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[00:27:26] <[Beta]> hmm, haiku-os.pl have an impressive logo
[00:35:52] <Fanskapet> yeah sure have
[00:36:00] <Fanskapet> if only yellowtab could get a decent logo :)
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[00:40:22] <Dr_Evil> hi geist
[00:40:47] <andrew_working> hello geist
[00:40:53] <andrew_working> Dr_Evil you're up late recently
[00:41:01] <[Beta]> I hope the first haiku 'distrib' comes with scummvm & Beneath a Steel Sky - more people should play that game.
[00:41:10] <slaad> Hehe.
[00:41:24] <[Beta]> evenin'
[00:41:29] <slaad> [Beta].
[00:42:15] <Dr_Evil> andrew_working holidy until 10th january
[00:42:23] <fyysik> now with log enabled crashed in driver text in log_printf. nonsense
[00:42:36] <[Beta]> Fanskapet: maybe they should rename zeta to delta, thats a cool symbol ;)
[00:42:43] <AnEvilYak> [Beta]: I never did beat that game
[00:42:53] <andrew_working> oic
[00:42:53] <AnEvilYak> [Beta]: back in the days when it came out I got close to the end but got stuck
[00:43:00] <[Beta]> it is a tricky one.. i'm currently replaying Sam n Max on my mobile
[00:43:07] <[Beta]> full talkie version :>
[00:43:15] <andrew_working> say is there anyone here who intends to do java hacking on beos
[00:43:16] <AnEvilYak> yeah, I have the CDs for most of the lucasarts games
[00:43:19] <AnEvilYak> bought the archives long ago.
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[00:43:32] <AnEvilYak> andrew_working: I thought it was mostly BryanV doing that on his own at this point?
[00:43:40] <Dr_Evil> fyysik as I said, the crashes seem to happen at perfecty valid locations doing perfectly valid things, and stack esp as well as code eip are correct and point to valid memory
[00:43:49] <andrew_working> no, I mean writing java programs on beos, not porting java
[00:43:50] <AnEvilYak> [Beta]: iirc I got stuck when you're at the bottom floor and you find that hologram of the girl telling you there might be a way in
[00:43:51] <[Beta]> I have.. all of their adventures. most of the star wars. none of the crap. ;)
[00:43:53] <AnEvilYak> andrew_working: oh.
[00:44:06] <[Beta]> Andrew : i'd like to.
[00:44:37] <[Beta]> AnEvilYak: such a long time ago.. i'll wait for haiku to put it on my desktop :)
[00:45:01] * tic pets Joey
[00:45:10] <AnEvilYak> [Beta]: hehe.
[00:45:15] <tic> (the robot, not the Friend.)
[00:45:23] <[Beta]> ooh. is Joey taken as a Be app ?
[00:45:36] <tic> don't think so..
[00:45:43] <[Beta]> sweet. andrew_working why do you ask ?
[00:46:18] <andrew_working> wondering who the customers are
[00:46:36] <tic> mix one http://www.icd.se/default.aspx?aSa=Vp&Pi=982 with two of these: http://www.icd.se/default.aspx?aSa=Vp&Pi=912
[00:46:57] <tic> presto - fanless 200W ATX PSU.
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[00:51:23] <Dr_Evil> AndrewBachmann I'm making DVB progress
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[00:51:53] <Dr_Evil> the hardware does lock to the incoming stream, it just needs 530 ms, and thats 430 more than I expected
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[00:57:24] <andrew_working> what is DVB?
[00:57:54] <Dr_Evil> DVB-T digital video broadcasting using tv antenna
[01:00:50] <andrew_working> oic
[01:00:56] <andrew_working> do you know who is working on the 855 driver?
[01:01:01] <andrew_working> graphics
[01:01:13] <fyysik> hm, suspicious thing. interrupt installer uses parameters from card->streams in if() statements, but i don't see that those streams members get reasonable values before installing interrupt. only zeroing pointers and memory
[01:01:50] <Dr_Evil> andrew_working no i don't
[01:02:12] <andrew_working> ok
[01:08:08] <tic> andrew_working, allen reese or some such.
[01:08:17] <tic> the network guy at driversoft
[01:08:32] <tic> haven't heard from him in a very long while, though.
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[01:13:07] <AnEvilYak> tic: I was under the impression he got another job
[01:13:44] <tic> AnEvilYak, prolly.  it's was just so people'd know who he is.
[01:13:58] <tic> and now, if you excuse me, it's 01:16 and I'm getting up in 4.5 hours. :P
[01:14:00] <tic> night!
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[01:16:09] <slaad> You're such a pansy, tic.
[01:16:16] <slaad> "Oh, I've got to get up in 4.5 hours." ;)
[01:16:25] <tic> bah!
[01:16:29] * tic just checked the bus tomorrow
[01:16:32] <tic> and now, sleep again.
[01:17:04] * tic snorts at slaad
[01:17:26] <tic> (sniffs?)
[01:17:28] <tic> aaaaaanyway. *poff*
[01:18:17] * slaad grins
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[01:22:47] <mwilber> AndrewBachmann, andrew_working: Are there any special libraries that I need to have in order for Haiku StyledEdit to run?
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[01:24:37] <andrew_working> libtextencoding
[01:24:50] <slaad> libpants!
[01:25:42] <Dr_Evil> libspechfilter
[01:25:51] <AnEvilYak> libwedgie
[01:25:56] <Dr_Evil> libspeechfilter
[01:26:02] <slaad> libasshat!
[01:26:06] <AnEvilYak> rofl
[01:26:17] <slaad> Must... resist... changing... WebIM library...names...
[01:26:51] <AnEvilYak> rofl
[01:26:54] <AnEvilYak> why resist?
[01:27:00] <AnEvilYak> geek humor rules :)
[01:27:02] <slaad> "To use WebIM you must install libasshat and libpants. You can obtain these from beos.assh.at" ;)
[01:27:09] <mwilber> andrew_working: Ah right, that would explain why it gets built when I do a "jam -a StyledEdit"
[01:27:11] <AnEvilYak> hahaha.
[01:27:36] <AnEvilYak> slaad: im.assh.at
[01:27:41] <slaad> Hahah
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[01:27:48] <AnEvilYak> slaad: yay double entendres ;p
[01:28:03] <slaad> Common pay cheque.
[01:28:22] <slaad> s/Common/Come ooon/
[01:28:42] <AnEvilYak> ;p
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[01:30:53] <slaad> Hrm. BeMail seems to generate invalid message IDs. Which could cause it to get lost in common spam filters.
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[01:38:35] <fyysik> Dr_Evil
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[01:39:24] <fyysik> Dr_Evil - i created printout for return value of install_interrupt_handler. It seems retruning B_UNHANDLED_INTERRUPT in my case
[01:40:12] <Dr_Evil> sorry, but that doesn't matter
[01:40:26] <fyysik> ok
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[01:43:44] <Dr_Evil> perhaps geist has an idea what is going on, I however really don't know what kind of bug you are expirencing. it is likely that an interrupt has happened and that this causes your computer to crash
[01:43:52] <fyysik> heh, no crash. rare occasion
[01:44:10] <Dr_Evil> but the data we find in KDL looks perfectly valid, so it should not have crashed at thast location where it is crashing
[01:44:28] <fyysik> seems so
[01:45:26] <fyysik> ik>	i saw at least one more person at bebits talkback who had same problem
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[01:52:37] <fyysik> again no crash. but cannot switch to channel 1. Only 0/1 is possible. Mystics
[01:55:07] <fyysik> ok, restored haiku media prefs, switching
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[01:58:14] * fyysik wonders if SB Live still has Covox/parallel port emulation
[01:58:45] <fyysik> now reasonable crash and sc
[01:59:10] <fyysik> happened in emuxki_inte_enable
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[02:06:30] <fyysik> Dr_Evil - pls look if this is more reasonable  http://beos.spb.ru/fyysik/emuxki_KDL.JPG
[02:06:45] <fyysik> sc, dis eip, regs there
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[02:09:01] <Dr_Evil> fyysik yes, esp is invalid, to ret is crashing
[02:09:27] * fyysik charged camera batteries a bit
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[02:10:16] <Dr_Evil> fyysik what does "address esp"  give you?
[02:10:25] <fyysik> minute
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[02:10:52] <Dr_Evil> fyysik and what does "address eip"  give you?
[02:11:12] <fyysik> area 05bc7c48 addr fc005000 size 01001000
[02:11:37] <fyysik> that was address esp
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[02:11:56] <Dr_Evil> what are the names?
[02:12:14] <fyysik> address fd0059cc:
[02:12:43] <fyysik> that was esp
[02:13:06] <fyysik> esp name was Stacks of medai addon server
[02:13:31] <fyysik> address eip: address 00159fe3:
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[02:14:17] <fyysik> area 05b1b768 kernel_intel_text addr 001 00000 size 00087000
[02:14:27] <Dr_Evil> that esp is a user stack and is invalid in kernel I think, geist are you here?
