November 6, 2009 
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November 6, 2009 [00:08:08] *** wildur has joined #Haiku[00:10:25] *** StreaK|ON has quit IRC[00:11:15] *** togermano has joined #haiku[00:11:26] <togermano> is the r1 gcc2 or gcc4[00:11:50] <cb88> gcc2hybrid[00:12:01] <togermano> thanks[00:12:09] <togermano> do you ever use the nightly builds?[00:12:11] <cb88> meaning it runs as gcc2 plus gcc4 libraies[00:12:15] <cb88> i build from svn[00:12:27] <cb88> saves be dialup bandwidth[00:12:38] <cb88> saves me ... bandwidth[00:13:17] *** redblue has joined #haiku[00:13:22] *** ukev has quit IRC[00:13:32] <cb88> svn seems a bit flakey on with qemu -smp 4 or anything greater than 1[00:14:43] <togermano> would gcc4 build be faster?[00:15:05] <togermano> would gcc 4 be faster[00:15:30] *** kokito has joined #haiku[00:15:35] *** Hugen_ has quit IRC[00:15:35] <kokito> howdy[00:15:41] *** hisoka999 has quit IRC[00:15:53] <kokito> hi fyysik! long time no see![00:17:02] <togermano> whats the benefits over the gcc4 hybrid vs ggc2 hybrid[00:17:59] <cb88> togermano: at the moment no[00:18:19] *** Xbertl has quit IRC[00:18:23] <cb88> togermano: gcc4 can compile newer software ... for example webkit and QT[00:18:51] <togermano> is there a webkit browser yet?[00:19:42] <cb88> yes search on haikuware for qt demo browser or arora[00:20:01] <cb88> its quite fast.... locks up for me if I right click on a link though[00:20:07] <cb88> otherwise its greate[00:20:14] <togermano> can the gcc2 + 4 hybrid run it[00:20:34] <cb88> should run it fine... just unzip it in /boot[00:21:55] <togermano> would u run the gcc 4 +2 over that other[00:22:26] <mmadia> gcc2 + 4 is the official release style.[00:22:53] <togermano> so stick with that for now?[00:23:26] *** Ingenu has quit IRC[00:23:31] <DraX> just make sure if you ever intend to compile anything ever go setgcc gcc4[00:23:32] <mmadia> yes. unless you have a legitimate reason for running something else.[00:24:29] <togermano> okay thanks for sorting my confusion out[00:24:38] *** korli has quit IRC[00:24:48] <togermano> if i download the nightly image i can just overwrite the files in haiku write?[00:24:54] <togermano> overwrite the r1 ones[00:25:59] <togermano> alpha1s[00:26:10] <mmadia> noo... Haiku doesn't support live updating.[00:26:19] <togermano> aww[00:26:21] <togermano> r5 did :P[00:27:18] <togermano> so should I move it to my windows partition[00:27:33] *** Megaf_ has joined #Haiku[00:27:37] <togermano> use the alpha 1 cd too boot up in live mode then monut the image and replace the files on my haiku partition?[00:28:29] <mmadia> personally, i re-initialize the partition before installing.[00:28:55] <cb88> mmadia: would it be possible to have an alternate kernel location and have the bootloader detect and run the updated kernel then update the system files as well at boot time?[00:30:08] <togermano> i thought u can replace files while they were open in beos[00:30:11] <togermano> haiku does'nt have it yet[00:30:13] <togermano> i htat the problem?[00:30:19] <mmadia> that's beyond me, cb88.[00:30:29] <cb88> me too mostly for now[00:31:30] <togermano> the qt demo is so much better then firefox thank u[00:31:49] <CIA-46> kirilla * r33910 /haiku/trunk/src/preferences/backgrounds/ (8 files): Partial clean-up.[00:33:08] <togermano> though i just noticed i cant login into facebook with it[00:33:10] *** LinuxKeitaro has joined #haiku[00:33:56] <togermano> is cookie suppot not there yet?[00:34:50] *** miqlas has joined #haiku[00:35:04] <kirilla> togermano: Haiku implements lazy loading of executables, meaning that only part of running executables may be in memory.. this is good for performance, but if those executables get overwritten (like when overwriting the entire system) bad things can happen[00:35:48] <kirilla> (when the exe parts in memory and the new parts on disk don't match any more)[00:36:24] <HeTo> you could rm the file first before writing a new one if Haiku behaves like Unix[00:37:26] <kirilla> heh :)[00:37:27] <HeTo> that should have everyone who doesn't reopen the file access the old file, while every new open gets the new file, and I'd assume the same thing should happen with mmap[00:37:51] <HeTo> and when everyone closes the old file, the space on hard drive gets freed[00:38:03] <kirilla> I wonder how Haiku would respond to having system removed completely[00:38:47] <HeTo> well, maybe you should do that only to the kernel executable and the system drivers, one at a time[00:39:04] <HeTo> then on reboot load a static executable that replaces libraries and servers, as was suggested[00:39:08] *** Megaf__ has joined #Haiku[00:39:35] <kirilla> a bootkit[00:39:54] <kirilla> :P[00:40:19] <HeTo> I wonder how easy it would be to add a progress bar and some text to the boot screen in the middle of the boot process[00:40:41] <HeTo> so that you could so the update progress and advice the user not to turn off the computer[00:40:53] <HeTo> s/so the/show the/[00:41:27] <kirilla> Couldn't it prepared on disk before-hand, and then just a set of dirs renamed?[00:41:59] <kirilla> moving the old ones out of place, and the new ones in place[00:43:31] <kirilla> done by the kernel very early[00:44:17] <HeTo> preferably outside of the kernel[00:44:36] <kirilla> It would be very simple though.[00:45:51] <kirilla> prep system with a new Haiku, reboot and have the kernel shuffle a few directories and that's all. Most of the work would be done in userland, before and after that reboot[00:45:54] <HeTo> maybe something like if [ -x /boot/system/updater ]; then mv /boot/system/updater /boot/system-updater && exec /boot/system-updater; fi in the beginning of Bootscript[00:46:30] <HeTo> of course, the updater would move or remove itself and relaunch Bootscript once it finishes[00:46:59] <DraX> anyone tried haiku on a really recent thinkpad?[00:47:17] *** Megaf__ has quit IRC[00:47:17] *** Megaf_ has quit IRC[00:47:27] <JonathanThompson> How recent are you talking about, DraX ? I'm guessing my 800 Mhz P3 doesn't qualify ;)[00:47:39] <JonathanThompson> (It's still an IBM branded thinkPad, though!) :P[00:47:50] <kirilla> but what if the update process is long-ish?.. I'd rather not have that happen at boot-up[00:47:54] <DraX> like, i ordered a t400s[00:48:03] *** togermano has quit IRC[00:48:07] <DraX> so, hasn't even arrived yet recent[00:48:33] <JonathanThompson> kirilla: if all directories are moved before kernel reboot and new ones put in place, I don't see why it'd take long.[00:50:21] <kirilla> true.. I was perhaps reading more into HeTo's suggested system-updater than what he intended[00:51:32] <JonathanThompson> Just read a Craig's List post for a company wanting unpaid interns for a stealth startup :P[00:51:38] <HeTo> actually, again if Haiku acts like Unix, any file handles point to the same file even if the file gets moved, so you wouldn't need to do anything at bootup[00:52:12] <JonathanThompson> I know BeOS works that way, according to the Be Book.[00:52:32] *** fyysik has quit IRC[00:52:33] <HeTo> you could just unpack everything at system.new, then mv system system.old && mv system.new system and then reboot[00:52:36] <JonathanThompson> Haiku should as well, if they're going to seriously do things in a compatible way: otherwise, there may be software that fails on that being different.[00:53:22] *** amuck_ has quit IRC[00:53:25] <JonathanThompson> Then a reboot is the simplest way to restart, and it'd be a nice feature to add a "Reboot into last known-good version" in the safe mode menu.[00:53:28] <DraX> i think it's actually harder to implement it where file access follows edits/moves[00:53:36] <DraX> then it is to just keep the same file handle[00:53:56] <JonathanThompson> Well, in BeOS, the file handle tracked where things were, essentially.[00:55:16] <JonathanThompson> Furthermore, if you want live updating, it'd be nice to have a special lock to keep the system from loading up an old binary with a new binary at the same time, while things are in transition.