[00:00:11] <dlg> anyway, if you have a relationship with dell, you should be able to get an eval unit for a few weeks
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[00:00:37] <dlg> the 2950 has the right number of drive trays for what you want
[00:01:10] <nettie> yup I could try that
[00:02:01] <gisburn> graaaaaaaa... http://cgi.ebay.com/SUN-E4500-Server-Fully-Loaded_W0QQitemZ220046063826QQihZ012QQcategoryZ11216QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
[00:02:08] <gisburn> want that box
[00:02:27] <delewis> mine is an 8-way 400MHz UltraSPARC-II /w 8GB of memory
[00:02:32] <dlg> nettie: or you could go ghetto and get an x2100 and an esata card
[00:02:40] <nettie> the SC1435 is opteron based but not enought trays eheh
[00:02:43] <delewis> so ~ 2/3s loaded :-)
[00:02:56] <nettie> x2100?
[00:03:09] <nettie> it has 4x sta trays?
[00:05:14] <dlg> no, hence the esata card
[00:05:30] <nettie> ahh
[00:05:31] <nettie> nope
[00:05:32] <nettie> suckly
[00:05:34] <nettie> eheh
[00:05:46] <nettie> dlg the 2950 is intriguin
[00:06:02] <nettie> 4 cores version cpus are already available
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[00:06:10] <nettie> 8 cores box..
[00:06:18] <nettie> intriguin
[00:06:18] <nettie> eheh
[00:06:29] <dlg> if you like sticky tape on your cpu cores, then sure
[00:06:40] <nettie> ehehe
[00:06:52] <nettie> I was just impressed they were so quick
[00:10:21] <gisburn> nettie: Who ?
[00:10:32] <twincest> gisburn: hello
[00:10:50] <twincest> did you get my mail? :)
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[00:11:46] <gisburn> twincest: which email ?
[00:12:43] <gisburn> my inbox has no email from "twincest"
[00:12:51] <gisburn> twincest: what is your real name ?
[00:12:56] <twincest> gisburn: regarding ksh93 and some CR i filed
[00:13:01] <twincest> gisburn: <river at attenuate dot org>
[00:13:06] <gisburn> Oh
[00:13:23] <gisburn> I read something while by brain was offline.
[00:13:50] <gisburn> I had a bad day yesterday, sortly before driving off into the far land called "insanity".
[00:14:02] * gisburn remebers getconf&co.
[00:14:09] * gisburn gets a bloodrush
[00:14:24] <gisburn> twincest: reply in 30mins
[00:14:29] * gisburn is making coffee
[00:15:00] * sahafeez needs to get off the computer and clean up the house and kitchen
[00:15:09] <Error_404> do it
[00:15:21] <sahafeez> good idea.
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[00:36:06] <axisys> how to run sendmail in daemon mode w/ listening only to 127.0.0.1 on solaris 10?
[00:36:36] <jamesd> same way as any other release of sendmail
[00:37:05] <axisys> solaris 8 i could just dont run w/ bd and could send email
[00:37:27] <axisys> but sol 9+ looks u must run in daemon mode to be able to send email
[00:37:44] <nachox> i think sendmail is actually managed through smf it has a property to set that but i dont remember which
[00:38:23] <axisys> nachox: i am running w/ smf.. but MODE="-bd" part cant be removed if u want sendmail to work
[00:38:53] <axisys> what i want is then run w/ -bd but only listen locally
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[00:39:25] <axisys> jamesd: hmm other release as far as solaris 8 behaves differently
[00:40:40] <jamesd> you can disable sendmail in smf, and  then run it how ever it would run normally.
[00:41:46] <gisburn> axisys: use ipfilter
[00:42:05] <gisburn> axisys: IMO a better idea than messing with sendmail's configuration file.
[00:43:45] <nachox> axisys: the property is config/local_only
[00:44:14] <axisys> found it
[00:44:19] <axisys> here is the fix
[00:44:21] <axisys> http://sunsolve.sun.com/search/document.do?assetkey=1-25-74310-1
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[00:53:31] * nachox wonders when solaris 10 11/06 will be released
[00:54:43] <Auralis> still hs 17 days headroom :)
[00:54:46] <Auralis> don't be hasty
[00:55:11] <axisys> cool i am running w/ -bd but only listening to 127.0.0.1
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[01:24:09] * dlg yawn
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[01:32:35] <Gman> stevel, there?
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[01:43:25] <nachox> not being hasty, i just want to see if it is worth waiting for u3 to be released or just go with u2 in a new laptop, just planning
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[01:46:23] <Gman> nachox, pfft, live in your pants, and run nevada :)
[01:47:10] <nachox> nah, i could use some stability, that's what made me left linux
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[01:49:11] <jmcp> nachox: I've had a heckuvalot more stability with SX than I ever did with linux
[01:49:38] <nachox> my biggest problem with SX is that there are no patches for it
[01:49:47] <delewis> nachox: the development policy for any point of Solaris development (whether it be SX or not) is "FCS quality all the time"
[01:50:01] <delewis> nachox: there is no point in providing patches for SX
[01:50:08] <delewis> you upgrade to the next release to receive fixes
[01:50:12] <Gman> s/policy/pipe dream/
[01:50:17] <Gman> (imho)
[01:50:28] <gisburn> Gman: yeah
[01:50:35] <gisburn> Gman: sometimes it sucks
[01:50:42] <Gman> which is actually ok
[01:50:47] <nachox> delewis: downloading every new nevada mean 24 hours of downloading
[01:50:49] <gisburn> Gman: unfortunately I agree with the policy
[01:50:58] <gisburn> Gman: but then it hurts myself
[01:51:01] <gisburn> Gman: badly
[01:51:02] <Gman> gisburn, for things like kernel, sure
[01:51:07] <Gman> you need a pretty rock solid operating system
[01:51:10] <Gman> for userland, less so
[01:51:11] <delewis> nachox: then you should consider running Solaris 10 if patches are important to you
[01:51:13] <edp> nachox, it only takes a couple hours
[01:51:27] <twincest> delewis: he just said he wants to run S10
[01:51:52] <nachox> delewis: hence my question, i wanted to know when u3 will be released
[01:52:09] <delewis> probably EOM, I would guess
[01:53:33] <nachox> i think i will have problems with wireless and such with solaris 10 and not SX but it's ok
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[02:13:17] <Gman> oh god.
[02:13:25] <richlowe> evenin' all.
[02:13:28] * Gman notices something about the opensolaris mailman settings that terrifies him
[02:13:47] <nachox> allow_spam=true ? ;)
[02:13:49] <Gman> hey richlowe
[02:13:52] <Gman> nachox, pretty much
[02:13:53] <Gman> seriously.
[02:14:06] <richlowe> Gman: plocher's workaround?
[02:14:25] <Gman> don't think so
[02:14:38] <richlowe> oh, there's two such things then.
[02:15:32] <nachox> Gman: maybe spam is handled a different way in a relay with a mail filter?
[02:15:45] <Gman> that's probably the jive stuff
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[02:19:43] <gisburn> Yeah, Jive's superiour spam filering
[02:20:58] <gisburn> maybe the reason why I have 90 emails in the moderation queue... things like "The late son of the murdered Minister Umbacha from Nigeria who wants to sell his Rolex Watches to buy Viagra"
[02:21:58] <gisburn> It's shocking that spam is actually a working business model.
[02:22:09] <gisburn> 99% of the emails fail simple logic tests
[02:22:16] <nachox> the cost of sending spam is near 0
[02:22:24] <gisburn> yeah
[02:22:57] <nachox> so, if you have at least one customer buying you viagra youre good to go
[02:22:58] <gisburn> and it seems one person who buys stuff from these guys generates one million more spams to catch the next customer
[02:23:51] <gisburn> My middle niece one asked why we don't generate our own, useless spam to make the buisiness model worthless.
[02:24:17] <gisburn> (sort of a DOS attack against SPAM)
[02:24:46] <nachox> you mean like spamming the spammers?
[02:24:53] <gisburn> no.
[02:25:37] <gisburn> nachox: generate more spam with useless content to send customers to random places. That way they would start ignoring spam since 99% of the spam would point to nowhere.
[02:25:45] <gisburn> (note: child's logic)
[02:26:09] <nachox> dont they already ignore 99% of the spam? :)
[02:26:36] <nachox> i know i instantly delete everything our mail filter labels as spam
[02:26:43] <gisburn> nachox: well, if we can get 99.99999999999% of the spam ignored it would be working.
[02:27:24] <nachox> at the cost of overloading the already overloaded MTAs of the world? sounds fair to me
[02:27:28] <gisburn> unfortunately we would need SF25k's at home to deal with the spam traffic
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[02:30:00] <axisys> do u need to download all the CD images to install sxcr? meaning all cd image 1 to 6?
[02:30:51] <nachox> ATM i believe so, there are some bugs filled to fix that
[02:32:53] <axisys> can i download using wget or curl? it fails for me.. only firefox download works
[02:33:35] <richlowe> wget $URL -O $(basename $URL)
[02:34:03] <nachox> yes, i use wget, remember to use -O
[02:34:23] <nachox> or just download the sun download manager and use that
[02:36:10] <axisys> i usuall use axel to download big files.. using 10 concurrent connection.. it works just fine other places.. here i get pthread error
[02:36:17] <axisys> anyone used axel?
[02:36:34] <nachox> never even heard about it
[02:36:37] <axisys> it is perfect solution for smaller bandwidth like home connection
[02:37:19] <axisys> so a 100MB file will take as much time as a 10MB file download if u run axel -n 10 $url
[02:38:06] <axisys> http://freshmeat.net/projects/axel/
[02:38:25] <axisys> u download and compile .. very small file .. super useful
[02:38:30] <edp> sun seems to limit their downloads to 2 connections per IP though
[02:38:32] <nachox> that i doubt, i've had bad experiences with download managers that use concurrent connections ( specially DAP in windows)
[02:38:59] <axisys> edp: may be that is why axel failing
[02:39:09] <axisys> i use 10 by default.. let me try 2
[02:39:36] <richlowe> edp: 4, I think.
[02:39:37] <edp> i usually just download 2 of the files at a time
[02:40:20] <edp> i'll try more than two next build
[02:41:00] <axisys> edp: it seems working w/ axel now .. i am trying like this axel -n 2 "http://192.18.108.238/ECom/E.." -o file.zip
[02:41:29] <axisys> so i am getting it twice as fast now.. still good
[02:43:05] <axisys> richlowe: i stopped and trying w/ 4 now :P .. greedy me
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[02:43:22] <boyd> avail
[02:43:27] <boyd> oops
[02:43:53] <boyd> Hey, does anyone know why the term for NFS was changed from "export" to "share"? Windows brain compatibility?
[02:45:21] <richlowe> if you're meaning what I think you are, that change seems rather old to tie with that reasoning.
[02:45:45] <boyd> Go on...
[02:46:06] <richlowe> well, I was assuming I mas is-guessing
[02:46:08] <richlowe> uh.
[02:46:15] <richlowe> Well,  I was assuming I was miss-guessing what you meant.
[02:46:58] <PerterB> I thought it was an SVR4 thing, along the same lines as taking on the ISO networking protocols
[02:47:01] <richlowe> but the share(1M) stuff came with SysV switch...
[02:47:10] <boyd> I mean that they used to call it "exporting a filesystem" using /etc/exports and hence /export but (in 5.0 I think) it became "sharing" using /usr/sbin/share
[02:47:26] <boyd> Ok, so was it always "share" in SV?
[02:47:54] <PerterB> don't think so, in SVR3 NFS was an addon and still used BSD terminology
[02:48:15] <richlowe> I'm not sure if it came from SysV (I don't know how RFS did things), but at the time naming things as windows named them wouldn't make so much sense (I don't think windows was doing anything significantly networky at that point)
[02:48:17] <boyd> Just one of those things I've occasionally wondered... since it leaves us with exports in e.g. linux
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[02:48:48] <boyd> richlowe: You're probably right...
[02:49:01] <boyd> What timeframe is this.... ~1990 ?
[02:49:07] <gisburn> boyd: Linux still has no /etc/vfstab
[02:49:08] <PerterB> yow, I'd completely forgotteb RFS :)
[02:49:30] <boyd> gisburn: Most Unix dont
[02:49:31] <gisburn> and no /etc/inet/
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[02:50:31] <boyd> Hmm... windows for workgroups was 1993
[02:50:52] <boyd> But I think that lan manager used "share" before that
[02:51:19] <PerterB> and Netware before that
[02:52:38] <boyd> PerterB: Used "share" too? I can't remember
[02:53:03] <PerterB> actually, I'm a bit hazey on it :)
[02:53:16] <boyd> I was using Pathworks at about that time
[02:53:17] * jmcp dashes off to get his paper ticket
[02:53:22] <boyd> (based on Lanman
[02:53:23] <nachox> hehe, reading through the bug database can be fun, i didnt know bugs like 6477813 were to be filled in an opensolaris bug database
[02:53:27] <boyd> )
[02:53:50] <boyd> Hehe..
[02:53:59] <boyd> "In progress" :)
[02:54:16] <richlowe> which carries it's b.o.o meaning of "Anything except Closed"
[02:55:03] <gisburn> heh
[02:55:07] <boyd> Imagine getting the Linux userspace organised enough to use auths in a consistent way
[02:55:10] <gisburn> The idea sounds cool.
[02:55:26] <boyd> ... or at all
[02:55:38] <nachox> there is another like that for aix and hpux
[02:55:43] <gisburn> org.redhat.misc.tmp.flags.security_master.enable_all=true
[02:55:54] <richlowe> Hm.
[02:56:05] <richlowe> movement: you around?
[02:56:31] <nachox> gisburn:  have to love sysctl.conf :)
[02:57:02] <boyd> How on earth do readhat get to use .org ?
[02:57:05] <richlowe> ... you can't complain about sysctl while having /etc/system
[02:57:08] * gisburn hungs sysctl.conf
[02:57:13] <gisburn> s/hungs/hugs/
[02:58:17] <nachox> richlowe: i still can complain about the lack of documentation regarding to all the sysctl.conf options :)
[02:58:28] * boyd amuses himself while eating by clicking the "Random Article" link on Wikipedia
[02:59:03] <boyd> nachox: What are you complaining about, you simply have to read the source :)
[02:59:20] <axisys> does solaris have pkgs available like linux where every app has pkg.. i dont mind compiling
[02:59:36] <boyd> Huh?
[02:59:44] <delewis> parse error
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[02:59:54] <gisburn> boyd: the wikipedia people now have a debate whether this link should be removed since it may link to "adult" content (e.g. things like the article about pregnancy)
[02:59:55] <axisys> i ask this question is because i like to try solaris on my laptop
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[03:00:29] <boyd> gisburn: I have no tolerance for intolerance
[03:00:34] <axisys> currently i am running ubuntu
[03:00:54] <boyd> axisys: You could try nexenta if you want to feel most at home
[03:01:09] <axisys> boyd: is that gnu solaris?
