November 29, 2010 
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November 29, 2010 [00:11:28] *** PatrickS has joined #illumos[00:14:44] *** psychicist has quit IRC[00:18:10] *** trbs has quit IRC[00:30:27] *** greenman31 has quit IRC[00:58:34] *** trochej_ has quit IRC[00:58:42] *** trochej has joined #illumos[01:04:24] *** gber has quit IRC[01:24:20] *** ivo_ has joined #illumos[01:38:47] *** ganbold has joined #illumos[01:47:13] *** edp_work1 has quit IRC[01:50:15] *** CVLTCMK0 has quit IRC[01:55:18] *** ChrisL__ has quit IRC[02:00:50] *** edp_work has joined #illumos[02:01:11] *** CVLTCMK0 has joined #illumos[02:03:57] *** marsell has joined #illumos[02:04:18] *** edude03 has quit IRC[02:05:10] *** edude03 has joined #illumos[02:05:39] *** freetown2 has joined #illumos[02:06:31] *** edp_work has quit IRC[02:20:40] *** CVLTCMK0 has quit IRC[02:25:56] *** CVLTCMK0 has joined #illumos[02:42:10] *** edp_work has joined #illumos[02:58:28] *** ivo_ has quit IRC[03:12:52] *** davenz has joined #illumos[03:29:52] *** movement has quit IRC[03:32:36] *** Jenkens has quit IRC[03:40:17] *** xmikus011 has quit IRC[03:43:26] *** movement has joined #illumos[03:43:47] *** DaQatz has quit IRC[03:44:18] *** gdamore1 is now known as gdamore[03:46:12] *** marsell_ has joined #illumos[03:47:45] *** marsell has quit IRC[03:47:45] *** marsell_ is now known as marsell[03:47:58] *** DaQatz has joined #illumos[03:49:42] *** roadtrippinyo has quit IRC[03:52:30] *** gebi has quit IRC[03:55:29] *** koan has quit IRC[03:56:20] *** jamesd2 has quit IRC[03:57:05] *** roadtrippinyo has joined #illumos[04:02:21] *** koan has joined #illumos[04:27:54] *** kart_ has joined #illumos[04:33:18] *** POloser has joined #illumos[04:47:48] <jbk> evening[04:54:59] <Triskelios> 'lo[04:55:12] <jbk> sup?[04:57:42] <Triskelios> tired. have time for code reviews?[04:58:21] <jbk> not right now[04:58:28] <jbk> this in-flight wireless still has some bugs :)[04:58:34] <jbk> ssh works, but not http :P[04:59:39] <Triskelios> that's what ssh -D is for :P where are you off to?[05:03:48] <jbk> back to my place (and warmer weather) after the holiday[05:03:54] <jbk> aka houston[05:04:35] <Triskelios> haha okay[05:06:17] <jbk> it was 25 deg last night :)[05:06:28] <jbk> and i met up with some friends who decided they wanted to go geocaching :)[05:07:08] <jbk> after a while, your facial muscles stiffen up enough that making any sort of facial expression feels like your moving in slow motion :)[05:08:28] <jbk> however, i took tomorrow off[05:08:38] <jbk> or if you're gonna be around late, i can take a look when i get home[05:10:02] <Triskelios> no worries, I'll try tomorrow[05:11:04] <jbk> probably got another 75 mins before we land[05:11:20] <jbk> too bad ON contains files that only differ by case[05:11:30] <jbk> so i can't put an hg repo on my laptop (mbp)[05:11:47] <jbk> i'd do some ike work :P[05:36:25] *** regin_ is now known as regin[05:41:52] *** kart_ has quit IRC[05:55:23] *** axscode has joined #illumos[05:57:12] <madwizard> Leslie Nielsen died?[05:57:13] <madwizard> HM[05:57:35] <jbk> someone mentioned that[05:58:06] *** kart_ has joined #illumos[06:03:00] *** Hedonista has quit IRC[06:16:36] *** davenz has quit IRC[06:35:14] <cuguardo> how was your black friday? %)~[07:00:58] *** POloser has left #illumos[07:03:53] *** Zauberpony has joined #illumos[07:05:49] *** Zauberpo1y has quit IRC[07:11:02] *** Edgeman has quit IRC[07:15:37] *** Edgeman has joined #illumos[07:24:38] *** joffe has quit IRC[07:28:11] *** POloser has joined #illumos[07:33:40] *** hajma_ has quit IRC[07:34:33] *** RoyK has quit IRC[07:36:28] *** tomww has quit IRC[07:43:29] *** McBofh has quit IRC[07:59:30] *** totzilla has joined #illumos[08:02:57] *** axscode has quit IRC[08:07:08] *** joffe has joined #illumos[08:07:35] *** DerSaidin has quit IRC[08:08:14] *** DerSaidin has joined #illumos[08:08:14] *** DerSaidin has joined #illumos[08:13:47] *** axscode has joined #illumos[08:20:23] *** gebi has joined #illumos[08:20:23] *** gebi has joined #illumos[08:22:47] *** axscode has quit IRC[08:24:33] *** m2acis has joined #illumos[08:31:26] *** e-jones has joined #illumos[08:39:15] *** Tenzer|off has quit IRC[08:43:16] *** liqu has quit IRC[08:43:53] *** samuelyounge