December 9, 2013 
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December 9, 2013 [00:01:39] *** devZzzZzz has quit IRC[00:03:03] *** ako has quit IRC[00:09:06] *** ra4king has quit IRC[00:09:33] *** ra4king has joined #lwjgl[00:20:24] <nbf> lol[00:20:26] <nbf> http://www.michigan-colocation.com/images/colofront.jpg[00:20:34] <nbf> my rack is in that picture near the end[00:20:52] *** aho has joined #lwjgl[00:30:06] <monty_hall> I was thinking of a different kind of rack :P[00:30:37] *** Unimatrix325 has quit IRC[00:30:42] <monty_hall> dude, I just found out you can change the route w/ google maps[00:30:57] <monty_hall> usually the directions are sufficient[00:30:59] <nbf> you mean drag?[00:31:02] <monty_hall> but this one was way off[00:31:07] <monty_hall> yes[00:31:16] <nbf> I use that feature all the time for determining good bike routes[00:31:27] <nbf> I like taking more scenic routes[00:31:51] <monty_hall> there's a cursor you can drag which is a constraint that snaps to the nearest road[00:31:53] <monty_hall> very handy[00:32:20] <monty_hall> oh google, if you didn't f' with all my personal stuff, I'd kiss you[00:40:09] <nbf> it's so awesome being able to do ./update_colo and have it update our ~20 machines[00:40:34] <nbf> it used to suck updating, would take like a day out of each month[00:42:16] <nbf> now that i have it going off our local mirror, I think I'll do it each sunday[00:46:50] <nbf> MatthiasM: going to have a short outage in a bit[00:53:36] *** nbf has quit IRC[00:54:20] *** ruben011 has joined #lwjgl[00:56:52] *** ruben01 has quit IRC[01:02:32] *** nbf has joined #lwjgl[01:02:32] *** nbf has joined #lwjgl[01:02:45] <nbf> boomshakalaka[01:04:17] <jezek2> lol[01:21:29] *** void256 has quit IRC[01:24:07] *** Sam4242 has joined #lwjgl[01:40:45] <monty_hall> hello[01:43:09] *** aho has quit IRC[01:47:06] *** Goddesen has quit IRC[01:57:13] <monty_hall> the sex offender registry is always fun to look at[01:57:28] <monty_hall> amazing people who otherwise look normal did some questionable things[01:57:48] <monty_hall> and were imprisoned and live within 10 miles[01:58:06] *** Gooogy has quit IRC[01:58:42] <monty_hall> some family in my sub is letting their brother/sister - who's a registered sex offender - stay with them.[01:58:48] <monty_hall> his photo is plastered all over the sub :P[02:18:48] *** ruben011 has quit IRC[02:22:37] *** ra4king has quit IRC[02:23:05] *** ra4king has joined #lwjgl[02:25:54] *** ra4king has joined #lwjgl[02:31:19] *** ra4king has left #lwjgl[02:31:45] *** ra4king has joined #lwjgl[02:34:52] <nbf> time for some dragonmead![02:40:25] <nbf> nice russian imperial stout[02:40:29] <nbf> which is my current beer fav at the moment[02:50:23] *** Xardov has joined #lwjgl[02:59:47] *** darkfrog has joined #lwjgl[03:12:00] *** Hanack has joined #lwjgl[03:14:31] *** Hanack1 has quit IRC[04:01:45] *** ZeroDivided has quit IRC[04:12:38] *** Irrelium has quit IRC[04:17:43] *** djdduty has quit IRC[04:17:59] *** djdduty has joined #lwjgl[04:33:28] <monty_hall> suckas[04:56:08] <nbf> subsonic with video streaming is piiimp[05:26:59] <monty_hall> that does sound cool[05:27:17] <monty_hall> I have a ton of videos that I'd like to watch while I'm away[06:29:01] *** meoblast001 has quit IRC[06:42:34] *** Sam4242 has quit IRC[07:55:26] *** bgilb has quit IRC[08:05:04] *** Unimatrix325 has joined #lwjgl[08:05:42] *** MatthiasM has quit IRC[08:13:36] *** Unimatrix325 has quit IRC[08:52:14] *** devnewton has joined #lwjgl[09:21:11] *** fella7s has quit IRC[09:24:53] *** fella5s has joined #lwjgl[10:13:45] *** Raven67854 has quit IRC[11:05:47] *** nephilim_ has joined #lwjgl[11:18:01] *** Unimatrix325 has joined #lwjgl[11:25:34] *** badlogic has quit IRC[11:36:57] *** Goddesen has joined #lwjgl[11:38:41] *** djdduty has quit IRC[11:45:40] *** magentar has joined #lwjgl[11:46:18] *** bmahe has quit IRC[11:54:06] *** djdoody has joined #lwjgl[12:06:25] <lwjglbot> lwjglforum: Re: Picking 3D <http://lwjgl.org/forum/index.php/topic,5253.msg28079.html#msg28079>[12:13:46] *** magentar has quit IRC[12:14:38] *** djdoody has quit IRC[12:15:03] *** Raven67854 has joined #lwjgl[12:34:58] *** Irrelium has joined #lwjgl[12:36:09] *** Sopheria has quit IRC[12:47:30] *** devnewton has quit IRC[13:26:07] *** Sopheria has joined #lwjgl[13:26:52] *** CLT|Stiotic has joined #lwjgl[13:27:36] <CLT|Stiotic> Hello[13:32:44] *** peter1 has joined #lwjgl[14:22:57] <CLT|Stiotic> Anyone got a good tutorial that explains 3d texturing in lwjgl?[14:23:26] <MatthiasM2> search for OpenGL tutorials[14:26:47] <CLT|Stiotic> But i dont know c++[14:28:29] <jezek2> CLT|Stiotic: opengl calls are largely language agnostic[14:29:03] <jezek2> I think there are some tutorials that messes with C++, but you can just ignore them and use the majority that deals with plain C[14:29:33] <CLT|Stiotic> yeah but the rest makes it so hard if you have no clue about anything than java, atleast for a beginner like me[14:30:48] *** aho has joined #lwjgl[14:32:26] <CLT|Stiotic> maybe i should learn c...[14:35:22] <jezek2> or you can ask about specific things here[14:35:42] <jezek2> we can tell you the differences between lwjgl/java and c[14:36:31] <Xardov> CLT|Stiotic: if you're a beginner then you shouldn't be learning OpenGL =\[14:36:38] <jezek2> it's almost like mirror, just some small changes (mostly for things that are not needed in java thanks to method overloading)[14:37:13] <Xardov> also how's it going everyone?[14:37:16] <jezek2> CLT|Stiotic: there are also lwjgl specific tutorials[14:37:23] <jezek2> I think ra4king did some[14:37:27] <Xardov> also - ra4king made a java port of the arcysnthesis tuts[14:38:31] <jezek2> https://bitbucket.org/ra4king/lwjgl-shader-tutorials[14:38:34] <jezek2> I think this is it :)[14:38:41] <CLT|Stiotic> Xardov, Im not a beginner with java... Ive been progrraming a few years now i just never looked into c or c++ (which all the good stuff is explained in) also its going good, and thanks for the help everyone :)[14:38:45] <CLT|Stiotic> Thanks jezek2[14:42:54] <Xardov> NEW GOAL[14:43:01] <Xardov> learn SDL in time for Ludum Dare[14:43:48] <jezek2> Xardov: for 2D or 3D stuff? :)[14:44:00] <jezek2> they added some 2d stuff into SDL2[14:44:16] <jezek2> with multiple backends, opengl, software, d3d even :)[14:44:27] <Xardov> jezek2: yeah 2D[14:44:37] <Xardov> Imagine making a 3D game for Ludum Dare with just SDL =P[14:44:50] <jezek2> though I'm not sure if SDL2 then constitutes *Simple* DirectMedia Layer anymore ;)[14:45:09] <Xardov> haha[14:45:13] <Xardov> it's still really good though[14:45:16] <jezek2> for my needs I'm staying with 1.2 because that way I'm guaranteed to get pure SW backend[14:45:21] <Xardov> SW?[14:45:41] <jezek2> yeah for my software 3d renderer[14:45:51] <Xardov> oh[15:00:49] *** Jeanne-Kamikaze has joined #lwjgl[15:01:48] *** Xardov has quit IRC[15:08:24] *** CLT|Stiotic_ has joined #lwjgl[15:09:40] <CLT|Stiotic_> http://puu.sh/5H9Le.png whats this error?