October 28, 2008 
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October 28, 2008 [00:01:02] *** adb has quit IRC[00:01:16] *** adb has joined #haiku[00:05:25] *** petterhj has quit IRC[00:05:56] *** zizban has left #haiku[00:07:18] <miqlas> Can i save the commands output somehow in KDL?[00:07:26] <digitalteufel> mmadia, I'll probably be making a new Backgrounds app soon anyway.[00:07:40] <miqlas> Maybe with bt > bt.txt ?[00:07:48] <mmu_man> src/libs/icon/style/GradientTransformable.h:21: Gradient.h: No such file or directory[00:07:53] <mmu_man> NOoooooooo[00:07:55] <mmu_man> WTF[00:08:13] <mmu_man> f*[00:08:36] <mmu_man> can't build Icon-O-Matic for BeOS anymore[00:08:45] *** petterhj has joined #haiku[00:11:05] *** DHowett has joined #haiku[00:13:11] *** _Guma_ has quit IRC[00:13:29] <digitalteufel> What is the /etc directory for? Shouldn't that stuff be in /Haiku/common?[00:14:41] <anarchos> digitalteufel: posix compliance?[00:17:58] <digitalteufel> I wouldn't know.[00:18:42] <anarchos> i think that's why it's there. that and that is what beos had, so...[00:18:51] *** thebolt has quit IRC[00:19:06] *** AlienSoldier has joined #haiku[00:24:39] *** ari2-free has quit IRC[00:25:52] *** miqlas has quit IRC[00:27:46] *** ari2-free has joined #haiku[00:31:22] <replaced> anarchos: i dont think its in posix[00:32:54] <anarchos> well isnt a semi-standard file system structure part of posix?[00:33:01] <anarchos> i could be wrong, i just always thought that[00:36:34] *** ThomasShirley has quit IRC[00:44:54] *** Master199 has joined #haiku[00:48:41] *** adb has left #haiku[00:52:37] *** Korli has quit IRC[00:53:18] *** luroh has quit IRC[00:57:16] *** miqlas has joined #haiku[00:58:58] <miqlas> In the ProcessController if i try to kill an team why the "Yes, kill this team" button is the preselected? Maybe can somebody kill the Kernel teambecause this preselect. Why not the "Cancel" is the preselected?[00:59:51] *** TheNerd_ has joined #haiku[01:01:53] *** Master199 has quit IRC[01:10:33] *** dr_evil has quit IRC[01:16:02] *** TheNerd has quit IRC[01:18:08] <mmu_man> because you're supposed to know what you do[01:18:13] <mmu_man> besides, you can't kill the kernel[01:18:21] <mmu_man> (or at least shouldn't be able to, else it's a bug)[01:18:58] <Andrius> killing the kernel sounds fun[01:22:35] *** spuopolo has joined #haiku[01:26:09] <DHowett> ood, synaptics thinger! I like the sound of this![01:29:24] *** mmadia has quit IRC[01:32:09] <miqlas> osdrawer.net is dead: http://dev.osdrawer.net/[01:32:47] <miqlas> now it works[01:33:03] *** anarchos has quit IRC[01:42:32] *** ormandj has joined #haiku[01:44:08] <ormandj> boo[01:45:43] *** Dane_ has quit IRC[01:46:10] *** oco has quit IRC[01:47:18] *** ddew|bofh has joined #haiku[01:47:21] <ddew|bofh> HELO[01:47:30] *** TheNerd_ has quit IRC[01:47:45] <DHowett> ddew|bofh: 250 #haiku[01:47:55] <ormandj> EHLO[01:48:15] <ddew|bofh> DHowett: hey, i've been meaning to ping you. :)[01:48:18] <DHowett> o_O[01:48:29] <ddew|bofh> any word on the rtl81xx driver for the aspire one?[01:48:58] <DHowett> nein.. i stopped working on my modifications to rtl8169 because of the re driver for 8100 (which apparently has some.. issues?)[01:49:09] *** plfiorini has quit IRC[01:49:15] <ddew|bofh> some slight issues, like locking up the system :)[01:49:18] <DHowett> If you've got the One and need a quick fix I've got the patch somewhere :)[01:49:35] <ddew|bofh> it'd be great if you could dig that up[01:49:42] *** TheNerd_ has joined #haiku[01:49:46] <ddew|bofh> the aaone is an awesome haiku machine :)[01:50:14] <DHowett> ddew|bofh: http://alaric.ath.cx/~dustin/rtl8169-8102e.patch[01:50:17] *** zizban has joined #haiku[01:50:21] <DHowett> assuming that the RTL NICs in all the Ones are the same :)[01:50:37] <ddew|bofh> they ought to be :)[01:50:46] <DHowett> and yes, it's an incredible machine for Haiku :)[01:50:46] <ddew|bofh> any stability issues with it?[01:50:54] <DHowett> none that I've seen[01:50:59] <ddew|bofh> cool[01:53:00] <mmu_man> ?[01:55:43] <ddew|bofh> aw man, i'm _this_ close to getting an SSD for the smackbook[01:56:02] <ormandj> wait a month[01:56:05] <ormandj> faster/cheaper[01:56:06] <zizban> so close[01:56:10] <ormandj> wait another month, faster/cheaper[01:56:12] <ormandj> etc etc :)[01:56:15] <zizban> ya every month the price drops more[01:56:24] <ormandj> ssd's have been *really* zipping down in price[01:56:35] <zizban> 1 got a 1 gig usb drive for $10[01:56:42] <ddew|bofh> well i can wait another 6 months and it'll be even cheaper. but it'd be nice to have it some time this century[01:56:48] <zizban> 1 gig was the size of my first pc's HD :)[01:56:53] <ormandj> lol[01:56:59] <ormandj> i had a 4 meg drive in my first hd-bearing pc[01:57:00] <ormandj> :p[01:57:09] <ddew|bofh> computer stuff always gets cheaper with time :)[01:57:19] <Rakhun> and smaller[01:57:20] <zizban> heh[01:57:23] <ormandj> yeah, but ssd's are *really* dropping quickly[01:57:27] <zizban> now get off my lawn! :P[01:57:36] <ormandj> there's always the argument that you have to pick a point and buy[01:57:51] <ormandj> but generally when something is in a vertical free fall for price, and vertical rocket-like rise in capacity and speed[01:57:57] <ormandj> it's wise to wait till it tapers off a bit[01:57:57] <ormandj> :p[01:58:03] *** TheNerd_ has quit IRC[02:01:32] <zizban> heh[02:01:39] <ddew|bofh> i'm in the "buy stuff when it's not painful any more"[02:01:44] <ddew|bofh> *camp[02:02:03] <ddew|bofh> i wait til the prices drop to affordable levels[02:02:29] <ddew|bofh> only problem atm is voiding the warranty[02:03:03] <zizban> warrantys are for the weak[02:03:55] <ddew|bofh> well it's a 2500$ mbp i bought in august[02:04:24] <zizban> hey, no guts no glory[02:04:36] <zizban> of course that's easy for me to say[02:05:05] <ddew|bofh> i'm all for that usually, i've voided warranties on stuff far more expensive than that. but i'm uncomfortable given the failurerate of those machines[02:05:35] <zizban> yup[02:06:10] <ddew|bofh> and new motherboards for those aren't easy nor cheap to get hold of[02:07:40] <ormandj> swapping drives in a new mbp isn't hard[02:07:46] *** aldeck has quit IRC[02:08:12] *** rdmr has quit IRC[02:08:26] <ddew|bofh> no, but replacing the motherboard is[02:08:41] <ddew|bofh> and without a warranty i'm gonna have to do that myself[02:09:17] <ddew|bofh> i might have applecare but i doubt that it'll cover the machine when warranty doesn't[02:10:12] <zizban> yes indeed[02:11:21] <ddew|bofh> so it's a bit of a dilemma, either i can have the machine stock and unbearably slow or i can upgrade to ssd and void the warranty[02:12:41] <spuopolo> ddew|bofh: is it evident if the drive has been removed?[02:13:03] <ddew|bofh> no idea, i'm guessing it is[02:13:10] <ddew|bofh> probably some stickers and stuff[02:13:18] <spuopolo> you could reinstall factory drive if warranty work is required[02:13:34] *** Matias has joined #haiku[02:13:54] <ddew|bofh> the drive itself probably isn't the problem, it's the opening the machine that messes up the warranty methinks[02:14:41] <spuopolo> oh, not familiar with apple hardware...my pc laptop drive comes out externally with one screw[02:14:42] <zizban> its that slow??[02:14:50] <ddew|bofh> yeah[02:16:46] *** spuopolo has left #haiku[02:16:58] <zizban> interesting[02:17:23] <ddew|bofh> meh, it's par for the course with slaptops[02:18:09] <zizban> unless you pay $$ for those Tadpole sparc laptops with scsi drives :)[02:18:42] <ddew|bofh> problem with slaptops is that if you get a fast drive your batterylife will suffer :)[02:18:56] <zizban> oh ya[02:20:29] *** ari2-free has quit IRC[02:22:13] <miqlas> Ouch! Haiku: http://haikuware.ru/files/misc/navitracker4haiku.jpg[02:23:56] <zizban> wtf?[02:24:22] *** Barrett666 has quit IRC[02:24:41] <ddew|bofh> wow, i'm speechless[02:25:18] *** hdanak has joined #haiku[02:25:47] <miqlas> Samba for Haiku: http://haikuware.ru/software/samba_server[02:26:05] <miqlas> No download yet :([02:26:45] *** AnEvilYak has quit IRC[02:27:10] *** petterhj has quit IRC[02:27:15] <miqlas> http://img169.imageshack.us/img169/1381/clockreplicantsxz8.png[02:27:37] <miqlas> AGG is very powerful.[02:28:37] <ddew|bofh> whoopie, looks like usb is a nogo here :/[02:29:16] <zizban> booting?[02:29:25] <ddew|bofh> yeah[02:29:25] *** thotypous has quit IRC[02:29:35] *** Matias is now known as thotypous[02:30:56] *** AnEvilYak has joined #haiku[02:31:18] <zizban> my mobo doesn't support it either[02:31:27] <zizban> I can try another at work where I am IT geek[02:31:44] <ddew|bofh> well it finds the drive just fine, and boots from it. but it hangs before desktop[02:33:37] <zizban> ah[02:33:41] <mmu_man> miqlas ugly :P[02:34:02] <mmu_man> I think the orange is the worst :D[02:34:19] <mmu_man> though I like the moto "anime must die" ;)[02:34:26] <zizban> me too[02:34:29] <ddew|bofh> hehe[02:34:59] <miqlas> mmu! This is not my desk! Do You think i change the wooman+wall background to this anime shit?[02:35:11] <DHowett> so.. many.. clocks...[02:35:23] <DHowett> it reminds me of that demented painting[02:36:23] <miqlas> But i think this is very correct: http://haikuware.ru/files/misc/navitracker4haiku.jpg[02:36:32] <zizban> it took my breath away but not ina good way :)[02:37:07] <ddew|bofh> ghstly is probably the word you're looking for :)[02:37:50] <zizban> yes :)[02:38:49] <digitalteufel> Do people really associate anime with pokemon?[02:40:10] <miqlas> Yes! I am![02:40:52] <zizban> not me...I think "Voltran"[02:42:13] <ddew|bofh> heh, watching "A bit of fry and laurie" right after watching an episode of "House" messes with my head :P[02:43:00] <zizban> heh[02:46:19] <ddew|bofh> i'm seriously impressed with Laurie's acting skills[02:46:33] <ddew|bofh> and his american accent is flawless[02:46:39] *** Matias has joined #haiku[02:46:50] <zizban> sure is...he's awesome[02:47:42] <ddew|bofh> house was a bit weird at first for me since i'm used to seeing laurie in british comedy[02:47:59] <zizban> I just bet[02:48:13] *** adu has joined #haiku[02:50:20] *** adu has quit IRC[02:50:33] *** adu has joined #haiku[02:53:59] *** AnEvilYak has quit IRC[02:54:10] <digitalteufel> Why does DriveSetup automatically create a home directory on all partitions initialized with BeFS?[02:54:55] <digitalteufel> The tracker won't let me remove it either.[02:57:33] <digitalteufel> I removed it with the Terminal but it came back :([02:59:12] <zizban> hard coded...sweet :)[02:59:45] <DHowett> digitalteufel: It's related to merging desktops of non-boot volumes[02:59:50] <DHowett> IIRC[03:00:55] *** _Lucretia_ has quit IRC[03:00:58] <ddew|bofh> i consider it a Good Thing(TM)[03:01:41] *** _Lucretia_ has joined #haiku[03:01:55] <ddew|bofh> back in the beos days i had separate drives for separate tasks and having different desktop icons for apps was great[03:02:12] <ddew|bofh> like one for video, one for audio and one for codebashing[03:02:14] <digitalteufel> But if it doesn't have a home directory it doesn't require merging.[03:03:29] <zizban> night[03:03:31] *** zizban has quit IRC[03:03:55] *** thotypous has quit IRC[03:04:41] *** thebolt has joined #haiku[03:15:04] <mmu_man> digitalteufel it's Tracker that does it[03:15:09] <mmu_man> so it won't let you remove it[03:17:03] *** criso has joined #haiku[03:19:33] *** paul0 has quit IRC[03:20:47] *** thebolt is now known as thebolt|away[03:23:35] *** Matias has quit IRC[03:26:03] <umccullough> mmu_man, feel like committing a patch for me? :)[03:26:10] <umccullough> bebook optional package ready to go now[03:28:57] *** umccullough_x has joined #haiku[03:29:52] <umccullough_x> mmu_man, http://pastebin.com/d77f8adb5[03:31:53] <mmu_man> great[03:32:47] <umccullough> i suppose i could have added it to the "alpha" buildprofile as well, but i didn't think about it :)[03:32:59] <umccullough> anyhow, bbiab[03:33:40] <AlexForster> http://kingofgng.com/media/20080919_google_vs_microsoft.jpg[03:35:03] <umccullough> yeah, i immediately noticed the resemblance of the chrome logo to windows colors ;)[03:35:15] <umccullough> i'm sure it was no mistake[03:35:28] <mmu_man> well, primary colors + 1 secondary color...[03:35:48] <mmu_man> Google always used those as well[03:36:06] <umccullough> true[03:37:24] <DHowett> hehe nice :P[03:37:41] <DHowett> I never noticed the similarity...[03:37:42] <DHowett> :P[03:43:32] <CIA-60> mmu_man * r28353 /haiku/trunk/build/jam/OptionalPackages:[03:43:32] <CIA-60> Add the BeBook as optional package, patch from Urias McCullough.[03:43:32] <CIA-60> I added it as dependancy for BeHappy.[03:44:01] <mmu_man> dependency ?[03:44:03] <mmu_man> oh well[03:44:06] <mmu_man> 4am[04:01:28] <umccullough> thx :)[04:03:27] *** criso has quit IRC[04:08:20] *** umccullough_x has quit IRC[04:20:03] <AlienSoldier> i found why process controller was not showing up on boot on my haiku test pc. That bootscript sleep 7 was too low (as i use a quite slow HD). sleep 37 work so far. Kinda hackish way to wait for deskbar readyness.[04:22:23] <umccullough> sounds like it :P[04:26:34] <AlienSoldier> seem there is no more userbootscript?[04:27:07] <umccullough> i think if you create one it will be run[04:27:22] <AlienSoldier> yes[04:27:22] <umccullough> i seem to recall seeing some logic that checked for the existence of it and ran it if it was there[04:27:56] <AlienSoldier> some app installer will write to it[04:29:18] <mmu_man> ok, must be BShelf::ResolveSpecifier that's broken[04:29:46] <mmu_man> AlienSoldier there should be a thread you can wait on instead[04:29:59] <mmu_man> waitfor Twitcher[04:30:01] <mmu_man> maybe ?[04:30:49] <AlienSoldier> no idea just quiickly looked into the bootsript and decided to try if it was my problem[04:31:24] <AlienSoldier> currently wondering if my lack of sound until i type osstest is not also related to something done too soon because my hd is slow[04:31:48] <mmu_man> no, happens for BGA and me as well[04:32:00] <mmu_man> though it doesn't happen in beos[04:33:20] <AlexForster> do these problems all stem from a multithreaded init process?[04:33:40] <AlienSoldier> humm, this time sound work, seem it just need time to be alone, then it start[04:35:03] *** ormandj has left #haiku[04:36:16] <AlienSoldier> what is the final name of "networking"? i still see net_server in the bootscript, yet i remember it to be more like BONE (aka kernel located)[04:37:28] *** DHowett1 has joined #haiku[04:37:29] * AlienSoldier would like a google chrome comic equivalent to haiku inner working :)[04:37:51] *** DHowett has quit IRC[04:38:10] <umccullough> AlienSoldier, net_server is just a userland "helper" for the netstack[04:38:40] <umccullough> it does a few menial tasks like handling the dhcp client requests, configuring the devices, etc.[04:39:34] *** DHowett1 has left #haiku[04:39:57] *** AlienSoldier has quit IRC[04:40:16] *** AlienSoldier has joined #haiku[04:40:27] <AlienSoldier> crap R% did kdl :P[04:40:31] <AlienSoldier> *R5[04:42:09] <AlienSoldier> it's a server... t's not... it's Pat! :P[04:43:43] *** senry-user has joined #Haiku[04:44:11] *** senry-user has quit IRC[04:45:30] <AlienSoldier> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/It%27s_Pat[05:00:30] <digitalteufel> Hm, I can consistently crash VirtualBox by running a configure script in Haiku...[05:00:59] <umccullough> crash virtualbox itself?[05:01:01] <umccullough> yikes[05:01:51] <umccullough> i bet the virtualbox guys would be interested to see how that happens ;)[05:03:42] <digitalteufel> I'm one version behind so maybe it's fixed.[05:07:13] <digitalteufel> This revision of Haiku is causing critical errors in Virtual Box for some reason.[05:10:25] <ddew|bofh> using vt-x?[05:11:04] <digitalteufel> The AMD one (whatever it's called)[05:11:22] <ddew|bofh> close enough :)[05:12:29] <ddew|bofh> is it still experimental?[05:12:38] <ddew|bofh> the amd-v thingie in vbox?[05:14:15] <digitalteufel> It doesn't say anything about it being experimental.[05:15:44] <ddew|bofh> haven't used vbox in ages, last time i tried it amd-v was experimental :)[05:15:50] *** Sikosis has joined #haiku[05:15:50] *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Sikosis[05:16:43] <digitalteufel> Damn it happens with the new version as well :([05:18:29] <digitalteufel> Looks like the problem is amd-v[05:18:36] <digitalteufel> Gah[05:18:50] <digitalteufel> Nevermind, it crashed with amd-v disabled as well.[05:19:09] <ddew|bofh> vbox refuses to boot haiku without hw acceleration iirc[05:19:49] <digitalteufel> ddew|bofh, I've been using VirtualBox for some time now and this has never happened before.[05:20:26] <digitalteufel> Only after I started using this haiku-pre-alpha image from haiku-files.[05:21:40] <mmu_man> I should be sleeping for 6h already[05:21:41] <mmu_man> zzz[05:21:51] *** mmu_man has quit IRC[05:22:28] <digitalteufel> brb[05:22:33] *** digitalteufel has quit IRC[05:22:45] *** DHowett has joined #haiku[05:23:23] <DHowett> er.. I'm being told that HAIKU_GCC_RAW_VERSION isn't being set in my gcc2 build when it most definitely is...[05:27:40] *** digitalteufel has joined #haiku[05:37:37] *** DHowett has quit IRC[05:39:38] *** Koki_java has joined #haiku[05:39:48] *** redb1ue has quit IRC[05:39:58] <Koki_java> hello haiku folks[05:41:26] <ddew|bofh> lo[05:41:37] <AlienSoldier> hello kooki monster[05:42:05] <Koki_java> I get a new nickname? :P[05:43:11] <Koki_java> what's new AlienSoldier?[05:43:45] <AlienSoldier> nothing really, closed my summer house today[05:43:55] *** DHowett[haiku] has joined #haiku[05:44:03] <DHowett[haiku]> Whee! Haiku on my main laptop![05:44:30] <DHowett[haiku]> No firefox though, since i had to do a gcc4-only build since I don't want to rebuild the compiler for my gcc2 build just because jam claims a variable that is definitely set is not set at all.[05:44:54] <AlienSoldier> DHowett[haiku] stop playing around, you have that AA1 perfect port to finish :P[05:44:59] <DHowett[haiku]> hehe[05:45:39] <DHowett[haiku]> Once a native non-OSS sound driver is done it (the One) can be perfect and complete and such ;)[05:46:14] <ddew|bofh> so is people booting recent builds of haiku without issues?