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[02:15:18] <fyysik> sometimes i was getting in sc: sysinit after blah blah (context?) switch
[02:15:44] <Dr_Evil> fyysik I *think* that the interrupt handler of the driver somehow clobbers the stack
[02:16:23] <Dr_Evil> so that shortly after the interrupts are enabled, the first interrupts overwrites soemthing on the stack, and then the esp or the return address from stack get invalid
[02:16:33] <fyysik> if you gimme some more commands i can do next photoshot
[02:17:37] <slaad> "Oh, yeah, that's it baby. Show me a little more stack. Ahuh, now give me a corrupted pointer. That's it, perfect! You'll be on the cover of all the magazines"
[02:18:01] <[Beta]> random :)
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[02:18:11] <Dr_Evil> address
[02:18:13] <fyysik> slaad - are you also assembler hacker?P)
[02:18:16] <Dr_Evil> oops
[02:18:30] <Dr_Evil> "address 603cdd8f" would be interesting
[02:18:52] <@geist> HELLO SIRS
[02:18:55] <slaad> Hah, nope. Only ASM I do is for microcontrollers.
[02:18:57] <fyysik> just in that form, without 0x prefix?
[02:19:05] <Dr_Evil> along with those other two address commands frmo earliert
[02:19:11] <Dr_Evil> and then a photo
[02:19:19] <Dr_Evil> fyysik shouldn't matter
[02:19:25] <@geist> hi Dr_Evil how are you today im fine
[02:19:52] <[Beta]> lo geist.
[02:20:05] <Dr_Evil> hi geist, I'm fine, too
[02:20:24] <Dr_Evil> even my DVB-T driver seems to be fine, tuning does now work :)
[02:20:40] <Dr_Evil> we are trying to locate a crash in anther driver
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[02:20:51] <@geist> hahah thats grate i got bak from vaycatesion
[02:20:56] <@geist> it was fun haha
[02:21:03] <Dr_Evil> can you have a look at  <fyysik> Dr_Evil - pls look if this is more reasonable  http://beos.spb.ru/fyysik/emuxki_KDL.JPG
[02:21:10] <AnEvilYak> geist: I'm afraid to ask if you're sober or not ;p
[02:21:14] <Dr_Evil> and the backlog here?
[02:21:22] <@geist> AnEvilYak: DONT TALK TO ME LIEK THAT
[02:21:27] <AnEvilYak> <g>
[02:21:28] <slaad> Haha.
[02:21:40] <@geist> YUR NOT MY MOM
[02:21:48] * AnEvilYak grins
[02:22:13] <Dr_Evil> fyysik after you took a photo of the three address commands, you should reboot and disassemble the driver
[02:22:30] <Dr_Evil> using objdump --disassemble thedriver >thedriver.asm
[02:22:39] <slaad> This just in; going to the grog store to buy booze does not count as a vacation ;)
[02:23:01] * AnEvilYak pours grog over slaad's head
[02:23:02] <@geist> yeah, I guess you're right
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[02:23:13] * slaad decides not to take up smoking...
[02:23:16] <@geist> oh wow I haven't seen a real KDL in such a long time
[02:23:19] <@geist> that brings back memories
[02:23:27] <slaad> Burning head does not make for a happy Mikey.
[02:23:35] <@geist> like the damn machine I had at work that sporadically generated NMIs
[02:23:46] <slaad> NMI?
[02:23:46] <@geist> and would spontaneously KDL. most of the time you could continue
[02:23:52] <AnEvilYak> non-maskable interrupt
[02:24:11] <@geist> it was a super fast machine though. it was a prototype P3 in a world of P2s
[02:24:33] <slaad> Ah.
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[02:24:40] <fyysik> Dr_Evil -   http://beos.spb.ru/fyysik/emuxki_KDL2.JPG
[02:27:10] <fyysik> Dr_Evil objdump done
[02:27:40] <Dr_Evil> fyysik well, the most likely source for this problem is:
[02:28:05] <Dr_Evil> interrupt handler is installed without setting up every variable, that is used in interrupt handler, first.
[02:28:20] <Dr_Evil> because of interrupt sharing, the handler can be executed before card interrupts are enabled
[02:28:23] <fyysik> that;s very possible
[02:28:34] <Dr_Evil> second possible source:
[02:28:35] <[Beta]> nn
[02:28:56] <fyysik> crash happens without visible sharing too
[02:28:58] <Dr_Evil> interrupts are enabled before every variable, that is used in interrupt handler, is initialized.
[02:29:11] <Dr_Evil> in case of interrupt sharing, both problems can coexist
[02:30:37] * geist curses interrupt sharing
[02:30:46] <fyysik> Dr_Evil -   http://beos.spb.ru/fyysik/emuxki.asm
[02:31:16] <Dr_Evil> using the output of address 603cdd8f you can calculate wich line in the disassembled driver is crashing (but as it's crashing in the kernel, you can't do that now)
[02:31:26] <fyysik> maybe interrupts are shared at very early state, but when all is loaded, each device has its own here
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[02:31:40] <Dr_Evil> however, you can have a look what's at emuxki_int_enable + 0x17
[02:32:09] <Dr_Evil> fyysik no, that doesn't happen. interrupts are always shared, or not at all
[02:32:26] <Dr_Evil> geist do you think I'm correct?
[02:33:32] <Dr_Evil> btw there is some dirt on your screen fyysik ;)
[02:33:39] <fyysik> 0x17 seem ret instruction
[02:33:40] <AnEvilYak> I was under the impression BeOS just uses the BIOS-assigned interrupt configuration anyhow...so if it's shared at the beginning it always will be
[02:33:48] <@geist> right
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[02:34:23] <fyysik> or pop %ebp, depends on how to count shift
[02:34:42] <Dr_Evil> yes, BeOS is dump. doesn't do IRQ reassignment, or PCI memory/io resource assugnment at all
[02:35:17] <AnEvilYak> I thought most OSes just leave that to the hardware anyhow
[02:35:23] <AnEvilYak> Was under the impression only windows tries to reassign stuff.
[02:35:32] <Dr_Evil> fyysik I'm afraid, there should be a call at emuxki_int_enable + 0x17, but that isn't importnant anymore, as we now know the problem
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[02:37:29] <fyysik> interesting that in emuxki_inte_disable there is lot of nop after ret - for alignment?
[02:37:55] <Dr_Evil> yes
[02:38:23] <Dr_Evil> it could be anything, I guess gcc uses nop to not confuse debuggers
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[02:40:24] <fyysik> ok, ll reboot and look at C code again
[02:40:39] <fyysik> hope Korli will look at screenshots too
[02:40:48] <Dr_Evil> geist so you are on holiday?
[02:41:17] <@geist> just got back today
[02:41:22] <@geist> still reading my mail and unpacking
[02:41:26] <slaad> Where'd you go?
[02:42:31] <@geist> to texas to visit my parents
[02:42:35] <@geist> been there for a few weeks
[02:42:57] <Dr_Evil> I'm not even sure if my driver initialize *everything* before installing interrupt handler, because ony assums that they are disabled. due to interrupt sharing, they can happen however
[02:43:04] <Dr_Evil> that makes a nice magazin article
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[02:44:44] <fyysik> fine
[02:44:52] <Dr_Evil> voidref that would make a nice blog article ;)
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[02:45:15] <fyysik> emuxki_inte_enable is called BEFORE install_io_interrupt - is it OK?
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[02:46:12] <@voidref> Dr_Evil. i am not driver l33t
[02:46:39] <Dr_Evil> fyysik no thats dirty
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[02:46:57] <Dr_Evil> but that might not be the reason for this crash
[02:47:17] <slaad> Is all your time spent on user level stuff, voidref?
[02:47:26] <Dr_Evil> voidref I might write one for haiku
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[02:47:46] <fyysik> moved, compiled, rebooting
[02:47:50] <@geist> voidref is an english pigdog
[02:48:10] <Dr_Evil> fyysik it's likely that emuxki_inte_enable is used for disabling interrupts, I won't look at the source
[02:49:25] <Dr_Evil> fyysik I'm finished with this issue now, as my DVB-T driver finally gets a viterbi decoder lock, I'm continuing that one
[02:50:09] <fyysik> heh, quite exotic for our country project - DVB TV
[02:50:44] <fyysik> it is very nice to get in BeOS something so modern
[02:53:28] <Dr_Evil> an 05 01:53:28 <Dr_Evil>	a well, at least my DVB driver first maps the registers, than disables interrupts, clears pending interrupt bits, and then installs the handler
[02:54:03] <Dr_Evil> so it's unlikely that anything unitialized is executed in the handler
[02:54:38] <Dr_Evil> geist did you ever think about this issue of interrupt sharing drivers?
