[00:00:45] <desidaerius504> when I install the replacement, will I still be able to run the mail daemon by clicking the mailbox in the Be menu?
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[00:02:08] <slaad> These static builds of Firefox are snappy. It's a pity the "Plastikfox Crystal SVG" theme doesn't work with it :(
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[00:26:41] <NathanW> hi BGA
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[00:27:54] <desidaerius504> NathanW: Thank you very much for your help earlier. It looks like the issue is solved :-) I appreciate it very much!
[00:28:02] <NathanW> great
[00:28:21] <NathanW> oh, and to answer your earlier question, the new mail daemon works more or less like the old one
[00:28:27] <NathanW> In terms of interface
[00:28:35] <desidaerius504> sweet!
[00:28:40] 
[00:29:07] <desidaerius504> I love the BeOS desktop (especially the mailbox icon in the Be Menu) more than any other desktop environment I've used, even KDE
[00:29:40] <desidaerius504> want a gmail invite? (or twenty?):-p
[00:29:52] <NathanW> I could ask you the same question :)
[00:30:13] <desidaerius504> lol!
[00:30:34] <NathanW> I'm going to post an update shortly to the net_server version (i.e. R5.0.3) of MDR that lets you get your GMail in BeOS using the mail_daemon
[00:30:38] <desidaerius504> idaerius504>	i cant even beg someone tot ake them! Used to be people would have given me their firstborn for an invite...
[00:30:44] <NathanW> yeah
[00:30:55] <NathanW> you could give them to the invite spooler
[00:31:08] <NathanW> http://www.isnoop.net/gmail-o-matic.php
[00:31:14] <desidaerius504> i'll see if I can dump them off on my inlaws :-p
[00:31:22] <NathanW> haha
[00:31:31] <NathanW> http://isnoop.net/gmail/
[00:31:33] <NathanW> rather
[00:31:51] <NathanW> you'll note, however, that they have plenty
[00:31:57] <desidaerius504> idaerius504>	i have a bad feeling gmail is just going to turn into another YahooMail (300 pieces of spam and 1 legitimate email in your inbox nightly( fiasco...
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[00:49:24] <NathanW> gaaaaaaaa
[00:49:27] <NathanW> stupid debian
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[00:50:54] <NathanW> )(#&R(YF(&SD^G(_*&#)&T(_&G(*F
[00:51:59] <slaad> Heh, heh, heh.
[00:53:29] <desidaerius504> ?
[00:55:52] <NathanW> I'm trying to set up ircd-hybrid
[00:56:05] <NathanW> And the blasted package manager won't install the config templates in /etc
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[01:01:20] <NathanW> Yes!
[01:01:24] <NathanW> I am amazing
[01:01:32] <NathanW> stupid debian
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[01:26:11] <@BGA> NathanW?
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[02:25:18] <MikeW> NathanW: is your mail replacement scriptable?
[02:25:44] <NathanW> MikeW: somewhat
[02:26:15] <NathanW> you can use 'hey' to do various things
[02:26:26] <NathanW> I haven't put any special effort into scriptability though
[02:26:26] <@BGA> NathanW: http://200.216.40.97/Carro
[02:26:27] <@BGA> :)
[02:27:20] <MikeW> Just wondering about the beos mail folders. inbox for example. Is that just a standard folder that contains plaintext files that is the raw email?
[02:27:29] <MikeW> or a mail application made to look like a folder
[02:28:43] <@BGA> MikeW: It is a folder.
[02:28:45] <NathanW> the first
[02:28:47] <@BGA> Standard one.
[02:29:15] <geist> which is one thing I've always liked about that. the full original mail is always available
[02:29:26] <geist> doesn't munge the data in any way
[02:29:34] <MikeW> ah thats perfect
[02:29:58] <MikeW> I wonder if portable.net can run lumisofts c# imap server
[02:30:03] <@BGA> Gotta sleep. See ya all!
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[02:30:10] <NathanW> yeah, geist
[02:30:20] <MikeW> because what im now doing is running a local IMAP server, which saves its emails as plaintext files in a directory
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[02:31:00] <MikeW> and I want to pull in all my emails from their incompatable email applications, copy them into the imap folder and have the plaintext emails for safety
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[02:31:46] <MikeW> and not worry about mail app lockin. But I really should have the imap server hosted remotely on a shell or something
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[02:33:57] <geist> yeah i'm the same way. I always avoid mail lock-in
[02:34:02] <NathanW> yeah
[02:34:12] <NathanW> IMAP is nice for that
[02:34:17] <geist> when I stopped using beos, it was easy to take the original mails and import them back into an imap server
[02:34:37] <geist> and for a while I had one that just used a large mbox, but later moved to Maildir format
[02:34:46] <geist> which is basically a bunch of seperate plaintext files + indexes
[02:36:36] <NathanW> yeah
[02:36:53] <NathanW> It's even easier to do that now, since MDR uploads e-mail you drop into an IMAP folder
[02:37:14] <MikeW> hmm?
