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[02:51:13] <GabydeWilde_> can HDT be morphed into a giant search engine? Could something like domain names be implemented?
[02:54:44] <GabydeWilde_> if we can do (hash > torrent > filename) why not something like (keyword > filename > hash > torrent > filename)
[02:54:55] <GabydeWilde_> that might be super slow, it still seems funny
[02:55:07] <GabydeWilde_> forget about old skool servers all together
[02:58:00] <The_8472> DHTs are not well-suited to keyword based searching
[02:58:58] <Nolar> that said, emule does it, so it's definitely doable
[02:59:11] <The_8472> theirs is heavily modified though
[02:59:18] <GabydeWilde_> gnutella tends to serve up an exe file for everything you search
[02:59:19] <The_8472> and designs like cubit seem to be more efficient
[02:59:32] <GabydeWilde_> really funny, it is full of hackers
[02:59:34] <Nolar> sure, but dht-based search is real
[02:59:47] <GabydeWilde_> yes
[03:00:22] <Nolar> doesnt exist for bittorrent though, if that's the q
[03:00:23] <GabydeWilde_> it seems bittorrent provides the tools to validate the file behind the search result?
[03:00:25] <The_8472> yeah... but it's like driving a car running on liquified kittens and babies. sure, it may work, doesn't mean it's the best way to do it
[03:00:41] <Nolar> yum
[03:00:45] <GabydeWilde_> thats like talking about cows while the subject is stools
[03:00:46] <IRConan> The_8472: sounds like a good source of power
[03:01:14] <The_8472> GabydeWilde_, it's called "analogy"
[03:01:30] <GabydeWilde_> this is called irc :)
[03:01:54] <GabydeWilde_> take http://www.nerrot.com/ for example
[03:02:11] <GabydeWilde_> I don't know how it works but it serves up a torrent file for what ever you search
[03:02:21] <The_8472> yes, and?
[03:02:31] <The_8472> i don't see how that has anything to do with a DHT
[03:02:34] <GabydeWilde_> proves it is doable
[03:02:44] <The_8472> no, it doesn't
[03:03:14] <The_8472> it's most likely using a database. which allows for fuzzy searching, indexing and everything
[03:03:29] <GabydeWilde_> quite possibly
[03:03:47] <GabydeWilde_> this is nothing a user cant run on his pc if he wants to?
[03:03:50] <The_8472> a DHT is more like your old kung-fu master. he just sits there stoically and only responds with a terse answer if you ask exactly the right question
[03:04:15] <GabydeWilde_> did you ever use gnutella?
[03:04:21] <The_8472> ....
[03:04:26] <The_8472> it's not about USING things
[03:04:30] <The_8472> it's about how things work
[03:04:42] <GabydeWilde_> things work the way people made them to work
[03:05:03] <GabydeWilde_> unless you believe in god of course :)
[03:05:04] <The_8472> exactly. and a DHT is not made to support arbitrary, fuzzy searches
[03:05:49] <GabydeWilde_> keep the idea in mind, try to see how it can work in stead of trying to find a way to not make it work
[03:05:55] <Switeck> Scaling for getting back "lots" of matches to searches can also get ugly.
[03:06:07] <GabydeWilde_> yes
[03:06:20] <GabydeWilde_> that is probably why it should be made to work really slow
[03:06:29] <Switeck> An "ends of the Earth" search can also be network intensive, yet is mostly transparent to the users.
[03:07:27] <The_8472> <GabydeWilde_> keep the idea in mind, try to see how it can work in stead of trying to find a way to not make it work <- why should i do that? i know that it would be inefficient. so an attempt at an efficient solution should be made instead
[03:07:46] <GabydeWilde_> yes, exactly my point
[03:08:27] <The_8472> then why did you talk about the DHT instead of asking how a distributed search could be implemented?
[03:08:46] <GabydeWilde_> my lack of proper terminology
[03:09:19] <GabydeWilde_> I should have said distributed search, something like DHT was unnesarly confusing
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[03:09:34] <TheSHAD0W> http://www.flutterby.com/archives/comments/12948.html
[03:09:36] * The_8472 wanders away
[03:09:45] <GabydeWilde_> gnutella search
[03:10:34] <GabydeWilde_> the classic debunker act walk away when proving some one wrong for the sake of proving some one wrong is nolonger an option.
[03:10:47] <GabydeWilde_> haha
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[03:11:43] <GabydeWilde_> Switeck: I don't see how a bit of search queries could be network intensive?
[03:11:47] <The_8472> you have no clue what you're talking about. so why are you talking about it instead of first getting some more knowledge on the topic?
[03:12:34] <GabydeWilde_> Switeck: it should probably be limited to matches with files currently distributed
[03:13:42] <GabydeWilde_> full text search would be funny of course :)
[03:14:49] <The_8472> distributed search can be done, there is tons of research material about it and we could probably implement it some way or another if we wanted to
[03:15:01] <The_8472> but nobody really wants it
[03:15:43] <GabydeWilde_> could it perhaps be restricted to people who want their files to be found in this way?
