[00:00:10] <luroh> also no idea if it matters, but the line in my notes contain quotation marks, like this: "CustomVideoMode1" and "1024x600x32"
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[00:00:46] <SMCollins1> anyone know how to dump info on the usb midi driver ?
[00:01:34] <luroh> jayrulez: http://www.virtualbox.org/manual/ch09.html#idp13618992
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[00:02:27] <luroh> scgtrp: looks like it should be a number 1-16
[00:04:21] <jayrulez> this works
[00:04:22] <jayrulez> VBoxManage setextradata "Haiku OS 040312" "CustomVideoMode1" "1366x768x32"
[00:04:26] <jayrulez> thank u
[00:04:39] <luroh> cool :)
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[00:04:49] <jayrulez> not sure if it's the quotes or the 1 that made the difference
[00:05:09] <scgtrp> probably the 1
[00:05:11] <luroh> no idea, i'd bet on the 1
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[00:08:42] <jayrulez> looks so much better :)
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[02:47:36] <CIA-37> haiku.master: mmadia * hrev43980 http://cgit.haiku-os.org/haiku/commit/?id=925dd7c :
[02:47:36] <CIA-37> Ensure that bash's mkbuiltins won't pollute HAIKU_TOP. [2 commits]
[02:47:36] <CIA-37> Introduces a commandline option to specify the filename of the
[02:47:36] <CIA-37> temp_struct_filename, allowing the buildsystem to place it on the same volume
[02:47:36] <CIA-37> as HAIKU_OUTPUT_DIR. Fixes #6746.
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[10:42:27] <Begasus> moin
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[14:01:04] <Begasus> so back in native Haiku ;)
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[14:32:13] *** ChanServ sets mode: +o bga
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[15:08:50] <Guest9818> Haiku mentioned w/ screenshot on ars technica: http://arstechnica.com/business/news/2012/04/an-in-depth-look-at-qt-5-making-javascript-a-first-class-citizen-for-native-cross-platform-developme.ars/2
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[15:17:26] <Franxico> bga! =D
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[15:18:53] <bga> Franxico!
[15:19:14] <bga> Funny thing. Yesterday when I tried to join the #haiku channel, someone was using my nick in Freenode.
[15:19:20] <Franxico> beleza?
[15:19:26] <Franxico> oh
[15:19:27] <bga> So I used nickserv to get the nick back.
[15:19:59] <bga> The guy that was using it complained to me and I went to look since when I had this nick
[15:20:10] <bga> Registered : Mar 25 14:29:41 2002 (10 years, 2 weeks, 3 days, 22:45:42 ago)
[15:20:17] <bga> I am old. :(
[15:20:27] <Franxico> wow
[15:20:29] <adamk_> Heh.
[15:20:31] <bga> Franxico: Como estão as coisas ai na França?
[15:20:38] <Begasus> lol ... welcome to the club bga ;)
[15:20:43] <Franxico> bga
[15:20:50] <Franxico> tudo otimo e ai'?
[15:21:02] <bga> Begasus: Not sure I am glad to join. ;)
[15:21:10] <bga> Franxico: Tranquilo.
[15:21:31] <Begasus> there's no stopping the time ;)
[15:21:59] <Franxico> bga e a patroa? :)
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[15:24:10] <Franxico> is it normal that I can't choose Haiku cpu number at vmware?
[15:25:24] <Franxico> rev43980
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[15:31:02] <Franxico> normally I use Virtualbox
[15:31:28] <Franxico> I can do this with it
[15:32:15] <bga> Franxico: Tá bem também. :)
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[15:43:08] <bga> Franxico: Sim. Estou pretendendo ir pra França qualquer dia desses. Deixa as férias chegarem. :)
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[15:57:22] <Franxico> deixo :)
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[16:17:38] <Franxico> bga achou a causa do bug da rede?
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[16:22:26] <bga> Franxico: Nope. Ocupado portando o Go pra Haiku.
[16:22:39] <bga> Não estou usandoa  rede e, portanto, não tem me incomodado. :)
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[16:27:31] 
[16:27:34] <Franxico> ?
[16:29:27] <bga> http://golang.org
[16:31:25] <Franxico> ah sim, massa!
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[17:08:03] <CIA-37> haiku.master: kallisti5 * hrev43981 http://cgit.haiku-os.org/haiku/commit/?id=d387f54 :
[17:08:03] <CIA-37> x86: Change cpu feature flags to shifts
[17:08:03] <CIA-37> * No functional change
[17:08:03] <CIA-37> * Added missing ia64 emulation flag
[17:08:03] <CIA-37> * More closely matches AMD_EXT defines
[17:08:03] <CIA-37> * Easier to read compared to CPU documentation
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[17:37:32] <Cian> anyone any idea why I'd be getting undefined references to malloc/free when linking when I would have assumed they were in libroot and hence automatically included?
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[17:43:57] <hamishm> well it's not guaranteed that libroot gets linked in
[17:44:02] <hamishm> it depends what you're building and how you're building it
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[17:44:17] <Luko> hi
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[17:48:54] <Cian> bog standard autoconf/automake build system library; doesn't do anything special that'd leave it out
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[17:50:27] <Cian> explictly adding it gives the same error
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[17:53:59] <OmniMancer> can we have pastebin of error?
[17:56:16] <Cian> http://pastebin.com/FFbE4jJH
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[18:14:57] * SMCollins watchs vlc progress from a distance
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[18:16:49] <Anarchos> How can i compile programs which require X11 ?
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[18:17:38] <SMCollins> hmmmmm
[18:17:42] <Cian> SMCollins got a few haikuports updates to do to reflect what little progress there has been
[18:18:02] <SMCollins> I'll keep an eye on ya, I'd love to try a updated vlc port
[18:18:34] <SMCollins> any news on the gui ?
[18:18:46] <Cian> not even got close to getting the lib working yet
[18:19:03] <SMCollins> which lib ?
[18:19:05] <Cian> libVLC
[18:19:17] <Cian> it can be built as a library to embed in your own applications
[18:19:17] <SMCollins> changed that much ?
