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[04:16:47] <reduz> can anyone point me to an example usage of DebugMessageControlARB ? there is like a hundred parameter combinations in the extension doc, I have no idea what to use
[04:17:08] <reduz> I just want to see regular errors printed to console
[04:18:54] <xaxxon> reduz: is it that complicated?  there are 4 methods
[04:19:05] <xaxxon> http://legacy.lwjgl.org/javadoc/org/lwjgl/opengl/ARBDebugOutput.html
[04:19:10] <xaxxon> 5
[04:19:18] <xaxxon> oops
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[04:19:52] <reduz> yeah but a lot of arguments for DebugMessageControlARB
[04:19:54] <xaxxon> that's java... but still you pick and choose between the optionsn for each parameter that are listed above
[04:20:33] <xaxxon> reduz: its' long, but have you read: https://www.opengl.org/registry/specs/ARB/debug_output.txt
[04:20:57] <xaxxon> DebugMessageCallbackARB takes a callback
[04:21:16] <xaxxon> I've never used this, but I already have a decent idea of how to approach it
[04:21:27] <xaxxon> and then you customize by turning on/off different types of errors
[04:21:40] <reduz> I did, but I honestly have no idea what common arguments for it are
[04:21:57] <xaxxon> reduz: try just setting the callback and see what you get
[04:22:11] <xaxxon> All messages are initially enabled
[04:22:11] <xaxxon>     unless their assigned severity is DEBUG_SEVERITY_LOW_ARB.
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[04:23:29] <reduz> ok, will try, thanks!
[04:23:42] <xaxxon> I mean, ideally you don't get anything, so I'd just leave it as is until you either get too many messages (which you should probably fix instead of ignore) or you get errors that aren't reported, then you turn on low priority messages and see if anything else happens
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[04:30:16] <reduz> hmm i'm not really getting any messages
[04:30:29] <reduz> not even the ones i put via glDebugMessageInsertARB
[04:33:33] <xaxxon> dunno.   os x doesn't support it
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[04:41:06] <reduz> I'm trying this (X11 Mesa) - http://pastebin.com/yi3xaBYt
[04:41:09] <reduz> still i get nothing
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[04:41:27] <reduz> also set a callback, but the callback is never called
[04:41:36] <reduz> so I honestly have no idea, this extension is really confusing
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[04:43:09] <xaxxon> reduz: that I don't know
[04:43:19] <xaxxon> make some intentionally bad opengl calls?
[04:44:38] <reduz> yeah, neither than or using glDebugMessageInsertARB works
[04:44:46] <reduz> with any of the stuff i enabled categories
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[04:48:15] <chrisf> let's see the rest of your debug setup code, then
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[04:51:35] <chrisf> specifically interested in whether you're turning it on.
[04:53:08] <reduz> just read in some post that you may hve to enable debug in the context creation
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[04:53:45] <chrisf> reduz: either in creation, or enable the flag. mesa doesnt care either way
[04:53:58] <reduz> chrisf, http://pastebin.com/asqEKZBQ
[04:54:06] <reduz> that's all I'm doing
[04:54:14] <reduz> i don't get the message "hello"
[04:54:22] <chrisf> i dont see glEnable(GL_DEBUG_OUTPUT_ARB)
[04:55:00] <xaxxon> yay hopefully it's that simple to fix
[04:55:26] <chrisf> you dont need all that control crap, that's all turned on by default.
[04:55:48] <chrisf> but you do need the master switch :)
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[04:56:08] <reduz> chrisf, I have no idea what GL_DEBUG_OUTPUT_ARB is, it's not in the extension specification
[04:56:19] <reduz> also it does not compile
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[04:56:46] <chrisf> oh, hang on, im thinking of the KHR_debug equivalent.
[04:57:21] <reduz> glEnable(GL_DEBUG_OUTPUT); compiled though
[04:57:33] <chrisf> use https://www.opengl.org/registry/specs/KHR/debug.txt rather than the old ARB version.
[04:57:38] <reduz> how wow it works, thanks!
[04:57:49] <reduz> that was not mentioned in the extension
[04:59:43] <chrisf> reduz: right, in the old ARB extension, the only master enable is the debug bit in context creation.
[05:01:16] <chrisf> sorry for the bad steer
[05:02:04] <chrisf> you really want the KHR version -- it has the enable you're using, no suffixes, and also has some other goodies, like object labels
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[05:03:26] <xaxxon> reduz: sweet :)
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[05:33:55] <funfunctor> Hi
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[05:34:15] <funfunctor> What does "register" do in a GLSL shader?
[05:34:48] <funfunctor> Actually I am just trying to understand the shader in the answer to this question: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/944713/help-with-pixel-shader-effect-for-brightness-and-contrast
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[08:16:49] <btipling> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Po8r5ODLLE
[08:16:55] <btipling> getting better with the camera controls
[08:17:00] <btipling> still pretty jittery
[08:17:23] <btipling> gonna focus on learning about lighting more than tweaking the camera stuff though
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[13:01:33] <coolkid87> float alpha = max(0, color.a - 0.5) > 0 ? color.a : 0;
[13:01:35] <coolkid87> How can I remove the conditional operator in favour of min/max like functions?