[15:12:12] *** CLT|Stiotic has quit IRC[15:19:20] <CLT|Stiotic_> "The constructor Mesh(URL) refers to the missing type XmlPullParserException"[15:31:09] *** LennarT_ has joined #lwjgl[15:31:48] *** LennarT_ has left #lwjgl[15:33:50] *** peter1 has quit IRC[15:36:35] <jezek2> CLT|Stiotic_: seems missing library, try this: http://www.extreme.indiana.edu/xgws/xsoap/xpp/mxp1/[15:37:20] <jezek2> CLT|Stiotic_: anyway he seems to have the required libs in the git repository[15:37:25] <jezek2> so maybe you setuped it bad in some way? :)[15:37:38] <lwjglbot> lwjglforum: Re: My text renderer is coloring my screen black <http://lwjgl.org/forum/index.php/topic,5263.msg28080.html#msg28080>[15:47:21] *** ksclarke has joined #lwjgl[15:51:52] *** Hanack1 has joined #lwjgl[15:52:50] *** Hanack has quit IRC[15:53:12] *** mr_monty has joined #lwjgl[15:53:15] <mr_monty> sup[15:54:13] <nbf> mmm using xml for meshes in a game engine haha[15:54:35] <nbf> oh it's a tut[16:01:28] *** CLT|Stiotic_ has quit IRC[16:01:29] *** Jeanne-Kamikaze has quit IRC[16:01:29] *** Hanack1 has quit IRC[16:01:29] *** Irrelium has quit IRC[16:01:29] *** darkfrog has quit IRC[16:01:30] *** mononofu has quit IRC[16:01:32] *** Mazon has quit IRC[16:01:32] *** Jonas__ has quit IRC[16:01:32] *** ShaRose has quit IRC[16:01:33] *** MatthiasM2 has quit IRC[16:01:33] *** Nitram___ has quit IRC[16:01:33] *** natte has quit IRC[16:01:33] *** baedert has quit IRC[16:01:34] *** [Neurotic] has quit IRC[16:01:34] *** Nibato has quit IRC[16:01:34] *** CharlieM75 has quit IRC[16:01:35] *** Dashiva has quit IRC[16:01:35] *** jezek2 has quit IRC[16:01:36] *** Danik has quit IRC[16:01:36] *** ksclarke has quit IRC[16:01:37] *** Sopheria has quit IRC[16:02:22] *** fella5s has quit IRC[16:02:22] *** ra4king has quit IRC[16:02:22] *** delt0r has quit IRC[16:02:23] *** 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joined #lwjgl[16:08:12] *** Danik has joined #lwjgl[16:08:12] *** Guest57919 has joined #lwjgl[16:08:12] *** ivan``_ has joined #lwjgl[16:08:12] *** smiley_ has joined #lwjgl[16:08:12] *** popey has joined #lwjgl[16:08:12] *** balrog has joined #lwjgl[16:08:13] *** ShaRose has joined #lwjgl[16:08:13] *** Nitram___ has joined #lwjgl[16:08:13] *** quadz_ has joined #lwjgl[16:44:44] *** nbf_ has joined #lwjgl[16:44:55] *** nbf has quit IRC[16:44:55] *** nbf_ has quit IRC[16:45:18] *** nbf has joined #lwjgl[16:48:34] <mr_monty> I'm a hustler baby[17:14:29] <jezek2> nbf: penumbra game uses collada as models... it's fun to see these 20-30MB map models ;)[17:15:30] *** ako has joined #lwjgl[17:18:18] *** aho has quit IRC[17:18:26] *** ako is now known as aho[17:20:41] <nbf> collada is a great intermediate format[17:20:49] <nbf> but why parse xml at runtime when you can just copy that shit into vram[17:21:44] *** Epowerj has joined #lwjgl[17:22:39] *** Epowerj has quit IRC[17:28:08] <MatthiasM2> nbf: exactly[17:28:23] *** freeadult has joined #lwjgl[17:32:55] *** freeadult has quit IRC[17:47:46] *** Dessimat0r has quit IRC[18:01:30] *** meoblast001 has joined #lwjgl[18:09:32] *** Norbo11 has joined #lwjgl[18:12:07] *** Gooogy has joined #lwjgl[18:13:27] *** DrShoggoth has joined #lwjgl[18:17:16] *** Dessimat0r has joined #lwjgl[18:20:43] <nbf> da faq[18:20:44] <nbf> lol[18:25:45] <MatthiasM2> nbf: Google is just angry that Amazon was faster :)[18:36:28] <nbf> haha yep[18:45:12] <CLT|Stiotic_> Back i am![18:52:17] *** balrog has quit IRC[18:52:42] <CLT|Stiotic_> jezek2, I set it up like said on the readme file but the error still exists -.-[18:55:15] <CLT|Stiotic_> oooh nevermind :D[19:01:06] *** balrog has joined #lwjgl[19:05:46] <CLT|Stiotic_> how bad is java for 3d games?(rather small simple maps, not to many effects)[19:05:56] <CLT|Stiotic_> with java i mean lwjgl[19:07:41] <nbf> java is pretty fast, it can get into the same performance realms as AOT compiled native code[19:07:55] <nbf> it's much easier to debug and has a huge set of libraries and support[19:08:24] <nbf> java isn't really as portable as native code though[19:09:19] <CLT|Stiotic_> okay[19:09:46] <CLT|Stiotic_> a friend of mine set java had memory problems so he rewrote his engine in c++[19:10:09] <nbf> it doesn't have "memory problems" but it uses a lot of memory[19:10:58] *** ako has joined #lwjgl[19:12:17] <nbf> whenever I see eric schmidt I think of this guy: http://indianajones.wikia.com/wiki/Arnold_Ernst_Toht[19:13:07] *** ayo has joined #lwjgl[19:13:09] *** ako has quit IRC[19:13:31] *** aho has quit IRC[19:19:08] *** ako has joined #lwjgl[19:21:45] *** ayo has quit IRC[19:23:57] *** aho has joined #lwjgl[19:25:45] *** MatthiasM has joined #lwjgl[19:27:27] *** ako has quit IRC[19:36:34] <CLT|Stiotic_> Lol nbf, totally :D[19:50:32] <mr_monty> the schmidt is the pot calling the kettle black[19:50:53] <mr_monty> I think they'd make great targets if they become too intrusive[19:51:04] <mr_monty> rifle with subsonic rounds you could pick those things off all day :P[19:51:28] <mr_monty> think of it as high tech skeet shooting :P[19:52:10] <MatthiasM> with loot![19:52:32] <mr_monty> XD[19:52:32] <ra4king> teehee[19:52:43] <ra4king> mr_monty: you like pot mr_monty?[19:52:49] * ra4king hands mr_monty a blunt[19:59:07] <nbf> MatthiasM2: lol[20:00:15] <mr_monty> get a rifle and start shooting - no need to purchase chistmas gifts.[20:00:16] <nbf> it'd be cool to have a security drone of your own though[20:00:34] <ra4king> nbf: oh hell yeah[20:00:36] <nbf> that gets up once every 15 minutes and does a perimeter check of your house[20:00:47] <mr_monty> weaponized of course :P[20:00:47] <nbf> no one is going to break into that house[20:00:49] <mr_monty> taser[20:00:53] <mr_monty> baton rounds[20:00:58] <nbf> you have 30 seconds to comply[20:00:59] <ra4king> that's awesome[20:00:59] <mr_monty> "YOU HAVE 10 SECONDS TO COMPLY!"[20:01:02] <nbf> lol[20:01:04] <ra4king> FIRE[20:01:26] <mr_monty> "I AM NOW AUTHORIZED TO USE LETHAL FORCE!"[20:01:37] <mr_monty> shoot a cat to a bloody pulp :P[20:01:42] <ra4king> jeez[20:01:50] <mr_monty> wha[20:02:02] <nbf> after my telepresence robot is done I'm doing a flying drone[20:02:21] *** monty_hall1 has joined #lwjgl[20:02:27] <ra4king> nbf: telepresence?[20:02:46] <nbf> yep[20:03:11] <ra4king> what does that mean? what does that robot do?[20:03:13] <nbf> its a robot I can control from home[20:03:22] <nbf> I can cruise around the office and video chat with people[20:03:34] *** devnewton has joined #lwjgl[20:04:12] *** monty_hall has quit IRC[20:04:13] <ra4king> ooohhhh[20:04:42] * mr_monty slaps ra4king quit making noises[20:07:13] * ra4king kills mr_monty[20:07:25] <ra4king> mr_monty: you have been terminated[20:08:14] <mr_monty> noh[20:11:20] <ra4king> yeh[20:11:28] <ra4king> mr_monty: today is the last day of class for me[20:11:33] <ra4king> finals start tomorrow[20:11:45] <ra4king> I can't believe a semester of college flew by[20:12:53] <mr_monty> i can't believe that this year blew by[20:13:35] <ra4king> yeah what the hell was up with 2013. that shit flew by[20:13:49] <ra4king> Time is going too fast! T_____T[20:13:53] <ra4king> soon I'll be a 50 year old man[20:27:09] <CLT|Stiotic_> For my game, how do i know how big i should make the models?[20:27:26] <CLT|Stiotic_> like height, length, width[20:36:51] *** Norbo11 has quit IRC[20:38:53] *** mr_monty has quit IRC[20:40:38] *** chuckles73 has quit IRC[20:42:50] *** aho has quit IRC[21:09:27] <lwjglbot> lwjglforum: Re: Problem with texture edges <http://lwjgl.org/forum/index.php/topic,5264.msg28082.html#msg28082> || Problem with texture edges <http://lwjgl.org/forum/index.php/topic,5264.msg28081.html#msg28081>[21:17:58] <nbf> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ydTFISfwpRo :)[21:22:34] *** CLT|Stiotic has joined #lwjgl[21:25:39] *** CLT|Stiotic_ has quit IRC[21:41:22] *** ZeuPiark has joined #lwjgl[21:56:55] *** ZeuPiark has quit IRC[22:03:06] <CLT|Stiotic> Good night everyone[22:11:05] *** CLT|Stiotic has quit IRC[22:16:46] *** mr_monty has joined #lwjgl[22:17:20] <mr_monty> dumb question here[22:18:18] <mr_monty> void method(Object object) { wr = new WeakReference(object); .... blah ...; assert wr.get() != null; }[22:18:39] <mr_monty> when will the assert fail[22:19:28] <MatthiasM> assuming you don't overwrite object then it is unlikely but not impossible that is goes away[22:19:44] <mr_monty> from my pov, never. object arg has a strong ref[22:19:51] <MatthiasM> but as long as you allow attaching a debugger it can't go away[22:19:53] <mr_monty> let's just say method(final Object ojblect)[22:20:19] <mr_monty> hmmm[22:20:25] <MatthiasM> when you disallow attaching a debugger and object is not used after creating the ref it can be optimized away[22:20:31] <mr_monty> this is very pesky[22:20:43] <MatthiasM> but I haven't seen any VM which does such aggressive optimizations[22:21:13] <mr_monty> you set a weak reference, you can't unset it unless you explicity .clear() it - which I don't[22:21:24] <mr_monty> but wr.get() still give's me a null[22:21:37] <mr_monty> this is a pita :P[22:21:57] <nbf> http://cnsnews.com/mrctv-blog/matt-vespa/knockout-game-goes-terribly-right-woman-wails-her-attacker[22:21:59] <MatthiasM> well - weak references can be cleared by a GC[22:22:00] <nbf> lol[22:22:14] <nbf> it's awesome how the dude comes flying off the top rope and busts him in the face lol[22:22:26] <nbf> sorry to interrupt relevant code talk[22:22:27] <nbf> :)[22:22:28] <MatthiasM> even if it doesn't allow to GC the referenced object[22:24:12] <mr_monty> that's okay, I interupt stuff all the time :P[22:32:10] *** Sopheria has quit IRC[22:37:14] *** ruben01 has joined #lwjgl[22:46:50] <jezek2> mr_monty: that's intersting observation, local variables are being optimized out so if you haven't used it after that line, it's totally possible[22:47:14] <jezek2> mr_monty: the final keyword on local vars / parameter have no effect in runtime, it's used only by javac[22:47:32] <mr_monty> I was only demonstrating that I never change the arg val[22:47:39] <jezek2> ah ok[22:47:56] <mr_monty> I guess I was under the impression that object is a strong ref to the passed argument[22:48:04] <jezek2> this can also bit you in the ass when interacting with native code[22:48:18] <jezek2> so best is not to do any cleverness :)[22:48:44] <mr_monty> and because of that the weakreference can't be cleared.[22:48:45] <mr_monty> but somehow it is[22:48:47] <mr_monty> I need to keep digging[22:49:25] <jezek2> hmm yeah it should be held by the caller[22:50:00] <jezek2> but maybe if it just creates the object and passes it directly, then it might just "transfer the ownership"[22:50:19] <jezek2> you can try putting it into a static field[22:50:23] <jezek2> before call[22:50:39] <jezek2> (or within in)[22:50:56] <jezek2> also is that assert just for demonstration, or is it in actual code?[22:51:38] <mr_monty> void method(Object object) { wr = new WeakReference(object); assert wr.get() != null; // this passes.... blah ...; assert wr.get() != null; // this sometimes fails }[22:51:58] <mr_monty> I've thrown in the assert because I'm getting npe's[22:52:13] <jezek2> well you can't really rely on this kind of code[22:52:18] <jezek2> how do you call it?[22:52:24] <jezek2> method(new Object()); ?[22:53:45] <mr_monty> yes[22:53:52] <jezek2> then yeah it's totally logical[22:54:10] <jezek2> it's created, passed entirelly as params, meaning it's not present on caller's stack when GC kicks in[22:54:16] <jezek2> so the sole reference is just in the param[22:54:31] <mr_monty> that's not strong then?[22:54:35] <jezek2> and since you use that only in the weak reference assignment it's not hold after that[22:54:54] <jezek2> so after that weakreference line it's solely stored in it[22:55:04] <jezek2> it is strong[22:55:26] <jezek2> but there is no guarantee that all the local params are held until the end of the method[22:55:31] <jezek2> it would be bad in case of loops etc.