[18:19:22] <Cian> changed hugely
[18:19:29] <SMCollins> ahhh, embed that thing right into media player wooot
[18:21:14] <Cian> not sure if that's the best approach. ideally we'd just put disk support (CD/DVD/BD) and stream support in to mediaplayer, filling in any holes in the media kit as required
[18:21:39] <SMCollins> I know a while back someone had it built, but it didn't work properly due to kernel signals that were missing, Ingo added those signals last year iirc
[18:22:12] <SMCollins> Cian: thats a better approach imho, just add to media player
[18:23:14] <Cian> they built it with a QT GUI and I'm not sure what if any sound support
[18:24:53] <Cian> probably portaudio
[18:25:13] <Cian> VLC as-was had a native GUI, overlay video support, and multi-channel audio support natively
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[18:26:09] <SMCollins> well, the QT gui is no issue, there is a haiku port of QT, why not just rebuild the whole thing in QT ??? I hate it when the build a app on several toolkits
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[18:26:53] <SMCollins> its one of those things that driver me crazy
[18:28:17] <Cian> the Haiku port of QT is massive
[18:30:35] <SMCollins> massive ?
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[18:31:26] <Cian> its about the size of VLC again
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[18:32:06] <SMCollins> qt is only around 25mb, but iirc you can just build in what you need
[18:32:17] <SMCollins> make portable versions iirc
[18:35:00] <Cian> VLC downloads were ~9MB including static versions of gettext which should no longer be needed
[18:35:53] <SMCollins> I'm not really understanding the concern ?
[18:36:12] <Cian> requiring people to install a 25MB framework they quite likely don't already have, to run a 9MB app...
[18:36:24] <SMCollins> so ?
[18:36:49] <SMCollins> or add the functionality to mediaplayer
[18:37:01] <SMCollins> then its all native, and presumably much lighter
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[18:38:42] <Cian> can you not see a problem with requring nearly 3x as much stuff to run an application?
[18:38:57] <Cian> on an OS which is meant to be the successor to one that was a 40MB download
[18:39:01] <SMCollins> not really, considering I'd be playing a file thats like 20gb
[18:39:24] <Cian> bloat
[18:40:09] <Cian> there's a reason that it now requires a 2Ghz Core with 2GB of RAM to do tasks a 386 DX with 4MB RAM was capable of (relatively advanced word processing, simple databases)...
[18:40:53] <SMCollins> I look at it like this, Haiku is a bit shy on apps, to rewrite many of them would be a huge undertaking
[18:41:37] <SMCollins> if there is a weight penalty to getting a application "25mb I've got pdf catalog that dwarf that" then it is what it is
[18:41:58] <Cian> its a lot more than a disk/download penalty
[18:42:27] <Cian> if QT was widely adopted on Haiku, it might be OK, but having it for one app or even worse; having specific versions for specific apps, leads to massive memory usage and so on
[18:42:53] <SMCollins> How old is this hardware that this is a problem for ?
[18:43:22] <SMCollins> also, there is qt 4.7 and qt 4.8, and qt 4.8 support everything in 4.7 going backwards, so just one QT version to worry about iirc
[18:43:28] <Cian> SMCollins there's what I just said
[18:43:36] <jayrulez> Wouldn't it be worthwhile to just do an official port of qt5
[18:43:39] <Cian> we shouldn't continually expect that rising hardware speeds/RAM values are going to save us
[18:43:56] <Cian> just because its easy to throw hardware at a problem doesn't mean its the correct answer
[18:43:58] <SMCollins> well, the hardware is completely outrunning software development currently
[18:44:11] <Cian> BeOS was *never* intended to work that way
[18:44:19] <SMCollins> sure it would have
[18:44:25] <SMCollins> if they would have had the hardware
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[18:44:49] <Cian> they did have the hardware. it was still an OS that took 50MB to download and ran happily enough in 32MB RAM, when that was well below what was available
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[18:44:56] <SMCollins> as it was BeOS was trading computational throughput for responsiveness and low latency
[18:45:03] <Cian> because there's no *need* to throw hardware at a problem, only laziness
[18:45:17] <Cian> hence why we now need hardware 400x faster than was available to do the same things as 20 years ago
[18:45:50] <SMCollins> try crunching protiens without allot of hardware capability, or encoding video files, at some point compuation overwhelms hardware, if this wasn't true no one would build huge server clusters to crunch numbers
[18:46:20] <Cian> where's the number crunching in writing a document? why does that now need 200MB of RAM to open a word processor?
[18:46:38] <SMCollins> not everyone is using the computer to type word docs
[18:46:45] <Cian> I had to use Access 2.0 recently, its about 3MB in size and yet it actually has all the functions I've ever needed in Access 2010
[18:46:53] <Cian> query designer, SQL DB support, etc
[18:46:54] <SMCollins> the QT browser iI user qupzilla, is lighte on ram then webpositive on average
[18:47:44] <Luko> its posibible to compile QT4 from qt-haiku.ru on gcc2hybrid build with setgcc
[18:47:46] <Luko> ?
[18:48:03] <SMCollins> the framework isn't always the problem, some of its the application itself. Also some feature richness "some of it is absolutely useless bloat" is demanded by users to some degree
[18:48:14] <Cian> one of the main reasons people like BeOS was that it was extremely lightweight
[18:48:18] <SMCollins> luko: I dun't know, ask arfonzo
[18:48:32] <SMCollins> People liked beOS becuase it was very responsive
[18:48:35] <Cian> telling people they need a 25MB download to glue on top of a very simple application does not equate to what the entire point of the OS was
[18:48:44] <Cian> and its a guaranteed way to ensure things *aren't* responsive
[18:48:48] <SMCollins> If BeOS had survived, it'd likely be similar to contemporary systems today
[18:49:19] <SMCollins> responsivness in beos was more with the aggresive premption and likely a lot of optimization in the app server
[18:49:42] <Cian> that's only part of it
[18:49:56] <SMCollins> but they traded that responsivness for computational throughput
[18:50:00] <Cian> why is Word 2010 sluggish on 40 times the RAM that Word 97 found acceptable, when doing the exact same tasks?
[18:50:06] <Cian> bloat
[18:50:27] <SMCollins> theres allot more stuff that word 2010 can do that word97 would only dream of, most of it useless
[18:50:35] <Cian> = QT
[18:50:41] <SMCollins> QT is not bloat
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[18:50:47] <Xeon3D> :O
[18:50:56] <Cian> I'm not distributing an application that should be ~11MB in size (lets give some space for new features) and require a 25MB framework
[18:50:57] <Xeon3D> QT = Crap if you'd ask me.
