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[02:38:55] <skampler> after the handshake, am i expected to receive something?
[02:39:02] <skampler> i mean after i've sent my handshake
[02:39:17] <skampler> and receive something within that tcp session
[02:43:22] <The_8472> bittorrent messages
[02:43:25] <The_8472> e.g. the bitfield
[02:43:37] <skampler> okay
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[03:22:54] <The_8472> alus: http://forum.bittorrent.org/viewtopic.php?pid=926#p926 new version of the bep
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[04:12:04] <alus> The_8472: +1
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[04:23:27] <The_8472> so, who do i have to prod to get it into the BEP list?
[04:26:07] <Nolar> i heard you have to spend the night with Bram
[04:29:03] <The_8472> i doubt that would be in his best interest *sharpens knives*
[04:29:11] <Nolar> :)
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[04:48:23] <alus> The_8472: hydri
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[06:41:02] <Switeck> public service announcement...what's this guy smoking?:   http://forum.utorrent.com/viewtopic.php?id=67014
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[06:54:41] <Switeck> I couldn't figure out if that poster was asking for something...giving 'helpful' info to others...or just ranting.
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[15:35:10] <sktrdie> hi
[15:35:35] <sktrdie> How does a bittorrent client let me send data to someone else, if neither of us have a public IP?
[15:39:42] <The_8472> well, if you're behind a NAT router you need port forwarding to be reachable through your public IP
[15:39:49] <The_8472> otherwise it won't work
[15:40:19] <sktrdie> im not reachable through a public IP
[15:40:26] <sktrdie> so how come my upload works
[15:40:27] <sktrdie> ?
[15:41:00] <The_8472> you're probably uploading to people who are reachable
[15:41:38] <sktrdie> so it figures out which of the 2 peers has a public IP
[15:41:46] <The_8472> no
[15:42:07] <sktrdie> so
[15:42:11] <sktrdie> like all the peers that are connected to me
[15:42:13] <The_8472> people just connect to whoever has a reachable ip/port. that includes you
[15:42:20] <sktrdie> they all try, but they fail, because i dont have a public IP
[15:42:32] <sktrdie> i mean, they try to get the data
[15:42:57] <The_8472> you do have a public IP btw, otherwise you couldn't talk to me right now. it's just that your PC is behind a NAT box which holds that public IP
[15:43:00] <sktrdie> but with their public IP they are able to get it anyway>?
[15:43:07] <The_8472> you could easily forward the port from that box to your PC
[15:43:16] <sktrdie> The_8472: well
[15:43:24] <The_8472> you seem to lack understanding how the internet works
[15:43:29] <sktrdie> i do :)
[15:43:45] <sktrdie> for example
[15:43:58] <sktrdie> i cannot make an HTTP server
[15:44:03] <sktrdie> because i dont have a public IP
[15:44:12] <sktrdie> The_8472: well, irc is different, i'm *sending* data
[15:44:54] <The_8472> you're also receiving data
[15:45:07] <The_8472> otherwise you couldn't read what i'm saying
[15:45:26] <The_8472> connections are bi-directional. the only difference is who initiates the connection
[15:45:39] <sktrdie> interesting yes
[15:45:40] <sktrdie> isee
[15:45:51] <sktrdie> like an HTTP request, of course i get the data back from the request
[15:46:18] <The_8472> like everything on the internet
[15:46:18] <sktrdie> but still, have a public IP would improva my peers reach, right?
[15:46:22] <The_8472> yes
[15:46:34] <The_8472> but you don't need a public IP on your PC
[15:46:44] <The_8472> it's enough if you forward the listening port from the NAT device to your PC
[15:46:46] <The_8472> see http://portforward.com/help/portforwarding.htm
[15:47:01] <sktrdie> ok
[15:49:09] <sktrdie> i would do the same if i wanted to make an HTTP server, right?
