[00:00:02] <The_8472> some experimental gene therapy might help then
[00:00:10] <Switeck> 4 a : close to the lower limit of qualification, acceptability, or function : barely exceeding the minimum requirements
[00:00:31] <The_8472> anyway
[00:00:33] <The_8472> http://www.azureuswiki.com/index.php?title=Sequential_downloading_is_bad
[00:00:36] <The_8472> go, read
[00:01:00] <Arney1> hello anyowone here
[00:01:14] <Switeck> yes...
[00:01:32] <Arney1> good, I seem to have touched the clear button with my toes
[00:02:05] <Arney1> anyways I could give a counter argument stating that if more people use bittorrent there will be more seeds and thus better downloading experience.
[00:02:18] <Arney1> although, yeah its generally bad.
[00:02:20] <Switeck> not necessarily on the torrents you're after though...
[00:02:43] <Switeck> and if people's idea of use is download in 30 minutes, stop torrent in 31 minutes...I can't say I want them.
[00:03:22] <Switeck> Maybe some can upload more than they download in that amount of time on 2-8 GB torrents...but they're bloody few!
[00:03:52] <Arney1> ratio 3.491, I'm not one of them.
[00:04:18] <Arney1> wtf.
[00:04:35] <Arney1> what's Total Running time 2403:47:29
[00:04:36] <Switeck> then apparently you at least are uploading long after you downloaded the torrents.
[00:04:40] <The_8472> if everyone had symmetric connections we might be more lenient about things. but they don't, thus randomized order downloading is important from the global perspective. that an individual person might greedily want to download in order but harm the whole and thus indirectly himself is just a perfect example for the tragedy of the commons.
[00:04:49] <The_8472> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons
[00:05:14] <Switeck> total running time is how long your bittorrent client has been run (not all at once of course!)
[00:05:25] <Switeck> That's 2403 hours, 47 minutes, 29 seconds.
[00:05:31] <Switeck> ~100 days
[00:05:38] <Arney1> that's unexpe... oh windows 7 lol.
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[00:09:48] <Arney1> Nice reading.
[00:11:15] <Arney1> Give me a prediction, how long will it take for patents to die? or to be repurposed.
[00:13:29] <Switeck> depends on the patent
[00:13:40] <Switeck> probably in excess of 30 years
[00:13:40] <Arney1> I mean the patent system.
[00:13:49] <Switeck> the whole system? never
[00:14:03] <The_8472> after the singularity, maybe
[00:14:05] <Switeck> too much money/control behind those in power
[00:14:48] <Switeck> I don't believe in the singularity as a reasonable possibility.
[00:15:30] <Switeck> maybe computers/internet may approach some sort of "harmony", but we humans are just too stupid(tm)
[00:15:35] <The_8472> i didn't say that it was a reasonable possibility ^^
[00:16:16] <Switeck> I am finding it harder to learn obscure but presumably public domain information due to much of the internet "dying"
[00:16:26] <Arney1> http://talkback.zdnet.com/5208-12355-0.html?forumID=1&threadID=68015&messageID=1296717&tag=content;col1
[00:16:34] <Arney1> that's my opinion...
[00:16:47] <Arney1> Small part of it.
[00:18:02] <Arney1> I was pondering on the possiblity of dual majoring... in engineering and law
[00:18:36] <Arney1> to screw over the patent system and exploit it to such a point that its flaws would become obious...
[00:18:45] <Arney1> I don't think it possible
[00:19:03] <Arney1> companies have already exploited it like crazy... no one cares.
[00:19:17] <Arney1> well almost no one.
[00:19:30] <Arney1> has anyone here read the book copyright?
[00:20:17] <Switeck> I am aware
[00:20:42] <Switeck> I've got an old text file called "Patent BULLSHIT.txt" that documents some of the worst examples of patent use.
[00:21:23] <Arney1> that's not the name of the book. What's the name of the book that talks about copyright and that was publicly realeased for free
[00:21:40] <Switeck> "Patent war chests" allow huge corporations to SLAPP suit small fry into submission.