[03:16:05] <The_8472> like spammers and scammer?
[03:16:27] <GabydeWilde_> yes like terrorists
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[03:17:12] <GabydeWilde_> the number of seeds should give a good idea how useful/interesting a file is
[03:17:28] <The_8472> uhhu, and how would you determine the number of seeds?
[03:17:37] <The_8472> in a reliable way that is
[03:18:36] <GabydeWilde_> there is indeed a lot of BS on the bittorrent networks. But if we compare it to people trolling wiki's and forums it is really quite harmless.
[03:19:16] <The_8472> it's "quite harmless" because there's no easy way to automatically publish and distribute spam items to the whole network
[03:19:31] <The_8472> so you're basically asking for something that would be a spammer's paradise
[03:19:43] <The_8472> and that's exactly why nobody really wants a distributed search
[03:19:58] <GabydeWilde_> now ur talkin
[03:20:00] <The_8472> distributed, authored content feeds are a different story
[03:20:13] <The_8472> <The_8472> but nobody really wants it <- i already said so a while ago
[03:20:16] <GabydeWilde_> so we are not talking about distributed search perse but more like filtering out the BS
[03:20:38] <The_8472> yes, and we all know how well spam filters work
[03:20:41] <GabydeWilde_> mandatory webseeding could offer some leverage?
[03:20:48] <The_8472> no
[03:21:26] <GabydeWilde_> distributed spam flagging?
[03:21:46] <GabydeWilde_> I don't mean combined with search
[03:21:58] <The_8472> could be abused/subverted
[03:22:48] <Switeck> In gnutella, each extra hop a search takes requires exponential amounts of bandwidth.
[03:26:06] <Switeck> the searcher doesn't pay those costs, everyone the search/s goes through pay it.
[03:27:55] <GabydeWilde_> I suppose a bittorent enabled site could offer a database dump that could be made to work client side.
[03:29:21] <GabydeWilde_> a simple xml could do the trick <item><title><magnet><description>
[03:29:50] <The_8472> such things already exist more or less
[03:29:58] <GabydeWilde_> yes
[03:30:05] <GabydeWilde_> but only for new items right?
[03:30:16] <The_8472> no
[03:30:27] <The_8472> search integration for clients exists
[03:38:03] <chelz> oh oh, one of my favorite bittorrent-related quotes is relevant
[03:38:47] <GabydeWilde_> what is that chelz?
[03:39:18] <chelz> http://tech.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1010567&cid=25545857
[03:39:41] <chelz> "Bittorrent only does file transfer. All other p2p clients do file transfer and search.  Bittorrent is massively popular. All other p2p clients are struggling to get anyone to use them.  And what lesson do people learn from this? Apparently that Bittorrent needs search. These are hardly the first people to have tried this, and found that nobody wants it."
[03:40:59] <chelz> bittorrent's great strength and weakness is the lack of decentralized search. for better or for worse, it works really well and people clearly prefer it this way, having at least the discovery of file collections (torrents in this case, but theoretically could be things like emulecollection files) to be centralized
[03:41:03] <GabydeWilde_> that makes it someting interesting to think about :)
[03:41:28] <TheSHAD0W> There's a minor accuracy issue in that statement.
[03:41:59] <TheSHAD0W> BitTorrent only does file DISTRIBUTION. All other p2p clients do file SHARING and search.
[03:42:33] <GabydeWilde_> I envisioned this strange phylosophy the other week, if every step forwards is 2 steps back then perhaps a step back can be 2 steps forwards :)
[03:42:50] <TheSHAD0W> And then you do the cha-cha!
[03:43:04] <chelz> TheSHAD0W: good point. i wonder what an accurate term for what bittorrent the protocol and indexers together could be referred to with
[03:43:22] <TheSHAD0W> See...
[03:43:25] <chelz> people tend to talk about the 'bittorrent network' sometimes
[03:43:34] <TheSHAD0W> The indexers, there's nothing special about them.
[03:43:40] <GabydeWilde_> search should not be part of bittorrent. Just like myspace is not part of google search *grin*
[03:43:43] <TheSHAD0W> They might as well point to http servers to download from.
[03:45:14] <chelz> GabydeWilde_: yeah basically
[03:45:48] <GabydeWilde_> I've tried some decentralized wep search engines but they all lack users
[03:46:01] <GabydeWilde_> mostly chinese people on them :P
[03:46:05] <chelz> well they can't use http simply because of copyright issues usually i think and then more rarely, bandwidth issues; although there are some oneclick/ddl sites through indexer forms
[03:46:08] <Switeck> The problem with a distributed network where you can search and download from 1 million users...is in theory 1 million users can search and download from you...all at once!
[03:46:37] <chelz> Switeck: the only things limiting people doing that with bt+tpb is tpb's server's limits :P
[03:47:04] <GabydeWilde_> I have lots of torrents seeded with 1 peer max and 1 connection max :P
[03:47:20] <Switeck> max allowed or max seen?