[03:01:12] <boyd> Yep
[03:01:32] <axisys> it failed to install on my laptop .. hp nc6220
[03:01:33] <gisburn> boyd: well, I would understand such a debate from the conservative US point of view... but using the article about pregnacy is... uhm... weired. even for the south states in the US.
[03:02:10] <gisburn> boyd: it sounds like those children should not know about that or something like that.
[03:02:27] <axisys> after trying alpha 6 of nexenta.. not only it fail.. but it automatically was shutting down the laptop as well
[03:02:32] * boyd has to go read it now.... Maybe they're moving on the denying the existence of offspring... thus proving evolution ridiculous :)
[03:02:37] <axisys> i had to go back to ubuntu
[03:03:05] <boyd> gisburn: I'd have thought the real answer was umm... "don't click on the link"
[03:03:26] <axisys> i rather try sxcr .. but available pkgs is what holding me back from trying yet
[03:03:33] <richlowe> blastwave?
[03:04:04] <gisburn> boyd: sorry... it's silly. Pregnancy should be treated normally.
[03:04:12] <axisys> richlowe: yes.. however it is not seem to popular in this chnl.. may be i am interpretting the responses differently ;-)
[03:04:27] <boyd> gisburn: You'd think that the point of an encyclopedia would not include preventing people from accidentally finding out about the world
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[03:04:33] <Gman> the mock screenshots of caiman are interesting
[03:04:36] <Gman> not sure i completely like them
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[03:04:56] <boyd> Gman: I don't think I wan't to wait for a live desktop to start an installer
[03:05:03] <Gman> yeah, seriously
[03:05:16] <axisys> would be perfect to have my boss get me a sparc laptop :-)
[03:05:55] <boyd> axisys: If you want to see if you like the blastwave packages then try them out. There is also www.sunfreeware.com
[03:06:02] <gisburn> gdamore: ping!
[03:06:20] <gisburn> gdamore: are you guys planning a laptop with Niagara2 inside ?
[03:06:35] <boyd> hehe that would be cool
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[03:06:42] <axisys> that would be waay cool
[03:06:42] <gisburn> boyd: yeah
[03:06:47] <boyd> (for under $500 please)
[03:06:51] <gisburn> heh
[03:06:52] <axisys> boyd: hehe
[03:06:55] * delewis chokes
[03:06:58] <delewis> yeah, right :-)
[03:07:02] <gisburn> boyd: under 2000euro would be Ok, too.
[03:07:07] <delewis> that would get you a power adapter
[03:07:20] <gisburn> boyd: remeber you need 8 RDIMMs for it.
[03:07:25] <boyd> A country kit :)
[03:07:42] <axisys> boyd: pkg management is really cool w/ ubuntu.. something close w/ sxcr would be nice
[03:07:49] <gisburn> boyd: which means the price is always > 800 euro
[03:08:10] <boyd> axisys: blastwave is close for some values of close
[03:08:16] <axisys> i do like compiling.. i even tried gentoo  for that reason.. but it was cooking my laptop
[03:08:20] <boyd> gisburn: Untill next year :)
[03:08:23] <delewis> axisys: Sun has little incentive to support something like that for Solaris, I would think.
[03:08:40] <boyd> axisys: There is also pmpkg which is closer to ports collections
[03:08:42] <axisys> delewis: well how about sxcr?
[03:08:46] <delewis> axisys: ?
[03:08:47] * boyd pings oxygene
[03:08:54] <delewis> axisys: what is the difference?
[03:09:04] <delewis> (and don't try educating me)
[03:09:09] <delewis> I'm educating *you*
[03:09:12] <axisys> delewis: i see opensolaris is more flexible in that sense
[03:09:23] <delewis> axisys: OpenSolaris != SXCR
[03:09:31] <delewis> SXCR is Sun's OpenSolaris-based distribution
[03:10:17] <axisys> does opensolaris has any pkg managment project ?
[03:10:31] <delewis> axisys: sfwnv and companion
[03:10:46] <boyd> ... which suck
[03:10:47] <delewis> but those aren't really package-management projects, but rather projects that create freeware packages.
[03:10:50] <axisys> boyd: pmpkg ..hmm.. was not aware of that
[03:11:18] <richlowe> Gman: I'm still hung up on the in-place upgrade bits of the document.
[03:11:38] <boyd> richlowe: Why's that?
[03:11:49] <Gman> richlowe, yeah, dropping that support seems a little silly
[03:11:50] <nachox> axisys: yes, check  http://www.opensolaris.org/os/project/svr4_packaging/
[03:12:07] <boyd> I think it's ok at this stage to abandon that... esp in combination with zfs root
[03:12:21] <axisys> nachox: thnx
[03:12:29] <boyd> on the other hand, I'm not sure how one is supposed to transition
[03:12:39] <jbk> lu?
[03:13:35] <nachox> live update?
[03:13:43] <richlowe> Gman: I think that bit of it is a wording error.
[03:13:52] <boyd> Yeah, but if you don't already have space for a LU env you are screwed
[03:14:01] <richlowe> Gman: I believe 'in-place' is specifically referring to while the system is running, not "not-LU"
[03:14:10] <delewis> boyd: not necessarily
[03:14:14] <delewis> just grab another disk ;-)
[03:14:33] <boyd> richlowe: Oh, I interpreted it as "no non-lu style upgrades"
[03:14:54] <richlowe> Maybe I'm wrong then.
[03:14:56] <boyd> IOW, boot from media, upgrade in place
[03:15:04] <axisys> will spc-v0.6.ksh run on sol 10 u2 or latest sxcr?
[03:15:04] <boyd> (conventional upgrade)
[03:15:07] <richlowe> Yeah, I thought that was still good, but no upgrade-while-running.
[03:15:24] <richlowe> which I can almost understand, since you'd have to force a reboot when it got done, in a lot of situations.
[03:15:25] <Gman> richlowe, shrug - not my ballpark ;)
[03:15:37] <richlowe> but I see no reason not to let it happen, then force an upgrade... it's more likable than alternatives, anyway.
[03:15:42] <richlowe> uh.
[03:15:45] <richlowe> force a reboot, not an upgrade ;)
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[03:16:54] <boyd> esp since they say "The primary purpose of "in place" upgrades was to save space." Which means they're talking about something that we have now/did have
[03:17:30] <lloy0076> Auralis: Well, after recompiling and linking "libneon" and "zlib", my subversion suddenly starting working without having to fiddle with my LD_LIBRARY_PATH settings.
[03:18:14] * lloy0076 wonders whether ON nightly: 20061106 will install properly without having ON nightly: 20061103 installed...
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[03:52:07] <rodrickbrown> http://www.rodrickbrown.com/images/e10k.jpg
[03:52:10] <rodrickbrown> The good ole days
[03:52:39] <jbk> heh
[03:52:49] <jbk> we were supposed to get a 10k way back
[03:52:56] <jbk> but then the intended app
[03:53:23] <jbk> they discovered that upon login, it executed the same stored procedure on the database 3000x per login
[03:53:33] <jbk> once they fixed that, no longer needed it
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[03:53:51] <rodrickbrown> haha
[03:53:55] <rodrickbrown> man that's like a huge ass mistake
[03:54:07] <jbk> oh, and the vendor claimed it wasn't a bug :)
[03:55:04] <gisburn> can I get that E10k ?
[03:55:09] <gisburn> I pay for the shipping!
[03:55:10] <jbk> we were kinda disappointed though.. we wanted some big toys :)
[03:55:34] <gisburn> jbk: lemme guesss.. you ended with  a Ultra5, right ?
[03:55:51] <jbk> actually the app is still a piece of shit
[03:56:09] <jbk> but now just runs on a 6900
[03:56:24] <jbk> mostly because (imo) it creates around 12,000 sqlnet connections
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[03:56:52] <jbk> which sucks up a lot of memory that could be used for db cache instead
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[03:57:39] <jbk> but now we've got a few 25ks for different projects
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[03:59:18] <rodrickbrown> nice
[03:59:26] <rodrickbrown> the last company I Worked for had 1 25k
[03:59:51] <rodrickbrown> the biggest servers I see these days are 6[89]00's if that
[04:00:05] <rodrickbrown> everyone scaling out than up these dyas
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[04:03:34] <jbk> well for the apps that these are for, the vendor says they don't scale horizontially, so.... :)
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[04:13:27] <Gman> OpenSolaris Weekly News #37 - http://mail.opensolaris.org/pipermail/opensolaris-discuss/2006-November/021680.html
[04:13:35] <Gman> [jim's going to kill me for the quote]
[04:13:36] <boyd> 25ks are walking out the door here it seems
[04:14:08] <boyd> Gman: Hehe
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[04:16:21] * boyd wishes there was a general Message-ID to URL service for opensolaris... hmm maybe google would do
[04:16:40] <Gman> you could write a bot that might be able to do it?
[04:17:03] <gisburn> boyd: I vote to kill Jive.
[04:17:11] <gisburn> boyd: that would be less work.
[04:17:16] <boyd> ... with komodo dragons no doubt :)
[04:17:26] <gisburn> bah
[04:17:28] <gisburn> really
[04:17:31] <gisburn> jive sucks
[04:17:41] <boyd> No I agree it sucks
[04:18:31] <Gman> not as much as my internet connection right now.
[04:22:47] <richlowe> Gman: hey, the quote is as accurate as it could be.
[04:23:43] <Gman> :)
[04:25:52] <boyd> Hmm... the Wikipedia "Random article" link just pointed me at a page that says "Wikipedia does not currently have an encyclopedia article for Togetherness." That's pretty random :)
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[05:11:30] <dclarke> hello
[05:11:44] <jbk> evening
[05:12:21] <dclarke> I'm here building cdrecrod
[05:12:25] <dclarke> cdrecord
[05:12:32] <dclarke> Jorg kicked out an update
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[05:30:08] <Error_404> hey dclarke
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[05:34:39] <dclarke> hello
[05:34:52] <dclarke> Error_404: I'm a little stuck to this ODW today
[05:35:03] <dclarke> Error_404: the one I'm shipping you
[05:35:13] <dclarke> Error_404: I figure I better get my stuff off it
[05:35:20] <dclarke> and install fresh Fedora Core 6
[05:36:33] <Error_404> "stuck to it"?
[05:36:45] <dclarke> planted in front of it
[05:36:50] <Error_404> it eats IDE drives, yes?
[05:36:56] <dclarke> huh ?  no
[05:37:01] <dclarke> not that I noticed
[05:37:04] <dclarke> I have two in this one
[05:37:06] <Error_404> oh... wtf?
[05:37:07] <dclarke> they work fine
[05:37:19] <Error_404> oh, i meant "eats" as in "takes"
[05:37:20] <dclarke> two IDE disks
[05:37:31] <Error_404> just yank them, send me the machine without the drives
[05:37:36] <dclarke> oh .. to me "eats" means chews up and spits out
[05:37:51] <Error_404> I have an extra 120gig that ZFS destroyed that i can use
[05:37:52] <dclarke> oh .. thats cruel and unusual punishment
[05:38:13] <Error_404> (i gave ZFS the disk, it wrote an EFI label to it, now my bios can't use it)
[05:38:15] <dclarke> also .. the ZFS disk will have a EFI label .. you may want to fix that first
[05:38:24] <dclarke> right ..
[05:38:33] <dclarke> run format -e
[05:38:46] <dclarke> select the disk
[05:38:51] <dclarke> select label
[05:38:57] <dclarke> select a backup label
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[05:40:17] <dclarke> I may be able to just run an upgrade here .. and its a clean machine
[05:40:28] <dclarke> more or less
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[05:44:50] <Error_404> I don't have a machine to fix that, i was hoping a livecd & the ODW woould work
[05:45:05] <dclarke> you have no Solaris box ?
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[05:45:45] <Error_404> yeah, but if i plug the drive in it won't POST
[05:46:05] <dclarke> what sort of disk ?  IDE right ?
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[05:46:21] <dclarke> you can not set it to be slave disk on the bus and attach it ?
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[05:51:35] <Error_404> dclarke, i tried that
[05:51:44] <dclarke> okay .. sorry
[05:51:46] <Error_404> if it's attached to the machine at all, it won't boot
[05:51:55] <dclarke> didn't mean to be poking you with a stick
[05:52:02] <dclarke> toss it over your shoulder
[05:52:13] <dclarke> I'll ship the box with the disks in it
[05:52:21] <dclarke> I don't have any need for IDE at all
[05:52:26] <Error_404> i can't say i'm suprised though, the motherboard + processor came to about $100
[05:52:37] <dclarke> ha ha
[05:52:40] <dclarke> thats cheap
[05:52:49] <dclarke> a decent bottle of scotch will cost more
[05:52:50] <Error_404> SiS motherboard made by winfast + a sempron64
[05:52:58] <Error_404> heh
[05:53:38] <dclarke> just a sec .. cdrtools just finished building here
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[06:09:36] <Error_404> the odw still uses open firmware, yes?
[06:09:56] <jbk> odw?
[06:10:03] <jmcp> w000t! http://news.com.com/Sun+picks+GPL+license+for+Java+code/2100-7344_3-6134584.html?tag=nefd.top
[06:10:20] <jmcp> jbk: open desktop workstation iirc
[06:12:12] <dclarke> java is GPL'd ?
[06:12:23] <dclarke> good to see consistency in the ranks there
[06:12:33] <dclarke> now we can dump the CDDL ?
[06:12:58] <dclarke> and why not .. its not like the Sun software technology will all be under one license now anyways
[06:13:01] <djgregor> I can see the benefits of the viral nature of the GPL for Java
[06:13:13] <dclarke> of course .. its about marketing
[06:13:18] <dclarke> not technology
[06:15:46] <dclarke> Error_404: the ODW .. yes .. still has OpenBoot firmware
[06:18:30] <g4lt-mordant> dclarke, j2me and j2se are GPL, j2ee is CDDL
[06:21:05] <richlowe> howdy jmcp
[06:21:20] <jmcp> hi richlowe
[06:21:49] <Triskelios> interesting @ j2me. do any phone vendors base their implementations on j2me?
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[06:27:08] <gisburn> g4lt-mordant: that will be fun with all the linux distributions who can't ship j2ee then.
[06:27:30] <gisburn> g4lt-mordant: That will Fedoras excuse to ship their stuff instead.
[06:28:50] <g4lt-mordant> which means that linux will further its marginalization into a non-eneterprise OS
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[06:29:10] <gisburn> erm
[06:29:20] <gisburn> g4lt-mordant: I wouldn't be sure with that.
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[06:30:21] <g4lt-mordant> gisburn, when's the last time you saw Debian (the most likely to make an issue about j2ee) in the enterprise?
[06:30:22] * boyd marvels at the fact that google reader doesn't seem to allow searchng of feeds
[06:31:03] <boyd> Are you guys sure it's not dual-licensed? I'd be surprised if it isn't
[06:31:37] <gisburn> boyd: dual-licensed to what ? GPL+CDDL ?
[06:31:47] <Error_404> that'd be kinna silly, imo
[06:31:49] <gisburn> hey, that may be fun! =:-)
[06:31:58] <gisburn> Error_404: why ?