[22:56:10] <jezek2> so it's held basically just from the first to the last usage[22:56:16] <jezek2> but there can be also reordered code by the compiler/jit[22:56:28] <jezek2> and even without this implementation detail[22:56:34] <jezek2> it's not great design[22:56:45] <jezek2> why not just use object directly in that method?[22:56:52] <mr_monty> okay, so how do I hold on to the reference?[22:56:53] <jezek2> what do you want to achieve with that weakreference?[22:57:11] <mr_monty> it's a node in a mdd[22:57:24] <mr_monty> when I intersect two graphs it can generate a lot of nodes.[22:57:38] <mr_monty> I only need to keep nodes of the final graph which is a dag.[22:58:03] <jezek2> well you clearly need that reference to be active until the last we.get()[22:58:17] <jezek2> so just remove the weak reference and use obj directly[22:58:33] <jezek2> after the last use it would be garbage so no worry about it[22:58:37] *** ZeuPiark has joined #lwjgl[22:59:01] <jezek2> don't see a way how you can save memory in this scenario[22:59:40] *** mr_monty_ has joined #lwjgl[23:00:30] <jezek2> mr_monty_: should I repaste my answer? :)[23:00:49] <mr_monty_> yeah[23:00:50] <mr_monty_> I got dropped[23:00:58] <jezek2> <jezek2> well you clearly need that reference to be active until the last we.get()[23:01:01] <jezek2> <jezek2> so just remove the weak reference and use obj directly[23:01:05] <jezek2> <jezek2> after the last use it would be garbage so no worry about it[23:01:07] <jezek2> <jezek2> don't see a way how you can save memory in this scenario[23:01:53] *** mr_monty has quit IRC[23:02:44] <jezek2> or maybe you're concerned about high rate of object generation? then you can use object pool and reuse the instances[23:02:49] <jezek2> but it's really not needed with hotspot[23:02:49] <mr_monty_> there's actually a bit more going on.[23:03:13] <jezek2> short-term garbage is handled very well[23:03:19] <mr_monty_> this is strictly for memory - basically the weak references are hash entries[23:04:25] <jezek2> yeah doesn't make difference... but what about (if it makes sense) to remove the key from the hashmap once used?[23:05:15] <MatthiasM> mr_monty_: the point is that you can't depend on any reference object to retain a reference[23:05:54] <mr_monty_> http://pastebin.com/Mxi5Jr7w[23:06:19] <mr_monty_> I need O(1) removal[23:06:19] <mr_monty_> new entry create a subclass of a weak reference.[23:06:33] <mr_monty_> the key to speed is the hash table and memory management[23:06:48] <mr_monty_> don't play my cards right operators can take 50-60gb of ram[23:06:50] <mr_monty_> not cool[23:07:44] <mr_monty_> very compute intensive ops[23:08:22] <mr_monty_> that's why if I can reclaim unused hash keys *while* I'm going the operation that would make a huge difference[23:08:25] <mr_monty_> s/going/doing[23:10:47] *** mr_monty has joined #lwjgl[23:11:35] <mr_monty> so it would seem to me that when addElement is called, "key"'s value is strongly bound.[23:11:37] <jezek2> how do you determine unused hash keys? you keep references to all of them that are currently active in other parts of program?[23:12:43] *** mr_monty_ has quit IRC[23:12:59] *** ZeuPiark has quit IRC[23:13:01] <jezek2> does it work as some cache?[23:13:15] <mr_monty> very similar to a cache[23:13:17] <jezek2> like, makes it sense to just clean up everything not used right before the operation?[23:13:25] <mr_monty> the operation trys to reuse as much of the graph as possible[23:13:26] <jezek2> *does it make sense[23:14:03] <mr_monty> that works on easy cases[23:14:41] <jezek2> so... that pruning is good, but it would prematurely remove data that could be used still from the cache?[23:14:56] <jezek2> like it would perform suboptimally if it would be pruned all the time?