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[00:37:08] <bramm> great, erdgeist is still idling
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[00:40:16] <TheSHAD0W> I bet utorrent is feeding ips to both the utp and tcp connection routines; the tcp routines are trying x connections at a time due to Windows' half-open limit, while the utp routines are just going *blurp* connect to everyone NOW!
[00:45:41] <IRConan> TheSHAD0W: pretty much
[00:45:52] <IRConan> as far as I've been led to believe
[00:46:59] <TheSHAD0W> That's actually not a good thing.
[00:47:06] <TheSHAD0W> It's potentially partitioning the cloud.
[00:47:08] <IRConan> I know
[00:47:29] <TheSHAD0W> Bram: What do you think?
[00:52:59] <IRConan> it's certainly a bad thing in the private tracker world
[00:53:10] <IRConan> users of other clients not using uTP can't seed
[00:53:17] <IRConan> or will find it harder
[00:56:58] <DreadWingKnight> as if they didn't have a hard enough time trying to compete with seedboxes
[00:59:35] <The_8472> PEX ftw
[00:59:41] <The_8472> oh wait, private trackers ^^
[01:00:51] <IRConan> The_8472: PEX wont help... we're talking that non-uTorrent clients and uTorrent ones will have difficulty creating connections with one another
[01:01:13] <The_8472> that does not apply to incoming connections
[01:01:36] <The_8472> just because they establish outgoing ones faster doesn't impose any "difficulty" for incoming connections
[01:01:44] <Nolar> incoming utp handshakes would be faster :)
[01:01:53] <Nolar> and fill up connection limits
[01:02:14] <The_8472> proper PEX has anti-clustering :P
[01:03:10] <Nolar> that help make the right attempts in the first place, but doesnt solve the utp-always-wins-because-its-the-first-foot-through-the-door
[01:03:15] <The_8472> i'm just saying that PEX + optimistic disconnects causes a lot of mixing.
[01:03:48] <IRConan> indeed but this is a less than ideal situation regardless
[01:04:10] <Nolar> ya, would be interesting to see how much utp vs tcp clustering there is in the real world
[01:04:23] <The_8472> well, on private trackers its probably worse
[01:04:29] <Nolar> agreed
[01:04:30] <The_8472> especially since they encourage flash crowd dynamics
[01:04:35] <Nolar> and they seem to care the most
[01:04:49] <The_8472> like.... 100 seeds trying to rape that poor single peer just connecting to that torrent
[01:05:24] <Andrius> and the poor single peer doesn't have a connection that could download fast enough from ONE seed...
[01:05:39] <The_8472> so they're basically complaining about problems they cause on their own, as usual ^^
[01:09:27] <The_8472> ohhhhhhhh
[01:09:40] <The_8472> i have a nice (partial) solution to some of the ratio crap on private trackers
[01:10:07] <The_8472> give credit for uploading on a torrent. give (small) negative credit over time for announcing a torrent that you're not uploading to
[01:10:47] <The_8472> => seeding good, within reason
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[01:16:33] <kjetilho> what?  punish people who keep old material alive?
[01:17:01] <The_8472> no
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[01:17:06] <The_8472> they can keep it in their queue
[01:17:15] <IRConan> that doesn't work for where there's no demand for a seeder
[01:17:16] <The_8472> there just no need to seed it when ther's no taker
[01:17:35] <The_8472> if a peer arrives the tracker will update the scrapes and they can seed, quite simple
[01:17:45] <IRConan> hmm...
[01:17:54] <The_8472> it only curbs overseeding torrents that don't need it
[01:17:55] <kjetilho> doh.  what's the point?  is there any difference between using scrape and announcing?
[01:18:11] <The_8472> slowing things down, preventing flash crowds
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[01:18:39] <The_8472> it also prevents seedboxes from overwhelming anyone else's upload
[01:18:44] <kjetilho> that's what gets me about those ratio enforcing maniacs: they prefer to slow down downloads!