[06:32:01] <jmcp> gisburn: http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/When/200x/2006/11/12/OSS-Java
[06:32:11] <boyd> I don't know but they are not stupid... they are goinna have to allow commercial users
[06:32:14] <gisburn> Error_404: finally richard stallman would die from a heart attack!
[06:32:49] <gisburn> or we would place some pots with flowers at his office entrance while he is inside...
[06:33:07] <gisburn> ... hopefully he's scared and doesn't come out anymore...
[06:33:25] <rydis> I imagine it would be a bigger shock to rms if the Symbolics IP issue is resolved with that stuff getting free...
[06:33:32] <jmcp> gisburn: I think you should pay attention to the webcast that's on at 0930 US/Pacific
[06:34:26] <Tpenta> stallman is in the quote sheet
[06:35:06] <boyd> Stinking incovenient timezones... anyway would it kill them to give a time in UTC
[06:35:27] <gisburn> jmcp: ?!
[06:35:28] <jmcp> boyd: 0930 US/Pacific is 12 hours from now
[06:35:37] <gisburn> 11:55h
[06:35:52] <boyd> I know... I know... but it's common courtesy
[06:36:18] <boyd> I don't see it on /. yet
[06:36:27] <jmcp> boyd: that's because everything Sun does is evil (tm)
[06:36:32] <boyd> :)
[06:36:44] <boyd> Making me consider getting up at 04:30 is evil :)
[06:36:50] <jbk> heh
[06:36:54] * gisburn wonders how the US/Pacific timezone would be named if japan had won WW2...
[06:37:04] <jbk> any bets eric raymond will try to take credit? :)
[06:37:09] <boyd> haha!
[06:37:12] <gisburn> heh
[06:37:18] <jmcp> jbk: nah, no bet. it's a certainty
[06:37:37] <boyd> Well, I think that it's probably fair to say that quite indirectly he did play a role
[06:37:38] <gisburn> who actually pays stallman currently ?
[06:37:45] <boyd> FSF?
[06:38:31] <gisburn> mhhh... I hoped they invest their income made with T-shirts into more important stuff...
[06:38:49] <boyd> This will cause some people angst: "Remember: However many forks there are, it ain?t Java unless it?s called ?Java? or has the coffee-cup on it. If it has the name and cup, it is Java and it?s compatible. And Sun will absolutely enforce that in court if we have to. We have in the past and we will again"
[06:39:08] <boyd> WTF is TCK?
[06:39:23] <boyd> Oh, conformance tests I think
[06:39:24] <gisburn> TentaCle Krap ?
[06:39:34] <Tpenta> http://blogs.sun.com/tpenta/entry/today%27s_java_announcement
[06:39:43] <gisburn> Terror Conformace Kaos ?
[06:40:04] <gisburn> Terrorism Control Key
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[06:40:12] <jmcp> gisburn: stop being an idiot
[06:40:17] <jmcp> tck == technical compatibility kit
[06:40:29] <boyd> jmcp: beat me to it :)
[06:40:32] <jbk> hmm... wonder if it'll make it into the next everybody loves eric raymond
[06:40:46] <boyd> There hasn't been one of them for a while it seems
[06:40:56] <jbk> mid october
[06:41:05] * gisburn now sits in an edge, sulks and stares at jmcp
[06:41:28] * boyd curses Tpenta's access to URLs early :)
[06:41:45] <Tpenta> unfortunately none of the urls into the info site work yet :(
[06:42:04] <Tpenta> can you tell that I like the RMS and Eben Moglin quotes?
[06:42:19] <boyd> So do we thing that stallman will have a coronary because of the opensourceing of java or because it's not gplv3?
[06:42:30] <Tpenta> read the quote
[06:43:01] <gisburn> boyd: is GPLv3 out ? I thought it's still in the [draft] stage...
[06:43:06] <boyd> nice quote... well thought out by him I think
[06:43:09] <Tpenta> "I think Sun has well, with this contribution have contributed more than any other company to the free software community in the form of software. It shows leadership. It's an example I hope others will follow." RMS
[06:43:16] <Tpenta> i believe we have it on video
[06:43:49] * boyd pops over to #debian to see what's happnin'
[06:44:05] * gisburn watches boyd being kicked&banned
[06:44:32] <boyd> I'm just lurking ATM
[06:45:23] <Tpenta> oh, do tell boyd
[06:45:31] <boyd> Hmm... no mention at all so far
[06:45:42] * boyd think he'll poke the bear
[06:45:50] * jmcp watches
[06:46:57] <boyd> Fire in the hole!
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[06:47:30] * gisburn prepages the sniper rifle
[06:47:40] <Tpenta> boyd, couldnt you have pointed to one of the real press stories?
[06:48:01] <gisburn> boyd: p6 or p8 ? where they are coming ? any decoys ?
[06:48:23] <boyd> Tpenta: thought you might like the hits :)
[06:48:56] * gisburn wishes there would be a playable version of counterstrike for linux
[06:50:28] <boyd> It's not as hot as I thought it may be... I think the real zealots are at irc.debian.org
[06:50:31] <richlowe> Tpenta: do you happen to be knowledge regarding the sparc resume() and related?
[06:50:32] <jbk> heh
[06:50:34] <richlowe> uh.
[06:50:36] <richlowe> knowledgable.
[06:50:43] <Tpenta> not really
[06:50:52] <richlowe> Bugger.
[06:52:39] <boyd> Hehe... one of the early comments about the java anouncement in #debian "i'm gonna see if I can haxx0r the webcast to work in mplayer"
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[06:54:22] <g4lt-mordant> gisburn, s/linux/solaris\/SPARC/
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[06:55:18] <gisburn> g4lt-mordant: counterstrike ?
[06:55:23] <g4lt-mordant> why not?
[06:55:28] <gisburn> well...
[06:55:38] <gisburn> g4lt-mordant: I got Quake3 running on a V880z
[06:55:45] <gisburn> quite impressive
[06:56:04] <jbk> is the code that multi-threaded?
[06:56:10] <Tpenta> it'll work in bloody helix
[06:56:29] <gisburn> jbk: quake3 ? not really
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[06:56:50] <jmcp> Tpenta: I prefer my helix to be doubled rather than bloody
[06:57:07] <Tpenta> depends on how it is extracted, doesnt it?
[06:57:23] <gisburn> jbk: the code has other problems. it was written by people who think in x86 assembler and treat C as another expression of that.
[06:57:37] <jmcp> Tpenta: muahahahahahaha :)
[06:57:41] * jmcp goes grocery shopping
[06:57:45] <gisburn> and forget 64bit cleanless.
[06:58:00] <gisburn> er
[06:58:05] <gisburn> s/cleanless/cleanness/
[06:59:53] * boyd finally got to the end of Tpenta's post. Interesting times indeed.
[07:00:11] <Tpenta> david berlind makes some interesting connections in regar to this, does he not
[07:00:12] <Tpenta> ?
[07:00:25] <boyd> Yes, he does...
[07:01:05] <boyd> There will be a lot of people (like Phipps) who will be glad to be able to stop fielding that question all the time.
[07:01:18] <boyd> "When are you going to...."
[07:01:50] <gisburn> can anyone connect to www.idsoftware.com ?
[07:02:02] <boyd> Tpenta: jewels has one "l"
[07:03:50] <Tpenta> ok, we had a suburb near wheer I grew up called Jewells Crossing
[07:03:53] <Tpenta> fixed
[07:05:05] <sahafeez> gisburn no, seems down
[07:06:09] <gisburn> fragged!
[07:06:46] * boyd wonders how long gisburn had that line waiting
[07:06:49] <boyd> :)
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[07:12:28] <gisburn> boyd: 5mins
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[07:19:59] <axisys> is there way to find out which process is writing to a file? i know fuser can find active processes in a dir
[07:21:00] <gisburn> axisys: lsof ?
[07:21:38] <axisys> gisburn: forgot about lsof.. thnx
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[07:28:17] <boyd> What's wrong with fuser?
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[07:31:51] <axisys> boyd: fuser gives me tons of process and then i need link a process to a file
[07:33:02] <boyd> Huh? fuser /some/file
[07:33:28] <boyd> Or do you mean pfiles <pid>
[07:33:29] <boyd> ?
[07:35:54] <axisys> boyd: oops by bad.. i never knew that .. *sigh*
[07:36:03] <axisys> thnx
[07:36:29] <boyd> np :)
[07:44:00] * dlg sigh
[07:44:07] <dlg> why does code never work right first go?
[07:44:40] <boyd> Your code is too complicated. Hello world does :)
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[07:45:43] <dlg> i can screw printfs up
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[08:01:36] <Doc> boyd:  java isnt java unless we say it is.  Solaris isnt solaris unless we say it is. linux is linux no matter how much someone has fucked with it and made it incompatible with all of the other linuxes out there
[08:01:39] <Doc> i know which i prefer
[08:02:07] <boyd> I didn't say I disagreed, Doc
[08:02:24] <boyd> I just meant that others will
[08:02:52] <Doc> so given that we havent actually announced it yet, wtf is everyone bloging about it?
[08:03:01] <Doc> talk about watering down the actual announcement
[08:03:06] * boyd shrugs.
[08:03:15] <boyd> Like bulls at a gate :)
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[08:06:11] <Error_404> because everyone knows it's gonna happen?
[08:06:44] <Error_404> it's not like Apple where everything's a big secret & you get people speculating about the iHelicoptor every single time they hold an event
[08:07:05] <boyd> What do you know about the iHelecopter?
[08:07:11] <Tpenta> hey doc, you see that your pic showed john c dvorak's blog
[08:07:28] <Error_404> boyd, if i knew anything, apple'd shoot me
[08:07:29] <boyd> Cool
[08:07:35] <boyd> Error_404: Hehe
[08:08:28] <elektronkind> linux will unite the fragmented unix market!
[08:08:37] * elektronkind remembers hearing that one back in 1995
[08:09:07] <Error_404> pfft...
[08:09:21] <elektronkind> and today we have redhat versions that aren't even compatible from one rev to the next
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[08:10:21] <Error_404> although, i guess in a sense they did... in as far as the only UNIX(tm) being pushed pretty heavily to even the little customers anymore is Solaris...
[08:10:48] <Error_404> HP was dumb enough to fall for it, and after buying compaq
[08:11:54] <elektronkind> the person in charge of HPUX product marketing must be one sad person
[08:13:00] <Error_404> heh
[08:13:17] <elektronkind> I mean, of all the commercial UNIXes that are still out there and have new, viable hardware to run on, I would have to guess that one is in the worst shape, direction-wise.
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[08:13:28] <ofu> good morning
[08:13:53] <Error_404> what up
[08:14:05] <elektronkind> all they have to hang their hat on is Itanium, and IBM will just keep pumping out new POWER chips for the AIX market.
[08:14:34] <elektronkind> and we all know what everyone thinks of Itanium. *sticks finger down throat*
[08:15:34] <Error_404> I'd take an itanic off someones hands if offered
[08:15:37] <Error_404> *shrug*
[08:15:45] <Error_404> I'd have a right mind to port solaris to it too
[08:16:08] <ofu> 5-10 years ago, itanium looked promising
[08:16:43] <dlg> Error_404: doowit
[08:16:46] <dlg> i have an altix
[08:16:49] <dlg> i love the hardware
[08:16:57] <dlg> until it gets to loading the linux kernel
[08:16:59] <dlg> then i feel sad
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[08:17:20] <Error_404> I would, but the only arch. i currently have in the house are SPARC & amd64
[08:17:23] <sickness> dlg: lol
[08:17:29] <Error_404> both of which already boot solaris plenty fine
[08:18:03] <dlg> Error_404: hp was giving away itaniums to developers at one point
[08:18:20] <dlg> but they got in trouble for doing that cos the numbers were approaching their sales figures i think
[08:19:12] <Error_404> heh, makes sense
[08:19:43] <dlg> i think they changed it so you had to pay something to get the dev hardware
[08:19:48] <dlg> like half a grand or something
[08:19:57] * dlg doesnt really know
[08:19:58] <Error_404> it'd be nice if they'd just get rid of their old itanium 1 kit... stuff that nobody wants... by giving it to devs
[08:20:03] <dlg> i could have been fed lies
[08:21:45] <dlg> ive lost a megaraid
[08:21:48] * dlg wonder where it is
[08:22:58] <ofu> my itanium warms my room when it is cold outside
[08:23:19] <dlg> im tempted to use mine as a local cvs repo
[08:23:24] <dlg> and use ramdisks
[08:23:29] <Error_404> I'd love to see solaris boot on every modern architecture that one is likely to encounter (itanium, mips, power, and the ones it already does... maybe hppa too)
[08:23:51] <dlg> ugh, mips
[08:23:58] <Error_404> ATM the only port in progress is PPC
[08:24:17] <dlg> i wonder how that effort will go now that apple has transitioned off them
[08:24:24] <Error_404> it'll go just fine
[08:24:51] <Error_404> IBM still makes some nice kit, and more to the point so does genesi
[08:25:02] <dlg> genesi is dead
[08:25:05] <Error_404> they want to push SPARC though
[08:25:20] <Error_404> genesi's not dead, he's just sleeping
[08:25:27] * dlg shrug
[08:25:28] <Error_404> he's pining for the fjords
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[08:26:20] <Error_404> my point is just that genesi can provide cheap PPC kit, and IBM still wants to push good PPC kit
[08:26:39] <dlg> im saying genesi is getting out of the ppc game
[08:26:50] <Error_404> IBM's not
[08:27:11] <dlg> no, but its expensive
[08:27:26] <Error_404> they still want everyone using linux or AIX on power... why not give 'em a run for their money?
[08:27:27] <gisburn> anyone else left ? apple gone, genesi gone, ... ?
[08:27:42] <dlg> that kind of porting effort will be done by some unemployed bum who can afford something cheap like a pegasos
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[08:27:52] <dlg> or buy someone who is paid for by a big company
[08:27:55] <Error_404> like me and dclarke :)
[08:28:04] <dlg> which company is going to pay for someone to port solaris to power?
[08:28:09] <Error_404> (unemployed but not completely broke... not paid for)
[08:28:40] <Error_404> Sun already employs a couple guys that do that very thing
[08:28:49] <dlg> oh?
[08:28:52] <asyd> \_o<
[08:28:56] <dlg> how long?
[08:29:34] <Error_404> beats me, a while anyways
[08:29:45] <Error_404> they just threw some code over the wall
[08:29:54] <Error_404> it boots, for small definitions of "boots"
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[08:30:01] <Error_404> (it can't map it's memory yet)
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[08:30:46] <Error_404> so, regardless as to weather you think it's pointless, it'll happen
[08:30:56] <dlg> i dont think it's pointless
[08:31:43] <dlg> i just think its hard to find the people to do it
[08:31:54] <dlg> and even harder to get those people into a situation where they can do it
[08:32:39] <Error_404> well, i'm pretty committed to seeing it happen, so are a couple others
[08:33:16] * dlg nod
[08:33:24] <Error_404> PPC simply just because the works already been started...