[13:03:32] <coolkid87> Sorry for silly question, but just can't get an answer by myself
[13:05:07] <karalaine> umm, just remove it? its always at least zero anyway
[13:05:07] <Bloodust> soo
[13:05:14] <karalaine> or did I misinterpret
[13:05:32] <Bloodust> if color.a is 0 then 0 else color.a
[13:05:47] <Bloodust> no wait
[13:05:50] <Shockk> coolkid87: the max of 0 and (any number) will always be >= 0
[13:05:56] <coolkid87> my goal is to discard any alpha value below/upto 0.5 and return the original alpha value for anything above 0.5
[13:06:00] <Shockk> and in the case where it's 0, the result will be 0 anyway
[13:06:23] <Bloodust> you kind of need condition for using discard
[13:06:32] <Bloodust> unless your discard means alpha==0
[13:06:42] <coolkid87> yes that
[13:06:57] <coolkid87> by discard I mean alpha = 0
[13:07:16] <coolkid87> sorry, not the discard keyword
[13:08:01] <The_Black_Phoeni> on Linux how do I force games to use the core profile instead of the compatibility profile?
[13:08:25] <Bloodust> The_Black_Phoeni when ou request opengl context you tell it to use core profile
[13:08:37] <coolkid87> Shockk: max of (0, 0.3 - 0.5) = 0 but max of (0, 0.6 - 0.5) = 0.1
[13:08:55] <coolkid87> but I want to return 0.6 instead of 0.1
[13:08:56] <Bloodust> so if(color.a < 0.5 ) alpha=0; else alpha=color.a ?
[13:09:23] <coolkid87> doesn't branching bad for shader?
[13:09:27] <coolkid87> isn't*
[13:09:34] <Bloodust> its not that bad these days
[13:09:49] <Bloodust> id just use 'if' unless it causes problems
[13:09:51] <coolkid87> Oh
[13:10:16] <The_Black_Phoeni> basically there's a couple games that require 4.1 or above yet they are defaulting to the 3.0 compatibility profile and complaining about missing extensions instead of using the 4.4 core profile
[13:10:18] <Shockk> coolkid87: ah sorry I didn't actually see the - 0.5 part
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[13:12:07] <karalaine> The_Black_Phoeni, thats either problemt with your driver or with the games themselves
[13:12:21] <karalaine> or maybe even your gpu is too old
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[13:12:30] <The_Black_Phoeni> other games that require 4.1 or above work fine
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[13:12:51] <Bloodust> The_Black_Phoeni what gpu do you have
[13:13:00] <The_Black_Phoeni> such as DiRT Showdown, Borderlands and Bioshock Infinie
[13:14:25] <The_Black_Phoeni> Intel HD 530
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[13:17:45] <Bloodust> well I dont know
[13:17:54] <Bloodust> it seems like a newer gpu
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[13:22:01] <slime> games written using the compatibility profile likely won't work with Core Profile GL
[13:22:27] <slime> so trying to get them to use Core Profile wouldn't necessarily help you
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[13:25:29] <The_Black_Phoeni> most of my games are using the core profile
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[13:26:43] <karalaine> but still if they want some extensions, they will probably need some features that are missing either from your driver or from your gpu
[13:27:07] <karalaine> I guess you have ensured that you use latest driver?
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[13:41:56] <coolkid87> Found the solution, :')
[13:41:57] <coolkid87> float alpha = max(0, color.a - 0.5) * color.a / (color.a - 0.5);
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[13:46:39] <The_Black_Phoeni> yes, using the latest drivers
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[13:47:29] <The_Black_Phoeni> I highly doubt it's drivers because other games run just fine using the core profile
[13:47:44] <Bloodust> coolkid87 color.a = 0.5 now 0.5-0.5 is 0
[13:47:48] <Bloodust> and you divided by zero
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[13:48:11] <coolkid87> facepalm
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[13:49:45] <karalaine> The_Black_Phoeni, different games use different capabilities
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[13:49:59] <karalaine> its not just core or compability, or just certain opengl version
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[13:53:04] <karalaine> The_Black_Phoeni, do the game report certain extension missing?
[13:53:14] <karalaine> here is the page what your gpu supports on windows http://opengl.gpuinfo.org/gl_generatereport.php?reportID=1373
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[13:55:26] <coolkid87> I'll probably go with if before I get permanent brain damage
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[13:56:00] <Bloodust> it probably wont hinder your performance significally
[13:56:07] <Bloodust> might not even notice it
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[13:57:56] <coolkid87> yes, I should really get a profiler or something :)
[13:58:13] <Bloodust> when you get performance issues yup
[13:58:31] <Bloodust> but remember, "Make things work, profile, make things fast"
[13:58:34] <Bloodust> in this order
[13:59:07] <The_Black_Phoeni> GL_ARB_shader_texture_lod
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[14:00:50] <karalaine> so its missing from your gpu
[14:01:11] <karalaine> game wouldnt work on windows either, if they use opengl ther
[14:01:13] <karalaine> *there
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[14:03:25] <coolkid87> Bloodust: you're right, the task I was using this alpha thresholding for isn't working even if the thresholding logic is working
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[14:05:31] <coolkid87> I was using it to write to depth buffer in order to avoid sorting transparent textures back to front
[14:06:10] <coolkid87> It mostly works but there are some borders of textures those are visible
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[14:09:57] <coolkid87> so I thought borders must have alpha value in-between 0 and 1 in texture, hence the trial for thresholding
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[14:11:43] <coolkid87> http://imgur.com/DbAo922
[14:11:56] <coolkid87> this is what's happening
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[14:13:27] <coolkid87> gl_FragDepth = max(1.0 - alpha, min(gl_FragCoord.z, alpha))
[14:13:40] <coolkid87> I use this in shader
[14:14:24] <coolkid87> to write 1.0 in depth buffer where alpha is 0
[14:14:35] <coolkid87> so it's always behind
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[14:17:24] <The_Black_Phoeni> I'll be back on later and post my glxinfo, right now I don't have my laptop with me
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[14:18:37] <coolkid87> Any idea what's going on there?
