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[02:03:35] * GabydeWilde_ slaps MarkProffitt with a large file cabinet
[02:09:53] <TheSHAD0W> ...
[02:29:34] <MarkProffitt> GabydeWilde, what do you want to fix in BitTorrent trackers?
[02:38:14] <GabydeWilde_> I dont want to "fix" anything.
[02:39:14] <GabydeWilde_> I was wondering if it would be possible to ping each tracker 1 time with the whole list of torrents so that we can add hundreds of trackers to each torrent without DDOSing the internets.
[02:40:34] <K`Tetch> why would you want to add hundreds of trackers
[02:40:38] <K`Tetch> what would be the point?
[02:40:39] <GabydeWilde_> And some protocol so that we can see some one is looking for a file that we are not seeding but do have.
[02:40:54] <GabydeWilde_> to make everything available on all trackers
[02:41:19] <GabydeWilde_> there are open trackers now with just about nothing on em.
[02:41:25] <K`Tetch> if everyone has 10 rtackers ont heir torrent, the peers on trackers, 2-10 are EXACTLY THE SAME as on tracker 1
[02:41:51] <K`Tetch> I don't think you understand how bittorrent works
[02:42:29] <K`Tetch> well, actually it's not quite true
[02:42:50] <K`Tetch> there would be less peers on trackers 2 through 10, as not all clients support multi-plce tracker torrents
[02:42:53] <GabydeWilde_> K`Tetch shoots foot :P
[02:43:11] <K`Tetch> but any peer available from tracker 2-10, is available from tracker 1
[02:43:21] <K`Tetch> some of the peers on tracker 1, wont be on 2-10 though
[02:43:43] <GabydeWilde_> why would we want to route everything though the top 5 trackers?
[02:43:52] <K`Tetch> why use trackers at all
[02:43:55] <The_8472> fewer trackers is better than more trackers. as the number of trackers increases you either increase the overall tracker traffic or you split swarms
[02:43:55] <K`Tetch> DHT+PEX
[02:44:00] <The_8472> neither is useful
[02:44:07] <The_8472> exactly
[02:44:31] <GabydeWilde_> so I make a torrent and you can download it straight away?
[02:44:35] <GabydeWilde_> seems unlikely
[02:45:28] <The_8472> no, that's exactly how it works
[02:46:26] <GabydeWilde_> you are telling me a tracker doesn't make any difference?
[02:46:41] <The_8472> not a significant one anyway
[02:47:07] <MarkProffitt> tracker introduces clients to each other so they can start sharing
[02:47:34] <K`Tetch> did you think the trackers actually hosted things?
[02:47:59] <GabydeWilde_> you are trying really hard to not understand me?
[02:48:27] <K`Tetch> we can only work from a common-sense understanding of what you've written
[02:48:31] <GabydeWilde_> why do people run trackers?
[02:48:38] <GabydeWilde_> what is the point?
[02:48:40] <K`Tetch> if there's any misunderstanding, its because of what you've said and how you've said it
[02:48:56] <TheSHAD0W> Gaby: I don't think you understand what BitTorrent is meant to do.
[02:49:01] <TheSHAD0W> It is not a file sharing protocol.
[02:49:08] <TheSHAD0W> It is a file DISTRIBUTION protocol.
[02:49:10] <K`Tetch> because not all clients can use DHT, because people like the stats, because a lot of people still have hardware that can't handle DHT
[02:49:31] <TheSHAD0W> People use it for "sharing", and this is actually a misuse of the protocol.
[02:49:33] <GabydeWilde_> great, now we are making progress :)
[02:49:52] <The_8472> ...
[02:50:13] <GabydeWilde_> TheSHAD0W: Who put you in charge? lol
[02:50:14] <TheSHAD0W> The original design of BT is, you want to distribute a file but don't have enough server bandwidth, so you set up a tracker, and seed a torrent through that tracker.
[02:50:48] <The_8472> GabydeWilde_, seniority and experience did.
[02:50:49] <TheSHAD0W> Gaby: I'm not in charge, Bram Cohen is.  His design was set out in a paper he wrote about the protocol.
[02:51:04] <TheSHAD0W> http://bittorrent.org/bittorrentecon.pdf
[02:51:12] <GabydeWilde_> yes, I know all this.
[02:51:17] <GabydeWilde_> thanks
[02:51:28] <The_8472> then you wouldn't ask those questions
[02:52:21] <TheSHAD0W> It's his fault!
