[00:00:06] <slaad> I use it as a People replacement.
[00:00:08] <Azalyn> Anyways, OpenSource always has a way of revolutionizing and innovating. Look at Bittorrent, it's the most revolutionary P2P protocol ever created, and it addresses almost every single problem with traditional P2P with very elegant solutions.
[00:00:18] <slaad> Piffle.
[00:00:27] <[Beta]> anyhow, I really need to transfer system in the backend first - phone syncs with syncml, so that should be easy enough to write a module.
[00:00:27] <Azalyn> But most people dont even know that some of the great software they're using is opensource..
[00:00:28] <BePage> BT is indeed a very nice system
[00:00:33] <Azalyn> Which is kind of sad.
[00:00:55] <Azalyn> I bet a lot of BT users dont even know it's roots are OpenSource. Or even what OpenSource is...
[00:00:59] <[Beta]> BT really isnt that great on slow connections. imho
[00:01:03] <sys2> Azalyn, except the fact that it EATS the connection
[00:01:05] <BePage> of yours
[00:01:12] <BePage> of course
[00:01:14] <sys2> download at half your connection and it eats it all and you can do nothing :P
[00:01:35] <BePage> well if everyone just downloads noone can get anything
[00:01:36] <sys2> its like the old LAN breakers ... start it, start one download and it shutdown the rest of the network like a black hole :P
[00:01:47] <Azalyn> Depends, you can apparently limit the upload low enough that your download speed doesnt suffer, and that it wont screw it up.
[00:02:33] <Azalyn> I like that they made a solution to the selfishness of some users though. Like on other p2p networks, many users will like set their upload to zero, like on kazaa. which kills the community.
[00:02:35] <sys2> Azalyn, its not the up/down speed in bittorrent that is the problem .. its that it eats everything and leaves nothing for the rest. .. it sometimes takes minutes to just resolve an URL for me while downloading with BT
[00:02:44] <Azalyn> But on BT, if your pieces dont get to others fast enough.
[00:02:51] <Azalyn> The client somewhat blacklists you
[00:02:52] <BePage> when uploading 20k/sec I still got 50-70k/sec down
[00:02:56] <BePage> on bigger torrents
[00:03:00] <Azalyn> And you get bad speeds
[00:03:10] <BePage> sys2 than limit upload & download
[00:03:19] <Azalyn> sys2: Really? thats strange..
[00:03:20] <BePage> I never hat trouble with that
[00:03:23] <Azalyn> I've never experienced that.
[00:03:29] <sys2> BePage, does not matter if i make it half my connection up/down it east it all anyways
[00:03:36] <Azalyn> Then again... my connection really is a bit over the top...
[00:03:45] <ShackaN> me neither
[00:03:45] <Azalyn> 4mbit
[00:03:46] <Azalyn> hehe
[00:03:49] <BePage> hehe :)
[00:03:54] <ShackaN> wow
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[00:04:01] <sys2> i usaly down it to like 5kb/s or so while playting games, even ththen it makes the ping hlike 50  - 100 higher
[00:04:01] <Azalyn> thats downstream though
[00:04:09] <Azalyn> upstream is 640kbit i think
[00:04:15] <BePage> still nice
[00:04:20] <Azalyn> 80 in KBytes.
[00:04:34] <Azalyn> er
[00:04:34] <BePage> thats what I can get on download :PP
[00:04:37] <ShackaN> mine is 640/256
[00:04:37] <Azalyn> yeah.
[00:04:46] <BePage> at home
[00:04:59] <Azalyn> Well I use the 'upgrade' plan on my cable line.
[00:05:01] <BePage> sys2 play round-based games :P
[00:05:05] <Azalyn> "Extreme" high speed.
[00:05:11] <Azalyn> As opposed to regular high speed
[00:05:17] <BePage> or is it called turn-based games?
[00:05:26] <sys2> BePage :P
[00:05:39] <sys2> BePage, but i admit it .. telias connections are a bit strange :>
[00:05:46] <BePage> telias?
[00:05:56] <BePage> where are you located?
[00:05:56] <sys2> telia
[00:05:56] <Azalyn> Anyways, I have no doubt that OpenSource will eventually eat up marketshare.
