May 11, 2008 
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May 11, 2008 [00:03:29] *** inoxor has joined ##OpenGL[00:05:35] *** neoneye has quit IRC[00:08:55] *** amz has quit IRC[00:18:19] *** Lemml has quit IRC[00:24:25] *** groton has quit IRC[00:33:46] *** Yustme has quit IRC[00:43:01] *** braden has quit IRC[00:43:24] *** ced117 has quit IRC[00:44:47] *** karabash has quit IRC[00:53:45] *** speedy1 has quit IRC[00:54:02] *** rutski has quit IRC[00:55:27] *** dv_ has quit IRC[00:56:19] *** dv_ has joined ##OpenGL[00:56:26] *** Burga has joined ##OpenGL[01:02:47] *** braden has joined ##OpenGL[01:03:56] *** Jernej has joined ##OpenGL[01:05:02] *** darka has quit IRC[01:13:58] *** LordMetroid has quit IRC[01:15:20] *** braden has quit IRC[01:16:49] *** inoxor has quit IRC[01:18:51] *** DMINATOR has quit IRC[01:21:51] *** JernejL has quit IRC[01:34:48] *** MatthiasM has quit IRC[01:34:53] *** MatthiasM has joined ##opengl[01:37:55] *** boghog has quit IRC[01:39:09] *** Jup4 has joined ##OpenGL[01:39:10] *** Jupp3 has quit IRC[01:39:22] *** Jup4 is now known as Jupp3[01:46:01] *** prophile has quit IRC[01:46:05] *** kiras has quit IRC[01:46:32] *** kiras has joined ##OpenGL[01:57:32] *** TheLorax has joined ##opengl[02:16:03] *** freespace has quit IRC[02:22:09] *** jh559 has quit IRC[02:24:10] *** Lacerta-2 has quit IRC[02:28:22] *** DobosCake has quit IRC[02:40:25] *** KU0N has quit IRC[02:45:30] *** juanmabc has quit IRC[02:56:05] *** kaotrix has quit IRC[02:56:48] *** speedy1 has joined ##OpenGL[03:01:51] *** IJs\laptop has quit IRC[03:15:46] *** TheLorax has quit IRC[03:18:08] *** User01_ has joined ##OpenGL[03:18:14] <User01_> hi[03:24:26] *** Amorphous has quit IRC[03:25:10] *** Amorphous has joined ##opengl[03:25:21] <User01_> i started to try to do some fbo but it send an error GL_FRAMEBUFFER_UNSUPPORTED_EXT[03:25:43] <User01_> glew show me that it s supported[03:25:48] <User01_> :([03:26:00] <User01_> i have a 68000GT[03:26:09] <User01_> 6800GT ;)[03:27:13] <User01_> the demo of nvidia with fbo work :P[03:27:16] *** adamp is now known as adampetrone[03:27:25] <User01_> in the sdk 9.5[03:32:26] *** blight_ has quit IRC[03:34:17] *** User01_ has quit IRC[03:35:58] *** nerdzyboy has joined ##OpenGL[03:36:01] <nerdzyboy> Hi[03:38:28] <nerdzyboy> I'm using glutKeyboardFunc and glutSpecialFunc to get input from the keyboard in one of my applications and it works fine. But is there a way to get 2 simultaneous keystrokes? ie in a game you hold the up arrow to move forward and press space to do an action.[03:39:17] <nerdzyboy> Would I need a more complex library like sdl to get better input support?[03:40:42] <rnx> just keep track of state[03:41:06] *** speedy1 has quit IRC[03:43:29] <nerdzyboy> ?[03:54:20] <garou> I always forget this one: OpenGL is righthanded, z points out of monitor?[03:55:18] <garou> nerdzyboy: Create a list of keys currently pressed. Let keyboardFunc update that list and your specialFunc interprete it.[03:55:41] <garou> That list is the current state of the keyboard.[03:56:42] *** Ragnarok has joined ##OpenGL[03:56:55] <Ragnarok> whats a good C++ physics library?[03:57:06] <nerdzyboy> cool thanks garou[03:57:32] <garou> Ragnarok: Bullet? Though AFAIK it only does rigid body dynamics.[03:57:46] <garou> Meqon if you've got too much money.[03:58:00] <Ragnarok> naw i only use OSS[03:58:00] <garou> Havok if you have connections "on the inside".[03:58:42] <garou> IIRC both OGRE and Crystal Space use Bullet, so there's probably some reason to use it.[04:01:37] <Ragnarok> i don't use engines :P[04:01:42] <Ragnarok> and im on linux btw[04:02:25] <garou> Well, these engines use that physics library, that's how I learned about it. I assume that there were good reasons that Bullet was chosen. That's what I wanted to express.[04:03:05] *** rutski has joined ##OpenGL[04:04:07] <Ragnarok> yeah im compile it right now =)[04:04:19] <Ragnarok> twow it failed[04:04:24] <Ragnarok> wow*[04:04:56] <Ragnarok> w00t its in portage[04:05:50] <garou> Well, then there's only one choice left. Break out a high school book about Newtonian physics, add an article about numeric integration, write down the mathematical formulas using Chicken, compile it and have a physics library. ^^[04:06:11] <Ragnarok> hehe[04:06:42] <Ragnarok> add an article?[04:07:42] <garou> ...about numeric integration. To solve the equations.[04:08:07] <Ragnarok> and bullet in C++ :)[04:22:37] <garou> Urgs... The crux with top-down programming is that you end up with lots of code before you can really test. :([04:26:41] <Ragnarok> ?[04:29:09] *** rutski has quit IRC[04:32:11] *** marenz_ has quit IRC[04:32:35] *** marenz_ has joined ##OpenGL[04:35:33] <Ragnarok> i got a question. with glPushMatrix/Pop, say I call translate on MODEL_VIEW, I call translate, then translate aain then call Push, the second translate only effects the objects between that and the objects outside of that don't touch the second translate only the first correct?[04:37:24] <pekuja> hmm, no I don't think that's how it works[04:37:35] <pekuja> you need to push before the second translation, and then pop after you're done with it[04:38:05] <pekuja> (if anyone can confirm, please do, I'm really not an expert)[04:38:29] <Ragnarok> me either =X[04:38:47] <garou> Does push copy the uppermost matrix?[04:38:56] <pekuja> uppermost?[04:39:28] <garou> ...on the matrix stack.[04:39:48] <pekuja> push pushes your current matrix on the matrix stack, no?[04:40:12] <pekuja> pop pops the topmost matrix back to your current matrix[04:40:19] <Ragnarok> now u guys are confusing me[04:40:26] <garou> Hm... I'll tackle that when I'm done with my current code. ^^[04:41:14] <pekuja> garou, hmm, actually yeah I think you're right[04:41:56] <Ragnarok> ^________^[04:43:05] <pekuja> Ragnarok, your current modelview matrix sits on top of a matrix stack. when you Push it, a copy gets made, so that there is an identical matrix just beneath your current modelview matrix. when you Pop, the topmost matrix gets thrown out and the one below it is taken into use[04:44:35] <Ragnarok> so lemme see, i call translate that affects every object, call pushmatrix, call another translate it only affects objects up to pop, then the top matrix is restored back to normal?[04:44:38] <pekuja> so calling Push before your translation allows you to later Pop it to reverse the translation[04:44:54] <pekuja> hmm, yes[04:45:09] <Ragnarok> ^_________^[04:45:27] <Ragnarok> thats awesome, too bad DX never had that it would have been alot easier on things[04:46:05] * Ragnarok loves GL just pissed no real C++ wrapper[04:46:41] <garou> Well, it *is* not really object oriented.