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[14:20:09] <coolkid87> BTW, In the image those are 3 quads and on them there are 3 textures of R, G and B arcs respectively
[14:20:33] <coolkid87> quads are aligned along X,Y,Z axes
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[14:27:09] <coolkid87> sorry guys, ignore those talks. Needed to increase the threshold really high, like 0.9999, and it's gone didn't think I'd need that much value earlier
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[15:42:15] <HanZer0> Hi guys, when I call glBindImageTexture() do I need to unbind?
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[16:15:26] <Xeek> Good Morning
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[16:19:35] <HanZer0> Xeek: hi :)
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[16:24:11] <btipling> yoyo
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[16:37:35] <Domx_> hey
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[16:41:30] <Domx> Jesus, when were these rules written up?
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[16:45:15] <Mysoft> what rules?
[16:45:21] <Mysoft> which rules?
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[17:02:51] <btipling> you don't know about the rules? wtf
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[19:19:38] <Murloc992> Hey guys, how would one approach edge bevelling effect without creating bevel geometry on the edges? Would that involve some kind of edge shader?
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[20:00:34] <[_]b> Hey, I had this cool idea for a procedural shader in shadertoy but it would require a custom audio input file, is there any way to do that in shadertoy or you can only use the predefined ones?
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[20:02:23] <Helel> What're some good ways to implement 2D sprite Z-Ordering?
[20:03:43] <Nimmy> just use the z-buffer
[20:06:12] <Xeek> i just draw them in order
[20:06:19] <Nimmy> [_]b yes you can use custom music
[20:06:20] <Helel> How exactly would the Depth Buffer help me with rendering objects in the proper positions (e.g: obj A going behind B)?
[20:06:39] <Nimmy> what perspective do you use
[20:06:47] <Helel> Xeek: I'm doing something like that, but somehow I have problems with objects "fighting" to be on front
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[20:07:29] <Nimmy> if they fight to be in front you should turn off the depth buffer in that approach
[20:07:31] <Xeek> i neve rhad that problem
[20:07:54] <[_]b> Damn just saw iq released another game in shadertoy, written in glsl
[20:08:01] <[_]b> Now its breakout
[20:08:24] <Helel> Xeek: it's like it's only checking one, I believe I should be checking for each sprites surrounding the others and see which should be rendered first, but I guess that would be quite a performance hit. Should I do that? Maybe with the help of a space partition algorithm?
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[20:08:58] <Nimmy> Helel what kind of game is it?
[20:09:18] <Xeek> i just go through a vector
[20:09:25] <Helel> Nimmy: What do you mean? I'm writing my own 2D framework, trying to get this issue sorted out
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[20:09:32] <Xeek> there can't be more than one object in the same location in the vector
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[20:09:52] <Nimmy> Why cant you draw objects at a certain depth and let the z-buffer order them automatically
[20:09:53] <Helel> Nimmy: It's top down, if you meant that
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[20:10:32] <Nimmy> Helel in my game i just draw each sprite at a Z-depth proportional to its y-position (also a pseudo-topdown game)
[20:10:41] <Helel> Nimmy: Haven't really used the Depth Buffer yet, but I heard it could cause issues with transparent stuff
[20:10:42] <Nimmy> and it will automatically fix the ordering
[20:11:26] <[_]b> Nimmy, checking which should be rendered first wont cause a performance hit
[20:11:43] <Helel> Nimmy: Well, what I'm currently doing is sorting out my entities based on their Y position before rendering
[20:11:43] <Nimmy> [_]b wrong person?
[20:11:49] <[_]b> oh right, I meant Helel
[20:11:49] <[_]b> sorry
[20:12:09] <[_]b> Helel, You need to state-sort them anyway, so might as well do this sorting automatically
[20:12:10] <Helel> [_]b: Yeah, guess I'll have to try that out as well
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[20:12:30] <Helel> [_]b: By automatically you mean through Depth Buffer?
[20:12:45] <Nimmy> there should be no problem with transparency using the depth buffer
[20:12:52] <[_]b> No I mean, since you're already state sorting, sorting in the correct draw order is just a bonus
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[20:13:22] <Helel> I'll see what I can do, but somehow I'm having problems, dunno
[20:13:34] <[_]b> Hmm
[20:13:52] <Helel> Didn't really think it would cause me this many issues, lol
[20:14:40] <[_]b> Also yeah the depth buffer shouldnt cause issues
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[20:15:22] <Helel> Do I only need to enable it and clear its buffer bit and that's it?