[02:37:32] <NathanW> If you have an IMAP mailbox with the Mail Daemon Replacement
[02:37:45] <NathanW> And drop plain text mail files into one of your IMAP folders
[02:37:50] <NathanW> they get uploaded to the server
[02:38:06] <geist> so it basically tries to keep your local copy of the imap dirs always in sync?
[02:38:17] <NathanW> Which means you can do things like have POP3 accounts download into an IMAP directory to mirror them on the server
[02:38:18] <NathanW> right
[02:38:29] <MikeW> really cool
[02:38:34] <NathanW> Although it won't locally delete things deleted off the server
[02:38:35] <MikeW> what about gmail?
[02:38:46] <MikeW> as in, do gmail received emails have full headers?
[02:38:52] <NathanW> yeah
[02:39:19] <MikeW> thats class
[02:40:12] <MikeW> I just wish there was activesync on other oses
[02:40:16] <agentmumu> NathanW: whats the problem with deleting files which were deleted on the server?
[02:41:11] 
[02:47:35] <MikeW> ooooh, interesting
[02:47:50] <MikeW> theres a project called SynCE that can access pocketpc devices
[02:48:22] <MikeW> I wonder could it work on beos (not that theres a decent email client on that platform that could send mail to it anyway)
[02:51:54] <MikeW> hmm, one thing I havn't ordered yet is a sound card
[03:04:24] <slaad> Does anyone know what the units are you get from BMimeType::GetAttrInfo() ?
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[06:34:36] <NathanW> Does anyone know how to wipe a boot manager?
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[07:07:32] <desidaerius504> if you have a win98 disk with fdisk you should be able to reset the entire MBR
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[09:33:28] <@AndrewBachmann> hi voidref geist
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[09:35:21] <@AndrewBachmann> hello AndrewBachmann
[09:35:23] <@AndrewBachmann> AnEvilYak
[09:39:42] <sys2> geist as in poltergeist or however its spelled? .. and if so .. is the voidref to point at the location in the void that gesit comes from and bind him to this world?
[09:39:43] <sys2> :P
[09:40:12] <@AndrewBachmann> I don't know the nature of their relationship, that's none of my business ;-)
[09:41:59] <sys2> this is your time to play, this is your judgement day! we've made a sacrifice and now we get to take your life! we shoot without a gun we'll take on anyone! its realy nothing new its just a thing we like to do!!
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[09:52:37] <@AndrewBachmann> yo mmu_man
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[09:55:32] <@JBurton> hi all
[09:57:56] <@mmu_man> plop
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[09:59:51] <@AndrewBachmann> yo Korli
[10:01:10] <@JBurton> hi Korli
[10:01:35] <@Korli> hey AndrewBachmann JBurton
[10:01:51] <@Korli> it was a long time AndrewBachmann
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[10:02:56] <@Korli> JBurton did you read my mail about BMessages forwards ?
[10:03:00] <@AndrewBachmann> yeah, 4 weeks
[10:03:35] <@JBurton> Korli I'm slowly reading my mails of the week (189 messages on the first mail box) :P
[10:03:47] <@JBurton> I read the forward of DW on the IK list, though
[10:04:06] <@JBurton> I think some of our App kit classes are incomplete/wrong
[10:05:38] <geist> joy
[10:05:44] <@Korli> JBurton please have a look at BMessage::_send_ ...
[10:05:57] <@AndrewBachmann> hi geist the sidekick worked like a charm in china
[10:06:11] <geist> ah good
[10:06:25] <@AndrewBachmann> although somehow my terminal app got borked and I can't change the font from size 12 :-(
[10:06:50] <@JBurton> hi geist
[10:06:57] <@JBurton> Korli oki, I'll do
[10:07:16] <geist> JBurton: I was wondering how you guys are replacing parts of the app_server. are you using the original headers, but reimplementing the .cpp files?
