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[11:32:08] <maxandersen> fbricon: 20.5 hrs? yeah - there is a reason why I don't recommend everyone to use git-svn with jbosstools ;)
[11:32:34] <maxandersen> fbricon: btw. I could have given you a zipped version of such a repo if you asked
[11:32:59] <Diablo-D3> hehhhh
[11:33:05] <Diablo-D3> I notice the as7 wont start bug got fixed
[11:33:29] <maxandersen> Diablo-D3: oh no ? we fixed a bug? crap - I need to tell the team to stop doing that
[11:33:34] <Diablo-D3> lol
[11:33:43] <Diablo-D3> its the first jboss bug that ever stopped me from doing shit
[11:33:46] <Diablo-D3> so ;)
[11:34:07] <maxandersen> Diablo-D3: which bug was it ?
[11:34:39] <Diablo-D3> it'd refuse to start as7
[11:36:07] <maxandersen> Diablo-D3: well there was  a few of those because of various reaons.
[11:36:25] <maxandersen> only one not workaroundable was the addition of ?configuration in some nihgtly builds
[11:37:22] <maxandersen> everything else I know wasn't blocking ?
[11:38:09] <Diablo-D3> there was no workaround afiact
[11:38:28] <maxandersen> Diablo-D3: no idea what bug you mean then.
[11:38:54] <maxandersen> Diablo-D3: i.e. workaround is also not to use nightly builds ;)
[11:39:06] <Diablo-D3> well, I'd add an as7 server, tell it to start, and it'd pop up an error message saying it didnt start
[11:39:16] <Diablo-D3> it was like two weeks ago or so
[11:39:42] <Diablo-D3> and not using nightlies is not an option because there still is not an indigo release.
[11:39:56] <maxandersen> Diablo-D3: huh ? we have had 2 indigo releases
[11:40:11] <maxandersen> Diablo-D3: the dev/milestone updatesite
[11:40:14] <maxandersen> has M2
[11:40:36] <maxandersen> we released that about a week after Indigo went final.
[11:40:45] <Diablo-D3> erm
[11:40:48] <maxandersen> Diablo-D3: btw. workarounds if somethng like this happen are:
[11:41:07] <Diablo-D3> unless Im drugs, the jbosstools website still says 3.2 GA is newest
[11:41:10] <maxandersen> A) start AS7 externally and set the checkbox in the server that it shouldn't do start/stop
[11:41:24] <maxandersen> B) use a different state poller - most likely this one that caused problems
[11:41:35] <Diablo-D3> maxandersen: I was using whatever was default
[11:42:07] <maxandersen> Diablo-D3: yes - which dependent on the bug A or B shoould be the workaround.
[11:42:11] <maxandersen> just saying ;)
[11:42:30] <Diablo-D3> but yeah, I was starting externally
[11:42:43] <Diablo-D3> mostly annoying if I want a one click kill the whole damned thing
[11:43:32] <maxandersen> Diablo-D3: sure - but the M2 release would have given you that AFAIK :)
[11:43:42] <Diablo-D3> the website mentions no m2 release.
[11:43:43] <Diablo-D3> seriously
[11:43:52] <Diablo-D3> and I started using the nightlies the day indigo came out
[11:44:25] <maxandersen> what website are you looking at ?
[11:44:48] <maxandersen> http://www.jboss.org/tools/download.html
[11:44:51] <maxandersen> M2 is front and center
[11:45:02] <maxandersen> Diablo-D3: ^ ?
[11:45:14] <Diablo-D3> I was looking at the front page
[11:45:40] <maxandersen> Diablo-D3: the front page doesn't mention any specific release
[11:45:42] <Diablo-D3> infat, I dont even see a mention of a release at all anymore
[11:45:49] <Diablo-D3> it used to be a news item
[11:46:01] <maxandersen> Diablo-D3: yes - other news since then.
[11:46:11] <maxandersen> there is a downloads/updates button
[11:46:18] <Diablo-D3> lets try this another way
[11:46:22] <Diablo-D3> jbosstools needs users.
