May 13, 2008 
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May 13, 2008 [00:03:15] *** _boto has quit IRC[00:04:39] *** Jorachim has quit IRC[00:07:03] *** chondrite has joined ##OpenGL[00:08:56] <rutski> perhaps I should switch to using raster functions instead of textured polygons[00:09:01] <rutski> is there any good reason not to?[00:11:26] *** fargiolas has quit IRC[00:14:11] <odietsch> well, setup your "2D view" via glOrtho and use the glTranslate, might just be a minor modification to your code and maybe with success[00:14:37] <odietsch> and keep rendering your fonts as textured polygons[00:18:11] *** Li_ has joined ##OpenGL[00:19:02] *** IJs\laptop has quit IRC[00:19:22] *** Li_ has left ##OpenGL[00:19:59] *** gaffa has quit IRC[00:24:59] *** karabash has quit IRC[00:25:28] *** HuntsMan has quit IRC[00:25:49] *** Encryption767 has joined ##OpenGL[00:29:44] *** dvoid_ has quit IRC[00:32:05] <rutski> right[00:32:06] *** TurboAWAY has quit IRC[00:32:19] <rutski> but conceptually I think I like raster functions better[00:32:30] <rutski> these are rasterized fonts I'm dealing with after all[00:32:39] <rutski> feels a bit like a hack to render them as textured polygons[00:36:12] *** prophile has quit IRC[00:40:06] *** Bollinger has quit IRC[00:41:57] *** DobosCake has quit IRC[00:45:06] *** juanmabc has joined ##opengl[00:48:02] *** neoneurone has quit IRC[00:50:50] *** dv____ has joined ##OpenGL[00:51:11] *** dv_ has quit IRC[00:51:20] *** dv____ is now known as dv_[00:51:40] <dv_> rutski?[00:51:44] <dv_> what do you mean with "raster"?[00:51:45] <rutski> yep[00:52:16] <rutski> I mean glrasterpos[00:52:21] <rutski> " The GL maintains a 3D position in window coordinates."[00:52:26] <dv_> so?[00:52:35] <dv_> "I read somewhere that it's common for textured polygons to have petter performance than rasterization functions"[00:52:45] <rutski> yea; but I'm not sure if I believe that anymore[00:52:46] <dv_> what rasterization functions? textured triangles do get rasterized[00:53:07] <rutski> either you really don't know what I'm talking about; or you're just being annoying[00:53:50] <dv_> you are actually talking about glBitmap, glDrawPixels and the like?[00:54:25] <rutski> yep[00:54:39] <dv_> the driver will most likely implement these using triangles[00:55:08] <rutski> that would be fine; because then the responsibility of making things pixel perfect is on the driver; and not me[00:55:09] <dv_> not sure though, I dont know their full specs ... in any case I doubt they are gonna be faster than textured triangles[00:55:28] <rutski> it's not about being faster[00:55:29] <dv_> never had problems with pixel perfect alignment[00:55:32] <dv_> even with AA[00:55:38] <rutski> so long as it's not very much slower then it's about being conceptually easier to deal with[00:55:47] <rutski> dv_: did you see my B example?[00:55:55] <rutski> http://www.rutski89.com:31597/upload/Picture%201.png[00:55:59] <rutski> oh, sorry; wrong linke[00:56:00] <rutski> **link[00:56:04] <rutski> http://www.rutski89.com:31597/upload/Picture%2012.png[00:56:05] <rutski> there[00:56:11] <rutski> notice the bottom part of the 'B'[00:56:38] <dv_> thats a weird one[00:56:58] <rutski> yea :([00:57:03] <dv_> doesnt look like a GL error[00:57:09] <dv_> that is, an error from using GL[00:57:19] <rutski> yea; I'm hoping that's the case[00:57:23] <dv_> try "BBBBBBBBBBB"[00:57:32] <rutski> I'm looking into the actual data now, to see if the pixel data is just like that[00:57:33] <dv_> to see if its B-specific, or location-specific[00:57:35] <rutski> ah, good idea[00:57:41] <rutski> oh, I did move it around[00:57:44] <rutski> and it didn't help[00:58:00] <rutski> I added 0.001 to it's x and y positions every frame[00:58:03] <rutski> a sort of animation[00:58:07] <rutski> and it never changed while it moved[00:59:27] <rutski> also, I just did a bunch of B's like you suggested; no change[01:01:01] <dv_> hmm[01:01:07] *** bbeausej has quit IRC[01:01:12] <dv_> could be a font rasterization error[01:01:20] <dv_> a kerning/hinting issue[01:01:45] <rutski> perhaps hinting; yea[01:01:51] <rutski> I'm trying to figure out how to[01:02:00] <rutski> how to look at the pixel data[01:02:11] <rutski> perhaps it's time to learn to use libpng[01:04:08] *** Gudy_ has joined ##OpenGL[01:04:58] *** Jernej has joined ##OpenGL[01:06:36] *** juanmabc has quit IRC[01:07:50] *** JernejL_ has joined ##OpenGL[01:13:41] *** Gudy_ has quit IRC[01:14:12] *** Suprano has quit IRC[01:18:50] *** Gudy has quit IRC[01:23:23] *** Jernej has quit IRC[01:23:51] *** JernejL has quit IRC[01:32:17] *** replor_ has joined ##OpenGL[01:34:52] *** MatthiasM has quit IRC[01:34:58] *** MatthiasM has joined ##opengl[01:38:45] *** Xmas| has quit IRC[01:40:25] *** Sabman has joined ##openGL[01:49:20] *** replor has quit IRC[01:52:17] *** juanmabc has joined ##opengl[01:53:47] *** juanmabc has quit IRC[01:56:27] *** amz has joined ##opengl[01:56:50] <kiras> rnx: you were totally right, took me a while to get it but it's so much cooler now :)[01:57:47] *** nerdzyboy has quit IRC[01:58:07] *** odietsch has quit IRC[02:00:34] *** juanmabc has joined ##opengl[02:00:35] *** Ragnarok has quit IRC[02:15:35] *** Sabman has quit IRC[02:15:59] *** Jorachim has joined ##openGL[02:17:57] *** Jorachim has quit IRC[02:18:07] *** gus4n0 has joined ##OpenGL[02:18:15] *** gusano has quit IRC[02:19:27] *** gus4n0 is now known as gusano[02:25:02] *** replor_ has quit IRC[02:26:06] *** joakim__ has joined ##OpenGL[02:27:08] *** TheLorax has joined ##opengl[02:34:06] *** phrosty has joined ##opengl[02:41:15] *** LtJax has quit IRC[02:44:54] *** joakim_ has quit IRC[02:46:39] *** Gudy has joined ##OpenGL[02:47:40] *** the_darkside_986 has joined ##opengl[02:47:57] *** PhrostByte has quit IRC[02:50:38] *** HuntsMan has joined ##opengl[03:00:56] *** kiras has quit IRC[03:03:38] *** dv_ has quit IRC[03:07:29] *** mm765^away is now known as mm765[03:20:58] *** Amorphous has quit IRC[03:21:57] *** Amorphous has joined ##opengl[03:27:06] *** NeoThermic has quit IRC[03:27:28] *** xonev has joined ##OpenGL[03:51:06] *** TheLorax has quit IRC[04:02:14] *** blight_ has quit IRC[04:07:31] *** chondrite has quit IRC[04:11:21] *** rutski has quit IRC[04:13:13] *** Lucine2 has quit IRC[04:21:42] *** m4ggus has quit IRC[04:26:12] *** Lucine2 has joined ##OpenGL[04:42:15] *** Nai has quit IRC[04:42:22] *** ddas has joined ##OpenGL[04:44:53] *** jparishy has joined ##OpenGL[04:45:47] <jparishy> Hey, can anyone help me you? I have this function http://rafb.net/p/3QZY3i67.html but it only draws half of the image. http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/5468/picture1fv0.png[04:46:41] *** Encryption767 has quit IRC[04:47:57] <jparishy> Anyone know what I'm doing wrong here?[04:49:08] <hibread> have you got back face culling on and issue the vertex winding the wrong way round?[04:49:19] <hibread> unless you're drawing a quad...[04:49:26] <jparishy> no, it's opengl es[04:49:31] <jparishy> I had to use GL_TRIANGLES[04:49:49] <hibread> try disabling culling first[04:49:59] <hibread> glDisable( GL_CULL_FACE);[04:50:27] <hibread> if that fixed the problem, then its a vertex winding issue[04:50:54] *** joakim_ has joined ##OpenGL[04:51:54] <jparishy> Nope, that's not it[04:53:43] <hibread> hmmm[04:54:59] <hibread> you've looked over your vertex and texture coordinates a few times to make sure everything is as it should? I dont have any time to go over them...[04:55:12] <hibread> hmm shouldn't you be using GL_TRIANGLES?[04:55:16] <hibread> and not triangle strip?[04:56:10] <Satan_Inside> yep[04:56:20] <hibread> looks like you've defined 6 vertices and 6 texture coordinates, but you're using triangle strip... off the top of my head i think that might be the issue[04:56:57] <hibread> for this instance, i'd just think about drawing 2 distint triangles as opposed to a triangle strip. Using the same draw call ofcourse though[04:57:03] <hibread> *distinct[04:58:10] *** Ademan has joined ##OpenGL[04:58:39] *** Rangar has quit IRC[05:03:49] <jparishy> forget it, this is annoying. i'm going to sleep[05:03:55] <jparishy> night, and thanks for the help[05:04:00] *** jparishy has left ##OpenGL[05:08:43] *** joakim__ has quit IRC[05:11:18] *** LiQuiDninja has quit IRC[05:15:18] <hibread> i ment to say *single* draw call up there... oh well[05:21:46] *** peda__ has joined ##OpenGL[05:28:48] *** hibread has quit IRC[05:39:33] *** peda_ has quit IRC[05:39:38] *** Lucine2 has quit IRC[05:43:57] *** freespace has quit IRC[05:44:35] *** rnx has left ##opengl[05:46:57] *** Lucine2 has joined ##OpenGL[05:49:14] *** Lucine2 has quit IRC[05:49:52] *** Lucine2 has joined ##OpenGL[05:59:40] *** PainBank has joined ##OpenGL[06:00:01] *** PainBank has left ##OpenGL[06:13:51] *** BahamutZERO has quit IRC[06:17:58] *** Suprano has joined ##OpenGL[06:33:27] *** Maerz has quit IRC[06:36:06] *** amz has quit IRC[06:39:25] *** nathan_ has joined ##OpenGL[06:40:57] *** Lucine2 has quit IRC[06:41:22] *** Lucine2 has joined ##OpenGL[06:44:10] *** Watermelon2 has joined ##OpenGL[07:00:29] *** mm^away has joined ##opengl[07:02:05] *** freespace has joined ##opengl[07:12:55] *** juanmabc has quit IRC[07:17:40] *** mm765 has quit IRC[07:22:21] *** mm^away is now known as mm765[07:37:06] *** neunon has joined ##opengl[07:59:56] *** huperniketes has quit IRC[08:01:52] *** Watermelon2 has quit IRC[08:12:38] *** nathan_ has quit IRC[08:16:25] *** Ragnarok has joined ##OpenGL[08:16:44] <Ragnarok> whats the difference between ambient and diffuse?[08:16:49] * Ragnarok feels so n00bish[08:18:27] <Jupp3> There are seweral pages that explain all the components[08:18:37] <Jupp3> Basically ambient is always added everywhere[08:18:42] <Jupp3> With or without light[08:19:27] <Jupp3> Basically it's like vertexcolor=ambient+x*diffuse+y*specular[08:19:32] <Jupp3> if that helps[08:19:54] <Jupp3> won't describe what x and y are, but you get the idea :)[08:20:18] <Jupp3> humm[08:20:21] <Ragnarok> yeah i always had this problem couldn't remember the difference[08:20:28] <Ragnarok> so always use ambient with diffuse eh?[08:20:29] <Jupp3> of course there has to be light that emits ambient too[08:20:39] <Jupp3> but angle doesn't change anything for ambient[08:21:01] <Jupp3> always use light components as you think looks the best[08:21:22] <Ragnarok> so anywhere I move a light to perce, it will always reflect in every direction, except spotlight(directional?)?[08:21:45] *** nathan_ has joined ##OpenGL[08:25:57] <Jupp3> no[08:26:03] <Jupp3> there's also directional light source[08:26:14] <Jupp3> but point light source emits light in all directions[08:27:38] <Ragnarok> bvlah i guess everyone gets confused when they first start eh?