[18:50:59] <Cian> no way, no how
[18:51:01] <Cian> not happening
[18:51:21] <Cian> its an anathema to everything BeOS was
[18:51:31] <Xeon3D> I don't understand the need of a QT api in a OS that is known and revered for it's lean mean API
[18:51:33] <SMCollins> We can all complain or give opinions on QT, the fact is that its popular with developers and the BeAPI does not seem to be so.
[18:51:50] <SMCollins> QT API isn't really all the different from BeAPI is it ?
[18:52:38] <SMCollins> aside from the fact that it offer more features
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[18:53:48] <Cian> the "nativeness" isn't my concern (unlike most others on the lengthy mailing list thread)
[18:54:03] <Cian> its the fact that its not included and in this case, not needed when its been shown that the app can have a native UI before
[18:55:19] <jayrulez> So do you suggest Haiku without Qt support?
[18:55:49] <SMCollins> QT could be made into a optional package
[18:57:45] <SMCollins> there might even be enough room to include it in the alpha's if the devs were so inclined
[18:57:49] <Premislaus> If Haiku abandon its own API, project Haiku it will die. There will be no sense in continuing to support project Haiku, Haiku Inc, etc.
[18:58:16] <SMCollins> I don't think thats needed at all
[18:58:34] <SMCollins> a API is a tool like a wrench or screwdriver, you pick the tool or the job
[18:58:41] <jayrulez> Supporting Qt does not necessitate abandoning the Haiku API
[18:58:59] <SMCollins> I think they can coexist to each other benefit to be honest
[18:59:01] <Premislaus> Linux distro with NewOS kernel.
[18:59:08] <SMCollins> not even close
[18:59:09] <jayrulez> Haiku needs users in order to survive
[18:59:17] <jayrulez> users need software
[18:59:21] <Anarchos> jayrulez i am one of those users :)
[18:59:34] <jayrulez> Which is great :)
[18:59:56] <Premislaus> Haiku will lose members if it becomes Linux. Sorry for my english...
[19:00:00] <SMCollins> I think having both together is the best approach, it allows easy porting and make it a attractive development enviroment
[19:00:19] <jayrulez> Qt!=Linux
[19:00:21] <SMCollins> Haiku is not "linux" nor do I think anyone would endorse such a godawful concept
[19:00:29] <Premislaus> Users and programs it has Windows.
[19:00:45] <SMCollins> QT does not = linux, by any strech, just like X=11 on windows does not equal linux mac os etc
[19:00:56] <Premislaus> But it is associated with Linux. Besides, it is commercial.
[19:01:06] <jayrulez> Qt is open source
[19:01:06] <SMCollins> whats wrong with commerical ?
[19:01:10] <jayrulez> keep up to date
[19:01:57] <Carbamide> QT has been real open source for a long time
[19:01:58] <Premislaus> Some of the fixes, goes only to the commercial version.
[19:02:03] <SMCollins> I think having it would push the evolution of the native api, as with a bigger user base and more funding from such user base could be very useful. also staying with modern trends in programming would make it easier to determine how best to evolve
[19:02:21] <jayrulez> that was in 4.8
[19:02:31] <mrsun> qt isnt even close to the multi processing capability of the beapi is it ?
[19:02:43] <Anarchos> mrsun no idea
[19:02:45] <jayrulez> going forward, commercial licence will be the same source as open source licence
[19:02:48] <SMCollins> the beapi, just makes threading a bit easier
[19:02:48] <Premislaus> How would I want to use QT, I would have installed any of the Linux distributions.
[19:02:53] <Luko> the problem of qt is that doesnt have evolutionary but revolutionary development
[19:03:09] <mrsun> isnt the whole beapi threaded in itself also ? :)
[19:03:13] <mrsun> or am i mistaking there ?
[19:03:21] <SMCollins> it makes threading low cost
[19:03:27] <Luko> look QT1 has KDE1,, after this dev make QT2 after whole rewrite to KDE2, after QT3 and rewrite to KDE3
[19:03:35] <SMCollins> in terms of developer time, but it also takes some computation trade offs
[19:04:00] <jayrulez> You are missing the point
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[19:04:31] <SMCollins> now, if gallium3d gets ported sucessfully, and haiku gains opencl with gpgpu/cpu acceleration, that api and threading over head becomes a moot point
[19:04:50] <jayrulez> supporting Qt does not mean abandoning the Be API
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[19:05:08] <jayrulez> it just makes a wide range of software available to Haiku users
[19:05:16] <SMCollins> There is no need to abondon the api
[19:05:24] <SMCollins> they can coexist
[19:05:26] <jayrulez> and God knows we need tat
[19:05:41] <SMCollins> in fact QT apps run way better on haiku then they do on every other platofr I have tried them on
[19:05:42] <jayrulez> tat*
[19:05:51] <jayrulez> that*
[19:05:51] <mrsun> yes, qt as qt is ... an optional api is very good, but not replace beapi with it =)
[19:05:52] <Luko> :)
[19:06:00] <Premislaus> In any case, I will not see any sense in continuing to use and support of Haiku. I do not know how other people explain that Haiku is not Linux. I do not know anyone who would use Linux. Everyone reacts allergic to it. Windows only. Or Apple sect.
[19:06:08] <SMCollins> qupzilla loads in 2-3 seconds on haiku, on window and mac its wiat, wait wait wait, like 30-45 seconds minimum
[19:06:30] <SMCollins> Linux has this problem of fracturing
[19:06:34] <jayrulez> Premislaus> you are missing the point entirely
[19:06:39] <SMCollins> makes it a beast to wrestle with
[19:07:01] <jayrulez> Haiku with Qt != Linux
[19:07:11] <jayrulez> in fact, nothing changes about Haiku
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[19:07:25] <jayrulez> Just more software for you to use
[19:07:28] <Luko> maybe someone port this to haiku http://www.qtfm.org/
[19:07:28] <SMCollins> haiku + qt does not = linux
[19:07:45] * Anarchos is tired of QT trolls. A QT port can render porting apps easier. Period.