[11:46:31] <Diablo-D3> news items of new releases, even milestones, make new users.
[11:46:40] <Diablo-D3> news is good.
[11:46:54] <maxandersen> Diablo-D3: yes? we do that about every 6-8 weeks.
[11:47:20] <maxandersen> Diablo-D3: you want us to keep a sticky announcment on the front page that says "Go to Download/Updates for latest release" ?
[11:47:28] <Diablo-D3> maybe.
[11:47:30] <maxandersen> I assumed downloads/updates button would be sufficient
[11:47:53] <Diablo-D3> Yeah, but you have to assume people out there arent like us, and arent technically minded
[11:48:11] <maxandersen> Diablo-D3: yes - and they go use eclipse marketplace
[11:48:30] <Diablo-D3> I keep forgetting that thing exists >_>
[11:48:44] <Diablo-D3> is there an indigoable release in the app store^W^Wmarketplace yet?
[11:48:49] <maxandersen> Diablo-D3: here we dont have an indigo release (yet) but thats because we didn't want to "force" the milestones yet.
[11:49:04] <maxandersen> Diablo-D3: will probably push M3 out there.
[11:49:38] <Diablo-D3> cool
[11:49:38] <maxandersen> Diablo-D3: in any case - ignoring marketplace - you don't think download/update button is enough to let users know where to download ?
[11:49:44] <Diablo-D3> eh, not really
[11:49:53] <maxandersen> okey ;)
[11:50:01] <Diablo-D3> I mean, compared to what projects usually do, theres usually a fair bit of information
[11:50:28] <maxandersen> Diablo-D3: you mean we have less or we have more information than oother projects?
[11:50:42] <Diablo-D3> less
[11:51:16] <Diablo-D3> I think the bare minimum is current versions of stable and unstable/dev/!nightly
[11:51:21] <maxandersen> what info are you missing ? we had ton of info in the early days but people kept saying it was overwhelming and it got out of date.
[11:51:38] <maxandersen> so duplicate what is on download page ?
[11:51:57] <maxandersen> got a link to a front project page they do whatyou suggeset?
[11:52:00] <Diablo-D3> well, clicking on the version url would send you to the download page for that release
[11:52:49] * Diablo-D3 thinks
[11:52:53] <maxandersen> Diablo-D3: but we don't really want you to use the download - the updatesite is what shuold be used.
[11:52:57] <Diablo-D3> well, I'd point out the seam pages, but those are pretty ugly
[11:53:06] <Diablo-D3> but they're loaded with useful information
[11:53:21] <Diablo-D3> maxandersen: well, then
[11:53:35] <maxandersen> Diablo-D3: you do notice the Downloads menu has all the info...
[11:53:41] <Diablo-D3> the downloads menu is overloaded
[11:53:50] <Diablo-D3> it shouldnt BE a menu, really
[11:53:55] <Diablo-D3> it should go to a page that has all that
[11:54:00] <maxandersen> Diablo-D3: eh? you just asked to get more info ;)
[11:54:24] <maxandersen> Diablo-D3: click on it - it goes to the page with the info.
[11:54:55] <maxandersen> Diablo-D3: download> info for all versions download > <something specific> > goes to specific download/updatesite info on that page
[11:55:42] <Diablo-D3> maxandersen: no, Im saying
[11:55:49] <Diablo-D3> people dont expect a download menu to be a menu at all
[11:56:06] <Diablo-D3> people expect it to be on the website nav, you click it, and it goes to a page that further details things
[11:56:23] <maxandersen> Diablo-D3: but it does that - in both the menu and the button.
[11:56:32] <maxandersen> Diablo-D3: its only if you hover it doesnt.
[11:56:58] <Diablo-D3> yeah but people dont EXPECT it
[11:57:05] <maxandersen> Diablo-D3: Downloads menu exactly the same link as Download / Updates button.
[11:57:13] <Diablo-D3> surprise is bad
[11:57:33] <maxandersen> Diablo-D3: you mean a menu is bad to have there?