[02:52:24] * TheSHAD0W points at MarkProffitt
[02:52:36] <GabydeWilde_> good point shadow
[02:52:40] <The_8472> anyway. for statistics fewer trackers are better. DHT frying the hardware doesn't matter much as long as you can still use pex. and as for clients not supporting DHT... they usually don't handle multiple trackers well either
[02:52:48] <GabydeWilde_> it is all to blame on MarkProffitt
[02:53:00] <GabydeWilde_> see? Eventually we can agree on everything.
[02:53:20] * MarkProffitt scowls
[02:53:25] <GabydeWilde_> lol
[02:53:41] * GabydeWilde_ points at monitor and laughs
[02:53:55] <MarkProffitt> so hearing the same thing 4 times from 4 different people finally made sense?
[02:54:29] <GabydeWilde_> not really, you just dont have any vision. But it's ok, I cant blame you for this.
[02:54:50] <The_8472> ...
[02:54:51] <The_8472> STFU
[02:54:53] <The_8472> ty
[02:54:59] <MarkProffitt> The "problem" you are trying to fix was already solved with trackless
[02:55:01] <TheSHAD0W> Gaby: As someone who has written tracker code, I cringe when I think about a huge cloud of peers hitting my tracker.  The idea is to lighten the load, not make it worse.
[02:55:26] <GabydeWilde_> yes, that was what I was THINKING about.
[02:55:29] <TheSHAD0W> Let trackers share peer info and have the peers distribute the load between trackers, rather than hitting them all together.
[02:56:17] <TheSHAD0W> Very few people run dozens of torrents at the same time, and adding code to handle that situation really doesn't improve bandwidth utilization; it just makes the program more complex.
[02:56:57] <GabydeWilde_> it would only work for "sharing" rather than "distributing"
[02:57:09] * MarkProffitt has a development suggestion for BitTorrent
[02:57:13] <TheSHAD0W> Uh oh.
[02:57:18] <GabydeWilde_> o noes!
[02:57:38] <GabydeWilde_> MarkProffitt you should go to the bittorent channel and propose it there.
[02:57:47] <GabydeWilde_> they will love it.
[02:57:56] * TheSHAD0W headdesks
[02:58:17] * GabydeWilde_ distributes the love
[02:58:18] <TheSHAD0W> Okay Mark, let's hear it.
[02:59:04] <MarkProffitt> Proposal: intergrate tracker into Apache, and a client into Mozilla so that webpages can be seeded from the cache.  This will eliminate the slashdot effect
[02:59:25] <GabydeWilde_> you mean google wep accelerati
[02:59:26] <TheSHAD0W> It's been proposed, and somewhat worked on.
[02:59:29] <GabydeWilde_> didn't work
[02:59:47] <TheSHAD0W> mod_torrent.
[03:00:05] * MarkProffitt proposed it in 2004
[03:00:27] <TheSHAD0W> I started coding up something similar a while back; called it "twink".
[03:00:30] * MarkProffitt looks at TheSHAD0W
[03:01:23] <MarkProffitt> OK, so any developer other than Shad0w want to work on it?
[03:02:33] <TheSHAD0W> I gave up on it because it really needed integration into web browsers to work right, and I dislike Java.
[03:02:56] <GabydeWilde_> I've looked a bit at it also
[03:03:00] <The_8472> *cricket* *cricket*
[03:03:09] <GabydeWilde_> java could be one level of support
[03:03:16] <MarkProffitt> If I can get people to code it I might be able to get money for them
[03:03:22] <GabydeWilde_> could also do opera unite maybe perhaps
[03:03:59] <GabydeWilde_> and a seperate app for the real fanboys
[03:04:28] <GabydeWilde_> if a cookie holds the file path a website could access a folder
[03:04:43] <MarkProffitt> Anyone running hosting services, especially shared or big traffic sites would want to use it
[03:05:02] <MarkProffitt> It would work best out of the cache
[03:05:46] <MarkProffitt> It could be written and a plugin to Mozilla but it would be better to have in in the main ap
[03:06:07] <MarkProffitt> mod_torrent for Apache
[03:06:21] <GabydeWilde_> could start with video?
[03:06:22] <MarkProffitt> plugin for Mozilla and IE
[03:06:49] <TheSHAD0W> Let me see if I can find the old spec I wrote for it.
[03:06:51] <TheSHAD0W> Very simple.