[00:22:05] <Switeck> copyright being a mark given by the King of England...I've read a bit about too.
[00:23:15] <Arney1> The free culture!
[00:23:20] <mpl> Arney1: maybe you're referring to Lessig's "Free culture" ?
[00:23:20] <Arney1> that's the name
[00:23:25] <Switeck> It was never about enriching the arts and sciences. Even many of the framers of the US Constitution got to live long enough to see the copyrights and patents on the steam engine
[00:23:40] <Switeck> ...and how that set back the industrial revolution >25 years
[00:24:52] <Arney1> it would have been fun to patent rubber and not give anyone the rights to use it for 100 years.
[00:25:04] <Arney1> volcanized rubber that is.
[00:27:09] <Switeck> the synergy of any simultaneously invented processes or substances is impossible without free exchange of ideas...which can only happen via corporate idea-swapping, or abolishing of patent/copyright ssystems.
[00:27:35] <Switeck> I am NOT in favor of more corporate power
[00:27:43] <Switeck> so that leaves the latter.
[00:36:26] <The_8472> well, i think that wouldn't work either. you have to provide some incentive for expensive research at least
[00:36:36] <The_8472> but they should be restricted to 5-10 years maybe
[00:37:10] <The_8472> and maybe if you forfeit any patent claims if you do not apply or refine them within 1 year after applying for the patent
[00:37:51] <The_8472> that would prevent companies from hoarding patents just to extract money from other companies
[00:37:53] <kjetilho> the idea of patents is to provide an incentive to share information rather than to sit on technology as company secrets
[00:38:14] <kjetilho> I think it is fair to say that we would be better off with company secrets...
[00:38:22] <The_8472> what good does the sharing do when it's too expensive for other companies to buy into them?
[00:38:31] <kjetilho> well, that depends.
[00:38:43] <Switeck> "cancer research" is often being funded through governments and public donations...the results are still often very expensive.
[00:38:47] <kjetilho> the licensing for the Allen key wasn't onerous
[00:39:13] <kjetilho> same for compact discs, DVD, etc. etc.
[00:39:44] <The_8472> that's because they were invented by consortiums that wish widespread adoption of their standards
[00:40:01] <The_8472> well, not invented
[00:40:09] <The_8472> but they threw their knowhow into a pool
[00:40:35] <The_8472> i think that's one of the better ways how patents are used
[00:41:01] <Switeck> CDs and DVDs had jointly-owned patent/copyright pools
[00:41:32] <Switeck> and there was even a backlash by one company when the fake music CDs were being marketed as regular CDs.
[00:41:45] <Switeck> (Sony Rootkit debacle)
[00:42:22] <kjetilho> Sony's CD's conformed to spec
[00:42:38] <kjetilho> they just exploited the bad security in Windows
[00:42:56] <kjetilho> but EMI et al had broken the standard
[00:43:07] <Switeck> maybe I got it mixed up with the one where "weak sectors" were intentionally used to make CDs hard to read/copy on computer CD drives
[00:43:35] <Switeck> Sony was probably using yellowbook (data + music tracks) ok...
[00:43:45] <Arney1> http://codev2.cc/
[00:43:52] <Arney1> his head is intimidating
[00:44:03] <The_8472> many small engineering companies live of patents too. e.g. one local company here patented some process how to make efficient inverters for solar panels. they're not sueing anyone, they produce exactly those inverters and don't have to worry about protecting their product against reverse engineering
[00:44:16] <The_8472> so, at least there the system works
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[01:47:27] <TheSHAD0W> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1242011/DAVID-ROSE-The-mini-ice-age-starts-here.html
[01:47:32] <TheSHAD0W> Ha.
[01:48:00] <TheSHAD0W> As full of shit as the global warming crowd.  :-P
[01:50:37] <Switeck> Jury's still out on if this cold spell is just a colder winter than normal or anything significant.