[20:15:52] <Nimmy> enable depth testing, clear the buffer every frame and draw your sprite at depths given by the user
[20:18:12] <Helel> Does that mean I should use my depth as Z in my shader? Sorry, never used the Depth Buffer so far
[20:18:23] <[_]b> It's automatic
[20:18:43] <Helel> Then something is wrong, because some stuff disappeared
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[20:18:51] <[_]b> :o
[20:19:34] <Nimmy> yes, you just treat it like 3D
[20:19:36] <Nimmy> z is depth
[20:20:56] <Nimmy> Helel https://github.com/JulianThijssen/Volterra2D/blob/master/Volterra/src/graphics/nim/volterra/Canvas.java
[20:21:32] <Nimmy> look at drawImage / drawRect and stuff
[20:22:28] <Helel> Nimmy: K, ty, I'll check that out
[20:22:49] <[_]b> Oh I guess I misunderstood the question, yes the z coordinate is your depth, but the depth buffer is drawn automatically, you don't need to do anything special in your shader (unless you really want to like linearize the depth buffer for some reason)
[20:23:53] <Helel> [_]b: Yeah, well, that was my fault i guess, should've phrased that better. What I meant was, as Nimmy said, treat my 2D as 3D
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[20:29:20] <[_]b> Helel, If you end up having strange problems something like gdebugger/codexl can help figure it out quickly
[20:30:09] <Helel> [_]b: Never used these, I'll make sure to check them out, just in case. Thanks
[20:30:28] <[_]b> Helel, They can draw the depth buffer among other things, so you don't have to manually do it yourself
[20:30:31] <[_]b> Helps debugging
[20:30:36] <Helel> Nice
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[20:31:40] <[_]b> Now if only there was a tool to tell you what stupid things youre doing in terms of performance... :-)
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[20:35:10] <Helel> [_]b: A profiler would be the closest thing, I guess
[20:35:35] <[_]b> The problem is it doesnt tell you what exactly youre doing wrong :(
[20:35:42] <[_]b> I.e. what the solution to the bottleneck is
[20:35:44] <Helel> [_]b: Indeed! Would be too easy
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[20:36:13] <Helel> [_]b: But, well, doing stupid things and learning from them is one way to get better
[20:36:40] <[_]b> Yeah
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[20:48:08] <[_]b> :( everyone on shadertoy is so good at making these crazy complicated shaders
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[20:48:53] <foobaz> yea some of those shaders blow my mind
[20:49:39] <[_]b> it took me about 2 hours of reading and tinkering with a shader just to figure out what it really does
[20:50:06] <[_]b> someone had to figure all that out
[20:50:10] <[_]b> from scratch
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[21:31:47] <noizex> well, these shaders are like demos of old
[21:31:57] <noizex> I liked watching them but was never much into making
[21:32:42] <noizex> most of shadertoy effects are barely real-time in isolation, not to mention any game use, so yeah they look cool but except for the cool factor they're mostly useless
[21:33:26] <noizex> but respect to those who can make all these things with some math tricks
[21:34:22] <Yaniel> too bad basically everyone is just doing distance field marching in their demos nowadays
[21:35:22] <Waynes> hard to make geometry in a fragment shader otherwise
[21:35:56] <[_]b> it doesnt have to have geometry
[21:36:08] <[_]b> to be impressive
[21:36:23] <derhass> Waynes: not that hard after all
[21:36:47] <Waynes> derhass: well, how then?
[21:36:49] <derhass> https://www.shadertoy.com/view/ltlSWf
[21:37:30] <Yaniel> I mean sure, SDFs are cool and have some awesome features
[21:37:37] <Yaniel> but I wouldn't mind some more variety
[21:37:48] <Waynes> derhass: it seems to be tracing a distance field around line 500
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[21:38:09] <[_]b> derhass, thats a long shader so i wont read it all, what does it do then? parametric/analytic equation?
[21:38:24] <Waynes> derhass: 530*
[21:38:42] <Waynes> derhass: nvm, that#s just the sun, I'll read it more closely
[21:38:43] <derhass> well, it does SDFs, it think
[21:39:01] <[_]b> then why show that shader...
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[21:39:59] <Waynes> derhass: ok, raymarching the scene starts at line 468
[21:40:02] <derhass> because I was confused
[21:40:26] <Waynes> funny comments though: "// Step along the ray. Switch x, y, and z because I messed up the orientation."
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[21:40:42] <[_]b> https://www.shadertoy.com/view/ldsXD2 i like a lot of the simple ones too
[21:40:57] <[_]b> doesnt have to be a mega 1000 line shader to be interesting
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[21:41:41] <Waynes> 113 lines for a rotating circle which changes size
[21:41:45] <Nimmy> Yaniel hey ^^
[21:42:31] <[_]b> fancy size change >:d
[21:43:15] <Waynes> one easing function doesn't impress me
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[21:45:19] <Yaniel> hey Nimmy
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[21:46:49] <[_]b> Oh well, I like the things people come up with in shadertoy
[21:46:58] * [_]b browses some more
[21:47:36] <Waynes> my laptop can't handle that website
[21:48:23] <Waynes> glslsandbox works, but the content is mostly offensive ascii text
[21:48:42] <[_]b> I remember back in 2000? or so there was a demoscene project of an fps game that fit into 4kb (?) I wonder if someone will recreate that in shadertoy
[21:48:57] <[_]b> It had procedurally generated everything
[21:49:09] <Waynes> kkrieger was 64k afaik
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[21:49:23] <[_]b> Yes thats the one! kkrieger
[21:49:24] <Waynes> *96k
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[21:50:08] <Waynes> shadertoy is probably not flexible enough for that
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[21:50:38] <[_]b> Not enough buffers?
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[21:52:20] <Waynes> you could make a shader with many "if (fragCoord.xy == ...)", but that'd be a mess
[21:53:14] <[_]b> So far the hardest time I had with shaders is getting them to work properly/fast enough on smartphones
[21:53:28] <[_]b> There should be a shadertoy category for that, super fast/efficient fragment shaders
[21:53:57] <Waynes> but how to make fancy terrain without marching along distance fields
[21:54:17] <[_]b> Also whoever decided to implement such abominably low floating point precision on smartphones should be spanked
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[21:54:42] <Waynes> imagine how slow it would be with "proper" precision
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[21:54:56] <[_]b> :(
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[21:59:15] <[_]b> It also overheats and turns your hands into toast
[21:59:23] <[_]b> Good for those cold winter days that are coming
[21:59:58] <Waynes> I've heard the new samsung phone has a super heating feature
[22:00:13] <[_]b> It must run shadertoy in the kernel
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[22:00:17] <[_]b> That explains so much
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[22:00:40] <[_]b> /bin/init https://www.shadertoy.com/
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[22:24:47] <sadtaco> Do any of you have recommendations on the sort of framework to use to build a game with OpenGL ES3.0?  I want to write once, deploy to many platforms. I want something memory safe, and not to be writing in C++.
