pasted to wrong list then copied it back
[16:40:29] <Cyrille> ah right
[16:42:11] <jbk> isn't that a mgmt style? keep repeating something in the hopes that doing it will make it true? :)
[16:42:55] <ttw> o2T7: to be honest, think you need another EU modifier but i don't know much about it -- would check your install version for patches first, then ask on X11 list
[16:43:07] <ttw> ok, i'm going to kill myself now -- sorry
[16:43:14] <cap_> jbk, I was thinking windows troubles-shooting strategy...
[16:43:54] <ttw> once upon a time i was not an idiot but age is playing with me
[16:44:08] <richlowe> gdm starts from svcs:/application/graphical-login/gdm:default
[16:44:18] <richlowe> dtlogin starts from svcs:/application/graphical-login/cde-login:default
[16:44:45] <ttw> richlowe: thanks
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[16:51:58] <ttw> o2T7: *lol* that's crazy -- glad you're working though
[16:52:13] <ttw> ok, i'm gonna leave before i get kicked off
[16:52:15] <ttw> :))
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[17:42:45] <richlowe> stevel: just the man.
[17:43:06] <stevel> hrm?
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[18:38:24] <rcheli> I click on the browser icon in my newly installed solaris 10 sparc and nothing happens, no browser shows up.  How do I go for troubleshooting this ?
[18:39:00] <jamesd> rcheli, run  /usr/sfw/bin/firefox   if not try  /usr/sfw/bin/mozilla
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[18:45:28] <rcheli> jamesd: tried it, nothing came up
[18:45:33] <rcheli> mozilla , that is
[18:45:45] <_syphilis_> you got no error?
[18:45:51] <rcheli> nope
[18:45:52] <rcheli> nothing
[18:45:55] <jamesd> well one should show up...   if you did a full install
[18:46:14] <jamesd> note that on older boxes with limited ram  mozilla and firefox can take a while to start
[18:46:51] <rcheli> this is a v440 with 32 G of ram
[18:47:26] <jamesd> ls -l /usr/sfw/bin/firefox   ;  ls -l /usr/sfw/bin/mozilla
[18:50:11] <rcheli> nothing for firefox
[18:50:12] <rcheli> ls -l /usr/sfw/bin/mozilla
[18:50:12] <rcheli> lrwxrwxrwx   1 root     root          22 Aug  9 16:43 /usr/sfw/bin/mozilla -> ../lib/mozilla/mozilla
[18:51:12] <jamesd> mozilla should start... or at least give you an error message
[18:53:05] <rcheli> hmmm
[18:53:26] <UnixTitan>  anyone had success with xlink kai on solaris?
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[19:00:56] <_william_> hi all
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[20:38:38] <pikapika> yo
[20:41:10] <jamesd> solaris kernel programming tip, just read everything in the book, relize they did it all wrong and do it better http://www.kroah.com/lkn/
[20:42:19] <richlowe> yeesh.
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[20:43:33] <PerterB> "It is written by someone who spends every day building, configuring, and installing custom kernels as part of the development process of this fun, collaborative project called Linux"
[20:43:40] <PerterB> he must be a hit at parties
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[20:44:42] <mihaic> PerterB: does that mean he's a Gentoobie?
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[20:44:58] <PerterB> quite possibly :)
[20:45:14] <mihaic> Eg: people who build "custom" crap from standard tutorials and call themselves developers :)
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[20:46:36] <sommerfeld> the whole idea of compile-time configuration strikes me as horribly archaic.
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[20:48:03] <delewis> uh, Kroah is also the guy that wrote the "Why Linux should not have a consistent driver interface" document.
[20:48:51] <richlowe> c.c -> config -> config.new -> N/A
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[20:49:03] <richlowe>   -> make (x|menu)?config
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[20:49:19] <richlowe> bah, a join/part in the middle of my carefully constructed diagram :\
[20:49:20] <sommerfeld> jamesd: generally, what I find is that the less-competant do things more at random; they are rarely consistently incompetant to serve as a guide
[20:50:31] <richlowe> well, and c.c should have been mkconf/c.c I guess.
