December 31, 2006 
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December 31, 2006 [00:00:38] <Error_404> cneira, i don't really think linux is suitable for production, so that'd be a no [00:01:20] <iakovz> cp -r /dev/ /a/ takes ages.. :F [00:01:21] <Error_404> but jerkyness aside, i'm relatively sure brandz is not considered "ready for production" [00:04:31] <cneira> Error_404 thanks , but i mainly using the zone to port some apps from sco to linux . [00:07:06] <elektronkind> iakovz: it'taking a long time because your /proc file is probably too big. delete it and your system will run faster. [00:08:44] * elektronkind realizes iakovz was actually serious [00:08:46] <elektronkind> uh, man [00:09:11] <elektronkind> devfsadm -r /a [00:09:22] <Error_404> yeah, that's the way to do it [00:09:29] <elektronkind> cp of /dev is not the way to do it. [00:09:54] <elektronkind> things aren't /that/ simple in the /dev tree [00:10:22] <Error_404> i knew there was an official way [00:10:43] <elektronkind> he's probably blown his system up by now [00:10:52] <elektronkind> expect a ping timeout any minute now [00:11:36] <iakovz> elektronkind, thank for the "-r" [00:11:49] <iakovz> and i 'v told already that cp is shithead. [00:12:01] <iakovz> elektronkind, ;) [00:12:22] <iakovz> i'm on "big brother" while tuning my craptop [00:12:42] <PerterB> cp doesn't know anything about device nodes, so it would make some pretty big files in /dev/rdsk [00:13:04] <iakovz> well, there are symlinks [00:13:09] <iakovz> actually ;) [00:13:24] <elektronkind> not to mention /dev/kmem ;) [00:14:34] <iakovz> hm, fuck! why i am not seeing "updating boot archive" when i reboot from safemode [00:14:44] <iakovz> elektronkind, same result with devfsadm. [00:15:14] <iakovz> it simply reboots after the banner "SunOS...Use is subject..terms.<reboot>" [00:17:02] <iakovz> uhm, very strange devfsadm *do* update the links from c0d0s0 etc to the correct values for the pci@.. stuff [00:17:08] <elektronkind> boot back into safe mode and 'bootadm -r /a update-archive' [00:17:17] <elektronkind> or whatever the -r option for bootadm is [00:18:09] <iakovz> elektronkind, thanks again. wander why is didnt happened automaticaly 'cause i remeber that it was so .. [00:18:41] <iakovz> err, s/is/it [00:19:30] <iakovz> didnt helped too. bad day definitely :) [00:19:49] <astinus> Does anyone know if ZFS issues with Live Upgrade are a known bug? [00:20:12] <iakovz> guys, is it possible to make kernel produce more debug/verbose output from command line in GRUB? [00:20:18] <astinus> Specifically, filesystem/local fails to start after LU; it claims 'zfs mount -a' fails because /dionysus is already mounted. Problem was fixed by exporting the zpool, then importing it again [00:21:35] <Error_404> well that's true of zfs in general, it's not a bug [00:21:57] <astinus> Error_404: there's a fix? :) [00:22:08] <Error_404> yes... not thinking of it as a bug [00:22:21] <Error_404> iakovz, add -v to the kernel line [00:22:37] <astinus> Error_404: so each time I live upgrade, I need to reimport my pools? [00:22:54] <Error_404> astinus, export them before you upgrade *shrug* [00:23:05] <astinus> fair 'nuf [00:23:06] <Error_404> or bfu [00:24:51] <Error_404> astinus, you can file a bug and mark it oss-bite-size [00:25:18] <Error_404> all that's likely to happen is that someone'll fix it so LU will export the pool before reboot [00:25:38] <astinus> imho, the export and subsequent re-import should be automated [00:25:47] <astinus> since billions of svcs depend on filesystem/local [00:25:57] <Doc> billions? [00:26:02] <astinus> well, 15-20 [00:26:11] <astinus> which in turn depend on others [00:26:23] <astinus> in short, if you LU at the moment, your system is *broken* and that sucks [00:26:30] <Doc> so not billions? [00:27:23] <delewis> astinus, just remove the directory, and re-import the filesystem [00:27:27] <delewis> your system is only temporarily broken. [00:27:38] <astinus> just frustrating :) [00:27:48] <astinus> took me 2-3 minutes to work out WTF happened [00:30:28] <FireflyST> Hey, can someone tell me where to get scg, and if it works to rip music from CDs using an IDE drive? [00:30:28] <delewis> Doc, do you know of any public docs that contain implementation details of hardware, like an E25K, E4500, etc.? (ex. how the system implements cache coherency and so fourth) [00:30:59] *** Starless_ has quit IRC [00:31:04] <delewis> I can't seem to find anything that technical from SunSolve. [00:31:08] <FireflyST> I installed Grip and apparently it needs scg [00:32:57] <iakovz> gotcha!!! [00:33:38] <iakovz> i'v shot it's "verbosse" screen with my digital camera :)) [00:33:45] <iakovz> what r night. [00:34:04] <iakovz> new debugging techinqe- photo-debuging [00:36:09] *** Sieghard[laptop] has quit IRC [00:36:19] <Doc> delewis: hmm... not aware of any that are public, no [00:36:43] <Doc> there are some really good documents on it (may your head hurt after just reading the title!) but they are all internal [00:36:49] <delewis> Doc, actually, I found the E25K "Overview" -- it's not bad, but the majority of other hardware doesn't have anything that technical. [00:37:02] <delewis> it's mostly "Installation" guides and so fourth. [00:37:03] <delewis> Doc, ah. [00:37:21] <Auralis> the actual tech stuff is in the architectual whitepapers [00:37:25] <Doc> s/may/make/ [00:40:14] *** Kmays has joined #opensolaris [00:40:17] *** loren has joined #opensolaris [00:40:56] *** nbkk6fo_ has joined #opensolaris [00:40:56] *** nbkk6fo__ has quit IRC [00:42:52] <delewis> Auralis, hmm, yeah, the architectural white papers look OK. [00:44:22] *** loren_ has joined #opensolaris [00:44:55] *** loren_ has quit IRC [00:47:39] <Error_404> I'm suprised sun went with gnome [00:48:07] <delewis> Error_404, there weren't a lot of other solutions at the time. [00:48:10] <Error_404> apparantly the KDE guys *really* seem to want to be integrated [00:48:19] <delewis> Gnome was about the only free desktop environment around. [00:48:26] * Error_404 just noticed the solaris optimized builds [00:48:33] <nrubsig> delewis: that's not really true. [00:48:35] <delewis> Error_404, Qt, and thus, KDE, weren't free when Sun decided to go with Gnome. [00:48:49] <Error_404> weren't they dual licensed w/ gpl? [00:48:57] <delewis> Error_404, not at the time. [00:49:04] <delewis> it was under a "non-free" Trolltech license. [00:49:11] <delewis> the dual-licensing came *much* later. [00:50:09] <delewis> I'm not sure if it's dual-licensed or not. Last time, I checked, they just came up with a new license. [00:50:20] <delewis> that's supposedly more "free" by the terms of the FSF. [00:51:31] <delewis> ah, nevermind, it is under the GPL now. [00:51:33] <Error_404> qt4 is gpl [00:51:49] <delewis> yes, but again, that wasn't the case when Sun chose Gnome :-) [00:52:08] <delewis> it's not just coincidence that all of the major UNIX vendors decided to go with Gnome, you know. [00:52:20] *** sartek has quit IRC [00:52:27] <delewis> Sun, IBM, HP, etc. [00:52:58] *** sartek has joined #opensolaris [00:53:21] *** GoodKarma has quit IRC [00:53:31] <nrubsig> delewis: yeah, but IBM and HP offer other options. Sun does not. [00:53:52] <nrubsig> delewis: for europe an esp. germany IBM is smart enougth to focus on KDE [00:54:11] <nrubsig> they'll be riped into pieces by the gov if they won't offer kde [00:54:22] <TFKyle> nrubsig: why's that? [00:54:40] <nrubsig> TFKyle: it's called "focus on _european_ opensource" [00:54:47] <nrubsig> I am not kidding. [00:54:54] <delewis> nrubsig, I think all IBM and HP have done with alternate desktop environments (by 'alternate' -- "other than CDE") is create packages and throw it on their media. [00:55:09] <nrubsig> delewis: erm, no. [00:55:16] <delewis> Sun has put a lot of weight behind Gnome, in comparison to what IBM and HP have done with alternate desktop environments. [00:55:22] <nrubsig> delewis: they're actively doing bugfixing and ingetration. [00:55:32] <TFKyle> nrubsig: and gnome doesn't have many European devs? [00:55:46] <delewis> nrubsig, the Gnome I received with my AIX 5.3 media was pretty shitty :-) [00:56:05] <nrubsig> TFKyle: please don't ask me for a detailed explanation. I am not allowed to AFAIK. [00:56:21] <TFKyle> nrubsig: ok, sorry [00:56:58] *** iakovz has quit IRC [00:58:32] *** GoodKarma has joined #opensolaris [01:05:09] *** loren has quit IRC [01:07:57] <Error_404> that's cute, qt's build process doesn't care about $CXXFLAGS [01:08:10] <_syphilis_> error: that's because you didn't rtfm :-) [01:09:47] <Error_404> filthy lies [01:11:03] *** iakovz has joined #opensolaris [01:11:11] <iakovz> hi [01:12:48] <iakovz> http://iakovz.googlepages.com/xxx.jpg [01:13:01] *** mega has quit IRC [01:13:13] <iakovz> this is what it says and reboots. i'm lost. [01:16:18] <iakovz> Error_404, may be it's impossible not to boot first time on the installation system and boot from another machine? [01:19:33] <estibi> iakovz: you can't change the machine without rebuilding boot ramdisk (at least in nevada) [01:20:02] *** ibs has left #opensolaris [01:21:31] *** qdk has joined #opensolaris [01:22:05] *** cneira has left #opensolaris [01:22:31] <delewis> heh, these architectural whitepapers are gems. [01:22:39] <Auralis> told ya [01:22:55] <iakovz> estibi, is it possible to rebuild boot ramdisk from failsafe? [01:23:06] <iakovz> i do can boot into failsafe. [01:23:39] <estibi> iakovz: yes it is possible [01:24:22] <iakovz> estibi, could you tell how? bootadm update-archive? [01:24:37] <estibi> iakovz: something like that [01:25:26] <iakovz> estibi, what does it mean when i *only* get this message from the system and it reboots - http://iakovz.googlepages.com/xxx.jpg [01:26:57] <estibi> iakovz: i guess your kernel do PANIC and reboot becouse it can't mount ROOT filesystem [01:28:01] <iakovz> i'v already checked from the fail safe /dev/dsk/c0d0s0 [my root] it is equal with one i get from fail-safe [01:28:17] <iakovz> what else controls ROOT mounts in solaris? [01:28:38] <estibi> you may add the kernel parameter (to grub) to switch into debugger after panic [01:30:13] <estibi> iakovz: if you are in FAILSAFE mode, try rebuild your boot_ramdisk [01:30:14] <richlowe> movement: ah. [01:31:31] <estibi> you should add ALTERNATIVE_ROOT, or something like this [01:31:42] <estibi> to bootadm ... [01:32:27] <iakovz> thanks, i'll try. [01:32:28] <iakovz> .. [01:32:54] *** AbeFroman has joined #opensolaris [01:34:33] *** Gman has joined #opensolaris [01:37:56] <iakovz> O-M-F-G! [01:38:35] <iakovz> the FIRST thing that MUST be checked in such a situation is /BOOT/SOLARIS/BOOTENV.RC [01:38:46] <iakovz> ..SETPROP BOOTPATH=... [01:39:27] * iakovz wonders if noone here uses this file. [01:40:46] <Error_404> we all just install things without hackery [01:41:03] <iakovz> it's 3 AM now i can have some sleep :) [01:41:50] <estibi> :) [01:42:09] <iakovz> i earned it [01:42:32] <Error_404> good job, you were pissing around on the 'puter till 3am [01:42:39] <iakovz> :) [01:44:39] <iakovz> Error_404, sorry for my annoyancethis night. it's probably 'cause i already had such a problem and forgot the solution. [01:44:41] <estibi> iakovz: when i changed PCI slot for my scsi adapter, i had the same problem [01:45:06] *** Sieghard has joined #opensolaris [01:45:31] <Error_404> meh, it's all good [01:45:32] <iakovz> rememberance took to much time [01:45:46] <estibi> setprop bootpath /pci@0,0/pci-ide@1f,1/ide@0/cmdk@0,0:a [01:45:55] <estibi> i thing this is the point [01:46:02] <iakovz> yes, you are right [01:49:23] <iakovz> as usual the solution came when i read man page on eeprom :) [01:49:57] <Error_404> ugh... holy pageouts batman [01:52:30] <Error_404> so, building Qt with optimization options turned up, on a laptop with a 5400rpm drive... [01:52:34] <Error_404> not so quick [01:53:09] <iakovz> haha [01:53:20] <iakovz> i tryed to build Qt on my craptop too [01:53:30] <iakovz> it failed at the end. [01:53:53] <iakovz> of build process with strange compilation error [i used gcc IIRC] [01:53:56] <Error_404> CC is curently eating 80MB of RS [01:53:56] <Error_404> i'm sure it'd be fine with gcc, because gcc's idea of optimization is still about 60% slower than studio's [01:54:09] <Error_404> err, 800mb of rss [01:54:16] <iakovz> i'd better build with studio.. [01:55:37] <Error_404> studio evidently just generates fantastically optimized code [01:56:33] <Stric> Hm.. we have a zfs/nfs server that just locked up.. I've got a dump from it.. how to figure out what happened? [01:56:49] <Stric> snv_53, sparc [01:58:18] *** edwardocallaghan has joined #opensolaris [01:58:39] *** Gman has quit IRC [02:00:06] *** GoodKarma has quit IRC [02:03:26] *** Fish- has quit IRC [02:03:59] *** qdk has quit IRC [02:04:45] *** simford has joined #OpenSolaris [02:04:50] *** iakovz has quit IRC [02:05:03] *** TFKyle has quit IRC [02:05:06] *** GoodKarma has joined #opensolaris [02:06:01] *** Arnald has quit IRC [02:06:53] <Error_404> hmm... wonder why ube crapped out on itself [02:11:18] <Error_404> or what exactly ube is for that matter [02:13:07] <_syphilis_> ube is the compiler, iirc [02:14:42] *** jteo has quit IRC [02:15:59] <Error_404> apparantly it's the code generator [02:16:04] <Error_404> whatever that means [02:18:50] <estibi> ok, i have to sleep [02:18:53] <estibi> bye [02:19:12] *** estibi has left #opensolaris [02:19:13] *** estibi has joined #opensolaris [02:26:08] *** Triskelios has quit IRC [02:26:35] *** Triskelios has joined #opensolaris [02:28:10] <Error_404> oh, so apparantly qrichtext.cpp is over 10,000 lines long & it exhausts most every compiler's virtual memory space [02:31:06] *** schily___ has joined #opensolaris [02:43:46] *** sahafeez has joined #opensolaris [02:44:07] *** Sieghard has quit IRC [02:47:54] * steleman pokes nrubsig [02:48:36] *** schily__ has quit IRC [02:50:19] <Error_404> quite the testement to solaris, the failed build of qt didn't segfault or nothing [02:50:36] <Error_404> it just exited gracefully [02:50:44] <Error_404> steleman, btw, i sent you an email about integrating kde [02:52:23] *** edwardocallaghan has joined #opensolaris [02:52:31] <edwardocallaghan> Hi all [02:52:55] <edwardocallaghan> Is there any new builds of Solaris coming soon? [02:53:11] <nrubsig> edwardocallaghan: It's silvester. [02:53:15] <jamesd_> not till mid january at least... sun is on holiday [02:53:22] <nrubsig> Sun has something like vacation and holidays. [02:53:23] <Error_404> Sun's tired [02:53:26] <Error_404> it needs a nap [02:53:37] <nrubsig> but they're working on getting rid of this issue. [02:53:49] <edwardocallaghan> lol [02:53:50] <Error_404> it's been working so hard.... time for sleep [02:54:03] <edwardocallaghan> Is it a Sunny holiday ? [02:54:20] <jamesd_> not in the u.s. its a snowy rainy holiday [02:54:32] <edwardocallaghan> Any dates on when this issue will be resolved ? [02:54:52] *** jsubl2 has joined #opensolaris [02:55:27] <edwardocallaghan> I was wondering if there is a more Desktop orientated Solaris distro around ? [02:55:44] <delewis> I'm not quite sure what you mean. [02:55:49] <edwardocallaghan> ps Gnome sucks and should be in a garden [02:55:50] <jamesd_> nexenta makes kde easy to install. [02:56:26] <delewis> I don't think Gnome is *that* bad. [02:56:43] <edwardocallaghan> Back of the garden [02:56:47] <delewis> I'm fairly lax when it comes to desktop environments. As long as I have basic windowing features, I'm satisfied. [02:56:58] <Error_404> jamesd_, but then you have the ugly gnu userspace [02:57:07] <edwardocallaghan> 512mb of ram and KDE how so much more to offer [02:57:15] * delewis shrugs [02:57:20] *** uebayasi has joined #opensolaris [02:57:23] <delewis> I've got to 2GB in my SB1000, and JDS is pretty fast. [02:57:42] <edwardocallaghan> Yea I got a Blade 2000 [02:57:53] <delewis> and I've still got a gig of memory on the free list, with Mozilla, acroread, gnome-terminal, Sun Studio IDE open. [02:57:54] <jamesd_> delewis, but why souldn't a desktop be fast on dual 750's and 2GB of ram... [02:57:59] <edwardocallaghan> That's what I am going to use as my new desktop [02:58:21] <delewis> edwardocallaghan, just make sure you have a decent framebuffer if you want to watch video. [02:58:24] <edwardocallaghan> I got dual 1ghz [02:58:30] <delewis> an Elite3D isn't exactly going to cut it :-) [02:58:39] <Gr|ffous> how do you measure free memory like that? [02:58:44] <edwardocallaghan> I got a XVR-500 [02:58:48] <delewis> Gr|ffous, vmstat [02:58:54] <delewis> edwardocallaghan, nice. [02:58:55] <edwardocallaghan> prstat ? [02:59:02] <delewis> you should be able to do full-screen OpenGL with that. [02:59:06] [02:59:52] <delewis> Gr|ffous, vmstat output will be quite "misleading" if you have a ZFS pool around, though. [02:59:59] <delewis> it does heavily buffering in the kernel's memory space. [03:00:13] <Gr|ffous> yeah, I remember reading that [03:00:24] <delewis> my Ultra 2, which serves as my fileserver, and thus has a lot of pools, rarely has 100-300MB on the free list. [03:00:36] <delewis> and it has 1.5GB of memory. [03:00:51] <Gr|ffous> I'm using to 'free' from you know where... I'm still not clear on what the free colum actually represents using vmstat. cache? [03:00:56] * steleman pokes Error_404 [03:00:59] <Error_404> hey [03:01:18] <steleman> Error: hi. :-) finally i can make the connectoin between IRC handle and real person :-) [03:01:24] <delewis> Gr|ffous, it represents the amount in KB of memory on the free list. [03:01:46] <Error_404> :) [03:01:49] <edwardocallaghan> So I should install Nexenta on my blade ? [03:01:58] <delewis> does Nexenta run on SPARC? [03:02:01] <delewis> (I don't think it does) [03:02:03] <jamesd_> nope [03:02:10] <edwardocallaghan> :O [03:02:13] <edwardocallaghan> :( [03:02:14] <delewis> you're sort of out of luck then. [03:02:17] <jamesd_> edwardocallaghan, you didn't say you had a sparc [03:02:24] *** estibi has quit IRC [03:02:25] <Auralis> if you get nexenta working on the blade you are realy good [03:02:32] <delewis> there's not that many distributions, other than Solaris, if you're on SPARC. [03:02:49] <edwardocallaghan> Well a Blade 2000 is a SPARC [03:02:59] <edwardocallaghan> You can't get a x86 version can you? [03:03:08] *** rachel_ has joined #opensolaris [03:03:11] * nrubsig thinks the ksh93 math stuff has become too large... =:-) [03:04:04] <edwardocallaghan> If the distro is open, can't I just recomplie it all (days) [03:04:30] <edwardocallaghan> Then I can make it available [03:04:46] *** darkcmd has joined #opensolaris [03:04:55] <edwardocallaghan> Aurora SPARC Linux :/ [03:05:10] <edwardocallaghan> It would not be a great thing to install would it? [03:05:42] *** cwebber has joined #opensolaris [03:06:04] <jlc> how do you check a core file [03:06:09] *** trs81 has quit IRC [03:06:11] <delewis> for? [03:06:19] *** trs81 has joined #opensolaris [03:06:20] <_syphilis_> 'check'? [03:06:27] *** Andrew____ has joined #opensolaris [03:06:41] *** trs81 has quit IRC [03:06:42] <jlc> yeah like, there is a "core" file and you can run some command to see what it is from [03:06:49] <delewis> 'file' [03:07:00] *** yongsun has joined #opensolaris [03:07:19] <jlc> yeah, i thought there was some other dump command or something that does some kind of trace [03:07:19] <delewis> mdb can pull that information out, too. [03:07:24] <jlc> i need to know more :) [03:07:25] <_syphilis_> pstack [03:07:33] <jlc> pstack thats the one i was thinking, [03:07:34] <jlc> thanks [03:07:39] * delewis mutters [03:07:54] <edwardocallaghan> delewis: Hi [03:08:33] <edwardocallaghan> What would be the best thing to install on my new Blade 2000 as a Workstation(stable)/Desktop(fun) [03:08:57] <Auralis> solaris [03:09:11] <edwardocallaghan> I would like to try XGL Linux tricks on it to compare performance for fun [03:09:44] <Auralis> its a sparc, linux will run like shit on it [03:09:49] <Auralis> especialy x [03:09:52] <edwardocallaghan> I don't regard that is very stable though [03:09:53] <delewis> sorry, but you're on the wrong architecture for that sort of thing. [03:10:36] <edwardocallaghan> Yea the main reason I got it for was Mathematica [03:10:47] <darkcmd> Auralis: why would it run bad? [03:10:56] <delewis> darkcmd, lots of reasons. [03:10:57] <jamesd_> gcc sucks on sparc [03:11:04] <delewis> the most obvious being gcc code generation for SPARC [03:11:16] <delewis> and also the fact that Linux won't take advantage of lots of features SPARC systems have to offer. [03:11:21] <jamesd_> linux sucks on sparc, possibly because of the previous reason [03:11:21] <edwardocallaghan> addressing / how the kernel does its things ect... [03:11:24] <delewis> like MPO [03:11:29] <delewis> and multiple page sizes [03:11:34] <Auralis> gcc on sparc is crap, sparc smp is badly borked, gfx card rivers are barebone basic when present at all etc etc [03:11:53] <darkcmd> I see [03:11:57] <delewis> I found it entertaining that Linux didn't even have MPSS support :-) [03:11:58] <nrubsig> delewis: MPSS is not used much in Solaris either. [03:12:13] <nrubsig> delewis: ksh93 and Xsun are the only "major" users in Solaris [03:12:14] <edwardocallaghan> MPSS ? [03:12:16] <delewis> nrubsig, but you can use it. There's a distinction. [03:12:22] <delewis> edwardocallaghan, multiple page-size selection [03:12:41] <darkcmd> Is Xsun for SPARC only? [03:12:49] <edwardocallaghan> ksh93 ? [03:12:55] <nrubsig> edwardocallaghan: multiple page size support, e.g. 8k, 64k, 512k, 4M, 32K, 256M etc. MMU pages [03:12:56] <jlc> xsun is on x86 too [03:12:58] <delewis> and I can see why Solaris, itself, wouldn't make extensive use of MPSS. [03:13:07] <nrubsig> edwardocallaghan: ksh93 uses 64k pages for stack [03:13:10] <delewis> that's something the user should decide after evalulating application performance on his or her hardware. [03:13:11] * steleman wonders why my A20P ThinkPad Pentium-III 700MHz runs faster than the Blade 2000 with 2x1.2GHz US-III [03:13:19] *** bobbyz has quit IRC [03:13:26] <PerterB> I thought things like Orackle shared memory segments used MPSS extensively [03:13:32] <nrubsig> delewis: for Xsun it makes sense [03:13:39] <delewis> nrubsig, yes [03:13:44] <delewis> but not much else :-) [03:13:45] *** trs81 has joined #opensolaris [03:13:51] <nrubsig> delewis: and nested shell scripts can make use of a larger stack, that's why we turned it on for ksh93 [03:13:52] <edwardocallaghan> steleman:Really ? [03:13:53] <delewis> vi with 4MB stack size :-) [03:13:58] *** Starless_ has joined #opensolaris [03:13:59] <steleman> yup [03:14:08] <nrubsig> delewis: and we finally can dig-out all the kernel bugs with ksh93 [03:14:10] <nrubsig> =:-) [03:14:15] <edwardocallaghan> What's faster ? [03:14:40] <nrubsig> edwardocallaghan: a larger page size is faster [03:14:48] <nrubsig> edwardocallaghan: less MMU overhead [03:15:00] <delewis> it depends on the workload [03:15:08] *** Mazon is now known as mazon [03:15:38] <edwardocallaghan> Mathematica should be fast right ? [03:16:11] <steleman> edwardocallaghan: for example MySQL is twice as fast on the thinkpad than on the blade 2000 [03:16:29] <steleman> edwardocallaghan: and i built MySQL with Studio 11 and -xO5 + insane [03:16:31] *** Starless_ has left #opensolaris [03:16:34] <delewis> steleman, throw oracle on your thinkpad :-) [03:16:47] <edwardocallaghan> http://www.wolfram.com/ [03:16:52] <steleman> delewis: this thinkpad is a cholesterol-free zone :-) [03:17:05] <delewis> steleman, my point was, the Blade 2000 would handle it better. [03:17:11] <darkcmd> someone told me I was stupid for getting an Ultra 2 [03:17:22] <Error_404> edwardocallaghan, is there even a mathematica build for sparc/linux [03:17:25] <dvorak> ultra2 is indeed pretty horrible [03:17:34] <Error_404> i'm relatively certain there isn't [03:17:35] <edwardocallaghan> Yes, yes there is [03:17:44] <darkcmd> I got it to mess around with [03:17:45] <edwardocallaghan> They make great software [03:17:49] <delewis> I've only used Mathematica for Solaris/SPARC. [03:18:00] <steleman> delewis: maybe it would (i am not certain) but that's comparing apples to oranges [03:18:23] * jamesd_ has only used mathematica on a SGI indy r5k 150mhz [03:18:35] <dvorak> I've only used it on a next [03:18:35] <edwardocallaghan> http://www.wolfram.com/products/mathematica/platforms/ [03:19:02] <delewis> I've got AIX and Solaris/AMD64 media around here, too. [03:19:04] <darkcmd> How are the BSDs on the SPARC? [03:19:17] <delewis> darkcmd, sad. [03:19:34] <darkcmd> I like OpenBSD quite a bit. [03:19:37] <delewis> the various free BSD variants are quite primitive compared to modern Unixes, especially Solaris. [03:19:38] <edwardocallaghan> Ah yes my next question [03:19:41] <Error_404> i've only used it on x86/linux and solaris/sparc [03:19:44] <delewis> darkcmd, OpenBSD doesn't even have SMP support for SPARC. [03:19:46] <Error_404> edp, oh, wtf? [03:19:51] <Error_404> check that page again [03:20:06] <Error_404> linux/ia64, linux/amd64 and linux/x86 are the only linsucks platforms supported [03:20:15] <nrubsig> delewis: and niagara support for *bsd works... now ? [03:20:15] <edwardocallaghan> BSD and Solaris should join back up [03:20:24] <edwardocallaghan> As that's where Solaris roots are right? [03:20:31] <delewis> edwardocallaghan, *no* [03:20:35] <_syphilis_> no, solaris is svr4 [03:20:36] <edwardocallaghan> lol [03:20:39] <delewis> Solaris is SVR4 [03:20:40] <nrubsig> edwardocallaghan: solaris has it's roots in SysV [03:20:41] <darkcmd> What about the BSD varients on x86? and amd/64? [03:20:45] <_syphilis_> sunso4 was bsd + some bits that became sysv [03:20:48] <delewis> SunOS was BSD4.2 [03:20:55] <edwardocallaghan> Yes [03:20:58] <delewis> with various BSD4.3 pieces backported, IIRC. [03:21:01] <edwardocallaghan> That's it [03:21:51] <edwardocallaghan> But BSD has some very good points going for it [03:22:11] <delewis> edwardocallaghan, not really, it's quite primitive as I said. [03:22:26] <delewis> the various free BSD variants were all fairly late to implement threading and async IO, for example. [03:22:28] <edwardocallaghan> Surely if the developers and code all came back together under one roof then that would be good? [03:22:37] <delewis> and most of them have lacked SMP support only till recently, and only for x86. [03:23:03] <delewis> edwardocallaghan, AT&T took most of the development edge with SVR4. [03:23:08] <_syphilis_> edwardocallaghan: did you notice that the 4BSD forks couldn't even agree on a single implementation? [03:23:21] <_syphilis_> i doubt you're going to have much luck persuading them all to work on an svr4 [03:23:42] <darkcmd> I've run Solaris Nevada on x86 once, it wasn't bad at all [03:24:15] <Error_404> i'm using it right now [03:25:04] <Error_404> attempting to get qt to compile [03:25:11] <darkcmd> Error_404: on x86? [03:25:14] <Error_404> yes [03:25:21] <darkcmd> running good? [03:25:28] <Error_404> yeah, runs great [03:25:55] <edwardocallaghan> Well I am still learning this history, I was only a kid [03:26:25] <delewis> I've got a copy of "The Design of the UNIX Operating System" written by Maurice J. Bach. When the text was written, it was pretty apparent that SVR4 was way ahead of BSD in terms of features. [03:26:43] <delewis> you know, something had to prompt Sun to get off of SunOS. [03:26:50] <edwardocallaghan> So how would a Blade2000 compare to a Ultra 20M2 for Mathematica ? [03:27:00] <_syphilis_> well, sun wrote half of sysv ;-) [03:27:20] <delewis> edwardocallaghan, an Ultra 20 would blow it away. [03:27:26] <jamesd_> the ultra20m2 would be faster since its brandnew and the blade2000 is not. [03:27:31] <delewis> you're comparing 6-year-old hardware against a modern system. [03:27:33] *** nrubsig has quit IRC [03:27:41] <delewis> that's not exactly fair, you know. [03:28:00] <edwardocallaghan> How about a Ultra25 to a 20M2 ? [03:28:13] <darkcmd> When did the Ultra 2 come out? [03:28:17] <delewis> the Ultra 20 would still blow it away. [03:28:20] <jamesd_> the u20m2 is faster.. since the u20 is dual core. [03:28:22] <delewis> darkcmd, '96. [03:28:25] <edwardocallaghan> I was trying to compare x86 to SPARC [03:28:29] *** nrubsig has joined #opensolaris [03:28:30] *** ChanServ sets mode: +o nrubsig [03:28:31] <delewis> edwardocallaghan, don't. [03:28:40] <delewis> apples and oranges [03:28:43] <nrubsig> chatzilla crash no. 890 [03:28:50] <edwardocallaghan> ? [03:28:50] <delewis> different workloads will perform differently on different architectures. [03:29:18] <edwardocallaghan> Yes I a specifying the workload [03:29:22] <steleman> edwardocallaghan: the rule of thumb in comparing sparc vs x86 is: sparc would run comparable to x86 if it were at the same clock speed :-P [03:29:42] <delewis> edwardocallaghan, and that all depends upon whether Mathematica is taking advantage of all the features SPARC has to offer. [03:30:21] <darkcmd> With OpenSolaris did sun have to change much of their code, or get rid of it because of licensing issues? [03:30:26] <edwardocallaghan> But I though some of you have Mathematica running ? [03:30:51] <Error_404> darkcmd, i'm relatively certain that's what the closed_bins are for [03:31:03] <steleman> edwardocallaghan: opteron will beat the living lights out of sparc with mathematica. there's nothing sparc can do [03:31:08] <delewis> SPARC