[00:17:09] <The_8472> <Switeck> which makes no sense to me, since PEX is supposed to only be "tested and good" ips. :( <- supposed to yes. but transmission for example forwards pex messages. though that'll be fixed in 1.8
[00:17:26] <The_8472> <swolchok> is there a good argument against dropping token verification in get_peers in the DHT? <- spoofed UDP packets
[00:17:59] <Switeck> Then Transmission is full of FAIL! >:(
[00:18:12] <Switeck> ...till it's fixed. :P
[00:18:37] <The_8472> well, nobody speced PEX ...
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[01:36:43] <swolchok> The_8472: spoofed UDP packets aren't a good argument.
[01:36:52] <swolchok> The_8472: you can already poison.
[01:37:24] <swolchok> and you only have to find one client that does token-checking poorly to just brute force your way past that restriction.
[01:37:55] <swolchok> (I do see that you can't insert arbitrary IPs into the DHT as peers without being an ISP, so there is a DoS concern, but see above.)
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[02:09:30] <Nolar> alus or somebody in the know:   Does the uT &ws=<url> magnet extension identify a GetRight http web seed or an old style (bittornado) one?
[02:10:30] <Nolar> i  imagine it's the former
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[02:21:41] <alus> uT does not even support the bittornado style of web seeding
[02:22:46] <Nolar> figured as much :)
[02:24:50] <TheSHAD0W> So why not?
[02:25:25] <TheSHAD0W> It's a hell of a lot simpler on the peer side...
[02:25:33] <Nolar> vuze supports it, but frankly it's a pain in the ass to host
[02:26:07] <TheSHAD0W> It's more annoying, yeah.
[02:26:24] <TheSHAD0W> But it makes management a bit easier.
[02:26:31] <Nolar> perhaps
[02:26:47] <TheSHAD0W> I've been waiting for alternate scripts to appear...
[02:26:53] <Nolar> most of our sources are already on a cdn, so have built in monitoring and management and throttling
[02:27:20] <TheSHAD0W> Basically...
[02:27:47] <TheSHAD0W> The script-based one lets you seed off a $5/mo web account with little management access.
[02:29:11] <Nolar> ya, both have their place
[02:29:24] * TheSHAD0W nods
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[02:33:35] <The_8472> <swolchok> The_8472: you can already poison. <- you have to insert your own nodes to poison though instead of just sending bogus data to existing ones
[02:43:00] <swolchok> The_8472: so?
[02:44:55] <swolchok> and, uh, just send get_peers, announce_peer. 2 RPCs instead of 1.
[02:48:48] <The_8472> the token has to be generated based on the source IP of course
[02:48:56] <The_8472> you can't recieve the token if you fake your source
[02:49:40] <The_8472> i generate tokens based on: secret variable, the current time, the source IP and port and the target key
[02:50:13] <The_8472> prevents replay attacks, spoofing the source address, collusion attacks and brute forceing
[02:51:25] <The_8472> oh, as an added bonus it's stateless too
[03:13:54] <swolchok> that has nothing to do with pretending to be a legit node for the time it takes to send 2 IPs
[03:14:11] <swolchok> s/IPs/RPCs
[03:14:31] <swolchok> they're not spoofed, but you've just entered a bogus port into the mainline DHT for a torrent
[03:14:36] <swolchok> repeat a few thousand times per torrent
[03:24:56] <The_8472> you can't do that
[03:25:06] <The_8472> since it always inserts the source IP
[03:25:18] <The_8472> and i allow every IP only once per key
[03:26:02] <The_8472> i suggest you look at the ANNOUNCE_PEER request
[03:26:10] <The_8472> you won't find any ip-field
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[05:04:55] <TheSHAD0W> http://money.canoe.ca/News/Other/2010/01/06/12373111-ap.html - IP law gone (further) insane
[05:09:36] <Switeck> I am certain the copyrights and trademarks have expired on those items...
[05:10:07] <Switeck> And I seriously doubt they are symbols of the Mexican government.