[20:50:55] <jamesd> i guess this sums it up,  Might as well grab a free copy, I'm going to read it as I find time, who knows after a dozen years of using Linux and following LKML over the years when i'm bored I might learn something. Of course it might be interesting to compare what they say in the book with how its implemented in Solaris.
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[21:01:38] <quants> monolithic kernels should be redesigned as micro kernels
[21:01:50] <mrdeviant> why
[21:02:03] <quants> there are lotsa gains
[21:02:13] <mrdeviant> debatable.
[21:02:16] <quants> almost no tradeoffs
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[21:02:23] <mrdeviant> aside from performance.
[21:02:34] <quants> not really
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[21:03:03] <mrdeviant> at a minimum, you double the number of userspace-kernel mode switches
[21:03:06] <quants> most high performance computers are designed on microkernels
[21:03:18] <mrdeviant> really? such as?
[21:03:31] <quants> the IBM zseries mainframe
[21:03:50] <quants> vmware ESX has a custom microkernel
[21:04:16] <quants> if you want all the juice from your machine you need kernel instances
[21:04:57] <jamesd> quants, ESX is a few kernel modules on top of a  linux kernel
[21:04:57] <quants> solaris will be great for this
[21:05:14] <quants> was it GSX?
[21:05:27] <mrdeviant> zseries is hardware. if you're referring to z/OS, i don't believe that's built on top of a microkernel.
[21:05:38] <jamesd> gsx sits on any OS that it supports...  windows/linux  no matter
[21:06:11] <quants> I'll go find it for you once I get smoe time
[21:06:35] <quants> and the zseries is hardware, high performance
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[21:07:03] <mrdeviant> it's also extremely application-specific
[21:07:27] <mrdeviant> if you're doing OLTP-type workloads, it's great. if you're running floating-point calculations, it's terrible.
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[21:07:37] <andersmo> zseries machines are IO throughput machines. =)
[21:08:15] <andersmo> And I can't say that I've seen much information on z/OS kernel architecture, so it would be interesting to see some. =)
[21:10:11] <estibi> with micro|exo kernel systems buggy drivers don't crash whole system
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[21:11:58] <estibi> are you trying XEN ? xen has also microkernel design
[21:12:03] <andersmo> QNX is probably one of the more successful well-performing microkernel designs, but I'm not really aware of that many high-performance microkernel operating systems. There are a few hybrid "coulda-been-microkernels-but-degraded-into-monolithism-for-performance" systems around, though... =)
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[21:12:40] <mrdeviant> *cough*os x*cough*
[21:12:41] <quants> xen is a hypervisor, not a classical microkernel
[21:13:01] <quants> mach 3.0 you mean?
[21:13:10] <estibi> quants: yes, but is similar to microkernel
[21:13:12] <sommerfeld> and the as-yet-unreleased-as-product sun4v hypervisor is the same sort of beast.
[21:13:41] <mrdeviant> yeah, i'm really anxious to try LDoms
[21:13:53] <sommerfeld> relatively coarse-granularity resource partitioning between OS instances.
[21:14:19] <andersmo> mrdeviant: yep. I believe NT also started out as a microkernel design, but more and more stuff was heaped into kernel space as performance was insufficient? =)
[21:14:36] <quants> graphics
[21:14:49] <LeftWing> Yeah, graphics went into Ring 0.
[21:14:54] <quants> they typed it a macrokernel
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[21:16:59] <andersmo> yeah, but I think they started out even more fine-grained. At least they separated the "executive" and many other pieces of the kernel.
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[21:19:53] <sickness> yeah
[21:20:00] <sickness> I did read about that too
[21:20:24] <lasseoe> hm anyone know why snoop tells me:
[21:20:25] <lasseoe> *** Decode length error, PDU length = 1216 ***
[21:20:25] <lasseoe>                       *** NOT PRINTED - Too long value ***
[21:20:29] <lasseoe> when snooping LDAP traffic ?