[00:05:59] <sys2> sweden
[00:06:06] <BePage> nice
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[00:06:15] <Azalyn> Corporations have yet to find a way to counter after all this time.
[00:06:20] <frozenet> weirdness
[00:06:20] <BePage> I'm from austria, 4Gbyte traffic-limit a month :/
[00:06:28] <Azalyn> Despite their efforts, they're unable to respond. ;)
[00:06:35] <sys2> BePage, ush ...
[00:06:38] <frozenet> traffic limit stinks
[00:06:40] <frozenet> if anything
[00:06:42] <BePage> yep
[00:06:48] <frozenet> they should make a traffic speed limit
[00:06:55] <frozenet> but not a limit of how much you transfer
[00:06:59] <Azalyn> Even FUD isnt really working anymore.
[00:07:11] <Azalyn> Anyways, I have to eat supper. Be back soon.
[00:07:12] <sys2> i couldnt live with that ... ok maybe now but before i like filled my harddrive once a month (80gb) on a 512kb/s connection :P
[00:07:12] <BePage> but the only other thing I can get here is dial-up where I pay on a per-minute base :/
[00:07:31] <sys2> sad thing tho .. its hard to find a movie i havent seen yet :P
[00:08:03] <BePage> hehe :)
[00:08:16] <BePage> I still have a lot of stuff here :P
[00:08:38] <BePage> I just go to lan-party, 400 people, 100MBit lan, huge backbone, DC++, have fun :)
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[00:09:01] <ShackaN> woooooooq
[00:09:08] <ShackaN> BePage, where's that ?
[00:09:17] <BePage> austria :)
[00:09:31] <ShackaN> I go there almost every summer :D
[00:09:35] <frozenet> where do you have those things?
[00:09:38] <frozenet> LanParties!
[00:09:41] <frozenet> crazy geek people!
[00:09:47] <BePage> :)
[00:09:57] <frozenet> i satisfy my geekness at hom
[00:09:57] <BePage> ShackaN go to austria?
[00:09:59] <frozenet> home
[00:10:02] <ShackaN> BePage, yap
[00:10:07] <BePage> ShackaN where are you from?
[00:10:33] <ShackaN> Ich bin Italiener :D
[00:10:43] <BePage> hehe :)
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[00:10:52] <[Beta]> Is this just wrong, or what? http://www.operajournal.com/images/shots/zeta/apps.jpg
[00:10:54] <BePage> from what city?
[00:11:00] * [Beta] shivers at the gui
[00:11:05] <BePage> hehe :)
[00:11:10] <ShackaN> Ich komme aus Neaples :D
[00:11:28] <frozenet> what's so wrong about it
[00:11:29] <frozenet> WAIT!
[00:11:35] <BePage> I am from a little town that's called "rottenegg"
[00:11:35] <frozenet> where's the tabs?
[00:11:47] <frozenet> why does that look like windows!
[00:11:53] <frozenet> RottenEgg?
[00:11:55] <ShackaN> BePage?
[00:11:57] <BePage> frozenet well yeah :P
[00:12:00] <frozenet> that sounds wrong in english...
[00:12:02] <ShackaN> ernst ?
[00:12:06] <BePage> It's really called that way
[00:12:11] <ShackaN> hahaha
[00:12:24] <ShackaN> und wo liegt das ?
[00:12:27] <BGA> [Beta]: How about this: http://bga.bug-br.org.br/Zeta.png
[00:12:28] <BePage> near linz
[00:12:29] <tic> [Beta], what's wrong?
[00:12:57] <tic> 'cept for the window tabs, it loks fine to me.
[00:12:58] <ShackaN> uhm, BePage, I've never been in the north :(
[00:13:41] <[Beta]> tic; I love the Dano/Zeta GUI.. apart from the "lets make it looks like windows" additions
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[00:13:58] <BePage> I like the R5 one way better
[00:14:32] <frozenet> i find a simple close maximize minimize buttons in the corner useful
[00:14:55] <frozenet> bga is getting #haiku'd
[00:14:56] <BGA> [Beta]: There are no "Let's make it look like windows" changes...
[00:15:04] <@BGA> There are "let's make it customizable" changes.
[00:15:20] <[Beta]> I just dont like it, is all.
[00:16:04] <BGA> [Beta]: Point is, you can make it look any way you want...