[08:40:22] <Lacerta> and quite many times after that >:/[08:40:24] <Jupp3> nope, it's only you :)[08:41:50] <Jupp3> Ragnarok: For a general "sun is shining in the distance" situation directional light source is better[08:42:06] <Jupp3> Or don't know about better, but maths are at least supposed to be slightly more lightweight[08:42:20] <Jupp3> But how much does that matter nowadays is another question[08:46:18] *** ahelon has quit IRC[08:47:58] *** Roderic has joined ##OpenGL[08:47:59] *** Roderic is now known as Ingenu[08:48:43] *** groton has joined ##OpenGL[08:51:36] *** prophile has joined ##opengl[08:58:30] *** andikr has joined ##OpenGL[09:05:11] *** Jupp3 has quit IRC[09:07:51] *** Lucine2 has quit IRC[09:10:17] *** HuntsMan has quit IRC[09:10:22] *** Lucine2 has joined ##OpenGL[09:23:31] *** ddas is now known as Nai[09:23:32] *** Bollinger has joined ##opengl[09:25:14] *** neoneye2 has joined ##OpenGL[09:26:01] *** [AD]Turbo has joined ##OpenGL[09:27:26] *** prophile has quit IRC[09:27:54] *** HuntsMan has joined ##opengl[09:28:49] <[AD]Turbo> yo[09:33:56] *** belou has joined ##OpenGL[09:34:20] *** dvoid_ has joined 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has joined ##opengl[14:59:07] *** Jorachim has joined ##OpenGL[15:08:23] *** juanmabc has joined ##opengl[15:14:38] *** t4bz has joined ##OpenGL[15:24:13] *** rnx has joined ##opengl[15:30:11] *** mm765 is now known as mm765^away[15:34:16] *** gotan666 has left ##OpenGL[15:34:21] *** gotan666 has joined ##OpenGL[15:50:04] *** jfl has joined ##OpenGL[15:57:27] *** blight__ has joined ##opengl[16:01:50] *** jfl has quit IRC[16:03:24] *** [AD]Turbo has quit IRC[16:03:25] *** gaffa has joined ##opengl[16:07:43] *** korff has quit IRC[16:09:52] *** charlie5 has quit IRC[16:10:11] *** blight_ has quit IRC[16:11:00] *** charlie5 has joined ##OpenGL[16:14:27] *** juanmabc has quit IRC[16:18:39] *** MarcC has joined ##OpenGL[16:18:50] <MarcC> how do I know if I have an opengl 2.0 video card?[16:19:39] <tmccrary> What OS?[16:19:44] <MarcC> linux[16:20:19] <tmccrary> glxinfo | grep version[16:20:26] <tmccrary> look for "OpenGL version string:"[16:20:41] <MarcC> 2.12, excellent[16:20:43] <MarcC> thank you[16:20:46] <tmccrary> np[16:20:54] *** MarcC has left ##OpenGL[16:21:00] *** ville has quit IRC[16:21:59] *** aalex has joined ##OpenGL[16:23:35] *** grumbel has joined ##OpenGL[16:24:47] *** juanmabc has joined ##opengl[16:26:05] <grumbel> How does OpenGL-ES relate to OpenGL? Is it a complete subset of OpenGL or is there more to it?[16:26:25] *** dv__ has joined ##opengl[16:26:45] *** dv_ has quit IRC[16:26:48] <Ragnarok> OGL-ES is for mobile devices[16:27:22] <tmccrary> its essentially a simplification of opengl[16:27:34] <Ragnarok> i duno[16:29:08] <grumbel> In case it is a subset I assume I can just grab http://www.khronos.org/registry/gles/api/1.1/gl.h and compile my program with that instead of the default OpenGL header to make sure its OpenGL-ES compliant, correct?[16:30:53] *** [AD]Turbo has joined ##OpenGL[16:33:55] *** sohail has joined ##OpenGL[16:37:52] *** Watermelon2 has joined ##OpenGL[16:39:54] *** speedy1 has quit IRC[16:44:21] *** hubbe3 has quit IRC[16:49:54] *** neoneye2 has quit IRC[16:54:33] *** bbeausej has joined ##OpenGL[16:55:03] *** juanmabc has quit IRC[17:04:10] *** TheLorax has joined ##opengl[17:05:06] *** hubbe3 has joined ##OpenGL[17:09:16] *** sanjin has joined ##OpenGL[17:10:26] *** JernejL has joined ##OpenGL[17:10:38] *** bbeausej has quit IRC[17:11:51] *** rutski has joined ##OpenGL[17:13:51] *** juanmabc has joined ##opengl[17:16:26] *** replor has joined ##OpenGL[17:19:33] *** prophile has joined ##opengl[17:19:33] *** prophile has quit IRC[17:19:37] *** bbeausej has joined ##OpenGL[17:20:18] *** karabash has quit IRC[17:24:00] *** ville has joined ##opengl[17:24:56] *** JernejL_ has quit IRC[17:25:31] *** magnet__ has quit IRC[17:27:04] *** aalex has quit IRC[17:28:34] *** magnet has joined ##OpenGL[17:42:40] <rutski> I hear that there are two ways to render text; either use OpenGL's bit blitting functions, or render the rasterized text into a texture and then display it on rectangular polygon[17:42:53] <rutski> I've yet to hear anything beyond ascetic arguments for both methods though[17:42:56] <HuntsMan> yup[17:42:58] <rutski> is there anything more to it?[17:43:06] <HuntsMan> use textures, glBitmap is slow[17:43:09] <tmccrary> "aesthetic"[17:43:31] <tmccrary> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asceticism[17:43:39] <rutski> heh, right; aesthetic, sorry[17:43:58] <rutski> ah, is it really slow?[17:44:16] <rutski> so then when I see things like video players implemented via OpenGL, I can assume that they're very likely not using glBitmap?[17:44:24] <tmccrary> yeah[17:44:26] <HuntsMan> yep, they use texture uploading[17:44:30] <HuntsMan> probably using PBO's[17:45:37] *** TheLorax has quit IRC[17:47:47] *** prophile has joined ##opengl[17:48:36] <quicksilver> rutski: one approach which is popular is make a texture with a 'whole font' on it[17:48:51] <quicksilver> rutski: I.e. abcdef...ABCDE...12345..any other symbols you need.[17:49:01] <quicksilver> rutski: then you can render as you wish just by careful use of texture coords.[17:49:14] <quicksilver> that's nice and simple for fixed-width fonts.[17:49:21] <quicksilver> for variable width it's a bit fiddlier.[17:49:37] *** neoneye has joined ##OpenGL[17:49:38] <quicksilver> and if you want to support nice modern truetype things like proper kerning, you're going to need to render each word so it won't work.