[00:00:13] <Tronic> Btw, is anyone in this discussion actually a Haiku developer?
[00:00:29] <OmniMancer> about object stuff inC
[00:00:34] <saivert> and yes in COM you can update the implementation of an old interface and old apps can benefit from it.
[00:00:46] <saivert> as long as the interface stays the same, all is good
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[00:00:58] <Tronic> saivert: Even if you need to modify the data?
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[00:01:24] <OmniMancer> you can do it so that you make a struct that holds function pointers that are used to find functions that operate on the data
[00:01:33] <Tronic> Modifying the implementation can be done in naïve C++ class implementation too, but modifying data is the tricky part.
[00:01:44] *** helf3 is now known as helf2
[00:01:48] <saivert> well.. interface only specifies functions. so you obviously would return different values than what was expected before. but you can optimize code otherwise.
[00:01:51] * JonathanThompson poits helf2
[00:01:59] <saivert> wouldn't***
[00:02:03] <JonathanThompson> Cheshire cat class...
[00:02:05] <JonathanThompson> FTW!
[00:02:16] <OmniMancer> prototype object system :D
[00:02:20] <leszek> is there a pkill command in haiku ? or something else that allows me to kill a app with its name rather then having its pid
[00:02:38] <JonathanThompson> You could also use a class with all static methods that you passed in a this pointer that users of the class knew no details about.
[00:02:45] <OmniMancer> ps + grep + look + kill?
[00:03:06] <OmniMancer> where look is not a program?
[00:03:20] <leszek> OmniMancer, I need it for something automatically
[00:03:22] <JonathanThompson> If you properly abstract things such that there's no exposed data or methods that are virtual with a single class, you'll never break binary compatibility.
[00:03:28] <leszek> so nothing manually checking
[00:03:46] <JonathanThompson> Then use functors for methods added to the SDK class to call back.
[00:04:28] <saivert> as I said, you obviously wouldn't reimplement an old interface in such a way that it no longer behaves the same
[00:04:31] <saivert> I don't get that at least
[00:04:48] <JonathanThompson> BeOS's SDK/API is messed up: horribly fragile for encapsulation/lack thereof.
[00:04:55] <saivert> sure you can make the code run faster if at all possible. but changing behaviour is a no no
[00:05:24] *** hm_b has quit IRC
[00:05:34] <saivert> and in that linked list example. if the old code didn't make use of a .getSize() method, then it's no helping
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[00:05:44] <kirilla> so today is language day :)
[00:05:49] <JonathanThompson> BView is the class that ate Manhattan: it includes a kitchen sink, has an ultrawide interface that does all sorts of things, and exposes all sorts of details.
[00:06:02] *** Hinata has quit IRC
[00:06:12] <kirilla> first esperanto and now FBC syndrome
[00:06:12] <JonathanThompson> It isn't "Minimal but complete"
[00:07:01] <JonathanThompson> kirilla: while we're at it, let's rewrite Haiku's API in Esperanto C++ :P
[00:07:09] <Tronic> saivert: Anyway, COM doesn't compare with the other systems discussed because it is interprocess communication (RPC), not for internal APIs.
[00:07:34] <JonathanThompson> Tronic: were you aware quite a few GUI classes in Windows are COM-based?
[00:07:43] <Tronic> So I hear.
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[00:08:01] <JonathanThompson> Visual Test 4.0 wouldn't work with those classes....
[00:08:04] <Tronic> I do absolutely no Windows development because the APIs are all so horribly bad that they scare me away.
[00:08:15] <saivert> lol. bad?
[00:08:30] <Tronic> Starting with all thos LPCSTR and HWNDs.
[00:08:31] <JonathanThompson> Right, go do Linux instead, and get a different sort of hell :P
[00:08:46] <saivert> Tronic: that are products of C
[00:08:58] <Tronic> Custom typedefs for standard types just suck.
[00:09:11] <AlienSoldier> you know windows programming is no fun when even bill gates don't code for it anymore
[00:09:19] <saivert> it was in the time before strings was standardized
[00:09:35] <JonathanThompson> The thing is, "standard types" are like the great thing about standards in C, since there's so many standards to choose from.
[00:09:37] <Tronic> All typedefs that hide the star of a pointer are fundamentally broken because you cannot write const-correct code with them (unless separate typedefs are provided for const and non-const pointers).
[00:09:57] <saivert> LPSTR vs LPCSTR
[00:09:58] <JonathanThompson> There's no single compatible way to define how C compilers treat things that's written in stone.
[00:10:01] <saivert> so yes it's there
[00:10:18] <saivert> C requires typedefs
[00:10:25] <saivert> because C is crap
[00:10:33] <leszek> someone still got the binary for KillTeam ? Bebits.com links seem dead
[00:10:54] <JonathanThompson> If the underlying hardware changes, so, too, do some of the basics of C/C++ in ways that break.  Also, lots of nooks and crannies in the language that are "left to the implementor"
[00:11:02] <Tronic> Windows also uses UCS-2 as its Unicode representation, so it cannot handle all characters properly. Sure, they changed the spec to say that it is UTF-16 (non-fixed width), but that doesn't mean that the libraries and the applications would do anything about it.
[00:11:37] *** mmu_man has quit IRC
[00:11:44] <JonathanThompson> Too bad for the case of Windows that they were one of the first mainstream OSs to start using Unicode :P
[00:11:56] <OmniMancer> :P
[00:12:05] <saivert> yeah. and they have to be backwards compatible.
[00:12:07] <Tronic> E.g. C and C++ standard character facilities *require* the character to be fixed width. Microsoft just puts 16 bit integers in there so 32 bit Unicode characters break the library.
[00:12:44] <JonathanThompson> But on other things like ints and bit order and such, the standards are anything but, so there will still be breakage without typedefs for standard types.
[00:12:52] <Tronic> Qt uses UTF-32, avoiding the problem. Nearly all UNIX stuff uses UTF-8, usually with custom string types, again avoiding the problem.
[00:13:22] * JonathanThompson hates to think of the space used by Qt's strings...
[00:13:27] <OmniMancer> we need Io for haiku :D
[00:13:34] <JonathanThompson> UTF-32: all 4 bytes wide per character, all the time?
[00:13:45] <Tronic> JonathanThompson: Yes, it does waste RAM.
[00:14:04] <JonathanThompson> Though without extended characters (does it use them?) it will simplify things.
[00:14:07] *** bosii has left #haiku
[00:14:22] <brobostigon> good night all, sleep well haiku-ites.
[00:14:32] <JonathanThompson> Besides, for all we know, some aliens will present themselves and insist on adding their alphabet to UniversalCode :P
[00:14:33] <Tronic> UTF-8 seems like the best option, with a custom string type that gives iterators for traversing the buffer a character at a time (rather than a byte at a time).
[00:15:02] <saivert> well that's why you have separate functions for unicode strings
[00:15:16] <saivert> in Windows the so-called W functions
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[00:16:17] <Tronic> saivert: Which are broken, as I pointed out.
[00:16:52] <Tronic> For example, how do you do ch = toupper(ch)?
[00:17:11] <Tronic> Or isalpha(ch)
[00:17:58] <Tronic> If ch happens to be UTF-32 (32 bit value), you are fine, the conversion can be done just fine.
[00:18:17] <Tronic> But if it is 16 bit UTF-16, the chances are that you only have half a character there.
[00:18:29] <Tronic> Microsoft uses the latter, which is just broken.
[00:18:45] <saivert> yet Unicode apps work
[00:20:09] <Tronic> As long as you are not Chinese.
[00:21:12] <JonathanThompson> Bah, they don't count anyway, they pirate everything :P
[00:21:16] <Tronic> It almost works (at least from our PoV) but not quite and the API can never be fixed, and Microsoft is not working on a new API to replace it either.
[00:21:17] * JonathanThompson ducks
[00:21:34] <leszek> n1 I think I will put blinkenlights video as a screensaver here
[00:21:44] <JonathanThompson> Tronic: perhaps they're just going to remedy that by going to a CLR-based OS and dump C/C++ bindings entirely :P
[00:21:54] <BePhantom> anyone here?
[00:21:57] <Tronic> JonathanThompson: I guess.
[00:22:00] * JonathanThompson hides
[00:22:12] <JonathanThompson> I'm not here, BePhantom, this is my bot!
[00:22:12] <BePhantom> does anyone know about computer hardware?
[00:22:21] * JonathanThompson 's bot poits BePhantom
[00:22:30] * JonathanThompson knows nothing NOT
[00:22:31] <Tronic> Microsoft would love it if standard C and C++ just disappeared. All applications would be happily locked into Microsoft's own platform then.
[00:22:37] * BePhantom narfs JonathanThompson's borg
[00:22:42] <JonathanThompson> I don't know everything, but I certainly do know enough to be dangerous :P
[00:22:49] <Tronic> (even though Mono and DotGNU somewhat tint the victory)
[00:22:59] <BePhantom> I need some piece of advice
[00:23:05] <OmniMancer> Io!
[00:23:09] <BePhantom> regarding computer hardware
[00:23:41] <Tronic> They certainly are trying, offering something to fill every gap.
[00:24:11] <JonathanThompson> Hmmmm.... depends on the age, as it keeps on changing, BePhantom :)
[00:24:22] <OmniMancer> we require a pure prototype  object oriented language for haiku :D
[00:24:28] <JonathanThompson> My knowledge may be obsolete, but perhaps the hardware is equally obsolete, and it'll be a good match :P
[00:24:31] <Tronic> C# for Java coders, C++/CLI for those who want to have every possible feature, F# for those who love functional languages, VB.NET for the business app developers, ...
[00:24:35] *** diatoid has quit IRC
[00:25:02] <leszek> gn8@all
[00:25:11] <stpere> brainfuck for everybody else
[00:25:13] *** leszek has quit IRC
[00:25:55] <Tronic> I wrote brainfuck interpreter and compiler once :)
[00:26:19] <BePhantom> I want to buy a PC for occasional gaming and HD video playback. I don't know if I should buy a motherboard with integrated video (780G chipset, HD3200) or spend my money on a cheaper mobo and buy a standalone video card (Ati HD 4350)
[00:26:29] <JonathanThompson> Tronic: how did you test that it worked as required? :P
[00:26:40] <BePhantom> any suggestions?
[00:26:43] <Tronic> JonathanThompson: Formal analysis.
[00:26:46] <JonathanThompson> The question becomes: what sort of gaming?
[00:27:05] <JonathanThompson> And budget?
[00:27:13] <BePhantom> 363 dollars
[00:27:15] <JonathanThompson> On-board video seems to always lag.
[00:27:31] <Tronic> (it did make some assumptions of course w.r.t. buffer size and initialization, etc, can't remember which all things were left open in bf spec)
[00:27:33] <JonathanThompson> If that's what you have for board AND video card, and the rest is taken are of....
[00:27:45] <BePhantom> bare in mind the currency exchange, here everything is expensive
[00:27:54] <JonathanThompson> Depends on how expensive things are for you in Argentina.
[00:28:16] <JonathanThompson> You'd be able to get a decent MB and discrete videocard for that here, new.
[00:28:22] <JonathanThompson> (Do you already have RAM for that MB?)
[00:28:32] <BePhantom> for 363 dollars I can buy both options, the thing is I don't know which one I should choose. The first option I get a better mobo
[00:28:38] <JonathanThompson> I hope you've already got that :P
[00:28:40] *** DnS has quit IRC
[00:28:57] <Tronic> BePhantom: Which OS?
[00:29:09] <Tronic> (I am betting you won't be using Haiku)
[00:29:10] *** HaikUbuntu has quit IRC
[00:29:18] <JonathanThompson> Well, if your games don't require the fastest video performance (FPS 3D) you may be better off getting the first option.
[00:29:22] <BePhantom> well, Windows 7, with some alternative patition for Ubuntu
[00:29:27] <BePhantom> and possibly haiku
[00:29:49] <Tronic> BePhantom: For Ubuntu, you *really* don't want to buy AMD graphics.
[00:29:57] <saivert> but BMP is quite large. contains most characters. even for UTF-16
[00:30:00] <Tronic> It is very badly supported (the new chips in particular).
[00:30:02] <saivert> I think you need to read up on it
[00:30:10] <BePhantom> Tronic, I see
[00:30:27] * JonathanThompson waits for BePhantom to ask about which types of printers he should get
[00:30:32] <Tronic> Nvidia works very well, Intel hardware is crap and it doesn't support OpenGL 2.0 (but otherwise it works quite well).
[00:30:41] <JonathanThompson> Me, both of my printers can be controlled from any OS that support their hardware connection :P
[00:30:51] <JonathanThompson> (As long as they support PostScript/PCL)
[00:31:08] <kirilla> sega saturn gfx ftw!
[00:31:13] <JonathanThompson> BePhantom: such a simple question, such a complex answer :P
[00:31:40] <BePhantom> which one you say I should choose? good mobo+onboard graphics or cheap (proabably crappy) mobo+ video card
[00:32:07] <Tronic> So, for not so much gaming but watching HD video, I would recommend Nvidia 9600GT, a passively cooled version. The CPU doesn't matter that much if you use hardware acceleration for HD video.
[00:32:13] <JonathanThompson> It depends on which OSs you want and types of games you'll run, BePhantom, and how picky you are for speed.
[00:32:41] <kirilla> and how much noise you can endure
[00:32:45] <Tronic> Depending on your budget, possibly some model of Core2 Duo or Athlon64 X2, I suppose.
[00:32:52] <JonathanThompson> And how much heat you can tolerate.
[00:32:55] <JonathanThompson> (And the machine)
[00:33:10] <JonathanThompson> Do you have air conditioning always available, BePhantom ?
[00:33:19] <Tronic> And if you can afford it, SSD is a good thing to have (at least for the OS).
[00:33:20] <BePhantom> my budget is limited, so I can't be picky. Geforce 9600GT is kinda expensive here
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[00:33:35] <BePhantom> JonathanThompson, no, I don't have
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[00:33:47] <Tronic> If 9600GT is expensive, you most definitely don't want SSD.
[00:33:48] <JonathanThompson> Better go with something that can be passively cooled, then.
[00:33:57] <JonathanThompson> Then you can add a fan if absolutely required.
[00:33:58] <stpere> BePhantom: if your budget is limited, you HAVE to be picky
[00:34:38] <StreaK|ON> hey guys, can i create account on bebits? i couldnt find any
[00:34:43] <BePhantom> JonathanThompson, that's why HD 4350 is a good alternative
[00:34:46] * JonathanThompson notes his dual CPU board in early 2000 was far more expensive than BePhantom's budget, with no issues for exchange rates
[00:34:51] *** DaaT has joined #haiku
[00:34:52] <StreaK|ON> to create account
[00:34:53] <Tronic> There are some slower models in the 9000 series that can still do accelerated HD video, but are really not suitable for gaming.
[00:35:10] <Tronic> (except for older and 2D games of course)
[00:35:20] * JonathanThompson lobs a sheep covered with super glue at DaaT in greetings
[00:35:31] <kirilla> yo dudes
[00:35:35] <saivert> ATI 9000 series?
[00:35:40] <saivert> hd video? you serious?
[00:35:40] <Tronic> No, Nvidia.
[00:35:46] <kirilla> I have a question about R5 and binary compatibility
[00:35:55] <BePhantom> I kinda expected a definite answer :D but you guys seem to be doubtful
[00:35:57] <BePhantom> :D
[00:35:57] <stpere> kirilla: Yes.
[00:36:12] <Tronic> ATI 9000 series would be a better choice for Linux than HD4000 series, though.
[00:36:13] <JonathanThompson> You getting ideal results is what's most doubtful :P
[00:36:29] <kirilla> Is there anything at all in src/apps/deskbar that could possibly break backwards comp, if I changed it?
[00:36:30] <JonathanThompson> It just isn't that simple.
[00:36:33] <DaaT> heya JonathanThompson
[00:36:43] <JonathanThompson> Still stuck to that sheep?
[00:36:51] <JonathanThompson> Or did you get a solvent? :)
[00:37:05] * JonathanThompson notes DaaT can be a real problem solvent...
[00:37:07] <DaaT> never!
[00:37:10] <Tronic> It is best to consider that the new AMD graphics chips simply don't work on Linux. That isn't very far from the actual situation (e.g. too slow to surf to web).
[00:37:16] <DaaT> ugh...
[00:37:18] <kirilla> Or is it only the headers that of the Tracker Kit that I need to worry about not changing?
[00:37:26] * DaaT slaps JonathanThompson for that baaaaaaaad joke
[00:37:36] <saivert> Tronic: because you need to use binary drivers from ATI
[00:37:44] <JonathanThompson> kirilla: BFilePanel is sensitive binary-wise.
[00:37:50] <adamk_> I've had no issues with newer AMD graphics cards on linux.
[00:37:55] <BePhantom> ok, for instance: Asus M2n68-am + HD 4350, or Asus M4a78-em (with video onboard HD3200)
[00:38:00] <saivert> the open source driver are not ready for prime time on the HD series chips yet
[00:38:06] <JonathanThompson> Every app that doesn't roll their own file panel uses it.
[00:38:13] <Tronic> saivert: Those have their drawbacks as well, but granted, they are somewhat better.
[00:38:16] <BePhantom> which one is a better choice in your opinion?
[00:38:16] <adamk_> Heck, I've played openarena with my HD3450 with both fglrx and the open source drivers.
[00:38:20] <kirilla> JonathanThompson: acknowledged
[00:38:39] <saivert> just blame X.org
[00:38:44] <JonathanThompson> Other than that, as long as you don't change message constants that are used by other apps (are there any?) I wouldn't worry.
[00:38:46] <saivert> root of all evil
[00:39:04] <JonathanThompson> Oh, is there anything in regards to replicants that's special about Deskbar you'd need to worry about?
[00:39:09] <JonathanThompson> I think that covers all the issues :)
[00:39:41] <BePhantom> I feel ignored :D
[00:39:51] * OmniMancer shall try to write a prototype pure OO language thing with llvm
[00:39:57] <kirilla> JonathanThompson: yeah, message constants, scripting suite and dealing with repliants.. thanks, those are good things to keep as-is
[00:40:13] <OmniMancer> BePhantom: I feel ignored all the time, not so much in this channel though
[00:40:24] * JonathanThompson pointedly ignores BePhantom as he desires :)
[00:40:48] <JonathanThompson> OmniMancer: Object-oriented Brainfuck, I dare you! :P
[00:41:00] <JonathanThompson> (Should be quick and simple to create)
[00:41:00] * kirilla booms in the voice of Sauron... Omnimancer.. I SEE YOU!! ;)))
[00:41:18] <OmniMancer> nonononono
[00:41:25] <kirilla> quick hide!