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[09:17:26] <Switeck> This link shows how ComCast Cable ISP's speed boost affects uTorrent's uploads (I turned to upload limiter off for about 1 minute):   http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/9472/utorrentcomcastspeedboo.png
[09:17:53] <Switeck> I have yet to determine an automated means of utilizing that speed burst
[09:19:19] <chelz> in my experience it's next to useless for anything but casual web browsing
[09:19:44] <Switeck> probably
[09:19:45] <chelz> 'Power Boost' is only supposed to work for the first 5, 10, 15 or something megabytes
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[09:20:19] <chelz> it's actually pretty annoying when trying to get a read of what a connection can really handle
[09:20:38] <chelz> of course one can always setup their own modem with custom firmware if they really want 'extra' stuff
[09:21:20] <Switeck> oh, it's terrible when people configure their bittorrent clients based on their "speedboosted" online speed tests!
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[09:22:46] <chelz> yeah. i hope torrents that include speed tests in their setup wizards account for it. i know utorrent's alpha has one but i'm not sure about the current releases.
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[09:23:11] <Switeck> uTorrent's alpha doesn't account for it at all.
[09:23:40] <chelz> that's gonna lead into some trouble
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[09:24:54] <Switeck> worse, their testing servers often get low readings for "distant" people
[09:26:21] <chelz> ah. services like that are great if they can get them to work. maybe just having a clickable link to one or a few of the popular speed test sites would be better.
[09:26:43] <chelz> btw those torrents you have loaded up are huge. i've never gone over 80GB in a single torrent.
[09:26:57] <chelz> oh wait nvm, i was looking at the uploaded
[09:28:02] <Switeck> 8)
[09:29:42] <chelz> it's gonna be awesome when we get into 200GB being common
[09:30:58] <Switeck> 200 GB is only a matter of time + effort, not a fast line
[09:31:20] <Switeck> 100 KB/sec for 1 month straight is more than 200 GB
[09:32:19] <Switeck> It's going to be awesome when people can upload 1 TB a month without their ISPs going apeshit.
[09:32:25] <chelz> ah indeed. that reminds me of possibly testing the supposed 250GB bandwidth cap by running an internal tor node for a day or two
[09:32:32] <chelz> haha exactly
[09:32:56] <chelz> hopefully ISPs will be convinced or forced to just work on upgrading their networks
[09:33:01] <Switeck> 1 TB/month should be possible with ~5 mbit/sec
[09:34:43] <Switeck> well, "super" ADSL 2+ tops out about 24 mbit/sec down and 3.4 mbit/sec up.
[09:34:56] <Switeck> so it's plain "out" as a future fast line
[09:35:38] <Switeck> cable ISPs not using Euro-DOCSIS can only "pump" 27 mbit/sec per upload channel and 38 mbit/sec per download channel.
[09:36:04] <Switeck> but that's split between many customers (often 100+!)
[09:37:01] <Switeck> wireless, cellular, and satellite internet connections are a bloody joke they're so awful
[09:37:57] <chelz> do you think they'll find a way to get faster speeds or is there really no competing with cable?
[09:38:14] <chelz> or also FiOS/FTTP/FTTH/etc
[09:39:24] <Switeck> VDSL2+ can rival DOCSIS 3.0 at its best
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[09:41:38] <Switeck> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Very_high_bitrate_digital_subscriber_line
[09:42:08] <Switeck> exceeding 100 Mbit/s simultaneously in both the upstream and downstream directions ...but currently degrades quickly past 300 meters.
[09:42:36] <Switeck> By 4 km, it's only about as fast as ADSL2+.
[09:43:36] <chelz> hmm dang
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[09:44:56] <chelz> aha
[09:45:01] <Switeck> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Very_High_Speed_Digital_Subscriber_Line_2
[09:45:02] <chelz> '# AT&T provides Internet and television service over VDSL in 25 cities under the trade-name U-verse. The AT&T service is based on FTTN, Fiber to the Node and FTTP is also used.'
[09:45:11] <Switeck> VDSL2 deteriorates quickly from a theoretical maximum of 250 Mbit/s at 'source' to 100 Mbit/s at 0.5 km
[09:45:20] <chelz> ah
[09:45:27] <Switeck> Starting from 1.6 km (1 mile) its performance is equal to ADSL2+.
[09:45:44] <Switeck> So no cheap solution there...
[09:45:52] <chelz> apparently not too many months ago comcast upgraded our nodes around to some kind of FTTN, making purchasing DOCSIS 3 connections an option
[09:46:04] <chelz> so i guess that'll be the next push for a while
[09:46:23] <chelz> intercontinental connections and those Internet2 things are all fiber right?
