July 22, 2019 
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<Takums90!~Tak@73.90.205.2> has joined ##OpenGL[13:10:31] *** Takums90 is now known as Takums[13:13:15] *** learningc <learningc!~learningc@121.122.92.39> has joined ##OpenGL[13:19:33] *** Takums <Takums!~Tak@73.90.205.2> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)[13:20:17] *** Takums <Takums!~Tak@73.90.205.75> has joined ##OpenGL[13:21:03] *** slime <slime!~slime73@24.215.81.93> has quit IRC (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)[13:21:43] *** Yaniel <Yaniel!yaniel@unaffiliated/yaniel> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)[13:30:20] *** Yaniel <Yaniel!yaniel@unaffiliated/yaniel> has joined ##OpenGL[13:38:00] *** Takums <Takums!~Tak@73.90.205.75> has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer)[13:40:48] *** Takums <Takums!~Tak@73.90.205.75> has joined ##OpenGL[13:41:18] *** immibis <immibis!~immibis@222-153-90-196-fibre.sparkbb.co.nz> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)[14:07:23] *** KAHR-Alpha <KAHR-Alpha!~Alpha@2a01cb0d024a6600410409a829e89fa0.ipv6.abo.wanadoo.fr> has joined ##OpenGL[14:31:43] *** Takums <Takums!~Tak@73.90.205.75> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)[14:40:28] *** kenzierocks <kenzierocks!~kenzieroc@yes.quite.indeed.old.chap.it.is.kenzierocks.me> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)[14:41:03] *** kenzierocks <kenzierocks!~kenzieroc@yes.quite.indeed.old.chap.it.is.kenzierocks.me> has joined ##OpenGL[14:42:10] *** VladTheImplier <VladTheImplier!9960ec10@s16.iws.fraunhofer.de> has joined ##OpenGL[14:45:16] *** Twipply <Twipply!~Twipply@unaffiliated/twipply> has joined ##OpenGL[14:51:58] <VladTheImplier> Hey there. I'm translating my camera on the Y Axis 0.5 Units up. (Default OpenGL Coordinates) I expect the world to move "move down". My view matrix says [1, 0, 0, 0][0,1,0,0.5][0,0,1,-3][0,0,0,1]. However, the world "moves up", or it seems the camera moved down. Why is my Y axis seemingly inverted?[14:53:45] <Yaniel> because your matrix does not move the camera, it moves the world[14:56:01] <VladTheImplier> Yaniel: Ohhhhhh, right! So when I pipe in my Camera's position to create the view matrix I have to negate the position...[14:56:57] <Yaniel> depends on how you create it[14:57:21] <Yaniel> lookAt usually takes worldspace coordinates for both the eye and the target position[14:58:01] <Yaniel> if you create the matrix "manually" then you have to keep in mind what is actually going on[14:58:09] <VladTheImplier> Yaniel: I require the camera's rotation matrix, so I'm building it from scratch.[14:58:20] <VladTheImplier> Yaniel: Does the same go for the rotation?[14:58:25] <zid> This is why I hate using random aux libs and stuff[14:58:35] <zid> cus fuck knows what coordinate spaces etc they're using etc[14:58:43] <Yaniel> zid: does not sound like they are using aux libs here...[14:58:46] <zid> easier to just write your own shit and keep it all straight than to figure out what it is they're doing[14:58:56] <zid> ..lookAt is part of opengl now? :p[14:59:02] <Yaniel> no but they aren't using it[14:59:33] <Yaniel> also ain't nobody got time to write matrix multiplication for the 9000th time[14:59:54] <Yaniel> VladTheImplier: um what same?[15:00:04] <Yaniel> the matrix does not really know about cameras or worlds[15:00:09] <Yaniel> it just transforms points[15:00:31] <VladTheImplier> Yaniel: Do I have to negate the rotation like the position? I mean the answer must be yes....[15:00:33] <Yaniel> specifically, your vertex positions[15:01:08] <VladTheImplier> Yaniel: I want my camera to rotate 90° around the Y axis CW, so the world totates 90° CCW[15:01:33] <Yaniel> yes[15:02:11] <VladTheImplier> Yaniel: Which makes me wonder, can't I just scale the "CameraMatrix" by -1.0 to get the actual viewMatrix?[15:03:19] <Yaniel> because the w component exists[15:03:37] <zid> Just don't accidentally push your nose through the back of your head with some negative scales ;)[15:05:21] <VladTheImplier> Yaniel: Ohh, yeah. Scaling by -100% doesn't do the same. So what transformation do I have to do to get from "Camera Matrix" to the viewmatrix?[15:05:30] <VladTheImplier> Just negate everything?