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[00:42:05] <kirilla> llvm.. yum yum, gimme some!
[00:42:24] <saivert> http://www.dsource.org/projects/ldc
[00:42:35] <saivert> D compiler for LLVM
[00:42:56] <kirilla> ah :)
[00:43:26] <JonathanThompson> OmniMancer: just add a leading + or - for object method or static method :P
[00:43:29] <saivert> It's been a while since I last played with the D language. I liked it but it wasn't used much so I gave up on it
[00:43:50] *** skarmiglione has left #haiku
[00:44:10] <JonathanThompson> Or perhaps use a space or no space :)
[00:44:20] * JonathanThompson ponders OOBF
[00:45:02] <saivert> I never understood why C didn't have a native string type
[00:45:04] <saivert> which D has
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[00:45:24] <OmniMancer> C should always have had a string struct!!!
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[00:45:53] <OmniMancer> MrSunshine_: you gonna port LDC again?
[00:46:33] <stpere> JonathanThompson: you are more like OOBS
[00:46:36] <stpere> :)
[00:46:45] <JonathanThompson> OOBS? :)
[00:46:55] * JonathanThompson waits for it
[00:46:57] <stpere> Object-Oriented bull shit&
[00:47:02] <JonathanThompson> That
[00:47:10] <JonathanThompson> is what I thought you'd say :P
[00:47:18] * JonathanThompson feels honored, strangely
[00:47:22] <stpere> j/k
[00:47:34] <stpere> lol
[00:47:35] <kirilla> out-of bs?
[00:47:37] <stpere> my pleasure
[00:47:38] <kirilla> sorry, currently out of bs
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[00:47:57] <JonathanThompson> kirilla: that can be changed :)
[00:48:00] <saivert> you ran empty of bs?
[00:48:10] <saivert> but you might have some left over fud
[00:48:19] <kirilla> just add water! and my cup shall be overflowing yet again!
[00:48:25] <stpere> fud-ge
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[00:49:56] <kirilla> bluffer overrun, by fudged oo
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[00:51:02] * kirilla goes to inspect his damaged deskbar
[00:51:23] <saivert> I don't like Nautilus. Need a new file manager for my Ubuntu
[00:51:47] *** OmniMancer has quit IRC
[00:51:49] <saivert> Why are there huge icons everywhere in Ubuntu
[00:51:56] <kirilla> I wonder how well D would integrated with the Haiku API
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[00:54:43] <HaikuBot> kirilla: D ?
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[00:55:05] <umccullough> the language
[00:55:17] <HaikuBot> Plan to port it?
[00:55:25] <umccullough> iirc, it has been
[00:55:31] <umccullough> or had been to beos anyway
[00:55:39] <OmniMancer> there is an llvm compiler for it
[00:55:46] <HaikuBot> LDC
[00:56:09] <umccullough> http://bebits.com/app/4020 and http://bebits.com/app/4376 anyway
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[00:56:32] <HaikuBot> very old...
[00:56:45] <umccullough> yeah, someone was looking at a newer port a few months back
[00:56:48] <saivert> there is a D frontend to GCC as well
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[00:57:11] <umccullough> maybe a portlog for it, i dunno
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[00:57:16] <saivert> ahh that's 4376.. just checked the link now
[00:57:26] <umccullough> nope: http://ports.haiku-files.org/wiki/dev-lang/dmd-bin
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[00:58:26] <kirilla> I haven't used D, but reading about it was interesting. Looked promising
[00:58:33] <kirilla> a few years ago
[00:58:49] <umccullough> I've heard people claim it's perfect for Haiku :P
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[00:58:52] <umccullough> but i don't know why
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[00:59:09] <kirilla> if llvm and D worked well together.. :)
[00:59:10] <HaikuBot> i like D it would be nice to have it on haiku
[00:59:21] <OmniMancer> :)
[00:59:27] <HaikuBot> :)
[00:59:49] <OmniMancer> I need to finish making the patch for llvm then
[00:59:54] <kirilla> umccullough: dunno.. maybe the feeling that C++ isn't the most beautiful language
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[01:00:11] <saivert> It could be what ObjC is to Cocoa (Mac OS X). Like Haiku's own language.
[01:00:17] <OmniMancer> its gotten to the point where I know the changes so well I could apply them to a fresh checkout
[01:00:59] <saivert> but Haiku itself isn't written in D so...
[01:01:13] <OmniMancer> you have to write wrappers
[01:01:41] <kirilla> or we rewrite the upper layers to begin with ;)
[01:01:55] <HaikuBot> :)
[01:01:56] <OmniMancer> nononono that would defeat the c++ :P
[01:02:14] <saivert> yeah. rewrite all of Haiku in D.
[01:02:17] <saivert> go go go !
[01:02:22] <kirilla> heh :)
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[01:02:29] <OmniMancer> no!
[01:02:34] <OmniMancer> llvm won't work then :P
[01:02:42] * JonathanThompson tries to refresh his capacitors as to what the useful distinction is of D over C++
[01:02:42] <kirilla> why not?
[01:02:54] <kirilla> why won't it work?
[01:03:02] <saivert> D has native string type. That's reason enough
[01:03:04] <thowe> this libwalter stuff is going to save my life
[01:03:11] <OmniMancer> um
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[01:03:17] <OmniMancer> saivert: C++ has toooo!!
[01:03:22] <saivert> no. it's fake
[01:03:27] <saivert> based on C++ classes
[01:03:29] <OmniMancer> it is a string type
[01:03:32] <JonathanThompson> All that's real is fake!
[01:03:40] <OmniMancer> a class is a type
[01:03:40] <HaikuBot> I'm currently writing 3D chess on D.
[01:03:42] <StiffUpperLip> thowe: yes, when will libwalter be included (and renamed) into the standard haiku api?
[01:03:55] <OmniMancer> anyway I gotta go
[01:03:55] <OmniMancer> bbl
[01:04:02] <OmniMancer> bbl
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[01:04:22] <saivert> break back later
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[01:04:35] <thowe> StiffUpperLip, I don't know that.  I just need the spinner, the better text thing, and the splitterview
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[01:04:57] <StiffUpperLip> there's a ton of functions in there which really should be part of the base api methinks
[01:05:39] <thowe> StiffUpperLip, it appears that way to me too, but I am an outsider without an informed opinion, so there may be good reason it isn't.
[01:06:12] <thowe> I'm just used to Qt4 stuff, so these things fill a gap for me.
[01:06:35] <StiffUpperLip> for consistency I'd also like if the functions were prefixed with 'B'
[01:06:44] <saivert> microkernel in D: http://forum.osdev.org/viewtopic.php?p=146448&sid=32b0d4a6ae143369eaab8de33ffc9469#p146448
[01:07:07] <saivert> fuck.. session id is in there
[01:07:44] <thowe> StiffUpperLip, Hmm.  Would that not create possible collisions?  I half expected them to have a "W".
[01:08:01] <thowe> I guess there are namespaces or such, but whatver...
[01:08:19] <thowe> or maybe an 'H'
[01:09:16] <StiffUpperLip> are there functions that would collide? I thought these were all new
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[01:11:32] <thowe> well, for example there is AutoTextControl, which is an improved BTextControl
[01:12:09] <thowe> I guess you could call it BAutoTextControl, but I would sooner see it replace the old one if it were to become part of the base lib.
[01:13:02] <thowe> but these things are not for me to decide...  I have some faith that the Haiku guys, who use this stuff way more than I do, will do what makes sense.
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[01:14:06] <thowe> TextFile is really just BFile with one added method...
[01:17:05] <thowe> that combobox is really gonna help a brothu out too...
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[01:18:35] <thowe> pff.  brotha.  that will teach me to attempt to use colloquialisms
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[01:24:43] <saivert> this is the sex: http://www.kde-look.org/content/show.php/LCARS+Grub+GFXMenu?content=62209
[01:24:48] <saivert> LCARS boot menu
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[01:26:31] <StiffUpperLip> thowe: yeah I agree that the devs will sort it out for the best, well off to snoggle with the missus... sleep tight folks!
[01:26:59] <kirilla> you too StiffUpperLip
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[01:29:09] <HaikuBot> http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/3677/screenshot5qc.png
[01:29:13] <HaikuBot> :)
[01:30:43] <CIA-46> kirilla * r33377 /haiku/trunk/src/apps/deskbar/ (39 files): Removing ifdefs and code for non-Haiku build targets. Partial clean-up. Enforcing the 80-char limit, renaming constants, newline at end of file.
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[02:01:02] <CIA-46> kirilla * r33378 /haiku/trunk/src/ (13 files in 6 dirs): Standardizing on BWindow::CenterOnScreen()
[02:12:43] <CIA-46> kirilla * r33379 /haiku/trunk/src/apps/installer/ (InstallerApp.cpp InstallerWindow.cpp): Standardize on BWindow::CenterOnScreen().
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[02:21:08] <OmniMancer> how does merge normally work?
[02:21:20] <umccullough_aa1> merge?
[02:21:24] <umccullough_aa1> as in patch ?
[02:21:31] <umccullough_aa1> or, svn merge?
[02:21:46] <OmniMancer> as in I have a file with changes I want to apply it to a file without the changes...
[02:21:55] <OmniMancer> which might have other changes
[02:22:01] <kirilla> patch < path-file
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[02:22:09] <umccullough_aa1> first you need to create a patch
[02:22:13] <OmniMancer> I do not have a patch file
[02:22:19] <kirilla> oh
[02:22:29] <umccullough_aa1> you need to have a version of the file without changes first :P
[02:22:37] <OmniMancer> how does svn take the local copy and the new copy and staple them together?
[02:22:57] <umccullough_aa1> svn knows what version of a local copy you have
[02:23:02] <OmniMancer> okay
[02:23:06] <OmniMancer> that is most annoying :(
[02:23:18] <OmniMancer> I shall just apply the changes mannually then I know them by heart
[02:23:26] <kirilla> no, that's the point :)
[02:23:55] <umccullough_aa1> that way when you svn up - it just patches your modified version with the changes from the version you started with to the version you updated to
[02:24:06] <umccullough_aa1> that's sanity!
[02:24:16] <OmniMancer> yes of course
[02:24:18] <OmniMancer> it is sane
[02:24:21] <kirilla> after you changes, you can ask for it to create a patch, by typing "svn diff"
[02:24:27] <umccullough_aa1> right
[02:24:31] <kirilla> which you can share
[02:24:39] <umccullough_aa1> and then you can apply it again later
[02:24:49] <umccullough_aa1> you can also undo your local changes with svn revert
[02:24:56] <OmniMancer> yea I had a problem with that due to my .svn dirs being messed up
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[02:25:01] <umccullough_aa1> uh oh
[02:25:08] <umccullough_aa1> yeah, that's bad news :)
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[02:25:17] <kirilla> different svn versions?
[02:25:25] <OmniMancer> no
[02:25:30] <OmniMancer> missing files :D
[02:25:53] <OmniMancer> I think it's a combination of copying it off of BFS in linux then back from ext2 in haiku
[02:26:06] <OmniMancer> something got left out
[02:26:23] <OmniMancer> or an svn up had removed files but not something else
[02:26:53] <umccullough_aa1> best you could do is svn co the exact same revision into a new directory, then copy your modified version over it
[02:27:20] <umccullough_aa1> then you'll be set to update
[02:27:47] <OmniMancer> na
[02:27:54] <OmniMancer> I know the changes I made by heart :P
[02:28:27] <OmniMancer> its like 2 source changes and a configure.ac change
[02:28:43] <kirilla> I'm off to bed..
[02:28:46] <kirilla> night!
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[02:52:25] <OmniMancer> I made the patch ofr llvm
[02:52:39] <OmniMancer> unfortunately I need to submit a patch to the haiku ports too
[02:52:52] <OmniMancer> because you have to change one makefile in a non portable way to make it work
[02:53:05] <OmniMancer> anyway bye
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[03:08:56] <{V}> g'dnight
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[03:13:51] <AlonzoTG> om
[03:14:15] * AlonzoTG actually has a BeOS 5.0 machine.
[03:14:19] <AlonzoTG> still mostly intact,
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[03:14:35] <AlonzoTG> might even be net worthy... (currently booted into linux running several servers).
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[03:18:47] <geist> ...
[03:20:17] <AlonzoTG> =P
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[03:27:05] <thowe> hi
[03:27:15] <AlonzoTG> wut?
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[03:42:11] <thowe> I think I need an "svn for git users" tutorial.
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[03:42:37] <AlonzoTG> ...
[03:42:40] <AlonzoTG> =#
[03:43:03] *** ChanServ sets mode: +o mmadia
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[03:44:08] <thowe> how do I tell svn my name and email address when doing a commit?
[03:44:52] <stpere> you have an account..
[03:45:22] <AlonzoTG> would it be sane of me to install haiku over a BeOS 5 partition?
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[03:45:39] <thowe> no
[03:46:21] <stpere> you need one to commit
[03:46:29] <stpere> and commits rights
[03:47:45] <mmadia> from the top level directory,  do  `svn diff > ~/name.patch`
[03:47:51] <saivert> AlonzoTG: I never even do inline updates of Linux/Windows. and you contemplate installing over BeOS?
[03:47:53] <thowe> hmm.  OK.  I've only ever used git and you just tell it "this is who I am" and commit locally.  That must be the "distributed" part and where it differs.
[03:48:41] <AlonzoTG> good point...
[03:48:56] <AlonzoTG> but in the good old days, you could do that all you wanted to a DOS partition with no ill effects. =P
[03:49:33] <AlonzoTG> I think I might have some free sectors on this machine, but then I'm reluctant to take it offline, especially since the newer linux kernels crash my sound card. =(
[03:49:36] <thowe> You could install DOS, if those old days were really so good ;)
[03:49:38] <stpere> saivert: you never update your linux?
[03:50:01] <AlonzoTG> I last installed my Linux machine in 2004.
[03:51:24] <saivert> I meant upgrade
[03:51:33] <saivert> of course I run component updates
[03:51:57] <saivert> well... DOS is not really a complex OS is it?
[03:52:22] <AlonzoTG> no, and that's the point.
[03:52:25] <AlonzoTG> =)
[03:52:36] <AlonzoTG> I have a friend of mine who is a squeak and beos fanatic.
[03:52:39] <saivert> well Haiku is, believe it or not
[03:52:50] <AlonzoTG> he's been wanting to get Open Croquet running on it for many years now.
[03:53:02] <jmayfield__> bitch bitch linux moan bitch rms moan moan xorg bitch
[03:53:27] <saivert> haha
[03:53:29] <AlonzoTG> Hey, I've got a point. The 2.6.30.x crashes my flaming sound card.
[03:53:37] <saivert> yeah. it can be summarized as that jmayfield
[03:54:01] <saivert> rms is a self-centered prick and xorg is evil
[03:54:02] <jmayfield__> this channel? yeah totally
[03:54:21] <saivert> Linux Torvalds on the other hand is very cool
[03:54:27] <jmayfield__> i really like rms, and x(org) for that matter
[03:54:56] <AlonzoTG> I'm more of a tannenbaum fan...
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[03:55:17] <AlonzoTG> Minix is about an inch and a half away from being a Good Operating system (tm).
[03:55:18] <AlonzoTG> =(
[03:55:46] <jmayfield__> i dont care about oses.. i care about philosophy and ideals
[03:55:48] <saivert> the big microkernel vs monolithic kernel debate
[03:56:07] <saivert> it will never end
[03:56:28] * AlonzoTG is a microkernel fan.
[03:56:29] <AlonzoTG> =P
[03:56:33] <AlonzoTG> =)))
[03:56:57] <AlonzoTG> Want to know why my sound card driver crashes my linux machine? BECAUSE IT'S PART OF THE KERNEL!!!
[03:57:19] <ari-free> i like haiku because it gets us away from all the politics
[03:57:33] <jmayfield__> no it doesnt
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[03:57:42] <saivert> you wish
[03:57:49] <saivert> there is politics in everything
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[03:58:07] <ari-free> no eulas, no gpl, just the source
[03:58:07] <umccullough> haiku's own community is fully of politics ;)
[03:58:22] <umccullough> full*
[03:58:28] <surrounder> saivert: beer and a good steak excluded
[03:58:50] <umccullough> no politics in beer?
[03:58:52] <ari-free> no theo and no rms
[03:59:04] <surrounder> theo++
[03:59:09] <umccullough> theo isn't all that bad IMO, he's just very abbrasive ;)
[03:59:12] <jmayfield__> mention gpl and watch the "politics" fireworks go off here
[03:59:15] <jmayfield__> or rms
[03:59:20] <jmayfield__> or etc etc
[03:59:31] <AlonzoTG> rms can byte me.
[03:59:45] <AlonzoTG> u know, his name is the one on the cover of the GCC manual,
[03:59:53] <jmayfield__> because *insert some emotially charged BS reason*
[04:00:04] <ari-free> though theo can say anything he wants but doesn't push that to anyone who wants to use openbsd
[04:00:08] <AlonzoTG> but then when I spent $80, printed it out, and tried to read the thing, and then asked him about it, he swore that he had nothing to do with the project anymore.
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[04:01:17] <jmayfield__> i dunno.. but i would guess that the average anti-gpl sentiment is about as meaningful and thought-through as the average americans fear of 'socialized medicine'
[04:01:18] <surrounder> jmayfield__: some politics/passionate ideas make things a lot more fun!
[04:01:29] <surrounder> thank odin people have different opinions
[04:01:30] <jmayfield__> surrounder, i agree
[04:01:31] <jmayfield__> hehe
[04:01:47] <ari-free> there was one time that really bothered me about something in the haiku list and that was about not being able to print a nice manual because we want to save the trees
[04:02:08] <jmayfield__> ya dont need trees for paper
[04:02:19] <AlonzoTG> I still have a copy of the beos bible.
[04:02:34] <surrounder> ari-free: plant a new one for every person you convert to Haiku when it R1 arrives
[04:02:35] <ari-free> there are plenty of trees for paper
[04:02:42] <surrounder> mother earth would love you! :P
[04:02:58] <surrounder> meh
[04:02:59] <ari-free> i don't want the OS to tell me I need to plant a tree
[04:03:22] <jmayfield__> if you need an os to tell you the importance of trees, you have MUCH larger problems
[04:04:02] <surrounder> you could also look at it differently, if there's more demand for ebookreaders those devices will become less expensive ari-free :P
[04:04:20] <surrounder> gawd I sound like a treehugger
[04:04:33] * surrounder picks up a random axe and starts chopping wood
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[04:04:55] <ari-free> i don't hate trees. i just don't want the OS to get into that issue
[04:05:06] <AlonzoTG> Both PDF readers on my aging linux machines are at least two orders of magnitude too slow to be used as an actual e-book reader.