[03:47:46] <GabydeWilde_> I dunno, all I know is that they get the 3 kB/s and thats it :P
[03:48:06] <The_8472> that's a horrible way to operate things
[03:48:16] <Switeck> BitTorrent works with the long tail of availability. Your 1 peer demand.
[03:48:17] <The_8472> bittorrent performs more efficiently with a few, fast connections
[03:48:27] <GabydeWilde_> sure
[03:49:13] <Switeck> In a general-purpose network, common stuff serves to "crowd out" uncommon files, to the degree that even if the rare stuff remains shared the queue to download it can get bad.
[03:49:55] <GabydeWilde_> I try to keep rare stuff online
[03:50:08] <GabydeWilde_> I wish my client would sort this out btw
[03:50:34] <Switeck> a client has limited ability to predict the future
[03:51:06] <chelz> bep 33: predict the future
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[03:51:23] <chelz> need to propose that on apr 1st
[03:51:25] <The_8472> bep 33 actually exists already
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[03:51:41] <The_8472> if hydri would get to publish it....
[03:51:44] <Switeck> A single slashdot article could in theory trigger huge demand on a previously "unwanted" file/torrent/website.
[03:52:45] <Switeck> Azureus/Vuze probably has the best queue handler for keeping seeded only the most "desperate" torrents.
[03:53:04] <GabydeWilde_> interesting
[03:53:14] <Switeck> But that could mean some torrents may report no seeds when one is available just 1-2 scrapes later.
[03:53:33] <chelz> hence the dht right?
[03:53:46] <chelz> or is that not from tracker overload
[03:53:50] <Switeck> DHT wouldn't even help for what I mean.
[03:53:52] <GabydeWilde_> I dislike how utorrent tends to stick all my bandwith into overly seeded torrents
[03:53:55] <Switeck> it's not even an issue of tracker overload
[03:54:15] <Switeck> The seed gets overloaded and must "triage" which torrents it keeps active
[03:54:31] <The_8472> GabydeWilde_, define "overly seeded"
[03:55:04] <GabydeWilde_> thousands of seeds
[03:55:35] <chelz> ah interesting
[03:55:38] <GabydeWilde_> there is no rule to avoid seeding those for as far as I know
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[03:55:58] <The_8472> the # of seeds is irrelevant
[03:56:04] <GabydeWilde_> it may even be harmful to the swarm speed
[03:56:09] <chelz> Switeck: but the swarm would still function since when a seed is available it would be contacting peers. so the issue is things aren't correctly reported, not that the swarm wouldn't function
[03:56:09] <The_8472> you have to put it into contrast with the # of peers
[03:56:25] <chelz> yeah i'd focus on the ratio rather than counts alone
[03:56:27] <The_8472> if there are 50k peers then 1k seeds means little
[03:56:32] <GabydeWilde_> The_8472:  mah, they obviously don't need my banwith.
[03:56:38] <The_8472> they do
[03:56:48] <GabydeWilde_> I have other torrents to seed
[03:56:52] <GabydeWilde_> can only seed so much
[03:56:55] <The_8472> bittorrent is a content _distribution_ system
[03:56:56] <Switeck> "correctly reported"? when the lone seeder quits (temporarily) because the torrent has no peers, there is no swarm
[03:57:01] <The_8472> so adding bandwidth speeds up the distribution
[03:57:15] <GabydeWilde_> people can wait ;)
[03:57:18] <Switeck> it will unqueue/restart that torrent after a tracker scrape if a peer appears
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[03:57:52] <Switeck> whether they (50k peers, 1k seeds) can gain from more seeds, yes
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[03:58:13] <Switeck> Whether that's the right thing to do in light of other torrents with >100 peers and <10 seeds...I think not!
[03:58:28] <The_8472> |03:59:37| <Switeck> "correctly reported"? when the lone seeder quits (temporarily) because the torrent has no peers, there is no swarm
[03:58:28] <The_8472> |03:59:42| <The_8472> so adding bandwidth speeds up the distribution
[03:58:29] <The_8472> |03:59:53| <The_8472> it's not really meant for concent retention
[03:58:29] <The_8472> |04:00:05| <The_8472> since you can't and shouldn't seed everything at onc
[03:59:11] <chelz> Switeck: oh so worst-case a swarm would be dead only for the length of a scrape window
[04:00:20] <Switeck> in theory, yes
[04:00:35] <Switeck> in practice...probably more typically 2 scrapes
[04:00:53] <Switeck> the seeders may have other torrents/issues to keep them busy.
[04:01:28] <chelz> has anyone done any in-the-wild testing of DHT performance vs top trackers?
[04:01:46] <The_8472> by what performance metric?
[04:02:27] <chelz> how fast it returns usable info for a new peer i guess
[04:02:53] <chelz> that's what i'd be interested in at least
[04:03:11] <The_8472> why? if a torrent is going to download for hours why would a few seconds matter?
[04:05:07] <chelz> oh i don't expect the DHT to be as fast, just how much slower it is. and just for the sake of discussion, say someone is downloading something that would only take a few min to dl instead of a few hours.