[17:49:57] <rutski> it's probably not that much harder for variable width[17:50:04] <tmccrary> it isn't[17:50:14] <rutski> all you'd have to do is save away each glyph, taking it's measurement as well[17:50:14] <tmccrary> you just need to store offsets/baselines/etc[17:50:22] <tmccrary> and keep those in mind when you render[17:50:25] <rutski> and IIIRC freetype has functions for ripping a glyph out of the face's glyph slot[17:50:40] <rutski> ah, this is interesting; check it out[17:50:43] <rutski> 1 sec[17:50:50] <quicksilver> tmccrary: fiddly, not hard :)[17:51:04] <rutski> heh, yea :)[17:51:15] <quicksilver> I render each word separately.[17:51:22] <quicksilver> Then you get kerning and ligatures[17:51:24] <belou> if you are in a linux/gnome environment you can use directly pango[17:51:27] <quicksilver> (like 'ffi')[17:51:29] <rutski> so I did a font rendering test last night: http://www.rutski89.com:31597/upload/Picture%2012.png[17:51:33] <rutski> and the B came out really weird[17:51:44] <rutski> if I change the text size the it fixes it[17:51:53] <quicksilver> looks like an scaling glitch of some kind.[17:52:02] <rutski> but moving it around the screen doesn't change the weirdness[17:52:12] <quicksilver> did you try moving it by half a pixel or less?[17:52:16] <rutski> right, I thought I had an improperly sized polygon or something[17:52:17] <quicksilver> if it's just missing the sample points.[17:52:20] <rutski> quicksilver: yep, I did[17:52:24] <quicksilver> odd, then.[17:52:32] <rutski> but then this morning I took out 2 hours and write a tga dumper[17:52:58] <rutski> and check it out: rutski89.com:31597/upload/foo.tga[17:52:59] <quicksilver> I'm actually using wxWidgets to render my text at the moment (because I have it installed, and its cross-platform)[17:53:04] <tmccrary> http://seventh-sun.com/tmack/fonteditor.png[17:53:12] <quicksilver> and I just intelligently cache if I've already rendered the word before[17:53:17] <quicksilver> so I'm not uploading new texures each frame[17:53:18] <rutski> so it's freetype that's making the rendering mistake[17:53:19] <rutski> by I can't imagine why[17:53:35] <quicksilver> freetype is forbidden from using the font hints, IIRC[17:53:39] <quicksilver> because they're patented.[17:53:48] <rutski> (can you guys view tga by the way, I've noticed that often people's viewers can't load tga)[17:54:03] <quicksilver> you can often get better results by rendering too large and scaling down.[17:54:06] <rutski> yea, but, it's just a few op codes in the hinting VM that apple has patented[17:54:12] <rutski> not all of them by far[17:54:25] <quicksilver> I scale all over the place anyway, so I render at a totally arbitrary '48 point in a 256 pix texture'[17:54:28] <rutski> oh, hmm; really? I thought the whole point was that fonts didn't turn out great when scaled down[17:54:29] <quicksilver> and then scale down[17:54:38] *** Jorachim has quit IRC[17:54:39] <quicksilver> if you start big and scale down it looks OK.[17:54:49] <quicksilver> although if you mess around and scale twice things get fuzzy.[17:54:56] <tmccrary> You can use distange fields to make them work almost like vector fonts[17:55:01] <tmccrary> "distance fields"[17:55:02] <rutski> but can it be said that proper hinting is still better?[17:55:11] <quicksilver> it's not going to look as sharp as MacOs rendered text.[17:55:17] <quicksilver> OSX has a lovely text engine.[17:55:22] <rutski> yea; I know[17:55:22] <rutski> :)[17:55:28] <rutski> I really don't know why people slam it so much[17:55:48] <quicksilver> all kinds of reasons, but generally not for the quality of the subpixel AA :P[17:56:00] <quicksilver> I slam it for not having a decent package management system, for example.[17:56:14] <rutski> I heard that people think that the subpixel AA makes the text look blurrly[17:56:16] <rutski> **burly[17:56:30] <rutski> whereas they claim that non-AA Windows fonts by MS look "crisp"[17:56:42] <tmccrary> http://www.valvesoftware.com/publications/2007/SIGGRAPH2007_AlphaTestedMagnification.pdf[17:57:32] <rutski> wow[17:57:41] <rutski> that's really a scale up for a 64x64 raster image?[17:57:47] <tmccrary> yeah[17:58:19] <rutski> nice; I'm definitely saving that for a later read[17:58:26] *** gotan666 has quit IRC[17:58:27] <rutski> oh, I almost forgot[17:58:33] <rutski> is there a good reason that glBitmap is slow?[17:58:37] <quicksilver> rutski: then they're (a) blind and stupid or (b) viewing the text on the wrong kind of monitor.[17:58:52] <quicksilver> rutski: it's very sensitive to the precise kind of monitor its designed for[17:59:00] <quicksilver> (correct relative positioning of R G B dots)[17:59:01] <rutski> ah, I see[17:59:03] <rutski> you mean an LCD?[17:59:08] <quicksilver> not just any LCD.[17:59:11] *** Watermelon2 has quit IRC[17:59:12] <quicksilver> the *right* LCD.[17:59:15] <rutski> ah, I see[17:59:30] <tmccrary> rutski: Most performance optimization work goes to texures, because that's one of the most highly used parts of the API[17:59:30] <rutski> before I got this iMac I was running a mac mini on a crappy old CRT[17:59:35] <quicksilver> glBitmap is slow because the video drivers haven't bothered to make it fast.[17:59:40] <rutski> and I never noticed blurry fonts[17:59:43] <quicksilver> because it's not seen as a common path.