[10:07:41] <geist> ist>	i tried to build the whole haiku system on linux the other day and it's missing all sorts of beos headers
[10:07:48] <@JBurton> geist weird
[10:08:00] <@JBurton> no, actually we're replacing the headers too
[10:08:04] <geist> you guys are rebuilding the headers? good
[10:08:08] <@JBurton> but maybe some headers are missing
[10:08:09] <@Korli> geist only the kernel is buildable on anything else beos
[10:08:13] <@JBurton> ah right
[10:08:18] <geist> yeah I know, but I'm interested in *why*
[10:08:51] <@AndrewBachmann> missing beos headers is weird
[10:09:09] <@Korli> geist maybe you need a cross compiler :p
[10:09:25] <geist> sure, but the cross compiler needs the beos headers to build
[10:09:32] <@JBurton> eheh
[10:09:40] <geist> and therefore you've introduced the dependency
[10:09:59] <@JBurton> but that's weird, you should have the beos headers in /current/headers/os/
[10:10:16] <@JBurton> I don't think there are missing ones
[10:10:17] <@Korli> geist did you try to the cross compiler package from Oliver ?
[10:10:42] <@AndrewBachmann> also geist I've decided the web browser is next to useless
[10:10:53] <geist> no, not at all. I'm sure it'll fail since it's 3.3.5 on ym linux box, but there were definitely some missing headers. I'm trying to rebuild now
[10:11:35] <@Korli> geist there is also a problem with our build system (it includes in disorder system and user headers)
[10:11:51] <geist> yeah, well that's a whole other problem
[10:12:02] <@Korli> maybe
[10:12:03] <geist> IO
[10:12:05] <geist> er
[10:12:31] <geist> I'm a build system purist, and this thing you guys have is totally not the way I'd do it, but hey if it sort of works
[10:12:54] <@JBurton> geist well, that's because we still build some stuff on beos and some on haiku
[10:13:06] <@JBurton> we wouldn't have this mess if we only built stuff on haiku
[10:13:41] <geist> yeah, I suppose that's true
[10:14:03] <geist> well, anyway I finally got a beos machine running again, though I've been having problems with it
[10:14:31] <geist> do you know how to disable the debug_server stuff? ie, if a process crashes, i dont want it to pop up a dialog
[10:14:37] <@Korli> geist you need beos support ? ;)
[10:15:11] <geist> well, I figured if i can run a headless beos machine then maybe I can use it to compile
[10:15:27] <@Korli> did you try to kill the debug_server ?
[10:15:28] <geist> unforunately it pops up dialogs on the screen if anything crashes
[10:15:34] <geist> no I haven't, I should
[10:15:46] <@Korli> because this thing pops up
[10:17:08] <geist> anyway, maybe I'll get some time to hack on stuff this week or so. work has been super busy, and I'm doing almost the same thing there so I kind of use up my brain cycles
[10:17:10] <@JBurton> hmmmm I guess I'll need to finish BMenu classes as soon as possible
[10:17:33] <@JBurton> Korli I see you started to make the input server work on haiku :P
[10:17:43] <@JBurton> I was thinking about that while I was ill (last week)
[10:20:39] <@Korli> JBurton it works well
[10:20:57] <@JBurton> great
[10:21:11] <@Korli> it's just the bash shell appears before input_server finished its start
[10:21:16] <@JBurton> that's a nice milestone :P
[10:21:21] <@Korli> so you have to wait a bit to be able to type
[10:21:32] <@JBurton> eheh
[10:21:41] <@Korli> yeah indeed
[10:21:48] <@JBurton> I see it's disabled, though (or am I wrong) ?
[10:22:37] <@Korli> yeah, axeld thinks it's a bit slow
[10:22:56] <@JBurton> well, on bochs, even typing with the old method is incredibly slow
[10:22:57] <geist> yeah using an input_server and consoled is I'm not sure a great idea, but it was something I wanted to try
[10:23:16] <geist> if anything just to exercise the scheduler and get the system some load
[10:23:23] <@Korli> when you can change the keymap, this would surely be a good idea
[10:23:25] <@JBurton> I can't see why, btw, I'm sure haiku is slower than windows 3.1 on bochs :P
[10:23:32] <@JBurton> Korli yeah, definitely :P
[10:23:35] <geist> of course there is no equivalent on beos
[10:24:03] <geist> well, I have't booted the haiku kernel, but i'm sure it has all of the debugging crap turned on like the newos one by default
[10:24:34] <@Korli> geist you mean serial output ?
