August 31, 2012 
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mulant15 has quit IRC[05:32:48] *** classix has quit IRC[05:37:24] *** tsukasa has quit IRC[05:41:07] *** ocherno has quit IRC[05:41:26] *** mulant15 has joined #openindiana[05:52:58] *** imaxs has joined #openindiana[06:17:47] *** jamesd has quit IRC[06:26:10] *** kart_ has quit IRC[06:30:48] *** ianj has quit IRC[06:47:40] *** jw_urodoc has joined #openindiana[06:48:28] *** jw_urodoc has quit IRC[07:13:38] *** ianj has joined #openindiana[07:15:51] *** kart_ has joined #openindiana[07:23:13] *** ianj has quit IRC[07:30:05] *** ianj has joined #openindiana[07:41:22] *** spurkis has quit IRC[07:41:50] *** spurkis has joined #openindiana[07:46:12] *** Webhostbudd has joined #openindiana[08:03:39] *** PhoenixMage1 has quit IRC[08:11:32] *** PhoenixMage has joined #openindiana[08:23:19] *** khalfella has joined #openindiana[08:24:01] <khalfella> dears, I am asking about openindiana support for sleep mode, I want to install in my laptop[08:25:09] <khalfella> do you think I should ask this is illumos?[08:25:47] *** kart_ has quit IRC[08:25:49] <khalfella> I mean ask this question in illumos room?[08:29:51] *** ivo_ has joined #openindiana[08:30:08] *** kart_ has joined #openindiana[08:40:23] *** merzo_ has joined #openindiana[08:57:30] *** |AbsyntH| has joined #openindiana[09:02:53] *** andy_js has joined #openindiana[09:04:26] *** ivo_ has quit IRC[09:09:55] *** Micr0mega has joined #openindiana[09:11:29] *** Micr0mega has left #openindiana[09:12:01] *** kart_ has quit IRC[09:12:34] *** Micr0mega has joined #openindiana[09:13:50] *** kart_ has joined #openindiana[09:17:16] *** v12 has joined #openindiana[09:23:51] <Okona> first look in the man page for power.conf[09:24:21] <Okona> then that might be helpful too http://constantin.glez.de/blog/2010/03/opensolaris-home-server-scripting-2-setting-power-management[09:24:33] <Okona> but I would not guarantee, that it will work.[09:28:58] <khalfella> thanks, I will[09:30:49] *** tsoome has quit IRC[09:35:25] *** kart_ has quit IRC[09:37:02] *** anikin has joined #openindiana[09:37:03] *** v12 has quit IRC[09:40:59] *** Worsoe has joined #openindiana[09:42:32] *** kart_ has joined #openindiana[09:45:27] *** keremet has joined #openindiana[09:55:43] *** kartomartin has joined #openindiana[09:58:59] *** tsoome has joined #openindiana[10:00:32] *** ivo_ has joined #openindiana[10:00:42] <trochej> Coffee?[10:02:03] <tsoome> coffee:P[10:03:34] *** ivo_ has quit IRC[10:05:03] <lblume> Yes.[10:10:15] <ancoron_w> Coffee![10:10:19] <phin> 7beer![10:10:27] <phin> 7 beers[10:10:29] <phin> that works too[10:10:39] <ancoron_w> ...in the morning?[10:10:55] <phin> i work nights[10:10:58] <phin> still up[10:11:37] <ancoron_w> ah OK - then it's fine. :-) Although I prefer a good bottle of red wine.[10:17:19] <phin> i live in a pretty solid beer area. lots of good locals.[10:17:50] <phin> i take it you are an OI user?[10:18:38] *** khalfella has quit IRC[10:18:54] *** KermitTheFragger has joined #openindiana[10:19:44] *** voidcoder has quit IRC[10:20:37] * Okona also prefers Red Wine, that is, I don't drink beer...[10:21:31] <ancoron_w> Yes, but to get work done I still use Kubuntu - for the server-side I am about to consider Illumian - I just like debian packaging ;-)[10:22:41] *** khalfella has joined #openindiana[10:22:51] <phin> ya[10:22:56] <phin> i was hoping to use it more[10:22:59] *** DerSaidi1 is now known as DerSaidin[10:23:17] *** DerSaidin has joined #openindiana[10:23:42] <phin> i was trying to set it up as a zfs server in a kvm[10:23:55] <phin> but it wouldnt read things right from the virtio driver[10:24:26] <phin> and i personally do not have a vt-d enabled bios to just pass a side sata controller over to it to let the os install[10:24:43] <phin> so im stuck just watching for now and playing with zfs over freenas[10:25:02] *** kartomartin has quit IRC[10:25:57] *** Webhostbudd has quit IRC[10:26:13] <ancoron_w> hm, my experience is (with AMD-V) not "that" bad. Just plugged in some drives in AHCI mode and things went pretty fine, although performance is horrible, of course.[10:26:32] <phin> ya[10:26:42] <phin> i hear the virtio driver for oi sucks[10:26:56] <phin> but i wonder how i could just pass a controller over[10:27:07] <phin> and see if that lets the os directly control the drives[10:27:38] <ancoron_w> Yes, because there is not much man-power behind it - passing a controller should be pretty easy. Do you use the python virt-manager GUI tool?[10:27:48] <phin> ya[10:28:08] <phin> my current chipset currently doesnt support vt-d[10:28:14] <phin> so im sort've stuck[10:28:27] <phin> its an intel blackford[10:28:34] <phin> only vt-X[10:28:50] <phin> so no direct pci forwarding[10:28:52] <phin> just usb[10:29:13] <ancoron_w> ^^ well, I think in that case you're stuck with emulation[10:29:24] *** rfc2474 has joined #openindiana[10:29:30] <ancoron_w> No money for a CPU/MB upgrade?[10:29:44] <phin> yes and no[10:30:38] <phin> looking to just get a 5400 mobo[10:30:42] *** kart_ has quit IRC[10:30:58] <phin> since i alrady have the cpus and a bit of memory[10:31:27] <ancoron_w> Hm, I'm a pure AMD user and too bad I just gave my last stuff to a friend of mine.[10:31:38] <phin> no biggy[10:31:46] <phin> i actually use amd stuff[10:31:54] <phin> i should go back to it on the server[10:32:02] <rfc2474> the newest features in SmartOS and other most cutting edge Solaris kernel stuff only works on Intel not AMD :-([10:32:09] <phin> the chips came free from an intel friend[10:32:19] <rfc2474> phin: you know that Intel funds Joyent and that Joyent is a major developer of the IllumOS kernel right?[10:32:23] *** kart_ has joined #openindiana[10:32:31] <phin> yes i have read that[10:32:52] <phin> i'll see what happens in the next few momths[10:32:54] <phin> months[10:33:07] <rfc2474> it's good though that we have participation from Intel's engineering team, it gives IllumOS (OpenSolaris) some well deserved advantages[10:33:21] <rfc2474> but to get those advantages you have to buy the CPU's[10:33:24] <rfc2474> from Intel[10:33:38] <ancoron_w> So, in the end it's not very "open"?[10:33:44] <rfc2474> no it is open[10:33:47] <rfc2474> very open[10:33:48] <ancoron_w> sort of[10:33:50] <rfc2474> the code is all open[10:33:53] <phin> heh[10:33:54] <rfc2474> no 100% open you're wrong[10:34:12] *** khalfella has quit IRC[10:34:19] <rfc2474> there are features specific to Intel CPU's that are implemented in the hardware and Linux and Solaris and BSD have code now to take advantage of those features[10:34:22] <rfc2474> how is that not open?[10:34:25] <tsoome> who gives shit?