has quit IRC[08:46:16] *** liqu has joined #illumos[08:47:58] *** totzilla has quit IRC[08:48:47] *** hy is now known as h-[08:50:37] *** hsp has joined #illumos[08:52:45] *** samuelyounge has joined #illumos[08:55:43] *** h- is now known as hy[09:03:11] <His_Holiness> moin[09:05:30] *** CVLTCMK0 has quit IRC[09:07:31] *** CVLTCMK0 has joined #illumos[09:12:02] *** m2acis has quit IRC[09:13:40] *** RoyK has joined #illumos[09:14:38] *** m2acis has joined #illumos[09:19:56] *** His_Holiness is now known as nettezzaumana[09:25:22] *** |AbsyntH| has joined #illumos[09:27:12] *** jamesd2 has joined #illumos[09:32:00] <madwizard> Coffee[09:32:28] *** lblume has joined #illumos[09:33:06] <lblume> 'morning[09:33:28] *** hnhn has joined #illumos[09:37:47] *** merzo has 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joined #illumos[14:31:31] *** nettezzaumana is now known as HisHoliness[14:41:09] *** Gervystar has joined #illumos[14:53:07] *** RoyK has joined #illumos[14:58:06] *** RoyK has quit IRC[15:06:39] *** mjmac has quit IRC[15:09:11] *** mjmac has joined #illumos[15:12:57] *** TBCOOL has quit IRC[15:16:46] *** hajma has quit IRC[15:20:36] *** edude03 has quit IRC[15:22:22] *** hajma has joined #illumos[15:23:28] *** _ams_ has joined #illumos[15:24:29] *** TBCOOL has joined #illumos[15:32:45] *** samuelyounge has quit IRC[15:35:36] *** gebi has quit IRC[15:35:53] *** gebi has joined #illumos[15:35:59] *** gebi has joined #illumos[15:40:35] *** pizdec has joined #illumos[15:42:46] *** mikw has quit IRC[15:56:09] *** _ams_ has quit IRC[15:58:29] *** spked has joined #illumos[15:58:59] *** merzo_ has joined #illumos[16:01:39] *** xapiens has joined #illumos[16:02:00] *** xmikus01 has quit IRC[16:08:17] *** _ams_ has joined #illumos[16:18:37] *** RoyK has joined #illumos[16:19:49] *** Nitial has quit IRC[16:23:15] *** edude03 has joined #illumos[16:26:23] *** Nitial has joined #illumos[16:31:03] *** postwait has joined #illumos[16:36:56] *** anilg has joined #illumos[16:37:41] *** vitaliy_gusev has joined #illumos[16:41:19] *** edude03 has quit IRC[16:42:15] *** McBofh has quit IRC[16:52:05] *** hnhn has quit IRC[16:59:17] *** Bdragon has joined #illumos[16:59:26] *** alhazred has joined #illumos[17:01:56] *** gwr has joined #illumos[17:03:00] <Gervystar> hi, i'm having the same issue as this http://mail.opensolaris.org/pipermail/fm-discuss/2009-January/000342.html I've tried to follow the same steps but the system keeps panicking (it is reported to work on http://www.sun.com/bigadmin/hcl/data/systems/details/2109.html). I've tried b134, oi_147 and SX11. Should i file a bug on the illumos tracker or is there anything else i can do to help sorting out the issue?[17:06:01] *** RoyK has quit IRC[17:08:51] *** carlomagno has joined #illumos[17:09:34] *** hajma has quit IRC[17:12:53] *** alhazred_ has joined #illumos[17:13:31] *** alhazred has quit IRC[17:13:32] *** hnhn has joined #illumos[17:23:16] *** merzo_ has quit IRC[17:23:54] *** hajma has joined #illumos[17:30:08] *** ivo_ has joined #illumos[17:31:44] *** e-jones has quit IRC[17:36:29] *** jamesd_laptop has quit IRC[17:36:29] *** andy_js has quit IRC[17:37:45] *** jamesd2 has joined #illumos[17:43:55] *** mikw has joined #illumos[17:50:10] *** |AbsyntH| has quit IRC[17:55:07] *** saablover has quit IRC[18:01:42] *** m2acis has quit IRC[18:11:34] *** stallion has joined #illumos[18:12:52] *** samuelyounge has joined #illumos[18:31:55] *** slpz has quit IRC[18:32:27] *** hnhn has quit IRC[18:32:31] *** edude03 has joined #illumos[18:37:40] *** pizdec has quit IRC[18:38:25] *** spked has quit IRC[18:48:27] *** hajma has quit IRC[18:53:47] <gdamore> I'm *so* close to just giving up on all archivers and kicking them all out of illumos-gate....[18:54:05] <gdamore> I think I want to create list -- "tar-bikeshed at lists dot illumos.org"[18:55:45] <gdamore> Gervystar: please do file a bug.