[04:47:07] <garou> Any real C++ wrapper is a 3D engine.[04:47:46] <Ragnarok> blah[04:47:46] <garou> Actually, that's about what I'm doing right now, defining multi-vertex objects. But in Scheme, not C++.[04:47:58] <Ragnarok> yeah I need to learn about VBO next[04:48:16] <garou> Then you're way ahead of me. ^^[04:48:47] <Ragnarok> the problem with me i skip around[04:49:54] <garou> Did you try to read the Redbook?[04:50:01] <Ragnarok> what will kill me in GL is the shading language[04:50:17] <garou> Why's that?[04:50:22] <Ragnarok> its complicated[04:50:26] <garou> And which one? GLSL or Cg?[04:50:32] <Ragnarok> GLSL[04:50:43] <Ragnarok> i thought ill use Cg[04:50:46] <Ragnarok> doubt*[04:51:51] <garou> Hm. I've taken one little look at it so far, but it didn't really look so difficult. You've got a buch of variables representing the state of the pipeline, you do stuff by rewriting that state, the rest is C-style calculation?[04:52:01] <garou> Isn't that it?[04:53:04] <Ragnarok> its the math that confuses me a little on it ;)[04:53:42] <garou> That's not the languages fault. :p[04:54:01] <garou> If you want to write shaders, well. What did you imagine it'd be but math and physics?[04:54:36] <Ragnarok> i know[04:54:53] <Ragnarok> ill get more in depth with the math more when i need it more indepth[04:55:08] <Ragnarok> i didn't take college ;)[04:55:17] <Ragnarok> and dropped out in 9th grade =X[04:55:34] <garou> Aaah. Okay, in that case, you probably have to catch up a little.[04:55:54] <Ragnarok> mhmm[04:56:24] <garou> I assume, you have a basic understanding of linear algebra and maybe a bit of calculus?[04:56:46] <Ragnarok> never done calc[04:56:55] <Ragnarok> but have basic understand of LA[04:57:48] <garou> Well, that's a starting point. :)[04:58:00] <Ragnarok> :D[05:01:37] *** marenz_ has quit IRC[05:02:15] *** slide has joined ##OpenGL[05:02:53] *** XzN`L3g3ndZ has quit IRC[05:04:41] <slide> I'm writing a Schematic CAD program and I want to be able to model circuit boards and such in 3D. For that I am going to use OpenGL but I was wondering if it would be wise to use something else for the 2D drawing, is OpenGL sufficiently advanced for 2d drawings?[05:04:46] *** joakim__ has joined ##OpenGL[05:06:00] <garou> You can everything that you can do in 3D in OpenGL in 2D too.[05:06:07] <garou> 2D is just a special case of 3D.[05:07:54] <slide> true.. hrm[05:09:05] *** kiras has quit IRC[05:10:39] <Ragnarok> iirc opengl was design with CAD in mind[05:11:01] <Ragnarok> atleast thats what OGL SuperBible said[05:11:41] <garou> Actually, do you want the 2D diagrams to be logical schematics or board circuitry for lithography?[05:12:05] <garou> Ragnarok: SuperBible? The Redbook?[05:12:14] <Ragnarok> no the blue book[05:12:34] <garou> Thaaat was... OpenGL on X graphics system?[05:12:37] <Ragnarok> http://www.starstonesoftware.com/OpenGL/[05:12:57] <garou> Oh.[05:12:58] <Ragnarok> i own the 2004 edition[05:13:10] <slide> garou, both[05:13:15] <Ragnarok> too bad most books base it on glut =X[05:14:05] <garou> Then I assume that for the lithography and the 3D image, you'll probably just use different subroutines for the parts while keeping the program flow the same.[05:14:31] <garou> Ragnarok: Why? Glut is both very useful and widely ported.[05:14:57] <Ragnarok> meh Glut was designed for demos in mind not full weapons[05:15:13] <garou> o.O[05:15:32] <Ragnarok> i use Qt4 for OpenGL[05:15:33] <garou> Okay, maybe you know more than me, but Glut seems pretty universal to me.[05:15:45] <slide> My main problem right now is setting up the component library, for instance, can I pass a OGL Context around and have each each component (a class) render onto it?[05:15:49] <garou> Ah, you're missing a widget system?[05:15:50] <Ragnarok> Qt4 is cross-platform[05:16:11] <Ragnarok> missing?[05:16:11] <garou> So's Glut.[05:16:30] <Ragnarok> Glut doens't have an image load iirc[05:16:31] <Ragnarok> ;)[05:16:38] <Ragnarok> loader*[05:16:56] <garou> I wouldn't swear on it, but I very much doubt that.[05:16:56] <Ragnarok> and file loaders, etc[05:17:16] <Ragnarok> but w/e floats ur boat :)[05:17:35] <garou> slide: Passing the context around? IIUC that'd be the window ID.[05:17:48] <Ragnarok> this is a good site for ogl tutotrials but uses win32 =X[05:17:49] <Ragnarok> http://www.ultimategameprogramming.com/[05:20:59] *** jh559 has joined ##opengl[05:21:37] *** joakim_ has quit IRC[05:21:56] <garou> Hm... I assume VBOs and display lists are two very different things=[05:21:59] <garou> s/=/?/[05:22:48] *** Rangar has quit IRC[05:23:13] <HuntsMan> correct[05:24:36] <Ragnarok> aren't lists just a bunch of arrays?[05:24:48] <Ragnarok> and eleminates alot of typing?[05:24:55] <Ragnarok> blah i hate spelling xD[05:28:50] <garou> Display lists are chunks of primitive commands, that stuff that you find between glBegin() and glEnd(). Usally, those are then cached on the GFX hardware for really fast access.[05:31:33] <garou> Woohoo, my debugging progress has reached the actual function in which GL-calls are made...[05:31:47] *** LiQuiDninja has quit IRC[05:31:59] <slide> How can I create a hollow square, ie just the border?[05:32:35] <Ragnarok> does gluLookAt replace gluPerspective?[05:34:18] <slide> The only way I can think of is to draw 1 and then another on it a little bit smaller, but what about objects behind it?[05:35:18] <garou> You'd actually probably 8 triangles to draw a real frame, but I'm looking for the actual functions right now.[05:35:42] <rnx> try glpolygonmode or gl_lines[05:35:51] <garou> But I bet there's an easy call like glutWireQuad(), after all, there is a glutWireCube().[05:36:18] <slide> not using glut[05:38:29] *** hypernewbie has joined ##OpenGL[05:40:07] <garou> Yes, GL_LINES is what you probably should use.[05:40:24] <garou> .oO( What the heck was I thinking? )[05:41:04] <slide> hehe[05:41:31] <slide> can I open 1 gl_lines and then 4 vertex's?[05:41:38] <slide> (or would it be 5?)[05:42:14] <garou> 5, I'd think.[05:43:41] <rnx> you can use line_loop[05:46:03] <slide> sweet there we go, thanks :)[05:46:42] <slide> How can I always have my drawing be centered in the window?[05:48:25] <garou> Keeping track of its expanses and updating the viewport when neccessary.[05:54:09] *** thesquib has quit IRC[05:55:21] *** thesquib has joined ##OpenGL[06:13:40] <Ragnarok> wow picking is easy in gl[06:17:28] <Ragnarok> wow i might use Cg over GLSL, since it seems you gotta do too much to load it o_O[06:19:35] <hypernewbie> Rangarok: or use glee[06:20:19] <hypernewbie> Ragnarok but yeah, GLSL is quite badly supported in anything under ogl 2[06:20:32] <Ragnarok> so use Cg?