[05:46:17] <ddew|bofh> *are[05:46:22] <DHowett[haiku]> Also of note: my fans are not raging, which means the speed stepping of my amd processor appears to be either working because of the BIOS or working becaue of haiku[05:46:25] <DHowett[haiku]> appears so here :)[05:46:40] <ddew|bofh> gah, my toolchain or something must be farked then :([05:47:02] <DHowett[haiku]> o_O[05:47:28] <ddew|bofh> my boot hangs right before the desktop[05:47:45] <DHowett[haiku]> Does anybody need a 512MB stick of RAM specifically known to work in an Aspire One? :P[05:47:46] <DHowett[haiku]> ahh[05:49:09] <DHowett[haiku]> Errrmmm[05:49:34] <DHowett[haiku]> Subpixel antia... blah blah not available in this build.. to enable this you must build haiku yourself[05:49:41] <DHowett[haiku]> time to go enable those things in the libfreetype config headers.. :P[05:49:45] *** DHowett[haiku] has quit IRC[05:49:59] <AlienSoldier> still not got my AA1 yet, decided to wait the next gen of them[05:50:37] <AlienSoldier> or perhaps get the current gen of it but put a intel x25 in it[05:50:49] <ddew|bofh> my aa1 is my second favourite machine[05:50:53] <ddew|bofh> love it to bits[05:54:12] *** DHowett has joined #haiku[06:05:28] <ddew|bofh> heh, i think i need to invent a new word. skillful just doesn't cut it when it comes to playing an insane guitarsolo while doing the robot[06:06:21] <DHowett> hehe[06:07:28] <ddew|bofh> buckethead is very odd. he's probably the best guitarist on the planet but he's also very disturbing :)[06:07:46] <DHowett> Disturbing indeed[06:07:57] *** Koki_java has quit IRC[06:08:49] <ddew|bofh> can't knock his skills though, the guy is an amazing guitarist.[06:16:26] <umccullough> don't suppose there's a youtube clip of that?[06:17:16] <umccullough> DHowett, there's a gcc4 version of firefox somewhere ;)[06:17:20] <umccullough> just for haiku[06:17:55] <DHowett> I know.. never got around to saving the link from the ml :)[06:17:56] <DHowett> hehe[06:18:54] <umccullough> let me find it[06:21:35] <ddew|bofh> here's buckethead+nunchucks+the robot+wicked guitar solo[06:21:36] <ddew|bofh> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUvW9RnL65s&feature=related[06:21:58] *** thebolt|away is now known as thebolt[06:27:32] <AlienSoldier> were is cyan when you want him to fix tubepositive :P well, i still have video helper ff extension[06:27:42] *** pyCube has joined #haiku[06:27:59] <AlienSoldier> *video download helper[06:30:06] <AlienSoldier> best scene costume evar![06:30:18] <ddew|bofh> it's brilliant[06:31:04] <ddew|bofh> by being masked he's making people focus on his music and performance instead of what he looks like etc[06:32:19] <pyCube> what do eyes have to do with hearing?[06:32:54] <ddew|bofh> it's a stage persona, people have been doing it for ages[06:33:07] * pyCube tries to figure out why somebody being masked or not woulf change anothers ability to hear[06:33:14] <pyCube> would[06:33:36] *** ari2-free has joined #haiku[06:33:50] <ddew|bofh> i'm sure it's also because he prefers anonymity[06:34:16] <pyCube> who are we talking about?[06:34:22] <ddew|bofh> buckethead[06:34:29] <pyCube> ah[06:34:31] <pyCube> yeah[06:34:36] <AlienSoldier> about the illegetimate son of the colonel sanders[06:34:40] <pyCube> he's playing here soon[06:34:43] <pyCube> i am thinking about going[06:35:23] <ddew|bofh> in my book he's one of, if not the, greatest musicians of our time[06:35:35] <pyCube> re: his 'costume' .. if anything, i would imagine it negatively effects his audience/potential audience more than helps[06:35:58] <pyCube> people that might like him dont take it seriously because of his head... etc[06:36:38] <DHowett> 1) Tackle. 2) Remove masque. 3) ???.[06:36:44] <pyCube> sorta like how zappa lyrics probably eliminate 80% of his potenital admirers due to people lack of ability to not take things seriously[06:36:55] <ddew|bofh> it depends, if he'd be aiming to hit it big in the mainstream it could hold him back but his apparent audience is people interested in the music and in those circumstances appearance is less important[06:37:31] <pyCube> personally, i cant imagine how anythign i see on somebodies head would change my opinion of their musical skill[06:37:37] <pyCube> positively or otherwsie[06:37:39] <pyCube> wise[06:37:54] <ddew|bofh> exactly, the only people who'd be disturbed are people who aren't "into" music[06:38:08] <pyCube> sure[06:38:10] <pyCube> but[06:38:32] <pyCube> some people that would totally dig it may not ever get past their hangups[06:38:49] <pyCube> which is both "f**k them!" and sad[06:38:57] <ddew|bofh> of course, but it's their loss :)[06:40:06] <pyCube> but yeah, i ate lunch the other day at the local place people play music..saw upcoming buckethead and camper van beethoven.. hehe[06:40:26] <ddew|bofh> hehe[06:40:48] <pyCube> take the skinheads bowling...[06:41:50] <ddew|bofh> sometimes i wish i lived in the us, smaller acts and bands never come here[06:41:57] *** RandomInsano has joined #haiku[06:42:37] <pyCube> depends on where you are in the usa[06:42:59] <pyCube> in arizona.. nothing but shit metal and shit hardoce white trash punk ever came to town[06:43:10] <ddew|bofh> naturally, i doubt many bands come to sheepfuck, kentucky[06:43:25] <ddew|bofh> but like live closer to one of the larger cities like NY or LA[06:43:27] <umccullough> pyCube, sounds like everywhere :)[06:43:40] <pyCube> i saw "the real voice of milli vanilli" perform in paderborn[06:43:48] <ddew|bofh> or better yet, SF in the early 80s :P[06:43:51] <pyCube> thats a small act.. hehe[06:43:54] <ddew|bofh> heh[06:44:53] <pyCube> man.. white trash gangsta f**khead...NOTHING is more lame..[06:45:18] <pyCube> they are all slackjawed retards[06:45:28] <pyCube> hehe[06:45:32] * pyCube gets all judgmental like[06:45:43] <ddew|bofh> heh[06:46:08] <ddew|bofh> once you turn all misanthropical the world doesn't suck as much[06:46:31] <pyCube> i dont think the world sucks at all[06:47:24] <ddew|bofh> guess it depends on your definition of "world"[06:47:44] <ddew|bofh> i don't mind the planet so much but i could do without 95% of the population on it[06:48:11] <pyCube> i dot even mind the people[06:48:26] <pyCube> its just all the stupid shit they get duped into thinking is important[06:48:43] <pyCube> its really a small sliver of the population that causes problems[06:49:02] <ddew|bofh> i hate that people are too stupid to think critically and thus get duped into stupid shit[06:49:04] <ddew|bofh> damn hippies[06:49:21] <pyCube> its not just hippies[06:49:22] <pyCube> heh[06:49:37] <pyCube> but yeah.. critial thinking is a lost "art"[06:49:48] <DHowett> *sigh* unfortunately[06:50:08] <ddew|bofh> well, i'm not necessarily referring to traditional hippies. hippies is more of a derogatory term for me[06:50:09] <pyCube> was just talking to my wife about that, and how my kids will be critical thinkers, even if it means being a little cynicism heavy[06:50:36] <DHowett> pyCube: Ask them word problems before they can go out with their friends ;)[06:50:41] <DHowett> I'm only partly serious :([06:50:45] <pyCube> heh[06:51:18] <pyCube> i rarely give them an outright answer.. i tend to ask them questions that guid them to figure out the answers themselves[06:51:21] <pyCube> guide[06:51:26] <DHowett> nice :)[06:52:04] <pyCube> it irritates me to see people coddle to childrens laziness[06:53:36] *** DHowett has quit IRC[06:53:58] *** DHowett has joined #haiku[06:54:52] <pyCube> what weirds me out is hearing other parents talk about how they have to schedule/withhold/etc things like tv, video games, etc.. and force their kids to play outside or read or whatever[06:54:56] <pyCube> WEIRD[06:55:38] <pyCube> healthy children have an array of interests and should be able to sort of naturally and organically self-regulate[06:55:40] <pyCube> heh[06:55:52] <pyCube> and what kid doent like to read?[06:56:36] <ddew|bofh> when i was a kid my parents had to force to go outside occasionally. i'd much preferred to stay inside and kept reading :)[06:56:41] <ddew|bofh> *force me[06:57:06] <pyCube> i have never had to take tv or games away form my kids.. i have, however, punished my oldest by not letting her read at recess[06:57:24] <DHowett> wow[06:58:20] <pyCube> it was a response to her not getting other work done becasue she couldnt get he rnose out of a book[06:58:21] <pyCube> hehe[06:58:33] <ddew|bofh> i'm in the "let kids be kids" camp[06:58:42] <pyCube> totally[06:58:58] <ddew|bofh> there's plenty of time to worry about shit when they grow up, let them have their fun[06:59:18] <pyCube> yep[07:00:10] *** redblue has joined #haiku[07:00:45] <pyCube> its just so not an issue here.. my kids have complete free access to their computer and tv.. and they use both regularly, but they also draw, write, read, play outside, etc.. all on their own.. left to their own devices, they probably draw and read more than anything else[07:01:11] <ddew|bofh> sort of like how most normal kids are[07:01:32] <pyCube> and i have to assume that their self regulatory nature is a result of letting them be who they are and providing lots of stuff to stimulate them[07:01:37] <pyCube> right[07:02:01] <DHowett> :)[07:02:06] <pyCube> if a kid sits and stares at tv and nothing else, there is something FAR more wrong then them watching too much tv[07:02:10] * JonathanThompson laughs at DHowett[07:02:29] * DHowett is.. laughed at? :P[07:02:37] <JonathanThompson> Of course![07:02:43] <DHowett> :P[07:04:17] *** RandomInsano has quit IRC[07:05:09] <pyCube> anyway, i gues i am just happy that i have good kids.. from the way i hear people talking about parenthood at work it sounds liek complete hell[07:05:22] <pyCube> to not have ood kids[07:05:25] <pyCube> good[07:05:25] <pyCube> heh[07:05:31] <pyCube> odd kids are fine[07:06:08] <ddew|bofh> i'm too busy fucking other peoples kids up to get any of my own :P[07:06:37] <JonathanThompson> Pretty soon some of that screwing around will result in some kids :P[07:07:12] <ddew|bofh> yeah, i've dogded that bullet once already. not gonna happen again :)[07:07:37] <JonathanThompson> Did you get yourself neutered yet??? :D[07:07:43] <ddew|bofh> hehe[07:07:57] <ddew|bofh> nah, i kinda like my testosterone :)[07:08:06] <pyCube> heh.. i wonder if any desperate guy has ever shown up at a vet[07:08:19] <JonathanThompson> Well, there's the not-quite-neutered neutering, where it only stops things from coming out ;)[07:08:27] <pyCube> "come on.. its not THAT different.."[07:08:52] <ddew|bofh> yeah, i'm not letting anyone _near_ my junk with anything sharp[07:09:25] * JonathanThompson gets out the big clamps[07:10:08] <pyCube> i have always thought neutering/spaying animals was kinda rude[07:10:20] <pyCube> yet see the practical reasoning behind it[07:10:24] <JonathanThompson> There's more than one way to keep things from causing long-term issues for kidding around :P[07:10:32] <ddew|bofh> keeping animals as fast overall is rude[07:10:40] <ddew|bofh> only reason to keep animals is for food[07:10:50] <ddew|bofh> *as pets[07:11:31] * JonathanThompson notes ddew|bofh is doing weird typing associations[07:11:49] <pyCube> seems to me that you should at least let the pet mature[07:11:49] <DHowett> o_o[07:11:58] <pyCube> before you go whacking their hormones etc[07:12:07] <JonathanThompson> Yeah, let them feel all the feelings, THEN rip away their gonads :D[07:12:12] <pyCube> no[07:12:18] <pyCube> let them develop fully[07:12:23] <JonathanThompson> Well, that's what happens.[07:12:48] <JonathanThompson> I don't know for certain with dogs, but with cats, they can have kittens long before physical maturity.[07:13:40] <pyCube> an adult that never had 'nads is different than one that did[07:14:56] <pyCube> ddew|bofh: my cats are only "pets" in that they have a regular place to eat and sleep[07:15:26] <pyCube> they come around to play on occasion as well[07:16:09] <ddew|bofh> to each his own, i love animals but i can't imagine keeping them as pets[07:16:28] <pyCube> in general, i agree[07:16:53] <ddew|bofh> i guess i'm too much of a fan of independence for that[07:17:06] <pyCube> but there are definitely species that have been comingling with humans for a long time[07:17:21] <pyCube> independence, absolutely[07:17:27] <AlexForster> i can't imagine my cat would have been happier in the woods his entire life, nor would he have lived this long, especially in an urban area[07:17:46] <AlexForster> he can always leave - he chooses to come back[07:17:52] <pyCube> i wont let my kids have a dog until we have a place where the dog can be free (for the most part, hehe)[07:18:12] <pyCube> and the idea of a "house cat" is crazy, imo[07:18:38] * JonathanThompson considers what it'd be like if a "house cat" were 100 times the mass they are these days[07:18:49] <pyCube> but taking care of a cat so that my kids can have a little friend, i dont see the problem[07:19:00] <AlexForster> eh, i don't think they spend any time considering their quality of life, period[07:19:27] <pyCube> have you ever been around an abused animal?[07:19:41] <pyCube> they absolutely are aware of and consider their quality of life[07:20:02] <pyCube> clearly not in humans terms, but they do[07:20:51] <AlexForster> abused so that it makes them hate humans, or so that they're incredibly affectionate, because i've seen both[07:21:11] <pyCube> same with humans[07:22:18] <AlexForster> well by considering quality of life i mean rueing what they otherwise could be doing[07:22:52] <pyCube> how do you go about determining what they are thinking about?[07:23:01] <JonathanThompson> You ask them![07:23:09] <AlexForster> i don't think cats at least are capable of regret, so i don't take much issue with havinga house cat[07:23:26] <AlexForster> i would imagine you can determine what they're *not* thinking about[07:23:47] <AlexForster> i would say my cat definitely does not seem to care that it's been inside its entire life[07:23:48] <pyCube> cat is not human.. thats pretty intense[07:24:22] <umccullough> wut?![07:24:25] <JonathanThompson> My observation is once a cat (while still a kitten) has experienced the great outdoors, most of the time, you can't keep them inside after that.[07:24:35] <JonathanThompson> It seems like it's a gateway drug to go outside :P[07:24:49] <pyCube> isnt there some old greek story about a dude in a cave watching shadows?[07:24:58] <AlexForster> exactly![07:25:03] <AlexForster> it doesn't miss what it's never experienced[07:25:27] <AlexForster> thus, my house cat does not regret its indoor life[07:25:40] <JonathanThompson> I've seen indoors cats watch birds outdoors, though, and they appear to still have urges to get them.[07:25:42] <AlexForster> (i have two, one we let out and one we don't)[07:25:52] <pyCube> thus a slave does not regret not being free[07:26:01] <JonathanThompson> Sometimes one feels like a nut, sometimes one doesn't ? :)[07:26:02] <DHowett> pyCube: the .. bah. the great allegory or somesuch[07:26:10] <AlexForster> one that's never been free? maybe not.[07:26:25] <DHowett> The Allegory of the Cave[07:27:09] <pyCube> so then why ever leave your room? all you are doing is taunting yourself with the knowledge of that there is more than your room[07:27:39] <pyCube> DHowett: right.. its just more fun to talk about all describey[07:27:42] <pyCube> hehe[07:27:51] <DHowett> hehe, of course ;)[07:28:08] <ddew|bofh> what's wrong with staying indoors all the time? :P[07:28:29] <AlexForster> maybe we have different definitions of housecat: i'm thinking indoor cat, one that's never been outside, versus an outside cat which does in fact yearn to go outside[07:28:51] <AlexForster> the indoor cat never wants outside because it doesn't know outside, so i don't feel bad about keeping it inside[07:29:23] <pyCube> i dunno if i am 'cool' with that justification[07:29:47] <pyCube> i understand it[07:30:01] <AlexForster> it doesn't regret its life, so why should i?[07:30:27] <ddew|bofh> keeping pets for ones own amusement seems kinda slefish to me[07:30:31] <ddew|bofh> *selfish[07:30:46] * JonathanThompson shoots AlexForster, expecting that since he doesn't really know him, he won't really regret it :D[07:30:47] <ddew|bofh> i can't imagine doing it to another human, so why do it to an animal?[07:30:58] <pyCube> ddew|bofh: we rescued our cats.. cats that would have otherwise been strays[07:31:11] <pyCube> its not so much about amusement as it is adoption[07:31:17] <JonathanThompson> How do you know the cats wouldn't have preferred to be strays?[07:31:32] <AlexForster> i also couldn't imagine enacting and promoting a coordinated strategy for population control, but we all fix our pets[07:31:34] <pyCube> i chose to be responsible for keeping it fed and relatively safe[07:31:49] <pyCube> JonathanThompson: they still are to a large degree[07:32:08] <pyCube> like i said, i simply offer them food and a place to sleep[07:32:20] * JonathanThompson wonders if there's the same thing with the 6 degrees of separation for cats[07:32:27] <pyCube> and they keep coming back, i so assume they dig it[07:32:46] <AlexForster> not with some being inside cats, probably not[07:32:48] <JonathanThompson> If you know one cat, they'll know a cat that knows a cat... etc. until you can network with any old cat.[07:33:02] <JonathanThompson> It's a catwork![07:33:09] <pyCube> i would like to have a dog friend, but as i said, i wont do it unless i can offer basically the same freedom to the dog[07:33:20] <JonathanThompson> It just keeps purring along, passing information back and forth in the daily mews.[07:33:24] <AlexForster> yeah, the inside cats break that network, and there are a ton of them, enough so that you probably couldn't find an overall trend as with 6 degrees[07:33:26] <pyCube> enough space to and seclusion to let them roam[07:33:34] <AlexForster> good god i will find any reason not to write this paper[07:33:47] * JonathanThompson shoots AlexForster's computer[07:34:00] <JonathanThompson> Guess you'll have to do it old school :P[07:34:18] <JonathanThompson> (Unless you're like me and have 4 other computers available to do it on)[07:34:19] <AlexForster> i hate paper with a passion; i can't backspace[07:34:25] <DHowett> "Some guy on IRC shot my computer. I couldn't do my paper."[07:34:36] <DHowett> AlexForster: I can't count the times i've wanted to grep a paper (or even my desk) for something...[07:34:37] <AlexForster> lol[07:34:42] <JonathanThompson> A new creative excuse :D[07:34:54] <ddew|bofh> apartment indexing would be handy :P[07:35:03] <DHowett> ddew|bofh: oh yes. :P[07:35:05] <pyCube> AlexForster: i guess i just dont like the idea of being a dick for no other reason than because i can. Cats and dogs display enough to convince me that there is some form of self awareness going on, and I'd rather err on the side of treating them as decently as i can[07:35:12] <JonathanThompson> SpotLight for the bachelor geek's apartment ;)[07:35:20] <DHowett> Just wait until everything has RFID ><[07:35:26] <ddew|bofh> stuff with a last access date less than 3 months is easy to find but older than that is unpossible[07:35:31] <DHowett> JonathanThompson: I was thinking more Beagle ;)[07:35:32] <DHowett> haha[07:36:23] * JonathanThompson contemplates tomorrow's dinner which should include chicken he bought Saturday[07:36:50] <JonathanThompson> I wonder if umccullough ever eats chicken bits from his website, "binarychicken"[07:37:34] <DHowett> mmm ;)[07:37:40] * JonathanThompson wonders what a 64-bit chicken would look like[07:37:45] <AlexForster> eh, i don't think you can hold the same set of basic rights and freedoms to something so inferior[07:37:56] <JonathanThompson> And then there's those VLIW chickens.