[01:18:50] <The_8472> they can't be everywhere at once, otherwise they get punished for it
[01:18:54] <kjetilho> seedboxes are *good*
[01:18:58] <kjetilho> they *help* people
[01:19:13] <The_8472> sure, they do
[01:19:21] <The_8472> but they don't need to lurk on every single swarm
[01:19:32] <IRConan> my favourite thing about private trackers is that there are seedboxes on everything meaning I can get stuff fast if I want it
[01:19:33] <kjetilho> if they have the capacity, why not?
[01:19:35] <The_8472> they should lurk where they can actually help
[01:19:40] <Switeck> private trackers are like a game of Calvin Ball -- rules change and don't necessarily match reality.
[01:19:41] <The_8472> waste of resources of course
[01:20:02] <kjetilho> that's for the seedbox operator to decide
[01:20:29] <The_8472> <IRConan> my favourite thing about private trackers is that there are seedboxes on everything meaning I can get stuff fast if I want it <- i can do that on public torrents too. 2x 1Gbit symmetrical at the university. given enough upload public torrents work just fine
[01:20:49] <The_8472> kjetilho, wasting the tracker's resources? hammering peers to shove in some extra upload?
[01:20:50] <IRConan> true... but it's not as common
[01:21:02] <The_8472> well, if you don't have the upload don't complain about slow downloads ^^
[01:21:08] <The_8472> that's my opinion
[01:21:19] <kjetilho> wasting tracker resources?!
[01:21:32] <The_8472> running hundreds of torrents at a time, yes
[01:21:32] <kjetilho> it's one entry, and it's a *good* entry
[01:21:33] <Andrius> The_8472, you have connection with good upload speed, don't you?
[01:21:51] <The_8472> Andrius, no. the one i have here at home is horrible
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[01:23:49] <The_8472> but yes, all that ratio accounting is asinine
[01:24:28] <The_8472> if you got seedboxes shoving down gigabytes of data everyone's throat then other people can't build ratios and get punished for that
[01:24:40] <Andrius> your "solution" of seeding only when there are leechers doesn't really work unless everyone uses it
[01:24:45] <The_8472> bittorrent itself only enforces fairness when needed, i.e. in the absense of seeds
[01:25:02] <Switeck> and even then, not fully
[01:25:14] <The_8472> Andrius, well... they're so great on enforcing things... it's just one more rule
[01:25:47] <bramm> the real solution is for everyone to just use uTP
[01:25:49] <bramm> ahem
[01:25:57] <Switeck> incidentally, many private trackers spam seed ips TO seeds.
[01:26:00] <Andrius> or stop using private trackers
[01:26:36] <Andrius> Switeck, intentionally or just because tracker admins are idiots?
[01:26:45] <IRConan> ^ my question
[01:26:47] <Switeck> the latter of course XD
[01:26:49] <bramm> seriously though, I can imagine situations in which a new peer winds up only having uTP connections because they close so much faster, and if enough peers really have only those it could become a problem under some circumstances
[01:26:49] <The_8472>  <bramm> the real solution is for everyone to just use uTP <- wrong. the real solution is to get it into TCP stacks.
[01:26:54] <IRConan> I'm currently developing a tracker...
[01:26:59] <IRConan> for a private site
[01:27:08] <Switeck> uTP is no solution for private trackers
[01:27:11] <bramm> but the number of caveats I just said make me not terribly worried about it
[01:27:12] <IRConan> one of the features is intelligent peerlist generation
[01:27:24] <bramm> what are you people bullshitting about private trackers and utp?
[01:27:57] <IRConan> bramm: it basically seems to be being prioritised in peer selection because of max halfopen limits
[01:27:57] <The_8472> oh, i'm just on one of my private trackers are managed by idiots trips ^^
[01:28:00] <bramm> 8472, how many times do I have to tell you that we're in the process of getting utp-style congestion control into TCP? Does your brain have some trouble comprehending this concept?
[01:28:02] <Andrius> bramm, we're just ranting about private trackers as always
[01:28:26] <The_8472> bramm, then why would you tout it as "real solution" when you're obviously working on the real solution already?