[08:35:01] <Error_404> though i suppose given a choice, i'd pick PPC anyways
[08:35:38] <dlg> k
[08:36:58] <Error_404> i just probably wouldn't have bothered with 32bit ppc
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[09:45:14] <onlinebacon> hey
[09:45:31] <Doc> and before anyone complains, yes we know sunsolve is dead
[09:45:36] <asyd> :)
[09:45:46] <onlinebacon> I have a dvd of nevada build 49, if i install that would i be able to update and then sort opensolaris out?
[09:46:11] <Error_404> yes
[09:46:17] <onlinebacon> cool
[09:46:20] <Error_404> there's a hump to get over from 49
[09:46:38] <Error_404> but it goes like this: install JDS vermillion, then bfu up to ON 51
[09:46:51] <Error_404> then you're good
[09:46:55] <onlinebacon> cool
[09:47:11] <onlinebacon> thanks
[09:47:14] <Error_404> unless you want to do liveupgrade, in which case you're on your own (not really, i just won't be any help)
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[09:50:46] <onlinebacon> if i dont install jds would i still have to install jds vermillion?
[09:50:51] <onlinebacon> like, if i wasnt going to use jds
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[10:00:04] <Error_404> onlinebacon: iirc, it has to do with the way solaris handles hot-plugging of devices
[10:00:27] <onlinebacon> oh ok
[10:00:31] <Error_404> so you need a bunch of the dependencies
[10:00:52] <Error_404> you're best off just installing vermillion51 & being done with it
[10:01:04] <Error_404> cull the packages later if you like
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[10:09:18] <Doc> sunsolve is alive it would seem
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[10:20:37] <raph_ael> hello
[10:21:05] <whaq> hell
[10:21:06] <whaq> o
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[10:51:23] <LeftWing> So! Who knows tape autoloaders?  Can I put a DLT7000 drive in a Sun DLT4700 autoloader? =)
[10:52:49] <quasi> if you get a large enough hammer, I'm sure you can make it fit ;)
[10:53:04] <LeftWing> Well DLT7000s and DLT4000s are the same size.
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[10:55:45] <Doc> no
[10:56:01] <Doc> the mechanism is different between DLT4k and DLT7k
[10:56:08] <LeftWing> The loader mechanism?
[10:56:15] <Doc> (blame quantum, not sun)
[10:56:27] <Doc> most likely they changed it for exactly this reason
[10:56:30] <LeftWing> haha
[10:56:31] <LeftWing> yeah
[10:56:38] <LeftWing> How.. different... :)
[10:56:58] <Doc> well, do you have a standalone DLT7k drive, or a library drive?
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[10:57:31] <LeftWing> Standalone now that I think about it.
[10:57:39] <Doc> then it's very, very different
[10:57:58] <LeftWing> Can't just remove the handle?
[10:58:10] <Doc> nope. completely different mechanism
[10:58:21] <LeftWing> heh
[10:58:36] <richlowe> bloody hell it got cold fast.
[10:58:46] <LeftWing> So the difference being between 4000 library and standalone versions?
[10:59:24] <Doc> 4k standalone, 4k library, 7k standalone are all different
[10:59:37] <LeftWing> Alrighty.  What about 7k standalone and 7k library?
[10:59:59] <Doc> different
[11:00:18] <Doc> 4k standalone and 7k standalone are similar, but even then slightly different
[11:00:23] <LeftWing> heh
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[11:10:06] <purple|work> hi all
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[11:10:13] <purple|work> can someone tel me
[11:10:14] <[aa]> Hoya
[11:10:23] <purple|work> can i run gnome on open sol*
[11:11:43] <ofu> why will java be gpl, not cddl?
[11:11:52] <delewis> ofu: marketing ploy.
[11:12:03] <delewis> purple|work: No, OpenSolaris is not an operating system.
[11:12:31] <richlowe> delewis: more cynical than usual today?
[11:12:38] <delewis> No one knows what the CDDL is, but *everyone* and their dog knows what the GPL is.
[11:12:44] <purple|work> really?
[11:12:45] <delewis> richlowe: :-)
[11:12:57] <purple|work> what is it than?
[11:13:02] <Cyrille> purple|work: but you can run Gnome on OpenSolaris distributions
[11:13:03] <LeftWing> CDDL is SMS slang for Hug, isn't it/
[11:13:23] <dlg> LeftWing: sun code is like free huggz
[11:13:32] <LeftWing> Oh dear lord, not Free Huggz.
[11:13:33] <delewis> purple|work: I really don't feel like giving a technical explanation at the moment, but if you want an actual operating system, you need to use one of the OpenSolaris-based distributions.
[11:13:44] <delewis> like Solaris Express, Nexenta, etc.
[11:13:48] <purple|work> oh
[11:13:51] <LeftWing> Like Solaris Express, Nexenta, Schillix, etc
[11:13:54] <delewis> Solaris Express includes Gnome 2.6
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[11:14:01] <purple|work> but i downloading something from SUN website
[11:14:04] <richlowe> delewis: 2.14.
[11:14:05] <purple|work> sthat is it=
[11:14:06] <bor1> just select gnome session at dt login
[11:14:06] <Cyrille> Like Solaris Express, Nexenta, Schillix, Belenix, etc
[11:14:08] <Gman> GPL is already OSI approved
[11:14:09] <Cyrille> who's next?
[11:14:20] <Gman> agreed and adopted by the free software community
[11:14:22] <richlowe> delewis: (express should be past the 2.14 integration by now, anyway)
[11:14:27] <Gman> it was a no brainer to put Java under that
[11:14:28] <LeftWing> Cyrille: No, What's next.
[11:14:32] <delewis> Gman: and the CDDL isn't?
[11:14:41] <delewis> [sic]
[11:14:41] <Gman> delewis, quite frankly, no
[11:14:44] <Gman> :)
[11:14:45] <LeftWing> delewis: Adopted. =P
[11:14:50] <Cyrille> LeftWing: I meant "who's going to continue the list and add one more element" ;-)
[11:14:54] <dlg> who is the osi?
[11:14:56] <Gman> gcj and classpath are already gpl
[11:15:06] <LeftWing> Cyrille: And I was alluding to Abbot & Costello. =P
[11:15:08] <Gman> caused the least amount of pain
[11:15:11] <dlg> why should i care about their opinion?
[11:15:24] <delewis> if Sun would've put the various Java bits under the CDDL, it'd force people to take a look at the CDDL as a serious GPL contender, though.
[11:15:35] <Cyrille> LeftWing: aha, got it now, slow brain on Monday morning...
[11:15:36] <Gman> glassfish is still under the CDDL
[11:15:37] <delewis> instead, Sun has missed an oppurtunity and left the CDDL out to dry.
[11:15:55] <Gman> gpl was a better fit for java
[11:16:00] <LeftWing> delewis: Or, it would force people to continue using GCJ and calling it "Java" because it's GPL.  And people getting frustrated that their "Java" doesn't work as well as Sun claims it should.
[11:16:03] <dlg> delewis: you say that like the cddl and the gpl are equivilent
[11:16:03] <Gman> don't try and shoehorn a license to fit all
[11:16:14] <Cyrille> you mean like GPL?
[11:16:15] <dlg> you cant say that all osi approved licenses are the same
[11:16:17] <bor1> can extra privileges reuired to use a device be listed with any tool ? getdevpolicy just shows read and write policies
[11:16:18] <Cyrille> Sorry.
[11:16:19] <delewis> Cyrille: :-)
[11:16:24] <Gman> gpl + classpath ~= lgpl
[11:18:30] <bor1> test
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[11:20:43] <delewis> I wonder what Sun plans to do with Netbeans
[11:21:10] <LeftWing> It's under ... the Sun Public License, or some such?
[11:21:15] <delewis> (given it's under the CDDL, and from SJVN's article, one gets the impression that the reason Sun GPL'd Java was to encourage development via Netbeans)
[11:21:20] <delewis> LeftWing: CDDL
[11:21:24] <LeftWing> Ahh, CDDL.
[11:21:26] <LeftWing> Cool
[11:23:15] <Gman> sjvn is an ass
[11:24:08] <richlowe> damn.
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[11:28:36] * Gman registers openjdk and openjava on freenode
[11:28:47] <Gman> no idea if java dudes actually irc, but seems useful to do so
[11:29:03] <delewis> well, there is a ##java, afterall.
[11:29:27] * twincest yawn
[11:29:32] <Cyrille> yes, but it's more about programming if I'm not mistaken.
[11:29:54] <delewis> Cyrille: *cough* more like helping teenies with their Java homework *cough*
[11:30:11] <Cyrille> true.
[11:30:18] <purple|work> can solaris be used like a desjktop OS?
[11:30:40] <Gman> heh
[11:30:41] <delewis> purple|work: any OS can be used a desktop OS, depending on one's needs and one's degree of masochism.
[11:30:50] <purple|work> true
[11:30:53] <purple|work> :)
[11:32:21] <[aa]> just as cat/sed/awk/grep/redirects can be thought off as an editor
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[13:38:09] <wizzomafizzo> does anyone know if opensolaris supports the ipw2200 wifi drivers?
[13:39:35] <dlg> i think someones ported damiens code
[13:41:02] <dlg> http://www.opensolaris.org/os/community/laptop/wireless/ipw/
[13:41:13] <wizzomafizzo> hah yes
[13:41:15] <wizzomafizzo> i JUST found that
[13:41:19] <wizzomafizzo> awesome =)
[13:41:28] <wizzomafizzo> thanks for that
[13:42:29] <dlg> thank damien
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[13:43:14] <wizzomafizzo> is he here?
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[13:44:50] <onlinebacon> hey
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[13:45:43] <dlg> no
[13:48:11] <dlg> http://damien.bergamini.free.fr/ral/
[13:48:42] <coolvibe> what about ipw3945?
[13:49:14] <dlg> he has a driver for that too
[13:49:22] <dlg> dunno if someones ported it to solaris though
[13:49:33] <coolvibe> hm, interesting
[13:50:00] 
[13:50:23] <coolvibe> are there bluetooth stacks for solaris out there that anyone knows about?
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[13:52:19] <wizzomafizzo> ya, as long as my wifi works i would love to try this on my laptop
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[13:55:09] <onlinebacon> yeah there is a rt2500 driver for solaris :)
[13:55:38] <onlinebacon> because I have a rt2500 and it worked for me, you need to download it off of the opensolaris site
[13:55:43] <dlg> you should all buy ralink cards anyway
[13:55:43] <onlinebacon> lemme get a link for you
[13:57:15] <onlinebacon> www.opensolaris.org/os/community/laptop/wireless/ral/;jsessionid=2B62B34A6E4184AB29C3672646CEA257
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[14:02:43] <coolvibe> dlg: I'd have to buy a pcmcia/cardbus version... bleh :)
[14:03:36] <dlg> they exist
[14:03:41] <dlg> you should still buy one
[14:04:00] <onlinebacon> the rt2500 is good, works under bsd, linux, and solaris
[14:04:32] <dlg> the company is awesome
[14:06:31] <onlinebacon> not that great
[14:06:40] <onlinebacon> just good that they let people make drivers for the card
[14:08:26] <dlg> they allow distribution of their firmwares
[14:08:31] <dlg> and they give doco on request
[14:08:43] <dlg> thats miles better than most of the vendors out there
[14:10:23] <onlinebacon> true
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[14:39:01] <dlg> n8
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[15:20:51] <richlowe> the excuses regarding in-place upgrade seem particularly weak.
[15:21:26] <richlowe> boyd: and I did misunderstand, it appears the suggestion was none at all, not just no running in-place upgrade.
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[15:27:40] <regx> sup
[15:28:01] <regx> im new to OSOL wondering if anyone knew of a good doc location for me to start learning ?
[15:28:44] <regx> nm i just read the topic ;) sorry
[15:28:49] <quasi> docs.sun.com
[15:29:13] <regx> thanks man
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[15:32:10] <edp> is there an interface that can be used to utilize ZFS transactions in programs?
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[15:37:16] <dlg> edp: execve?
[15:38:00] <edp> i mean being able to say delete 1000 files atomically in a single transaction
[15:38:33] <edp> ZFS supports it but i just read the FAQ that says there's no stable interface for users to control transactions
[15:38:44] <edp> i'm not sure if there are any unstable interfaces or not though
[15:39:03] <regx> so i sould read up on the WIKI to learn from the beginner stance right?
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[16:27:39] <boro> test
[16:27:50] <regx> sup
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[16:34:34] <bougie> hello
[16:34:47] <regx> sup
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[16:43:03] <edgy> Anybody upgraded to 51?  volfs is removed, and I read that rmmounted/something else would replace it, but I dont see any such tools in my system ;P
[16:44:15] <edgy> Is there a simple dtrace script that will show the name of every file as it is accessed?
[16:45:09] <regx> is docs.sun.com or whatever the best place for docs?
[16:46:54] <zarathustra> https://openjdk.dev.java.net/  :)
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[16:48:12] <regx> thanks man
[16:48:35] <regx> that wasnt ment for i dont think lol
[16:59:17] <AbeFroman> when is the updated cert for updatemanager going to drop?
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[17:14:11] <gdamore> good morning!
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[17:14:41] <regx> sup
[17:15:23] <richlowe> mornin' gdamore.
[17:15:56] <icon> morning guys
[17:16:36] <gdamore> i seem to recall there was going to be some big HPC announcement(s) from Sun today, but nothing is posted yet.
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[17:18:23] <regx> is sun the best place for docs ? im trying to learn SOLARIS so i can start using BrandZ zones
[17:18:56] <gdamore> docs.sun.com has some good info, though I've not researched brandZ specifically
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[17:19:39] <gdamore> interesting.  Sun is open sourcing Java, meanwhile Apple takes an even stricter stance on the Darwin license.
[17:19:56] <icon> meh
[17:20:10] <icon> dunno, im dissappointed in using gpl
[17:20:15] <regx> any tips for a solaris newb?
[17:20:20] <icon> i understand the why, but i still dont like it
[17:20:29] <trygvis> icon: same here
[17:20:34] <icon> regx: shell into a box, get busy :)
[17:20:37] <gdamore> i can't stand GPL myself, but for something like Java I just don't care.
[17:20:47] <icon> well, i make my living in the java world at the moment :/
[17:21:00] <icon> not much room for systems programmers in the midwest anymore
[17:21:27] <icon> i never found the cddl to be restrictive at all
[17:21:36] <gdamore> heh.  I'm a systems programmer and I live hundreds of miles from the nearest real systems shop.
[17:21:49] <regx> icon, get busy on what :)
[17:21:49] <gdamore> i like cddl.  it is cleaner than GPL for many things.
[17:21:54] <icon> java had open standards, it shouldnt be sun's responsiblity to release vm source code because ibm and gnu are too stupid to make their own that are worth a damn
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[17:22:17] <icon> gcj and ibm's vm's are abominations
[17:22:21] <delewis> icon: people do not want open standards anymore
[17:22:26] <delewis> then want something they can fuck up on their own.
[17:22:30] <icon> delewis: people need their headds checked
[17:22:31] <gdamore> icon: but GPL'ing a JVM shouldn't be a bad thing?  I mean, better open Sun's with GPL restrictions than closed, right?