[00:16:08] <@BGA> What is there not to like?
[00:16:19] <[Beta]> so why go making a winxp "theme" ?
[00:16:57] <BePage> BGA is this my connection or is bug-br.org.br quite slow today?
[00:17:07] <@BGA> Because someone wanted to?
[00:17:17] <[Beta]> Only reason I can see.. is to stop users from making a botched winxp theme, and new users saying thats why Zeta isnt usable.
[00:17:23] <PeskyGee> Is this OS ready for D/L yet??
[00:17:37] <@BGA> BePage: It is not bug-br.org.br. It is bga.bug-br.org.br, which is this computer I am in wright now.
[00:17:50] <BePage> I see
[00:17:50] <[Beta]> BGA; all the screenies from this article have that decor, its just a shame
[00:17:58] <@BGA> My home computer... And I only have a 256 Kbps upload link. :P
[00:18:07] <BePage> oh
[00:18:10] <BePage> I don't even have a public ip :P
[00:18:33] <BGA> [Beta]: The guy who did the article decided to use those decors. He probably likes it and that's the point. :)
[00:18:51] <[Beta]> BGA: re: Zeta.png - I like everything except InfoPopper, it doesnt look right
[00:19:29] <BGA> [Beta]: Why not? That thing only appears when there is some information to show. It disappears automatically after a few seconds.
[00:19:38] <PeskyGee> I was out at the site but i don't see a downloads area
[00:19:41] <[Beta]> overly large title font, border doesnt fit in with the scheme
[00:19:54] <@AndrewBachmann> hi Dr_Evil vorbis in matroska is still pending
[00:20:03] <BePage> BGA when I look at that screenshot I think it's time to get a new im_kit build
[00:20:08] <@AndrewBachmann> perhaps I'll make a proposal if I can come up with something reasonable
[00:20:14] <@BGA> BePage: Ehehehehehehe... :)
[00:20:25] <[Beta]> BGA: i'm slightly OCD, so even a pixel out and I get unsettled :p
[00:20:48] <BGA> [Beta]: :)
[00:21:10] <@Dr_Evil> AndrewBachmann no problem
[00:21:11] <[Beta]> I do like the little replicant though. when's transparency support coming, heh.
[00:21:25] <BePage> BGA right I tried but every svn package I downlodet was corrupt :/
[00:21:40] <@Dr_Evil> AndrewBachmann I just hoped it was something easy, unfortunately it isn'
[00:21:42] <@Dr_Evil> t
[00:21:56] <slaad> You need to apply the SVG icons to your protocol addons, BGA
[00:22:18] <@AndrewBachmann> well, sharing a codec between two extractors is always interesting the first time :-)
[00:22:22] <slaad> Ewww. Window transparancy.
[00:22:36] <[Beta]> no, replicant transparency.
[00:22:38] <@BGA> slaad: They are using the SVG icons. :P
[00:22:42] <[Beta]> (same thing, but still)
[00:22:56] <BGA> [Beta]: The replicant is not really the problem, Tracker is...
[00:23:07] <slaad> That's not the MSN SVG icon, BGA :P
[00:23:07] <BePage> good night everyone
[00:23:12] <@BGA> It does not have the DRAW_ON_CHILDREN flag set.
[00:23:28] <@BGA> And changing it to have that set would probably make stuff that is not aware of it look weird.
[00:23:45] <[Beta]> true, but I'm still newish to the whole Be thang, so i'll learn the probs
[00:23:46] <@BGA> slaad: That's not the latest build. :P
[00:23:48] <slaad> I say break old stuff
[00:23:54] <slaad> Ah. Lucky for you, BAG
[00:24:04] <@Dr_Evil> AndrewBachmann well, video worked nearly instantly :)
[00:24:45] <@AndrewBachmann> not with ogm it didn't :-)
[00:25:29] <@Dr_Evil> AndrewBachmann perhaps we can use a similar raw format for the vorbis header packets as matroska does, and have both ogg and matroska reader provide it
[00:25:33] <[Beta]> anyone interested in iSCSI support ?
