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[00:27:40] <BPL> blackpawn: Hiya mate \:O, how's life?
[00:31:46] <blackpawn> hey BPL :)
[00:31:55] <blackpawn> alright, u?
[00:32:57] <BPL> just waiting for some qt buildings to get cooked with all cores at max speed so I've got bored :D , sorry for the ping btw, hopefully didn't interrupt any serious coding session
[00:33:19] <blackpawn> nah, just finished some stuff and about to make dinner
[00:34:02] <BPL> ah, cool... btw, ever tried to uncompress/dump some 4k crinkler intro? Yesterday I've been investing some time on that task
[00:34:57] <blackpawn> hmm what for? to see uncompressed size
[00:37:02] <BPL> well, no reason really, right now i'd like to be able to play with atrium to learn some of the inner tricks... guess having the uncompressed exe would save some time each time I spawn it on the debugger
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[00:37:27] <blackpawn> ah true
[00:37:27] <BPL> play = dump the intro to some nice .asm I can compile myself
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[15:46:18] <BPL> personally, I find these raymarched 1quad shaders really boring stuff. I mean, yeah, they're cool to draw complex geometry with some few simple math formulas, but... what's the mistery behind them? Plus, mostly of them run really slow on medium-end gpu cards :'(
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[15:47:21] <derhass> BPL: I alwyas like it when peole have fun with maths
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[15:50:51]
<BPL> derhass: Don't get me wrong, yeah, the fact people are having fun with maths is awesome, i also like that, but... my point is, what's the mistery behind these shaders? For instance, imagine this one https://www.shadertoy.com/view/wlj3zV , the output of that shader is really cool but if I look at the code the "magic" is gone to me... now, if you achieved the same effect with some "real meshes" that'd certainly impress me for sure
[15:51:29] <derhass> BPL: I think you're searching for something which just isn't there
[15:51:47] <BPL> but of course, achieving the same effect with real meshes wouldn't be a doodling of 1 or 2 hours, it'd be harder
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[15:56:51] <BPL> yeah, sure, quite impressive output but I still see a huge mathy implicit formula where you can't "play" with it... dunno. But again, do't get me wrong, if people are having fun creating these type of visuals and improving their maths skills that's fantastic
[15:58:44] <derhass> yeah, it is taking more the shapes which are easily to describe implicitly, then modelling a well-specified shape
[15:59:11] <derhass> but really, it is not meant to be
[15:59:53] <derhass> this is also why the first hello world raytracer anyone writes is usually a couple of spheres reflecting each other
[16:00:31] <BPL> yeah... and again my previous comment "I find these raymarched 1quad shaders really boring stuff" didn't mean to be harsh, I'd never/ever critizice someone else's job when they're just having fun
[16:01:20] <jbracey> BPL, I think that one day, one might be able to make more dynamic scenes with raymarching. That would be the mystory part of it
[16:01:33]
<BPL> just saying than personally I find it more appealing simulations like these ones https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x8Fo2slT2WA than 1fs raymarched quads... now, you make that type of simulations in real-time and I'd become speachless
[16:02:11] <BPL> jbracey: Well, if someday raymarched scenes may become really "dynamic" I'll be all in for sure :)
[16:02:53] <jbracey> Indeed
[16:03:19] <jbracey> But at present, it's a mystory...and a bit hacky
[16:07:40] <jbracey> Btw, demo runs about 30-50fps on my mobile device
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[17:55:04] <DrGonzo> hi folks. how's the development on amd these days?
[17:55:18] <DrGonzo> i've been an intel+nvidia person for a long time and im thinking about building a new machine and might go amd
[17:55:36] <DrGonzo> anything to watch for?
[17:55:46] <DrGonzo> how's working with the open source driver?
[17:57:09] <DrGonzo> (not trying to start a flame war, just want to know the pro/cons before making the investment)
[18:09:00] <Yaniel> The opensource driver is great AFAIK
[18:09:30] <Yaniel> nothing like the mess that was fglrx
[18:10:10] <Yaniel> what to watch out for: you want a *very* recent kernel & mesa
[18:10:38] <Yaniel> basically whatever the latest released versions are
[18:10:43] <derhass> does linux kernel even have full navi support already?
[18:11:33] <Yaniel> not sure
[18:12:04] <DrGonzo> i'm actually more interested by good vr support than good linux support
[18:12:34] <DrGonzo> but good to know
[18:13:04] <DrGonzo> the development tools/sdks is also a factor
[18:13:18] <Yaniel> no idea about vr except that openxr is supposedly cool
[18:13:23] <DrGonzo> is nvidia still a lot more developer friendly?
