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[00:16:28] <K`Tetch_> anyone help me with some quick answers, really don't want to have to go wiresharking etc
[00:16:32] <K`Tetch_> brb phone
[00:21:23] <The_8472> if you had asked your question this might have been the answer
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[01:33:09] <K`Tetch_> The_8472 - sorry, wife was calling to tell me she was turning onto our road with dinner
[01:33:23] <K`Tetch_> and to come out to help empty the car
[01:33:45] <K`Tetch_> anyway, question is, roughtly how much data is sent+recieved in a typical announce?
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[01:37:38] <The_8472> http headers (GET) + ~ 40 bytes bencoded metadata + 6 * 50 bytes peer lists
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[01:38:34] <DeHackEd> yeah the payload is actually quite small, and most clients do small HTTP GET requests (no need for garbage like accept-*)
[01:40:04] <kjetilho> accept deflate can be useful :)
[01:40:19] <DeHackEd> compact mode pretty much killed that personally
[01:40:32] <K`Tetch_> so roughly what, 5kbytes?
[01:40:43] <K`Tetch_> each way?
[01:42:51] <DeHackEd> that much? I'd say less. even if you have an HTTP server like apache that inflates the headers a thousand ways.
[01:43:30] <Switeck> Sounds more like 0.5 KB
[01:43:37] <The_8472> it should fit into 1-2 packets. add 3 packets tcp handshake and 2 for teardown.
[01:44:07] <Switeck> none of those packets are anywhere near max size MTU of 1500 bytes?
[01:45:16] <kjetilho> ideally: SYN, SYN ACK, ACK + DATA, -- then the reply, which may require 2-3 packets, then ACK FIN, ACK
[01:45:21] <kjetilho> (first DATA is the GET request, which should fit in the packet)
[01:46:10] <kjetilho> in practice I don't think you'll be able to combine the ACK of DATA with FIN, though.
[01:46:20] <The_8472> could be more if data isn't piggybacked on the ack for example. and i think tcp teardown can cause additional packets in some stacks too
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[01:49:11] <Switeck> 5 ton mail truck to deliver a postcard?
[01:49:18] <The_8472> hence the udp tracker protocol
[01:49:48] <The_8472> erdgeist has been preaching about that ^^
[01:50:10] <The_8472> but hey, DHT announces are far worse
[01:51:12] <The_8472> they're more like using a presidential convoy to deliver a postcard
[01:51:12] <The_8472> but then again there is no central server that could get overloaded
[01:52:16] <Switeck> that won't get sympathy from me
[01:52:16] <kjetilho> how does the UDP announce protocol handle packet loss?
[01:52:16] <The_8472> that's up to implementations i think
[01:53:11] <The_8472> but you can implement it in a stateless fashion on the server side, so the client is free to just resend requests and do some exponential backoff or whatever
[01:53:54] <kjetilho> so a client can use a partial answer?
[01:54:34] <kjetilho> with a saturated downlink, a client can be asking for peer lists a lot more often than every five minutes...
[01:55:06] <The_8472> http://xbtt.sourceforge.net/udp_tracker_protocol.html
[01:55:16] <kjetilho> most of the time using UDP instead of TCP just causes more complexity and a lot worse worst case
[01:56:41] <The_8472> you basically need 4 packets for an announce. the first 2 packets serve as handshake and can be recycled within a small timeframe to do multiple announce or scrape packet exchanges
[01:59:09] <kjetilho> the spec doesn't say how many peers you can ask for
[01:59:27] <kjetilho> seems like multipacket responses aren't supported?
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[01:59:41] <kjetilho> how does it handle packet fragmentation or small MTU?
[02:00:07] <The_8472> packet fragmentation is handled at the IP level
[02:00:18] <The_8472> so either you get all fragments or you don't
[02:00:28] <The_8472> and small MTUs don't exist
[02:00:41] <kjetilho> hah
[02:01:03] * kjetilho is using a small MTU just now :/
[02:01:10] <kjetilho> (VPN tunnel)
[02:01:31] <The_8472> well, still more than 1200 bytes, no?
[02:01:46] <kjetilho> yes.  where does 1200 come from?
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[02:02:02] <kjetilho> minimum MTU is 500 and something.