[00:55:47] <JonathanThompson> Say, for example, other things are going on in the system that causes something to be loaded into the kernel space (or even user space) of the OS itself that wasn't already loaded.[00:55:56] <cb88> actually the kernel should be able to do it I would think.... since at the end of the boot haiku is still running only with the FS unmounted supposedly or does it shut down other things?[00:55:59] <JonathanThompson> After all, Haiku supports loadable modules.[00:56:38] <HeTo> well, I thought you'd better just terminate every app and server the updater doesn't absolutely need[00:56:46] <JonathanThompson> True.[00:57:10] <HeTo> although you would still have the problem of the user suddenly plugging in some hardware[00:57:26] *** Barrett has quit IRC[00:57:35] <JonathanThompson> Hence the need for some kind of system wide barrier.[00:57:47] <JonathanThompson> Disable such probing of things while doing the transition.[00:58:23] <HeTo> then again, if the new driver is incompatible with the current kernel, the driver load should fail gracefully[00:58:37] <JonathanThompson> A way to make the kernel truly replaceable, hot-swapped would be to incorporate a method for the kernel to serialize all the important structures.[00:59:20] <JonathanThompson> So, serialize out all the things that couldn't be readily terminated, and then load up the kernel with a new serialized state: this could also be incorporated into sleep functionality.[00:59:22] *** fly-away has quit IRC[00:59:25] <JonathanThompson> Deep hibernate.[00:59:43] <HeTo> and if there is something that isn't taken into account and there is an incompatibility, I'd say it's the user's fault for plugging in something during such a drast transition[01:00:17] <JonathanThompson> And that's why I think having a "Last Known-good system" option on the safe mode boot menu would be a good thing.[01:01:12] *** stpere has quit IRC[01:01:50] *** michaelvo has joined #haiku[01:04:58] *** ari2-free has quit IRC[01:06:20] *** ari2-free has joined #haiku[01:06:44] *** michaelvo has quit IRC[01:08:28] *** hoelzro has quit IRC[01:08:55] *** jmelesky has quit IRC[01:10:51] *** lowdread has joined #haiku[01:14:20] *** aldeck has joined #haiku[01:14:20] *** ChanServ sets mode: +o aldeck[01:15:10] *** Sryche has quit IRC[01:20:37] <CIA-46> kirilla * r33911 /haiku/trunk/src/preferences/backgrounds/ (BackgroundsView.cpp BackgroundsView.h): Partial clean-up.[01:20:53] *** kirilla has quit IRC[01:24:39] *** michaelvo has joined #haiku[01:26:32] *** RandomInsano has joined #haiku[01:28:25] *** RandomInsano has quit IRC[01:32:18] *** miqlas has quit IRC[01:37:33] *** b0nk has joined #haiku[01:38:04] *** b0nk has left #haiku[01:41:02] *** cb88 has quit IRC[01:53:28] *** adamk_ has quit IRC[01:55:31] *** kokito has left #haiku[01:57:58] *** LeandroLuiz has quit IRC[02:09:14] *** wildur has quit IRC[02:10:36] *** oco has quit IRC[02:14:39] *** triplez has quit IRC[02:17:27] *** zvacet has joined #haiku[02:18:33] *** zvacet has quit IRC[02:26:32] *** raichoo has quit IRC[02:35:35] *** triplez has joined #haiku[02:35:36] *** thotypous has quit IRC[02:36:28] *** fengshaun__ has joined #haiku[02:36:42] *** baia has quit IRC[02:38:21] *** jmayfield has quit IRC[02:38:37] <fengshaun__> hello, I have the haiku live cd on a dvd. I was able to see the [desktop or installer] dialog with the mouse (I had to change some options in safemode). But the keyboard and mouse don't respond! (I tried both a PS2 and a wireless usb mouse).[02:38:52] <fengshaun__> Is this a know issue? I couldn't find anything about it on the web[02:41:07] <lowdread> u can use a specific place for report bugs[02:41:53] <lowdread> quit[02:41:56] *** lowdread has quit IRC[02:52:59] *** dja_ has quit IRC[02:54:47] *** michaelvo has quit IRC[02:55:49] <JonathanThompson> fengshaun__: if you've bought A1R1 on DVD and it isn't something later, perhaps that's been fixed since then, but I'm not sure. There is a bug database (TRAC) on develop.haiku-os.org, I think it is, you should look for that, and report if not.[03:01:36] *** fengshaun__ has quit IRC[03:10:15] *** xvedejas has quit IRC[03:15:27] *** xvedejas has joined #haiku[03:23:43] *** jmayfield_ has joined #haiku[03:24:00] *** aldeck has quit IRC[03:24:22] *** joeyadams has joined #haiku[03:24:36] *** jmayfield_ is now known as jmayfield[03:39:20] *** Qeos has quit IRC[03:43:43] *** SiCuTDeUx has joined #haiku[03:43:55] *** skarmiglione has joined #haiku[03:44:51] *** umccullough_w has joined #haiku[04:02:38] *** kwag has joined #haiku[04:04:11] *** kwag has quit IRC[04:14:52] *** justeco has joined #Haiku[04:20:42] *** umccullough_w has quit IRC[04:41:34] *** mmadia has quit IRC[04:44:11] *** mmadia has joined #haiku[04:54:20] *** mmadia has quit IRC[04:57:00] *** mmadia has joined #haiku[05:06:43] *** triplez has quit IRC[05:07:06] *** triplez has joined #haiku[05:08:22] *** mmadia has quit IRC[05:10:25] *** kokito has joined #haiku[05:11:31] *** mmadia has joined #haiku[05:12:28] *** mmadia has quit IRC[05:13:33] *** Al2O3 has quit IRC[05:14:05] *** Al2O3 has joined #haiku[05:14:33] *** Al2O3 has quit IRC[05:15:29] *** Al2O3 has joined #haiku[05:15:50] *** Al2O3 has quit IRC[05:16:46] *** Al2O3 has joined #haiku[05:16:52] *** xvedejas has quit IRC[05:34:07] <DraX> blubblublbub[05:35:26] <DraX> booored[05:36:55] * JonathanThompson plugs the leak in DraX with Krazy Glue[05:37:27] <DraX> blub :P[05:37:42] * JonathanThompson applies a bit more Krazy Glue[05:37:58] <DraX> bl[05:38:10] <DraX> i'm still bored :P[05:39:19] * jmayfield gotstadmit... this tornado web server stuff is pretty nice to work with[05:39:30] <DraX> jmayfield: that's because it's not twisted[05:39:39] <jmayfield> i really like twisted[05:39:43] <DraX> really?[05:39:48] <DraX> it's like i'm writing java[05:39:53] <jmayfield> i have built many large apps with it[05:40:34] <DraX> i've worked on one large app in it, which made me decide i wouldn't get near it with a ten foot pole[05:40:38] <DraX> i use asyncore instead[05:40:41] <jmayfield> java? dunno.. but i like it[05:40:58] <DraX> it doesn't feel pythonic it all, it feels like writing java[05:41:07] <DraX> terrible class proliferation[05:41:12] <jmayfield> hmm.. feels like asyncy python to me[05:41:14] <DraX> simple things take multiple classes[05:41:42] <jmayfield> i'll admit, theres a steep 'get used to it' slope[05:42:04] <DraX> i think that's called ``this is really bad, but it works pretty welll'' slope[05:42:10] <jmayfield> heh[05:42:24] <DraX> which is fine i guess[05:42:28] <jmayfield> regardless.. for my current needs tornado is serving very well[05:42:44] <DraX> i won't pretend that asyncore implements the communication aspect as well as twisted[05:42:54] <DraX> but i think the interface to using it is much more pythonic[05:43:23] <jmayfield> last twistedish work i did was with perspective broker.[05:44:13] <DraX> i've worked on a twisted nntp client[05:46:54] *** kokito has left #haiku[05:48:06] <DraX> i don't really write that much py anymore though[05:49:17] *** adb has quit IRC[05:54:32] *** redblue has quit IRC[05:55:57] *** jmayfield_ has joined #haiku[06:03:26] *** redblue has joined #haiku[06:05:57] *** jmayfield has quit IRC[06:14:01] <DraX> ohhh[06:14:13] <DraX> any one with knowledge of memory managment and/or ELF in haiku around?[06:25:36] <DraX> unexecelf is using sbrk(0) which seems to be unsupported on haiku[06:28:42] *** Andrius has joined #haiku[06:51:03] *** arjen has joined #haiku[06:51:07] *** arjen has quit IRC[06:51:35] <geist> haha, sbrk()[06:51:38] <geist> that still exists?