[04:05:21] <chelz> a 20MB podcast or installer exe or something
[04:05:31] <The_8472> well, a lookup generally takes less than a minute
[04:05:37] <GabydeWilde_> I'm not entirely sure if it happens but some of the open trackers could start downloading when pinged with something interesting to their owner
[04:05:40] <chelz> that's pretty good
[04:05:42] <The_8472> it's finished in maybe 10-20 seconds in most cases
[04:06:04] <GabydeWilde_> such tracker could add something useful to the swarm
[04:06:20] <Switeck> DHT will be horribly slow to match a the top trackers in terms of numbers of peers/seeds
[04:06:20] <The_8472> GabydeWilde_, i sense that you have no clue what you're talking about
[04:06:30] <Switeck> but you probably mean DHT + PEX.
[04:07:10] <GabydeWilde_> The_8472: I was seeding a torrent no one was interested in, I added some extra trackers for the lulz then one of them had a seed that started downloading the file
[04:07:11] <Switeck> Even then, there will be a couple pockets of ips that the tracker/s may list that get ignored (sometimes) by DHT and PEX.
[04:07:20] <chelz> something that might be good to keep in mind is satisfying trigger-happy users that are given a choice between a magnet link and an http link are given info in UIs such that starting a magnet link clearly shows what it's doing, so they feel they're not waiting unnecessarily; in the interests of making users prefer magnets over https
[04:07:37] <Switeck> (firewalled peers/seeds for instance are not normally passed along via PEX at least by some clients)
[04:07:41] <GabydeWilde_> The_8472: I was seeding the torrent for months so it seems unlikely they couldn't find it before
[04:08:05] <The_8472> GabydeWilde_, that's because some torrent aggregators merge tracker lists from various sources. this has nothing to do with "trackers" "downloading" things (which is a non-sensical statement)
[04:08:38] <Switeck> some of those merging of lists also contain fake, repeated, or now-dead ips.
[04:08:43] <GabydeWilde_> you should find a new hobby, try something that doesn't involve people.
[04:08:45] <GabydeWilde_> lol
[04:08:51] <The_8472> chelz, there's no real interest in doing so. magnets are nice, but if they want to use http downlaods that's fine too
[04:09:37] <The_8472> GabydeWilde_, huh? being right has nothing to do with being friendly.
[04:09:52] <GabydeWilde_> I hear model trains is nice
[04:09:53] <The_8472> i see no need to be nice to a person who annoys me with their half-knowledge
[04:09:53] <Switeck> If everyone was getting filenames by hash -> magnet -> filenames automatically, an unintended side-effect is many people would have ever-increasing amounts of their upload bandwidth spent uploading .torrent files to random requests.
[04:10:03] <chelz> The_8472: in the interests of democratizing distribution i would prefer people using p2p over hammering servers. not everyone has access to big servers with bw to spare
[04:10:34] <The_8472> chelz, in that case they can use magnets exclusively, which wouldn't give the user a choice.
[04:10:50] <chelz> The_8472: yeah that's probably the way to do it
[04:11:00] <The_8472> i just mean that there is no need to convert users to using magnets when http alternatives are provided.
[04:11:40] <Switeck> It would seem a bandwidth savings to download a 100 KB .torrent file from a http website as opposed to having to do a DHT search to find it.
[04:11:43] <chelz> Switeck: running kademlia in my personal experience always takes up around 5-10 kbytes/sec all the time for anything really
[04:11:56] <chelz> The_8472: yeah that makes sense
[04:13:23] <The_8472> a completely DHT has some baseline traffic... but most of the load scales with the usage. so if the DHT would be used for more things then the required bandwidth would increase too
[04:14:06] <chelz> i'm all for providing such a small amount of bandwidth so the overall network can function
[04:14:17] <chelz> kademlia is such a great thing
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[04:19:29] <The_8472> alus, could you poke hydri? he still hasn't managed to publish it... and it has been a month now...
[04:19:54] <alus> publish what?
[04:20:01] <The_8472> bep 33?
[04:20:06] <The_8472> dht scrapes
[04:20:13] <alus> oh, ok
[04:20:15] <alus> hydri: poke
[04:20:17] <alus> ;)
[04:20:19] <TheSHAD0W> Pretty close though...
[04:20:39] <The_8472> hrm?
[04:21:00] <TheSHAD0W> dht scrapes = predicting the future
[04:21:10] <The_8472> heh
[04:21:21] <TheSHAD0W> Both are pretty hazy...
[04:21:44] <The_8472> well, on paper it works...
[04:22:32] <TheSHAD0W> On paper, communism works too.  :-P
[04:22:59] <The_8472> yes, but it needed a large-scale experiment to figure out why it didn't work in practice :P
[04:26:29] <GabydeWilde_> interesting topic
[04:26:48] <GabydeWilde_> I know some russians who say communism didn't work because it required to many calculations back then
[04:27:23] <GabydeWilde_> trying to get X boots on location Y in Z days was to manual-labor intensive
[04:28:23] <GabydeWilde_> they are wrinting software to do it now :)
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[04:30:21] <GabydeWilde_> the interesting bit is that they spend lots of resources optimizing the system back when computation was a big deal.