[17:22:36] <delewis> note my usage of "fuck up"
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[17:22:45] <icon> gdamore: i go back and forth
[17:22:57] <icon> i think sun has a perfect right to keep their vm closed... its the best vm out there, for a reason
[17:23:07] <delewis> icon: not necessarily.
[17:23:14] <delewis> the IBM VM has better performance in some cases
[17:23:19] <delewis> and for years it had better performance, period.
[17:23:23] <icon> delewis: ahh, but they screw up on compliancy
[17:23:52] <gdamore> well, I'd think an Open Source JVM might allow broader community participation, from folks who want to make the Sun VM even better.
[17:24:16] <delewis> well, even so, hopefully this kill the move to .Net, where Solaris has *no* chance of making in-roads into those sort of shops.
[17:24:23] <delewis> Java adoption gives Solaris that chance.
[17:24:32] <icon> well
[17:24:40] <icon> what is good is more porting
[17:24:49] <icon> i would kill for a sun vm on mac
[17:24:52] <icon> apple's vm's blow goats
[17:25:06] <delewis> yes, Apple is beginning not to care about Java, anyway.
[17:25:10] <icon> yeah
[17:25:10] <gdamore> well, now you can undertake to port Sun's. :-)
[17:25:16] <delewis> the ObjC->Java bridge is no longer useful
[17:25:19] <delewis> (and never really was)
[17:25:22] <icon> which sucks because apple is such a fantastic java dev env
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[17:25:34] <gdamore> heh.  Apple closing up Darwin, makes me think Apple doesn't care about much beyond their niche community.
[17:25:41] <icon> yeah
[17:25:44] <icon> im rather annoyed with that
[17:25:51] <icon> i cant believe they killed opendarwin
[17:25:53] <gdamore> i wouldn't be surprised if in a few years Apple is confined to just ipods.
[17:25:58] <icon> i guess they felt it lost its sex appeal
[17:26:01] <delewis> lessons can be learned from the OpenDarwin project
[17:26:14] <delewis> (1) don't hold bits back that are necessary for building
[17:26:23] <gdamore> yes, but i think there is a huge difference in the open darwin vs. the open solaris grops.
[17:26:30] <icon> (2) dont ignore the community
[17:26:31] <gdamore> groups.
[17:26:38] <delewis> (2) if the build system is complicated, make sure your new adopters are up on the terminology
[17:26:50] <delewis> (3) accept community patches
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[17:27:04] <icon> im sure alot of it is because of the move to intel
[17:27:10] <icon> they are worried about mac os on commodity hardware
[17:27:16] <icon> and its getting *close*
[17:27:21] <gdamore> delewis: I think Sun has it down.
[17:27:31] <icon> its possible to build a machine now that will run mac os perfectly
[17:27:34] <gdamore> icon: Nice thing about Solaris is that it _already_ runs on commodity hardware.
[17:27:37] <icon> yup
[17:27:40] <delewis> gdamore: the openness of the development could use some work, I think.
[17:27:43] <delewis> and the bug database :-)
[17:27:51] <gdamore> dewlewis++
[17:27:52] <icon> i happen to like mac os quite a bit for some things
[17:28:01] <icon> but with gnome closing the gap on each release, its now not as big of a deal
[17:28:09] <delewis> Apple ran into the same problems, which is why I say a lot can be learned.
[17:28:16] <delewis> from the closing of OpenDarwin, that is.
[17:28:16] <icon> their choice of hardware is excellent though
[17:28:23] <icon> if it wasnt for that f'n one button mouse
[17:28:31] <gdamore> Sun has hardware that can't be reproduced with whiteboxes.  Apple doesn't.  That's why Sun can be free with the OS, whereas Apple is worried about free MacOS.
[17:28:40] <icon> yeah
[17:29:03] <delewis> and Sun isn't appealing to consumers who want to run their enterprise-grade operating system on the cheapest hardware *possible*
[17:29:05] <icon> dunno, im constantly suprised at how much people like to bitch about sun when sun has given more than any other company in existance
[17:29:24] <delewis> most people in the world have enough of a clue to go out and buy decent hardware (a.k.a Sun) to do anything meaingful.
[17:29:28] <delewis> meaningful*
[17:29:36] * delewis hates typing over a lagging SSH session
[17:29:48] <icon> delewis: same here. i have to tunnel over a frigging http proxy
[17:29:49] <gdamore> icon++
[17:29:54] <icon> about 500ms lag
[17:29:57] <gdamore> ouch.
[17:30:06] <jbk> depends.. i know too many places that run their critical stuff on junk whiteboxes, then bitch when they start having problems :)
[17:30:12] <quasi> icon: much more fun if you tunnel over dns
[17:30:14] <delewis> mine isn't that bad, but I'm typing over an SSGD session in an XTerm which makes things much worse :-)
[17:30:20] <jbk> because they never consider the cost of an outage until it actually happens
[17:30:57] <gdamore> jbk: nobody runs enterprise servers on MacOS, so an outage is only a minor inconvenience.
[17:31:03] <delewis> I prefer doing things the "right way" (TM). Why bother running an enterprise-grade operating system (even if you think Linux fits this defintion) on $2 hardware.
[17:31:09] <delewis> there's some sort of bottleneck there.
[17:31:10] <icon> quasi: meh, http is the only hole i can find here at work
[17:31:19] <delewis> as in the software running on that $2 system is only as good as the $2, itself.
[17:31:26] <delewis> system*
[17:31:33] <icon> mac os is actually decent under the covers
[17:31:42] <quasi> icon: the dns tunnel is often useful on pay wireless nets
[17:31:45] <icon> its a mach kernel with fbsd5 runtime
[17:31:56] <icon> they have some interesting takes on system init (not as cool as smf, but its not bad)
[17:32:09] <delewis> icon: most of it is not Apple's creation
[17:32:11] <gdamore> delewis: I still like running enterprise grade Solaris, and I want to do so on the cheap.  I mean, I"m looking to build a $500-ish Via system as an SATA storage NAS device running Solaris Nevada and ZFS.  Some might say this is insance.
[17:32:14] <delewis> do not give them credit
[17:32:15] <gdamore> insane. :-)
[17:32:17] <icon> delewis: exactly, which is why its decent :D
[17:32:23] <delewis> NeXT should receive all credit for OS X
[17:32:28] <icon> they should
[17:32:34] <icon> but no one really likes to remember what happened to next
[17:32:57] <icon> mac os was a peiece of utter shit until they started remember that maybe next had a few things right
[17:32:57] <delewis> icon: it's one of those (many) cases, where consumers refused a superior product for a less superior one.
[17:33:08] <icon> delewis: all marketing
[17:33:09] <gdamore> icon++
[17:33:21] <icon> we are the hardware minority
[17:33:25] <gdamore> NeXT didn't have the same app support that MacOS did.
[17:33:26] <delewis> like *cough* and endless amount of RISC-based architectures that we've seen die recently *cough*
[17:33:42] <icon> the choice of mach was great... fat bin's rock
[17:33:51] <delewis> gdamore: maybe not, but it was amazing for such a niche operating system
[17:33:51] <icon> sun could benefit from that greatly
[17:33:54] <gdamore> i'm very, very glad that niagra is around keeping SPARC alive. :-)
[17:33:59] <delewis> Adobe, Lotus, etc. were all on the NeXT boat.
[17:34:14] <icon> gdamore: same here. i was a huge sparc/mips junkie in college
[17:34:24] * delewis is still a SPARC junkie
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[17:34:31] <gdamore> I think Microsoft Word and Excel were the killer MacOS apps. :-)  Until MS ported them to Windows 3.x.
[17:34:32] <icon> i cant afford to be anymore :/
[17:34:36] <delewis> then again, I transitioned from x86 to SPARC, so I'm a bit of an exception. :-)
[17:34:45] <asyd> :)
[17:34:57] <icon> dunno
[17:35:09] <icon> one of those T2000's would look pretty sexy in my rack at home ;)
[17:35:10] <gdamore> i prefer sparc for most things, but the power consumption on desktop/lowend systems is unpleasant.
[17:35:16] <icon> it is
[17:35:21] <icon> heat output is up there too
[17:35:24] <gdamore> yep.
[17:35:36] <icon> dunno, the opteron is getting pretty loaded these days
[17:35:38] <gdamore> this is one of the reasons why I'm still keen to do a MIPS port.
[17:35:49] <icon> i shudder to think whats going to happen when i up the cpu and add 4 new disks
[17:35:53] <gdamore> the Via C3s are pretty efficient.
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[17:36:12] * delewis is curious to see what his power bill will be like when the E4500 and 22 disk Photon are turned on
[17:36:13] <icon> they are, but i cant really see using one of those unless you were doing a nas box
[17:36:19] <icon> man
[17:36:20] <delewis> blackout. :-)
[17:36:21] <gdamore> nothing like the performance you get from a high-end opteron, but efficient.
[17:36:24] <icon> have you gotten the 4.5k yet?
[17:36:32] <delewis> icon: coming in on freight today :-)
[17:36:35] <icon> nice!
[17:36:41] <delewis> in the next 2 or 3 hours, actually.
[17:36:44] <icon> take pics ;)
[17:36:51] <icon> im bored of looking at sunfires
[17:36:56] <delewis> as soon as I get it inside :-)
[17:37:02] <gdamore> hmm... typing 4.5k actually requires the same number of chars as typing 4500. :-)
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[17:37:21] <icon> gdamore: bonus for style though ;)
[17:37:36] <gdamore> ah.
[17:37:37] <icon> if there is anything mac has taught us, its all about style over substance!
[17:38:20] <delewis> that certainly applies to the one-button mouse.
[17:38:29] <icon> the mighty mouse kills me
[17:38:33] <delewis> there isn't a whole lot of substance to that :-)
[17:38:35] <gdamore> icon: anyway, Via based cpus could be nice even for certain other entry level server class systems.  e.g. how much cpu do you need to run an entry level HTTP server?  Even a DBMS doesn't require that much CPU unless you need to service a zillion connections.
[17:38:42] <delewis> so I guess it is all style, instead
[17:38:45] <icon> its still one button, it just has touch sensors to indicate if its a right or left click
[17:39:12] <icon> gdamore: well depends on cpu usage
[17:39:24] <icon> heavy indexing, collating, and stored procs would murder a via
[17:39:30] <gdamore> heh.  one button mice.  :-)  eventually the mouse will be obsolete, replaced by sensors to detect finger/hand motion in the air.
[17:39:45] <icon> then again, an oracle 10g has about a 1.2GB baseline on sol10 ;)
[17:39:54] <icon> gdamore: not sure i like that
[17:40:00] <icon> ala minority report
[17:40:05] <icon> i need something tactile
[17:40:32] <gdamore> i'd think most "entry level" database applications use simple lookups most of the time, and not stored procs or even very frequent reindexing.
[17:40:43] <icon> then again, i forget most of the world runs mysql or something like that ;)
[17:40:54] <icon> yeah
[17:41:01] <gdamore> heh.  mysql has grown up a lot.
[17:41:11] <icon> bleh, its still an abomination :D
[17:41:19] <gdamore> i remember writing a front-end server for msql (not mysql) before mysql was available.
[17:41:20] <delewis> which is unfortunate, given PostgreSQL
[17:41:23] <icon> dunno, i prefer postgres for its oracle'ishness
[17:41:26] <delewis> which actually tries to be a real RDBMS
[17:41:46] <icon> yeah
[17:41:47] <delewis> I still prefer Oracle and DB2 over PostgreSQL
[17:41:50] <gdamore> i'm no database guy, but why is mysql so bad?
[17:41:51] <icon> yeah
[17:42:00] <icon> gdamore: its a glorified filesystem
[17:42:11] <delewis> PostgreSQL is nice for a monolithic database, but if you want to do partitioning or replication you're out of luck.
[17:42:17] <icon> well
[17:42:22] <icon> postgres has too many datatypes
[17:42:23] <delewis> though, I hear replication isn't *too* bad on Postgres nowadays
[17:42:24] <gdamore> so?  why is that bad?
[17:42:32] <icon> i prefer oracle dynamic types
[17:42:33] <gdamore> (being a glorified filesystem i mean)
[17:42:35] <libkeiser> it conflates NULL and empty string. it silently drops errors, it thinks NULL is context-sensitive, etc.
[17:42:40] <delewis> gdamore: MySQL does not comply with SQL specs
[17:42:41] <icon> ie: NUMBER can expand up to NUMBER(13)
[17:42:51] <delewis> code written for MySQL is unportable in almost all cases
[17:42:56] <icon> yup
[17:43:03] <icon> MySQL craps all over SQL92+
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[17:43:16] <icon> not sure about now, but before, you had no stored proc's, views, or functions
[17:43:16] <gdamore> heh.  didn't realize that.  but when I do much SQL stuff, I keep to a pretty minimal subset of ANSI SQL.
[17:43:29] <gdamore> recently they got all three of those  i think.
[17:43:32] <icon> not to mention 'transactions' werent ACID
[17:43:39] <icon> ahh
[17:43:57] <gdamore> (as in the last mysql release).  I've not tried it yet though.  i don't have any dbms apps at the moment.
[17:44:04] <libkeiser> it's still not transactional if you mix 'regular' sql commands with ddl commands
[17:44:07] <icon> oracle is a beast, but when you have one that is tuned and someone who knows what they are doing behind the helm, you cant beat it
[17:44:15] <gdamore> (at least apart from Sun Ray, which uses LDAP for its DB. :-)
[17:44:25] <icon> gdamore: no kidding?
[17:44:27] <delewis> of course finding competent Oracle administrators is difficult :-)
[17:44:37] <delewis> that is unless you can pay them > 6 figures.
[17:44:39] <icon> delewis: just like anything else ;)
[17:44:48] <gdamore> icon: true statement.
[17:44:49] <delewis> it's a bit of an art and practice to become a competent Oracle DB
[17:45:08] <delewis> DBA*
[17:45:13] <icon> delewis: thats the truth. i was at mastercard for a while, a HUGE sun and oracle shop. I actually had to lecture a DBA on how views were updatable...
[17:45:44] <icon> not to mention she had our instance running without the vm installed, so JTA transactions werent working
[17:45:55] <delewis> and the real gems are your administrators who are both competent in Oracle and UNIX
[17:45:57] <icon> people forget how much oracle uses java now
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[17:46:08] <icon> delewis: yup. ive only come across a couple of those
[17:46:31] <gdamore> i didn't know it did at all.  but I've been out of the sysadmin loop for quite some time.  (nearly a decade now.)
[17:46:41] <delewis> gdamore: huge bits of Java
[17:46:43] <icon> gdamore: oh yeah. tons :)
[17:46:46] <delewis> especialy Enterprise Manager
[17:46:48] <icon> yup
[17:46:51] <icon> emctl is slow as hell
[17:46:54] <delewis> the installer, itself, is Java
[17:46:55] <delewis> icon: yes
[17:47:11] <icon> it actually uses oracle as (based on orion) for an app server
[17:47:22] <delewis> I should dtrace it some day (next time I come across an Oracle system running Solaris) and figure out what the fuck emctl is doing to be so slow
[17:47:35] <icon> man let me know
[17:47:36] <delewis> my personal Oracle DB server is a pSeries at the moment running AIX
[17:47:41] <delewis> so no DTrace there :-)
[17:47:41] <icon> 5 minutes to startup is retarded
[17:47:51] <gdamore> port Solaris! :-)
[17:47:56] <icon> half the time i just use commandline... screw emctl
[17:47:57] <jbk> i have weblogic apps that take 45mins to start :)
[17:47:58] <delewis> lsnrctl is blazing fast
[17:48:02] <delewis> pretty much all of the *ctl tools
[17:48:05] <icon> sqlplus /nolog ftw!