[18:56:18] *** xapiens has quit IRC[18:56:20] <Gervystar> gdamore: done that, thanks. It's #431[18:56:28] <gdamore> thanks[18:56:33] *** edude03_ has joined #illumos[18:57:15] <Gervystar> seems like i'm quite unlucky with hardware and OI lately :)[18:58:37] *** edude03 has quit IRC[18:58:38] *** edude03_ is now known as edude03[19:01:19] *** _ams_ has quit IRC[19:03:10] *** movement has quit IRC[19:05:47] *** McBofh has joined #illumos[19:07:48] <alanc> gdamore: *tar certainly seem like things that fit better into a SFW/Userland gate than ON - it's not like they tend to use a ton of private interfaces that change incompatibly[19:08:59] <gdamore> right[19:09:04] <alanc> (but then, I also always advocated that for ksh93, but that would have interfered with the "replace usr/src/cmd with ksh93" plans unless you moved all those commands out too, which wasn't planned at that time)[19:09:57] *** vitaliy_gusev has quit IRC[19:12:03] *** alhazred has joined #illumos[19:12:10] *** alhazred_ has quit IRC[19:12:36] * lblume apologizes.[19:13:04] *** edude03 has quit IRC[19:13:48] *** anilg has quit IRC[19:33:10] *** libkeiser has quit IRC[19:34:39] *** libkeiser has joined #illumos[19:35:29] *** Gervystar has quit IRC[19:43:24] *** xapiens has joined #illumos[19:44:59] <randw> it's not a bad idea to move *tar out into separate pkgs. and maybe provide a meta pkg that install all of them so no one is preferred.[19:45:18] *** movement has joined #illumos[19:45:33] *** RoyK has joined #illumos[19:47:44] *** RoyK has quit IRC[19:48:02] <gber> gdamore: have you evaluated http://code.google.com/p/libarchive/ ?[19:48:26] <gber> gdamore: (that is what FreeBSD uses for its archiving needs)[19:48:34] *** jamesd2 has quit IRC[19:48:36] *** RoyK has joined #illumos[19:49:08] <gdamore> argh. not *another* option[19:49:24] <jbk> gber: the problem is, no matter what is chosen, someone will object and cause a lot of collateral damage (in terms of stalling development on other things)[19:51:26] <gber> well if you go by that rationale you can rip the whole onnv apart, there will always be a reason for contention in pretty much any area[19:51:57] <jbk> no, not like that[19:52:03] <jbk> anyway.. off to meet a friend for lunch[19:52:23] <gdamore> star/tar/pax/cpio are the most contentious of all packages *by far*[19:52:58] <gber> here's an implementation nobody has come up with so far[19:55:05] <gber> how about judging according to technical needs[19:55:10] *** _ams_ has joined #illumos[19:55:39] <gdamore> its impossible to judge to technical needs.[19:55:58] <gdamore> if we could just pick a single technical best answer, I would have done so already.[19:56:08] <gdamore> any debate about archivers is *toxic*[19:56:37] * lblume goes to get decontaminated.[19:56:54] <gdamore> I can also pretty much guarantee a third party solution will not support illumos/Sun extended attributes.[19:57:54] *** vitaliy_gusev has joined #illumos[19:58:01] <gber> then status quo is still better than removing such core parts of the system and pass that burden to distributors[19:58:27] <gdamore> No. the status quo is some combination of closed source and contentious bits.[19:58:48] <gber> only pax is closed though, right?[19:58:49] *** gebi has quit IRC[19:58:57] <gdamore> probably about 70-80% of the most toxic debates in the entire opensolaris history have centered around star/tar.[19:59:23] * lblume wonders if the issue is with the tools or the advocates[19:59:37] <gdamore> pax is closed, yes. I think the other bits are open. but people are unhappy with tar and everyone complains and asks why we don't integrate "star" or "gtar"[19:59:47] <gber> if you're doing the work, you're free to ignore/filter mails of certain individuals?[19:59:53] <gdamore> I'm only the most recently failed "sponsor" for Joerg's work.[20:00:17] <gdamore> Its not just *me*. I could be happy by simply filtering /dev/null....[20:00:24] <gdamore> (joerg to .... )[20:00:33] <gber> yes, this came up many times on the os lists...[20:00:43] *** ottom has joined #illumos[20:01:13] <gdamore> it keeps coming up. The latest mail thread is just the most recent example.[20:01:26] <gdamore> It won't die until we finally kill it.[20:02:00] <gdamore> Frankly, I'm tempted to just tell them all to screw off, and make "zip" our default archiver. :-)[20:02:36] <lblume> 7z![20:02:41] <randw> there are archiver/gnu-tar and archiver/unrar pkgs currently; why not extend it to the others and provide a default meta package that include them all. that should take (maybe) the pressure out from the discussion.