[06:51:38] *** triplez_ has joined #haiku[06:52:51] <DraX> geist: sadly yes[06:53:25] <DraX> though honestly, emascs is full of things that shouldn't still exist[06:53:39] <DraX> like it actually has some support for not using void*[06:54:57] *** triplez has quit IRC[06:54:57] *** triplez_ is now known as triplez[06:59:44] *** triplez_ has joined #haiku[06:59:59] *** SiCuTDeUx has quit IRC[07:04:56] *** joeyadams has quit IRC[07:07:15] *** triplez has quit IRC[07:07:16] *** triplez_ is now known as triplez[07:10:53] *** ddavid123 has joined #haiku[07:11:30] <ddavid123> Changes has been made in the latest nightly build![07:12:00] <ddavid123> The cpu monitor does not go crazy just when I move my cursor around![07:12:20] <ddavid123> not eating many cpu cycles[07:12:27] <JonathanThompson> I'm making a wild guess that makes you very happy :)[07:12:30] <ddavid123> :)[07:12:41] <ddavid123> yea, it does.[07:12:46] <ddavid123> It's Progress![07:15:32] <ddavid123> I have found a new bug, but I think everyone knows about it though.[07:15:57] <ddavid123> Tried to change the background, and got a white screen of death. lol[07:16:08] <JonathanThompson> Progress :P[07:16:33] <ddavid123> yea, one bug squashed, two more created![07:16:48] <JonathanThompson> Progress along the feature/bug/featurebug continuum :P[07:18:02] <ddavid123> I lived with Windows 98 SE, XP and a day of Vista, so I am used to this sort of thing[07:18:45] <ddavid123> That was a "stable" mature OS, Haiku is still unstable, "Alpha"[07:19:21] <ddavid123> I expect Haiku to be stable and bug free when it reaches 1.0[07:19:56] * JonathanThompson laughs heartily[07:20:01] <ddavid123> most of Windows' features are actually bugs! lol[07:20:08] <JonathanThompson> It may be rather stable, but.... bug-free?[07:20:24] <JonathanThompson> You're a mortal, right, ddavid123 ?[07:20:43] <ddavid123> what OS are you talking about?[07:21:07] <ddavid123> As bug free as it can get[07:21:19] <JonathanThompson> Any OS, because you'll be dead before it's truly bug-free :)[07:21:34] <JonathanThompson> (Especially if it's an all-volunteer effort)[07:22:24] <ddavid123> Just stop all new feature development and work on bug fix only. In 10 years, windows will be bug free for sure, but will be running only on paperweights![07:22:30] *** markos_ has quit IRC[07:22:32] <JonathanThompson> However, with how BeOS punted with checking for error conditions (or not!) it shouldn't be too impossible to make it more stable than BeOS ever was when it hit the wall.[07:22:57] <JonathanThompson> When BeOS hits the wall, it truly goes splat.[07:23:06] <ddavid123> lol[07:23:35] *** _arjen_ has joined #haiku[07:23:51] <JonathanThompson> One fun one: if you exhaust the token space in the AppServer for BViews, it spits out a debugger error message stating it has run out of token space, and will crash now.[07:23:52] <ddavid123> at least with Haiku, those who love BE OS will always feel at home[07:24:06] <JonathanThompson> Of course, it can't truly put that out fully, because... it ran out of BViews.[07:24:38] <JonathanThompson> And it spits out that debugger error message rather than returning any sort of error code :P[07:24:41] <ddavid123> to have a great os and community, and have it taken away, must have been sad![07:24:46] <JonathanThompson> Ok, granted: most people won't hit that one.[07:24:59] <JonathanThompson> But, the thread limit problem? I hit that all the time![07:25:39] <JonathanThompson> If I didn't hit it too quickly, and didn't accidentally try to open a menu on something I cared much about, I could just leave that one BWindow stuck in a dead zombie-like state, until I rebooted.[07:25:56] <JonathanThompson> But, things weren't always so nice, with just that left there, and that menu stuck open :P[07:26:59] <JonathanThompson> And, of course: the detail that BeOS has a fixed total system space for messages amongst the entire system, and if you manage to fill that up, we're talking major splat/reboot.[07:27:36] <JonathanThompson> You see, IIRC, the kernel itself uses the same messaging system to transport critical things.[07:27:40] <JonathanThompson> At least, in BeOS.[07:27:51] <ddavid123> two last questions. First, how many people are working on Haiku. Second, is there any sense when Alpha 2 will be released?[07:27:55] <JonathanThompson> (I've not investigated such things in Haiku)[07:28:11] <ddavid123> or is it a feature based release cycle[07:28:24] <JonathanThompson> Not sure about either one, but for the second one, I'd suggest doing a search for Alpha 2 criteria on the haiku-os site.[07:28:35] <ddavid123> ok[07:28:42] <JonathanThompson> Alpha1R1 had specific bugs/features must be fixed criteria.[07:29:04] <ddavid123> ok, I will check now[07:29:11] <ddavid123> later[07:29:18] <JonathanThompson> And of course, there's that feature/bug/featurebug continuum: all specs are subject to change as new bugs are added to the system :P[07:29:19] *** ddavid123 has quit IRC[07:34:07] *** knottnhupfer has joined #haiku[07:50:06] *** HaikuBot has joined #haiku[07:54:07] *** Test12312 has joined #haiku[07:59:22] *** KuroShu has joined #haiku[07:59:26] <KuroShu> hello[07:59:34] <KuroShu> is this HAIKU IRC?[07:59:55] <JonathanThompson> Well, it's freenode.net irc, but the #Haiku channel, yes, for the OS ;)[08:00:13] <JonathanThompson> (You ARE here for the OS, and not the poetry, right?)[08:00:18] *** markos_ has joined #haiku[08:00:34] <KuroShu> yea yes! OS[08:01:53] <KuroShu> just installed the APLHA! on SONY LAPTOP Pentium M 1.49Ghz 512MB Ram Install went well, running Smooth![08:03:48] *** Test12312 has quit IRC[08:04:56] <KuroShu> I enjoy the simplicity of this OS[08:05:33] <KuroShu> what an OS should be! Simple Clean, LightWeight Usable on any hardware... old or new[08:05:54] <KuroShu> am i speaking to all or pming?[08:06:01] <KuroShu> anyone here?[08:06:12] *** justeco has quit IRC[08:06:41] <geist> yes[08:06:44] <KuroShu> =)[08:07:00] <KuroShu> anyone know of a working WebBased IRC?[08:07:31] <KuroShu> first time using this, it be nice to access this from anywhere[08:10:54] * JonathanThompson isn't here, but is Memorex :P[08:11:44] <JonathanThompson> I had to ask about whether or not you were here for the poetry: every so often, KuroShu, people pop in here, post Haikus, thinking this channel is for poetry :P[08:12:24] <JonathanThompson> They're often disappointed when they discover they've made a wrong turn somewhere online :D[08:12:26] <KuroShu> lol yea i guessed that[08:12:33] <KuroShu> cuz of the name[08:12:34] <KuroShu> its cool[08:12:42] <KuroShu> are you the Admin?[08:12:45] <KuroShu> of the channel[08:12:51] <JonathanThompson> No, not at all.[08:12:59] <KuroShu> ah[08:13:05] *** netstar_ has joined #Haiku[08:13:27] <JonathanThompson> I'm just someone on the west coast of the US that should be going to bed soon :P[08:15:18] <DraX> meh[08:16:12] *** AlienSoldier has quit IRC[08:17:24] <DraX> JonathanThompson: hack instead of sleep[08:21:01] <KuroShu> haha[08:21:06] <KuroShu> yea me too[08:21:07] <KuroShu> bla[08:21:22] <KuroShu> yea im out! well nice to Virtual meet ya Jonathan i'll try to get on again soon[08:21:26] <KuroShu> l8er![08:21:29] <KuroShu> gnight![08:21:34] *** KuroShu has quit IRC[08:34:26] *** netstar_ has quit IRC[08:44:59] *** jmayfield_ has quit IRC[08:46:20] *** Zaranthos has quit IRC[08:48:31] *** Zaranthos has joined #Haiku[08:49:33] *** michail has joined #haiku[08:50:30] *** TheNerd_LT has joined #haiku[09:06:21] *** TheNerd has quit IRC[09:14:19] *** doc has joined #haiku[09:14:47] *** andreas_dr has joined #haiku[09:31:41] *** DocPheniX has quit IRC[09:31:42] *** joshc has joined #haiku[09:36:47] *** sprma has joined #haiku[09:38:33] <CIA-46> axeld * r33912 /haiku/trunk/src/apps/debugger/ (2 files in 2 dirs): * Fixed GCC2 build, and a warning that should have fired in GCC4 as well.