[04:33:22] <GabydeWilde_> something perhaps entirely different, on projects like wikipedia, forums, bittorent etc there is a huge problem with people sending crap data for a whole list of reasons. In contrast this problem didn't seem to exist or be addressed back in the book days.
[04:34:55] <GabydeWilde_> but this is the bittorrent channel, sorry about that ;)
[04:35:26] <GabydeWilde_> I was wondering why one would have to seed a torrent to make the torrent file available.
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[04:37:10] <Switeck> isn't that the definition?
[04:37:23] <Switeck> to "make available", the torrent has to be seeded?
[04:38:04] <Switeck> And not just a started torrent among 100's of other started torrents...for it to be available to others, they have to be able to download it reliably in a reasonable amount of time.
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[04:38:46] <GabydeWilde_> say you are distributing your hash
[04:38:58] <GabydeWilde_> why would my client not give you that small torrent file?
[04:39:30] <GabydeWilde_> in stead I just forward the request now?
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[04:40:45] <GabydeWilde_> all you really wanted was the file name, size and tracker list?
[04:41:32] <GabydeWilde_> 15-200 kb?
[04:42:11] <Switeck> what if 100's are doing that per minute?
[04:43:01] <GabydeWilde_> if I set upload limit to 0 kB you wont even get the torrent file
[04:43:08] <Switeck> If 100 are doing it to your client for a largish 100 KB .torrent file, that's 10 MB/minute.
[04:43:27] <GabydeWilde_> huh?
[04:43:41] <GabydeWilde_> We are distributing hash tables anyway?
[04:43:49] <GabydeWilde_> If you have the file, why not give it?
[04:44:01] <Switeck> because in the case I'm describing...you can't
[04:44:33] <GabydeWilde_> you are suggesting this must mean all torrent files enjoy this setting?
[04:45:05] <Switeck> untangle that phrase and ask again. XD
[04:45:36] <GabydeWilde_> what if seeding could be set to be limited to torrent file only?
[04:45:44] <GabydeWilde_> wouldn't that speed things up dramatically?
[04:45:51] <Switeck> I'm suggesting it could devolve to that
[04:46:30] <Switeck> Would shared .torrent files be limited just to those that are currently active, those that are queued, or even those the client has stopped?
[04:47:09] <GabydeWilde_> Those you set to be made available I guess?
[04:47:22] <Switeck> I'll ask again...WHAT do you mean by "made available"?
[04:47:23] <GabydeWilde_> a specific setting
[04:47:45] <GabydeWilde_> upload speed > .torrent only
[04:47:47] <Switeck> almost nobody individually checks the "DHT this torrent" box for each torrent.
[04:48:14] <GabydeWilde_> I quite often select lots of torrents and apply settings to them
[04:48:21] <GabydeWilde_> you should try it, it's lovely :)
[04:48:26] <Switeck> I guess you're a nobody :P
[04:48:31] <Switeck> it's a rare event
[04:48:48] <Switeck> I regularly do specific settings to torrents and groups of torrents
[04:48:55] <GabydeWilde_> you could configure it to apply to stopped torrents
[04:48:56] <Switeck> But I almost never use DHT.
[04:49:21] <GabydeWilde_> if you are not planning to help distribution they shouldn't be in the client
[04:49:22] <Switeck> What if you have 1000+ very popular torrents? What are the odds you get a magnet link request on one?
[04:49:31] <Switeck> no
[04:49:42] <Switeck> I have my own reasons for adding stopped torrents to my client
[04:49:53] <GabydeWilde_> you are a nobody to!
[04:49:55] <Switeck> and I have my own reasons for not running DHT.
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[04:49:56] <GabydeWilde_> hihihi
[04:50:08] <Switeck> very many people fail to download or stop torrents.
[04:50:11] <GabydeWilde_> why are you not running DHT?
[04:50:19] <Switeck> some don't enable DHT, or are forced to disable it
[04:50:26] <Switeck> I am one of them.
[04:50:58] <GabydeWilde_> Why is that?
[04:51:15] <Switeck> I am an ex-BearShare beta tester, and a refugee from the Gnutella network
[04:51:26] <Switeck> I've *SEEN* what uncontrolled searches can do.
[04:51:53] <Switeck> And my "million people trying to download from you at once" isn't just a jest.
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[04:52:57] <GabydeWilde_> ahh so you are just bitching about DHT in general. Ok, point taken. :)))
[04:53:13] <Switeck> I have my upload maxed out with sufficient overkill without DHT
[04:53:21] <Switeck> I do not see how enabling DHT will lessen that
[04:54:15] <GabydeWilde_> I found the idea rather questionable myself but I didn't knwo enough about it and people keep asuring me it works wonderfully
[04:55:09] <Switeck> I'm sharing 2+ GB size torrents where even the addition of 10 more peers represents days worth of uploading.
[04:55:20] <Switeck> They want those torrents, they get them from the tracker...NOT me.