[10:24:37] <geist> on a real piece of hardware (bochs is just so lame to benchmark anything with) newos will take about 10 seconds or so to boot with debugging on
[10:24:45] <geist> and a fraction of a section with it turned off
[10:24:52] <geist> yeah, and the piles of assert()s
[10:24:59] <geist> s/section/second
[10:25:09] <@AndrewBachmann> g'night all
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[10:27:22] <@Korli> can't say with real hardware
[10:28:16] <geist> also I dont know what timer architecture haiku is using
[10:28:32] <geist> ist>	i definitely rewrote all of that in newos, and the new version was a bit better on emulated machines like bochs
[10:28:43] <geist> but I dont know of axel integrated that back
[10:30:12] <@Korli> i>	i think it didn't change
[10:30:41] <geist> the old system never worked worth a crap on bochs
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[10:31:02] <geist> didn't bother me much, bochs is so terrible I never used it much
[10:35:26] <@Korli> geist btw axeld said me he used the shutdown code from newos, and this code is doing a crash on Virtual PC
[10:35:59] <geist> what shutdown code? I dont think there is much of any
[10:36:03] <geist> but anyway, gotta sleep. nite
[10:37:28] <@Korli> night
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[10:53:13] <sxc> hello
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[11:01:11] <@JBurton> Korli bmessage is a mess isn't it ? :P
[11:01:50] <dipp> meep meep
[11:02:06] <dipp> anyone who has succeded in starting media_server in bochs yet?
[11:02:07] <tic> JBurton, wasn't erik supposed to work on it?
[11:03:54] <@JBurton> tic erik is gone :P
[11:04:44] <@JBurton> dipp it starts, it just get wrong replies :P
[11:04:58] <@JBurton> Korli around ?
[11:06:39] <@JBurton> I can't understand well BMessage::_send_(), any hint ?
[11:07:36] <tic> JBurton, yes, but his last assignment was still BMessage, iirc.
[11:07:43] <@JBurton> yes
[11:07:52] <@JBurton> in fact, I think that part was written by himself
[11:08:09] <@JBurton> s/"I think"/"I am sure"
[11:08:37] <tic> yes, that's what I meant.
[11:08:51] <tic> and he said, when he left, that he'd finish BMessage as a last task
[11:09:27] <@JBurton> well, actually, I have a message where he says he can't
[11:09:33] <@JBurton> (on the admin list)
[11:09:59] <@JBurton> in fact, Ingo fixed some bugs in there lately
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[11:11:43] <tic> JBurton, ouch. :<
[11:11:50] <tic> okay, goodthing ingo could do it.
[11:12:01] <tic> not much left 'til we can play w/ haiku live, is there?
[11:12:06] <@JBurton> I guess
[11:12:23] <@JBurton> looks like pieces are being put together
[11:12:59] <tic> mhm
[11:13:13] <tic> does the NVxx driver load under Haiku?
[11:13:25] <tic> (I suppose not)
[11:13:34] <tic> is it using VESA atm?
[11:13:40] <@JBurton> yes, it's using vesa
[11:13:49] <tic> okay. well, that works.
[11:14:01] <@JBurton> but primarily because it's app_server work to load the video drives
[11:14:02] <tic> I never got it to boot properly; the promise card I'm using.
[11:14:03] <@JBurton> drivers
[11:14:04] <tic> yeah.
[11:14:09] <tic> so what's consoled?
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[11:14:23] <tic> would be nice if one could actually use a text mode if one would want to.
[11:14:25] <@JBurton> it's a daemon which reads the input from keyboard
[11:14:27] <tic> ah.
[11:14:35] <@JBurton> and writes it to the screen (basically)
[11:14:44] <tic> yeah.
[11:15:05] <@JBurton> it connects the keyboard driver to the video driver
[11:15:09] <@JBurton> (cough)
[11:15:11] <tic> :)
[11:15:45] <tic> ugh, my system sucks.  the hardware itself is so-so; needs the replacement driver to boot off my disk, which is unstable, so beos crashes on shutdown. on the software side, everything is b0rked (development environment, basically), so I can't do any serious development.
[11:16:02] <tic> I _so_ need a new mobo+cpu+ram and a re-install.
[11:16:14] <@JBurton> eheh
[11:16:21] <Soulbender> re-install is a wonderfull thing
[11:16:33] <tic> it's just that it takes a day to do it.
[11:16:44] <@JBurton> the other day I booted to win98SE (after a month or so), I wanted to finish Arcanum
[11:16:49] <tic> I have all my e-mail on a separate volume these days, so that's a good thing.
[11:16:53] <@JBurton> I got a protection error
[11:16:57] <tic> ouch. :/
[11:17:05] <@JBurton> so, installation screwed without doing _anything_
[11:17:10] <tic> heh. lovely.
