October 1, 2010 
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October 1, 2010 [00:17:48] *** stallion has quit IRC[00:27:40] *** Tenzer is now known as tenzer[00:31:40] *** jfcastro has quit IRC[00:38:17] *** psychicist has quit IRC[00:43:03] *** borat has left #illumos[01:04:27] *** Thrae has quit IRC[01:27:00] *** vraa has quit IRC[01:28:19] *** Aram has quit IRC[02:12:37] *** samuelyounge has quit IRC[02:13:36] *** ganbold has joined #illumos[02:15:15] *** palowoda has quit IRC[02:15:25] *** palowoda has joined #illumos[02:30:42] *** vraa has joined #illumos[02:31:36] *** piwi has quit IRC[02:45:15] *** juanfra has joined #illumos[02:56:15] *** ams_ has quit IRC[02:58:55] *** samuelyounge has joined #illumos[03:01:29] *** juanfra has quit IRC[03:09:33] *** palowoda has joined #illumos[03:14:52] *** xapiens has quit IRC[03:21:02] *** axscode has joined #illumos[03:44:07] *** Thrae has joined #illumos[03:56:12] *** zynox has quit IRC[03:56:57] *** zynox has joined #illumos[03:59:41] *** elijah-mbp has joined #illumos[04:12:07] *** xapiens has joined #illumos[04:20:08] *** gwr_ has joined #illumos[04:20:51] *** gwr_ has left #illumos[04:28:31] *** Tempt has quit IRC[04:32:05] *** Tempt has joined #illumos[04:32:05] *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Tempt[04:33:07] *** arek_deepinit has quit IRC[04:36:12] *** davenz has quit IRC[04:37:16] *** n0ah is now known as arr0w[04:44:30] *** arr0w is now known as n0ah[04:46:36] *** xapiens has quit IRC[04:50:03] *** xapiens has joined #illumos[04:58:46] *** xapiens has quit IRC[05:09:10] *** edp_work has quit IRC[05:33:14] *** samuelyounge has quit IRC[05:38:06] *** edp_work has joined #illumos[05:46:33] *** samuelyounge has joined #illumos[05:46:44] *** ivo_ has quit IRC[05:55:59] *** Garen has joined #illumos[05:58:57] *** Garen_ has quit IRC[06:04:49] *** n0ah has quit IRC[06:09:44] *** vraa has quit IRC[06:19:26] *** ravenslay3r has joined #illumos[06:20:42] *** rkhshm has joined #illumos[06:24:05] *** samuelyounge has quit IRC[06:27:51] *** jamesd2 has joined #illumos[06:31:03] *** kart_ has quit IRC[06:33:29] *** samuelyounge has joined #illumos[06:40:46] *** jamesd_laptop has joined #illumos[06:43:37] *** jamesd2 has quit IRC[06:53:46] *** Zauberpo1y has joined #illumos[06:55:34] *** Zauberpony has quit IRC[07:18:33] *** bayoda has joined #illumos[07:21:19] *** axscodes has joined #illumos[07:26:46] *** n0ah has joined #illumos[07:39:09] *** amuck has quit IRC[07:39:24] *** amuck has joined #illumos[07:46:36] *** lgtaube has quit IRC[07:50:46] *** hajma has quit IRC[07:51:19] *** n0ah has quit IRC[07:53:38] <gdamore> Wow. I think I'm *finally* finished with the coding for localedef. It groks all the UTF-8 localedef sources at least. I think there are some edge cases with ellipses that I'm not handling, but, otherwise its about done.[07:54:22] *** bayoda has left #illumos[07:56:33] *** RoyK has quit IRC[07:56:33] <richlowe> Now we just have to deal with whatever you break...[07:56:36] *** sponix has quit IRC[07:56:41] <gdamore> heh.[07:56:45] *** sponix has joined #illumos[07:56:50] <gdamore> i have lots of testing to do.[07:56:54] <gdamore> collation will be ... interesting.[07:57:13] <gdamore> I wound up rewriting a lot of the libc collation code... it was actually really really terrible.[07:57:45] <gdamore> way too many allocations....and could not possibly properly support a the full posix collation capabilities.[07:57:53] <gdamore> the new code does.[07:58:13] <gdamore> collation data for each language is kind of meaty though.[07:58:41] <gdamore> Japanese for example is 2.0MB source, and the delivered collation database is about 350K[07:59:05] <gdamore> even English is about 120K for collation data. Thanks to a very very rich set of UTF-8 collation data.