[09:41:47] *** OmniMancer1 has joined #haiku[09:45:54] *** OmniMancer has quit IRC[09:48:54] *** Qeos has joined #haiku[09:50:27] *** andreas_dr has quit IRC[09:53:47] *** triplez has quit IRC[09:58:12] *** knottnhupfer has quit IRC[10:00:17] *** Ingenu has joined #Haiku[10:03:36] *** triplez has joined #haiku[10:11:28] *** genkie has joined #haiku[10:12:02] *** markos_ has quit IRC[10:12:33] *** markos_ has joined #haiku[10:23:57] *** skarmiglione has left #haiku[10:31:34] *** markos_ has quit IRC[10:34:20] *** Hugen_ has joined #haiku[10:40:02] *** triplez has quit IRC[10:41:51] *** TheNerd_LT has quit IRC[10:46:04] *** raichoo has joined #haiku[10:47:51] *** kitallis has joined #haiku[10:49:16] *** kitallis has quit IRC[10:56:11] *** kitallis has joined #haiku[10:57:30] *** waveshaper has joined #haiku[11:01:22] *** genkie has quit 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#haiku[14:12:07] *** mmadia has quit IRC[14:13:08] *** mmadia has joined #haiku[14:13:32] *** Colin_Finck has joined #haiku[14:15:45] *** Guest9076 is now known as _arjen_[14:17:05] *** _arjen_ has quit IRC[14:20:04] *** _arjen_ has joined #haiku[14:22:07] *** brobostigon has quit IRC[14:22:22] *** GeneralMaximus has joined #haiku[14:22:26] <GeneralMaximus> evening :)[14:22:38] *** brobostigon has joined #haiku[14:22:45] *** adb has joined #haiku[14:36:34] *** mmu_Alchimie has quit IRC[14:37:28] *** raichoo has joined #haiku[14:47:12] *** Hugen_ has quit IRC[14:47:17] *** raichoo has quit IRC[14:47:51] *** mmadia has quit IRC[14:50:21] *** aldeck has quit IRC[14:52:05] *** HaikuBot has quit IRC[14:52:43] *** HaikuBot has joined #haiku[14:54:02] *** StreaK|ON has left #haiku[14:54:34] *** dru_ has joined #haiku[14:59:24] *** aldeck has joined #haiku[14:59:24] *** ChanServ sets mode: +o aldeck[15:03:37] <markos_> @all: there's a lot of noise/flames wrt FatELF for Linux, I think the concept is great, but not for Linux, it actually fits Haiku better -imho- what do you think?[15:06:18] *** Begasus has joined #haiku[15:07:01] <Begasus> plop[15:10:09] <DDevine> markos_: Yeah I think the idea would fit haiku[15:10:57] <DDevine> Or it COULD fit haiku. Linux has gone down the repository path. FatELF would make commercial vendors more comfortable IMO>[15:11:11] <DDevine> The guy who made FatELF is a game porter.[15:12:05] <m0ns0on> DDevine, What do you mean Linux has gone down the repository path?[15:13:00] <DDevine> Well half the reason FatELF is being dismissed is because you simply don't need universal binaries when you have a repository system set up.[15:13:11] <CIA-46> zooey * r33913 /haiku/trunk/src/kits/interface/TextView.cpp:[15:13:11] <CIA-46> Implement a suggestion of Humdinger in the aftermath of #4785:[15:13:11] <CIA-46> * make word-wise navigation via cursor keys match Pe, such that it is consistent[15:13:11] <CIA-46> throughout haiku (unless some applications brew their own)[15:13:25] <m0ns0on> DDevine, Ah like that. I get it.[15:13:34] <m0ns0on> DDevine, IMO - repositories suck :)[15:13:55] <m0ns0on> DDevine, I frankly just don't get why linux users and devs love them so much.[15:14:15] *** glootech_ has joined #haiku[15:14:16] <m0ns0on> DDevine, I'm a linux user btw... still after 10 years, I don't like reporitories[15:14:24] <m0ns0on> They were fun the first year or so.[15:14:48] <HeTo> m0ns0on: because it’s the best system there currently is for keeping software up to date wrt security holes[15:14:59] <DDevine> m0ns0on: Repositories are AWESOME - but the way they work for Linux doesn't really make closed source vendors comfortable.[15:15:06] <HeTo> which doesn’t mean it’s the best system there can be, of course[15:15:28] <m0ns0on> HeTo, That might be true - but they are not the best way for users to get access to new software (latest versions).[15:15:56] <m0ns0on> HeTo, Also, if your repogods haven't provided your favourite package, you are usually in a pickle. Unless you know your way around...[15:16:17] <surrounder> rather have a repo then all kinds of "update-apps" running in the background to keep track of things[15:16:23] <DDevine> I would be extremely dissapointed if Haiku does not make use of a repository system, but I think the system should make an effort to make commercial software welcome.[15:16:29] <m0ns0on> DDevine, Yes, repos are awesome as long as you accept the menu on offer.[15:16:48] *** glootech has quit IRC[15:16:56] <m0ns0on> DDevine, I would be disappointed the other way around.[15:17:07] <m0ns0on> DDevine, Although an autoupdate system would rock.[15:17:25] <m0ns0on> DDevine, I don't want the system to update all my software at the same time. It smells of forced regression hell to me.[15:17:56] <DDevine> m0ns0on: Fair enough, when they build a repo system make sure you voice your concerns.[15:18:08] <m0ns0on> Yes[15:18:10] <DDevine> I would agree with you.[15:18:55] <m0ns0on> Something that pains me on linux is how suddenly, a regression is introduced with an update, and you end up with an app that used to work, that suddenly doesn't[15:19:08] <m0ns0on> Then you need to wait for the repogods to accept patches[15:19:19] <m0ns0on> And a long beurocratic process to complete[15:19:25] <m0ns0on> And you might get a bugfixed version.[15:19:45] <m0ns0on> Instead, you could just keep your old app[15:19:52] <m0ns0on> And update when you feel like it[15:19:57] <m0ns0on> and then you can easily downgrade[15:20:11] <m0ns0on> When using a repo, a downgrade could (on linux) make you uninstall half your software...[15:20:44] <m0ns0on> Somebody would say: but hey, downgrading could be dangerous to apps depending on that piece of sw![15:20:55] <m0ns0on> But that's because the software has been made with a repo in mind[15:21:09] <m0ns0on> As long as your OS culture revolves around repos, this kind of stuff evolves.[15:21:32] <m0ns0on> And you end up with apps depending on everything and the kitchen sink, as it's easy in a repo to have those dependencies.[15:22:21] <m0ns0on> Take Ubuntu Karmic[15:22:29] <m0ns0on> My Wifi worked perfect in Ubuntu 9.04[15:22:30] <DDevine> Ubuntu is a pile of shit.[15:22:32] <m0ns0on> 75% coverage[15:22:36] <GeneralMaximus> is something up with the Git port?[15:22:38] <m0ns0on> Then updating.[15:22:45] <GeneralMaximus> i can't push[15:22:45] <m0ns0on> Now I have 25% signal...[15:22:49] <GeneralMaximus> it just sits there :([15:23:01] <m0ns0on> But how can I download a driver for ubuntu that works?[15:23:09] <m0ns0on> Well, I can't... not without compiling and stuff[15:23:14] <m0ns0on> It is not available in the repo.[15:23:17] <m0ns0on> So I'm fxed.[15:23:27] <m0ns0on> This is repo hell :)[15:23:51] <surrounder> hmm the driver doesn't have anything todo with the repo right ?[15:24:02] <m0ns0on> Linux has evolved around repositories, and it is one of the main reasons the whole of Linux is hurting to use sometimes..[15:24:15] <m0ns0on> surrounder, The driver is in the repo in the form of the kernel package.[15:24:34] <m0ns0on> surrounder, it is a kernel regression.[15:24:49] <DDevine> m0ns0on: Just because Ubuntu (well, not just Ubuntu) is silly does not mean that Haiku has to be equally silly.[15:24:58] <m0ns0on> DDevine, Well, no it doesn't[15:25:17] <m0ns0on> DDevine, But absence of proof isn't proof of absence.[15:25:18] <m0ns0on> :)[15:25:27] <DDevine> I would like to think that in our package management system this type of thing would be taken care of, or at least provide the easy-to-use tools to deal with it.[15:25:35] <m0ns0on> Could be[15:25:44] <DDevine> like decent locking facilities, and maybe auto-compiling.[15:25:51] <m0ns0on> But *all* the linux systems are hurting from this, be it mandrake, redhat or ubuntu[15:26:05] <m0ns0on> please, no compiling.[15:26:07] <m0ns0on> That's for devs[15:26:13] <m0ns0on> I think how Apple does it is fine[15:26:16] <m0ns0on> Even Microsoft.[15:26:22] <DDevine> You haven't seen a good compile system.[15:26:24] <m0ns0on> Keep the OS updating.[15:26:35] <m0ns0on> DDevine, Yes I've seen some that might work[15:26:38] <DDevine> Microsoft does package management wrong.[15:26:39] <markos_> the good thing about fatelf is that a user would download a single binary for x86/x86_64/ARM/MIPS/PPC for a tool/game/whatever and it would be dead easy to install, and wrt waste of diskspace it might be auto-stripped on install[15:26:53] <m0ns0on> DDevine, Gentoo has a GUI for compiling apps. And I've seen other systems (think it was PC BSD?)[15:27:06] <DDevine> Have you seen Arch Linux?