[02:55:45] <@geist> what about it
[02:56:26] <Dr_Evil> that an interrupt handler is executed despite hardware interrupts being disabled
[02:56:49] <@geist> yes, the handler needs to deal with that
[02:56:50] <Dr_Evil> because the interrupt is generated by another device
[02:57:02] <@geist> generally speaking it's pretty obvious what's going on
[02:57:13] <Dr_Evil> yes, I was thinking of a sequence like:
[02:57:55] <fyysik> btw, this crash didn;t happen, IIRC, at Duron 800 system
[02:58:00] <Dr_Evil> map_hardware_registers(); reset_hardware(); disable_hardware_interrupts(); install_int_handler(); initialize_other_stuff();
[02:58:06] <fyysik> with same BeOS install
[02:58:42] <Dr_Evil> but the initialize_other_stuff(); is done too late, because another device can generate the interrupt and the handler will be executed
[02:59:24] <@geist> worse than that, it might happen on another cpu immediately
[02:59:31] <@geist> before the initialize_other_stuff
[03:00:07] <@geist> so you should either keep a flag that says if it's initialized, or make sure it's initialized before you install the handler
[03:00:17] <Dr_Evil> yes, that waht I ment
[03:00:27] <@geist> pretty standard stuff
[03:00:38] <@geist> one of the tricky things about driver development that's not real obvious up front
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[03:03:08] <Dr_Evil> well most drivers don't seem to do this
[03:03:19] <Dr_Evil> at least those that I looked at
[03:04:09] <@geist> yay
[03:04:53] <Dr_Evil> for example, the linux bttv driver installs irq handler pretty early, and doesn't do checks for init done in the irq handler
[03:05:13] <@geist> nice
[03:05:25] <@geist> ist>	is it holding a spinlock when it does it though?
[03:05:34] <@geist> some sort of per-device context spinlock?
[03:06:57] <Dr_Evil> no
[03:07:26] <Dr_Evil> . /* disable irqs, register irq handler */
[03:07:29] <Dr_Evil> btwrite(0, BT848_INT_MASK);
[03:07:30] <Dr_Evil> result = request_irq(btv->c.pci->irq, bttv_irq, SA_SHIRQ | SA_INTERRUPT,btv->c.name,(void *)btv);
[03:07:40] <Dr_Evil> . /* initialize hardware */
[03:07:46] <Dr_Evil> init_bt848(btv);
[03:07:50] <Dr_Evil> [...]
[03:08:41] <Dr_Evil> ahh well, I'm going to sleep
[03:08:45] <fyysik> me too
[03:08:59] <fyysik> was nice to get some more wisdom
[03:09:42] <Dr_Evil> btw fyysik
[03:09:49] <Dr_Evil> is this a SMP system?
[03:09:58] <fyysik> no
[03:10:07] <fyysik> but at SMP it crashed always
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[03:14:25] <CIA-6> mwilber * current/src/kits/translation/TranslatorRoster.cpp: Removed silly PPMTranslator hack because it caused issues with the Haiku RTF-Translator and it really never should have been added in the first place.
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[05:45:35] <@AndrewBachmann> hrm this RTF translator is usable
[05:53:17] <slaad> You sound surprised.
[05:54:11] <@AndrewBachmann> well it's not up to the level of gobe's yet
[05:54:22] <@AndrewBachmann> which also makes me curious
[06:01:31] * slaad nods
[06:03:33] <@AndrewBachmann> seems like no changes were required to stylededit to get it to use the rtf translator which is pretty cool
[06:05:58] <@AndrewBachmann> Fanskapet
[06:08:31] <@AndrewBachmann> bbiab
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[07:12:05] <@AndrewBachmann> hello Bernd
[07:12:16] <Bernd> hi
[07:13:01] <@AndrewBachmann> is there someone still working on the i855 graphics driver
[07:13:31] <Bernd> ask me?
[07:13:49] <@AndrewBachmann> yes, I thought they were working for yt?
[07:13:58] <Bernd> they=you? :)
[07:14:10] <Bernd> yes one is working on an i855 driver
[07:14:31] <@AndrewBachmann> I'm looking at getting a laptop and several of the nice ones have the i855 chipset
[07:15:10] <Bernd> i prefer nvidia
[07:15:22] <Bernd> just bought me some weeks ago a Samsung M40
[07:15:26] <@AndrewBachmann> nvidia is pretty rare in the laptop world
[07:15:27] <Bernd> very good notebook
[07:15:34] <Bernd> 17"
[07:15:37] <Bernd> 16:10
[07:15:51] <Bernd> 1,6GHz Centrino
[07:15:54] <Bernd> and amazing fast
[07:16:09] <slaad> Where's mine?
[07:16:18] <Bernd> left side?
[07:16:19] <Bernd> :)
[07:16:26] <slaad> Nuts!
[07:16:32] <Bernd> uh#
[07:16:45] <Bernd> lost?
[07:16:59] <Bernd> :)
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[07:19:40] <slaad> Oh well, back to the grindstone.
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[07:36:54] <brennanOS> you guys chatting at work?
[07:39:05] <slaad> Me? Nope.
[07:39:44] <@geist> it's 22:39 here
[07:39:53] <@AndrewBachmann> ditto
[07:40:25] <slaad> 17:40.
[07:40:37] <brennanOS> it is 00:39 here
[07:41:16] <brennanOS> I need to go to bed
[07:41:24] <Bernd> hm funny, fligh from Hamburg to Cologne is 79 Euro and one hour. By train it is 5 hours and 80 Euro
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[07:42:08] <@AndrewBachmann> it's always like that in the US
[07:42:14] <@AndrewBachmann> you pay a real premium to take the train
[07:42:18] <Bernd> makes no sense for me
[07:42:21] <@AndrewBachmann> it's worse, even
[07:42:25] <Bernd> In Germany trains are different then in USA
[07:42:31] <Bernd> it is one of the main traffic ways
[07:42:34] <@AndrewBachmann> yeah, they are better
[07:42:34] <@AndrewBachmann> :-)
[07:42:36] <Bernd> and really comfortable
[07:42:53] <@AndrewBachmann> well, ours are pretty comfortable actually
[07:42:56] <Bernd> you can go from Hamburg to Mannheim (500mls) in around 4 hours by train
[07:43:05] <slaad> Other advantage of a train is that you can take more luggage, I imagine.
[07:43:13] <Bernd> slaad true yes
[07:43:28] <Bernd> but who need more then 20KG if you go inside your country
[07:43:32] <@AndrewBachmann> it's a lot easier to step on to a train than to walk up and step on a plane
[07:43:49] <Bernd> have a 2 hour meeting there and travel ~11 hours by train then
[07:43:51] <Bernd> haha
[07:44:01] <Bernd> i will take my car i think
[07:44:07] <tic> AndrewBachmann, but that's offset by the 4 hour diff, don't you think? :)
[07:44:08] <Bernd> then i need 3 hours
[07:44:18] <Bernd> :)
[07:44:22] <tic> horray for autobahn, eh? :)
[07:44:23] <slaad> Also, you can take your car on a train.
[07:44:28] <Bernd> tic yeah!
[07:44:30] <Bernd> and fast car :))
[07:44:38] <Bernd> i love that in germany
[07:44:43] <slaad> And > 20kg luggage could apply. If you're moving across country. Or going on a holiday to a shopping "city".
[07:44:45] <tic> was the car badly wrecked in the crash?
[07:44:46] <Bernd> mostly you can drive as fast as you want and can
[07:45:02] <Bernd> tic this is "dead"
[07:45:08] <Bernd> nothing fixable on it
[07:45:12] <Bernd> i bought me a new one
[07:45:23] <tic> just like that? You're pretty rich :)
[07:45:30] <Bernd> no, need a car
[07:45:46] <Bernd> you do not need money to buy a car :)
[07:45:48] <Bernd> haha
[07:46:03] <tic> true; I suppose you could take a loan
[07:46:08] <Bernd> yep
[07:46:12] <Bernd> which makes sense for me
[07:46:21] <tic> mhm
[07:46:22] <Bernd> you get cars for 0.5% - 3% as loan
[07:46:31] <tic> that's a pretty low rate
[07:46:35] <Bernd> you do not get more if you pay it in one time
[07:46:36] <tic> you don't fear it'll go up soon?
[07:46:41] <Bernd> nope
[07:46:46] <tic> okay :)
[07:46:47] <Bernd> i bought my house 12 years ago
[07:46:55] <Bernd> and the loan was in the middle 4.5% since then
[07:47:00] <tic> nifty.
[07:47:02] <Bernd> and this is really cheap for a house credit
[07:47:09] <Bernd> makes no sense to pay cash imho
[07:47:11] <tic> you don't consider moving down to Mannheim altogether?
[07:47:16] <Bernd> i will
[07:47:23] <tic> ah
[07:47:33] <Bernd> i am searching for a house there and will "for rent" my one here
[07:47:41] <Bernd> i am 3 days/week in Mannheim
[07:47:44] <Bernd> and the rest here in Hamburg
[07:48:04] <Bernd> or anywhere else i have to work
[07:48:14] <tic> yap.
[07:48:59] <Bernd> it is not easy to find a place to stay with your family. It should not be worth then what i have. So i have to look intensive for one
[07:49:07] <Bernd> and my son is 8 and goes to school
[07:49:16] <Bernd> also not that easy just to move, the timing must work
[07:49:49] <slaad> Wow. Little Berndlettes.
[07:49:57] <Bernd> yep
[07:49:58] <Bernd> :)
[07:50:02] <Bernd> my other son is 3 months
[07:50:08] <Bernd> even more little *LOL
[07:52:06] <slaad> 3months and 8? That's a pretty big gap.
[07:52:11] <Bernd> yes
[07:52:15] <Bernd> wasnt other possible
[07:52:26] * slaad nods
[07:54:03] <tic> slaad, at Siemens, where I work, 6/8 are directly from the CS class I'm from, three from my year, and three from one year above or below, rest are from the IT university. fun. :)
[07:54:14] <slaad> Scary.