[18:13:44] <Yaniel> depends on your definition for developer friendly I guess
[18:14:29] <DrGonzo> you're right... the definition could vary
[18:14:42] <Yaniel> nvidia still doesn't care much for specs
[18:14:47] <DrGonzo> im refering to tools, community, bug fixing on amd's part
[18:14:52] <DrGonzo> lol
[18:15:36] <DrGonzo> i ended up understanding that nvidia was considered "developer friendly" because they would team up with business and hack their drivers to give them performances
[18:15:46] <DrGonzo> (the tools weren't bad as well)
[18:16:00] <Yaniel> AMD has always done that too AFAIK
[18:16:07] <DrGonzo> im sure they have
[18:16:12] <Yaniel> they just didn't make as much of a show of ut
[18:16:32] <DrGonzo> some companies are also better ran than others
[18:16:34] <Yaniel> but if you have seen all the GPUOpen stuff, that is AMD
[18:16:50] <DrGonzo> i had to deal with amd at some point in my career and i didn't exactly come out with the best experience and opinion of them
[18:16:51] <derhass> the gpuopen stuff is mainly marketing
[18:17:00] <DrGonzo> but it's a big company. different teams, different people
[18:17:26] <Yaniel> I'm told the debuggers/profilersfrom both companies are decent, and then there is renderdoc
[18:18:06] <Yaniel> which is entirelt 3rd party
[18:18:12] <DrGonzo> and for the open source driver... isn't the trend that everyone is going to vulkan and opengl will die?
[18:18:16] <derhass> DrGonzo: I'm not sure what you mean by open source drivers if you don't care about linux
[18:18:31] <DrGonzo> derhass, i care about it but not as much as the vr aspect
[18:19:43] <derhass> I don't get it
[18:20:03] <DrGonzo> you know how sometime you make a list of priorities for a certain thing?
[18:20:18] <DrGonzo> well "vr" sits higher than "linux support" on that list
[18:20:26] <DrGonzo> it's a personal thing. you don't have to get it
[18:23:19] <derhass> that was not what my question was about
[18:25:34] <Yaniel> and no not everyone is moving to vulkan
[18:25:54] <Yaniel> people do move from opengl to various abstractions though
[18:26:16] <Yaniel> which more often than not are API-agnostic
[18:27:05] <DrGonzo> you're talking about unity?
[18:27:47] *** bungy is now known as bungey
[18:28:18] <DrGonzo> derhass, what question?
[18:29:21] <BPL> I guess the first question here is how much money you're willing to spend for a gpu card, low/medium-end territory or high-end? If it's for high-end/business I'd definitely go with NVIDIA for sure, if it's for low/medium personal/gaming i guess it doesn't really matter too much, AMD & NVIDIA will probably fit well, although you'd probably get cheaper prizes with AMD though
[18:29:35] <DrGonzo> i care about having a gpu where i have an open source driver that i can experiment with (and yes it would be done under linux) but i don't care about that as much as vr since i don't have a practical use for an open source driver right now
[18:30:01] <DrGonzo> i thought working with mesa was nice and it'd be cool if all my opengl development could be done with an open source drivre
[18:30:11] <DrGonzo> i think it'd facilitate a lot of the integration work
[18:30:18] <DrGonzo> but i'm not blocked on that
[18:32:11] <BPL> I'm curious, why do you care drivers being open source? Are you going to develop/submit patches for such a drivers?
[18:32:26] <DrGonzo> because when it crashes in the driver, i can see why
[18:32:36] <DrGonzo> looking at code is nicer than looking at assembler
[18:34:26] <BPL> right... If you like drivers development I guess :P . I've got outdated nvidia drivers and it's extremely rare to get any crashes, of course, that's what you expect from closed-source software from a nice company, ensured quality
[18:34:40] <DrGonzo> i bump into this all time... is there really a situation where it is better to not have the source code of a library that you're using?
[18:34:47] <DrGonzo> some people seem to think so\
[18:35:18] <BPL> well, time is really valuable and adding another open-source box that will waste my time is really not cool :)
[18:35:22] <DrGonzo> i dunno, my nvidia driver is not recent
[18:35:27] <DrGonzo> and we still crash it all the time
[18:35:40] <BPL> mmm
[18:35:53] <DrGonzo> we push stuff pretty hard too
[18:36:22] <DrGonzo> but this stuff is not easy to debug.
[18:36:31] <BPL> so when you say "we" I assume you want high-end gpu for business?