[07:38:02] <ddew|bofh> freedom is an illusion[07:38:21] <pyCube> i suppose i dont see it as inferior.. just different[07:38:25] * JonathanThompson awaits the arrival of a superior alien intelligence to sweep us up onto their farms[07:38:42] <ddew|bofh> only evolution will prove any inferiority :)[07:38:43] <AlexForster> freedom is a concept, allusion connotates that it cannot exist[07:38:46] <AlexForster> *illusion[07:39:48] <pyCube> you can always change your mind[07:39:49] <AlexForster> and *does not - illusion just seems like such a mischaracterization, like when people say time is an illusion, it's true but such a pointless statement[07:39:59] <pyCube> thats freedom[07:40:08] <pyCube> in a sense :-p[07:40:55] <ddew|bofh> freedom is a too abstract concept to have any real influence[07:41:02] <ddew|bofh> thus it is an illusion[07:41:09] <pyCube> illusion doesnt influence?[07:41:30] <ddew|bofh> in a sense, no[07:41:40] <AlexForster> i guess i could agree with that, its definition is very hard to pinpoint[07:42:00] <pyCube> it only makes sense in context[07:42:11] <pyCube> if i am in a cage, i am not free[07:42:26] <AlexForster> yeah, out of context "freedom is an illusion" sounds like something a crazy homeless person would say[07:42:26] <pyCube> if i can sit anywhere (even a cage) and speak my mind, i am free[07:42:40] <ddew|bofh> if someone tells me i have freedom if i do certain things, is that really freedom?[07:42:58] <pyCube> freedom ffrom hearing other people?[07:42:59] <pyCube> hehe[07:43:03] <ddew|bofh> heh[07:43:27] <pyCube> anti freedoms like that are funny[07:43:39] <pyCube> the freedom to not whatever[07:43:41] <ddew|bofh> yeah, people are even making money and tours from it[07:43:59] <AlexForster> i always thought the "freedom from religion" name was clever[07:44:10] <AlexForster> it's a pun and an 'antifreedom'[07:44:23] <pyCube> seems like the freedom to not anything totally implies unfreedoming something else[07:44:31] <JonathanThompson> What happens if you have freedom and antifreedom collide?[07:44:45] <pyCube> haha[07:44:55] <ddew|bofh> quantum physics say energy is released[07:45:15] <pyCube> if you put a capt and a cage in a box, it is BOTH free and not-free[07:45:20] <pyCube> cat[07:46:07] <ddew|bofh> free from what? :)[07:46:08] <AlexForster> well, we're all not "free" if freedom is defined by a physical boundary - can't exactly leave earth[07:46:15] <ddew|bofh> it's freed from facing the outside world[07:46:35] <AlexForster> and wehre's the line between free and not free, in terms of the amount of area we can traverse?[07:46:47] <ddew|bofh> there is none[07:46:52] <JonathanThompson> We're always free to not be free to be free to not be free to be free.[07:46:58] <ddew|bofh> freedom is an abstract concept[07:47:16] <ddew|bofh> applying it to concrete examples is an exercise in futility[07:47:27] <pyCube> is choosing to not be free an act of freedom?[07:47:49] <AlexForster> thus being contained in a box cannot be said to take away somethings freedom[07:48:12] <ddew|bofh> choosing not to be free can be called a freedom[07:48:13] <pyCube> at least certain freedoms[07:48:31] <pyCube> ddew|bofh: until the moment you make the decision[07:48:38] <ddew|bofh> not really[07:48:44] <ddew|bofh> you're free to make that choice[07:48:45] <AlexForster> OMG PARADOXES[07:48:48] <ddew|bofh> freedom of choice[07:49:26] <AlexForster> even the choice to give up your freedom of choice?[07:49:29] <pyCube> seems like the only way to be completely devoid of freedoms is to be a rock[07:49:30] <AlexForster> we actually don't have that freedom[07:49:42] <AlexForster> we can not let ourselves be enslaved[07:50:01] <pyCube> AlexForster: at least knowingly, right? heh[07:50:02] <ddew|bofh> everyone is free, with varying degrees of freedom[07:50:28] <AlexForster> which is why it can only be used in a context where there are several defined alternatives[07:50:31] <ddew|bofh> or rather, varying freedoms[07:50:46] <AlexForster> that is, in a context where defined things make you "free" and "not free"[07:50:57] <ddew|bofh> freedom as a general phrase is just hippiespeak[07:51:25] <pyCube> or patriotic nonsene[07:51:28] <ddew|bofh> using that phrase as something concrete instantly makes you an idiot[07:51:28] <pyCube> nonsense[07:51:53] *** Sikosis has quit IRC[07:52:00] <AlexForster> yeah, semantics, i guess[07:52:02] <ddew|bofh> but i'm impressed by people who can make their living from selling freedom[07:52:24] <pyCube> which is why the bsd/gpl thing is silly.. 2 contexts, one word[07:53:16] <AlexForster> lol, well if we want to go there, i find the gpl incredibly persumptuious[07:53:19] <pyCube> the bsd or gpl, which is more free.. thing[07:53:26] <ddew|bofh> fsf calls their version of open source free but you're forced to do certain things. that doesn't sound very free to me[07:53:41] <pyCube> hehe[07:53:41] <AlexForster> especially in how they consider their model of sofware distribution "free"[07:53:42] <pyCube> sheesh[07:54:06] <AlexForster> one could more aptly call it "socialist," in comparison to the bsd[07:54:24] <ddew|bofh> "you're free to do walk around wherever you want, but you must have these sets of papers and wear this set of clothes"[07:54:31] <pyCube> we all know how ell freemarket capitalism works[07:55:12] <AlexForster> sure, it can't be left unregulated, but the gpl's equvalent of market regulation IS extreme socialism[07:55:25] <AlexForster> where bsd would i guess be extreme capitalism[07:55:28] <ddew|bofh> free market capitalism isn't a half bad system. the problems occur when governments starts interfering things go apeshit[07:55:36] <pyCube> you are free to participate or not[07:56:13] * ddew|bofh has zero multitasking capabilities[07:56:33] *** adu has quit IRC[07:56:52] <ddew|bofh> if i'm reading something my writing skills immediatly drop to preschool levels :)[07:57:29] * JonathanThompson types more for ddew|bofh to read[07:58:01] <ddew|bofh> heh[07:58:25] <ddew|bofh> methinks even keyboards are too inefficient to keep up with my mind[07:58:42] *** thebolt is now known as thebolt|away[07:58:45] <AlexForster> i've never really understood the mindset behind writing gpl code[07:58:59] <pyCube> can tell you mine[07:59:02] <pyCube> i can[07:59:20] <ddew|bofh> the writing of code is understandable, the selling of the license is not[07:59:42] <AlexForster> i've found that, if i write code that i want to be public, it's usually a problem that i solved that i felt shouldn't have to be solved again[08:00:03] <ari2-free> yeah someone will still make all the money from the code you worked on for free. they can do service and you can't[08:00:04] <AlexForster> like, libraries and whatnot[08:00:19] <AlexForster> but to gpl an end-user program just doesn't make sense to me[08:00:48] <AlexForster> to BSD it makes just as little sense[08:01:15] <AlexForster> i guess i'm one who would only open code that programmers would find use for, not end users[08:02:23] <AlexForster> and if i want to open that kind of code, putting the gpl on it would essentially limit its use to only people who wanted to open THEIR entire end-user application[08:02:28] <ari2-free> well Apple has the backend open and closed all the stuff on top[08:02:31] <ddew|bofh> i'm in the "the code is written, do what you please with it" camp[08:03:24] <pyCube> AlexForster: whats wrong with that?[08:03:40] <pyCube> its like a park[08:03:57] <pyCube> or some other shared space where there a some simple rules[08:04:53] <pyCube> i am not judging you for not wanting to play by those rules.. i dont care one way or the other.. i just dont see the problem with gpl.. its a pretty cool idea imo[08:05:21] <AlexForster> i think the farthest i would go would be lgpl[08:05:50] <AlexForster> i could see myself writing some huge framework that i feel should be used by more than just me, but not wanting other people to profit from it[08:05:54] <ddew|bofh> gpl as an idea isn't half bad. but the proponents are very off-putting[08:06:09] <pyCube> not to me[08:07:09] <ari2-free> well what we do find with gpl is that the development is also open so you can see the idea behind the code even if you can't use the actual code itself[08:07:20] <AlexForster> the gpl is a solution for people who want to write a program, give it *and* the source away for free, but not allow anyone else to profit from it[08:07:30] <AlexForster> i jsut can't think of a scenario where i would want to do that[08:07:36] <ddew|bofh> me neither[08:07:49] <pyCube> people profit from gpl code all the time[08:08:03] <AlexForster> with support and blah blah, i know[08:08:11] <ddew|bofh> mostly from services though[08:08:12] <AlexForster> but you could profit much easier by just keeping the code closed[08:08:18] <pyCube> no[08:08:21] <pyCube> not that[08:08:50] <ari2-free> if you are a small business selling "Wonderbrush" you're not going to profit so much[08:09:37] <AlexForster> i agree, things like plan9 and aix and such being open do work well for them, because they deal with people who will be spending a lot of money on support anyway[08:09:46] <ari2-free> it only works for big enterprise apps[08:10:07] <AlexForster> but, openoffice? come on, someone should make money from that[08:10:22] <pyCube> here's the deal.. if you are wanting to get rich selling software you write, gpl probably isnt for you[08:11:07] <ddew|bofh> i'd like to add that your software isn't worse than gpl software because it uses a different license[08:11:29] <pyCube> uh, no shit?[08:11:37] <pyCube> heh[08:11:38] <ddew|bofh> something that's confused many hippies, "my software is gpl, therefor it's better"[08:11:45] <ddew|bofh> *therefore[08:11:59] <ari2-free> and gpl isn't evil either[08:12:11] <ddew|bofh> depends on your definition of evil[08:12:15] <ari2-free> people get too worked up over these things[08:12:29] <AlexForster> no no i don't mean that, i also write code for the "fun" of it, but that kind of code is stuff that i see as more of a utility to programmers than a product, and so i wouldn't care if they used it in a closed application - i wrote it for them to use[08:12:44] <ari2-free> it's not some communist virus[08:12:54] <AlexForster> i wouldn't ever write an entire product just for the fun of it, because it would be something i could profit from[08:13:02] <pyCube> i can entertain the idea of both owning a piece of land AND enjoying a public park.. simultaneously even![08:13:03] <ddew|bofh> well gpl _is_ viral[08:13:37] <umccullough> JonathanThompson, clearly the domain name is unique enough that it's unforgettable ;)[08:13:47] <pyCube> a polite virus.. given that you have to invite it in[08:13:59] * JonathanThompson goes to quickly register "hexadecimalchicken"[08:14:01] <ddew|bofh> nevertheless, it's viral :)[08:14:09] <umccullough> octalchicken![08:14:20] <JonathanThompson> trinarychicken!!![08:14:25] <umccullough> nasty![08:14:25] <ari2-free> yes but just because linux is gpl doesn't mean that everything on top must be[08:14:34] <umccullough> quantumchicken[08:14:43] <ddew|bofh> ari2-free: so?[08:15:16] <pyCube> arent a lot of people making a lot of money using gpl code?[08:15:38] <umccullough> using it, yes ;)[08:15:47] <umccullough> writing it...maybe not so much[08:15:55] <ari2-free> if it was really devious then you couldn't run any closed source software on linux[08:16:04] <ddew|bofh> didn't you hear? canonical is about to break even :P[08:16:19] <umccullough> you don't have to be a software company to use gpl code[08:16:24] <AlexForster> other than linux and its immediate circle of friends, probably not so much actually[08:16:37] <AlexForster> mit'd things like mpeg decoders and stuff would probably be making much more money[08:17:01] <umccullough> AlexForster, how?[08:17:19] <pyCube> i guess i dont see money as such an important benchmark[08:17:30] <umccullough> unless you're referring to the money being made on the backs of the original authors[08:17:47] <pyCube> how do you mean?[08:17:58] <ddew|bofh> my gripe with gpl is that it requires that not only do you publish code but it also extends into how you can run it, what you can run it on and how you build it[08:17:59] <pyCube> like modding gpl code then selling it?[08:18:06] <AlexForster> well, other than linux, i can't think of any gpl software making any money through *any* avenue, and commercial products can only use bsd/mit closeable code in their products[08:18:40] <umccullough> i don't understand if we're talking about money being made by those using the GPL software, or money being made by the authors of the software[08:18:47] <umccullough> they're completely different discussions[08:19:03] <AlexForster> both - linux the exception, gpl code doesn't make anyone much money in any way[08:19:06] <pyCube> um, so if somebody uses innkscape and gimp to make business cards and flyers as a business, he's in the wrong?[08:19:16] <AlexForster> well, linux/apache/sql servers/etc[08:19:20] <DHowett> I've never known of any building or running limitations in the GPL.[08:19:25] <umccullough> AlexForster, there are countless business out there using gpl software and making money[08:19:44] <ddew|bofh> DHowett: familiar with tivoization?[08:19:48] <ari2-free> not companies that develop gpl software[08:19:55] <DHowett> ddew|bofh: Vaguely.[08:19:57] <umccullough> perhaps the definition of "use" is what's in question here[08:20:14] <DHowett> ddew|bofh: ah, wikipedia to the rescue. I see[08:20:15] <pyCube> umccullough: i am talking about using gpl sw to make stuff[08:20:18] <AlexForster> sure, but by "gpl software," you mean the gnu family, not gimp or inkscape or blender or any of those, they're all too small[08:20:21] <umccullough> pyCube, yeah, same here[08:20:30] <ari2-free> of course companies make money by using stuff for free they'd otherwise have to pay for[08:20:49] <ddew|bofh> DHowett: essentially gplv3 dictates that not only do you have to provide source but also ensure that it can be rebuilt and run on the original hardware it was implemented on[08:20:57] <umccullough> ari2-free, not only that, but they can modify it for their own internal use without being required to redistribute it[08:21:05] <DHowett> ddew|bofh: there doesn't seem to be a downside to that.[08:21:14] <pyCube> umccullough: right[08:21:15] <DHowett> ddew|bofh: apart from the gplv3 aspect of it :P[08:21:22] <ari2-free> gpl helps a lot of other people make $. just not always the original developers hehe[08:21:30] <umccullough> this is true[08:21:40] <AlexForster> correction: the gnu family helps lots of people make money[08:21:48] <pyCube> right.. but thats kinda what peple decide when they choose gpl[08:21:55] <umccullough> exactly[08:21:57] <AlexForster> i can't think of other software of significant maturity that is making serious money[08:22:01] <pyCube> i think its great![08:22:22] <umccullough> in fact, if they chose any more liberaly license, it's likely to make them even less money[08:22:22] <AlexForster> their developers have all realized they can make money from their software and chose to close it[08:22:54] <umccullough> AlexForster, "serious money" is a pretty vague statement i'd say[08:22:55] <ari2-free> who would've guessed a $25 billion ecosystem from a bunch of hippies working in the basement[08:23:28] <umccullough> there's plenty of niche GPL software you're simply not exposed to[08:23:34] <AlexForster> i think you probably hit the line at "konfabulator" kind of money[08:23:34] <umccullough> like SugarCRM for example[08:23:40] <pyCube> AlexForster: the digital film industry is full of all sort of sw, libs, etc that are gpl.. and helping to make a lot of money[08:24:14] <ddew|bofh> DHowett: to me downside is that it's a software license that exntends to hardware and limiting it's use[08:24:26] <DHowett> ddew|bofh: point :)[08:24:35] <ddew|bofh> :)[08:25:40] <AlexForster> but are these guys anywhere near as profitable as the invision guys? i would doubt it[08:25:56] <pyCube> i think most people read the gpl as "RMS will come live in your house"..hence the nutso reaction[08:26:33] <DHowett> pyCube: But.. but I made up the guest room and everyhing![08:26:34] <AlexForster> invision as in invision power board/services, the guys who manage to sell their php forum and content management software[08:26:36] <pyCube> is really like being anti-gay marriage[08:26:55] <ari2-free> RMS can say what he wants but who cares[08:27:02] <ari2-free> well actually[08:27:04] <ddew|bofh> oh ghod, don't get me started on gay marriage :)[08:27:10] <pyCube> like, if you just ignored it, you'd never even have to know.. heh[08:27:36] <ari2-free> gpl3 had concerns[08:27:38] <pyCube> whenever somebody starts in about how much they are against it, my question is, "wow.. who is trying to gay-marry you?"[08:28:00] <ddew|bofh> i'd have a problem with gay marriage if people were constantly bombarding me with "gay marriage is better, straight marriage is for losers and freedomhaters"[08:28:29] <pyCube> ddew|bofh: but thats not even an issue of gay marriage as much as it is an issue of stupid a-holes[08:28:53] <ddew|bofh> well duh![08:28:55] <pyCube> heh[08:29:12] <ddew|bofh> people can do whatever the fuck they want as long as it doesn't harm me or anyone i care about[08:29:14] <AlexForster> i don't know anything about the subject, but isn't the concept of "marriage" religious, anyway? why not just get rid of the legal concept of a two-person partnership and allow anyone to partner with whomever they want? let whomever wants to call themselves married do it[08:29:31] <ari2-free> so a brother and sister could marry?[08:29:31] <AlexForster> though, that would allow polygamy[08:29:39] <ari2-free> then they'd have kids[08:29:46] <DHowett> Er, why not the other way around? Get rid of the religious part of it. Separate church and state.[08:29:49] <ari2-free> and that would not be good[08:29:50] <ddew|bofh> the problem with marriage is that it's not just a partnership, they have advantages non-married people don't have[08:30:02] <pyCube> heres a question, does the incest taboo apply to gay siblings?