[07:59:58] <gdamore> its also at least twice as big as it really needs to be, since COLLATE_WEIGHTS_MAX was set to 10 by some "genius" a few years ago.[08:00:43] <gdamore> (I have found a use for it to be "5", owing to an edge case required by the POSIX spec.[08:01:19] <gdamore> I don't even think Linux gnulibc gets the posix collation details right.[08:04:18] *** tenzer is now known as Tenzer[08:08:01] *** eggs has quit IRC[08:15:34] *** m2acis has joined #illumos[08:17:30] <madwizard> Coffee[08:18:19] <lblume> madwizard: Espresso for me, please.[08:18:52] <madwizard> Ok[08:20:55] *** axscodes has quit IRC[08:21:18] *** axscode has quit IRC[08:21:29] *** gebi has joined #illumos[08:24:03] *** amuck has quit IRC[08:36:27] *** hsp has joined #illumos[08:39:47] *** Tenzer is now known as tenzer[08:48:03] *** axscode has joined #illumos[08:48:06] *** |AbsyntH| has joined #illumos[08:48:24] *** merzo has joined #illumos[08:53:31] <madwizard> Coffee[08:58:34] <lblume> Yes, me too.[09:04:02] *** lgtaube has joined #illumos[09:13:08] *** jamesd_laptop has quit IRC[09:20:45] *** hnhn has joined #illumos[09:21:32] *** RoyK has joined #illumos[09:23:49] *** Protux has joined #illumos[09:29:40] *** eggs has joined #illumos[09:31:28] *** eggs has joined #illumos[09:35:06] *** Protux has quit IRC[09:37:59] *** sancho has joined #illumos[09:38:20] *** jfcastro has joined #illumos[09:40:12] *** lkocman has joined #illumos[09:40:34] *** kart_ has joined #illumos[09:41:46] *** Stellar has quit IRC[09:45:53] *** hajma has joined #illumos[09:46:29] *** Stellar has joined #illumos[09:50:43] *** jamesd2 has joined #illumos[09:50:43] *** Protux has joined #illumos[09:50:54] *** tenzer is now known as Tenzer[10:07:14] *** taemun has quit IRC[10:08:15] *** taemun has joined #illumos[10:10:16] *** DerSaidin has quit IRC[10:11:07] *** DerSaidin has joined #illumos[10:11:08] *** DerSaidin has joined #illumos[10:16:36] *** jamesd2 has 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*** ams_ has joined #illumos[18:41:58] *** cmbntr has joined #illumos[18:44:05] *** cmbntr has quit IRC[18:58:02] *** tenzer is now known as Tenzer[18:59:09] *** Stellar|2 has quit IRC[19:01:34] *** Stellar has joined #illumos[19:05:39] *** stinger has joined #illumos[19:16:05] *** hajma has quit IRC[19:18:41] *** arek_deepinit has quit IRC[19:18:47] *** dyusupov has joined #illumos[19:21:07] *** Edgeman has quit IRC[19:24:00] <gwr> Can anyone tell me where the command 'pkgfmt' is supposed to come from?[19:24:23] <gwr> It seems to be not installed on my system, and "pkg search pkgfmt" finds nothing.[19:26:38] <gwr> Oh - I found the source in the "pkg" consolidation, but I still don't see how to get it installed...[19:29:20] *** trbs has quit IRC[19:30:36] *** dajhorn has quit IRC[19:30:46] *** Edgeman has joined #illumos[19:34:44] *** kovertX has quit IRC[19:36:40] *** kovertX has joined #illumos[19:45:52] *** gebi has joined #illumos[19:47:37] <alanc> it should be installed when you install the pkg software[19:48:25] *** samuelyounge has quit IRC[19:48:50] *** Edgeman has quit IRC[19:53:14] *** arek_deepinit has joined #illumos[19:54:07] *** kokotier has quit IRC[19:58:10] *** Edgeman has joined #illumos[20:06:07] <richlowe> gwr: either install newer pkg bits, or in the case of pkgfmt (and only pkgfmt) you can safely just copy the script[20:06:21] <richlowe> that said, I thought that if you were too backdated to have pkgfmt, you're screwed in other ways too.[20:07:17] <richlowe> though, if you don't have pkgfmt ,you must be in a position to install bits from estibi's repo, too.[20:07:23] <richlowe> so maybe that's the better answer.