[01:28:37] <Nolar>  <Switeck> private trackers are like a game of Calvin Ball  <<<< awesome reference :)
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[01:29:10] <bramm> because the real solution is available today while the real real solution will probably take a few years to wind through the beurocratic standardization processes
[01:29:34] <Andrius> Nolar, it's only awesome when you get it :(
[01:29:52] <The_8472> well... "the real solution is causing problems for others. but that's no problem for us, so they just have to adopt it too!"
[01:29:55] <DreadWingKnight> IRConan: the only good optimization you can do at a tracker level is to not give seeds to other seeds
[01:29:58] <The_8472> what kind of logic is that?
[01:30:39] <IRConan> DreadWingKnight: I'm also sorting peers by "left" to provide peers with lots to share to peers with little on small swarms
[01:30:45] <The_8472> DreadWingKnight, and not handing out the same peers repeatedly
[01:32:17] <Nolar> Andrius http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calvin_and_Hobbes#Calvinball
[01:32:34] <The_8472> bramm, also. just because i repeat myself does not mean you have to insinuate that i have trouble with comprehending things. not everyone may have heard them yet after all. so i suggest you refrain from trying to sneak personal attacks under the radar when they're unfounded
[01:33:30] <DreadWingKnight> IRConan: I'd call sorting peers by left (either way) a bad idea
[01:35:41] <DreadWingKnight> there are too many factors to consider that the tracker simply doesn't have ANY information on to judge wether to give a peer to someone or not outside of the "no seeds to other seeds" thing
[01:36:10] <The_8472> e.g. selective downloading
[01:36:53] <The_8472> PEX normally fixes most tracker screwups, but that's not given on private trackers. so in order to maintain randomized swarms the tracker has to provide randomized peer lists
[01:37:43] <The_8472> otherwise you can quickly end up with clustering, bipartite graphs or some other harmful swarm structure
[01:39:04] <IRConan> hmm... interesting point
[01:39:08] <Switeck> I've seen super-busy torrents on trackers that flag them intentionally as "private"...once you finish downloading, uploading becomes near impossible because finding peers is extremely hard.
[01:39:26] <Switeck> on public trackers I mean
[01:39:39] <Switeck> It's like the worst combination of public/private possible :P
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[01:46:58] <IRConan> 00:33:09 < The_8472> DreadWingKnight, and not handing out the same peers repeatedly <--- this would be good but not easy
[01:47:59] <The_8472> well, it's not really necessary
[01:48:15] <The_8472> the more peers there are the less likely it'll become that you select the same ones at random
[01:48:29] <The_8472> and the fewer peers there are the less it matters since peers will be fully connected anyway
[01:49:05] <The_8472> i guess there's a window above the max # of connection for most peers where it could matter
[01:49:20] <The_8472> but being random is more important than being non-redundant
[01:49:48] <The_8472> if you haven't gotten enough peers with an announce... just wait for others to connect to you
[01:50:05] <The_8472> unless you haven't forwarded your port
[01:50:14] <The_8472> but in that case you already lost the game on private trackers anyway
[01:50:15] <IRConan> in which case you should just sort that out
[01:50:57] <The_8472> what you can do is testing peers for reachability
[01:51:20] <IRConan> and not send unconnectible to unconnectible...
[01:52:11] <The_8472> not send unconnetible, period.
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[01:53:05] <IRConan> oh... ofc
[01:55:41] * The_8472 pokes hydri
[01:55:44] <The_8472> you forgot something
[02:24:17] <bramm> 8472, utp *might* be causing problems, all I see here is speculation
[02:24:36] <TheSHAD0W> I'd love to check the source code, but...
[02:24:38] <TheSHAD0W> :-P
[02:24:57] <bramm> you can run all the real world tests you want :-P
[02:25:06] <TheSHAD0W> Mmm.
[02:25:41] <TheSHAD0W> Can't do it on this machine, too much stuff running.