[08:30:08] <DHowett> ddew|bofh: aka tax breaks? :P[08:30:17] <ddew|bofh> tax breaks, inheritance issues etc[08:30:20] <DHowett> *nods*[08:30:21] <AlexForster> you may not call it marriage, you may just find a person that you want to be able to file taxes with and decide whether you should be kept alive artificially[08:30:51] <umccullough> pyCube, my favorite idea was that if someone cloned themselves, they could theoretically f' themselves...but would that be homosexual?[08:31:03] <AlexForster> a status of "married" should be left completely to respective churches[08:31:27] <pyCube> in my mind, marriage is the moment you and whoever decide to get married.. thats when the decision happens. i kind find the idea of engagement sorta weird[08:32:14] <ddew|bofh> i can understand religious people not wanting homosexual marriages, afterall allowing your daughters to be raped ranks higher in the bible. but atleast give equal status to partnerships[08:32:20] <pyCube> "i *think* i love you enough to marry you.. just gimme a couple months to be sure.."[08:32:43] <AlexForster> well there has to be a period of time between where you both decide you're going to get married and the ceremony, and they called that "engaged to be married"[08:32:51] <ari2-free> when my sister married, the real ceremony was religious...no civil at all. that came later as a technicality to get over with[08:32:56] <AlexForster> the idea of year or even multi month long engagements does seem stupid to me, though[08:33:06] <pyCube> AlexForster: no there doesnt[08:33:20] <AlexForster> if you want to gather your family together, plan things, etc, there does[08:33:35] <pyCube> thats not a marriage, thats a party[08:33:44] <umccullough> i think what pyCube is saying is that marriage doesn't require a ceremony ;)[08:33:56] <umccullough> the minute you say you're gonna get married, you should be.[08:34:04] <AlexForster> it's a "ceremony" - a formal event marking the transition from one social status to another[08:34:06] <pyCube> right.. marriage, in my mind, is the decision itself[08:34:11] <pyCube> all the rest is fluff[08:34:21] <umccullough> religious tradition and all[08:34:30] <umccullough> or legal requirement now :P[08:34:53] <pyCube> makes dealing with the kid related paper work easier, and less[08:35:16] <umccullough> not to mention dealing with beneficiary situations[08:35:32] <AlexForster> but then if marriage can be that informal, we could marry and divorce in 10 seconds right now over irc, and it would completely dilute the meaning behind marriage[08:35:34] <ari2-free> my concern is if children are going to be raised without a mother and a father. so I'm more against gay adoption than gay marriage. I don't see the civil aspect as sacred, just a legal technicality[08:35:51] <AlexForster> the point of the ceremony and the legal status is to mark its importance in the peoples lives[08:36:16] <umccullough> eh...for some it's just a hassle they have to go through to make it official ;)[08:36:17] <ari2-free> now if religious people were forced to offer gay marriage that would be a big problem[08:36:19] <AlexForster> i am too[08:36:19] <ddew|bofh> having a stable household is far more important than any amount of father or mother figures[08:36:43] <AlexForster> i feel it's irresponsible to foster a lifestyle that is so fringe and controversial[08:36:50] <pyCube> AlexForster: if you need ceremonial luff in order to not make your relationship fleeting and trivial, you probably shouldnt be married[08:36:53] <pyCube> fluff[08:36:59] <ddew|bofh> kids get way more fucked up from abusive parents than gay parents[08:37:50] <AlexForster> but it still fucks them up[08:37:59] <ddew|bofh> not really[08:38:00] <umccullough> common-law-marriage always baffled me, personally[08:38:09] <ari2-free> it's not natural[08:38:37] <ddew|bofh> ari2-free: and you call marriage natural? have you taken a look at nature recently?[08:38:59] <pyCube> the only thing not natural is taking the phrase "not natural" liteally[08:39:02] <pyCube> literally[08:39:30] <pyCube> heh[08:39:33] <ari2-free> I mean to have a kid raised by 2 men or 2 women[08:39:47] *** [r4] has joined #Haiku[08:39:50] <ddew|bofh> what's so unnatural about that?[08:39:55] <DHowett> Yeah, really[08:40:01] <AlexForster> if gay were as socially accepted as straight is, i would have no problem with gay couples raising children, but gay men are going to raise a gay son may otherwise not have been gay, and i don't feel like it's fair that that kid was forced into a lifestyle so violently hated by so many[08:40:03] <pyCube> not historically commonplace, perhaps..[08:40:07] <ddew|bofh> you think kids in the distant past were raised by a mom and a dad?[08:40:17] <AlexForster> *that[08:40:50] <pyCube> kids being raised by a clutch of women folk was pretty common iirc[08:41:19] <ddew|bofh> i can agree that having gay parents can be cause of unecessary friction and isn't in a kids best interest. but i'll be damned if someone thinks that gay parents can't raise kids[08:41:22] <ari2-free> yeah and they have issues[08:41:31] <AlexForster> no, but kids in the past didn't have to live in 2008 united states where, depending on "who" you are, half the country would drag you from a car given the chance[08:41:33] <ari2-free> no male figure in their life[08:41:35] <DHowett> AlexForster: Homosexuality doesn't breed homosexuality. It's not inherited (obviously not genetically, btu i'm talking about through the teaching of values.) It's perfectly normal for a child of a gay couple to grow up straight, just like it's a perfectly normal occurrence for a child of a straight couple to be gay.[08:42:09] <pyCube> AlexForster: so just cater to the biggest jerks?[08:43:01] <AlexForster> yes! conformity is happiness[08:43:18] <AlexForster> or, conformity is at least the easiest path to happiness[08:44:03] <AlexForster> and, i don't really know if my basic assumption that gay couples raise gay children is true, so i will concede that[08:44:04] <ari2-free> there's more to a man and a woman than their genitalia. they have completely different personality traits and kids need a balance[08:44:04] <pyCube> sure[08:44:17] <ddew|bofh> in a society where the only two people you came in contact with were your parents ari2-free's argument would hold water. luckily we don't live like that[08:44:22] <DHowett> I'm sure it's statistically slightly more probable, Alex :)[08:44:29] <DHowett> I'll take Marriage for $200, Alex[08:44:30] <DHowett> :P[08:44:33] <ari2-free> but they don't mold character[08:44:47] <ari2-free> they are causal relationships[08:44:52] <ddew|bofh> bullshit[08:45:04] <ari2-free> causual[08:45:11] <pyCube> nonsense[08:45:36] <AlexForster> your sexuality /is/ formed really damn early and then pretty much cemented[08:45:40] <ddew|bofh> if anything kids raised by gay parents are "better" persons in that they learn not to judge by sexuality, creed or color[08:46:06] <DHowett> ddew|bofh: amen![08:46:10] <AlexForster> by the time you get the chance to suppliment a missing male/female roll, your sexuality is probably already defined[08:46:12] <pyCube> shitty parent exist.. lots of them.. and most are hetero[08:47:28] <AlexForster> i have to go to sleep, tomorrow is going to be hell[08:47:38] <pyCube> night[08:47:43] <DHowett> 'night AlexForster[08:47:51] <AlexForster> thank you all for stemming a comment about cats into such a long conversation[08:47:53] <AlexForster> lol[08:47:53] <ddew|bofh> g'night[08:47:56] <AlexForster> night[08:47:57] <ddew|bofh> :)[08:48:07] <ari2-free> i thought the gpl was relevant :)[08:48:16] *** AlexForster has quit IRC[08:48:40] <ddew|bofh> yeah, that was like the only part of it that was atleast _slightly_ on-topic :P[08:48:43] <pyCube> cat->pets->freedom->gpl->marriage[08:49:21] <ddew|bofh> atleast people here can be reasoned with most of the time[08:49:33] <pyCube> f*** off![08:49:37] <ddew|bofh> hehe[08:49:41] <ari2-free> I'm not judgemental when it comes to bsd vs gpl[08:49:54] <DHowett> That was a rather epic discussion[08:49:55] <DHowett> :P[08:50:12] <ddew|bofh> forrums most of the time are completely cemented in their beliefs and refuse to even listen to an argument, let alone have a discussion[08:50:17] <ddew|bofh> *forums[08:51:26] <ddew|bofh> hehe, mccain reminds me more and more of the senator palpatine[08:51:59] <ari2-free> obama reminds me of mugabe[08:52:19] <ari2-free> ok here we go again[08:52:34] <pyCube> hehe[08:53:19] <ddew|bofh> only problem with that reasoning is that the only thing mugabe and obama has in common is their color. which makes you a racist[08:53:34] <ddew|bofh> mccain and palpatine atleast looks somewhat alike and share some mannerisms[08:53:35] <ari2-free> no, it's because they have the same economic policy[08:54:29] <ddew|bofh> they do? i haven't seen any mentions of expropriation in any of obamas speeches[08:54:53] <ari2-free> then you haven't been listening too carefully[08:55:15] <ddew|bofh> not once has he mentioned taking money from the hands of the rich and giving it to the poor[08:55:32] <ari2-free> "spreading the wealth"[08:55:37] <ddew|bofh> he's been talking about different taxual pressure, but never anything about taking money from someone[08:55:59] <pyCube> assuring money is more widely distributed isnt taking anything from anybody[08:56:15] <ari2-free> it sure is when it coerced[08:56:58] <pyCube> would you rather pay for good roads, or more auto maint.? better social systems or higher insurance, more prisons, fancier security systems, etc[08:57:26] <ari2-free> I don't want to pay higher taxes to give to someone else[08:57:33] <ddew|bofh> i love paying taxes[08:57:44] <ari2-free> unless he really really is that desperate[08:57:58] <DHowett> ddew|bofh: o_O[08:58:03] <DHowett> ddew|bofh: You okay? Need to go see a doctor?[08:58:04] <DHowett> :P[08:58:13] <ddew|bofh> i'm a fan of the karma concept: "what goes around, comes around"[08:58:17] <DHowett> ahh :D[08:58:38] <pyCube> ari2-free: what do you want to pay taxes for then?[08:58:43] <ddew|bofh> i apply it all the time when i'm out with my friends, like "i'll pay today and you'll pay when you can"[08:58:50] <ddew|bofh> so far it's breaking even[08:58:53] <ari2-free> for a small effective govt[08:59:14] <pyCube> small in what way?[08:59:18] <ddew|bofh> oh man, an idealist[08:59:39] <ari2-free> in a way defined by the constitution[09:00:02] <pyCube> whats so special about the constitution?[09:00:22] <ari2-free> it is defined[09:00:34] <ari2-free> you want abigger govt? change it by amendment[09:00:44] *** sprma has joined #haiku[09:00:47] <pyCube> does it contain some sort of magic?[09:01:25] <ari2-free> you can't just make the govt as big as you want because you friggin feel like it[09:01:36] <ddew|bofh> hihi, mccain is using magic to redefine the meaning of words :D[09:01:41] <pyCube> well that would be kinda dumb, wouldnt it?[09:02:02] <ari2-free> well that's what congress does all the time[09:02:09] <pyCube> i dunno about big or small.. not really ever been clear on just wtf that is supposed to mean[09:02:16] <ddew|bofh> wow, you don't know much about politics do you?[09:02:23] <pyCube> sure i do[09:02:28] <ddew|bofh> not you, ari :)[09:03:03] <pyCube> still waiting for somebody to explain[09:03:07] <ari2-free> what? i don't ask questions about what is special about the constitution[09:03:43] <pyCube> i dont recall anything about smallness in the constitution[09:03:57] <ari2-free> do you know the 10th amendment?[09:04:10] <pyCube> ..and even if it did, why does it being in the constitution make it so special[09:04:35] <pyCube> i am just asking about what you mean by small govt.. the efficient part i understand..[09:05:00] <ari2-free> because the whole point of the constitution was to restrain the power of the govt[09:05:50] <pyCube> in certain ways, yeah[09:06:08] <ari2-free> yeah...[09:06:17] <ddew|bofh> only thing regarding the 10th amendement that sticks out is that it doesn't apply to the "necessary and proper" clause according to wikipedia[09:06:55] <digitalteufel> Oh, political discussion...[09:06:55] <ari2-free> do you know what the 10th amendment says? not what wikipedia says[09:07:12] <pyCube> ari2-free: i suppose my question is why 'small govt' is always tossed around in response to things like universal health/education and such[09:07:30] <ddew|bofh> i'm reading it right now, it's quite a long read :)[09:08:10] <ari2-free> while you're at it, read the federalist papers and then get back to me :)[09:08:37] <ddew|bofh> i'll ping you in 2050 or something when i've finished studying it[09:08:47] <ari2-free> and the anti-federalist papers[09:09:05] <ddew|bofh> i'm assuming you have a degree in constitutional law?[09:09:17] <digitalteufel> Are you a republican by chance?[09:09:40] <pyCube> to me, having a govt that is focused on maintaining systems FOR the population, being the sort of functional manifestation of the results of voting on shit, that IS small govt.. tightly focused, leaving all the parenty, bothering you with what you can and cant do in your home BS to YOU[09:09:44] <ari2-free> lol no. but come on you should at least know the constitution[09:09:57] <ddew|bofh> why should i? i'm not american[09:10:01] <ari2-free> oh[09:10:07] <digitalteufel> Neither am I...[09:10:08] <ari2-free> then that's something else[09:10:13] <ddew|bofh> hell, i don't even support the idea of republics[09:10:14] <ari2-free> lol[09:11:33] <ari2-free> :)[09:11:52] <ddew|bofh> representative democracy ftw :)[09:12:38] <ari2-free> the bottom line though is that if govt is too big, there's nobody left to pay for it and that results in a lot of inflation[09:12:56] <pyCube> i guess what i am saying is that i am for small govt too.. just not small meaning doesnt do shit except go to war on occasion[09:13:24] <ddew|bofh> i'm all for efficiency[09:13:37] <ddew|bofh> big or small is of less importance as long as they do a good job[09:13:41] <pyCube> having a primarily healthy, well educated population helps everybody[09:13:45] <digitalteufel> ari2-free, so you're not a Republican then?[09:13:46] <ari2-free> you don't really get efficiency from govt[09:13:59] <ari2-free> i'm conservative[09:14:20] <digitalteufel> Who are you voting for in that case?[09:14:35] <ari2-free> conservatives :)[09:14:56] <pyCube> so... nobody?[09:14:56] <digitalteufel> So who would that be?[09:15:06] *** Teknomancer has joined #haiku[09:15:21] <ari2-free> if mccain is on the conservative line then I vote for him[09:15:24] <Teknomancer> morning[09:15:27] <DHowett> pyCube: Unfortunately, less than half of half of us are healthy, and half of that is well-informed, as americans. :p[09:15:54] <pyCube> awesome efficiency![09:15:59] <DHowett> ;)[09:16:07] <ddew|bofh> people have way too much faith in people :P[09:16:13] <digitalteufel> I was guessing a Libertarian or something but that doesn't really fly with your social conservative ideology.[09:16:22] <pyCube> we make the best electric powered shopping karts though, i'll tell you what...[09:16:44] <ari2-free> libertarians are social conservative. look at ron paul[09:16:48] <DHowett> haha[09:16:53] <DHowett> time for my 4am dinner. hmm..[09:17:00] <digitalteufel> Ron Paul is a Republican.[09:17:10] <ari2-free> bob barr[09:17:13] <Teknomancer> Ron Thal is a good guitarist[09:17:24] <ddew|bofh> indeed he is[09:17:27] <ddew|bofh> bubmlefoot ftw[09:17:31] <pyCube> pssh.. he's about as republican as kucinich is a democrat[09:17:41] <pyCube> paul, that is[09:18:04] <digitalteufel> Libertarians are kind of angry that Bob Barr is their candidate.[09:18:08] <ari2-free> i like libertarians. the problem is they don't know how to run for office[09:18:22] <pyCube> thats a huge problem, imo[09:18:29] <DHowett> How many times has Nader run?[09:18:34] <pyCube> that the game of the whole thing matters so damn much[09:18:50] <pyCube> wtf, are we playing a game, or participating in a demmocracy?[09:19:03] <ari2-free> if republicans ran against libertarians and no democrats in the way, it would not be a given that i'd vote for the republican most of the time[09:19:33] <pyCube> if you KNOW that money == better gaming == winning, then why arent people going, "wait a sec..."[09:20:40] <pyCube> people even kinda admit it.. i hear things like "i'd totally like to vote for ___, but like, theres no way he can win.."[09:21:02] <pyCube> one of them self-fufilling prophecies[09:21:13] <ari2-free> i'd like to vote for myself too[09:21:23] <pyCube> "money shoudnt matter.. but it does... because i keep saying this..."[09:21:46] <ari2-free> I can't raise over half billion dollars[09:22:18] <pyCube> what does that have to do with your ability to be a president..that doesnt involve spending loots of money convincing people to vote for you?[09:22:40] <ddew|bofh> hehe[09:22:53] <ddew|bofh> yet another reason representative democracy is superior :P[09:23:11] <ari2-free> I'm beginning to really like the canadian system[09:23:20] <digitalteufel> Well in Canada we sort of have the opposite problem. There is one party on the right and 3 on the left (4 in Quebec).[09:23:52] <digitalteufel> So vote splitting is a big problem.[09:24:15] <ddew|bofh> ari2-free: you'd like sweden too then[09:24:23] <pyCube> it'd be like a restaurant that served nothign but a jar of mayonaise or pickled pigs feet.. and the owner conluding that people are just too dumb to eat when few people visit[09:25:13] <ari2-free> well in canada there used to be 2 on the right and they unified iirc[09:26:04] <ddew|bofh> we have a bunch of parties here, the right-wing ones in the alliance and the left-wing ones in the opposition[09:26:13] <ari2-free> but what I like about it is that there is a party platform. you know what you are getting to some extent[09:27:20] <ddew|bofh> sadly the people here are too stupid to to vote properly so we wound up with a government who's royally fucked us up the ass just because they promised lower taxes[09:27:49] <digitalteufel> Have any other countries in the world adopted the American political model and didn't fail?[09:27:58] <pyCube> seems lke the reason politicians here in the usa alwasy sound sloike such dipf**ks is because their respective party has to cover SOOO much space ideals/platform wise.. 2 parties is just dumb[09:28:24] <ddew|bofh> yeah, it kinda thins out the platform[09:28:51] <ari2-free> 2 parties is dumb but so are 5 zillion little parties that hold the govt hostage over their pet issue[09:28:53] <ddew|bofh> as you have to cover so many bases[09:29:02] <pyCube> nothign but a bunch of neutered notions full of contradiction and silly compromise[09:29:29] <ddew|bofh> well here we have a bunch parties but they're grouped according to the basic systems[09:30:13] <ddew|bofh> left-wing being more about the welfare state and the right wing being more about the individual[09:30:22] <digitalteufel> It's always puzzled me why Americans fear the gays so much.