[04:05:18] <surrounder> lot of customers of ours also have a line like that in their customers ari-free
[04:05:24] <joeyadams> Perhaps an environmental Haiku fork is in order?  :D
[04:05:27] <surrounder> think it's a hip manager thingy to  do or something
[04:05:39] <surrounder> lol
[04:05:43] <surrounder> *in their signatures
[04:05:46] <surrounder> *cough*
[04:05:54] * surrounder pokes JonathanThompson
[04:06:03] * ari-free peeks
[04:06:07] <jmayfield__> ari-free, why does it bother you so much?
[04:06:30] <umccullough> i suspect he just doesn't want his OS to come with a political message
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[04:06:44] <surrounder> makes sense
[04:06:45] <ari-free> because it may mean the OS prevents the user from printing
[04:06:53] <jmayfield__> uhm.. ok
[04:06:58] <ari-free> or printing effectively
[04:07:18] <jmayfield__> not wanting to contribute to the depletion of earths resources is hardly a political issue
[04:07:22] <AlonzoTG> LINUX PREVENTS ME FROM PRINTING BECAUSE IT SUCKS!!!
[04:07:32] * surrounder pets AlonzoTG
[04:08:05] <AlonzoTG> Kde3 had a pretty good CPUS manager, that managed to maintain a crappy but usable driver for my printer.
[04:08:07] <ari-free> so recycle paper. but that's not what the OS can do
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[04:08:23] <ari-free> it shouldn't force you to save paper by not printing
[04:08:30] <AlonzoTG> but that's gone away and now I can't configure my printer, the driver suggested by the website can't even detect that I own a printer!!!
[04:08:31] <umccullough> reminds me of the request in our forums that the Haiku project state that they believe in god
[04:08:33] <umccullough> er, God
[04:08:59] <AlonzoTG> Fuck you, god.
[04:09:01] <ari-free> when did that happen
[04:09:15] <mmadia> oh, the daemon thread?
[04:09:18] <umccullough> we finally locked the thread ;)
[04:09:29] <umccullough> but it was quite amusing
[04:09:30] <jmayfield__> heh
[04:09:32] <umccullough> http://www.haiku-os.org/community/forum/god_haiku_and_bsd_daemons
[04:09:34] * AlonzoTG does everything humanly possible to avoid forums.
[04:09:39] <surrounder> AlonzoTG: read a manual or two about cups and stop blaming your GUI instead, kde3 doesn't have anything todo with cups
[04:10:04] <jmayfield__> ari-free, restricting you from printing seems mostly retarded.. but discouraging it is a fine thing
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[04:10:16] <AlonzoTG> Correct, but KDE had a user interface that made it possible for me, a mere mortal, to obtain a working printer configuration in a very timely manner.
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[04:10:37] <ari-free> how does an OS discourage you from printing by not restricting it?
[04:11:04] <surrounder> AlonzoTG: start poking your $distro_maintainer about that instead of just saying an OS sucks
[04:11:04] <jmayfield__> i dunno.. i had no idea somebody went to the trouble of actually restricting it
[04:11:33] <jmayfield__> i thought you were talking about messages like "hey, try to not print this shit out unless you really need to.. " etc
[04:12:01] <ari-free> yeah but even that is just...annoying
[04:12:15] <jmayfield__> more annoying than it not being gpl?
[04:12:23] <jmayfield__> ..cause thats kinda annoying to me..
[04:12:25] <jmayfield__> but hey
[04:12:28] <surrounder> lol
[04:12:35] <ari-free> nobody is annoyed it isn't gpl
[04:12:42] <jmayfield__> i am
[04:12:47] <ari-free> ok. you are
[04:12:51] <jmayfield__> right
[04:13:01] <surrounder> or wrong
[04:13:05] <surrounder> let's make sentences!
[04:13:27] <ari-free> so fork it and in your gpl fork you can add such messages
[04:13:39] <saivert> AlonzoTG: timely manner on my Linux? Blasphemy
[04:13:47] <saivert> everything on a Linux system takes ages
[04:14:10] <surrounder> ctrl+alt+backspace gets you out of X quite soon really :P
[04:14:11] <jmayfield__> ari-free, not the point.. i was just curious what annoyed you.. i assumed you were talkign about messages not actual restrictions
[04:14:40] <AlonzoTG> That's just it.
[04:14:44] <AlonzoTG> I need to be earning money.
[04:14:52] <surrounder> same here
[04:14:53] <AlonzoTG> I simply can't afford to spend any time on Linux.
[04:15:00] <surrounder> <- linux sysadmin
[04:15:07] <surrounder> different tools for different jobs
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[04:15:15] <AlonzoTG> BeOS was very good to me, for quite a while.
[04:15:29] <jmayfield__> i spend all day (being paid) using linux.. heh
[04:15:32] <surrounder> BeOS/Haiku is the way a GUI-based OS should be for me
[04:15:46] <ari-free> I'm talking about both though obviously the restrictions triggered an unnecessary debate IMHO
[04:15:47] <surrounder> love unix on the servers I work with though
[04:16:02] <umccullough> oh wait, osnews posted an article about operating systems and politics
[04:16:07] <ari-free> noooo
[04:16:48] <AlonzoTG> BeOS has many features that linux developers are too dim-witted to even dream about. =P
[04:16:52] <jmayfield__> surrounder, we have linux on most of our desktops too.. its the straggler windows desktops/workstations that seem to cause the most issues
[04:17:19] <jmayfield__> mainly slowness
[04:17:24] <AlonzoTG> database filesystems; GUI tools for configuring and diagnosing hardware issues, powerful multithreading.
[04:17:27] <surrounder> jmayfield__: aah ok, desktop usage I assume ?
[04:17:56] <jmayfield__> surrounder, i work in the digital film industry.. linux is an absolute godsend
[04:18:17] <surrounder> hehe nice! no experience with that :)
[04:18:42] <jmayfield__> its just so much more flexible
[04:18:47] <surrounder> work at an ISP so I mainly stare at terminals :P
[04:18:51] <jmayfield__> ah
[04:18:53] <jmayfield__> heh
[04:19:32] <AlonzoTG> I kick the server down at my company every now and then,
[04:19:35] <surrounder> still, the windows 2003 and windows 2008 servers aren't that bad either
[04:19:41] <AlonzoTG> I am barely good enough to make it work, some of the time.
[04:19:44] <surrounder> on the desktop windows is a pure disaster though
[04:20:15] <jmayfield__> we are still saddled with a f'ing exchange serve
[04:20:21] <jmayfield__> i want it to die!
[04:20:23] <jmayfield__> heh
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[04:20:36] <thowe> we kicked the exchange server out of our company
[04:20:57] <jmayfield__> most users rdp into windows vm's for all their mail/calendar stuff
[04:21:02] <jmayfield__> ..which is hilarious
[04:21:10] <surrounder> lol
[04:21:18] <AlonzoTG> I have a mission critical application that is implemented in visual basic embedded into a pile of excel spreadsheets. =0
[04:21:20] <jmayfield__> i just deal with imp
[04:21:21] <jmayfield__> imap
[04:21:29] <surrounder> jmayfield__: evolution can use MAPI :P
[04:21:34] <AlonzoTG> My job now is to rewrite it.
[04:21:46] <jmayfield__> surrounder, our exchange server is too new for evolution
[04:21:55] <jmayfield__> so i have to use imap.. but its ok for me
[04:21:57] <surrounder> AlonzoTG: I really feel sorry for you
[04:21:59] <thowe> Heh, I'm rewriting a word-based app myself..
[04:22:00] <jmayfield__> i dont mind missing the odd meeting
[04:22:01] <jmayfield__> hehe
[04:22:03] <surrounder> AlonzoTG: respect is the word too
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[04:22:20] <umccullough> ari-free, i suspect you'll be mod'd offtopic since you didn't really read much of the article ;)
[04:22:29] <AlonzoTG> right now I'm doing the new version in MySQL and Java.
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[04:22:50] <ari-free> yeah i did
[04:22:51] <jmayfield__> AlonzoTG, i'll save you the inevitable problems.. avoid mysql!
[04:23:05] <AlonzoTG> I've had extremely good luck with MySQL.
[04:23:17] <AlonzoTG> But then I'm not very advanced.
[04:23:17] <umccullough> ari-free, it was only drawing parallels between different types of political views, and how an OS works for the user
[04:23:25] <surrounder> AlonzoTG: http://www.postgresql.org/
[04:24:02] <jmayfield__> mysql scales like complete shit
[04:24:08] <ari-free> yes but people take those parallels and use the OS as a reflection of their politics
[04:24:17] * JonathanThompson has worked with postgresql code, or something derived from it in his last job
[04:24:43] <surrounder> still have to see postgresql die on our of our customers servers
[04:24:47] <surrounder> not nice while being on call
[04:25:01] <surrounder> mysql dies quite regularly
[04:25:14] <jmayfield__> its very easy to kill a mysql server
[04:25:20] <ari-free> you're not a liberal just because you use a mac. you're not an anarchist just because you use linux
[04:25:28] *** spvensko has quit IRC
[04:25:30] <jmayfield__> just ramp up the concurrency
[04:25:30] *** spvensko_ is now known as spvensko
[04:25:31] <umccullough> ari-free, it's probably true also - I bet there's a large faction of democratic-types who use OS X
[04:25:31] <surrounder> true, it's also due to the programmers, but still
[04:26:27] <jmayfield__> i am a solcialist-leaning linux user who would punch libertarianism in the head if it was a person
[04:26:32] <jmayfield__> :-p
[04:26:46] <umccullough> heh
[04:26:51] * thowe high-fives jmayfield__
[04:26:53] <ari-free> many haiku devs were perfectly happy when beOS was closed source. they didn't 'believe' in open source. they just felt that as a matter of practicality that haiku should be open source
[04:27:09] <surrounder> <- somewhat rightwing (well, dutch right wing, prolly comparable to US treehuggers :P)
[04:27:14] <surrounder> love open source though
[04:27:18] <umccullough> i tend to lean conservative with some libertarian tendencies (namely, goverment shouldn't be involved in every aspect of our lives)
[04:27:55] <jmayfield__> i agree.. not every.. but absolutely some
[04:28:04] <surrounder> the less the better
[04:28:17] <jmayfield__> depends
[04:28:18] <umccullough> i think less than currently tbh - but that's just my opinion of course :P
[04:28:32] <umccullough> probably partially because i live in the middle of nowhere
[04:28:35] <jmayfield__> if its a personal issue, fuck the govt
[04:29:08] <jmayfield__> but what other than govt is there to serve as a mechanism for shared/public interests, like health, edu, road works, etc?
[04:29:12] <surrounder> well peeps, nice chat and enjoy your evenings/days/nights
[04:29:15] * surrounder zz
[04:29:19] <thowe> gov can be a mechanism for scaling cooperation.  beyond that I see it as suspect and deserving of scrutiny
[04:29:28] <jmayfield__> absolutely
[04:29:54] <jmayfield__> its corporations masked as govt that is really what most people fear
[04:30:10] <jmayfield__> corps and churches
[04:30:12] <jmayfield__> heh
[04:30:35] <ari-free> you can choose corps and churches. if you don't pay them you won't be taken by the IRS
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[04:30:46] <jmayfield__> i have a very traditional notion of govt.. which is as stated above, a mechanism for public cooperation
[04:30:48] <AlonzoTG> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QSMyY3_dmrM  Like the gubbernment??? WATCH THIS VIDEO!!
[04:30:50] <ari-free> if you don't pay the govt, you're screwed
[04:30:58] <thowe> but, in the US anyway, it is just a legitimizing force for corporate power
[04:31:33] <thowe> there I go being off-topic again
[04:31:33] <jmayfield__> ari-free, you have no vote in matters of corps and chuches.. you can empeach a ceo or board
[04:31:41] <thowe> Isn't it awesome we have Haiku now!
[04:31:48] <jmayfield__> impeach
[04:31:55] <AlonzoTG> agreed,
[04:31:56] <AlonzoTG> impeach.
[04:32:16] <thowe> Not sure why BeZilla is acting so slow, though...
[04:32:27] <AlonzoTG> Obama has violated the constitution and his oath of office by swearing an oath to the UN charter and chairing a session of the security council of the UN.
[04:32:32] <thowe> I just figured out I could have multi-tabs in Terminal
[04:32:32] <ari-free> why shouldn't i impeach a ceo...i just don't buy their product
[04:32:37] <JonathanThompson> jmayfield__: you don't depend on churches and corps to protect your physical well-being and you aren't drafted by them in times of war.
[04:32:51] <ari-free> should
[04:32:52] <JonathanThompson> You can choose to work for/with them, but you aren't forced to: well, at least not in the US.
[04:32:53] <jmayfield__> ari-free, if you have no money with which to "vote", then what?
[04:33:08] <ari-free> i do vote...by not buying from them!
[04:33:30] <ari-free> nobody forces me to buy from them
[04:33:35] <jmayfield__> but when your neighbor who has milliions of votes..er, dollars, and he buys only form them, then what?
[04:33:42] <jmayfield__> voting with dolaars is a load of shit
[04:33:45] <JonathanThompson> Just don't sell your soul to the company store ;)
[04:34:01] <JonathanThompson> He who has the gold makes the rules :P
[04:34:03] <jmayfield__> one person, one vote
[04:34:10] <umccullough_aa1> you vote with dollars and word-of-mouth :)
[04:34:18] <ari-free> so let him...doesn't bother me one bit. if he wants to screw the company to the ground then that's his company he just lost
[04:34:20] <umccullough_aa1> influential people affect votes
[04:34:36] <JonathanThompson> Even a piss-poor person can spread the word that's negative or positive about a company/church.
[04:34:39] <jmayfield__> only in non-democracies
[04:35:07] * JonathanThompson awaits the Costa Rica speech
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[04:38:19] <jmayfield__> anyway, i just dunno whats wrong with letting the people be the drivers via govt mechanisms.. why mix in nonsense like dollars and lobbying nd whatnot
[04:38:43] <ari-free> or to be on topic i don't want the govt to get people to switch from windows to linux. I think there are a lot of reasons why people like windows and it is not because microsoft is an evil monopoly
[04:39:19] <thowe> I like Haiku.  Lets all work together to make it better!
[04:39:41] <AlonzoTG> infowars.com
[04:39:43] <jmayfield__> ari-free, a govt foricng people to use a or b is just lame.. switch govt machines to one os or another is fine..
[04:40:30] <ari-free> i would be in favor of switching govt pc's...but to what? I don't think linux or mac can justify themselves for the desktop
[04:40:53] <ari-free> what microsoft did was to make a coherent OS for any PC out there
[04:41:02] <ari-free> that's why they won
[04:41:18] <jmayfield__> JonathanThompson, actually, we do depend on corporations for general well being in this country.. the mushing together of govt and private industry is here is very scarey
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[04:42:32] <JonathanThompson> Tell me this: do you know of a government that doesn't utilize corporate contractors to do things like produce things that have to be made?  It's not a good thing to have an overarching government make/do everything.
[04:43:00] <jmayfield__> thats not the arguement
[04:43:00] <JonathanThompson> There's no perfect solution I can see, as long as large governments at a high level are needed.
[04:43:14] <jmayfield__> its about what leads what
[04:43:20] <JonathanThompson> Oh, ok....
[04:43:42] <jmayfield__> i am not anti-private industry
[04:43:45] <jmayfield__> not at all
[04:43:54] <JonathanThompson> IF you were, you'd be in trouble right now :P
[04:44:01] <jmayfield__> heh
[04:44:31] <ari-free> govt can fund large projects but generally short on ideas for carrying them out
[04:44:42] <jmayfield__> the pressures and motivations for corporations are different than public interests.. there needs to be a divide
[04:45:07] <jmayfield__> ari-free, govt is just people..same people that might be in corps
[04:45:29] <ari-free> they are people with power
[04:45:37] <jmayfield__> which?
[04:45:41] <ari-free> the govt
[04:45:52] <jmayfield__> and corps have no govt influence?
[04:45:57] <jmayfield__> more than people do
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[04:46:09] <jmayfield__> they have more than ordinary people do
[04:46:16] <ari-free> there are all kinds of corps
[04:47:09] <jmayfield__> pretty muich everythign that sucks about our current implementation of govt flows from influence of private indystry using its ability to vote with dollars and craft laws that keep the dollars flowing
[04:48:43] <ari-free> thats what happens when you have such a big govt that tries to do everything
[04:49:05] <kad77> hey, i was afk -- so, is this #haiku or a contentious endless politcal discussion. I may have teh wrong window open
[04:49:17] <umccullough_aa1> my bad
[04:49:27] <JonathanThompson> kad77: where has that ever been untrue? :)
[04:49:28] <umccullough_aa1> i mentioned the osnews political article :(
[04:49:42] <ari-free> oh so heh i said the one thing I like about haiku was... :)
[04:49:52] <jmayfield__> heh
[04:49:52] <kad77> :-) lol, folks, just thought I'd throw a bomb out there.
[04:49:55] <ari-free> not so much politics
[04:50:01] <jmayfield__> i am just interested in talking about shit
[04:50:29] <umccullough_aa1> i know a little bit about duck shit
[04:50:38] <JonathanThompson> Bombs are less controversial :P
[04:50:51] * ari-free drops a logic bomb
[04:50:53] * JonathanThompson bows before umccullough_aa1 and his duck shit knowledge
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[04:51:28] <ari-free> the next sentence is true. the previous sentence is false.
[04:51:45] <JonathanThompson> And neither sentence is.
[04:52:12] <kad77> you know, what I continually like about this OS is the steady progress. even though the mailing list has been slow, it's all been good stuff lately
[04:52:20] <ari-free> wait how does that work
[04:52:38] <kad77> whats the estimate on the alpha 1 installs? 75-100k?
[04:53:55] * AlonzoTG liked having mail stored in directories instead of burried in obfuscated, hidden subfolders like seamonkey does it.
[04:54:04] <AlonzoTG> I could even drag mail to the desktop.
[04:54:05] <AlonzoTG> =P
[04:54:51] <umccullough_aa1> kad77 we don't know
[04:55:06] <umccullough_aa1> we know how many download clicks, that's all
[04:56:05] <kad77> yeah, and no real torrent stats I'd guess. oh well, maybe R1 can have a little reminder app popup after the network is detected to volunatily submit a stat or something useful
[04:56:05] <umccullough_aa1> kad77 we recorded 41k download clicks
[04:56:24] <JonathanThompson> And that's just what Haiku could track!