[15:49:23] <sktrdie> (just trying to figure out the analogy)
[15:51:16] <The_8472> yes
[15:51:51] <The_8472> it's not an analogy, it's the same protocol (tcp) used for two different higher-level protocols (http, bittorrent)
[15:51:58] <sktrdie> yep :)
[15:52:20] <sktrdie> so, a torrent needs a tracker to get the peers ips basically
[15:52:29] <sktrdie> so i can connect to them
[15:52:32] <sktrdie> interesting
[15:52:39] <sktrdie> so i can spawn multiple connections on the same port?
[15:53:06] <sktrdie> i was implementing a pure TCP connection
[15:53:15] <sktrdie> and it seemed to let me insert only 1 ip
[15:53:19] <sktrdie> or what am i missing
[15:54:06] <The_8472> you might be confusing source and destination ports
[15:55:43] <The_8472> socket pairs must be unique based on the <src IP, src port, udp/tcp, dst IP, dst port> tuple. if you want to reuse source ports you need to set SO_REUSEADDR on the socket through
[15:56:39] <sktrdie> reuse?
[15:56:48] <sktrdie> as in simultaneously?
[15:57:12] <The_8472> yes, but that's usually not necessary
[15:58:23] <sktrdie> but it is for BitTorrent...
[15:58:57] <The_8472> no, it is not
[15:59:26] <sktrdie> so how does it connect to multiple IPs?
[15:59:56] <sktrdie> hrm
[16:00:03] <sktrdie> just another thread?
[16:00:08] <The_8472> uhm
[16:00:29] <The_8472> if you want to use blocking IO, yes
[16:00:40] <sktrdie> oh
[16:00:49] <The_8472> but since you have to handle ~60 connections at least you usually use nonblocking IO
[16:00:52] <sktrdie> a bt client uses event loops?
[16:01:02] <sktrdie> ok
[16:01:11] <sktrdie> i suppose it all makes sense
[16:01:20] <sktrdie> i should probably study network more
[16:01:22] <The_8472> depends a bit on the implementation/library/operating system
[16:01:24] <sktrdie> but im lazy
[16:01:31] <The_8472> but yes, usually it's event-driven
[16:02:22] <The_8472> but that's unrelated to using ports
[16:02:51] <The_8472> you have one listening port for incoming connections, outgoing connections are just established and the source port selection is usually left to the OS
[16:07:23] <sktrdie> do you know how does 'private' trackers are able to create connections only through IPs of their network?
[16:07:51] <sktrdie> the tracker must have some logic to only SEND peers with the ip stored on the website, i suppose, right?
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[16:08:38] <The_8472> users are usually authenticated by some token in the announce URL
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[16:08:43] <The_8472> so they get customized .torrents
[16:10:50] <sktrdie> but it must be connected with the ip somehow right?
[16:10:54] <sktrdie> otherwise i could send that torrent arounde
[16:10:59] <sktrdie> and people would still download
[16:11:19] <The_8472> you could, but the tracker then could detect that the same token is used by multiple IPs
[16:11:58] <The_8472> anyway, private trackers are a borken concept... don't bother finding flaws, there are too many
[16:12:27] <sktrdie> well im trying to build one, thats why
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[16:13:21] <The_8472> well, good luck with that
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[16:16:23] <sktrdie> The_8472: why would it be a broken concept?
[16:16:37] <The_8472> http://www.azureuswiki.com/index.php/User:The8472/Private_trackers
[16:16:44] <sktrdie> You just check if the token connected to that user, is downloading that torrent
[16:16:53] <sktrdie> if it is, no other connections are allowed
[16:16:56] <sktrdie> that would work...
[16:18:21] <The_8472> it does not
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[16:25:36] <sktrdie> The_8472: the token can be re-generated
[16:26:23] <sktrdie> the user would have to re-download the torrent, but it would avoid other people from interferring in the tracker
[16:29:29] <sktrdie> hrm
[16:30:24] <The_8472> so? it doesn't change anything
[16:31:02] <sktrdie> what do you mean?