[06:20:42] <hypernewbie> i havent used cg so i wouldnt know[06:20:48] <hypernewbie> im a glsl person...for now[06:21:06] <Ragnarok> lol[06:21:10] <Ragnarok> what bout glew?[06:21:31] <hypernewbie> my friend idnt like so i listened[06:22:11] <Ragnarok> http://www.glee.com/[06:22:13] <Ragnarok> o_O[06:23:15] <hypernewbie> O.o[06:23:39] <hypernewbie> http://elf-stone.com/glee.php[06:23:55] <hypernewbie> its best if u compile to a dynamic link library[06:24:06] <hypernewbie> unless if you want 15 minute compile times[06:24:58] <Ragnarok> its not in portage[06:25:05] <hypernewbie> hmm?[06:25:10] <Ragnarok> im on linux[06:25:20] <hypernewbie> its crossplatform is nt it[06:25:25] <hypernewbie> ...isnt it??[06:25:31] <Ragnarok> isn't what[06:25:36] <Ragnarok> glee?[06:25:38] <Ragnarok> yeah[06:25:39] <hypernewbie> Compatibility[06:25:40] <hypernewbie> GLee is compatible with Windows, Linux, OS-X and FreeBSD platforms. It is also likely to be compatible with other unix-like systems which use X windows.[06:25:54] <Ragnarok> but its not in portage (Gentoo's package manager)[06:26:04] <Ragnarok> but glew is :D[06:26:10] <hypernewbie> use glew then :P[06:26:17] <hypernewbie> i have nothing against glew, my friend has[06:26:58] <Ragnarok> hehe[06:27:17] <Ragnarok> that was the only thing that drove me nuts about opengl was extensions[06:28:23] *** TheLorax has joined ##opengl[06:31:09] <hypernewbie> yeah[06:31:27] <hypernewbie> ironic that the only thing that drives me nuts about directx is nothing BUT extensions[06:31:35] <hypernewbie> no more stock pipeline shaders[06:31:40] <hypernewbie> write ur own![06:33:34] <Ragnarok> hahah[06:33:46] <Ragnarok> thats fucking incredible[06:33:48] <Ragnarok> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/ec/Glasses_800_edit.png/800px-Glasses_800_edit.png[06:34:23] <hypernewbie> yeah, raytracing[06:34:36] <hypernewbie> envmap + raytrace spammage[06:34:56] <Ragnarok> i didn't know ray tracing was that o_O[06:35:05] <Ragnarok> i bet that stuff is slow for gaming[06:35:06] <hypernewbie> you trace a light ray[06:35:10] <hypernewbie> erm[06:35:23] <hypernewbie> that takes like what, 6 hours for 1 frame on a 10 pc rander farm?[06:35:29] <hypernewbie> render*[06:36:03] <Ragnarok> wow[06:36:10] <hypernewbie> so unless you want 0.0027777777777 fps....[06:36:47] *** Maerz has quit IRC[06:36:56] <Ragnarok> heheh[06:36:57] <hypernewbie> you can do basic refraction and reflection by spamming depth buffer stincel buffer somehow and env map[06:37:08] <hypernewbie> i have no idea :X[06:37:08] *** Suprano has joined ##OpenGL[06:37:27] * Ragnarok hugs hypernewbie[06:38:12] <hypernewbie> :D[06:39:46] *** rnx has left ##opengl[06:40:53] <Ragnarok> the only thing really useful of glut is they have functions to create spheres, cubes, teapots etc[06:41:47] <hypernewbie> did i just hear useful and glut in the same sentence? *gets baseball bat*[06:42:27] <garou> Ummm... I like having its mainloop? ^^[06:43:02] <Ragnarok> hypernewbie, o[06:43:06] <Ragnarok> o_O*[06:43:40] <hypernewbie> garou: http://glfw.sourceforge.net/[06:43:42] <garou> Right now it's driving me crazy, though. It should automagically include gl.h, glu.h and glx.h, but when compiling I get : undefined reference to `gluLookat'[06:43:43] <Ragnarok> *coughs* garou http://pastie.caboo.se/195043[06:44:23] <hypernewbie> garou: glut = fail[06:44:38] <Ragnarok> thats awesome[06:44:40] <Ragnarok> http://glfw.sourceforge.net/screenshots/particles.jpg[06:45:44] <garou> hypernewbie: Do you have some academic reason for that, or do you just prefer glfw?[06:45:56] <hypernewbie> garou: i have experience reason for that[06:46:06] <garou> Ragnarok: I wish the screenshots had links to the source. ^^[06:46:17] <garou> hypernewbie: May I share?[06:46:18] <hypernewbie> garou: try to makea game that shoots a bullet when the user presses CTRL key in glut[06:47:12] <hypernewbie> garou: try to make a program where you wanna capture CTRL, and CTRL+E separately[06:48:39] <Ragnarok> oh and like having case 27: ;)[06:48:55] <hypernewbie> thats fine[06:49:05] <hypernewbie> it screw over as soon as u want case KEY_CTRL:[06:49:08] <hypernewbie> or KEY[06:49:11] <hypernewbie> KEY_SHIFT:[06:49:29] <garou> Okay, neither would be trivial, so I assume glfw has premade facilities for that?[06:49:34] <hypernewbie> m hmm[06:49:41] <hypernewbie> it does your time handling as well[06:49:42] <Ragnarok> *coughs* hypernewbie http://pastie.caboo.se/195043[06:49:45] <Ragnarok> :D[06:50:05] <hypernewbie> yeah[06:50:08] <hypernewbie> try handling CTRL[06:50:14] <Ragnarok> Qt4 w/ OpenGL ftw[06:50:23] <hypernewbie> is that crossplat?[06:50:51] <Ragnarok> yes[06:50:56] <hypernewbie> k[06:51:02] <hypernewbie> whatever floats ur boat i guess[06:51:03] *** the_darkside_986 has joined ##OpenGL[06:51:09] <Ragnarok> case Qt::Key_Control:[06:51:51] <garou> Hmm, I don't even need to change much yet to change over...[06:52:56] <hypernewbie> i guess you can use gt to fill in the missing bits glut fails on[06:53:17] <hypernewbie> e.g. timer[06:53:32] <hypernewbie> (why use 1 library when you can use 2?)[06:53:55] <Ragnarok> QTimer* m_glTimer :D[06:54:04] <hypernewbie> yeah[06:54:20] *** sohail has quit IRC[06:54:20] <Ragnarok> you don't need glut with Qt[06:54:47] <Ragnarok> you can use wxWidgets with OpenGL and alsa GTKmm[06:56:26] <garou> There are no .debs for glfw?[06:56:33] <hypernewbie> nope[06:56:48] <hypernewbie> im not a .deb person when it comes to libraries[06:56:57] <hypernewbie> because im trying to go cross platform[06:57:04] <hypernewbie> trying to find .debs for windows....isnt cool[06:57:07] *** BahamutZERO has quit IRC[06:57:37] <garou> ... Huh? That doesn't really make sense...[06:58:02] <hypernewbie> hmm?[06:58:24] <hypernewbie> i dont like debs when it comes to installing libraries on the compiler[06:58:27] <garou> Except if there's another definition for .debs. I meant the Debian/Ubuntu packets.[06:58:30] <hypernewbie> yeah[06:58:40] <hypernewbie> i just personally dont like debs[06:58:51] <hypernewbie> when it comes to installing libraries[06:59:03] <hypernewbie> because you cant install debs on Windows XP[06:59:06] <garou> But... Why?[06:59:13] <garou> But... but...[06:59:17] <hypernewbie> :P[06:59:24] <hypernewbie> personal opinio, move on igmore me[06:59:30] <hypernewbie> ifnore*[06:59:31] <garou> Then why do you make Windows packages? You can't install them on another OS.