[02:26:11] <DreadWingKnight> netgear routers might be blowing up
[02:26:14] <DreadWingKnight> as are dlink
[02:28:36] <Andrius> that's not a bad thing, maybe it will encourage people to get real routers instead of some weird box which can't really do anything
[02:29:28] <DreadWingKnight> belkins have been bad for long enough with tcp
[02:30:44] * IRConan uses a debian box to route
[02:30:45] <Nolar> pretty much most home/office gateways have issues imho
[02:31:33] <bramm> and utp might be causing headaches, drowsiness, and nausea.
[02:32:10] <The_8472> sounds like radiation sickness
[02:32:34] <Nolar> dht would probably use up more table entries
[02:32:53] <The_8472> seriously though, from what i've heard it's not exactly trouble-free
[02:33:01] <DreadWingKnight> the WRT54GL with good firmware (read: not linksys-issue) it's not TOO bad
[02:33:27] <The_8472> i have a gl here with dd-wrt, it fares quite good with 5 DHT nodes running
[02:33:30] <Nolar> i have wrt54gl at home, running linux firmware :)
[02:33:34] <The_8472> and 6to4 and teredo
[02:34:16] <The_8472> the 6to4 mappings are the worst, since they neither fall under udp nor tcp conntrack but some generic entries
[02:34:40] <The_8472> and it has no NOTRACK traget -.-
[02:34:49] <Andrius> I have a network cable plugged into my network card, works with any kind of load
[02:35:19] <Switeck> Incidentally, uTorrent v1.8.x will attempt Teredo/IPv6 at its bt.connect_speed rate of 20 connections per second while its TCP peers/seeds are tried up to the net.max_halfopen limit of 8. (Default values listed!)
[02:35:23] <The_8472> Andrius, if everyone had that kind of network setup we would be quite happy ^^
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[02:36:19] <Switeck> In a private tracker environment, this would likely created fast-connecting IPv6 clouds/swarms...which are heavily uTorrent clients. (Does Vuze and Transmission support this?)
[02:36:21] <The_8472> Switeck, does windows count ipv6 connections towards its half open limit?
[02:36:27] <Switeck> of course not
[02:36:47] <Switeck> at least for Teredo/IPv6, they're UDP
[02:36:59] <The_8472> no, they aren't
[02:37:14] <DreadWingKnight> regular IPv6 isn't udp
[02:37:14] <Switeck> my bad then XD
[02:37:28] <Switeck> native IPv6 isn't udp true :P
[02:37:29] <DreadWingKnight> the tunnels are
[02:37:32] <The_8472> terdeo is just tunnled over UDP
[02:38:11] <The_8472> anyway, private trackers == no pex, no dht == significantly less ipv6 connectivity
[02:38:21] <The_8472> you have to live on the handshakes (which we do support)
[02:38:54] <The_8472> but we're not setting the socket protection thingy on teredo sockets (no such API in java)
[02:39:12] <The_8472> so it's mostly outgoing teredo or fully reachable 6to4
[02:39:29] <Switeck> http://forum.utorrent.com/viewtopic.php?id=57989
[02:40:21] <The_8472> yeah, handshakes
[02:40:41] <The_8472> not really useful without PEX
[02:40:46] <The_8472> since you can only use it for reconnects
[03:01:55] <TheSHAD0W> http://panopticlick.eff.org/
[03:11:39] <The_8472> that thing doesn't work
[03:11:55] <The_8472> i tested myself several times and each time i became less... unique
[03:12:02] <The_8472> despite having the same IP, browser and all
[03:13:15] <The_8472> ... just press F5
[03:14:16] <The_8472> only one in 31,651 browsers have the same fingerprint as yours.
[03:14:17] <The_8472> one in 28,774 browsers have the same fingerprint as yours.
[03:14:30] <The_8472> one in 26,376 browsers have the same fingerprint as yours.
[03:14:37] <TheSHAD0W> Probably not storing IP, so it's re-checking.