[02:02:13] <Switeck> tracker hands out up to 200 ips per torrent, right?
[02:02:32] <The_8472> nah, more like 50 or so
[02:02:43] <kjetilho> well, it's at least six bytes per peer
[02:02:46] <Switeck> I'll say again...up to
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[02:02:58] <kjetilho> assuming IPv4
[02:03:01] <Switeck> meaning even if most limit themselves to 50, there are some that do 200.
[02:03:02] <The_8472> well, depends on the implementation
[02:03:22] <The_8472> but yes, they can if they want to
[02:03:24] <Switeck> 200 peers, packed ip format+port = 6 bytes per ip x 200 = 1200 bytes
[02:03:27] <The_8472> not that there's any need
[02:03:29] * kjetilho really doesn't see the benefit over just using HTTP/TCP
[02:04:06] <kjetilho> HTTP overhead isn't an issue at all.
[02:04:11] <K`Tetch_> 1kb is a good average, and will do for what I had in mind
[02:04:20] <The_8472> it's not the HTTP part, it's handling TCP
[02:04:32] <Switeck> mix in any IPv6 addresses, and all bets are off XD
[02:04:33] <kjetilho> TCP is *really* not an issue
[02:04:44] <The_8472> apparently it is.
[02:05:02] <The_8472> if you're handling about 10k requests per second
[02:05:06] <kjetilho> perhaps if you're running on a Pentium 60 with 3c509 NIC
[02:05:21] <TheSHAD0W> That's a lot of peers.
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[02:05:39] <TheSHAD0W> 10 million peers on that tracker, maybe?
[02:05:53] <kjetilho> just choosing the random peers to report back will consume a lot more processing than TCP does
[02:05:55] <Switeck> TCP probably becomes an issue even before 1k requests in progress at once.
[02:06:19] <The_8472> well, for (ex-)TPB and similar public trackers TCP handlign is a serious issue. especially the socket management in the kernel, TIME_WAIT stuff and all
[02:06:23] <TheSHAD0W> http://torrentfreak.com/private-bittorrent-trackers-commit-suicide-with-rising-costs-091214/
[02:07:01] <K`Tetch_> yeah, I'm working on some extensions to that, TheSHAD0W
[02:07:15] <kjetilho> you get an issue with socket limitations when you have frontends talking to the backend -- it limits you to 64 Ki connections within 2 minutes by default
[02:07:18] <kjetilho> (TCP tuples)
[02:07:33] <kjetilho> but it's a well known problem with well known solutions
[02:08:02] <K`Tetch_> I actually got banned from a private tracker community forum yesterday, for poiting out, for instance, that the reason they find publics so slow, is having so many torrents active means bad settings, and that ratio-cheating doesn't really affect anything
[02:09:23] <The_8472> publics are slow because everyone is hit&running on public trackers so they can get a bigger pe... ratio on private trackers
[02:10:12] <K`Tetch_> I think it's also got something to do with people having 150+ torrents active
[02:10:22] <The_8472> that's idiotic
[02:10:51] <The_8472> i have 853 torrents in my client, 852 of those are queued
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[02:13:34] <kjetilho> The_8472: interesting -- how will the single torrent to run be chosen?  (assuming they are all 100% complete)
[02:13:48] <The_8472> based on scrapes
[02:13:57] <kjetilho> pick the one with no seeds and most peers?
[02:14:16] <The_8472> various rules are available
[02:14:44] <The_8472> i'm currently using one based on a weighted difference between seeds and peers
[02:14:55] <The_8472> so yeah, basically more peers, fewer seeds
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[02:39:39] <oneforall> where is the souce for linux? at the download page all I see is win,Language and mac
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[02:40:36] <chelz> oneforall: the current official BitTorrent client is based off of uTorrent which is not open source
[02:41:03] <chelz> linux users are advised to use Wine or choose another client
[02:41:45] <Switeck> and by "wine", they mean latest DEV version of wine
[02:42:20] <oneforall> ouch first i herd of thios :(
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[02:44:46] <chelz> eh i used it fine for a while with v1.1 or v1.0.1
[02:45:02] <chelz> it would get really unstable with over 100 torrents so i switched to rtorrent
[02:45:40] <oneforall> last one I did was 5.2.2
[02:47:26] <oneforall> weird all i see that one under is mac .