[09:30:26] <ari2-free> yes that is fine[09:30:28] <pyCube> most reasonably intelligent people i meet tend to say things like, "i agree with some things republican, and some things democrat"[09:30:44] <digitalteufel> I think Obama had it right when he said it was all about god, guns and gays in some parts of the US.[09:30:52] <ari2-free> not something silly like the taxi driver party or the marijuana party[09:30:57] <ddew|bofh> left wing atm consists of the commies, the social democracts and the green party[09:31:45] *** AndrevS has quit IRC[09:31:49] <ari2-free> ok what are the differences between those 3 ddew[09:31:53] <ddew|bofh> hopefully the pirates will get into the parliament next election, will be interesting to see how they fit in[09:32:05] <ari2-free> what, social democrats are against the environment?[09:32:19] <digitalteufel> ?[09:32:29] <ddew|bofh> ari2-free: well commies want all power to the state, social democrats want some power to the state and the green party wants flowers in the hair[09:32:50] <ari2-free> not sure what the point of the green party is[09:33:00] <ddew|bofh> but they agree on fundamental issues like social security, healthcare etc[09:33:26] <pyCube> ari2-free: if nothign more than an expression of freedom, would that matter?[09:33:29] <ddew|bofh> essentially they want similar things but have different key issues[09:34:10] <ari2-free> it matters if you want stability of govt.[09:34:23] <pyCube> why? whats the connection there?[09:34:23] <ddew|bofh> we have a stable government[09:35:04] <ari2-free> lots of other parliamentary systems don't[09:35:38] <digitalteufel> Only if it's a minority government.[09:35:57] *** MegafEee has quit IRC[09:36:09] <ari2-free> yes and that's when you ask the question "what's the point of the greens?"[09:36:23] <ari2-free> like canada[09:36:25] <pyCube> freedom?[09:36:33] <pyCube> hehe[09:36:47] <ddew|bofh> the point of them is that enough people in sweden care about the envirroment to elect them into power[09:36:48] <digitalteufel> To have a vote on the issues?[09:37:03] <ari2-free> i mean why should i care? i like conservatives in control[09:37:18] *** Teknomancer has left #haiku[09:37:23] <ddew|bofh> so you don't really want a democracy to begin with then?[09:37:26] <digitalteufel> I'm not sure what you mean by your question.[09:37:37] <ari2-free> it's the left that should care they are splitting each other in pieces[09:37:51] <digitalteufel> Uh, they do.[09:38:06] <digitalteufel> The conservatives only got 35% of the vote by the way.[09:38:27] <HeTo> ari2-free: the right is split as well[09:38:57] <HeTo> or would be, if th right didn't try its best to look like left[09:38:58] <digitalteufel> HeTo, I think he is talking about Canada here.[09:39:10] <HeTo> (here aat least)[09:40:29] <HeTo> does Canada have greens?[09:40:36] <ari2-free> i'm just saying as an outsider, it doesn't make sense to have 2 parties that are virtually identical if you want your agenda to be heard with a strong voice[09:40:46] <ari2-free> i guess it's like all the linux distros[09:41:21] <ari2-free> they make distros that are basically the same because they can[09:41:22] <digitalteufel> Yeah it's called democracy.[09:41:44] <ddew|bofh> yet the distribution are often grouped like the parties here[09:41:49] <pyCube> unless more people participate because they can find a platform that is more like them, therefore said agenda gets more voice[09:41:54] <ddew|bofh> debian-based, rpm-based and source-based[09:41:54] <ari2-free> yes but it doesn't help them compete against windows[09:42:12] <ari2-free> maybe that's the point. they don't care about windows[09:42:26] <digitalteufel> However I think we (Canada) should do away with first past the post voting.[09:42:50] <ddew|bofh> competition versus windows isn't about lack of a central platforrm. the problem is that linux does not offer people more than windows[09:42:56] <digitalteufel> It would clear up the vote splitting issue.[09:43:04] <ddew|bofh> well, more as in "what people do a lot of the time"[09:43:28] <ari2-free> linux offers freedom for the sake of freedom. it doesn't have to offer more than that for those users[09:43:53] <pyCube> its not only freedom[09:43:56] <ari2-free> some people want linux to offer more than it can and they will be disappointed[09:43:57] <ddew|bofh> can linux play the games people buy, watch the movies people buy etc?[09:44:02] <pyCube> its also useful software[09:44:15] <pyCube> and other interesting stuff[09:44:26] <ddew|bofh> people care less about freedom in software than they care about getting shit done[09:44:40] <ari2-free> it's useful, of course. but some want linux to "take over the world" and be evrything for everyone[09:44:54] <Rakhun> in operating systems class a student commented that showing amount of free space in the file manager (in KDE) alone made it better than windows :P[09:44:59] <digitalteufel> Linux has taken over the world...[09:45:34] <pyCube> ari2-free: who cares what some other person says.. doesnt change its usefulness, interestingness, etc[09:46:24] <ari2-free> well some people are very idealistic. they think microsoft is evil and must be defeated[09:46:41] <pyCube> oh well[09:46:52] <pyCube> some people say lits of stupid shit[09:46:57] <pyCube> lots too[09:47:17] <ari2-free> you don't think microsoft is the spawn of satan? :)[09:47:22] *** [r4] has quit IRC[09:47:32] <pyCube> no[09:47:41] <ddew|bofh> windows has it's place, linux has it's place, mac os x has it's place etc[09:48:06] <ddew|bofh> windows for compatibility, linux for servers and hackitude and os x for slickness[09:48:10] <pyCube> i dont feel obliged to say that ms has its place.. i dont really care[09:48:16] <ddew|bofh> atleast in my domains :)[09:48:24] <ddew|bofh> *domain[09:48:33] <digitalteufel> slickness?[09:48:54] <ddew|bofh> yeah, slickness, sexitude etc[09:49:00] <ari2-free> we're not just talking about a bunch of kids though. there are major court cases filed against MSFT. EU especially[09:49:02] <ddew|bofh> path of least resistance[09:49:16] <digitalteufel> So the only thin osx has going for it is aesthetics?[09:49:22] <DHowett> digitalteufel: pretty much[09:49:24] <DHowett> :)[09:49:24] <digitalteufel> I've never used a mac.[09:49:35] <ddew|bofh> it's the path of least resistance[09:49:53] <digitalteufel> And I guess I never will as macs are now pcs.[09:50:12] <ddew|bofh> it does it's job with minimal hassle but it's not as powerful as i'd like it to be[09:50:35] <ddew|bofh> well, it can be but it takes way more hackitude than i can be bothered with[09:50:35] <ari2-free> macs before jobs really looked like pc's. they were even beige[09:50:52] <ddew|bofh> i'd say macs before ives :)[09:50:56] <digitalteufel> macs before Jobs?[09:51:11] *** Malmis has quit IRC[09:51:11] <ddew|bofh> ives is a brilliant industrial designer[09:51:11] <ari2-free> yeah the Steve[09:51:29] *** Malmis has joined #Haiku[09:51:30] <digitalteufel> ari2-free, there are no Macs before Steve Jobs.[09:51:54] <ari2-free> the in between years[09:52:26] <digitalteufel> Maybe you're thinking of the Apple II?[09:52:40] <ddew|bofh> or the macintosh?[09:52:42] <digitalteufel> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_II[09:52:45] <ddew|bofh> cause that's one ugly machine[09:52:52] <ari2-free> when gil amelio was ceo[09:53:11] <ari2-free> then jobs took over and came up with the fruity toilet bowls[09:53:12] *** daste has joined #haiku[09:53:26] <ddew|bofh> jobs didn't come up with those, ives did[09:53:42] <ari2-free> yeah but he put the final stamp of approval[09:53:48] <daste> who is da nigga who did the pthread implementation? :-)[09:54:24] <digitalteufel> So which one do you think looks like beige box then?[09:55:18] <ddew|bofh> actually ives came in before jobs[09:55:49] <ari2-free> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Beige_Power_Macintosh_G3_Minitower.jpg[09:56:27] *** Arafangion has joined #haiku[09:56:31] <ddew|bofh> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/27/Applenewton_emate300.jpg[09:56:37] <ddew|bofh> this was also macs before Jobs[09:56:46] <digitalteufel> Hm, 1997[09:57:35] <ari2-free> yeah jobs took over after that time[09:58:05] <ddew|bofh> emate was released a couple of months before jobs return :P[09:58:56] <ari2-free> emate doesn't really have the Steveyness[09:59:13] <ddew|bofh> it's got the iveness[09:59:48] <ari2-free> yeah and that's not enough[09:59:57] <ari2-free> too conservative[10:00:18] <ddew|bofh> too conservative? are you high?[10:00:36] <ddew|bofh> many things can be said of the emate, it being conservative is not one of them[10:00:38] *** sprma has quit IRC[10:00:44] <ari2-free> that design? yeah[10:01:10] <ari2-free> you didn't see it in any hollywood movie[10:01:19] *** xxploit has quit IRC[10:01:31] <digitalteufel> eh?[10:01:46] <ddew|bofh> you think that's because it was a bad design or more because apple was bankrupt and couldn't afford product placements?[10:02:27] <ari2-free> actually i wouldn't say conservative especially after noticing the blue around the screen. that's just ugly[10:03:05] *** wildur has joined #Haiku[10:03:26] *** wildur has quit IRC[10:03:36] <ddew|bofh> ugly? sure. but it didn't look anything like a pc[10:03:56] <ari2-free> but steve brought a sense of style[10:03:56] *** wildur has joined #Haiku[10:04:13] <ari2-free> not enough just to be different[10:04:25] <ddew|bofh> steve didn't bring anything, ives was already at apple doing designs when he came back[10:05:38] <ari2-free> ives does what the ceo tells him. if the ceo wants ugly designs then that's what he'll make[10:06:00] <digitalteufel> It's actually Ive not Ives :P[10:06:14] <ddew|bofh> my bad :)[10:06:48] * Arafangion watches the discussion about his mortal enemy.[10:08:20] <ddew|bofh> personally i'm no fan of the fruity, flashy stuff. i'm a diehard fan of the Al-book design :)[10:08:39] <Arafangion> Used to be a mac fanboy until they charged the retail price of a replacement laptop for a common fault on the M/B. :([10:08:57] * Arafangion is a Debian Linux -on-a-Lenovo fan.[10:09:17] <ddew|bofh> i love their hardware, don't care much for the os though[10:09:48] <Arafangion> Quite usable, though.[10:10:20] <ddew|bofh> i run windows server 2008 on mine[10:10:31] <ari2-free> what about the iphone? any takers?[10:10:36] <Arafangion> I use Vista at work, and I hate it's guts. :([10:10:37] <ddew|bofh> lovely phone[10:10:55] <digitalteufel> What about the iphone?[10:11:04] <Arafangion> ari2-free: Needs buttons, stylus is just way too slow for rapid sms'ing.[10:11:10] <ddew|bofh> i use vista on my ws, server 2008 on the smackbook, xp on my aasone and linux on my servers and eeepc[10:11:25] <DHowett> Arafangion: What was the fault? and how dare they :P[10:11:43] <ddew|bofh> i've become quite proficient at typing on the iphone, once you turn off the autocompletion that is[10:11:46] <Arafangion> DHowett: The only sympton I had, as a mere mortal, was that the screen was "grey".[10:12:11] <DHowett> I've got server08 on my laptop, but run it 1% of the time; mainly gentoo linux, sometimes haiku. On my Aspire One i've got XP/GentooCustom/Haiku/OSX[10:12:15] <DHowett> Arafangion: ahh[10:12:47] *** franxico has joined #Haiku[10:13:04] <Arafangion> DHowett: Mind you, most of my laptops only seem to last me 2 years. :([10:13:09] <Arafangion> Getting very irritating.[10:13:28] <DHowett> Arafangion: o_o jeez[10:13:47] <Arafangion> DHowett: I type so much that I wear a groove in the space, and the letters wear off. ;)[10:13:53] <DHowett> wow[10:14:00] <DHowett> Bound to happen I suppose[10:14:16] * Arafangion has not had a keyboard in the past 8 years without the keys wearing off.[10:14:19] *** Ingenu has joined #Haiku[10:14:44] <Arafangion> Usually takes me another 3 months to notice that they're worn, though. ;)[10:15:19] <Arafangion> Strangely the 'n' is the first to go.[10:15:21] <ari2-free> does the iphone screen really stand up to a lot of 'typing'?[10:15:44] *** daste has quit IRC[10:15:47] <ddew|bofh> ari2-free: it's not something you type novels on. but for texting and email it works[10:16:15] <ari2-free> i'd think it would be scratched and smudged up quickly[10:16:26] <ddew|bofh> nah, it's glass[10:16:37] <Arafangion> Glass scratches too. :)[10:16:49] <ddew|bofh> sure, but it's a lot more resistant than plastic[10:17:14] <ddew|bofh> unless you have a habit of keeping your keys in the same pocket there little risk of scratching :)[10:17:57] <ari2-free> what if you forget to cut your nails regularly? :)[10:18:23] * Arafangion realises he should trim his nails...[10:18:45] <ari2-free> and the ladies[10:19:20] <ari2-free> with the iphone with the diamond trim[10:20:32] <ddew|bofh> nails don't scratch glass[10:21:09] <ddew|bofh> well atleast not my pimpnails and the iphone :)[10:22:50] <DHowett> They're more and more often making touchscreens out of that pretty-darn-hard-to-scratch special glass stuff[10:22:53] <DHowett> :P[10:22:57] <ari2-free> i say this because i have scratched glasses before[10:23:33] <ddew|bofh> i'd say that the glass on the iphone is like the glass you get on higher end glasses[10:23:40] <ddew|bofh> way scratch resistant[10:24:05] <Arafangion> I've my eye on the android.[10:24:49] <Arafangion> Once the damn thing becomes visible anyway.[10:25:24] <DHowett> ugh. 5:26 in the morning[10:25:34] <DHowett> At this point I think I should just give up on sleeping and stay up all day :P[10:25:47] <Arafangion> DHowett: Indeed. :)[10:26:01] <ddew|bofh> sounds like you'll need espresso[10:26:17] <DHowett> last time I did this, i went to bed at midnight the next day and somehow wasn't able to sleep![10:26:18] <DHowett> :P[10:26:20] <Arafangion> Turkish has more caffiene per volume, I think.[10:26:44] <ari2-free> i love turkish coffee[10:26:59] <ari2-free> just don't eat the mud on the bottom[10:27:04] <DHowett> haha..[10:27:12] * Arafangion loves turkish coffee too, but needs a mortar and pestle to grind it better.[10:27:13] <ddew|bofh> turkish coffee is nice but espresso works better for me[10:27:28] *** PulkoMandy has joined #haiku[10:28:43] <ari2-free> cardamom is one of my favorite spices[10:29:18] <Arafangion> Chilli is mine. :)[10:29:27] *** xxploit has joined #haiku[10:29:31] <ari2-free> yeah but not in coffee :)[10:29:37] <DHowett> haha[10:29:52] <ddew|bofh> i've managed to kill off most of my tastebuds :P[10:30:00] <Arafangion> ari2-free: What?[10:30:07] <Arafangion> ari2-free: You don't just have the coffee pure?[10:30:22] <ari2-free> turkish coffee is made with cardamom[10:30:43] <Arafangion> I should give that a go.[10:30:51] <ari2-free> yeah you put it on top[10:31:28] <Arafangion> I'm Australian.[10:32:41] <ari2-free> i was taught this from someone from egypt[10:36:34] <ari2-free> we have an old fashioned spice store in the neighborhood. bags of all kinds of stuff[10:38:44] <ddew|bofh> roflmfao[10:39:00] <ddew|bofh> kenny vs spennys latest show is _EPIC_[10:48:05] *** Monni has joined #Haiku[10:55:38] *** franxico has quit IRC[11:01:07] *** ThomasShirley has joined #haiku[11:13:34] <DHowett> If looks could really kill, then my profession would be staring.[11:14:07] <Monni> PayPal is funny... half of the time it complains about insufficient funds on account, half of the times it charges my credit card...[11:14:43] *** Rakhun has quit IRC[11:17:57] *** Stefan100 has joined #haiku[11:20:36] *** mr6565 has joined #haiku[11:20:51] <ari2-free> dhowett, so this means you work in the peace corps?[11:21:01] <DHowett> o_O[11:21:04] * DHowett is confused.[11:21:05] <ari2-free> :)[11:22:09] <ari2-free> If looks could really kill, then my profession would be staring.[11:23:04] *** redblue has quit IRC[11:24:11] <DHowett> indeed? :P[11:24:13] <DHowett> :P[11:24:43] <ari2-free> that was your quote, hippie :P[11:24:51] <DHowett> ;)[11:24:57] <ari2-free> kumbaya[11:26:22] <DHowett> so tired.. but not really tired at all.[11:26:40] <DHowett> 6:30 in the morning. Don't plan on sleep. Just further my insomnia.[11:27:21] <ari2-free> oh I hate that feeling. you feel like a zombie[11:27:41] <ari2-free> i went to sleep at 9 pm so that is why I'm up so early[11:27:42] <ddew|bofh> it's pretty ok once you hit the second wind[11:27:52] <DHowett> hehe[11:28:00] <DHowett> ddew|bofh: yep.. once i make it past 20 hours up i'm good[11:28:14] <DHowett> ari2-free: Last time I went to bed at 9pm (saturday night) i slept for.. well, 20 hours. :P[11:28:16] <ddew|bofh> yeah, i'm about to hit that sweetspot[11:28:21] <DHowett> ddew|bofh: niice :)[11:28:33] <ddew|bofh> i plan on staying up for about 12 more hours[11:28:49] <DHowett> I'm planning on either 2 more or 22 more (i haven't even been up for 15 yet)[11:28:53] <ddew|bofh> gonna need massive amounts of caffeine in about 2 hours :P[11:29:52] <ddew|bofh> if i had my own washer i'd be set, wouldn't need to be awake during lighthours[11:30:09] <ddew|bofh> but now i have to do laundry when others are awake :P[11:31:46] <Arafangion> ddew|bofh: Move in wiht someone who's deaf, if it's that big a problem for you. ;)[11:32:16] <ddew|bofh> that's not the problem, but the laundryroom is only available from 8AM to 8PM[11:32:32] <ddew|bofh> so i have to wash durring daytime :)[11:32:43] <DHowett> ddew|bofh: what timezone yeh in?[11:32:59] <ddew|bofh> CET[11:33:05] * DHowett counts on his fingers.[11:33:12] <ddew|bofh> GMT+1[11:33:16] <DHowett> Ah, wow.[11:33:33] <DHowett> I'm in GMT minus I have no idea because the US practices daylight savings time. 4 or 5.[11:33:37] <DHowett> US Eastern time.[11:33:47] <DHowett> hah[11:33:47] <ddew|bofh> PDT?[11:34:02] <DHowett> EDT at best[11:34:15] <ddew|bofh> i'm at PDT+8 anyhoo[11:34:42] <ddew|bofh> and unless i'm mistaken that's like closest to me timezone in the us?[11:35:27] <DHowett> you'd be EDT+5.. would that be closer?[11:35:28] <DHowett> no idea[11:35:28] <DHowett> :P[11:35:49] <ddew|bofh> heh, timezones are gnarly[11:35:53] <DHowett> indeed so.[11:36:11] <ddew|bofh> i havve two clocks, one set to CET and one set to PDT. the rest are irrelevant :P[11:36:31] <DHowett> Daylight Saving Time even moreso. I mean, one of the states out here.. three quarters of it does not practice DST and the rest 1/4 (apart from a tiny blotch in the corner) does..[11:37:25] <ddew|bofh> i suppose the concept of DST has merits but if not everyone is going by it then it's gotta suck[11:37:37] *** thotypous has joined #haiku[11:37:53] <DHowett> indeed :D[11:38:35] <Arafangion> ddew|bofh: What merits?