[01:50:54] <TheSHAD0W> There's evidence for it...
[01:50:58] <TheSHAD0W> And evidence against.
[01:51:01] <Switeck> It's warmer here than it was during a cold spell in ~1993
[01:51:20] <Switeck> we saw temps of ~5 F and daytime highs of <20 F
[01:51:25] <TheSHAD0W> We simply don't have enough information to model the planet's climate anywhere near accurately.
[01:51:27] <Switeck> And where I'm at, that's saying something!
[01:52:05] <Switeck> The real bullshit about global warming is the supposed warming trend measured so far is below the overall accuracy of measuring tools used to record it.
[01:52:30] <Switeck> How the heck do we know if 100 years ago the temp gauges were accurate within 1/10th a F?!
[01:52:57] <kjetilho> we know they weren't.  but there is more than one gauge...
[01:54:07] <kjetilho> lots of factors reduce reliability.  closeness to human heat sources, timing of reading, accuracy of reading
[01:54:17] <Switeck> an average of inaccurate devices doesn't normally make more accurate data.
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[01:54:39] <kjetilho> it does, if there isn't a bias
[01:55:43] <Switeck> It could be a simple matter of...were there trees/buildings near the temp measurement?
[01:56:28] <kjetilho> yeah, it's hard
[01:57:34] <Switeck> I fear laying down 1+ million square kms of asphalt roads may be doing a lot of passive heating.
[01:57:58] <Switeck> way to go...paint large amounts of Earth BLACK
[01:59:57] 
[02:00:02] <kjetilho> is it really that much?
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[02:01:23] <kjetilho> that's 1-2000 times around the Earth.
[02:01:41] <kjetilho> I guess it could be true
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[02:22:05] <Switeck> 1,000 km square
[02:22:14] <Switeck> = 1 million square kms
[02:23:14] <Switeck> Earth's surface area is considerably larger than that...
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[03:21:08] <punto> how many characters is an infohash as a hex string?
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[03:29:03] <alus> punto: 40
[04:00:25] <swolchok> punto: just please tell me you didn't just write char infohashstr[40];
[04:00:40] <swolchok> (or even char infohashstr[41];
[04:03:14] <punto> I didn't.. what's wrong with that anyway?
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[05:11:49] <infection> what are bittorrent feeds anyone?
[05:14:23] <The_8472> i guess you're referring to rss feeds pointing to .torrent files
[05:14:50] <infection> i have no idea
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[05:16:24] <lookatunix> what are they
[05:16:29] <lookatunix> The_8472:
[05:16:32] <lookatunix> what are tehy
[05:18:40] <CalebJamesDeLisl> Are there any iptables nerds hanging around here?
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[05:21:01] <The_8472> CalebJamesDeLisl, just ask your question
[05:22:13] <CalebJamesDeLisl> I was wondering if holding rst packets for some bit of time would prevent the infamous sandvine attack because the 'real' packet gets there and the forged rst packet is dropped as a dupe.
[05:23:02] <The_8472> interesting idea, but no, it wouldn't work as they send RSTs in both directions
[05:23:35] <CalebJamesDeLisl> So if the other user runs the script it works.
[05:23:46] <The_8472> if both users do
[05:24:07] <CalebJamesDeLisl> Even if the other user runs the hamfisted drop all rst line, it would work :)
[05:24:29] <The_8472> except that practically nobody would do that
[05:25:09] <CalebJamesDeLisl> I wonder if it could be implanted in bittorrent, does it have such low levle control of the connection?
[05:25:20] <CalebJamesDeLisl> s/levle/level
[05:26:35] <The_8472> usually not, no
[05:27:02] <CalebJamesDeLisl> Theoretically, people with bad cable would use "drop all rst" because otherwise they would get no throughput and give up.
[05:27:19] <The_8472> the ones on the other end wouldn't though
[05:27:34] <The_8472> i.e. "everone else"
[05:27:36] <The_8472> +y
[05:27:58] <CalebJamesDeLisl> So it's up to the big seeders to run the cool hold script and then they can do business with the people using bad cable.