[02:47:27] <Switeck> uTorrent with wine dev might be fine with a lot more than 100 torrents.
[02:48:16] <chelz> i prefer using OSS when i can so it's probably for the best that i finally gave it up
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[02:55:32] <DeHackEd> if you want "official", go find the old python client. Realistically pick something else. BitTornado, Vuze, rTorrent...
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[02:56:08] <chelz> transmission seems to be what most linux users use these days
[02:56:29] <DeHackEd> oh yuck
[02:56:51] <chelz> haha
[02:57:23] <chelz> well from a user coming from uTorrent, transmission isn't too much of a change
[02:57:51] <DeHackEd> I have special needs. Notably the ability to ssh in and mess with things. So it's a command-line client for me.
[02:59:03] <chelz> yeah same
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[20:10:59] <ChoyKloun> hay everyone
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[20:11:45] <ChoyKloun> ok official announcement from me if anyone relevant is alive to hear it
[20:11:54] <ChoyKloun> i'll restrict my future work with dht/bt to a bare minimum and focus on tor instead
[20:12:20] <ChoyKloun> as i cant take fucking getting flamed for coming with suggestions and bringing in new concepts and wanting a technical debate of their merits
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[20:14:00] <The_8472> lol
[20:14:07] <ChoyKloun> seriously
[20:14:11] <ChoyKloun> its beyond ridiculous
[20:14:19] <ChoyKloun> those who know i mean know who they are
[20:14:22] <ChoyKloun> you are not one of them obviously
[20:14:31] <The_8472> the point is that you weren't factual. you spewed personal believes, anecdotes etc.
[20:14:36] <The_8472> that's now how you have a factual discussion
[20:14:41] <ChoyKloun> its not about your posts
[20:14:47] <ChoyKloun> not at all
[20:14:47] <The_8472> doesn't matter
[20:14:47] <alus> ChoyKloun: which dht implementation do you work on?
[20:14:58] <ChoyKloun> alus: my own experimental
[20:14:59] <The_8472> i can understand why others react the way they did
[20:15:15] <alus> ChoyKloun: do you sit here under a different nick usually?
[20:15:19] <ChoyKloun> no
[20:15:22] <ChoyKloun> but im not here often
[20:15:26] <alus> ah
[20:15:42] <alus> where were you having the discussion The_8472 is referring to?
[20:15:43] <ChoyKloun> the_8472: its not about you
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[20:15:48] <ChoyKloun> and its not about me being flawless
[20:15:57] <ChoyKloun> im not exactly the king of diplomacy
[20:16:19] <ChoyKloun> but there are some things i cant take
[20:16:51] <ChoyKloun> and again
[20:16:55] <ChoyKloun> its not about anything youve ever said
[20:16:57] <ChoyKloun> or posted
[20:16:59] <ChoyKloun> or whatever
[20:17:04] <The_8472> i never implied that
[20:17:48] <ChoyKloun> i can handle a good usenet flamewar.. its not about that
[20:17:54] <ChoyKloun> (and again, you've never flamed me)
[20:18:00] <ChoyKloun> not without reason atleast :P
[20:18:17] <The_8472> you already said so, you do not have to repeat yourself over and over
[20:18:27] <ChoyKloun> just want to make it clear, ok?