[11:57:42] <Diablo-D3> to ye average user? probably.
[11:57:47] <maxandersen> Diablo-D3: but you just asked for specific links.
[11:58:08] <maxandersen> Diablo-D3: and the biggest button/link on the page is "Downloads & Updates"
[11:58:15] <maxandersen> which has no menu ;)
[11:58:15] <Diablo-D3> maxandersen: I didnt ask
[11:58:24] <Diablo-D3> remember, I run nightlies
[11:58:26] <Diablo-D3> Im already doomed
[11:58:29] <maxandersen> Diablo-D3: :)
[11:58:45] <Diablo-D3> Im just saying, the less thinking new users have to do to get it installed, the better
[11:59:31] <maxandersen> Diablo-D3: yes - which is why I don't put information on the front page that risks going too much out of date too quickly and just have One Big fat button to get you to the downloads page.
[11:59:52] <Diablo-D3> Im surprised the jboss website doesnt automate such tasks
[12:00:05] <maxandersen> Diablo-D3: it is - thats what the root menubar does.
[12:00:18] <Diablo-D3> yeah, but the front page couldnt go out of date if it was automated too
[12:00:30] <maxandersen> but yes it could be even more automated but every project seem to want it differently?i..e seamfwk is an example ;)
[12:00:48] <Diablo-D3> yeah, thats another problem
[12:00:53] <maxandersen> Diablo-D3: sure - but what should it show ?.i..e for us there is both downnlaods and updatesites..
[12:00:54] <Diablo-D3> jboss is trying to look corporatey
[12:00:58] <maxandersen> for other projects different.
[12:01:10] <Diablo-D3> all the projects should be under the same general design
[12:01:30] <maxandersen> Diablo-D3: most are.
[12:01:35] <Diablo-D3> well, once its in the marketplace, downloads probably should go away
[12:01:41] <maxandersen> Diablo-D3: only those who dont like corporatly aren't )
[12:01:48] <Diablo-D3> heh, well, look at the as7 website
[12:01:51] <Diablo-D3> thats well done
[12:02:05] <Diablo-D3> all user visible jboss projects should strive to be that
[12:02:10] <maxandersen> Diablo-D3: no - because some (many) users cant use updatesites because of firewall restrictions.
[12:02:27] <Diablo-D3> well, maybe not go away, but be farther in the back
[12:03:04] <maxandersen> Diablo-D3: ?and isnt that exactly what we have on jboss.org/tools ? :)
[12:03:23] <Diablo-D3> you have no marketplace download yet
[12:03:25] <Diablo-D3> ergo, no
[12:03:26] <maxandersen> Diablo-D3: btw. AS7 page took *alot* of time to create?.
[12:03:34] <maxandersen> Diablo-D3: I do - for the *stable* stuff
[12:03:46] <Diablo-D3> not for indigo
[12:03:55] <maxandersen> Diablo-D3: AS7 and other projets have the advantage of just requring java.
[12:04:06] <Diablo-D3> I cant take a fresh indigo install, go right to the marketplace, and tell it to download jboss tools
[12:04:16] <maxandersen> Diablo-D3: yes - but you are talking about "normal users" they want stable over milestone/bleeding edge wont they?
[12:04:29] <Diablo-D3> yes
[12:04:31] <maxandersen> Diablo-D3: yes - I know and M3 will solve that.
[12:04:37] <Diablo-D3> but like
[12:04:44] <Diablo-D3> look at, say, iphone app store sales
[12:04:59] <Diablo-D3> theres large studies about how people see apps available, have never been to their websites, have never heard of them
[12:05:06] <Diablo-D3> and went "hey, that looks neat"
[12:05:16] <Diablo-D3> and downloaded it and became a frequent user
[12:05:29] <maxandersen> Diablo-D3: just looked at as7 site - same stuff as we got?except Twitter feed and a bigger download  button ;)
[12:05:40] <Diablo-D3> I dunno, I really like the as7 website honestly
[12:06:03] <Diablo-D3> it makes those idiots at oracle look like they're stuck in the early 90s
[12:06:18] <maxandersen> Diablo-D3: we *are* on the marketplace - but we can't also be pushing bleeding edge that we know "basic user" will have issues with.