[10:34:47] <rfc2474> if you can open the code and read it, it's open[10:34:58] <rfc2474> I have a friend who works for AMD, and the problem is AMD is dropping the ball[10:35:02] <tsoome> you cant use linux code in solaris, you can read it, but its not open[10:35:10] <rfc2474> the problem is with AMD being Slackers, there is no problem with Intel[10:35:20] <rfc2474> how many AMD developers contribute code to IllumOS?[10:35:36] <rfc2474> * meant to say how many AMD engineers contribute code to IllumOS?[10:36:09] <ancoron_w> I don't like hardware lock-in, so I try to use alternatives, that's all[10:36:31] <rfc2474> ancoron_w: why don't you complain to AMD and tell them to get off their lazy asses? I've already been complaining[10:36:50] <rfc2474> ancoron_w: tell AMD to send some developers / engineers to contribute code to IllumOS like Intel does[10:36:56] <ancoron_w> rfc2474: I really don't wanted to start a rant here - take it easy :-)[10:37:08] <trochej> Coffee people[10:37:10] <trochej> And peace[10:37:13] <trochej> Not piss[10:37:14] <ancoron_w> ^^ agreed[10:37:27] <lblume> trochej: With more coffee, you will get both :-P[10:37:32] <rfc2474> ancoron_w: I'm just saying, how does it make IllumOS less open if Intel has engineers contribute patches to the code that make things run faster / better on their hardware?[10:38:05] <trochej> Sow hat I'd like to know, is there anything breweing for OI now, are are we all still in shock over Alasdiarr reclaiming his freedom?[10:38:29] <rfc2474> ATI graphics card support in many opensource operating systems was weak because AMD / ATI were slackers, I say this and my best friend from college is an engineer who works for AMD writing drivers now[10:38:47] <rfc2474> trochej: what do you mean by "Alasdiarr reclaiming his freedom" ?[10:39:53] <rfc2474> trochej: can you provide more info? I'm out of touch with the latest happenings in OpenIndiana[10:39:54] <trochej> rfc2474: He stepped down as OI lead. I guess now he gets less stress, more time and probably more real life friends.[10:40:24] <rfc2474> yeah, I know a lot of people who would love to code for OI full time but they have financial / money problems that don't allow it[10:40:33] <rfc2474> it's a great operating system, I like it much better than Linux[10:40:41] <trochej> It surely is a sad moment, but I think he went with it much longer thaty any person should, for their own sanity[10:41:42] <lblume> Too many expectations shifted to OI after Oracle closed the door.[10:42:06] *** kart_ has quit IRC[10:42:19] <ancoron_w> lblume: totally correct[10:42:29] <rfc2474> actually, damnit, I'll go ahead and say it, IllumOS / OI is the *best* operating system in my humble opinion, the only issue with the project from day one (back in SXDE / OpenSolaris 2008.05 days) was a lack of available ported software and a lack of support from I.S.V.'s (e.g. Adobe, Cisco, Apple, etc. etc.)[10:42:29] <trochej> Yup[10:42:58] <trochej> To cahnge it, Oi would have to gain a lots of attention on desktop.[10:43:01] <rfc2474> but from a purely "operating system" perspective (i.e. not looking at all at what kind of software a typical user might or might not want to run) OI is the best[10:43:21] <rfc2474> the problem is not attention or lack thereof, the problem is money[10:43:26] <rfc2474> developers are people and people have bills to pay[10:43:35] *** kart_ has joined #openindiana[10:44:03] <lblume> Too bad that for the majority of people, the kind of software a user wants is actually part of an OS in the 21st century.[10:44:30] <rfc2474> do you guys remember the Japanese OpenSolaris distro, "Jaris"[10:44:41] <rfc2474> that thing was the most desktop friendly OpenSolaris based distro ever[10:45:25] <rfc2474> it came with Wine pre-installed and you could just pop in a CD for some Micro$oft Windows proprietary windows software, click your mouse a few times and you were running Microsoft Visio or whatever other stupid Microsoft app people want to use[10:45:45] <rfc2474> completely seamless for the end user moving from Windows to Jaris in that respect[10:45:53] <trochej> OI can have that too[10:46:00] <trochej> But it needs developers[10:46:01] <trochej> :)[10:46:02] <rfc2474> oh yeah[10:46:04] <rfc2474> exactly[10:46:10] <tsoome> meh, so why on earth did you install it if you were still using microsoft apps?![10:46:11] <rfc2474> developers who have free time on their hands[10:46:33] <rfc2474> tsoome: I don't know what your job role is, but some people require Cisco and MS apps for their job role[10:47:00] <rfc2474> tsoome: e.g. no Cisco and MS apps, no job, no food, starve to death and die eventually from lack of food[10:47:11] <trochej> But hey, this is supposed to be community project[10:47:20] <trochej> So let us see if it really has community :)[10:47:20] <tsoome> if i need to use those apps, why i should install OI as desktop?[10:47:21] <rfc2474> right Wine is a community project and it runs MS apps[10:47:42] <trochej> rfc2474: Free time or being paid for working on OI[10:47:44] <rfc2474> you would run OI as a desktop because ZFS snapshots and other features make managing the desktop more efficient and easy[10:47:56] <rfc2474> trochej: both free time and being paid for working on OI[10:48:08] <ancoron_w> are there any IllumOS/OI-sponsoring companies in germany?[10:48:18] <tsoome> I have been using osx as desktop since 2006 and i do not miss zfs snapshots[10:48:26] <tsoome> as desktop user, i mean[10:48:30] <rfc2474> ancoron_w: wohnen Sie in Deutschland?[10:48:42] <ancoron_w> rfc2474: Ja, Berlin[10:48:52] *** kart_ has quit IRC[10:49:19] <rfc2474> tsoome: I break things a lot of times tweaking at a low level as part of dayjob and I need ZFS to be able to fix them quickly so I can get back to work[10:49:53] <phin> osx is solid[10:50:07] <rfc2474> phin: solidly full of security holes :-)[10:50:21] *** khalfella has joined #openindiana[10:50:28] <trochej> As is probably illumos, just nobody gives a shit about exploiting it yet :)[10:50:30] <phin> as is any full desktop os[10:50:33] <rfc2474> phin: and running on over-priced hardware that is difficult to take apart and make modifications to[10:50:40] <tsoome> you can use any backup scheme for that as long as its decently integrated with your UI[10:50:44] <phin> i run hackintosh[10:50:45] <phin> :P[10:50:52] <trochej> People[10:50:55] <trochej> Please[10:50:57] *** kart_ has joined #openindiana[10:50:57] *** PhoenixMage has quit IRC[10:51:01] <phin> stable for the last 7 months[10:51:03] <phin> love it[10:51:13] <trochej> your desktop prefference is your private thing, even more than your sexual preference[10:51:20] <phin> lol[10:51:26] <phin> it is seemingly so[10:51:36] <rfc2474> trochej: my desktop preference is still OpenIndiana / IllumOS / OpenSolaris[10:51:47] <trochej> Cool, mine too.[10:51:51] <phin> what ui?