[15:05:45] <Yaniel> invert the matrix[15:05:54] <Yaniel> which is a rather costly operation[15:06:07] <Yaniel> no, negation is not the same as inversion[15:06:45] *** mujjingun <mujjingun!uid228218@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-tayvzmhtgvrcudlw> has quit IRC (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)[15:07:27] <Yaniel> https://www.mathsisfun.com/algebra/matrix-inverse.html[15:07:45] <VladTheImplier> Yaniel: Nice, all working now! Really gotta brush up on my vector stuff. =.= my vector library, cglm, has something called "glm_mat4_inv_fast" which is apparently less costly...[15:08:37] <Yaniel> it's also possible that there is no inverse for a given matrix ":D"[15:09:02] <VladTheImplier> t...that's not a happy smiley at the end?[15:09:41] <Yaniel> https://cdn.wallpapersafari.com/9/17/P7Ykax.jpg it's this one[15:12:05] <VladTheImplier> Heh... 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ZZZzzz…)[20:56:22] *** dansho <dansho!~dansho4@71-84-161-204.dhcp.astr.or.charter.com> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)[21:00:04] *** SwiftMatt <SwiftMatt!~Objective@2601:282:4300:3e:f8f5:530f:f968:4e18> has joined ##OpenGL[21:14:45] *** mukunda <mukunda!mukunda@adsl-68-19-251-109.bna.bellsouth.net> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)[21:29:23] <wrobinso1> reading about vertexAttribPointers - pretty cool to have one array with pos, col, tex, etc and using the stride and offset to separate[21:29:50] <wrobinso1> however, does this not cause a load of cache misses when i.e. only working on vertex positions?[21:29:53] <Yaniel> the current recommendation AFAIK is to not interleave them though[21:30:04] <Yaniel> you can still use a single buffer, no problem[21:30:13] <wrobinso1> just pos's, then col's ...[21:30:16] <zid> wrobinso1: if you consider the 'seek and grab a vert's data' cache behavior it's probably better like that[21:30:16] <wrobinso1> that's what I was thinking[21:30:20] <Yaniel> yeah[21:30:40] <zid> but if you're doing "process all the vert data so you can do culling" it's probably worse[21:30:44] <zid> swings and roundabouts[21:30:58] <zid> all positional data in the vert, however you'd say that[21:31:46] <wrobinso1> i was having hard time picturing when interleaved would be more efficient[21:31:53] <gehn> if you're going to process all data linearly, then tightly packed is probably better for performance/cache-misses[21:31:57] *** wrobinso1 is now known as wrobinson[21:32:00] <gehn> s/tightly packed/interleaved/[21:32:15] <zid> I gave an example[21:32:57] <wrobinson> zid: thanks[21:33:10] <zid> You're the gpu, going down the indicies to pluck out random verts in a randomish order, and dealing with every part of the vertex (say xyz and a normal)[21:33:16] <zid> you'd much rather not have to do 5 accesses there[21:33:21] <zid> and instead do a single cache line read[21:33:44] <wrobinson> if it's dealing with all parts of vert simultaneously, then yes[21:33:52] <vmt> you're the gpu now dog[21:33:57] <Yaniel> it's not entirely that simple either[21:34:00] <wrobinson> s/vert/each vert/[21:34:08] <wrobinson> Yaniel: sadly it almost never is[21:34:33] <wrobinson> it will boil down to what the most common circumstance is for any given program, I suppose[21:34:39] <vmt> Yaniel: pray, do tell[21:34:40] <Yaniel> some GPUs have dedicated vertex input data paths & registers[21:34:57] <Yaniel> and cache is larger than just a single line :P[21:35:21] <vmt> "some gpus" == legacy from how many years ago?[21:35:54] <Yaniel> like... 2?[21:36:11] <zid> Unsorted verts vs sorted verts may favour one or the other more as well for bonus fun[21:36:45] <vmt> alright, today i learned, i figure[21:36:46] <Yaniel> along with the whole one GPU manufacturer focuses on rasterization perf and the other on compute[21:37:10] <vmt> well, i'm just waiting for ice lake. whenever that might happen.[21:37:31] <wrobinson> oh dear, I appear to have opened another pandoras box for myself[21:37:53] <zid> do you care about the difference between 182fps and 183fps for your industry leading AAA title on a 2080?