[07:54:29] <slaad> That reminds me... I should email about this job.
[07:55:23] <tic> eek, gotta catch a bus.
[07:55:26] <tic> *runs*
[07:57:05] <Bernd> haha
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[09:07:09] <JBurton> hi
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[09:50:39] <@Korli> hi geist JBurton
[09:50:45] <JBurton> heya Korli
[09:50:49] <JBurton> it's been a while :P
[09:51:08] <@Korli> back at work :p
[09:54:40] <JBurton> heh, about time :P
[09:55:07] <@Korli> JBurton happy new year
[09:55:40] <JBurton> thanks Korli and to you too
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[10:00:20] <@Korli> hi Dr_Evil
[10:01:32] <JBurton> hi Dr_Evil
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[12:24:21] <fyysik> Korli - did Dr_Evil send two screenshots link to you?
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[12:39:05] <fyysik> Korli - http://beos.spb.ru/fyysik/emuxki_KDL.JPG and
[12:39:18] <fyysik> http://beos.spb.ru/fyysik/emuxki_KDL2.JPG
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[13:30:58] <ShackaN> is there a rss feed with the haiku mailing lists?
[13:31:32] <JBurton> don't think so
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[13:39:16] 
[13:39:26] <Dr_Evil> Hallo stippi
[13:39:39] <stippi> Dr_Evil: Yo
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[13:39:53] <JBurton> hey stippi
[13:40:04] <stippi> What's up?
[13:40:18] 
[13:40:20] <Teknomancer> stippi are u the WonderBrush programmer ?
[13:40:22] <JBurton> nothing to see here, move on
[13:40:23] <JBurton> :P
[13:40:29] <JBurton> unlike from your side, stippi :P
[13:40:54] <stippi> Teknomancer: Yes.
[13:41:15] <Teknomancer> ah, ok
[13:41:22] <stippi> JBurton: You're puzzling me...
[13:41:33] <JBurton> stippi Painter
[13:41:40] <stippi> JBurton: Yes.
[13:41:41] <JBurton> you have news, unlike me
[13:41:47] <stippi> JBurton: Ah
[13:41:50] <JBurton> that's all :P
[13:41:58] <stippi> JBurton: I'm working on it right now.
[13:42:10] <JBurton> cool :P
[13:42:39] <JBurton> are you working on it independently from the app server ?
[13:42:40] <stippi> JBurton: Implementing BPolygon and BShape support.
[13:42:46] <stippi> JBurton: Yes.
[13:42:48] <JBurton> oh, neat
[13:42:49] <JBurton> ok
[13:43:06] <JBurton> so integrating it won't be your work
[13:43:10] <stippi> JBurton: I want it to be easily usable as a drawing back end.
[13:43:22] <JBurton> ok
[13:43:26] <stippi> JBurton: I don't know that yet.
[13:43:52] <stippi> JBurton: app_server is not my beast, I don't know all about it, and I think it will take me some time getting to know all the details.
[13:44:10] <JBurton> makes sense
[13:44:29] <stippi> JBurton: But DarkWyrm has been pretty quite lately, even though he asked me for my status before I posted to Haiku app_server list.
[13:44:43] <stippi> JBurton: So I might like to help out in integrating it.
[13:44:46] <JBurton> yeah, that's true. dead quiet
[13:45:09] <stippi> JBurton: At least I will clean up my code and start commiting.
[13:45:22] <JBurton> stippi I'd like to ask you... how does Agg do the drawing in WonderBrush ? does it draw to a bbitmap ?
[13:45:31] <JBurton> stippi ok
[13:45:43] <JBurton> you have write access, do you ?
[13:45:49] <stippi> JBurton: yes, yes
[13:45:56] <JBurton> :=)
[13:46:09] <JBurton> I ask because it's amazingly fast and smooth
[13:46:34] <stippi> JBurton: But AGG can draw to just anything in memory, supporting padding also.
[13:46:48] <Teknomancer> whats AGG ? :)
[13:46:55] <stippi> JBurton: I tend to disagree about it being smooth and fast.
[13:47:01] <JBurton> stippi oh,why ?
[13:47:09] <JBurton> that's how it looked
[13:47:21] <stippi> Teknomancer: It's a high quality 2D drawing engine in C++ with a BSD style license.
[13:47:22] <mes_> Teknomancer: anti grain geometry 2-d engine
[13:47:47] <stippi> JBurton: Maybe with only a few objects...
[13:48:02] <stippi> JBurton: But there is really lots of room for speed improvements.
[13:48:04] <Teknomancer> stippi u use AGG instead of StrokeLine() etc of BView ??
[13:48:07] <JBurton> well, good to know
[13:48:51] <stippi> Teknomancer: You mean in WonderBrush? No, I use both. AGG for actual painting on the canvas, BView drawing for controls and manipulators.
[13:49:40] <Teknomancer> stippi I asked for the canvas... ah so u use AGG?  how come AGG works with BViews?? is it beos library ?
[13:50:19] <JBurton> er, read a couple of lines above, Teknomancer :P
[13:50:28] <Teknomancer> memory ?
[13:50:29] <stippi> Teknomancer: Nope. It's a cross platform C++ lib, without any dependencies. I had to work hard to integrate it into WonderBrush and use it as a drawing back end.
[13:50:39] <Teknomancer> oh
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[13:51:08] <stippi> Teknomancer: Before I did that, I tested a couple of other 2D engines, Zodius, then libart.
[13:51:43] <Teknomancer> btw, stippi u're toolbars are nice :)  I used your style for a to-be-released app of mine ;-P
[13:51:44] <stippi> Teknomancer: When trying to query for information about some problem I had with libart, I found out about agg, which is far superiour and C++.
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[15:15:35] <Dr3w> Korli, whats cannaIM ?
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[15:19:21] <Dr3w> Korli, are you around?
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[15:23:47] <@Korli> Dr3w it's an input method addon
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[15:33:55] <lechu_mys> ;)
[15:33:59] <lechu_mys> hi all '
[15:34:00] <lechu_mys> ;]
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[15:50:10] <lechu_mys> :| :|
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[17:06:27] <Begasus> plop
[17:07:36] <tic> plop
[17:08:24] <Dr3w> splosh
[17:08:53] <Begasus> still connected then :D
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[17:33:57] <fyysik> Jan 05 16:33:57 <fyysik>
[17:34:41] <Dr3w> Jan 05 16:34:41 <Dr3w>
[17:38:12] <w-ber> Jan 05 16:38:12 <w-ber>
[17:40:37] <fyysik> Korli ?
[17:41:28] <Dr3w> fyysik ?
[17:42:12] <brennanOS> Dr3w?
[17:42:32] <fyysik> are you Korli, Dr3w?
[17:42:51] <Dr3w> no :) I just love the funny chat that goes on in here :)
[17:42:59] <Dr3w> fyysik, he was here about 2 hours ago.
[17:43:32] <@Korli> fyysik
[17:43:41] <Dr3w> there you go :)
[17:47:55] <Dr_Evil> Dr3w this is a international chat
[17:49:32] <Dr3w> Dr_Evil, but of course it is!
[17:50:28] <Master199> i thought we are all from the kdl :P
[17:51:51] <Dr_Evil> I don't stay in KDL longer than necessary
[17:52:06] <Master199> hehe
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[17:54:14] <Master199> hi mmadia :-)
[17:54:23] <mmadia> hi Master199
[17:54:31] <mmadia> and all
[17:54:38] <tic> hey matt
[17:54:46] <fyysik> Korli - did you get those two screenshots ?
[17:54:57] <mmadia> what is up mike?
[17:55:18] <mmadia> http://bash.org/?433064   :)
[17:55:28] <tic> mmadia, not much. coding.
[17:55:43] <Dr3w> Can I see the screenshots!?!
[17:55:48] * Dr3w wants eye-candy...
[17:56:15] <tic> screenies of what?
[17:56:36] <@Korli> fyysik i got them, i'm surprised, crash happens in normal init code
[17:56:42] <fyysik> Dr3w - are you developer? assembler guru? kernel hacker?
[17:57:09] <fyysik> Korli - that one with crash in emuxki_inte_enable ?
[17:57:31] <Dr_Evil> Korli we already analyzed it last night
[17:57:47] <Dr3w> app developer, wanna-be kernel dev.  Look at the commits for user mccall on the openbeos CVS.
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[17:57:52] <Dr3w> long time ago though.
[17:58:22] <@Korli> Dr_Evil then ?
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[17:59:31] <tic> moo
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[18:01:34] <Dr_Evil> Korli wait
[18:01:52] <fyysik> Dr_Evil suspected that not all variables/ponters used in interrupt handler are initialized for moment when interrupt happens first time, IIRC
[18:03:44] <Dr_Evil> [02:19] <Dr_Evil> fyysik I *think* that the interrupt handler of the driver somehow clobbers the stack
[18:03:44] <Dr_Evil> [02:20] <Dr_Evil> so that shortly after the interrupts are enabled, the first interrupts overwrites soemthing on the stack, and then the esp or the return address from stack get invalid
[18:03:44] <Dr_Evil> [02:31] <Dr_Evil> fyysik well, the most likely source for this problem is:
[18:03:44] <Dr_Evil> [02:32] <Dr_Evil> interrupt handler is installed without setting up every variable, that is used in interrupt handler, first.