[23:14:58] <mr_monty> but when I start to interact two graphs I get some serious explosion of nodes (node that are no longer needed)[23:15:31] <mr_monty> the problem is that if I didn't reclaim *while* doing and operation I'll run out of ram[23:15:34] <jezek2> could the standard way of having value as weakreference (and when cleared it would also remove the key from the hashmap) approach make sense to you?[23:15:42] <mr_monty> if the result is small enough, I can use my own "gc" to clean up the unreferernced nodes.[23:16:32] <jezek2> using weak/soft references for caches is never great btw[23:16:32] <mr_monty> think of this way, imagine you have two dag's and two roots[23:16:46] <jezek2> for caches you need to do it in a proper way and have a policy how to reclaim things[23:16:50] <jezek2> eg. time based[23:16:51] <mr_monty> they are somewhat intertwined[23:17:18] <mr_monty> when you do an operation on that graph, a new root is produced in the same graph and may some of the subtrees of the other dag's.[23:17:35] <mr_monty> but...[23:18:02] <jezek2> soft references while targetted at caches are totally bad, don't ever use these... it would work only in case the JVM would be owning all the memory of the computer (or it had the necessary hooks into an OS to do the same)[23:18:15] <jezek2> weak references are very fast to clear up[23:18:27] <ra4king> poop[23:18:28] <jezek2> and you can't really rely on them[23:19:02] <jezek2> so... maybe could you do some high level optimization of that operation? perhaps split it to multiple stages each working with smaller subset?[23:19:12] <mr_monty> clearly my understanding of a weak reference as it pertains to java is pretty primitive.[23:19:25] *** meoblast001 has quit IRC[23:19:47] <mr_monty> from my pov, the mere fact the method argument is bound to the object in question that it's strong and .get() should never be null[23:20:03] <jezek2> basically when you use a weak reference assume that you just set it to null, and only by luck you can get sometimes the reference back[23:20:03] <mr_monty> s/that/is that[23:20:14] <mr_monty> it's starting to feel that way :P[23:20:30] <jezek2> it should be used purely for able to retrieve it while it's still referenced from other places[23:21:07] <jezek2> and that eg. just to make sure there is always single instance if it's already present[23:21:19] <jezek2> but create one if not[23:21:33] <ra4king> beedoop[23:21:47] * mr_monty slaps ra4king[23:21:52] <mr_monty> quiet the adults are talking :P[23:22:02] * ra4king eats mr_monty[23:22:03] <mr_monty> that's rich coming from me[23:22:04] *** Unimatrix325 has quit IRC[23:22:08] <mr_monty> I'm mister off topic[23:22:08] <ra4king> mr_monty: only adult I see is jezek2[23:22:13] <ra4king> and me[23:22:24] <jezek2> mr_monty: well if you're really desperate to emulate that behavior you can store it into a ThreadLocal, and then clear it after the method ends... but it would be just extra useless work and memory waste ;)[23:22:49] <ra4king> I have no clue what you guys are talking about so I will read the logs[23:22:52] * ra4king reads logs[23:32:01] *** mr_monty has quit IRC[23:33:50] *** fella5s has quit IRC[23:34:18] *** fella5s has joined #lwjgl[23:35:40] *** Raven67854 has quit IRC[23:39:15] *** Jeanne-Kamikaze has quit IRC[23:41:49] *** Raven67854 has joined #lwjgl[23:45:14] *** chuckles73 has joined #lwjgl[23:48:00] *** Sopheria has joined #lwjgl[23:49:17] <ra4king> jezek2: I've validated mr_monty's claims[23:50:58] <ra4king> jezek2: I did void method(Object o) { ref = new WeakReference<>(o); println(ref.get()); for(int a = 0; a < 100000; a++) { println(ref.get()) } }[23:51:32] <ra4king> ref.get() became null at the 90,589th line of "ref.get()"[23:58:44] <jezek2> I fail to see your point :)