[21:20:36] <sickness> it was a microkernel by desing, then degenerated to graphics and autentication in kernel space, drivers in user space, and other oddities =)
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[21:25:10] <quants> "Data centers can also use VMware Server, but it relies on a base operating system in order to run. As such, machines incur additional overheads when running the extra layer of software. But VMware Server has an advantage over ESX in that it supports a wider array of devices, such as USB connectivity and certain PCI devices"
[21:25:48] <quants> VMware ESX Server uses a stripped-down proprietary kernel (derived from work done on Stanford University's SimOS) that replaces the Linux kernel after hardware initialization.
[21:26:22] <quants>  This VMware ESX hypervisor virtualization approach provides lower overhead and better control and granularity for allocating resources (cpu time, disk bandwidth, network bandwidth, memory utilization) to virtual machines. It also increases security, thus positioning VMware ESX as an enterprise-grade product.
[21:26:33] <quants> a lot of market speak there
[21:27:44] <sickness> yeah, for what i've seen, it's just linux :P
[21:28:05] <quants> http://www.vm.ibm.com/linux/serverco.pdf
[21:28:24] <mihaic> NT was designed by DEC guys :P
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[21:28:36] <quants> myth
[21:28:40] <mihaic> Fact.
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[21:29:01] <mihaic> It also runs on Alpha btw.
[21:29:04] <mihaic> Not a coincidence.
[21:29:08] <andersmo> Microsoft did hire lots of people who had worked on operating systems at DEC.
[21:29:11] <quants> ppc too
[21:29:17] <sickness> I did read that microsoft hired the head engineer of the os2 project? or something like that?
[21:29:24] <quants> maybe IBM did it?
[21:29:29] <mihaic> VMS -> WNT
[21:29:35] <mihaic> Notice the shift there? ;)
[21:29:36] <sickness> uhm so it was the vms head engineer?
[21:29:41] <Starless_> sickness; no, the head of the VMS department of DEC; he passionately hated OS/2
[21:29:44] <mihaic> V->W, M -> N, S -> T
[21:29:48] <quants> that's crap
[21:29:55] <sickness> Starless_: yeah, so that was it
[21:29:57] <mihaic> Microsoft hired a group of developers from Digital Equipment Corporation led by Dave Cutler to build Windows NT, and many elements of the design reflect earlier DEC experience with Cutler's VMS and RSX-11. The operating system was designed to run on multiple instruction set architectures and multiple hardware platforms within each architecture. The platform dependencies are largely hidden from the rest of the system by a kernel mode module called
[21:30:29] <quants> can you explain why it ran on PPC?
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[21:31:03] <sickness> yeah, they also developed it from scratch NOT on i386, and ported later on i386, to ensure portability... or so I've read...
[21:31:11] <mihaic> It also ran on SPARC but tht doesn't mean jack shit.
[21:31:15] <quants> enough with the conspiracy nuts
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[21:31:30] <sickness> well doesn't it run on itanium too?
[21:31:36] <quants> lol
[21:31:39] <Starless_> There was a contracting deal which was why they made the ports to Alpha and PPC; I don't remember the details
[21:31:41] <mihaic> quants: there is no conspiracy. Microsoft just hired the DEC guys.
[21:31:52] <mihaic> It's a fact.
[21:31:59] <mihaic> Plenty of similar things too.
[21:32:10] <quants> your fact doesn't mean what you think it does
[21:32:39] <Starless_> The guys are the same, and some of the princibles are the same, but there's pretty much nothing of VMS in NT (as far as I know of, at least)
[21:32:46] <quants> I heard some windows admins saying Mac OS X was made by Microsoft b/c it had a nice UI
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[21:33:08] <quants> they claim it decends from xenix code
[21:33:09] <sickness> ...
[21:33:21] <Starless_> ...yeah....
[21:33:38] <sickness> well they never even remotely looked at it, it's full of nextish things ;)
[21:33:41] <mihaic> quants: it doesn't mean anything apart from the fact that the chief architect of Windows NT also happened to design RSX-11 and VMS
[21:33:49] <sickness> it doesn't take a software engineer to understand that...