[04:56:27] <umccullough_aa1> that includes .torrent file clicks from our download page
[04:57:01] <kad77> umccullough_aa1: oh, i saw ryan's page but it didn't show torrents right. i assumed they weren't working
[04:57:10] <umccullough_aa1> they're on there
[04:57:19] <kad77> <-- human error likely
[04:57:33] <umccullough_aa1> problem is, a lot of places like slashdot, etc. had the torrent URLs posted directly in their comments :(
[04:57:45] <umccullough_aa1> so, we didn't record those clicks as a result
[04:58:06] <kad77> I'm not a torrent expert, if haiku-os.org had a tracker in the mix, couldn't that take care of that issue in the future?
[04:58:13] <umccullough_aa1> yes
[04:58:33] <umccullough_aa1> but that can be a real PITA as the tracker tends to take a huge hit
[04:59:04] <umccullough_aa1> I will try to find a good set of trackers next time that can report stats
[04:59:34] <umccullough_aa1> the ones we chose were already flaking big time :)
[04:59:34] <kad77> maybe when the haiku non profit meets, they can talk about a community fund for a extra server for release stuff, or bandwidth upgrade, whatever. I'd chip in $50 for that
[04:59:41] <thowe> umccullough_aa1: you got a second to talk about some Doxygen stuff?
[04:59:51] <umccullough_aa1> kad77 we're already upgrading to a dedicated server
[04:59:58] <umccullough_aa1> thowe not really :(
[05:00:07] <umccullough_aa1> and i know little about doxygen
[05:00:13] <umccullough_aa1> actually...nothing pretty much
[05:00:16] <thowe> Who is the one to talk to?
[05:00:36] <JonathanThompson> The hand!
[05:00:43] <CIA-46> bonefish * r33380 /haiku/trunk/ (2 files in 2 dirs): Added debug_strlcpy() for use in the kernel debugger.
[05:00:47] <thowe> I don't either, but this doesn't seem to do what they think it does...
[05:01:25] <CIA-46> bonefish * r33381 /haiku/trunk/src/system/kernel/ (arch/x86/arch_debug.cpp elf.cpp):
[05:01:25] <CIA-46> Fixed incorrect uses of user_{strl,mem}cpy() in the kernel debugger. This could
[05:01:25] <CIA-46> break stack traces.
[05:01:26] <umccullough_aa1> thowe probably niels is the one to chat with
[05:01:33] <thowe> k
[05:01:40] <kad77> looks like the wifi guy (colin?) has been hacking away recently. whats his nick?
[05:02:06] <CIA-46> bonefish * r33382 /haiku/trunk/src/system/kernel/disk_device_manager/ddm_userland_interface.cpp: Fixed incorrect return value of _user_get_file_disk_device_path().
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[05:02:36] <umccullough> kad77, he uses several, but he's not here atm anyway
[05:02:37] <CIA-46> bonefish * r33383 /haiku/trunk/src/system/kernel/disk_device_manager/KFileDiskDevice.cpp: The B_DISK_DEVICE_IS_FILE flag is cleared by KDiskDevice and needs to be reset.
[05:02:44] <umccullough> kad77, i'm using his 308 build on my AA1 now :)
[05:02:53] <umccullough_aa1> completely wifi in haiku with vision :D
[05:03:15] <CIA-46> bonefish * r33384 /haiku/trunk/src/bin/ (Jamfile diskimage.cpp):
[05:03:15] <CIA-46> Implemented small tool diskimage, which allows to register/unregister files
[05:03:15] <CIA-46> as disk devices. It also demonstrates that the respective devfs functionality
[05:03:15] <CIA-46> is utterly broken.
[05:03:51] <umccullough> bbiab
[05:04:00] <kad77> nice! i think the freebsd 8 release and the recent interest in running haiku on netbooks is giving him a boost. looks like he got some good feedback on the threading issues
[05:04:21] <kad77> bye umccullough , i'm off to bed. bye jt
[05:04:56] <CIA-46> bonefish * r33385 /haiku/trunk/ (12 files in 3 dirs): (log message trimmed)
[05:04:56] <CIA-46> * VFS:
[05:04:56] <CIA-46> It was always resolving symlinks.
[05:04:58] <CIA-46> * device manager/devfs:
[05:06:16] <CIA-46> bonefish * r33386 /haiku/trunk/ (17 files in 12 dirs): (log message trimmed)
[05:06:16] <CIA-46> * <DiskDeviceTypes.h>: Removed kPartitionTypeIntel{Primary,Logical} constants.
[05:06:16] <CIA-46> * Added new header headers/private/system/disk_device_types.h, which defines
[05:06:16] <CIA-46> the <DiskDeviceTypes.h> constants as macros and which can be used where the
[05:06:16] <CIA-46> constants cannot be used. The constants are defined using the macros, so now
[05:06:19] <CIA-46> there's only one place where the string literals should be specified.
[05:06:21] <CIA-46> * Use the macros in the partitioning systems. I was too lazy to also adjust the
[05:06:58] <CIA-46> bonefish * r33387 /haiku/trunk/ (5 files in 2 dirs):
[05:06:58] <CIA-46> Moved vmdkimage.h to a shareable place, cleaned it up a bit, and renamed it to
[05:06:58] <CIA-46> vmdk.h.
[05:07:27] <CIA-46> bonefish * r33388 /haiku/trunk/src/add-ons/kernel/partitioning_systems/ (Jamfile vmdk/ vmdk/Jamfile vmdk/vmdk.cpp):
[05:07:27] <CIA-46> Implemented a "vmdk" partitioning system. It allows to access the contents of
[05:07:27] <CIA-46> monolithic vmware images as produced by the build system (by registering such
[05:07:28] <CIA-46> an image via the "diskimage" tool).
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[05:09:16] <JonathanThompson> Seems bonefish has committed a bunch of things in a quick batch (script-driven submit?) :)
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[05:41:45] <thowe> JonathanThompson: knowing nothig about it, I would think it more likely it is a timed update to IRC that picked up changes since it last ran, but I could be very wrong.
[05:42:01] <JonathanThompson> r
[05:42:05] <JonathanThompson> True enough.
[05:42:16] <JonathanThompson> Somehow or other, though, likely a bunch of scripted updates :p
[05:42:29] <JonathanThompson> That is, there's a script involved somewhere.
[05:42:29] <jmayfield__> stinkin' scripts
[05:42:57] <thowe> Am I that rusty or are there two completely different coding conventions used in USB3.h for the structs?
[05:43:08] <JonathanThompson> Yes.
[05:44:03] <kwag> USB3? Does Haiku already have V3?
[05:44:17] <jmayfield__> anybody happen to be a zsh user?
[05:44:26] <thowe> there's some code for it in the trunk, but I don't know if it works
[05:44:36] <thowe> jmayfield__: yes, actually.
[05:44:44] * JonathanThompson wonders if there are actually USB3 devices out already
[05:44:45] <thowe> not on Haiku, though :P
[05:45:05] <jmayfield__> thowe, i've been trying it out lately.. why do you use it?
[05:45:07] <kwag> Wow (Applause!)
[05:45:30] <thowe> jmayfield__: I like how it behaves.
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[05:45:57] <thowe> and I like some of the advanced scripting features
[05:46:26] <thowe> It just seems to act like I want it to.  Maybe it will fit you too(?)
[05:47:02] <thowe> I also have a book with some cool techniques in it, so maybe that makes some difference.
[05:47:09] <kwag> Anyone knows if there's work been done on INTEL video drivers? (GMA Chipsets)
[05:47:40] <umccullough_aa1> uh, like what?
[05:47:48] <umccullough_aa1> i'm using a gma950 currently with haiku
[05:47:52] <umccullough_aa1> it's i945g
[05:48:10] <umccullough_aa1> (acer aspire one)
[05:48:30] <jmayfield__> thowe, yeah.. it seems nice.. i do like the way it works
[05:48:31] <kwag> I have an Intel ATOM dual core CPU, and I always have to boot with safe mode. If not, all I get is a black screen.
[05:48:40] <thowe> man, I want instant gratification for my million documentation questions.  We need a documentation hackathon!
[05:48:45] <umccullough_aa1> kwag yeah, that's a problem some people have
[05:48:55] <umccullough_aa1> kwag it's the driver, not the processor
[05:49:11] <kwag> ok
[05:49:12] <thowe> jmayfield__: BSD style license too
[05:49:12] <umccullough_aa1> kwag best to just enable safe mode video and then remove the intel driver after boot
[05:49:20] <umccullough_aa1> vesa should work fine
[05:49:41] <kwag> You mean delete the driver directory for Intel?
[05:49:51] <umccullough_aa1> no
[05:49:56] <umccullough_aa1> rename the driver
[05:50:05] <Aratsu> Yeah, I'm having the same problem with i855 and 910
[05:50:17] <kwag> Ok. Will do! Thanks!
[05:50:19] <umccullough_aa1> i855 is a whole different beast
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[05:50:29] <umccullough_aa1> 910/915 also seem to exhibit the issue
[05:50:40] <umccullough_aa1> but fwiw, the i845 and i865 work fine for me
[05:50:48] <umccullough_aa1> kwag the exact driver to rename is...
[05:51:07] <Aratsu> 855 is due to it not grabbing enough memory, if I have been reading my syslog correct
[05:51:09] <kwag> I get tired of having to boot clicking the space bar to get into safe video :)
[05:51:19] <umccullough_aa1> mv /boot/system/add-ons/kernel/drivers/bin/intel_extreme /boot/system/add-ons/kernel/drivers/bin/intel_extreme.disabled
[05:51:21] <Aratsu> but then VESA even only allows me 1024x768x8
[05:51:35] <Aratsu> which is weird.
[05:51:37] <umccullough_aa1> vesa should allow deeper depth
[05:51:41] <Aratsu> Nope.
[05:51:44] <Aratsu> Not on my system.
[05:51:47] <umccullough_aa1> but it's limited by what the video bios supports
[05:51:56] <umccullough_aa1> the early intel chips were quite shitty
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[05:53:19] <Aratsu> Need. Hax.
[05:53:36] <Aratsu> I've got a supported Atheros card and everything.
[05:54:10] <Aratsu> My 910 will display using the driver, but won't go to the res of my screen (1600x1450) or something.
[05:54:44] <Aratsu> It will display a 1280x1024x32 max window, but with the rest of the screen artifacting, and the entire screen flickering as if the refresh rate is off
[05:54:58] <umccullough_aa1> yay!
[05:55:18] <umccullough_aa1> rebooting
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[06:36:32] <CIA-46> bonefish * r33389 /haiku/trunk/src/system/kernel/debug/tracing.cpp:
[06:36:32] <CIA-46> Don't destroy tracing entries. This is not necessary and even harmful, if the
[06:36:32] <CIA-46> code is no longer loaded, e.g. when the module has been unloaded or the tracing
[06:36:32] <CIA-46> buffer was reattached from a previous session.
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[06:56:24] <saivert> FTP Positive doesn't work
[06:56:26] <saivert> on Haiku
[06:57:04] <saivert> quote: 'Could not open "FtpPositive" (Missing symbol: Alignment_5BView).'
[06:58:02] <mmadia> is there a bug report for that?
[06:58:04] <umccullough_aa1> sounds like it was compiled for an older gcc4 version
[06:58:22] <saivert> I used the one up on Haikuware
[06:58:29] <saivert> so they have gcc4 stuff there? bad bad
[06:58:31] <umccullough_aa1> there was an ABI change before alpha1 was finished for gcc4
[06:59:01] <mmadia> and this is why gcc4 is discouraged :)
[06:59:04] <umccullough_aa1> heh
[06:59:13] <umccullough_aa1> or at least, why everything had to be rebuilt after alpha1
[06:59:47] <saivert> actually it's encouraged to use gcc4 for more optimized code. older apps should be ported
[07:00:06] <umccullough_aa1> eh
[07:00:29] <saivert> if people still need to use some real old BeOS binary only apps they can still run gcc2 Haiku.
[07:00:29] <umccullough_aa1> believe it or not...there are some things that gcc2 compiles better
[07:00:47] <saivert> Wasn't the idea to have both?
[07:00:52] <umccullough_aa1> it does have both
[07:01:19] <umccullough_aa1> haiku is compiled with gcc2, but additional gcc4 libs are provided for running newer stuff that requires gcc4
[07:01:21] <saivert> yes but it sounded like you didn't want any gcc4
[07:01:31] <umccullough_aa1> well, the default compiler is gcc2 still
[07:01:32] <Al2O3> Latest video for Haiku Automation testing demo, now with nice entertaining music and comments.
[07:01:33] <Al2O3> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EulxUTJUG2M
[07:01:41] <umccullough_aa1> saivert the gcc4 API may change
[07:01:47] <saivert> umccullough: except if you run gcc4 Haiku that is
[07:02:08] <umccullough_aa1> saivert that's fine, but the gcc4-based Haiku API may still change whereas the gcc2 version will remain binary compatible
[07:02:14] <mmadia> well, gcc4 should be on a needed-for-compiling basis and not because it's better/newer than gcc2.
[07:02:46] <umccullough_aa1> mmadia i'm not sure that's entirely true, it's just that there's no guarantee that the API won't change
[07:02:59] <saivert> wish me good luck in installing Mac OS X on VMWare
[07:03:09] <umccullough_aa1> hackintosh vmware...fun
[07:03:17] <Al2O3> I have heard it can be done.
[07:03:30] <umccullough_aa1> i've seen it
[07:03:32] <Al2O3> Have you a youtube video showing it?
[07:03:35] <Al2O3> In real, or YT?
[07:03:38] <umccullough_aa1> i've seen it live :)
[07:03:43] <mmadia> aren't we guaranteeing the gcc4 ABI to change in the future  -- like post R1?
[07:03:44] <Al2O3> nice
[07:03:58] <umccullough_aa1> mmadia yeah, but certainly doesn't mean everyone should avoid it
[07:04:10] <Al2O3> Too bad VMWare emulates only 4x systems.
[07:04:12] <umccullough_aa1> just means nobody should expect it to remain consistent
[07:04:16] <saivert> http://www.insanelymac.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=172474
[07:04:23] <mmadia> ah. gotya.
[07:04:24] <umccullough_aa1> thus, don't compile a commercial gcc4 app and start shipping CDs
[07:04:30] <saivert> it exploits VMWare's native OS X support
[07:04:31] <umccullough_aa1> cuz, they will break :)
[07:04:32] <Al2O3> would be sweet to have a 8x intel box, with VMware on it, doing 8x emulation.
[07:04:52] <saivert> because VMWare officially can run OS X server on top of OSX (Apple allows it)
[07:05:04] <saivert> but they keep the code in the windows version of the software as well
[07:05:05] <saivert> :)
[07:05:13] <Al2O3> actually, I'm not sure apple allows it at all, at least the #mac folks claim it isn't.
[07:05:22] <saivert> yes. but only for OS X server
[07:05:28] <umccullough_aa1> screw apple ;)
[07:05:31] <saivert> so vmware added checks
[07:05:35] <Al2O3> well, that is what I thought too, and got 'punted' by the #mac folks.
[07:05:36] <saivert> but that can be circumvented
[07:05:51] <saivert> if apple didn't allow it they would have sued VMWare already
[07:06:04] <umccullough_aa1> they probably will
[07:06:08] <umccullough_aa1> they seem pretty sue-happy
[07:06:11] <saivert> Apple is not against virtualization of their server os
[07:06:16] <Al2O3> apple is in the process of suing my grandparents.
[07:06:16] <saivert> on mac hardware of course
[07:06:22] <Al2O3> they are dead, about 10 years ago.
[07:06:36] <saivert> apple doesn't provide any virtualization hardware of their own
[07:06:41] <saivert> or software. :)
[07:07:10] <umccullough_aa1> anyhow, i always get flamed when i start spewing anti-apple shit, so i'll shut up now ;)
[07:07:25] <saivert> anyways I don't want to discuss legalities
[07:07:31] <umccullough_aa1> good plan
[07:07:32] <saivert> don't know why you brought it up.
[07:07:37] <saivert> do you think I care?
[07:07:39] <umccullough_aa1> especially in a public logged channel eh?
[07:07:43] <Al2O3> No, keep going.  I have been a apple fan-boy for 25+ years now.
[07:07:56] <Al2O3> I now refer to Apple Inc, as Crapplink
[07:08:09] <saivert> I've been into Hackintosh scene for a bit now
[07:08:11] <umccullough_aa1> i have a couple old Mac's still
[07:08:13] <saivert> since 2007
[07:08:17] <Al2O3> The guy at the top worth 5.3 billion USD is just out of control, and so is the company.
[07:08:31] <Al2O3> saivert: I would like to stay in touch with you.
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[07:08:53] <Al2O3> Is there hardware that is 'ideal' at this point for hackintosh?  And is there a 10.6.x hacintosh distro now out there?
[07:08:57] <saivert> well.. I don't know anything special. not more than what you can read on insanelymac
[07:09:05] <Al2O3> ok, thanks.
[07:09:14] <Al2O3> well, sometimes talking to someone that has read it all is good, filters a bit.
[07:09:24] <saivert> several motherboards are ideal. gigabyte has some
[07:09:24] <Al2O3> there is a lot of noise and uncertainty out there, dumb ass questions.
[07:09:33] <saivert> there are even guides targetting special motherboards
[07:09:36] <Al2O3> great, do you mind mentioning the models?
[07:09:47] <Al2O3> I'd like to toss together a 4x or 8x hackintosh for yucks.
[07:10:07] <saivert> ga_ep45_UD3R
[07:10:22] <saivert> GA_EX58_UD5
[07:10:33] <saivert> lots of stuff here: http://www.insanelymac.com/forum/index.php?showforum=178
[07:11:20] <saivert> they even have bootloaders that let you boot unmodified DVDs
[07:11:54] <Al2O3> nice, cause I own the OS/distro from apple.
[07:12:00] <Al2O3> I have their hardware all over my desktop.
[07:12:20] <umccullough_aa1> what's the resale market for OS X?
[07:12:25] <umccullough_aa1> Can I get a copy for $1?
[07:12:30] <Al2O3> likely
[07:12:34] <Al2O3> from some china shop
[07:12:40] <Al2O3> if you live in chinatown.
[07:12:45] <umccullough_aa1> not exactly what i meant ;)
[07:13:23] <umccullough_aa1> funny, i almost forgot there for a bit that I was actually using Haiku
[07:13:28] <umccullough_aa1> that's pretty sweet
[07:13:38] <umccullough_aa1> until i hit a webpage with flash on it
[07:14:20] <mmadia> some might call that a feature.... automatic flash block :]
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[07:14:35] <umccullough_aa1> ;)
[07:14:52] <Al2O3> so basically it comes down to this slogan... "Why buy Crapple for 1000s when you can do Hackintosh for 100s"
[07:15:04] <mmadia> OmniMancer : congrats on llvm.  did you ship your patches to Haiku-Ports at all?