[15:27:12] <m0ns0on> DDevine, Yes, but I was talking about their software update, not the control panel thing.[15:27:18] <markos_> i've used linux/unix for more than 15 years and i found that the macos way is the best all arount[15:27:24] <markos_> s/arount/around[15:27:25] <DDevine> If it does not have a binary, it will just go off and compile it (no input from user required)[15:27:33] <DDevine> or you can tell it to just go off and build the latest git[15:27:35] <DDevine> no worries.[15:27:41] <markos_> arch linux is not a user-friendly linux distro[15:27:56] <DDevine> I'm not saying it is[15:28:01] <m0ns0on> DDevine, Point is, it would increase the amount of files, potentially[15:28:07] <DDevine> but the package management has some great points.[15:28:12] <m0ns0on> DDevine, Haiku is lovely in that it isn't filled with iconless files.[15:28:15] *** hisoka999 has left #haiku[15:28:20] <markos_> all package management systems have great points and bad points[15:28:26] <DDevine> m0ns0on: maybe there could be a hybrid mac-os style package management[15:28:31] *** fhein has joined #haiku[15:28:32] <markos_> the question is if haiku should go one way or the other[15:28:49] <m0ns0on> DDevine, If a system requires a robot to organize the files, it is not user friendly imo.[15:28:51] <markos_> linux has become too complicated and overly centralized[15:29:15] <DDevine> maybe there could be an OS updater, and official lists of packages and signatures that are trusted and that can alert users when a new version of a program is available.[15:29:24] * dru_ reminds the channel: ./configure;make;make install does not an installer make[15:29:35] <m0ns0on> DDevine, Linux isn't user friendly, it is system friendly. And many linux users are more like robots than users :)[15:29:39] <dru_> no matter how pretty it is wrapped in package management solutions :-)[15:29:47] *** adamk_ has quit IRC[15:29:52] <DDevine> So that way it addresses the security issues, and has most of the advantages of normal package management systems.[15:29:55] <markos_> DDevine: exactly, updating the core OS is way different than updating some 3rd party libs /apps[15:30:14] <m0ns0on> DDevine, That's what I would want.[15:30:26] <m0ns0on> DDevine, Updates from Haiku Central :) For the Haiku OS files.[15:30:35] <m0ns0on> DDevine, But please, keep away from my own installed files :)[15:31:02] *** adamk_ has joined #haiku[15:31:05] <DDevine> See, but we hit another problem.[15:31:12] <DDevine> Open source drivers would be part of the OS[15:31:16] <markos_> just one? :)[15:31:28] <DDevine> so you still run into the same driver issue you have on Linux[15:31:41] <DDevine> That's why I would want intellegent package locking.[15:32:03] <markos_> not really, and we dont have to be trigger happy with the updates[15:32:03] <m0ns0on> You could have a checklist of which updates you'd want I guess..[15:32:11] <DDevine> So that way you can say - stay away from my drivers and stay away from my apps, but update everything else.[15:32:21] <m0ns0on> Perhaps[15:32:23] <markos_> even so, haiku has a stable ABI, so a driver update might not need a huge recompile of everything[15:32:27] <DDevine> m0ns0on: Should the user have to go through a checklist? No.[15:32:31] <m0ns0on> The main point is to avoid regressions as much as possible,[15:32:38] <m0ns0on> DDevine, No it'd be too complex, agreed.[15:32:46] *** Lelldorin1 has joined #haiku[15:32:52] <markos_> DDevine: well he does on every platform, even on windows and macosx, ie. there is a checklist[15:32:59] <m0ns0on> DDevine, But kernel updates could be marked differently from other updates.[15:33:02] <markos_> a checklist is the least of the problems[15:33:22] *** _arjen_ has quit IRC[15:33:28] <DDevine> Of course there will be a checklist, but I don't think the checklist should be the only or primary control mechanism for controlling updates.[15:33:35] <markos_> a gfx driver update might be distributed as a single update, no need to update the complete kernel[15:33:39] <m0ns0on> markos_, As long as they are autochecked for the dummies, checklists shouldn't be too scary.[15:33:40] <Lelldorin1> hi all[15:34:17] <DDevine> m0ns0on: Yeah... maybe. They should definitely be broken into groups (like in PackageKit)[15:34:46] <m0ns0on> DDevine, My biggest flag says: Please, don't turn Haiku into Linux just because you also use Linux :)[15:34:56] <m0ns0on> DDevine, Not pointed at you[15:34:56] <markos_> m0ns0on: +1[15:34:57] <m0ns0on> :)[15:35:00] <m0ns0on> But it general[15:35:07] <m0ns0on> Many people want to change Haiku into Linux.[15:35:22] <DDevine> m0ns0on: I understand, and at the same time dony turn Haiku into Mac OSX because you use Mac OSX.[15:35:29] <m0ns0on> DDevine, Also[15:35:31] <m0ns0on> And windows[15:35:32] <m0ns0on> etc.[15:35:34] <markos_> if it does it will lose, linux has had ~20 years of package management experience[15:36:23] <markos_> haiku has to get the best points of each system, but not copy any system in particular[15:36:41] <dru_> except BeOS of course :-)[15:36:54] <DDevine> m0ns0on: But Linux has good ideas - at the very least I wan't some type of repository based system. Even if it is just an OS update system with a package signing list (so that official packages can be sorted from virus-infected packages)[15:37:12] <markos_> well, in that case it shouldn't copy beos, as it doesn't really have a system for updates/packages anyway :)[15:37:24] <markos_> DDevine: only for the base OS[15:37:24] <DDevine> "Hey there buddy, that firefox package you are installing isn't the official one from the Firefox project!"[15:37:29] <DDevine> That kind of thing.[15:37:39] <DDevine> I want package signing.[15:37:45] <markos_> why[15:37:46] <markos_> ?[15:37:57] <DDevine> Because - take one look at Windows.[15:38:14] <markos_> take a look at mac also, and debian[15:38:19] <DDevine> People go around installing virus infected packages they found on obscure websites and in Limewire all the time.[15:38:33] <markos_> mac doesn't have signed packages, debian has, and it was compromised twice[15:39:03] <DDevine> Its stupid and wrong! Package signing is needed, and IIRC there is something like that in OSX>[15:39:15] <dru_> also, signed means involving trusted authorities, which indcues cost upon largely hobby developers[15:39:34] <markos_> gpg signing is useless if the signatures are weak, if the protocol is weak or if the developers don't really have a strong meaning of trust[15:39:42] <markos_> s/meaning/notion[15:40:00] <DDevine> dru_: Well if people don't like the official package authority, they can add another authority (like adding RPMFusion repos to Fedora)[15:40:08] <markos_> the protocols will be cracked either by brute force or by mathematical advances[15:40:15] <markos_> but you can't beat the people argument[15:40:55] <markos_> i was in debian and was part of many key signing parties, some people were paranoid and others just didn't care for anything other than their package to be uploaded in the main archive[15:41:08] <markos_> the chain is as strong as its weakest link[15:41:28] <dru_> DDEvine, can and will are two VERY different words[15:41:36] <dru_> DDevine you are thinking like a geek[15:41:53] <dru_> all of us *are* geeks, but we have to ask ourselves who the target is[15:42:04] <dru_> in the case of Linux, the target is 99% geek[15:42:09] <Ingenu> I'm no geek[15:42:15] <Ingenu> I'm a computer scientist[15:42:16] <Ingenu> :p[15:42:22] <Ingenu> there's a subtle difference[15:42:29] <dru_> ingenu not much.[15:42:42] <Ingenu> might be the reason why I despise linux distros :p[15:42:42] <markos_> you're a just a certified geek[15:43:19] <dru_> if the target is geeks to whom adding untrusted authorities is a trivial task, then fine[15:43:19] <Ingenu> you're all mean :p[15:43:39] <markos_> dru_: the target is geeks also in haiku's case, but only now, in 5 years it might be different, and it doesn't hurt to plan ahead a little[15:44:07] <markos_> Ingenu: why? you can actually prove that you're a geek, most other people are geek wannabes :)[15:44:14] <markos_> or geek posers :D[15:44:45] <dru_> markos that's the point, if you design and implement an architecture that panders to the current culture it will not be replaced in time for that evolution.