[17:48:10] <delewis> except emctl perform decently
[17:48:19] <icon> yeah
[17:48:24] <icon> i think emctl starts up an AS instance
[17:48:38] <icon> emctl isnt required to run oracle... just lsnrctl
[17:48:48] <icon> its just the web console
[17:48:51] <delewis> emctl is good for performance statistics and error monitoring
[17:48:56] <icon> well, dbconsole rather :D
[17:49:01] <icon> yeah
[17:49:02] <delewis> those are two things it excels at
[17:49:05] <delewis> (and about the only two)
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[17:49:13] <icon> man, i spent ages writing a decent smf script for that
[17:49:15] <delewis> the rest, I use sqlplus
[17:49:16] <delewis> :-)
[17:49:22] <icon> i think ill make a port category for smf scripts
[17:49:30] <icon> im sick of people never writing their own manifests
[17:49:50] <delewis> I think IBM still has it down better than Oracle when it comes to their EM-equivalent
[17:50:00] <delewis> no bloated AS instance
[17:50:03] <delewis> simple Java client
[17:50:04] <icon> ive only been on the user end of db2
[17:50:12] <icon> which unfortunately is db2/400 at the moment :/
[17:50:13] <delewis> quite fast, actually
[17:50:58] <delewis> generally, I prefer Oracle, but there's just a few niche things that love about DB2
[17:51:04] <delewis> particularly how it does partitioning
[17:51:12] <delewis> it was *built* to do partitioning
[17:51:17] <icon> ibm always was good about partitions
[17:51:29] <icon> they have a few big ass power5+'s here
[17:51:36] <icon> several pseries boxes
[17:51:39] <delewis> with Oracle it always seems like an after-thought
[17:51:46] <icon> yeah
[17:51:47] <delewis> at least configuring RAC has given me that impression a few times
[17:51:54] * jbk hisses
[17:51:58] <icon> but ibm and oracle had hugely different philosophies in the old days
[17:52:10] <quasi> icon: it still comes at a price - micropartitioning on power 5 adds 20% overhead ;)
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[17:52:31] <icon> quasi: who said anything about micropartitioning ;)
[17:52:36] <jbk> crs can take a flying leap
[17:52:49] <delewis> I was just referring to database partitioning anyway
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[17:52:52] <delewis> not virtualization
[17:52:57] <jbk> sorriest excuse for cluster software i've seen :)
[17:53:04] <delewis> jbk: you said it.
[17:53:20] <delewis> and I still haven't figured out why ASM requires crs
[17:53:21] * jbk just had it execute /sbin/reboot on an e25k domain for no reason
[17:53:25] <delewis> in fact, I doubt I want to know :_)
[17:53:27] <delewis> :-)
[17:53:46] <jbk> delewis: because oracle wants to pretend the OS (and thus the sysadmin) doesn't exist
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[17:54:15] <delewis> jbk: I thought that was IBM :-)
[17:54:17] <delewis> and Global Services
[17:54:39] <jbk> oracle was trying to push CRS on us to do all the clustering
[17:54:44] <jbk> i'm glad we didn't buy into it
[17:54:45] <delewis> ugh.
[17:54:53] <jbk> seeing how 'unbreakable' it is
[17:55:13] <jbk> i've seen eggs dropped from the top of a building more unbreakable :)
[17:55:25] <jbk> but i need to stop venting now before i get carried away...
[17:55:54] <delewis> IIRC, the last shop I worked at we bought into CRS (because of the ASM requirement), but still used IBM HACMP for clustering and HA underneath
[17:56:46] <jbk> yeah, that's kinda what we're doing here -- crs for RAC, VCS for everything else (plus the bits that are supposed to let the two coexist)
[17:56:52] <sommerfeld> jbk: the usual excuse for such things: want to quickly kill a "failed" cluster node before it does something the cluster mgt doesn't want it to do...
[17:57:23] <jbk> sommerfeld: unfortuantely it doesn't say what that was, and merely killing oracle would be sufficient instead of rebooting the whole domain
[17:57:41] <regx> is there a command to change shells without haveing to edit /etc/passwd?
[17:57:50] <delewis> regx: usermod
[17:57:53] <jbk> regx: /usr/sbin/usermod
[17:58:02] <regx> oh i totally forgot about that one
[17:58:03] <regx> thanks guys
[17:58:12] <twincest> (passwd -e)
[17:58:18] <jbk> i think there might be some flags to passwd that'll do it too
[17:58:28] <regx> i thought there was like a chsh command
[17:58:53] <delewis> regx: no
[17:58:59] <regx> cool usermod works
[17:59:11] <regx> what to do what to do hmm
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[18:00:05] <Kronuz> hello
[18:00:09] <regx> sp
[18:00:12] <regx> and sup
[18:00:52] <Kronuz> hey, do you know what FC SAN from IBM work with Solaris (x64)?
[18:01:14] <delewis> any of them should
[18:01:19] <delewis> they are re-branded Brocades
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[18:01:45] <Kronuz> hmm.. but don't they use drivers for multipath and redundancy?
[18:01:54] <Kronuz> and I was wondering about that
[18:01:55] <delewis> oh, you're talking about arrays
[18:02:01] <delewis> I thought you were talking about switches
[18:02:13] <Kronuz> well.. the SAN, yeah
[18:02:27] <delewis> Kronuz: any of the DS series should have drivers for Solaris, but I'm not certain about x86_64
[18:02:44] <Kronuz> yeah, I've seen the drivers listed for SPARC
[18:02:45] <delewis> ESS tends to be a bit more difficult to get working on Solaris, last I checked
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[18:02:55] <Kronuz> ESS?
[18:02:58] <libkeiser> shark
[18:03:02] <delewis> Enterprise Storage System (Sharks)
[18:03:09] <delewis> vpaths, and what not :-) (brings back memories)
[18:03:49] <Kronuz> how would you know if I'll be able to connect the IBM DS4700 to a Solaris running under x64 ?
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[18:04:00] <Kronuz> IBM isn't being very helpful :P
[18:04:08] <Kronuz> they seem to not want me use Solaris
[18:05:15] <libkeiser> even if you can get it working, are you sure you want to?  using an unsupported configuration is dangerous when ibm is involved.  i sure hope this system isn't critical ;)
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[18:05:36] <Kronuz> O_O
[18:05:52] <Kronuz> dangerous how?
[18:06:10] <Kronuz> on that they may give problems with hardware support too?
[18:06:17] <Kronuz> ('cause I'm not using a supported software)
[18:06:24] <Kronuz> :S
[18:06:37] <Kronuz> damn... I should just go with Sun servers
[18:06:53] <Kronuz> but they're giving me a bad selling service
[18:07:03] <libkeiser> well, say for instance you start getting silent corruption of data on some random lun on the fabric. if your CE is in a bad mood, he might decide to blame it on your "unsupported" sun box
[18:07:04] <Kronuz> (and I wonder if it'sgoing to be the same with support)
[18:07:30] <Kronuz> :S
[18:09:05] <regx> !seen zayten
[18:09:06] <Drone> I've never seen zayten talk in #opensolaris.
[18:09:11] <regx> interesting
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[18:15:19] <jbk> dammit.. fucking crs just did it *again*
[18:15:32] <sickness> evening all
[18:17:10] <jbk> oh even better.. it decided to reboot all the nodes in the cluster
[18:17:15] <Kronuz> delewis: I'm thinking about the StorageTek 6140
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[18:32:49] <edgy> bougie_: at once? >:P
[18:33:21] <edgy> jbk: at once? >:P
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[18:36:31] <|ReIkO|> hi all
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[18:36:58] <|ReIkO|> someone knows where ssh client pass command line options to server?
[18:37:51] <quasi> Kronuz: I've seen various shark thingies wired to sun servers - not fabulous, but it usually worked
[18:39:17] <Kronuz> has anyone worked with the Sun StorageTek 6140?
[18:42:14] <drio> Is there any way to get solaris express other than from the sun site? Download times are really crapy.... I haven't found any torrent ...
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[18:43:37] <jbk> edgy: yes
[18:43:55] <jbk> thankfully i've gotten good at recovering from that too
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[18:47:11] <axisys> i want to monitor t3 logs.. anyone knows what a typical string that i need to monitor? should it have the `error' string when the t3 logs should be taken seriously?
[18:47:41] <regx> *know
[18:48:46] <axisys> this is for T300 Release 1.18.04
[18:59:48] <axisys> verified.. error string catches all serious issues of t3 logs
[19:00:04] <kleppari> wow, didn't expect that..  Sun releasing java under gpl
[19:00:39] <regx> uh werent they talkinga bout that like months ago?
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[19:01:33] <kleppari> I didn't expect that today :P
[19:02:37] <kleppari> not gpl..
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[19:04:43] <alanc> I expected that today - but only since the internal heads up went out on Friday 8-)
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[19:05:23] <clee> alanc: heh
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[19:16:17] <edgy> wow, gpl...
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[19:25:28] <axisys> is it gplv2 or gplv2+?
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[19:27:53] <trygvis> gpl v2+exception
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[19:30:26] <alanc> gpl v3 to be considered after v3 is finalized
[19:30:30] <axisys> trygvis: is that mean it wont support gplv3 if that ever materialize
[19:30:39] <axisys> ok
[19:30:51] <trygvis> not at all, they can re-license it whenever they feel like it
[19:30:55] <quasi> alanc: if it ever is finished
[19:31:21] <rydis> So not containing the standard "or, at the users option, a later version of GPL" or however it's phrased?
[19:31:31] <d3vi1> alanc> also considered for solaris?
[19:31:54] <quasi> d3vi1: I think that is very unlikely to happen
[19:32:27] <trygvis> rydis: won't matter as if they will move to v3 later, they can re-license it whenever they feel like it
[19:32:52] <d3vi1> Jonathan asked the exact same thing a few minutes ago, as I was watching the live stream
[19:33:10] <d3vi1> and the answer was not clear (obviously)
[19:34:10] <rydis> trygvis: I can't make sense of that answer. But I guess I'll watch the announcement later, and maybe it will.
[19:34:11] <d3vi1> trygvis> if they cange the license, it means that the people that love the GPL2, can fork the product at the version before the change to v3 occurs
[19:34:14] * quasi doesn't like the gpl decision, but can see why sun thought it could make business sense
[19:34:21] <icon> well
[19:34:29] <icon> it helps keep it from being forked like bsd codebases
[19:34:48] <icon> personally i detest the gpl, but for protecting java, it wasnt a bad decision
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[19:34:57] <trygvis> d3vi1: people can fork it whenever they want to
[19:35:01] <alanc> d3vi1: GPL cannot be used as the Solaris license because it doesn't allow mixing with closed source bits and too many parts of Solaris are third party encumbered
[19:35:02] <quasi> icon: protecting revenue
[19:35:24] <quasi> icon: and making it harder for companies like ibm who have their own jvm
[19:35:25] <alanc> if Solaris used GPL, no other distros could exist - Schillix/Nexenta/etal. would go away
[19:35:34] <icon> quasi: one of java's biggest selling points is that its stable. if it were to be forked, everything sun has worked for the last 10+ years will be punked
[19:35:55] <icon> quasi: ibm seeks to make java their own... ibm java is a wretched thing
[19:35:57] <quasi> icon: and yet it works for solaris...
[19:36:13] <quasi> icon: nope, 100% compatible
[19:36:29] <icon> quasi: yup. ever look at java.util.Calendar? thats an ibm abomination
[19:36:41] <icon> and no, its not 100%, there are quirks
[19:36:48] <quasi> icon: no, I don't do java
[19:36:52] <trygvis> icon: you can say that it will be a different/incompatible java if forked. in particular not if they also open source TCK
[19:37:00] <quasi> icon: enough to be certified
[19:37:02] <icon> quasi: I have, for the last 10 years
[19:37:19] <alanc> it's the difference between a Sun built on 20 years of comingling sources from different owners (like all Unixes always have been) and a code base Sun built itself from the ground up - Sun has a lot more flexibility with Java sources than with Solaris sources
[19:37:22] <icon> trygvis: its still confusion
[19:37:34] <alanc> err, a code base Sun built on....
[19:37:37] <quasi> icon: anyways, the gpl choice means that we over at the asf will still be stuck with harmony ;)
[19:37:41] <icon> prime example... lets look at libc
[19:37:48] <icon> what has happened to libc over the years :)
[19:38:07] <rydis> alanc: Well, built itself buy buying companies, in some cases, no? ;)
[19:38:14] <alanc> yes
[19:38:53] <alanc> (just to be clear - I've never seen the Java sources and licenses, and don't know details beyond what's already out in public there)
[19:40:44] <icon> well
[19:40:50] <icon> does sun still own the standards?
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[19:41:53] <alanc> but at least with Java, at least everyone knows who owns the original copyrights, without a multiyear/multi-billion dollar lawsuit muddying the waters
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[19:43:47] <icon> ahh good
[19:43:50] <icon> its just an open implementation
[19:43:55] <icon> which is just dandy
[19:44:03] <icon> as long as the standards stay with sun, im happy ;)
[19:44:28] <icon> an open implementation doesnt do much other than helping out projects that cant seem to get things right to begin with
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[19:45:13] <alanc> the standards stay under the existing JCP governence
[19:45:24] <icon> ahh good
[19:45:29] <icon> thats all i was worried about
[19:45:45] <icon> i hate how viral the gpl is, but *shrug*
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[19:46:43] <gdamore> viral GPL is only a problem for folks who want to distribute a version of the JVM that is modified.
[19:47:09] <gdamore> frankly, the GPL ensures that microsoft doesn't pick up Sun's work, create some new incompatible extension, and push it out with binary only.
[19:47:36] <gdamore> of course, the standards are supposed to protect that too
[19:48:46] <sil3nt|warri0r> i chose just "system core" to install, nw how i upgrade or install other softwares like X window, browsers etc..
[19:48:54] <sil3nt|warri0r> solaris10
[19:49:22] <sahafeez> pkg_add
[19:49:28] <alanc> should have chosen "end user" - it would have saved you several hours over manually installing all that
[19:49:49] <sahafeez> or is it pkgadd. damn i wish all the os's would pic a format i can never remember which is which
[19:49:58] <alanc> pkgadd
[19:50:32] <sil3nt|warri0r> so now i have to manualy install all the softwares
[19:50:33] <sil3nt|warri0r> ??