[07:15:22] <saivert> well.. I'm going through the initial setup guide on OS X now.
[07:15:43] <saivert> entering username, address, etc. what type of computer user I am, my @mac ID
[07:16:06] <Al2O3> make one up.
[07:16:08] <saivert> NO I don't want to try MobileMe for free
[07:16:09] <Al2O3> or just don't do it.
[07:16:18] <Al2O3> Good, neither did I, and I'm a legit user.
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[07:16:28] <Al2O3> I don't do MobileMe, or anything Apple except the OS.
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[07:16:58] <Al2O3> You got some suggestion on quad (2 CPU x duo core) or 8x system boards?
[07:17:04] <Al2O3> and will they work with crackintosh?
[07:17:14] <saivert> can't afford a Mac Pro?
[07:17:21] <Al2O3> I have one.
[07:17:27] <Al2O3> Mac Book Pro, 2.8 that I'm using now.
[07:17:29] <Al2O3> to test Haiku.
[07:17:31] <OmniMancer> mmadia: the patch I made is for official llvm source tree
[07:17:36] <saivert> I hate that spinning ball
[07:17:39] <untwelve> Is there a guide on how to compile haiku from source?
[07:17:44] <saivert> lame excuse for "hourglass" cursor
[07:17:46] <Al2O3> yes, we all hate the bitch ball from hell.
[07:17:51] <jmayfield__> Al2O3, haiku works fine on my macbook pro 3.1
[07:18:04] <Al2O3> jmayfield__: you have it installed native, no VMWare?
[07:18:09] <jmayfield__> yes
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[07:18:30] <Al2O3> do you have a solid VNC server for haiku so I can do the testing I do?
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[07:18:58] <Al2O3> jmayfield__: is it a trick to install?  Do you have a write up on it.  I could install on a external drive that I have around.
[07:19:15] <Al2O3> I h  Boot ROM Version:	MBP52.008E.B05
[07:19:16] <Al2O3> I have   Boot ROM Version:	MBP52.008E.B05
[07:19:18] <saivert> it's easy with those iatkos or kalyway distros of OS X
[07:19:28] <saivert> they come with most drivers and stuff preloaded
[07:19:30] <Al2O3> or   Model Identifier:	MacBookPro5,2
[07:19:39] <saivert> photobucket is so slow
[07:19:44] <saivert> http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c276/saivert/vmware-osx-thankyou.png
[07:19:48] <saivert> http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c276/saivert/osx-installed-vmware.png
[07:19:55] <OmniMancer> mmadia: there is one patch that must go into haiku ports though
[07:19:55] <jmayfield__> Al2O3, I just free'd up some space on the hd, and used the installer to create a bfs partition.. installed just fine.  i use grub to boot
[07:19:59] <saivert> note the yellow harddisk icon
[07:20:19] <Al2O3> EFI is out on your system?
[07:20:22] <Al2O3> Grub is used instead?
[07:20:39] <Al2O3> Oh, that is sick to see VMWare running OS X :)
[07:20:40] <mmadia> the one with a makefile hack. OmniMancer?
[07:20:46] <jmayfield__> i dont have an apple os on this machine
[07:20:48] <saivert> this is all vmware's doing. no hacks. I used retail apple dvd
[07:20:57] <Al2O3> jmayfield__: now that is nice.
[07:21:02] <Al2O3> I wouldn't mind that, at all.
[07:21:06] <OmniMancer> yea you just have to remove the LIBS = -lpthread $(LIBS)
[07:21:06] <jmayfield__> ubuntu and haiku
[07:21:09] <Al2O3> Kinda expensive hardware to not have OS X on it, no?
[07:21:15] <Al2O3> that is impressive!
[07:21:29] <jmayfield__> Al2O3, my macbook was never as useful as it became when i ditched osx for ubuntu
[07:21:32] <jmayfield__> hehe
[07:21:33] <Al2O3> I think I would tri install, os x (10.5 and .6) and ubuntu, and haiku.
[07:21:39] <jmayfield__> i really dont like osx
[07:21:43] <Al2O3> that is a solid selling point.
[07:21:50] <Al2O3> I do like OS X, but not the company behind it.
[07:21:59] <jmayfield__> i dont care about the company
[07:22:01] <Al2O3> however, the megalithic OS is getting me a little down.
[07:22:04] <mmadia> OmniMancer : you should send an email to the haiku-ports-dev list, someone may have a suggestion
[07:22:07] <OmniMancer> because that complains about missing pthread lib
[07:22:40] <Al2O3> jmayfield__: thanks for the heads up, I may do a bit of research on grub, and the leverage your knowledge to have ubuntu and haiku on it as well.
[07:22:50] <OmniMancer> I want to ask on llvm if they can fix it, if I can get llvm to build with cmake it might solve the problem though
[07:23:02] <mmadia> that should be easy enough to fix.
[07:23:28] <jmayfield__> Al2O3, i never had to do anything special.. i just assumed the macbook was hw like any other computer.. ubuntu and haiku installed in the normal fashion
[07:25:15] <jmayfield__> wait.. one thing i did have to do i make sure the partition with ubuntu on it is marked as bootable
[07:25:26] <saivert> photobucket gets on my nerves sometimes
[07:25:29] <saivert> really slow
[07:25:45] <saivert> http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c276/saivert/vmware-osx-about_this_mac.png
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[07:26:19] <OmniMancer> perhaps
[07:30:07] <saivert> now I'm going to shut down the virtual machine and then clone it. I don't want to mess up my only cleanly installed version
[07:30:48] <saivert> the installation takes approx 1 hour.
[07:33:34] <MrSunshine_> OmniMancer, as soon as i get a working computer i could look at it, haiku doesnt run on this laptop anymore :/
[07:35:35] <MrSunshine_> what has Niels Reedjik done ?
[07:35:37] <MrSunshine_> who is he? :)
[07:38:59] <OmniMancer> :(
[07:39:27] <OmniMancer> MrSunshine_: not enough ram to run a virtual machine?
[07:39:30] <umccullough_aa1> niels is just this guy, you know?
[07:39:30] <saivert> is there a way to make the deskbare open an applications primary window (or first) when you click it's deskbar button?
[07:39:37] <saivert> I don't want the stupid app window list everytime
[07:39:41] <saivert> I could right click for that
[07:39:56] <umccullough_aa1> dunno
[07:40:05] <umccullough_aa1> i usually switch apps with ctrl-alt
[07:40:15] <umccullough_aa1> er
[07:40:17] <umccullough_aa1> ctrl-tab
[07:40:22] * umccullough_aa1 is getting sleepy
[07:40:30] <saivert> you need to press and hold ctrl-tab actually
[07:40:33] <saivert> you can't just tap it
[07:40:37] <umccullough_aa1> no, just ctrl-tab
[07:40:47] <umccullough_aa1> if you want to switch windows, you use ctrl-~
[07:43:25] <umccullough_aa1> get it? :)
[07:43:33] <umccullough_aa1> alt-~ to switch between the last two workspaces
[07:43:42] <umccullough_aa1> i just learned some of these myself
[07:44:01] <StephaneCharette> ~ is a combination of 2 keys on my keyboard  :(
[07:44:02] <saivert> netpenguin is working pretty good
[07:44:23] <umccullough_aa1> StephaneCharette that sucks
[07:44:32] <umccullough_aa1> StephaneCharette do you have a key above your tab?
[07:44:46] <StephaneCharette> yes, #
[07:44:52] <umccullough_aa1> maybe remap
[07:45:11] <umccullough_aa1> supposedly, it's the key above tab that does what i describe, not sure if it's always ~
[07:45:44] <umccullough_aa1> ok, going to sleep now
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[07:46:07] <StephaneCharette> I was trying to figure out the switching hotkeys the other night
[07:46:23] <StephaneCharette> trying to figure out how ALT+TAB worked (since most OS use ALT+TAB)
[07:46:40] <umccullough> on haiku it's ctrl-tab
[07:46:40] <StephaneCharette> but it would only cycle through some windows, ignoring others
[07:46:49] <umccullough> alt-tab only works on terminal windows
[07:46:50] <StephaneCharette> then found CTRL+TAB by accident
[07:47:09] <umccullough> ctrl-~ does the same behavior as alt-tab does for terminal windows, but works for everything
[07:47:09] <StephaneCharette> yeah, I had a bunch of terminal windows up at the time
[07:47:31] <umccullough> ctrl-~ switches between different windows of the same team
[07:47:38] <umccullough> ctrl-tab switches between teams
[07:47:42] <MrSunshine_> OmniMancer, i will not be compiling on a virtual machine :P
[07:47:44] <umccullough> pretty funky, i know :)
[07:47:51] <StephaneCharette> why re-invent the wheel?  I'm new to haiku, but I cannot help but think:  ooooh, some else for newbies to have to re-learn
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[07:48:05] <umccullough> StephaneCharette, you can of course switch ctrl/alt
[07:48:15] <StephaneCharette> save with the standard keys -- seems that Haiku prefers ALT over CTRL
[07:48:20] <umccullough> that's a built-in feature for people coming from windows/linux
[07:48:33] <StephaneCharette> I kept hitting CTRL+S in the text editor thinking I'd be saving, but save is ALt+S  :)
[07:48:35] <umccullough> well, if you use a lot of shortcuts, you find alt makes a hell of a lot more sense
[07:48:38] <OmniMancer> MrSunshine_: why not?
[07:48:48] <MrSunshine_> OmniMancer, cause its like 200x slower then on a real machine? :P
[07:48:59] <umccullough> StephaneCharette, as it turns out, ctrl-c for example in a terminal kills a process
[07:49:06] <umccullough> so, alt-c in terminal is used on linux
[07:49:07] <StephaneCharette> my keyboard has ALTGR, not ALT
[07:49:15] <umccullough> same thing
[07:49:16] <StephaneCharette> non-US keyboard layout
[07:49:25] <StephaneCharette> not, not the same
[07:49:26] <OmniMancer> I compiled llvm on a VM one
[07:49:32] <StephaneCharette> ALTGR is ALT+SHIFT
[07:49:41] <umccullough> StephaneCharette, oh, you don't have a key on the left side of spacebar?
[07:49:44] <MrSunshine_> OmniMancer, and it took like 3 days? :P
[07:50:01] <OmniMancer> nope
[07:50:09] <StephaneCharette> yes, that one is ALT
[07:50:12] <OmniMancer> does it in a few hours :P
[07:50:13] <saivert> I run a 64 bit system. now you know
[07:50:16] <umccullough> lol, right
[07:50:25] <StephaneCharette> but when using the left keys, you press ALT with the right hand
[07:50:36] <umccullough> i certainly don't
[07:50:41] <StephaneCharette> ...which for me is ALTGR  :)
[07:51:00] <saivert> I grew up in 2005. that's when I installed Windows XP x64 Edition for the first time
[07:51:02] <umccullough> perhaps it's because i've learned to always use the ctrl and alt keys on the left side even if i'm using a shortcut on the left side
[07:51:30] <umccullough> StephaneCharette, so for me, using my thumb on the alt + whatever key i need makes absolute sense
[07:51:34] <MrSunshine_> OmniMancer, compared to doing it in like 10mins
[07:51:45] <StephaneCharette> k
[07:51:46] <OmniMancer> no
[07:51:49] <MrSunshine_> now thats time well spent when you have to recompile everything :P
[07:51:55] <OmniMancer> takes a while for me all the time
[07:51:58] <umccullough> StephaneCharette, also keep in mind, this is based on how the macintosh keyboard was setup
[07:51:59] <jmayfield__> i dont think i ever use right shift/ctrl/alt
[07:52:14] <umccullough> which is where beos sort of originated ;)
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[07:52:38] <StephaneCharette> ah, right -- see I was never a mac guy, so this is all new to me
[07:52:38] <saivert> Right ctrl could be bound to something else
[07:52:51] <umccullough> on a mac, you had option and command
[07:53:33] <umccullough> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Apple_Modifier_Keys.jpg
[07:53:50] <umccullough> note, that's a macbook so it has the Fn key
[07:54:53] <umccullough> this gives a better idea: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/37/Apple_Keyboard_II.jpg
[07:55:12] <umccullough> thus, the command == alt for physical purposes
[07:55:32] <umccullough> on mac, you used command-c/command-v for copy/paste, on haiku it's alt-c/alt-v
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[07:55:55] <umccullough> the whole ctrl-c/ctrl-v thing comes from ... well, windows and whatever predates it
[07:57:00] <StephaneCharette> yeah, I was still used to the old CUA standards of CTRL+INS, SHIFT+INS, SHIFT+DEL for copy, paste, cut, but quickly found that wasn't supported when I was writing my first app the other night
[07:57:18] <umccullough> fun :D
[07:57:35] <StephaneCharette> the CUA standard is still supported in Ubuntu, Windows, and various other operating systems even if the shortcuts are not normally displayed
[07:57:45] <StephaneCharette> Haiku is the first OS I've used that doesn't support them
[07:57:56] <umccullough> being almost exclusively a windows user for the last decade, but a mac user for some years before that, getting used to beos/haiku thing was a bit challenging again, but i really like
[07:57:57] <umccullough> it
[07:58:00] <StephaneCharette> a lifetime of (bad?) habits to try and fix  :)
[07:58:14] <umccullough> you can of course create an input filter to do whatever you want
[07:58:25] <umccullough> and there was even a program for beos called SpicyKeys
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[07:58:50] <untwelve> The build tools are taking forever to checkout.
[07:59:04] <OmniMancer> alt is a bit interesting to use for copy/paste
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[07:59:42] <umccullough> OmniMancer, i really like it because folding my thumb under feels much better than stretching my pinky :)
[07:59:59] <umccullough> or even moving my hand down and using my pinky or ring finger to hit it is easy as well
[08:00:31] <OmniMancer> indeed
[08:00:44] <OmniMancer> just different
[08:00:46] <saivert> BeZillabrowser still wont quit when you choose Shutdown or reboot
[08:00:49] <umccullough> i type the spacebar with my right hand, so my left thumb just does nothing most of the time anyway
[08:01:29] <ari-free> it's because of terminal...control c is abort
[08:01:59] <umccullough> yeah, people who are used to ctrl-c and move to linux find it hard to adjust when copy/pasting in terminal :P
[08:02:03] <umccullough> (i know i did)
[08:02:26] <OmniMancer> yea it is awesome to use shortcuts to copy/paste in terminal
[08:02:52] <ari-free> how do you copy in linux terminal?
[08:02:53] <umccullough> well, on most linux, you can ust alt-c/alt-v in terminal to copy/paste anyway
[08:02:56] <umccullough> just inconsistent
[08:02:56] <MrSunshine_> shit+ctrl is what they usaly use in terminal that ive seen
[08:03:01] <MrSunshine_> atleast in my terminal :)
[08:03:06] <ari-free> oh so it is inconsistent
[08:03:07] <umccullough> on my debian it's alt :)
[08:03:08] <MrSunshine_> shift+ctrl+c
[08:03:43] <ari-free> adding a shift makes it worse!
[08:04:03] <ari-free> i hate shortcuts that require me to hold 3 keys at once
[08:04:20] <MrSunshine_> pinky ring finger then the "pokefinger" ? :P
[08:04:23] <MrSunshine_> for the c x z
[08:04:59] <umccullough> too much movement
[08:05:03] <MrSunshine_> nah
[08:05:09] <ari-free> ergonomically it is also easier to hit alt than control
[08:05:10] <MrSunshine_> not so often you copy paste imo )
[08:05:10] <MrSunshine_> :)
[08:05:16] <MrSunshine_> if you are a copy paste coder then ... humm :P
[08:05:20] <umccullough> for me, copy/paste is an all day thing :P
[08:05:38] <StephaneCharette> as a developer, I find I very often cut-and-paste
[08:05:40] <umccullough> lots of SQL
[08:05:56] <StephaneCharette> nothing better to do than move code around in source files I guess :)
[08:05:57] <ari-free> we have to assume you like to copy paste a lot from terminal to gui and vice versa
[08:05:58] <umccullough> always copy/pasting column names, etc.
[08:06:21] <ari-free> then you realize wow haiku rules :)
[08:06:48] <MrSunshine_> lets make ctrl+c a way to terminate the OS also
[08:07:07] <MrSunshine_> so if you are on the wrong focus, press ctrl + c it shuts down the app without asking for save, and if you do it on the desktop it shuts down the OS :P
[08:07:22] <MrSunshine_> just to annoy people :P
[08:08:08] <OmniMancer> ouch
[08:08:22] <ari-free> well the fundamental difference between gui and terminal is gui is parallel and terminal is linear.
[08:08:53] <umccullough> CLI doesn't have to be lineear
[08:08:55] <umccullough> linear
[08:09:09] <OmniMancer> yay parallel console :P
[08:09:11] <umccullough> but once you start running a lot of async processes, it's pretty damn hard to type ;)
[08:09:40] <ari-free> exactly
[08:10:12] <ari-free> might as well use a gui. Some people though gui is just about the dumbed down graphics
[08:10:29] <ari-free> it was really about doing thing out of order
[08:10:54] <umccullough> well, on linux, without a GUI, you can switch to other terminals to get more work done at least
[08:11:07] <umccullough> i'll often utilize 3 or so
[08:11:51] <jmayfield__> screen
[08:12:03] <ari-free> but the tasks in each order have to be performed in order
[08:12:11] <ari-free> tasks in each terminal
[08:13:46] <HeTo> you can background tasks with ^Z or  starting with &
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[08:38:30] <OmniMancer> sent patch in
[08:39:23] * JonathanThompson sends OmniMancer in
[08:39:45] <JonathanThompson> Have you been able to get things brought over to Haiku to run the proper tests somehow, OmniMancer ?
[08:40:00] <OmniMancer> no
[08:40:13] <OmniMancer> but these changes do not break anything except on haiku :P
[08:40:31] <JonathanThompson> Famous last words pattern, yup :P
[08:40:43] <OmniMancer> well the thing is
[08:40:46] <OmniMancer> that they ARE
[08:40:47] <JonathanThompson> "What could go wrong?  It was a simple change!" :D
[08:41:01] <OmniMancer> the two source changes were preprocessor changes :P
[08:41:17] <JonathanThompson> Some of the most dangerous types in practice :P
[08:41:29] * JonathanThompson is the skeptic for practical reasons
[08:41:44] <OmniMancer> yes
[08:42:11] <OmniMancer> but its adding a check to gtest to make it compile on haiku
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[08:45:20] * JonathanThompson notes weird Opera behavior
[08:45:50] <OmniMancer> and a change to one System file to make it compile on haiku (its Unix/Process.inc) it needed a certain function not work
[08:46:30] <OmniMancer> I will add an implementation eventually
[08:47:50] <OmniMancer> its the get total memory used function :(
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[08:48:03] <OmniMancer> oh and a pthread seaqrch change in configure
[08:49:15] <jmayfield__> opera never really gets beyond feeling weird to me
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[08:52:02] <JonathanThompson> Right now it's using about 95% of a CPU for some unknown reason.