[10:51:52] <trochej> But it's mine[10:51:53] <Okona> I plan to use a rayserver on my OI Fileserver[10:52:01] <trochej> phin: xterm :)[10:52:07] <tsoome> phin: exactly;)[10:52:10] <phin> nice[10:52:18] <rfc2474> anyway, the important thing to realize is that money and ISV / IHV support is what makes operating systems live or die[10:52:22] <phin> you never browse or anything?[10:52:43] <trochej> But this is whatb rallied me in garrett's mails - he interposes his own love for Macs onto everyone else, presuming wrongly that everyone expect the same from their operating system[10:52:46] <rfc2474> so when a hardware vendor like Intel throws some money at the community, we should applaud it and then ask AMD why they aren't also throwing money at us :-P[10:52:56] <rfc2474> which is why I called AMD slackers[10:53:16] <trochej> Don't[10:53:25] <trochej> They ahve their reasons not to[10:53:25] <rfc2474> well what has AMD done for us?[10:53:31] <rfc2474> which are?[10:53:37] <tsoome> amd has bigger issues to solve atm than writing some lines of code for opensource community[10:53:44] <trochej> You may disagree, you may not like them, but it is their decision.[10:53:52] <rfc2474> AMD will continue to lose marketshare as long as they ignore open source[10:53:58] <rfc2474> it's inevitable[10:54:09] <tsoome> opensource has nothing to do it[10:54:11] *** Whoopsie has joined #openindiana[10:54:12] *** ChanServ sets mode: +v Whoopsie[10:54:18] <trochej> One thing I've learnt in military is to have respect for everyone else and respect their decisions.[10:54:23] <rfc2474> tsoome: what does have to do with it?[10:54:24] <tsoome> they have no hardware, plain and simple.[10:54:28] <trochej> Even if you dislike them.[10:54:34] <rfc2474> trochej: what military were you in? somewhere in Eastern Europe maybe?[10:54:39] <trochej> Because most of times you don;t know everything that influenced them[10:54:57] <tsoome> they have done very well in past, but just now they are nothing.[10:55:07] <trochej> And this philosophy actually is pretty good for all other aspects of your life[10:55:12] *** PrestelPirate has joined #openindiana[10:55:32] <lblume> Shouldn't we thank AMD for having a 64 bit OI in the first place? Or would you like to have an Itanium version by now instead?[10:56:01] <rfc2474> AMD could hire a programmer in the Phillipines or India to contribute code to IllumOS for $5 USD a day and it would be something, some kind of contribution, which is better than nothing / no contribution[10:56:06] <lblume> What AMD has *already* done for Solaris is not exactly small, for those with memories that span more than the last week.[10:56:07] *** kart_ has quit IRC[10:56:16] <rfc2474> even if it's a minor contribution, it's still better than nothing[10:56:51] <rfc2474> lblume: what did AMD do for Solaris back in the day? I would like to hear the story[10:57:04] <rfc2474> lblume: I'm not always the best informed person[10:57:17] <tsoome> and how it would save amd? how it will make average joe (who has heard *nothing* about OI) to buy amd cpu?[10:57:49] <lblume> They contributed GCC code so Solaris 10 could be built on 64 bit. They were Sun's major partner for their coming back to the x86 world. Sun and Intel were at each other's throat at the time. Without AMD, there would be no OI at all.[10:58:02] *** kart_ has joined #openindiana[10:58:39] *** Whoopsie has quit IRC[10:58:46] <tsoome> lblume: meh?[10:59:22] <rfc2474> tsoome: average joe isn't even relevant, the higher profit margins are on servers, a lot of servers run Linux, BSD and Solaris, Intel understands this which is why they are proactive- Intel is the #1 contributor of source code to the Linux kernel (more than Red Hat or IBM or Oracle or anyone else) and Intel also has people paid to be involved in the FreeBSD community to make sure that things work well there[10:59:35] <rfc2474> and they are currently involved in IllumOS and they are a VC funding provider for Joyent[10:59:41] <rfc2474> lblume: touche, that's a good point[10:59:50] * rfc2474 thanks AMD for helping Solaris 10 build on 64 bit[11:00:00] <lblume> tsoome: Sorry to sum it up so quickly, but I have a meeting coming, cant detail more atm ;-)[11:00:13] <rfc2474> lblume: no it's a good one line summary[11:00:19] <tsoome> solaris is built with sunpro cc, not by gcc. just you may wanna know that...[11:00:42] <rfc2474> tsoome: heh, good one, I forgot about that[11:01:14] <lblume> tsoome: For a good while, S10's kernel was built with GCC3 w/ the 64 bit code from AMD. The few first years.[11:01:22] <lblume> not exactly nothing.[11:02:12] <rfc2474> I just remember that from back in like 2008-ish or so[11:02:13] <lblume> Because at the time, well, Studio was just not doing x64 code at all.[11:02:32] <lblume> So there. Think about that people. Meeting time for me.[11:02:41] <rfc2474> it seemed like Nvidia and Intel were very proactive in regards to making sure their stuff worked well with OpenSolaris 2008.05 while AMD was like a deadbeat dad[11:02:46] <rfc2474> absentee father[11:04:09] <rfc2474> anyway, remember that the concern is not selling to "Average Joe on the stree" the concern is with selling to actual businesses (that make lots of money and therefore have lots of money to spend)[11:04:27] *** imaxs has quit IRC[11:04:55] <rfc2474> it doesn't matter to AMD if Joe on the street buys a single AMD CPU or not[11:05:19] <tsoome> why on street?[11:05:22] <rfc2474> but if a large hardware vendor like HP or Oracle or IBM or Fujitsu etc. etc. wants to sell millions of servers with Linux or Solaris pre-installed[11:05:47] <rfc2474> then they are going to look at- how active is AMD in the community for this operating system? how well is their hardware supported? turns out often it's not as well supported as Intel[11:05:58] <tsoome> there are loads of "server" joes around who havent even heard of solaris, not to mention OI[11:06:15] <rfc2474> I'm talking about the use case of a chip manufacturer wanting to sell chips[11:06:58] <rfc2474> and someone up there ^^ was talking about whether person x buys an AMD CPU or not, and my point is that person x is not as relevant as "Large Multinational Hardware Vendor who sells millions of servers a year Y"[11:07:57] *** kart_ has quit IRC[11:08:10] <rfc2474> Intel understands the second part and as a result they make more money in revenue selling chips to large server hardware vendors and that in turn gives them more money in the bank to spend on research and development to develop faster and better integrated circuits[11:08:17] <rfc2474> it's like a snowball rolling downhill[11:08:40] <rfc2474> It seems nowadays, that AMD just rolls over and dies without even making the tiniest amount of effort to get the snowball rolling[11:09:51] <rfc2474> other vendors like Cisco and Juniper use code from opensource projects (Linux and FreeBSD) in their products[11:10:26] <rfc2474> don't know if they still are but Juniper routers were using Intel chips for the longest time, maybe this is because their routing software is based on FreeBSD and Intel contributes so much code and resources to FreeBSD?