[04:55:39] <Switeck> (the .torrent files themselves I mean)
[04:55:50] <GabydeWilde_> yes
[04:56:11] <Switeck> a couple of the torrents were stupidly made with smallish piece size, so they have 5000+ pieces
[05:00:32] <GabydeWilde_> It would be nice if we could make distributed dynamic content.
[05:00:42] <GabydeWilde_> I bet The_8472 loves that idea :))))
[05:00:59] <Switeck> as if DHT (or other parts of BitTorrent) aren't busy enough already!
[05:01:07] <GabydeWilde_> lulzz
[05:01:08] <Switeck> To me, it's like squeezing blood from a stone.
[05:01:21] <GabydeWilde_> I like a good puzzle
[05:01:24] <Switeck> or an opportunity cost.
[05:01:39] <Switeck> You increase overheads, you decrease yield.
[05:02:24] <GabydeWilde_> I read google was going to experiment with ultra high bandwith networks, do you perhaps have any idea how fast that will be?
[05:02:26] <Switeck> lots of people are heavily using RSS feeds
[05:02:49] <Switeck> maybe some search potential there without tapping into DHT?
[05:03:20] <GabydeWilde_> yes, could just use rssowl and add the feeds
[05:03:35] <Switeck> I know there's work being done to make standardized 100 gbit/sec fiber optic lines with >1 km range.
[05:05:10] <Switeck> And in a few places, people can already get 1 gbit/sec (download only sometimes) internet connections for "affordable" prices.
[05:05:59] <GabydeWilde_> the Koreans use to have fast internets compared to the rest, not sure how fast this is today
[05:06:35] <GabydeWilde_> I remember looking at webpages with many hundreds of 1+ mb images on them
[05:08:38] * GabydeWilde_ thinks about shooting DVD's though air evacuated maglev tubes :)
[05:08:40] <Switeck> I go to a few websites that offer 'virtual tours' of buildings, landmarks, sights.
[05:09:05] <GabydeWilde_> those are pretty bandwith intensive?
[05:09:08] <Switeck> They seem to use (was shockwave, now Adobe) Flash.
[05:09:25] <Switeck> yes, at least for initially loading.
[05:09:53] <GabydeWilde_> html5 video seems to be quite a leap forwards compared to flash video
[05:09:59] <Switeck> google world is bandwidth intensive too.
[05:10:19] <Switeck> It's not hard to be a leap forwards compared to flash video.
[05:10:28] <GabydeWilde_> lol
[05:10:28] <Switeck> ...at least as YouTube has them.
[05:10:56] <GabydeWilde_> google chrome has a process manager that really exposes what bloated crap flash really is
[05:10:58] <Switeck> the software's bad, the video quality is often terrible.
[05:11:37] <Switeck> What about streaming bittorrent video files?
[05:12:08] <GabydeWilde_> Streaming is for people wiht 3 min attention spans
[05:12:35] <GabydeWilde_> like consumers
[05:13:07] <Switeck> I cannot imagine bittorrent streaming scaling, except for the lowest bitrate videos that have huge demand...and many people not streaming on it.
[05:13:37] <GabydeWilde_> I did have a vision for it
[05:13:50] <Switeck> streaming pushes heavy bittorrent downloading into peak evening hours (instead of downloading overnight).
[05:14:12] <GabydeWilde_> It started when I converted a video to a mini resolution
[05:14:33] <GabydeWilde_> it went from well over 1 GB to 40 MB
[05:14:49] <GabydeWilde_> the 40 MB lecture was surpricingly watchable
[05:15:19] <GabydeWilde_> so I suggested to the theora peoples that the first 40 MB should really make the entire 1 GB video watchable
[05:15:28] <GabydeWilde_> :)
[05:16:00] <GabydeWilde_> streaming only sucks if the playback start stuttering
[05:16:31] <GabydeWilde_> currently you can have 99% of a video while it still isn't playable
[05:16:33] <Switeck> you're thinking from your point of view only
[05:16:52] <GabydeWilde_> 40BM/1+GB is of course a radical example
[05:16:54] <Switeck> streaming can suck for seeders
[05:17:05] <GabydeWilde_> 40MB/1+GB is of course a radical example
[05:17:25] <GabydeWilde_> but if we take old skool Tee Vee with the snow feature
[05:17:37] <GabydeWilde_> that works just fine if the signal vanishes for 1 or 2 seconds
[05:18:03] <Switeck> many video programs now can repair minor file damage
[05:18:12] <Switeck> or can just skip those parts
[05:18:28] <GabydeWilde_> yeah
[05:19:17] <Switeck> either it's reading the index for the video or finding page frames...or something more exotic, I haven't really studied it.
[05:19:18] <GabydeWilde_> I have one torrent about a former KGB guy that requires me to restart the avi every time the sound vanishes
[05:20:03] <GabydeWilde_> it works just fine starting it at a point beyond the audio vanishes
[05:20:11] <GabydeWilde_> the theora people suggested it would be easy to buffer the entire audio first for example.