[18:36:49] <DrGonzo> yeah
[18:37:08] <BPL> in my experience, NVIDIA is quite awesome and technical support has always been great
[18:37:09] <DrGonzo> (my original discussion was about a personal computer that i want to build and i sort of drifted off)
[18:42:22] <BPL> and I'm curious, you say you crash it all the time... maybe problem is not in the drivers? Few years ago, we also used to push further some boxes with gtx980 with few hundred of thousands of renders per day with no sweat and almost no crashes, of course, if you'd get a crash you'd restart gracefully the app, but those crashes weren't because the driver
[18:44:08] <BPL> anyway, if I was you I'd start to compare the same generations between AMD & NVIDIA, although not sure for the latest NVIDIA's you'll find AMD's equivalents
[18:44:22] <Yaniel> I'm talking about stuff like bgfx and wgpu
[18:44:50] <Yaniel> if you do care about opensource drivers then nvidia is trash
[18:46:24] <DrGonzo> BPL, nah it's just us doing fishy things or using badly the driver
[18:46:45] <Yaniel> and if you do fishy things then nvidia's closed source drivers are trash too :P
[18:46:56] <Yaniel> (or the only useful ones, dpending on your perspective)
[18:47:36] <DrGonzo> i mean, you don't have to do much opengl work to get crashes in the driver user space
[18:47:53] <zid> all you have to do to crash mine is have a warm day available :P
[18:47:57] <DrGonzo> or just trcaing back why you got a glerror can be easierif you have the source
[18:48:02] <derhass> speaking of nvidia drivers: nvidia-modeset: ERROR: GPU:0: Idling display engine timed out: 0x0000987d:0:0
[18:48:17] <zid> Impressive, that means absolutely nothing to anybody
[18:48:18] <Yaniel> just set a debug callback instead of bothering with glerror
[18:48:21] <DrGonzo> that's an awesome error message
[18:48:41] <zid> I'm guessing it needed the gpu to go idle but it never did, maybe
[18:48:42] <Yaniel> lolmodeset
[18:48:50] <derhass> it froze the system for a minute
[18:48:56] <Yaniel> IIRC they were about as hostile towards that as they are to gbm
[18:49:06] <DrGonzo> tdr?
[18:50:09] <DrGonzo> so with an opensource driver, couldn't you just hook a debugger and see what it's waiting on?
[18:50:12] <Yaniel> "kernel is too GPL for us, we don't want to implement modesetting"
[18:50:14] <DrGonzo> or what's running
[18:50:26] <BPL> at the end of the day... it's all about $$$ and size of the company, if you're looking for scaling up your architecture prizes matter... NVIDIA isn't cheap really but you'll get what you paid for
[18:50:32] <Yaniel> "we don't like gbm, eglstreams for everyone take it or leave it"
[18:50:40] <Yaniel> so far seems like everyone has decided to leave it
[18:52:12] <DrGonzo> tracking down certain gpu related issues can get very expensive
[18:53:00] <zid> nvidia has a consumer kind of blows, the shitty things die super easy and they're retardedly expensive
[18:53:03] <DrGonzo> that where i would think that having all the code implicated might help you figure out why things end up doing what they're doing
[18:53:06] <zid> and they don't sell old carps any cheaper than new really
[18:53:18] <zid> s/has/as
[18:53:45] <zid> a 670 still costs as much as the cheapest 10 series card
[18:53:57] <DrGonzo> that's ridiculous
[18:54:27] <DrGonzo> i know crypto is picking back up but didn't gpu become cheap after the bitcoin crash?
[18:54:44] <zid> only because there was a dump
[18:54:46] <Yaniel> cheaper than during the peak of the mining boom
[18:54:48] <zid> not because they got cheaper
[18:54:54] <Yaniel> not exactly "cheap" though
[18:54:56] <DrGonzo> you'd think a lot of those farms were liquidating their cards
[18:55:18] <zid> they were, hence the price drop at the time
[18:55:25] <zid> so instead of massvely inflated, they were normal :P
[18:55:30] <DrGonzo> i've also seen people try to sell at very high price. they're probably the ones who bought at 15k$
[18:55:50] <zid> There are four 670 4GB on ebay, £90, £150, £90, £110
[18:56:13] <zid> 1050ti 4GB = same price
[18:56:53] <DrGonzo> maybe the buyers are companies trying to be backward compatible
[18:57:02] <DrGonzo> it's not easy finding those old cards sometime to debug something
[18:57:21] <zid> meanwhile you can get a retardedly competitive intel cpu for £25
[18:58:13] <DrGonzo> im thinking of getting a 2070
[18:58:28] <zid> I want a 980 ti, fastest card you can get with an analogue out
[18:58:35] <DrGonzo> thx BPL
[18:58:42] <DrGonzo> never got a straight answer
[18:59:59] <zid> Have you seen the price of an external ramdac btw?