[11:10:45] <rfc2474> more Juniper routers sold = more Intel chips sold, they both become winners[11:11:12] * rfc2474 still waits for the AMD rep to show up and start becoming active in the community[11:11:20] <tsoome> those vendors would use anything as long as they can save some money from licenses. thats it.[11:11:46] <rfc2474> tsoome: no, I think there were specific reasons why Juniper chose FreeBSD and Intel, it was not a casually made decision[11:11:57] <tsoome> sure there were[11:12:17] *** kart_ has joined #openindiana[11:12:32] <rfc2474> as opposed to making the core routers that handel hundreds of terrabits per second of BGP routing traffic run on AMD and Microsoft Windows[11:12:43] <tsoome> also there are some reasons we see bloody linux in ilom cards and not vxworks[11:13:05] <rfc2474> VXworks is over rated for a lot of things[11:13:25] <rfc2474> like Sonicwall firewalls are based on VXworks and they are the most unstable and volatile firewall platform I have ever come in to contact with[11:13:38] <rfc2474> and good luck trying to figure out what happened in a VXworks core dump[11:14:22] <rfc2474> maybe VXworks is good for avionics in aircraft and things like that, but I'm not impressed at the products I've seen that use it to route or switch tcp/ip[11:14:59] <rfc2474> I wish more vendors used NetBSD instead of Linux for iLOM cards, but w/e[11:15:46] <rfc2474> who is going to be the new leader of OpenIndiana with Alasdair taking a (hopefully temporary) hiatus?[11:16:27] *** break19 has quit IRC[11:16:41] *** break19 has joined #openindiana[11:17:17] <tsoome> bloody hell, i only have s10 u1 as earluest iso….[11:17:24] <tsoome> earliest*[11:17:32] *** ivan\ has quit IRC[11:17:34] *** kart_ has quit IRC[11:18:14] <tsoome> and even that is only sparc:([11:19:00] *** ivan\ has joined #openindiana[11:19:21] *** ianj has quit IRC[11:20:01] *** ianj has joined #openindiana[11:20:59] *** jellydonut has joined #openindiana[11:23:22] <rfc2474> reading this now -> http://lwn.net/Articles/514046/[11:24:54] <sjorge> yeah[11:25:06] <sjorge> sad news, although I do kind of get were is comming from[11:25:56] <lennard> aww crap[11:26:20] *** kartomartin has joined #openindiana[11:29:32] *** andy_js has quit IRC[11:29:38] *** andy_js_ has joined #openindiana[11:31:25] <Agnar> tsoome: I think I have a sol10 ga on dvd/cd here at home[11:31:34] <Agnar> tsoome: shall I take a look?[11:32:07] <tsoome> if you care to, sure. i just found i can order download from MOS as well tho[11:32:43] <tsoome> "This is fostered by GNU's "extend-and-embrace" approach - lots of seemingly nice but non-standard extensions that lock you into GNU. Whether intentionally or not, lots of OSS developers write "C" code that can only be compiled by gcc and scripts beginning "#!/bin/sh" that fail on POSIX shells. Libtool and autotools are classic double- speak - they claim to promote portability but actually do the opposite - the code might be portable but[11:32:44] <tsoome> autotools and libtool still endeavour to make building the code as painful as possible unless you have a GNU toolchain (preferably on Linux)." ---- I'm glad to see there are some brilliant people around still[11:33:39] <sjorge> :)[11:34:17] <PrestelPirate> jwz also had some good rants recently on the clusterfuck that is autotools[11:34:54] *** khalfella has quit IRC[11:36:23] <sjorge> I had less toruble with non autotools prewritten Makefiles[11:36:36] <tsoome> tools or not, i dont really care too much - they do change all the time, but what i *really* hate is how they are using words like "open" and "free" and are actually creating the biggest vendor lock the world has ever seen.[11:39:39] <PrestelPirate> Which is why so many large vendors are 'contributing' to open source projects (where it suits them)[11:51:38] *** kart_ has joined #openindiana[11:53:03] <trochej> And coffee[11:53:07] <trochej> don't forget coffee[11:53:24] <tsoome> lol[11:55:03] *** PrestelPirate has quit IRC[11:55:32] *** Whoopsie has joined #openindiana[11:55:32] *** ChanServ sets mode: +v Whoopsie[11:57:12] *** khalfella has joined #openindiana[11:58:47] *** kart_ has quit IRC[12:00:47] *** kart_ has joined #openindiana[12:07:58] *** jedi4ever has quit IRC[12:15:52] <lblume> it's lunch time now! Coffee will follow[12:28:42] *** nikolam has joined #openindiana[12:33:37] *** kart_ has quit IRC[12:34:07] *** anikin has quit IRC[12:37:23] *** kart_ has joined #openindiana[12:37:30] *** nikolam has quit IRC[12:44:26] *** kart_ has quit IRC[12:45:46] *** KermitTheFragger has quit IRC[12:46:31] *** kart_ has joined #openindiana[12:52:10] *** troydm has joined #openindiana[12:52:24] *** classix has joined #openindiana[12:57:48] <sjorge> lblume: europe?[12:58:58] *** andy_js_ has quit IRC[12:59:03] *** andy_js has joined #openindiana[13:00:00] *** Worsoe has quit IRC[13:02:36] <lblume> sjorge: Yup[13:03:17] * sjorge checks hostmask.... oh cloaked :([13:03:46] <lblume> Aren't you a curious one :-)[13:03:57] *** Whoopsie has quit IRC[13:04:04] <lblume> Anyhow, my connection host is hundreds of kms from where I am.[13:06:36] <sjorge> Curiosity killed the cat, good thing I'm not a cat :p[13:07:13] <lblume> It's common knowledge that I'm in Paris, France. At least for now ;-)[13:07:38] <sjorge> Antwerp/Brussels, depending on the day of the week :)[13:08:03] <sjorge> I thought the closest was london, till I met someone from Leuven. I forgot who it was though.[13:08:53] *** Whoopsie has joined #openindiana[13:08:53] *** ChanServ sets mode: +v Whoopsie[13:09:49] <lblume> wildcat is in Belgium, but he hangs out on #illumos[13:10:55] <sjorge> could have been him, i really don't remember[13:11:09] <sjorge> it was base oh shit the thunderstorm is here remark :D[13:13:04] <lblume> Heh, if the wind goes the right way, I'll get them the next day :-)[13:14:39] *** nikolam has joined #openindiana[13:17:33] <|woody|> [ 13:07:13 ] [ lblume ] It's common knowledge that I'm in Paris, France. At least for now ;-) <-- for those who hang out in all channels :)[13:17:40] <|woody|> Ok most of the people do :)[13:18:20] <lblume> |woody|: Yeah, I would not have said that on #rhel ;-)[13:19:12] <lblume> And admittedly, I should have shown more modesty and said "known by some people" ;-)[13:20:09] <tsoome> nice. i did create SR in mos, and ….. it's not there ….[13:20:23] <|woody|> well sjorge is in enough channels that he might have picked it up :)[13:21:02] <tsoome> ah, stupid powerview was filtering it off...