[19:07:51] * SMCollins wishes for qmultimedia backend for haiku
[19:07:52] <Premislaus> Now you can install QT in Haiku!
[19:07:59] <Luko> ecomstation have qt port too, and they dont have any proble mto use qt
[19:08:06] <SMCollins> actually, you just unzip it
[19:08:52] <SMCollins> Luko: why would you port a QT filemanager ? tracker not doing it for you ?
[19:09:49] <jayrulez> Premislaus> Unless you will volunteer to write all available Qt apps to the Haiku API, then Qt is a plus
[19:10:02] <Luko> i am happy with tracker, but some features are missing like arange icons in grid
[19:10:13] <Luko> preview of images
[19:10:23] <SMCollins> yeah, I'd like the grid myself, maybe skipp_osx will tackle that one next ?
[19:10:32] <Cian> a port of that won't support attributes = the vast majority of the nice features of Tracker are gone
[19:10:34] <SMCollins> yeah image preview would be nice
[19:10:39] <Premislaus> bbl
[19:10:44] <Luko> :)
[19:10:53] <SMCollins> cian: the QT port needs the functionality added to it
[19:11:01] <jayrulez> Luke> improvements to tracker would be more worthwhile than porting another file manager
[19:11:08] <jayrulez> Luko>**
[19:11:16] <Luko> we dontneddpreview of videos, or music but preview of images would be nice like the enhace ofbasec support
[19:11:37] <SMCollins> grid and image preview would be nice for sure
[19:12:04] <SMCollins> given that album on haikuware does image preview and grid, it can't be that aweful, could be tracker add_ons more then likely
[19:12:19] <SMCollins> I could swear there is a tracker add on for beOS that did image preview
[19:12:22] <Luko> Album is nice app
[19:12:50] <SMCollins> yeah, but thats the kind of basic missing functionaliy that should be in the os, make album "minus gui" into a tracker add on
[19:13:13] <jayrulez> Regarding Qt porting, The genode guys did what I think is a full port of Qt to their platform. Maybe people interested in porting Qt to Haiku can look at their patches
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[19:14:01] <SMCollins> it was a gsoc proposal, see if anyone decides to tackle it
[19:14:35] <SMCollins> genode ? what is that ?
[19:15:00] <jayrulez> a microkernel multiserver operating system
[19:15:12] <jayrulez> it's really just the userspace
[19:15:17] <SMCollins> ahh, similar to beos/haiku/minix ?
[19:15:21] <jayrulez> that works across 8 different kernels currently
[19:15:28] <SMCollins> though haiku is more hybrid kernel these days
[19:15:32] <jayrulez> somewhat
[19:15:48] <jayrulez> Their focus is on security and embedded systems I think
[19:15:56] * Anarchos can't remember the difference between micro and hybrid kernels
[19:16:17] <jayrulez> But they say that the framework is general purpose
[19:16:25] <jayrulez> http://genode.org
[19:16:41] <SMCollins> micro kernels everything pretty much runs outside the kernel, hybrid more things in the kernel some things outside the kernel
[19:16:51] <jayrulez> https://github.com/genodelabs/genode/tree/master/qt4 the patches for their qt port is here
[19:17:25] <Luko> SMCollins, mikrokernel with drivers in kernel space is hybrid
[19:17:31] <SMCollins> I actually think the haiku model is pretty good, its got enough in the kernel for good performance and enough outside the kernel to offer stability
[19:17:34] <Luko> like dragonflybsd
[19:18:05] <jayrulez> microkernel, hybrid... doesn't really matter in the long run
[19:18:13] <SMCollins> Luko: good description
[19:18:20] <Luko> Linus T. dont like mikrokernels :)
[19:18:33] <jayrulez> look at the abomination that is linux, but it is still popular and has many developers
[19:19:26] <Luko> Linux is good becouse have very advacned technologies..
[19:19:47] <jayrulez> True, but the architecture sucks
[19:19:49] <SMCollins> jayrulez: harder to keep a monolithic kernel
[19:19:59] <SMCollins> up to date
[19:20:04] <jayrulez> agreed
[19:20:19] <SMCollins> or make changes
[19:20:25] <Luko> but there is light in linux
[19:20:34] <Anarchos> SMCollins i prefer a pure micorkernel. Performance is not so much an issue with my hardware :)
[19:20:42] <Luko> linux move to KMS and wayland will be more like  like haiku
[19:21:04] <jayrulez> Anarchos: Genode supports a few "pure" microkernels
[19:22:04] <jayrulez> Fiasco.OC, L4ka::Pistachio, Codezero, Old Fiasco and others
[19:22:08] * Anarchos thinks that perfs could be much more improved by supporting x64 on such architecture
[19:22:28] <Premislaus> But why waste time, energy and people in port of the QT? It is better to spend resources for the port of utilities. Users do not come because we have a QT.
[19:22:42] <Luko> qt is ported?
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[19:22:48] <Luko> www.qt-haiku.ru
[19:22:57] <Luko> or tiltos
[19:23:03] <Luko> or not?
[19:23:50] <jayrulez> Premislaus: because there are many apps available for qt
[19:24:01] <Premislaus> I mean was to replace API
[19:24:19] <jayrulez> No, noone here is proposing to replace the Haiku API
[19:24:39] <Premislaus> Linux has many applications, but few users.
[19:25:04] <Premislaus> The reason is something else.
[19:25:10] <jayrulez> Linux's few users is much much greater than few Haiku's few
[19:25:58] <jayrulez> The reason is that most hardware ship with a copy of windows
[19:26:16] <jayrulez> most ppl don't know what an OS is much less an alternative OS
[19:26:21] <Luko> problem of Linux is not Linux itself but this there are not commercial quality aplications.. look to Android .. new system with games like GTA, Call of duty for android,, why this is not in linux?
[19:26:42] <scgtrp> (obligatory: it is in linux)
[19:27:07] <jayrulez> OEMs have no practical reasons to ship linux desktops/laptops
[19:27:21] <Premislaus> But the Haiku may have more. Because it is better designed. The only thing missing is the funding by corporations.