[03:14:42] <The_8472> one in 24,348 browsers have the same fingerprint as yours.
[03:14:43] <The_8472> ...
[03:15:11] <The_8472> well, that makes their "database" pretty useless if it's not eleminating redundant entries
[03:15:30] <TheSHAD0W> Yeah, but it's a security issue if they keep your IP.
[03:15:40] <The_8472> they could keep a hash of it
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[03:16:05] <TheSHAD0W> Calculating 4 billion hashes isn't that big a deal any more.
[03:16:11] <The_8472> salt it
[03:16:19] <TheSHAD0W> Then they couldn't match it.
[03:16:32] <Andrius> I don't really see your issue here, it doesn't show random stuff if I refresh
[03:16:34] <The_8472> you'd just have to match it against all salts
[03:16:46] <TheSHAD0W> Then it's still calculable.
[03:17:12] <TheSHAD0W> Hm.
[03:17:19] <TheSHAD0W> Unless you salted it with the response data...
[03:17:41] <The_8472> Andrius, the point is that it does not provide meaninful numbers since they're not cleaned of redundancies
[03:17:54] <The_8472> if pressing F5 even dilutes the set
[03:18:40] <The_8472> the number decreases because i am counted against the previous me's
[03:19:16] <The_8472> so it basically underreports uniqueness, exactly the thing that it's meant to report
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[08:32:33] <fjl9> Hey guys, small question: is it advisable downloading multiple large torrents (let's say about 5 of them -- about 50 GB each) simultaneously? the disk having to write things like that makes me wonder if downloading each individually one at a time would be a better idea
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[10:15:08] <DaveInPhx> hi, anyone awake?
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[11:12:36] <mpl> bleh, does it happen to you guys that sometimes you find out a bug in your own code which looks so obvious that you keep on wondering if it is really a bug or if you had a reason at the time to do it that way...?
[11:13:33] <DreadWingKnight> might have come up like twice
[11:13:48] <Andrius> I usually find out it wasn't a bug after I "fix" it
[11:14:12] <Andrius> if I'm very lucky there's even some obscure comment why this should be the way it is
[11:16:27] <kjetilho> mpl: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unusual_software_bug#Schroedinbug
[11:16:38] <mpl> heh
[11:17:52] <mpl> kjetilho: well fortunately I found that one by rereading by code, not by testing.
[11:18:07] <mpl> s/by/my/
[11:19:17] <mpl> and the code was working because it actually never hit that case I'd wager :)
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[11:42:56] <Balsaq> i witnessed a guy installling and activating w7 ultimate on ypu tube...using a bittirrent
[11:44:19] <DreadWingKnight> and?
[11:44:42] <Balsaq> can it be burned to a dvd like a real w7 os?
[11:44:55] <DreadWingKnight> I don't see how that's an appropriate question for here
[11:45:08] <Balsaq> ok?
[11:45:13] <Balsaq> never been here
[11:45:23] * DreadWingKnight points at the channel topic
[11:46:44] <Balsaq> i am very much interested in bittorrent
[11:47:57] <Balsaq> i have my own w7 laptop already but it did not come with a w7 operating disk
[11:48:23] <DreadWingKnight> that is something you need to bring up with your manufacturer
[11:49:46] <Balsaq> its seems like bittorrent offers a solution to this issue, seems like a logical train of thought
[11:50:48] <DreadWingKnight> considering that your computer CAME with 7, I doubt it's that logical
[11:50:55] <DreadWingKnight> and we don't "offer" that solution
[11:53:12] <DreadWingKnight> content available via bittorrent is NOT offered by us
[11:53:22] <DreadWingKnight> and is not necessarily sanctioned by us
[11:57:28] <Balsaq> so bittorrent is just the software that makes it all possible.
[11:58:08] <Balsaq> what is a sanctioned use of bittorrent?
[11:58:41] <kjetilho> ask your lawyer
[11:59:05] <Balsaq> ?