[17:59:56] <rutski> ah, ok; good enough[18:00:12] <quicksilver> rutski: if the mac mini knows it's a CRT (which is does, if you configure it right) then it uses a different AA algorithm[18:00:16] <quicksilver> which looks better on CRTs :)[18:00:20] <rutski> ah[18:00:22] <rutski> interesting[18:00:38] <quicksilver> having said that I've used glBitmap and it's not S...L...O...W[18:00:40] <quicksilver> not by any means[18:00:52] <quicksilver> it's OK for casual use and programs whicha ren't trying to stretch to the limit.[18:00:53] <rutski> oh, heh[18:00:58] <quicksilver> actualyl it might be glDrawPixels I used.[18:01:09] <quicksilver> anyhow, I used some of that old bitmap/pixmap stuff and it does still work.[18:01:13] <rutski> I was thinking about using it instead since it seems more proper for rendering rasterized fonts[18:01:14] <quicksilver> it's not 1 second per call or anything.[18:01:24] <quicksilver> just slower than proper textures which get uploaded to the card[18:01:52] <rutski> oh, shoot; with glBitmap I couldn't upload the data to the card could I?[18:02:25] <hibread> rutski: ill request that you never speak of CRTs like that again MR![18:02:35] <quicksilver> if you use the basic GLUT fonts, for example, I think they're implemented by drawPixels underneath.[18:02:36] <rutski> heh[18:02:41] <quicksilver> and they do still work for simple stuff[18:02:42] <rutski> it was just really really faded[18:02:45] <quicksilver> (I mean the bitmap ones)[18:02:51] *** [AD]Turbo has quit IRC[18:02:53] <hibread> :)[18:02:59] <rutski> by "crappy CRT" I meant "crappy since it's faded", not "crappy since it's a CRT"[18:03:18] <tmccrary> yeah, in that case its "Blurry because its a CRT"[18:03:19] <tmccrary> ;)[18:03:33] <rutski> heh[18:03:59] <hibread> I dread the day when my two 22in Diamond Pro (trinitron) die[18:04:16] <Ingenu> I moved to LCD ASAP and I'm very happy with that[18:04:25] <tmccrary> Do what I did: get a Dell or Apple 30 incher[18:04:28] <Ingenu> was back in 2000 or 2001[18:04:31] <tmccrary> freaking awesome, awesome monitor[18:04:43] <hibread> Ingenu: back in 2000 you were happy with the LCD tech?[18:04:48] <hibread> quality wise?[18:04:49] <tmccrary> The dell is a little cheaper and has more features[18:04:59] <Ingenu> yeah huge improvement over CRT in the headach department[18:05:04] <Ingenu> could use it much longer[18:05:17] <tmccrary> http://www.dell.com/content/topics/topic.aspx/global/products/monitors/topics/en/monitor_3007wfp?c=us&l=en&s=gen[18:05:20] <hibread> The only LCD in the house is the Sony Bravier 40in X-series[18:05:22] <Ingenu> of course they weren't nearly as good as today[18:05:27] <tmccrary> Its worth the money, I'm telling you[18:05:47] <hibread> are the blacks black?[18:05:53] <tmccrary> yes[18:06:03] <rutski> tmccrary: I have a 24" iMac[18:06:06] <rutski> 24" is plenty big enough[18:06:10] <hibread> every LCD i witness the image of, disgust me with grey blacks[18:06:16] <tmccrary> no, its not[18:06:19] <rutski> somehow I get the feeling that if I had a 30" then I couldn't get the mouse to the other side of the screen[18:06:22] <tmccrary> the dual link 2560x1600 is awesome[18:06:46] <tmccrary> believe me, its a totally different experience using a monitor with a res at 2560x1600[18:07:03] <rutski> hibread: it's worth noting that on macs I always have to adjust the color profile to get rid of the grey blacks[18:07:06] <tmccrary> for programming its awesome[18:07:10] <Ingenu> have a 1600*1200 20"[18:07:11] <hibread> tmccrary: ok put it this way. Its night time, i turn all lights off... and i cannot see my monitors at all when they're on showing a black image[18:07:14] <Ingenu> good enough[18:07:26] <rutski> heh[18:07:26] <Ingenu> dual 1600*1200 at work[18:07:31] <Ingenu> more pixels ![18:07:36] <Ingenu> (not)[18:07:39] <hibread> I use 2048x1536 (both monitors)[18:07:54] <tmccrary> I have 3 on my desk at work[18:07:59] <tmccrary> not the 30"[18:08:02] <tmccrary> 21"[18:08:03] <Ingenu> you need dual link dvi for 2560*1600[18:08:07] <tmccrary> yeah[18:08:17] <tmccrary> Although dual link is everywhere nowadays[18:08:27] <tmccrary> when I got the 30", like 1-2 cards had digital dual link support[18:08:40] <tmccrary> now a $100 8 series nvidia card has it[18:09:49] <Ingenu> true[18:09:59] <hibread> rutski: the non-black blacks issue i speak of involves the little liquid crystals (?) not being able to block all light[18:10:00] *** Jupp3 has joined ##OpenGL[18:10:03] <Ingenu> what's the new standard already ?[18:10:13] <Ingenu> display-port isn't it ?[18:10:19] *** Lemml has joined ##OpenGL[18:10:22] <tmccrary> maybe, I'm not sure[18:10:25] <hibread> Ingenu: how annoying do you find non-native resolutions?[18:10:42] <hibread> big-small-big-small pixels.... etc[18:10:43] <Ingenu> I don't run anything at non native resolution[18:10:56] <Ingenu> it's a simple as that ^^[18:11:02] <rutski> hibread: ah, I see[18:11:05] <rutski> I never knew[18:11:24] <Ingenu> yes different screens have different quality[18:11:29] <Ingenu> there's a nice website comparing them[18:11:32] <hibread> yeah i guess that would be fair enough... but for someone who likes runing there games at sub 2560x1600? :)[18:11:38] <Ingenu> but atm I can't remember the english version[18:11:51] <tmccrary> That's why I got an 8800 GTX for it[18:11:58] <tmccrary> and before that a 7590GX2[18:12:10] <Ingenu> then either deal with stretching or just ask teh monitor not to stretch it[18:12:14] <hibread> and that runs recent games at 60fps+ ? :)[18:12:22] <Ingenu> of course it'll not cover the whole area, but you'll keep the quality[18:12:26] <hibread> hehe its ok.. i still can't come to buy an LCD yet[18:12:30] <tmccrary> A lot of them[18:12:31] <rutski> I wonder if it's illegal to turn out the truetype font hinter just to play around with[18:12:36] <tmccrary> Crysis has to run at like 1024x768[18:12:41] <rutski> (in freetype)[18:13:03] <tmccrary> But I really only play games on the linux platform anyway (ETQW, Warcraft 3)[18:13:15] <tmccrary> Valve is supposedly porting the source engine client to Linux[18:13:18] <tmccrary> that should be cool[18:13:31] <tmccrary> its interesting too, since the guys who started valve are microsoft millionaries[18:13:53] <hibread> tmccrary: you mean they owned shares in them?