[19:00:00] <zid> It's insane
[19:00:28] <DrGonzo> i was thinking it shouldn't be all that expensive
[19:00:31] <DrGonzo> but i dont really use them
[19:00:36] <DrGonzo> so i dont know
[19:01:07] <zid> Thankfully the prices stay the same as they get faster
[19:01:18] <DrGonzo> anything video isn't cheap
[19:01:49] <DrGonzo> why do you need an analog signal?
[19:01:55] <zid> CRTs
[19:02:03] <DrGonzo> and you're using those for what?
[19:02:10] <zid> low input latency and nice pictures? :p
[19:02:20] <DrGonzo> still better than digital?
[19:02:23] <derhass> actually, the cheap displayport -> vga adapters from china work nicely
[19:02:24] <Yaniel> retro gaming obviously
[19:02:32] <Yaniel> pixel art ftw
[19:02:35] <derhass> they get a bit hot sometimes, though
[19:02:37] <zid> derhass: nicely as in 0 latency or 'works fine'
[19:02:51] <derhass> there is no zero latency
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[19:03:00] <DrGonzo> you're making a vr headset with a CRT?
[19:03:01] <DrGonzo> :P
[19:03:02] <zid> alright then half a scanline or whatever
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[19:03:53] <derhass> I didn't measure latency
[19:06:34] <DarkUranium> I'd imagine you might get a lower latency by just using an LCD, than a DisplayPort->VGA adapter
[19:06:56] <derhass> that doesn't have to be the case
[19:07:07] <zid> You'd be surprised how shit the latency on most LCDs are, and how low the latency *can* be if you design the adapter not to have lag
[19:07:32] <DrGonzo> and you need this ultra low latency for what purpose?
[19:07:35] <DrGonzo> retro gaming?
[19:07:39] <zid> yer games
[19:07:42] <DrGonzo> wow
[19:07:49] <Yaniel> thsoe sweet, sweet 10fps games
[19:07:52] <zid> You can feel the difference even on low latency arcade LCDs over a CRT
[19:08:29] <DrGonzo> farout
[19:08:54] <DrGonzo> google stadia isn't for you guys lol
[19:10:31] <DrGonzo> i've spent my whole youth traveling at the back of a car with my gameboy.
[19:10:42] <DrGonzo> you know when you go to sleep and you still see the blocks fall?
[19:10:51] <zid> nope because I always play in infinite gravity :P
[19:10:56] <zid> there is no fall
[19:11:00] <DrGonzo> heh
[19:11:03] <zid> 1200 is basically unplayable even without lag, you have as many frames of lock delay as it takes for the piece to even reach the wall
[19:11:25] <zid> plus fighting games are hugely reaction speed based etc
[19:11:30] <zid> racing games want it
[19:12:49] <zid> for modern games you can jsut get away with cranking the fps to 800 and the refresh rate to 144 to get nice low lag
[19:13:11] <zid> but when they're 60fps locked all you can do is get your equipment as low as possible if you want a nicer experience
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[23:48:38] <execi> Hey, a question. Using a framebuffer with a multisample-texture, when I blit it to backbuffer, do the sample counts for the context and the framebuffer have to match?
[23:48:57] <derhass> execi: no
[23:49:26] <derhass> execi: but the real limits are more complicated
[23:50:25] <derhass> execi: you can only do the multisample resolve that way
[23:50:38] <derhass> i.e. you can blit a multisampled fbo to an non-multisampled one
[23:50:51] <derhass> or you can blit to exacly the same sample count (iirc)
[23:51:11] <derhass> but you cannot blit between arbitray sample counts (for obvoious reasons)
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[23:54:14] <execi> mmmyeah. i figured the ms resolving would *somehow* take care of it (heh). i chose an fb config with 16 samples, created an fb with a texture with 4 samples and was tearing my hair out figuring what's going on
[23:55:22] <derhass> it should just get an GL_INVALID_OPERATION error
[23:56:35] <execi> iirc it didn't
[23:56:40] <execi> though, let me double check that
[23:57:20] <derhass> if you're not running in a debug context with a debug callback, you're doing it wrong anyway ;)
[23:58:08] <execi> i probably should. for some reason i thought it'd be the texture allocation which would raise an error
[23:58:15] <execi> but yeah, it's the actual blit that does it