[00:25:34] <@Dr_Evil> idea:
[00:25:50] <@Dr_Evil> int32 packet_count;
[00:26:00] <@Dr_Evil> int32 packet_size[packet_count];
[00:26:11] <@Dr_Evil> uint8 raw packets[]
[00:26:18] <@AndrewBachmann> yeah I was thinking of something like that
[00:26:31] <MikeW> man thats an ugly theme BGA
[00:26:49] <CIA-6> mwilber * current/src/prefs/datatranslations/ (5 files): Continued refactoring. Removed unneeded member variables, renamed members to fit style guidelines, simplified code. Still need to make more style changes, add error checking and comments.
[00:27:06] <@AndrewBachmann> actually we need to make it more like int32 packet_count, int32 packet_size[packet_count] flattened_ogg_packet packets[]
[00:27:31] <@AndrewBachmann> actually, if we have flattened_ogg_packet we can get rid of packet_size since they know their size
[00:29:01] <@BGA> MikeW: What?
[00:30:03] <MikeW> BGA: your deskbar, it looks, er, ever uesd windows 95 :)
[00:30:36] <@BGA> WHat do you mean? My Deskbar has no "theme". It is just the plain old Deskbar.
[00:30:42] <NathanW> hey all
[00:30:48] <@AndrewBachmann> NathanW
[00:30:50] <@BGA> But with SVG icons and the FastLaunch thing.
[00:31:22] <@BGA> NathanW: Hey.
[00:31:58] <NathanW> how goes it?
[00:35:08] <NathanW> The IM Kit is weird
[00:35:11] <NathanW> I gave up on it
[00:35:47] <slaad> Bow before our might, NathanW!
[00:36:05] <NathanW> hehe
[00:36:08] <NathanW> I don't know
[00:36:11] <slaad> PS: What is "weird" about it?
[00:36:17] <NathanW> The UI, mostly
[00:36:25] <tic> there's no real "UI" in the IM Kit. :P
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[00:36:31] <NathanW> well
[00:36:34] <slaad> What UI? There isn't one :P
[00:36:34] <tic> there's an sample im client. ;)
[00:36:38] <NathanW> this is trie
[00:36:38] <NathanW> true
[00:36:39] <tic> slaad, :P
[00:36:40] <NathanW> And that client is strange
[00:36:42] * slaad pets ticster
[00:36:44] <tic> Geniouses think alike
[00:36:46] <slaad> How so, NathanW?
[00:36:47] <tic> (sp?)
[00:36:49] <slaad> Geniuses.
[00:36:55] <tic> slaad, thanks.
[00:37:13] <tic> I actually thought about improving the client a couple of days ago.
[00:37:20] <tic> we need separate identities, password protected.
[00:37:26] <tic> and then people files won't do.
[00:37:32] <NathanW> The big problem I had was with it screwing with my people files -- I fixed some of the bugs
[00:37:32] <slaad> Naw.
[00:37:40] <slaad> I see that as a function of the OS, not the IM Kit, tic
[00:37:44] <slaad> Screwing with people files? How so, NathanW?
[00:37:56] <NathanW> The queries weren't working right
[00:38:00] <slaad> And that wouldn't be the im_client that'd be the im_server
[00:38:07] <NathanW> I think it's just a bfs/Tracker bug
[00:38:11] <tic> slaad, yeah.
[00:38:14] <NathanW> But I don't know
[00:38:18] <slaad> Can you give details?
[00:38:26] <NathanW> I forget :)
[00:38:31] <slaad> Oh, great, fat lot of good you are :P
[00:38:39] <NathanW> It was just creating lots of people files, even for ones that were defined
[00:38:44] <slaad> Sounds like you didn't have indexes set up.
[00:38:48] <NathanW> I did
[00:38:56] <NathanW> It was only for some people files
[00:38:56] <slaad> Orrr... you were originally using a really old version.
[00:39:17] <NathanW> Is 4 months ago "really old"?
[00:39:21] <slaad> Yeah, there was a bug from ages ago ( < R100) where it'd store the im:connections attribute incorrectly.
[00:39:33] <NathanW> hrrrrm
[00:39:36] <NathanW> I'll try it out again
[00:39:36] <slaad> Hrm, not sure when it was fixed.
[00:39:43] <slaad> Have agander at the attributes and see if they're null termianted.
[00:39:51] <NathanW> Any thought about using libgaim and its protocol addons?