would probably outperform x86 on calculations that require extremely high precision floating-point. [03:31:20] <delewis> especially, if SSE/SSE2 weren't being used. [03:31:23] <edwardocallaghan> I am looking benchmarks [03:31:32] <edwardocallaghan> *for [03:31:34] <delewis> then you'd have to do with Intel's 80-bit floating point implementation. [03:31:41] <delewis> s/do/deal/ [03:32:03] <edwardocallaghan> Ah next, what about Blender [03:32:16] <steleman> delewis: quad-precision math on sparc is done in software not hardware. [03:32:31] <darkcmd> From what I've heard rendering tends to do better on RISC [03:32:58] <nrubsig> steleman: but SPARC FP registers can do qp-math, right ? [03:33:07] <delewis> yes, they can. [03:33:10] <steleman> yes [03:33:21] <steleman> but they never do. [03:33:30] <nrubsig> ?! [03:33:34] <steleman> its always done in software [03:33:47] <edwardocallaghan> So from what I understand your better off with a SPARC for the two ? [03:33:47] <nrubsig> steleman: traps ? [03:34:14] <steleman> yup [03:34:23] <nrubsig> steleman: is all qp-math stuff done via traps ? [03:34:34] <steleman> yes as far as i know [03:34:37] <nrubsig> ugh [03:34:42] <nrubsig> steleman: this is bad. [03:34:45] <nrubsig> very bad. [03:35:04] <nrubsig> WHat about fujitsu SPARC64 ? [03:35:15] <steleman> well. sparc FP is not exactly stellar either. which is why studio has the nifty flags to convert fp to double [03:35:22] <nrubsig> steleman: but there could a hardware implementation ? [03:35:34] <steleman> dunno never saw a fujitsu sparc [03:35:53] <steleman> nrubsig: quad precision is implemented in hardware it's just never used. [03:36:04] <steleman> (meaning in sparcv9) [03:36:05] <delewis> steleman, traps are only used if the application is 32-bit [03:36:14] <delewis> documentation indicates on sparcv9 its hardware [03:36:21] <steleman> delewis:nope [03:36:32] <edwardocallaghan> What does my dual 1GHz 2GB RAM dual 73GB 10k disk compare to in the x86 world ? [03:36:36] <delewis> http://docs.sun.com/app/docs/doc/816-1681/6m83631ld?a=view [03:36:53] <delewis> they don't mention traps being used for v9 and v9a [03:37:09] <delewis> and this would make sense [03:37:10] <nrubsig> steleman: WTF is this implemented in HARDWARE and then not used [03:37:11] <steleman> delewis: its always nice to read documentation. tells you nothing abour reality. [03:37:11] *** bbtm has joined #opensolaris [03:38:12] <darkcmd> how do I go about changing my default shell [03:38:21] <darkcmd> I'm just starting to learn Solaris [03:38:24] <steleman> nrubsig: i have no idea why they don't use hardware quad precision [03:38:43] <nrubsig> delewis: / steleman: does a UltraSPARC-2/3/4/N1 CPU execute |long double| math in hardware or not ? [03:39:10] <steleman> nrubsig: ultrasparc2/3/4 does double precision in hardware, quad precision in software [03:39:35] <steleman> dont know about T1/T2 [03:40:02] <Error_404> darkcmd, it's in /etc/passwd [03:41:04] *** nbkk6fo__ has joined #opensolaris [03:41:05] *** nbkk6fo_ has quit IRC [03:41:18] *** jlc has quit IRC [03:41:36] <edwardocallaghan> The system seems faster then my P4 2.6 [03:42:31] <Error_404> yes, well [03:42:40] <Error_404> p4 is kinna a shitty chip anyways [03:42:47] <Error_404> 25 stage pipeline my ass [03:42:55] <delewis> nrubsig, looks like it. [03:43:17] <edwardocallaghan> Well my Blade2000 has a good spec (higher end) so how can the Ultra20M2 be that much faster then my Blade ? [03:43:18] <delewis> just disassembled a C program I wrote quickly and its calling a subroutine when compiled with -xarch=v9a [03:43:19] <dvorak> the p4 is very likely faster, unless you can actually use both cpus, and even then I imagine it's pretty close [03:43:25] <dvorak> unless you're io bound or something [03:43:36] <edwardocallaghan> I know the P4 is shit, everyone knows that, even Dell :O [03:43:54] <nrubsig> delewis: why ? [03:44:09] <delewis> nrubsig, I was doing fp multiplication [03:44:16] <delewis> and sure enough, it's calling .mul [03:44:24] <nrubsig> delewis: is there any way to enable qp math in hardware ? [03:44:25] <delewis> > ::next [03:44:26] <delewis> mdb: target stopped at: [03:44:26] <delewis> main+0x5c: call +0x100234 <PLT:_Qp_mul> [03:45:04] <delewis> I don't know, but I think someone needs a kick in the head for this :-) [03:45:19] <delewis> that or being thrown into a cage full of komodo dragons [03:46:31] <nrubsig> delewis: http://src.opensolaris.org/source/xref/onnv/onnv-gate/usr/src/lib/libc/sparc/fp/_Q_mul.c [03:46:36] <edwardocallaghan> OK I know I know but I am learning... How does the top end Ultra SPARC workstation compare to the top end x86 one ? [03:46:53] <nrubsig> delewis: no wonder that ksh93 math is so slow on Solaris [03:47:14] <dvorak> ksh93 uses quad precision math? [03:47:45] <nrubsig> dvorak: yes [03:48:00] <steleman> delewis: about those komodo dragons. you were saying ? [03:48:01] <dvorak> that seems rather silly as a default [03:48:20] <nrubsig> dvorak: makes sense because the parsing overhead is usually larger than the math stuff [03:48:31] *** giant| has joined #opensolaris [03:48:36] <delewis> nrubsig, just tried using -fast, too, to make use of some floating-point trickery that might be available. [03:48:43] <delewis> still a call to that procedure [03:49:10] <edwardocallaghan> This is a very interesting conversation! [03:49:16] <Gr|ffous> are komodo dragons known for attacking people? I know they look big and scary, and have huge teethe, but are they aggresive to humans? [03:49:30] <delewis> they are if you try and ride them [03:49:35] <Gr|ffous> ROFL [03:49:43] *** bobbyz has joined #opensolaris [03:49:44] <nrubsig> Gr|ffous: no [03:49:49] <steleman> Gr|ffous: i tried to have sex with one once, but it ran away [03:49:52] <dvorak> delewis: you're compiling a 64bit binary? [03:49:52] <nrubsig> Gr|ffous: not really agressive to humans. [03:49:56] <delewis> dvorak, yes. [03:50:19] <delewis> I thought it would be hardware in v9 or v9a, but steleman was right :-( [03:50:26] <nrubsig> Gr|ffous: however they are not scared by humans either like most animals. [03:50:32] * steleman gloats [03:50:37] <Gr|ffous> I can remember trying to ride a dog once when I was quite young. Didn't end well [03:50:37] <steleman> :-) [03:50:39] * delewis throws stones [03:50:40] <nrubsig> delewis: care to ask in opensolaris-code why this is done. [03:50:47] <delewis> nrubsig, don't nominate me :-) [03:51:00] <nrubsig> delewis: too late. [03:51:11] <edwardocallaghan> wtf ? [03:51:13] <delewis> you should attend the HPC workshop at Aachen this year if you're in the area, and gripe to some of the Sun guys there. [03:51:36] <edwardocallaghan> me ? [03:51:40] <dvorak> I suspect it's because sparcv9 specifies quad precision, but sun doesn't actually implement it [03:51:47] <delewis> they had a few guys from the Sun Studio development team last time. [03:51:48] <jbk> The UltraSPARC I, UltraSPARC II, UltraSPARC IIe, UltraSPARC IIi, UltraSPARC III, UltraSPARC IIIi, UltraSPARC IV, and UltraSPARC IV+ floating-point units implement the floating-point instruction set defined in the SPARC Architecture Manual Version 9 except for the quad precision instructions [03:52:16] <steleman> delewis: back in the days of US-I, writing int i = 2+2+2; was faster than writing int i = 2*3 with SunProC 4.2 [03:52:23] <Error_404> i tried to ride the cat when i was younger [03:52:30] <Error_404> like, all the time [03:52:32] *** sahafeez has quit IRC [03:52:39] <delewis> steleman, I think the Sun compilers have come a long way since then :-) [03:52:46] <Error_404> oh bloody christ [03:52:47] <Doc> of course, with -O both would become i=6 so there's no problem :) [03:52:48] <nrubsig> Error_404: I hope the cat scratched your skin into pieces. [03:52:59] <steleman> Doc: this was -XO3 :-) [03:53:00] <Error_404> I am now in temporary posession of $1000 of the bank's money [03:53:18] <Doc> error_404: give it to me for safe keeping [03:53:27] <edwardocallaghan> I can hold on to it for you [03:53:34] <Error_404> I'm relatively certain i'm criminally liable for it [03:53:36] * delewis wonders why Sun didn't implement quad-precision FP :-( [03:53:45] * delewis throws boulders [03:53:54] <dvorak> I suspect because no one uses it enough to justify the silicon [03:53:57] <Error_404> it needs to sit there for a while while they clear up the error [03:54:21] <delewis> dvorak, this is true. I'd rather have more cache than quad-precision fp :-) [03:54:39] <Doc> very, very ppl actually use FP to any real extent [03:54:42] <nrubsig> dvorak: you could implement it quite easily if you accept some penalty in the execution. [03:54:45] <steleman> delewis: because 98.3% of math used by Sun customers only needs double precision. not even floating point. [03:54:54] <giant|> hum....what's the diff abt "cpu load" and "cpu utilization" ? thx! [03:54:55] <dvorak> you mean like implementing it in software? ;) [03:54:56] <delewis> Doc, this is also true. Most people *think* they need fp when they really don't. [03:55:12] <nrubsig> dvorak: e.g. trap it and then execute a fast emulation with 10 "special" instructions. [03:55:15] <Doc> "load" is some made-up number based on what happened in the past, pi, and the phase of the moon [03:55:28] <delewis> I always find it funny to look at people when I tell them that audio encoding, for example, requires no fp at all in most cases. [03:55:31] <dvorak> well, I suspect that's exactly what they do [03:55:37] <Doc> "utilization" is a completely different, slightly less made up number based on what the actual CPU is doing now [03:55:48] <dvorak> except that library calls end up being faster [03:55:55] <dvorak> so the compiler does that by default [03:56:03] <Error_404> delewis, i wouldn't think it would be [03:56:05] <Doc> perhaps error_404's bank uses FP for his balance, and that's why he's got an extra $1000? [03:56:18] <edwardocallaghan> lol [03:56:19] <Error_404> delewis, it's just a bunch of vector calculations [03:56:24] <steleman> why is it that my bank never ever makes an error in my favor ? [03:56:33] <Error_404> steleman, you don't want it [03:56:40] <Error_404> if you spend the money, even accidently [03:56:43] <steleman> Error_404: oh but i do. [03:56:45] <jamesd_> my bank doesn't use fp, but it does use lots of negative values. [03:56:46] <Doc> an error "in your favour" is never going to actually be "in your favour" [03:56:47] <Error_404> they can come back and sue you [03:56:48] <steleman> i *so*do. [03:56:49] <delewis> Error_404, yes, but for some reason there's a certain "population" out there that thinks because audio encoding is "mathematical" it requires fp :-) [03:57:01] <delewis> I won't mention this population, but they do exist [03:57:07] <Doc> delewis: ditto bank/money/financial/etc calcs [03:57:24] <Doc> of course they are FP - i have $10.54 in the bank, and that's a floating point number! [03:57:44] <Error_404> I imagine certain video & image manips require floating point (I'm thinking discrete cosine transform), but i could be wrong [03:57:54] <dvorak> it depends on the codec [03:57:55] <steleman> Doc: Morgan Stanley had very strict rules about never using floating point, only using doubles for their derivatives trading desks [03:58:16] <steleman> so i dont think they are that ignorant [03:58:29] <Error_404> my elementary linear algebra doesn't give me the necc. knowledge to make a statement about FFT one way or the other [03:58:50] <Doc> steleman: i dont mean the actual ppl doing it - just the rest of the world [03:59:05] <Doc> Sun has a tool which tells you how much FP you're using - most ppl are very, very surprised when they run it against their apps [03:59:17] <steleman> Doc: it is also true that one of my interns at said bank was shocked when i asked him why he was using floats instead of doubles [03:59:18] <Doc> woot.. Tiger Moth flyover! :) [04:00:00] <jamesd_> double shots are the only doubles that most bankers are interested in. [04:00:17] <steleman> 3-Martini +TBone steak lunches. [04:00:21] * steleman feels sick [04:00:26] <edwardocallaghan> lol [04:00:29] *** MikeTLive has joined #opensolaris [04:00:52] <giant|> Doc: ok,thx! [04:01:01] <jamesd_> i prefer ribeye steaks [04:01:05] <edwardocallaghan> So for example how much faster is a FFT on my Blade 2000 to the Ultra 20 M2 ? [04:01:10] <steleman> jamesd: not for lunch i hope ? [04:01:19] * nrubsig tries to understand http://src.opensolaris.org/source/xref/onnv/onnv-gate/usr/src/lib/libc/sparc/fp/_Q_div.c and gets mad [04:01:23] <edwardocallaghan> I have two 1GHz [04:01:28] <nrubsig> gllwwwwww [04:01:36] <MikeTLive> odd. connection to #solaris was fine but #opensolaris was silent since 6:25. [04:01:41] <jamesd_> ribeyes are better period... and i can always take the leftovers with me. [04:01:47] <Error_404> edwardocallaghan: why don't you benchmark them and find out? [04:01:48] <MikeTLive> quasi : you suggested vmware to hold the sol10 on my t43. any quickstart readmes for doing so? how much disk space do you think it'l need? [04:02:02] <MikeTLive> jamesd_ go with a large porterhouse. [04:02:14] <MikeTLive> say - 1.5-2 inch thick. [04:02:20] <jamesd_> MikeTLive, 5-6GB ... with more dedicated drives for zfs if you want to play with zfs [04:02:23] <edwardocallaghan> I would but I don't own a Ultra 20 M2 I can't afford it [04:02:48] <steleman> edwardocallaghan: build your own from parts. it will be 1/3 of the price [04:02:55] <Error_404> if you bought a sparc because you think they're ultrafast, you're a moron [04:03:11] <edwardocallaghan> lol no [04:03:14] <steleman> i built myself a nice rig for almost nothing. ordering it from IBM or Dell would have cost me over 10K [04:03:33] <edwardocallaghan> I got one because I love RISC [04:03:49] <Error_404> then who cares how much faster a U20 will be [04:03:54] <edwardocallaghan> I really don't like x86 after my SGI O2 [04:04:04] <Error_404> an O2 is mips [04:04:13] <edwardocallaghan> Yes I know [04:04:20] <Error_404> IRIX is dead, btw [04:04:23] <jamesd_> edwardocallaghan, then you need to try a AMD opteron box.... the O2 sucks. [04:04:24] <Error_404> as of last week [04:04:27] <edwardocallaghan> I know [04:04:38] <darkcmd> last week? [04:04:41] <dvorak> uh, a fft isn't going to be faster on the blade 2000 than on a ultra 20 m2 [04:04:44] <dvorak> by any measure [04:04:52] <edwardocallaghan> I love my O2 it kicks [04:04:53] <steleman> Error_404: but IRIX will live forever in the hearts and minds of those who loved it :-) [04:04:58] <Error_404> darkcmd: yes, it moved in to legacy support last week [04:05:11] <Error_404> SGI now only sells IA64/linux junk boxees [04:05:24] <edwardocallaghan> yes then are gone :'( [04:05:24] <steleman> kewl. a growing market. [04:05:33] <Error_404> to whom, i have no idea [04:05:42] <jbk> for sufficiently small values of 'growing' [04:05:53] <MikeTLive> i only have a T43 with single disk. has about 18g free so using 8 wouldnt be hard [04:05:54] <Error_404> but you *can* buy an sgi machine, but only an itanic/linsucks machine [04:06:09] <edwardocallaghan> What where the reasons you guys got your Blade's ? [04:06:22] <MikeTLive> could do mkfile to play with zfs. I have a stack of v440/420s in office that i am doing s10 on. [04:06:23] * steleman has never seen an itanic box of any kind. i am still not convinced they actually exist. [04:06:24] <Error_404> i have an opteron [04:06:40] <jamesd_> because smp sparcs are sweet.... may not be the fastest, but they are smoother than a lot of other faster boxes. [04:07:38] <edwardocallaghan> Do you think its worth me keeping it or buying a Ultra 20 M2 ? [04:07:41] <jbk> steleman: we had some itanic workstations several years ago -- to replace some ph-ux workstations [04:07:52] <jbk> but it was amusing.. besides the 800W PS they needed [04:08:00] <edwardocallaghan> I have to say I really do like SPARC's from what I have seen so far [04:08:11] <jbk> ph-ux couldn't run X on them, you ahd to use XP or redhat [04:08:12] <steleman> jbk: are they as slow as their reputation makes them to be ? :-) [04:08:52] <jbk> steleman: this was like the 1st gen chips [04:08:57] <steleman> oh [04:10:06] <jbk> all the sun & ibm sysadmins got a kick out of the fact that you couldn't run X under ph-ux on them [04:10:14] <jbk> besides the 800W PS [04:11:06] <steleman> my opteron rig has a 1000W PS [04:11:15] * steleman grins sheepishly [04:11:26] <Error_404> way to warm up the planet [04:11:26] <steleman> to support the nVIDIA video card [04:11:27] <jbk> this was like 4 yrs ago though [04:11:57] <jbk> maybe longer [04:13:34] <MikeTLive> i have gift cards for bestbuy -anyone suggest rig or components from there? got about 1000bucks to work from :) reward cards for saving company bacon. [04:13:54] <jbk> i just wonder when hp's going to finally cut their losses.. [04:14:36] <darkcmd> are these sun blades any good? [04:14:59] <jbk> they had to resort to paying isv's to support itanic [04:15:12] <edwardocallaghan> Well I think my one rocks and kicks the ... off any P4 [04:15:30] <edwardocallaghan> Seems so much faster [04:16:32] <darkcmd> edwardocallaghan: can you message me the specs? [04:17:32] <steleman> MikeTLive: for 1000 you can get a nice tyan dual opteron mobo 2 dual core opterons 2GB ram [04:18:46] <steleman> maybe even 4gb ram [04:18:49] *** qdk has joined #opensolaris [04:21:14] <MikeTLive> problem is I am locked to bestbuy.. might have amazon as an option. its an employee rewards program so the face value is more than the company actually gives. [04:23:14] <edwardocallaghan> Get a load of Hard Disks and the best Opterions [04:24:58] <MikeTLive> no tyan products in bestbuy searv. [04:25:45] <edwardocallaghan> Get RAM, Disk and CPU and buy a low end Ultra 20/40 and spec it up yourself [04:26:24] <edwardocallaghan> That would be extreme :D [04:27:01] <Error_404> ? [04:27:03] *** sahafeez has joined #opensolaris [04:27:07] <MikeTLive> theres an idea.... [04:27:24] <Error_404> it'd be $400 more expensive than just parting it out [04:27:51] *** deedaw has quit IRC [04:28:44] <edwardocallaghan> But you would end up with a better system and support with your new Workstation [04:29:13] <edwardocallaghan> Its what I would do [04:29:29] <edwardocallaghan> Oh you got me dreaming I won't to do that now [04:30:30] <edwardocallaghan> Buy some extra parts and sell them on ebay to make up the extra cost [04:31:30] <MikeTLive> thats what I figured. [04:31:39] <MikeTLive> resell some crap to turn the certs into cash [04:31:54] <MikeTLive> buy giftcards and sell them :) [04:32:03] <edwardocallaghan> mate that would be Ultra Cool ! [04:32:30] *** freakazoid0224 has joined #opensolaris [04:33:09] <edwardocallaghan> Buy two 147GB SAS disks and 4GB of RAM, with the latist AMD CPU's and fit them into a Ultra 20M2 [04:33:32] <edwardocallaghan> Then buy other random stuff to make up the cost of the Ultra 20 M2 [04:34:37] * steleman hates PHP [04:35:10] <edwardocallaghan> Who here has a Sun Blade and what do they use it for ? [04:35:43] *** sahafeez has quit IRC [04:35:51] <darkcmd> edwardocallaghan: I have an Ultra 2 [04:36:18] <edwardocallaghan> Ah darkcmd, did you get my message ? [04:37:46] <edwardocallaghan> Its a Blade 2000 , 2GB RAM, two 73GB SCSI 10k rpm disks, and dual 1GHz UltraSPARC III+ See you [04:38:02] <edwardocallaghan> *Cu [04:38:07] <edwardocallaghan> Fucking Gaim [04:40:54] <LeftWing> Get irssi or XChat. ;P [04:41:10] <darkcmd> I'm using irssi [04:41:22] <LeftWing> I'm using both -- XChat through an irssi proxy. [04:41:49] <darkcmd> I'm ssh'd into my SPARC running Solaris 10, managing terminals with GNU screen, which is a pretty cool application. [04:44:58] <LeftWing> It's not bad. I attach to irssi using screen via ssh when I'm not at home. [04:46:25] <edwardocallaghan> Yea but I got a MSN/Yahoo/IRC thing going so Gaim is good for that [04:47:12] <edwardocallaghan> Should I sell my Blade 2000 and get a Ultra 20 M2 ? [04:47:29] <LeftWing> Didn't you just buy the bloody thing? [04:47:29] <edwardocallaghan> Hmm, Oh I can't make my mind up [04:47:34] <edwardocallaghan> Yes [04:47:48] <LeftWing> You could always just hang on to it and get an Ultra 20 later. [04:48:07] <edwardocallaghan> Never had one before, how else am I going to try it? [04:48:51] <edwardocallaghan> If its hard to move it to Australia I'll sell it I guess [04:49:05] <edwardocallaghan> I do kind of love my SPARC's though [04:49:12] <edwardocallaghan> They seem faster to me [04:49:13] <LeftWing> How many do you have? [04:49:18] <darkcmd> edwardocallaghan: a blade 2000 seems fine to me [04:49:30] <darkcmd> I have an Ultra 2, you have something much much much better [04:50:08] <edwardocallaghan> Sorry yes I always want the most bang for my buck [04:50:25] <edwardocallaghan> I am a Student *** [04:51:03] <edwardocallaghan> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/EdwardOcallaghan [04:51:36] *** rachel_ has quit IRC [04:51:51] <LeftWing> I'm a Student too. [04:52:15] *** rachel_ has joined #opensolaris [04:52:40] <darkcmd> LeftWing: do you use your SPARC as your desktop machine? [04:53:04] <LeftWing> No, I have two Sun Ray 1's on my desk. [04:53:18] <LeftWing> They attach to a Dell SC430. [04:53:31] <darkcmd> running what? [04:53:40] <Gr|ffous> I've been somewhat surprised at how much solaris appears to swap. I have 2GB of ram in this box, and running vmstat I'm seeing the swap values changing quite a bit. Now also new to be is the large number of extra 'filesystem's that are mounted into swap. Could someone bring me up to speed with how solaris uses swap? [04:53:41] <LeftWing> Solaris 10 U1, I believe. [04:53:43] *** sahafeez has joined #opensolaris [04:54:59] <darkcmd> I've been thinking about getting a Sun Ray [04:55:19] <delewis> I use my Blade 1000 for my primary workstation [04:55:26] <delewis> and my peecee for occasional DVD/CD burning. [04:55:40] <LeftWing> darkcmd: Sun Ray 1's are often cheap when they come up on eBay. [04:55:47] <delewis> then again, I've been told I'm a masochist. [04:56:02] <LeftWing> haha [04:56:03] <darkcmd> how much do sun blades usually run? [04:56:26] <delewis> $300-$2k [04:56:45] <darkcmd> would the 300 dollar one be good? [04:56:53] <delewis> $300 will you get a bottom line SB1000 with a single (or if you're lucky a dual proc) 750MHz USIII and 1GB-2GB of memory, along with a single 18GB or 36GB disk [04:57:23] <delewis> $2k will get a dual 1.2GHz USIII CU with 4-8GB of memory, usually dual 36GB disks, or a single 73GB disk, along with a decent framebuffer (XVR-*) [04:57:58] <darkcmd> looks like I'll be looking for a sun blade soon [04:58:08] <Error_404> haha... i tricked qt in to compiling [04:58:09] <delewis> they're very elegant systems. [04:58:29] *** nrubsig has quit IRC [04:58:30] <Error_404> i had to sneak up on it [04:58:33] <delewis> not exactly fast, mind you, but you won't come away with a bad taste in your mouth, like I get when I work with a peecee. [04:58:44] <edwardocallaghan> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=003&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWN%3AIT&viewitem=&item=130060380184&rd=1&rd=1 [04:58:49] <richlowe> delewis: they're not exactly slow, either. [04:58:58] <darkcmd> yeah I asked not too long in here what I should get, and I was recommended an Ultra 2 [04:58:58] <delewis> richlowe, this is true :-) [04:59:04] <delewis> and USIII's are nice, anyway [04:59:07] <darkcmd> I paid 30 for an Ultra 2, is that good? [04:59:07] <delewis> especially if you're a developer [04:59:15] <delewis> lots of hardware counters, compared to an x86, or even an UltraSPARC-II. [04:59:37] *** nrubsig has joined #opensolaris [04:59:37] *** ChanServ sets mode: +o nrubsig [04:59:42] <edwardocallaghan> I think I may keep my Blade [04:59:49] <nrubsig> chatzilla crasg #891 [04:59:56] <darkcmd> i would [04:59:59] <delewis> nrubsig, get a real IRC client :-) [05:00:00] <edwardocallaghan> What do you guys think of my spec/price ? [05:00:07] <delewis> edwardocallaghan, average. [05:00:18] <delewis> it fits into my pricing scheme quite well. [05:00:24] <nrubsig> delewis: yeah, kopete [05:00:35] <delewis> nrubsig, I was thinking irssi or XChat [05:00:41] <delewis> though, I have several gripes about XChat [05:00:50] <darkcmd> I love irssi [05:00:53] <LeftWing> delewis: Like what? [05:01:19] *** rachel has quit IRC [05:01:23] <delewis> LeftWing, most of it is lack of threads, like when getting a list of channels (especially on a large network like DALnet or EFnet) it'll just come to a grinding halt. [05:01:36] <LeftWing> Ah, cool. [05:01:38] <LeftWing> =P [05:02:21] <delewis> LeftWing, did you get around to watching those HPC videos, yet? [05:02:36] <LeftWing> Nah, I've been a little busy -- I watched some of the OpenMP Intro one though [05:02:39] <edwardocallaghan> videos where? [05:03:00] <delewis> the Optimization Part II one is especially nice [05:03:17] <delewis> lots of details on cache, etc. [05:03:33] <delewis> how the Sun Fire series does cache coherency [05:04:16] * nrubsig wishes the UltraSPARCs would allow to mmap() memory as uncached memory [05:04:43] <delewis> nrubsig, do they try to fill the cache when you mmap()? [05:05:17] <nrubsig> delewis: I mean that I can mark a location of memory as "non-cacheable", for example when I read or write it only once. [05:05:28] <edwardocallaghan> delewis:where are these videos ? [05:05:44] <nrubsig> delewis: currently the L2 cache can be spammed to death [05:05:47] <delewis> http://developers.sun.com/sunstudio/learning/tutorials.jsp [05:06:04] <delewis> towards the bottom: "Sun High Performance (HPC) Workshop 2006 Tutorials" [05:06:32] <delewis> the first two or three aren't that spectacular, but starting with the Optimization ones, it starts getting interesting. [05:06:33] <nrubsig> is there a sun studio option to get it to issue quad-precision instructions instead of using the emulation functions in libc ? [05:06:45] <delewis> if you know nothing about Sun Studio, the first three are worth a viewing, though. [05:07:14] <delewis> nrubsig, that would be pointless, because UltraSPARC-I, -II, -III, etc. don't implement hardware quad-procision fp. [05:07:23] <delewis> they only provide a software implementation because SPARCv9 specifies it. [05:07:55] <Stric> So the chips aren't v9 compliant? [05:07:56] <nrubsig> delewis: it may not be pointless assuming we may see implementations some day. [05:08:05] <delewis> Stric, you miss understand SPARCv9 [05:08:08] <nrubsig> Stric: SPARCv9 is an ABI [05:08:15] <delewis> SPARCv9 does not declare whether it has to be implemented in software or hardware [05:08:18] <darkcmd> ABI? [05:08:19] <delewis> it just states that it has to "exist" [05:08:26] <Stric> darkcmd: application binary interface [05:08:29] <LeftWing> Application Binary Interface. [05:08:49] <edwardocallaghan> I was reading about that today [05:08:54] <edwardocallaghan> ABI [05:09:07] <edwardocallaghan> Mate, its 4am here [05:09:12] <Stric> 5 here [05:09:16] <delewis> nrubsig, yes, but I don't see Sun putting development effort into enhancing compilers for imaginary chips :-) [05:09:18] <nrubsig> delewis: how large is the penalty of the trap [05:09:25] <nrubsig> ? [05:09:34] <delewis> nrubsig, no clue, what's the best way to measure that? [05:09:35] <edwardocallaghan> But this is exactly the kind of IRC chat I like [05:09:41] <darkcmd> prtdiag -v [05:09:47] <darkcmd> oops, sorry [05:10:04] <delewis> oh, I know what I'll do [05:10:07] <delewis> nevermind [05:10:08] <nrubsig> delewis: write application and compile it with and without trapping ? :-) [05:10:13] <delewis> I'll just use regular float, and then do long double [05:10:14] <delewis> yeah ;-) [05:10:31] <nrubsig> delewis: I guess on UltraSPARC-T1 the "overhead" is near zero [05:10:38] *** Commander-Crowe has joined #opensolaris [05:10:44] <Commander-Crowe> hi [05:11:01] <Commander-Crowe> where can i get Solaris 10 for free without downloading it? I'm on dial up [05:11:11] <nrubsig> delewis: and I guess on SPARC64 (which can enter traps on speculation) the overhead may be near zero, too. [05:11:23] <delewis> nrubsig, nice, didn't know SPARC64 could do that. [05:11:24] <Stric> Commander-Crowe: You can't, I think.. either you buy the media from sun or download it [05:11:32] <LeftWing> Commander-Crowe: Go to your University and download it. =P [05:11:33] <delewis> makes me wonder why people even bother with SPARCv9 for HPC. [05:11:42] <delewis> then again, I wonder how much HPC even uses quad-precision. [05:11:50] <LeftWing> delewis: Exactly. [05:11:51] <delewis> I think double-precision would suffice for most workloads. [05:11:55] <nrubsig> delewis: speculation on SPARC64 has almost no borders [05:12:04] *** sahafeez has quit IRC [05:12:16] <nrubsig> delewis: at the expense that the speculation hardware is gigantic [05:12:19] <Stric> delewis: aren't sparcs in hpc mostly because of e25k boxes etc? (loads of ram & cpus in a single OS image) [05:12:40] <nrubsig> Stric: is there any E25k in the top500 left ? [05:12:40] <delewis> Stric, yes, but Fujitsu has some fairly large SPARC64 systems, too [05:12:44] <delewis> at least the same size as the E25K [05:12:50] <nrubsig> delewis: no. [05:12:52] *** Commander-Crowe has left #opensolaris [05:12:53] <Stric> nrubsig: it doesn't have the oompf [05:13:03] <nrubsig> delewis: Fujitsu machines are much larger [05:13:11] <delewis> Aachen (the University that the HPC conference was held at) has a load of E6900s and one E25K for HPC [05:13:11] <Stric> delewis: better fpu in sparc64 then? [05:13:21] <delewis> Stric, apparently so. [05:13:37] <delewis> I knew Fujitsu's had better FPU performance prior to this conversation (something I've always heard) [05:14:05] <Stric> otherwise, hpc nowadays is mostly 2 socket opteron/woodcrest machines.. because you get the most bang for the buck.. [05:14:37] <delewis> Stric, with things like OpenMP, though, you can really parallelize a workload without a lot of effort to utilize that horizonal scalability an E25K has, though. [05:15:15] <LeftWing> Why is it horizontal? [05:15:22] <Stric> delewis: yep, but if you need 100GB of ram "here and now", then openmp isn't gonna help you that much [05:15:23] <delewis> oh, I meant vertical. [05:15:28] <LeftWing> =) [05:15:29] <delewis> my axis are off tonight :-) [05:15:32] <LeftWing> haha [05:15:36] <LeftWing> Diagonal is my favourite. ;P [05:15:43] <Stric> backwards? [05:16:13] <edwardocallaghan> Right I am off [05:16:18] <edwardocallaghan> Night guys [05:16:30] <delewis> it'd still be interesting to see some benchmarks between say something like an E25K with a highly parallel workload vs. something NUMA-like. [05:16:31] <edwardocallaghan> Hope to see you soon [05:17:13] <delewis> obviously, for memory-intensive work, the E25K would win, but I'm not very familiar with Myrinet and so fourth. [05:17:48] *** edwardocallaghan has left #opensolaris [05:18:01] *** asarch has quit IRC [05:19:08] <darkcmd> I'm going to get a Sun Blade, they look good. [05:19:09] <delewis> I just find it difficult to think that some place like Aachen would go SPARC for HPC without a good reason, unless Sun threw E6900s and E25Ks at them :-) [05:19:46] * delewis wishes Sun would throw an E6900 at him [05:20:15] <jbk> i don't know.. if sun threw an e6900 at me, i'd try to get out of the way [05:20:18] <Stric> just remember to get out of the way when it lands [05:21:15] <nrubsig> jbk: why ? It would be a nice&&quick death. [05:21:26] <nrubsig> Crushed to death by SF69k [05:21:44] <delewis> that'd get you into Sto'vo'kor. [05:21:51] <nrubsig> yeah [05:22:00] <delewis> a death by an E6900 gives you street credit with the Klingons. [05:22:43] <nrubsig> does anyone here have access to the bugs.opensolaris.org triage queue ? [05:22:59] <Gr|ffous> I just did a mkfile 1G /var/tmp/blah, to explore how vm worked a bit better. This completely froze my system for about 30 seconds. event the cursor wouldn't move. Is this expected behaviour. [05:23:12] <delewis> Gr|ffous, no. [05:23:18] <Gr|ffous> I ran that is a user too, seems like a very easy DOS! :) [05:23:21] <delewis> that indicates a shitty driver or controller. [05:23:35] <nrubsig> Gr|ffous: is /var/tmp/ tmpfs in your case ? Or do you use ZFS for it ? [05:23:37] <delewis> if you're using IDE-backed storage, I'd see if you have UDMA enabled or not. [05:24:12] <darkcmd> When people say they run Solaris 10 U1, what does U1 mean? [05:24:18] <delewis> darkcmd, "Update 1" [05:24:19] <nrubsig> Update 1 [05:24:20] <Gr|ffous> sorry, it was /tmp, not /var/tmp [05:24:22] <delewis> which was 1/06. [05:24:27] <nrubsig> Gr|ffous: ugh [05:24:32] <delewis> Gr|ffous, ah, this is different. [05:24:35] <nrubsig> Gr|ffous: that is a ramdisk [05:24:42] <delewis> never use /tmp for such purposes. [05:24:44] <nrubsig> Gr|ffous: it will swap itself to death [05:24:56] <Gr|ffous> well I'm trying to understand how swap works unders solaris [05:25:07] <Gr|ffous> having it *MOUNTED* is very alien to me [05:25:18] <delewis> swap is used for two things in Solaris. [05:25:24] <delewis> /tmp and traditional swap. [05:25:27] *** markedwards has joined #opensolaris [05:25:31] <Gr|ffous> so, dumb thing to do, but is that normal? users can DOS a host by writing in there? [05:25:34] <Stric> but not swap per se, but paging. [05:25:35] <nrubsig> Gr|ffous: that is just an indication that tmpfs is using swap as "storage" [05:25:38] <darkcmd> nrubsig: is that the current release? [05:25:47] <nrubsig> darkcmd: no [05:25:56] <jbk> well you can always limit the size of /tmp if you're concerned about users [05:25:59] <delewis> darkcmd, currently release is Update 3 or 11/06. [05:26:11] *** jsubl2 has quit IRC [05:26:12] <nrubsig> darkcmd: AFAIK S10U3 is "current" for solaris 10 and B64 is "current" for solaris 11 [05:26:15] <nrubsig> er [05:26:18] <nrubsig> b54 [05:26:23] <delewis> temporal anomaly. [05:26:30] <nrubsig> yeah [05:26:31] <darkcmd> what does b54 mean? [05:26:36] <delewis> build 54 [05:26:39] <nrubsig> Build 54 [05:26:44] <Gr|ffous> delewis, I seem to have it mounted in three places: /etc/svc/volatile, /tmp, and /var/run [05:27:01] <nrubsig> Gr|ffous: then you have three ramdisks [05:27:02] <Stric> "chunk of stuff put together more often than a regular release" [05:27:09] <Gr|ffous> jbk, limit it below actual swap size? or do you mean simply making my swap smaller? [05:27:24] <delewis> Gr|ffous, using swap is actually quite clever, though. [05:27:30] <delewis> it allows things to be paged in very easily. [05:27:36] <delewis> (from my understanding) [05:27:45] <Gr|ffous> nrubsig, the terminology is confusing me a bit, they aren't actually RAM from what I can see, actually it's disk (swap) [05:27:54] <Stric> Gr|ffous: it's both [05:28:02] <Stric> Gr|ffous: first ram until it runs out, then swap [05:28:08] * Gr|ffous stares blankly [05:28:15] <Gr|ffous> oh... [05:28:16] <jbk> i mean, you can (as a mount option) limit the size of /tmp [05:28:25] <jbk> regardless of the amount of swap [05:29:09] <Gr|ffous> delewis, excuse my ignorance, but doesn't the kernel handle all that in the background, why would a user be paging things via a fs? [05:29:52] <Stric> the kernel handles it, the user wouldn't be paging anything and it's not via a fs [05:30:03] <Stric> it's just that your /tmp shares the same space as free ram + swap [05:30:36] <Stric> if you alloc memory, free space in /tmp shrinks.. if you add stuff there, free memory shrinks [05:30:55] <Gr|ffous> ah I see [05:31:20] <Gr|ffous> so it's more flexable then the linux way, which dedicates ram to /tmp in a ramdisk [05:31:46] <Stric> linux can do the same except not using swap afaik [05:31:55] <Stric> but you don't need to make a static allocation [05:31:58] <Gr|ffous> yeah I think that's the case [05:32:15] <Stric> maybe it will use swap too.. hm.. [05:32:43] <jbk> the downside is by default, if you have people used to other OSes.. you can see unwanted effects if say, a DBA decides to put an oracle export in /tmp :) [05:33:30] <Stric> if you put anything you want to keep in /tmp, you're doing it wrong anyhow [05:33:46] <jbk> well i don't think it was meant to be permanent [05:33:54] <jbk> but never bothered to clean it out [05:33:55] <delewis> basically, treat /var/tmp as the /tmp in other operating systems, like Linux. [05:34:14] <Stric> misc linux'es clean out /tmp at boot, so it's about the same [05:34:55] <Gr|ffous> so a simple df -F | grep swap gives me different values for the three mounts that I have. Given that the total is the same for all of them, I take it that these values are something akin to the amount used in the shared pool for each? [05:36:06] <Gr|ffous> ok, and what is this one? /lib/libc.so.1 on /usr/lib/libc/libc_hwcap2.so.1 [05:36:19] <Stric> Gr|ffous: but available space is the same for all of them [05:36:42] <Stric> the kbytes col is just fabricated from used+free [05:36:57] <Gr|ffous> yup, ok [05:37:07] <Gr|ffous> a bit like a zfs in a zpool really :) [05:37:20] <Stric> very much [05:37:39] <Stric> oh well. night. [05:38:02] <Gr|ffous> before you go, can you give me an overview on the /lib/libc.so.1 entry? [05:39:13] *** lloy0076 has joined #opensolaris [05:41:39] *** markedwards has quit IRC [05:41:51] <nrubsig> Gr|ffous: this is a CPU-optimized version of libc [05:42:19] <nrubsig> Gr|ffous: solaris first starts with a generic version and then overlays it later with an optimized version once scripting/etc. is possible [05:43:24] <Gr|ffous> ah, so the hwcap is short for hardware capabilities? [05:43:25] <nrubsig> Gr|ffous: the "mount" trick makes this "replacement" an atomic filesystem operation since moving would open a timing hole where /lib/libc.so.1 may not be available. [05:43:28] <nrubsig> yes [05:44:09] <nrubsig> Gr|ffous: for example it contains CPU-optimized versions of memcpy() etc. [05:44:39] <Gr|ffous> ah, thanks [05:45:46] <Gr|ffous> from what I've managed to work out, the whole multibootloader situation works along the same lines, rather then just point at a kernel from grub, multiboot picks a kernel based on 32bit or 64bit if it's available. Is this correct? [05:46:39] *** bobbyz has quit IRC [05:57:03] <richlowe> Yes. [05:57:08] <richlowe> though you can specify one explicitly if you choose. [05:57:20] <richlowe> (and when Xen integrates, it'll change all that, too) [05:59:57] *** neoxed_ has joined #OpenSolaris [06:00:04] <nrubsig> $ dtrace -s fork-o-meter.d -c "ksh93 -c /bin/ls" [06:00:05] <nrubsig> dtrace: failed to compile script fork-o-meter.d: line 2: probe description proc:::create does not match any probes [06:00:07] <nrubsig> ;-( [06:00:30] <richlowe> proc:::start [06:00:36] <richlowe> oh, nope, I'm dumb. [06:01:10] <nrubsig> richlowe: is "proc" somehow restricted ? [06:01:41] <richlowe> I'm not sure how the dtrace privs map out. [06:02:22] <richlowe> you'd need dtrace_proc, or to be root. [06:05:01] <darkcmd> the talk command does not work on my default solaris install, another user on this machine is initiating a talk session with me, and I get no notice [06:05:18] <richlowe> oh boy. [06:05:34] <nrubsig> richlowe: /usr/bin/ppriv $$ [06:05:36] <nrubsig> 106: -ksh93 [06:05:37] <nrubsig> flags = <none> [06:05:39] <nrubsig> E: basic,dtrace_proc,dtrace_user [06:05:40] <nrubsig> I: basic,dtrace_proc,dtrace_user [06:05:42] <nrubsig> P: basic,dtrace_proc,dtrace_user [06:05:43] <nrubsig> L: all [06:06:00] <darkcmd> is this usual behavior? [06:07:22] <nrubsig> darkcmd: I hope not. [06:19:30] *** gm152 has quit IRC [06:21:10] <Error_404> for christ sakes.... [06:21:25] <Error_404> what's that command... that lets you tell a program where to look for dynamic libraries [06:21:34] <Error_404> so you don't have to use LD_LIBRARY_PATH [06:21:39] <jbk> crle [06:21:49] *** lloy0076 has quit IRC [06:23:34] <Doc> 7 1/2 hours to go! [06:23:39] <Doc> (give or take...) [06:23:47] <Error_404> jbk, thank you! [06:23:54] <Error_404> I couldn't for the life of me remember [06:24:14] <jbk> i've haven't been called a walking manpage for nothing :) [06:25:33] *** trip has joined #opensolaris [06:26:15] *** trip has quit IRC [06:26:18] *** triplah has joined #opensolaris [06:26:18] *** Kmays has quit IRC [06:29:44] <Error_404> hmm... oops [06:29:53] <Error_404> i guess this is why you have to be root to mess with crle [06:31:02] <Error_404> brb (maybe) [06:31:25] <IvanR_> crle should still run to unto the screwup. [06:33:21] <Error_404> yes, this would definately be one of those "bad things" we talked about [06:35:28] <IvanR_> crle has an explicit RUNPATH of $ORIGIN/../lib, or in theory "LD_LIBRARY_PATH=/usr/lib rm /var/ld/ld.config" might work too. [06:35:43] * IvanR_ doesn't have a whole root zone to try that on right now [06:35:57] <Error_404> how much worse could it get *shrug* [06:36:00] <Error_404> worth a shot [06:36:21] *** ircminer03 has joined #opensolaris [06:40:54] <Error_404> booted in to safe mode, used LD_LIBRARY_PATH & chroot to fix it [06:40:55] *** nbkk6fo__ has quit IRC [06:41:06] *** nbkk6fo__ has joined #opensolaris [06:42:58] <Error_404> at least now i get a login [06:43:05] <Error_404> and not init puking everywhere [06:43:11] <Error_404> heh, that was fun [06:50:10] <Error_404> note: crle -l replaces your *entire* search path [06:50:40] <Error_404> and lucky us > 5.10 users.... there's no static-linked shell on the system [06:54:38] <darkcmd> what's wrong with a static-linked shell? [06:55:38] <Error_404> darkcmd, well, solaris doesn't do static linking anymore [06:55:46] <Error_404> not in any real sense [06:56:04] <darkcmd> since when doesn't it? [06:56:13] <jbk> solaris 10 [06:57:03] <Error_404> hence my " > 5.10" comment [06:57:33] <Error_404> on the upside, less memory used [06:57:50] <Error_404> on the downside, people like me can seriously bugger up the machine by mishandling crle [06:58:32] <richlowe> boot the failsafe. [06:58:39] <Error_404> richlowe, already taken care of [06:58:44] <Error_404> :) [07:04:04] *** Kush- has joined #opensolaris [07:12:01] *** mikeh623 has joined #opensolaris [07:14:55] <mikeh623> hey guys, whats the best way/protocol to remotely manage the solaris box so a monitor, keyboard and mouse need not be connected? [07:15:34] <delewis> mikeh623, through the serial line. [07:15:37] <nrubsig> mikeh623: X11, LOM and serial (RS232) can be used. [07:15:49] <delewis> via a console server or another system [07:16:02] <delewis> LOM and ALOM are there, too, and better (presuming you have it) [07:17:03] <mikeh623> what about when it comes to just file transfers both within and outside lan [07:17:13] <delewis> ssh/sftp [07:18:26] <mikeh623> i know ftp, what ssh commands work? for example, wall didn't seem to work [07:21:52] <Error_404> ? [07:21:55] <Error_404> man ssh [07:21:58] <Error_404> jesus lazy [07:22:49] *** AbeFroman has quit IRC [07:23:58] *** Theoden has joined #opensolaris [07:24:31] <Theoden> Could someone give me some help configuring an ESS Maestro3 sound card to work in opensolaris? [07:25:42] *** Kush- has left #opensolaris [07:25:48] *** mikeh623 has quit IRC [07:30:47] *** darkcmd has quit IRC [07:31:15] <IvanR_> Theoden: Check out http://www.opensound.com/solaris.html [07:31:30] *** ircminer03 has quit IRC [07:34:06] *** AbeFroman has joined #opensolaris [07:49:26] *** Stormy has joined #opensolaris [07:49:49] <Stormy> how is the smp support for x86 ? [07:50:06] *** nrubsig has quit IRC [07:50:38] <Error_404> fantastic [07:50:56] <Stormy> good [07:50:59] <Error_404> solaris is really *really* good at smp [07:51:16] <Stormy> how well do linux binaries run with open solaris? [07:51:56] <Error_404> meh [07:52:01] <Error_404> sometimes they do [07:52:17] <Error_404> but i've not heard of a whole lot of linux-only binaries [07:52:25] <Error_404> so it just never comes up [07:52:35] <Tpenta> I've run skype in a brandZ zone [07:52:48] <Error_404> there you go [07:53:06] <Stormy> yea [07:53:15] <Stormy> but i'm talking about closed source pre compiled binaries [07:53:27] <Stormy> like sierra online's valve server [07:53:30] <Tpenta> and skype does not fit that description how? [07:53:32] <Stormy> well steam server [07:53:40] <Tpenta> You'd have to try it [07:53:44] <Stormy> isn't skype source available? [07:53:51] <richlowe> No. [07:53:52] <Tpenta> if there is any driver level component, forget it; brandZ is user level [07:53:55] <Tpenta> no [07:54:05] <Tpenta> If it was, we'd have a native version [07:54:38] <Error_404> i seriously doubt a game server would need to run a kernel module [07:54:49] <Stormy> it doesn't [07:54:52] <Stormy> but it does use the nic's [07:54:58] <Stormy> of course [07:55:05] <Tpenta> there may be some issues, you'd have to try it [07:55:34] <Tpenta> if they talk directly to the nics instead of using the normal functinoality [07:55:53] *** loren has joined #opensolaris [07:56:40] <IvanR_> You can even run a linux opengl-based game inside a branded zone: http://milek.blogspot.com/2006/10/secondlife-on-solaris.html [07:56:42] <Error_404> for some reason maple doesn't want to install in a brandZ [07:56:51] <Error_404> the included JRE craps out [07:57:19] <Error_404> also, i seem to have lost the ability to use a loopback network [07:57:30] <Error_404> ( can't ping 127.0.0.2 ) [07:58:10] <loren> I'm having trouble with networking, but only after rebooting the system after it's already running. (OpenSolaris nevada b54). [08:00:04] <loren> Dec 31 01:08:59 unknown svc.startd[7]: [ID 652011 daemon.warning] svc:/network/physical:default: Method "/lib/svc/method/net-physical" failed with exit status 96. [08:00:51] <loren> HP Pavilion a1540n and other homebrews. [08:01:53] <loren> What's that SX-somethingorother at sun dot com that I'm supposed to file bugs to? [08:02:24] <IvanR_> loren: What ethernet interface name? What does "svcs -vx" report? [08:04:06] <loren> like rtls0? [08:04:34] <loren> i'll brb with the svcs -vx report [08:05:13] <IvanR_> Yes. Don't paste the output here, use http://pastebin.ca/ [08:05:23] <IvanR_> And see what "ifconfig -a" reports, too [08:08:28] <Stormy> what about netstat -r [08:09:12] <Stormy> and for that matter does netstat -r stall at all while it's giving it's dump [08:09:51] <Stormy> err sorry wrong window [08:13:20] *** loren_ has joined #opensolaris [08:13:37] *** loren has quit IRC [08:13:49] *** loren_ is now known as loren [08:15:20] <loren> svsc -xv states that "Start method exited with $SMF_EXIT_ERR_CONFIG" [08:15:33] *** xushi_ has joined #opensolaris [08:17:33] <IvanR_> What interface named does "ifconfig -a" show? [08:19:03] *** lplatypus has joined #opensolaris [08:20:05] <Error_404> all of them [08:21:37] *** loren_ has joined #opensolaris [08:21:38] *** loren has quit IRC [08:21:49] *** trs81 has quit IRC [08:22:13] <loren_> tls0: flags=201000843<UP,BROADCAST,RUNNING,MULTICAST,IPv4,CoS> mtu 1500 index 2 [08:22:14] <loren_> inet 0.0.0.0 netmask ff000000 broadcast 0.255.255.255 [08:22:14] <loren_> ether 0:11:95:24:71:a3 [08:23:36] <IvanR_> Just lo0? And you had rtls0 before? [08:23:59] <loren_> it's rtls0. [08:24:21] <loren_> and loopback [08:24:27] <loren_> lo0: flags=2001000849<UP,LOOPBACK,RUNNING,MULTICAST,IPv4,VIRTUAL> mtu 8232 index 1 [08:24:28] <loren_> inet 127.0.0.1 netmask ff000000 [08:26:05] <IvanR_> Oh, ok. I misread. Is your machine configured for static ip or dhcp? What's in /etc/hostname.rtls0 and /etc/dhcp.rtls0 ? [08:26:57] <loren_> dhcp. [08:28:54] <IvanR_> Both those files should exist, but be empty. [08:31:42] *** loren_ has quit IRC [08:31:57] *** loren_ has joined #opensolaris [08:31:59] *** xea has joined #opensolaris [08:32:06] <loren_> nothing is in hostname.rtls0, while dhcp.rtls0 does not exist [08:33:42] <IvanR_> Ok, try "touch /etc/dhcp.rtls0", then "svcadm restart network/physical" [08:38:08] <onbot> commit by sp92102: 6497333 __uaio_init() marked initialised regardless of creation of worker threads - cores result [08:39:20] <jbk> haha [08:39:52] <jbk> glad that's fixed :) [08:43:07] *** rachel_ has quit IRC [08:43:36] *** loren_ has quit IRC [08:45:03] *** loren_ has joined #opensolaris [08:45:35] <loren_> dosen't work [08:47:36] <loren_> Well, I found a network-physical:default.log (23 lines) should I send it? [08:48:35] <IvanR_> loren_: paste it at http://pastebin.ca/ [08:51:34] <loren_> add net default: gateway 192.168.0.1: entry exists [08:52:52] <loren_> That's the ip address of my loathsome ActionTec GT701-WG. Maybe I should fix it's DHCP so that it doesn't configure itself as a DNS server one of these days. [08:53:05] <Stormy> if i have no net on install of open solaris x86 is it going to go slower? [09:01:47] <Error_404> why would it go any slower? [09:02:06] <loren_> What name should I use on pastebin, IvanR? [09:02:07] <Stormy> not being able to resolve itself [09:02:22] <Stormy> it seems to be going well [09:02:41] <Stormy> is there anyway to make open solaris use bit level encryption with it's disks? [09:05:00] <loren_> http://pastebin.ca/297759 [09:17:28] <Stormy> open solaris should honor the num lock key being pressed and turn the light on the keyboard on and off at all times during an install correct? [09:23:48] <loren_> Stormy, are you using the graphical installer? [09:24:00] <Stormy> no [09:24:02] <IvanR_> loren_: Have you tried a reboot since creating dhcp.rtls0? [09:24:05] <Stormy> text [09:24:38] <loren_> I think that the graphical installer even ignored my power off requests during it's 30 second thing! [09:24:47] <loren_> My monitor was a blur. [09:26:43] <Error_404> the graphical installer probes a couple settings before moving on to i915 on this machine [09:27:02] <Error_404> something before that, it chooses something which confuses my video card [09:27:20] <Error_404> locks upt the machine [09:29:09] *** loren_ has quit IRC [09:29:11] *** loren_ has joined #opensolaris [09:30:21] <loren_> Um, what is vendorID=0x1186. That isn't D-Link is it? It says something about RTLS not supporting this device, but I have two cards. I just assumed that the one that wasn't working was that one. [09:30:42] <loren_> And that wouldn't explain my big HP's problems. [09:31:46] *** Stormy_ has joined #opensolaris [09:32:47] <loren_> rebooting didn't help, no. [09:33:26] <IvanR_> Was rtls0 auto recognized when you installed? What's the pci id of the network card ( from "prtconf -D" )? [09:35:33] *** Stormy has quit IRC [09:35:37] *** xushi_ has quit IRC [09:35:42] *** Stormy_ is now known as Stormy [09:35:56] *** xushi_ has joined #opensolaris [09:41:11] <loren_> I'm not sure. Closest line in prtconf -D says "pci 1186,1301, instance #0 (driver name:rtls)" [09:41:15] *** triplah has quit IRC [09:42:01] *** vmhobbes has joined #OpenSolaris [09:46:23] <IvanR_> Ok, 1186,1301 should be fully compatible, it's in the default list for rtls. [09:47:11] *** vmhobbes has quit IRC [09:47:26] *** vmhobbes has joined #OpenSolaris [09:49:38] *** simford has quit IRC [09:50:37] *** ionutz-nelu has joined #opensolaris [09:50:44] <ionutz-nelu> hi [09:50:49] <Error_404> yo [09:51:04] <ionutz-nelu> i'm havind trouble instaling soalris express [09:52:34] <ionutz-nelu> my system is:mother board:ecs k7vza;amd duron 1200 mhz;3*128b mb sdram video card: Nvidia gf2 mx400 [09:53:04] <ionutz-nelu> installation stops at "configuring /dev" [09:53:13] *** ionutz-nelu is now known as john1987 [09:53:40] *** Theoden has left #opensolaris [09:57:19] <loren_> what kind of solaris do you have ionutz? [09:57:46] <john1987> solaris expres [09:57:51] <loren_> which one [09:57:54] <loren_> version [09:58:10] <loren_> december? [09:58:17] <john1987> yes [09:58:30] <john1987> i've just downloaded it [09:58:33] <Error_404> doesn't the installer require 512M of ram? [09:59:00] <Error_404> oh, n/m it's not required [09:59:03] <Error_404> just painful without [09:59:37] <mihaic> Error_404: iirc 256, 512 with graphical mode. [09:59:54] <mihaic> Still not something you'd want to try either way... [10:01:13] <john1987> thank you [10:01:30] <john1987> for the moment i'll stay on linux [10:01:37] <loren_> he said 3*128mb = 374MB. [10:02:45] <loren_> 384MB [10:02:51] <mihaic> Heh, I have the same identical piece of crap somewhere around here also [10:03:01] <mihaic> Same specs. No luck. [10:04:58] <Error_404> john1987, heh, yeah... have fun with that [10:06:03] *** GoodKarma has quit IRC [10:06:04] <loren_> What chipset does that use? ALi? [10:06:14] <john1987> kt 133a [10:06:27] <john1987> via [10:09:59] <john1987> mihaic romanian? [10:10:16] <mihaic> What do you think? [10:10:25] <john1987> y [10:10:44] <mihaic> Quite right indeed. [10:11:26] <john1987> trebuie dvd cu solaris 10+solaris media kit(parca) [10:11:32] *** bougie has joined #opensolaris [10:11:41] <john1987> ziceau ca sunt gratuite [10:11:46] <mihaic> Do speak English though.. it's an international channel. [10:12:22] <Stormy> is there any way to force open solaris installer to boot in single proc only? [10:13:29] <mihaic> john1987: sun.com -> download. [10:13:42] <john1987> i know [10:14:02] *** trs81 has joined #opensolaris [10:14:33] <john1987> it was an offer thet they will deliver solaris and...something alse for free [10:14:48] <mihaic> Yeah, but you still pay like 10$ for transport. [10:14:54] <mihaic> This isn't Ubuntu :) [10:15:19] <john1987> ok [10:15:42] <quasi> sun have recently given away free install sets - I got 2*3 dvds sent a couple of weeks ago [10:15:47] <quasi> for $0 [10:16:06] <mihaic> Cool [10:16:23] <quasi> http://www2.sun.de/dc/forms/reg_us_2211_391.jsp [10:16:25] <Error_404> I also received free DVD's [10:16:41] <mihaic> quasi: isn't that US only though? [10:16:42] <Error_404> and a netbeans CD [10:16:46] <Error_404> mihaic, i'm in canada [10:17:00] <Error_404> we haven't been invaded yet [10:17:03] <quasi> mihaic: no, I've gotten them both in .dk and .nl [10:17:05] <Error_404> despite the oil [10:17:08] <mihaic> Hehe [10:17:45] <mihaic> Now if I only had a browser, lol :) [10:19:23] *** GoodKarma has joined #opensolaris [10:20:19] <Error_404> nv ships with firefox [10:21:01] <Gr|ffous> is anyone here familiar with (basic) ksh programming [10:21:42] <Error_404> what is it with you people and programming in shells? [10:21:47] <bougie> hello all :) [10:22:14] <Gr|ffous> beats me, I'm trying to use a program written by someone else, and it's not working properly :/ [10:22:27] <quasi> Error_404: it's the way of the future ;) [10:22:27] <Gr|ffous> hi bougie [10:24:09] <Error_404> Gr|ffous, is it delewis' mandlebrot generator? [10:24:23] <Error_404> because there are much better ways of doing that than ksh [10:24:30] <mihaic> lol [10:24:41] <mihaic> Fractal generator in ksh? :) [10:24:48] <Error_404> yes [10:25:04] <mihaic> Not even dtksh? :\ [10:25:11] <Error_404> it was part of his " see, ksh93 *should* go in to O/N, and isn't a useless waste of time" campaign [10:25:14] <Stormy> how do i tell the text based partiton setup tool that i want a slice to be a swap slice? [10:25:26] <Error_404> Stormy, mountpoint label: swap [10:25:27] <IvanR_> Gr|ffous: What's your ksh question? [10:25:32] <Stormy> k [10:25:41] <Gr|ffous> heh, no, it's a blastwave package generator tool [10:26:04] <Error_404> oh... then it automates things [10:26:13] <Gr|ffous> IvanR_, it's seems to be having issues matching upper/lowercase charactors when given a string of more then one letter [10:26:15] <Error_404> & is therefore a good application for shell scripting [10:27:26] *** dunc_ has quit IRC [10:27:35] *** john1987 has quit IRC [10:27:56] <Gr|ffous> here is the helpful output: ERROR: amarok must be all lowercase, the string is 'amarok', and the code is case $SOFTNAME in *[A-Z]*) [10:28:09] <mihaic> Error_404: I fully support his campaign :) [10:28:31] <Gr|ffous> for some reason *[A-Z]* matches on 'amarok' :/ any ideas? [10:28:33] <Error_404> fair enough [10:29:06] <Error_404> Gr|ffous, don't mean to be condescending.... but are you sure it's not amaroK, as per the correct spelling? [10:29:38] <Gr|ffous> fair question, no it's not, even the error tells me that it's 'right'. [10:30:18] <Gr|ffous> changing the string gives this: ERROR: abcd must be all lowercase [10:32:35] <Stormy> my installer keeps locking up [10:33:55] <Stormy> 1 out of every two boots it locks detecting /dev/devices [10:34:04] <Stormy> last time it froze on the first package [10:34:14] <Stormy> this time it froze after 507mb was installed [10:41:05] *** nbkk6fo_ has joined #opensolaris [10:41:05] *** nbkk6fo__ has quit IRC [10:42:32] <Error_404> oh, funky [10:42:55] <Error_404> the official kde build for solaris is built with studio10 [10:42:58] <Error_404> not gcc [10:43:21] *** xushi_ has quit IRC [10:43:48] <mihaic> Didn't know there was such a thing as an official KDE build for Solaris in the first place. [10:43:54] <mihaic> Official from KDE you mean? [10:43:59] *** sartek has quit IRC [10:44:10] *** sartek has joined #opensolaris [10:49:08] <Error_404> mihaic, yes [10:49:11] <Error_404> solaris.kde.org [10:51:45] *** yongsun has quit IRC [10:53:05] *** mazon is now known as Mazon [10:57:48] <sickness> morning all :) [10:58:15] <Error_404> what up, yo [11:04:43] <loren_> IvanR, how would I bring up networking in failsafe? [11:06:14] <sickness> something like #ifconfig iprb0 plump #ifconfig iprb0 "new ip" netmask "new netmask" [11:07:34] <sickness> http://www.karkomaonline.com/article.php/20030711233549968 [11:19:40] *** rgl has joined #opensolaris [11:24:21] *** mihaic has quit IRC [11:24:45] *** benr has joined #opensolaris [11:24:45] *** ChanServ sets mode: +o benr [11:25:06] *** mihaic has joined #OpenSolaris [11:26:37] *** loren_ has quit IRC [11:28:25] *** benr has quit IRC [11:28:47] *** benr has joined #opensolaris [11:28:47] *** ChanServ sets mode: +o benr [11:29:54] <Auralis> aloha benr [11:30:01] <benr> good evening. [11:30:14] <hali> morning [11:30:25] *** UnixTitan has joined #opensolaris [11:30:32] <UnixTitan> benr sup dude [11:30:39] * UnixTitan == LinuxTitan [11:31:22] <sickness> hi benr [11:31:44] <benr> howde. [11:32:11] <UnixTitan> been a while.. seems I am the thrid of fourth e developer to install solaris now ;) [11:32:18] <DataStream> Such a popular guy benr :) [11:32:24] <DataStream> How was your xmas [11:32:47] <benr> good. [11:32:50] *** estibi has joined #opensolaris [11:32:59] <benr> was a nice break.. [11:33:00] <benr> you? [11:33:02] <DataStream> Was it the first one with your new kid? [11:33:07] <DataStream> i lose track of time :) [11:33:11] *** Fish has joined #opensolaris [11:33:12] <benr> hahaha.... [11:33:17] <DataStream> working nights will do that to ya :P [11:33:18] <dlg> benr! [11:33:23] <benr> It was the 3rd Christmas for Nova. [11:33:27] <benr> the 2nd for Glenn. :) [11:33:30] <benr> I have 2 now. :) [11:33:32] <DataStream> ahh [11:33:35] <DataStream> yeah [11:33:48] <Fish> hello [11:33:53] <DataStream> Got