[21:34:11] <quants> windows people have never heard of next
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[21:35:12] <sickness> so sad for them :)
[21:35:53] <quants> http://www.vm.ibm.com/library/
[21:35:58] <quants> zVM stuff
[21:36:03] <tsoome1> mhm
[21:36:18] <tsoome1> damit wrong window
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[21:36:58] <jamesd> mihaic, too bad they  kill most of his better ideas
[21:37:01] <jamesd> hi _
[21:37:04] <jamesd> hi __william__
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[21:38:54] <sommerfeld> mihaic: IBM->HAL was supposedly an accident, too
[21:39:01] <__william__> hi jamesb
[21:39:05] <__william__> hi jamesd
[21:39:08] <__william__> :)
[21:39:48] <sommerfeld> (but I have to say whenever I hear "predictive self-healing" I think of the scene in 2001 where HAL predicts failure of some spacecraft component...)
[21:40:24] <mihaic> I think that was the idea sommerfeld
[21:40:39] <mihaic> http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0029356717/codinghorror-20 - take a look at this book.
[21:40:51] <mihaic> It's an account of how WNT was created by the VMS guy
[21:40:53] <andersmo> # svcadm disable foo
[21:41:04] <andersmo> "I'm afraid I can't do that, root"
[21:41:15] <mihaic> Hahahahaha
[21:41:33] <mihaic> andersmo: that's more something like "sudo" spits out P
[21:41:36] <mihaic> :P
[21:41:41] <Starless_> #svcadm enable cargobaydoors :p
[21:41:57] <Starless_> :D
[21:42:26] <quants> http://publib.boulder.ibm.com/infocenter/eserver/v1r2/index.jsp?topic=/zvmcenter_5.20/zvm0_main.html
[21:42:48] <mihaic> his answer was: "wow, It took you too long to find that".
[21:43:04] <mihaic> When someone found out WNT was VMS++ :)
[21:43:18] <mihaic> 18 months in the development process lol
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[21:58:44] <tomww> re
[22:01:04] <sahafeez> anyone know of any good source of used apple hardware in the US? i need to find an xserve g4 and ebay is a dud
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[22:10:14] <onbot> commit by Cynthia McGuire:  6509757 sfx4500-disk: assertion failure in topo_add_disk (pfmri != NULL)
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[22:14:06] <quants> I had no idea apple made g4 xserves
[22:14:37] <quants> I've always hates 1u servers
[22:15:27] <jamesd> quants, are they two quiet and not whiney enough for you?
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[22:15:48] <quants> lol
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[22:31:37] <stevel> 'afternoon glynn
[22:32:08] <Tpenta> hi steve, glynn
[22:32:50] <Tpenta> steve, do you know if that gst-python bug is addressed in by the files referenced by the current spec files from svn?
[22:33:06] <Tpenta> umm i mean glynn, not steve
[22:35:02] * Tpenta pings gman
[22:35:53] <jamesd> 3d first person shooter done in javascript http://www.abrahamjoffe.com.au/ben/canvascape/
[22:36:15] <stevel> hey alan
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[22:43:42] <sommerfeld> jamesd: nothing to shoot at, though.
[22:44:43] <jmcp> morning all
[22:45:22] <_william_> morning jmcp
[22:45:26] <jmcp> gday
[22:45:27] <mihaic> sommerfeld: can't shoot at all :P
[22:45:30] <sahafeez> good afternoon
[22:45:37] <mihaic> And the textured version is sloooow
[22:50:37] <jamesd> well its only javascript and just a demo...
[22:51:22] <dlg> morning jmcp
[22:51:34] <jmcp> hi dlg
[22:55:50] <boyd> Morning, all
[22:55:56] <hile_> morning boyd
[22:56:15] <jmcp> hi boyd, hile_
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[23:02:06] <Error_404> would I know the person in charge of the campus ambassador program @ Sun?
[23:02:20] <stevel> error_404: depends :) who do you think it is?
[23:04:36] * jmcp re-caffeinates
[23:06:16] <Error_404> stevel: I'm not sure.... I just want to talk to them about extending it to my school
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[23:08:03] <Error_404> half because I want to do it, and half because my school wants to dump their sparcs in favour of linux on dells
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[23:09:36] <dlg> Error_404: which school?
[23:10:24] <hile_> jesus dude, you haven't got around to graduating yet?  Aren't you about my age?