[20:08:20] <e^ipi> has anyone actually ever managed to get distro constructor to do anything useful?[20:08:29] <e^ipi> aside from presumably the DC people[20:09:07] <richlowe> Yes.[20:09:17] <richlowe> What's up?[20:09:37] <e^ipi> erm, not sure... it can't validate the manifests it ships with it seems[20:09:52] <richlowe> can you give me a hint at the versions?[20:10:29] <richlowe> or some description of what you've done and what the error messages are :)[20:10:35] <alanc> I believe the openindiana folks managed to assemble their distro with DC[20:10:40] <richlowe> alanc: they did.[20:10:54] <richlowe> alanc: I just msg'd him a list of people I know have done this recently and could help. :)[20:11:06] <e^ipi> thx[20:14:11] <e^ipi> i'll keep digging, I'm just making sure it's not just completely messed up in the first place; largely I think i'm just not understanding what the half-dozen config files all do[20:14:53] <richlowe> also, holy shit emacs on the mac is unstable.[20:15:04] <richlowe> e^ipi: "The half dozen config files", you should only need to be caring about one.[20:15:13] <richlowe> AI and text spread them around, sadly.[20:16:21] <richlowe> but ai_<platform>_image.xml, text_mode_<platform>.xml and slim_cd_<platform>.xml are the input files, as best as I recall._[20:17:04] <richlowe> e^ipi: what is probably still the latest post on lianep's blog is probably a decent intro.[20:17:42] *** n1c0b has quit IRC[20:17:52] *** n1c0b has joined #illumos[20:18:19] * e^ipi misses smdiskless[20:25:29] <richlowe> hush your mouth![20:25:47] <richlowe> though only as a matter of principle.[20:25:57] <RoyK> hi all. I have a 12TB test box running OI atm and it might be released from testing soon - would this be good for the project developers?[20:27:29] *** hnhn has joined #illumos[20:28:05] *** trbs has joined #illumos[20:29:13] <richlowe> e^ipi: though if smdiskless did what you want, surely image-create is closer to the right place?[20:29:35] *** N2Deep has joined #illumos[20:42:52] *** arek_deepinit has quit IRC[20:43:45] *** arek_deepinit has joined #illumos[20:46:32] <gwr> richlowe: is the "pkgfmt" command new? Why do I not see it with "pkg search pkgfmt" now?[20:46:57] <gwr> I'm trying to build onnv_147 and it fails missing pkgfmt[20:47:18] <gwr> I'm not sure where I could copy it from...[20:50:36] <jbk> might need to download and build pkg-gate[20:53:23] <richlowe> gwr: I have no idea what you're running.[20:53:29] <richlowe> gwr: it's new compared to 134[20:53:41] <richlowe> but it's in estibi's ON/caiman/pkg repo mentioned in the How To Build wiki page[20:54:01] <gwr> I'm running 139, trying to build 147 (plus a little)[20:54:05] <richlowe> jbk: easier just to use estibi's stuff.[20:54:17] <richlowe> gwr: same answer, you'd be best installing estibi's bits, if you can.[20:54:23] <richlowe> gwr: which, no, don't upgrade evolution. :)[20:54:24] <gwr> OK, where do I get that estibi's stuff?[20:55:19] <gwr> It may not matter, for evolution. It just crapped out for me today in response to some data it received (I'm not sure which yet) and now will not start.[20:55:20] <richlowe> gwr: http://illumos.org/projects/illumos-gate/wiki/How_To_Build_illumos -- "Upgrade to b145" (it's actually just ON, caiman, and pkg 145)[20:55:32] *** arek_deepinit has quit IRC[20:55:38] <gwr> I'm about ready to give up (again) on evolution. Too buggy.[20:55:50] *** arek_deepinit has joined #illumos[20:55:53] <gwr> Sadly, it means reading my company email on a Windows box...[20:56:08] <richlowe> I'd blame gdamore. :)[20:56:16] <gwr> Or webmail (they do Exchange, or webmail. That's all.)