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[22:26:48] <Xeek> Unity
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[22:27:02] <Waynes> libgdx
[22:27:08] <Xeek> I really don't know how high level you want :-)
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[22:27:27] <Waynes> me neither
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[22:29:48] <[_]b> isnt unity a C++ library
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[22:29:58] <[_]b> I've never used it but I think I read that
[22:29:59] <Xeek> its not
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[22:30:12] <Xeek> unity3d is very high level, you script in C# for it
[22:30:40] <[_]b> And its cross platform with C#? I guess they have to bundle mono with it, sounds complicated
[22:30:42] <slime> that said, you can do a fair amount of low level rendering stuff if you want
[22:30:46] <slime> it is
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[22:31:04] <Xeek> unity3d is one of the big names
[22:31:18] <Xeek> so they'll want royalties if your game gets big enough if I remember right
[22:31:29] <Waynes> if your game gets that big, you can probably afford it
[22:31:34] <slime> Xeek: nah
[22:31:36] <Xeek> true :-)
[22:31:52] <[_]b> I'd actually like something like libgdx that doesnt use java
[22:31:55] <slime> you just have to pay for a $1500 pro license if you make more than $100,000 in a year with the non-pro version
[22:32:09] <xerpi> anybody using cmake knows any good way to copy the shader folder to the build directory?
[22:32:10] <slime> [_]b: what language?
[22:32:19] <Xeek> slime: I just read they switched to a subscription licensing scheme
[22:32:24] <[_]b> slime, I would prefer C++14 or at least C++11 out of the common languages
[22:32:41] <slime> Xeek: they did recently, but iirc it equates to almost the same thing
[22:32:44] <Xeek> xerpi: cp, copy, xcopy, ...
[22:33:04] <[_]b> slime, But it seems most frameworks that use C or C++ don't work on android because apparently the NDK is a pain to use?
[22:33:12] <xerpi> Xeek, it would be nice to copy them when running make if the version in the source tree is newer
[22:33:20] <Xeek> xerpi: you didn't say anything about make :-)
[22:33:31] <Xeek> xerpi: and I was going to give even more instructions if it were visual studio
[22:33:43] <xerpi> using linux here :/
[22:33:49] <[_]b> xerpi, you can make an empty build target with make to copy anything
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[22:33:55] <Xeek> I don't do hardly any dev on linux
[22:34:13] <xerpi> I use relative paths in my code "shader/basic.vert", so when using a build dir in cmake it can't find them
[22:34:23] <[_]b> are you using make or cmake? thats a big difference
[22:34:31] <xerpi> cmake which generated the Makefile
[22:34:40] <[_]b> I don't know how to do it in cmake, it's a huge mess
[22:34:49] <[_]b> It generates like 5000 sub-makefiles everywhere
[22:35:06] <xerpi> the ideal thing would be to make them always load from the shader directory in the source tree
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[22:35:56] <xerpi> first time using CMake btw, and I already found a blocker xD
[22:36:22] <[_]b> slime, so any alternatives similair to libgdx but not java? It doesn't have to be C++ specifically
[22:36:45] <[_]b> I wrote a complete project with libgdx last year and the java part was just terrible
[22:38:25] <sadtaco> Xeek, Unity is an engine not a framework. And way too abstracted.
[22:39:20] <sadtaco> But I would like something like how you write in C# and it compiles to something native.  But where I can do the other parts by hand.
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[22:39:45] <Xeek> sadtaco: lets be honest, people toss these terms around with differnet meanings everyday
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[22:41:25] <sadtaco> I mean I have no control over the rendering pipeline in Unity. You pick from legacy defered, defered, forward.  I can't change image formats to use say GL_R11F_G11F_B10F for cheap-ish HDR.
[22:41:28] <Waynes> [_]b: what exactly should an alternative to libgdx be? something between sdl2 or sfml and a game engine?
[22:41:40] <slime> sadtaco: huh?
[22:41:56] <slime> you can write your own shaders and create your own render textures and such
[22:41:56] <sadtaco> ?
[22:42:02] <slime> with formats like g11g11b10f if you want
[22:42:08] <slime> r11g11b10f *
[22:42:20] <sadtaco> Wait, you can? Where's that documented? When I looked it up the devs said you can't at the time
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[22:42:35] <slime> shaders and rendertextures have been a part of unity for many many years
[22:42:44] <[_]b> Waynes, I mostly care about it creating the correct opengl-es context cross platform and handle resource loading/saving on all platforms
[22:42:51] <slime> you can even do compute shaders
[22:43:08] <slime> and indirect draw and dispatch calls
[22:43:11] <sadtaco> Yes I saw that much.. though only GL ES 3.1 and higher.
[22:43:19] <[_]b> Waynes, some nice libgdx features that texture/atlases and sprite animation would help but not really neccesary
[22:43:19] <sadtaco> I need to do compute on normal fragment shaders using GL ES 3.0
[22:43:23] <[_]b> s/that/like
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[22:43:50] <slime> https://docs.unity3d.com/ScriptReference/RenderTexture.html
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[22:44:49] <Waynes> [_]b: sorry, don't know any, but someone probably has combined some libraries to do that on github
[22:45:07] <[_]b> I searched but for some reason all of the even tiny frameworks dont work on android, I dont know why
[22:45:12] <[_]b> Even glfw doesnt work on android
[22:45:16] <sadtaco> okay so it's "format" and "RGB111110Float" for that..