[09:47:00] <Switeck> yes
[09:47:30] <Switeck> fiber trumps electrical wires even at <10 km range
[09:47:56] <chelz> is there any restriction on the reuse of fiber lines for newer/faster methods of xferring data?
[09:48:04] <Switeck> A coaxial cable like cable tv uses could in theory do about 4-10 gbit/sec
[09:48:16] <chelz> ohh that'd be awesome
[09:48:22] <Switeck> but it'd be limited to probably less than 20 km
[09:48:46] <Switeck> cable ISPs already do that, they just put everything on that 1 cable :P
[09:48:52] <chelz> yeahh
[09:49:11] <chelz> if there's no restriction to reuse of fiber lines and the lines are already laid, should be really easy to upgrade in the future
[09:49:32] <Switeck> if 1 analog tv channel is 6 mhz and if used for downloading DOCSIS-style that's 38 mbit/sec...and the coaxial cable can have 120 channels, what's max bandwidth?
[09:50:00] <Switeck> 4560 mbit/sec?
[09:50:46] <Switeck> That was with the older 720-750 Mhz coaxial CMTS systems...
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[09:51:02] <Switeck> There's 1 Ghz and even 1.2 Ghz CMTS systems now.
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[09:51:23] <Switeck> They can have a LOT more channels
[09:53:53] <chelz> comcast needs to speed up already then
[09:57:21] <Switeck> ComCast is trying to add a LOT of tv channels to compete with satellite and add VoIP phone channels
[09:57:39] <Switeck> They may even be adding radio stations
[09:57:56] <Switeck> which all cuts into available space for internet access
[09:58:14] <Switeck> DOCSIS 3.0 has to use quite a few channels to work at all
[09:59:34] <Switeck> I'd expect at least 10 channels used for download + upload ...especially to retain a few legacy modems that don't do DOCSIS 3.0
[10:00:13] <Switeck> (because getting all your customers to upgrade their cablemodems can be as hard as upgrading the line!)
[10:02:19] <chelz> that doesn't seem like too many channels
[10:02:32] <chelz> esp if it's being used for ondemand stuff
[10:04:50] <Switeck> on demand is still the exception rather than the rule
[10:11:16] <Switeck> The vast majority of tv channels are broadcast all the time.
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[10:57:55] <chelz> ah
[10:58:19] <chelz> well to compete with tivo and other dvrs, and the whole ondemand nature of the internet, i would think they'd try to get a lot of ondemand
[11:00:22] <chelz> in a tracker GET request, is the "uploaded" and "downloaded" reported in bytes?
[11:00:46] <chelz> i'm looking over http://www.bittorrent.org/beps/bep_0003.html and it only really says that they're "encoded in base ten ascii."
[11:02:37] <chelz> ah nvm
[11:02:43] <chelz> http://wiki.theory.org/BitTorrentSpecification says "http://wiki.theory.org/BitTorrentSpecification"
[11:02:44] <chelz> erm
[11:02:49] <chelz> "uploaded: The total amount uploaded (since the client sent the 'started' event to the tracker) in base ten ASCII. While not explicitly stated in the official specification, the concensus is that this should be the total number of bytes uploaded. "
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[13:07:10] <finemann> hello, i am trying to install vuze (the new azureus) on fedora...but when i run the jar file i get an error saying that the main class in not found...could you help me on this?
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[13:58:41] <The_8472> no patience...
[13:59:18] <The_8472> alus, can you prod whoever is responsible for forum.bittorrent.org?
[13:59:23] <The_8472> it's broken, again
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[22:27:55] <The_8472> great. the bt.org forum swalled a bunch of messages ~~
[22:28:07] <alus> :/
[22:29:11] <alus> The_8472: can you give me some more detail?
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[22:33:28] <The_8472> well, threads disappeared a while ago... mostly the thread concerning the minor DHT extensions
[22:33:31] <The_8472> so we made a new one
[22:33:40] <The_8472> now the old one is back and the new one is missing
[22:33:46] <The_8472> and a few newer posts in other threads too
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[23:25:34] <alus> The_8472: ok, I'll poke Firon
[23:25:48] <The_8472> nothing critical was lost though





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