[12:06:48] <maxandersen> Diablo-D3: sure - the *styling* is great (that was made recently by .org team). but the content is basically built after what we have on jboss.org/tools if you look ;)
[12:07:19] * Diablo-D3 shrugs
[12:07:20] <maxandersen> I put some images on our site instead that shuffles...
[12:07:20] <Diablo-D3> I dunno
[12:07:28] <Diablo-D3> it just seems... missing something
[12:07:43] <maxandersen> since raw text seems not being a good way to explain why an IDE should be used.
[12:08:04] <Diablo-D3> the anigif doesnt do it for me
[12:08:21] <Diablo-D3> it doesnt tell me WHY I should use this stuff
[12:08:21] <maxandersen> you want text blobs as on as7 instead ?
[12:08:29] <Diablo-D3> I mean, I know why, but I already use the shit
[12:08:58] <Diablo-D3> it doesnt sell it to the user, I guess.
[12:09:47] <maxandersen> Diablo-D3: okey - so what would sell it to you ? (would love to hear)
[12:09:57] <Diablo-D3> Im a bad example
[12:10:21] <Diablo-D3> I came in backwards, I already use all the stuff, jboss tools just makes eclipse make it easier for me to do the stuff Im already doing
[12:10:38] <Diablo-D3> average users would probably find this as a gateway to other jboss projects
[12:10:45] <Diablo-D3> jbosstools: the only legal gateway dru
[12:10:46] <Diablo-D3> *drug
[12:10:56] <maxandersen> ;)
[12:11:09] <maxandersen> btw. which of the as7 pages are you referring to ? http://www.jboss.org/jbossas or http://www.jboss.org/as7 ?
[12:11:41] <Diablo-D3> huh
[12:11:55] <Diablo-D3> I was referring to /jbossas
[12:11:58] <Diablo-D3> but /as7 is good too
[12:12:17] <Diablo-D3> infact as7 REALLY drives that sales pitch
[12:13:04] <Diablo-D3> infact, Im wondering why jboss just doesnt switch to project spotlight type frontpage semi-splashes
[12:13:17] <maxandersen> Diablo-D3: come again ?
[12:13:20] <Diablo-D3> and shove a short version of that (or a click me teaser styled the same) on the front page
[12:13:24] <Diablo-D3> maxandersen: alright like
[12:13:25] <maxandersen> spotlight type frontpage semisplash?
[12:13:38] <Diablo-D3> you ever see how itunes markets new movies and music on their front page?
[12:13:41] <Diablo-D3> or steam with new games?
[12:14:06] <Diablo-D3> they give a large part of the visual above the fold to sell a new major something
[12:14:20] <maxandersen> yes - http://www.jboss.org/ does the same?..showed AS7 full screen page the first couple of days/weeks.
[12:15:10] <maxandersen> I tried to do the same with the anigif on jboss.org/tools but yeah - required someone to maintain/update it actively so toned it down.
[12:15:29] <Diablo-D3> ahh, I didnt see it
[12:15:36] <Diablo-D3> why stop doing it though?
[12:15:41] <Diablo-D3> as7 is going to be the next big thing for months
[12:15:53] <maxandersen> Diablo-D3: its there now in the top 4 image thing.
[12:16:01] <Diablo-D3> yeeaaahhh but that ... I dunno
[12:16:03] <maxandersen> Diablo-D3: and because it got rather annoying over time ;)
[12:16:16] <Diablo-D3> it looks like someone chopped off what was above the fold, but left the rest of the concent
[12:16:29] <maxandersen> ?