[13:21:08] <|woody|> tsoome it was fixed when you hit submit :) Check closed bugs[13:21:19] <tsoome> na, wasnt that[13:22:04] <sjorge> |woody|: that I am; but i have not been around that long[13:22:13] <tsoome> another stupid packaging bug...[13:23:43] <|woody|> :) the fakeroot wil be fixed in U1 and probably sru12. Which is 5 months after I opened that bug[13:24:23] <tsoome> oh, what was it about, 64bit lib in /usr/lib ?[13:24:30] <|woody|> yes[13:24:35] <|woody|> no 32bit lib at all[13:25:01] <|woody|> something that QA should have caught in the first place[13:25:04] <tsoome> whats the name for the lib, i can check[13:25:27] <tsoome> tbh…. it really feels there is very little of QA in first place nowadays.[13:25:49] <lblume> |woody|: "QA"?[13:26:14] <|woody|> libfakeroot: http://pkg.oracle.com/solaris/release/manifest/0/developer%2Ffakeroot%401.12.2%2C5.11-0.175.0.0.0.0.0%3A20110927T084627Z[13:26:26] <|woody|> elfbit=64 :)[13:26:51] <|woody|> yeah I know Oracle doesn't have one :)[13:30:42] <tsoome> 10.5 at least has it still broken:D[13:31:19] *** kart__ has joined #openindiana[13:31:34] <lblume> |woody|: When you have their policy for vulnerabilities and patches, why would there be a need for QA?[13:31:41] <tsoome> i dont know, but this whole business just stinks. how its possible they are not able to fix such bugs...[13:33:12] <tsoome> or how its possible you include those freeware packages, and … dont update for like 8 years (as with libevent case)[13:33:13] <|woody|> it's still broken I know[13:33:40] <|woody|> fix is estimated for sru12 and in U1 which is probably out befor sru12[13:34:15] <lblume> tsoome: 8 years is small, they can do better. Remember the 1997 unzip we had till 2010?[13:34:20] <tsoome> :)[13:34:36] <|woody|> well with don't update stuff is not always easy.[13:35:00] <|woody|> Since the open source libs like to brake ABI and API[13:35:15] <|woody|> so you are stuck with the old stuff for same case[13:35:30] <|woody|> if you promance your stuff from Sol8 wil work on 10[13:35:39] <lblume> Or you get very funky situations like libpng![13:36:12] *** kart_ has quit IRC[13:36:19] <tsoome> thats not really the case tbh. thats exactly why there are versions etc[13:36:31] <lblume> But nah, I've realized that API/ABI stuff is just a thinly veiled excuse. What it really means is, we don't care.[13:37:49] <|woody|> well but some libs change your API/ABI without bumping the version etc[13:37:54] <|woody|> their[13:38:04] <|woody|> but anyway yes[13:38:09] <|woody|> some stuff is quite old[13:40:04] *** FilipF has joined #openindiana[13:44:56] *** anikin has joined #openindiana[13:51:22] *** merzo_ has quit IRC[13:57:47] *** kart__ is now known as kart_[13:58:22] *** keremet has left #openindiana[13:58:54] *** anikin has quit IRC[13:59:12] *** Sachiru has joined #openindiana[14:02:27] *** anikin has joined #openindiana[14:09:23] *** nikolam has quit IRC[14:22:30] *** kart_ has quit IRC[14:24:14] *** kart_ has joined #openindiana[14:24:56] *** khalfella has quit IRC[14:30:09] *** jamesd has joined #openindiana[14:30:14] *** kart_ has quit IRC[14:33:18] *** POloser has left #openindiana[14:34:23] *** kart_ has joined #openindiana[14:39:52] *** kart_ has quit IRC[15:02:59] *** tsoome_ has joined #openindiana[15:02:59] *** tsoome_ has quit IRC[15:07:07] *** tsoome has quit IRC[15:08:33] *** Okona has quit IRC[15:16:41] *** SupremeOverlord has joined #openindiana[15:19:13] *** Okona has joined #openindiana[15:25:05] *** nightwalk has joined #openindiana[15:28:37] *** Kaishi has quit IRC[15:28:56] *** Kaishi has joined #openindiana[15:36:32] *** PhoenixMage has joined #openindiana[15:39:37] *** Kaishi has quit IRC[15:47:19] *** ball has joined #openindiana[15:52:32] *** kart_ has joined #openindiana[15:53:54] *** wonko2 is now known as wonko[16:03:33] *** tsoome has joined #openindiana[16:07:14] *** kart__ has joined #openindiana[16:08:47] *** kart_ has quit IRC[16:14:04] *** kart__ is now known as kart_[16:17:35] *** tsoome has quit IRC[16:18:29] *** tsoome has joined #openindiana[16:31:37] *** Sachiru has quit IRC[16:34:56] *** tsoome has quit IRC[16:35:41] *** tsoome has joined #openindiana[16:36:02] *** PhoenixMage has quit IRC[16:36:15] *** tsoome has quit IRC[16:37:18] *** tsoome has joined #openindiana[16:37:29] *** PhoenixMage has joined #openindiana[16:51:34] *** anikin has quit IRC[16:53:25] *** Kaishi has joined #openindiana[16:57:01] *** kartomartin has quit IRC[16:58:02] *** andy_js has quit IRC[17:08:02] *** Whoopsie has quit IRC[17:16:43] *** andy_js has joined #openindiana[17:18:15] *** ball has quit IRC[17:21:28] *** kart_ has quit IRC[17:22:40] *** kart_ has joined #openindiana[17:27:33] *** russiane39 has quit IRC[17:29:26] *** nikolam has joined #openindiana[17:29:32] *** russiane39 has joined #openindiana[17:34:41] *** paveq has joined #openindiana[17:34:59] <paveq> hi, I'm looking for openindiana stable build[17:35:12] <paveq> the download page seems to list only development builds?[17:37:03] <patdk-wk> there are none :)[17:37:20] <paveq> its not ready for production use then?[17:38:00] <paveq> hmm, maybe I have to look solaris 11 express then (for my NAS box)[17:38:47] <paveq> btw, openindiana installer doesn't seem to recognize 3 TB disks.. something about not supported in 32 bit[17:38:49] <patdk-wk> hmm, I thought that was pretty broken[17:39:00] <paveq> although download link says 32/64[17:39:12] <patdk-wk> solaris period, doesn't support >2tb disks in 32bit mode[17:39:13] <paveq> well.. I suspect the installer is only 32 bit, but can install 64 bit system?[17:39:26] <patdk-wk> the installer is 32bit AND 64bit[17:39:33] <patdk-wk> sounds like you don't have a 64bit cpu[17:40:02] *** patdk-lap has quit IRC[17:40:07] <patdk-wk> it isn't linux/windows, there aren't two versions, a 32bit and 64bit[17:40:22] <patdk-wk> there is only one, and it runs in whatever mode the cpu supports, 32 or 64[17:40:31] <paveq> my cpu is LGA1155 pentium G630T[17:40:37] <paveq> is it not 64 bit, as every current cpu is[17:40:56] <patdk-wk> lots of current cpu's aren't 64bit[17:41:17] <paveq> well anyway, what would you recommend for production use :)[17:41:25] <patdk-wk> that cpu claims 64bit[17:41:34] <|AbsyntH|> http://ark.intel.com/products/53484/Intel-Pentium-Processor-G630T-%283M-Cache-2_30-GHz%29[17:41:37] <patdk-wk> I have been using oi in production for over a year now[17:42:11] <paveq> patdk-wk: is there constant breaking updates like in debian/gentoo/whatever testing/unstable?[17:42:21] <paveq> thats not what I'm looking for[17:42:29] <patdk-wk> heh?[17:42:38] <patdk-wk> what is, constant breaking updates[17:42:46] <patdk-wk> atleast I have never seen that in debian[17:42:53] <|AbsyntH|> me too[17:42:54] <paveq> well I mean rolling updates[17:43:09] <paveq> debian unstable at least has them[17:43:10] <|AbsyntH|> debian sid is a "rolling" release[17:43:29] <paveq> but is oi development a rolling "release"?