[08:52:19] <JonathanThompson> I was seeing something similar with Colloquy earlier tonight, and restarted after a bit.
[08:52:24] <JonathanThompson> Makes me wonder.
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[08:52:33] <JonathanThompson> (Running Snow Leopard)
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[08:59:39] <scottmc> http://mhash.sourceforge.net/ <- can someone post the direct link to download this for me?
[09:01:26] <rogueeve> http://downloads.sourceforge.net/project/mhash/mhash/0.9.9.9/mhash-0.9.9.9.tar.gz?use_mirror=softlayer
[09:02:27] <scottmc> thanks rogueeve
[09:03:59] <OmniMancer> :(
[09:04:08] <rogueeve> ?
[09:04:14] <rogueeve> why sad?
[09:04:45] <OmniMancer> they won't immediately put my patch into llvm trunk :(
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[09:05:30] <rogueeve> oh...
[09:05:42] <GeneralMaximus> hi :)
[09:05:52] <rogueeve> :) hi
[09:05:55] <scottmc> what's the patch do?
[09:06:06] <OmniMancer> makes it configure and compile properly on haiku
[09:06:16] <GeneralMaximus> hiya rogueeve
[09:06:41] <scottmc> you can check it into haiku-ports svn, that's where we keep the python patch, as python won't take it either
[09:06:44] <rogueeve> hiya
[09:06:54] <OmniMancer> they will take it
[09:06:59] <OmniMancer> it might take a while though
[09:07:13] <scottmc> llvm or python?
[09:07:30] <OmniMancer> llvm
[09:07:48] <OmniMancer> ill chuck two on haiku ports thoiugh
[09:08:00] <OmniMancer> there is a makefile change needed on haiku to make it complete the build
[09:08:02] <mmadia> scottmc : it's for adding pthreads to LIBS..
[09:08:09] <GeneralMaximus> getting online after a week sure feels nice ...
[09:08:22] <OmniMancer> or more removing it
[09:08:35] * GeneralMaximus goes to check whether the Intertubes have blown up yet
[09:08:47] <scottmc> yeah that's the type of patches we seem to run into most often, just fixing configure type things
[09:08:50] * rogueeve wonders what Intertubes are
[09:08:57] <OmniMancer> oh no its not that
[09:09:02] <OmniMancer> I FIXED configure
[09:09:09] <OmniMancer> but the makefile is idiotic
[09:09:12] <OmniMancer> its one example
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[09:10:38] <mmadia> you might be able to put a check/seach lib in configure and conditionally add LIBS += -lpthread
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[09:11:37] <OmniMancer> mmadia: I FIXED CONFIGUREEEEEEEEEE
[09:11:40] * OmniMancer CIRES
[09:11:46] * OmniMancer CRIES EVEN
[09:11:52] <scottmc> yeah, check the patch in and it'll get more eyes on it and maybe we can optimize it more
[09:12:10] <OmniMancer> I fixed it
[09:12:20] <scottmc> in configure or configure.ac?
[09:12:24] <OmniMancer> the make file actually has the line exactly as I type:
[09:12:37] <OmniMancer> LIBS = -lpthread $(LIBS)
[09:12:45] <scottmc> do they use the autotools?
[09:12:52] <OmniMancer> YESSSSSS
[09:13:00] <OmniMancer> but the makefile is idiotic
[09:13:03] <rogueeve> i'm sure that some sort of fancy recursive algorithm
[09:13:13] <rogueeve> not dumb at all :)
[09:13:15] <OmniMancer> its the ParallelJIT makefile
[09:13:17] <scottmc> is the -lpthread line also in a Makefile.in or MAkefile.ac file?
[09:13:26] <OmniMancer> sigh
[09:13:31] <OmniMancer> the makefiles are static
[09:13:35] <scottmc> oh ok
[09:13:59] <mmadia> is there a configure.in?
[09:14:09] <OmniMancer> don't know
[09:14:16] <scottmc> so your fix was to put a case if for haiku?
[09:14:21] <OmniMancer> I fixed configure.ac to do the pthread thing right
[09:14:44] <OmniMancer> yes and to change the pthread search to use AC_SEARCH_LIBS instead of AC_CHECK_LIB
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[09:16:01] <mmadia> configure.in,  configure,ac.... almost the same :)
[09:16:30] <OmniMancer> it uses autoconf
[09:16:31] <OmniMancer> um
[09:16:46] <OmniMancer> is getrusage ever going to give total memory useage?
[09:17:26] <brobostigon> which are the files and folder again, that i have keep intact, i need to do a clean build, getting some weird errors.?
[09:18:53] <mmadia> brobostigon : building Haiku on a filesystem w/o xattr?
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[09:19:31] <brobostigon> mmadia: xattr?
[09:20:07] <mmadia> eg  UFS2, ReiserFS  and configure --use-xattr
[09:20:44] <brobostigon> i am building under linux, ext3
[09:20:56] <mmadia> rm  generated/attributes generated/objects
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[09:21:22] <brobostigon> mmadia: ok.
[09:22:05] <scottmc> OmniMancer can you post your patch on pastebin so we can see it, just curious what it looks like
[09:22:24] <OmniMancer> sure
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[09:26:48] <brobostigon> mmadia: ok, so rm those two folders, and it will build from scratch?
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[09:28:03] <mmadia> you won't need to run configure.   but from a jamming point of view, yes.
[09:28:21] <mmadia> *, yes it'll build from scratch
[09:30:09] <brobostigon> thanks very much mmadia, i have made notes in my book, for this kind of thing.
[09:30:41] <OmniMancer> www.pastie.org/637738
[09:32:49] <OmniMancer> http://www.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/009695399/basedefs/sys/resource.h.html
[09:34:30] <OmniMancer> this suggests that their use of getrusage to get memory usage is invalid on posix
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[09:37:31] <OmniMancer> :(
[09:39:09] <OmniMancer> scottmc: you looked?
[09:43:11] <CIA-46> phoudoin * r33390 /haiku/trunk/src/preferences/opengl/ (LogoView.cpp OpenGL.rdef OpenGL_logo.png logo.png):
[09:43:11] <CIA-46> We can't use OpenGL logo before we obtains a license from SGI.
[09:43:11] <CIA-46> Meanwhile, let's replace it with a classical glgears one.
[09:43:11] <CIA-46> BTW, we need an icon for this preflet, currently it's the Network preflet one!
[09:43:11] <CIA-46> People more fluent with Icon-O-Matic than me (aka everybody) are welcome.
[09:44:03] <scottmc> patch looked clean, i don't know details on the posix stuff though, that's still a bit over my head.
[09:45:33] <scottmc> rogueeve, in your SDL patch did you modify any files outside of BWindow?
[09:46:10] <rogueeve> um...
[09:46:23] <OmniMancer> it is clean but they say that skipping that on haiku there is not as clean as turning off rusage on haiku
[09:46:29] <rogueeve> it was a patch to the function that handles SDL_SetVideoMode()
[09:46:37] <rogueeve> having to do with finding the best-fit resolution
[09:48:04] <rogueeve> BE_FindClosestFSMode() in /SDL-1.2.13/src/video/bwindow
[09:48:06] <rogueeve> that was all
[09:48:12] <scottmc> ok, if it's just that, then i think i've extracted it.
[09:48:29] <scottmc> did you build 1.2.13 or 1.2.13svn?
[09:48:38] <rogueeve> the only diff is that I changed the way it iterates over the modes at the top
[09:49:09] <scottmc> bruno tried to do a similar fix, but i guess it only worked on vesa modes.
[09:49:14] <rogueeve> not certain, but I don't have any ".svn" directories in there, so it is probably 1.2.13
[09:49:28] <rogueeve> i'm pretty sure i got it from a zip file and unzipped it
[09:49:35] <scottmc> ok, i'm going to build it vs. svn tomorrow and see how it goes
[09:50:01] <scottmc> and check in the resulting patch to haiku-ports svn
[09:50:12] <rogueeve> ok cool
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[10:01:03] <scottmc> night all, past my bed time in CA.
[10:01:08] <OmniMancer> night
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[10:09:27] <MrSunshine_> anyone know a way to get around the "can not be watched in your region" restriction stuffs ?
[10:09:32] <CIA-46> scottmc * r374 /haikuports/trunk/media-libs/libsdl/sdl-1.2.13-haiku-bwindow-sysvideo.diff: New fullscreen patch to SDL to fix fullscreen issue in BWindow by rogueeve. Needs further testing and perhaps merged with other recent SDL BWindow patches.
[10:15:58] <OmniMancer> no sorry :(
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[10:36:52] <OmniMancer> aljen: I submitted a patch but I might need to sort it out a little
[10:39:56] <OmniMancer> I will put a patch with the makefile change on haiku ports for people who want to build it before llvm accepts it
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[10:44:48] <GeneralMaximus> sorry for that :/
[10:46:40] <OmniMancer> however googletest might like the patch for them to compile on haiku
[10:48:23] <Igneous> man.. I must have uncovered 5+ bugs playing with fonts
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[10:49:24] <OmniMancer> :D
[10:49:45] <Igneous> there's a really cute one, where if you remove a font that's currently selected in the font preferences, when you re-open that window to change the font, it's like 9000px wide
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[10:53:17] <Igneous> really got haiku looking excellent, though
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[11:12:43] <StreaK|ON> hi all
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[11:28:50] <CIA-46> bonefish * r33391 /haiku/trunk/src/system/kernel/debug/BreakpointManager.cpp: Fixed build with tracing enabled.
[11:29:24] <CIA-46> bonefish * r33392 /haiku/trunk/src/system/kernel/arch/x86/arch_user_debugger.cpp: Improved comment.
[11:35:24] <CIA-46> bonefish * r33393 /haiku/trunk/src/apps/debugger/ (Jamfile types/ArrayIndexPath.cpp types/ArrayIndexPath.h):
[11:35:24] <CIA-46> Added ArrayIndexPath, a small class storing a index list for identifying an
[11:35:24] <CIA-46> element in a multi-dimensional array, featuring conversion from and to string.
[11:36:32] <CIA-46> bonefish * r33394 /haiku/trunk/src/apps/debugger/debug_info/DwarfStackFrameDebugInfo.cpp:
[11:36:32] <CIA-46> * Fixed typos in comparisons.
[11:36:32] <CIA-46> * Some more output on error.
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[11:38:42] <CIA-46> bonefish * r33395 /haiku/trunk/src/apps/debugger/model/TypeComponentPath.h:
[11:38:42] <CIA-46> Since arrays can be multi-dimensional, a single index does not suffice to
[11:38:42] <CIA-46> identify an element. We use the name string of the TypeComponent as index path.
[11:39:49] <CIA-46> bonefish * r33396 /haiku/trunk/src/apps/debugger/gui/team_window/VariablesView.cpp:
[11:39:49] <CIA-46> Added support for displaying arrays. Their element's values aren't retrieved
[11:39:49] <CIA-46> yet, though.
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[11:43:19] <phalax_> hi everyone
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[11:45:50] <BeRReGoN> well i'll need to go to sleep before the sun rise up
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[11:55:03] <OmniMancer1> :(
[11:55:19] <Teknomancer> OmniMancer1: ?
[11:56:00] <OmniMancer1> I have a maths assignment due for tomorrow
[11:56:08] <OmniMancer1> but I want to do other things :(
[11:56:33] <Teknomancer> :)
[11:57:19] <BeRReGoN> it strange, since i get a lot of free times, i don't have will to do much :)
[11:58:02] <Teknomancer> what kind of math?
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[12:12:16] <OmniMancer1> annoying maths
[12:13:07] <OmniMancer1> some taylor polynomials
[12:13:09] <OmniMancer1> matrices
[12:13:11] <OmniMancer1> vectors
[12:13:17] <OmniMancer1> proof by induction
[12:13:20] <OmniMancer1> annoying things
[12:14:12] <thebolt> maths is nice :)
[12:14:23] <{V}> *phew* no Jacobian math then? lucky :)
[12:14:47] <OmniMancer1> oh and annoying limits
[12:15:03] <thebolt> limits are terribly useful though
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[12:15:16] <thebolt> so hard to do any real (or complex) analysis without them ;)
[12:15:35] <{V}> good luck OmniMancer1. Hope you can stay away from IRC long enough to finish it
[12:15:35] <leszek> hi
[12:16:02] <{V}> 'lo leszek
[12:16:03] <leszek> I wrote a pkill app for haiku, is there any chance to get it in the offical haiku tree somehow ?
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[12:17:37] <StreaK|ON> Hey, guys .. YAB isn't supporting MP3 playing, right?
[12:18:08] <leszek> StreaK|ON, it supports sound playing, mp3s should work fine as it is using mediakit
[12:18:19] <OmniMancer1> well lim((tan(2*x)^2)/sqrt(x^4-4*x^5)) as x tends to 0 is annoying to do
[12:18:26] <OmniMancer1> atleast I don't have to do it :D
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[12:18:41] <{V}> leszek, I think so. double check there isn't such a command already and either submit it to the (bug)tracker as an enhancement or e-mail it to the haiku-development list as a attachment.
[12:19:44] <StreaK|ON> @leszek, i've tried and it dont play any mp3.. but to make sure i'll double chck
[12:19:46] <StreaK|ON> check
[12:20:48] <leszek> {V}, ok
[12:21:07] <OmniMancer1> well the part I have to do in maple is done
[12:21:34] <StreaK|ON> @leszek, or maybe YAB is handling mp3 properly, bot dont give any sound..i'll check soon
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[12:23:22] <nutela1> OmniMancer1:  that's normal
[12:23:32] <nutela1> easy stuff
[12:23:43] <nutela1> proofing is not easy ok
[12:24:06] <OmniMancer1> mhmm
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[12:34:12] <leszek> ok enhancement is set : http://dev.haiku-os.org/ticket/4687
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[12:35:41] <leszek> would be nice if people with haiku alpha1 could test it ;)
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[12:37:58] <nutela1> leszek is ALM part of aplha?
[12:38:18] <leszek> ALM ? don't know
[12:39:03] <nutela1> auckland layout model, press Windows-key and drag windows-tab together
[12:39:14] <nutela1> youtube auckland haiku
[12:39:24] <nutela1> gtg l8er
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[12:57:52] <StreaK|ON> Hey, guys ip using qemu on Win with these switches: qemu.exe -L . -m 256 -hda haiku.image -soundhw all -localtime -M isapc -no-kqemu
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[12:58:15] <StreaK|ON> and after starting qemu is freezing [ not respondong ]
[12:58:18] <StreaK|ON> any ideas?
[12:58:33] <OmniMancer1> don't know
[12:58:47] <OmniMancer1> tried the usual boot safety things?
[12:59:40] <StreaK|ON> dont even go into haiku.. freezing on "colorpalette" screen
[12:59:57] <StreaK|ON> before starting haiku
[13:00:17] <StreaK|ON> maybe something wrong with switches added to qemu?
[13:00:33] <leszek> seems to be right
[13:00:34] <Teknomancer> StreaK|ON: not sure about qemu but if you want to just run haiku maybe try virtualbox?
[13:00:47] <StreaK|ON> i'll try
[13:00:51] <StreaK|ON> thx
[13:02:02] <OmniMancer1> but push space before it gets to the pallette
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[13:04:12] <BeRReGoN> sisong IDE seems to be really nice
[13:04:43] <StreaK|ON> http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/5830/qemufreeze.jpg
[13:05:22] <StreaK|ON> @OmniMancer, i dont see anything before palette screen.. it goes too quickly
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[13:11:45] <OmniMancer1> keep pushing space as the thing boots
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[13:13:08] <StreaK|ON> re
[13:13:25] <StreaK|ON> virtualbox dont accepting *.image files
[13:14:20] <OmniMancer1> VBoxManage convertfromraw
[13:14:32] <OmniMancer1> with infile and outfile after it
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[13:15:06] <StreaK|ON> @OmniMancer, thx.. checing
[13:16:12] <HeTo> StreaK|ON: -M isapc, why?
[13:17:16] <OmniMancer1> leave out the -m
[13:17:20] <OmniMancer1> M
[13:20:33] <HeTo> the palette is due to having a non-vesa-compatible video card, and if that disables PCI, I wouldn't be surprised Haiku doesn't boot
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[13:33:48] <OmniMancer1> non vesa compatible?
[13:34:52] <OmniMancer1> I have a hardware box that does the palette thing, doesn't show the splash loading screen :(
[13:35:45] <HeTo> does not implement the VESA 2.0 standard, or does not have a good enough video mode (I think the splash requires 800x600x16-bit, or maybe 24/32-bit)
[13:36:37] <OmniMancer1> ah, the desktop loads well and it works from there
[13:36:40] <HeTo> in which case Haiku uses just plain VGA code to show a palette at 640x480x4-bit
[13:36:55] <HeTo> yeah, once you get to the desktop you have a video driver loaded
[13:37:46] <OmniMancer1> k
[13:37:52] <OmniMancer1> I am sad though :(
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[13:51:22] <StreaK|ON> ok, i've started image with VBox
[13:51:23] <StreaK|ON> :)
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[13:53:01] <OmniMancer1> :)
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[14:16:06] <DaneScott> dr_evil: Hello there
[14:17:33] <StreaK|ON> leszek: Is it possible to create app in YAB that could reside in Tracker Tray near clock [ like battery bar / net prefs ]?
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[14:24:45] <StreaK|ON> bbl
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[14:59:42] <{V}> (building a haiku vmware-image) Changing the image size should be done in UserBuildConfig, right?
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[15:03:10] <leszek> {V}, yes you are right
[15:03:26] <{V}> thx
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[16:15:41] <Jeremy23> Howdy...
[16:16:00] <Jeremy23> I have HDA Audio on an nForce MCP51, and I'm not getting any sound.
[16:16:11] <Jeremy23> If I drag the "Front" volume slider, I hear clicking in my headphones.
[16:16:22] <Jeremy23> And the clicking gets louder as I move the slider upwards, etc.
[16:16:39] <Jeremy23> But playing actual audio is silent. OSSv4 works fine, though.
[16:17:13] <Jeremy23> Is there some way I could help get this working?