[19:28:02] <jayrulez> Haiku needs to be attractive enough for OEMS ship for it to gain a large user base
[19:28:32] <jayrulez> Premislaus: no, haiku now is missing more than that
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[19:28:44] <jayrulez> funding from corporations could help with some of that
[19:29:12] <jayrulez> however, haiku must be attractive enough to reel in that initial investment
[19:30:00] <jayrulez> Haiku will need to offer a developer friendly environment, good IDE etc...
[19:30:06] <jayrulez> good hardware support
[19:30:42] <jayrulez> and user facing functionality that is as good or better than popular contemporaries
[19:30:58] <jayrulez> haiku in its current incarnation falls well short
[19:31:32] <Premislaus> I do not know English well enough to be able to express exactly what I mean... But Linux is not oriented to the processes, but for users (not real people).
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[19:35:09] <jayrulez> hey Anarchos
[19:35:29] <Premislaus> The current path that walks Haiku is good. Although slow, but it leads straight to the goal.
[19:35:54] <jayrulez> are you one of the more active haiku developers?
[19:41:27] <Anarchos> jayrulez no i am not a dev at all
[19:41:30] <Anarchos> jayrulez just user
[19:41:40] <jayrulez> oh
[19:43:37] <jayrulez> I guess the developers are aware of DDEKit
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[19:47:31] <Anarchos> more is broken :/
[19:48:31] <jayrulez> Do u know about DDEKit?
[19:50:15] <Anarchos> no way, what is it ?
[19:51:00] <jayrulez> it's an abstraction layer used in genode and l4re that allows them to run unmodified linux drivers
[19:51:12] <jayrulez> I tink they have a freebsd implementation also
[19:51:42] <jayrulez> If haiku implements it, it would have access to a wide range of linux drivers
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[19:53:43] <jayrulez> think*. my "h" key is failing
[19:57:33] <Anarchos> jayrulez i prefer to get native drivers than ported ones...
[20:00:19] <mrsun> rather have ported ones and maybe get native ones later then have no drivers at all :P
[20:02:10] <Anarchos> mrsun well it is another point of view which seems clever too
[20:02:15] <kag_anil> where is status_t defined ?? i mean which header file...
[20:03:29] <Anarchos> kag_anil you can compile with --save-temps and look the .ii file
[20:04:55] <kag_anil> i mean this should be a standard typedef, so any guess where i can find it.. without compilation??
[20:05:03] <jayrulez> I too would prefer native drivers, but until they are available, it would be nice to have lots of working drivers for commodity hardware
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[20:06:48] <pdziepak> kag_anil: http://haiku.it.su.se:8180/source/search?q=&defs=status_t
[20:07:25] <Carbamide> jayrulez: I just had a discussion with some friends about why the quality of Windows Phone 7 apps aren't on par with iOS.  (I'm an iOS dev by trade)
[20:07:40] <kag_anil> thanks... i forgot about the OpenGrok link...
[20:07:53] <Carbamide> jayrulez: We came to the conclusion that it has to do with the dev tools.  Apple makes it dead easy to pick up and start using their dev tools.
[20:08:06] <Carbamide> jayrulez: IDE is key.  BeIDE is… lacking
[20:08:32] <Carbamide> (re: your comment at 12:30)
[20:09:07] <Cian> BeIDE isn't even an option realistically anymore
[20:09:50] <Cian> seeing as it belongs to, at this stage, probably Freescale Semi; is 11 years old; and doesn't run quite right on Haiku
[20:10:10] <jayrulez> Carbamide: agreed, Haiku needs an "IDE"
[20:11:48] <Anarchos> jayrulez eclipse ?
[20:12:05] <Anarchos> jayrulez i use Paladin too but not so powerful than Eclipse, sure
[20:12:14] <jayrulez> maybe
[20:12:45] <Carbamide> Eclipse is better than a stick in the eye, but there are so. many. options.
[20:12:46] <jayrulez> an IDE for Haiku, could be what Visual studio is to windows
[20:12:56] <jayrulez> codeblocks is nice
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[20:13:25] <jayrulez> i installed qtcreator but i haven't tried it yet so I don't know how good it is
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[20:15:29] <Anarchos> jayrulez what do you use as an IDE ?
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[20:17:02] <jayrulez> I use codeblocks for c++ on linux and windows
[20:17:26] <jayrulez> i had to do a few windows specific projects in Visual studio
[20:17:42] <jayrulez> outside of that, just any text editor available
[20:17:57] <jayrulez> http://wiki.tudos.org/DDE/DDEKit this is DDEKit
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[20:30:06] <Anarchos> jayrulez how old are you ?
[20:32:35] <SMCollins> visual studio is a big deal, winowds holds onto devs becuase it has good developement tools
[20:35:47] <Carbamide> The same story hold true for OS X and iOS.  The dev tools are perfectly suited for the platform.
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[20:36:35] <jayrulez> I'll be 23 in a few months
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[20:52:49] <SMCollins> Dev tools, are a big deal. QT has some very good ones
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[20:55:38] <SMCollins> hi pulkomandy
[20:55:58] <jayrulez> SMCollins: what do u think about DDEKit?
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[20:56:25] <SMCollins> never seen it
[20:56:25] <pulkomandy> hi
[20:56:56] <SMCollins> omg tethering my phone is becoming a huge pain in the butt
[20:58:21] <Premislaus> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GKEoiC2qhcc i-box unboxing
[20:58:32] <Premislaus> sorry wrong window
[20:59:14] <CHORT> hello
[20:59:43] <CHORT> if ac97 not working how can i change it to oss ?
[21:00:04] <CHORT> opensound downloaded
[21:00:19] <SMCollins> ac97 don't work ??? thats odd, oss will crash the system most of the time
[21:00:25] <jayrulez> SMCollins: Check here http://wiki.tudos.org/DDE/DDEKit
[21:00:29] <CHORT> got no sound
[21:00:51] <CHORT> dont know if it working or not
[21:01:50] <CHORT> how can i get ac97 to work ?
[21:01:53] <SMCollins> intel chipset ?