[06:59:32] <hypernewbie> ignore*[07:00:10] <hypernewbie> you get the .a, shove it into ur /libs, and you link it with ur project, and ding it compiles under windows!!![07:01:56] <Ragnarok> garou, ewwww u use debian[07:01:57] <Ragnarok> ewwww[07:02:11] <garou> Ubuntu actually.[07:02:47] <garou> ATI-drivers and glx became too much of a hassle back when I still had an ATI card.[07:02:47] <Ragnarok> ewwwwwww[07:02:56] <garou> Whattheheck?[07:02:57] <Ragnarok> use Gentoo[07:02:58] <Ragnarok> :D[07:03:26] <garou> Tried it, spend too much time compiling for not enough result.[07:04:00] <Ragnarok> how u like slow ubuntu, and too long for updates of new applicates etc[07:04:25] <garou> I'd use it for high-performance servers where I really want to tweak every compiler flag, but for usual circumstances I really don't need that extra bit of performance.[07:04:46] <Ragnarok> sure u do :D[07:04:52] <garou> What the heck? I really have nothing what I'd be waiting for ATM.[07:04:55] <hypernewbie> ubuntu is cool. Especially when other OSes dont support ur card and run in 320x200 256 color[07:05:01] *** TheLorax has quit IRC[07:05:08] <Ragnarok> hypernewbie, thats suse[07:05:17] <hypernewbie> Ragnarok: :D[07:05:18] <Ragnarok> i had no problems on gentoo[07:05:43] <Ragnarok> the only thing im having trouble with is no one helping me on my compiz0fusion problem[07:05:49] <Ragnarok> but ill figure it out later[07:05:54] <hypernewbie> ..[07:06:12] <hypernewbie> you talk about like, compiling your own kernel and like, getting every single bit of optimization possible[07:06:17] <hypernewbie> then you talk about compiz fusion[07:06:21] <Ragnarok> when I had my ATI Radeon HD2400 installed, ubuntu's livecd wouldn't even work[07:06:26] <Ragnarok> unless i pulled it out[07:06:51] * Ragnarok pimp slaps hypernewbie[07:16:21] *** mm765 has quit IRC[07:16:34] *** mm765 has joined ##opengl[07:19:48] *** Lemml has joined ##OpenGL[07:20:17] *** Ragnarok has quit IRC[07:33:09] *** Walt_ has quit IRC[07:40:31] *** Ragnarok has joined ##OpenGL[07:44:43] *** ddbchina has joined ##OpenGL[07:46:16] *** joakim_ has joined ##OpenGL[07:49:02] *** freespace has joined ##opengl[08:00:33] <garou> Woohoo, now I'm failing on a pretty high level.[08:01:17] <Ragnarok> ?[08:01:30] *** t4bz has quit IRC[08:02:26] <garou> Well, I got my code which is a kind of object that draws a pyramid to work. Now I'm trying to patch together my scene graph system.[08:02:44] <garou> And then comes the whole transformations- and camera part.[08:02:57] *** jh559 has quit IRC[08:07:22] *** joakim__ has quit IRC[08:07:35] *** nerdzyboy has quit IRC[08:07:46] *** uchitoru has joined ##OpenGL[08:07:57] <uchitoru> hi all[08:11:09] <uchitoru> is there anyone awake that can tell how do i can put a light over an object and not the whole scene?[08:12:10] <MatthiasM> uchitoru: enable light - draw object - disable light[08:15:17] <uchitoru> thanks, worked just fine[08:15:18] <uchitoru> =)[08:18:48] *** lgbr has joined ##OpenGL[08:19:31] <lgbr> Is GLUT used that much anymore? I'm looking to start doing some OpenGL development in C++, but I'd like portability between operating systems. Is everyone using SDL or...?[08:27:14] *** Ragnarok has quit IRC[08:36:12] *** TheLorax has joined ##opengl[08:37:37] *** hypernewbie has quit IRC[08:39:01] *** XzN`L3g3ndZ has joined ##OpenGL[08:39:35] <garou> lgbr: I got taught glut as *the* OpenGL toolkit at college, so I assume that it's still quite prevalent in the industry, if not selfmade TKs are used.[08:41:27] <garou> I just found http://www.gamedev.net/community/forums/topic.asp?topic_id=444230[08:43:34] <MatthiasM> lgbr: it's mostly used for smaller demo applications[08:44:12] <MatthiasM> it's missing a lot of things like sound, music, video, controllers (joystick, etc)[08:44:25] <lgbr> I was planning on using OpenAL for sound[08:45:03] <lgbr> GLFW seems like a better choice, actually. But it too, seems to be not-so-actively maintained[08:45:30] <MatthiasM> do you really need C++ ? if not take a look at LWJGL[08:46:16] <lgbr> Yeah. I've been a Java developer for years, and I need a break from it[08:46:32] <MatthiasM> well - but why C++ then ?[08:47:35] <lgbr> learning experience[08:47:51] <garou> In my experience you mostly end up writing Java with the C++ pen anyways.[08:47:54] <lgbr> I guess you could say, no good reason at all[08:48:15] <MatthiasM> I would try SDL - it's used in a lot of projects[08:48:32] <garou> If you want a learning experience, why not try a completely other language?[08:49:12] <MatthiasM> eg Lua with an OpenGL binding ?[08:49:30] <lgbr> I'm writing a game, and C++ is the dominate language for that.[08:49:33] <garou> Lua, Scheme, Python, Smalltalk...[08:49:40] <lgbr> Sure I could go off and write it in Haskell, but that's not exactly practical[08:50:10] <MatthiasM> lgbr: I suggest that you take a look at C++, SDL, Lua and Luajit[08:50:41] <MatthiasM> Lua is used in a lot of games lately - eg WoW, Supreme Commander, etc ...[08:50:50] *** geocalc_ has joined ##opengl[08:50:59] <lgbr> will do[08:51:21] <MatthiasM> you can use it for UI, Mission/Cutscene scripting and AI etc[08:52:14] *** joakim__ has joined ##OpenGL[08:53:26] *** geocalc has quit IRC[08:55:20] *** dv_ has quit IRC[08:56:20] *** dv_ has joined ##OpenGL[08:56:30] *** geocalc_ has quit IRC[08:56:47] *** geocalc has joined ##opengl[08:56:57] <garou> Apropos, what are all you guys working on ATM?[08:58:28] <garou> Games, demos, real work? ^^[09:02:22] *** Walt has joined ##opengl[09:03:55] *** Plagman has quit IRC[09:04:09] *** Plagman has joined ##OpenGL[09:05:06] *** Plagman has quit IRC[09:05:21] *** Plagman has joined ##OpenGL[09:05:28] *** Plagman has quit IRC[09:05:56] *** TheLorax has quit IRC[09:08:30] *** Plagman has joined ##OpenGL[09:09:39] *** joakim_ has quit IRC[09:11:52] *** Lemml has quit IRC[09:11:56] *** Plagman has quit IRC[09:12:36] *** Lemml has joined ##OpenGL[09:14:53] *** Plagman has joined ##OpenGL[09:28:07] *** groton has joined ##OpenGL[09:31:37] *** groton has quit IRC[09:31:38] *** Yustme has joined ##opengl[09:31:48] *** groton has joined ##OpenGL[09:33:52] *** _boto has joined ##opengl[09:34:44] *** juanmabc has joined ##opengl[09:48:30] *** darka has joined ##opengl[09:51:48] *** neoneye2 has joined ##OpenGL[09:52:54] *** IJs\laptop has joined ##OpenGL[09:54:21] *** blbmp has left ##OpenGL[09:59:50] *** ajww has quit IRC[10:01:03] *** Walt has quit IRC[10:04:37] *** ddbchina has left ##OpenGL[10:08:50] *** dispraekailo has quit IRC[10:09:08] *** dispraekailo has joined ##OpenGL[10:09:33] *** nathan_ has joined ##OpenGL[10:20:35] *** nathan_ has quit IRC[10:20:57] *** nathan_ has joined ##OpenGL[10:24:01] *** Walt has joined ##opengl[10:26:17] *** Roderic has joined ##OpenGL[10:26:18] *** Roderic is now known as Ingenu[10:27:11] *** groton has quit IRC[10:29:23] *** groton has joined ##OpenGL[10:29:38] *** Rangar has joined ##OpenGL[10:46:44] *** Burga has quit IRC[10:49:39] *** jh559 has joined ##opengl[11:00:14] *** BahamutZERO has joined ##OpenGL[11:00:53] *** neoneye2 is now known as neoneye[11:17:15] *** nathan_ has quit IRC[11:24:34] *** Bollinger has joined ##opengl[11:25:35] *** neoneye has quit IRC[11:27:38] *** Walt has quit IRC[11:31:59] *** ced117 has joined ##OpenGL[11:32:02] *** t4bz has joined ##OpenGL[11:58:09] *** Suprano has quit IRC[11:58:14] *** marenz_ has joined ##OpenGL[11:58:43] *** Maerz has joined ##OpenGL[11:59:50] *** thesquib has quit IRC[12:02:12] *** prophile has joined ##opengl[12:13:35] *** neoneurone has joined ##OpenGL[12:14:43] *** Xmas| has joined ##OpenGL[12:18:19] *** _boto has quit IRC[12:44:24] *** Burga has joined ##OpenGL[12:44:56] *** nathan_ has joined ##OpenGL[13:00:27] *** charlie5 has quit IRC[13:02:00] *** AmabassadortoPol has joined ##OpenGL[13:02:24] *** dv_ has quit IRC[13:07:28] <Makegho> Is it not possible to use glDrawElements or something like it to also give index lists for normals and texture coordinates?[13:08:11] *** lolage0 has quit IRC[13:10:23] *** dv_ has joined ##OpenGL[13:12:59] *** Suprano has joined ##OpenGL[13:13:08] <Xmas|> no, that's not possible[13:14:29] <Makegho> Okay, thanks. I'll just create a good list of vertices myself then.[13:14:54] *** charlie5 has joined ##OpenGL[13:16:27] *** marenz_ has quit IRC[13:17:15] *** charlie5 has quit IRC[13:18:46] *** HyperNewbie has joined ##OpenGL[13:27:16] *** mattn2|home has joined ##OpenGL[13:35:08] *** filmor has joined ##OpenGL[13:43:42] *** filmor has quit IRC[13:46:51] *** smiler has quit IRC[13:52:54] *** groton has quit IRC[13:53:18] *** prophile has quit IRC[13:57:59] *** blight_ has joined ##opengl[14:01:41] *** juanmabc has quit IRC[14:11:15] *** m4ggus has joined ##opengl[14:12:10] *** replor has joined ##OpenGL[14:12:42] *** replor has quit IRC[14:14:24] *** groton has joined ##OpenGL[14:15:56] *** jh559 has quit IRC[14:16:05] *** Xmas| has quit IRC[14:17:28] *** HyperNewbie has quit IRC[14:24:22] *** charlie5 has joined ##OpenGL[14:28:58] *** charlie55 has joined ##OpenGL[14:34:03] *** charlie555 has joined ##OpenGL[14:39:26] *** Suprano has quit IRC[14:46:45] *** jh559 has joined ##opengl[14:52:32] *** LtJax has joined ##OpenGL[14:53:14] *** charlie5 has quit IRC[14:54:01] *** nathan_ has quit IRC[14:54:20] *** nathan_ has joined ##OpenGL[14:57:35] *** charlie55 has quit IRC[15:00:39] *** lolage0 has joined ##OpenGL[15:03:18] *** Xmas| has joined ##OpenGL[15:03:52] *** charlie555 has quit IRC[15:11:00] *** replor has joined ##OpenGL[15:14:50] *** odietsch has joined ##OpenGL[15:23:19] *** Watermelon2 has joined ##OpenGL[15:24:53] *** groton has quit IRC[15:29:04] <garou> I'm a little unsure what the stencil buffer does, even after reading the redbook about it... Well, that's not exactly right. What the HECK does it do??[15:29:25] <garou> It applies some test to... Huh? And what test?[15:30:00] <MatthiasM> the tests that you specify[15:31:22] <garou> That'd be GL_NEVER, GL_ALWAYS, GL_LESS, GL_LEQUAL, GL_EQUAL, GL_GEQUAL, GL_GREATER, or GL_NOTEQUAL?[15:31:35] <hibread> garou: for instance you can render something to the screen and use that render as a mask for future renders[15:31:58] *** Watermelon2 has quit IRC[15:32:02] <MatthiasM> garou: google for stencil shadow as an example[15:33:21] *** jh559 has quit IRC[15:34:29] <garou> Reading http://www.gamedev.net/reference/articles/article1873.asp, thanks.[15:40:24] *** juanmabc has joined ##opengl[15:42:09] *** neoneye has joined ##OpenGL[15:51:52] *** LordMetroid has joined ##OpenGL[15:53:38] *** rutski has joined ##OpenGL[15:59:34] *** nathan_ has quit IRC[16:00:48] *** lordmetroid_ has joined ##OpenGL[16:02:14] *** lordmetroid_ has quit IRC[16:03:02] *** Xmas| has quit IRC[16:03:33] <garou> Okaaay... I'm still not really sure what the stencil buffer does, though I start getting an idea, I have no idea how its results then become actual shadows, and it seems I'm on the topic of shadow volumes be better off with vertex shaders, anyway... ^^[16:03:56] *** Watermelon2 has joined ##OpenGL[16:04:10] <garou> But I bet that there are another few uses for it...[16:04:33] *** Watermelon2 has quit IRC[16:16:37] *** rnx has joined ##opengl[16:16:52] *** LordMetroid has quit IRC[16:19:30] *** Walt has joined ##opengl[16:23:57] *** LordMetroid has joined ##OpenGL[16:33:09] *** m4ggus has quit IRC[16:33:32] *** juanmabc has quit IRC[16:35:31] *** m4ggus has joined ##opengl[16:37:16] *** peda_ has quit IRC[16:37:22] *** peda_ has joined ##OpenGL[16:39:03] <Jupp3> garou: stencil buffer isn't really about shadows[16:39:14] <Jupp3> But rather, it can be (among other things) used to create shadows[16:40:42] <Jupp3> Let's say you wanted to create a circle on the screen, which shows picture through walls etc.[16:41:01] <Jupp3> But would not block mountains in the distance, or something[16:41:39] *** KU0N has joined ##OpenGL[16:41:44] <Jupp3> Basically, you could first render the mountains, then draw circle to stencil buffer, set stencil test to "draw only when stencil is not 0", and draw the walls[16:44:59] *** Walt has quit IRC[16:45:30] <KU0N> hello[16:51:56] *** X-Scale has joined ##OpenGL[16:58:18] *** dvoid_ has joined ##OpenGL[17:01:12] *** dv_ has quit IRC[17:02:07] *** dv_ has joined ##OpenGL[17:07:58] *** LtJax has quit IRC[17:11:35] *** Eltran has joined ##OpenGL[17:13:07] <Eltran> hey, is there an opensource project which features that http://hosted.zeh.com.br/doom3/tutorials/tut0_elevator.jpg ? i'd like to know the basis to do the same thing in my engine...[17:15:00] *** mm765 is now known as mm765^away[17:19:49] *** jh559 has joined ##opengl[17:19:59] *** madsy_ has joined ##opengl[17:20:19] *** jh559 is now known as amalon[17:20:19] *** Madsy has quit IRC[17:22:26] *** Lacerta-2 has joined ##OpenGL[17:24:05] *** User01_ has joined ##OpenGL[17:24:10] <User01_> hi[17:25:31] <garou> The more I read about what stunts you can do with advanced OpenGL techniques, the more convoluted a renderer that can mix them looks to me...