[16:18:52] * Disreali_ is away: AFK
[16:19:27] <saivert> is it a giant feet or a giant feat? hahaha
[16:19:36] <saivert> I love english misspellings
[16:19:54] <Jeremy23> why do noses run and feet smell?
[16:19:58] <Jeremy23> :)
[16:20:12] <saivert> that is a good one too
[16:21:04] <Teknomancer> hmm
[16:21:12] <Teknomancer> :)
[16:21:20] <Teknomancer> Jeremy23: are you Jeremy who wrote BeShare?
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[16:21:28] <Jeremy23> Teknomancer gosh no
[16:21:32] <Teknomancer> ah :)
[16:21:45] <Jeremy23> I've never written C++ before, although I do C every now and then.
[16:21:56] <Jeremy23> My latest hobby has been compiling C apps for the Apple ][. :)
[16:22:09] <Teknomancer> C++ is nice for GUI based and userland stuff
[16:22:18] <Teknomancer> not sure i'd ever want it in the kernel though
[16:22:25] <Teknomancer> at least i don't find any compelling need there
[16:22:28] <Jeremy23> Cross-compile them on Linux using cc65, and transfer them to the Apple with ADT. :)
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[16:22:48] <Teknomancer> Adium
[16:22:50] <Teknomancer> got IRC plugin yet?
[16:22:57] <Teknomancer> last time i checked i had to compile it myself
[16:22:59] <Teknomancer> and i was "meh"
[16:23:38] <brennanos> did GoBE Productive come on the Zeta install CD's?  I cant remember?
[16:23:54] <Jeremy23> Dear LazyIRC, is it possible to remove a kernel driver from Haiku while it is running?
[16:23:57] <Jeremy23> i.e. without rebooting
[16:24:14] <Jeremy23> Because I want to load OpenSound, but I can't reboot, because I'm working from a live CD.
[16:24:28] <Teknomancer> brennanos: afaik, no
[16:24:30] <Jeremy23> But there is a native driver for my sound card loaded at the moment.
[16:24:39] <brennanos> hm
[16:24:40] <Teknomancer> should be possible
[16:24:46] <Teknomancer> as long as the driver has no references open
[16:24:48] <brennanos> I own it, but it wont install on Haiku
[16:24:52] <Teknomancer> but I've not done much driver stuff on haiku  (yet)
[16:24:57] <brennanos> if I recall, Senryu somehow had it
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[16:26:59] <Jeremy23> Does anybody know if stopping media services will unload the HDA driver?
[16:27:11] <Jeremy23> I can't tell, because I don't know how to list modules.
[16:27:20] <Jeremy23> What's an equivalent of lsmod for Haiku?
[16:27:31] <brennanos> Jeremy23: interesting hobby you've got there
[16:27:42] <Jeremy23> brennanos: hehe
[16:28:01] <Jeremy23> brennanos: apparently it's more fun if you learn 6502 assembly :)
[16:28:04] <brennanos> I can say that because Ive used the 6502 c compiler to compile C for the C64
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[16:29:08] <Jeremy23> nice
[16:29:19] <Jeremy23> what's the best way to transfer the app to the C64?
[16:29:26] <Jeremy23> on the Apple, I can just use serial
[16:29:35] <Jeremy23> do you use audio jacks or something?
[16:29:40] <Jeremy23> or does the C64 do serial too?
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[16:30:16] <brennanos> I was using an emulator
[16:30:26] <brennanos> but C64 bus was serial
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[16:30:52] <brennanos> the bus for the floppies
[16:31:08] <brennanos> its much easier to use an emulator
[16:31:10] <brennanos> heh
[16:31:15] <brennanos> but not nearly as cool
[16:31:25] <Jeremy23> yeah
[16:31:34] <Jeremy23> I couldn't get the emulator working for the Apple
[16:31:39] <Jeremy23> main reason why I lugged it out of the garage
[16:31:45] <Jeremy23> the power supply was dead
[16:31:50] <Jeremy23> so I hotwired it to an ATX power supply
[16:31:52] <Jeremy23> it worked :-D
[16:32:03] <Jeremy23> just a matter of googling the pinouts
[16:32:19] <Jeremy23> uses +12V, -12V, +5V, and -5V
[16:32:21] <Jeremy23> pretty simple
[16:32:42] <Jeremy23> alright, looks like killing media_server unloads the hda driver
[16:32:47] <Jeremy23> about to run OpenSound
[16:32:52] <Jeremy23> if I crash, I'll head to bed
[16:32:55] <Jeremy23> good night in advance :)
[16:33:58] <saivert> buy that MMC card to C64 adapter.
[16:34:04] <{V}> g'dnight Jeremy23. Good luck :)
[16:34:10] <saivert> plugs in to the cartridge port and the you can load programs from flash memory
[16:34:36] <Jeremy23> okay, it sorta worked
[16:34:47] <Jeremy23> sound is crap compared to when I tried it a few months ago
[16:34:51] <Jeremy23> sound is full of gaps
[16:34:58] <Jeremy23> but heck, it's from a live CD
[16:35:18] <Jeremy23> oh there ya go
[16:35:24] <Jeremy23> turn off real-time audio and it sounds fine
[16:35:24] <saivert> are you trying to play some SID music?
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[16:35:29] <Jeremy23> just an MP3
[16:35:51] <Jeremy23> I think I need to write a decent music player for Haiku
[16:36:03] * Jeremy23 wonders if it's possible to script MediaPlayer through 'hey'
[16:36:12] <DDevine> Jeremy23 in C++ or Bethon?
[16:36:20] <saivert> if you make a music player follow the foobar2000 spirit (windows player)
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[16:36:49] <Jeremy23> DDevine never heard of Bethon, but it looks cool
[16:37:02] <saivert> would be fun if you could provide source compatiblity for foobar2000 components
[16:37:02] <Jeremy23> oh crap, audio sucks
[16:37:08] <Jeremy23> full of gaps when I load the CPU
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[16:37:14] <saivert> so you can easily recompile foobar2000 components for Haiku
[16:37:27] <DDevine> I can get Haiku to output to an external monitor but I can't seem to get haiku to output to the external monitor and laptop screen at the same time.
[16:37:31] <DDevine> Any ideas?
[16:38:02] <Jeremy23> DDevine it's most likely a hardware function that's switching your display
[16:38:12] <Jeremy23> and Haiku is probably not even aware it's outputting to an external screen
[16:38:36] <Jeremy23> I know one of my old laptops had a BIOS setting that let me control that.
[16:38:47] <Jeremy23> I could tell it to toggle between external/internal, or do cloning, etc.
[16:40:09] <Jeremy23> AFAIK Haiku doesn't have any software support for external displays, so if you do get it working, it'll likely be a hardware-based solution.
[16:40:17] <brennanos> interesting, the GoBE trial installs and runs fine
[16:41:37] <DDevine> Jeremy23, no I have to get it to output by toggling "swap displays"
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[16:41:54] <DDevine> It swaps once, but the second time I click it it does not swap back.
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[16:42:31] <DDevine> Jeremy23 I checked my bios to see if I could do what you describe... sadly I can't.
[16:44:20] <Jeremy23> :(
[16:44:22] <DDevine> I am aiming to be able to do the presentation on my laptop running Haiku, so I need to be able to see both my screen and also have external output...
[16:44:44] <Jeremy23> DDevine: presenting at a LUG?
[16:46:14] <Jeremy23> well it's waaaay too late for me
[16:46:15] <Jeremy23> bedtime
[16:46:18] <Jeremy23> 'night
[16:46:18] <saivert> so multi-monitor support for Haiku is next up?
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[16:47:51] <brennanos> hm, maybe I can transfer it from my BeOS box
[16:48:56] <saivert>  http://pc.watch.impress.co.jp/img/pcw/docs/318/660/02.jpg
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[16:49:06] <saivert> anyone buying this? or is it ATI ATI ATI ATI
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[16:56:00] <brennanos> anyone have any idea why the GoBE installer on the CD thinks its done with the install before it has actually copied any files?
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[17:03:32] <adamk_> brennanos, I had the same problem.
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[17:03:50] <adamk_> I installed it on an R5 installation in vbox or qemu and then copied it over.
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[17:08:51] <GeneralMaximus> hi :)
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[17:11:51] <DnS> http://pouet.scene.org/prodlist.php?platform[]=BeOS
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[17:34:12] <jprostko> #wplug
[17:34:20] <jprostko> darn, don't mind my crappy typing
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[17:41:13] <leszek> re
[17:41:29] <leszek> is the bezilla browser working on the latest revision ?
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[17:44:16] <jprostko> leszek: it should be.  that said, i'm using the latest bezilla (from http://haiku-files.org/files/optional-packages/ ) with a r33299 gcc4 hybrid.
[17:44:43] <jprostko> are you having issues with it?  or just inquiring?
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[17:45:27] <leszek> jprostko, having issues with 33396 and the included bezilla there
[17:45:42] <mmadia> what sorts of issues?
[17:45:52] <leszek> it starts but then after 1sec the gui freezes
[17:46:04] <mmadia> do you have NetSurf installed?
[17:46:08] <leszek> no
[17:47:05] <mmadia> a clean ~/config/settings/Mozilla directory?
[17:47:28] <leszek> should be clean, as I build the image couple of hours ago
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[17:50:27] <leszek> mmadia, I created a new profile the issue is still there. It freezes completely so only killing the team helps
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[17:52:36] <mmadia> ok... in a bit, i'll load up a gcc4hybrid here to look at it.  fwiw, it was built on r33330-gcc4 (pure)
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[18:31:36] <StreaK|ON> re
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[18:35:20] <saivert> I'm still getting KDL on boot after I reboot Haiku first time after a rebuild
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[18:38:10] <jmayfield> dumb
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[18:39:28] <saivert> I can rebuild it, then boot into Haiku perfectly fine. But if I'm then rebooting it goes to KDL
[18:39:35] <saivert> so then I have to boot into Linux again and do a rebuild
[18:40:02] <saivert> I guess a configuration file of some sort gets modified upon first boot.
[18:40:11] <saivert> and this configuration file is reset everytime you do a rebuild
[18:42:06] <saivert> looking through the syslog now
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[18:45:10] <saivert> okay. I got at the end of syslog: read access attempted on read-protected area 0x48 at 0xfffff000
[18:46:02] <saivert> then a : vm_page_fault: vm_soft_fault returned error 'Permission denied' on fault at 0xffffffe4, ip 0x800e4694, write 0, user 0, thread 0xc
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[18:47:03] <StreaK|ON> Hey guys im lookin' for QuickFox [ archives on bebits dont exist ]
[18:47:28] <saivert> http://haiku.pastebin.com/m1cde3a36
[18:49:19] <tqh> saivert, you are trying to write to a partition?
[18:49:47] <saivert> no. just trying to boot Haiku
[18:50:01] <saivert> First time you boot it's all fine and dandy. Second time, KDL
[18:50:18] <tqh> ah, I misread your pastebin
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[18:58:45] <PieterPan> Howdy
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[19:01:11] <{V}> StreaK|ON, I can't help you get QuickFox, but are you sure you're not better of using the regular firefox for beos build and putting that on a ramdisk ?
[19:01:57] <{V}> StreaK|ON, perhaps the "great browser-method idea for beos" post on http://www.bebits.com/talkback/4222 can help
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[19:06:27] <DnS> saivert : is it related ? http://dev.haiku-os.org/ticket/2902
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[19:24:16] <CIA-46> pulkomandy * r33397 /haiku/trunk/src/preferences/bluetooth/ (Jamfile de.catkeys): German localization for bluetooth preflet, done by svend. Thanks !
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[19:27:46] <CIA-46> pulkomandy * r33398 /haiku/trunk/src/preferences/appearance/de.catkeys: Patch by Colin: improve the appearance german localization.
[19:28:00] <HaikUbuntu> Hello all
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[19:28:36] <{V}> 'lo HaikUbuntu
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[19:29:20] <HaikUbuntu> how are you ?
[19:29:48] <HaikUbuntu> umccullough, mmadia you're there ?
[19:30:29] <mmadia> hi HaikUbuntu.
[19:30:41] <HaikUbuntu> hi
[19:31:43] <HaikUbuntu> I was contacted by mail by cafepress then tchat, they told me that the goods have been blocked by the carrier, but they will send me a new, but if I get the original, I can keep it, but I tell them anyway.
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[19:32:31] <HaikUbuntu> The caller was very friendly.
[19:32:48] <mmadia> that's good to hear.
[19:33:07] <HaikUbuntu> Now I wait
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[19:33:59] <CIA-46> pulkomandy * r33399 /haiku/trunk/src/preferences/cpufrequency/de.catkeys: Improved german localization for cpufrequency preflet, done by Colin. Thanks!
[19:34:30] <saivert> how to copy text from kdl when you have no serial port?
[19:34:32] <HaikUbuntu> I also thank you to you for your dedication
[19:34:38] <saivert> can you store it on the partition somewhere+
[19:34:55] <saivert> I don't want to type out the "bt" output manually
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[19:35:58] <HaikUbuntu> Long Life in Haiku :)
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[19:37:48] <Vision2> Its October; where are the nightlies at? I want to continue testing.
[19:38:15] <saivert> build it yourself
[19:38:44] <Vision2> Sure. I'll get right on that with all that free time I have.
[19:38:57] <saivert> or ask someone to build for you
[19:39:32] <Vision2> You're diverting the question and wasting my time.
[19:39:34] <kwag> @Vision2: Just install the R1, and sycn to with SVN and
[19:39:53] <Vision2> Holy crap, if you don't know the answer then don't respond!
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[19:40:13] <kwag> @Vision2: Just install the R1, and sync  with SVN. Then you can create new CDs or images to flash.
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[19:40:47] <saivert> there are no nightlies yet
[19:40:49] <adamk_> Heh...
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[19:43:24] <saivert> http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c276/saivert/kdl.jpg
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[19:44:51] <mmadia> it's not night :P
[19:45:19] <mmadia> kidding ...  the machine is in a build cycle.
[19:46:12] <mmadia> the index pages haven't been updated yet, so thing's won't look pretty for the time being.
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[19:54:35] <saivert> booting in safe mode works though
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[20:00:22] <leszek> a haikuware.com admin here ?
[20:02:08] * PieterPan waits impatiently until haiku is built. Must say it builds a lot slower inside Haiku :)
[20:02:30] <saivert> so build it on Linux then
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[20:04:37] <PieterPan> saivert I have, but now I'm working on a devices application that I want to integrate into Haiku, so it is easiest to build and run from inside Haiku
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[20:04:59] <PieterPan> Once the whole haiku is built, I only have to rebuild my app, so it is not too much time :)
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[20:06:22] <DaneScott> aldeck
[20:06:53] <DaneScott> PieterPan:  What app are you working on?
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[20:07:16] <DaneScott> sb StreaK|ON
[20:07:34] <PieterPan> DaneScott I'm working on the new Devices application, see http://dev.haiku-os.org/ticket/3185
[20:07:49] <DaneScott> great
[20:07:52] <PieterPan> Finally found some time to finish the first basic version and integrate it into the Haiku build system
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[20:09:33] <StreaK|ON> re
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[20:09:39] <brennanos> hello
[20:09:46] <brennanos> does anyone have IM Kit running on Haiku?
[20:11:13] <DaneScott> PieterPan:  How is it coming along?
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[20:15:04] <PieterPan> DaneScott it is about as far as the screenshot you see here: http://dev.haiku-os.org/attachment/ticket/3185/category_view.png
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[20:15:33] <PieterPan> Right now the information is put as text into the TextView, this will be improved
[20:15:43] <DaneScott> oh, very nice!
[20:16:12] <PieterPan> Looking into BColumnListView to arrange the data, just as in the Sounds preflet
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[20:16:37] <PieterPan> Currently only PCI devices, and the devices the kernel DeviceManager is presenting
[20:16:58] <PieterPan> DaneScott if you're in Haiku you should be able to try out the attached zip file of the ticket
[20:17:01] <DaneScott> This will be a nice addition when it's done.
[20:17:16] <PieterPan> Thanks, I think so too, will be nice to see what's in your system
[20:17:19] <DaneScott> Not presently in Haiku - on a mac.
[20:17:33] <DaneScott> PieterPan:  My system?
[20:17:41] <DaneScott> Oh, I see what you mean.
[20:17:57] <DaneScott> Nice for a person to be able to see what's in his system.
[20:18:27] <DaneScott> Must flee...ttyl!
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[20:19:08] <DnS> http://www.haikuware.com/20091001433/oct-2009-tya-winner-rudolf-cornelissen
[20:19:27] <DnS> hey what about others guys :p
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[20:19:58] <monsoon> :)
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[20:20:19] * PieterPan mumbles
[20:20:37] <DnS> brennanos : me
[20:20:38] <PieterPan> I think I stressed Haiku too much, crashed it :)
[20:21:50] <PieterPan> Congratts Rudolf for winning the TYA :)
[20:22:21] <brennanos> DnS: did you build from the osdrawer source?
[20:22:32] <PieterPan> I think he's done nice work on the NVidia drivers
[20:22:47] <PieterPan> anyway, back to work
[20:23:02] <DnS> ya but do a dirty correction to get it compile
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[20:23:26] <brennanos> mine complained about missing libyahoo and so on... I suppose I need to get those first?
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[20:31:59] <DnS> brennanos :http://cinque.yacme.com/~fiorini/haiku/im_kit-dependencies/
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[20:35:10] <DnS> brennanos : look at im_kit Wiki for instructions ;)
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[20:39:25] <kwag> Could someone point me in the correct direction, so when I build from sources on Haiku, the generated ISO/IMG will also contain dev tools? Currently only "End-User" stuff gets to the final images, but no dev tools. Thanks.
[20:41:26] <PieterPan> kwag if I'm not mistaken this is an optional package
[20:42:31] <kwag> Is there a build flag or something I have to include when I run "jam -q haiku-cd" ?
[20:42:47] <PieterPan> have a look at build/jam/OptionalPackages for which ones are available
[20:43:04] <DnS> cya all
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[20:43:05] <PieterPan> kwag yes, have a look at the UserBuildConfig.Readme
[20:43:14] <PieterPan> It is quite helpfull
[20:43:14] <StreaK|ON> why my SD card is always automounted as ReadOnly, but when i putting PenDrive i have a choice ReadOnly / RW
[20:43:21] <StreaK|ON> in haiku
[20:43:26] <StreaK|ON> ? strance
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[20:43:28] <PieterPan> Especially to have build profiles
[20:43:30] <StreaK|ON> strange
[20:43:37] <PieterPan> StreaK|ON no idea, sorry :)
[20:43:42] <dr_evil3> PieterPan i think that is a bug
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[20:47:39] <aljen> hey
[20:50:23] <idefix_dommel> StreaK|ON: is the switch on the SD card set to lock?