[11:17:13] <tic> it got stale ;)
[11:17:16] <@JBurton> ahah
[11:17:19] <tic> (as you didn't boot into it)
[11:17:21] <@JBurton> it was a very basic install
[11:17:31] <@JBurton> with only the basic stuff needed for gaming
[11:17:38] <tic> is it just me, or does it actually take you guys a day to do a beos re-install, too?
[11:18:03] <@JBurton> well, the big stuff is finding out what you have to install :P
[11:18:09] <@JBurton> I mean, the base install takes very little
[11:18:10] <tic> exactly.
[11:18:23] <tic> the problem is to move over everything in ~/config/settings
[11:18:29] <tic> I move them by hand.
[11:18:38] <tic> one-by-one
[11:18:45] <@JBurton> then it's a matter of "ouch, I didn't save the NIC driver, I have to redownload it from internet"
[11:18:52] <@JBurton> and "....er...."
[11:19:07] <tic> hehe
[11:19:18] <Soulbender> it takes me a few hours, top
[11:21:08] <tic> I go through each and every file of the system when I upgrade
[11:21:22] <tic> ugh, I have customized a lot of things. This won't be fun.
[11:21:41] <tic> I'm planning on taking the leap over to Zeta at the same time, so it'll just add to the fun. ,)
[11:22:04] <Soulbender> you mean excrutiating pain
[11:22:30] <tic> exactly. not only moving over the settings and such, I need to deal with incompabilities and such.
[11:22:32] <tic> wohoo
[11:22:42] <tic> either way, the new 'puter will hopefully make up for it.. *drool*
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[11:29:21] <dipp> tic what did zeta cost for you in SEK?
[11:30:49] <tic> dipp, haven't bought it yet.  69E, so ~620 SEK plus shipping, I guess.
[11:30:52] * tic is on R5/BONE
[11:31:03] <dipp> tic, ok
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[11:35:20] <tic> why? :)
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[11:36:37] <dipp> I maybe want to buy it too..
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[11:39:50] <@JBurton> Korli I guess you didn't fix the problem with input methods ?
[11:40:35] <tic> dipp, so go ahead :). http://www.yellowtab.biz
[11:41:45] <@Korli> JBurton no
[11:41:58] <@Korli> JBurton i'm tackling this message problem
[11:42:22] <@JBurton> ok, Korli since you're there, I'll ask you another thing
[11:42:35] <dipp> tic, I have no money atm.
[11:42:41] <@JBurton> I can't see why they do this: BMessenger::Private replyToPrivate(reply_to);
[11:42:44] <tic> dipp, ouch. :&
[11:42:50] <tic> dipp, it's no fun not having money.
[11:42:53] <@JBurton> and the rest, as they just write_port() the tmp message
[11:43:06] <@Korli> JBurton i think it's to access private methods of BMessenger
[11:43:48] <tic> Do you guys think CeBiT is a place where computer hardware is released and so?  There's a mainboard I want that was announced on Jan 11th, but it's not for sale yet.  Think they'll make it actually -available- on CeBi?
[11:43:50] <tic> +T
[11:44:11] <@JBurton> ah yes okay makes sense
[11:44:30] <@JBurton> but they don't use it
[11:44:40] <@JBurton> I mean, self isn't used in write_port
[11:45:19] <@Korli> see stack_flatten
[11:45:51] <@JBurton> yeah, I was going to say that :P
[11:46:11] <@JBurton> okay, now I see
[11:46:15] <@JBurton> (big mess)
[11:46:27] <@Korli> yeah
[11:46:43] <@JBurton> especially because variable names aren't meaningful
[11:47:07] <@Korli> what does this mean : BMessage* self = const_cast<BMessage*>(this);
[11:47:26] <tic> from const to non-const
[11:47:48] <tic> which is slightly odd; is this ever a const?
[11:48:50] <@JBurton> Korli _send_ is a const method
[11:49:05] <@Korli> ok
[11:49:11] <@JBurton> so you need to cast this to non const to change members
[11:49:14] <@JBurton> or call non const methods
[11:50:16] <dipp> tic, aye, having no money sucks big time :)
[11:50:46] <tic> dipp, I know exactly how it is.  I was _so_ lucky to get a part-time job in December. Been working my ass off there, and if it wasn't for my broken collar bone I would've been there now too.
[11:51:54] <tic> dipp, saving up to give myself a summer vacation. Haven't had any vacation at all, basically, for 5-6 years.  With a bit of luck, I'll be able to work some more and afford a new 'puter.  Hope you can find a job or something, too!