[20:02:45] <gdamore> 7z would be fine. :-)[20:02:59] <gdamore> randw: that's a *distro* problem.[20:03:08] <lblume> Yay for 7z! :-D[20:03:20] <gdamore> I want to yank the *source* for all of the others from the illumos-gate consolidation.[20:03:36] <randw> ok[20:03:49] <gdamore> Then at least Joerg can't claim we're discriminating against him (unfairly or otherwise)[20:04:22] <gber> well then each distro uses another (possibly incompatible) implementation, it doesn't solve but just moves the problem around[20:04:38] <gdamore> We're already at that problem.[20:04:56] <alanc> gnu-tar and star would definitely be less work to maintain in a consolidation that just builds using the upstream build system, instead of trying to force the square pegs into ON's nice round Makefiles (and not even considering cstyle, lint clean, etc.)[20:05:01] <gdamore> The damned idiots behind these archivers can't talk civilly to one another, and rarely to anyone else either.[20:05:21] <alanc> which is a large part of the pain suffered everytime someone tries to put star into ON[20:05:34] <gdamore> Joerg is the rest of the "large" pain.[20:05:59] <gdamore> I could just integrate star myself. But if I do that, I will piss of *both* Joerg, and everyone who hates star.[20:06:25] <gdamore> Because if I integrate star, it will be done as a clean "first class port", not as some half-baked bolt-on.[20:07:04] <gdamore> but that won't make the illumos port of star portable to other systems. 'Cause I'll gut out the support for Plan 9 and OSF/1 and MacOS 9 and ... :-)[20:07:33] *** spked has joined #illumos[20:08:34] <gber> can't you just integrate a pax implementation and leave it at that? I don't see the need to have anything beyond a basic common toolset in ONNV[20:08:54] <gber> gnu-tar is already in SFW readily available on OI and SX[20:09:43] <gdamore> people bitch that /usr/bin/tar isn't star or gtar.[20:09:57] <gdamore> and there isn't a non-contentious version of pax to integrate.[20:10:15] <gber> yes, they have before on OS and if you solve that they will find something else to complain about[20:10:16] <gdamore> ksh93 folks will be unhappy if I integrate anything except their version.[20:10:36] <randw> could it be made into a parallel gate illumos-build or so? unsed only for building (not unlike jds)...[20:10:36] <gdamore> and Joerg will scream bloody hell if I integrate anything != star.[20:10:59] <gdamore> randw: that's what I'm suggesting... I'll eject them all from illumos-gate and let them live somewhere else....[20:11:33] *** dobah has joined #illumos[20:11:38] <gdamore> Of course, if I just ejected *Joerg* about 70% of the pain and suffering associated with archivers would go away.[20:12:09] <gdamore> I think I can sadly admit defeat in trying to find constructive ways in dealing with Joerg.[20:13:21] <alanc> wonder if the people complaining about ON tar have noticed the post-134 updates (most of which were pre-148 so illumos should have them), such as integrated compression support, gnu tar format compatibility, & better handling of absolute paths[20:13:41] <gdamore> dunno... and at some level I don't care.[20:13:50] <gdamore> vanilla tar has *always* worked well for me.[20:13:57] <gber> yes, it has become nicer[20:14:08] <gdamore> except when some idjit sends me GNU tar generated archives....[20:14:10] <alanc> and I guess I forgot about extended attributes when I suggested there was nothing ON-specific about ON tar[20:14:45] <gdamore> I don't know if the ON tar's use of extended attributes relies on non-public APIs.[20:14:52] <gber> that is why I don't see the actual technical problem (besides replacing closed source components)[20:15:41] <gber> if you go by that logic and remove stuff on every bikeshed/emotional debat there wont be much left in ONNV soon[20:17:29] *** alfism has joined #illumos[20:17:31] <lblume> Just to be sure, pax xustar format and tar's E option are the same thing, right?[20:18:59] <gdamore> I don't think so.[20:20:09] <lblume> Oh.[20:20:12] <gdamore> gber: what else has bikeshedded unreasonably? and what of those things are truly intrinsic to the base system?[20:20:57] <gdamore> admittedly, the problem I want to solve here is not necessarily *technical* in nature (although in general having a smaller illumos-gate would only be a good thing)[20:21:24] <gdamore> but getting an open source pax into illumos-gate is not tractable with our current project membership.