[17:44:38] <paveq> I guess my options are: a) linux with btrfs (not recommended for production yet), b) oi, c) another solaris-variant, maybe smartos?[17:44:57] <|AbsyntH|> fbsd with zfs ?[17:44:57] *** patdk-lap has joined #openindiana[17:45:05] <paveq> this is nas box, so I'm mainly looking for good fs with checksumming[17:45:14] <JT-EC> oi or omnios or freenas with zfs[17:45:32] <JT-EC> oi dev isn't rolling like sid, each update is a whole OS[17:46:03] <paveq> JT-EC: maybe I should try it then[17:46:12] <JT-EC> which installs to a new BE allowing easy rollback in the event of something not agreeing with your system.[17:46:15] <paveq> the word "development" just scares the hell out of me[17:46:33] <|AbsyntH|> freenas with zfs ;)[17:46:35] <paveq> specially when I'm about to store TB's of data :)[17:47:29] * patdk-wk finds words don't mean much[17:47:34] <patdk-wk> cause everyone uses them differently[17:47:49] <patdk-wk> I feel oi is much more *stable* than solaris express[17:48:27] <|AbsyntH|> mmm but freenas is still based on fbsd 8.2 the "old-stable"[17:48:34] <patdk-wk> ubuntu's dev release *after* their lts stable release is normally more stable than the lts :)[17:49:14] <paveq> in my linux servers I use only debian or centos, I feel ubuntu is too bleeding edge distro for serious use :P[17:49:33] <paveq> no one wants to updated in every 6 months or so[17:50:11] *** |AbsyntH| has quit IRC[17:50:17] <paveq> and rolling release is hell too, because bug fix is not tighted to any release version[17:50:29] <paveq> every system might be different, depending on the last update date[17:50:46] <patdk-wk> ubuntu is every 2 years[17:50:55] <patdk-wk> dunno where you got 6months from[17:51:28] *** rfc2474 has quit IRC[17:51:42] <paveq> perhaps LTS is every 2 years[17:52:08] <patdk-wk> updated 2 years, supported for 5[17:52:20] <patdk-wk> rhel and debian are both on a 5/6year cycle currently[17:52:29] <patdk-wk> so it still matchs the same as them[17:52:32] <paveq> can I install oi on the data disks (raidz or raidz2)?[17:52:48] <paveq> its problematic when the installer doesn't detect them[17:53:07] <patdk-wk> rpool can't be on a raidz[17:53:10] <paveq> or do you recommend separated OS disk (that would be most likely usb stick in my case)?[17:53:20] <patdk-wk> oi doesn't like usb sticks at all[17:53:30] <patdk-wk> it wants a real disk[17:55:20] <paveq> patdk-wk: why?[17:56:24] <paveq> I was even thinking "perhaps this usb3 stick will do as L2ARC device too"[17:56:35] <patdk-wk> oh hell no[17:56:47] <paveq> even though sequential speeds are bit slower, random access should be quite fast[17:57:13] <paveq> don't say I just bought useless stick :P[17:57:16] <patdk-wk> solaris doesn't have usb3 support[17:57:24] <patdk-wk> it *hardly* has usb2 disk support[17:57:29] <paveq> really? :S[17:57:39] <paveq> what is this.. the 90's[17:57:40] <patdk-wk> usb support isn't exactly stable for anything beyond keyboard/mouse usage :)[17:57:40] <JT-EC> USB works for me[17:57:52] <patdk-wk> for lots of people it doesn't[17:58:05] <patdk-wk> I wouldn't *depend* on it[17:58:17] <patdk-wk> I'm pretty sure usb3 drivers don't exist[17:58:58] <JT-EC> Yes usb3 is not there at all. Are bugs being filed in illumos if usb2 is playing up?[17:59:31] <patdk-wk> I personally don't know, just remember lots of discussions about it in this channel[17:59:40] <paveq> hmm, perhaps I should do small raid1 partition across all the disks for root filesystem[17:59:43] <patdk-wk> I personally would never use a usb attached disk/flash drive[17:59:49] <paveq> and partition rest of the disks for data[18:00:05] <paveq> thats what I did with mdadm years ago, when grub didn't support raid5 booting[18:00:35] <patdk-wk> https://www.illumos.org/issues/1979[18:00:45] <patdk-wk> odd, that seems to be they *think* it has usb3 support[18:01:02] <paveq> patdk-wk: usb3 protocol actually fixes lot of fundamental things that where wrong in usb2[18:01:03] *** ball has joined #openindiana[18:01:24] <patdk-wk> paveq, still, doesn't help if it isn't supported :)[18:01:44] <patdk-wk> none of my servers come with usb3 either[18:02:02] <patdk-wk> even the new workstations I got, didn't have any[18:02:11] <paveq> well this is just my home server, a mini-ITX system :)[18:02:16] <patdk-wk> so only gaming motherboards have them I guess[18:02:36] <patdk-wk> oh ya, lots of itx have them, guess to make up for lack of space :)[18:02:42] <patdk-wk> atleast give them a port that is worth something :)[18:03:05] <patdk-wk> the last two laptops I ordered have usb3, and that is all[18:03:16] <patdk-wk> so defently usb3 isn't making much market headway yet[18:03:24] <patdk-wk> probably spring[18:04:08] <ball> You know, I think the box I'm trying OpenIndiana on has an mITX board in it.[18:05:42] <patdk-wk> I have it on 3 supermicro servers and a dell r510[18:06:02] <paveq> which would you recommend: a) do small (10-30G) raid1 partition across all disks and install OS there, b) get separated OS ssd disk[18:06:10] <paveq> a) would be redundant, b) would not[18:06:24] <paveq> although OS could be always reinstalled, but its still work[18:06:42] <patdk-wk> my smallest oi installs are about 10g, then you need dump and swap space[18:06:48] *** kart_ has quit IRC[18:06:50] <patdk-wk> 30g would be pushing it, I like to do 100g[18:07:03] *** PhoenixMage1 has joined #openindiana[18:07:59] <paveq> perhaps I should just use my four disks as raid10 and install there[18:08:03] <paveq> without partitioning[18:08:25] <paveq> I wonder if I have to consider alingment issues too, since these are WD RED's, 4k sectors..[18:08:30] *** kart_ has joined #openindiana[18:08:37] <patdk-wk> nope[18:08:46] *** PhoenixMage has quit IRC[18:08:56] <ball> I hope to try it on an old Dell 2650, but I need to find some SCSI disks for it first.[18:09:09] <ball> ...unless I can somehow hack SATA into it, but then I'd lose hot-swap[18:09:24] <patdk-wk> ball I hope that has u320 scsi[18:09:31] <patdk-wk> cause u160 isn't supported[18:09:51] <JT-EC> We don't have u160 support?[18:09:57] <JT-EC> hmmm[18:10:09] <patdk-wk> I think scsi raid cards only[18:10:16] <patdk-wk> but defently not normal scsi cards[18:10:37] <patdk-wk> no adaptec u160 scsi cards are supported[18:10:45] <patdk-wk> and that pretty much means all motherboard built in chips[18:11:22] <ball> This'll be whatever Dell shipped in it. It's an older machine so there's a good chance it's Ultra160 or Ultra2[18:13:02] <patdk-wk> ball can't say :([18:13:10] <patdk-wk> they shipped both u160 and u320 with that server :([18:14:06] <paveq> does freenas run solaris kernel?[18:14:14] <patdk-wk> fbsd[18:14:35] <paveq> how stable is zfs implementation on fbsd?