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[12:02:35] <chelz> haha
[12:02:50] <chelz> ' installling and activating w7 ultimate on ypu tube...using a bittirrent'
[12:03:05] <chelz> awesome
[12:03:22] <Balsaq> maybe it was a hoax? newbie to all this?
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[12:25:13] <khole> hello all
[12:27:34] <Balsaq> welcome to BitTorrent khole
[12:28:25] <khole> speaking of ... bittorrent is really doing a number on this ddwrt wrt54g v8 in client mode here
[12:28:56] <khole> it looks funny blinking and all
[12:30:26] <khole> so , bittorrent on freenode...
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[12:37:25] <chelz> good talk
[12:38:00] <Balsaq> dadgum driveby's...
[12:44:21] <Balsaq> well, its been a real pleasure doin business with y'all but all good things must come to ane end...
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[13:33:54] <henrikl> I'm trying to get some stats out of opentracker (tpbs, bencoded), but the infohashes look very strange (e.g. "\xaf\x9ety\xd3a\x8a\x1b\x1b\x89T\xee@\x8b\xb6\x1d\xbb!\xfa\xa5"). Any ideas on how I can get those over to a "readable" string?
[13:41:03] <Andrius> infohash isn't a readable string
[13:41:07] <DreadWingKnight> is that the raw data or the stuff pre-parsed by whatever you're using?
[13:58:24] <henrikl> DreadWingKnight: It's the data I got from running the raw stuff through bencode.bdecode (Python lib)
[13:59:06] <Andrius> henrikl, what do you expect infohash to look like?
[13:59:22] <henrikl> DreadWingKnight: Here's the entire thing: http://dpaste.com/159892/
[13:59:46] <DreadWingKnight> ok, that's parsed, not raw
[14:00:15] <henrikl> Andrius: I was thinking more like the SHA1-rep of the infohashes. But if I run these infohashes through sha.new(s).hexdigest(), I still couldn't match them to the ones stored in the db.
[14:02:43] <henrikl> DreadWingKnight: Here's the raw data: http://dpaste.com/159893/
[14:03:40] <DreadWingKnight> the raw data looks right
[14:03:55] <DreadWingKnight> so something in your parser is doing stuff wrong
[14:04:25] <henrikl> DreadWingKnight: Weird.. Do you have the ability to check the raw data in your parser?
[14:04:48] <henrikl> I've tried three different parsers, all give the same representation
[14:06:37] <DreadWingKnight> try the dumptorrentcgi.php from DeHackEd's tracker package
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[15:18:07] <TheSHAD0W> http://www.clickorlando.com/news/22568860/detail.html
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[19:08:45] <alus> A9: sorry I was away. was your questioned answered?
[19:08:49] <alus> er, question
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[23:36:17] <Balsaq> http://download.cnet.com/uTorrent/3000-2196_4-10528327.html?tag=mncol
[23:36:38] <Balsaq> is this a good bittorrent software program?
[23:42:59] <semaphore> utorrent is fine, yeah
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[23:49:00] <DreadWingKnight> I would get it from their official site rather than cnet
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[23:54:27] <Balsaq> is that i good way to avoid spyware? (official sit)
[23:55:37] <Balsaq> is that a safer way to download, from the official site...or is it better software?
[23:55:53] <DreadWingKnight> safer way to download it
[23:55:59] <Balsaq> ty
[23:56:09] <mpl> Balsaq: not only spyware, but non official site rarely provide means of verifying the integrity, like an md5/sha1 sum.
[23:56:26] <Balsaq> o
[23:56:36] <Balsaq> thats a biggie
[23:56:59] <mpl> not that ppl check hashes anyway...
[23:56:59] <Balsaq> now if i only knew what that was...
[23:57:26] <alus> haha
[23:57:52] <alus> mpl: why would a malicious site not just include the md5/sha1 of their hacked binary?
[23:58:10] <mpl> alus: true.
[23:59:55] <mpl> alus: still, you can use the hash also to check for integrity in general, ie that the download went fine, not only for malicious additions.





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