[15:44:55] <dru_> and you'll be in the same box that Linux is in[15:45:16] <markos_> dru_: that's why i'm against haiku package repos, at least for anything else other than the base system :)[15:45:35] <dru_> see I am against repos altogether.[15:45:53] <markos_> dru_: i'm also fine with that, we just need some way to do base system updates[15:45:54] *** kitallis_ is now known as kitallis[15:45:54] <Ingenu> one place to rule them all[15:45:54] <dru_> because end users don't understand them[15:46:09] <markos_> it doesn't have to be a repo visible to the user[15:46:15] <Ingenu> I doubt people failed to understand bebits.com[15:46:23] <Ingenu> I think the issue is rather how you expose it[15:46:37] <markos_> even a list of files that the OS updater would check periodically to see for updates is in essence a repo[15:46:46] <Ingenu> a repository could just be exposed like bebits.com to end users[15:46:50] <dru_> ingenu I think the difference is that bebits (download.com etc) aren't the hard part.[15:47:08] <dru_> the hard part is what to do with them once you have them.[15:47:15] <dru_> SoftwareValet ?[15:47:19] <dru_> AptGet[15:47:20] <Ingenu> yep[15:47:23] <dru_> ports install[15:47:25] <Ingenu> what BeOS had[15:47:32] <Ingenu> autonomous apps[15:47:36] <dru_> Sparkle,[15:47:42] <dru_> etc.[15:47:47] <m0ns0on> Take an example[15:47:59] <m0ns0on> In Haiku I have 5-6 apps I have installed that I use often[15:48:02] <Ingenu> I don't care if you have a lot of file duplication, we have huge disks today, it's easier to just be able to del a folder to uninstall and have no annoying interactions[15:48:03] <dru_> I'm with Markos on this.[15:48:05] <CIA-46> bonefish * r33914 /haiku/trunk/src/apps/debugger/dwarf/ (DwarfFile.cpp DwarfFile.h):[15:48:05] <CIA-46> gcc 2.95.3 doesn't generate a .debug_frame section. Fortunately it generates a[15:48:05] <CIA-46> .eh_frame section which seems to have almost identical contents (haven't found[15:48:05] <CIA-46> any specification). So now we use .eh_frame with minor tweaks, when[15:48:05] <CIA-46> .debug_frame is not available.[15:48:06] *** Colin_Finck is now known as Colin_Finck|afk[15:48:06] <m0ns0on> In Linux is have thousands[15:48:21] <CIA-46> bonefish * r33915 /haiku/trunk/src/apps/debugger/debug_info/DwarfImageDebugInfo.cpp: More debug output.[15:48:24] <m0ns0on> Is it because in Linux, I wanted thousands of apps, or because of a repository with dependencies?[15:48:31] <m0ns0on> Or culture[15:48:33] <dru_> Haiku-os needs to serve core updates via a system update system.[15:48:33] <m0ns0on> Or both?[15:48:46] <Ingenu> Haiku update for the OS, sure[15:48:55] <m0ns0on> Ingenu, You are probably a messy person =)[15:48:59] <Ingenu> update drivers and other OS elements[15:49:00] <m0ns0on> Ingenu, Think clean.[15:49:12] *** wildur has joined #Haiku[15:49:17] <dru_> from there, the OS needs to support a single installation format, ala .msi .pkg or the old softwarevalet format.[15:49:24] <Ingenu> I'm software engineer, I think that requires me to strive for simplicity in design and implementation[15:49:26] <markos_> m0ns0on: a system with the more or less the same apps in haiku would consist of an order of magnitude less "packages" than on linux[15:49:30] <m0ns0on> Ingenu, Just because you have a room doesn't mean you should stuff lots into it.[15:49:46] <dru_> or even rpm.[15:49:53] <Ingenu> it's the power of simplicity[15:49:56] <m0ns0on> No[15:49:56] <dru_> you do that, you keep a paradigm that users grok[15:50:00] <m0ns0on> It's the power of lazyness[15:50:08] <Ingenu> no[15:50:12] <m0ns0on> Being a software engineer, you also know how to cut corners in development time[15:50:12] <m0ns0on> :)[15:50:22] <markos_> eg. a haiku system with just firefox would consist of 2 packages: the base system (provided we don't split it in separate packages) and firefox[15:50:45] <markos_> on linux i'm pretty sure it's more than 500 packages[15:50:46] <m0ns0on> btw: I'm also a sofware engineer, doesn't weight here, this is a matter of common sense.[15:51:00] <Ingenu> nop[15:51:05] <Ingenu> it's a matter of taste really[15:51:13] <m0ns0on> Taste is relative[15:51:14] <CIA-46> bonefish * r33916 /haiku/trunk/src/apps/debugger/dwarf/DwarfExpressionEvaluator.cpp:[15:51:14] <CIA-46> Work-around for a gcc 2.95.3 peculiarity: The DW_OP_reg* are incorrectly used[15:51:14] <CIA-46> in non-location expressions.[15:51:20] *** GeneralMaximus has quit IRC[15:51:22] <Ingenu> I want something that I'm used to, that's simple and works fine[15:51:22] <m0ns0on> Relativity never leeds to answers, only perspectives.[15:51:50] *** bbjimmy has joined #haiku[15:52:02] <Ingenu> at best, I download a zip, I inflate it anywhere, and start the executable[15:52:12] <Ingenu> and I delete the folder when I'm done with the app[15:52:13] <m0ns0on> markos_, Which is messy imo. Linux is a messy system and it tries to paint over it with layers.[15:52:36] <markos_> Ingenu: it's a matter of time, how much time do you spend in the one case for development/packaging/repository maintainance and the other case you only have the upload to some web site and the user downloads it and installs it[15:52:40] <m0ns0on> Ingenu, And the best engineering decision (leads to less faults in the system) would be to also make it like that on the system level.[15:52:50] <dru_> uh, the heirarchial file system in and of itself is messy[15:52:59] <m0ns0on> Ingenu, Not to make a big filemess under the hood, but a pretty icon on top.[15:53:00] <dru_> with relative paths and crap[15:53:12] <Ingenu> you want to slice it in servers ?[15:53:20] <Ingenu> (you know the input_server...)[15:54:17] *** VinDuv has quit IRC[15:54:22] <m0ns0on> Anyway, I gotta go - this is an interesting discussion (even though I've had it before)[15:54:24] *** rennj has quit IRC[15:54:33] <m0ns0on> Didn't mean to sound insulting, Ingenu :) (just read the log)[15:54:36] <Ingenu> bye[15:54:44] <Ingenu> no offence taken[15:54:46] <m0ns0on> bibi[15:54:49] *** m0ns0on has quit IRC[15:56:18] *** hoelzro has joined #haiku[15:57:09] *** Lelldorin1 has quit IRC[16:00:56] <Begasus> nice thing in linux is that when you compile from sources you can do the same thing ;)[16:01:08] <Begasus> (or even use uninstall)[16:01:19] <Begasus> make uninstall*[16:03:06] <dru_> I wonder if VMWare would release enough information to make a Unity capable video driver for Haiku running in Fusion :-)[16:04:09] *** wildur has quit IRC[16:05:17] <dru_> I am curious why the base images don't include dev tools though[16:07:30] <dru_> I meant beyond gcc and make[16:07:46] *** Al2O3 has quit IRC[16:07:52] <dru_> no paladin or something to attract the more casual devs[16:13:00] *** wildur has joined #Haiku[16:13:09] *** togermano has joined #haiku[16:20:18] <DDevine> I think the included stuff is good enough.[16:20:27] <DDevine> Isn't a great need to add more.[16:22:44] *** gtaw has joined #haiku[16:23:54] *** Colin_Finck|afk is now known as Colin_Finck[16:24:19] *** mmu_man has joined #haiku[16:24:19] *** ChanServ sets mode: +o mmu_man[16:24:44] <CIA-46> axeld * r33917 /haiku/trunk/headers/os/interface/TextView.h: * Someone obviously forgot to check in some header changes. Build fix.[16:25:51] *** DDevine has quit IRC[16:26:10] *** DDevine has joined #haiku[16:28:11] <CIA-46> bonefish * r33918 /haiku/trunk/src/apps/debugger/debug_info/ (DwarfTypes.cpp DwarfTypes.h): A Type suffices as base type for DwarfSubrangeType.[16:29:33] *** togermano has quit IRC[16:29:34] <dru_> DDevine I guess to each their own.[16:30:14] <dru_> again, for geeks, make and vim are fine, for more casual uses, ide's are prefered.[16:30:28] <dru_> guess it depends upon the targets[16:31:05] <dru_> I know that even though I can use makefiles and vim, I detest both :-)[16:31:59] <gtaw> You would.