[12:16:45] <Diablo-D3> "above the fold" is a term in publishing that originated with newspapers
[12:16:52] <Diablo-D3> its what people see first when picking it up
[12:17:07] <Diablo-D3> it transitioned to website design as to be the first screenful of stuff on an average sized monitor
[12:18:18] <Diablo-D3> so, a newspaper might be "president bush rapes babies" with a big front page image, huge headline text, and take up all the columns
[12:18:46] <Diablo-D3> a website would do the same, "as7 cures cancer", and bust across all the columns pushing the "real" content below the fold
[12:19:12] <Diablo-D3> whats on jboss.org atm are really good front page left/right columns
[12:19:21] <Diablo-D3> but they're just... there
[12:19:31] <Diablo-D3> nothing to anchor them to the header layout
[12:19:47] <maxandersen> you want them "bigger" ?
[12:19:57] <Diablo-D3> no, they're the right size
[12:20:13] <Diablo-D3> actually let me rephrase
[12:20:20] <Diablo-D3> those four blocks COULD be bigger
[12:20:39] <Diablo-D3> merge them into a timed html5 fade slide show that takes up both columns and is big
[12:20:57] <Diablo-D3> and just rotate the major projects in and out as they do major reeleases
[12:21:15] <Diablo-D3> or other applicable major stuff
[12:21:53] <maxandersen> so similar to what i do on jboss.org/tools for the screenshots but just upfront and center?
[12:21:58] <Diablo-D3> yeah
[12:22:18] <Diablo-D3> I'd show an example, but I cant seem to find any
[12:22:20] <Diablo-D3> its a popular technique
[12:22:44] <maxandersen> yeah I know it - was what I wanted for jboss.org/tools with the screenshot stuff...
[12:22:49] <maxandersen> but takes time
[12:23:15] <Diablo-D3> actually you know what
[12:23:19] <Diablo-D3> steam's front page almost does it
[12:23:23] <Diablo-D3> but they've double downed on it
[12:23:28] <maxandersen> steam ?
[12:23:34] <Diablo-D3> http://store.steampowered.com/
[12:23:38] <Diablo-D3> valve's steam
[12:23:48] <maxandersen> but now that the .org design team did the as7 one i could steal that layout and push stuff ;)
[12:24:24] <Diablo-D3> see the big center graphic above the fold?
[12:24:28] <maxandersen> ah yeah - bu also benefits from having a visual part built in to them ;)
[12:24:30] <maxandersen> yes
[12:24:48] <Diablo-D3> just combine it with the .... huh
[12:24:53] <Diablo-D3> are they actually using html5 for that?
[12:25:03] <maxandersen> probably just jquery
[12:25:07] <Diablo-D3> well, yeah, or js
[12:25:10] <Diablo-D3> I mean, its not flash
[12:25:19] <Diablo-D3> everyone always uses goddamned flash
[12:25:20] <Diablo-D3> and I hate it
[12:25:27] <Diablo-D3> you dont put flash on your damned front page
[12:25:31] <Diablo-D3> ever
[12:26:15] <Diablo-D3> maxandersen: so, yeah, I dunno
[12:26:26] <Diablo-D3> I just want jboss to be more... I dunno, out there
[12:26:37] <Diablo-D3> more professional looking
[12:27:07] <maxandersen> Diablo-D3: ill give you access to jboss.org/tools if you want to help :)
[12:27:14] <Diablo-D3> naw
[12:27:19] <Diablo-D3> I have my own stuff to do sadly
[12:27:22] <maxandersen> btw. jboss.com "tries"
[12:28:09] <Diablo-D3> woah, didnt know there was a .com
[12:28:16] <Diablo-D3> ooh
[12:28:26] <Diablo-D3> clever trick with the splash rotation
[12:28:33] <Diablo-D3> the "button" themes with the panel
[12:29:14] <maxandersen> lol - jboss.org frontpage first banner tries to outline there is .org and .com ..I guess that didn't hit home for you
[12:30:20] <Diablo-D3> nope, wasnt paying attention to that
[12:30:33] <Diablo-D3> Im not a commercial customer so I automatically tune that out
[12:32:52] <maxandersen> ;)
[12:32:58] <maxandersen> time for me to make pancakes
[12:33:04] * maxandersen max_pancakes
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