[03:07:09] * MarkProffitt smiles
[03:08:09] <TheSHAD0W> http://pastebin.com/m6a1c46d7
[03:08:55] <TheSHAD0W> It might be better to put a twink compatibility flag in a http request header instead.
[03:09:36] <GabydeWilde_> the problem with webaccelerator was that poorly coded sites would allow access to member areas. Hashing would fix that I suppose.
[03:09:43] <TheSHAD0W> Well.
[03:09:54] <TheSHAD0W> My concept is this would only be used for static content.
[03:10:28] <TheSHAD0W> It would be useful for iframes and images, where the web content itself would be outside of the archive.
[03:11:04] <TheSHAD0W> This is an active service, requiring web pages to be designed to use it, rather than a site-independent overlay.
[03:11:47] <MarkProffitt> I think the best design would not require anything from the pages other than be static
[03:12:26] <MarkProffitt> server side includes of other static content would be acceptable
[03:12:43] <TheSHAD0W> I should rewrite this to work internal to http, rather than outside of it.
[03:14:29] <TheSHAD0W> Could eliminate the tracker, do it all as part of the web server.
[03:14:38] <TheSHAD0W> Probably be just like mod_torrent.  :-P
[03:18:44] <MarkProffitt> Does it make sense that the URL is the torrent ID ?
[03:19:25] <TheSHAD0W> A checksum is necessary if you're trading data between peers, and the checksum is probably shorter than the url, so...
[03:20:30] <GabydeWilde_> you invented the web seed :)
[03:20:49] * TheSHAD0W grins
[03:21:24] <MarkProffitt> So the browser hit the page and requests the conent, including the images and other files on the page.  The server recognizes the client is Bittorrent enabled so it hands the checksums and connect it to a client
[03:21:42] <TheSHAD0W> Right.
[03:21:55] * MarkProffitt invented it, he's just been trying to get Shad0w to build it
[03:21:56] <TheSHAD0W> Let's not use the term "BitTorrent", this would be a different protocol.
[03:22:17] <GabydeWilde_> people have been talking about this for about 15 years.
[03:22:23] <TheSHAD0W> LOL
[03:23:25] <MarkProffitt> would it be a different protocol or just a wrapper on BitTorrent?
[03:23:32] <TheSHAD0W> Different protocol.
[03:24:19] <TheSHAD0W> You can't have a huge payload for a web page, so splitting it up into pieces isn't necessary.
[03:24:19] <MarkProffitt> I trust you, but I'm thinking that once the file is identified its just BitTorrent
[03:24:44] <MarkProffitt> ah, OK
[03:24:51] <TheSHAD0W> BitTorrent is too complicated, requires too much overhead.  Should be simplified for this purpose.
[03:25:13] <Nolar> how do two downloaders connect to each other?
[03:25:26] <Nolar> if they are web browsers
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[03:25:57] <TheSHAD0W> My design used enhanced browsers, or software that the browsers proxied through.
[03:26:20] <K`Tetch> enhanced broswers? So basically opera then :-P
[03:26:27] * TheSHAD0W shrugs
[03:26:28] <GabydeWilde_> correction, people have been talking about this for 30 years. lol
[03:26:45] <GabydeWilde_> in the 80's at Bell Labs
[03:27:23] <MarkProffitt> browser plugin, or native to the browser
[03:28:10] <MarkProffitt> If it did use Bittorrent then that would kill two birds with one stone
[03:28:54] <TheSHAD0W> Mark...
[03:29:14] <TheSHAD0W> It would've been possible to do everything on the internet using FTP, which was invented before HTTP.
[03:29:20] <TheSHAD0W> Possible != good.
[03:29:38] <GabydeWilde_> can have the legacy server beefed up by the powerz of freenet
[03:29:40] <The_8472> ftp? gopher!
[03:29:45] <GabydeWilde_> haha
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[03:29:54] <MarkProffitt> Archie
[03:29:56] <GabydeWilde_> gopher ftw!
[03:31:56] <MarkProffitt> On the client side some of the files get shared by multiple pages so they don't have to be redownloaded.  That is one reason to not glom a page together
[03:32:49] <TheSHAD0W> No...  Instead, you'd glom together the files needed as elements for a set of pages, and send them all in one shot.
[03:33:07] <TheSHAD0W> Anyway.
[03:33:26] <TheSHAD0W> I need to get out of this chair before my legs fall asleep, lose circulation and turn into rotting meat.