[18:16:07] <patdk-wk> ask fbsd/freenas people?[18:19:29] <Triskelios> should be quite reliable[18:20:22] *** Micr0mega has left #openindiana[18:21:40] <ball> patdk-wk: I'll find out. Either way, I need drives for it.[18:21:52] <patdk-wk> I have *lots* of drives :)[18:22:08] <patdk-wk> I have no u320 scsi cards[18:22:21] <patdk-wk> and so, have dumped all those servers, they needed to be retired years ago[18:23:10] *** nikolam has quit IRC[18:25:57] <paveq> "ti_install.py: unable to detect instruction set"[18:26:03] <paveq> I tried to install on usb device..[18:26:22] <paveq> perhaps OI doesn't support new cpu's either[18:26:38] <paveq> only thing I did was enable intel VT[18:31:14] <paveq> any way to debug this?[18:31:37] <paveq> when I pick "shell" from the installer menu and type uname -a, it tells me I have 32 bit kernel[18:31:46] <paveq> but my system is 64 bit :/[18:32:32] <JT-EC> uname -a doesn't show the bitness... isainfo -k[18:44:31] <paveq> JT-EC: uname -a shows bitness of the running kernel?[18:44:35] <paveq> JT-EC: that is what I meant[18:45:05] *** zastaph has joined #openindiana[18:45:06] <JT-EC> No, isainfo -k[18:45:40] *** PhoenixMage has joined #openindiana[18:46:26] <paveq> JT-EC: least on linux is says for example i686..[18:46:27] <JT-EC> or isainfo -b[18:46:32] <paveq> but I will check, later[18:46:36] <JT-EC> Yes, yes, illumos isn't linux[18:46:49] <paveq> the system is currently running 4x badblocks processes under linux livecd[18:46:54] *** PhoenixMage1 has quit IRC[18:49:39] *** PhoenixMage1 has joined #openindiana[18:50:07] *** PhoenixMage has quit IRC[18:54:29] *** sebsta has joined #openindiana[19:03:33] *** Seony has joined #openindiana[19:04:09] *** master_of_master has quit IRC[19:05:53] *** master_of_master has joined #openindiana[19:06:29] *** Kaishi has quit IRC[19:08:54] *** tsukasa has joined #openindiana[19:08:54] *** tsukasa has joined #openindiana[19:11:21] <ball> patdk-wk: Why do you think it wouldn't support new CPUs?[19:11:39] <patdk-wk> when did I say that?[19:12:00] <ball> gah tab-completion fail.[19:12:02] <ball> Sorry[19:12:21] * ball <- lazy typist[19:12:40] <patdk-wk> hire a secretary[19:12:47] <ball> paveq: Why do you think it wouldn't support new CPUs?[19:14:39] <paveq> ball: I just wonder why I get this "3 TB disks not supported in 32 bit" when my system is supposed to be 64 bit[19:15:43] <ball> It may not be talking about your instruction set. Are you running 64-bit OpenIndiana though?[19:16:34] <paveq> ball: I'm running the installer[19:16:38] <paveq> which is supposed to support both[19:16:53] <paveq> and do some kind of autodetect magic (which might have failed here)[19:18:08] <xenol> paveq: I have used ZFS on FreeBSD on servers since 7.x and never had any issues with it. I am using it on FreeBSD installs[19:18:15] <paveq> ball: anyway, the installer doesn't detect my 3 TB disks[19:18:29] <paveq> xenol: vanilla freebsd has zfs support?[19:19:00] <ball> paveq: Are those the type that use 4096-byte sectors?[19:19:09] <xenol> paveq: yes[19:19:18] * ball wonders why he didn't just type 512K[19:19:20] <xenol> paveq: use mfsbsd for installing it\[19:19:29] <paveq> not sure if I want freenas or any specific nas OS, because I might want to run general programs too (apache, my own services, maybe even virtual machines)[19:19:31] <xenol> as simple as one command :)[19:20:01] <paveq> ball: WD RED, 4k sectors[19:20:11] <paveq> perhaps 512b emulated, dunno[19:20:12] <xenol> what kind of CPU do you have?[19:20:22] <xenol> most of the 3rd party stuff will need to be compiled[19:20:31] <ball> I know what you mean. I'm glad FreeNAS exists but there are times when I just want to be able to drop to the shell and run something on an ad-hoc basis.[19:20:58] <ball> fwiw I'm running OpenIndiana (experimentally) on an Intel Atom 330 chip[19:21:01] <xenol> but new pkgng repositories exist. However, I have not tried them[19:21:04] <ball> ...in 64-bit mode.[19:21:40] <paveq> xenol: LGA1155 pentium G630T with intel H77 chipset[19:22:41] <xenol> I bought NAS (hp microserver) last week. Has low voltage AMD Turion. I hope to get OI running on it :)[19:22:44] <paveq> ball: I'm mostly shell user too[19:23:02] <paveq> if I want those web UI programs to manage my music collection and stuff, I will find and install them :P[19:23:08] <paveq> don't need them bundled with the OS[19:23:16] <ball> A G630T should be noticably faster than my Atom.[19:23:30] <ball> ...and it has VT-x, which mine doesn't.[19:23:31] <paveq> if freenas is just vanilla freebsd with bundled software, then I might use it[19:24:33] <paveq> ball: I wasn't sure if any atom system could substaion gigabit ethernet speeds with cifs/nfs[19:24:57] *** Webhostbudd has joined #openindiana[19:25:32] <paveq> xenol: also, wasn't sure about that amd processor either, its quite low end and old[19:25:37] <ball> paveq: That's not something I've tested. I suppose it depends on your disk array.[19:25:38] <patdk-wk> didn't know cifs could substain gigabit on anything :)[19:25:47] <paveq> though microserver is definitely instresting product[19:25:47] <ball> hello Webhostbudd[19:25:54] <Webhostbudd> hi[19:26:00] <paveq> with ECC-RAM and hotswap :)[19:26:46] <ball> HP's Microserver? I wouldn't mind one of those. The processor's a bit weak but for file storage it would be adequate.[19:26:56] <ball> It's not something I'd want to run VMs on.[19:26:57] *** kart_ has quit IRC[19:27:56] <xenol> It is small, quiet and doesn't consume many watts, ideal as home NAS solution[19:28:02] * ball nods[19:28:10] <ball> Our 2650 is *loud*[19:28:28] <ball> I put it in the basement but even there I think the staff are going to complain[19:28:41] <paveq> I just build my own mini-itx system in fractal design array R2 case[19:28:41] <ball> We also use an ML110, but that's quiet.[19:28:51] <paveq> is supports max 6 diska[19:28:54] <paveq> disks*[19:29:05] <ball> I thought it only had four bays[19:29:12] <ball> ...which is fine for our needs.[19:30:31] <xenol> HP Microserver can hold up to 5 disks afaik[19:30:52] <xenol> though, they ship it only with 4 disk enclosures[19:31:16] <paveq> hmm.. how long does it take to run badblocks on 3 TB disk[19:31:29] <paveq> I did use blocksize 4096[19:31:39] <patdk-wk> heh? I'm sure I have seen microservers with 12disks :)[19:32:45] <patdk-wk> http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v11/Ba-Ka/DSC_0781_temp.jpg[19:32:50] <patdk-wk> oh, not a microserver, but close in size[19:33:14] <paveq> thats just awfull[19:33:20] <ball> Hmm... I suspect the tape drive will cost more than the Microserver ;-)[19:33:27] <paveq> I bet those drives aren't going to last long[19:33:44] <paveq> who uses tapes anymore :)[19:33:48] <patdk-wk> I do[19:33:55] <patdk-wk> have a 24tape lto3 system[19:33:55] <ball> paveq: Lots of people do.