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[00:44:23] <The_8472>  <klapaucjusz> The same extension will deal with signalling overload. <- i suggest not sending tokens instead
[00:44:48] <The_8472> that's far far better for the DHT than just dropping completely from the routing landscape
[00:45:02] <The_8472> because if you drop out of the routing table the load just gets shifted to other nodes instead of spread out
[00:45:06] <klapaucjusz> The_8472: yep, I know, it's already in my list.
[00:45:11] <The_8472> worst case would be causing a cascade failure
[00:45:39] <The_8472> (wheeee... i get to use the term  "cascade failure")
[00:46:08] <DWKnight> (in proper context to boot)
[00:46:13] <klapaucjusz> I suggest we refrain from discussing the minor extensions before I write down a draft.  For now, just assume I've been listening to your ranting, and that I'm going to write something reasonable.
[00:47:18] <The_8472> excellent
[00:47:24] <The_8472> write faster! :P
[00:51:54] <klapaucjusz> :P yourself
[01:05:01] <The_8472> klapaucjusz, you saw http://forum.bittorrent.org/viewtopic.php?id=141 ?
[01:08:00] <choykloun> sup
[01:08:18] <klapaucjusz> Yes.
[01:09:56] <The_8472> the moon and stars
[01:17:35] <choykloun> by the way, am i committing some sort ofgreat sin by now storing 8 nodes per bucket blah blah?
[01:17:39] <choykloun> not*
[01:18:13] <choykloun> i store all torrents/peers and nodes i encounter
[01:18:22] <choykloun> then use separate tables for the delta
[01:19:27] <The_8472> you do, because you're supposed to keep the _oldest_ 8 nodes that are alive.
[01:20:05] <The_8472> so once a bucket is full it should stay like it is until nodes have to be replaced because they time out
[01:20:13] <The_8472> unbounded buckets won't achieve that property
[01:20:43] <choykloun> i can just make sure i sort my tables by age then
[01:20:51] <choykloun> which i do iirc
[01:21:20] <choykloun> im never responding with more than 8 nodes
[01:21:29] <choykloun> although i do find those restrictions a bit weir
[01:21:30] <choykloun> d
[01:21:31] <The_8472> not sufficient
[01:22:05] <The_8472> you're supposed to respond with the closest 8 nodes to a target key you know of. but only the cloesest ones out of the 8 oldest ones per bucket
[01:23:02] <The_8472> just stick to the spec, if you want to keep lists of additional nodes you can do that, but keep it separate from the routing table
[01:23:43] <choykloun> ya ive played a bit with the routing
[01:23:47] <choykloun> they are kinda integrated
[01:23:51] <choykloun> thats why i was wondering
[01:24:47] <choykloun> my latest routing implemention just points stuff to the node hashtable/linked list
[01:25:02] <choykloun> so geuss i should replace it with an array of 8 links instead
[01:25:54] <The_8472> lookups are only seeded from the routing table, after that they should maintain their own set of nodes to query, as they'll contiously learn about more nodes during the lookup procedure
[01:26:01] <The_8472> nodes you don't want to remember in the routing table
[01:26:14] <choykloun> maybe i want to for statistics
[01:26:15] <choykloun> etc
[01:26:23] <The_8472> yes, but they don't belong in the routing table
[01:26:29] <choykloun> maybe i want to run a bootstrap node
[01:26:32] <choykloun> etc
[01:26:50] <The_8472> ...
[01:27:16] <choykloun> but will make sure they dont
[01:27:18] <The_8472> you can keep as much information around as you want. just keep it separate from the routing table
[01:27:20] <choykloun> will still keep them though :P
[01:27:25] <choykloun> which i kinda do
[01:27:43] <The_8472> it didn't sound like that, at all ^^
[01:27:46] <choykloun> or does sometimes depending on which exact routing code i use
[01:28:52] <The_8472> other people's lookups depend on the correctness of your routing table. your lookups storing announces on the right nodes depends on a correct lookup procedure
[01:29:14] <choykloun> yah thats basically what im working on
[01:29:28] <The_8472> those are two different things
[01:32:23] <choykloun> i kinda do like the idea of just storing 8 nodes per entry.. i like static stables :P
[01:34:34] <swolchok> TheSHAD0W: scanning was me
[01:34:48] <swolchok> I think
[01:34:58] <TheSHAD0W> Heh.