[20:22:09] *** hnhn has joined #illumos[20:22:20] <gber> gdamore: the "tensions" between you and some ksh proponents? besides I am 100% convinced that other issues will come up sooner or later as they do in any free software community[20:22:57] *** Tenzer|off is now known as Tenzer[20:23:37] <gdamore> the ksh93 tensions are manageable.[20:24:05] <gdamore> in fact, Roland and I have had many constructive conversations. Which is far more than can be said for Joerg and I.[20:24:19] *** marsell has quit IRC[20:24:29] <gdamore> of course someone could argue that I'm the source of the problem. I know Joerg has argued that.[20:24:37] *** xmikus01 has joined #illumos[20:25:30] <gber> gdamore: well from experience on many mailinglists I think the chances are good that it's the other way around ;)[20:26:19] <lblume> For the little worth it is, I would tend to agree...[20:26:51] <gdamore> well, at the end of the day, I would like to think that I've done the work to found this project and do a non-trivial amount of the technical work to make it possible.[20:27:47] <bdha> Joerg needs to shut his face or do some work to justify his mouth flapping.[20:27:51] <bdha> Otherwise he should be ignored.[20:27:56] <gdamore> so I hope that if people think I'm sometimes abrasive, they understand that I'm focused on seeing solutions and forward direction on the project....[20:28:01] <bdha> His mouth should not dictate policy decisions.[20:28:27] <gdamore> It doesn't. But for some reason people he has a fan club.[20:28:30] *** edude03 has joined #illumos[20:28:40] <bdha> No accounting for taste.[20:28:51] <gdamore> I don't know how anyone can stand dealing with cdrecord -- its as "unfriendly" as its author.[20:29:14] <lblume> Oh, I learnt it after sendmail, so it was easy.[20:29:24] <gdamore> heh.[20:29:44] <gdamore> sendmail is another thing that I'd like to see ejected from illumos-gate.... most people elect a better MTA now.[20:29:52] <gdamore> which is *any* MTA except sendmail.[20:30:41] <gber> gdamore: could you at least consider taking a look at whether libarchive or parts of it could be used to replace pax only?[20:31:10] <lblume> No... not sendmail :'([20:31:15] <gdamore> I *could*, but I won't. Because doing so will piss off *both* the ksh93 folks *and* Joerg. And their various followers.[20:31:34] <gdamore> lblume: do you actually prefer sendmail?[20:31:37] <xinkeT> come on, what's wrong with sendmail.[20:31:40] <xinkeT> I still use it[20:31:50] <bdha> Logging, mailq management, configuration.[20:31:51] *** trbs has joined #illumos[20:31:57] <xinkeT> and I stopped hand editing my cf files in '98[20:32:14] <bdha> Performance wise it's adequate for a lot of cases.[20:32:24] <gdamore> Every serious admin I've talked to has long since switched away from sendmail.[20:32:27] <xinkeT> if it isn't broke don't fix it[20:32:34] <bdha> It's broke. Postfix fixed it.[20:32:42] <gdamore> Personally, I don't care. I just don't think we need to carry an MTA in illumos-gate.[20:32:49] <lblume> gdamore: Honestly, I've been using it for too long to realize or not if it's difficult to configure.[20:32:52] <xinkeT> I don't see a need to have it in the gate, no[20:32:56] <bdha> gdamore: I agree.[20:33:07] <bdha> lblume: That's how BIND gets you, too! ;)[20:33:22] <lblume> BIND is difficult to configure?![20:33:27] <gdamore> BIND is needed, or at least the resolver portion.[20:33:38] <bdha> lblume: No, just obnoxious.[20:33:56] <gdamore> BIND isn't bad at all, last I looked. sendmail on the other hand... is truly byzantine.[20:34:03] *** hajma has joined #illumos[20:34:25] <gdamore> I have always wanted to write a cf that swapped i's and e's in the message body of a certain previous manager of mine....[20:35:22] <xinkeT> I think if you're messing with the cf stuff manually then yes, you're insane. But if you're using Nexenta you can use debian packaging and dealing with it is rather easy. If you're compiling from source then yes, it's a problem[20:35:25] <lblume> sendmail suffers most from having been around from too long and carrying a lot of luggage[20:35:56] <xinkeT> if I was starting from scratch I'd probably go with postfix[20:35:58] <gdamore> lblume: yes. it still carries (last I looked) bitnet and uucp support.