[05:20:30] <GabydeWilde_> then can skip a frame without the audio fucking up
[05:21:02] <GabydeWilde_> A matching protocol for bittorent would be to have 2 kinds of chunks.
[05:21:08] <GabydeWilde_> high and low priority
[05:21:35] <GabydeWilde_> then the high end connections can watch the same stream as the dialup equavilent
[05:21:46] <GabydeWilde_> and both can help distribute
[05:22:27] <GabydeWilde_> A month ago I noticed that DVD quality torrents are often faster than the small verson.
[05:22:27] <Switeck> low priority has to be a clever subset of high...or you end up having 2 separate streams which are related in name only.
[05:22:35] <GabydeWilde_> Those swarms are many times faster
[05:22:38] <Switeck> faster what?
[05:22:45] <Switeck> lower pingtimes?
[05:22:59] <GabydeWilde_> I start the same video on 2 torrents
[05:23:09] <GabydeWilde_> one is 600 MB the other is 2.5 GB
[05:23:23] <GabydeWilde_> the later one is finished first
[05:23:35] <Switeck> So if they both download at 100 KB/sec, one is still faster at getting 500 MB of the torrent?
[05:23:53] <GabydeWilde_> the 600 MB video is seeded by people with shit connections
[05:24:09] <Switeck> at least that's your theory XD
[05:24:25] <Switeck> or does the 2.5 GB one simply have more peers/seeds?
[05:24:27] <GabydeWilde_> the 2.5 GB is seeded by people who can afford hdtv's
[05:25:10] <GabydeWilde_> the 2.5GB swarm goes 2000 kB/s the other one sits at 20-80 kB/s
[05:25:54] <Switeck> your upload?
[05:25:57] <GabydeWilde_> So it makes sense to have a codex that has first and second priority data
[05:26:14] <GabydeWilde_> I upload tits for tats
[05:26:20] <Switeck> doubtful
[05:26:39] <Switeck> tit for tat in my experience is almost always the exception rather than the rule.
[05:26:42] <GabydeWilde_> yes, that was what I thought
[05:27:04] <GabydeWilde_> it of course varies dramatically per instance
[05:27:08] <Switeck> seeds want nothing, many peers have nothing to give
[05:27:37] <GabydeWilde_> Azures has something called "interesting to peer"
[05:27:46] <GabydeWilde_> I've never seen it working
[05:28:30] <GabydeWilde_> But a seed for say 1984 could like Brave new world.
[05:28:52] <GabydeWilde_> people don't watch tutorials 1 to X at a time either
[05:29:28] <GabydeWilde_> but in general you are right, tit for tad seems hoplesly broken :P
[05:31:23] <Switeck> no, it's not that tit for tat is hopelessly broke...it simply doesn't apply a lot of the time.
[05:31:35] <GabydeWilde_> lol
[05:32:11] <Switeck> On private trackers which have 100 seeds per peer, quite likely a peer won't even connect to another peer...let alone have parts to TFT.
[05:33:05] <GabydeWilde_> that seems wrong doesn't it?
[05:33:10] <Switeck> If there's a (very?) slow seed on a large torrent, all the "old" peers end up having the exact same % complete...so new peers can download from anyone.
[05:33:11] <GabydeWilde_> it wastes bandwith
[05:33:46] <GabydeWilde_> what I hate is how some clients prefer the webseed
[05:33:49] <Switeck> New peers incorrectly get the impression that the torrent will download "very fast" till lead pipe of harsh reality hits when they catch up to all the other peers.
[05:34:39] <Switeck> If anything, DHT would only seem to attract more new peers. :P
[05:34:58] <Switeck> And if the seed is stupidly set to upload to everyone at once, the more join the worse it gets...
[05:35:14] <GabydeWilde_> lol
[05:35:46] <Switeck> Even if the seed has reasonable upload slots, the question becomes: does the seed upload a complete piece to each peer before switching to other peer/s?
[05:36:02] <Switeck> With 4 MB piece size, the answer is almost certainly no.
[05:36:40] <Switeck> And nothing besides the swarm itself knows the availability
[05:36:51] <Switeck> for individual pieces
[05:37:16] <Switeck> ...If the swarm is very large, total awareness is impossible.
[05:39:29] <GabydeWilde_> What I find really surpricing with so many people stealing content is that there aren't more projects like Starwreck.
[05:39:50] <Switeck> stealing content?
[05:39:58] <Switeck> you mean so nobody else can download it?
[05:40:20] <GabydeWilde_> you knwo what I mean
[05:40:29] <GabydeWilde_> 11 year old pirates :P
[05:41:10] <GabydeWilde_> Small studios really have no chance breaking even in this climate so going Open source/freeware seems the road to go?
[05:41:32] <GabydeWilde_> Starwreck was obviously a great movie
[05:41:47] <GabydeWilde_> Don't you agree?
[05:41:53] <Switeck> no I don't agree
[05:42:05] <GabydeWilde_> you didn't like it?