[05:28:27] <The_8472> no, it's up to the people with bad cable to vote with their feet and get a better ISP
[05:28:39] <CalebJamesDeLisl> Truth!
[05:28:44] <CalebJamesDeLisl> If they can.
[05:28:57] <The_8472> if not then there clearly is a market failure
[05:29:08] <CalebJamesDeLisl> Regulation.
[05:31:02] <Switeck> <- on ComCast
[05:31:16] <CalebJamesDeLisl> The cable people ruined torrenting for everyone else with their rst packets, and trying to block them created monster syn floods and too many open connections :(
[05:31:16] <Switeck> There were rare cases where 1-sided RST packets occurred.
[05:31:26] <Switeck> you could fill up with zombie connections
[05:31:59] <CalebJamesDeLisl> The canadian cable cos also do it.
[05:32:00] <Switeck> Now, ComCast does not appear to regularly use RST packets as a "management" tool.
[05:32:31] <alus> CalebJamesDeLisl: Comcast already agreed to shut off all the Sandvine hardware
[05:32:43] <CalebJamesDeLisl> Yes, I think the other isps got angry at comcast so now they just say 250gig/month
[05:32:47] <Switeck> they agreed only to quit doing RST
[05:33:09] <Switeck> they are still using Sandvine-made equipment, though supposedly not the SAME Sandvine equipment. (more like mark-2 versions!)
[05:33:11] <alus> well, yes, sandvine is also useful for stats, which are fine
[05:33:33] <CalebJamesDeLisl> And just as they were stopping the fcc said stop and they were like ok.
[05:34:01] <The_8472> that's more or less ancient history now
[05:34:06] <Switeck> FCC wouldn't have "found" against ComCast in the first place if ComCast hadn't denied they were doing it IMO
[05:34:19] <Switeck> wasn't what they were doing, it was that they lied about it.
[05:34:36] <alus> well, we'll never know
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[05:34:46] <alus> and the right message was sent. screw up the internet, and people get angry
[05:34:57] <Switeck> FCC's ruling was a very narrow thing though... 3:2 I believe
[05:35:09] <alus> you could cry about it
[05:35:12] <The_8472> they changed staff though
[05:35:33] <CalebJamesDeLisl> Sandvine is cc's voip company, I forgot their port # but I remember people saying use that port :D
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[05:36:15] <Switeck> ComCast has since sued the FCC over the FCC's ruling.
[05:37:24] <alus> add deny tcp from any to me 6881 tcpflags rst :D
[05:37:24] <Switeck> I hope that doesn't even pass the laugh test.
[05:37:33] <Switeck> 6881?
[05:37:41] <alus> or what-have-you
[05:37:58] <CalebJamesDeLisl> 6881 = your bt port right?
[05:38:01] <Switeck> if you're going to block a remote port...block port 50 >:(
[05:38:40] <CalebJamesDeLisl> I heard the court didn't like the ruling. Sort of good but sort of bad.
[05:39:05] <CalebJamesDeLisl> Internet isn't fcc's toy, nor is it comcast's.
[05:39:26] <alus> CalebJamesDeLisl: right, use your port
[05:40:01] <CalebJamesDeLisl> alus: Then you get a massive syn flood and 10 million zomby connections :(
[05:40:15] <alus> CalebJamesDeLisl: then you what the who?
[05:41:08] <CalebJamesDeLisl> It will jam your internet connection.
[05:41:13] <Switeck> The internet needs an absolute minimum number of rules...which isn't to say that the rules are none, only a few. When you cannot trust that what an ISP is selling is true, a line has been crossed.
[05:41:37] <alus> CalebJamesDeLisl: how will it jam your internet connection?
[05:42:17] <CalebJamesDeLisl> Spam is handled by the isps and backbone providers. I think this should be handled the same way.