[21:37:55] <zid> Me doubts it[21:38:05] <zid> This is above all of our pay grade[21:38:57] <vmt> best way to start a project is make sure you at least try to micro-optimize everything and use github best practices (tm) and get lost in a misguided jungle before you even start![21:39:16] <lapsang> im having fun as a beginner[21:39:26] <lapsang> this stuff is deep[21:39:27] <zid> you sort of need a huge badly written project to begin with before you can think about optimization[21:39:33] <zid> so if you can't get that far..[21:39:46] <Yaniel> just do whatever is convenient for what you are doing[21:39:54] <vmt> at the end of the day you can tell yourself, it's not even worth to get started[21:39:56] <zid> You're not going to measure shit with 40 verts and 20 faces[21:40:03] <lapsang> The name of the game is optimization, tho, right?[21:40:06] <zid> so just get smacking shit into scenes[21:40:07] *** Takums <Takums!~Tak@73.90.204.126> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)[21:40:12] <Yaniel> and maybe run something like compressonator to optimize the vertex order on your meshes if you feel like it[21:40:23] <lapsang> I'm playing with a shadertoy right now and seeing how certain parameters are really natuarally bounded by bad results[21:40:30] <Yaniel> ...unless you are doign vertex animation in which case don't[21:40:57] <vmt> shaders... are a whole another can of worms. black magic, i tells you[21:41:22] <Yaniel> nah[21:42:40] <vmt> often times i find myself in deep waters writing shaders. often times it's hard for me to visualize a problem which leads to somewhat of a trial-and-error -type of approach. not very optimal[21:42:46] <Yaniel> they are just like "auntie's wooden vert, auntie's wooden vert; let's paint it red and name it fred - it's well and truly dead"[21:44:09] <gehn> shaders are only black magic until you understand them, then they're quite straight forward[21:44:37] <gehn> but it does probably require some "advanced" math and a proper academic treatment like a good course and or textbook[21:44:42] <Yaniel> nah, that's where the *real* magic starts[21:44:45] <vmt> shaders don't really fall into one category[21:44:50] <vmt> and yeah, what Yaniel said[21:45:00] <zid> once I knew shaders were basically vertex(){ for each vertex generate frags by interpolating over the face } frag() { function to run on each frag }[21:45:05] <zid> the mystery was gone[21:45:14] <Yaniel> like when you notice you don't have a multiplex instruction so you use mix instead[21:45:28] <gehn> zid +1[21:45:46] <vmt> well, i wasn't talking about the pipeline, really[21:45:50] <zid> Oh you're ghen[21:45:52] <zid> gehn[21:45:59] <gehn> that's me[21:46:02] <zid> Are you a webgl weenie[21:46:12] *** iderik <iderik!~weechat@h-162-65.A147.priv.bahnhof.se> has quit IRC (Quit: iderik)[21:46:16] <gehn> are you afraid of C++?[21:46:46] <zid> I'm afraid of it in the same way I'm afraid of a 30lbs swiss army knife with 800 tools I'd never use and they all get in each other way when you try to use them, and it doesn't fit in your pocket[21:47:11] <gehn> C++ is only pay for what you use, if you don't want to use various things no one is forcing you[21:47:19] <wrobinson> vmt: I'm good at that[21:47:31] <zid> gehn: Then you're an amateur programmer[21:47:39] <zid> And you never work with anybody else[21:48:04] <wrobinson> being lost in a jungle that is[21:48:05] <gehn> k, thanks for telling me what I am[21:48:12] <gehn> I'll take it under super serious consideration[21:48:33] <zid> It's useful to get a selection of opinions[21:48:40] <zid> rather than just blindly trusting what you think of yourself[21:48:47] <vmt> template <typename T> std::unique_ptr<std::vector<std::tuple *foo>>> addABitOfCamelCase { return std::shared_ptr<std::somethingsomething>>(some_snake_case_to_throw_in_there); }[21:49:01] <vmt> yeah, C++ is just fine.[21:49:02] <gehn> opinions from people who are in a position to judge something accurately maybe[21:49:49] <vmt> people like to think C++ is "pay for what you use" but instead it becomes this github consensus of "modern C++" which mandates you use all the latest and the greatest "language features" or else...