[05:42:06] <Switeck> on 11 year old pirate somehow stealing content...they're not that smart
[05:42:18] <GabydeWilde_> yeah, I know, I agree with you
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[05:42:22] <Switeck> I've never seen Starwreck to comment about it.
[05:42:29] <GabydeWilde_> oh, you should
[05:43:17] <GabydeWilde_> http://www-fi.starwreck.com/media/switp/star-wreck-in-the-pirkinning.torrent
[05:43:26] <GabydeWilde_> great movie 100% free
[05:43:31] <Switeck> You steal something off a shelf in a store, the store inventory probably still claims it's "in stock"...when it's not. Someone downloads content off the internet without explicit "signed-in-blood" permission from the devil himself, the content still exists.
[05:44:18] <GabydeWilde_> sure, but my point was that we still need people to make awesome films :)
[05:44:25] <Switeck> yes
[05:44:49] <Switeck> and apparently throwing ever increasing amounts of money at filmmakers does not seem to help them make more and more awesome films.
[05:45:10] <GabydeWilde_> Their true intend is starting to be exposed
[05:45:18] <GabydeWilde_> things like promoting the military
[05:45:30] <Switeck> when was that ever hidden? XD
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[05:46:17] <GabydeWilde_> for example..
[05:46:18] <GabydeWilde_> The makers of Starwreck and the fanbase have been contacting Tee Vee studios for years now but only a hand full actually bothered to broacast it.
[05:46:49] <GabydeWilde_> The film is of great quality
[05:47:19] <GabydeWilde_>  The film took seven years to make
[05:47:30] <Switeck> The risk of being snowballed with groundless court cases tends to run off TV stations. parody isn't always tolerated.
[05:48:11] <Switeck> And not getting proper permissions (see above for an example) is a deadly sin.
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[05:48:21] <GabydeWilde_> I think they got the legal stuff all sorted out
[05:48:58] <Switeck> Who said anything about the court cases being fair or legal?  SLAPP suits: Strategic Lawsuits Against Poor People.
[05:49:58] <GabydeWilde_> We need distributed gunman
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[05:51:38] <GabydeWilde_> The media is all about mass brainwashing and having the subjects pay for it
[05:51:56] <Switeck> replace the "Play" button with the "Pay" button.
[05:52:37] <GabydeWilde_> I tend to put at least some of the blame on the willing victims
[05:52:45] <GabydeWilde_> Stokholm syndrome
[05:54:00] <Switeck> Even BitTorrent client makers has some (small) risks of being hit with SLAPP suits over copyright infringement...especially if their home is in the USA -- like BitTorrent Inc.
[05:54:24] <GabydeWilde_> Cant we do the same?
[05:54:38] <Switeck> you'd get out-lawyered.
[05:54:40] <GabydeWilde_> Now that we have M$ and GOOG on our side?
[05:54:57] <Switeck> Even Microsoft's afraid of big media.
[05:54:58] <GabydeWilde_> Seems they are about to get woopassed
[05:56:18] <Switeck> so a bittorrent client claiming 'dumb carrier' defense...deciding to identify torrent data files, read video codecs, determine their bitrate, and stream them... there may be additional SLAPP suits inbound.
[05:58:52] <GabydeWilde_> I have lots of ideas to make their lives into hell on earth but I would prefer people made their own films :)
[05:59:31] <GabydeWilde_> There is a rich supply in homelss people who could all have their own bittorrent website. lulzz
[06:00:32] <Switeck> It's pretty hard to have much of an internet presence without an internet connection...or internet access on a regular basis (from libraries maybe?)
[06:00:56] <GabydeWilde_> you would pay one to sign the contracts
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[06:12:27] <GabydeWilde_> could make it more general, make a donation system for people who start torrent websites :P
[06:12:54] <Switeck> a legal defense fund?
[06:13:03] <GabydeWilde_> yes
[06:13:50] <GabydeWilde_> the attom bomb of file sharing would be to find a way of monetizing it the correct way.
[06:14:02] <GabydeWilde_> supporting the homeless community would be something like that
[06:14:07] <Switeck> atom bombs tend to destroy things...
[06:15:12] <GabydeWilde_> about the media war with goog and MS fignting against mainstream indoctrination. I laughed when Billy The Gates started promoting safe nuclear energy.
[06:15:38] <GabydeWilde_> That is one of those subjects the media loves to avoid
[06:16:56] <GabydeWilde_> cuz it spells F.R.E.E.D.O.M in with a big F
[06:21:06] <GabydeWilde_> I just installed Halite and dropped something like 400 torrents in it
[06:21:13] <GabydeWilde_> it worked smoothly
[06:21:50] <GabydeWilde_> nice client
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[13:23:54] <GabydeWilde_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_of_distribution
[13:38:06] <alus> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Existential_fallacy
[13:40:36] <GabydeWilde_> good fun isn't it?
[13:40:46] <charles> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_fallacy
[13:41:44] <GabydeWilde_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-purchase_rationalization
[13:43:00] <GabydeWilde_> this article missing from the wiki has something funzy to it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authority_bias
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[18:08:54] <erkan^> why doesn't work a pirate bay.org?
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