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[22:45:41] <sadtaco> Okay maybe I should use Unity then. They don't still lock post-processing behind a "pro" account, do they?
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[22:46:41] <slime> they used to, but not anymore iirc
[22:47:05] <dahlia> I thought the only difference these days is the logo and the dark theme
[22:47:18] <sadtaco> yes that might be, dahlia
[22:47:19] <Waynes> [_]b: I think SDL2 supports android, but I always had more trouble to build anything sdl2 than writing my own abstraction layer
[22:47:40] <[_]b> I'll take a look at sdl, but I've heard mostly bad things about it
[22:47:40] <Waynes> [_]b: also qt, but it's either GPL or $$$
[22:47:47] <Waynes> sdl2, not sdl
[22:47:51] <slime> Waynes: you really have that much trouble building sdl2?
[22:48:23] <slime> [_]b: SDL is great, its main purpose is to provide platform-independent APIs for platform functionality and it's fantastic at that
[22:48:35] <slime> it has an optional simple 2d rendering api as well, which is too basic for most uses
[22:48:44] <[_]b> As long as it can start a context and load files I'm set
[22:48:58] <[_]b> Because even on android you need special apis to load and manage application data
[22:49:08] <[_]b> I don't know why google makes everything so complicated
[22:49:19] <Waynes> have you seen ios
[22:49:22] <[_]b> No
[22:49:33] <Waynes> good, you don't want to
[22:49:37] <dahlia> lol
[22:49:41] <slime> ios is pretty breezy, except for the code signing part
[22:49:59] <slime> (you can use SDL2 on ios as well)
[22:50:06] <[_]b> I use linux as my main operating system for the past 5 years or so and I'm always amazed how difficult trivial things are on android/windows :(
[22:50:39] <sadtaco> libgdx is only OpenGL ES2.0
[22:50:41] <sadtaco> I need to use 3.0
[22:50:42] <[_]b> You're forced to use a very specific set of frameworks/development tools or you're in trouble
[22:51:07] <Waynes> sadtaco: it says 3.0 here (2014), but I haven't tried yet https://github.com/libgdx/libgdx/wiki/Opengl-es-support
[22:51:10] <slime> sadtaco: https://github.com/libgdx/libgdx/wiki/Opengl-es-support
[22:51:26] <sadtaco> Oh? https://libgdx.badlogicgames.com/features.html Here is says 2.0
[22:51:48] <dahlia> windows/mac/linux aren't that bad but I usually have problems with mobile
[22:51:53] <sadtaco> Hm okay.
[22:51:57] <sadtaco> This does look pretty ideal
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[22:52:11] <[_]b> It would be ideal if it wasnt for the java part sadtaco!
[22:52:14] <[_]b> hehe
[22:52:20] <slime> you can use languages other than java
[22:52:25] <slime> the language just has to go through the JVM
[22:52:26] <[_]b> with libfdx?
[22:52:28] <[_]b> libgdx*
[22:52:31] <slime> mhm
[22:52:58] <[_]b> What I liked most about libgdx is they ship a little script that automatically creates project directories for all operating systems and webgl
[22:53:02] <sadtaco> Yeah.. I'd rather use C#, D, or Javascript, but oh well.
[22:53:21] <dahlia> I thought libgdx was java?
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[22:53:27] <[_]b> I thought so too dahlia
[22:54:00] <dahlia> can you use java on ios or webgl?
[22:54:17] <Waynes> it's translated somehow
[22:54:22] <sadtaco> You can use webgl, yes.
[22:54:46] <Waynes> I think it was java to javascript via gwt
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[22:54:48] <[_]b> Yeah libgdx works with webgl
[22:55:14] <dahlia> oh its one of those converter thingies
[22:55:16] <sadtaco> Well it's .java and .jar on the github, so yeah
[22:55:34] <[_]b> It also creates an android studio/gradle project files for you
[22:55:37] <sadtaco> I'm not worried about what something is written in. It should be able to be plenty fast if it's written well regardless of the language.
[22:55:46] <[_]b> Its not about the speed
[22:55:50] <Waynes> sadtaco: no
[22:55:52] <[_]b> It's that java is just terrible to program in
[22:55:56] <sadtaco> ?
[22:56:00] <danhedron> then don't?
[22:56:04] <sadtaco> What, Waynes?
[22:56:07] <Waynes> sadtaco: some languages are just slow, no matter how good your code is
[22:56:34] <[_]b> danhedron, Sacrifices had to be made
[22:56:38] <[_]b> :p
[22:56:46] <dahlia> I think java can be fast if you know what you're doing
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[22:57:02] <dahlia> but I don't ;)
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[22:57:03] <[_]b> It's plenty fast, very memory hungry though
[22:57:14] <dahlia> I can do c# ok
[22:57:24] <[_]b> Although to keep it fast you have to pre-allocate a lot of the memory in java
[22:57:31] <dahlia> not a super expert but ok
[22:57:33] <sadtaco> Well I am trying to make something pretty, but that's shader code running on the GPU and what the client is written in shouldn't matter too much.
[22:57:40] <[_]b> My first attempt I created objects every cycle and it was bad, pre-allocating removed most problems
[22:57:54] <foobaz> java and c# have very similar performance characteristics
[22:57:56] <danhedron> that's not really specific to java?