[18:03:45] <Dr_Evil> [02:32] <Dr_Evil> because of interrupt sharing, the handler can be executed before card interrupts are enabled
[18:03:47] <Dr_Evil> [02:32] <Dr_Evil> second possible source:
[18:03:49] <Dr_Evil> [02:32] <Dr_Evil> interrupts are enabled before every variable, that is used in interrupt handler, is initialized.
[18:03:50] <fyysik> maybe SB Live CT4830 has some more interrupts to be disabled besides those 4 you disabling in emuxki_init ? Or some register with different from listed names requires to be set?
[18:03:52] <Dr_Evil> [02:33] <Dr_Evil> in case of interrupt sharing, both problems can coexist
[18:03:54] <Dr_Evil> [02:34] * geist curses interrupt sharing
[18:03:56] <Dr_Evil> {02:46] <Dr_Evil> I'm not even sure if my driver initialize *everything* before installing interrupt handler, because ony assums that they are disabled. due to interrupt sharing, they can happen however
[18:03:59] <Dr_Evil> [02:47] <Dr_Evil> that makes a nice magazin article
[18:04:32] <Dr_Evil> fyysik as already said, disabling card interrupts doesn't help when the interrupt is shared (as it most likely is in a lot of systems)
[18:04:49] <tic> Anyone here used the Marvell driver?
[18:06:58] <@Korli> Dr_Evil the handler is installed after the crash point, no ?
[18:07:17] <Dr_Evil> I didn't look at the source
[18:07:59] <fyysik> Korli - we cannot be sure about real crash point, though
[18:08:41] <fyysik> this screenshot represents only one of such crash cases...
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[18:09:07] <@Korli> ah this is annoying
[18:09:56] <@Korli> fyysik did you check with an empty interrupt handler as i suggested ?
[18:10:01] <Dr_Evil> thats because an interrupt handler is corrupting something
[18:10:54] <fyysik> Korli -IIRC you proposed to uncomment all TRACE statements in handler. But i can do test now with immediate return' in handler. No problem
[18:11:04] <fyysik> setting laptop here to chat
[18:11:13] <@Korli> have to go, bye
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[18:16:40] <fyysik> Dr_Evil - crashed with empty interrupt handler returning B_HANDLED_INTERRUPT. Should i try UNHANDLED instead?
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[18:25:20] <Dr_Evil> yes
[18:26:47] <fyysik> same s*t. changing compiler to 2.9, to see if results will be absolutely same
[18:27:17] <fyysik> now it happened in log_printf in dump_hardware()
[18:27:24] <Dr_Evil> fyysik can you lookup in Devices Preferences which devices share the IRQ? It's the "resource usage" (ALT+U) tab
[18:27:53] <Dr_Evil> fyysik hello, wake up please. if it's causes by an interrupt, it will happen in any team at any place
[18:28:16] <fyysik> Dr_Evil i said that several times. No device sharing here. So we cannot supect that reason:(
[18:28:58] <fyysik> Dr_Evil - yeah, but dump_hardware happened, as Korli said, before interrupt handler is installed
[18:29:08] <Dr_Evil> well, than it's an hardware problem. if an empty interrupt handler still crashes, and there is no interrupt sharing, then we can stop now
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[18:29:24] <Dr_Evil> did you install any other drivers recently?
[18:30:29] <fyysik> hmm, Dr_Evil - no, i didn;t and it happens in very different BeOS installs. One - my own distro from R5 and Bone7a and second - BeOS MAX based on PE3
[18:31:00] <fyysik> and i don;t think that hardware is So wrong, as it don't crash with Be's drivers
[18:31:29] <fyysik> PE 5.03 i meant
[18:31:33] <Dr_Evil> make a picture of "resource use"
[18:31:37] <Dr_Evil> or better
[18:31:55] <Dr_Evil> run "poke" from command line, type "pci", press enter, and save output to a file
[18:32:05] <fyysik> ok
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[18:38:03] <fyysik> http:/beos.spb.ru/fyysik/fyysik_poke_pci.txt  Dr_Evil
[18:38:11] <fyysik> http://beos.spb.ru/fyysik/fyysik_poke_pci.txt  Dr_Evil
[18:39:22] <Dr_Evil> oh an Intel motherboard chipset :)
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[18:42:05] <Dr_Evil> ok thats the soundcard:
[18:42:06] <Dr_Evil> bus 00 device 0c function 00: vendor 1102 device 0002 revision 08
[18:42:38] <fyysik> yup
[18:43:19] <Dr_Evil> ok no interrupt sharing
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[18:43:41] <Dr_Evil> but there are two devices that have an uncomfigured interrupt
[18:43:59] <fyysik> one is USB
[18:44:03] <fyysik> probably
[18:44:13] <fyysik> ik>	i disabled interrupt for that in BIOS
[18:44:51] <fyysik> secon is probably Radeon
[18:45:06] <fyysik> disabled IRQ for VGA in BIOS
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[18:54:18] <fyysik> Dr_Evil - may it be that we;re searching in wrong place and problem occurs in haiku multiaudio add-on? (Though, as notice, same addon works with Be's gamedriver)
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[20:01:02] <BeMonni> latest BeBits compiler doesn't seem to handle latest changes in input_server... gets a lot of warnings and some errors
[20:03:15] <@Korli> BeMonni ??
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[20:03:53] <BeMonni> for example:  warning: ANSI C++ forbids declaration `RkwCvtHan' with no type
[20:04:32] <@Korli> it isn't input_server
[20:04:49] <BeMonni> it's in one of the input methods...
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[20:05:14] <@AndrewBachmann> the asian input method?
[20:05:14] <@voidref> does it have a return type?
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[20:05:20] <@Korli> this addon is based on an external lib, hence the warnings
[20:05:36] <BeMonni> voidref: don't think so... I try to check if it works with "int"
[20:05:36] <@AndrewBachmann> sounds like a job for Jamfile flags
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[20:05:46] <@AndrewBachmann> i.e. -w
[20:05:49] <@voidref> you have to have return types
[20:05:52] <@Korli> AndrewBachmann very likely
[20:05:55] <@voidref> otherwise you are coding illegaly in c++
[20:05:59] <@voidref> and stupidly in C!
[20:06:03] <dos4> please submit small patches to the mailinglist first BeMonni, many fixes in the large diff seems to be done in a wrong way
[20:06:07] <tic> hey yakster.
[20:06:19] <@Korli> voidref you can't even think how you're right
[20:06:24] <@AndrewBachmann> we don't patch third party libs unless necessary
[20:06:28] <@AndrewBachmann> removing warnings is not necessary
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[20:06:39] <BeMonni> dos4: I have whole tomorrow to make smaller patches... I just posted the link for big patch to get comments about how to modify the style...
[20:06:48] <@voidref> warnings are the bane of competent programming
[20:07:04] <@voidref> inane warnigns hide real ones
[20:07:10] <@voidref> which causes hard to find bugs
[20:07:14] <BeMonni> AndrewBachmann: I already found one bug because I eliminated few hundred warnings...
[20:07:22] <@AndrewBachmann> if a warning bothers you, you supply a patch to the third party, and after they accept it, then we apply it
[20:07:56] <dos4> instead of adding prototypes everywehre, mark functions as static if they don't need to be globally visible
[20:08:11] <BeMonni> stupid Jam still builds almost whole tree even though I said to only recompile canna
[20:09:01] <@Korli> BeMonni change dir to canna, then jam clean and jam
[20:09:18] <BeMonni> Korli: Dr_Evil said "jam clean" is discouraged
[20:09:30] <@AndrewBachmann> yeah, you don't need to jam clean
[20:09:31] <@AndrewBachmann> just jam
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[20:09:46] <Dr_Evil_> il_>	i said it shouldn't be done that often
[20:10:09] <@AndrewBachmann> if you are environment variables then you may want to jam clean
[20:10:14] <@AndrewBachmann> er, changing env vars
[20:10:20] <BeMonni> Dr_Evil_: It's the only way to make Jam output all warnings even from files that compile
[20:10:23] * w-ber is an environment variable
[20:10:50] * Procton unsets w-ber.
[20:10:56] <w-ber> ...
[20:11:22] <tic> del wber
[20:11:26] * AnEvilYak uncoffees Procton
[20:11:31] <tic> import operator; operator.del wber
[20:11:35] <Procton> now that is impossible.
[20:11:59] <tic> bleh, del is a keyword.
[20:12:03] <tic> like print. I dislike magicness.
[20:12:15] <AnEvilYak> Procton: don't bet on that ;p
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[20:13:16] <@Korli> ""jam clean" is discouraged", what's this ?
[20:14:48] <tic> jam peanutbutter
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[20:15:11] <AnEvilYak> jam tuna
[20:15:20] <tic> hrm.  that works, but not with jam, though?
[20:15:43] <@AndrewBachmann> it's just not necessary Korli
[20:16:12] <@Korli> AndrewBachmann then how do you rebuild the local dir only ?