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[20:55:44] <StreaK|ON> of course NOT :)
[20:55:56] <StreaK|ON> Read enabled :)
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[20:56:21] <brennanos> does BeIDE run under Haiku?
[20:56:31] <brennanos> I always really liked BeIDE
[20:57:14] <PieterPan> brennanos Try Paladin
[20:57:19] <kwag> @PieterPan: Thank you! - It's all well documented in OptionalPackages. Cheers!
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[20:57:31] <PieterPan> It is a BeIDE clone (and improved)
[20:57:43] <PieterPan> kwag np, enjoy
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[20:58:39] <StreaK|ON> yeah, Palladin is teh best option for now on Haiku..
[20:58:57] <StreaK|ON> Maybe someday Daiku will be better, when goes mature
[20:59:37] <idefix_dommel> StreaK|ON: just checking ;)
[20:59:59] <StreaK|ON> :P
[21:00:11] <idefix_dommel> Which filesystem is on the card?
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[21:01:21] <StreaK|ON> fat
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[21:03:16] <idefix_dommel> well it should ask then
[21:03:18] <idefix_dommel> (just checked here with a SD card set to locked and even then Haiku ask if you want to mount it read/write)
[21:06:07] <leszek> idefix_dommel, I don't think there is a way to detect this or does any other operating system detect it ?
[21:07:24] <idefix_dommel> well, Windows mount the card read-only if its set to locked
[21:07:34] <brennanos> hm all the dropdown lists in Gobe cause a crash
[21:07:59] <brennanos> that sucks
[21:10:25] <StreaK|ON> hmm.. maybe its SD card controller problem..
[21:10:31] <StreaK|ON> im using MSI Wind
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[21:15:03] <brennanos> hm, PalEdit immediately crashes
[21:15:24] <PieterPan> brennanos I also have that, so I use PE for now
[21:15:42] <PieterPan> You can leave a comment at bebits, Darkwyrm listens there
[21:16:20] * PieterPan celebrates victory, Devices now compiles using Jam and lives inside the Haiku source tree.
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[21:16:21] <Dane_> Does anyone know the status of browser projects for Haiku?
[21:16:31] <Dane_> Any of them getting close?
[21:16:34] <PieterPan> Now I just have to clean up the code and fix up some bits
[21:16:48] <Dane_> congrats PieterPan
[21:17:27] <PieterPan> Thanks :) Not sure what the status is of the natiive browser, other than the latest blog posts and the GSOC review
[21:17:55] <Dane_> PieterPan Is there a name for the native browser?
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[21:18:36] <brennanos> yeah, just created a link to Pe in the Paladin folder and named it PalEdit
[21:18:50] <PieterPan> Dane_ Nope, but there's a really long thread on the Haiku-os forum to find a name :)
[21:18:55] <Dane_> k
[21:18:58] <Dane_> tx
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[21:20:38] <leszek> gn8@all
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[21:20:50] <PieterPan> n8
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[21:23:58] * IIsi50MHz looks around
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[21:24:12] <IIsi50MHz> Yay, Devices
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[21:25:41] <IIsi50MHz> So...um, I've broken rdesktop. I'm not sure how.
[21:26:33] <IIsi50MHz> Now whenever I tried to launch it, it complains about a missin library.
[21:27:22] <IIsi50MHz> By finding the library and dropping it /lib, I'm able to make it tell me that it needs a second library.
[21:27:23] <Dane_> haiku-os.com might benefit from a mention in the top part of the home page of the availability of the live CD
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[21:27:55] <PieterPan> gotta go, bye
[21:28:06] *** PieterPan has quit IRC
[21:28:07] <Dane_> or at least, make that the highlight of the Merchandise frame, rather than the t-shirt, for now
[21:28:08] <IIsi50MHz> I drop the second in, and it needs a third. I drop the third in...and I get told rdesktop is not an application.
[21:30:04] <IIsi50MHz> I compared /lib on my system to /lib in the backup, and found lots of extra libraries on my system.
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[21:30:43] <IIsi50MHz> So I guess I could start dragging sets in and out until I find a combination that works.
[21:30:57] <IIsi50MHz> I just don't know if the libraries are the problem.
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[21:51:25] <CIA-46> leavengood * r33400 /haiku/trunk/headers/private/screen_saver/ (BuildScreenSaverDefaultSettingsView.h ScreenSaverRunner.h):
[21:51:25] <CIA-46> Adding a private header with a method that can be used to provide a consistent
[21:51:25] <CIA-46> default look for the settings of screen savers without complicated settings
[21:51:25] <CIA-46> views. This is based on the code originally in the ScreenSaver preferences
[21:51:25] <CIA-46> window.
[21:51:29] <CIA-46> Also fixed a type in the ScreenSaverRunner header.
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[22:03:58] <CIA-46> pulkomandy * r33401 /haiku/trunk/ (7 files in 2 dirs):
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[22:20:31] <CIA-46> leavengood * r33402 /haiku/trunk/src/preferences/screensaver/ScreenSaverWindow.cpp:
[22:20:31] <CIA-46> basically the same code.)
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[22:33:50] <kirilla> I have this testing Haiku habit where I open all apps, and all preferences
[22:34:23] <kirilla> and I always confuse myself, having accidentally, or unconsciously changed the keymap, in the Keymap preferences
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[22:34:31] <JonathanThompson> Open them all at once and see if you hit a threading limit in the App_Server, kirilla ;)
[22:34:51] <kirilla> and then wondering why I can't close the windows, using Alt-W or Alt-Q.. the Belarussion keymap or whatever, being so different
[22:34:59] <JonathanThompson> Open all the windows you can for all apps, and push it, perhaps over the edge by opening a menu :)
[22:35:11] <kirilla> JonathanThompson: Oh, it's no problem
[22:35:18] <kirilla> I think... ;)
[22:35:30] <JonathanThompson> Does Haiku have a thread count limit per app like BeOS?
[22:35:33] <kirilla> I will try querying for all apps and open everyone
[22:35:55] <kirilla> I don't know to be honest
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[22:37:41] <JonathanThompson> I regularly ran into that issue in BeOS in the App_Server, with unpleasant results.
[22:38:02] <JonathanThompson> You'd only find you had pushed it too far by deadlocking that app's window when opening a menu, or at least trying to.
[22:38:30] <JonathanThompson> Then you'd be forced to close a window if you could, without using a menu, to get down below the count, so you can do other things :P
[22:38:58] <OmniMancer> lol
[22:39:28] <kirilla> that sounds awfully much like what happens when running out of memory in BeOS, having turned off virtual memory
[22:39:35] <JonathanThompson> Meanwhile, OmniMancer, you'd never be able to kill that dead window and menu that was left behind :P
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[22:39:55] <JonathanThompson> Only rebooting solved it.
[22:39:59] <kirilla> windows stop redrawing, and not even the Team Monitor can open
[22:40:04] <OmniMancer> :(
[22:40:14] <OmniMancer> can't even force app_server to kill thread?
[22:40:15] <kirilla> that was in BeOS
[22:40:30] <OmniMancer> well I have a problem in the alpha
[22:40:41] <OmniMancer> if the linker uses too much memory it dies with an error
[22:40:55] <kirilla> wanna swap? ;)
[22:41:24] <OmniMancer> I cannot build debug llvm in my virtual machine because of it
[22:42:08] <kirilla> brb
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[22:42:57] <OmniMancer> k
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[22:46:15] <CIA-46> leavengood * r33403 /haiku/trunk/ (4 files in 3 dirs):
[22:46:15] <CIA-46> Suggestion from Rene:
[22:46:15] <CIA-46> libscreensaver.so and under the BPrivate namespace. This avoids the repetition
[22:46:15] <CIA-46> of the compiled code in each screen saver that uses it.
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[22:50:25] <kirilla> re
[22:52:09] <kirilla> OmniMancer: how much real and virtual memory does Haiku have in the vm, and do you know how much the linker uses when it crashes?
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[22:53:00] <OmniMancer> I can give it about 600MB max
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[22:53:15] <OmniMancer> and it's when it fills the real memory that it crashes :P
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[22:54:45] * JonathanThompson strongly suspects that issue may have been fixed post-alpha R1
[22:54:50] <JonathanThompson> I may be wrong, though.
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[22:55:14] <OmniMancer> possibly
[22:55:28] <OmniMancer> but I need a nightly build to tell
[22:55:41] <OmniMancer> and also can one install something over a previous installation/
[22:55:57] <JonathanThompson> I think you'd be best off doing a clean install.
[22:56:10] <JonathanThompson> Backup your home directory and blow away the rest.
[22:56:21] <OmniMancer> so I need to make another disk then, k
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[23:00:46] <kirilla> OmniMancer: maybe the disk image is too small to fit a decent pagefile?
[23:00:55] <OmniMancer> oh no
[23:01:01] <OmniMancer> it has 1 gb of pagefile
[23:01:09] <OmniMancer> I even turned it up to 2gb of pagefile
[23:01:25] <OmniMancer> it still always crashes when it gets to a certain point
[23:01:37] <OmniMancer> or maybe it has filled the pagefile I don't know
[23:01:45] <CIA-46> leavengood * r33404 /haiku/trunk/src/add-ons/screen_savers/debugnow/ (DebugNow.cpp Jamfile): (log message trimmed)
[23:01:45] <CIA-46> Appropriately based on the name, DebugNow was full of bugs:
[23:01:45] <CIA-46> offset of the text rendering, which can be gotten from the left value of the
[23:01:45] <CIA-46> rect returned by GetBoundingBoxesForStrings. I'm pretty sure this was 0 on
[23:01:49] <CIA-46> BeOS, so there might be problems with our GetBoundingBoxesForStrings. It
[23:01:50] <CIA-46> doesn't make sense for flat edged glyphs like D and N to be offset. But
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[23:05:50] <kirilla> JonathanThompson: app_server didn't like opening 500+ apps
[23:06:11] <JonathanThompson> No? :P
[23:06:22] <JonathanThompson> How'd it respond?
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[23:07:16] <JonathanThompson> I don't mind if a system has an upper limit: but, it must fail in a sane, recoverable manner.
[23:07:19] <kirilla> crashed.. white screen, full-screen gdb
[23:07:26] <JonathanThompson> So much for that theory :P
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[23:07:36] <JonathanThompson> But, was that App_Server's limitation, or the system in general?
[23:07:48] <JonathanThompson> That is, not a limitation of App_Server?
[23:07:54] <kirilla> mouse pointer movement still possible and everything still running underneath
[23:08:11] <kirilla> probably not a limitation but an actual crashing bug somewhere
[23:08:20] <OmniMancer> :o
[23:08:30] <JonathanThompson> That's why these things must be tested :P
[23:08:35] <OmniMancer> yea I get fullscreen gdb sometimes due to switching workspaces
[23:08:42] <JonathanThompson> Inevitably, someone will do exactly this sort of thing, intentionally or not.
[23:09:19] <kirilla> app_server is one of the most complex parts of the Haiku (and BeOS), so there's potential for hard to find bugs
[23:09:32] <JonathanThompson> The correct response: "I cannot change the laws of physics, captain, I'm giving you all she's got!" in a dialog box.
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[23:10:14] <OmniMancer> yes
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[23:10:43] * JonathanThompson poits BePhantom on entry
[23:11:57] * BePhantom narfs JonathanThompson on atmospheric reentry
[23:12:14] * JonathanThompson renews BePhantom's ablative shielding free of charge
[23:13:06] <BePhantom> what's up :)
[23:13:15] <JonathanThompson> Positive Y axis :)
[23:13:27] <BePhantom> hehe
[23:13:39] <Ketsuban> Unless it's a computer screen, in which case up is the negative Y axis.
[23:13:56] <OmniMancer> :D
[23:13:57] <JonathanThompson> That's not even universal, Ketsuban ;)
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[23:14:36] <OmniMancer> so haiku will have positive y being up?
[23:14:39] <JonathanThompson> As someone once said, the great thing about standards is that there's so many to choose from :P
[23:14:47] <BePhantom> so I made up my mind about the computer hardware :D
[23:15:17] <JonathanThompson> To BeOS, or not to BeOS, that is the hardware question?
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[23:15:38] <OmniMancer> there are infinitely many standards for anything :P
[23:15:46] <OmniMancer> some of them aren't documented yet :P
[23:16:39] <jmayfield> BePhantom: remember.. computers are f'ing evil and shold be avoided when/where possible
[23:17:16] <BePhantom> Asus M4N78 PRO mobo, 2GB RAM, Phenom II X2 550 (Black Edition), 160GB HD, etc
[23:17:23] <JonathanThompson> Barring that, jmayfield, make a pact with the best devils :P
[23:17:43] <jmayfield> well, in my case the devil is a mouse
[23:17:45] <jmayfield> but yeah
[23:18:20] * JonathanThompson wonders if any shoes with hopes of becoming the best in the world sell their soles to the devil
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[23:19:09] <thowe> hello
[23:19:11] <BePhantom> jmayfield, it's like saying guns are evil... people who use it are
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[23:19:58] <jmayfield> BePhantom: no.. computers are evil. i own many guns and many computers.. computers have caused me infinitely more pain
[23:19:59] <{V}> JonathanThompson, good one :)
[23:20:07] * JonathanThompson bow-wows
[23:20:44] <BePhantom> jmayfield, no, they are not... you're just crazy :D
[23:20:51] * thowe wonders what he's walked into this time...
[23:21:02] <jmayfield> perhaps i am crazy.. must be due to all the computer use
[23:21:26] <JonathanThompson> Or perhaps you were crazy and that's what led you into the computer use, jmayfield ;)
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[23:21:38] <jmayfield> BePhantom: trust me.. distance yourself from them while youre still young-ish
[23:21:44] <{V}> thowe, check echelog (find url in channel topic) to find out
[23:21:50] <jmayfield> hehe
[23:22:00] <JonathanThompson> What, or he'll end up going down /dev/null as an oldster? :)
[23:22:08] <BePhantom> jmayfield, it's kinda late, I'm an adult :D
[23:22:18] <jmayfield> f'ing about with computers is no way to spend yer life
[23:22:23] <JonathanThompson> Bah, you're still an oversized puppy, BePhantom :P
[23:22:50] <jmayfield> ..says a guy who's made a career out of f'ing with computers
[23:22:55] <jmayfield> ..but still
[23:23:19] <JonathanThompson> A lot of people complain about keeping up with the rat race...
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[23:23:28] <JonathanThompson> The computer industry is a rat race on steroids.
[23:23:37] <jmayfield> pick up a real trade, like farming or cabinet making
[23:23:47] <JonathanThompson> Or cat-stretching!
[23:23:55] <JonathanThompson> Plenty of stiff cats need your attention!
[23:23:58] <jmayfield> my not yield much money, but its undeniably useful and worthwhile
[23:24:04] <thowe> I recently discovered I have a thinning spot on the back of my head.  I blame this career.
[23:24:24] <thowe> .me would rather be a farmer
[23:24:29] <thowe> er
[23:24:35] * thowe would rather be a farmer
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[23:26:09] <kirilla> I wish I had a thinning spot
[23:26:28] <thowe> I want to be a consultant.  The folks across the street are paying some douche to figure out what project tracker they should use...
[23:26:30] <kirilla> or maybe not :)
[23:26:46] * JonathanThompson this out kirilla's spot
[23:26:53] <thowe> I and half the developers over there are saying "just grab track or Redmine".
[23:26:59] * JonathanThompson thins out kirilla's spot
[23:27:16] <thowe> But the consultant shot Redmine down because "Redmine doesn't appear to be a real company".
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[23:27:42] <kirilla> "there are many spots in the world, but this one is mine"
[23:27:46] <thowe> they've dropped thousands on this guy for two months now.  I want that job.
[23:27:52] <jmayfield> heh
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[23:28:24] <thowe> This guy's business card has got to say "ignorant douchebag"
[23:28:28] <kirilla> suit on!
[23:28:32] <jmayfield> i just want some land, a nice shop of tools, and everybody to leave me alone
[23:28:33] <thowe> it's that bad.
[23:29:04] <jmayfield> last thing i need is to have to deal with more people
[23:29:16] <thowe> jmayfield, me too, but I would prefer to be surrounded by like-minded folks to cooperate with.
[23:29:35] <jmayfield> me
[23:29:37] <jmayfield> meh
[23:29:47] <thowe> I'm kind of a Mutual Aid kind of guy.
[23:29:57] <jmayfield> people are best when on the other end of a line (phone/irc/etc)
[23:30:13] <thowe> Yes, this life has made you bitter.
[23:30:21] <jmayfield> friends and family excluded
[23:30:24] <thowe> have a beer
[23:30:26] <jmayfield> not bitter
[23:30:39] <kirilla> jmayfield: or a 300 baud bulletin board ;)
[23:30:44] <jmayfield> i am likely one of the more optimistic folks you'll meet
[23:31:11] <jmayfield> i just knwo where i belong, and its not around lots of people
[23:31:15] <JonathanThompson> You're fully expecting things to go wrong at the worst possible moment, and you're absolutely positive about that? :P
[23:31:20] <JonathanThompson> An optimistic pessimist? :)
[23:31:23] <thowe> I try to like the peoples...  But then I ride the bus with them and after it drops me off I try to blow it up with my mind.
[23:31:40] <kirilla> 'splode
[23:31:48] <jmayfield> i like people.. i really do.. i just dont need them anywhere near me
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[23:32:10] <kirilla> hehe :)
[23:32:20] <kirilla> I can relate somewhat
[23:32:40] <kirilla> I like people, in small enough portions
[23:32:48] <jmayfield> i am very much a small town kind of person
[23:32:53] <thowe> it is good to have your space that you can keep others out of.
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[23:34:31] <thowe> c'mon guys, group hug
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[23:35:41] <jmayfield> grew pug
[23:36:34] <jmayfield> heh.. speaking of silly word games.. i reminded people in a meeting today that "Shatner" is also a sentance fragment.. as in, "the cat shatner flowerbed"
[23:37:17] <thowe> My favorite is momenems
[23:37:43] <thowe> Momenems getting together to make a quilt.  Momenems making turkey dinner.
[23:37:58] <thowe> Momenems = your mother and her peer group.
[23:39:03] <OmniMancer> bbl
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[23:47:16] <CIA-46> leavengood * r33405 /haiku/trunk/src/add-ons/screen_savers/ (6 files in 3 dirs):
[23:47:16] <CIA-46> Updated the screensavers Haiku, Icons and Message to use the new default
[23:47:16] <CIA-46> settings view function.
[23:47:16] <CIA-46> Also some clean-up.
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   October 1, 2009  
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