[21:01:56] <CHORT> yup
[21:02:26] <SMCollins> ich 4 settings file is missing
[21:02:34] <SMCollins> ich
[21:03:05] <CHORT> 82801
[21:03:16] <SMCollins> yep
[21:03:24] <SMCollins> hang on a sec
[21:03:29] <CHORT> np
[21:04:16] <SMCollins> http://dev.haiku-os.org/ticket/7284
[21:04:42] <CHORT> dont have browser :)
[21:04:51] <CHORT> cant install it too
[21:05:04] <SMCollins> sure you can
[21:05:09] <CHORT> lemme check that ticket on win machine
[21:05:13] <SMCollins> goto terminal
[21:05:32] <SMCollins> installoptionalpackage webpositive
[21:05:34] <CHORT> sorry to interupt you bu i know'
[21:05:55] <CHORT> if you have some time just take a look at the forums
[21:06:17] <CHORT> i have my problems listed in support forum
[21:06:37] <CHORT> anyway ill chek that ticket
[21:07:00] <SMCollins> it has a solution for ya
[21:10:01] <CHORT> ?
[21:10:20] <SMCollins> bbl
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[21:20:26] <Hiryu> hello, anyone else having trouble building haiku in *ubuntu 12.04?
[21:21:14] <Hiryu> I think the problem is header related.. but I haven't tried building since late last week so I don't remember exactly. I just started building again just now so in 30 minutes or so I'll be able to be more specific
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[21:35:38] <Anarchos> Hiryu i still don't know how to use the build profiles...
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[21:37:09] <Hiryu> Anarchos: you mean how to specify them to jam?
[21:37:12] <pulkomandy> Anarchos: just read UserBuildConfig.readMe ?
[21:37:16] <Hiryu> btw, this all worked with *ubuntu 11.10
[21:37:25] <Anarchos> pulkomandy you're so trivial you know :)
[21:37:42] <pulkomandy> well, if there are more specific questions we can help, as well :)
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[21:37:59] <pulkomandy> Hiryu: is 12.04 out already ? I guess it was not too well tested yet
[21:38:14] <Hiryu> there also seems to be race conditions in the build process where -jn (where n > 1) can cause failures...
[21:38:37] <Hiryu> pulkomandy: beta, but seems pretty stable. I like it better than 11.10 by far.
[21:38:37] <pulkomandy> yes
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[21:39:00] <Hiryu> 11.10 is the worst release I've used yet
[21:39:10] <Hiryu> I think 12.04 better than 11.04 too
[21:39:15] <Hiryu> think = like
[21:39:21] <pulkomandy> the build system of Haiku is quite messy, -jn is likely to create problems (mainly in bash part, but not only)
[21:39:21] <Hiryu> not sure why I typed "think"
[21:39:32] <kag_anil> what are the next steps after the proposal for GSOC is submitted??
[21:39:55] <Hiryu> pulkomandy: I try with j 1st, and when it fails, do the rest without j. jam, like it's counterpart of make, can figure out what hasn't been built it seems
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[21:40:54] <pulkomandy> kag_anil: show us you're working on it :)
[21:41:13] <kag_anil> kk and anything more...
[21:41:20] <pulkomandy> the mentors are currently reviewing the proposals, we watch for what the students do to see who's more motivated and skilled
[21:42:05] <pulkomandy> Hiryu: actually, we miss some dependancies declarations in the buildfiles, and there are some tricky parts with almost circular stuff
[21:42:10] <kag_anil> hmm...
[21:43:17] <kag_anil> i need to learn some network programming, can u suggest me some tutorial?? i need tutorials which start with some simple codes rather than explaining only about the structs??
[21:44:27] <jua_> this one's a good introduction regarding berkley socket programming: http://beej.us/guide/bgnet/output/html/singlepage/bgnet.html
[21:45:38] <Hiryu> I've done some network programming with the bsd socket api
[21:45:44] <Hiryu> but not for a very long time
[21:46:02] <Hiryu> it wasn't too bad though... but I was already familiar with read(2), open(2), and write(2), etc
[21:46:47] <kag_anil> hmm.. i m familiar with low level system calls...
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[21:47:12] <BitPuffin> Good day
[21:49:57] <pulkomandy> kag_anil: in Haiku you can use BSD sockets (which is just a little more than open/read/write) or the Network Kit which is a bit higher level
[21:50:26] <kag_anil> jua_ : may be this is nice or i have not read this book sincerely but is there any online tutorial which teaches network programming starting with some snippets of code & then explaining why they are used??
[21:51:22] <Hiryu> pulkomandy: I figured be/haiku offered a bsd socket api and something higher level
[21:51:33] <Hiryu> I think be itself had an imcomplete bsd socket api
[21:51:39] <Hiryu> select(2) was mising I think?
[21:51:58] <pulkomandy> in BeOS sockets were handled in userland, so they are not file descriptors
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[21:52:09] <jua_> kag_anil, if you look at the docs in the link, after some introduction text, it gets to code examples quickly
[21:52:14] <pulkomandy> so you can't use read,write (need to use recv,send), no select, no poll, etc
[21:52:32] <pulkomandy> this was fixed with the unofficial "bone" release after R5
[21:53:17] <Hiryu> yes, my understanding is that bone made things more posix compliant
[21:53:39] <Hiryu> I tried bone once... and it made be unbootable... I apparently had too much physical ram for bone
[21:53:40] <BitPuffin> seriously. Wtf is up with David at wolfire
[21:53:49] <BitPuffin> he is the jesus of game programming
[21:53:56] <pulkomandy> bone was more stable
[21:54:04] <Hiryu> I heard it was more stable too
[21:54:07] <pulkomandy> but in the later days you needed patches to run anything anyway
[21:54:12] <Hiryu> but I think it didn't work with morethan 512 memory or something
[21:54:22] <pulkomandy> (more than 1GB RAM not supported, CPUs with SSE2 not supported, ...)