[21:50:03] <zid> You don't have to, but other people certainly will[21:50:11] <zid> and it doesn't make the tooling any easier to write even if you don't[21:50:15] <gehn> because they're good and useful features[21:50:28] <gehn> if you are the project lead you can make those decisions[21:50:32] <vmt> they're useful in the sense of metaprogramming, at best.[21:50:40] <zid> C++ is an amazing metalanguage, imo[21:50:54] <zid> It's a language for creating programming lanauges in such that main.cpp is some bizzare BASIC[21:51:01] <zid> wrapping 40 million lines of templates and overloaded shifts[21:51:15] <vmt> zid: i'd agree to that, sure[21:51:54] <wrobinson> intriguing - zid, what's your language of choice?[21:52:15] <zid> wrobinson: Typically C, it's old and busted but there's not really much that's less busted[21:52:18] <wrobinson> I don't really have one yet (at least regarding graphics programming)[21:52:35] <zid> C++ works sort of nicely for graphics programming, because metalanguages are pretty useful for it[21:52:50] <wrobinson> i'm only in recent months (couple years) getting my head into c and cpp[21:53:17] <vmt> C offers you pretty much just the basic functionality, and is relatively close to writing asm. And because of this, it doesn't really matter how old it is[21:53:17] <wrobinson> that, and it's hard to find good libraries for other langs (at least in my brief experience)[21:53:31] <zid> You can make your 'my actual code' files have native vector addition etc[21:53:41] <zid> as long as you don't mind the horrific backend actually implementing all the gunk[21:54:05] <vmt> by relatively close, i mean that it's not that difficult to infer asm. before you start to kick in -O2/3[21:54:26] <gehn> by all the gunk you mean the difference between add(vec, vec) and operator+(vec, vec)?[21:54:30] <gehn> yeah, tons of "gunk" there[21:55:06] <vmt> operator overloading is something i wish C had, however it would really only serve for a niche application so at the end of the day, it's not exactly needed[21:55:43] <vmt> you could just do it via a preprocessor, but i've never felt the need to go that far[21:56:49] <zid> vmt: I'm very very glad it doesn't, in terms of actually having to read other people's code[21:57:04] <zid> You'd dilute C's main strength doing things like that[21:57:29] <vmt> well, by a niche application i meant for example vector arithmetic[21:57:51] <vmt> where it's really implicit what goes down behind the scenes[21:57:59] <zid> You can attempt to use a "safe subset" of C++ in that case[21:58:00] <vmt> though sure, you get people abusing it[21:58:08] <zid> which is a phrase that makes me cringe personally[21:59:08] <zid> There's a rather substantial issue with being able to implement operators in the language itself in that you have to add a side-channel to propagate error information[21:59:28] <zid> Look at the error handling scenarios for iostream[22:00:00] <chrisf> iostream is an absurd mess[22:00:07] <chrisf> you don't have to screw up that badly[22:00:15] <zid> And now you have to have special tooling such that you can be told the error was in a + b rather than in some implementation 400 files away[22:00:16] <chrisf> but yes[22:00:22] <zid> or some absolute nonsense managled line number[22:00:26] <vmt> i'll give you that[22:01:12] *** ImQ009 <ImQ009!~ImQ009@unaffiliated/imq009> has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving)[22:01:34] <zid> if it compiles, anyway, if it doesn't enjoy the 400 lines of gibberish :D[22:01:43] *** ciaala <ciaala!~crypt@2a02:120b:2c1f:5f40:6ef0:49ff:feee:4777> has quit IRC (Quit: Konversation terminated!)[22:01:46] <vmt> remember kids, if it compiles, it works[22:01:58] <zid> That'e the sort of thing I'd add to C[22:02:05] <zid> more contracts with the compiler[22:02:11] <gehn> if you know what you're doing then it's not really possible for the vector addition operation to actually have a problem, but of course you need to write and test your vector addition well[22:02:26] <zid> more type annotations, more warnings, more errors, go go go[22:02:28] <gehn> but that's pretty trivial, it's a well defined operation[22:02:35] <vmt> gehn: but the problems arise when you generalize it beyond vectors[22:03:26] <zid> Even something like "I did a divide by zero inside an overloaded operator" means a shit load of ecosystem needing to be available to handle that[22:03:41] <gehn> vector addition will never divide by zero, by definition[22:03:44] <gehn> nor will dot product[22:03:45] <zid> exceptions, special debuggers, etc[22:04:17] <vmt> gehn: so you're just using overloaded operators for vector /addition/?