[18:14:02] <Ingenu> www.lesnumeriques.com does good LCD reviews[18:14:06] <rutski> ah, you play ETQW?[18:14:07] <Ingenu> best I've seen[18:14:12] <rutski> I'm not much into video games; but that's one that I do play[18:14:14] <Ingenu> can't remember the english version url though[18:14:18] <rutski> do you play on the ESM servers?[18:14:29] <tmccrary> I'm not sure about that, I just know they made a ton of cash at microsoft and starting their own game dev studio[18:14:42] <tmccrary> Yeah, I play on a few[18:14:55] <tmccrary> your nick seems familiar too :)[18:15:16] <prophile> how long should i wait before taking apart a CRT?[18:15:21] *** Coke has joined ##OpenGL[18:15:29] <tmccrary> I wonder how hard it will be for valve to port the rendering subsystem to opengl[18:15:51] <hibread> prophile: ive heard quite sometime...[18:15:54] <hibread> a day or so?[18:15:56] <Coke> Hi! Any C libraries that can render any common 3d model (like Obj or similar)?[18:15:58] <Ingenu> http://www.digitalversus.com/[18:16:01] <prophile> a day?[18:16:03] <prophile> oh good[18:16:04] <Ingenu> stupid flags[18:16:08] <hibread> the capacitors or something?[18:16:11] <prophile> this has been off for 3 months[18:16:16] <Coke> (something which isn't an entire scenegraph)[18:16:19] <prophile> yeah, capacitors hold charge[18:16:40] <hibread> so you've waited 3 months to rip it apart? :)[18:16:53] <prophile> well, i've had it lying around[18:17:02] <prophile> and it's only today i decided to cannibalize the GPU out of it[18:17:06] <hibread> can you get new "guns" for them?[18:17:11] *** andikr has quit IRC[18:17:16] <prophile> but i don't want to touch HV bits of the CRT[18:17:40] <hibread> i gues they're all inside that big glass thing :p[18:17:55] <hibread> prophile: just wear some gardening gloves[18:18:01] <prophile> yeah, well so's the bit i'm trying to get at[18:18:18] <prophile> thing is i'm poking around with a screwdriver and that can melt and cause spectacular blindness even if it doesn't kill you[18:19:07] *** Yustme has joined ##opengl[18:19:36] <tmccrary> and sunblock[18:19:45] <prophile> ha ha ha.[18:20:53] *** Jorachim has joined ##OpenGL[18:22:22] *** groton has quit IRC[18:22:26] *** juanmabc has quit IRC[18:28:28] <quicksilver> tmccrary: holy shit. That's awesome.[18:28:44] <quicksilver> tmccrary: I just read the alpha-tested paper which I had opened in a background window.[18:29:05] <dv__> hmm[18:29:24] <dv__> anybody knows any good opengl ambient occlusion demos?[18:29:29] <tmccrary> yeah, pretty cool trick[18:32:56] <rutski> would it be legal to turn on freetype's hinting VM despite that it's patented by Apple"[18:32:59] <rutski> **Apple?[18:33:10] <rutski> just to play around with it; not to use it in a product or anything[18:33:47] <quicksilver> that's between you and apple.[18:33:54] <quicksilver> I'm not a lawyer. I don't think they'll sue you.[18:34:04] <rutski> heh, yea; I know[18:34:07] <quicksilver> but it's your call.[18:35:07] <rutski> I'm just curious about patent law in the US in general[18:35:29] <tmccrary> yeah you can do anything you want personally[18:35:39] <rutski> if the patent only bans people from distributing products with said patented feature, or if it goes further to ban people even playing with it[18:35:57] <tmccrary> patents offer commercial protection[18:36:00] <tmccrary> thats it[18:36:00] <rutski> ah[18:36:16] <rutski> well, in that case; I rendered the B with turetype's hinting VM turned on[18:36:18] <rutski> and it's SO much better[18:36:21] <rutski> can I show a screenshot?[18:36:40] <Ingenu> yep[18:36:41] <tmccrary> yeah[18:37:22] <rutski> http://www.rutski89.com:31597/upload/Picture%201.png[18:37:42] <rutski> just guess which is which :)[18:37:59] <tmccrary> the blurry one? ;0[18:38:27] <rutski> heh[18:38:42] <rutski> I wonder what it would cost to license this from apple[18:38:45] *** abionnnn has joined ##OpenGL[18:38:57] <rutski> because I am building a commercial product[18:39:04] <rutski> or perhaps I should just switch to non-AA text?[18:40:28] *** scy has joined ##opengl[18:41:43] <abionnnn> there's always http://www.antigrain.com/[18:43:31] <dv__> rutski, tried rendering that B with no hinting at all?[18:44:29] *** sanjin has left ##OpenGL[18:55:01] *** Lemml has quit IRC[19:01:32] *** uchitoru has quit IRC[19:06:10] *** filmor has joined ##OpenGL[19:15:59] <rutski> dv__: about to now[19:16:14] <rutski> dv__: oh... wait; you mean without hinting but WITH AA?