[16:32:47] <CIA-46> bonefish * r33919 /haiku/trunk/src/apps/debugger/debug_info/ (DwarfTypeFactory.cpp DwarfTypeFactory.h):[16:32:47] <CIA-46> _CreateSubrangeType(): Squashed TODO: If no base type entry is available, we[16:32:47] <CIA-46> create a base type on the fly. This gets array types working with gcc 2[16:32:47] <CIA-46> generated files.[16:33:38] <dru_> gtaw :D probably because I've spent 20 years doing business development and not 5 years of academia :-)[16:34:41] *** togermano has joined #haiku[16:35:21] *** StreaK|ON has joined #haiku[16:36:47] *** mmu_man has quit IRC[16:38:01] <gtaw> You would spend 20 years doing business development and not 5 years of academia.[16:38:01] *** adamk_ has quit IRC[16:38:04] <gtaw> :][16:38:37] *** mmu_man has joined #haiku[16:38:37] *** ChanServ sets mode: +o mmu_man[16:39:25] <CIA-46> axeld * r33920 /haiku/trunk/src/apps/debugger/user_interface/gui/team_window/ (RegistersView.cpp StackTraceView.cpp):[16:39:25] <CIA-46> * Improved default column sizes. Maybe the table view class should be able to[16:39:25] <CIA-46> do so automatically?[16:40:01] <gtaw> Sorry, dru :( I had a long week.[16:40:20] <dru_> same, and no need to apologize, I found it funny[16:40:20] *** mmadia has joined #haiku[16:40:23] <dru_> and it's very true[16:41:05] <dru_> gotta have a thick skin, I've had the same argument repeatedly with linux advocates :-)[16:41:32] <gtaw> I blew another trucker's mind with Haiku in Colorado yesterday.[16:41:42] *** mmu_man is now known as mmu_Alchimie[16:42:57] <dru_> gtaw isn't if fun. I'm using it as the only OS on my Acer netbook now[16:44:06] <gtaw> Yeah it's pretty neat.[16:44:55] <dru_> there are quirks, but overall it's great.[16:45:27] <dru_> wireless is still a little iffy, but that's something that can be dealt with[16:45:57] <gtaw> Yeah it needs to be dealt with ASAP in my opinion.[16:47:34] <CIA-46> aldeck * r33921 /haiku/trunk/src/tools/checkstyle/checkstyle.py:[16:47:34] <CIA-46> * Use os.path.walk to visit directories[16:47:34] <CIA-46> * Use \w instead of [a-zA-Z0-9] in some regex's[16:47:34] <CIA-46> * Add switch to the "space after control statement" rule[16:47:34] <CIA-46> * Added pointer/reference style rule[16:48:15] <togermano> haiku 4eva :D[16:49:14] <dru_> gtaw it's such a non-trivial thing though.[16:49:47] <dru_> gtaw spend some time with linux and realize what it's taken to get where they are and you have a new appreciation for what's been done already on the wireless stack[16:51:16] <togermano> linux sucks[16:51:17] <togermano> x sucks[16:51:19] <togermano> beos foreva[16:52:19] *** leszek has joined #haiku[16:52:20] <dru_> all OS's suck. It's just to what degree and if you can live with the things that suck about the one you like.[16:52:35] <leszek> hi[16:52:50] *** michail has quit IRC[16:53:04] <togermano> once haiku fixes wireless support,better media,arora gets better as a browser i can live with it[16:53:15] <dru_> and that's said by someone that literally has Linux, Mac OS X, Windows 7, Solaris, Haiku, Windows Server 2008 within arms reach and running right now.[16:53:41] *** gtaw has quit IRC[16:54:45] <togermano> how much work more does the app server need until complete?[16:55:49] *** Geoz has joined #haiku[16:56:37] *** The123king has joined #haiku[16:57:30] <togermano> if wine keeps going you could include wine into haiku and it would be a faster windows :P[16:57:54] *** dflemstr has joined #haiku[16:58:29] <DDevine> togermano: Haiku's lack of an X server makes this difficult.[16:58:40] <DDevine> Winelib shouldn't be too hard to get working though.[16:59:17] <togermano> oh yeah i forgot about xserver[16:59:26] <togermano> i'm so happy haiku developers didn't hack up windows x for it[16:59:35] <dru_> great, so you too can join the 'half ass ports of windows trash to your operatind system' club[17:00:13] *** Shoozza has quit IRC[17:00:25] *** w-m- has quit IRC[17:00:25] *** Shoozza has joined #haiku[17:00:36] *** lstarnes has quit IRC[17:00:36] *** peerkoel has quit IRC[17:00:39] *** lstarnes has joined #haiku[17:00:39] *** w-m- has joined #haiku[17:00:46] *** lstarnes has quit IRC[17:00:46] *** Kernel86|Laptop has quit IRC[17:00:56] *** mmu_screen has quit IRC[17:00:58] *** mmu_screen has joined #haiku[17:01:13] *** peerkoel has joined #haiku[17:01:32] *** Kernel86|Laptop has joined #Haiku[17:01:32] *** w-m- is now known as Guest9259[17:01:38] *** lstarnes has joined #haiku[17:03:10] *** Lelldorin1 has joined #haiku[17:04:43] <CIA-46> aldeck * r33922 /haiku/trunk/src/apps/haiku3d/ (RenderView.cpp RenderView.h): * Style fixes (pointer style)[17:07:07] *** mmadia has quit IRC[17:07:37] *** sprma has joined #haiku[17:07:53] *** waveshaper has quit IRC[17:08:01] <togermano> any updates on how the wireless is going?[17:08:09] *** mmadia has joined #haiku[17:12:02] *** ziomatto has joined #haiku[17:14:05] *** mmu_Alchimie has quit IRC[17:14:34] *** HaikuBot1 has joined #haiku[17:16:39] *** PacoLinux has quit IRC[17:17:28] *** PacoLinux has joined #haiku[17:18:52] *** PacoLinux has quit IRC[17:19:26] *** PacoLinux has joined #haiku[17:19:32] *** Hugen_ has joined #haiku[17:20:39] *** HaikuBot has quit IRC[17:23:50] *** miqlas has joined #haiku[17:27:49] *** redblue has joined #haiku[17:31:41] *** Lelldorin1 has quit IRC[17:31:51] *** Barrett has quit IRC[17:32:45] *** amuck_ has joined #haiku[17:35:49] *** Barrett has joined #haiku[17:35:52] *** luroh has joined #haiku[17:42:22] *** adamk_ has joined #haiku[17:42:54] *** Hugen_ has quit IRC[17:54:22] *** fly-away has quit IRC[17:55:13] *** AlienSoldier has joined #haiku[18:02:09] *** LordKoopa has joined #haiku[18:02:09] *** StreaK|ON has quit IRC[18:02:15] *** LordKoopa is now known as StreaK|ON[18:02:51] *** oxoocoffee has joined #haiku[18:10:01] *** tqh has joined #haiku[18:17:26] *** Hugen_ has joined #haiku[18:18:50] *** DDevine has quit IRC[18:23:15] *** Colin_Finck has quit IRC[18:23:16] *** Kerwin has joined #haiku[18:23:23] <Kerwin> hello[18:23:37] *** mmu_man has joined #haiku[18:23:38] *** ChanServ sets mode: +o mmu_man[18:23:46] <Kerwin> Anyone knows how to start sshd under haiku ?[18:23:59] <CIA-46> aldeck * r33923 /haiku/trunk/src/apps/deskcalc/ (11 files):[18:23:59] <CIA-46> * Style fixes. Encountered ambiguous cases, please see my following questions[18:23:59] <CIA-46> in the commit ml.[18:24:11] *** leszek has quit IRC[18:24:32] *** mmu_man is now known as mmu_Alchimie[18:24:45] <mmadia> is that today, mmu_Alchimie ?[18:25:52] <mmadia> Kerwin the [haiku], [haiku-development] mailing list archives should have some posts. Trac may have a few tickets too.[18:26:49] *** sprma has quit IRC[18:26:56] <mmu_Alchimie> mmadia yes[18:27:21] <mmadia> did the table runner arrive in time?[18:27:21] <Kerwin> I'll have a loot thanks[18:27:33] <mmu_Alchimie> hmm damn I have a thread busy looping in vlc, need to reboot[18:27:33] *** sprma has joined #haiku[18:27:39] <mmu_Alchimie> seems to be some BFS corruption[18:27:55] <Kerwin> Actually it was just missing the directory /var/empty, a simple mkdir solved it[18:28:08] *** mmu_Alchimie has quit IRC[18:30:15] *** mmu_man has joined #haiku[18:30:16] *** ChanServ sets mode: +o mmu_man[18:31:10] *** mmu_man is now known as mmu_Alchimie[18:44:30] *** VinDuv has joined #haiku[18:51:14] *** adamk_ has quit IRC[18:52:39] *** mmadia_ has joined #haiku[18:52:46] *** mmadia_ has left #haiku[18:52:52] *** adamk_ has joined #haiku[18:55:08] <DraX> sbrk(0) makes the baby jesus cry :([18:57:58] *** Begasus has quit IRC[19:02:17] *** StreaK|ON is now known as _[19:02:48] *** _ is now known as Guest92564[19:03:03] *** fly-away has joined #haiku[19:03:09] *** Guest92564 has left #haiku[19:03:12] *** Begasus has joined #haiku[19:06:19] *** Kerwin has quit IRC[19:06:49] *** StreaK|ON has joined #haiku[19:09:53] *** tqh has quit IRC[19:11:40] *** PasNox has joined #haiku[19:11:42] *** michail has joined #haiku[19:12:21] *** Hugen_ has quit IRC[19:12:58] *** StreaK|ON has quit IRC[19:14:23] <Begasus> neat ... Discworld looks nice ;)[19:14:36] *** Hugen has joined #haiku[19:14:41] *** StreaK|ON has joined #haiku[19:15:13] *** slaine_ has quit IRC[19:18:28] *** jmelesky has joined #haiku[19:19:16] *** VinDuv has quit IRC[19:21:17] <CIA-46> bonefish * r33924 /haiku/trunk/src/apps/debugger/dwarf/DwarfFile.cpp:[19:21:17] <CIA-46> Handle the "eh" CIE augmentation which can appear in a .eh_frame section.