[20:56:31] <gwr> Tried that. He just delegates such things to me:)[20:56:57] <gwr> We have the "you complain about it, you own it" policy:)[20:57:22] <gwr> (actually, I'm making that up, but it's not far from the truth:)[20:57:31] <jbk> well in a lot of ways that's nice[20:58:04] <jbk> if something bugs you, you can fix it vs. waiting on some massive bureaucracy to get around to fixing it, and usually doing a poor job in the first place[20:58:13] <gwr> So I should be able to copy pkgfmt from the 145 install that I have but don't yet use, right?[20:59:34] <richlowe> Yes.[20:59:40] <richlowe> but that won't work with any other part of pkg, really.[20:59:58] <gwr> OK. Will I need other parts to make my build finish?[21:00:07] <richlowe> I don't remember.[21:00:37] <richlowe> I had thought you needed newer caiman to deal with beadm moving from there to ON.[21:00:39] <gwr> guess I'll find out.[21:01:07] <gwr> I'm only building ON, so more stuff coming in should be OK...[21:03:16] <gwr> Just curious: If pkgfmt is needed for the build, why is it not in ON usr/src/tools/scripts instead?[21:03:30] <richlowe> because ON is not free standing.[21:03:39] <gwr> That sucks.[21:04:08] <gwr> Is if far from being free standing?[21:04:12] <richlowe> Immensely[21:05:27] <gwr> grumble ... mumble... "poor software engineering practice" grumble...[21:06:16] *** eXeC001er has quit IRC[21:06:56] <e^ipi> most software doesn't ship with the ability to bootstrap itself[21:07:11] <e^ipi> nor would that really be possible, you'll always depend on something[21:07:20] <e^ipi> unless you're wiring together vacuum tubes[21:08:06] <richlowe> It's also not like this is new.[21:09:22] <gwr> For building a kernel plus essential user-land, it should not be necessay to depend on much besides compilation tools, archivers, and (I suppose) whatever you use to package it into bootable form.[21:09:31] *** n1c0b has quit IRC[21:09:44] <gwr> SunOS used to be like that. BSD's were like that last I looked...[21:10:04] <gwr> Perhaps part of the problem is ON has way more than that now...[21:10:26] <e^ipi> *eyeroll*[21:11:32] <gwr> Do people expect to ever again be able to cross-compile this stuff for some new processor, for example?[21:11:42] <gwr> How will the "native only" approach work there?[21:12:01] <e^ipi> instead of bitching, why don't you write some patches[21:12:33] <richlowe> gwr: this problem existed just the same the last 2 times ON was brought up on new-ish platforms[21:12:36] <richlowe> both amd64 and sun4v[21:13:13] <gwr> yeah, and as I recalled, they built little bits of it essentially by hand...[21:13:16] <richlowe> and the ppc and arm folks had bits which worked too, though they didn't enjoy it.[21:13:39] <richlowe> gwr: right, that's the tradeoff[21:14:02] <richlowe> gwr: your way would vastly increase the size of ON, or gut a lot of what it contains.[21:14:21] <gwr> I'd love to put ON on a diet. I doubt it will happen.[21:14:34] <richlowe> You can't put ON on a diet _and_ have it be self sufficient.[21:14:41] <richlowe> making it self sufficient would make it considerably larger.[21:17:56] <gwr> What is required (high-level description) beyond compilation tools?[21:18:19] <e^ipi> the ON CBE is solaris.[21:18:28] <jbk> but what would you lose if you said 'you need compiler (incl ld), sed, awk, make, ln, rm, mkdir, install, tr, sh to build it?[21:19:19] <richlowe> gwr: the contents of developer/opensolaris/osnet, plus compilers.[21:19:22] <e^ipi> lots of JDS & SFW, pkg, few others[21:19:30] <richlowe> but that package is lacking things that you can't avoid having.[21:19:34] *** hajma has joined #illumos[21:19:42] <gwr> I was a little surprised to see dependencies on apache stuff, for example...