[19:16:20] <dv__> yes[19:16:40] <rutski> hmm, nope; that hadn't even crossed my mind. But now that you mention it I'll give it a go[19:16:59] *** Jorachim has quit IRC[19:20:17] *** scy has left ##opengl[19:20:39] <rutski> dv__: pretty horrid results :([19:20:46] <dv__> hm[19:20:48] <rutski> the B itself doesn't look too bad; but other letters are awful[19:20:53] <dv__> fonts have to be made for this[19:21:00] <dv__> hinting is a huge topic[19:21:19] <rutski> yea :([19:21:35] <rutski> http://rutski89.com:31597/upload/Picture%202.png[19:22:21] <abionnnn> rutski, ew[19:22:27] <rutski> heh; yea[19:22:48] <abionnnn> rutski: though, that font looks useful for those threatening letters created out of newspaper clippings[19:23:03] *** scy has joined ##opengl[19:23:03] <rutski> lol, yea :)[19:23:08] * abionnnn saves a copy for later[19:23:11] <abionnnn> j/k :)[19:23:12] <rutski> it's just courier new by the way[19:24:21] <dv__> rutski, and hinting but no AA?[19:24:41] <rutski> on it[19:25:30] *** Coke has quit IRC[19:27:24] *** ahelon has joined ##opengl[19:34:36] *** oy has quit IRC[19:36:35] *** Xmas| has joined ##OpenGL[19:36:46] *** magnet has quit IRC[19:36:57] *** magnet_ has joined ##OpenGL[19:37:18] *** magnet_ has quit IRC[19:38:46] *** Ingenu has quit IRC[19:40:00] <rutski> hmm, when I tell it to render with FT_LOAD_MONOCHROME it packs 8 pixels into a single byte[19:40:10] <rutski> I'm having trouble unpacking that for use with OpenGL textures[19:41:56] *** magnet_ has joined ##OpenGL[19:43:22] <rutski> this is od[19:43:23] <rutski> **odd[19:43:39] <rutski> I tried passing GL_BITMAP to glTexImage2d, only get an INVALID_ENUM error[19:44:14] <Jupp3> rutski: So basically it has one pixel per bit?[19:44:31] <rutski> right, just on or off; completely monochrome[19:44:44] <Jupp3> For each byte, check the byte againist 8 suitable bitmasks?[19:44:54] <rutski> right[19:45:11] <rutski> but I don't feel like unpacking it that way manually, seeing as how TexImage2d takes a GL_BITMAP option[19:45:44] <Jupp3> You can do a for loop from 0 to 7, which defines how much to rotate 1 to get suitable bitmask for that particular pixel[19:46:01] <Jupp3> And you're sure that it's totally same format?[19:46:24] <rutski> right, I did said for loop[19:46:28] <rutski> but it's broken somewhoere[19:46:33] <Xmas|> GL_INVALID_ENUM is generated if type is GL_BITMAP and format is not GL_COLOR_INDEX.[19:46:43] <rutski> **somewhere, and I don't feel like fixing it if OpenGL can take bitmap data straight up[19:46:47] <rutski> ah[19:47:31] <rutski> all better now[19:47:34] <rutski> however, it's not displaying anything[19:47:57] <Jupp3> So you are asking us for different working solution now?[19:48:23] <rutski> nope; now I'm looking into it myself[19:48:24] <Xmas|> do you know how GL_COLOR_INDEX works?[19:48:31] <rutski> Xmas|: that's what I'm looking into[19:48:49] <Jupp3> Anyway, that won't definitely work on OpenGL ES[19:48:59] <Jupp3> Or many other partial OpenGL implementations[19:49:14] <Jupp3> And wouldn't be surprised if there were bugs related to that elsewhere aswell[19:49:20] <rutski> doesn't bother me; this is just a test[19:50:44] *** abionnnn has quit IRC[19:51:08] <Jupp3> rutski: It would definitely bother me, if I had to use 8bits-per-pixel mode in OpenGL :)[19:51:29] <Jupp3> Anyway, no idea about GL_COLOR_INDEX really, especially with textures[19:51:37] <rutski> yea, me neither[19:51:42] *** DMINATOR has joined ##OpenGL[19:51:44] <rutski> I'm going back to trying to fix the loop[19:51:45] <Jupp3> Or can you use such textures in >8bpp modes[19:52:02] <Jupp3> But I think you can count on that, 8bpp modes are rarely accelerated[19:54:53] *** Jorachim has joined ##OpenGL[20:03:34] *** juanmabc has joined ##opengl[20:05:02] *** KU0N has joined ##OpenGL[20:06:12] <hibread> look what can happen if you just stuff around with shaders :) http://img384.imageshack.us/img384/7046/testaostuffaroundec6.png[20:08:04] <Xmas|> interesting... is this single-pass?[20:08:34] <hibread> im "trying" to impliment SSAO[20:09:00] <hibread> and just started playing about "randomly" with different functions/variables[20:09:39] <hibread> my implimentation is definitely not up to scratch yet... some weird issues. But that image isn't an issue.. just playring around[20:13:50] <rutski> wow, stunning http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Screen_Space_Ambient_Occlusion[20:15:44] <hibread> rutski: yeah pretty nifty concept[20:16:01] <rutski> yea[20:16:10] <rutski> the effect is particularly well illustrated in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Ssaoleadwerks.jpg[20:16:29] <hibread> rutski: yes and no :)[20:16:46] <hibread> there are some artifacts in that image[20:17:17] <rutski> behond just compression artifacts?[20:17:20] <rutski> **beyond[20:17:53] <hibread> which i think are artifacts.. and not just ment to be there. Check out, for instance, the 2nd closest pillar. The one left of the closest[20:18:04] <hibread> looks like there is a shadow behind the pillar[20:18:24] <hibread> shadow onto the floor[20:18:50] <rutski> ah, right[20:18:51] <rutski> very weird[20:18:57] <rutski> also the one that's to the left of that pillar[20:19:10] <rutski> has these weird stripes[20:19:15] <rutski> caused by said shadow[20:20:59] <hibread> that issue should have been solved in that implimentation[20:22:08] <rutski> yea[20:22:10] <rutski> agreed[20:22:22] <hibread> rutski: did ya check out the crysis clip?[20:22:30] <rutski> nope[20:22:35] <rutski> but I played crysis[20:22:45] <hibread> http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2592720445119800709&hl=en[20:22:53] <hibread> shows the SSAO in action[20:24:36] <hibread> that issue is still visible in that clip. But its probably not obvious enough to matter at all. The SSAO effect is definitely worth it regardless[20:24:50] <rutski> ah, nice[20:24:57] <rutski> oh, really?