[23:10:27] <Teknix> jmcp: around?
[23:10:42] <Error_404> dlg: university of northern BC
[23:11:09] <UnixTitan> is there a way to change the keyboard setup without running sys-unconfig?
[23:11:52] <jamesd> Error_404, its inevitble that they would want  linux on dells, its  Canada after all, they hear it will reduce there heating bill by  35%... maybe 50% if they pipe then directly into the heat return ducts.
[23:12:28] <dlg> haha
[23:12:39] <quants> it's so true
[23:12:43] <dlg> jamesd: you need an itanium to really appreciate a hot machine
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[23:13:27] <jamesd> dlg, yes but itaniums cost more and the increase isn't justified either for speed improvement or heat output.
[23:13:32] <quants> one might say the heat was EPIC
[23:14:06] <Tpenta> !seen gman
[23:14:08] <Drone> Gman is currently online in #opensolaris and last spoke on Fri 05 Jan 2007 22:51 GMT, saying ':)'.
[23:14:41] <tomww> UnixTitan: on X86 ?
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[23:15:04] <quants> lol: "This device has not been authorized as required by the rules of the Federal Communications Commission. This device is not, and may not be, offered for sale or lease, or sold or leased, until authorization is obtained."
[23:15:06] <stevel> error_404: email me your contact info, i'll fwd it to the guy who's coordinating the program
[23:15:58] <quants> I hope cingular knows the difference between $.002, and .002cents...
[23:16:08] <Error_404> stevel at sun dot com ?
[23:16:23] <quants> looks like their data network is gonna get some exercise
[23:16:25] <stevel> yup
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[23:17:20] <UnixTitan> tomww: yea
[23:18:59] <tomww> UnixTitan: look at the file /boot/solaris/bootenv.rc
[23:19:38] <tomww> is there already a key similar to: setprop kbd-type 'German'
[23:20:03] <UnixTitan> yea
[23:20:29] <UnixTitan> but I don't have what I want because I run xev and press page down or page up and its not recognized.. and I need those for when I'm in vim writing code lol
[23:20:33] <tomww> kbd -s   gives you a list of names. but know, that with recent nevada versions the name of the key changed
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[23:21:04] <tomww> you mean setting such things for X11 ?
[23:21:09] <alanc> kbd -s should also set it in eeprom for you
[23:21:25] <alanc> X11 defaults to using the kernel setting shown by kbd -l
[23:21:30] <UnixTitan> # kbd -s
[23:21:30] <UnixTitan> kbd: illegal option -- s
[23:23:18] <tomww> UnixTitan: maybe rxvt gives you the thing. with xterm and pgup/down vim on my machine doesn't recognize them, with rxvt is does.
[23:23:35] <tomww> same with irssi (my isc-client to scroll back)
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[23:24:23] <UnixTitan> I'm on gnome-terminal
[23:24:33] <UnixTitan> and on linux gnome-terminal recognized it.
[23:25:19] <UnixTitan> but I mean..
[23:26:18] <UnixTitan> http://www.pastebin.ca/313532
[23:26:29] <UnixTitan> that is what xev says about it.. so i don't think it is recognized
[23:28:12] <alanc> if kbd -s doesn't work you're on a really old version of Nevada or something before a recent S10 update
[23:28:22] <UnixTitan> I'm on S10
[23:28:27] <UnixTitan> installed not long ago
[23:28:45] <jmcp> Teknix: yeah
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[23:29:02] <alanc> oh, then you have to either use eeprom to change it or run kdmconfig, switch to Xsun, change keyboard and switch back to Xorg
[23:29:08] <Teknix> jmcp: so i have mpxio working with my infortrend arrays
[23:29:18] <jmcp> neat!
[23:29:30] <jmcp> blog it and then point me at your blog
[23:29:38] <Teknix> although i just did a cable pull test and zfs gave me a kernel panic
[23:30:05] <Teknix> maybe that's expected behavior
[23:30:20] <richlowe> such that it didn't have a path at all?
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[23:30:25] <richlowe> (in a pool without redundancy?)