[11:52:57] <@Korli> JBurton i got a fix
[11:53:02] <@JBurton> Korli oh nice
[11:53:09] <@JBurton> please explain :)
[11:53:10] <@Korli> can i send you a diff ?
[11:53:17] <@JBurton> sure,
[11:53:33] <@JBurton> I can't do anything useful with it, but I'd like to see it :P
[11:53:34] <@JBurton> thanks
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[11:56:24] <dipp> tic, the hard life of being a student :), yeah I will try to work this summer to get some cash
[11:57:30] <@Korli> JBurton do you know how to use tests for app kit ?
[11:57:44] <tic> dipp, *nod*
[11:57:57] <@JBurton> Korli yup
[11:58:07] <tic> dipp, at the moment, I'm just waiting for hardware to be released, the money is burning a hole in my pocket. ;)
[11:58:13] <@JBurton> and you Korli ?
[11:58:21] <dipp> tic, hehe okay :)
[11:58:32] <@Korli> because i don't know if my fix brokes something
[11:58:32] <@JBurton> dipp bah, it's worse not being a student
[11:58:43] <@JBurton> Korli jam libapptest.so
[11:58:52] <@JBurton> jam libappteststub.so
[11:58:59] <@JBurton> and then UnitTester BApplication
[11:59:09] <@JBurton> or BHandler
[11:59:11] <@JBurton> BLooper
[11:59:14] <@JBurton> whatever :)
[11:59:24] <dipp> JBurton, I doubt that :)
[11:59:37] <@JBurton> dipp well it is for me :P
[11:59:46] <@Korli> JBurton too much for me
[11:59:49] <@JBurton> when I was a student, my dad paid everything
[12:00:03] <@JBurton> now I have to paid everything, and I have much less I had :P
[12:00:04] <tic> dipp, see my blog, the posting "Socket 479 Mainboard"
[12:00:32] <tic> It sure won't be fun to give up my SMP setup, though. :/
[12:00:36] <tic> I like it!
[12:02:02] <tic> So this is pretty awesome -- look at the power consumption here: http://silentpcreview.com/article219-page1.html
[12:02:14] <dipp> http://www.kontron.dk/products/emb/886lcd_m_mitx.asp damn nice..
[12:02:31] <tic> Yeah. I like it.  It's really nice that it's got AGP as well.
[12:03:07] <tic> But the Soltek is a Micro-ATX (24.4^2) so it's not _that_ big, and still plenty cheaper.  Plus, it's got some nice overclocking options.
[12:03:37] <tic> (I'm not out for benchmarking my life away, but the Pentium M _is_ very overclocking-friendly, so one might as well do it)
[12:04:21] <tic> 52C at full load fanless for a Dothan-2.0 is pretty okay. :)
[12:05:51] <tic> ohh, rsync ported to beos.
[12:05:54] <tic> wonder if it's got attribs.
[12:06:26] <@mmu_man> tic I ported it lopng ago
[12:06:32] <@mmu_man> 2 <@mmu_man>	2 line change IIRC
[12:06:36] <tic> yeah, first hit on google was your posting. :)
[12:06:39] <@mmu_man> but it doesn't use attrs
[12:06:42] <tic> now, it hasn't got attribute support.
[12:06:43] <tic> Right.
[12:06:57] <tic> Wonder how difficult it would be to add a user-level attribute support for it..
[12:07:10] <@mmu_man> dunno
[12:07:28] <tic> like, zipping up an empty file with the attributes for each file and name it <thefile>.attributes, and then unzip it when moving over to the beos system again.
[12:07:39] <tic> would be nice for backup.
[12:08:06] <@mmu_man> I guess they might add attribute support soemday since linux is getting POSIX attributes
[12:08:11] <@mmu_man> but they are differnet
[12:08:14] <@mmu_man> untyped
[12:08:16] <tic> *nods*
[12:08:30] <@mmu_man> I still have no clue on how to best map to our typed attributes
[12:08:47] <tic> me neither.
[12:08:48] <@mmu_man> WTF do ppl use lesser things instead of the good ones ?
[12:08:56] <tic> yeah, it's very strange.
[12:09:12] <tic> I think when Haiku is self-hosted people might actually start developing on it, including Linux-type people.  Don't you think?
[12:09:26] <tic> sure, there's Atheos and whatnot, but it doesn't have the same history as Haiku does, and seemingly not as user-friendly.
[12:09:47] <tic> or well, not that people aren't hacking on it now, but the Linux people sure don't.