[20:25:00] <rutski> I don't see that in the clip[20:25:11] <rutski> then again I'm playing ETQW at the same time[20:25:58] <hibread> its not really that obvious. Or as bad as that other image[20:26:01] *** juanmabc has quit IRC[20:27:10] *** joakim_ has joined ##OpenGL[20:28:10] *** fargiolas has joined ##OpenGL[20:30:10] *** groton has joined ##OpenGL[20:31:03] *** belou has quit IRC[20:31:59] <rutski> do most high end games like Crysis use GLSL, or NV?[20:33:42] <Xmas|> I guess you meant Cg[20:33:45] <Xmas|> but most games use HLSL[20:34:00] <rutski> oh, right Cg; my bad[20:34:11] <rutski> I haven't gotten into shaders much yet; if you haven't noticed :)[20:34:24] <rutski> My progression in learning OpenGL has been extremely slow[20:34:50] <rutski> or rather; perhaps not[20:35:04] <rutski> perhaps I just think my pace is slow; but it's really not[20:35:08] *** mattn_ has joined ##OpenGL[20:35:18] <rutski> how far were you guys after about 1.5 years of being interested in it?[20:35:25] *** mattn2|home has quit IRC[20:35:50] <rutski> or maybe it's been more like 2.5-3[20:35:57] <rutski> I really can't recall when I first got the redbook[20:42:46] *** joakim__ has quit IRC[20:43:34] <hibread> rutski: you meed to be more than just interested, although being interested is the key in it all. You need to be active in learning nearly on a daily basis. Read as much as you can (books, forums, papers etc) and continually impliment the features... practice makes perfect[20:45:06] <rutski> hibread: you're not running on a mac, are you?[20:45:11] *** aalex has joined ##OpenGL[20:45:24] <hibread> haha. Is it that obvious?[20:45:32] <rutski> oh, nope; it was just a guess[20:45:49] *** Encryption767 has joined ##OpenGL[20:45:50] <rutski> if you're curious; this is my latest project: http://www.rutski89.com:31597/upload/bounce-universal.app.zip[20:45:51] <hibread> nah, im happy with my install of linux[20:45:57] <rutski> it should show just about how far along I am[20:45:58] <rutski> ah[20:46:05] <rutski> so you're not on a mac then?[20:46:23] <hibread> nope[20:46:27] <rutski> ah[20:47:09] <rutski> ah, well; in that case: http://lifethoughtsandsoftware.blogspot.com/2008/04/physics-simulation-first-attempt.html[20:47:21] <rutski> do you have a method by which to play .mov files?[20:47:25] <rutski> I hear they're pretty mac specific[20:48:28] <hibread> yeah pretty sure i can play them[20:48:33] <ville> nothing mac specific about it[20:48:47] *** filmor has quit IRC[20:48:52] <rutski> no, I mean; they encoding originated on OSX; no?[20:48:57] <rutski> **the enc[20:49:17] <ville> Yes apple is behind the Quicktime format[20:49:43] <hibread> rutski: we'll have to talk about this another day[20:49:52] <hibread> its 4:20am here... and i really should get some sleep[20:49:55] <rutski> ah, ouch[20:49:58] <rutski> sleep tight[20:50:09] <hibread> haha, yep. That is what i'll do[20:50:14] <hibread> later![20:51:27] *** hibread has quit IRC[20:51:28] *** m4ggus has joined ##opengl[20:51:45] *** karabash has joined ##OpenGL[20:59:14] *** aalex has quit IRC[20:59:58] *** blbmp has joined ##OpenGL[21:11:13] *** juanmabc has joined ##opengl[21:11:41] *** neoneurone has joined ##OpenGL[21:13:28] *** mattn__ has joined ##OpenGL[21:23:03] *** dv__ has quit IRC[21:24:24] *** Xmas| has quit IRC[21:29:26] *** reviver has joined ##OpenGL[21:30:25] *** hubbe3 has quit IRC[21:30:28] *** mattn_ has quit IRC[21:30:47] *** hubbe3 has joined ##OpenGL[21:39:09] *** speedy1 has joined ##OpenGL[21:43:34] *** scy has left ##opengl[21:43:53] *** scy has joined ##opengl[21:44:30] *** xonev has quit IRC[21:51:56] *** LtJax has joined ##opengl[21:54:43] *** darka has joined ##opengl[22:06:42] *** dvoid_ has quit IRC[22:07:01] *** joakim__ has joined ##OpenGL[22:12:59] *** fargiolas has quit IRC[22:14:14] *** _boto has joined ##opengl[22:14:46] *** Maerz has quit IRC[22:16:03] *** neoneye has quit IRC[22:19:31] *** m4ggus_ has joined ##opengl[22:21:06] *** joakim_ has quit IRC[22:24:55] *** m4ggus_ has quit IRC[22:25:15] *** m4ggus_ has joined ##opengl[22:26:24] *** m4ggus has quit IRC[22:26:28] *** m4ggus_ is now known as m4ggus[22:30:48] *** Suprano has joined ##OpenGL[22:40:02] *** huperniketes1 has joined ##OpenGL[22:40:11] *** huperniketes has quit IRC[22:42:13] *** Yustme has quit IRC[22:50:06] *** bbeausej is now known as dmo[22:50:28] *** dvoid__ has joined ##OpenGL[22:53:24] *** dmo is now known as bbeausej[22:53:42] *** lolage0 has quit IRC[22:57:14] *** tmccrary has quit IRC[22:59:03] *** m4ggus has quit IRC[22:59:29] *** m4ggus has joined ##opengl[23:01:42] *** karabash has quit IRC[23:05:32] *** eu-prleu-peupe1 has joined ##OpenGL[23:05:39] *** replor has quit IRC[23:05:43] <eu-prleu-peupe1> hello[23:05:57] <eu-prleu-peupe1> is open scene graph used on the industry ?[23:06:47] *** kaotrix has joined ##OpenGL[23:13:02] *** reviver has quit IRC[23:16:18] *** groton has quit IRC[23:16:29] *** groton has joined ##OpenGL[23:21:32] *** LordMetroid has joined ##OpenGL[23:21:51] *** scy has left ##opengl[23:24:48] *** dvoid__ has quit IRC[23:24:51] *** juanmabc has quit IRC[23:25:17] *** dvoid_ has joined ##OpenGL[23:27:12] *** dvoid_ has quit IRC[23:27:30] *** dvoid_ has joined ##OpenGL[23:32:06] *** juanmabc has joined ##opengl[23:41:22] *** dvoid_ has quit IRC[23:44:02] *** karabash has joined ##OpenGL[23:44:13] *** neunon has quit IRC[23:57:16] *** Jorachim has quit IRC