[22:04:36] <zid> and now we're back to 'safe subset', so what, C++ has a good language hiding inside it, bring a shovel?[22:04:50] <vmt> just bring a torch, really[22:05:23] <gehn> I don't seem to have the problems you seem to claim exist on these specific topics so far[22:06:26] *** Nicmavr <Nicmavr!~Nicmavr@unaffiliated/nicmavr> has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer)[22:07:18] <Yaniel> yeah, C++ is totally trivial[22:07:22] <Yaniel> just don't write bad code[22:08:15] *** bonux <bonux!~user@84.237.163.123> has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection)[22:08:33] *** Nicmavr <Nicmavr!~Nicmavr@unaffiliated/nicmavr> has joined ##OpenGL[22:08:48] <gehn> the considerations are largely the same in C... "just don't write bad code", C++ basically is the same, but with more features[22:08:54] <gehn> if you dislike those features, then I guess don't use it[22:10:52] <gehn> besides, since when has "trivial to learn" been the primary motivator for any of us to do or use something?[22:10:56] <vmt> said features make it great for metaprogramming, and at the same time obfuscates readability and the inner workings[22:11:04] <gehn> if that's the only criteria, maybe you should be using Dreamweaver?[22:11:27] <gehn> vmt, separation of implementation from interface is a bad thing now?[22:13:42] <vmt> is that the only thing which sets c/++ apart? besides, similarly it can be achieved in c[22:14:01] <zid> I'd wager in practice C does a much better job of that[22:14:09] <zid> due to the idiomatic way to implement things is opaque types[22:14:19] <zid> rather than classes where everything is in the header you included[22:14:28] <vmt> yes.[22:14:59] <zid> again, you gain a thing by using the fancy feature, but it integrates so poorly there's a massive bucket load of extra considerations[22:15:44] <zid> Now your incrementatal compilations are fucked, you're fucked for linking because there's no standard ABI, etc[22:16:40] <gehn> strawman[22:16:51] <gehn> you don't need to put everything for a class in the header, though you can if you want, that's your choice[22:17:20] <vmt> and then again, you're back to implementing it the c way[22:17:27] <gehn> er, no? not at all?[22:17:52] <gehn> a class is still a class[22:17:54] <zid> vmt: "Just don't use any C++ features" "Wtf no"[22:18:11] <zid> we're on about the 8th iteration of this loop now :P[22:18:21] <vmt> gehn: surely, but you'll be back to opaque types[22:18:26] <gehn> you can split the definition (implementation) of the class member functions into a .cpp file and their declarations in the .h[22:18:32] <gehn> that doesn't make it not a class[22:18:45] <vmt> and that's not what i meant, either[22:18:58] <vmt> zid: i figure. possibly time to call it quits[22:19:55] <gehn> ABI is also not really an issue in practice, at least not for applications level dev - choose a compiler for your project, use it, done[22:24:42] *** slime <slime!~slime73@blk-215-81-93.eastlink.ca> has joined ##OpenGL[22:29:49] *** Vasco is now known as Vasco_O[22:39:12] *** CoolerZ <CoolerZ!~coolerext@14.139.38.171> has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving)[22:50:10] *** immibis <immibis!~immibis@222-153-90-196-fibre.sparkbb.co.nz> has joined ##OpenGL[22:54:45] *** binezap <binezap!~binezap@96.53.62.146> has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection)[23:07:32] *** immibis <immibis!~immibis@222-153-90-196-fibre.sparkbb.co.nz> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)[23:11:17] <derhass> gehn: ABI is often an issue for application level development[23:13:09] <gehn> no u[23:13:58] <derhass> not that I'm not arguing C vs. C++ here[23:15:14] <derhass> s/not/note[23:25:08] *** cfoch <cfoch!uid153227@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-nexvlqvlavuhwkxd> has joined ##OpenGL[23:59:52] *** ciaala <ciaala!~crypt@2a02:120b:2c1f:5f40:6ef0:49ff:feee:4777> has joined ##OpenGL