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[12:13:21] <Soulbender> plus atheos is pretty stale
[12:13:30] <Soulbender> and syllable managed to NOT find my ps/2 mouse
[12:13:35] <Soulbender> quite an accomplishment
[12:13:39] <Soulbender> even DOS finds it
[12:13:51] <tic> ah, right. Syllable.  Well, same thing, different name. It's what I meant anyway.
[12:13:58] <tic> I think Haiku has more potential.
[12:14:18] <tic> http://www.us.ncix.com/products/index.php?sku=13855&vpn=SL-855GEI-FDGR&manufacture=SOLTEK <-- this item hasn't been updated for the last few weeks.
[12:14:24] <tic> I really hope they'll release it at CeBiT
[12:15:56] <@JBurton> Korli did you send me the diff ?
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[12:43:21] <@Korli> JBurton no
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[12:48:13] <CIA-3> korli * current/src/kits/app/ (Messenger.cpp Message.cpp):
[12:48:13] <CIA-3> fixes forwards of BMessages
[12:48:13] <CIA-3> iroster now works successfully
[12:48:25] <@Korli> JBurton it is committed, tested unitly  with iroster
[12:48:33] <@Korli> lunch
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[12:49:43] <tic> hey mahlzeit
[12:49:48] <@mahlzeit> hey
[12:52:01] <tic> 'sup?`
[12:52:19] <tic> implemented a typing system?
[12:52:39] <@mahlzeit> ?
[12:52:58] <tic> err. have you ever, ....
[12:53:11] <@mahlzeit> depends on what that means :-)
[12:53:22] <tic> for a programming language
[12:53:28] <@mahlzeit> sure
[12:53:31] <tic> using inductive rules and such.
[12:53:32] <@mahlzeit> rc has one, for example
[12:53:44] <tic> okay.  I'm supposed to do that right now.
[12:53:46] <@mahlzeit> although i'm not sure what inductive rules are :-)
[12:53:48] <tic> like
[12:53:59] <tic> x: int, y: int
[12:53:59] <tic> --------
[12:54:02] <tic> x+y: int
[12:54:35] <@mahlzeit> that sounds like a functional programming thing
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[12:55:43] <@mahlzeit> like this you mean: http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?TypeInference
[12:55:51] <tic> Right. that's the term.
[12:55:57] <tic> for the little language I'm writing. :)
[12:56:00] <@mahlzeit> never done that, but shouldn't be too hard
[12:56:02] <tic> strong dynamic typing, no scoping.
[12:56:20] <tic> not really interference though, my language is imperative.
[12:57:06] <tic> example.
[12:57:20] <tic> ic>	i = 0 # declare the variable as an integer, set it to 0.
[12:57:29] <tic> for i in 10 do
[12:57:31] <tic> print i
[12:57:32] <tic> end
[12:57:34] <tic> nice huh? :)
[12:58:29] <Soulbender> like basic?
[12:58:30] <Soulbender> :P
[12:58:33] <tic> while writing the language, I realized that an assignment could actually be shorthand for: "i is a variable with the same type as 0, and then gets assigned the value 0"
[12:58:34] <Soulbender> or python
[12:58:38] <tic> more like Python. :)
[12:58:40] <tic> My favourite langugae
[12:58:45] <tic> +spelling
[12:58:46] <Soulbender> mine too
[12:58:51] <matricks> Python rules :)
[12:58:52] <tic> only my language hasn't got lexical scoping :D
[12:59:05] <@mahlzeit> so i can also be assigned a float or string later?
[12:59:31] <matricks> I want a new language.. ObjPy++ :)
[12:59:33] <tic> mahlzeit, yup. Like in Python.  The type will be changed, so once you assign i a float or string value, it becomes that type.
[12:59:49] <tic> mahlzeit, so you won't be able to do any integer ops with i if you've assigned a string value to it.
[13:00:00] <tic> mahlzeit, hence, strong typing.
[13:00:01] <matricks> atricks>	a mix between Objective-C, Python and C++ :)
[13:00:13] <@mahlzeit> ok so the variable doesn't really have a type, only the value it contains has a type
[13:00:16] <Soulbender> gah
[13:00:34] <Soulbender> why muck up a nice language like python with c++?
[13:00:36] <tic> mahlzeit, yeah, I think that's how Python defines it.
[13:00:54] <@mahlzeit> writing your own language is fun :-)
[13:01:03] <matricks> Soulbender: I want a language with the syntax of python and the speed of c++
[13:01:12] <matricks> atricks>	a compiled language
[13:01:29] <matricks> yeye, I know that you can compile python aswell
[13:01:51] <tic> mahlzeit, a variable is actually a reference to a position in a table that holds the value.  So each time you access the variable, you lookup the type of the value you're referencing.  In Python, all variables are refs.