[01:35:00] <TheSHAD0W> Okie.
[01:37:01] <swolchok> think I sent you that paper
[01:37:02] <swolchok> whateer
[01:39:01] <choykloun> the thing is i kina need to make some parts of this implementation look quite a bit better if im ever going to be able to show it without committing harakiri :P
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[01:51:07] <The_8472> speaking of harakiri..
[01:51:15] <The_8472> *implements survival mode in routing table*
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[01:56:56] <choyklou1>  how do you guys do with transactions btw
[01:57:23] <The_8472> what transactions?
[01:57:31] <The_8472> you mean transaction IDs?
[01:59:30] <choyklou1> ya
[02:00:00] <choyklou1> is there like any sort of timeout or re-use or
[02:00:13] <choyklou1> coz i do get invalid ids in responses sometimes
[02:01:28] <The_8472> in responses? my implementation always replies with the transaction ID sent by the requester
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[02:02:09] <The_8472> responding to requests should be completely stateless wrt. transaction IDs
[02:02:38] <The_8472> i only keep state for outgoing requests so i can match responses to the requests
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[02:03:54] <choyklou1> ya
[02:03:56] <choyklou1> same
[02:04:06] <choyklou1> was wondering if there aer any finer points to it
[02:06:59] <The_8472> well, not really. for reasons of simplicity i don't reuse transaction IDs until the request has been answered or timed out, but that shouldn't matter since you should match responses to requests on a <id,ip,port> basis
[02:07:05] <The_8472> oh, and i generate them randomly
[02:07:44] <The_8472> though receiving invalid transaction IDs... shouldn't be a fault on your end. unless you time out things too fast
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[02:10:32] <klapaucjusz> An alternative approach is to encode all of your state in the transaction id.
[02:10:44] <klapaucjusz> Then receiving replies can be stateless too.
[02:10:53] <klapaucjusz> But creates a number of vulnerabilities.
[02:11:07] <choyklou1> yes i did tht before
[02:11:11] <choyklou1> when just experimenting
[02:11:19] <klapaucjusz> Unless you're clever.  I'm not being clever in Transmission.
[02:11:22] <choyklou1> bt turns out a lot of clients dont espond to big transIDs
[02:11:23] <klapaucjusz> (Yet.)
[02:11:31] <klapaucjusz> I blacklist those.
[02:11:38] <klapaucjusz> (I'm using 4-octet tids.)
[02:12:14] <choyklou1> my first were basicaly just 1 byte specifying what query it was a response to :P
[02:13:29] <The_8472> i allow arbitrary-size transaction IDs
[02:13:43] <The_8472> and i use 2byte ones
[02:15:00] <The_8472> <klapaucjusz> Then receiving replies can be stateless too. <- i don't want that. making it stateful allows me to do crosschecks between the sent message and the recieved one for example
[02:15:11] <choyklou1> i use 32 bits, rand() .. should use something less predictable maybe
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[02:42:55] <choykloun> aaargh
[02:43:05] <TheSHAD0W> Connection issues?
[02:43:08] <choykloun> why does my chinese router keep state despite that it does no NAT or fw
[02:43:12] <choykloun> yes
[02:43:13] <TheSHAD0W> Stop DDoSing yourself!  ;-)
[02:43:24] <choykloun> it always does this when i even think of doing dht from home :(
[02:43:53] <choykloun> haha i was once developing a udp vpn/tunnel application remote
[02:43:56] <TheSHAD0W> Routers have to keep state in case they have overlapping ports from machines in the intranet.
[02:44:00] <choykloun> back when 10Mbps was like really fast
[02:44:04] <choykloun> and screwed up some loop
[02:44:13] <choykloun> so it took down the connection of the entire demo party
[02:44:22] <choykloun> theshadow: i dont ues NAT.
[02:44:35] <TheSHAD0W> ORLY?
[02:44:36] <TheSHAD0W> Heh.
[02:44:42] <TheSHAD0W> Then why use a router?
[02:44:54] <choykloun> to... route? :)
[02:45:02] <choykloun> between my subnet at the ISP?
[02:45:12] * TheSHAD0W shrugs
[02:45:14] <choykloun> thesame reasons routers have always been used for? :)
[02:45:14] <TheSHAD0W> Okie...
[02:45:40] <choykloun> you know what traceroute is?