[21:54:27] <Hiryu> I remember r5 had issues with more than 64MB of memory
[21:54:34] <Hiryu> like the installer would crash on me beforeit would finish
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[21:54:45] <Hiryu> there was a setting you could change to fix that AFTER you got it installed
[21:54:49] <kag_anil> do bsd sockets differ from linux ones
[21:54:57] <pulkomandy> kag_anil: it's the same
[21:54:57] <Hiryu> so I figured out I could install PE, fix the setting, then use PE to install Pro
[21:55:01] <Hiryu> and then fix the setting in pro
[21:55:16] <Hiryu> (I have the official pro cd)
[21:55:23] <Hiryu> I think I still have it anyway
[21:55:23] <pulkomandy> Hiryu: mh, I don't think remember was a limit at 64M
[21:55:31] <Hiryu> it had something to do with a paging setting
[21:55:43] <Hiryu> like the default was 8192, and you had to raise it to 16384
[21:55:51] <Hiryu> something weird like that
[21:55:56] <pulkomandy> anyway, I still have a "DevEd" install on one computer here, with 1.5GB of RAM and an unsupported Athlon XP CPU (and the matching patches)
[21:55:58] <pulkomandy> works ok
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[21:56:21] <Hiryu> and I'm not sure what "paging" specifically meant in that context... maybe it was to set how much memory BeOS paged out to disk?
[21:56:33] <Hiryu> pulkomandy: it wasn't an intentional limit
[21:56:43] <Hiryu> it just caused bad stability issues
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[21:57:06] <Hiryu> and the installer would just take me into kernel debugging land before installation could complete
[21:57:14] <pulkomandy> well, maybe I started using BeOS after all of this was sorted out :)
[21:57:20] <Hiryu> but it worked on other computers for some reason that I tried it on.. and finally I read something like on betips
[21:57:54] <Hiryu> fortunately, I already had a strong linux background, so none of this intimidated me... it was simply irritating
[21:59:53] <Hiryu> I have a 5 line error to paste
[21:59:56] <Hiryu> is that too much?
[22:00:56] <pulkomandy> http://paste.debian.net ?
[22:01:08] <Hiryu> I'll use pastebin and paste even more of the messages then
[22:01:44] <Hiryu> http://pastebin.com/6Npxh7rX
[22:02:02] <Hiryu> here's the error with no context:
[22:02:07] <Hiryu>  /usr/include/x86_64-linux-gnu/bits/fcntl2.h:51:24: error: call to ‘__open_missing_mode’ declared with attribute error: open with O_CREAT in second argument needs 3 arguments
[22:02:36] <pulkomandy> mh
[22:02:44] <pulkomandy> looks like a real bug to me
[22:02:57] <pulkomandy> great that the compiler is now checking that... would have saved me some hours
[22:03:16] <Hiryu> I'm thinking a haiku bug that wasn't exposed in the previous *ubuntu, but it could be *ubuntu 12.04 too
[22:03:41] <pulkomandy> well, actually a bug in libxml source used by docbook somewhere in the buildtools
[22:03:48] <pulkomandy> not even sure why we're building this ?
[22:03:51] <kag_anil> i need to contact Mr. bonefish regarding trac ticket #8449... is there any way to do so??
[22:03:54] <Hiryu> well, I meant at a high level
[22:04:22] <pulkomandy> kag_anil: don't worry, he'll look at it when he has some time
[22:04:35] <Hiryu> pulkomandy: well then, I hope I've helped :)
[22:04:52] <pulkomandy> Hiryu: a trac ticket would be helpful
[22:05:01] <pulkomandy> sounds like this should not be too hard to fix
[22:05:05] <Hiryu> I wouldn't mind, but I don't think I have the time
[22:05:07] <kag_anil> i mean not attaching new patch as i'm stuck with the problem of ioctl()
[22:05:18] <Hiryu> in fact, I should really get back to work
[22:05:50] <kag_anil> what is the return of this function in case the call fails??
[22:06:12] <Hiryu> man ioctl..?
[22:06:25] <Hiryu> (not being snarky)
[22:06:32] <kag_anil> ioctl(fd, B_GET_GEOMETRY, &geometry)
[22:06:39] <Hiryu> ok, now i"m really going, need a little food before my meeting in 24 minutes
[22:06:40] <kag_anil> but man is not present in haiku
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[22:06:47] <Hiryu> boo, it should be
[22:07:03] <hamishm> it's present on Google though :)
[22:07:08] <kag_anil> yups
[22:08:03] <kag_anil> sometimes u miss Google, which is the primary resource fir info :d
[22:08:14] <pulkomandy> kag_anil: looked at the be book documentation for B_GET_GEOMETRY ?
[22:09:00] <kag_anil> pulkomandy: sorry i missed that too... :(
[22:09:54] <pulkomandy> http://www.tycomsystems.com/beos/ABeBook/Drivers/kernelAPI.html
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[22:11:22] <kag_anil> pulkomandy: which version of be book is this?? looks nice
[22:11:48] <pulkomandy> no idea, that's what google has found
[22:12:31] <kag_anil> kk
[22:13:13] <pulkomandy> the extra notes at the bottom of the mage might be useful, anyway
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[22:14:45] <Cian> kag_anil its "the annotated be book" that used to be on one of the old BeOS news sites
[22:15:07] <kag_anil> kk
[22:15:39] <Anarchos> Cian it reminds me that something crucial is missing on the be book
[22:15:46] <Anarchos> kag_anil and regarding networking
[22:16:02] <Anarchos> I mean : the figures missing in the chapter "The Network Kit"
[22:16:19] <Anarchos> those can be found on a R4.5 or R4 CDRom of beos
[22:17:31] <pulkomandy> we are not allowed to edit the be book :(
[22:18:48] <Anarchos> pulkomandy even to correct missing figures with the original beos ones ??
[22:19:13] <pulkomandy> yes, the licence is BY/NC/ND, so we can't change anything
[22:19:21] <pulkomandy> that's why we are writing the Haiku book insteas
[22:19:32] <Anarchos> pulkomandy oh ok
[22:19:53] <Anarchos> pulkomandy and btw, my own website is dead cause i switched from sfr to free
[22:20:10] <jua_> the Haiku book needs a layout more like the bebook, which is much more clear IMO
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[22:24:05] <pulkomandy> it's quite close already ?
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[22:25:25] <jua_> http://api.haiku-os.org/classBString.html   ... if you scroll down a bit to the detailed method descriptions, it's a bit hard to differentiate the methods IMO...
[22:25:42] <jua_> but maybe that's just me :)
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[22:48:08] <Skipp_OSX> jua_, yeah, if only doxygen would accept my patches...
[22:48:24] <pulkomandy> any news on that side btw ?