[20:16:19] <@AndrewBachmann> jam
[20:16:26] <BeMonni> lol... who cares about what's necessary when building alpha/beta code... every removed bug is less pain in the a$$ later on
[20:16:45] <@Korli> AndrewBachmann jam doesn't rebuild anything you know
[20:17:01] <@AndrewBachmann> no, it rebuilds what you changed
[20:17:15] <BeMonni> sometimes it'
[20:17:19] <@Korli> changes in Jamfile aren't seen you know
[20:17:37] <BeMonni> sometimes it's necessary to rebuild even unchanged files except if you set to treat warnings as errors
[20:17:38] <@AndrewBachmann> ok, but it's not usual to change the Jamfile
[20:17:53] <@Korli> AndrewBachmann this is the case we're talking about
[20:18:04] <fyysik> Korli - tried to return from emuxki_int immediately, with both versions - B_UNHANDLED_INTERRUPT and B_HANDLED. Crashes:(
[20:18:09] <@Korli> orli>	or if i change my gcc
[20:18:28] <@AndrewBachmann> BeMonni did you change the jamfile?
[20:19:17] <BeMonni> AndrewBachmann: Don't even remember what files I change... that's why I usually do big diffs... to refresh my memory what files I have changed... Don't want to wait days for individual directory diffs to finish
[20:19:19] <@Korli> fyysik i don't understand what's happening, crashes at which point ?
[20:19:37] <Dr_Evil_> using "jam -a target" is most times much better than jam clean
[20:19:51] <fyysik> lat timed it crashed in emuxki_setup, last name in sc was read_io_16
[20:19:56] <fyysik> last time
[20:20:03] <@Korli> BeMonni i meant "don't do jam -a target" because it would rebuild every dependency
[20:20:23] <@AndrewBachmann> lol
[20:20:52] <@Korli> unless you want to rebuild libbe.so for a change in your little addon
[20:20:57] <BeMonni> ok... do any of you want me to make individual directory patch for any of the changes I did near new year?
[20:22:09] * Dr_Evil_ would reject most changes from the big diff
[20:22:15] <BeMonni> before I tell jam to start building whole tree again...
[20:22:34] <BeMonni> Dr_Evil_: That's why I asked if you want just the ones you would accept ;)
[20:22:53] <BeMonni> Dr_Evil_: And which ones ;)
[20:22:59] <Dr_Evil_> thats the reason why I asked early to stop and instead start sending small patches to the mailinglist
[20:23:15] <BeMonni> Dr_Evil_: Everytime one of the partial diffs is commited the big one gets smaller and easier to find clean parts ;)
[20:23:30] <BeMonni> Dr_Evil_: I can't send mail on this machine, don't have BeMail installed ;)
[20:25:13] <BeMonni> Dr_Evil_: And I really dislike mailinglists because some of the software mangle the diff files...
[20:25:50] <Dr_Evil_> your are wasting time
[20:25:54] <@Korli> fyysik maybe beos crashs when no interrupt handler is installed for an interrupt
[20:26:11] <@Korli> bye
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[20:26:43] <BeMonni> Dr_Evil_: Well... In the end I'm not wasting time if I save few days when you others fix issues I have already resolved and I can finally dump Windows and switch to Haiku for rest of my life...
[20:28:31] <fyysik> now real handler installed, crash in emuxki_setup last sc name write_io_16. I will continue hacking, but now i seems found reason fro troubles with Bezilla/FF and gcc 2.953. Should check that too this night
[20:28:37] <BeMonni> Dr_Evil_: Actually one thing that is good with "redundant" function prototypes is when parameter count is wrong... compiler detects such issues ;)
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[20:40:29] <fyysik> first write_io_16 op in emuxki_setup is reset followed with snooze
[20:41:21] <fyysik> mmadia
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[21:13:44] <Fanskapet> http://www.grandtheftendo.com/ :)
[21:13:50] <Fanskapet> GTA for NES 8bit :)
[21:13:55] <Fanskapet> pretty neat :)
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[21:19:28] <stippi> yo
[21:21:53] <Fanskapet> alloah
[21:23:10] <fyysik> Dr_Evil_ what do you think if joystick port at soundcard also requires separate interrupt handling?
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[21:30:54] <fyysik> no crash, so got emuxki.log this time
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[22:03:15] <@AndrewBachmann> hello mmu_man
[22:03:35] <@mmu_man> plop
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[22:05:38] <@mmu_man> anyone interested in FATX support in dosfs ?
[22:05:40] <@mmu_man> =)
[22:05:42] <AnEvilYak> FATX?
[22:05:55] <@mmu_man> the XBox version
[22:05:55] * AnEvilYak troutslaps BGA
[22:06:12] <AnEvilYak> mmu_man: didn't know it used a modified FAT
[22:07:25] * fyysik thinks that even WinFS will use FAT
[22:07:32] <fyysik> FAT8 or so
[22:07:47] <AnEvilYak> you realize winfs is a layer on top of the filesystem right?
[22:07:50] <AnEvilYak> it's not the FS itself.
[22:07:55] <AnEvilYak> it's more like what Apple does with Spotlight
[22:08:03] <AnEvilYak> where the db/indexing is separated from the fs impl.
[22:08:12] <@BGA> AnEvilYak!
[22:08:15] <AnEvilYak> BGA!
[22:08:22] <tic> boing boing
[22:08:31] <tic> AnEvilYak, that's suckiness
[22:08:36] <AnEvilYak> tic: yes and no.
[22:08:44] <AnEvilYak> tic: the BFS style approach has major issues when it comes to multiuser.
[22:10:24] <tic> true.
[22:11:25] <@mmu_man> actually by reading Dominics book it looks like NTFS has quite a lot of features BFS has
[22:11:35] <@mmu_man> like attributes and indices
[22:11:39] <@mmu_man> just noone uses them
[22:11:53] <AnEvilYak> mmu_man: NTFS only has 64KB for attrs though
[22:11:53] <@AndrewBachmann> yes, the NTFS file system should store the mimetype in a native attribute :-)
[22:12:01] <AnEvilYak> mmu_man: just like XFS
[22:12:13] <@mmu_man> AnEvilYak yeah well it's enough for many things we currently do
[22:12:21] <AnEvilYak> mmu_man: true.
[22:12:23] <@mmu_man> BFS currently only supports 4GB /attr anyway =)
[22:12:32] <@mmu_man> (due to not supporting the offset value)
[22:12:32] <AnEvilYak> mmu_man: does it?
[22:12:36] <AnEvilYak> ah.
[22:12:50] <fyysik> AnEvilYak - nobody knows. Till now WinFS is fake, it is MS to decide if it will be at all and how to do it:) Hype atm
[22:12:54] <Dr3w> What are the BFS multiuser issues?
[22:13:03] <@mmu_man> Dr3w some on indices
[22:13:14] <AnEvilYak> Dr3w: indices store inode refs directly
[22:13:20] <AnEvilYak> which allows you to completely bypass permissions
[22:13:23] <@mmu_man> even though indices belong to a user and other users can create indices as well
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[22:13:31] <@mmu_man> AnEvilYak not exactly
[22:13:31] <Dr3w> Ooo doesn't sound good.
[22:13:34] <AnEvilYak> mmu_man: close enough.
[22:13:44] <AnEvilYak> mmu_man: that's basically how jbq explained it anyhow
[22:13:53] <@mmu_man> it's letting ppl open vnodes by entry_refs which is dangerous
[22:14:14] <@mmu_man> even can get the kernel to open a bad vnode and crash
[22:14:31] <@mmu_man> indices themselves are just special directories
[22:15:12] <AnEvilYak> right but it was my understanding that the indices key/value pairs use inode numbers as the value
[22:15:27] <tic> B_FIX ;)
[22:15:31] <AnEvilYak> so as to have a persistent way of locating the file that doesn't change with rename/move ops
[22:15:43] <@mmu_man> now because BFS must reconstruct the paths for queries it stores teh parent vnid in the inodes
[22:15:51] <AnEvilYak> right.
[22:16:00] <@mmu_man> (which is also why supporting hardlinks is not possible)
[22:16:31] <@mmu_man> so _kopen_vnode() could just parse teh path up, and access() it
[22:16:39] <@mmu_man> just will slow things down
[22:16:52] <@mmu_man> still vnodes have unix perms for themselves in
[22:17:30] <@mmu_man> the only prob is to a) make sure parents allow access (say /boot is --------- and /boot/foo is rwxrwxrwx it should still be forbidden to access /boot/foo)
[22:17:55] <@mmu_man> b) make sure the vnode opened is valid (= pat of the file system)
[22:18:11] <@mmu_man> and not a fake data with valid magic numbers :)
[22:18:19] <@AndrewBachmann> mmu_man in my experience the parent permissions don't matter
[22:18:28] <AnEvilYak> parent permissions aren't supposed to matter
[22:18:31] <@mmu_man> that should be possible also by reconstructing paths (but being very careful since any data can be wrong)
[22:18:43] <AnEvilYak> for example, a user can create a subdir in their home dir that you have permissions to
[22:18:46] <@mmu_man> AndrewBachmann they might not in bfs but they must in POSIX
[22:18:47] <AnEvilYak> and it will let you access that subdir
[22:18:50] <AnEvilYak> but not the rest of home
[22:18:57] <AnEvilYak> (on linux)
[22:18:58] <@AndrewBachmann> I don't think that's right mmu_man, AnEvilYak has it
[22:19:14] <@AndrewBachmann> this is my experience on other unix
[22:19:14] <AnEvilYak> AndrewBachmann: I know it is, it's how I access my area of my brother's web server.