[23:31:03] <Teknix> well, it looks like it's missing half the disks now.. so I'm guessing it's an array issue
[23:31:22] <Teknix> i think i need to map all the LUNs to both FC ports
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[23:34:08] <jmcp> Teknix: generally a good idea
[23:34:21] <jmcp> I'm really glad you've got mpxio working on that kit
[23:34:40] <Teknix> but it's normal for zfs to kernel panic if it loses half the disks?
[23:34:58] <jmcp> it's normal for zfs to panic if it cannot complete an IO for a pool with no redundancy
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[23:35:04] <Teknix> ok
[23:37:08] <hspaans> jmcp: that means that you should let zfs do the mirroring and load-balancing?
[23:37:15] <richlowe> write I/O
[23:37:21] <Error_404> stevel: thanks :)
[23:37:38] <richlowe> though I'm not certain what happens with reads and all the ditto blocks corrupt.
[23:38:21] <jmcp> hspaans: by all means mirror on the array, but *also* use ZFS to do mirroring
[23:38:22] <stevel> error_404: np
[23:38:58] <hspaans> jmcp: sorry I mean between the to FCs
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[23:39:44] <jmcp> yers, in that case
[23:40:24] <jmcp> yes, even
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[23:40:52] <hspaans> *g* but thanks btw
[23:41:17] <hspaans> sahafeez: syn syn
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[23:42:41] * hile_ yawns
[23:43:08] * hspaans saw btw that StarOffice 8 is now included in SXCR for free. when did that happen?
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[23:47:21] <Starless_> SXCR 54? (I have 53 and SO 7)
[23:47:34] <hspaans> jups
[23:48:54] <hspaans> it has some issues (so has b55 when reading www.opensolaris.org), but I was surpised when I saw the laptop of a collega
[23:49:29] <richlowe> Hm, when reading what about b55?
[23:49:43] <hspaans> hang on
[23:50:22] <hspaans> http://www.opensolaris.org/jive/thread.jspa?threadID=21486&tstart=0
[23:50:49] <sahafeez> hspaans; ?
[23:50:52] <alanc> 55 is on second respin - b55a was last week, b55b is being worked on now
[23:51:08] <richlowe> hspaans: ah.
[23:51:33] <hspaans> sahafeez: you where correct on the reject with amavis is quarantine also in the old version. I got worried ;-)
[23:51:39] *** Gman has quit IRC
[23:51:41] * richlowe wasn't expecting it to be peripheral userland gunk ;)
[23:51:47] *** triplah_ has quit IRC
[23:51:48] <sahafeez> ah, thank you
[23:51:59] <hspaans> sahafeez: btw everything working?
[23:52:06] <sahafeez> yes.
[23:52:11] <hspaans> excellent
[23:53:06] <sahafeez> yes, it is. i hate that prg but it is the only thing out there. between spamd (openbsd not the same as spamd linux), amavids, postfix and clamav i get very little to no spam
[23:53:22] <sahafeez> i need to add a line to reject gifs
[23:53:57] <hspaans> alanc: this has todo with the announce that b54 b55 and b56 where going to be wicked and could give trouble?
[23:54:29] <hspaans> sahafeez: *g*
[23:54:38] <alanc> I don't know about any announcement like that
[23:54:48] <richlowe> He's likely referring to harpster's mail.
[23:54:52] <richlowe> which didn't quite say *that* exactly.
[23:55:39] <alanc> 55a was due to a bunch of european keyboard layouts being broken, so much of Europe would have been unable to type, and a ZFS bug
[23:56:01] <alanc> 55b is for one of those nasty reasons we can't talk about without the lawyers cutting out our tongues
[23:56:35] <richlowe> not causing soffice to function? or should we expect a 55c for that? :)
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[23:57:31] <alanc> I don't know what's up with the soffice bug bart hit
[23:57:43] <hspaans> alanc: like the fault with zoneadm in 11/06 beta that is going to cost Sun money? ;-)
[23:58:15] <alanc> haven't heard of that at all
[23:58:25] <hspaans> keep it that way
[23:59:07] <alanc> not hard in a company of 30 thousand people - far too much happening for any one person to know it al
[23:59:08] <alanc> l





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