[03:33:42] <TheSHAD0W> Have fun.
[03:33:47] <GabydeWilde_> http://gitorious.org/blocksnet
[03:34:02] <MarkProffitt> is there a project started for this?
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[03:35:53] <GabydeWilde_> http://offsystem.sourceforge.net/
[03:36:42] <MarkProffitt> mod_torrent
[03:39:32] <GabydeWilde_> Development on mod_torrent is currently suspended indefinitely due to lack of time.
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[03:40:43] <MarkProffitt> I guess I'll pester Shad0w until he posts a spec, then I'll need some coders to build it
[03:41:11] * MarkProffitt doesn't code anymore
[03:42:12] <GabydeWilde_> why not?
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[11:01:45] <hypyrbole> Has anybody here ever been able to get this to work: http://libtorrent.rakshasa.no/wiki/RTorrentCommonTasks#Schedulingdownloadrate
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[12:25:11] <hypyrbole> Has anybody here ever been able to get this to work: http://libtorrent.rakshasa.no/wiki/RTorrentCommonTasks#Schedulingdownloadrate
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[18:02:54] <burris> http://www.theonion.com/content/amvo/lancet_retracts_autism_paper
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[19:49:10] <bramm> 13 failed attempts to login using this nick since the last time. I have the lamest fucking fans in the whole damn universe
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[19:56:11] <nmrcy> hi
[19:56:51] <nmrcy> can somebody help me installing Bittorrent-5.3
[19:57:48] <burris> I think the current version is 6.4, for windoze
[19:58:05] <burris> if you're on windows you definitely want >6
[19:58:12] <nmrcy> im not using windowse
[19:58:40] <nmrcy> linux
[19:59:05] <burris> try uTorrent under wine
[19:59:20] <burris> or BitTorrent > 6 since it's the same thing
[19:59:52] <burris> I think a lot of people on linux use uT with wine, except people with religous prohibitions against such things
[19:59:55] <DWKnight> make sure to use the dev version of wine though
[20:00:21] <nmrcy> whats the difference between 5.3 glp and 6
[20:01:14] <burris> 5 and 6 are totally different, completely different code base, plus a bunch more modern features since it's been like 4 years since BT worked on v5
[20:01:28] <burris> 3 years
[20:01:28] <Andrius> are you guys against linux bt clients or something?
[20:02:01] <burris> it's the only one I have experience with, except Transmission but I have only used that on mac
[20:03:55] <charles> nmrcy: I guess the question is what you're trying to use Bittorrent-5.3 for
[20:04:18] <nmrcy> yes
[20:04:46] <charles> ...? that wasn't a yes or no question
[20:05:36] <nmrcy> sec
[20:06:14] <nmrcy> im trying to install it
[20:06:15] <nmrcy> 5.3
[20:06:48] <charles> yes but why.  there are lots of newer choices out there on Linux that are easier to install, transmission, deluge, rtorrent
[20:07:11] <nmrcy> to compare differences
[20:07:31] <nmrcy> its working fine with wine
[20:08:01] <nmrcy> but i want to see the differences between linux version and windows version
[20:11:09] <DWKnight> comparing 5.3 windows to 5.3 linux, they're basically identical
[20:11:23] <DWKnight> 5.3 linux to 6.x windows is a METRIC FUCKTON different
[20:21:59] <nmrcy> my listening port is open but bittorrent 6.4 on wine cant see its open
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[20:55:24] <charles> DWKnight: it's almost as if 5.3 and 6.x were different applications... ;)
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[20:58:01] <DWKnight> gee, I wonder why that could be
[20:58:04] * DWKnight coughs
[20:58:07] 
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[21:43:04] <Astro> is there a dev mailing list?
[21:43:19] <Astro> I only found the user forums on forum.bittorrent.org
[21:49:01] <DWKnight> ibiblio has one
[21:49:16] <skampler> there's a secret bittorrent protocol modification only for bittorrents devs who can implement it
[21:49:37] <skampler> and in there chat
[21:50:53] <skampler> the spec is in fact 10 pages of dense mathematical formulas, half of which is  a brilliant contradiction which unfolds a simple but siginitifant portion into the real protocol. a puzzle some might say. but it's open source.
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[21:56:33] <The_8472> <Astro> I only found the user forums on forum.bittorrent.org <- "only"?
[21:56:43] <The_8472> and also, there's the #bittorrent channel on freenode
[22:06:53] <Astro> ok, I should really join that one...
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