[00:40:01] <NathanW> I know there are licensing issues
[00:40:11] <Andrew_Bachmann> Dr_Evil do you have any command line tools for extracting from matroska?
[00:40:13] <NathanW> but...
[00:40:25] <tic> NathanW, why wrap libgaim? easier to just snarf the protocol add-ons directly
[00:40:40] <slaad> Yeah, what tic said.
[00:40:43] <NathanW> That's what I meant, I suppose
[00:40:46] <slaad> Writing a protocol is fairly trivial, NathanW.
[00:40:50] <NathanW> Well, right
[00:40:57] <slaad> I implemented basic online, away, messaging for MSN and AIM in about a week or two.
[00:41:01] 
[00:41:07] <NathanW> right
[00:41:10] <NathanW> Which seems somewhat complicated
[00:41:13] * slaad patooeys at FTs.
[00:41:18] <NathanW> heh
[00:41:24] <slaad> It's not, NathanW. At least in my opinion :)
[00:41:33] <NathanW> ok, ok :)
[00:41:35] <slaad> The complexity comes when you have to start handling multiple connections and redirections and stuff.
[00:41:41] <NathanW> I admit I know nothing :)
[00:41:54] <slaad> And when MSN and AIM randomly disconnect you for NO FUCKING REASON when trying to get buddy icons working.
[00:41:56] <slaad> I mean...
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[00:42:01] * slaad coughs and straightens his tie
[00:42:02] <tic> Hehe :P
[00:42:08] <NathanW> haha
[00:42:53] <NathanW> On a completely random note
[00:42:59] <NathanW> Does anyone know what's happening with ABiword?
[00:43:25] <slaad> Tres annoying. "Hello Mr AIM server, can I have a connection for buddy icons?" "Certainly, here you go! Tell my buddy this password, and tell him Isent you" "Thanks." "Hi Mr AIM Server #2. AIM Server #1 told me to tell you this" "Bugger orf" ":~("
[00:43:51] <NathanW> haha
[00:44:24] <MikeW> Im slightly confused as to why an im kit would be better than letting the client do the server connections themselves
[00:44:39] <slaad> And debugging that sort of thing isn't very fun. *compile* *run* *connect* *talk to my laptop* *get disconnected* *make slight change* Repeat.
[00:45:02] <MikeW> got a lot of networks tied in together. When one changes like msnm, have to update the whole lot
[00:45:05] <slaad> Because it means that you only need an application developer and not a protocol developer, MikeW.
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[00:45:34] <slaad> And no, it means that one file needs to be changed and it propogates through to X clients. Rather than X clients having to incorporate the updates themselves.
[00:46:17] <MikeW> surely a developer worth his salt when making a network app could work with a protocol
[00:46:21] <MikeW> ah yes, standard interfaces make that nice
[00:46:26] <slaad> Perhaps. But why reimplement the wheel?
[00:46:53] <slaad> In that case, why bother with a Mail kit? Or a translation kit?
[00:47:06] <[Beta]> does the imkit have scope for the irc protocol ?
[00:47:13] <slaad> Surely any developer worth their salt can write a decoder for all the media types out there? Or talk POP3, IMAP, etc
[00:47:31] <slaad> It could be done. But I hope to god no one ever does, [Beta].
[00:47:51] <slaad> If anyone ever does, I plan to fly to their house and stab them in the eye with a fork.
[00:47:51] <MikeW> haha, Indigo for Haiku!
[00:47:58] <[Beta]> lol.
[00:48:14] <slaad> IRC in IM programs is the worst idea ever.
[00:48:24] <[Beta]> I dont mean that though slaad.
[00:48:29] <NathanW> this is true
[00:48:38] <MikeW> no, just that trillian sucks monkey balls
[00:48:42] <MikeW> er, well, yes
[00:48:56] <[Beta]> IM Kit is an api for IM, aint it ?
[00:48:58] <MikeW> anyway, I don't see jabber listed as one of the protocols (on bebits)
[00:49:00] <slaad> And GAIM and Miranda and every other multi-protocol IM program that does it.
[00:49:12] <[Beta]> and you just said the IM Kit doesnt really have a client as such
[00:49:33] <tic> exactly.
[00:49:35] <slaad> It is not. Feel free to implement it, MikeW. I dont' use Jabber. No one I know does. We were trying to implement the protocols with the biggest payoff (Hence ICQ -> AIM -> MSN -> Y!)