[02:45:48] <choykloun> every address you see there is a router...
[02:45:58] <TheSHAD0W> Yes, I know.
[02:46:17] * TheSHAD0W thinks choykloun should pick up a really old machine and LRP it
[02:46:51] <choykloun> well i do have a couple of embeded lnux boxes around
[02:47:02] <choykloun> hey thy run custom software, distro and hardware
[02:47:13] <TheSHAD0W> Got any with two ports?
[02:47:24] <TheSHAD0W> (Or a color switch...)
[02:47:30] <choykloun> most of them have four
[02:47:39] <TheSHAD0W> Well, there ya go.
[02:47:44] <choykloun> ya
[02:47:49] <choykloun> ive done BGP in soekris boxes before
[02:47:53] <choykloun> just been too lazy
[02:48:03] <TheSHAD0W> Do you even need to use BGP?
[02:48:31] <choykloun> used to run it at home when i had a lab setup
[02:48:35] <TheSHAD0W> Hehe.
[02:48:44] <choykloun> i got a /28 to my home and announced it via bgp
[02:48:50] <choykloun> so i could learn when i later started an isp
[02:48:56] <choykloun> my current network is statically routed
[02:50:22] <swolchok> why not just pick up an old linksys box and run openwrt
[02:50:30] <swolchok> turn off conntrack for udp
[02:50:37] <swolchok> and nating and whatever
[02:50:40] <choykloun> i develop embedded systems
[02:50:47] <choykloun> so i kinda get them for free
[02:55:03] <The_8472> TheSHAD0W> Routers have to keep state in case they have overlapping ports from machines in the intranet. <- only if they do NAT
[02:55:19] <TheSHAD0W> Right, and then he said he doesn't do NAT.
[02:56:43] <The_8472> and my DHT's routing table will survive a nuclear blast now :)
[02:56:48] <The_8472> assuming the underlying hardware does
[02:57:31] <The_8472> no packets for 1 minute -> it enters a survival mode
[02:57:34] <swolchok> The_8472: I can back up your routing table in about half an hour...
[02:57:45] <The_8472> hrm?
[02:57:52] <swolchok> I have a Vuze scanner, remember?
[02:58:05] <The_8472> oh, that's not what i meant
[02:58:16] <The_8472> i'm talking about state maintenance and connection loss
[02:58:34] <The_8472> <The_8472> no packets for 1 minute -> it enters a survival mode <=
[02:59:38] <The_8472> i'm talking about the routing table of 1 node
[02:59:43] <The_8472> not of the entire DHT ^^
[03:03:12] <choykloun> Wed Dec 16 02:09:58 CET 2009 Mysec: The appliance is in PRODUCTION mode.
[03:03:12] <choykloun> Wed Dec 16 02:09:58 CET 2009 Mysec: Started setmode
[03:03:12] <choykloun> Wed Dec 16 02:09:58 CET 2009 Mysec: Startup ended at Wed Dec 16 02:09:58 CET 2009
[03:03:27] <choykloun> i dont feel like adding routing stuff to the flash card
[03:03:31] <choykloun> :/
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[05:25:21] <punto> what's the different between 'libtorrent' and 'libtorrent-rasterbar'?
[05:29:46] <The_8472> there are 2 different libraries called libtorrent
[05:30:10] <The_8472> libtorrent-rakshasa and libtorrent-rasterbar
[05:31:40] <K`Tetch> but only one o'dem likes reed stripe mon!
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[05:45:13] <punto> which one is better?
[05:49:58] <andar> rasterbar
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[08:42:46] <altNull> question: I need a guide to setup iptables on my linux box and pfsense web gui so i can torrent
[08:42:57] <altNull> does anyone have links to some guides i could use
[08:55:38] <altNull> hello?
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[08:58:04] <altNull> HELLO!?!
[09:07:04] <Switeck> nobody that's awake seems to know...
[09:27:04] <altNull> lol
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[14:42:25] <choykloun> hey guyz
[14:42:30] <choykloun> been busy pnntesting a casino
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[14:57:19] <dandon> choykloun: ?
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[15:12:22] <choykloun> ya
[15:12:34] <choykloun> was suppsed to rewrite the routing code of my dht implementation :P
[15:24:39] <dandon> no nothing. i didn't read it pnn testing
[15:25:13] <choykloun> ah ya my kbd is a bit borken
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