[11:38:45] <ddew|bofh> more daylight during "peak" hours[11:38:52] <ddew|bofh> like the afternoon[11:39:16] <Arafangion> Ha.[11:39:23] <DHowett> Disliking the daylight cancels out the merits though :)[11:39:45] <ddew|bofh> indeed :)[11:40:20] <ddew|bofh> it's not so bad during the winter but summertime daylight sucks[11:40:32] <ddew|bofh> my apartment faces west[11:40:38] <DHowett> aye[11:40:48] <ddew|bofh> with no shade whatsoever[11:41:11] <DHowett> >:{[11:41:12] <ddew|bofh> so i have direct sunlight from ~lunch to sunset[11:41:19] <DHowett> ew[11:41:20] <ddew|bofh> it gets _hot_ in here[11:41:34] <DHowett> throw a huge mirror into that window :P[11:41:39] <ddew|bofh> hehe[11:41:57] <Arafangion> I have summertime daylight savings.[11:42:07] <ddew|bofh> well i usually let my blinds down in march and pull them up in december :P[11:42:20] <DHowett> hehe[11:43:01] *** Malmis has quit IRC[11:43:44] *** thebolt|away is now known as thebolt[11:44:53] <ddew|bofh> hehe, i like axels reply to revol in the icon-o-matic thread on the ml :)[11:45:07] <ddew|bofh> "Just complete Haiku and switch, that can't be so hard :-)"[11:45:28] <DHowett> I did notice that.. haha[11:45:32] <DHowett> If only![11:45:32] <DHowett> :)[11:45:58] <ddew|bofh> hopefully it's not another 8 years down the line :P[11:46:05] <DHowett> ;)[11:50:21] <Monni> I don't think any OS will ever be "complete"...[11:50:55] <ddew|bofh> Captain Obvious to the rescue![11:51:08] <ari2-free> usable[11:51:43] <ari2-free> like windows (pretty low standard)[11:51:53] <Monni> it has been usable for quite a while already... by that definition ;)[11:52:01] <Arafangion> Monni: btw, the Git repo for Haiku is even smaller than a subversion checkout. :)[11:52:39] <Monni> Arafangion: Well... Git should use compression, which svn doesn't ;)[11:53:03] <Arafangion> Monni: Indeed, but while SVN doesn't use compression, it /also/ doesn't keep a history.[11:53:36] <Monni> Arafangion: svn also makes two copies of each file... working copy and last revision ;)[11:54:20] <DHowett> at least not a local history[11:54:38] <Arafangion> DHowett: Or any history.[11:55:42] <Monni> I don't think it's such a big issue unless Berlios moves over to Git ;)[11:56:10] <DHowett> Erm.. it keeps a history.. the entire repository is versioned, logged, etc. for all revisions.. unless i'm misinterpreting the meaning of history?[11:56:41] <thebolt> DHowett: yes it does.. but only server-side[11:56:55] <DHowett> thebolt: Right. I said "at least not a local history" and he said "Or any history"[11:56:57] <thebolt> git (and bazaar and mercurial and other dvcs) keeps it in every copy[11:57:23] <thebolt> and well, in some cases it doesn't keep any history.. such as when merging branches[11:57:28] <DHowett> true[11:57:40] <thebolt> (which causes major headache..)[11:59:11] <rkbm> Search Results[11:59:11] <rkbm> 1.[11:59:14] <rkbm> oops[11:59:17] <miqlas> I hope, 3dEyes will share the apps and maybe the sources...: http://haikuware.ru/files/misc/navitracker4haiku.jpg[12:00:20] *** thotypous has quit IRC[12:01:23] <ddew|bofh> egad, what a ghastly desktop[12:01:36] <ari2-free> very orange[12:02:33] <ari2-free> orange and yellow were never my favorite colors[12:02:35] *** PulkoMandy has quit IRC[12:02:44] <Arafangion> YIKES, that's the first time I've seen a good approximation for the orange I like. :)[12:02:49] <ddew|bofh> it's too cluttered for my taste[12:03:03] <ddew|bofh> haiku for me is about simplicity and cleanness[12:03:10] *** thotypous has joined #haiku[12:03:20] <ddew|bofh> what i like to call slickitude[12:03:24] <ari2-free> at least the icons are aligned[12:04:35] <ari2-free> it's very easy to have unaligned icons in beos[12:05:01] <ddew|bofh> alt-k helps a lot[12:05:24] <ari2-free> shouldn't have to[12:05:45] <ddew|bofh> well fork tracker and fix it then'[12:05:58] <ari2-free> but this is UI polish[12:07:10] <ddew|bofh> not even part of the os itself if you want to nitpick :P[12:08:33] <ari2-free> so where is the clutter you're talking about? because most screenshots have icons everywhere[12:09:07] <ddew|bofh> yeah, but not clocks everywhere and the general feel of it[12:09:15] <ddew|bofh> it's a very loud background for example[12:09:45] <ari2-free> yeah the background is crazy[12:09:54] <ddew|bofh> but again, it's just my taste :)[12:10:03] <ddew|bofh> people are free to do whatever they want[12:10:22] <ddew|bofh> i don't even use wallpapers[12:11:08] <ari2-free> it sorta goes with the yellow tabs[12:11:18] <ari2-free> but i don't like yellow tabs either :)[12:11:43] <ari2-free> halloween theme[12:11:51] <ddew|bofh> i'm a fan of the tabs, they're not in the way and very powerful[12:12:02] <ari2-free> the yellow...[12:12:11] <ddew|bofh> you can change the color[12:12:51] <ari2-free> but people like it for some reason. not sure why :)[12:13:13] <ddew|bofh> it's minimalistic i suppose[12:13:40] <ari2-free> it's cute I guess[12:13:55] <ari2-free> like the icons[12:14:26] *** leszek_fh has joined #haiku[12:14:41] <leszek_fh> hi[12:14:54] <Monni> bees like yellow color, so why shouldn't humans too...[12:15:55] <ari2-free> because it looks like...urine?[12:16:04] <leszek_fh> :P[12:16:30] <thotypous> it looks like honey[12:16:39] *** nielx has joined #haiku[12:16:42] <ari2-free> could be worse. ubuntu looks like...[12:16:52] <nielx> hi gang[12:16:53] <ddew|bofh> feces?[12:16:55] *** vmlemon_ has joined #haiku[12:16:56] <ddew|bofh> poop?[12:17:13] <ari2-free> i was gonna say mud :P[12:17:20] <leszek_fh> ubuntu is brownish :P[12:17:35] <leszek_fh> like a brownie ;)[12:17:39] <Monni> and men like boobs because they look like buttocks... erf[12:17:42] <DHowett> It also looks like bird. at least Hardy :P[12:17:54] <DHowett> That doesn't even make sense. x.x[12:18:19] <leszek_fh> Heron is a bird[12:18:36] <DHowett> No, i mean the breasts/buttocks thing[12:18:47] <leszek_fh> :P[12:19:00] <Monni> that's what they did teach in history classes ;)[12:19:32] <ari2-free> nobody knows why for sure[12:19:48] <Monni> not everything they teach in schools makes sense ;)[12:20:07] <ddew|bofh> and very little you say resembles "sense"[12:20:15] <ari2-free> nobody thinks "hey! I really need a glass of milk!"[12:20:15] <leszek_fh> :I[12:20:35] <ddew|bofh> boobs are symbols for females[12:20:39] <Monni> primal instincts ;)[12:21:04] <DHowett> ddew|bofh: Or guys with a glandular problem :P[12:21:15] <ddew|bofh> DHowett: heh[12:21:17] <ari2-free> yeah but if you saw some amazon tribal women, they look like triangles and not attractive at all[12:21:21] <DHowett> HAHA[12:21:32] <ddew|bofh> that's irrelevant, they still symbolize women[12:21:36] <Monni> prehistoric humans didn't interact with other humans face-to-face... that happened a lot later ;)[12:21:46] <leszek_fh> :)[12:22:18] <ddew|bofh> Monni: define pre-historic[12:22:34] <Arafangion> ddew|bofh: He probably means before the mid-1980's.[12:22:39] <Monni> lol[12:22:50] <ari2-free> yeah when everyone was black and white[12:23:02] <leszek_fh> even the tv !?[12:23:48] <ari2-free> there was a time before tv[12:23:51] <Monni> prehistoric (comparative more prehistoric, superlative most prehistoric)rnrnPositivernprehistoricrn rnrnComparativernmore prehistoricrn rnrnSuperlativernmost prehistoricrnrn 1. Of relating to the epoch before written record.[12:24:11] <ddew|bofh> ok, so you'd say that 25000BC is pre-historic?[12:25:04] * Arafangion was only born in 1985...[12:25:06] <ari2-free> a time when raqel welch was really hot[12:25:11] * Monni was born in 197[12:25:13] * Monni was born in 1979[12:26:01] <ddew|bofh> there are drawings of humans interacting face to face from that time period, so your assertation is invalid[12:26:23] <ddew|bofh> err assertion[12:27:46] *** Malmis has joined #Haiku[12:27:48] <nielx> guys, I feel incomplete without a machine to run Haiku on :-([12:28:02] <leszek_fh> try a virtual machine[12:28:44] * vmlemon_ hands nielx a copy of PhysicalBox ;)[12:28:53] <Monni> lol[12:29:07] <nielx> nah, my powerpc mac is nowhere capable of handling emulation[12:29:21] <Monni> ddew|both: drawing != writing ;)[12:29:36] <leszek_fh> nielx, which ppc is it ?[12:29:38] *** MegafEee has joined #Haiku[12:30:26] <ddew|bofh> Monni: gee, you're really good at stating the obvious[12:31:13] <nielx> leszek_fh: G4 1.25 Ghz[12:31:15] <Monni> ddew|both: to the point it gets seriously annoying...[12:31:35] <leszek_fh> nielx, the same that i have in my macmini 1st gen.[12:31:39] <ddew|bofh> Monni: i'm oblivious to annoyance, i can go on forever if need be :)[12:31:54] <thebolt> Monni: if you were born in 197 you are almost prehistoric)[12:32:08] <ari2-free> no, just really old[12:32:22] <Monni> ddew|both: I know there is records of male-male interaction face-to-face, but it was already narrowed to male-female interaction in intimate level...[12:32:30] <leszek_fh> nielx, buy a cheap thinkpad. They are round about 200 € here[12:32:46] <leszek_fh> and haiku should support most of the hw[12:33:06] <Monni> thebolt: stupid keyboard eats characters when I try to type fast...[12:33:30] <Arafangion> Monni: That's the problem I have wiht my wireless keyboard![12:33:53] <nielx> leszek_fh: Unfortunately, my new paid job starts at the 15th, and I have some interim debt to pay off first, so that's not really an option :-)[12:33:55] <Monni> Arafangion: I have that problem with any keyboard.... I like blind-typing....[12:33:56] <ddew|bofh> Monni: there's also male-female face interaction observable in other primates "lower" on the evolutional scale.[12:34:07] <ddew|bofh> or rather female to male[12:34:08] <Arafangion> Monni: I don't actually look at the keyboard.[12:34:52] <Monni> Arafangion: For some people it's not necessary to look at the keyboard... they memorize the key locations pretty easily...[12:35:16] <ari2-free> some people...hehe[12:35:23] <Arafangion> Monni: Memorize? Bah, my fingers just know where things are. :)[12:35:29] <leszek_fh> most of them are coders :P[12:35:36] <DHowett> ;)[12:35:37] <Monni> a lot of times I type faster than operating system draws characters on screen...[12:35:52] <leszek_fh> yeah thats something i know[12:36:05] <Monni> I'm not coder, I'm toy designer ;)[12:36:06] <leszek_fh> especially when theres some work in the backgrouhd[12:36:17] <leszek_fh> *background[12:36:38] <leszek_fh> RMS would say Coders are just like cookers :P[12:36:47] <leszek_fh> so they cook ;)[12:37:20] <ari2-free> cook what? cold pizza and ramen noodles?[12:37:31] <leszek_fh> coee[12:37:31] <Monni> my former boss is still thinking if he should hire me back... I already declined twice...[12:37:33] <leszek_fh> *code[12:37:35] <vmlemon_> RMS eats?[12:37:42] <leszek_fh> damn eepc keyboard, to small[12:38:00] <ari2-free> you never saw a picture of rms, have you?[12:38:08] <leszek_fh> RMS eats code too, i suppose[12:38:16] <vmlemon_> I've saw one that's several years old[12:38:18] <leszek_fh> :P[12:38:33] <leszek_fh> vmlemon_, it didn't change a lot[12:38:40] <vmlemon_> Not sure if it's an accurate representation of what he looks like now, though[12:38:55] <vmlemon_> (Was linked to from his personal home page, if I remember correctly)[12:38:55] <ddew|bofh> add a few wrinkles and it's pretty much the same :P[12:39:55] <ari2-free> he still looks like santa[12:40:04] <vmlemon_> Haha[12:40:07] <ddew|bofh> or a hippie[12:40:14] <ddew|bofh> damn hippies[12:40:15] <Monni> and santa looks like any regular pedophile...[12:40:27] *** waveshaper has joined #haiku[12:40:57] <leszek_fh> thats santa hippie[12:41:36] <Monni> I bet santa hippie rides Kleinbus and not reindeers ;)[12:41:37] *** miqlas has quit IRC[12:42:31] <vmlemon_> Campervans?[12:43:11] <Monni> and instead of North Pole. Santa Hippie lives in San Francisco..[12:43:40] <Monni> VW Kleinbus ;)[12:43:56] <leszek_fh> :)[12:50:20] *** rdmr has joined #haiku[12:50:55] *** Yaroze has quit IRC[12:52:40] <Monni> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Vw_bus_t1_v_sst.jpg[12:55:18] <ddew|bofh> is it november 23:rd yet? :P[12:56:04] <ddew|bofh> 25 days to go and i'm already going crazy[12:56:58] *** rdmr has joined #haiku[13:02:00] <Andrius> is november 23rd another end of the world?[13:02:13] <ddew|bofh> nope[13:02:22] <ddew|bofh> it's the date of Chinese Democracy[13:03:07] *** MegafEee has quit IRC[13:03:44] <CIA-60> bonefish * r28354 /haiku/trunk/src/system/libroot/posix/pthread/pthread_mutex.c: (log message trimmed)[13:03:44] <CIA-60> Fixed some incorrect behavior pointed out in #2990:[13:03:44] <CIA-60> * The pthread_mutex_*lock() family should return EDEADLK when re-locking[13:03:44] <CIA-60> an error-checked mutex.[13:03:44] <CIA-60> * pthread_mutex_trylock() is supposed to return EBUSY, not[13:03:46] <CIA-60> B_WOULD_BLOCK.[13:03:48] <CIA-60> * pthread_mutex_unlock() should return EPERM when the caller is not the[13:03:50] <Andrius> does such thing exist?[13:05:55] *** aldeck has joined #Haiku[13:06:01] <ddew|bofh> well it's taken 13 years and 18M$ but it's finally here[13:14:33] *** mmu_man has joined #haiku[13:14:33] *** ChanServ sets mode: +o mmu_man[13:24:52] *** NeonLicht has quit IRC[13:28:25] *** DHowett has left #haiku[13:29:28] *** thotypous has quit IRC[13:29:49] *** thotypous has joined #haiku[13:31:07] *** idefix_xifedi has joined #haiku[13:36:14] *** BGA has joined #haiku[13:36:14] *** ChanServ sets mode: +o BGA[13:41:16] *** bwilliams__ has quit IRC[13:41:40] *** bwilliams__ has joined #haiku[13:43:58] *** VeGeek has joined #haiku[13:48:04] *** leszek_fh has quit IRC[13:48:14] *** vmlemon_ has quit IRC[13:54:15] *** NeonLicht has joined #haiku[13:54:25] *** ddew|bofh has quit IRC[14:06:44] *** digitalteufel has quit IRC[14:06:49] *** digitalteufel has joined #haiku[14:10:15] *** VeGeek has quit IRC[14:17:19] *** [r4] has joined #Haiku[14:25:28] *** digitalteufel has quit IRC[14:26:09] *** rdmr has quit IRC[14:29:02] *** Barrett666 has joined #haiku[14:30:48] *** Barrett666_ has joined #haiku[14:34:32] *** DeadYak has joined #haiku[14:34:44] *** aphedox has joined #haiku[14:36:59] *** idefix_xifedi has left #haiku[14:41:04] *** Arafangion has quit IRC[14:48:45] *** Barrett666 has quit IRC[14:58:58] *** [r4] has quit IRC[15:01:12] <mmu_man> hmm is the alpha image gcc2 or 4 ??[15:01:24] <DeadYak> gcc2 w/ gcc4 optional libs[15:03:43] *** Barrett666_ has quit IRC[15:03:57] *** Barrett666 has joined #haiku[15:04:07] *** Teknomancer has joined #haiku[15:10:57] <mmu_man> optional ? are they in or not ?[15:11:35] <DeadYak> err[15:11:40] <DeadYak> by that I just meant it has gcc4 cross libs[15:11:54] <DeadYak> afaik they're on the pre image[15:12:22] <mmu_man> http://down.codeweavers.com/ < For today only, we are putting up fully unlocked builds.[15:12:22] <CIA-60> axeld * r28355 /haiku/trunk/ (headers/posix/glob.h src/system/libroot/posix/glob.c):[15:12:22] <CIA-60> * Updated glob.h and its implementation to FreeBSD current (1.10, 1.27),[15:12:22] <CIA-60> adapted them to work on Haiku.[15:12:27] <mmu_man> does it mean it needs a key or not ?[15:12:38] <mmu_man> I've been trying to understand for 1h :D[15:12:45] <DeadYak> doesn't need a key afaik[15:13:03] <mmu_man> that's what I thought but it was a bit misleading[15:13:09] <mmu_man> the previous page was even more[15:13:13] *** numbah_ is now known as numbah[15:13:27] <mmu_man> it's funny how they did that: http://209.85.135.104/search?q=cache:xjFVxJJSHIgJ:lameduck.codeweavers.com/+crossover+codeweavers&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=3&client=firefox[15:14:26] *** Animal-X has joined #haiku[15:14:32] <helf> huh[15:14:36] <helf> FF3 acts weird with its tabs[15:15:13] <helf> half the time when i try to scroll through them with the mouse scroll wheel, they will stop at a certain tab and not go any further until I backup and try again. like i have to ram my way forwards :P[15:19:02] *** wildur_ has joined #Haiku[15:19:38] *** wildur has quit IRC[15:28:18] *** bwilliams__ has quit IRC[15:28:42] *** Hoern has joined #Haiku[15:30:44] *** bwilliams__ has joined #haiku[15:33:18] *** nielx has quit IRC[16:00:53] *** hdanak has quit IRC[16:18:24] *** Hoern has quit IRC[16:19:36] *** tigerdog has joined #haiku[16:29:36] *** judgen has joined #haiku[16:31:37] *** VinDuv|Haiku has joined #haiku[16:35:36] *** MrSunshine__ has joined #haiku[16:36:02] *** waveshaper has quit IRC[16:39:30] *** Malmis has quit IRC[16:51:07] *** Malmis has joined #Haiku[16:51:53] *** MrSunshine_ has quit IRC[17:09:36] *** idefix_xifedi has joined #haiku[17:21:46] *** tqh has joined #haiku[17:23:06] <tqh> evening[17:25:10] <DeadYak> hi tqh[17:25:29] <judgen> morning[17:36:05] <helf> hola[17:38:35] <Monni> hola a todos ;)[17:39:27] *** ThomasShirley is now known as Thomas_away[17:41:28] <thotypous> hola :D[17:43:22] <Monni> daily Spanish lessons ;)[17:45:40] <thotypous> muchas personas hablan el español ;)[17:45:44] <thotypous> plop[17:46:36] <Monni> si... claro... telenovelas ;)[17:47:30] <judgen> si[17:48:09] <Monni> Juana la Virgen, Mi Gorda Bella, Los Serrano....[17:48:32][17:48:33] <judgen> =)[17:48:59] <judgen> or my native tounges.[17:49:28] *** Yaroze has joined #haiku[17:49:43] *** tqh has quit IRC[17:51:06] <Monni> that's "native languages", not "tongues"...[17:51:32] *** tqh has joined #haiku[17:51:41] <Monni> tongue stays inside mouth, language is what comes out ;)[17:51:51] <thotypous> hehe[17:53:49] <mmu_man> you never went to see KISS in concert[17:53:57] <mmu_man> tongue doesn't always stay inside :)[17:54:35] <Monni> erf...[17:54:42] <thebolt> Monni: well, its still your mother tongue ;)[17:54:49] <Monni> for normal people, it should stay there...[17:54:57] <Monni> "mother language" ;)[17:55:07] <thebolt> nah.. :P[17:55:30] <Monni> just like it's "Father land", and not "Father Earth" ;)[17:55:42] <mmu_man> http://dictionary.die.net/tongue[17:55:47] <mmu_man> 2: a human written or spoken language used by a community; opposed to e.g. a computer language [syn: natural language] [ant: artificial language][17:56:01] <thebolt> Monni: no, it is "mother tongue" (but native language)[17:56:09] <Monni> nah...[17:56:30] <thebolt> (which btw can be totally different from your mothers language ;)[17:56:39] *** rdmr has joined #haiku[17:57:33] <judgen> Monni dont be so picky[17:57:57] <judgen> Monni Russians say motherland.[17:58:01] <Monni> I'm entitled to be picky... as I study linguistics.... that word originates from time lot before computers...[17:58:21] *** mmu_man sets mode: +m[17:58:27] * mmu_man gags everyone for a while[17:58:32] <mmu_man> >:-)[17:58:44] <mmu_man> keep your tongue in...[17:58:53] *** mmu_man sets mode: -m[17:58:54] <judgen> hehe[17:59:11] <Monni> Religion and language comes from mother, nationality comes from father...