[00:49:38] <tic> the IM Kit has a server you can conect to.
[00:49:42] <tic> s/conect/connect
[00:50:04] <tic> your apps can subscribe to messages, and send messages themselves.
[00:50:11] <MikeW> haha, I love jabber
[00:50:27] <tic> and the app needn't bother with the specifics of the protocols. instead they just send off a BMessage to im_server and it takes care of the details.
[00:50:29] <slaad> Jabber is a nifty idea.
[00:50:31] <MikeW> so nice when your php apps can use a jabber lib and send you instant alerts when something happens on the site
[00:50:42] <slaad> I've been thinking about making a web client for the IM Kit.
[00:50:49] <[Beta]> tic; so you'd agree its a good idea to get irc support at some point ?
[00:51:01] <MikeW> I roll my own xml and ask it to send it. I get my alert a second later :D
[00:51:03] <tic> [Beta], not really.  How would you easily add that?
[00:51:07] <tic> slaad, yeah.  I think you should.
[00:51:13] <slaad> Or at least something where I have a server and an IM Client that sends your current list and any messages to aserver.
[00:51:17] <slaad> You can then log in and talk to people.
[00:51:35] <slaad> Yeah, maybe post November 23rd, tic.
[00:51:37] <[Beta]> I honestly havent seen the api for the im kit, maybe I should first..
[00:51:37] <tic> [Beta], I mean, you could of course have channels-as-clients somehow.  But I'm not sure how useful.
[00:51:41] <tic> slaad, post? past?
[00:51:55] <MikeW> Oh man I wish I had loads of time to play with this stuff
[00:51:56] <tic> slaad, good idea
[00:51:58] <MikeW> and machines to use it on
[00:52:16] <tic> MikeW, so, I'm still curious as to why you don't think having an IM Kit is a good idea
[00:52:37] <[Beta]> a]>	a small irc client using the imkit would have the advantages of the kit..
[00:52:50] <slaad> Yes. As in "After Nov 23"
[00:53:02] <tic> slaad, understood. :)
[00:53:06] * slaad pets
[00:53:09] <tic> [Beta], what kind of advantages?
[00:53:15] <slaad> Vision, [Beta], Vision.
[00:53:19] <tic> exactly..
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[00:53:35] <[Beta]> vision rubs my back up
[00:53:39] <MikeW> tic: no, I do think it is a good idea! I was just wondering why it was better than authors writing their own support
[00:53:43] <slaad> You sir, are a fruit cake.
[00:53:46] <tic> an app made for person<->person messages would suck beyond belief if scaled up to >1 person.
[00:53:49] <[Beta]> truly.
[00:54:16] <tic> MikeW, right.  You still wonder why it's better to do that, or were you enlightened?
[00:54:18] <slaad> I'm curious, MikeW, do you think the same way about MDR and the Translation Kit, for instance?
[00:54:19] <[Beta]> tic - I didnt say to touch the current im clients at all.
[00:54:33] <BetaMax> [Beta]: Hi  namesake
[00:54:52] <[Beta]> I think not.. you're a defunc casette tape.
[00:54:55] <[Beta]> :p
[00:55:08] * MikeW hides from NathanW
[00:55:11] <tic> MikeW, you say it's better to maintain BeMSN separately from GimICQ, right?
[00:56:11] <[Beta]> hey anyhow.
[00:56:38] <tic> MikeW, so, imagine this:  You want to load an PNG file into your application.  But crap, the developer thought it was more imoportant to deal with image ops instead of supporting PNG files.  So you have to run it through Jpeg2Png first, in order to load the image.
[00:57:14] <tic> MikeW, which basically is the same as spreading out responsibility over all applications that wants a common functionality.
[00:57:23] <BetaMax> but i'm Beta BetaMax Betabel Beet...
[00:57:26] <tic> MikeW, so, extend this to the various IM protocols out there.
[00:57:33] <slaad> Shit. I just put a hole in my sock :~(
[00:57:42] <tic> slaad, err, I totally misread that.
[00:57:48] <MikeW> haha, remind me never to say anything less than positive about a kit when one of the authors is around :)
[00:58:02] <tic> MikeW, no really.  I'm very curious.