anything planned for tonight? [11:34:28] <benr> pimp'ing my desktop atm... getting E reinstalled and tuned. [11:34:35] <UnixTitan> benr: whatever became of your attempt to get e.org redone? [11:34:47] <Gr|ffous> E17 yet benr, or are you still going at it with E16? [11:34:58] <UnixTitan> bahaha [11:35:07] <DataStream> lol, i was just about to ask if he had made a sol package of the new E [11:35:32] <benr> I've been meaning to package things up... haven't gotten around to it lately. [11:35:41] <benr> I'd been running DR17 for months. [11:35:52] <benr> I just installed DR16.8.5 tonight. [11:36:05] <benr> pulled out all my old themes......... its dope. ;) [11:36:08] <DataStream> I saw a screen shot of DR17, looks quite nice [11:36:32] <DataStream> i normally like WM, [11:36:47] <UnixTitan> it is quite nice [11:36:52] <UnixTitan> http://edevelop.org/node/2846 [11:37:01] <UnixTitan> I think thats a reasonable how-to for solaris [11:37:18] <DataStream> Ill wait for bens packages :) [11:37:19] <UnixTitan> but instead of getting the enlightenment packs from freedesktop just install from cvs [11:37:22] <DataStream> im in no rush [11:37:56] <Error_404> I've just resigned myself to the fact that no, i will not be building kde w/ studio any time soon [11:38:31] <benr> http://cuddletech.com/snap.jpg [11:39:08] <benr> UnixTitan: kool. [11:39:19] <benr> UnixTitan: do you still refer to my porting page? [11:39:42] <UnixTitan> eh? [11:39:42] <Error_404> a bit dark for my taste, but nice [11:39:57] <benr> I'm going 90's pimp....... dark and funky. [11:40:06] <benr> I'm in a nistalgic m00d tonight. [11:40:10] <UnixTitan> hehehehe [11:40:13] <Gr|ffous> wow, you have better eyes then me. That font sure is different [11:40:32] <DataStream> Interesting you cant see where the terms start and end [11:40:35] <benr> Gr|ffous: having a 24" LCD helps. ;) [11:40:44] <UnixTitan> DANG [11:40:45] <UnixTitan> lol [11:40:51] *** nbkk6fo_ has quit IRC [11:40:57] <Auralis> benr: which model? [11:40:59] <benr> DataStream: two of the terms are embedded.... transparent and stickey. [11:41:04] *** nbkk6fo_ has joined #opensolaris [11:41:07] <UnixTitan> benr: I thought you were going to do the rewrite.. [11:41:08] <benr> Auralis: the Sun 24" Flat. [11:41:13] <Auralis> benr: ah [11:41:35] <benr> Auralis: wish it were mine, got it as a semi-perminant loaner with some Sun testing I was doing. [11:41:40] <benr> they haven't asked for it back yet. :) [11:41:49] <Auralis> ah hehe [11:42:04] <benr> got an Ultra40 with it too... but can't use it due to power consumption and noise. [11:42:06] <UnixTitan> benr: I know www.enlightenment-studios.com was a joomla test ... doesn't load anymore [11:42:20] <DataStream> benr: ebay it :) [11:42:21] *** loren_ has joined #opensolaris [11:42:31] <sickness> benr: what's your font? wenstminster? [11:42:37] <Auralis> i have to get myself a new 24" screen as well, my sony fw900 died and i'm currently using a old 20" fixed frequency screen from the last millenia [11:42:51] <DataStream> i wonder if the U40 is louder then my X4200, seeing as they are more or less the same thing, but dif cases [11:43:00] <benr> sickness: I'm using 3: smoothansi, nexus, and anorexia [11:43:01] <Error_404> I use a 17" nec.... it's tiny [11:43:06] <benr> UnixTitan: http://www.cuddletech.com/porting/e17.html [11:43:07] <Error_404> :( [11:43:08] <dlg> DataStream: theyre very different machines [11:43:15] <DataStream> not worth buying 24" screen here, as the 19" widescreens are so dam cheap [11:43:17] <benr> Error_404: I had one of those for ages. [11:43:34] <benr> 19" screens can't do 1600x1200 which is my beef with them. [11:43:36] <UnixTitan> benr: ahh thanks :) I just recently installed solaris :D [11:43:37] <dlg> though that might not be true with the x4200 m2 [11:43:44] *** axxl has joined #opensolaris [11:43:50] <UnixTitan> benr: I let Nathan and another buddy of mine talk me into it hehe [11:43:51] <benr> UnixTitan: I use that page myself when building. ;) [11:43:56] <DataStream> dlg: whats the big dif? [11:43:59] <benr> UnixTitan: 95% of it is still valid. [11:44:17] <UnixTitan> ahh sweet [11:44:19] <UnixTitan> this is good stuff [11:44:23] * UnixTitan book marks [11:44:26] <dlg> DataStream: u40 uses nvidia chipsets, x4200 uses amd chipsets [11:44:39] <DataStream> dlg: i just thought they were both dual x86 machines, OK the X4200 is SAS [11:44:40] <dlg> storage on the x4200 is with a real controller, and it has intel nics [11:44:47] <DataStream> ahh [11:45:01] <benr> X4200 == Server, U40 == Workstation. [11:45:04] *** adam_bin has joined #opensolaris [11:45:18] <DataStream> and the X4200 sounds like a bowing 747 taking off in your living room!!! [11:45:19] <dlg> x4200 == real computer ;) [11:45:33] <benr> haha, Galaxy systems are loud. [11:45:46] <DataStream> I wish i could afford a couple more SAS drives for it [11:45:57] <benr> Joyent uses nothing but X4100, X4500, and T1000 systems... its nice. [11:45:58] <DataStream> but at 350 pounds each for 73gig, ill wait a while :P [11:46:01] <dlg> i wish someone would give me one of those machines [11:46:33] <benr> just buy a chunk of one from us. :) [11:46:39] <UnixTitan> benr: noticed ewl wasn't there. Good No problems I take it? [11:46:42] <DataStream> Im hopeing now with the M2 out, the dual core procs for my machine will start to come down in price [11:46:46] <dlg> you wont let me write drivers ona chunk of a box [11:47:11] <benr> UnixTitan: at last check it didn't have problems. [11:47:26] <UnixTitan> good gotta have that [11:47:26] <Gr|ffous> benr, will joyent let you publish any pictures of some of that great sun kit? [11:47:31] <UnixTitan> epsilon as well I hope [11:47:32] <benr> dlg: sure I will.... so long as you can do it in a zone. :) [11:47:35] <UnixTitan> ephoto needs to work too :) [11:47:50] <dlg> benr: maybe under a hypervisor, in a zone is probably impossible [11:47:57] <benr> Gr|ffous: :) [11:48:19] <benr> dlg: you could write your drivers, but you couldn't test 'em, basically. [11:48:24] <benr> so, probly not a lot of use. [11:48:27] <dlg> tehehe [11:48:27] <DataStream> lol [11:48:30] <dlg> i have vi on computers at home [11:48:47] <benr> ya, but that doesn't cost you anything! [11:48:53] <dlg> exactly [11:49:02] <benr> how are my kids supposed to eat. :) [11:49:07] <DataStream> Hey does anyone know if prtdiag is a little more comprehensive on 11/06 on x86? [11:49:08] *** loren_ has quit IRC [11:49:13] <dlg> cook the 24" lcd [11:49:25] <benr> :) [11:49:55] <benr> DataStream: what specifically? [11:50:06] <Stormy> what is solaris software 6? [11:50:11] <Auralis> UnixTitan: so, howw is the solaris experiance shaping up? [11:50:20] <DataStream> well for example, on 06/06 it doesnt even tell you how much ram there is [11:50:20] <DataStream> lol [11:50:38] <DataStream> its no where near what you get on sparc [11:50:48] <benr> use prtconf [11:50:54] <DataStream> just wonderd if they had added any more [11:51:25] <DataStream> benr: yeah i can use that for ram, i just used it as an example, [11:51:52] <DataStream> hey benr you still got your photons?/ [11:51:57] <benr> yes. [11:52:14] <Error_404> benr, btw, does joyent sell just a zone, that i can run postgres & glassfish (or tomcat because glassfish is a bloated pig) in? [11:52:15] <benr> but I use one to hold a cabnet door closed in my garage. :) [11:52:26] <DataStream> lol [11:52:46] <DataStream> I was looking on ebay for the US the other day, and the sun kit out there is just dirst cheap [11:52:51] <DataStream> espesially the arrays [11:52:51] <benr> Error_404: of course. [11:53:14] <DataStream> T3's are going for a couple of hundred dollaris [11:53:17] <DataStream> dollars [11:53:22] <DataStream> with drives [11:53:45] <benr> Error_404: Joyent Containers are zones on Nevada B43 with Blastwave apps on X4100's. [11:54:02] <benr> Cheapest ones atm are $125/mo. [11:55:17] <estibi> hi, when i type: zfs share pool0/pub i got: cannot share 'pool0/pub': share: fatal: libfsmgt.so.1: open failed: No such file or directory [11:55:22] <estibi> :/ [11:55:34] <Error_404> i'll put it on my list [11:55:46] <DataStream> benr: 1 quick thing, do you know if they fixed the long boot time problem on galaxy machines with 11/06? [11:55:55] <Error_404> (looking to deploy a business in a couple months) [11:56:18] <estibi> anyone can help me ? [11:56:27] <benr> DataStream: Boot time on Galaxy with B43 is less than 7 minutes, including BIOS/POST. [11:56:36] <benr> estibi: looking... [11:57:29] <benr> estibi: try 'zfs set sharenfs=on pool0/pub' [11:57:48] <benr> I've never used 'zfs share ...' before actually, but I'm looking in the bug database. [11:58:24] <UnixTitan> Auralis: very well [11:58:27] <UnixTitan> Its a challenge [11:58:30] <Auralis> cool [11:58:38] <UnixTitan> but thats what I like. [11:58:43] <UnixTitan> I love to learn [11:58:43] <benr> http://bugs.opensolaris.org/view_bug.do?bug_id=6496726 [11:59:08] <UnixTitan> Auralis: now. once I get e on here :) [11:59:43] <estibi> benr: zfs set sharenfs=on pool0/pub does the same, i will try to find and install missing packages .. [12:00:06] <UnixTitan> Auralis: I must say it boots faster than linux, but x is slower than linux, browsing is about the same, admin is better than linux [12:00:10] <estibi> i have snv53 with core networking ... [12:00:29] <mihaic> Hm.. estibi what are you on? [12:00:30] <mihaic> svn_54? [12:00:31] <hali> why does anyone install anything but full? [12:00:36] <DataStream> benr: ahh yeah seems to be fixed in snv_46 --> http://bugs.opensolaris.org/bugdatabase/view_bug.do?bug_id=6452642 [12:00:37] <benr> estibi: ya, did you look at that bug url? [12:00:38] <hali> at least of a test install [12:00:39] <estibi> nevada 53 [12:00:52] <DataStream> on 06/06 it takes forever!! [12:00:55] <mihaic> Well, I'm on 54, and use sharenfs quite a lot.. works fine... [12:01:02] <mihaic> Instant too [12:01:17] <Error_404> hali, i start with full and rip out the useless crap [12:01:19] <Error_404> like staroffice [12:01:24] <hali> yes [12:01:24] <benr> mihaic: do you have sharemgr running? [12:01:37] <Error_404> there's an option to customize your install somewhere along the line [12:01:41] <UnixTitan> I hear the atheros drivers are supported by default in nevada.. sounds nice. [12:01:44] <hali> sun should have a better selection in the installer (or a complete new installer) [12:01:53] <UnixTitan> is staroffice useless? what do you use instead? openoffice? [12:01:58] <Error_404> hali, better than being able to pick which packages to install? [12:01:59] <benr> a completely new installer is in the works. [12:02:19] <Error_404> UnixTitan, yes [12:02:26] <UnixTitan> ah [12:02:31] <UnixTitan> openoffice is better huh [12:02:36] <mihaic> benr: sorry, can't check until I get a Cisco VPN client for *NIX :) [12:02:39] <Error_404> UnixTitan, but on about half the machines i have solaris on, having an office suite is just silly [12:02:42] <mihaic> But I belive it is. [12:02:42] <Error_404> like my fileserver [12:02:52] <UnixTitan> Error_404: true [12:03:07] <hali> Error_404: package group selection... like the ability to deselect something like "office application" ... which excludes staroffice,gimp,evince etc [12:03:13] <Auralis> no it is not, but staroffice is still on version 7, starofice 8 is the same as current openoffice [12:03:19] <benr> mihaic: the short answer is: its a known issue with reduced network installs. [12:03:30] <UnixTitan> hali: gimp would probably be under graphics [12:03:37] <sickness> cisco sux :/ [12:03:37] <UnixTitan> with image viewers/editors [12:03:42] <hali> UnixTitan: possibly, but you get the idea at least :) [12:03:45] <Error_404> meh [12:03:46] <UnixTitan> yea ;D [12:04:05] <Error_404> the installer we've got now made sense at the time it was made, and now it's being replaced [12:05:09] <Error_404> ( "the time it was made" being what, sometime in the mid 90's now? ) [12:05:32] <UnixTitan> at least 10 years old :) [12:05:39] <DataStream> I like the solaris installer [12:06:02] <UnixTitan> it could use framebuffer.. [12:06:02] <hali> it's great if you compare it to the sunos4 installer ;) [12:06:07] <DataStream> Ill take that any day of the week over debians!! [12:06:10] <mihaic> Auralis: svn_54 has StarOffice 8. [12:06:13] <estibi> ok it works well, i have installed SUNWfsmgt[ur] :) [12:06:20] <Error_404> DataStream, you think that's painful? install openbsd [12:06:24] <estibi> thanks a lot [12:06:35] <mihaic> Error_404: what? [12:06:38] <hali> i actually quite like the opbenbsd installer..at least it's got package group selection! :) [12:06:41] <UnixTitan> DataStream: ncurses is decent :) [12:06:44] <mihaic> OpenBSD's installer is by FAR the simplest smartest installer. EVER. [12:07:01] <Error_404> mihaic, as long as you pay the $50 for the manual on how to use it [12:07:06] <DataStream> I like netbsd's installer as well, thats very simple [12:07:06] <hali> the only think openbsd could improve is the disk partitioning tool... [12:07:20] <Error_404> since the installer is basically just a hash prompt with no further instruction [12:07:33] <UnixTitan> hali: and the fact that e17 will not run on it. period. [12:07:38] <Error_404> Okay you're installing now -the openbsd team \n # [12:07:49] <Error_404> UnixTitan, seriously? why not? [12:07:51] <dlg> UnixTitan: ive run e17 on open [12:07:55] <UnixTitan> eh? [12:08:01] <UnixTitan> I've seen it run on free [12:08:02] <hali> UnixTitan: isn't that an e problem? [12:08:05] <Error_404> UnixTitan, is the e17 code that bad that it won't run across BSD's? [12:08:08] <UnixTitan> but on open it has bad lib issues [12:08:13] <UnixTitan> at least reported to us [12:08:16] <hali> UnixTitan: since openbsd got all that picky restricted X stuff [12:08:27] <dlg> no, no [12:08:31] <dlg> its a libc issue in openbsd [12:08:36] <UnixTitan> yes [12:08:42] <UnixTitan> bad lib issues as I said that were reported [12:08:46] <mihaic> libc is not GNU libc on OpenBSD. [12:08:47] <Gr|ffous> Happy New Year to all from .nz. Here's looking forward to another successful revolution of the sun :) [12:08:48] <UnixTitan> dlg: you hacked libc? [12:08:50] <dlg> e17 is ok [12:08:51] <hali> is it an issue if i ask theo? ior a feature ;) [12:08:58] <dlg> UnixTitan: i tried, i got scared [12:08:58] <Error_404> Gr|ffous, viva la revolucione [12:09:01] <mihaic> And e17 does NOT work on OpenBSD. PERIOD [12:09:03] <UnixTitan> dlg: :D [12:09:11] <dlg> mihaic: i got it working, so it does [12:09:34] <UnixTitan> dlg: would be nice if you could write some docs [12:09:47] <UnixTitan> we've been sent several can't be done reports [12:09:48] <mihaic> dlg: without modifying libc? [12:09:49] <dlg> id rather get open fixed than write docs [12:09:54] <mihaic> Did you submit a patch? :) [12:09:56] <UnixTitan> this is true [12:10:00] <mihaic> Did Theo yell at you? :) [12:10:05] <UnixTitan> I know one of the main guys that tried wrote the developer of open [12:10:09] <dlg> no, he did look disgusted though [12:10:18] <mihaic> Figures :) [12:10:44] <dlg> still, we should support e17 [12:10:49] <dlg> its ok code [12:10:52] <dlg> and its pretty [12:10:57] <sickness> what's the problem in building a port? [12:11:04] <dlg> there already is a port [12:11:11] <dlg> but cos libc sucks we havent committed it [12:11:14] <sickness> gnome/kde/fluxbox and all have ports/packages for openbsd, so I don't see big problems here... [12:11:25] <UnixTitan> dlg: when I write on e/ewl/ephoto we do everything in our power not to commit a single line that breaks it on _ANY_ unix based os [12:11:49] <UnixTitan> every lib used.. every dep.. has to be accessible to all unixes. [12:12:01] <dlg> UnixTitan: eet uses %a [12:12:04] <dlg> which is a c99 feature [12:12:17] <UnixTitan> simple simple fix to that [12:12:22] <UnixTitan> #define [12:12:23] <UnixTitan> :) [12:12:34] <dlg> what are you going to replace it with? [12:12:45] <dlg> %a is voodoo [12:12:50] <UnixTitan> raster won't change it apparently. [12:12:53] <dlg> if you're going to replace it you may as well fix it in openbsd [12:12:58] <dlg> he shouldnt have to [12:13:05] <dlg> we've had the discussion already [12:13:16] <mihaic> Yeah, mailing lists are full of this also [12:13:36] <dlg> toast, bbl [12:13:50] <mihaic> Toats... is it new year yet? [12:14:19] <Gr|ffous> it is here... [12:14:46] <Gr|ffous> # date [12:14:46] <Gr|ffous> Monday, 1 January 2007 12:14:32 AM NZDT :) [12:14:48] <mihaic> Odd how I keep spending all my new year's eves in front of a damn computer terminal [12:15:07] <UnixTitan> mihaic: go out and get some booty [12:15:17] <UnixTitan> lets what I plan on doing tonight :) [12:15:54] <benr> sleep time. [12:15:57] <benr> night guys. [12:15:59] *** benr has quit IRC [12:16:00] <mihaic> Night... [12:16:21] <UnixTitan> mihaic: course, I'm sure you are much older than me :) [12:16:36] <mihaic> Heh [12:16:44] <UnixTitan> as most in here are [12:16:59] <mihaic> Quite a few UNIX granpas' around :) [12:17:09] <UnixTitan> lol [12:17:22] <mihaic> Even some grandmas :) [12:17:26] <UnixTitan> hehe [12:17:29] <UnixTitan> like Auralis? [12:17:34] <UnixTitan> A Burnt! [12:17:37] <UnixTitan> hahaha j/k :) [12:17:56] *** deather_ has joined #opensolaris [12:18:21] *** deather has quit IRC [12:20:06] <Stormy> how do i turn X login off in open solaris? [12:20:22] <Error_404> disable dtlogin [12:20:25] <mihaic> svcadm disable dtlogin? [12:20:30] <Error_404> i don't remember the exact FMRI [12:20:41] <mihaic> svcs, see what's reported.. [12:21:00] *** estibi has quit IRC [12:21:17] *** estibi has joined #opensolaris [12:21:28] *** ethospi_ has joined #opensolaris [12:22:03] <phips> Stormy: I think it's cde-login, the FMRI [12:26:07] <sickness> svc:/application/graphical-login/cde-login:default [12:26:29] <sickness> this as of snv54, but I see other curious things like svc:/application/graphical-login/gdm:default [12:27:11] <Stormy> wow this seems to be fase [12:27:58] <Stormy> t [12:28:41] <Gr|ffous> yeah, I became very confused [12:29:09] <Gr|ffous> it would seem that although I've never run cde, and don't intend on running it. I actually want cde-login, not gdm2, that doesn't work [12:29:40] <Gr|ffous> I assume they are just paving the way for the transition, and it hasn't happened yet... [12:30:07] <Stormy> ok so how do i run linux binaries in solaris? [12:30:16] <Error_404> google brandZ [12:30:19] <Error_404> or lxrun [12:30:20] <Stormy> k [12:31:02] <Error_404> i like dtgreet [12:31:09] <Error_404> it's pretty [12:31:34] <mihaic> It's purple ;P [12:32:16] <Gr|ffous> *grin* [12:33:07] <Auralis> i like the simplicity of dtreet, the old pre sol 10 style, it just looks professionell with the wide banner style gretting [12:33:29] *** adam_bin has quit IRC [12:34:58] <cmihai> ping? [12:35:15] <hali> pong! [12:35:16] <Auralis> pong [12:36:58] <cmihai> w00t [12:37:00] <cmihai> vpnc works :] [12:37:26] <cmihai> Bloody simple to setup too.. compared to the Cisco vpn client.. brrr. [12:37:29] <Stormy> how do i configure networking? [12:39:33] <Error_404> Stormy, here: http://docs.sun.com/app/docs/coll/47.16 [12:39:42] <Stormy> thx [12:39:54] <Error_404> everything you ever wanted to know about solaris administration [12:45:30] <Stormy> http://www.opensolaris.org/os/community/brandz/install/ [12:45:39] <Stormy> when i type in global# svcadm enable svc:/system/filesystem/volfs:default [12:45:55] <estibi> witch package includes 'ldd' ? [12:46:06] <Stormy> i'm getting Pattern: 'svc:/system/filesystem/volfs:default' doesn't match any intances [12:46:29] <tsoome> what solaris? [12:46:45] <Stormy> open solaris express [12:46:50] <Stormy> or what ever it's called [12:46:59] <Stormy> snv_54 [12:47:08] <tsoome> volfs was removed afaik [12:47:15] <tsoome> and replaced [12:47:25] <Stormy> with? [12:47:27] <Stormy> If you intend to install from CD, you must enable volfs on your system and verify that it is running. [12:47:44] <tsoome> check docs.sun.com whats new in solaris [12:47:44] <estibi> which* package includes 'ldd' ? [12:48:52] *** rgl has quit IRC [12:48:55] <tsoome> SUNWtoo [12:49:41] <estibi> tsoome: thanks [12:50:52] <Stormy> what did they replace it with? [12:51:05] *** bunker has joined #opensolaris [12:51:08] *** mihaic has quit IRC [12:51:12] <Gr|ffous> hald [12:51:21] <estibi> :/ [12:51:24] <estibi> ldd /usr/sbin/sharemgr | grep found [12:51:35] <estibi> libfsmgt.so.1 => (file not found) [12:51:58] <estibi> pkginfo | grep fsmgt [12:52:07] <estibi> system SUNWfsmgtr Solaris Local File System Management APIs (root) [12:52:10] <estibi> system SUNWfsmgtu Solaris Local File System Management APIs (usr) [12:52:17] <estibi> :/ [12:53:32] <hali> estibi: perhaps a reinstall with a full install might be in order? [12:53:32] *** mega has joined #opensolaris [12:53:40] *** lplatypus has quit IRC [12:54:34] <estibi> but 1 hour ago it works ... [12:55:10] <Gr|ffous> /usr/lib/libfsmgt.so.1 is owned by SUNWdmgtu on my system, if that's of any help to you? [12:57:01] <estibi> i will try to reinstall these packages .. [12:58:52] <Gr|ffous> good luck :) [13:05:11] <estibi> Gr|ffous: after reinstall SUNWdmgtu it works again, thanks :) [13:05:40] *** vmhobbes has quit IRC [13:05:46] <Gr|ffous> cool! :) [13:23:23] *** Orac has joined #opensolaris [13:25:30] <Stormy> is there some trick to make nvidia network cards work? [13:37:52] *** keel has joined #opensolaris [13:43:24] <Gr|ffous> yeah, there is [13:43:29] <Gr|ffous> which one do you have? [13:46:03] <Stormy> i have one of the nge's [13:46:07] <Stormy> nvidia 6100 [13:46:10] <Stormy> i found this [13:46:27] <Stormy> http://www.mail-archive.com/opensolaris-discuss at opensolaris dot org/msg15801.html [13:46:30] <Stormy> and that sounds about right [13:46:38] <Gr|ffous> for mine, I had to use a 3rd party driver - nfo [13:46:49] <Stormy> oh? [13:46:54] <Stormy> from nvidia or somethin? [13:46:55] <cmihai> Check opensolaris.org comunites, they have drivers. [13:47:26] <Gr|ffous> mine was an onboard nforce ultra one, yours is probably different :) [13:48:21] <Stormy> mine is an onboard 6100 nforce [13:48:25] <Stormy> basically an nforce 4 [13:48:32] <Stormy> but in the business model package [13:49:06] <Gr|ffous> hmm, well take a look at the nfo driver [13:49:29] <Gr|ffous> I remember mine was supposedly covered by the standard drivers, but it never worked [13:50:15] <Gr|ffous> and my other nic was a gig nic that is meant to work with the marvl gig driver, nope, had to go oem to get that working [13:50:21] <Stormy> http://blogs.sun.com/jmcp/entry/nge_ultra20_nevada_no_packets [13:50:40] <Stormy> whats wierd was my nic was set to the rgii and i moved it to mii [13:55:16] *** Gman has joined #opensolaris [13:55:27] <richlowe> Hey Gman. [13:55:50] <Gman> hey dude, seasons greetings :) [13:55:55] <Gr|ffous> merry new year Gman [13:56:05] <Gman> hey Gr|ffous [13:56:06] <Gr|ffous> is in 2007 way down there yet ;) [13:56:13] <richlowe> Gman: you back in a timezone where it's tomorrow now? [13:56:15] <Gman> i'm actually in ireland :) [13:56:24] * Gr|ffous is [13:56:47] <Gman> leave here for paris on the 2nd, leave paris for london on the 5th, then back in new zealand on the 12th...for 2 days and then i'm over to sydney :) [13:56:50] <Gr|ffous> where are you based richlowe? [13:57:00] * Gman has to keep up richlowe's expectations ;) [13:57:06] <Gr|ffous> working holiday? [13:57:23] <Gman> Gr|ffous, mostly holiday, though working bits and pieces through it [13:58:21] <Gr|ffous> do you come back via auckland? [13:59:24] <Gman> Gr|ffous, nope, unfortunately [13:59:34] <Gr|ffous> aw, I wanted to buy you a beer [13:59:51] <Gman> though i'm in Warkworth for 2-4th feb? :) [14:00:20] <Gr|ffous> ah cool, remind me closer to the time :) [14:00:27] <Gman> so passing through auckland - could be good to meet up then? [14:00:31] <Gman> will do [14:02:45] *** Orac2 has joined #opensolaris [14:03:23] <richlowe> I'm in the eastern US. [14:05:37] <Gr|ffous> well, must be getting to bed. Night all [14:06:45] <Orac2> Sleep well. [14:14:12] *** Kmays has joined #opensolaris [14:16:38] <Error_404> "Fonts and You, or: Why does my desktop look like ass?" [14:17:35] *** yarihm has joined #OpenSolaris [14:21:52] *** lplatypus has joined #opensolaris [14:22:28] <lplatypus> happy new year [14:22:39] <Orac2> Happy New Year lplatypus [14:27:13] *** LordKing has joined #opensolaris [14:29:28] <FireflyST> hey, question for you guys, is there some way to make the windowsystem change the resolution of the monitor on the fly when I run a program? When I launch Monkey Island 3 under ScummVM the video sequences are unwatchable when you res-double it. [14:30:09] <Stormy> Does someone have the Solaris 10 x86 6/06 cd/dvd's burnt that could pull the SUNWnge package off and send it to me please? [14:30:45] <sickness> FireflyST: uhm, are you using Xsun or Xorg? Xorg *should* already do this... iirc [14:31:04] <cmihai> XOrg can do CtrlAlt+- to change res on the fly with the ones you set in xorg.conf [14:31:10] <cmihai> Or you can just change res by hand [14:31:23] <tsoome> Stormy: you don't have an iso? [14:31:23] *** UnixTitan has quit IRC [14:31:32] <Stormy> not of solaris 10 6/06 for x86 [14:31:43] <FireflyST> does that also work on Sparc? [14:31:46] <Stormy> i guess i need that exact release [14:32:05] <tsoome> just an sec [14:32:21] <cmihai> FireflyST: probably not. [14:32:31] <cmihai> Since you're probably stuck with XSun? [14:32:44] <FireflyST> cause I get the error "The XServer does not support the XRandR extension. Runtime resolution changes to the display size are not available." when I try to change resolution in JDE on this thing [14:34:08] <sickness> FireflyST: oh, so this pretty explains that behaviour :/ [14:34:38] <sickness> FireflyST: you could try to use Xorg on sparc instead of Xsun, bur I really don't know if it's feasible even if it has the drivers for your video card... YMMV [14:34:41] <FireflyST> just curious if you guys knew a trick to get around it [14:34:49] <delewis> sickness, Xorg is not available on SPARC. [14:35:01] <FireflyST> I just have a creator3d, it's not anything special [14:35:04] *** qdk has quit IRC [14:35:09] <delewis> FireflyST, no, XrandR is an XFree86 extension [14:35:12] <delewis> hence why Xorg has it. [14:35:21] <delewis> and Xsun does not [14:35:23] <cmihai> Doesn't matter, you can't do it on XSun. [14:35:30] <richlowe> You could in theory build xorg for sparc, you'd just only have support for about 2 framebuffers. [14:35:33] <richlowe> maybe. [14:35:41] <delewis> richlowe, bit more than that, I think. [14:35:58] <FireflyST> I'm sure creator3d is in there, it's super common [14:35:59] <delewis> tgx, creator, and expert/elite, I think. [14:36:00] <richlowe> I thought it was just cgsix and one other one. [14:36:03] <sickness> delewis: omg, what a pity :'| didn't know that, I was sure that it was available :/ [14:36:32] <FireflyST> ewww [14:36:39] <FireflyST> god, cgsix is ancient [14:36:48] <delewis> sickness, this is why it is important to have a decent framebuffer capable of doing OpenGL if you want to watch fullscreen video. Xsun also lacks Xvideo which does hardware video scaling. [14:37:01] <delewis> so other than OpenGL, there is no way to do hardware video scaling in Xsun. [14:37:20] <FireflyST> oh, well that explains the video bog [14:37:46] <Kmays> XSun = pre Xorg 6.8 fork [14:37:59] <delewis> Kmays, that's an understatement. [14:38:06] <cmihai> Pre XFree fork [14:38:09] <delewis> it's based off of the original MIT X11R6 sources. [14:38:16] <delewis> *way* before Xorg or XFree86. [14:38:48] <FireflyST> So what the heck do the Open Solaris distros include? [14:39:01] <cmihai> XOrg works on x86. [14:39:02] <delewis> FireflyST, Solaris includes Xorg and Xsun. [14:39:21] <delewis> most OpenSolaris distributions; however, only run on x86, so Xorg is usually only shipped. [14:39:34] <delewis> MarTuX ships Xorg, but framebuffer support is limited. [14:39:36] <FireflyST> oh, but Xorg only works on x86 [14:39:39] <FireflyST> gotcha [14:39:45] <delewis> FireflyST, it doesn't only work on x86. [14:39:50] <delewis> it also works on SPARC, but device support is limited. [14:39:52] <Error_404> this can't be right... can this be right?... according to prstat, xorg is eating up 52M of rss [14:40:00] <delewis> Error_404, consider yourself lucky [14:40:15] <delewis> with a Firefox or Mozilla session running that can easily get to 250-500MB [14:40:18] <FireflyST> I wonder if there's a definitive list somewhere of supported framebuffers [14:40:19] <delewis> they like to store pixmaps [14:40:42] <Error_404> well the total size is like, 380M [14:40:42] <delewis> 562 dlewis 249M 127M sleep 59 0 1:45:53 1.9% Xsun/1 [14:41:21] <cmihai> eh [14:41:36] <FireflyST> about the video scaling though, that's the only part of the game that's slow. The rest of it is just fine and fast [14:41:57] <delewis> FireflyST, yes, it's doing software scaling most likely. [14:42:04] <delewis> and that's going to be painful. [14:42:08] <delewis> what kind of hardware? [14:42:15] <cmihai> Yeah, software scaling never works. [14:42:20] <delewis> 00400000 103136K rw--- [ heap ] [14:42:22] <Kmays> Myself and Martin Bochnig ported Xorg 6.8.2 and 6.9 to SPARC...Martin has gotten most of the legacy drivers to work and I have the latest TGX,PGX32/64,XVR100 drivers for XSun (all closed source). [14:43:02] <FireflyST> delewis: U10/440 [14:43:12] <delewis> FireflyST, yes, that's going to be slow. [14:43:17] <delewis> PCI framebuffer, too, I bet? [14:43:30] <FireflyST> delewis: Creator3D is UPA [14:43:50] <delewis> at least that's not a bottleneck [14:44:15] <delewis> doing fullscreen video at say 1024x768 true color would bring a 32-bit/33MHz PCI bus to its knees. [14:44:18] <FireflyST> delewis: Probably explains the actual game portion being more than playable. [14:44:47] <richlowe> Error_404: only 52M? [14:45:10] <FireflyST> delewis: I'm very impressed with this box, its beat the pants off of any other 440MHz piece of equipment I've seen. [14:45:16] <Kmays> The Sun OpenGL part is the issue for OpenGL ICD stuff across all device drivers (worth the time and trouble...XVR-100 is the only one I saw worth the effort for 3D work). [14:45:33] <delewis> Kmays, yes, Elite3D and Expert3D suck for OpenGL. [14:45:38] <delewis> they have defunct texture memory. [14:45:46] <Kmays> ;> [14:46:01] <richlowe> XVR-100 "isn't 3d" last I looked. [14:46:16] <richlowe> (by which I mean, while a radeon7k, it's sold for 2d, and they don't ship GL drivers) [14:46:31] <delewis> that's what gdamore said [14:47:59] <Kmays> FireMV is marketed that way now (wasn't when it first came out). ATI 7000 is 'ok', but not for current OpenGL implementations - much like the Permedia 2. [14:48:36] <FireflyST> wow, I'm stuck between a rock and a hard place here, if I put in an XVR-100, it's going to bog on the PCI bus, but X.org works. If I stick with this, my scaled video is slow. [14:49:09] <FireflyST> sounds like all I can do is hope for a Creator3D driver for X.org [14:49:20] *** qdk has joined #opensolaris [14:49:25] <delewis> you definitely want to stick with UPA unless you have 66MHz/64-bit PCI slots. [14:49:36] <delewis> take a look at the XVR-1000 :-) [14:50:10] <delewis> you might also want to read the tech specs on the Ultra 5/Ultra 10. If they have multiple PCI buses it shouldn't be too bad to use a PCI framebuffer, either. [14:50:11] <FireflyST> is that UPA? [14:50:16] <delewis> FireflyST, yes [14:50:22] <delewis> and it will do fullscreen OpenGL video :-) [14:50:37] <FireflyST> wait, do later machines than U10 have UPA slots? [14:50:42] <delewis> of course [14:50:47] *** keel has quit IRC [14:50:48] <delewis> Blade 1000/2000 have 2xUPA slots [14:50:53] <FireflyST> oh wow [14:50:55] <delewis> (UPA was Sun's answer to AGP) [14:51:26] <richlowe> they have one decent pci slot, too, I think. Though I forget which it is. [14:51:27] <FireflyST> are XVR-1000s horrendously expensive? [14:51:32] <delewis> early on, it was superior for PIO; however, AGP vendors have surpassed UPA by brute-force. [14:51:37] <richlowe> (and I think it's on the same bus as the FC, so sticking a crappy card in there maybe unwise) [14:52:00] <delewis> FireflyST, they run around $200-$500 [14:52:05] <delewis> if you're lucky you can get one for around $300 [14:52:06] <lplatypus> xorg has a creator3d driver called "sunffb"... i think it's intended for linux/sparc [14:52:34] <FireflyST> ehh, well I paid $15 for this thing, I don't think I'd invest that [14:53:05] <FireflyST> I'd sooner put that toward a dual-CPU Blade1000/2000 or something [14:53:26] <delewis> yes, there are other bottlenecks you'd have to deal with on an Ultra 10. [14:53:41] <Kmays> Although most people use glxgears, you can run 'Really Slick Screensavers' and run the Solar Winds and Skyrocket screensavers...it'll tell you if your OpenGL drivers or card are performing well VERY quickly. [14:53:46] <delewis> though, UPA does have interconnect memory, as well [14:53:50] <delewis> so it might *not* be that bad. [14:54:08] <delewis> (you'd need to move textures and so fourth between memory and the memory on the framebuffer) [14:55:05] <FireflyST> Where does one check the screensaver in JDE? [14:56:06] <Kmays> http://www.reallyslick.com/ [14:57:58] <delewis> http://www.sun.com/desktop/products/graphics/upawhitepaper_jan99.pdf [14:58:05] <delewis> good whitepaper if you're interested in UPA. [14:58:34] <delewis> though, it is entertaining to read the Elite3D is a high-performance framebuffer :-) [14:59:23] <PerterB> graphics hardware has come on a ways since 1999.... [14:59:26] *** Fish has left #opensolaris [14:59:38] <delewis> PerterB, even then, the Elite3D was pretty shitty, compared to the rest of the market. [15:00:01] <delewis> particularly, what SGI was a putting out. [15:00:09] <delewis> s/a// [15:00:28] <Kmays> Hmm, what about the XVR-2500 :) [15:00:34] <PerterB> true... but then again most desktops I used round then were stuck with cgsix or m64 frame buffers [15:00:55] <delewis> PerterB, peak UPA bandwidth in 1999 was ~ 950MB/s [15:01:00] <delewis> peak XIO bandwidth in 1999 was 3.2GB/s [15:02:29] <delewis> and an Octane wasn't that much more expensive than an Ultra 60. [15:02:40] <delewis> base-level Octane ran around $37,000. [15:02:47] *** Fish has joined #opensolaris [15:02:53] <cmihai> Heh, and to think you can get one now for little under 1000 [15:03:06] <delewis> much less than $1000 in most cases :-) [15:03:19] <delewis> I've seen decent Octane2 configurations for under $400. [15:03:22] <cmihai> *only* a 40x drop in prices :) [15:03:30] <delewis> cmihai, E4500s are even worse.. [15:03:37] <delewis> $180,000 to $500. [15:03:37] <cmihai> Yeah, I know. [15:03:49] <cmihai> Just seen 14CPU/14GB for 800 [15:04:42] <delewis> HP, believe it or not, had some fairly decent graphics workstations in 1999. [15:04:53] <cmihai> Heh [15:04:54] <Stormy> so why does open solaris hate my dual p3? [15:05:05] <cmihai> Nothing descent about HP if you ask me [15:05:12] <_syphilis_> Stormy: could you be more specific? [15:05:13] <delewis> cmihai, not before Carly, anyway :-) [15:05:16] <delewis> er after* [15:05:17] <Stormy> Ok [15:05:27] * delewis misses his J2240 :-( [15:05:37] <delewis> 2x180MHz PA-RISC procs and 2GB of memory [15:05:39] <Stormy> I was having a locking problem with the installer [15:05:44] <Stormy> for open solaris [15:05:54] <tsoome> locking? [15:06:06] <cmihai> got a rp3440.. 2x1000Mhz PA-RISC [15:06:11] <cmihai> Pretty descent machine I guess. [15:06:12] <Stormy> 1 out of every two times i booted the cd ( total of 4 times ) [15:06:20] <delewis> http://www.mech.northwestern.edu/ampl/pics/jbox5.gif [15:06:23] <tsoome> installer did freeze? [15:06:25] <Stormy> twice it locked at the configing /dev screent [15:06:32] <Stormy> then the other two times [15:06:35] <Stormy> the installer froze [15:06:42] <Stormy> both at copying data [15:06:47] <Stormy> first time @ 0mb copies [15:06:52] <Stormy> the 2nd 500mb copied [15:07:01] <Stormy> now i used my amd64 and installed open solaris to the drive [15:07:02] <_syphilis_> Stormy: which opensolaris are you using? solaris express? [15:07:02] <delewis> HP knew how to make large, impressive deskside systems :-) [15:07:11] <Stormy> moved it back the dual p3 box [15:07:14] <Stormy> it starts grub [15:07:21] <Kmays> SPARC laptops...well the Tadpoles need a better 3D GPU to compete with their x86/x64 counterparts [15:07:24] <Stormy> it starts the solaris kernel for x86 32bit [15:07:40] <Stormy> shows me the first 3 lines of the startup of the kernle [15:07:43] <cmihai> SPARC laptops are a major waste of money [15:07:44] <Stormy> then reboots [15:07:45] <delewis> Kmays, they can never compete with peecee laptop vendors. [15:07:50] <Stormy> snv_54 32bit [15:08:00] <cmihai> Could be worse... PowerPC laptops.. prep laptops that run AIX [15:08:03] <delewis> peecee vendors blow them out with pure volume sales. [15:08:07] <Stormy> i have two of those cmihai [15:08:11] <cmihai> heh [15:08:32] <delewis> that doesn't beat the SGI Indy laptop :-) [15:08:35] <Stormy> so it walks in a reboot loop [15:08:44] <hali> the army loves their sparc laptops [15:09:17] <sickness> delewis: is that ever existed? =) [15:09:20] <delewis> sickness, yes [15:09:23] <sickness> omg =) [15:09:24] <delewis> not very many, though [15:09:27] <Doc> happy new year! [15:09:35] <delewis> they had one on "Twister" [15:09:39] <cmihai> happy new year :) [15:09:49] <delewis> yes, that terrible tornado movie. [15:10:12] <cmihai> Bunch of hopeless geeks :P... irc-ing on new years eve ;) [15:10:13] <sickness> http://www.schrotthal.de/sgi/indy/us_military_indy_laptop-rare_2.html <- ghgh =) [15:10:26] <cmihai> 0_o [15:10:31] <cmihai> Damn [15:10:33] <cmihai> I want one [15:10:38] <sickness> it's still 15:10 here, I'd go out this evening, but yeah, as a geek, I'd prefer to stay at home :P [15:10:45] <sickness> I'll go out [15:10:45] <delewis> looks like a briefcase bomb :-) [15:10:48] <Kmays> SunOS Release 5.11 snv_b54 64-bit - on AMD64 system [15:11:01] <Stormy> yea i know [15:11:05] <cmihai> delewis: yeah, you can tell people it's "russian nuclear briefcase" [15:11:12] <Stormy> i installed that and it ran fine [15:11:13] <delewis> cmihai, by thinking precisely :-) [15:11:32] <delewis> Russian accent and an Indy laptop will get you places in life. [15:11:32] <Doc> Monday January 1 01:10:06 EST 2007 [15:11:37] *** mega_ has joined #opensolaris [15:11:40] <Doc> (give or take a few minutes - i really need to setup NTP) [15:12:02] <delewis> I'm lazy with my NTP configuration [15:12:09] <cmihai> Got an OpenNTPD server here, it's great. [15:12:10] <sickness> eheh [15:12:11] <cmihai> Simple to setup too. [15:12:20] <delewis> I just cp /etc/inet/ntp.server to /etc/inet/ntp.conf, edit a line or two, drop the ACL stuff out [15:12:21] <sickness> cmihai: yeah, so nice [15:13:59] <Kmays> In JDS: Launch -> Preferences - > Screensaver / ScreenResolution [15:14:50] <FireflyST> no wonder [15:14:57] <FireflyST> that part is broken because of xsun [15:21:42] *** qdk has quit IRC [15:26:33] *** darkcmd has joined #opensolaris [15:29:29] *** mega has quit IRC [15:30:04] <richlowe> that part uses XRandR I believe. [15:30:16] <richlowe> I thought the modeswitching with -/+ was independent of that. [15:30:23] <richlowe> (it worked before XRandR existed, for a start) [15:30:28] <richlowe> ... at least in xfree86. [15:31:01] <FireflyST> how do I get the reallyslick screensavers to show up in my listing? I ran the blastwave install for it. [15:36:55] <Stric> richlowe: ctrl-alt-+/- was independent of xrandr, yes... but it didn't change resolution in the frame buffer, only what was sent to the monitor.. [15:37:14] <Kmays> Tell me what you get when you do /opt/csw/bin/rs-euphoria [15:38:40] <FireflyST> a really cool colorful thing [15:40:33] <Kmays> (You'd have to link the files in the directory of where the xscreensavers exist which is normally in /usr/openwin/lib/xscreensaver{/hacks}) [15:41:05] *** nbkk6fo__ has joined #opensolaris [15:41:06] *** nbkk6fo_ has quit IRC [15:41:09] <Kmays> (and {/bin, /config} [15:41:20] <Kmays> ) [15:42:31] <Kmays> Distros kinda put things where they want sometimes so I don't do this by default. [15:46:10] <Kmays> rs-skyrocket and rs-hyperspace will also show you if your OpenGL performance is working 'well enough' [15:47:32] <FireflyST> heh, skyrocket is SLOW [15:47:48] <Stric> no problem here [15:47:53] <FireflyST> it's possible my OpenGL drivers aren't set up for Creator3D though [15:48:14] <Stric> FireflyST: seems to be textured stuff, which c3d lacks accel for [15:48:26] <Kmays> :) [15:50:16] <Stric> 382 fps in 1680x1050 here ;) [15:50:21] <Kmays> Firefly <- What machine you have? [15:51:49] <Kmays> U10/440? [15:52:08] <FireflyST> yeah [15:52:11] <FireflyST> with creator3d [15:52:34] <FireflyST> I'm not complaining about the performance of a $15 box [15:52:36] <Stric> maybe this core2duo with geforce7600gt is a tad faster then ;) [15:52:43] <estibi> what is the simplest way to backup ROOT partition (slice) ? [15:53:12] <FireflyST> THis is fine till I have enough cash for the Blade 2000 I want [15:53:55] <richlowe> fssnap and ufsdump. [15:54:20] <Kmays> Hey, $15 is a steal for a U10 with a Creator3D. [15:54:29] <estibi> i am going to BFUing my nevada box and i want do backup before [15:54:43] <delewis> FireflyST, unless you get a decent framebuffer for the SB1000/SB2000, video, etc. will be just as lousy as your $15 system. [15:54:55] <FireflyST> Some of the concerns I have won't matter once my SunPCi card comes in the mail [15:55:14] *** jsubl2 has joined #opensolaris [15:55:21] <FireflyST> delewis: True, but the Blade is worth spending the money for the FB on, where the U10 is not. [15:56:02] <delewis> FireflyST, there are no architectural reasons why the Ultra 10 couldn't handle an XVR-1000, though. [15:56:39] <FireflyST> delewis: You think I should just buy the XVR-1000 now and put it in the U10, then move it to the Blade when I get it? [15:56:49] <Kmays> delewis <- Only that we have the XVR-2500 solution in which things like Project LookingGlass and other OpenGL projects may be of concern. [15:57:33] <delewis> FireflyST, I think that would be best. If you get satisfactory performance with an XVR-1000 on an Ultra 10, there's no reason to migrate unless your workload changes from video to something more CPU or IO-intensive. [15:58:06] <FireflyST> delewis: also, the software scaling on the Blade will also be significantly faster because of the flat out faster CPUs [15:58:28] <delewis> FireflyST, you won't be doing software scaling with an XVR-1000. [15:59:30] <delewis> http://poolmgr.informatik.uni-freiburg.de/extern/admin-doc/sun/sb1500/xvr1000_whitepaper.pdf [15:59:36] <delewis> it's an impressive framebuffer. [15:59:43] <FireflyST> delewis: Oh I know, I was just saying the Blade will be quite a bit faster raw-speedwise than the U10 anyway [16:01:16] <delewis> FireflyST, definitely. [16:01:40] <delewis> it's up to you, but I'm just making the observation right now that the problem is the framebuffer. A faster system CPU-wise isn't going to fix that. [16:01:46] <Kmays> FireFly <- Just make sure you can run a 1080p video stream on it!! :) [16:02:00] <Kmays> {Just kidding} [16:03:11] *** cneira has joined #opensolaris [16:03:14] <FireflyST> lol [16:03:36] <FireflyST> hey, I may hook it up to my TV, but then again, my TV only does 480i [16:03:59] <FireflyST> 480p sorry [16:04:49] <cneira> what version of staroffice comes with solaris express ? [16:04:56] <Kmays> 8 [16:05:35] <cneira> great [16:06:50] <Kmays> Delewis < Isn't the XVR-1000 EOLed? eBayyed? [16:07:25] <delewis> Kmays, yeah. [16:09:02] <Gman> hrm, mailman archives still down :( [16:10:15] *** philuk86 has joined #opensolaris [16:11:13] <philuk86> is there anyone in here familiar with libzfs? [16:16:03] <cneira> anyone using a lx zone to develop in linux ? [16:22:41] *** cneira has quit IRC [16:25:15] *** hile_ has joined #opensolaris [16:26:12] *** yarihm has quit IRC [16:29:12] *** edwardocallaghan has joined #opensolaris [16:29:22] <edwardocallaghan> Hi [16:29:46] <edwardocallaghan> Does anyone know where firefox hides in solaris? [16:29:58] <tsoome> .oO man find ? [16:30:03] <edwardocallaghan> Trying to install flash [16:30:36] <quasi> edwardocallaghan: grep firefox /var/sadm/install/contents [16:31:46] <FireflyST> Kmays: is there some file that has all the xscreensaver hacks plus the realslick hacks that I can paste into my $HOME/.xscreensaver? [16:36:41] <edwardocallaghan> This keyborad is shit and the pipe does not work [16:36:58] <edwardocallaghan> can you send it over so i can copy it [16:40:22] <timeless> http://www.webwizardry.net/~timeless/solaris/plocate [16:40:33] * timeless has a slightly smarter version on swift :( [16:41:17] <edwardocallaghan> Can some one please send me a pipe [16:41:28] <edwardocallaghan> They key is broken ??? [16:41:47] <timeless> edwardocallaghan: change keylayouts [16:42:10] *** jsubl2 has quit IRC [16:43:00] <edwardocallaghan> No they keybroad is non sun and its broken [16:43:11] <edwardocallaghan> ah [16:43:22] <edwardocallaghan> All I wanted was this | [16:43:30] <edwardocallaghan> I found it in the topic [16:43:36] <timeless> seriously, there are dozens of layouts available [16:43:43] <timeless> pick a different one [16:45:02] <edwardocallaghan> Yea but thats know good if half the keys don't work on they keybroad [16:45:59] * timeless suggests edward get a nice working usb keyboard and plug it in [16:46:08] <timeless> we have dozens lying around my office [16:46:20] <timeless> heck, steal one from your neighbor, he won't miss it today [16:46:26] <delewis> a Type 6 kit is dirt cheap. [16:46:49] <timeless> and if she objects, you probably she move away from the computer; closer to her and do something else for the rest of the day [16:47:57] <Auralis> you want a type 7 [16:48:38] <edwardocallaghan> Mate its something that has to do me for the moment [16:48:41] <delewis> that, or a Type 5/USB conversion kit. [16:48:43] <delewis> :-) [16:48:44] *** jteo has joined #opensolaris [16:48:49] <jteo> hello * [16:48:54] <delewis> greetings, jteo [16:49:01] <edwardocallaghan> All I bloody wanted was some one to copy/paste a | [16:49:32] <edwardocallaghan> Hi delewis [16:49:33] *** iakovz has joined #opensolaris [16:49:37] <iakovz> zuuum [16:49:40] *** logic has quit IRC [16:49:43] <Stric> edwardocallaghan: hint: start vim and type :digraph, that will give you a list of keys to copy/paste.. saved me a bunch of times :) [16:50:04] <timeless> personally i use web browsers [16:50:23] <jteo> delewis: hello. [16:50:29] <edwardocallaghan> ?Vim is a text editor [16:50:29] <jteo> ugly discussion on slashdot. -sigh- [16:50:32] <timeless> javascript:b='';for (a = 0; a < 255; ++a) b+=String.fromCharCode(a); b [16:50:42] <edwardocallaghan> Thanks Stric [16:50:47] <Stric> Anyhow, have a good time, I won't be back until next year.. happy new opensolaris year to you people! [16:50:53] <timeless> jteo: you mean the one about the article predicting opensolaris would take over the world next year? [16:50:56] <delewis> jteo, what discussion? [16:51:00] <delewis> Linux ready for 'prime-time'? [16:51:01] <jteo> timeless: yes. [16:51:02] <delewis> :-) [16:51:02] <Doc> umm.. it _is_ next year! [16:51:11] <Stric> Doc: in 7h here ;) [16:51:12] <jteo> Time is relative. [16:51:19] <timeless> doc: not all of us are in japan [16:51:22] <iakovz> guys, my Xsun fails to start: "Symbol xf86ExecX86int10 from module /usr/openwin/../libvbe.a is unresolved!!" i use XF86-SiS M650 driver [16:52:00] <timeless> tjeo: i think "space is relative" [16:52:10] <iakovz> is VBE kind of extension; i want to turn it off. is it possble? [16:52:13] <edwardocallaghan> I got to admit Fedora is a better Desktop OS then Solaris is at the moment [16:52:32] <delewis> edwardocallaghan, according to your definition of 'desktop' [16:52:41] <sickness> edwardocallaghan: only 2 things that solaris misses are vmware-server and cedega ;P [16:52:44] <iakovz> edwardocallaghan: just removed Fedora and installed solaris 10 yesterady ;) [16:52:46] <edwardocallaghan> *Stupid user [16:53:09] <sickness> edwardocallaghan: it does will ever be available, I don't really see the need for linux on the desktop :P [16:53:11] <jteo> we keep having these discussions don't we. [16:53:16] <edwardocallaghan> I am not removing Fedora as I got a Sun Blade [16:53:19] <delewis> jteo, unfortunately. [16:53:39] <sickness> if [16:53:55] <edwardocallaghan> Yes because too many people are stuck in there ways [16:54:00] <iakovz> what's wrong with my Xsun?! i do not want to use buggy Xorg i want make Xsun work ;) [16:54:09] <delewis> iakovz, "buggy Xorg"? [16:54:10] *** stelt has joined #opensolaris [16:54:11] <delewis> Xorg > Xsun [16:54:25] <iakovz> kiddin' [16:54:30] <edwardocallaghan> Open up, If it was not for Linux, Unix like OS's would be almost dead [16:54:35] *** deedaw has joined #opensolaris [16:54:41] <delewis> edwardocallaghan, absolutely. [16:54:48] *** mega_ has quit IRC [16:54:50] <delewis> and that would only leave real Unixes. [16:55:07] <sickness> edwardocallaghan: I'm ok with that [16:55:22] *** LordKing has quit IRC [16:55:30] <sickness> edwardocallaghan: I just say that it's a pity that the linux kernel became the mess that is in this late times... :/ [16:55:35] <iakovz> delewis: Xsun worked first time i booted but it fails at the momemt. [16:55:36] *** mega_ has joined #opensolaris [16:55:39] <edwardocallaghan> Your just being stupid then, you should take whats around you and work with it [16:56:23] <delewis> edwardocallaghan, that's kind of hypocritical. [16:56:30] <edwardocallaghan> If you pull everyone togther you get a better end result [16:56:33] <delewis> given Linux didn't do that. [16:56:39] <delewis> Minix was around, and far more mature. [16:56:48] <sickness> yeah, for games, it's just plain easier to install windows :/ [16:57:07] <edwardocallaghan> How many users are using Linux on there Desktop/small server [16:58:08] <iakovz> have you heard about that ext3 fs bug? [16:58:15] <edwardocallaghan> No one on the Desktop side of things is trying to move over from windows to Solaris (Whats Solaris) but they are looking at Linux(Oh I heared of that Linux) [16:58:24] <timeless> i didn't know ext3 only had 1 bugs [16:58:31] <timeless> most software i've seen comes with lots of bugs [16:58:36] <edwardocallaghan> ext3 is shit [16:58:39] <delewis> edwardocallaghan, if you haven't heard, "desktop" users aren't the only users around. [16:58:40] <iakovz> yeah [16:58:57] <edwardocallaghan> Ture but they make up numbers [16:59:03] <delewis> I don't give two fucks what the latest peecee users are using. [16:59:04] <edwardocallaghan> And numbers move things [16:59:08] <delewis> and I doubt anyone else does in here. [16:59:15] <delewis> take your flamebait elsewhere. [16:59:32] <edwardocallaghan> I am not flaming this is the thing [16:59:50] <edwardocallaghan> This is what I am trying to get across [16:59:53] <iakovz> omfg, google found only one pageg on my issue in chinees :( [16:59:54] <iakovz> shit [17:00:01] *** adam_bin has joined #opensolaris [17:00:08] <edwardocallaghan> Solaris is clearly better [17:00:53] <edwardocallaghan> But if it wants to get the attention of Linux then it has to act nicer [17:01:05] <edwardocallaghan> And work with others, thats all [17:01:14] <sickness> yeah, I'm looking forward to the new installer [17:01:15] <edwardocallaghan> I am not saying one it better then the other [17:01:18] <quasi> edwardocallaghan: obviously - I bet solaris has much fewer ext3 bugs than linux ;) [17:01:21] <sickness> and I hope vmware-server and cedega will be ported over :') [17:01:31] <delewis> edwardocallaghan, I don't think anyone is interested in pushing Solaris onto the desktop of average users, edwardocallaghan. [17:01:43] <sickness> being able to have the solaris kernel, vmware, and couter strike source without dual booting would be priceless =) [17:01:47] <delewis> most of us aren't concerned about Windows and don't see it as a threat like the Lusers do. [17:01:48] <sickness> counter strike [17:02:06] <cmihai> burp [17:02:10] <edwardocallaghan> Then whats with the Ultra easy new installer [17:02:21] <cmihai> What the hell are you on about edwardocallaghan [17:02:52] <iakovz> sickness: i think all of it is possible with ton of RAM and bunch of CPU with QEMU [17:02:55] <iakovz> or Xen [17:03:02] <edwardocallaghan> More people use Solaris/ more software will become avible for it [17:03:17] <cmihai> iakovz: possible via VNC if you ain't got anything better to do. [17:03:23] <cmihai> Or BrandZ Zones + loonix [17:03:30] <sickness> iakovz: yeah, but neither of them are still mature enough for win32 emulation :/ [17:03:32] *** logic has joined #opensolaris [17:03:35] <cmihai> qemu is just slooow [17:03:36] <sickness> iakovz: vmware is simply better at that :/ [17:03:46] <darkcmd> sickness: cedega :/ [17:03:47] <iakovz> ofcourse i know that :)) [17:03:52] <delewis> edwardocallaghan, I understand my needs are different than other users. I don't expect everyone else to use the operating system I use to meet my needs, and you shouldn't, either. [17:03:57] <delewis> this is a common flaw in Luser logic. [17:04:04] <sickness> edwardocallaghan: well, dependencies would be a hell of an improvement :') [17:04:07] <delewis> they want to push Linux into every area, so that it does absolutely nothing well. [17:04:16] <edwardocallaghan> Ture thats not what I am saying though [17:04:27] <timeless> sickness: i've never seen dependencies work right [17:04:31] <sickness> edwardocallaghan: linux has dependencies since years, in solaris you can't strip that damn gnome2 off, so yeah, that's one place that has lots of room for improvement :') [17:04:34] <sickness> IMHO [17:04:50] <stelt> Feel like spreading open and free computing? Maybe you like the ideas on http://freedomdrive.org [17:04:54] <iakovz> if linux will be everywhere we dedfinitely will always have work 'cause it full of crappy bugs [17:05:09] <sickness> timeless: ok you have a point, but in solaris they are plain screwed :( [17:05:28] <iakovz> and we can grab some modern hardware/solaris etc for the money we'll earn [17:05:29] <iakovz> ;) [17:05:32] <timeless> sickness: at least sun only has one useless impl of dependencies [17:05:43] <timeless> instead of a dozen different broken impls that it has to support [17:06:00] <sickness> timeless: yeah, but _pratically_ speaking, if you want a decent/working system, you have to do a full+oem install, no way :/ [17:06:01] <timeless> but yeah, being able to deal w/ dependencies is a nice pie in the sky thought [17:06:22] <edwardocallaghan> If you have a big install user base then you have market power to get more apps on your platform like for example VMware [17:06:25] <sickness> timeless: with nexenta you have the same kernel and can easily get a base install + compiler + fluxbox, for example, that's all I need honestly... [17:06:34] <sickness> like 700mb [17:06:37] <cmihai> So use that. Honestly. [17:06:41] <timeless> sickness: i have nexenta in a zone [17:06:42] <iakovz> btw VMware is SHIT [17:06:46] <timeless> i'm very happy to have it [17:06:52] <sickness> with standard solaris or sxcr even "ls" seem to have a dependency over java and then gnome2 (!!!) :/ [17:07:03] <iakovz> :))) [17:07:04] <philuk86> do developers prefer bug reports or patches? [17:07:05] <edwardocallaghan> I sayed example [17:07:06] <timeless> but i only really use it to drive an evil apt-get process [17:07:09] <jamesd_> vmware rocks if you have a system powerful enough to run it [17:07:14] <iakovz> it sucks [17:07:23] <timeless> philuk86: file a bug, [x] want to work on it [17:07:26] <timeless> and provide the patch [17:07:33] <iakovz> it even can't handle modern features lik hardware virtualization on intel [17:07:34] <sickness> cmihai: I'm not criticizing, I'm trying to see room for improvement, I really like solaris but I'd like to see the new installer anyway =) [17:07:36] <iakovz> & amd.. [17:07:39] <edwardocallaghan> You guys allways want to say some thing sucks/good [17:07:44] <jamesd_> iakovz, run solaris 10, nexenta, debian, windows xp, and 2k3 fine for me. [17:07:45] <sickness> cmihai: I know that I'm free to use whatever I want... [17:07:47] <edwardocallaghan> Your get nothing done [17:07:58] <timeless> that said... [17:08:03] <cmihai> sickness: think. Any new installer is bound to be even more resource hungry and use more evil Jabaware [17:08:06] <cmihai> :) [17:08:06] <timeless> sickness: have you looked at bug trackers? [17:08:15] <jamesd_> iakovz, thats nice... those features haven't even been out for a year yet. [17:08:18] * timeless might as well try to improve one for an hour [17:08:45] <iakovz> i dont get it. - i'v rebooted and just tested with kdmconfig and everything works.. [17:08:47] <iakovz> strange .. [17:08:52] <sickness> cmihai: well, I can't really think of anything worst that what's the current graphical installer, the 4. text console is the only one really usable :') [17:09:31] <delewis> obviously, none of have ever installed BSD from tapes. [17:09:34] <delewis> you* [17:09:34] <sickness> timeless: bug trackers? I'm not a programmer I'm a clueless luser :') [17:09:34] <delewis> :-) [17:10:06] <Kmays> IBM CATIA V5.17 or UGS NX CAM [17:10:13] *** mega_ is now known as mega [17:10:14] <timeless> sickness: hrm... [17:10:15] <cmihai> delewis: installed VMS on VAX from tapes. Does that count? :) [17:10:28] <edwardocallaghan> Right so I still have not got flash installed on sol10 [17:10:31] <timeless> well, i'm looking for feedback on bugzilla.mozilla.org so that i can improve the UE [17:10:49] <timeless> if you want to wear a clueless user hat and tell me what frightens/confuses you, i'm all ears for the next hour [17:10:52] <edwardocallaghan> And I still need to know where the plug-in lives [17:10:57] <delewis> cmihai, close, but no cigar. With BSD you had to copy off an initial filesystem, know precisely which blocks on the tape were what, etc. [17:11:06] <darkcmd> What is the last version of Solaris to run on a SS20? [17:11:11] <delewis> darkcmd, Solaris 9. [17:11:11] <Auralis> 9 [17:11:23] <darkcmd> delewis: thank you [17:11:34] <cmihai> delewis: unless it asked you for tape density, length and devices.. it's still not fun :) [17:11:57] <timeless> delewis: yeah, some of us grew up w/ kaypros running cpm and nice pretty atari 400s [17:11:58] *** Auralis has quit IRC [17:12:10] <delewis> I just find the installer griping to be mildly entertaining :-) [17:12:11] *** Auralis has joined #opensolaris [17:12:16] <edwardocallaghan> Right bye [17:12:23] *** edwardocallaghan has left #opensolaris [17:12:32] <delewis> thought