[17:59:14] <tigerdog> hello tqh[17:59:23] <tqh> hi tigerdog[17:59:23] * DeadYak pets tigerdog[17:59:37] * tigerdog wags tail at DeadYak[17:59:42] *** tolimanB has joined #haiku[17:59:53] <tolimanB> monin[17:59:54] <tigerdog> tqh, is there anything I can do to help with nspr?[18:00:04] <judgen> Monni so if your father was a deadbeat looser that you have never met because he ran away, and he was a lets say hungarian, and your mother was american and you were brought up in america.... i would still call you american.[18:00:18] <tigerdog> tqh: maybe kidnap an nspr guru for you? :)[18:00:52] <judgen> Also Monni we speak two languages in our family, so wich one came from my mother?[18:01:06] <tqh> tigerdog, I think it's pretty much done. I no longer focus on BeOS or Zeta.[18:01:49] <tigerdog> tqh, I understand and agree moving forward with Haiku is a better use of time.[18:02:22] <tqh> and it should work with beos and zeta, as it is now.[18:02:27] <tigerdog> tqh: I was just hoping to be able to incorporate all your work into the last few BeOS/Zeta versions.[18:02:28] <Monni> judgen: Both my parents were born in Finland, my father speaks Swedish as first language, my mother speaks Finnish... Finnish is officially my first language[18:03:39] <tigerdog> tqh: unfortunately, the last version posted still has that issue of a crash on startup.[18:03:43] <tigerdog> as posted to the bug[18:04:43] *** mmu_man has quit IRC[18:04:51] <tqh> tigerdog, ah, might see if I can unbreak that.[18:04:52] *** mmu_man has joined #haiku[18:04:52] *** ChanServ sets mode: +o mmu_man[18:05:11] *** thebolt is now known as thebolt|away[18:05:14] *** mmu_man has quit IRC[18:05:15] <tqh> although right now I'm trying to update the mercurial repo[18:06:01] <tigerdog> tqh: would be helpful if you can unbreak it. you suggested I look to see if "USE_TCP_SOCKETPAIR" is definied in build-dir. I'm checking now.[18:07:20] *** petterhj has joined #haiku[18:08:17] <tqh> tigerdog, btio.c 2183 and forward is probably the cause.[18:08:45] <tqh> no, wait it was commented[18:09:01] * tigerdog looks at btio.c[18:11:10] <tigerdog> tqh: yes, definitely commented in the version I built/tested.[18:11:27] <tqh> it should be as it always been then.[18:12:45] <tigerdog> CVS version does not have btio.c[18:12:58] <tqh> I know, it's mine :)[18:13:25] <tigerdog> tqh: :)[18:13:57] <tigerdog> tqh: but what do you mean by "as it alwasy been" if it doesn't exist at all.[18:14:24] <tigerdog> tqh: should I compare it against a copy of your earlier work (from last year)?[18:14:25] <tqh> it didn't before either. I was planning on implement it when I was still working on BeOS / Zeta[18:14:42] <tigerdog> tqh: ah! I understand.[18:15:06] <tqh> tigerdog, yes if you want to. Not sure why/where that broke.[18:15:24] <tigerdog> tqh: OK. few seconds please...[18:16:30] *** markos_ has quit IRC[18:17:33] <tolimanB> does gtk runs on haiku?[18:17:53] <DeadYak> nope[18:20:41] <thotypous> I hope we don't need to port gtk until the end of the world[18:21:37] * DeadYak hopes Haiku does not get swarmed by toolkit hell either[18:21:39] <tigerdog> tqh: interesting: last version of your nspr I used had that section *not* commented out[18:21:54] <tolimanB> hehh[18:21:58] <tqh> tigerdog, and it worked better?[18:22:26] <tqh> If that's the case I rule :)[18:22:30] <tigerdog> tqh: but was set off with "ifndef HAVE_SOCKETPAIR" current version has "#ifndef XP_HAIKU"[18:22:59] <tigerdog> tqh: definitely worked better... it worked. this doesn't. therefore, YOU RULE! q.e.d. :)[18:23:19] <tqh> hmm, is that a zeta build?[18:23:26] *** Begasus has joined #haiku[18:23:35] <tqh> tigerdog, although the socketpair code was mmu_mans[18:23:37] <tigerdog> tqh: yes, but I've also used it under BONE, if I recall.[18:23:47] <tigerdog> and maybe R5[18:23:53] <Begasus> evening peeps[18:23:55] <tqh> tigerdog, ah, wonder if zeta has socketpair[18:24:09] <tigerdog> tqh: we all know mmu_man rocks! :)[18:24:34] <tigerdog> tqh: is there an easy way to tell?[18:24:47] <tqh> yes, ask someone who knows :)[18:24:51] <tigerdog> LOL[18:25:25] *** luroh has joined #haiku[18:25:28] <tigerdog> tqh: just for fun, I'll uncomment this code, build and see if I get a useable Firefox.[18:25:46] <tqh> switch the XP_HAIKU to HAVE_SOCKETPAIR as well[18:26:33] <tqh> btw, I think the HAVE_SOCKETPAIR is set in configure by the beos checks, need to look[18:33:41] <tigerdog> tqh: building now...[18:33:54] <tqh> tigerdog, don't think it should be used afaict[18:34:11] <tigerdog> hmm.[18:34:39] <tigerdog> tqh: so HAVE_SOCKETPAIR is not set?[18:35:43] <tqh> I can't find where at least. check mozilla-config.h in your build dir.[18:37:00] <tigerdog> ok.[18:37:20] <DeadYak> tqh: afaik zeta does not have socketpair[18:37:23] <tigerdog> tqh: code is definitely different below the commented code, too.[18:37:55] <tigerdog> tqh: compared to old version. (be patient, I'm an old slow dog reading this stuff...)[18:38:28] <tqh> tigerdog, well it is a 279k patch :)[18:38:58] <tigerdog> old version had #endif after commented code, then went on to implement PR_NewTCPSocketPair[18:39:44] <tigerdog> new version has "#else" after commented code and only implements PR_NewTCPSocketPair if "HAVE_SOCKETPAIR" is not defined.[18:40:18] <tigerdog> tqh: and yes, it's a very large and complicated patch. I'm surprised I can even apply/build it, given my limited skills.[18:41:40] <tqh> tigerdog, I need to look at my old btio.c. One moment.[18:42:04] <tigerdog> tqh: ok. I can send you the old version I have here, if you need it.[18:42:28] <tqh> I take it from the bug.[18:43:26] *** AndrevS has joined #haiku[18:43:30] <tqh> ah, wow, we really used socketpairs :)[18:43:43] <tqh> hold on a moment.[18:44:56] *** vmlemon_ has joined #haiku[18:50:12] *** PulkoMandy has joined #haiku[18:50:12] *** Monni has left #Haiku[18:50:32] <tigerdog> tqh: as best as I can see "HAVE_SOCKETPAIRS" is not defined, though I'm not 100% sure where to look. a quick TrackerGrep didn't find it in any of the files in the build directory[18:51:05] <tqh> sending new btio.c in 2 mins.[18:53:03] <tqh> sent[18:53:20] <tqh> brings back socketpair and uses it :)[18:53:44] <tqh> also I couldn't help but optimize haiku code a bit. I need to do a build myself :)[18:57:55] *** petterhj- has joined #haiku[18:59:14] <tigerdog> tqh: ok, got it. cancelling build and starting over with new btio.c[19:02:02] <tqh> tigerdog, I also have some nice optimizations for widget[19:02:30] <tigerdog> tqh: sounds interesting.[19:03:00] <tqh> but don't have them in patch form, they overlap with some other changes atm.[19:03:22] <tigerdog> tqh: I wondered about the overlap. I know that's been an area of ongoing discussion and development.[19:04:06] <tqh> the overlap? It's the port creation code.[19:04:14] *** Monni has joined #Haiku[19:04:46] <tigerdog> tqh: isn't this an area we've wondered about as a possible cause of our intermittant hangs? or am I thinking of something else?[19:05:16] * tigerdog sees build has finished with nspr and is on to xpcom[19:05:35] <tqh> ports or socketpairs are pretty good guess :)[19:06:46] <tqh> but I don't seem to get those hangs[19:07:46] <tqh> also the sockaddr_in size and the mozilla equivalent has probably mismatched since r4.5. It's fixed in the nspr you build now though.[19:08:24] <tigerdog> tqh: I know - seems to impact some people more than others. since it seems to involve thread synchronization, it may be dependent on hardware speed or single versus multi-processor.[19:08:57] <tigerdog> tqh: was it fixed in the older version of your nspr?[19:08:58] <tqh> probably people that havn't installed the third party pipe code in BeOS.[19:09:56] <tigerdog> tqh: I don't think I'm familiar with the 3rd party pipe code. where did it come from and how does it get installed?[19:11:13] <tigerdog> tqh: I don't think I've ever talked with anyone about that being a variable.[19:11:30] <tigerdog> tqh: variable in the possible causes of the hang, that is.[19:11:57] * tigerdog sees build is now in netwerk[19:11:59] <tqh> where is pipefs? It was at haiku-os.org before iirc[19:15:19] <tqh> tigerdog, can't find it.[19:16:13] *** vmlemon_ has quit IRC[19:16:40] <tigerdog> tqh: ah. you know, I have that installed as part of the SVN install[19:16:48] <tigerdog> and I still get hangs![19:17:22] <tqh> ah[19:17:25] *** Duggan has joined #haiku[19:17:39] <Duggan> greetings all[19:22:54] <tigerdog> tqh: does this at least rule out system pipe code as a contributor?[19:22:56] <CIA-60> rudolfc * r28356 /haiku/trunk/src/add-ons/kernel/drivers/audio/ac97/es1370/es1370.c: es1370 compiles on haiku now. no functional change.[19:23:34] <tqh> tigerdog, makes it less likely at least[19:24:08] <tigerdog> tqh: I still wonder about semaphore code.[19:25:05] *** [mark] has quit IRC[19:25:09] <tqh> semaphore is probably fine. The original nspr has a problem with condvars though, returning an error code in one case where it should return OK[19:25:22] <tigerdog> tqh: when Firefox hangs, I often find one process waiting on a sem with no name.[19:25:40] *** erikl has quit IRC[19:25:49] *** Rakhun has joined #haiku[19:26:11] <tigerdog> tqh: that seems odd to me. I've looked at the code but can't find anyplace where we call create_sem without assigning a semaphore name.[19:28:48] *** idefix_xifedi has quit IRC[19:29:25] *** vmlemon_ has joined #haiku[19:31:17] <tqh> hmm, isn't there helper programs to pull team info and such in BeOS?[19:31:43] <tigerdog> tqh: bdb shows some of this info.[19:31:47] <DeadYak> why pull team info?[19:31:52] <DeadYak> there's a syscall for that[19:32:15] <tqh> DeadYak, see owner[19:32:39] <Duggan> ok, so I got a pre-alpha image now and it works fine and all, but jam is giving me hell.... will I EVER be able to compile from source? :([19:32:48] <tqh> let me rephrase team info for the semaphore.[19:33:25] <DeadYak> tqh: owner?[19:33:29] <DeadYak> ah.[19:33:54] <tqh> DeadYak, The team_id of the semaphore's owner[19:34:36] <tqh> anyway, 10-15 min Haiku testing. back in a while.[19:34:46] *** tqh has quit IRC[19:34:56] *** vmlemon_ has quit IRC[19:37:17] <Duggan> anybody else's jam not know how to make crtbegin.o, libgcc.a, or crtend.o?[19:37:21] *** vmlemon_ has joined #haiku[19:39:45] <tigerdog> different subject than firefox:[19:40:06] <DeadYak> I had that problem until I reran configure after updating compilers[19:40:19] <Duggan> ah ok thanx[19:40:30] <Duggan> I might've forgot that part lol[19:40:40] <tigerdog> somehow, I am not able to run yesterday's pre-alpha without checking "use save mode video" during startup. anyone else having video troubles?[19:40:56] <DeadYak> not me[19:41:02] <Duggan> I have video troubles but thats when I run native[19:41:10] <Duggan> running in vm lately[19:41:13] *** tqh has joined #haiku[19:41:21] *** Stefan100 has quit IRC[19:41:23] <Duggan> wb tqh[19:41:32] <tigerdog> I always run native. real men use real hardware... ;-)[19:41:44] <Duggan> yeah but you also haven't had the troubles I've had[19:41:58] <Duggan> I've been trying to compile the source over a year now and I have yet to be successful[19:42:00] <tigerdog> just kidding, Duggan.[19:42:01] <tqh> thx :)[19:42:07] <Duggan> np tqh[19:42:12] <tigerdog> tqh: build almost done[19:42:39] *** Stefan100 has joined #haiku[19:42:44] <Duggan> all I wanna do is be an asset to the project, the fact I'm a senior CS major doesn't help the ego, considering how much I've failed lol[19:43:10] <tqh> tigerdog, good, I think you'll like it if it works :)[19:43:53] <tqh> Duggan, were you the one who had Mac OS and had some very weird problem?[19:44:06] <tigerdog> I've been using the older version, laid over NSPR4.6.8RTM, in my personal builds for over a year.[19:44:15] <tigerdog> I'd like to see this get committed to branch and trunk.[19:44:23] <Duggan> no mac, no[19:44:40] <Duggan> I've had a computer with a million bad NICs[19:44:47] <Duggan> then too little ram (before paging)[19:44:50] <tqh> Duggan ah[19:45:22] <Duggan> and now I've got 2 partitions of Haiku on this laptop and its suffering from some interesting bugs[19:45:51] <Duggan> the lack of a wireless stack kinda sucks too considering the school I attend kinda doesn't have a wired network...[19:46:00] *** vmlemon_ has quit IRC[19:46:15] <tqh> yes wireless is high up on my list as well.[19:46:33] <Duggan> I'd TRY to help work in it of I could compile it :| lol[19:46:49] <Duggan> oh, and this laptop has an rtl8101e....[19:47:07] <Duggan> the driver is insanely unstable, but at least there's a driver now[19:47:30] <tqh> are you trying to compile from Haiku?[19:47:39] <Duggan> yep[19:47:43] <Duggan> tried it from windows, no dice[19:47:43] <tqh> Optimist :)[19:47:48] <Duggan> cygwin sucks[19:48:00] <DeadYak> tqh: compiling from Haiku works on my box :)[19:48:07] <tqh> another optimist :)[19:48:11] <Duggan> lol[19:48:18] <DeadYak> how is that being an optimist?[19:48:22] <DeadYak> it's worked for months now[19:48:30] *** vmlemon_ has joined #haiku[19:48:56] <tqh> yes, but for doing real work it's kind of optimistic[19:49:12] *** leszek has joined #haiku[19:49:30] <leszek> re[19:49:57] <tigerdog> tqh: good news - seems to run OK in initial testing.[19:49:58] <Duggan> well, no wireless, wired NIC driver doesn't work, video driver doesn't work, KDL on startup....[19:50:18] <Duggan> I have to deal with all that when running native on this machine[19:50:53] <DeadYak> tqh: O[19:50:54] <DeadYak> err[19:51:00] <DeadYak> I've done commits from Haiku before :)[19:51:22] <tigerdog> DeadYak: do I understand you're building Haiku on Haiku?[19:52:09] <DeadYak> yes.[19:52:10] <tqh> DeadYak, still it's way to early to move all my patches over to Haiku..[19:52:25] <DeadYak> tqh: yeah, I'd probably wait until that last disk corruption bug's solved on that[19:52:31] <DeadYak> though I haven't yet run into that one myself[19:52:42] <tqh> that you know of.[19:53:08] <DeadYak> tqh: given that the main thing taking up space right now is the Haiku source tree, I'd think I'd notice a file failing to compile somewhere[19:53:21] <DeadYak> compilers aren't too happy when fed random garbage :)[19:54:00] <Duggan> I'm trying to build haiku on haiku[19:54:34] <Duggan> because thats just about my last choice lol[19:54:43] <tqh> DeadYak, ah[19:55:17] <tqh> working without network isn't a choice either.[19:55:37] <Duggan> that leaves me with running haiku in vm, thats it[19:56:00] <tqh> wonder if Ithamar looked at bug 1050[19:56:27] <tqh> Duggan, if you don't use linux and build from there.[19:56:30] *** idefix_xifedi has joined #haiku[19:56:36] *** pyCube has quit IRC[19:57:19] <Duggan> tqh, no linux, no chance for linux here either, not at the moment anyway[19:57:54] <Duggan> well, maybe I could find room for it on this laptop...[19:59:43] <Duggan> whats the path for the cross tools (or: how do I run configure) on the pre-alpha builds?[20:00:27] <tqh> I wrote a very short summary at the beginning here: http://wiki.bebits.com/page/CrosscompilingFirefox[20:00:58] <DeadYak> Duggan: ./configure, no need to build cross tools on Haiku[20:01:14] <DeadYak> I'd probably suggest ./configure --use-gcc-pipe if you have a decent amount of RAM though[20:01:55] <Duggan> DeadYak ok cool, thanks[20:02:05] <Duggan> its in vm so I guess thats a yes lol[20:02:31] <DeadYak> it's a VM, but how much RAM are you allocating to that VM?[20:03:25] <Duggan> ah crap, not enough.... thought it had alot more by default[20:05:23] <Duggan> how much would you suggest?[20:05:30] <Duggan> 1g?[20:06:02] <DeadYak> if you have that much, sure[20:06:11] <tqh> tigerdog, working fine?[20:06:12] <Duggan> alright, cool, thanks[20:06:45] <Duggan> gonna run for a minute... class is over, gonna run to the library to do more work on this[20:06:48] <tigerdog> tqh: so far, yes! been beating on it - lots of open tabs, etc.[20:07:21] <vmlemon_> Out of interest, is support for Bluetooth and USB CDC Modem/Ethernet devices available on Haiku yet?[20:07:58] <DeadYak> Bluetooth, partly, dunno about USB[20:08:02] <DeadYak> err USB CDC[20:08:07] <tqh> bluetooth: http://urnenfeld.blogspot.com/[20:08:24] <DeadYak> though mmlr uses a cell phone tethered via USB for his net link via the usb_ecm module, so that might work already[20:08:38] <tigerdog> tqh: would it help if I sent a cvs diff of all the changes in one easy-to-apply file?[20:09:07] <tqh> tigerdog, what changes? The include?[20:09:20] <tigerdog> yep, that's the one.[20:09:37] <tigerdog> I should also build/test under BONE and R5 before we get too happy.[20:09:50] <tqh> already fixed in my tree now, so it is ready for next patch[20:11:03] <tigerdog> ok, cool![20:15:49] <vmlemon_> DeadYak: Sounds like it should work, if that's the case[20:16:26] <vmlemon_> (CDC being "Communications Device Class" in USB terms)[20:19:24] *** korli has joined #haiku[20:19:24] *** ChanServ sets mode: +o korli[20:19:36] *** tqh has quit IRC[20:23:03] *** adb_ has joined #haiku[20:27:41] *** Duggan2 has joined #haiku[20:28:14] *** Duggan has quit IRC[20:28:18] *** Duggan2 is now known as Duggan[20:28:40] <Duggan> greetings again...[20:34:06] <CIA-60> korli * r28357 /haiku/trunk/ (6 files in 2 dirs): updated libpng to 1.2.32[20:39:15] *** judgen has quit IRC[20:39:16] *** egion has joined #haiku[20:41:16] *** oco has joined #haiku[20:42:36] *** DaaT has joined #haiku[20:43:41] *** tqh has joined #haiku[20:43:42] *** plfiorini has joined #haiku[20:44:12] * DaaT slaps Begasus[20:44:34] <Begasus> 0_o[20:44:37] <Teknomancer> hi DaaT[20:44:38] <Teknomancer> hi Begasus[20:44:42] <Begasus> did I miss something?? :P[20:44:45] <Begasus> hi Teknomancer ![20:44:49] <DaaT> he Teknomancer[20:44:50] <DaaT> hey[20:45:15] * Begasus smacks DaaT .. you have no right to slap!!! you weren't at BG !!! :P[20:45:37] <Teknomancer> I wasn't at BG either :([20:45:39] <Teknomancer> Begasus: where u there ?[20:45:40] <DaaT> i know i know :'([20:45:57] <Begasus> yep Teknomancer[20:46:01] <Teknomancer> cool[20:46:03] <Teknomancer> how long from .be ?[20:46:11] <Begasus> a bit over an hour[20:46:16] <Begasus> not that far ;)[20:46:19] <Teknomancer> that's not far[20:46:19] <DaaT> lucky bastard[20:46:28] <Teknomancer> i wonder how long from Stuttgart it would be[20:46:28] <Begasus> we drive more to go to the dog shows ;)[20:46:53] <Begasus> http://begasus.blogspot.com/2008/10/begeistert-019-alphaville.html[20:47:02] <Begasus> you need to update Teknomancer ;)[20:47:16] *** PulkoMandy has quit IRC[20:47:34] <Teknomancer> whats that ?