[17:27:01] <User01_> http://www.enregistrersous.com/images2/196553238620080511152410.png alpha dont seem to work[17:27:30] <User01_> i use FBO + Multisample[17:27:42] *** AmabassadortoPol has quit IRC[17:27:57] <User01_> in normal render it work[17:28:10] <User01_> but fbo not[17:28:31] *** fargiolas has joined ##OpenGL[17:30:08] *** the_darkside_986 has quit IRC[17:37:47] <Lacerta-2> hi, i was asking about FBO texture formats yesterday, i didn't seem to get a working FBO[17:38:15] <Lacerta-2> now when i set texture mag- and min filters to linear everything started working okay :)[17:38:30] <Lacerta-2> i knew there was a silly mistake and now i found it[17:38:40] <hibread> nearest should work too[17:39:07] <Lacerta-2> don't know about that, what is the default filter?[17:40:07] <hibread> id have image maybe linear? not sure. I always set it explicitly[17:40:14] <hibread> *imagine[17:41:25] <Lacerta-2> don't seem to be linear here, anyway I probably shouldn't count on default values :)[17:42:35] <Lacerta-2> my function tests about 36k combinations currently and about 25% yields FRAMEBUFFER_COMPLETE[17:43:32] <Lacerta-2> just if anyone should find that interesting :)[17:46:03] <hibread> combinations of what exactly?[17:46:22] <Lacerta-2> texture formats[17:46:54] <hibread> are you testing say GL_RGBA8 with GL_FLOAT etc?[17:47:43] <Lacerta-2> actually i got very frustrated and tested every single define i found in gl.h and glext.h[17:49:00] <Lacerta-2> i further ignored those that yielded GL_INVALID_ENUM and tested only those that worked with most basic formats/internals/types[17:49:58] <Lacerta-2> to answer your question, i bet that combination is among the tested ones[17:50:28] *** karabash has joined ##OpenGL[17:53:58] <Lacerta-2> well, i'm off to enjoy Mother's day dinner, see you later[17:54:38] *** fargiolas_ has joined ##OpenGL[17:58:09] *** User01_ has quit IRC[18:00:02] *** HuntsMan has quit IRC[18:11:52] *** m4ggus has quit IRC[18:16:07] *** fargiolas_ has quit IRC[18:16:42] *** fargiolas_ has joined ##OpenGL[18:18:51] *** fargiolas has quit IRC[18:40:57] *** karabash has quit IRC[18:42:28] *** HuntsMan has joined ##opengl[18:43:19] <garou> I'm using gluLookAt() to control the "camera". When I invoke it only once, everything's fine. If I use it before or after drawing the scene, every few frames the scenery just mirrors.[18:43:27] <garou> Left and right get exchanged.[18:44:58] <garou> To be precise, using it before glutMainLoop() (Yes, I know...) works, but using it in the display function fails.[18:45:23] *** Xmas| has joined ##OpenGL[18:48:43] <hibread> garou: code?[18:49:30] <Lacerta-2> perhaps it's the up_vector[18:50:31] <Lacerta-2> or not..[18:55:40] <garou> I can give you the complete code, but it's mostly a (working) mess, so here's the problematic snippet: http://rafb.net/p/14MDuX65.html[18:56:15] <garou> However, scm_display_func really doesn't do anything besides setting colors and vertices.[19:00:05] <HuntsMan> well did you glLoadIdentity() before using gluLookAt?[19:00:18] <HuntsMan> as previous contents of the matrices would make weird things happen[19:00:36] *** gaffa has joined ##opengl[19:00:44] <garou> Nnno, not yet. I'll add it. But I don't touch any matrix so far.[19:01:21] <HuntsMan> using gluLookAt you do it :0[19:01:22] <HuntsMan> :)[19:01:33] <HuntsMan> as it multiplies the current matrix with the gluLookAt-Generated one[19:02:02] <garou> Oooohthanks.[19:02:53] <garou> Yup, that works wonders. :)[19:03:03] <HuntsMan> :D[19:03:52] <garou> Now comes the a little more complicated part... ^^[19:06:27] *** karabash has joined ##OpenGL[19:08:35] *** mm765^away is now known as mm765[19:17:32] *** Ragnarok has joined ##OpenGL[19:17:34] <Ragnarok> wow opengl is actually way faster in Qt4 than it ever was in win32 and sdl[19:18:28] <Ragnarok> doing nehe lession 8 the star thingy, the shit is moving too fast xD[19:18:49] <HuntsMan> sure, that's called a "event loop" :P[19:18:54] <HuntsMan> that's why it's faster[19:19:07] <Ragnarok> but win32 is event looped too[19:19:08] <Ragnarok> :P[19:19:16] <Ragnarok> well message loop same thing[19:19:24] *** davidc__ has joined ##opengl[19:19:45] <HuntsMan> no, not the exactly the same thing[19:19:59] <HuntsMan> the Qt loop runs more times in a second, so seems to be faster[19:20:15] *** davidc__ has quit IRC[19:20:18] <HuntsMan> just call a slot that redraws from a QTimer to controll the update time[19:20:39] <Ragnarok> yeah i have that at 0 interval :P[19:20:50] *** davidc__ has joined ##opengl[19:21:12] <HuntsMan> lol![19:21:13] <hibread> Ragnarok: thats obviously Qt4 on windows?[19:21:27] <Ragnarok> nope[19:21:31] <Ragnarok> Qt4 on Gentoo[19:21:42] <hibread> how does it run on windows? hav eyou tried?[19:21:47] <Ragnarok> nope[19:22:04] <Ragnarok> i don't feel like compiling Qt4 on Windows right now[19:22:16] <hibread> yeah i haven't gotten around to it yet either[19:22:22] <Ragnarok> well there is wine and building a cross-compiler[19:22:35] <Ragnarok> but meh right now[19:22:41] <HuntsMan> Ragnarok: well you don't have to, just compile your app in Windows[19:22:52] <HuntsMan> as Qt comes pre-built for Windows[19:23:06] <Ragnarok> yeah with a old ass gcc[19:23:25] <HuntsMan> no, with mingw :P[19:23:44] <Ragnarok> yeah mingw is slow[19:23:49] <Ragnarok> is old*[19:23:51] <Ragnarok> my bad[19:24:05] <HuntsMan> well it works[19:24:16] <Ragnarok> yeah right now im using gcc-4.3.1[19:25:20] <hibread> so what is the best option for compiling on windows these days? Getting the free MS compiler? toolkit or what ever[19:25:30] <Ragnarok> pretty much[19:25:56] <Ragnarok> unless ur doing C[19:26:05] <Ragnarok> then mingw[19:26:09] <Ragnarok> or cygwin[19:27:28] <Ragnarok> cygwin is garbage lol[19:27:38] <Ragnarok> they never update its packages[19:29:07] *** Suprano has joined ##OpenGL[19:29:40] <Ragnarok> i wish they had a FPS program on linux like they do one windows[19:29:55] <HuntsMan> FPS program?[19:31:13] <Ragnarok> FRAPS[19:34:38] <Satan_Inside> if you only want fullscreen captures then writing one yourself is a fairly trivial matter[19:34:53] <Ragnarok> i don't need capturing just the FPS counter[19:35:10] <Satan_Inside> if you need to crop and capture windowed applications (on a window by window basis etc.) its a bit trickier[19:35:28] <Satan_Inside> well that is even simpler[19:36:13] <Ragnarok> yeah i want to have a FPS on the window, of any gl app i use[19:37:19] *** TheLorax has joined ##opengl[19:40:32] <Ragnarok> blah nehe's is down :([19:40:46] <Ragnarok> i wish i could find a site that has its tutorials :([19:42:01] *** Ingenu has quit IRC[19:45:51] *** uchi has joined ##OpenGL[19:45:59] *** gaffa has quit IRC[19:48:32] *** charlie5 has joined ##OpenGL[19:51:15] *** obmij has joined ##OpenGL[19:51:22] <obmij> Any word on OpenGL?