[05:42:34] <Switeck> ISPs have proven untrustworthy
[05:42:56] <CalebJamesDeLisl> Yes. Backbone cos are somewhat better.
[05:43:44] <Switeck> When ComCast was even lying to the press about what they were doing...they proved my point.
[05:44:10] <CalebJamesDeLisl> cc is backed by a sleezy backbone company called level3
[05:44:45] <The_8472> level3 doesn't forge packets though, they just go on bogus disputes with other tier1 carriers
[05:44:56] <CalebJamesDeLisl> They also carry video like cc, and they also dislike people being able to download video like cc.
[05:44:59] <Switeck> and I've heard of peering arrangement disasters when disputes with other tier 1 carriers happen.
[05:45:00] <The_8472> (ab)using their customer base as leverage
[05:45:37] <CalebJamesDeLisl> Loved when cogent blocked level3 LOL.
[05:45:51] <The_8472> heard? i've seen it happen. several big websites were unreachable for hours
[05:46:07] <The_8472> yep. cogent vs. l3 is a classic ^^
[05:46:36] <Switeck> both slimeballs :P
[05:47:26] <TheSHAD0W> "How could you do this so suddenly?"  "You've known for months.  Pay up."
[05:48:03] <TheSHAD0W> Especially since Cogent was pulling links one by one over a span of weeks...
[05:49:04] <CalebJamesDeLisl> What's wrong with cogent?
[05:49:21] <TheSHAD0W> It's L3's fault.
[05:49:38] <CalebJamesDeLisl> Everything is L3's fault :)
[05:49:53] <TheSHAD0W> L3 wasn't handling enough of Cogent's traffic, so Cogent told them to pay up.  L3 said nay nay.
[05:50:53] <CalebJamesDeLisl> I have a script i'd like to hear some comments on, care if I paste?
[05:51:06] <TheSHAD0W> Pastebin it.
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[05:51:24] <alus> http://codepad.org :)
[05:52:11] <Switeck> Cogent is the host of all the nasties in the 38.x.x.x ip range.
[05:52:33] <alus> send them RST packets!
[05:52:34] <alus> oh wait
[05:52:40] <alus> neutral means neutral
[05:53:20] <Switeck> easier to just ignore them
[05:53:59] 
[05:54:04] <Switeck> not all firewall/block methods use or require RST packets.
[05:54:21] <CalebJamesDeLisl> http://pastebin.com/f2d7440e9
[05:54:42] <CalebJamesDeLisl> 1000ms is excessive but you get the idea
[05:55:24] <CalebJamesDeLisl> Imagine using this for your server so people in china can reach it by blocking all rst.
[05:56:48] <CalebJamesDeLisl> what nasties in the 38.x.x.x range?
[05:57:09] <Switeck> If you don't know...nevermind, that's a can of crazy worms.
[05:57:16] <alus> The_8472: which bug?
[05:57:21] <The_8472> anti-p2p company... the new things that sprung from the mediadefender/mediasentry merger
[05:57:43] <The_8472> this one: http://forum.utorrent.com/viewtopic.php?id=65968
[05:58:13] <alus> oh, I was not aware of that.
[05:58:14] * alus looks
[05:58:53] <CalebJamesDeLisl> heard tpb is suing mediadefailer
[05:59:49] <Switeck> pointless IMO, but oh well...
[06:00:59] <The_8472> well, since the MI basically contracted mediadefender/sentry they could be held liable. Which would be excellent leverage in other court cases
[06:01:03] <CalebJamesDeLisl> I was thinking wouldn't it be funny if moblock/pg redirected to a dummy torrent engine which only leeched.
[06:01:10] <The_8472> they do play an interesting game
[06:02:05] <CalebJamesDeLisl> mediadefailer asks and you always have no pieces of any torrent :)
[06:03:13] <CalebJamesDeLisl> BTW: the first 3 lines of that script were double pasted, here's the fixed version http://pastebin.com/f4ccb610d
[06:04:53] <CalebJamesDeLisl> What you think of my little script?





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