[19:50:41] <alanc> the Sun bundled tools are pkg with no _, blastwave's pkg_get tool for Solaris is the oddball
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[19:51:57] <sil3nt|warri0r> another prob is that i have another os fedora (on 40gb hdd)
[19:52:09] <sil3nt|warri0r> i installed solaris on 80gb hdd
[19:52:22] <sil3nt|warri0r> the jumper is set to first boot from the 40gb
[19:52:29] <alanc> or put in the install CD and upgrade to "end user"
[19:52:41] <sil3nt|warri0r> first cd ??
[19:53:21] <sil3nt|warri0r> ahh k
[19:53:54] <sil3nt|warri0r> so every time i reboot my box its get booted from 80gb hdd
[19:54:15] <sil3nt|warri0r> and there is no sign of another hdd in the solaris boot screen
[19:54:26] <sil3nt|warri0r> what should i do
[19:54:47] <sil3nt|warri0r> i want grub to boot first
[19:54:58] <sil3nt|warri0r> from the 40gb
[19:56:03] <Error_404> what does sun own now?
[19:56:20] <Error_404> a couple graphics drivers & sunray server?
[19:59:38] <jamesd> directory services,  identity managment, trusted solaris 8,   to name a few
[20:00:37] <jamesd> secure global desktop
[20:01:03] <sil3nt|warri0r> anyone ??
[20:02:06] <Error_404> edit menu.lst
[20:02:09] <Error_404> *shrug*
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[20:11:19] <sil3nt|warri0r> gtg
[20:11:28] <regx> k
[20:12:15] <jbk> hmm should scp -p work if the other end of the connection is a windows box?
[20:15:30] <jbk> isn't sun's pc netlink basically nfs for windows?
[20:20:47] <Auralis> no, its smb for solaris and some more
[20:21:01] <regx> Brandz vs Xen? what do you tink
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[20:22:44] <dep> Different tools for different jobs.
[20:23:20] <dep> BrandZ = performance, ease of administration, ability to apply OpenSolaris technology (e.g. DTrace) to Linux
[20:23:39] <jbk> unfortunately, sun hasn't done a good job explaining the differences to management types
[20:24:19] <jamesd> dep, you forgot about applying  zfs as well
[20:25:16] <dep> Xen = Complete isolation/independence, domain migration, probably more (don't know Xen all that well)
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[20:26:18] <dep> I'd lump zfs in with with "OpenSolaris technology", but yeah, it's significant enough to deserve its own mention
[20:27:00] <jamesd> dep, complete administration  add another system the syadmin needs to babysit,  zones don't add the excess admin costs.
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[20:31:14] <movement> "windows" <- Xen
[20:31:37] <regx> oh wow
[20:33:30] <Kronuz> hey
[20:33:40] <Kronuz> what do you think about the UltraSPARC T1 processors ?
[20:33:47] <Kronuz> those vs the Opteron
[20:34:13] <Error_404> Kronuz: do you do floating point operations?
[20:34:19] <Kronuz> nope
[20:34:22] <Kronuz> not really
[20:34:39] <Kronuz> maybe a few, but the regular kind
[20:34:44] <Kronuz> not heavyly
[20:34:54] <Error_404> T1 sucks at floating point
[20:34:57] <Kronuz> money convertions, etc
[20:35:10] <Error_404> oh, you can turn those in to integer ops very easily
[20:35:20] <regx> how far does the opteron go on floating point?
[20:35:21] <Error_404> which apparantly T1 just slams through
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[20:35:48] <Kronuz> Error_404: but other than floating point?
[20:36:39] <Error_404> keep in mind i've not had a chance to play with one, but from what I hear it's very very nice w/ well threaded non-float code
[20:36:54] <Error_404> it's also very affordable, imo
[20:37:32] <Error_404> 2 grand or so... unless you go bottom of the barrel ( dell's 1000$ specials, or sun's 700$ x2100), it's a competitive price
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[21:01:27] <gdamore> anyone know if SXCR works under parallels?
[21:01:45] <Error_404> try it
[21:01:54] <Error_404> i've seen screenshots of it working
[21:02:41] <gdamore> cool.  one of my netbsd friends is saying it doesn't work, but maybe he doesn't have hardware VT support...
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[21:04:53] <gdamore> parallels looks cool.  it would be nice to have Solaris host support.  (I've said the same about VMWare though, though.)
[21:05:07] <axisys> anyone can tell what this error means http://www.rafb.net/paste/results/ZRnRmn24.html?
[21:05:18] <axisys> according to format that block 25332817 is not bad
[21:05:33] <axisys> however i did replace that disk couple weeks ago just in case
[21:05:46] <axisys> it is part of a raid 5 and hotspare took over now
[21:05:50] <axisys> in svm
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[21:06:59] <axisys> when i ran newfs on that disk i get the write error on sector 25332816: I/O error.. hmm.. let me try block number 25332816
[21:08:21] <axisys> hmm. format says the same for both block 25332816 and 25332817 http://www.rafb.net/paste/results/ByM7lu92.html
[21:10:29] <axisys> how do i dd the block 25332816 and 25332817 so it will never read or write to them?
[21:10:40] <axisys> dd w/th /dev/zero i meant
[21:13:13] <sil3nt|warri0r> how do i mount a vfat in solaris
[21:13:20] <sil3nt|warri0r> ^vfat partition
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[21:19:54] <jbk> axisys: have you tried doing a repair on the block?
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[21:24:31] <axisys> yeap.. http://www.rafb.net/paste/results/ByM7lu92.html
[21:26:08] <regx> uh is ANYONE familar with BrandZ?
[21:26:31] <regx> im trying to install a "zone" from CentoS and it tells me "wrong disc inserted insert disc 1"
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[21:27:31] <_william_> hi all
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[21:31:37] <boro> sil3nt|warri0r: mount -F vfat /dev/dsk/cxdxpx /mnt/somewhere
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[21:32:08] <boro> you do not mount slices, rather partition for vfat or ntfs
[21:33:45] <wilbury> vfat?
[21:35:12] <PerterB> FAT plus long filenames
[21:36:44] <wilbury> isn't it pcfs ?
[21:37:01] <boro> ;) right
[21:37:10] <boro> hehe
[21:37:12] <wilbury> boro: <sk>poriadok v hlave</sk>
[21:37:22] <boro> sometimes i get pretty mess of those unix systems mixed
[21:37:31] <boro> pravda pravda, vfat je v linuxe
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[21:46:54] <pikapika> hello
[21:47:09] <Kronuz> hi
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[21:52:22] <Kronuz> hey, would you go for a SAN or totally separated servers ?
[21:52:22] <Kronuz> when would you use a SAN vs. not using it?
[21:52:22] <Kronuz> 'cause I'm thinking I might not need a SAN
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[21:53:16] <Burana> SANs are good if you need scalable storage, or replication.
[21:53:38] <Burana> or if you have a lot of money to spend :-)
[21:53:44] <Kronuz> hehe
[21:54:10] <Kronuz> Burana: well, we can buy one (mid-range) but I was wondering... do we really need one?
[21:54:19] <Kronuz> 'cause we could use the money in something else
[21:54:25] <regx> uh can some one else get to http://www.opensolaris.org/os/community/brandz/install/
[21:54:26] <Burana> maybe you need a NAS?
[21:54:39] <Kronuz> we're planning on clustering the servers
[21:54:57] <Kronuz> Burana: the NAS was just that it could share space, right?
[21:54:59] <Burana> Kronuz: the mail, postgresql, web server?
[21:55:02] <Kronuz> (among servers)
[21:55:07] <Kronuz> Burana: yep
[21:55:16] <Kronuz> pgsql will be replicated
[21:55:23] <twincest> kronuz: as in Sun Cluster type stuff?
[21:55:29] <Kronuz> but still it doesn't make much sense to have it in the SAN
[21:55:40] <Kronuz> twincest: yep, most likely
[21:56:00] <Kronuz> it'll be for load balancing, but also availability
[21:56:03] <Burana> Kronuz: you wanted also load-balancing, didn't you?
[21:56:07] <Kronuz> yep
[21:56:22] <Kronuz> Sun Cluster provides load balancing, if I understood correctly
[21:56:24] <Burana> Kronuz: the postgresql replication will be difficult.
[21:56:37] <Kronuz> yeah, or so I've read
[21:56:44] <Kronuz> I was thinking PGCluster
[21:56:48] <Kronuz> or Slony
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[21:57:05] <Kronuz> seems PGCluster is a better solution for our needs
[21:57:24] <Burana> Kronuz: are you sure one box (or two with HA clustering) isn't sufficient?
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[22:01:06] <Kronuz> Burana: it will be sufficient but just for some time
[22:01:19] <Kronuz> we're planning a distributed system architecture
[22:01:27] <Kronuz> so we'll have several databases, not just one
[22:01:59] <Burana> do you think the problem will be on the web facing side or on the database?
[22:01:59] <Kronuz> it'll be per-application
[22:02:28] <Kronuz> most likely in both
[22:02:28] <Kronuz> I would say the database
[22:02:28] <Burana> And you have to use postgresql?
[22:02:39] <Kronuz> well, it was that or orcalg
[22:02:45] <Kronuz> but pgsql is free
[22:02:54] <Kronuz> I don't like MySQL too much
[22:03:01] <Kronuz> it has too many limitations
[22:03:37] <Burana> pgsql is ok, but I guess, without knowning the numbers, you might run into scalability problems.
[22:03:42] <Kronuz> the idea behind the cluster would be to ave everything ready to just add more servers when they're needed
[22:03:53] <Kronuz> without changing anything to the system's structure
[22:04:12] <Kronuz> that's why we want load balancing from start
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[22:04:21] <Burana> for the webfrontent check this: http://www.stdlib.net/~colmmacc/2006/03/23/niagara-vs-ftpheanetie-showdown
[22:04:24] <Kronuz> then we would just add more servers as needed
[22:04:45] <Kronuz> T2000
[22:04:54] <Kronuz> is that the other UltraSPARC T1 system?
[22:04:57] <Burana> yes
[22:05:00] <Burana> the "bigger" one...
[22:05:19] <Kronuz> we could probably get the bigger ones if we don't get the SAN
[22:05:32] <Kronuz> and after all I was thinking we might not really need a SAN
[22:05:49] <Kronuz> it's just that it's the buzz word of the decade it seems
[22:06:27] <Kronuz> ... what is the big one?
[22:06:28] <Kronuz> :P
[22:07:01] <Burana> big one means, the internal bus is faster, and 4 disks fit in.
[22:07:02] <Kronuz> what about the other UltraSPARC processors?
[22:07:10] <Kronuz> http://store.sun.com/CMTemplate/CEServlet?process=SunStore&cmdViewProduct_CP&catid=141651
[22:07:13] <Kronuz> that one?
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[22:08:12] <Burana> You can choose how many cores you want. Did you know you can try the t2000 for free (60 days). Like almost all servers now.
[22:08:18] <Burana> free delivery.
[22:08:26] <Kronuz> yeah, they told me
[22:08:33] <Kronuz> I just talked with the Sun guy
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[22:09:04] <Burana> order one, run a performance test. BTW, will you use https?
[22:09:11] <Kronuz> yep
[22:09:13] <Kronuz> https
[22:09:27] <Kronuz> I was thinking the load balancer handled the https enc/dec
[22:09:30] <regx> uh can some one else get to http://www.opensolaris.org/os/community/brandz/install/
[22:09:43] <Burana> the Niagara Chip has an integrated co-processor for SSL (RSA)
[22:09:53] <Kronuz> oh
[22:09:56] <Kronuz> really?
[22:10:07] <Burana> Yes... wait a sec...
[22:10:07] <Kronuz> Burana: that's the UltraSPARC T1 ?
[22:10:12] <Burana> Yes
[22:10:15] <Kronuz> cool
[22:10:20] <Kronuz> that sounds great!
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[22:10:38] <Kronuz> seems it's made for web servers
[22:10:38] <Burana> http://blogs.sun.com/chichang1/
[22:10:41] <Burana> see here
[22:11:00] <jamesd> its made for web applications...
[22:11:26] <Burana> It's also made for databases, that don't use too many floating point calculations.
[22:11:34] <Kronuz> that's a good thing I suppose... as I won't pay for floating point stuff which I won't be doing
[22:11:47] <Kronuz> (or other general purpose stuff I won't use)
[22:11:50] <Doc> very few ppl actually do floating point stuff - even if they think they do
[22:12:03] <Burana> Like I said. Try one, and then run some fake benchmarks.
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[22:12:39] <Kronuz> monetary operations are not considered real floating point calculus, I guess
[22:12:52] <Doc> hell no
[22:12:55] <Kronuz> hehe
[22:13:06] <Doc> unless you want your bank to think that $0.01 + $0.01 = $0.03
[22:13:08] <Kronuz> yeah, then I don't need it
[22:13:24] <Doc> (which is what floating point will probably do)
[22:13:35] <regx> is opensolaris DOWN!?
[22:13:55] <Kronuz> nooo!!! they've closed the source!!! my worse nightmare is happening!!
[22:14:10] <Doc> yup.. we released java, but took back solaris in the process
[22:14:10] <Kronuz> (or am I just being too paranoid)
[22:14:25] <Doc> it was all a ploy to confuse you in the hope you didnt notice
[22:14:26] <Kronuz> :P
[22:14:48] <rpaulo> hi
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[22:15:03] <rpaulo> I'm trying to install SX on Parallels Desktop
[22:15:04] <hspaans> g'day to all
[22:15:14] <Kronuz> has anyone tried memcached on the Niagara?
[22:15:18] <Burana> Kronuz: Do you use oracle somewhere else in you company? maybe you have a site license?
[22:15:22] <rpaulo> it says that it can't find the window software or the installer when I try to install via console
[22:15:27] <rpaulo> anyone had that problem?
[22:15:30] <Kronuz> Burana: nope, why?
[22:15:34] * jmcp heads off to Beijing
[22:15:37] <jmcp> ciaociao!
[22:15:43] <hspaans> bye jmcp
[22:15:44] <Kronuz> hi jmcp!
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[22:15:58] <Burana> Kronuz: for scalability I would take oracle. but it might be too expensive...
[22:16:05] <Kronuz> Beijing! o_O
[22:16:15] <Kronuz> Burana: yeah, it is :S
[22:16:39] <Kronuz> pgsql shouldn't be as bad... specially planning from start to distribute the database at the application level
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[22:16:55] <delewis> PostgreSQL has no support for partitioning
[22:17:02] <delewis> therefore it should not even be a contestant if you want scalability.
[22:17:04] <Kronuz> not natively
[22:17:18] <Kronuz> but you can architect for it at the application level
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[22:17:48] <sahafeez> rpaulo yes. i have that issue
[22:18:03] <Burana> I think, if you really want pgsql, then you should take the biggest box you can get for your many, for the backend.
[22:18:10] <sahafeez> have not found out why yet. from dvd or cd. b51
[22:18:13] <Burana> s/many/money
[22:18:20] <rpaulo> yes
[22:18:26] <rpaulo> same version
[22:18:31] <Stric> delewis: 8.1 has support for placing tables wherever you want them
[22:18:36] <hspaans> delewis: http://www.postgresql.org/docs/8.1/interactive/ddl-partitioning.html <-- maybe not perfect yet ;-)
[22:18:40] <rpaulo> have you tried sxcr?