[20:47:44] *** BGA has quit IRC[20:47:47] <Begasus> geuss once ... :P[20:47:54] *** korli has quit IRC[20:48:30] <Begasus> http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_yGwQ2Lr9rho/SPm-nPPtpCI/AAAAAAAAAEI/vkQxrQSMn4Q/s1600-h/DSCF8751.JPG[20:48:36] <Begasus> my doggie !!! ;)[20:48:52] *** tigerdog has quit IRC[20:49:12] <tqh> you need to give him food :)[20:49:24] <Teknomancer> cool[20:50:17] <DaaT> great looking dog[20:50:35] <Begasus> lol tqh[20:50:40] <Begasus> thnx ;)[20:50:55] <Begasus> he's doing pretty good in the show section so far[20:51:17] *** MauriceK has joined #haiku[20:51:19] *** Duggan has quit IRC[20:51:24] <Begasus> trying to get someone to see how he performs as working dog next week ...[20:51:25] <DaaT> hi MauriceK[20:51:28] <Begasus> hi MauriceK ![20:51:29] <DeadYak> Huskies are so beautiful[20:51:33] * DeadYak pets MauriceK[20:51:47] <MauriceK> hey ho everyone[20:51:50] <Begasus> yeah they are DeadYak .. and mine specialy !! :P[20:51:58] <DeadYak> :)[20:52:03] <DeadYak> my dog is much much much smaller than that[20:52:13] * DaaT pets DeadYak[20:52:21] * DeadYak pets DaaT[20:52:38] <Begasus> wasn't talking about the smallest dog :P[20:52:47] <Begasus> mine is just cuter!! ^^[20:52:56] <DeadYak> I was just saying[20:53:00] <DeadYak> Begasus: http://www.flickr.com/photos/origami_potato/2950533688/in/set-72157606584887359/ = mine[20:53:02] <Begasus> jk ;)[20:53:20] <Teknomancer> i decided to stop having pets because i came to the conclusion they would die before me.[20:53:30] <DeadYak> Teknomancer: parrots![20:53:33] <DaaT> DeadYak, cute[20:53:34] <CIA-60> mauricek * r28358 /haiku/trunk/src/kits/game/FileGameSound.cpp: whitespace and style cleanup, no functional changes[20:53:37] <DaaT> linky? *g*[20:53:43] *** petterhj3 has joined #haiku[20:53:46] <DeadYak> DaaT: Nina named him, she's had him since he was a puppy[20:53:52] <Teknomancer> and no fragile birds and tortoises are not worthy as pets ;)[20:53:54] <DaaT> or giant turtles![20:53:59] <DaaT> DeadYak, cool[20:54:14] <DeadYak> Teknomancer: fragile? my parents have an african grey that's somewhere around 25 years old at this point[20:54:16] <Begasus> http://www.flickr.com/photos/origami_potato/ that's you DeadYak ?[20:54:18] <DaaT> Teknomancer, don't say that. You could ride a giant turtle to work[20:54:30] <DeadYak> Begasus: that's my girlfriend's flickr account[20:54:37] <Begasus> ah k ;)[20:54:41] <Begasus> shitzu?[20:54:45] <DeadYak> http://www.flickr.com/photos/origami_potato/2952847149/ - that's me though[20:54:46] <DeadYak> and yes[20:54:50] <Teknomancer> DeadYak: my fragile i mean u can't really play with it like u do with a cat .. u'll probably break its wing or something[20:55:02] <DeadYak> Teknomancer: oh[20:55:03] <Teknomancer> my=by[20:55:32] *** leszek has quit IRC[20:55:36] <Begasus> hehe[20:56:54] <Begasus> you look almost as old as me DeadYak ! :P[20:57:10] <DaaT> he does not!![20:57:20] <Begasus> rofl[20:57:31] *** tigerdog has joined #haiku[20:57:38] <DaaT> hey tigerdog[20:57:48] <tigerdog> hello DaaT[20:57:53] <DaaT> cooking time, bbiab[20:58:16] <Begasus> at this hour?![20:58:19] <Begasus> tss ..[20:58:29] <Begasus> hi tigerdog ;)[20:58:33] * DaaT slaps Begasus and goes to cook[20:58:38] <Begasus> :P[20:59:03] <tigerdog> tqh: seems quite stable and quick. Other than what appeared to be running against the well know resource limit (with 40 tabs open and vlc as a child process, hanging Zeta) I haven't been able to break it.[20:59:09] <tigerdog> hello Begasus[20:59:32] <tqh> tigerdog, I'm not fixing that.[20:59:47] <DeadYak> tqh: haha[21:00:00] <tigerdog> tqh: I understand completely. it's already fixed, in Haiku! :)[21:00:29] <tigerdog> tqh: seems like a good bit of code to me.[21:00:35] *** hUMUNUGUs has joined #haiku[21:00:48] <tigerdog> tqh: seems very snappy. did you make changes to improve performance?[21:00:50] *** Duggan has joined #haiku[21:01:08] <tigerdog> or is it just wishful thinking and/or comparison to how slow things are under Ubuntu[21:02:38] <tqh> tigerdog, it should be faster, better, lighter and lesser calories.[21:04:16] <tigerdog> it definitely seems faster to me. for example, I go from startup to google (home screen) in under 3 seconds. Athlon64x2 4200+ (2250MHz)[21:04:33] <tigerdog> seems about 20% faster (used to take just over 3 sec)[21:06:11] *** petterhj- has quit IRC[21:06:24] <tqh> yes it's nice[21:07:26] *** Duggan2 has joined #haiku[21:09:04] *** korli has joined #haiku[21:09:04] *** ChanServ sets mode: +o korli[21:12:07] *** Duggan has quit IRC[21:12:12] *** Duggan2 is now known as Duggan[21:16:54] <AlienSoldier> Begasus will you port this one? enjoying powermanga a lot[21:17:03] <AlienSoldier> http://linux.tlk.fr/games/TecnoballZ/[21:17:58] <Begasus> hmm .. think I've looked into this one earlier AlienSoldier[21:18:18] <Begasus> think there were some probs that I need to look into ...[21:18:32] <AlienSoldier> ok[21:19:06] <AlienSoldier> i did not initially love powermanga, but it have really distinctive attribute other shump don't posses[21:19:11] <AlienSoldier> *possess[21:19:37] <Duggan> shump or shmup?[21:20:00] <AlienSoldier> shmup[21:20:21] <Duggan> <- prefers the more descriptive terms "v-shooter" "h-shooter"[21:20:32] <Duggan> h = lose, v = win[21:20:42] <Begasus> I must say I was pleasantly supprised by powermanga AlienSoldier[21:21:06] <Begasus> didn't think it would be as a nice shooter as it turned out to be ;)[21:21:24] <AlienSoldier> only gripe so far is the full screen more is not all that, kobo deluxe is stunning in the fullscreen department option[21:21:29] <AlienSoldier> *mode[21:21:42] <DeadYak> I don't really have a preference for horizontal vs vertical here[21:21:48] <DeadYak> especially since a bunch of those shooters mix modes[21:21:49] <Begasus> you can always run it in window mode AlienSoldier[21:22:12] <Begasus> just start it in a Terminal with "./powermanga --window" IIRC[21:22:21] * tqh remembers the good old days of uridium[21:22:54] <Duggan> I just never got into horizontal shooters, just never were my type[21:23:37] <AlienSoldier> usually the advantage of vertical is possible interaction with the environment, in vertical one it's more tricky to acheve. thunderblade vertical level were a great way to acheive that.[21:24:10] <DeadYak> there was an old old one I played on the genesis where half the levels were horizontal and the other were vertical[21:24:13] <Duggan> raiden or whatever the hell the name of it was was pretty good at it[21:24:14] <DeadYak> what was it...[21:24:15] <AlienSoldier> tqh saw a great PS3 or Xbox downloadable utidium look alike the other day[21:24:17] <DeadYak> Thunderforce 3 I think?[21:24:21] <AlienSoldier> *uridium[21:24:33] <Duggan> I cant say I've ever seen any h-shooters that really interacted with the environment[21:24:40] <DeadYak> define interacted[21:24:49] <Begasus> ps .. powermanga isn't as vertical as one would beleive ;)[21:25:05] <Begasus> it works also in horizontal way ..[21:25:15] <AlienSoldier> thunder force 3 is all horizontal i think[21:25:25] <Duggan> DeadYak my take on it is like, if you drop a bomb or blow something big up, how it may physically change the environment (or at least the appearance of it)[21:25:56] <Duggan> like catching a nearby building on fire or leaving crater marks[21:26:24] <DeadYak> ah[21:26:36] <AlienSoldier> interacting for me was a montain kill you if you hit it[21:26:40] <DeadYak> AlienSoldier: I could swear it had some vertical levels as well, maybe Thunderforce 2?[21:26:55] <AlienSoldier> thunder force 2 have multidirectional level i think[21:27:05] <Duggan> AlienSoldier thats the difference in mentality between v/h-shooter players hehe[21:27:08] <cnuke> someone should WAIT_MYPGRP to headers/posix/sys/wait.h[21:27:11] <cnuke> +add[21:27:13] *** petterhj3 has quit IRC[21:27:22] <Duggan> AlienSoldier theres plenty of interactivity like that in v-shooters[21:27:25] <AlienSoldier> there is also some vertical/horizontal hybrid like eliminate down (one of my favorite on genesis)[21:27:34] <DeadYak> AlienSoldier: might be 2 I'm thinking of then[21:27:51] <DeadYak> Ikaruga had more or less no env interaction though[21:28:36] <tqh> IMO the best shooter is starfox, but it's not 2d[21:29:01] <Duggan> 2d/3d doesn't matter so much[21:29:16] <DeadYak> it does from a gameplay standpoint :) very different mechanics[21:29:25] <Duggan> starfox was semi-v-shooter/semi-simulation[21:30:00] <Duggan> DeadYak not true, there are plenty of games now that are strictly 3D but adhere entirely to the v-shooter style[21:30:17] <Duggan> the question is whether the particular game is a v-shooter (or h-shooter) or not[21:30:30] <DeadYak> Duggan: if you have 6 degrees of freedom, it's not a v-shooter[21:30:40] *** Barrett666 has quit IRC[21:30:47] <Duggan> DeadYak: zaxxon[21:31:21] *** Animal-X has quit IRC[21:31:25] *** Barrett666 has joined #haiku[21:31:26] <Duggan> of course it was iso and neither v nor h, but the concept remains[21:31:29] *** Teknomancer has left #haiku[21:31:55] <Duggan> anyway I have to run...[21:32:03] <Duggan> ... always when I get in a good conversation... dammit[21:32:33] <Duggan> l8r all[21:32:35] *** Duggan has left #haiku[21:33:58] <AlienSoldier> tqh you know there is a starfox2 for SNES?[21:34:56] <tqh> AlienSoldier, yes, I know, but it's not as good. Have it on my wii though.[21:35:37] <AlienSoldier> my favorite SNES shump is european version of super aleste[21:36:09] <tqh> never heard of it.[21:40:22] <DaaT> re[21:41:20] *** mmu_man has joined #haiku[21:41:20] *** ChanServ sets mode: +o mmu_man[21:41:25] * DeadYak plops mmu_man[21:41:44] * DaaT prods mmu_man[21:46:54] <plfiorini> DaaT, plop[21:47:26] <DaaT> hey plfiorini :)[21:52:54] <AlienSoldier> tqh also called Space Megaforce[21:54:13] <mmu_man> plop[21:54:27] <AlienSoldier> http://shmups.classicgaming.gamespy.com/reviews/superaleste/index.html[21:54:32] * mmu_man sends sheeps towards DaaT[21:55:13] <tigerdog> tqh: I'm going to disappear now and try to build for R5 and BONE.[21:55:31] <tigerdog> if I have trouble, I'll let you know.[21:55:54] * tigerdog woofs goodbye at everyone[21:56:00] * DeadYak pets tigerdog[21:56:02] *** tigerdog has quit IRC[21:56:14] * mmu_man pours honey on DaaT[21:56:51] <DaaT> w00t[21:56:52] <mmu_man> enjoy[21:56:58] <DaaT> sheeps and honey![21:58:26] <Begasus> rofl[22:01:08] <DeadYak> kinky[22:01:42] <DaaT> you know me so well[22:01:43] <DaaT> :P[22:02:09] <mmu_man> of course, I have the logs :p[22:02:33] *** dr_evil has joined #haiku[22:02:33] * DaaT whistles[22:07:39] <ari2-free> I have the bees[22:08:01] * Begasus smacks the bees[22:08:13] *** vmlemon_ has quit IRC[22:08:17] <ari2-free> great now you made them excited[22:08:43] * Begasus points the quen to DaaT !! ...[22:08:53] <Begasus> hmm bad English ... :s[22:08:58] <ari2-free> good thing I don't have honey all over my face unlike some people[22:09:05] <Begasus> LOL[22:09:22] <Begasus> don't be mistaken by what you read ...[22:09:58] * plfiorini is proud of the new look -> http://www.osdrawer.net/[22:11:33] <mmu_man> nice[22:12:08] <Begasus> http://dev.osdrawer.net/ that's even nicer !!![22:12:31] *** DeadYak has quit IRC[22:12:37] <plfiorini> thanks :)[22:13:08] *** AlexForster has joined #haiku[22:14:05] *** tqh has quit IRC[22:14:07] *** Nies has joined #haiku[22:16:36] *** plfiorini has quit IRC[22:16:50] *** plfiorini has joined #haiku[22:23:10] *** Duggan has joined #haiku[22:24:57] <Duggan> greetings all[22:25:25] <Begasus> hi Duggan[22:29:06] <Duggan> hey begasus[22:34:58] *** vmlemon_ has joined #haiku[22:35:35] *** Duggan2 has joined #haiku[22:36:33] *** Master199 has joined #haiku[22:39:17] *** Nies has quit IRC[22:39:17] *** dr_evil has quit IRC[22:39:17] *** petterhj has quit IRC[22:39:17] *** tolimanB has quit IRC[22:39:22] *** Andrius has quit IRC[22:39:22] *** Duggan has quit IRC[22:39:22] *** egion has quit IRC[22:39:22] *** adb_ has quit IRC[22:39:22] *** luroh has quit IRC[22:39:22] *** MindChild has quit IRC[22:39:23] *** flssrswkgd has quit IRC[22:39:23] *** rkbm has quit IRC[22:39:23] *** geist has quit IRC[22:39:30] *** Nies has joined #haiku[22:39:30] *** dr_evil has joined #haiku[22:39:30] *** petterhj has joined #haiku[22:39:30] *** tolimanB has joined #haiku[22:40:10] *** Duggan2 is now known as Duggan[22:40:40] *** geist has joined #haiku[22:40:40] *** ChanServ sets mode: +o geist[22:40:45] *** rkbm has joined #haiku[22:41:09] *** wildur_ has quit IRC[22:43:05] *** judgen has joined #haiku[22:43:40] *** MindChild has joined #haiku[22:44:34] *** egion has joined #haiku[22:44:34] *** adb_ has joined #haiku[22:44:34] *** luroh has joined #haiku[22:44:34] *** Andrius has joined #haiku[22:44:34] *** flssrswkgd has joined #haiku[22:44:53] *** Andrius[] has joined #haiku[22:45:29] *** egion has quit IRC[22:46:58] *** hUMUNGUs has quit IRC[22:49:21] *** digitalteufel has joined #haiku[22:49:36] *** digitalteufel has quit IRC[22:50:11] *** hUMUNUGUs has quit IRC[22:51:09] *** hUMUNGUs has joined #haiku[22:51:52] *** hUMUNGUs has quit IRC[22:55:10] *** Andrius has quit IRC[23:03:26] *** VinDuv|Haiku has quit IRC[23:04:24] <CIA-60> korli * r28359 /haiku/trunk/src/preferences/sounds/ (6 files): Use a ColumnListView[23:04:45] <Duggan> if I only knew something about driver development :([23:05:13] <thotypous> you don't need to know anything, just use wikipedia & google ;)[23:05:28] <Duggan> lol[23:05:44] <Duggan> at some point, sure...[23:05:46] *** boh666 has joined #haiku[23:06:03] <Duggan> I've got issues with the rtl81xx driver as well as the intel_extreme driver[23:06:18] *** korli has quit IRC[23:06:34] *** Andrius[] is now known as Andrius[23:07:06] <thotypous> a good start point: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hardware_interrupt & http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_memory_access[23:07:08] <boh666> hello, the networking in haiku is kernel space or is in userspace ?[23:07:37] <AlienSoldier> kernel[23:07:58] <Duggan> thanx thotypous, I'll see what I can find from that[23:08:12] <thotypous> :D[23:08:21] <boh666> the old beos R5 networking was in userspace ?[23:08:47] <AlienSoldier> R5 yes, but a modification called BONE allowed kernet networking in R5 also[23:09:10] <AlienSoldier> the user space implementation was called "net server"[23:09:19] <boh666> why this choice ?[23:09:39] <AlienSoldier> kernel is faster, userland is more flexible[23:10:03] <thotypous> tanenbaum says there is no performance difference :P[23:10:35] <replaced> :P[23:10:52] <boh666> the problem was only the speed. but the risk of such a big and complicated chunk of code living in kernel is not a drawback ?[23:13:06] <Duggan> R5's networking was awesome however they did it.... wasn't slow for me lol[23:13:12] <AlienSoldier> yes, but: it's not something that is changed often, it's not something based around that much expiremental code, i think it highly inspired by BSD code[23:15:14] *** MauriceK has quit IRC[23:15:38] *** hdanak has joined #haiku[23:15:41] <boh666> last question. is the networking code implemented as a module you can load and unload or hardlinked in the kernel. the protocol ipv4 arp are implemented inside the networking kit or as plugin of the networking kit.[23:17:40] <AlienSoldier> can't comment on that as i'm not sure, but kernel have add-on also, so i would risk a yes it's module, but don't think my word for it[23:17:56] <AlienSoldier> *take[23:19:26] <HeTo> boh666: I'd go for a module as well, but if you have Haiku installed, you can go peeking around /boot/beos/system/add-ons/kernel/net (or a similar location) and see what you can find[23:20:16] <boh666> HeTo: thanks[23:20:24] <boh666> AlienSoldier: thanks[23:20:34] *** dr_evil has quit IRC[23:20:47] <AlienSoldier> boh666 at one point i think a userland networking was coded also for debugging purpose, so who know if this is still around/usable[23:27:41] *** idefix_xifedi has left #haiku[23:31:20] *** oco has quit IRC[23:31:21] *** mmadia has joined #haiku[23:31:35] *** Barrett666 has quit IRC[23:31:39] *** boh666 has quit IRC[23:33:00] *** paul0 has joined #haiku[23:39:19] *** tigerdog has joined #haiku[23:39:38] *** vmlemon_ has quit IRC[23:39:44] <CIA-60> julun * r28360 /haiku/trunk/src/preferences/sounds/HWindow.cpp: * fix the build[23:42:22] <mmadia> hi tigerdog[23:42:23] *** Ingenu has quit IRC[23:42:35] <tigerdog> hello mmadia![23:43:00] <tigerdog> mmadia: I've been working today to put the finishing touches on tqh's nspr clean-up[23:43:10] <tigerdog> mmadia: I think we have a winner.[23:43:19] <mmadia> yeah, i've been receiving some of the bugzilla emails[23:43:26] <tigerdog> Anyone here currently running R5/netserver?[23:43:53] <mmadia> it *might* be working on my other box...[23:44:07] <tigerdog> mmadia: I just finished a build on R5. seems to work well but I don't have a netserver-capable NIC so I could only test by loading files[23:44:28] <tigerdog> would you like a copy of the net-server experiment?[23:44:37] <mmadia> lemme unzip a net_server installation.[23:44:40] <Begasus> link it ;)[23:44:52] <tigerdog> ok everyone, just a sec.[23:44:56] <Begasus> I still have an R5 install on my pd tigerdog[23:45:04] *** AnEvilYak has joined #haiku[23:45:16] <Begasus> probly wont be checking out tonight though ;)[23:45:30] *** Sikosis has joined #haiku[23:45:30] *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Sikosis[23:47:37] *** mmadia42 has joined #haiku[23:47:38] <tigerdog> uploading now.[23:47:44] <tigerdog> will link momentarily[23:48:21] <mmadia42> net_server up and running[23:49:36] <tigerdog> http://sheltonfamily.org/firefox_test/firefox-2.0.0.18pre.en-US.BeOS-net_server_experimentalNSPR.zip[23:49:53] <mmadia42> is it re-ordered?[23:50:09] <tigerdog> nope. you'll have to point and click and do that yourself[23:50:24] <AlienSoldier> remind me what NSPR is[23:50:33] <AnEvilYak> NS Portable Runtime[23:50:35] <tigerdog> NetScapePortableRuntime[23:50:41] <AnEvilYak> aka the cross platform framework that Moz's projects run on[23:50:44] <AnEvilYak> brb[23:50:44] *** AnEvilYak has quit IRC[23:50:45] <tigerdog> it's the compatiblity layer[23:50:48] <AlienSoldier> ok[23:51:09] <tigerdog> basically it underpins everything between firefox and BeOS/Haiku/Zeta[23:51:26] <mmadia> ... always thought it was related to networking[23:51:28] *** N3S has joined #haiku[23:53:46] <tigerdog> it handles very basic primitive things like mapping thread and file locking from Mozilla to the underlying OS. it does also have to do with TCP sockets, but that's as much for interprocess communication as anything.[23:53:58] <tigerdog> at least that's kindof what this old dog has been able to puzzle out.[23:55:05] *** _Malmis has joined #Haiku[23:56:25] *** mmadia42 has quit IRC[23:58:24] <AlienSoldier> that is comming to bebits soon?[23:58:47] <AlienSoldier> i can't seem to find info on the .18 version on firefox site, it's all about 3.0[23:59:25] *** Begasus has quit IRC