[20:36:01] <gdamore> crazy crazy....[20:36:23] <bdha> People still use uucp.[20:36:26] <lblume> It's been version 8 for what? 10 years? 20 years?[20:36:29] <xinkeT> sendmail had milters though before postfix did afaik, and those are very useful[20:37:18] <gdamore> bdha: anyone still using uucp is ..... well, living in the past is about the nicest thing I can say.[20:37:24] *** kovert has quit IRC[20:37:39] <bdha> gdamore: I imagine they feel they have very good reasons for doing so. ;-)[20:37:54] <bdha> Anyway, I agree. No need to maintain this stuff in the gate.[20:38:00] <bdha> Although, are there Sun-made changes that might be needed?[20:38:18] <bdha> e.g., some of the work on the OpenSSH port.[20:38:20] <gdamore> probably... I probably suffer from a lack of imagination in thinking such a good reason exists[20:38:24] <bdha> (as an example)[20:38:31] <xinkeT> yeah, I don't understand why userland stuff needs to stay in the gate beyond supporting utils[20:38:35] <lblume> In sendmail? They're suppoed to have pulled them out long time ago.[20:38:48] <gdamore> I'm pretty sure sendmail is fairly vanilla these days.[20:39:32] <lblume> yes, it only has some Sun m4 files, for slightly different defaults.[20:39:55] <lblume> I think it's been standard since S7 or S8.[20:39:59] <bdha> The SMF manifests.[20:40:10] <bdha> But those can be pushed to the distro. shrug.[20:40:41] *** aszeszo has joined #illumos[20:44:43] *** jamesd2 has joined #illumos[20:48:51] *** dajhorn has joined #illumos[20:49:20] *** jamesd2 has quit IRC[20:49:35] <gdamore> so, cpio is used in the build apparently.[20:49:58] <postwait> cpio is the "one true archiver"... of course it is.[20:51:17] <lblume> SunOS 4 interoperability matters![20:52:47] <bdha> Pretty sure gdamore has said it doesn't. ;)[20:52:59] <bdha> I agree with Paul: Declare a model (Linux or BSD) and run with it.[20:53:05] <bdha> So far the model has been Linux kernel.[20:53:57] <bdha> Also, ignore Schilly.[20:53:58] <bdha> :)[20:55:13] *** psychicist has joined #illumos[21:03:54] *** edude03 has quit IRC[21:12:22] *** spanglywires has joined #illumos[21:17:35] *** stallion has quit IRC[21:20:41] <richlowe> cpio is used in all kinds of places.[21:21:49] <lblume> Many things are used in all kinds of places...[21:22:13] <richlowe> Right, but few of them seem to bring little benefit, but also (I assume) cause a massive argument.[21:22:16] *** stallion has joined #illumos[21:22:17] <gdamore> bdha: actually the model is unclear. I was hoping to move more towards BSD....[21:22:52] <gdamore> If we ignore Schily, the problem is vastly easier to solve.[21:23:06] <richlowe> Who'd have thought?[21:23:10] <richlowe> I, for one, am astonished.[21:23:10] <richlowe> etc.[21:25:28] <gdamore> On another topic:[21:25:45] <gdamore> does anyone know if there are consumers for libpyzfs apart from the zfs command itself?[21:25:53] <richlowe> gdamore: tar is used in the build too, by the way. Explicitly to do the closed-bin filtering.[21:26:05] <gdamore> richlowe: good point, I forgot about that.[21:26:15] <richlowe> I don't know about libpyzfs consumers.[21:26:24] <richlowe> the slim_install gate would be the place to look[21:26:38] <gdamore> The only possible consumers I think could exist are in the installer or in IPS.[21:26:39] <richlowe> I was going to use it for something but didn't, I'm struggling to recall why[21:26:49] <gdamore> Would people object to its departure?[21:26:51] <richlowe> IPS should only know of ZFS via beadm, etc.[21:26:57] <richlowe> uh, libbe[21:27:03] <richlowe> Don't know, haven't looked for a whwile[21:27:05] <gdamore> libbe can go too.[21:27:07] <richlowe> I'd assume I wouldn't.[21:27:16] <gdamore> because we have a pure C implementation of beadm now.[21:27:22] <richlowe> pkg uses libbe.[21:27:42] <gdamore> maybe I'm confused, hang on.[21:28:27] <gdamore> ok, so libbe stays. I was thinking of pylibbe..[21:28:33] <richlowe> pkg -> python libbe crud -> libbe[21:29:31] <gdamore> does it call the python be library *directly*, or does it just execute beadm?[21:30:11] <richlowe> directly[21:30:15] <gdamore> shit.