[19:51:38] *** sohail has joined ##OpenGL[19:52:54] <HuntsMan> word/[19:52:54] <HuntsMan> :B[19:52:57] <HuntsMan> ?[19:53:09] *** hrehf has joined ##opengl[19:54:09] <Ragnarok> obmij, what kind of word[19:54:54] *** uchitoru has quit IRC[19:55:27] <obmij> on when it's coming out.[19:55:34] <obmij> actually any word...[19:55:44] <obmij> Did the khornos group go missing?[19:57:44] *** wolfeySI has joined ##OpenGL[19:58:17] <obmij> Oops I dropped a 3.0[19:58:29] <obmij> what I actually meant to say was any word on OpenGL 3.0[19:59:03] * obmij is right now suffering from a saturday night hangover[20:00:04] <TheLorax> yeah really. I thought that'd be out AGES ago. directX is pulling ahead[20:00:14] <obmij> That is kinda sad[20:00:33] <obmij> In fact, DirectX is the only reason M$ is staying in Business[20:01:31] <HuntsMan> pulling ahead?[20:01:41] <obmij> yes HuntsMan, pulling ahead[20:01:47] <obmij> DirectX10 is out with geometery shaders[20:01:57] <TheLorax> opengl can do them too[20:02:00] <HuntsMan> yeah[20:02:07] <obmij> since when actually?[20:02:15] <HuntsMan> sine the G80 came out[20:02:18] <TheLorax> since they came out[20:02:22] * obmij checks[20:02:29] <HuntsMan> using GL_EXT_geometry_shader4 or something like that[20:02:34] <Satan_Inside> since EXT_geometry_shader was published as an extension[20:02:40] <HuntsMan> i'm just using G80 extensions for doing integer math on a GeForce 8400 + ArchLinux[20:02:41] <Satan_Inside> and EXT_gpu_shader4[20:02:52] <HuntsMan> on fragment shaders[20:02:55] <Satan_Inside> and those aren't specific to Nvidia either[20:03:05] <HuntsMan> yeah[20:03:12] <obmij> Hmm[20:03:22] <obmij> the wikipedia page makes it look like it is due to be release in Mt Evans[20:03:37] <HuntsMan> that's CORE support, not support coming from extensions[20:03:42] <obmij> ahh[20:03:54] <Satan_Inside> HuntsMan I'd be interested in hearing about those shaders[20:04:21] <obmij> Well that was interesting to know[20:04:36] <Satan_Inside> I'm interested in seeing what people are doing w/ the SM4 stuff exposed through GL via the programmable pipeline (specifically EXT_gpu_shader4, EXT_geometry_shader)[20:04:50] <obmij> but I'm eagerly awaiting 3.0's release. I've head programming will be much different, so I'm kinding of wondering whether to wait for 3.0 or not.[20:05:09] <HuntsMan> Satan_Inside: i implemented a integer to float hash function to do something like perlin noise[20:05:12] <obmij> heard*[20:05:26] <HuntsMan> 100% GPU, no texture fetch needed[20:05:33] <Satan_Inside> is this shader public?[20:05:40] <HuntsMan> not yet[20:06:15] <wolfeySI> could somebody help me newbie please.. i have points of object from x,y 0-500, z 0-200... i try to calculate surface at least i get some points... now when i try to draw them as cubess i see nothhing at all[20:06:58] *** charlie5 is now known as charlie_zzz[20:11:31] <obmij> HuntsMan, real time?[20:13:36] <Satan_Inside> doing perlin noise in RT (depending upon the surface size) is quite reasonable on current generation hardware[20:14:22] <obmij> yeah so wondering how big of a surface he's working with :)[20:14:37] <obmij> and what 'smoothness'[20:14:54] <Satan_Inside> in fact with the vast increases in ALU resources (versus TEX bandwidth) with each successive generation of hardware more content should be moving towards procedural generation versus offline[20:15:19] <obmij> yes of course[20:15:43] *** uchitoru has joined ##OpenGL[20:15:55] <obmij> but then again, some content are sometimes just better off being done offline[20:16:38] <obmij> Because you'd like to have the most accurate data (regardless of how long it's going to take to produce it)[20:17:00] <obmij> and if you want to do that in realtime, we might need another 50 years of hardware innovation :D[20:18:04] <obmij> But a lot of things are moving into the 'real time' domain[20:18:09] <Satan_Inside> no one stated that "procedural versus offline content generation" was a "all or nothing" issue[20:19:03] <Satan_Inside> the fact that it isn't should be obvious to anyone working (or fooling around) in this business[20:19:22] <obmij> yes of course, all true words[20:19:33] *** hibread has quit IRC[20:19:42] <obmij> by the way, just wondering... Laveyan Satanist? or the name sounded cool :D[20:19:46] <Satan_Inside> OTOH the fact of the matter is that "real-time commodity graphics" is a business long founded upon all sorts of hacks and approximations[20:20:00] <Satan_Inside> and if in the end it looks good enough then well... its good enough[20:20:10] <obmij> Of course[20:20:47] <obmij> 'lambertian diffuse' 'specular highlist' heck or even bigger hacks 'parallax' 'Fresnel'[20:20:51] <Satan_Inside> if one wants "offline quality" well... Pixar's RenderMan is out there for you :D[20:20:55] <obmij> highlights*[20:21:12] *** davidc__ has quit IRC[20:21:31] <obmij> Oh no what I mean by offline is not necessarily what you see rendered[20:21:38] *** hibread has joined ##opengl[20:21:49] <obmij> but a set of data that you use constantly during your real time rendering[20:22:03] <Satan_Inside> I know exactly what you meant[20:22:05] *** davidc__ has joined ##opengl[20:22:10] *** DMINATOR has joined ##OpenGL[20:22:21] <Satan_Inside> and that doesn't change what I just said above[20:22:51] <obmij> doesn't Pixar's Renderman just render scenes?[20:23:12] <obmij> You might as well be able to produce that data using Mathematica :)[20:23:21] *** wolfeySI has quit IRC[20:24:25] <Satan_Inside> in any case using LUTs on the GPU was a much better solution in the past (and yes even in the present for certain ASICs due to IEEE issues and so forth) than it is (specifically at the higher end) right now[20:24:54] <obmij> Any they using something else?[20:25:04] <obmij> rather than LUTs and MUXs ? :P[20:25:17] <obmij> So they have a 'FPGA' like approach right now?[20:25:25] <obmij> or did use...[20:25:26] <Satan_Inside> with the advent of fully compliant (outside of specials and denorms) IEEE 754 in the pipeline GPUs are much better at scaling with CPUs in the realm of accuracy then they were in the past[20:25:57] <Satan_Inside> getting better with each passing generation in fact[20:26:11] <Satan_Inside> by LUT I mean lookup table[20:26:14] *** NeoThermic has quit IRC[20:26:15] <obmij> I know[20:26:24] <Satan_Inside> i.e. indirect texture sample generated via the CPU offline[20:26:41] <obmij> ahh I was looking from a completely hardware perspective at that term XD[20:27:03] <obmij> FPGAs, LUTs, multiplexers in chips etc.