[22:58:03] <sadtaco> Uh is there an example of something pretty in libgdx? These games are ghetto
[22:58:14] <[_]b> danhedron, It's specific to languages with only dynamic memory and automatic garbage collection
[22:58:18] <dahlia> ya I just exploit the gpu as much as possible to speed up my webgl stuff
[22:58:30] <danhedron> the garbage collection is a concern for performance
[22:58:41] <[_]b> sadtaco, It's as pretty as you make it... you can write any shader you want in libgdx
[22:58:46] <danhedron> but you wouldn't allocate and free memory in C for no reason, why would you do it in Java?
[22:59:00] <sadtaco> That's what I'd figure. But you'd think there'd be some prettier examples
[22:59:03] <dahlia> can you use object pooling?
[22:59:34] <[_]b> sadtaco, My experience with making pretty things on android is that you either need a good artist or your shaders will be too slow/look incorrect on low end hardware
[22:59:49] <[_]b> A good artist can be a substitute for pretty shaders since they can just draw everything
[23:00:12] <sadtaco> Hardware like the Nexus4 is going to be the minimum I'm targetting. Perhaps higher than that.
[23:00:35] <dahlia> maybe the difference between a good artist and a great artist is the great artist steals shaders?
[23:00:44] <[_]b> :o
[23:01:23] <[_]b> Well I guess my big point is the pretty android games I've seen had very simple shaders but high quality art
[23:01:28] <[_]b> So it looks good regardless
[23:01:45] <dahlia> so hard to get a laugh in this channel :/
[23:01:51] <Waynes> danhedron: I don't know which gc java is currently using, but the runtime of some garbage collectors depends on the number of objects that are being referenced, so it could potentially be slower to pool objects than allocating new ones
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[23:02:10] <sadtaco> :p
[23:02:13] <foobaz> dahlia: opengl is serious business
[23:02:25] <dahlia> lol
[23:02:39] <dahlia> oops I mean yes it is
[23:02:46] <dahlia> :)
[23:03:45] <sadtaco> Really the easiest way to make this would be to use three.js, webgl2. But the webviews that currently support webgl2 are heavy/slow and I lose a lot of performance and have large load times due to that.
[23:03:50] <[_]b> It would be great if some non-java developers posted the source of their cross platform android games to see how they do it
[23:04:18] <dahlia> I thought webgl2 was still vaporware
[23:04:31] <[_]b> There's thousands of java open source projects you can look at, not much non-java
[23:04:49] <[_]b> And the few NDK projects I found didnt compile/work at all
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[23:04:58] <sadtaco> Nope. Webgl2 spec was finalized in July
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[23:05:09] <dahlia> building ndk stuff is very painful
[23:05:45] <foobaz> is webgl2 ES3.0 or 3.1?
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[23:05:58] <sadtaco> 3.0 but has compute shaders I think?
[23:06:00] <[_]b> dahlia, exactly, why do they make it so complicated?
[23:06:03] <[_]b> dahlia, its a conspiracy
[23:06:15] <foobaz> time to write my bitcoin mining ad :P
[23:06:44] <slime> no, webgl2 doesn't have compute shaders
[23:06:47] <sadtaco> o
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[23:07:11] <Waynes> [_]b: in the past I wrote some java code to get touch input and passed it to C++ via the java native interface which was very ugly, but the NDK stuff was even more ugly at that point
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[23:07:34] <sadtaco> Meh I'll try doing what I need in Unity and see if it works
[23:07:59] <Waynes> [_]b: I mixed up NDK and native applications, so what I wrote might be confusing
[23:08:33] <[_]b> Waynes, whats the difference between ndk and native applications?
[23:08:38] <[_]b> isnt that the same
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[23:09:12] <[_]b> or is there some non-ndk way to build native applications
[23:09:45] <Waynes> [_]b: you can either write a java application which calls the C libraries you built with NDK or you can write a native application that has no java code at all
[23:10:25] <[_]b> oh
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[23:10:48] <[_]b> Did you upload your code anywhere? Might be good to compare if its easier than using sdl2 with android
[23:11:40] <Waynes> I don't even know if I have the code anymore, but I doubt it'd be easier than using sdl2
[23:11:55] <Waynes> *if you are lucky and can build sdl2 without problems
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[23:13:18] <[_]b> I guess it will automatically call whatever java functions needed to redirect input to the native code
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[23:13:23] <[_]b> SDL2 that is
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[23:15:28] <[_]b> Oh, does SDL somehow work with webgl? I guess thats impossible...
[23:16:28] <Waynes> you can compile C++ with emscripten to javascript
[23:16:51] <Waynes> emscripten supports some frameworks like glut, glfw, sdl and probably sdl2 by now
[23:17:20] <[_]b> How is that possible? Does it convert all the standard library to javascript somehow? Or just convert the asm code to java bytecode
[23:17:29] <[_]b> javascript bytecode
[23:17:30] <[_]b> *
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[23:17:58] <Waynes> the C++ code is compiled to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asm.js
[23:17:59] <Shockk> [_]b: it converts LLVM IR, if I recall correctly
[23:18:15] <Shockk> I might be wrong
[23:18:20] <Shockk> or thinking of something different
[23:18:24] <[_]b> Wow this is cool, I'm going to read more about it
[23:18:28] <Shockk> ah no I'm right
[23:18:48] <[_]b> thanks for the info everyone
[23:18:51] <Shockk> so you compile C++ with some C++ frontend to LLVM, for example, clang++
[23:18:59] <[_]b> yeah I already use clang++
[23:19:08] <Shockk> you only compile as far as the LLVM IR
[23:19:20] <Shockk> then emscripten compiles that IR to JS
[23:19:23] <slime> yes, SDL2 supports webgl via emscripten
[23:19:25] <[_]b> yeah this makes sense
[23:19:33] <[_]b> really cool stuff, I'm going to try it
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[23:20:20] <Waynes> 777 open issues on github
[23:20:27] <Waynes> I should fix some so it's 666
[23:20:38] <[_]b> I'm more scared when theres 5 open issues on github
[23:20:46] <[_]b> It most likely means the developers close issues without fixing anything
[23:21:07] <Shockk> [_]b: or alternatively means the developers are perfect
[23:22:04] *** Karyon <Karyon!~yaaic@unaffiliated/karyon> has joined ##OpenGL
[23:22:57] <[_]b> If theres a 1% chance you make a serious error per day, and you work 365 days, theres a 97.5% chance you will make a serious error
[23:22:59] <[_]b> That really stuck with me when I was at a seminar about software testing
[23:23:27] <sadtaco> And supposedly those things give 70-80% of native performance running in a JS VM.