[22:19:24] <AnEvilYak> also known as "Bypass Traverse Checking"
[22:19:26] <AnEvilYak> which NT does as well
[22:19:34] <@mmu_man> at least the direct parent perms must be checked before removing the vnode
[22:19:44] <@mmu_man> NT has ACLs
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[22:19:56] <AnEvilYak> mmu_man: well, yeah, for remove certainly
[22:19:58] <AnEvilYak> mmu_man: but not for access
[22:20:05] <AnEvilYak> mmu_man: since remove would be an operation on the parent
[22:20:13] <AnEvilYak> (updating the directory)
[22:20:25] <@mmu_man> still ensuring the vnode is part of teh fs imposes making sure it points back up to the root vnid
[22:20:37] <konrad> mmu_man is thats why NT is so much better than Unix? (ACLs)?
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[22:20:45] <@mmu_man> AnEvilYak hmm right unlink takes the parent vnid
[22:20:53] <@mmu_man> konrad certainly not
[22:20:55] <@mmu_man> ACL SUXOR
[22:20:56] <ShackaN> ACL r0ck!
[22:21:04] <konrad> mmu_man ah I guess its another feature then =)
[22:21:12] <tic> bah. it isn't.
[22:21:26] <ShackaN> /etc/shadow sux0r !
[22:21:28] <ShackaN> :)
[22:24:05] <AnEvilYak> I like ACLs :(
[22:24:36] <tic> two opposing wills; who will be the winner of this game!
[22:25:00] <@AndrewBachmann> tune in next week
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[22:26:02] <tic> for more Haiku action!
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[22:28:44] <@mmu_man> <Batman> ... But the worst... is just yet to come !!!
[22:29:09] <@mmu_man> Tune in tomorrow, same time, same channel !! </Batman>
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[22:29:31] <ShackaN> what are we gonna see tomorrow?
[22:29:48] <tic> POW!  KA-BLAM!
[22:30:19] <konrad> ShackaN maybe we all should read http://www.microsoft.com/windowsserversystem/facts/migrate.mspx and see what we do tomorrow?
[22:30:55] <ShackaN> oh
[22:31:05] <ShackaN> that's what I'm going to do! SURE!
[22:31:41] <ShackaN> "Get a free windows vs. linux evaluation kit"!?!?
[22:31:43] <ShackaN> wtf!?
[22:31:49] <konrad> Hmm Iam intrested in the "outperforms Linux"
[22:32:35] <ShackaN> what I'd like to see there one day "outperforms linux, but can't catch on with haiku"
[22:32:36] <ShackaN> :D
[22:32:41] <konrad> Hehe
[22:32:48] <konrad> That would be nice
[22:33:07] <tic> ugh, a server OS that can't be remotely controlled through an ssh session is useless.
[22:33:21] <konrad> For you it might yes
[22:33:59] <tic> fat chance of an admin doing a web server restart from my PDA through a GPRS connection on Windows in case it goes down and the dude is out of office.
[22:34:37] <konrad> He never has to restart it in the first place, he is using windows, it just workes
[22:34:53] <konrad> tic dont you ever watch tv?
[22:35:03] <tic> hahahaha
[22:35:04] <tic> Right.
[22:35:15] <tic> that's why all Windows 'puters get virii and whatnot?
[22:35:23] <tic> windows on a server my ass.
[22:36:30] <konrad> .... is like placing the server on the desktop (linux)
[22:36:46] <@mmu_man> ShackaN sure NT outperforms Linux
[22:36:53] <@mmu_man> just need to see which box you run each
[22:37:15] <@mmu_man> I can make a samba server on a PII
[22:37:23] <@mmu_man> XP needs at least a P4
[22:37:28] <ShackaN> :)
[22:37:35] <@mmu_man> of course it will outperform the PII
[22:37:42] <@mmu_man> except if I put linux on the P4 as well =)
[22:38:40] <ShackaN> uhm, dilbert.com I so sloooow today...
[22:39:00] <konrad> mmu_man http://linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=2003-05-08-019-26-NW-MS-RH&tbovrmode=1
[22:39:50] <AnEvilYak> ShackaN: loaded fine here
[22:40:37] <ShackaN> don't know there, but I have a week stripes worth to read and it's taking ages :)
[22:42:23] <@mmu_man> yeah I can do a bench too
[22:42:28] <@mmu_man> Linux: $0
[22:42:32] <@mmu_man> Samba: $0
[22:42:38] <@mmu_man> XP: too expensive
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[22:42:52] <@mmu_man> Linux+Samba = x sec/MB
[22:43:00] <@mmu_man> XP = NAN sec/MB
[22:43:58] <@mmu_man> not sure I understood today's dilbert
[22:44:06] <@mmu_man> EASLEEP anyway
[22:46:41] <ShackaN> mmu_man, I'm not a today yet
[22:46:45] <ShackaN> *at
[22:47:13] <konrad> night, all
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[22:49:36] <@AndrewBachmann> mmu_man link?
[22:51:33] <tic> o/~ I must, I must, I must increase my bust! o/~
[22:51:49] <@AndrewBachmann> ?
[22:51:59] <AnEvilYak> hahahaha.
[22:52:07] <AnEvilYak> http://www.dilbert.com/ Andrew
[22:52:12] <@mmu_man> ENOSYS
[22:52:24] <@mmu_man> (hardlinks not supported on BFS)
[22:52:26] <@mmu_man> :p
[22:53:07] <@AndrewBachmann> is this the dilbert you are referring to mmu_man: http://www.dilbert.com/
[22:53:14] <@mmu_man> yup
[22:53:31] <@AndrewBachmann> he implies that she can't be the receptionist because she is too ugly
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[22:54:50] <tic> Grr, I don't like broken views.
[22:56:32] <ShackaN> nobody likes broken stuff
[22:57:03] <AnEvilYak> ShackaN: except for people who like to fix broken stuff ;p
[22:57:51] <ShackaN> you mean m$ engineers write broken code for fun ?
[22:58:30] <tic> the dnd stuff is slightly broken in BColumnListView
[22:58:45] <ShackaN> that could be an explanation why I'm seeing new windows exploits popping up every week
[22:59:53] <tic> nope, listen to konrad. windows is good.
[23:00:06] <AnEvilYak> he's no longer around to be listened to
[23:00:08] <AnEvilYak> so his spell is broken ;p
[23:00:49] <tic> aww, darnit.
[23:00:53] * tic likey windows
[23:01:18] <tic> at least, those that are instances of BWindow! :)
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[23:03:17] <ShackaN> wouldn't it be nice to have Qt in haiku instead of Beos native windowing mechanism ?
[23:03:34] <@AndrewBachmann> mmu_man she says she's not the receptionist because she's was appointed "directory of initial client contact" or something like that
[23:03:42] <@AndrewBachmann> director, rather
[23:04:06] <@Korli> fyysik
[23:04:11] <fyysik> me
[23:04:20] <@Korli> what's up ?
[23:04:21] <fyysik> got once emuxki.log
[23:04:30] <fyysik> when it didn't crash
[23:04:46] <fyysik> dunno if it may be useful for something
[23:04:51] <@Korli> rather annoying
[23:05:42] <fyysik> Korli - is there any importance that SB card has also joystick at it (so io range) ?
[23:05:54] <fyysik> joystick port
[23:06:35] <@Korli> midi port is present on most sb live i think
[23:07:31] <@Korli> maybe you can try to enable interrupts after installing the handler ?
[23:08:54] <fyysik> iirc i tried it..in vain. and now it crashes somewhere in emuxki_setup after write_io_32.
[23:09:02] <fyysik> so before handler install
[23:09:42] <Dr_Evil_> esp again invalid fyysik?
[23:10:09] <fyysik> Korli - is it standard practice, to read nabmbar fro, base_registers[o]  or is there another way?
[23:10:52] <fyysik> Dr_Evil_ it seems that everytime i got crash in emuxki_setup or emuxki_init, esp is wrong
[23:12:07] <Dr_Evil_> geist question: when interrupts happen in BeOS, what stack is used by the interrupt handler?
[23:12:19] <[Beta]> mmu_man: re: FATX ... is there really any point in supporting that as of now ?
[23:12:38] <AnEvilYak> so you can install Haiku on X-Box? ;p
[23:12:44] <[Beta]> in the future, it would be nice; Haiku on xbox \o/
[23:13:15] <@Korli> fyysik did you try to call debugger() in emuxki_setup ?
[23:13:48] <@AndrewBachmann> Dr_Evil_ you can alloc your own stack if you want
[23:14:00] <fyysik> explicitly? dunno how. Only tried to set some panic() calls to check pointers
[23:14:27] <fyysik> Korli btw, maybe my sources are too old?