[21:31:24] <gdamore> that, and the zfs python lib, are the only things that require us to have Python.h during compile time, I think. (I.e. the only bits that actually link against python itself)[21:32:06] <richlowe> anywho, I'm headed out before it gets any colder.[21:33:01] * gdamore wonders if we can actually achieve a system that doesn't *depend* on python runtime *at runtime*[21:35:01] *** marsell has joined #illumos[21:35:29] <Triskelios> gdamore: does libbe matter to non-pkg(5) distros?[21:35:45] <gdamore> Triskelios: no.[21:36:05] <gdamore> although it turns out pstack might need it libpython, as it can introspect Python stacks.[21:36:43] <gdamore> or so I've been told... my system doesn't seem to show that though[21:38:38] <gdamore> oh, its an mdb module for python support. so that's not needed at run time[21:39:18] <Triskelios> are the headers for building mdb modules public?[21:39:25] <gdamore> I believe so.[21:39:56] <gdamore> if not, they could become so.[21:40:04] <Triskelios> okay[21:41:02] <gdamore> they are public.[21:41:59] <gdamore> the mdb man page describes them, and there is even demo source code in /usr/demo[21:42:37] *** sponix has quit IRC[21:44:37] <gdamore> also, the dependency is upon the Python.h header, not on the library.[21:45:13] <Triskelios> ah[21:46:22] <gdamore> I'm half tempted to just import a local copy of Python.h just for that module :-)[21:47:08] <gdamore> oh, maybe not... it includes a *lot* of other files.[21:56:15] *** andy_js has joined #illumos[21:59:18] <Triskelios> libbe originated in one of the caiman gates (slim_source still has it in history) so it might be reasonable to uproot it and put it somewhere else[22:04:19] <jbk> could make the non-C stack support be modular[22:12:26] *** spanglywires has quit IRC[22:19:10] *** jamesd2 has joined #illumos[22:30:43] *** spanglywires has joined #illumos[22:41:17] <igork> http://pastebin.com/CaJwKbpF[22:41:31] <igork> cd $CODEMGR_WS/usr/src[22:41:39] <igork> dmake setup[22:41:42] <igork> have problem[22:42:10] <igork> maybe have to updates in Makefile[22:42:32] *** davenz has joined #illumos[22:42:44] <Meths> Why aren't you using nightly script.sh ?[22:43:01] <igork> it is befor[22:43:14] <igork> https://www.illumos.org/projects/illumos-gate/wiki/How_To_Build_illumos[22:43:35] <igork> "Preparing build tools" section[22:43:35] <igork>[22:44:12] <igork> I can provide my environment variables[22:44:23] <Meths> Ah, no need, one sec...[22:44:28] <igork> ok[22:45:03] <igork> my last successfully build at Oct 25[22:45:56] <Meths> Did the ksh93 shell script command work?[22:46:02] <igork> yes[22:46:21] <igork> by how to : ksh93 bldenv.sh -d illumos.sh[22:46:35] <igork> igor@srv111:/export/code/illumos-gate$ ksh93 bldenv.sh -d illumos.sh[22:46:35] <igork> Build type is DEBUG[22:46:35] <igork> Usage: dirname [-frx] string[22:46:35] <igork> RELEASE is 5.11[22:46:35] <igork> VERSION is testws[22:47:03] <Meths> You haven't customised your shell script. Your paths are wrong[22:47:48] <igork> CODEMGR_WS="/export/code/illumos-gate";[22:48:10] <igork> $ pwd[22:48:10] <igork> /export/code/illumos-gate[22:48:20] <igork> where I'm wrong ?[22:48:41] <Aram> do you also export CODEMGR_WS?[22:48:54] <Meths> Look at the different paths in lines 1 and 2 of your output. Where did you put the tools you built?[22:49:17] <igork> igor@srv111:/export/code/illumos-gate$ echo $CODEMGR_WS[22:49:17] <igork> /export/code/illumos-gate[22:49:40] <igork> cd $CODEMGR_WS/usr/src[22:49:52] <igork> from how to[22:49:57] <igork> step-by-step[22:50:00] <igork> copy-past[22:50:25] <igork> failed on end[22:50:38] <igork> dmake: Fatal error: Command failed for target `bldtools'[22:50:51] <igork> dmake: Fatal error: Command failed for target `elfextract'[22:52:11] <igork> I can post all log[22:52:16] <igork> ok ?[22:55:24] <igork> full log: http://pastebin.com/QJtqG0Ms[22:56:14] *** RoyK has left #illumos[22:57:33] *** lblume has quit IRC[22:58:17] *** cuguardo has quit IRC[23:09:08] *** sponix has joined #illumos[23:11:43] *** gebi has joined #illumos[23:12:38] <Meths> igork: Can you paste your illumos.sh and your env output please?