[22:49:41] <Skipp_OSX> pulkomandy, I really have to email again, I have a ticket with my patches
[22:49:48] <Skipp_OSX> but then nothing happened
[22:49:55] <Skipp_OSX> he said he liked the changes though
[22:50:27] <Anarchos> hmmm copying from a CD directly to a usb mobile phone seems to crash haiku pretty easily.....
[22:52:06] <Skipp_OSX> here it is: https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=663949
[22:53:39] <Skipp_OSX> coding style is a little different than Haiku :)
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[22:57:51] <Skipp_OSX> We should move away from doxygen... my changes are really patching over poor design choices. Making a not-ugly doxygen document is really tough,  a custom solution could be made that would be much nicer
[22:58:47] <Skipp_OSX> I'd really like even more control like grouping related methods the way the Haiku book does
[22:58:50] <Skipp_OSX> err BeBook
[22:59:13] <pulkomandy> wouldn't \ingroup applied on methods help for that ?
[22:59:30] <Skipp_OSX> pulkomandy, only in the top table, not the detailed description
[22:59:37] <pulkomandy> well... not motivated to mess up with doxygen today :)
[22:59:49] <Skipp_OSX> pulkomandy, no, me neither
[23:00:00] <pulkomandy> at work we use... openoffice... so what we have for Haiku looks quite ok :)
[23:00:04] <Skipp_OSX> I am just saying that we should think about moving to something else eventually
[23:01:38] <Skipp_OSX> but I've been thinking of forking for a while so I can make more radical changes
[23:02:48] <Skipp_OSX> If I were to get rid of all the stuff that we don't need like VHDL support for instance, the design would be much simpler and I could focus on the places we actually care about.
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[23:05:35] <pulkomandy> well, that may not be good for other open source projects
[23:05:42] <pulkomandy> see what happened to jam...
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[23:07:59] <Skipp_OSX> pulkomandy, forking in most instances has consequences. In this case it really doesn't. The documentation is an isolated feature.
[23:08:26] <pulkomandy> they always say that... :)
[23:09:02] <pulkomandy> mh... this 1.2GB disk filled faster than I expected :/
[23:09:03] <Skipp_OSX> How about this, I can't get my patches in despite Herculean efforts, so I'm forking
[23:09:23] <pulkomandy> well, it's ok to have some patches around (we do that for trac)
[23:09:41] <pulkomandy> but make it clear what's changed so it can be kept in sync with mainline development
[23:09:46] <Skipp_OSX> What I am thinking would not be a patch... it would be a major break
[23:10:16] <Skipp_OSX> I'd rip out 90% of the code.
[23:10:16] <Skipp_OSX> that's a big patch :)
[23:10:26] <Skipp_OSX> well, maybe 80%
[23:11:18] <Skipp_OSX> Latex support, gone, VHDL support, gone, Objective-C support, gone, PHP support, gone, Java, gone, most of the config options, gone
[23:11:38] <Skipp_OSX> Manpage support, wtf? gone. RTF support, gone
[23:12:06] <Skipp_OSX> Stupid formatting bugs I can't fix because the styles are baked into the C++ instead of using CSS gone.
[23:12:11] <pulkomandy> getting it mainline always helps as soon as other projects start picking it up
[23:12:36] <Anarchos> Skipp_OSX i can't let you tell that Latex support is gone
[23:12:36] <pulkomandy> not sure how many VHDL projects use Doxygen, and who generates rtf, however...
[23:12:43] <Anarchos> Skipp_OSX cause i ported texlive :)
[23:12:55] <Skipp_OSX> Anarchos, use doxygen for that
[23:13:10] <Skipp_OSX> This is a mean lean, haiku book making machine
[23:13:17] <Anarchos> Skipp_OSX oh i just read the last part, i thought you were speaking about haiku itself !
[23:14:09] <Skipp_OSX> Anarchos, no, I am talking about forking Doxygen and ripping out all the parts we don't need
[23:14:32] <Skipp_OSX> Anarchos, and then building some nice stuff on top, and building a nicer version of the Haiku Book from it.
[23:17:04] <Skipp_OSX> pulkomandy, if you are going to try and defend Latex support in doxygen, don't. If you see the Latex documents it makes you woudn't defend it :)
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[23:27:33] * Anarchos compiled with success the lesstif llibrary (Motif clone)
[23:28:02] * Anarchos is compiling the CAD chain tool "alliance" in order to get a cpu design tool....
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[23:28:36] <jstressman> http://www.geek.com/articles/chips/raspberry-pi-passes-ce-and-fcc-regulations-2012049/
[23:28:40] <jstressman> everyone see that yet? :)
[23:30:55] <Anarchos> jstressman wow impressively small !!
[23:31:16] <jstressman> yeah :D I'd love to get one, and just might at that price!
[23:31:37] <jstressman> might be good motivation to get people chipping away at the ARM port some more.
[23:33:40] <jstressman> http://www.raspberrypi.org/faqs
[23:33:45] <jstressman> lots of specs etc there.
[23:33:59] <jstressman> seriously... $35 for a full little computer. wow.
[23:34:25] <jstressman> "The SoC is a Broadcom BCM2835. This contains an ARM1176JZFS, with floating point, running at 700Mhz, and a Videocore 4 GPU."
[23:34:34] <jstressman> "The GPU is capable of BluRay quality playback, using H.264 at 40MBits/s."
[23:34:40] <Anarchos> jstressman and with alliance i am compiling right now, you'll be able to design your own processor chip :)
[23:34:42] <jstressman> "It has a fast 3D core accessed using the supplied OpenGL ES2.0 and OpenVG libraries."
[23:36:18] <jstressman> interesting comparison: "Overall real world performance is something like a 300MHz Pentium 2, only with much, much swankier graphics."
[23:37:07] <pulkomandy> jstressman: ... and haiku still has no gfx acceleration
[23:37:13] <pulkomandy> not sure that will look good :)
[23:37:32] <scgtrp> pfft, it'll look great as long as you don't do anything that changes the image on the screen
[23:37:39] <pulkomandy> :)
[23:37:51] <jstressman> that's being worked on right now though isn't it?
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[23:38:01] <jstressman> both acceleration and compositing etc?
[23:38:32] <jstressman> either way, I might just pick one up. :)
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[23:43:00] <Anarchos> how to rename a whole bunch of files at once ?
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   April 9, 2012  
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