[20:27:16] <Satan_Inside> indeed[20:27:27] <Satan_Inside> and completely irrelevant for our conversation here[20:27:32] <obmij> :D[20:27:55] *** uchi has quit IRC[20:28:03] *** Ragnarok has quit IRC[20:30:47] *** NeoThermic has joined ##opengl[20:33:19] <Satan_Inside> and if you were curious about what PRMan happens to use (i.e. REYES) I'd suggest scanning through the following classic paper: http://graphics.pixar.com/Reyes/[20:33:57] <Satan_Inside> needless to say you can think of REYES as a very powerful micropolygon rasterizer[20:35:19] <Satan_Inside> with a bit of RT thrown in for natural lighting etc. as required[20:36:16] *** blbmp has joined ##OpenGL[20:36:26] <obmij> I see[20:37:19] <Satan_Inside> in fact REYES itself is also viable for commodity GPU acceleration[20:37:32] <Satan_Inside> and in certain cases *is* accelerated[20:38:11] <Satan_Inside> see people... there is still quite a bit of life left in this old boy yet :D[20:38:46] <obmij> :)[20:39:46] <obmij> I'm more anxious about OpenGL 3.0 being released than GPUs getting faster[20:42:10] *** karabash has quit IRC[20:42:30] *** fargiolas_ has quit IRC[20:43:58] *** TheLorax has quit IRC[20:44:06] <obmij> by the way, at one point Microsoft was claiming to make its OpenGL drivers a wrapper for Direct3D... was this just a big scare?[20:44:16] <obmij> and nothing really happened? or did they actually do such a thing?[20:44:47] *** TurboAWAY has quit IRC[20:48:21] <hibread> obmij: do microsoft even write opengl drivers? Dont the hardware vendors normally write them for their own gear?[20:48:36] *** uchi has joined ##OpenGL[20:48:37] <Satan_Inside> yes we do[20:49:28] <obmij> Yeah but there's always a default one I think[20:49:37] <Satan_Inside> the IHVs (i.e. Nvidia, Intel, ATI / AMD, ...) control the entire GL stack on Windows... at least for any accelerated renderers[20:49:49] <Satan_Inside> which is what the client cares about[20:50:00] *** fargiolas_ has joined ##OpenGL[20:50:01] <obmij> Yes of course, but I was wondering about the claim itself[20:50:09] <obmij> about the 'non-accelerated' OCD itself[20:50:19] <obmij> Did they do such a thing?[20:50:34] <Satan_Inside> again no one cares about non accelerated renderers[20:50:46] <obmij> Count me as the first.[20:50:48] <obmij> :D[20:51:13] <Satan_Inside> you aren't going to ship an application on a non accelerated renderer and even if you were you would be much better off writing your own SW rasterizer[20:51:24] <obmij> true true[20:51:32] <obmij> it's just the claim that I'm wondering about[20:51:40] <obmij> just seeing how far they went about doing that[20:51:44] <hibread> Satan_Inside: another nick change? I'm not going to guess at how many nicks you've had before even that one[20:51:45] <Satan_Inside> so you "as the first" comment is meaningless :D[20:52:42] <obmij> M$ and their strategies after screwing up Vista sometimes seems interesting and pathetic[20:52:52] <HuntsMan> obmij: yeah, real time[20:52:55] <obmij> like a panicked 12 year old[20:52:59] <obmij> HuntsMan, nice[20:53:20] <obmij> 'Let's ruin OpenGL!' 'Let's make D3D10 Vista only' 'Let's...'[20:53:36] *** hibread has quit IRC[20:55:08] *** n00b5559 has joined ##OpenGL[20:59:02] *** n00b5559 has quit IRC[20:59:55] *** uchitoru has quit IRC[21:04:01] *** dv_ has quit IRC[21:13:51] <HuntsMan> obmij: IMHO, MS screwed himself with Vista[21:15:19] *** hrehf_ has joined ##opengl[21:15:55] *** m4ggus has joined ##opengl[21:15:58] *** uchitoru has joined ##OpenGL[21:16:35] <obmij> It did, but now it has panicked and its abusing its power to certain degrees[21:16:43] <obmij> as a small hope to pull itself out of its own misery[21:16:59] <obmij> it's abusing*[21:19:42] *** hrehf has quit IRC[21:19:43] *** hrehf_ is now known as hrehf[21:22:03] *** Baba_ has joined ##OpenGL[21:23:19] *** Baba__ has joined ##OpenGL[21:23:47] *** Baba__ is now known as baballama[21:28:10] *** uchi has quit IRC[21:29:58] *** Ragnarok has joined ##OpenGL[21:30:49] <Ragnarok> im having trouble with running nehe's lesson 7, when I tilt it other than its normal tilt angle, blending disappears, but if i move it back to the normal default angle it comes back[21:30:50] <Ragnarok> http://pastie.caboo.se/195213[21:36:09] <Ragnarok> ah i got it, somehow i have to disable depth test if i use blending[21:36:14] <Ragnarok> iono why[21:38:07] <madsy_> Because you don't want to discard fragments.[21:38:20] <madsy_> You want to run a blending function on them.[21:38:37] *** Baba has quit IRC[21:39:04] <madsy_> And you usally don't disable the depth testing. You turn off writes to the depth buffer with glDepthMask[21:39:07] <madsy_> usually'[21:40:14] *** Baba_ has quit IRC[21:40:49] *** noteventime has joined ##OpenGL[21:42:12] *** LordMetroid has quit IRC[21:44:15] *** xonev has joined ##OpenGL[21:46:33] *** uchitoru has quit IRC[21:46:47] *** amalon has quit IRC[21:57:48] <obmij> If I call glUseProgram (0) no shader programs will be used ... is that correct?[21:58:42] *** amalon has joined ##opengl[22:01:11] <Satan_Inside> yep[22:05:13] *** darka has quit IRC[22:12:03] *** thesquib has joined ##OpenGL[22:13:28] *** neoneye has quit IRC[22:15:51] <madsy_> Satan_Inside: I prefered your FeelGood nick[22:16:14] *** Xmas| has quit IRC[22:18:15] <Satan_Inside> ?[22:18:35] <Satan_Inside> you must have me confused with someone else[22:19:21] *** fargiolas_ has quit IRC[22:20:11] *** juanmabc has joined ##opengl[22:25:02] <rutski> Is it wrong to call glGetError() in between a Begin/End?[22:25:14] <rutski> nm, http://www.opengl.org/documentation/specs/man_pages/hardcopy/GL/html/gl/geterror.html[22:28:54] *** magnet__ has quit IRC[22:29:17] *** davidc__ has quit IRC[22:29:59] *** Lekane has quit IRC[22:30:14] *** davidc__ has joined ##opengl[22:42:53] *** KU0N has quit IRC[22:55:38] *** DobosCake has joined ##OpenGL[23:00:40] *** Ralith has joined ##OpenGL[23:07:48] *** ced117 has quit IRC[23:09:58] *** DobosCake has quit IRC[23:10:05] *** DobosCake has joined ##OpenGL[23:15:44] *** prophile has joined ##opengl[23:16:38] *** TheLorax has joined ##opengl[23:18:51] *** prophile has quit IRC[23:19:43] *** DobosCake_ has joined ##OpenGL[23:20:14] *** DobosCake has quit IRC[23:20:57] *** thesquib has quit IRC[23:21:39] *** m4ggus has quit IRC[23:26:00] *** Xmas| has joined ##OpenGL[23:27:44] *** DobosCake_ is now known as DobosCake[23:36:46] *** magnet_ has joined ##OpenGL[23:37:07] *** TheLorax has quit IRC[23:38:59] *** ville has quit IRC[23:39:13] *** m4ggus has joined ##opengl[23:55:10] *** magnet__ has joined ##OpenGL[23:57:03] *** ville has joined ##opengl[23:59:20] *** Lemml has quit IRC