[00:58:14] * slaad too
[00:58:23] <tic> MikeW, I really do want to know why it's better to have one or two apps per protocol, instead of a bunch of add-ons all apps can use.
[00:58:38] <tic> Maybe it's something I've overlooked.
[00:59:03] <MikeW> now I've got a question too, does the IM kit allow me to add in further protocols ad-hoc?
[00:59:20] <slaad> Ad hoc?
[00:59:28] <slaad> Define what you mean.
[00:59:28] <tic> MikeW, all protocols are add-ons, if that answers your question, and the interface is well documetned.
[00:59:33] <tic> (+spelling)
[00:59:43] <slaad> There is one advantage, tic, you can use uber-specific features of a protocol.
[00:59:47] <@Dr_Evil> AndrewBachmann I don't have any tools
[00:59:51] <tic> slaad, true.
[01:00:00] <@Dr_Evil> AndrewBachmann I need to leave now, will be back next Saturday
[01:00:09] <tic> slaad, eventually all protocols converge and you'll be able to abstract that stuff out anyway.
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[01:00:26] <slaad> I'm not convinced of that.
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[01:01:19] <tic> MikeW, /boot/home/config/add-ons/im_kit/protocols/AIM and ICQ and MSN and Yahoo.  they're 100% non-dependant on each other, and the IM Kit doesn't really need them either (of course, you won't be able to connect to any networks without at least one of them.).  Now, if you want GaduGadu support? Just add a new protocol add-on, and presto - instant support.
[01:01:30] <tic> now, what did you mean by "ad-hoc" ?
[01:01:43] <MikeW> throw in a file and it works
[01:01:56] <tic> what kind of file?
[01:01:56] <slaad> Indeed.
[01:02:00] <slaad> The IM Kit doesn't know what the protocols are.
[01:02:12] <[Beta]> a]>	a protocol file - please, you two stop being overly mean to MikeW
[01:02:24] <tic> MikeW, an add-on? yeah.
[01:02:25] <slaad> They all just export a class that derives from Protocol
[01:02:26] <tic> [Beta], we're not, really.
[01:02:40] <slaad> We're not being mean. We're just making sure he realises it's not like you could dump in a text file :P
[01:02:44] <slaad> Anyway, Uni
[01:03:07] <tic> MikeW, it's like the Translation Kit.  You want PNG support? Fetch the latest PNG Translator at BeBits, put it in the correct location and you can use it immediately.  Just the same as the IM Kit
[01:03:10] <tic> slaad, moo.
[01:03:20] <MikeW> I run SuperAPP, its a nice gui for the MSN and my own network. It uses the IM kit, but only supports the IM kit, I want to OnInstall add support for my network to the kit. Copy the file into the /addons/im_kit/protocols directory, and there it is
[01:03:49] <tic> what's "OnInstall "?
[01:04:10] <MikeW> [Beta]: Im almost a big boy now, plus I like Mikael, *wink wink*
[01:05:00] <[Beta]> wahey
[01:05:42] <tic> so, SuperApp wouldn't be a "nice gui for MSN", but instead a client to the IM Server.  And, because of that, it'll communicate through whichever protocol is installed.  If you want support for your own spiffy im protocol, just write an IM Kit add-on that handles the communication, and you're set.  That means that UI people can concentrate on making a really cool UI, and those who are into network programming can just work on
[01:05:42] <[Beta]> tic; I guess add the protocol into the pkg(?)
[01:06:22] <tic> Heh.  Have you guys even used IM Kit?  I think everything will become pretty clear once you do so.
[01:06:41] <MikeW> I havn't
[01:07:20] <MikeW> OnInstall, er, when I install my app
[01:07:28] <tic> what app?
[01:07:40] <tic> I think you've mis-understood the architecture..
[01:09:24] <AndrewBachmann> NathanW
[01:09:45] <tic> im_server looks in ~/config/add-ons/im_kit/protocols for add-ons, and loads them. each add-on looks in its settings file and gets the user name and password.  then, im_client is started.  im_client registers with im_server, and therefore get all the messages (and can also send messages).  as default, the im_client doesn't care about which network a user is connected to, instead it just sends to whatever network connection ava
[01:09:53] <AndrewBachmann> do you think windows-1252 is really the best default encoding?