[16:31:08] <The_8472> peer-peer connections are not authenticated and nothing forces the downloader to report accurate stats to the tracker... or report to the tracker at all after obtaining a list of IPs
[16:31:20] <sktrdie> it changes the fact that it doesn't allow other people (not part of the community) from interferring in the download
[16:31:22] <The_8472> but i explained all that in the link i have provided
[16:31:31] <The_8472> i suggest you read it instead of asking redundant questions
[16:32:08] <sktrdie> The_8472: they are not authenticated, but the connection isn't made until the trackers tells it so
[16:32:19] <sktrdie> that's why im saying the authentication should happen there
[16:32:36] <The_8472> <sktrdie> The_8472: they are not authenticated, but the connection isn't made until the trackers tells it so <- and why would that be?
[16:33:13] <sktrdie> that would just be an implementation
[16:33:23] <sktrdie> i mean
[16:33:25] <The_8472> exactly. nothing the tracker can control
[16:33:26] <sktrdie> isn't that how it works?
[16:33:36] <sktrdie> the tracker controls the connections...
[16:33:47] <The_8472> no, it doesn't
[16:34:03] <sktrdie> what yes
[16:34:04] <The_8472> http://www.azureuswiki.com/index.php/User:The8472/Private_trackers <- which i ALSO explained here...
[16:34:07] <sktrdie> it returns a list of peers
[16:34:19] <The_8472> so?
[16:34:22] <sktrdie> well
[16:34:26] <sktrdie> that list of peers can be filtered
[16:34:32] <The_8472> so?
[16:34:33] <sktrdie> based on the community rules
[16:34:48] <sktrdie> so, if they are filterd, you can authenticate
[16:34:50] <The_8472> yes, so the tracker returns a list of filtered peers
[16:35:01] <sktrdie> it doesn't return any, if the token is not valid ;)
[16:35:03] <The_8472> but that doesn't keep anyone from connecting to the clients
[16:35:50] <sktrdie> but if the NoncommunityUser doesn't have any peers to connect to, it's done!
[16:36:20] <The_8472> DHT, PEX, he could have connected previously before the token became invalid, ...
[16:36:35] <The_8472> there is no technical measure to ensure that
[16:36:39] <sktrdie> oh
[16:36:43] <The_8472> you're relying on everyone playing by the rules
[16:36:45] <sktrdie> yes, DHT sucks
[16:36:54] <sktrdie> i mean
[16:36:57] <The_8472> no, it removes a single point of failure
[16:37:00] <sktrdie> for this is sucks, but its good
[16:37:31] <sktrdie> so, before the token becomes invalid
[16:37:36] <The_8472> i mean there's the private flag. but that relies on everyone playing by the rules, which you cannot verify
[16:37:39] <sktrdie> doesn't the client regularly make a request to the tracker?
[16:37:46] <The_8472> sure
[16:38:28] <sktrdie> well ok
[16:38:35] <sktrdie> but i guess all this blows away since there's DHT
[16:38:41] <sktrdie> and most clients connect to it, right?
[16:38:53] <sktrdie> although it's weird, i barely ever connect to peers on there, i wonder why
[16:39:52] <sktrdie> oh
[16:40:03] <sktrdie> like you said, they might not be allowed i suppose
[16:40:10] <The_8472> i mean there's the private flag. but that relies on everyone playing by the rules, which you cannot verify <-
[16:40:33] <sktrdie> that's just il in the torrent right?
[16:40:35] <sktrdie> the file
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[22:12:27] <The_8472> erdgeist, is /stats disabled by default now on opentracker?
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[22:57:05] <TheSHAD0W> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/8481790.stm
[22:59:52] <Switeck> I wonder if they're paying bulk postage rates?
[23:04:46] <jnpplf> Not if they're using the stamp in the picture
[23:04:55] <The_8472> piracy, creating jobs in the HDD/blankd DVD, broadband, lawyer and now postal sectors
[23:05:08] <The_8472> the picture is probably a stock picture
[23:05:24] <The_8472> corporate mail doesn't look like that
[23:06:24] <Switeck> lots of people trash/shred bulk postage.
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[23:06:56] <Switeck> but as aggressively as that company is sending those letters out, it's practically a bulk postage sender in all but name.
[23:07:24] <Switeck> That might all come to a head if the mail service refuses to take part in massive mail fraud.
[23:07:45] <jnpplf> They'll be too busy striking to post it
[23:07:54] <Switeck> ha ha ha!
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