[23:14:44] <igork> I have found interest line: ONBLD_TOOLS=/export/testws/usr/src/tools/proto/root_i386-nd/opt/onbld[23:14:54] <igork> ON_CLOSED_BINS=/export/code/illumos-gate/closed[23:15:09] <igork> PATH=/export/code/illumos-gate/usr/src/tools/proto/root_i386-nd/opt/onbld/bin:/export/code/illumos-gate/usr/src/tools/proto/root_i386-nd/opt/onbld/bin/i386:/opt/onbld/bin:/opt/onbld/bin/i386:/opt/SUNWspro/bin:/usr/ccs/bin:/usr/bin:/usr/sbin:/usr/ucb:/usr/etc:/usr/openwin/bin:/usr/sfw/bin:/opt/sfw/bin:.[23:15:18] <igork> PKGARCHIVE=/export/code/illumos-gate/packages/i386/nightly[23:15:25] <Meths> Not in channel[23:15:29] <gdamore> I've reedited about 5 different e-mail messages relating to pax/star/tar/gtar.[23:15:29] *** estibi_ has quit IRC[23:15:54] <Meths> igork: and yes, your ONBLD_TOOLS is wrong.[23:16:01] <igork> yes[23:16:02] <gdamore> I've decided I'm just going to do the work to integrate a pax replacement, and everyone else be damned.[23:16:03] <igork> I see[23:16:08] <igork> but - why ?[23:16:47] <gdamore> igork: your file doesn't have correct paths in it.[23:16:50] <Meths> igork: I asked you to pastebin your illumos.sh[23:16:53] <igork> I can't double run illumos.sh with different variables ?[23:17:01] <igork> ok[23:17:35] <gdamore> I usually copy the file to the top level tree, then you need to edit $GATE, and $CODEMGR_WS in that file.[23:17:50] <gdamore> its a good idea to edit MAILTO as well (but I usually don't bother)[23:17:51] <igork> yes[23:17:54] <igork> one moment[23:17:56] <gdamore> the rest of the file should be unchanged.[23:18:48] <gdamore> I usually edit NIGHTLY_OPTIONS as well. Here are mine: NIGHTLY_OPTIONS="-FnCDlmprt"; export NIGHTLY_OPTIONS[23:18:51] <igork> Your paste has triggered our automatic SPAM protection filter. This happens when too many links are detected in a paste.[23:19:01] <igork> I can't post my illumos.sh[23:19:11] <gdamore> wow.[23:19:20] <igork> I found mistake and will try to resolve it[23:19:35] <gdamore> but anyway, the "t" at the end of the options is useful because it means use the tools in the proto area.[23:20:02] <richlowe> Sigh[23:20:06] <gdamore> what's most interesting should be the first three non-comment lines.[23:20:08] <richlowe> The t at the end is useless, because that's the default.[23:20:10] <richlowe> and has been for two years.[23:20:33] <igork> gdamore: yes, I have updated all what I need[23:20:37] <gdamore> really? I guess I've been using that option for a *long* time now. (far longer than 2 years)[23:20:50] <richlowe> gdamore: Yup[23:20:56] <richlowe> the meaning is inversed, +t to use the /opt copy[23:21:30] <samuelyounge> What do the 'F' and 'D' options do?[23:21:49] <igork> but ONBLD_TOOLS have line: #ONBLD_TOOLS=/opt/onbld; export ONBLD_TOOLS[23:21:58] <gdamore> -D do a build with DEBUG on[23:21:58] <gdamore> -F do _not_ do a non-DEBUG build[23:22:00] <igork> remark before[23:22:15] <samuelyounge> oh[23:22:19] <samuelyounge> Okay, many thanks[23:22:26] <igork> I'll try to update this in illumos.sh[23:22:39] <gdamore> I probably should remove "F"... but for development I usually leave it in place.[23:27:30] *** jamesd2 has quit IRC[23:28:03] *** jamesd2 has joined #illumos[23:30:47] <gber> gdamore: +10 for the archiver solution[23:31:39] *** cuguardo has joined #illumos[23:33:28] <gber> gdamore: I've read a bit in the wiki of libarchive, they support extended attributes (although differently than solaris), in fact they're compatible with star and seem to have at least partial support for solaris tar[23:34:46] <gber> I don't want to get involved into this but it looks quite interesting nonetheless[23:35:18] <Triskelios> igork: pastebin.com sucks anyway, use pastie.org or rafb.net/paste or etherpad[23:37:24] <igork> ok, thanks[23:38:04] <igork> I have resolved my problem - I have remove "#" before ONBLD_TOOLS[23:42:10] *** andy_js has quit IRC[23:43:21] *** m4rku5 has quit IRC[23:44:04] *** mikw has quit IRC[23:52:25] *** postwait has quit IRC[23:56:57] *** spked has quit IRC[23:58:30] *** dajhorn has quit IRC[23:58:51] <gdamore> gber: weren't you one that suggested I look at libarchiver...[23:59:04] <gdamore> to be honest, I don't need more help from the peanut gallery on archivers.[23:59:16] <gdamore> I *do* need people who actually *do* things. :-)[23:59:54] <gdamore> not saying that you don't do your part for OI, but this particular issue is a festering wound.