[19:21:17] <CIA-46> Hopefully the last hurdle gcc 2 has prepared for preventing variables to show[19:21:17] <CIA-46> up.[19:23:38] *** DaneScott has joined #haiku[19:24:02] *** DaneScott has quit IRC[19:25:23] *** StreaK|ON has quit IRC[19:26:31] *** thowe has joined #Haiku[19:31:03] *** raichoo has joined #haiku[19:31:08] *** _arjen_ has joined #haiku[19:33:33] *** Al2O3 has joined #haiku[19:35:24] *** redblue has quit IRC[19:38:38] *** leszek has joined #haiku[19:38:54] <leszek> re[19:39:23] *** LinuxKeitaro has quit IRC[19:44:08] *** redblue has joined #haiku[19:52:48] *** SiCuTDeUx has joined #haiku[19:54:31] *** binaryimpulse has joined #haiku[19:58:23] <Begasus> is it known that the option "LIBICONV = -liconv" doesn't get picked up in a makefile?[19:59:22] *** cb88 has joined #haiku[20:00:57] *** ari2-free has quit IRC[20:07:29] *** [r4]_ has joined #haiku[20:08:41] *** ari2-free has joined #haiku[20:09:04] *** raichoo has quit IRC[20:13:54] *** GeneralMaximus has joined #haiku[20:18:45] *** adamk_ has quit IRC[20:28:31] *** miqlas has quit IRC[20:30:40] *** sprma has quit IRC[20:32:35] *** Xbertl has joined #haiku[20:34:52] *** wildur has quit IRC[20:35:10] *** michail has quit IRC[20:37:20] *** wildur has joined #Haiku[20:39:10] *** HaikuBot has joined #haiku[20:40:40] *** markos__ has joined #haiku[20:40:58] *** xvedejas has joined #haiku[20:41:08] *** GeneralMaximus has quit IRC[20:45:54] *** HaikuBot1 has quit IRC[20:46:08] *** cb88 has quit IRC[20:48:14] <Hugen> I search thread for localization of Haiku on ml[20:48:36] <Hugen> And I don't see this[20:48:44] <Hugen> Who help me[20:49:09] <mmadia> check the [haiku-doc] ml[20:50:57] *** oco has joined #haiku[20:51:19] <Begasus> tuxmath up and running ;)[20:51:46] <Hugen> but it was on haiku ml[20:54:21] *** VinDuv has joined #haiku[20:54:33] <Hugen> sic I can not search proper[20:58:07] <mmadia> hugen , maybe it was on [haiku-development]? which thread are you looking for?[20:58:26] *** markos_ has quit IRC[20:58:27] *** markos__ is now known as markos_[21:03:51] *** miqlas has joined #haiku[21:11:35] *** Styrbjorn has joined #haiku[21:13:26] <Hugen> mmadia: volunteer entering for localisation of Haiku[21:14:32] *** tqh has joined #haiku[21:19:53] <mmadia> send a line out to [haiku-doc] ml and mention it. Humdinger will probably need to create a haiku-i18n-pl[21:25:39] *** michaelvo has joined #haiku[21:26:21] <Hugen> oki doki[21:26:45] <michaelvo> Hugen flash are working perfect here[21:27:01] *** plfiorini has joined #haiku[21:27:18] <mmadia> this may be the site you're looking for too, http://userguide.haikuzone.net/[21:27:34] <Hugen> goot to see[21:27:45] <Hugen> err good[21:28:39] *** togermano has quit IRC[21:30:37] *** tqh has quit IRC[21:31:51] *** plfiorini has left #haiku[21:33:40] *** gtaw has joined #haiku[21:36:05] <Hugen> http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AhviQ8i07mvsdEg5VXhqUzVkREdpbmdsTmlOcVg3OGc&hl=pl[21:36:37] <Hugen> what means h letter?[21:39:46] *** thotypous has quit IRC[21:41:02] *** mmu_Alchimie has quit IRC[21:42:14] *** tombhad-AC has joined #haiku[21:42:15] *** miqlas has quit IRC[21:42:35] *** tombhadAC has quit IRC[21:42:44] *** miqlas has joined #haiku[21:43:08] *** mmu_man has joined #haiku[21:43:08] *** ChanServ sets mode: +o mmu_man[21:48:42] *** mmu_man has quit IRC[21:52:10] *** ziomatto has quit IRC[21:57:05] *** StreaK|ON has joined #haiku[21:58:17] *** Hugen has quit IRC[22:00:53] *** oxoocoffee has quit IRC[22:00:54] *** tombhad-AC has quit IRC[22:01:18] *** tombhad-AC has joined #haiku[22:03:59] *** tqh has joined #haiku[22:05:10] *** PasNox has quit IRC[22:05:29] *** Hugen_ has joined #haiku[22:06:33] *** ari2-free has quit IRC[22:07:51] *** PasNox has joined #haiku[22:08:33] *** nielx has joined #haiku[22:11:38] *** SiCuTDeUx has quit IRC[22:13:24] <leszek> gn8@all[22:13:29] <fhein> if I right click something and select "identify", what is supposed to happen?[22:13:41] *** leszek has quit IRC[22:14:05] <mmadia> the mimetype is registered.[22:14:08] <nielx> fhein: the file type will be 'identified' (or at least guessed)[22:18:28] <fhein> you mean like the icon changes from a white paper to something more meaningful?[22:18:59] *** StreaK|ON has quit IRC[22:19:29] <nielx> well, it tries some identification that at least looks at the file extension, so a .jpg will be identified as an image[22:19:38] <nielx> I don't know whether it tries to guess the filetype by the contents[22:21:39] <fhein> when do you need to do that? :)[22:22:06] *** OmniMancer has joined #haiku[22:22:46] <aldeck> it sniffs the content, the extension doesn't matter iirc[22:23:14] <aldeck> fhein: it will be made more automatic in the future[22:23:27] <aldeck> so you'd only have to do it in some rare occasions[22:23:32] <fhein> sounds good :)[22:24:13] <fhein> time to get some sleep[22:26:44] <aldeck> using the filetypes addon you can force a type on a file[22:27:12] *** fhein has quit IRC[22:27:12] <aldeck> then you'd have to use shift right click -> Forec Identify[22:28:40] *** adamk_ has joined #haiku[22:28:47] *** hoelzro has quit IRC[22:35:17] *** Begasus has quit IRC[22:35:57] *** Begasus has joined #haiku[22:36:15] *** gtaw has quit IRC[22:37:10] *** HaikuBot has quit IRC[22:37:27] *** wildur has quit IRC[22:41:23] *** dru_ has quit IRC[22:45:11] *** VinDuv has quit IRC[22:48:24] *** triplez has quit IRC[22:48:56] *** triplez has joined #haiku[22:49:06] *** Logic has joined #haiku[22:49:50] *** mmu_man has joined #haiku[22:49:50] *** ChanServ sets mode: +o mmu_man[22:53:26] *** michaelvo has quit IRC[22:55:30] *** Sryche has joined #haiku[22:58:53] *** joshc has quit IRC[23:01:21] *** miqlas has quit IRC[23:06:00] <CIA-46> anevilyak * r33925 /haiku/trunk/src/apps/debugger/debug_info/DwarfTypeFactory.cpp: Fix gcc4 build.[23:11:00] *** bbjimmy has quit IRC[23:11:14] *** Cuty has joined #haiku[23:11:29] *** miqlas has joined #haiku[23:11:37] *** kitallis has quit IRC[23:17:47] *** wildur has joined #Haiku[23:21:14] *** Guest9259 has quit IRC[23:25:08] *** Ingenu has quit IRC[23:26:30] *** Hugen_ has quit IRC[23:26:38] *** The123king has quit IRC[23:26:59] <Advant-> this is funny[23:27:00] <Advant-> The following channels exist to aid non-english speakers. Unless noted, they are all part of the irc.freenode.org network.[23:27:10] <Advant-> #haiku-au[23:27:11] <Advant-> IRC Channel (Australian)[23:27:13] <Advant-> :P[23:27:17] <OmniMancer> :P[23:27:28] <OmniMancer> hmmm how many people speak austalian?[23:27:34] <OmniMancer> australian*[23:27:46] <Advant-> i was curious myself[23:28:40] <tqh> In Australia you may say Gooday mate, but here you say hello :)[23:29:15] <Advant-> how would you say, :my haiku installed is fucked" ?[23:30:33] <tqh> the dingo ate my OS.[23:30:38] <jmelesky> heh[23:33:09] *** mmu_man has quit IRC[23:33:11] *** miqlas has quit IRC[23:34:00] <Begasus> g'night peeps[23:34:07] *** Begasus has quit IRC[23:40:25] *** Sryche has quit IRC[23:46:29] *** umccullough_w has joined #haiku[23:46:42] *** Hugen_ has joined #haiku[23:50:28] *** HaikUbuntu has joined #haiku[23:51:42] *** lazarjeremic has joined #haiku[23:51:55] *** Barrett has quit IRC[23:52:02] *** lazarjeremic has left #haiku[23:52:25] *** gtaw has joined #haiku[23:54:13] *** mmu_man has joined #haiku[23:54:13] *** ChanServ sets mode: +o mmu_man[23:56:31] *** mmlr has joined #haiku[23:58:02] *** lazarjeremic has joined #haiku[23:58:18] *** lazarjeremic has left #haiku[23:58:23] *** lazarjeremic has joined #haiku