[23:14:31] <@Korli> debugger("emuxki_setup 1");
[23:14:41] <@Korli> fyysik cvs is current
[23:14:51] <fyysik> all files are dated by 32003
[23:14:56] <fyysik> 2003
[23:15:03] <fyysik> November
[23:15:24] <@AndrewBachmann> there is set_signal_stack and sigaltstack
[23:16:00] <@Korli> fyysik that's right
[23:16:38] <fyysik> Korli - so, first line in emxuki_setup after variable declaration should be that debugger() ?
[23:17:21] <@Korli> fyysik you can call it several times, you should just change the string passed to know where you are in the code
[23:17:39] <fyysik> Korli - and there is little problem without importance, but anyway. include <midi.h> instead "midi.h" or something alike
[23:17:41] <@Korli> type 'c' to continue when in debugger
[23:18:07] <fyysik> ok
[23:18:36] <@Korli> fyysik with our build system, headers search work this way
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[23:22:46] <fyysik> never worked with debugger syntax in BeOS. I suspect i can look at variable values there?
[23:24:16] <fyysik> should copy sources at this machine
[23:24:19] <tic> hrm, I need to learn the evaluation order for boolean statements...
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[23:24:50] <ShackaN> for boolean expressions the evalutation order is not relevant..
[23:24:52] <Dr_Evil_> if (a & 4 || a & 8) works ;)
[23:25:11] <Dr_Evil_> but you never know how the compiler does it
[23:25:43] <AnEvilYak> unless you know the operator precedence rules
[23:25:50] <AnEvilYak> and assume the compiler follows them
[23:26:02] <ShackaN> the compiler should follow them...
[23:26:05] <AnEvilYak> iirc in C the bit ops generally have the higheest priority
[23:26:09] <ShackaN> yes
[23:26:09] <AnEvilYak> ShackaN: keyword: "should"
[23:26:24] <ShackaN> first !, then AND then OR
[23:26:32] <AnEvilYak> I thought ^ was higher
[23:26:51] <Dr_Evil_> AnEvilYak i wasn't talking about operator precedence
[23:26:52] <ShackaN> I didn't mention ^
[23:26:58] <AnEvilYak> but I'm rusty, and I usually use parens anyhow.
[23:27:03] <AnEvilYak> Dr_Evil_: what then?
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[23:27:38] <AnEvilYak> Dr_Evil_: I mean, theoretically the compiler could condense that into a single & ...
[23:27:41] <Dr_Evil_> how the compiler implements the test
[23:27:45] <Dr_Evil_> yes
[23:27:58] <tqh> fyysik should cvs-version of widget and gfx work without patches on trunk? Firefox1.1 seems to have problems launching but don't give good reason why.
[23:28:00] <AnEvilYak> depending on how smart the optimizer is
[23:28:10] <@geist> Dr_Evil_: should be the kernel stack for the current thread
[23:28:21] <@geist> I think it used the pretty standard way of using the current ring0 stack
[23:28:28] <@geist> I *think* they were 8k in size
[23:28:28] <ShackaN> uhm
[23:28:42] <Dr_Evil_> geist so each user thread has a kernel stack. ok
[23:28:44] <ShackaN> geist, so the interrupt handler gets run in a random stack ?
[23:28:52] <@geist> that's correct
[23:28:59] <ShackaN> didn't know that..
[23:29:05] <tic> status = acquire_sem(); if appRunning and status == OK:, as opposed to: if appRunning and acquire_sem() = OK.
[23:29:06] <@geist> and since it might be in kernel space at the time, some of the stack may already be in use
[23:29:12] <tic> inside a while loop, only the boolean would get evaluated.
[23:29:19] <tic> (is that what's called short-circuiting?)
[23:29:32] <@geist> that's a pretty standard way to do it, especially on x86. it's pretty tough to do anything else due to the way the interrupt mechanism works
[23:30:05] <ShackaN> <geist> I *think* they were 8k in size << doesn't stack space grow as needed ?
[23:30:09] <Dr_Evil_> geist ok, thanks. I know you already told me this once, but I didn't remember
[23:30:19] <ShackaN> uhm, wait, not in an interrupt handler...
[23:30:38] <AnEvilYak> ShackaN: stack size is generally fixed afaik.
[23:30:41] <ShackaN> geist, if you run out of stack in a IH, what happens ?
[23:31:02] <ShackaN> AnEvilYak, I read that in most OSes it is not
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[23:31:20] <@geist> ShackaN: the system dies
[23:31:28] <AnEvilYak> ShackaN: well, it's easier to have an expandable stack in userspace than in the kern
[23:31:32] <@geist> the kernel stack does not grow
[23:31:46] <@geist> it's fixed in size, and preallocated, which is why it should be as small as possible
[23:31:53] <tic> o/~ Ich hab' getraumt ich kan fliege wie hoch wie ich will o/~
[23:31:56] <ShackaN> ok
[23:32:19] <ShackaN> tic, did you have a Kafkian experience ? :D
[23:32:59] 
[23:33:04] <tic> I'm not a bug. :P
[23:33:12] <fyysik> ok, now system stucks in find_free_pte
[23:33:14] <ShackaN> :D
[23:33:28] <ShackaN> Benjamin Bluemchen?
[23:34:06] <ShackaN> stupid question, beos is reentrant, right?
[23:34:31] <Dr_Evil_> yes
[23:34:35] <ShackaN> ok
[23:34:40] <ShackaN> I wasn't sure
[23:34:54] <@Korli> ShackaN what does this mean ?
[23:35:21] <ShackaN> basically.. that more kernel threads can be in execution "at the same time"
[23:35:33] <ShackaN> (iirc)
[23:35:46] <AnEvilYak> re-entrancy generally implies that the kernel itself is preemptible
[23:35:47] <@Korli> i>	i didn't know this meaning
[23:35:48] <AnEvilYak> iirc
[23:35:59] <AnEvilYak> at least in this context.
[23:36:38] <@geist> yes, that's all it means
[23:36:40] <AnEvilYak> in userspace it usually refers to several threads being able to make the same call at the same time
[23:36:46] <AnEvilYak> i.e. the _r versions of various syscalls
[23:36:49] <@geist> basically kernel code works pretty much like user code
[23:36:58] <@geist> you can block on semaphores, can be interrupted by interrupts, etc
[23:37:00] <ShackaN> yes, the cpu can interrupt a thread in kernel mode to execute another :) that's what I said, isn't it ?
[23:37:29] <AnEvilYak> ShackaN: the interrupting thread doesn't have to be a kern thread though
[23:37:33] <@geist> only very deep kernel code is non reentrant. ie, if you disbale interrupts and acquire a spinlock you're basically entering a critical section
[23:37:36] <ShackaN> kaN>	k
[23:37:52] <@mmu_man> the kernel is mostly reentrant because it is preemptible
[23:38:09] <@geist> yeah that's a better way to say it
[23:38:13] <ShackaN> do you have the posix synchronization stuff in haiku ?
[23:38:16] <@geist> the kernel is preemptible
[23:38:20] <@geist> and thus reentrant
[23:38:24] <@mmu_man> classical UNIX kernels have a big lock that makes sure only one thing at once is done in the kernel
[23:38:25] <Dr_Evil_> the kernel is preemptible because it is reentrant
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[23:38:39] <@mmu_man> and it is never interrupted until that thing is done and teh syscall exist
[23:38:43] <@mmu_man> exits
[23:38:50] <@geist> right
[23:38:58] <@mmu_man> or the call itself uses (un)interruptible_wait_on()
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[23:39:08] <@geist> well, more like the classic unix kernel just disables interrupts while in the kernel always
[23:39:22] <@geist> and with multiple cpus they had to cram a big lock on it to keep multiple cpus out of it
[23:39:27] <@mmu_man> yup
[23:39:39] <@geist> on a single proc machine it's actually pretty efficient
[23:39:43] <ShackaN> and that's fscking slooow :D
[23:39:54] <@geist> since kernel code doesn't have to deal with locking, the code is simpler
[23:40:03] <ShackaN> uhm
[23:40:03] <@geist> however interrupt latency is pretty high
[23:40:19] <@geist> on a non-interactive system that's not a problem at all
[23:40:25] <@mmu_man> like ohhh I can't hear the music when moving that window in X11
[23:40:31] <ShackaN> hahahha
[23:40:41] <@mmu_man> Linux was like that until recently
[23:40:47] <@mmu_man> *BSD too
[23:40:50] <ShackaN> wow
[23:40:52] <@geist> it's the classic "throughput vs responsiveness" argument
[23:40:57] <@mmu_man> yeah
[23:41:03] <@geist> adding locking and being reentrant is less efficient
[23:41:06] <@geist> but more responsive
[23:41:10] <ShackaN> I'm glad I use linux just since last year :)
[23:41:14] <@mmu_man> and more complex == more bugprone
[23:42:08] <@mmu_man> ok, I should go to bed as sleep isn't a preemptible call I'm afraid
[23:42:16] <ShackaN> :)
[23:42:19] <ShackaN> bonne nuit
[23:42:58] <AnEvilYak> mmu_man: what if we make you a zombie process?
[23:45:23] <w-ber> AnEvilYak: how would that work in this case? Kill his parents?
[23:45:33] <AnEvilYak> w-ber: I dunno
[23:45:40] <AnEvilYak> "You shot zombie flanders!" "He was a zombie?"
[23:45:52] <tic> This is a job far Superdoo!
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