[21:19:49] <richlowe> glib, libxml2, hal,[21:20:00] <richlowe> gwr: CUPS (printing)[21:20:01] <e^ipi> gwr: printing is in ON, printing exports IPP, IPP needs apache[21:20:44] <richlowe> printing is one of the few things you could realisticly gut without making things worse.[21:21:25] <e^ipi> SMB depends on printing (a bunch of calls to cifs_enumerate_printers() or whatever the function is)[21:21:30] <e^ipi> but you can rip those bits out[21:22:32] <jbk> richlowe: gut from ON or anywhere else on *nix :)[21:22:36] <richlowe> e^ipi: right, but you can say "stuff printing, as a feature" much more readily than "Booting is for sissies"[21:23:04] * jbk is still fighting a mysterious print issue on solaris 10[21:23:10] <gwr> One doesn't need to give up these features. I just dislike having them all in _one_ wad.[21:23:11] <jbk> i think it's an application bug[21:23:22] <gwr> Clearly I'm in a small minority that cares about this.[21:23:49] <e^ipi> gwr: the cifs server is in ON... the cifs server calls printing things[21:24:06] <e^ipi> you were just bitching about self-sufficiency ...[21:24:13] *** Kush- has quit IRC[21:24:25] <gwr> There are way s to deal with dependencies other than glomming everything into one consolidation.[21:24:38] <e^ipi> and that's why a bunch of them are in different consolidations[21:24:41] <e^ipi> like pkg(5)[21:24:45] <e^ipi> or jds[21:24:46] <richlowe> which is what makes ON not freestanding![21:26:15] <gwr> Yup. I want it both ways.[21:26:44] <richlowe> Getting it both ways would have required much more attention to boundaries over the last 15 or so years.[21:26:56] <gwr> exactly.[21:27:00] <richlowe> amongst other, procedural, problems.[21:27:15] <richlowe> some of the stuff which in your model should be in ON, would have then screwed other things by being there.[21:27:17] <gwr> Or people used to dealing with cross-compilation environments...[21:27:40] *** rootard has quit IRC[21:30:44] <gwr> The excessive interdependency does cause problems though: For example, trying to build a recent Samba to run on a NAS (no Gnome) and finding that it want some Gnome libraries...[21:31:18] <gwr> The "let's pull in everything" approach has costs...[21:33:01] *** N2Deep has quit IRC[21:33:32] *** marsell has joined #illumos[21:39:06] *** eggs has joined #illumos[21:41:44] <richlowe> Depending on what you call 'gnome libraries' you have them anyway.[21:42:18] <richlowe> though probably not on a NAS, I think they're loose enough to evade in that case.[21:44:05] *** eggs has quit IRC[21:45:16] *** samuelyounge has joined #illumos[21:45:35] *** alhazred has quit IRC[21:46:45] *** Stellar has quit IRC[21:47:33] *** vraa_ has quit IRC[21:48:14] *** gebi has quit IRC[21:49:53] *** ganbold has quit IRC[21:51:25] *** Stellar has joined #illumos[21:55:46] *** vraa has joined #illumos[21:58:38] *** bayoda has joined #illumos[21:59:30] *** hsp has quit IRC[22:01:35] *** kart_ has quit IRC[22:07:04] *** nikolam_ has joined #illumos[22:09:32] *** kart_ has joined #illumos[22:14:06] *** Kush- has joined #illumos[22:17:10] *** arek_deepinit has quit IRC[22:17:36] *** stinger has quit IRC[22:17:58] *** hajma_ has joined #illumos[22:19:26] *** hajma has quit IRC[22:21:57] *** eggs has joined #illumos[22:25:19] *** xapiens has joined #illumos[22:33:05] *** Kush- has quit IRC[22:34:38] *** xapiens has quit IRC[22:42:11] *** nikolam_ has quit IRC[22:47:12] *** Kush- has joined #illumos[23:01:21] *** Stellar|2 has joined #illumos[23:02:52] *** Stellar has quit IRC[23:03:53] *** mnbdy has quit IRC[23:18:03] *** Stellar has joined #illumos[23:19:07] *** Stellar|2 has quit IRC[23:33:17] *** ams_ has quit IRC[23:46:43] *** ams_ has joined #illumos[23:50:58] *** xapiens has joined #illumos[23:54:18] *** dyusupov has quit IRC[23:59:27] *** vraa has quit IRC