he would never leave. [17:12:37] <cmihai> Heh [17:12:38] <darkcmd> he's IRCing as root [17:12:41] <darkcmd> hahahah [17:12:43] <cmihai> Yeah ;] [17:12:56] <sickness> lol [17:12:58] <timeless> hrm, you guys don't ban for that? [17:13:09] <cmihai> It's even more fun with OpenBSD as sometimes people get stuck in an infinite loop in the installer :) [17:13:16] <timeless> heh [17:13:23] <cmihai> (an infinite loop asking them to type "done") [17:13:28] <delewis> SunOS installs were fun :-) [17:13:31] <timeless> spiffy [17:13:47] <timeless> anyway, if you guys really have time on your hands [17:13:53] <Kmays> Xsun 6.6.2 [17:14:12] <timeless> and are in the mood to criticise/critique things, i'm interested in your comments about bugzilla.mozilla.org [17:14:27] <darkcmd> delewis: sunos as in the bsd based sunos * < 4.1 ? [17:14:36] <timeless> and we won't talk about the install process for bugzilla, i promise :) [17:14:52] <delewis> darkcmd, 4.x you mean, but yes. [17:15:07] <richlowe> < 4 were BSD based too... [17:15:18] <timeless> hi richlowe [17:15:23] <richlowe> (and quite possibly less fun to install) [17:15:29] <cmihai> Heh, had the pleasure of finding a BSD 4.3-Tahoe still in production here [17:15:36] <_syphilis_> except 4.1 for the 386i which was Interactive based :) [17:15:36] * delewis shudders [17:15:41] <cmihai> Took a while to get r00t lol ;] [17:15:56] <delewis> _syphilis_, it was? I thought it was a complete port. [17:16:01] <richlowe> timeless: I think most of the initial shock is the advanced search screen. :) [17:16:05] <_syphilis_> delewis: so did i, but jmcp says otherwise [17:16:10] <delewis> interesting [17:16:12] <_syphilis_> delewis: apparently interactive + sunos bits [17:16:15] <jteo> hi richlowe [17:16:16] <timeless> richlowe: there are actually 3 search uis [17:16:18] <delewis> wow, weird. [17:16:19] <richlowe> timeless: (and making people comment when accepting a bug gets old, but I suspects there's reasons for that) [17:16:22] <richlowe> timeless: Yeah, I just saw. [17:16:31] <richlowe> "Very simple", "simple", and "Oh my!" [17:16:33] <timeless> hrm, do we show all 3? [17:16:46] <richlowe> I assumed you meant front page search v. search v. advanced search. [17:17:04] <timeless> the front page search is actually very intelligent [17:17:14] <timeless> it just doesn't really indicate that [17:17:28] <timeless> it understands dozens or hundreds of magic words [17:17:39] <jteo> like google? [17:17:49] <timeless> hrm, not exactly, but kinda [17:17:50] <cmihai> Google is too smart for it's own good. [17:17:58] <cmihai> Specially with the calculator thing, heh [17:18:17] * timeless loves doing things like: 1 usd + 1 cad in yen [17:18:18] <cmihai> Typing sqrt(2^14-6*34)+pi^2 is too much for me :) [17:18:37] <timeless> 1 U.S. dollar 1 Canadian dollar = 221.414569 Japanese yen [17:18:41] <cmihai> heh [17:18:53] <timeless> (1 U.S. dollar) + (1 Canadian dollar) = 221.414569 Japanese yen [17:19:08] <timeless> i actually really did use that feature once [17:19:20] <delewis> oh, scary. [17:19:25] <delewis> it even does complex numbers. [17:19:28] <cmihai> Yeah [17:19:29] <timeless> we had some very complicated math involving USD, EUR, and Hungarian currency [17:19:51] <delewis> log(-5) = 0.698970004 + 1.36437635 i [17:20:04] <richlowe> delewis: sadly, it'll only give you pi to a handful of places. [17:20:16] <delewis> richlowe, ugh, yes. [17:20:22] <delewis> I know more pi digits than that off the top of my head. [17:20:33] <cmihai> There is a site [17:20:38] <cmihai> 3.1415blabla [17:20:44] <timeless> well, it gives you a link for [17:20:45] <timeless> Pi to 1000000 places [17:20:45] <cmihai> To 1 million decimals [17:20:50] <timeless> 3.141592653589793238462643383279502884197169399375105820974944592.com/ - 2k - [17:20:55] <cmihai> Yeah, that' [17:20:56] <cmihai> s the one :) [17:20:58] <delewis> I used to know 64 digits, but I can only do 20 now :-( [17:21:10] <timeless> and precisely how did you benefit from this? [17:21:29] <jamesd_> timeless, it makes him a chick magnet [17:21:38] <timeless> is he married? [17:21:43] * timeless assumes so [17:21:44] <delewis> timeless, not very much. :-) [17:21:45] <Kmays> :D [17:21:48] <delewis> timeless, no. [17:21:57] <timeless> jamesd: rule out that answer :) [17:22:42] <timeless> brb [17:23:47] <FireflyST> well, looks like my OpenGL throughput isn't very good on this U10/440/Creator3D [17:23:58] <hile_> no shit? [17:23:59] <delewis> FireflyST, what resolution? [17:24:02] <Auralis> no wonder that card is 10 years old [17:24:18] <hile_> it's only a creater [17:24:24] <delewis> (3D acceleration is completely disabled at 1600x1200) [17:24:33] <cmihai> heh [17:24:44] <FireflyST> heh, 1280x1024 :) [17:24:47] <delewis> kind of like old SGI framebuffers, like SI [17:24:49] <cmihai> It's a wonder it even does 1600x1200 [17:25:08] <Auralis> it actually does 1920x1200 as series 2 and 3 [17:25:08] <delewis> cmihai, it doesn't take that much memory to do 1600x1200 at truecolor [17:25:41] <Kmays> SXCR b54 comes withthe Nvidia 1.0-9629 driver (OpenGL 2.1)... the latest Nvidia driver for Solaris is currently v1.0-9746. [17:25:46] <timeless> richlowe: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/page.cgi?id=quicksearch.html [17:26:28] <iakovz> anyone here uses DjVu ? [17:27:00] *** uebayasi has quit IRC [17:27:05] <Kmays> Fixed an OpenGL crash on some GeForce 3 and GeForce 4 GPUs. [17:27:06] <Kmays> Fixed an X server crash starting some fullscreen OpenGL games. [17:27:24] <delewis> you can do 1280x1024@16-bit requires only 4MB of memory. [17:27:37] <timeless> richlowe: anyway, i'm not really sure what we could do to change advanced search [17:27:50] <Kmays> Added support for GeForce 8800 GTS and GeForce 8800 GTX boards [17:27:50] <timeless> each individual field of advanced is optional [17:28:00] *** Fish has quit IRC [17:28:23] <timeless> most users are fine w/ the other two searches, and in fact, most advanced users could use quicksearch if they retrained themselves [17:28:40] <timeless> i'm certainly willing to listen in case you have suggestions [17:28:55] <timeless> personally i just use gmail search when i want to find a bug :) [17:29:04] <timeless> You are currently using 2594 MB (93%) of your 2799 MB. [17:29:28] <timeless> but, i have an advantage over everyone else. i have a couple of years worth of most bugmail from the system that gmail can search :) [17:29:39] <richlowe> timeless: you asked what confused users, not if there were ways to make it not do so :) [17:30:12] * timeless grumbles [17:30:37] <timeless> is "advanced search" mislabeled? [17:30:50] <timeless> should it say "super complicated search" ? [17:31:15] <timeless> richlowe: but slightly more seriously, i presume you have javascript enabled [17:31:22] <richlowe> Yeah. [17:31:33] <timeless> on the advanced search page, click "give me some help" [17:32:15] * timeless wonders where that link is [17:32:29] * timeless decides to enable javascript [17:33:12] <richlowe> top left, and that's kinda nifty. [17:33:32] <timeless> the reason i wondered where the link was is because it isn't present if js is enabled [17:33:45] <timeless> i'm going to assume that you didn't discover the link on your own [17:33:53] <timeless> what should we do to enable you to discover it? [17:33:58] * timeless goes off to file bugs [17:34:07] <timeless> they misspelled "classifications is" [17:35:31] <darkcmd> I hate reading slashdot, it spreads so much FUD [17:35:54] <timeless> you mean that you hate that other people read it [17:36:14] <darkcmd> yeah :D [17:36:15] <timeless> richlowe: i'm quite serious, what would it take to have made you actually click that link? :( [17:36:36] <darkcmd> since when did solaris get nvidia drivers? [17:37:05] <quasi> darkcmd: there has been nvidia drivers all the way through sol10 [17:37:09] <jteo> since a year ago. [17:37:10] <Auralis> sins sun sells amd boxes with nvidea cards [17:37:17] <timeless> you mean as part of the system, or when did nvidia ship them? [17:38:16] <FireflyST> OK, I am not paying $400 for an XVR-1000 [17:38:36] <timeless> you could buy one for me ;-) [17:38:38] <FireflyST> fsck that. [17:38:53] <Auralis> nvidia cards don't work on sparc [17:39:46] <darkcmd> so around the time sol10 came out nvidia drivers for solaris came out? [17:39:49] *** hile_ has quit IRC [17:40:48] <richlowe> timeless: you said "users" not "me", too. [17:40:51] *** nbkk6fo__ has quit IRC [17:41:06] *** nbkk6fo__ has joined #opensolaris [17:41:16] * timeless scrolls back in search of context [17:41:17] <richlowe> timeless: it'd have taken me not understanding any of the fields I would care about to cause me to click it :) [17:41:39] <richlowe> [1110] <timeless> if you want to wear a clueless user hat and tell me what frightens/confuses you, i'm all ears for the next hour [17:42:48] <timeless> technically that part of the statement was to sickness ;-) [17:42:49] <timeless> but sure [17:43:40] <timeless> richlowe: would having individual [?] links by individual widgets have made you more or less likely to investigate? [17:44:20] * timeless tries to figure out if "classifications is" could possibly be right [17:44:30] <darkcmd> What are these Zones? [17:44:31] <Kmays> No..SPARC mostly had the 3Dlabs GPUs...XVR2500 is the remaining card for current SPARC workstations with OpenGL 1.5 support. [17:44:55] *** ethospi_ has quit IRC [17:45:11] <timeless> darkcmd: best to read about them, kinda a chroot on steroids [17:45:14] <darkcmd> I have an SBus based Creator 3D :/ [17:45:27] <timeless> it has its own resource limitations, its own file system, networking [17:45:44] <timeless> it can have its own syscall interface in casae you want to say run linux apps [17:45:45] <Kmays> A few ATI cards sprinkled throughout, but mainly for 2D only (market-wise). [17:46:37] *** iakovz has quit IRC [17:46:58] *** axxl has quit IRC [17:47:00] <timeless> oh, of course its own process list [17:47:39] <timeless> generally speaking its own users/groups too [17:49:34] <darkcmd> so basically it's kinda like virtualization, but not [17:50:07] <richlowe> timeless: if I actually needed help with any of those fields, I'd have noticed and clicked it before, probably. [17:50:16] <richlowe> timeless: putting little ? links all over the place may work though, I guess. [17:50:27] <richlowe> but now I have to vanish and get lunch. [17:50:28] <richlowe> bbiab. [17:50:39] <jteo> "?" links good. [17:52:46] <FireflyST> ? [17:53:26] *** whaq has quit IRC [17:55:26] *** Gman has quit IRC [17:56:30] *** whaq has joined #opensolaris [17:58:41] *** cyraq has joined #opensolaris [17:59:00] <cyraq> would you recommend opensolaris as a desktop? [17:59:39] *** mega has quit IRC [18:00:05] <cmihai> No [18:00:12] <cmihai> Not if you have to ask :P [18:00:42] <cmihai> God, I just hate this whole "as a desktop" thing. [18:01:39] <darkcmd> cmihai: me too [18:02:02] <cyraq> well, to browse the internet, listen to music, and be a unix geek :> [18:02:16] <darkcmd> cyraq: an operating system will do what you want it to [18:02:18] <cmihai> Christ, you can do that on anything from VMS 6 to DOS [18:03:01] <cmihai> The applications are pretty much the same everywhere.. Firefox, gnome, rhythmbox.. same everywhere [18:03:22] <cyraq> then what sets it apart from linux/bsd? [18:03:58] <cmihai> Sigh. [18:04:36] <darkcmd> use it and find out [18:04:41] <cyraq> cmihai: if you dont want to bear with the newbies, at least don't act like a pompous, know-it-all shit.. [18:04:55] <cmihai> Whoh [18:05:07] <cmihai> Aren't you jolly [18:05:15] <Kmays> Nvidia/ATI are spinoffs (ex-SGI employees actually, same as 3dfx was back in the day). [18:05:51] <FireflyST> cyraq: OpenSolaris blocks all porn. [18:06:20] <darkcmd> I'm reading slashdot right, that one article about OpenSolaris, all these Linux fiends believe that Solaris is a relatively new system. [18:06:25] <darkcmd> I can't believe it. [18:06:38] <cmihai> I can't belive anything that comes from slashdot [18:06:52] *** cneira has joined #opensolaris [18:07:54] <darkcmd> yeah, it's FUD zone [18:08:05] <cyraq> what's so different about solaris??? [18:08:08] <Auralis> yeah, relativ new, as in dating bacl to 1984 [18:08:13] *** philuk86 has quit IRC [18:08:51] <Kmays> Need to get WMA 11 codecs on Solaris. [18:09:01] <darkcmd> Auralis: they are saying new compared to Linux [18:09:23] <delewis> newsflash: the world is full of idiots. [18:09:32] <delewis> don't let me constantly surprise you. [18:09:47] <FireflyST> Kmays: If they did that I'd abandon Windows completely [18:10:00] <Kmays> ;D [18:10:25] <FireflyST> Kmays: needs to have decoding for the DRM shit though [18:10:38] <delewis> MPlayer can play WMV9 and 10, nowadays. [18:10:54] <FireflyST> delewis: no DRM though [18:10:55] <delewis> no DRM and that will never be implemented. [18:11:00] <cneira> im using adobe acrobat4 when adobe is gonna release a new version for x86 ? [18:11:12] <FireflyST> delewis: Oh, I know. Once can dream though :) [18:11:13] <cmihai> Use xpdf/gpdf/evince [18:11:14] <PerterB> To be fair, Linux was useful before Solaris 2.x - most people avoided running 2.x in production right up until 2.5.1 [18:11:20] <PerterB> 1.x is another story of course [18:11:23] <Auralis> when they get their head out of thier ass [18:11:49] <delewis> PerterB, useful on a very limited scope of hardware. [18:11:59] <darkcmd> Implimenting DRM on a UNIX based operating system seems to defeat the purpose in my opinion. [18:12:08] <cmihai> Odd that they have acroread for 7 for UNIX (Solaris on SPARC, HP-UX PARISC) but not bloody x86 [18:12:25] <delewis> cmihai, most vendors got bitten when Sun dropped Solaris/x86. [18:12:30] <delewis> it's taken awhile for them to recover. [18:12:35] <delewis> IBM has come around, but that took a long time. [18:12:53] <cmihai> Guess so [18:12:56] <PerterB> delewis: agreed... but I remember throwing away a very expensive Interactive SysV/386 set (with all the unbundled extras like NFS and compilers) because Linux did a better job on the same (limited) hardware [18:13:15] <cyraq> CAN SOMEONE PLEASE TELL ME THE MAJOR DIFFERENCES BETWEEN SOLARIS AND LINUX AND STOP BEING INSECURE ABOUT THE SIZE OF SOLARIS'S PENIX IN THE UNIX WORLD? [18:13:28] <cneira> cyraq ahah [18:13:39] <darkcmd> cyraq: please don't speak in all caps [18:13:50] <cneira> differences in what aspect ? kernel ,userland [18:13:55] <delewis> cyraq, observability tools, ZFS, MPSS, MPO, scalability.. the list goes on. [18:14:08] <FireflyST> cyraq: that's too broad of a question. be3 more specific. [18:14:22] <cmihai> Solaris is UNIX. Linux is not. End of story. [18:14:37] <cneira> cmihai you used to have linux ? [18:14:52] <Kmays> If you are into video game development/content creation or want to move project likes CAD/CAM to Solaris..then you tend to look at hardware a bit more seriously. [18:14:53] <cyraq> well, let's say i'm a 'normal' user who wants to use solaris for music, email, internet, chatting, work, storage, camera, etc. [18:14:58] <cyraq> what difference would i see [18:14:58] <darkcmd> When did sun start shipping Solaris for x86? [18:15:21] <quasi> darkcmd: 10 years ago [18:15:31] <quasi> or thereabouts [18:15:36] <FireflyST> 2.5.1 I believe was the first release [18:15:36] <delewis> cyraq, none. [18:15:37] <delewis> go away, [18:15:50] <darkcmd> 2.5.1 being Solaris 5? [18:15:59] <delewis> why does everyone want to use Unix on their desktop. [18:16:00] <Auralis> 2.5.1 is 2.5.1 [18:16:01] <delewis> this is troubling. [18:16:15] <Auralis> delewis: no its is good, windows must die [18:16:20] <darkcmd> delewis: I run Solaris on my workstation [18:16:25] <delewis> darkcmd, I said *desktop* [18:16:32] <delewis> not a workstation. [18:16:39] <darkcmd> anything can be a desktop [18:16:40] <Kmays> Or just want to use Pro Tools (music studio app) on Solaris (snicker) [18:16:43] <delewis> a desktop does exactly what cyraq described. [18:16:48] <cneira> windows is for kids that like to play a lot [18:16:51] <delewis> Unix was designed for programmers and technical users. [18:16:54] <delewis> not silly dolts with no clue. [18:17:01] <FireflyST> delewis: Because this U10 cost me $15 and my $1500 PC that's 6 years old is flaky as all hell [18:17:14] <darkcmd> delewis: that's what saddens me about Linux, people tend to think of it as UNIX [18:17:32] <cyraq> you guys sure are uptight, arent you [18:17:36] <darkcmd> I've run AIX, HP-UX, Solaris, Digital UNIX, Tru64, and others, there's a big difference [18:17:39] <cneira> linux is the windows of the unixes [18:17:42] <hali> solaris 2.1 was the first x86 according to wikipedia... [18:17:42] <delewis> well, with so much emphasis being placed on Windows-like functionality in Linux, that's certainly true. [18:17:59] <sickness> hali: maybe that was for the infamous roadrunner? :P [18:18:00] <Kmays> darkcmd <- Preach! [18:18:02] *** cyraq has left #opensolaris [18:18:03] <darkcmd> though I do find JDS heavily Windows like [18:18:26] <FireflyST> hali: Isn't Wilipedia notorious for bizarre chronological errors though? [18:18:39] <delewis> Solaris 2.1 was *not* the first x86 Unix, if that's what you mean. [18:18:41] <FireflyST> darkcmd: JDS is SUPPOSEd to be windows-like [18:18:45] <delewis> that would be Xenix. [18:18:54] *** Gman has joined #opensolaris [18:19:00] <delewis> which was *way* before Solaris 2.1 [18:19:09] <Kmays> Amiga UNIX ... 1991 timeframe... SysVR4... [18:19:15] <FireflyST> I believe that 2.1 was whatever shipped with the 386i [18:19:18] <hali> i was refering to the first solaris release for x86 hw [18:19:25] <delewis> hali, ah. [18:19:31] <_syphilis_> FireflyST: the 386i ran 4.x [18:19:38] <FireflyST> first release in the current line was 2.5.1 [18:19:43] <cneira> is cups working out of the box in build 54 ? [18:19:44] * delewis wonders when clueless users will stop flowing in [18:19:53] <cmihai> Never, it seems [18:19:53] <jteo> be nice delewis. :) [18:19:56] <FireflyST> syphilis: Oh, ok. That sounds right actually. [18:20:04] <delewis> maybe we should have, "Solaris is *not* a Windows-desktop replacement" [18:20:11] <delewis> "not for you, anyway" [18:20:13] <Kmays> :D [18:20:26] <darkcmd> delewis: probably because solaris is starting to run quite nicely on x86 nowadays [18:20:35] <darkcmd> and it's more convienient to try it [18:20:39] <sickness> http://sites.inka.de/pcde/collection/sun386i_250.html [18:20:40] <sickness> :P [18:21:03] <Kmays> b54 is the most impressive. [18:21:12] <Kmays> withthe updated JDS. [18:21:13] <FireflyST> I prefer Solaris+JDS to Windows' quirky and unpredictable, and sometimes unresolvable behavior [18:21:23] <delewis> darkcmd, like I said, I don't expect non-technical users to run an operating system that meets my technical-computing needs, nor would I want them to do. [18:21:24] <quasi> sickness: nice box [18:21:37] <cneira> sickness: nice [18:21:56] <delewis> there was also DOS application compatibility on the 386i. [18:22:33] <darkcmd> delewis: my first UNIX experience was BSD on a VAX [18:22:48] <Kmays> sickness <- great article. [18:23:11] <FireflyST> My first UNIX experience was HP-UX 9.03 [18:23:43] <FireflyST> you think XSun is bad, try using that and HP's bizarre window manager [18:23:52] <sickness> I found that googling, but yeah, it's pretty interesting =) [18:23:57] <delewis> FireflyST, VuE, which later evolved into CDE? [18:24:02] <cmihai> FireflyST: you mean VUE? [18:24:04] <delewis> and that does a window manager have to do with an X11 server? [18:24:07] <cmihai> Man, that is plain odd [18:24:08] <FireflyST> yeah VUE [18:24:19] <cmihai> Still have it on an old production server [18:24:24] <cmihai> Used to be a CAD something [18:24:41] <cmihai> New one came with a VUE to CDE migration guide :)) [18:24:45] <FireflyST> iirc a lot of things were in strange directories [18:24:57] <FireflyST> haha I think I still have that book [18:25:10] <Kmays> Luckily, you have CDE/GNOME/Xfce/KDE/Enlightenment to chose from. [18:25:18] <delewis> cmihai, the XVR-1000 architectural whitebooks mentions "extensive CDE acceleration capabilities".. [18:25:23] <FireflyST> yeah nowadays it's not a big deal [18:25:24] <cmihai> Heh [18:25:39] <FireflyST> I still hate CDE [18:25:49] <delewis> I use whatever the vendor provides. [18:26:05] <cmihai> DECWindows :)) [18:26:08] <delewis> if the vendor provides CDE, that's great. likewise, if JDS is provided, that's great, as well. [18:26:17] <FireflyST> JDS <3 [18:26:20] <sickness> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ru/thumb/2/2f/HP_VUE.png/800px-HP_VUE.png [18:26:21] <delewis> I don't place a lot of emphasis on my desktop environment, provided it has basic windowing functionality. [18:26:50] <delewis> users often spend more time customizing their desktop than they spend doing actual work. [18:27:19] <FireflyST> haha, VUE, I almost miss it. [18:27:49] <FireflyST> only because I learned so much on that box [18:27:51] <delewis> 4DWM :-) [18:28:08] <sickness> I think it's still in hp-ux 11 [18:28:12] <sickness> as an option... [18:28:17] <delewis> now, that was an environment that didn't need customization. [18:28:34] <FireflyST> I had one of those S-series boxes hooked to this cabinet sized framebuffers [18:28:47] <delewis> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:4Dwm.png [18:29:08] <FireflyST> It was a discard when my uncle worked at HP [18:29:11] <delewis> I miss those widgets :-( [18:29:29] <FireflyST> I had a full set of docs for the thing too [18:29:32] <sickness> delewis: irix :P [18:29:49] <FireflyST> I remember I ported rocks'n'diamonds to it :) [18:30:09] * darkcmd is using CDE [18:30:29] <FireflyST> I use that on my U5, JDS is too slow [18:30:43] <cmihai> sickness: it [18:30:46] <cmihai> sickness: it's not. [18:30:53] <sickness> oh, so 4dwm is not irix? [18:30:55] <cmihai> Not in 11.11i anyway. [18:31:02] <delewis> sickness, yes, it is. [18:31:11] <sickness> cmihai: ah, well, a friend of mine told that so I'm not sure [18:31:26] <cmihai> sickness: well, I have 11.11v1 and v2 here, and I can't find it. [18:31:55] <sickness> cmihai: but he told me that it should be in 10.20 for sure... whatever... [18:32:02] <FireflyST> I have an HP media kit here but no box to run it on, I got that free copy from HP [18:32:18] <cmihai> Free? That's not how HP works [18:32:25] <cmihai> 10$ says cd 2-5 are encrypted [18:32:26] <cmihai> Mine are :) [18:32:47] <darkcmd> HP-UX is PARISC and Itanium right? [18:32:52] <delewis> darkcmd, yes. [18:32:55] <FireflyST> "Software on this disc is unsecured" they all say [18:32:55] <Kmays> Yes, the SPARCstation 5 runs GNOME 2.14.3 at the moment. [18:32:58] <nettie> hi guys, I would like to install nv54 but I dont really would like to waste a lot of space for the graphical environment. I remeber last time I installed solari10 specifing "minimum" in the installer I had a pretty unusable system. Anyone could suggest me something to read regardign installations options please? I'm pretty well used on linux, I can build system from scratch but here the game it totally new for me. Thanx in advance. [18:33:07] <Kmays> Have pieces on GNOME 2.16.2 inthere. [18:33:19] <darkcmd> GNOME runs on a SS5? [18:33:26] <delewis> nettie, do a full install if you're new to Solaris. [18:33:28] <quasi> darkcmd: but HP is trying very hard to kill the PARISC version [18:33:31] <delewis> do a new install in any case. [18:33:32] <Kmays> Yes [18:33:33] <jteo> slowly but surely [18:33:34] <delewis> s/new/full/ [18:33:41] <cmihai> quasi: tell me about it. [18:34:04] <cmihai> Already managed to kill Alpha and Tru64 [18:34:15] <nettie> delewis ok, then thanx. That's what's used on server too? [18:34:15] <sickness> I go out... happy new year! [18:34:16] <delewis> relatively quickly, too. [18:34:20] <delewis> nettie, yes. [18:34:27] <delewis> *always* do a full install. [18:34:38] <delewis> unless you have some reasonably jusitified reason. [18:34:39] <nettie> delewis ok it's like the *SUPPORTED* default install option then :) [18:34:44] <delewis> nettie, no [18:34:49] <delewis> choose custom, and choose full+oem. [18:34:54] <quasi> cmihai: $old job was recently looking for someone to help them downgrade their recently installed 100+ machine sap install from parisc to itanic [18:34:58] <cmihai> You need like 4GB for a full install... no big deal [18:35:11] <nettie> ok [18:35:17] <nettie> custom and then full+oem [18:35:18] <delewis> cmihai, you know storage solutions over 4GB nowadays are rare :-) [18:35:20] <nettie> great! [18:35:45] * delewis has yet to see an Itanium machine in production [18:36:06] <cmihai> They're an illusion... [18:36:11] <FireflyST> Itaniums are kick ass. For heating rooms. [18:36:12] <cmihai> HP wants you to belive they exist [18:36:23] <quasi> delewis: I'm working very hard on killing one (ajax.apache.org) [18:36:32] <darkcmd> I saw an Itanium running OpenVMS once [18:36:44] <delewis> quasi, what is it running? [18:36:51] <quasi> delewis: linux [18:37:05] <delewis> I just don't see a lot of operating system choices for them, other than Linux, OpenVMS, and the various free BSD variants, as well as Windows. [18:37:06] <Kmays> FireFly <- :D Cute [18:37:15] <delewis> (nothing that I'm interested in, except maybe OpenVMS) [18:37:16] <quasi> delewis: a big 7U piece of old iron [18:37:23] <delewis> quasi, what's performance like? [18:37:44] <cmihai> 7U? 0_o [18:37:49] <cmihai> Itanic? [18:38:03] *** stelt has quit IRC [18:38:08] <darkcmd> delewis: I bought a Sun Blade :D [18:38:13] <quasi> delewis: horrendous, but that's mostly because of old kernels and a crappy disk system [18:38:22] <delewis> quasi, fun. [18:38:28] <delewis> darkcmd, congratulations. [18:38:47] <quasi> delewis: it was about to fall over every time google hit us [18:38:52] <Kmays> Can't beleive they let sacrificed Integer performance over FPU on the I2... should have kept them near the same and focsed on 32/64 support back then. [18:39:05] <Kmays> Ugh [18:39:06] <delewis> Kmays, interesting. [18:39:19] <delewis> I figured FP performance would be decent, given SGI was pushing it for HPC. [18:39:31] <delewis> oh, nevermind. [18:39:32] <delewis> read that wrong. [18:39:39] * delewis is in need of coffee [18:41:27] <cmihai> I've seen that even HP offers Opteron servers now [18:41:28] <darkcmd> some java :D hehe [18:41:36] <cmihai> They've stopped pushing for Itanium [18:41:53] <darkcmd> Itanium was a flop [18:41:58] <delewis> cmihai, that's going to screw their OpenVMS customers [18:42:10] <delewis> given Itanium was the direction for that [18:42:15] <cmihai> I doubt there are many left [18:42:52] <cmihai> But yeah, HP-UX and OpenVMS are now Itanium only. [18:43:03] <cmihai> Since PA-RISC, Alpha and VAX are pretty much dead [18:43:20] <delewis> VAX and Alpha are definitely dead. [18:43:31] <cmihai> Since they don't plan on porting Tru64 to Itanium it's safe to say that's dead also. [18:43:31] <delewis> but PA-RISC is still pretty popular in certain sectors, namely healthcare. [18:44:02] <darkcmd> Well if they kill off Itanium do you see them porting HP-UX to x86_64? [18:44:11] <delewis> when I left my old job last year, they had just purchased a larged HP-UX system for an EMS CMS. [18:44:13] <cmihai> Not really. [18:44:25] <Kmays> HP-UX is phasing to Linux..last rumored. [18:44:38] <cmihai> I just can't see how HP plans on competing with Solaris on the x86 market [18:44:38] * delewis sigh [18:44:40] <delewis> great job. [18:44:54] <delewis> pushing a sub-standard operating system over one that actually works. [18:45:19] *** cneira_ has joined #opensolaris [18:45:24] <cmihai> Hm.. great. IBM, HP, they all seem to be pushing Linux for some reason [18:45:35] <delewis> cmihai, not really. [18:45:36] <Auralis> to cut down their own development costs [18:45:53] <delewis> cmihai, IBM will sell you AIX in a heartbeat. [18:45:54] <delewis> and rightly so. [18:46:09] <delewis> they still recognize it has a place for certain customers, and that Linux isn't an alternative. [18:46:26] <FireflyST> Don't forget AS/400 either [18:46:28] <cmihai> Auralis: I hear they sacked the Tru64 devels [18:46:41] <darkcmd> so all the real unices are basically being killed off for linux [18:46:59] <delewis> it's hard to sell a customer an operating system that doesn't have a decent volume manager over one that does. [18:47:21] <cmihai> Yeah [18:48:02] <FireflyST> my biggest problem with linux is that its docs are just utter shit [18:48:17] <delewis> FireflyST, it's a toy, and nothing more. [18:48:20] <Auralis> you have the code, thats the linux docs [18:48:23] <delewis> great for embedded evices, and peecees. [18:48:26] <delewis> nothing else. [18:48:36] <cmihai> Logical volume manager is still kickass [18:48:47] <delewis> cmihai, you mean the AIX one, right? (and not Linux?) [18:48:52] <cmihai> Duh [18:48:55] <delewis> just checking. :-) [18:48:56] <cmihai> AIX of course [18:49:05] <FireflyST> HP-UX had some really neat tricks iirc [18:49:06] <delewis> the Linux one is a joke. [18:49:12] <delewis> you can't even mirror with it. [18:49:21] <delewis> FireflyST, HP-UX shipped VxVM. [18:49:30] <delewis> I can't imagine them selling Linux to those customers [18:49:30] <cmihai> Like HP-UX online JFS? It's all Veritas [18:49:41] <delewis> "Oh, yeah, you've got Linux LVM for your volume management" [18:49:42] <nettie> delewis can you suggest me a good book