[01:09:57] <tic> MikeW, install im kit.  it'll be a lot easier to undestand.
[01:10:02] <AndrewBachmann> how about iso-8859-15?
[01:10:02] <tic> AndrewBachmann, ISO8859-1
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[01:22:40] <MikeW> tic
[01:22:55] <MikeW> So how are the add-ons used?
[01:23:21] <MikeW> are they compiled applications that just get executed and implement standard interfaces, or what?
[01:23:25] <slaad> No.
[01:23:35] <slaad> They export a constructor for a class that inherits from Protocol.
[01:23:52] <AndrewBachmann> they are shared libraries MikeW
[01:23:54] <slaad> So they all define certain methods. And they also define a "signature".
[01:24:01] <slaad> (ie. "AIM")
[01:24:16] <slaad> So when you message a contact that has an AIM login, it'll use the addon that exports that signature.
[01:25:27] <slaad> ie. fProtocols[senderprotocol]->SendMessage(sender, "Hi buttface")
[01:26:47] <MikeW> ah okay. Do the addons have to be c++ applications?
[01:27:07] <slaad> They aren't applications. Just implementations of a class.
[01:27:12] <slaad> So yeah, they have to use C++
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[01:29:33] <AndrewBachmann> technically add-ons don't have to be c++ applications but some kinds of add-ons do
[01:29:43] <MikeW> :S
[01:29:45] <AndrewBachmann> (if they are supposed to implement a c++ interface for example)
[01:29:52] <slaad> Well, these ones do :P
[01:29:59] <MikeW> thats a shame
[01:30:06] <AndrewBachmann> what's a shame?
[01:30:09] <slaad> Not really. A shame would be to force everyone to use an ugly struct :P
[01:30:17] <slaad> Anyhoo, attempt #2 at getting to Uni.
[01:31:14] <MikeW> a shame that the addon couldn't be written in another language and still be used
[01:31:22] <MikeW> some sort of c++ wrapper
[01:31:42] <AndrewBachmann> well, you could do that
[01:38:11] <tic> MikeW, you don't seem to be a developer, right?
[01:38:40] <MikeW> heh, I do VB.NET, so you are probably right
[01:40:18] <tic> Just wondering.. 'cause if you knew your way around BeOS and C++ you probably wouldn't have asked those questions.
[01:40:23] <tic> (nothing wrong in doing so, of course.)
[01:40:31] <tic> after all, if you don't ask, you'll never know.
[01:40:52] <MikeW> tic: I don't use BeOS
[01:41:23] <tic> MikeW, oh. Thought you did. Well, then it's not so strange you're not accustomed to the idea.
[01:41:32] <tic> beos is highly modular, a lot more so than other operating systems.
[01:42:00] <tic> so the concept of kits is something used pervasively in the OS.
[01:42:05] <tic> anyway, my bed wants company.
[01:42:12] <MikeW> I know the general gist of kits
[01:42:21] <tic> have to give it that now, or it'll be cranky.
[01:42:27] <tic> talk to you some other time. :)
[01:42:28] <tic> install beos!
[01:42:33] <MikeW> I have it installed
[01:42:35] <MikeW> I just don't use it
[01:42:38] <tic> heh.
[01:42:39] <MikeW> no winmodem driver
[01:42:57] <tic> pctel & lucent, actually.
[01:42:58] <MikeW> rebooting takes too long, and windows does everything I wan
[01:42:58] <MikeW> t
[01:43:09] <MikeW> no idea, I got the modem for free
[01:43:09] <tic> anyway, if you really wanted to use beos, you'd get a real modem. they are cheap these days.
[01:43:15] <tic> need to sleep.
[01:43:17] <tic> ttfn.
[01:43:21] <MikeW> nn
[01:43:30] <MikeW> thats quite true, I don't really want to use beos
[01:43:57] <MikeW> because as I said, my current setup works quite nicely. But id like to
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[23:17:16] <Konrad77> fyysik back in Sweden?
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[23:25:37] <fyysik> yup
[23:25:49] <fyysik> enjoying good connect again
[23:26:57] <Konrad77> Nice
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[23:27:13] <Konrad77> Iam doing that too, atleast for downstreams
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[23:30:50] <Konrad77> night
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