[22:19:39] <Kronuz> Burana: about how much is a site license from oracle? it should be way too expensive, I'm sure
[22:19:54] <Auralis> a site license from oracle? muhahahaha
[22:19:56] <delewis> hspaans: the pgsql developers that were working on partitioning support stopped working on it
[22:20:01] <delewis> nobody has taken it up since
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[22:20:23] <Stric> oh, you mean like raid0 in the database..
[22:20:29] <delewis> Stric: that is not partitioning
[22:20:38] <delewis> that is tablespaces
[22:20:42] <delewis> completely different
[22:20:43] <hspaans> delewis: ieks
[22:21:06] <delewis> Stric: distributed database is more like it
[22:21:18] <delewis> this is what DB2 and Oracle RAC do
[22:21:31] <Kronuz> yeah, RAC
[22:21:49] <Stric> and that is why DB2 comes with like 100 cds of documentation too :P
[22:21:56] <hspaans> delewis: also not command prompt?
[22:22:08] <Doc> RAC is to clusters what Daewoo is to sports cars
[22:22:13] <Kronuz> I don't know but I'd guess oracle is way too expensive for our budget (most likely for any budget) :P
[22:23:26] <Kronuz> what's that about the System Performance Packs for the Sun systems?
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[22:27:44] <Burana> Don't know about the Site license. But: $$$
[22:28:16] <Kronuz> yeah, it's just unacceptable (even to think about it) ^_^
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[22:29:02] <Kronuz> wow the Niagara benchmarks look great!
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[22:32:18] <hspaans> which benchmarks?
[22:32:24] <Kronuz> http://www.stdlib.net/~colmmacc/2006/03/23/niagara-vs-ftpheanetie-showdown
[22:32:53] <Gman> richlowe, you were right, joerg had a reply ;)
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[22:33:24] <Burana> what reply from joerg?
[22:35:06] <hspaans> Kronuz: please do not forget its also an OS/machine benchmark
[22:35:29] <Kronuz> hspaans: what do you mean ?? o_O
[22:35:45] <Gman> Burana, gpl thread on opensolaris-discuss
[22:36:21] <Burana> kronuz: running any other os than solaris/opensolaris will not be tolerated :P
[22:36:44] <Kronuz> Burana: ??
[22:36:55] <Burana> kronuz: I mean on the niagara :-)
[22:36:59] <Kronuz> I'll be running Solaris, that's the whole point
[22:37:10] <Burana> kronuz: you can run ubuntu also
[22:37:11] <Kronuz> I wouldn't be runnin ganything else, why would I?
[22:37:14] <Kronuz> :P
[22:37:24] <boyd> Morning, all... well I see it all happened as planned
[22:37:31] <Kronuz> I totally dislike loonix
[22:37:36] <Burana> gman: ok. thought on heise.de
[22:37:47] <Kronuz> I'd be running a BSD system in the worse case scenario
[22:37:48] <hspaans> Kronuz: it would be nice if the test was with sol10 on the T1 and an Opteron
[22:37:57] <Kronuz> (that's why I'm moving away from IBM systems ;)
[22:38:41] <mrdeviant> is there an estimate for when www.opensolaris.org will be back up ?
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[22:39:07] <Kronuz> also I like that about MUA unit in the cores
[22:39:12] <Kronuz> MAU*
[22:41:00] <Burana> you have to compile the software using solaris provided openssl...
[22:41:00] <Kronuz> that's not a problem ;)
[22:41:00] <Burana> then the MAU will be used automatically
[22:41:00] <Kronuz> I'm starting to love Solaris and Sun
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[22:41:00] <Kronuz> if they only had better sale reps.
[22:41:00] <Burana> That's true
[22:41:01] <hspaans> Kronuz: ask for others ;-)
[22:41:01] <Burana> But I don't need them anymore
[22:41:12] <Kronuz> how's the support service?
[22:41:17] <Kronuz> 'cause sales suck
[22:41:24] <Kronuz> (to be honest)
[22:41:25] <Burana> kronuz: never had any better support than from sun
[22:41:32] <Gman> hey sch0
[22:41:38] <Kronuz> hmm
[22:41:45] <sch0> hey Gman; looking for stevel
[22:41:55] <Kronuz> Burana: I hope so... their sales team just is unacceptable
[22:41:55] <Auralis> sun support is great and ell worth the money
[22:42:07] <Auralis> for sales, best is to get to know the local reseller
[22:42:08] <Gman> sch0: yeah, me too - haven't seen him since last week
[22:42:10] <sch0> seen him?
[22:42:11] <Kronuz> "unacceptable" is my word of the week ^_^
[22:42:14] <sch0> ok
[22:42:26] <Kronuz> (sounds acceptable?)
[22:42:31] <Kronuz> lol
[22:42:39] <Gman> sch0, he's been online, but not talking
[22:47:23] <Kronuz> wow $4,000,000 !! (the E25K)
[22:47:43] <regx> wtf why is www.opensolaris.com down?
[22:47:44] <hspaans> ow that are dollars ;-)
[22:47:46] <regx> *org
[22:48:05] <g4lt-mordant> Kronuz, cheap at half the price
[22:48:24] <Kronuz> g4lt-mordant: yeah, really cheap! :P
[22:48:37] <Kronuz> I'll just get two of those
[22:48:46] <Kronuz> ROTFL
[22:48:51] <Gman> regx, hopefully temporary - currently being worked upon
[22:48:59] <regx> ah ok
[22:49:04] <regx> im stuck now
[22:49:06] <mrdeviant> it's always down
[22:49:23] <Kronuz> hey other than those T1000 and T2000, what other servers are good for web and database?
[22:49:38] <delewis> Kronuz: anything with a load of processors, obviously.
[22:49:43] <Kronuz> (please don't say the E2?K) ^_^
[22:49:53] <boyd> I heard it's down as part of the transition to running it on Vista
[22:49:53] <Burana> E15K? :-)
[22:49:54] <delewis> any of the 4 to 8-way mid-range systems should be adequate.
[22:49:57] <Kronuz> lol
[22:50:36] <hspaans> Kronuz: v245 are also nice
[22:50:37] <Kronuz> what's with the V125
[22:50:37] <Kronuz> yeah
[22:50:37] <Kronuz> bout those
[22:50:42] <Kronuz> or the V490
[22:50:44] <Burana> Kronuz: Do you want to make nuclear simulations or why do you need such powerful systems?
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[22:51:02] <Kronuz> not really, tha't why I'm asking for web and database
[22:51:10] <Kronuz> what'w the next thing beyond the T2000
[22:51:28] <Burana> Two T2000's :-)
[22:51:29] <hspaans> x4200
[22:51:59] <Kronuz> hspaans: for what I've seen probably yhe T2000 is better
[22:52:02] <hspaans> but don't buy anything with less then two power supplies
[22:52:15] <Kronuz> yep
[22:52:23] <Kronuz> redundant everything, that's my moto
[22:52:25] <Kronuz> lol
[22:52:28] <hspaans> Kronuz: x4200 has better sucking powers
[22:52:35] <Kronuz> hehe
[22:52:55] <elektronkind> Unless you need > 4 SAS disks or more PCI slots, get a X4100
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[22:53:29] <delewis> I wouldn't make disks a criterion.
[22:53:30] <elektronkind> on basis of CPU count and memory max, it's the same
[22:53:35] <delewis> you can always attach external storage
[22:53:37] <boyd> X4200: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MpOrdJ5kmfY
[22:53:37] <Kronuz> honestly, I don't know why anyone would want to get x64 systems for web with all the goodies the Niagara offer
[22:53:38] <hspaans> Kronuz: I dear to say the t2000 is slower
[22:53:41] <delewis> (which is what you should be doing, anyway)
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[22:54:05] <sommerfeld> hspaans: depends on the workload
[22:54:26] <Kronuz> I'de say depends on the usage, but for websites those benchmarks show a big difference
[22:54:40] <Kronuz> price/performance that is
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[22:54:53] <Kronuz> delewis: external storage like which one?
[22:54:57] <alanc> website-discuss mail just came through saying www.os.o should be back up in about 10 minutes
[22:55:01] <Kronuz> delewis: you mean a SAN or something else?
[22:55:06] <delewis> Kronuz: yes
[22:55:27] <hspaans> sommerfeld: you are correct. the advantage is that the T1 has multiple cores and threads
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[22:55:36] <Kronuz> that's the nighmare of the moment: to buy or not to buy... a SAN
[22:55:44] <Kronuz> "who really needs it"
[22:55:59] <Kronuz> I was thinking I maybe don't really need it
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[22:56:01] <hspaans> why not Kronuz ?
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[22:56:17] <boyd> Anyone seen the webcast?
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[22:56:43] <boyd> Am I missing anything by refusing to use the ludicrous adware that is readlplayer?
[22:56:48] <boyd> err realplayer
[22:57:17] <Kronuz> hspaans: what for? (if you hardly share any information among servers)
[22:57:41] <Kronuz> it's not like you can boot from the same volume or anything (you still have to have rplicated volumes)
[22:57:54] <lplatypus> I can't get over how much more SANs cost than direct attached storage... the flexibility of a SAN is nice, but is it that nice?
[22:58:07] <AbeFroman> yes
[22:58:12] <hspaans> lplatypus: its nice
[22:58:17] <Kronuz> I'd say it depends
[22:58:25] <lplatypus> depends on what you're doing i gues
[22:58:28] <Kronuz> on what you're using it for
[22:58:30] <Kronuz> yes
[22:58:49] <Kronuz> that's why I'm thinking: "hey, I don't really need it"
[22:58:53] <Kronuz> or do I?
[22:58:55] <hspaans> lplatypus: ordering 1.2TB and getting it without leaving your seat is very nice ;-)
[22:59:22] <hspaans> gives me more time for browsing
[23:00:29] <Kronuz> why is it that the "Sun Fire T1000 Server - Sun System Performance Packs" are cheaper than the just "Sun Fire T1000 Server" if the former ones have support and installation included?
[23:02:02] <Kronuz> hey, how good dicounts can you get from Sun (over the prices in their page) ? you know? I mean how far can I push them, so to speak? :P
[23:02:40] <boyd> I think I read about somebody paying list once.
[23:02:52] <Kronuz> O_O
[23:02:58] <Kronuz> lol
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[23:03:30] <g4lt-mordant> boyd, yeah, you're missing not being able to use helixplayer ;P
[23:03:58] <boyd> g4lt-mordant: Good point... but is there a browser plugin? For Macos?
[23:04:01] <lplatypus> how can I not pay list for an ultra 20 if purchasing it for home?
[23:04:05] <Burana> kronuz: what amound of data are we talking about?
[23:04:10] <Burana> s/amound/amount
[23:04:19] <Burana> <-tired
[23:04:30] <boyd> lplatypus: Well, for lower end machines to individuals I think it's different
[23:04:51] <Kronuz> Burana: at the most 500 GB in the file server
[23:04:56] <lplatypus> oh well
[23:05:04] <alanc> umm, you could get a discount if you work for Sun, or if you can qualify for either the startup or developer discount programs
[23:05:06] <Kronuz> about 20GB for the database
[23:05:18] <boyd> alanc: Student maybe?
[23:05:33] <Kronuz> alanc: startup programs?
[23:05:35] <boyd> ... partner
[23:05:52] <alanc> I don't remember if we have student discounts on hardware - schools certainly get discounts
[23:06:26] <hspaans> alanc: you can get a workstation if you code on gnome
[23:06:29] <Kronuz> but I mean list price is not the real price, is it? I mean I'm sure they lower the price at least 10-15%
[23:06:36] <Kronuz> won't they?
[23:06:57] <Burana> kronuz: is it planed to use the san for other projects as well? otherwise a SAN is too much...
[23:07:08] <jbk> well just like most sales, there's room for negotiation
[23:07:17] <Kronuz> Burana: nah, not really... not now at least
[23:07:34] <hspaans> Kronuz: is a 3510 not an option?
[23:07:40] <Kronuz> jbk: yeah, that's what I meant... how much can you push them
[23:07:52] <Burana> Kronuz: otherwise other projects could pay also part of the san
[23:08:01] <jbk> well it probably depends
[23:08:13] <alanc> http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/When/200x/2006/11/02/Startup-Essentials has links to the startup discounts
[23:08:31] <Kronuz> alanc: cool, thanks :)
[23:08:45] <jbk> i'm guessing for every model there's probably a various range the sales guys can go, and if you want to go beyond that, probably requires more permission from the higher ups
[23:10:40] <Kronuz> (I'm totally buying this whole Sun servers thing :P)
[23:11:08] <rpaulo> what happened to opensolaris.org? :(
[23:11:25] <estibi> hi, do you know where will be snv52 build ?
[23:11:39] <Kronuz> rpaulo: sadly, it died :-(
[23:12:12] <rpaulo> damn it, I needed to see a topic on solaris and parallels instalation at the forums...
[23:12:12] <Kronuz> rpaulo: no, not really, I'm not sure... hehe
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[23:20:20] <gisburn> What's wrong with bugs.opensolaris.org ?
[23:20:32] <delewis> gisburn: check opensolaris-discuss
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[23:20:38] * gisburn is getting a "connection reset"
[23:20:39] <delewis> opensolaris.org is down and failover machine failed as well
[23:21:01] <gisburn> ahhgggrlll
[23:21:15] <gisburn> delewis: java GPLv2 attack ?
[23:21:26] <delewis> gisburn: I don't think so
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[23:21:36] <gisburn> delewis: e.g. did someone link opensolaris.org in the java gpl press release ?
[23:21:55] <Tpenta> why do you ask?
[23:22:08] <Tpenta> my blog would have shown up on os.org, and i did an entry on it
[23:22:22] <Tpenta> stevel: b52? I had the bins ready on friday
[23:22:36] <gisburn> Tpenta: I've found a nice C99-related putback blocker in the size of a "king kong"-eating flying spaghetti monster with two extra claws...
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[23:24:01] <gisburn> This increases the bugs we found in solaris to 38.
[23:24:03] <mrdeviant> does os.org run on a t2k ?
[23:24:38] <sparc-kly_> http://content.ytmnd.com/content/d/6/f/d6f463cf8700363fa91c20b342722f62.gif | safe for Work |
[23:25:38] <alanc> hopefully you're keeping # of bugs fixed in Solaris as close as possible to # of bugs found in Solaris, and keeping both higher than # of bugs you're introducing to Solaris
[23:26:41] * gisburn just sees # and no longer the trees.
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[23:27:03] <sickness> lol
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[23:27:19] <gisburn> sparc-kly_: castro ?
[23:27:42] <sparc-kly_> gisburn : yes lol
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[23:57:32] <sahafeez> is it just me or is seeing rms saying good things about sun on video give you the creeps
[23:58:22] <sickness> eheh
[23:59:19] <dlg> rms is insane
[23:59:26] <sickness> I'd wait to creep until microsoft releases OpenVISTA under gpl :P
[23:59:35] *** sil3nt|warri0r has joined #opensolaris
[23:59:40] * gisburn suggests the Steyr AMD solution for rms
[23:59:55] 





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