on solaris please? if focused on 10+ would be great. thanx. [18:49:51] <FireflyST> I remember making autoboot restore tapes on that, it blew me away [18:49:51] <delewis> nettie, http://docs.sun.com [18:49:57] <nettie> everything there? [18:49:58] <delewis> FireflyST, yeah, AIX does that, too. [18:50:02] <delewis> nettie, yes. [18:50:09] <nettie> nice and cheap then :) [18:50:18] <quasi> nettie: http://docs.sun.com/app/docs/prod/solaris.10 in specific [18:50:20] <FireflyST> nettie, docs.sun.com is one reason why solaris is great [18:50:33] <cmihai> There's a McGraw Hill book that's resonable... but... you can order hardcopies of docs.sun.com too [18:50:41] <cmihai> If you're after dead trees [18:51:05] <delewis> I've never owned a Solaris system administration book. Only Solaris Internals and SSP. [18:51:09] <cmihai> FireflyST: you mean bootable tapes on AIX? [18:51:10] <FireflyST> I gave up wasting paper on docs.sun.com, it gets updated too frequently [18:51:11] <cmihai> Yeah, those are great [18:51:16] <delewis> mksysb :-) [18:51:16] <jteo> Most decision makers aren't..technically inclinded. (sweeping generalisation) [18:51:32] <cmihai> delewis: yep. And wam! you have root volume on a tape. That's just awesome [18:51:39] <FireflyST> cmihai: No, HP/UX is where I made the bootable restore tapes [18:51:51] <nettie> if I can get hardcopies that would be great [18:51:58] <quasi> jteo: and spot on in 99.999% of the cases ;) [18:52:01] <delewis> cmihai, yeah, and you throw mksysb images on a NIM server, too. [18:52:02] <cmihai> nettie: yeah, you can order them. [18:52:21] <FireflyST> nettie: or docs.sun.com + laser printer :) [18:52:36] <nettie> FireflyST eheh [18:52:42] <delewis> there's also a lot of good stuff that isn't on docs.sun.com [18:52:47] <delewis> http://www.sun.com/blueprints [18:52:58] <cmihai> FireflyST: never actually done that on HP-UX. Just plain regular fbackup... [18:52:59] <delewis> and the architectural whitepapers are good, too. [18:52:59] <FireflyST> delewis: that too [18:53:04] <nettie> delewis I did Custom, now it's asking me about some fancy extra value software :) eheh what's that? [18:53:07] <cmihai> FireflyST: what did you use for those? [18:53:17] <delewis> nettie, just SunVTS, probably. [18:53:18] <Auralis> nettie: ignore [18:53:24] <darkcmd> man I would love to be able to check out HP-UX some day [18:53:27] <delewis> which is just a system verification testing suite. [18:53:28] <FireflyST> cmihai: ouch, you're making me think :) [18:53:36] <nettie> thanx a lot guys [18:53:41] <darkcmd> last time I used it was a long time ago [18:53:55] <cmihai> delewis: it even has "containers" of sorts.. vPars [18:54:00] <cmihai> Erm, darkcmd. [18:54:05] <FireflyST> it had a name like Jumpstart [18:54:12] <cmihai> IgniteUX [18:54:13] <cmihai> Oh, that. [18:54:16] <cmihai> That's different. [18:54:33] <FireflyST> that's what it was [18:54:42] <darkcmd> is it possible to boot from tape on x86? [18:55:16] <cmihai> Yeah, but that's a different thing that mksysb on AIX for example. But yeah, it's cool. [18:55:28] <FireflyST> darkcmd: probably not on random PCs, possibly on SCSI, probably yes on Sun x86 stuff [18:55:38] <darkcmd> nice [18:55:39] <nettie> ok .. now it asks for: Entire Group PLUS OEM Default or Custom package -- or just Entire Gorup .. the first one is the one you suggested delewis right? [18:55:54] <Auralis> everything, especialy as newcommer [18:56:06] <Auralis> later when you know what you want and do, you can strip shit out [18:56:07] <nettie> sizewise they look the same [18:56:41] <FireflyST> I just install Entire Group in custom mode [18:57:09] <FireflyST> if you have lots of disk, maybe put /var/log on its own partition [18:57:26] <cmihai> If you have lots of disks, use zfs :) [18:58:07] <nettie> does it uses zfs out of the box or I need to create zfs pools later? does it boots from zfs volumes? [18:58:09] <darkcmd> cmihai: I take it from the multitude of channels you are on, you're a fan of most things UNIX :D ? [18:58:19] <cmihai> darkcmd: pretty much [18:58:32] <cmihai> Might even generalize as "all things non-linux" :P [18:58:33] <darkcmd> same here, I try to learn as much about it as I can [18:58:38] <FireflyST> I need to sit down and learn how to use disk mirroring so I can set up the other disk on my Netra [18:58:42] <Auralis> nettie: create zfs later, does not boot from it yet without pain [18:58:46] <cmihai> It's a work requirement also [18:58:49] <nettie> I dont get the difference from Entire Group and Entire Group PLUS OEM [18:59:06] <cmihai> We pretty much have everything from BSD 4.3-Tahoe, to bleeding edge Solaris in production :) [18:59:07] <FireflyST> OEM has stuff like drivers for Fujitsu equipment [18:59:22] <darkcmd> cmihai: is there a high demand for UNIX sysadmins these days? [18:59:29] <Auralis> FireflyST: http://www.gods-inc.de/barbie/solaris/sds_mirroring_howto.txt [18:59:34] <cmihai> darkcmd: there is. [18:59:52] <cmihai> darkcmd: plenty of Linux gentoobies around, but not many to manage the UNIX machines [18:59:55] <darkcmd> Once I get out of university, I would really like to get a job as a UNIX sysadmin [18:59:57] *** cneira has quit IRC [19:00:14] <cmihai> So you're bound to see neglected UNIX machines wherever you go [19:00:41] <darkcmd> From what I've been hearing in here, most of the real UNIX operating systems are dying :( [19:01:08] <cmihai> Well.. sort of. All that's really left is Solaris, AIX and HP-UX. [19:01:25] <darkcmd> BSD 4.3 Tahoe, is that for VAX? [19:01:26] <cmihai> Tru64, IRIX, Digital UNIX are all gonners [19:01:29] <cmihai> darkcmd: yep :) [19:01:40] <darkcmd> can I still get that for my VAX? [19:01:45] <cmihai> Runs on a MicroVax III here. Well, I think it's a MicroVax III anyway [19:01:51] <cmihai> darkcmd: no idea. [19:01:54] <cmihai> It's not free [19:02:07] <darkcmd> it's mostly abandonware I assume [19:02:14] <darkcmd> wouldn't really hurt anyone [19:02:40] <cmihai> Well, you can get OpenBSD for your VAX [19:02:47] <FireflyST> Microvax III? As we say in #ClassicCmp, LOL QBUS. [19:02:56] <cmihai> :)) [19:03:13] <nettie> ehehe 1882 pages the user commands book :) [19:03:18] <cmihai> Even have some VMS 6.2 on teh VAX... running what I think is Oracle 6 [19:03:26] <FireflyST> nettie: PRINT IT [19:03:31] <cmihai> At least it's what the tapes say :) [19:03:32] <FireflyST> nettie: ON YOUR DESKJET [19:03:37] <nettie> administration book 2368 [19:03:38] <darkcmd> There's really only 1 Linux distribution that I can tollarate, and that's Slackware [19:03:39] <nettie> yeah sure [19:03:46] <nettie> then I could buy a thumper [19:03:55] <nettie> with the money spent :) [19:03:59] <Kmays> Sun OpenGL 2.1 would be nice. [19:04:06] <FireflyST> darkcmd: I used that for about a year in 1996 until I got my HP/UX box [19:04:18] <FireflyST> darkcmd: I ordered it from Walnut Creek :) [19:04:25] <darkcmd> Slackware isn't too bad at all [19:04:36] <cmihai> Hardly more that a toy [19:04:39] <FireflyST> Ran good on my 486 with 8MB ram [19:04:47] <nettie> darkcmd I like rpm based distro a lot .. I mostly use Centos now.. [19:04:56] <nettie> of course I used slackware before [19:04:58] <FireflyST> OOH. I *NEED* to get a copy of Abuse for Solaris [19:05:09] <cmihai> That should set off the "we hate rpm" triggers :) [19:05:37] <darkcmd> it almost set off mine [19:05:49] <darkcmd> what kind of package management uses cpio [19:05:53] <darkcmd> haha [19:06:06] <FireflyST> haha what? RPM does that? [19:06:19] <dvorak> solaris doesn't have the packaging issues that most rpm based distributions do because the sysv packaging tools suck so badly that no one is willing to withstand the pain required to do fine grained dependencies [19:06:54] <cmihai> hehe [19:07:05] <darkcmd> it does FireflyST [19:07:07] <dvorak> you'll note that most of the time when someone is trying to install some missing package off cd/dvd, everyone just tells them to give up and reinstall with a full installation [19:07:20] <dvorak> that's not exactly a glowing endorsement [19:07:34] <FireflyST> whoa [19:07:35] *** bougie has quit IRC [19:07:44] <dvorak> rpm is a decent enough tool, and like most tools you can do horrible things with it, and people frequently do [19:07:50] <FireflyST> Only RPM-based box I have is my Atari system running MiNT [19:07:51] <_syphilis_> dvorak: that's not just because of the packaging tools. installing base software after the initial install breaks patching too [19:08:20] <dvorak> yeah, again, that's not exactly a glowing endorsement [19:08:57] <cmihai> It's one of the ancient ugly things in UNIX nobody really wants to touch or talk about [19:09:26] <cmihai> And replaceing it would imply a LOT of work [19:09:32] <dvorak> yup, it would [19:09:39] <dvorak> but it does pretty much suck [19:09:44] <cmihai> Hell, even the LiveUpgrade system is pretty much stupid [19:10:02] <cmihai> Nexenta seems to have gotten it right [19:10:03] <dvorak> LU isn't bad to the complete lack of an alternative you get on most other OS's [19:10:04] <FireflyST> what is it we're talking about here? [19:10:07] <cmihai> With apt/dpkg [19:10:31] <_syphilis_> i prefer LU to apt-get upgrade. the latter doesn't offer much chance to downgrade [19:10:36] <_syphilis_> at least on production systems [19:10:38] <dvorak> they're not really the same thing [19:10:51] <cmihai> _syphilis_: restore backup [19:11:02] <dvorak> there is some overlap, but they're trying to do different things [19:11:04] <_syphilis_> then you're doing the same as LU, just different [19:11:20] <cmihai> Pretty much [19:11:23] <dvorak> well, and restore backup takes a lot longer than rebooting into the alternative boot environment [19:11:41] <darkcmd> how much of SVR4 is left in Solaris? [19:11:44] <cmihai> dump to another disk and setup as boot enviroment... bah, nevermind. [19:11:55] <cmihai> That would be too much like liveupgrade lol [19:12:14] <dvorak> well, LU has a nice framework about it [19:12:27] <dvorak> that said, solaris needs something like LU much more than debian/nexenta/ubuntu, etc [19:12:56] <FireflyST> Oh, are you guys talking about OS upgrades? [19:12:59] <cmihai> Yeah. Upgradeing/updateing/patching UNIX is such a pita [19:13:10] <cmihai> FireflyST: pretty much [19:13:51] <FireflyST> that's what I like about Atari MiNT...to upgrade the kernel, you put the new .PRG file in the Auto folder :) [19:14:10] <cmihai> Heh [19:14:13] <cmihai> Microkernel? [19:14:25] <cmihai> That's what's cool about Minix. [19:14:26] <_syphilis_> but an OS is more than a kernel [19:14:32] <cmihai> You can reboot into a new kernel on the fly :) [19:14:55] <cmihai> _syphilis_: tell that to the Linux geeks [19:15:01] <FireflyST> I don't know how to explain MiNT [19:15:32] <cmihai> MiNT is Now TOS [19:15:33] <cmihai> :)) [19:15:46] <FireflyST> It's a bizarre beast all its own, even though it's very much BSD-styled, but the GUI is GEM, and the packaging is RPM [19:16:20] <cmihai> It's one of the few things I haven't got to play with [19:16:21] <cmihai> Damn. [19:16:29] <cmihai> Pretty much done everything else, lol [19:16:54] <darkcmd> does anyone know of any free shell providers with HP-UX? [19:17:03] <cmihai> Though QNX was really the only thing I found to be worth something. Too bad... [19:17:06] <cmihai> darkcmd: yep. hp.com [19:17:15] <cmihai> I have testdrive accounts from HP... [19:17:26] <darkcmd> hmm [19:17:27] <darkcmd> I need to do that [19:17:33] <cmihai> They give you OpenVMS, HP-UX, Tru64 UNIX and Alphas, PA-RISC and Itanium platforms [19:17:39] <cmihai> They even have NetBSD, FreeBSD and Debian [19:17:42] <cmihai> :) [19:17:54] <cmihai> Well, it's free. [19:18:01] <darkcmd> oooh NetBSD [19:18:06] <cmihai> Yep, on PA-RISC :) [19:18:09] <cmihai> And Alpha [19:18:14] <cmihai> Well, FreeBSD on Alpha [19:18:37] <cmihai> + you get to try versions of OpenVMS not released yet :) [19:18:49] <cmihai> Lots of devel versions... even for HP-UX [19:19:16] <FireflyST> I had 0-day copies of VMS 8.3 [19:19:25] <cmihai> lol [19:19:27] <cmihai> warez? [19:20:02] <FireflyST> well, only sort of, because the license is free, and you're allowed to give it to other people [19:20:22] <cmihai> You mean the hobbyist license or what [19:20:23] <FireflyST> but I don't think who I got it from was supposed to have it at that point [19:20:44] <cmihai> I don't think so either. [19:21:15] <cmihai> I can't get my claws on OpenVMS 8.2 even [19:21:23] <cmihai> Let alone 8.3 [19:22:05] *** Orac2 has quit IRC [19:22:24] *** hmdl has joined #opensolaris [19:23:28] <hmdl> hi, im looking forward to learn solaris, basically I want to learn the basic sysadmin tasks [19:23:59] <hmdl> I looked for a "pure" open solaris live cd distro but couldnt find any good one [19:24:46] <FireflyST> I think you need to install SOlaris Express first if I'm not mistaken [19:25:19] <cmihai> hmdl: try BeleniX or Nexenta [19:25:38] <cmihai> But Solaris Express + OpenSolaris LiveCD's.. hm... [19:25:51] <cmihai> I don't think you can distribute that [19:26:08] <hmdl> Nexenta says on the website that they doesnt have the live cd ready yet [19:26:14] <cmihai> Bullshit [19:26:21] <cmihai> I've used it like half an year ago [19:26:26] <cmihai> Look harder. [19:26:56] <FireflyST> he's surfing on archive.org :) [19:27:06] <hmdl> Nexenta Alpha 6 Known problems : LiveCD is not available yet. [19:27:12] <cmihai> FireflyST: they probably don't have a LiveCD yet for the LATEST Nexenta [19:27:17] <cmihai> But there are LiveCD's of older releases. [19:28:44] <hmdl> is Belenix more "solaris based" than Nexenta? [19:29:05] <cmihai> You want Solaris, install Solaris. [19:29:12] <cmihai> You can use VMWare if you really want to. [19:30:25] <Kmays> Martux..SPARC/x86 LiveDVD [19:30:48] <darkcmd> hmdl: most of Solaris Express is open, except the parts that couldn't be because of licensing issues [19:31:00] <cmihai> Eg: CDE [19:33:31] <darkcmd> what kind of access is testdrive, ssh? [19:34:04] <cmihai> darkcmd: telnet ;p [19:34:06] <cmihai> Really! [19:34:30] <cmihai> Everything is telnet. [19:34:34] <cmihai> But the COOL part is [19:34:38] <cmihai> You have a shared NFS home [19:34:43] <cmihai> for all your systems on Testdrive [19:34:48] <darkcmd> nice [19:34:51] <_syphilis_> except the VMS systems, unless that changed recently [19:34:54] <cmihai> RedHat, Suse, Tru64, VMS, Debian, everything [19:35:09] <cmihai> _syphilis_: I belive the VMS has a shared home also. [19:35:10] <darkcmd> I'll stay away from SuSE [19:35:21] <cmihai> hehe [19:35:35] <darkcmd> it's tainted [19:35:57] <cmihai> No poing really [19:36:03] <cmihai> Tru64 seems to be down though. [19:36:06] <cmihai> Maybe even removed. [19:36:51] <cmihai> OpenVMS seems up though. [19:38:39] <cmihai> HP-UX td164 B.11.23 U ia64 (ta) [19:38:42] <cmihai> So does the HP [19:39:17] <cmihai> Last time I logged in some asshole was forkbombing it [19:39:58] <Kmays> Belenix provides the KDE solution on Solaris... Nexenta for GNOME... (just needs the JDS integration if they want it) [19:40:31] <cmihai> Crap, look what they replaced Tru64 on testdrive with [19:40:32] <cmihai> Red Hat Enterprise Linux Server release 4.92 (Tikanga) [19:41:05] *** nbkk6fo_ has joined #opensolaris [19:41:05] *** nbkk6fo__ has quit IRC [19:42:54] <cmihai> Lol, they even added "Mandrake Corporate" [19:43:37] <cmihai> Removed NetBSD :(. All they have is HP-UX, VMS, Win2k3, SLES, RHEL5, Debian and FBSD [19:44:44] *** easypwn has joined #opensolaris [19:47:46] * cmihai gets it. They removed the Alphas too. A dead platform is a dead platform I guess. [19:48:48] <darkcmd> when i signed up, it allowed me to choose the alpha [19:49:01] <cmihai> Well, it's not there anymore. [19:49:08] <darkcmd> but its not in the list to log into [19:49:17] <cmihai> www.testdrive.hp.com/current.shtml [19:49:23] <darkcmd> I'm on the PARISC running HP-UX B.11.23 right now [19:49:50] <cmihai> td164? [19:49:55] <darkcmd> 191 [19:50:25] <cmihai> darkcmd pts/tc Dec 31 13:46 [19:50:29] <cmihai> who :P [19:51:46] <darkcmd> is talk disabled on this server [19:52:03] <darkcmd> the HP-UX machine [19:52:18] <cmihai> No idea [19:52:35] <darkcmd> I went to do talk cmihai, and it says party is refusing messages [19:52:39] *** philuk86 has joined #opensolaris [19:52:57] <cmihai> Same here [19:53:02] <philuk86> anyone around who is familiar with the zfs codebase? [19:53:43] <jteo> just ask. [19:55:03] *** deather__ has joined #opensolaris [19:57:10] <philuk86> ok. Can you tell me how ZFS goes about mounting existing pools after a restart?. [19:57:56] <jteo> you mean a reboot? [19:58:28] <jteo> "zfs mount -a" is invoked via the smf service filesystem/local [19:58:53] <jteo> zfs module then mounts the pool. (via cached binary data) [19:59:24] <jteo> "/etc/zfs/zpool.cache" [19:59:44] <jteo> it then opens the root vdev, etc etc, checks the uberblock etc. [20:05:05] <cmihai> "Would you like to buy a 10MB, 25MB, 50MB or 100MB mailbox" -> mail.yahoo.com [20:05:13] <cmihai> LoL, how very stupid. [20:05:31] <cmihai> This is right below: [20:05:32] <cmihai> You are using 7% of your 1.0GB MB limit [20:05:46] <Auralis> lol [20:05:59] *** nachox has joined #opensolaris [20:06:08] <cmihai> Logged in with elinks so it redirected me to the older yahoo mail look :) [20:06:15] <cmihai> The one with no adds :) [20:06:36] <nachox> anyone with some ndis experience in solaris i could use for a minute? [20:07:03] <cmihai> As jteo stated, just ask :) [20:07:06] <darkcmd> i thought ndis was windows [20:07:29] <elektronkind> ndis is windows [20:07:50] <elektronkind> ndis-wrapper is a ddi to ndis translation layer [20:08:05] <darkcmd> ddi? [20:08:06] <cmihai> Yeah, but there's ndis-wrapper... heh [20:08:17] <elektronkind> so one may use windows ndis binary drivers on solaris (or linux) [20:08:19] <cmihai> Project Eeeeevil :) [20:08:26] <cmihai> elektronkind: or FreeBSD :P [20:08:31] <nachox> the instructions to build the ndis modules in the opensolaris ndis web page are wrong right? [20:08:44] <cmihai> Are they? [20:08:48] <elektronkind> "ddi" is short for the solaris driver interface [20:08:49] <nachox> make ndis complains about a missing ndis.inf [20:09:57] <darkcmd> ndis-wrapper just seems like a cop out [20:10:32] <cmihai> Wow, VMWARE 6 has support for XInerma-like stuff [20:10:43] <cmihai> And integrated debugger with Eclipse [20:10:55] <cmihai> That would be a ring-0 debugger I take it [20:12:18] <darkcmd> are parisc machines that will run the latest hp-ux very expensive [20:12:51] *** Mazon is now known as mazon [20:13:07] <cmihai> darkcmd: you'd probably want an Itanic [20:13:32] <cmihai> darkcmd: and yes, they are quite expensive. But HP-UX 11.11v2 runs fine on Itanics [20:13:41] *** deather_ has quit IRC [20:13:50] <darkcmd> well I want the cheapest machine I can run a recent version of HP-UX with [20:14:05] <cmihai> Getting HP-UX is the tricky part. [20:14:12] <cmihai> You can probably find a cheap Itanic for under 1000$ [20:14:24] <cmihai> PA-RISC machines are tricky to find, even on ebay. [20:14:47] <darkcmd> how much does HP-UX usually run? [20:15:35] *** smboy has joined #opensolaris [20:15:47] <cmihai> What do you mean [20:15:56] *** nachox has quit IRC [20:16:16] <cmihai> Price tag? [20:16:23] <cmihai> Depends on what enviroment you choose [20:16:23] *** nbkk6fo_ has quit IRC [20:16:29] <cmihai> The basic one... Foundation... [20:16:50] <smboy> VERSION [20:17:38] <darkcmd> smboy: what's up with the CTCP version? [20:18:13] <hmdl> annoying [20:18:36] <smboy> my apologies, didn't know it was disruptive [20:18:47] <smboy> just wanted to know what most people were running [20:18:48] <cmihai> Did he just CTCP the chan?! [20:18:53] <quasi> cmihai: yes [20:19:17] <delewis> smboy, congratulations, now, you know most of us are running Solaris. [20:19:40] <cmihai> deja-vu [20:19:57] <quasi> delewis: somehow I doubt that more than half of the clients here are run on solaris [20:20:13] <delewis> quasi, probably. [20:20:22] <quasi> always good to know if someone is running an exploitable client ;) [20:20:49] <smboy> here's the pastebin: http://pastebin.ca/298241 [20:20:52] <delewis> telnet irc.freenode.net 6667 [20:21:01] *** iakovz has joined #opensolaris [20:21:04] <iakovz> hi [20:21:07] *** nachox has joined #opensolaris [20:21:14] <nachox> sorry, i had a little connection problem :P [20:21:15] <iakovz> HUNY everybody [20:21:41] <smboy> I wonder if I could sort them based on the second argument + [20:21:48] <delewis> Kitty: BBC Micro - Model B, Raw Telnet IRC [20:21:50] <delewis> nice :-) [20:22:41] <hmdl> why im not there? [20:22:58] <quasi> hmdl: the list is far from complete [20:23:14] <quasi> 20:18 -!- Irssi: #opensolaris: Total of 167 nicks [2 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 165 normal] [20:23:19] <nachox> anyway, i'm dealing with an intel wireless card, i followed the steps in the ndis web page in the laptop community and i got a missing ndis.inf error. i assumed that the ndis.inf it was asking for was really the inf file of the windows driver so i renamed the inf file to ndis.inf and the sys fileto ndis.sys [20:23:28] <smboy> hmdl: do you have +C as your user modes ? [20:23:39] <hmdl> nope [20:23:44] <darkcmd> darkcmd: irssi v0.8.9 - running on SunOS sun4u :D [20:23:45] <quasi> nachox: which intel card? ipw3945? [20:24:19] <nachox> i did all the process again and now the modload fails [20:24:28] <smboy> darkcmd: what's the difference between sun4u and sparc64 [20:24:45] <nachox> a 3945abg, yes [20:24:52] *** minerale has joined #opensolaris [20:24:58] <darkcmd> smboy: sun4u is sparc64 [20:25:25] <smboy> darkcmd: then why does irssi sometimes reply sun4u and then sometimes sparc64 ? [20:25:29] <_syphilis_> iirc, SPARC64 is the trademark for Fujitsu's 64-bit SPARC implemenetation [20:25:34] <smboy> ie # [20:25:37] <smboy> dlg: irssi v0.8.9 - running on OpenBSD sparc64 [20:25:42] *** tonu has joined #opensolaris [20:25:51] <delewis> smboy, completely implemention-dependent. [20:25:57] <_syphilis_> so using 'sparc64' to refer to ultrasparc is misleading [20:26:08] <delewis> _syphilis_, yes, but not surprising [20:26:13] <delewis> SPARC == Sun. [20:26:20] <delewis> [sic] [20:27:00] <_syphilis_> smboy: that is the OS's name for the machine. presumably openbsd calls all 64-bit sparcs 'sparc64'. solaris is more specific: sun4u, sun4v,... [20:27:14] <darkcmd> what is sun4v? [20:27:20] <nachox> quasi: any idea? [20:27:25] <_syphilis_> darkcmd: ultrasparc with virtualisation hardware (T1) [20:28:44] <smboy> Sun-4v (V presumably for "virtualized"): this is a variation on Sun-4u which includes hypervisor processor virtualization, introduced in the UltraSPARC T1 (Niagara) multicore processor. Supported by Solaris 10 3/05 HW2 onwards. [20:29:10] <smboy> from ^^ en.wikipedia.org/wiki/sun4u [20:32:58] *** Deformative has joined #opensolaris [20:34:57] *** jsubl2 has joined #opensolaris [20:36:49] <quasi> nachox: I've heard rumors that sun people use toshiba tecra laptops with that type of wifi card, so it should be possible with ndis [20:37:35] <nachox> quasi: anyone you know? i could really use a hand [20:39:09] <quasi> nachox: if it was me, I'd try dropping a mail on the laptop-discuss list [20:39:49] <quasi> nachox: I'm pretty sure I saw Casper Dik with one of those toshibas, but the list is likely to be a good startingpoint [20:40:00] <estibi> btw, which laptops do you recommend for opensolaris ? [20:40:03] *** iakovz has quit IRC [20:40:16] <delewis> estibi, Acer Ferraris are quite popular [20:40:25] <delewis> but I also hear Toshiba is good, as well. [20:40:52] <darkcmd> aren [20:40:59] <darkcmd> aren't IBM thinkpads pretty good [20:41:12] <delewis> most of them, I think. [20:41:14] <nachox> my dell had no problems running solaris except for the wireless card and the sound card [20:41:19] <delewis> I had no trouble installing Solaris on a T43 [20:41:31] <delewis> but that's not a very recent Thinkpad, either. [20:41:43] <estibi> becouse solaris doesn't work with my fujitsu siemens at all :( [20:41:46] <_syphilis_> T43 is not exactly old either [20:41:51] <_syphilis_> my desktop is a T43p :) [20:41:52] <xinkeT> it's about two years [20:42:05] <quasi> nachox: http://www.opensolaris.org/jive/thread.jspa?threadID=14684&tstart=45 [20:42:11] <delewis> _syphilis_, so I say, but apparently there's a populat that thinks < 2GHz systems are "ancient". [20:42:18] <delewis> populating, rather. [20:42:21] * delewis can't type today [20:43:49] <nachox> quasi: damn, i'm out of luck, i will have to wait... [20:44:02] <estibi> i have amd64 with ATI chipset and SATA drive .. [20:44:11] <darkcmd> ATI :/ [20:44:21] <estibi> yes :( [20:44:34] <darkcmd> another sign that the x86 realm is influenced by gamers [20:44:41] * delewis recalls when ATI > Nvidia [20:44:56] <Kmays> N > A [20:45:03] <delewis> now, it seems to have reversed. [20:45:08] <delewis> everybody used to love ATI pre-Radeon. [20:45:12] <delewis> and hated Nvidia. [20:45:15] <nachox> and nvidia has good solaris drivers [20:45:40] <Kmays> Excellent OpenGL implementation too [20:45:58] <_syphilis_> hmm, personally i care very little about graphics cards, i don't even know what model this system has [20:46:05] <_syphilis_> (other than it's some ati) [20:46:06] <delewis> _syphilis_, indeed. [20:46:21] <delewis> I'm satisfied with my Elite3D for the most part, and my peecee has a GeForce 2 in it, which serves my needs well. [20:46:54] <hmdl> I really enjoy using Compiz on my FreeBSD machine at work [20:47:01] * delewis shudders [20:47:02] <Kmays> If you do CAD/CAM rendering... it'll be important. [20:47:08] <darkcmd> I'm not a big fan of these OpenGL desktops [20:47:23] <nachox> i am running this laptop with the vesa driver, i couldnt care less about graphics as long i get basic jds :) [20:47:35] <_syphilis_> Kmays: i do command-line application development and unix administration ;-) [20:47:37] <delewis> Kmays, even CAD/CAM don't require what Nvidia is pushing out, nowadays. [20:47:39] <quasi> nachox: try mailing the list - maybe a little nudge will be enough for them to release [20:47:56] <delewis> CAD/CAM are largely PIO, where Nvidia specializes in DMA (large texture memories, and so fourth) [20:48:01] <nachox> i will mail, yes [20:49:08] <Kmays> :P Very true... the content creation piece and 3D visualizations peices though require a little elbow room though. Nvidia cards are MORE than enough in those areas. [20:50:11] <delewis> most CATIA shops (Boeing, etc.) still have RS/6000s. [20:50:45] <cmihai> Heh [20:50:55] <cmihai> Got one of those here. [20:50:57] <cmihai> Good machines. [20:51:12] <delewis> yes, one of CATIA's more popular platforms. [20:51:19] <delewis> it's amazing how many people have such systems [20:51:32] <delewis> all of the automotive manufacturers do CATIA on RS/6000 or SGI. [20:51:35] <cmihai> Though most CATIA stations here were Solaris based [20:51:40] <darkcmd> I've always wanted an RS/6000 to run AIX [20:51:43] <delewis> Boeing is largely RS/6000-based. [20:51:54] <delewis> (the 777 was designed on RS/6000s) [20:52:29] <delewis> and of the later submarine classes (Los Angeles-class, I believe) was designed on Catia and RS/6000. [20:52:37] <cmihai> System Model: IBM,7026-H70 Memory Size: 2304MB :) [20:52:51] <Kmays> :) Cool [20:52:52] <cmihai> RS/6000 with 2 PowerPC_RS64-II @ 400 Mhz :) [20:52:57] <delewis> heh, I love my pSeries p640 (RS/6000 model 7026-B80) [20:53:01] <cmihai> ;) [20:53:16] <delewis> 2x375MHz POWER3-IIs /w 8MB of cache/proc and 2GB of memory. [20:53:27] <darkcmd> hmm, are these machines much? [20:53:38] <hali> cheap on ebay with some luck [20:53:41] <delewis> darkcmd, pSeries p640 runs $600-$2k [20:53:44] <hali> usually heap from germany [20:53:46] <hali> cheap* [20:53:47] <cmihai> delewis: damn, guess I can never beat you when it comes to hardware :P [20:54:02] <delewis> you can find something a bit more entry-level like a 44p-170 [20:54:07] <delewis> those run around $400 [20:54:19] <delewis> Elarasys is a good vendor for used RS/6000 and pSeries hardware. [20:55:34] <darkcmd> delewis: are you are UNIX hardware collector? [20:55:53] <delewis> darkcmd, somewhat. Most of my hardware is fairly modern, though (within the last 10 years) [20:55:59] <cmihai> Heh [20:56:10] <delewis> the exception being my SPARCstation 5 [20:56:29] <cmihai> I mostly envy you for your e4500 and A5200 :P [20:56:29] <delewis> I do have an RS/6000 7025-F40 with 1x166MHz PowerPC 604e and 640MB of memory (circa 1994) [20:56:42] <delewis> it was ordered in 1994 with 640MB of memory ;-) [20:57:05] <delewis> cmihai, E4500 is powered off at the moment :-) [20:57:08] <delewis> it's too hot here today [20:57:15] *** UnixTitan has joined #opensolaris [20:57:16] <cmihai> lol [20:57:23] <cmihai> I guess you're not in need of heating... [20:57:31] <cmihai> Even in the coldest Russian winter :) [20:58:02] <delewis> hmm, not really. With a window open and temperatures around 30-40F, it's actually quite comforrtable with the E4500 on. [20:58:10] <delewis> :-) [20:58:11] <cmihai> Heh [20:58:24] <delewis> room temp averages around 68F [20:58:25] <cmihai> Do you pay your own powerbill? :P [20:58:30] <cmihai> delewis: what's that in human [20:58:31] <delewis> cmihai, a portion of it. [20:58:32] <cmihai> delewis -h [20:58:33] <cmihai> :) [20:58:50] <delewis> the E4500+A5200 runs around $40/month. [20:58:53] <cmihai> 68 degrees Fahrenheit = 20 degrees Celsius [20:58:56] <cmihai> <3 google [20:59:23] <cmihai> It's calculator is scary sometimes ;) [20:59:42] <delewis> yes, when calculators have hyperbolic functions and do complex numbers, I tend to worry. [20:59:45] <delewis> a google calculator, anyway [20:59:48] <cmihai> delewis: so it's fair to say your hardware costs 200$/month as a total? :) [20:59:51] <delewis> I expect my HP calculators to have such capabilities :-) [20:59:53] <darkcmd> delewis: so how much of SVR4 is left in Solaris? [21:00:05] <delewis> cmihai, not even that much. [21:00:14] <delewis> I'd estimate $120-$150 at the most. [21:00:15] <cmihai> Heh, good old HP calculators... those things were awesome [21:00:24] <delewis> darkcmd, uh, lots. [21:00:32] <delewis> STREAMs are SVR4 [21:00:53] <_syphilis_> TLI is svr4 (well, svr3) [21:00:55] <UnixTitan> anyone have a solaris packge for the realtek hd audio? [21:01:04] <cmihai> yeah, opensound.com [21:01:10] <_syphilis_> the svr4 packaging system is svr4 :) [21:01:13] <cmihai> Their OSS has everything for everything. [21:01:14] <delewis> _syphilis_, :-) [21:01:17] <delewis> you don't say [21:02:04] <delewis> darkcmd, if you're curious about Solaris internals and SVR4 internals, I'd recommend Solaris Internals and "The Design of the UNIX Operating System," respectively. [21:02:19] <darkcmd> delewis: thanks for the recommendation :D [21:02:19] <delewis> the latter is written around System V. [21:02:32] <delewis> and mentions BSD occasionally, when its worthy. [21:02:42] <darkcmd> Is BSD that bad? [21:02:49] <delewis> by the late 80s, yes. [21:02:58] <delewis> and in the early 90s, it was dead. [21:03:17] <darkcmd> so most everything was SVR4 based in the early 90s? [21:03:21] <cmihai> And in the early 90's it was sued ;P [21:03:37] <delewis> darkcmd, for the most part. [21:03:43] <delewis> all the vendors were starting to transition [21:03:46] <cmihai> The big bad policy was to switch from BSD ASAP [21:03:52] <delewis> BSD had a difficult implementing standards and staying consistent. [21:04:26] <darkcmd> How much do the current BSD varients resemble the BSD of old? [21:04:28] <_syphilis_> was 4.4BSD even used in production anywhere? [21:04:34] <delewis> _syphilis_, nah. [21:04:41] <delewis> well, those that had BSDi systems. [21:05:12] <cmihai> _syphilis_: hm.. [21:05:20] <cmihai> _syphilis_: still have BSD 4.3-Tahoe in production :) [21:05:26] <cmihai> On teh VAX ;] [21:05:27] <_syphilis_> cmihai: i know 4.3 was [21:05:36] <UnixTitan> cmihai: um.. don't think so [21:05:40] <delewis> darkcmd, they use the 4.4BSD Lite sources. [21:05:41] <_syphilis_> but 4.4 dropped VAX support and i don't think it was a popular choice for the archs it did support [21:06:07] <delewis> 4.4 was never that popular, given the lawsuits, and so fourth. [21:06:10] <darkcmd> delewis: that would make the BSDs more of a true UNIX than Linux of course, I assume. [21:06:12] *** Trident has quit IRC [21:06:16] <delewis> darkcmd, absolutely. [21:06:17] <cmihai> Yeah, that pretty much killed of BSD [21:06:22] *** Trident has joined #opensolaris [21:06:23] <delewis> Linux isn't even remotely a true Unix. [21:06:30] <delewis> it is derived from a completely independent codebase. [21:06:47] <darkcmd> it is meant to resemble UNIX then? [21:06:54] <delewis> the various free BSD variants are Unixen, but fairly primitive for the most part, compared to something like Solaris. [21:07:06] <cneira_> why linux is used so much in production i mean i have seen many companies using it instead of freebsd as being free also [21:07:08] <delewis> darkcmd, sort of. [21:07:23] <cmihai> cneira_: backing from huge vendors mostly. [21:07:28] <delewis> basically users of Minix couldn't get features implemented because Tanenbaum wanted to keep it for educational purposes [21:07:31] <delewis> and not over-complicated [21:07:32] <cmihai> Even IBM is pushing for Linux in some parts. [21:07:35] <delewis> hence, the birth of Linux. [21:08:01] <Auralis> simple, linux gehts hyped through the roof, and those who screem the loudest wind [21:08:02] <darkcmd> I've been using Solaris recently, and I love it. [21:08:11] <delewis> Auralis, yes [21:08:14] <UnixTitan> hell I've heard of cases where sun funds linux distrobutions [21:08:14] <nachox> dont forget that a lot of apps have support for linux and not for any bsd [21:08:15] <delewis> storage on Linux is a joke. [21:08:31] <delewis> there's no way you could run a business off of Linux-based storage. [21:08:35] <cmihai> I'd say the same for BSD [21:08:38] <delewis> cmihai, definitely [21:08:46] <delewis> the free BSD variants don't even support fibre-channel. [21:08:47] <darkcmd> Slackware like I said before, is the only Linux distribution I like. [21:08:58] <delewis> *zero* fibre-channel support. [21:09:07] <delewis> and people expect to push that nonsense into the enterprise [21:09:08] * delewis hrmphs [21:09:18] <UnixTitan> darkcmd: why? linux = linux = linux. the core is the same no matter what. [21:09:27] <UnixTitan> ext, resier, or xfs.. [21:09:29] <_syphilis_> delewis: google suggests freebsd has FC support [21:09:39] <UnixTitan> with a 2.6 kernel [21:09:44] <UnixTitan> and gcc [21:09:44] <delewis> _syphilis_, look on the supported device list. [21:09:49] <darkcmd> Slackware feels a bit different to me [21:09:50] <delewis> you will not find a single fibre-channel HBA. [21:10:02] <UnixTitan> darkcmd: :) [21:10:03] <nachox> linux has support for lustre which is cool [21:10:05] *** philuk86 has quit IRC [21:10:08] <cmihai> Even so, FFS is old... [21:10:22] <cmihai> And fscking a 24TB array.... woohoo :) [21:10:37] <cmihai> fsck needs like 1MB of RAM for 1GB of disk. [21:10:38] <estibi> ;) [21:10:42] <cmihai> Do the math [21:10:49] <delewis> http://www.freebsd.org/releases/6.1R/hardware-i386.html#SUPPORT [21:10:52] <delewis> not a single fibre HBA. [21:10:52] <darkcmd> So I assume that SVR4 UNIX is the first version of UNIX that AT&T commercialized, because of that deal with the anti-trust suit. [21:10:59] <delewis> darkcmd, not SVR4 [21:11:07] <delewis> there was System V, System V Release 2, as well. [21:11:14] <darkcmd> oh [21:11:19] <darkcmd> so SysV then [21:11:20] <delewis> System V was largely seen as a joke until Release 2 and Release 4. [21:11:31] <_syphilis_> delewis: i see several [21:11:42] <_syphilis_> example: LSI Logic FC919 (2Gb/s Fibre Channel) [21:11:45] <cmihai> Unix wars :) [21:12:09] <delewis> _syphilis_, ah, qlogic, too :-( [21:12:12] <darkcmd> The Ultra 10 has no DMA for IDE does it? [21:12:15] <delewis> I wonder why there's not any Emulex support [21:12:24] <delewis> darkcmd, no [21:12:27] <cmihai> IBM HP and DEC pushing for OSF vs. Sun & AT&T pushing for SRV 4 :) [21:12:48] <darkcmd> OSF died pretty quick, or is Tru64 OSF based? [21:12:51] <cmihai> It is. [21:12:54] <_syphilis_> darkcmd: SCO OpenServer is still SVR3 based [21:13:02] <_syphilis_> darkcmd: although they call it SVR5 nowadays [21:13:03] <cmihai> Mach kernel on OSF/1 and some BSD code [21:13:07] * delewis wonders who'd still use OpenServer [21:13:11] <delewis> at least use UnixWare [21:13:12] <cmihai> But Tru64 is pretty much dying [21:13:21] <cmihai> delewis: we used to :P [21:13:24] <_syphilis_> delewis: people who use it tell me it's still entrenched in the POS market [21:13:27] <cmihai> Well, Unixware anyway. [21:13:28] <darkcmd> Yeah, SCO is a bunch of scumbags IMO [21:13:33] <nachox> delewis: people that paid a lot of money to get it and still have support [21:13:35] <delewis> Unixware was a re-write [21:13:44] <_syphilis_> darkcmd: well SCO isn't SCO, it's caldera [21:13:47] <delewis> OpenServer is SCO Unix which was System V [21:13:52] <jamesd_> hmm POS market == Piece of Shite market [21:13:53] <_syphilis_> they just own the name [21:13:54] <cneira_> _syphylis thats right in work we use sco osrv [21:13:59] <cneira_> for POS [21:14:06] <darkcmd> delewis: was SCO UNIX based off of the Xenix code they bought from Microsoft? [21:14:15] <cmihai> Novell [21:14:20] <cmihai> They bought it from Novell iirc. [21:14:23] <delewis> darkcmd, SCO was a licensed reseller of Xenix. [21:14:29] <darkcmd> sorry, my UNIX history is a bit rusty [21:14:30] <delewis> originally. [21:14:30] <darkcmd> :D [21:14:58] <cneira_> in work there gonna replace sco boxes for rhel [21:15:15] <cneira_> im putting solaris on the table instead of rhel [21:15:30] <delewis> RHEL is quite far from enterprise-grade. [21:15:43] <delewis> it's hard to call something enterprise if it doesn't even have a decent volume manager. [21:15:44] <cneira_> rhel is crap [21:15:45] <_syphilis_> a year or so ago the front page on SCO's website was advertising "OpenServer 6.something: now with USB support!" [21:15:50] <darkcmd> Solaris fits all of my needs, my home machine, my mobile machine, everything [21:15:51] <delewis> _syphilis_, :-) [21:15:57] <cmihai> Sun bought SCO in 2001 didn't they? [21:16:03] <delewis> cmihai, wrong SCO. [21:16:09] *** cneira_ is now known as badcoder [21:16:10] <cmihai> As in The Santa Cruz Operation, not the EVIL SCO [21:16:13] <_syphilis_> cmihai: they bought Tarantella, the old-SCO [21:16:15] <delewis> cmihai, right. [21:16:28] <darkcmd> man the UNIX history, is one imbred history :D [21:16:37] <delewis> it's not that bad. [21:16:44] <badcoder> i used to have a beta of sco osrv 6 [21:16:49] <FireflyST> hey, question for you guys. Is there any reason you con think of why my scanner is detected when I'm logged in as root, but not as the account I created? [21:16:54] <delewis> as long as you know there are two separate forks of the original Bell Labs' Unix, you're fine. [21:16:58] <badcoder> it offers nothing that freebsd can do [21:17:01] <delewis> the rest falls in nicely after that [21:17:02] <badcoder> or solaris [21:17:11] <delewis> as you can distinctly classify them as BSD or SVR4-based. [21:17:18] <UnixTitan> http://www.tools.de/solaris/audio/ cmihai what about thesE? [21:17:22] <cmihai> Or OSF based :P [21:17:31] <cmihai> The 3rd unsuccessfull branch of UNIX :) [21:18:03] <cmihai> UnixTitan: all I can say is opensound.com probably has drivers. No idea about those, try and see. [21:18:12] <UnixTitan> k [21:18:21] <cmihai> I know OSS from opensound works on everything for everything. Or close enough. [21:18:22] <darkcmd> I've always had nothing but bad luck with OSS [21:18:25] <Auralis> UnixTitan: tried the original realtek drivers? [21:18:39] <UnixTitan> still have em :) [21:18:41] <UnixTitan> well [21:18:46] <UnixTitan> I have the linux (other) package [21:18:55] <UnixTitan> The didn't have a solaris pack [21:19:02] <badcoder> FireflyST are you using sane ? i cant make my scanner being detect in build 35 i hope in 53 it can. my scanner is worthless [21:19:31] <FireflyST> yes I'm using sane, but the scanner scans fine under root, just not under my account [21:19:40] <FireflyST> it's an account thing not a hardware problem [21:19:51] <badcoder> yes i know [21:20:04] <FireflyST> I'm using a testbuild [21:20:10] <nachox> maybe the regular user does not have permission to enumerate the scsi bus? [21:20:13] <darkcmd> delewis: so BSD, AT&T UNIX, and OSF which is pretty much dead [21:20:32] <FireflyST> I'm using a version compiled with libusb support [21:20:33] <_syphilis_> wasn't HP-UX forked from Version 6? [21:21:01] <FireflyST> nachox: how do I give the use [21:21:02] <delewis> darkcmd, definitely dead, but everything that exists nowadays is derived from one of those three (or originall Bell Labs' UNIX) [21:21:06] <FireflyST> r that sort of permissions? [21:21:26] <UnixTitan> I installed oss and tried to run osstest but it complained about no /dev/mixer [21:21:35] <nachox> no idea, but that was what used to happen in linux with my own scanner lots of years ago [21:21:38] <delewis> _syphilis_, I would be scared if that was the case :-) [21:21:45] <FireflyST> I put my account in every group I could think of, it didn't help [21:21:50] <_syphilis_> i might be wrong, maybe i'm thinking of something else [21:21:55] <delewis> UNIXv6 was pretty primitive, and for HP to cross-port BSD and System V features would be a PITA. [21:21:56] <darkcmd> delewis: is there any non dead UNIX based on OSF? [21:22:09] <delewis> darkcmd, nope, Tru64 was the last one. [21:22:24] <cmihai> HP-UX was originally written in PASCAL [21:22:27] <cmihai> for christ's sake [21:22:31] <cmihai> Well, the kernel anywho [21:22:36] <nachox> hp-ux added rbac recently, i thought all the unix had that a long time ago [21:23:10] <delewis> nachox, VMS had it, IRIX had it, Linux has it to some extent, and Solaris has received bits and pieces of it since Solaris 8. [21:23:17] *** yarihm has joined #OpenSolaris [21:23:24] <delewis> the Linux implementation is based off of the defunct POSIX spec [21:23:27] <delewis> so you know it's crap. [21:23:40] <delewis> the IRIX implementation is quite primitive, as well. [21:23:40] <darkcmd> POSIX specs are defunct? [21:23:41] <UnixTitan> looks like nevada has an audio hd driver that works with my card [21:23:41] <_syphilis_> there was a POSIX RBAC? [21:23:46] <delewis> and the VMS was is by far the most advanced one [21:23:51] <delewis> _syphilis_, there was [21:23:54] <delewis> the spec never got finalized. [21:24:09] <nachox> linux has it thought selinux which is not really endorced by any other than redhat [21:24:10] <_syphilis_> hmm, not surprising if it was as bad as the ACL spec :) [21:24:29] <darkcmd> nachox: SELinux is in the kernel [21:24:39] <delewis> well, I shouldn't say there was an RBAC POSIX spec [21:24:44] <delewis> it was a spec for least privileges [21:24:47] <UnixTitan> nachox: selinux is horrible. the devil. [21:24:55] <nachox> yes, i know, but check what happens in debian, setting selinux up is a mess [21:25:11] <darkcmd> UnixTitan: ironically the development was done by the NSA I believe [21:25:11] <UnixTitan> I was a core devel for caos linux (rpm based) [21:25:20] <UnixTitan> selinux was a biatch to deal with [21:25:33] <delewis> 1003.1e was the name of the spec [21:25:45] <_syphilis_> the odd thing about SELinux is that there's been a MAC framework for Linux for years [21:25:52] <_syphilis_> but SELinux for some reason has gotten all the press [21:26:05] <cmihai> Even FreeBSD got a MAC framework some time ago [21:26:10] <delewis> _syphilis_, and that MAC framework is based off of the defunct 1003.1e spec [21:26:25] <FireflyST> so nobody here knows what I need to do for direct access to devices from an account, say a usb device or the cdrom0 alias? [21:26:26] <_syphilis_> delewis: i don't think so. i'm talking about RSBAC (www.rsbac.de) [21:26:36] <delewis> ah [21:26:53] <nachox> freebsd has trusted bsd [21:27:00] <cmihai> Yeah [21:27:18] *** jlc has joined #opensolaris [21:27:20] *** dunc has joined #opensolaris [21:27:23] <_syphilis_> actually RSBAC is more flexible than just MAC, it provides quite a few models [21:27:25] <delewis> http://www.kernel.org/pub/linux/libs/security/linux-privs/kernel-2.4/capfaq-0.2.txt [21:27:30] <delewis> that's what I'm referring to [21:27:35] <_syphilis_> maybe that's why no-one used it, it was very complicated :) [21:27:44] * cmihai remembers Adamantix [21:27:56] <cmihai> God, I really did waste my time on useless crap. [21:28:19] <nachox> the problem with linux is that while there is one true kernel.org. all the damn distributions patch the hell out of it [21:28:54] <nachox> so you end up having to support selinux in some servers, apparmor in some others and grsecurity in the rest... [21:28:57] <delewis> nachox, of course, because features don't get implemented that people need. [21:29:01] <delewis> namely, real-time extensions [21:29:14] <delewis> every single vendor that did things with real-time had their own patchsets. [21:29:29] <jlc> take redhat for example the majority of there patches end up in kernel.org version [21:29:32] <badcoder> FireflyST http://blogs.sun.com/dp/date/20041223 [21:30:18] <delewis> I'm just fortunate I use a sane operating system. [21:30:23] *** Auralis has quit IRC [21:30:26] <_syphilis_> this Fedora kernel has 176 patches applied to it [21:30:40] *** Auralis has joined #opensolaris [21:30:49] <jlc> _syphilis_: does it matter? [21:30:54] <delewis> well, OpenSolaris distributions have the ability to do the same. [21:31:04] <nachox> delewis: that's why you have planning stages in which you define apies and stuff like that to avoid being hit by that [21:31:08] <delewis> and I'm certain each distribution has their own archive of patchsets. [21:31:19] <_syphilis_> jlc: it becomes a little annoying when every linux system has a completely different kernel :) [21:31:45] <_syphilis_> delewis: well there aren't official production releases of opensolaris yet [21:31:45] <jlc> same with all software at version levels too ;) [21:31:47] <delewis> and as restrictive as the ON commit process is, I think we'll see an increase of that in a number of years. [21:31:57] <delewis> _syphilis_, not by your definition, anyway (or mine) :-) [21:32:54] * _syphilis_ is still curious about what's going to happen when onnv is forked for S11 release [21:33:10] <delewis> _syphilis_, I've been wondering about that, too. [21:33:16] <delewis> precisely which build will be selected for the fork [21:33:18] <delewis> and so fourth. [21:34:03] <_syphilis_> i want to know if the S11 gate will still be public :) [21:34:52] <delewis> I won't cry if it isn't, but it would be a disappointment. [21:34:59] *** dunc has quit IRC [21:35:15] <nachox> delewis: i dont know, most of the developers understand that ON and ARC are there for a good reason [21:37:57] <UnixTitan> Auralis: the other pack from realteks website is for alsa. poo on that [21:38:40] <cmihai> UnixTitan: ahem, does OSS simply not support it or does it error out for you? [21:38:59] <UnixTitan> errored [21:39:08] <cmihai> Could you be more specific? [21:39:19] <cmihai> pkgadd, soundon. What happened? [21:39:33] <UnixTitan> sure [21:39:34] <FireflyST> yeah but something wierd is happening [21:39:53] <UnixTitan> cmihai: it cost 30 dollars? [21:39:55] <cmihai> No [21:39:58] <cmihai> It's free for personal use. [21:41:30] <UnixTitan> # soundon [21:41:32] <UnixTitan> # osstest [21:41:32] <UnixTitan> /dev/mixer: No such file or directory [21:41:32] <UnixTitan> The device file is missing from /dev. [21:41:32] <UnixTitan> Perhaps you have not installed Open Sound System yet [21:41:32] <UnixTitan> # [21:41:43] <cmihai> reboot. [21:41:56] <UnixTitan> also the install said this: [21:42:06] <UnixTitan> /dev/mixer: No such file or directory [21:42:07] <UnixTitan> /dev/mixer: No such file or directory [21:42:10] <UnixTitan> anyhow.. brb then. [21:42:33] *** UnixTitan has quit IRC [21:43:34] <badcoder> can i use solaris express in production for free ? [21:43:46] <cmihai> Break the law? [21:44:16] <jamesd_> badcoder, yes, but if it breaks its your problem not sun's [21:45:03] <badcoder> thanks , so im limited to nexenta if i dont want to spend some $ [21:45:10] <cmihai> Not really [21:45:29] <hmdl> anyone knows what is the default shell for openvms? [21:45:50] <jamesd_> solaris is free... just no support, and nexenta has no support options.. [21:46:03] <jamesd_> if you want support it will cost you. [21:46:10] <cmihai> DCL :) [21:46:11] <cmihai> hmdl: it's DCL [21:46:21] <hmdl> thanks [21:46:28] <cmihai> It uses Digital Command Language... it's... VMS specific. [21:46:39] <_syphilis_> there was DCL for RSX-11 too [21:46:41] <badcoder> wait , so i can use solaris 10 in production for no cost ? [21:46:42] <cmihai> But you can get sh via some POSIX compat package [21:46:43] *** UnixTitan has joined #opensolaris [21:46:54] <UnixTitan> cmihai: same error after reboot [21:47:17] <cmihai> Tried just playing music wish say rhythmbox? [21:47:33] <cmihai> If it still doesn't work, see the rest of the OSS tools, poke around, test. [21:47:36] <jamesd_> badcoder, yes.... only costs if you want support [21:47:46] <cmihai> hmdl: erm.. why ask? [21:47:47] <badcoder> ah ok thanks jamesd [21:48:06] <hmdl> I was testing hp testdrive [21:48:19] <hmdl> and didnt know on what shell I was on openvms [21:48:29] <jamesd_> but if you are using it for production, isn't $135 per cpu a cheap price? what does red hat cost these days? $400-$1400 [21:48:29] <cmihai> Heh [21:48:30] <_syphilis_> VMS doesn't really do shells like Unix does [21:48:37] <_syphilis_> everyone uses DCL [21:48:38] <cmihai> hmdl: are you darkcmd ? [21:48:45] <hmdl> no [21:48:46] <cmihai> Or did you also get an account? ;] [21:49:19] <cmihai> hmdl: well, DCL was common among DEC products, but OpenVMS is the only thing where it still lives... [21:49:30] <UnixTitan> cmihai: and there is still a red strike through the audio think in the panel [21:49:38] *** jafari has joined #opensolaris [21:49:51] <darkcmd> cmihai: I wanted to surprise you on there by initiating a talk session but I guess it doesn't allow it [21:49:54] <cmihai> UnixTitan: well, did you check the opensound supported cards list? [21:49:55] <badcoder> unixtitan prtconf -v search for audio [21:49:58] <hmdl> its worth learning OpenVMS these days? [21:50:05] <cmihai> darkcmd: I was trying the same thing actually :P [21:50:33] <cmihai> hmdl: could be. [21:50:34] <_syphilis_> darkcmd: you want 'phone' [21:50:53] <cmihai> _syphilis_: no, this was on a HP-UX [21:50:58] <_syphilis_> ah [21:51:01] <cmihai> hmdl: got a bunch in production here. [21:51:01] *** lasseoe has quit IRC [21:51:02] *** lasseoe has joined #opensolaris [21:51:04] <UnixTitan> badcoder: nothing [21:51:07] <cmihai> hmdl: could be a powerfull work asset. [21:51:23] <cmihai> I call it "job security" :P) [21:52:00] <cmihai> Having Oracle on OpenVMS Alpha clusters is a clear way torwards bulletproof job security [21:52:19] <_syphilis_> cmihai: Rdb? :) [21:52:21] <cmihai> Yep [21:52:28] <hmdl> who uses Oracle on OpenVMS? [21:52:37] <cmihai> Well, we do :) [21:52:41] <hali> lots of companies :) [21:52:44] <Auralis> especialy when you learn how to fix brocken alpha cpus with magic [21:52:47] <Auralis> alpha is dead [21:52:48] <cmihai> And so does the Army, medical industry, etc. [21:52:52] <hali> vms used to be one of the biggest platforms for oracle... [21:52:53] <_syphilis_> hmdl: oracle/rdb is one of the main applications for openvms [21:53:07] <cmihai> London Tube, Paris subway, etc. [21:53:08] <hali> oracle bought decdb back in the day [21:53:19] <cmihai> Helthcare, etc. [21:53:29] <darkcmd> cmihai: may I message you? [21:53:40] <_syphilis_> actually, Oracle still feels like a VMS application even on UNIX in many places [21:53:47] <UnixTitan> bah Saints lost. Oh well they will run the playoffs [21:53:48] <hali> and i wouldn't say vms is dead, HP have commited to support and maintain it until 2013 (or something like that) [21:53:51] <badcoder> anyone has worked with POS ? [21:53:52] <cmihai> Stull like Rolling updates and the likes make VMS quite powerfull a platform [21:54:08] <hali> badcoder: point of sale? [21:54:11] *** patilha has joined #opensolaris [21:54:14] <cmihai> hali: they're still developing new versions [21:54:19] <badcoder> hali yes [21:54:24] <cmihai> And they did port it to Itanium [21:54:26] <cmihai> darkcmd: sure [21:54:51] <hali> badcoder: i've worked for a company who did pos solutions via mobile [21:55:18] <badcoder> hali : have you dealed with c-tree ? [21:55:18] <hali> the biggest problem with vms now is that it's only available on rubbish hardware [21:55:34] <hali> badcoder: some in ram database or something right? [21:56:09] *** nbkk6fo_ has joined #opensolaris [21:56:16] *** nbkk6fo_ is now known as rbrown [21:56:17] <hali> i thought most pos systems used sqlserver or oracle backends... that's what we saw and used [21:56:22] <myrkraverk> hali: what do you mean "rubbish hw"? [21:56:30] <patilha> anyone tried opensolaris on compaq nw8440? [21:56:31] <hali> myrkraverk: itanic [21:56:36] <myrkraverk> hali: ah [21:56:51] <hali> myrkraverk: compare a VAXen build with a newish HP itanic :) [21:57:42] <hali> i think someone wrote some vm layer to run vms for vax on x86 machines [21:57:43] <myrkraverk> hali: I can't -- never really used VAX or itanic (I mostly log on to an alpha, where I can get a VMS account :P ) [21:57:45] <minerale> I'm having trouble compiling irssi on sunos -- could anyone who has it compiled on sun4u arch give me a copy of /modules/*.so* ? [21:58:08] * nachox thinks hp-ux will die sooner than VMS :P [21:58:16] <minerale> I need /modules/libscript_core.so -- not sure if that depends on others [21:58:23] <hali> myrkraverk: alpha is waaay nicer than imo [21:58:30] <hali> the only decent itanium box is the superdome [21:58:38] <darkcmd> Does anyone know why people on my machine would not be getting invitations to talk requests [21:59:03] <cmihai> hali: simh [21:59:15] <cmihai> You can run VMS on VAX with the simh VAX emulator. [21:59:22] <hmdl> does HP-UX use DCL as default shell too? [21:59:23] <cmihai> That's only 60 times slower than native [21:59:34] <cmihai> hmdl: no. [21:59:35] <myrkraverk> hmdl: afaik, no :P [21:59:36] <cmihai> It uses sh. [21:59:39] *** cwebber has quit IRC [21:59:42] <cmihai> HP-UX isn't DEC :) [22:00:12] <hali> cmihai: ah yes.. thats the one [22:00:17] <hmdl> HP-UX testdrive doesnt appear to be using sh [22:00:20] <_syphilis_> hmdl: VMS isn't a UNIX, the answer to "Does <a Unix> use <OpenVMS thing>" is generally no. [22:01:22] <myrkraverk> would anyone here know where I can get some info an writing NIC drivers? (not solaris specific) - I'd like to try to add stuff to bge (broadcom driver) [22:01:38] <myrkraverk> hmdl: no, iirc it was (is?) tcsh [22:02:02] <cmihai> It's sh. [22:02:16] <myrkraverk> cmihai: on testdrive? [22:02:27] <cmihai> No, on HP-UX. [22:02:30] <cmihai> By default. [22:02:33] <myrkraverk> ah, k [22:02:42] <cmihai> But testdrive uses shared NFS home, etc. [22:04:15] <smboy> charlieS, darkcmd, FireflyST, BadKarma, DataStream, wilbury, r3boot: fellow sun4u users, could you give minerale a hand (/lastlog minerale) [22:04:34] <smboy> minerale: this might be useful: http://pastebin.ca/298241 :P [22:05:31] <minerale> um, thanks [22:06:06] *** smboy has quit IRC [22:07:22] *** patilha has left #opensolaris [22:15:32] *** jsubl2 has quit IRC [22:29:17] <myrkraverk> just to be a pestilence: if anyone wants to help ----> http://www.opensolaris.org/jive/thread.jspa?threadID=21046&tstart=0 [22:29:18] *** jlc has quit IRC [22:29:29] *** jsubl2 has joined #opensolaris [22:33:38] *** hile_ has joined #opensolaris [22:43:01] *** loren has joined #opensolaris [22:43:55] *** jsubl2 has quit IRC [22:44:23] *** jsubl2 has joined #opensolaris [22:44:27] *** nachox has quit IRC [22:47:36] *** loren_ has joined #opensolaris [22:52:34] *** loren__ has joined #opensolaris [22:54:39] *** loren has quit IRC [22:58:12] *** Kmays has quit IRC [22:59:17] *** xinkeT has quit IRC [23:01:02] *** xinkeT has joined #opensolaris [23:01:24] *** loren_ has quit IRC [23:07:05] *** lplatypus has quit IRC [23:11:06] *** UnixTitan has left #opensolaris [23:14:02] *** toymachine has joined #opensolaris [23:30:33] <toymachine> Does OpenSolaris contain CDE? [23:31:25] <delewis> toymachine, no. [23:31:46] <toymachine> does Solaris even use CDE anymore? [23:34:36] <Auralis> CDe is in the solaris releases from sun [23:35:24] <delewis> toymachine, there are plans in motion to remove it, but it won't happen until sometime after the Solaris 11 release from what I've heard. [23:36:07] <toymachine> ahh [23:36:07] <darkcmd> they're getting rid of CDE all together? [23:36:16] <toymachine> im just a fan of Motif [23:36:25] <estibi> happy new year to everyone :) [23:36:29] <toymachine> for some odd reason dont ask why [23:36:42] <delewis> darkcmd, libraries still stay around [23:36:47] <delewis> but most of /usr/dt will die [23:36:54] <delewis> just as what happened to /usr/openwin [23:37:05] *** UnixTitan has joined #opensolaris [23:37:08] *** toymachine has quit IRC [23:37:15] <darkcmd> hmm that bums me out, I like CDE [23:37:53] <tomww> darkcmd: like the standard or the cde itself? :-) [23:38:20] <UnixTitan> where the heck is pkgadd located? [23:38:39] <_syphilis_> /usr/sbin [23:39:06] <darkcmd> CDE itself :D [23:39:33] <UnixTitan> dang [23:39:38] <UnixTitan> I must have somehow deleted it [23:39:43] <Auralis> each new incantation of a unix desktop environments seems to suck more then the last [23:39:49] <UnixTitan> oh wait nevermind [23:39:54] <UnixTitan> I changed my path heh [23:40:04] *** cneira has joined #opensolaris [23:40:06] <UnixTitan> Auralis: except for e :) [23:40:27] <Auralis> haven't used e17 yet [23:40:42] <Auralis> i run a modified amiwm :) [23:41:16] <UnixTitan> lol [23:41:20] <UnixTitan> I'm in the midst of installing e [23:41:31] <UnixTitan> had to go to root for a minute and I am rudely kicked. [23:43:00] *** freakazoid0223 has quit IRC [23:43:18] *** ibs has joined #opensolaris [23:43:19] * Auralis loves the window handling of the maiga, it was for me the best [23:46:10] *** freakazoid0223 has joined #opensolaris [23:46:39] <Auralis> and maybe one day i will get to add the extended wm hints to it too, but i'm so lazy and bad at coding :) [23:51:33] <UnixTitan> hehehe [23:51:35] <UnixTitan> install e [23:55:12] *** hile_ has quit IRC [23:57:59] <UnixTitan> ld.so.1: vim: fatal: libgmodule-1.2.so.0: open failed: No such file or directoryKilled [23:58:18] <UnixTitan> I didn't think libgmodule was a separte pack from gtk