[13:02:00] <tic> matricks, no, you can't.
[13:02:12] <@mahlzeit> yeah since all values are objects :-)
[13:02:20] <matricks> tic: huh? there are py -> native x86 compilers
[13:02:21] <tic> matricks, but that depends on your definition.  In the end, however, it'll always be interpreted by the Python runtime.
[13:02:25] <tic> matricks, no.
[13:02:40] <matricks> huh
[13:02:44] <tic> matricks, you might be thinking of the Py-like C extension language. The name slips me at the moment..
[13:02:48] <tic> mahlzeit, mhm.
[13:02:53] <tic> Not Psyco, but .. Pyrex!
[13:02:58] <tic> anyway, that's not real Python.
[13:03:06] <tic> you have to declare types etc before-hand.
[13:03:20] <tic> there's also some work on Python-in-Python; codespeak.net/pypy. #pypy on this net.
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[13:04:11] <tic> they're using "RPython", or Restricted Python, with certain limitation, to implement Python.  In the end, they're hoping to make CPython better, or even replace it (RPython can be compiled to native-code)
[13:04:13] <tic> yo slaadster.
[13:04:22] <tic> matricks, so what's that app you're talking about?
[13:04:40] <matricks> I think it was Psyco
[13:04:59] <matricks> hmm.. JIT
[13:05:08] <tic> okay, so Psyco is a JIT.  It doesn't do everything, but sure, it's a step forward.
[13:05:18] <matricks> damn it :)
[13:05:21] <tic> I tried compiling under BeOS, but it complained about BeOS not being x86 :P
[13:05:27] <matricks> hehe
[13:05:38] <tic> (When I get time I'm going to fix that. :)
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[13:05:50] <tic> hm lots of swedes around.
[13:06:06] <slaad> Damned Svedes!
[13:06:31] <matricks> well, I want a more lowlevel language with simular syntax to python that is compiled into native machine code
[13:06:37] <matricks> similar
[13:07:07] <matricks> with the dynamics of Objective-C :)
[13:07:45] * tic stabs slaad
[13:07:51] <tic> matricks, check out Pyrex.
[13:07:53] * slaad noogies tic
[13:07:54] <tic> err
[13:08:02] <tic> with dynamics, you'll have to give up the speed. :)
[13:08:12] <tic> obj-c and python both hickups on runtime
[13:08:12] <matricks> I know :)
[13:08:49] <tic> Hm.  Maybe I should get started with my type system already. Perhaps remove the begin...end construction first.
[13:09:01] <matricks> Pyrex = compiled to native?
[13:09:32] <matricks> also.. I want Micro python :)
[13:10:15] <matricks> minimal python distribution/codebase that is easely embeddable like Lua :)
[13:10:25] <@mahlzeit> tic: what are you writing your language in?
[13:10:46] <matricks> Brainfuck?
[13:11:07] <@mahlzeit> heh, no sane person would write anything in bf
[13:11:21] <matricks> :)
[13:11:22] <@mahlzeit> it's probably not even possible!
[13:11:27] <tic> mahlzeit, I define it in LBNF syntax and generate the lexer, parser and a skeleton type checker in Haskell using a tool called BNFC.
[13:11:38] <@mmu_man> tic make sure it takes "BePC" as i586
[13:11:52] <@mmu_man> (uname -m)
[13:11:52] <tic> mmu_man, yeah. that's far off though.
[13:12:27] * tic is getting some precision using the mouse with his left hand
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[13:13:21] <Dr3w> Hey folks!
[13:13:35] <matricks> tic: do you compile or interpret your language?
[13:13:54] <tic> matricks, nothing at the moment. That's assignment #3. :) Right now I'm going to implement a type checker.
[13:14:04] <Dr3w> hey tic
[13:14:08] <matricks> heh
[13:14:13] <tic> hey drewster
[13:14:42] <@mahlzeit> ah, haskell :-)
[13:14:59] <tic> mahlzeit, easiest lang to implement languages in, I'm told.
[13:15:36] <@mahlzeit> well, programming languages aren't really that hard to implement in any language :-)
[13:16:19] <tic> mahlzeit, yeah, but the datatypes and ctors of Haskell makes it really easy to write it. Just implement the ctors and you're done.
[13:16:31] <tic> way more cumbersome in Java, for example.  I expect Python to be in the middle
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