[19:34:00] <patdk-wk> need to upgrade those drives to lto5[19:34:02] <paveq> in what size they come nowdays?[19:34:09] <ball> At my day job we have tape libraries[19:34:10] <patdk-wk> 1.6tb per tape[19:34:15] <paveq> I saw last tape backup system about 5 years ago[19:34:30] <ball> At my part-time job we just have an individual tape drive, though we don't use it much.[19:34:42] <paveq> since then everyone seems to have moved to harddrive based systems[19:34:47] <xenol> patdk-wk: I wonder what temperature do those disks have :)[19:34:56] <ball> paveq: Do you work in enterprise IT?[19:34:56] <patdk-wk> xenol, ya, I don't want to know[19:35:06] <paveq> ball: in university IT[19:35:49] <paveq> but for example 1.6TB tape wouldn't fit our data[19:36:01] <patdk-wk> paveq, it's called a lib :)[19:36:11] <patdk-wk> stack in 24, 48, ... tapes, and just let it go[19:36:23] <patdk-wk> my stuff fits in 7 tapes[19:36:26] <paveq> patdk-wk: how do you make offline backups then?[19:36:31] <patdk-wk> unit holds 24 tapes[19:36:42] <paveq> isn't offline backups the thing why tapes exist[19:36:49] <patdk-wk> so I 3 fulls and lots of inc in the lib[19:36:57] <paveq> our team just runs backuppc software with regular harddrives[19:37:08] <patdk-wk> you remove the mags from the lib[19:37:12] <patdk-wk> in mine, 7 tapes per mag[19:37:20] <patdk-wk> so offline it, means removing 7 tapes at a time[19:37:29] <patdk-wk> just pull it out, and shove in a new mag[19:37:42] <patdk-wk> takes 2 seconds to open the door to do that :)[19:37:51] <patdk-wk> then the lib reindexs and registers the new tapes[19:37:51] <ball> Last time I worked in university IT, I got to feed open-reel tapes to a VAX 6000[19:38:16] <paveq> patdk-wk: nice :)[19:38:31] * ball can't remember how many LTO-5 cartridges the libraries at work hold[19:38:36] <paveq> we don't actually do offline backups, but anyway maybe some other projects do[19:38:44] <ball> ...I know we're backing up about 120 Tbytes of customer data.[19:38:49] <paveq> we don't really store user data, so its not *that* important[19:39:12] <patdk-wk> ya, this tape lib is *only cause we have it*[19:39:23] <patdk-wk> still do disks and offsite disk backups[19:39:31] <patdk-wk> and everyone else I know, does the onsite/offsite disks[19:39:47] <paveq> I bet offline backups don't even make much sense with large amounts of data[19:40:02] <paveq> it is just better to backup offsite[19:40:21] <patdk-wk> it all depends *what* your protecting against[19:40:45] <paveq> what does offline protect against? power surge?[19:40:53] <patdk-wk> offline tape backups is cheap for storage space[19:41:01] <patdk-wk> so you can keep a great deal of history[19:41:08] <patdk-wk> incase you need to recover from corruption[19:41:23] <paveq> but zfs is here to protect us from it :)[19:41:25] <ball> I believe our libraries replicate between data centres at the weekend[19:41:41] <patdk-wk> zfs won't protect you from someone making an sql mistake[19:41:54] <patdk-wk> and corruption your finance records[19:41:57] <ball> Johnny Tables?[19:42:31] <paveq> patdk-wk: thats the problem of the user :)[19:42:41] <patdk-wk> doesn't matter, user gets fired[19:42:46] <patdk-wk> now it's your problem to *fix* :)[19:43:28] <patdk-wk> restore database before corruption[19:43:36] <patdk-wk> then replay all transactions, except that one to it :([19:44:26] <paveq> luckily zfs has snapshots[19:44:54] <paveq> of course not infinite amount of those, but still..[19:45:09] <patdk-wk> and luckilly you have that 1tb db on a 100tb zpool :)[19:45:33] <patdk-wk> I'm attempting to get one person to change their db habbits[19:45:38] <patdk-wk> they do weekly db dumps[19:45:47] <patdk-wk> they completely flush the db, and reload the data[19:45:52] <patdk-wk> that is so not snapshot friendly[19:45:55] <patdk-wk> or backup[19:46:46] <paveq> why would they do that[19:46:56] <paveq> reload the data[19:47:02] <paveq> dump is understandable[19:47:35] <patdk-wk> why not?[19:47:55] <patdk-wk> in this case the data is stagnate[19:48:02] <patdk-wk> it's just reproduced[19:48:06] <paveq> :D[19:48:28] <paveq> zfs snapshot doesn't guarantee integrity of database, right?[19:48:30] <patdk-wk> I just don't want them to *republish* dups, but to actually to deletes and inserts[19:48:35] <paveq> as not any filesystem level snapshot?[19:48:58] <tsoome> depends on db[19:49:18] <tsoome> normally you need to give some shake for DB;)[19:49:49] <patdk-wk> like mysql hsa the flush with lock[19:50:03] <paveq> hmm, I remember using xfs_freeze with zfs on lvm to make kvm snapshots, to guarantee better integrity[19:50:28] <paveq> xfs_freeze actually writes everything out (sync()) and halts for a moment[19:50:36] <paveq> perhaps zfs does that internally[19:50:43] <tsoome> basically, you wanna make sure the application caches are flushed[19:50:53] <patdk-wk> xfs_freese is totally not needed in zfs[19:50:54] *** PhoenixMage1 has quit IRC[19:50:55] *** Kaishi has joined #openindiana[19:51:08] <patdk-wk> but xfs_freeze doesn't get around any db issues for snapshots[19:51:09] <tsoome> zfs snapshot will make sure its cache is on disk[19:51:47] *** PhoenixMage has joined #openindiana[19:52:27] <paveq> I think databases to syncronous writes[19:52:34] <paveq> so xfs_freeze would work there[19:53:00] <patdk-wk> assuming you are acid complient :)[19:57:05] <paveq> its been quite long time since I used that configuration, but I also remember there being something very wrong with LVM snapshots :P[19:57:24] <paveq> couldn't have more than few of those, or otherwise the performance would drop to near zero[19:57:51] <paveq> even though that where supposed to be COW[19:59:16] <patdk-wk> that wasn't an issue[19:59:20] <patdk-wk> that was a *feature*[19:59:28] <patdk-wk> they where COW[19:59:40] <patdk-wk> the issue is, they used by default a 4MB block size[19:59:52] <patdk-wk> so random writes would turn into random 4MB writes[20:00:09] <paveq> :D[20:00:49] <patdk-wk> I guess the idea was, if you push out that 4mb, you wouldn't have to touch near stuff again[20:01:11] <paveq> also maybe reduce size of mapping table (eg. what block is reallocated where)[20:01:18] <paveq> that was also an issue[20:04:34] *** slx86 has joined #openindiana[20:08:06] *** nightwalk has quit IRC[20:08:20] *** PhoenixMage has quit IRC[20:08:58] *** Webhostbudd has quit IRC[20:09:01] *** PhoenixMage has joined #openindiana[20:15:53] *** imaxs has joined #openindiana[20:19:15] *** PhoenixMage1 has joined #openindiana[20:21:45] *** PhoenixMage has quit IRC[20:25:33] *** flyz has quit IRC[20:37:19] *** flyz has joined #openindiana[20:49:59] *** Hedonisto has quit IRC[20:54:29] *** SupremeOverlord has 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