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[23:23:51] <[_]b> sadtaco, I wonder how it handles file loading and such
[23:24:52] <sadtaco> But using emscripten, aren't you limited to WebGL, thus OpenGLES2.0?
[23:25:02] <Waynes> sadtaco: really depends on the test case, for example, SIMD is probably not available yet
[23:25:28] <sadtaco> SIMD.js is not, nope.
[23:25:33] <sadtaco> It's being adopted though
[23:26:07] <[_]b> In a perfect world browsers would just let you run native code in a sandbox
[23:26:14] <[_]b> And you could port your application everywhere with no effort
[23:26:16] <Waynes> is webgl 2 available anywhere yet? last I checked, default firefox didn't have it
[23:26:53] <dahlia> not that Ive seen and I checked a few weeks ago
[23:27:23] <[_]b> Although I guess in a perfect world there wouldnt be so many operating systems
[23:27:37] <Waynes> it's all the web now
[23:27:48] <dahlia> I think the browsers share a lot of code too
[23:28:07] <[_]b> I think google chrome has over 20 million lines of code now?
[23:28:11] <[_]b> Thats just terrible to think abot
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[23:29:36] <[_]b> I wonder if they sometimes forget some functionality exists in such a large codebase and just re-implement it
[23:29:51] <dahlia> lol
[23:30:25] <[_]b> Can't imagine anyone can keep 20 million lines of code in their head
[23:31:03] <dahlia> I have trouble keeping 20 in mine
[23:31:57] <[_]b> There was that article by a blind programmer who explained how he just keeps all the code in his memory
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[23:32:29] <[_]b> Incomprehensible for me
[23:32:44] <Waynes> opengl programming must be even harder for blind people
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[23:34:19] <Waynes> "Yo, I'm trying to render a triangle, but the screen just stays black. In fact, everything is black, all the time, always."
[23:35:15] <Yaniel> I have a feeling that realtime rendering is a rare hobby among the blind
[23:35:20] * dahlia is legally blind
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[23:35:42] <dahlia> not totally
[23:35:57] <dahlia> and yes it's hard
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[23:36:22] <Yaniel> no doubt it's hard
[23:36:26] <Yaniel> but it's possible still
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[23:36:33] <[_]b> Dont know of any blind opengl programmers but pontriagin was a blind mathematician and did some serious work in geometry/topology
[23:37:42] <[_]b> Can't even wrap my head around such things =\
[23:37:50] <dahlia> the hardest part for me is judging colors. I just ask others if they look ok or what should change.
[23:38:20] <[_]b> dahlia, Do you have to make your irc font very large?
[23:38:41] <dahlia> it's large, black background white text
[23:38:44] <Waynes> [_]b: you have to write in upper case or he can't read
[23:39:06] <[_]b> :)
[23:39:11] <dahlia> I can read :P
[23:39:17] <dahlia> but its hard :/
[23:39:40] <dahlia> the dark theme and zoom features of visual studio are a lifesaver
[23:40:18] <Waynes> h̴̢̩͇̝͓̭͓̩̘̱̦̤͖̱͖͈̆ͩͩ́̌̉̓ͪeͣ̈́́ͭ͗̎̾̓̇́͏̲̭̣͉͚͔̦h̸̯̺͕̯̱͋͋̍ͩ͒̓ͦ̅̓̑ͥͬ͘͜͠,̧̲͕̬̭̫̰̙̮̪̭͈͙͈̱̠̗͙͒͊̈̿̃̇ͤ͊͆͆͂̍̚͟͞ ̉ͨ̒͊͋ͫͬͧͫͨͨ̅͆̍̒̂ͣ҉̳̱͉̹̝̗̥͚̗̻͈̤̼̟́͢͡b̊̍̀ͪ̇ͤ͑̃ͥ̌͒̿̀̉̔̈҉͢͞҉̙͔̥̤̜͎̤̮̗̦̫̩͘ê̢͚̼͉̗̹͙͎̮̩̖̜̯̭̝̳̳͆̚͜ͅͅtͮ̾̌̃͛̽̏҉҉̸̤̲͉̩̮ ̶̧̟͙̟ͯ̔ͣ̿̐ͦͪ̇̓ͩ͆͒̾̐͋͟͞y̆
[23:40:37] <foobaz> i have terrible vision, my code/irc fonts are ~20pt
[23:40:41] <grim002> you're going to give dahlia a heart attack with that font
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[23:40:52] <dahlia> it didnt render
[23:40:59] <dahlia> scrambled mess
[23:40:59] <Waynes> too bad :/
[23:41:06] <Waynes> oh, it worked, then
[23:42:06] <[_]b> lol
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[23:43:14] <Waynes> good night everyone!
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   September 29, 2016  
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