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[20:18:59] <The_8472> anyway, my point was that the way you were starting the discussion was not how you discuss technical issues. engineering is not politics
[20:19:13] <ChoyKloun> i didnt even start that thread
[20:19:17] <ChoyKloun> and its not only about the thread
[20:19:27] <The_8472> then idk
[20:20:16] <ChoyKloun> if any of my work is appreciated then i'll still be here from time to time
[20:20:24] <ChoyKloun> and discuss issues with people like for example you
[20:20:59] <DreadWingKnight> I'm pretty sure I wasn't involved in what started this
[20:21:03] <ChoyKloun> nope
[20:21:20] <ChoyKloun> and this isnt like a single incident
[20:21:34] <ChoyKloun> its what can you call it. the culture of certain people involved
[20:21:50] <ChoyKloun> developers can be bitches sometimes
[20:21:54] <ChoyKloun> might just be a chemistry issue here
[20:22:41] <ChoyKloun> (and that phrase includes me obviously)
[20:24:35] <The_8472> well, i can be pretty annoying over things too when i strongly dislike someone else's opinion on a particular topic. that doesn't mean i can't work with them on other topics though
[20:24:56] <ChoyKloun> ya
[20:25:02] <ChoyKloun> but here we have that simply not happening
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[20:25:48] <The_8472> well, i'm not sure if anyone cares though
[20:26:19] <ChoyKloun> if noone cares thats fine with me
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[20:27:04] <ChoyKloun> i just find the worlds biggest decentralized network highly fascinate
[20:27:04] <ChoyKloun> fascinating*
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[20:27:55] <ChoyKloun> and if issues like DoS amp arent seen as important then thats fine
[20:28:23] <ChoyKloun> except me and a lot of others might end up having to defend against the results if it reaches usage on even 1/10 the scale of dns amp
[20:29:09] <_rafi2_> is your announcement done yet ? ...
[20:29:33] <ChoyKloun> yes
[20:29:39] <ChoyKloun> should i part the channel?
[20:29:40] <_rafi2_> k... :)
[20:29:49] <_rafi2_> up to you
[20:30:08] <_rafi2_> just wanted to know ;)
[20:30:17] <GTHK> Nuuuuuuuuu. I found the DHT discussions interesting >.>
[20:30:54] <ChoyKloun> can someone nuke my acct on the forum though? and preferably all my posts if that isnt against forum rules
[20:31:39] <_rafi2_> are you saying goodbye ?... nooo
[20:31:53] <ChoyKloun> only to forum i hope
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[20:32:09] <ChoyKloun> if im welcome here and anything ive brought up is deemed relevant then ill stay
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[20:33:20] <ChoyKloun> and youll see a proposal or two once i start parttime at work (i.e. working 12h days) :D
[20:34:26] <ChoyKloun> just sold off our company so that might help heh
[20:34:49] <_rafi_> for how much ?
[20:35:13] <ChoyKloun> $160k
[20:35:17] <ChoyKloun> which works out to around $20k/employee
[20:35:35] <_rafi_> nice
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[20:36:44] <_rafi_> and the company was in what area ?
[20:36:46] <ChoyKloun> which is a good change from appx $0 or negative 6m ago
[20:36:49] <ChoyKloun> it outsourcing
[20:36:53] <ChoyKloun> web development mostly
[20:37:20] <ChoyKloun> think of it as a hightech sweatshop ... :)
[20:37:23] <ChoyKloun> with air conditioning :)
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[20:37:57] <ChoyKloun> our total staff of 5 developers (all having at least a bachelors degree in computer science or related field) + 2 admin staff costs appx $2200/month
[20:38:05] <ChoyKloun> which is less than 1 western developer
[20:38:29] <ChoyKloun> the founder had tried to expand and move out of the local market and do international work instead
[20:38:34] <ChoyKloun> but this failed utterly
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[20:38:56] <ChoyKloun> so i put in a few grand, helped bring in work, and took the role of tech manager/CTO
[20:39:59] <ChoyKloun> then i probably shortened my lifespan with 10 and grow my ulcer to the size of a lunar crater for about 6m
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[20:41:10] <ChoyKloun> probably the reason for me being a bit stingy when i come home and read stuff on forums :P
[20:41:15] <ChoyKloun> like
[20:41:44] <DreadWingKnight> my day job is newspaper delivery
[20:41:59] <ChoyKloun> coming from our office in chinatown at 10pm and then reading a post telling me i hate china kinda doesnt make for a good response (explanation, not excuse)
[20:42:00] <_rafi_> and I thought your announcement was done... ;P people are trying to sleep in here ... :)
[20:42:24] <ChoyKloun> jesus christ im not barack obama
[20:42:30] <ChoyKloun> or hugo chavez having a 3 hour rant on primetime tv
[20:42:31] <ChoyKloun> :P
[20:42:53] <ChoyKloun> its not like the future of this planet or even this project depends on anything i do :p
[20:44:23] <ChoyKloun> the_8472: regarding crypto of communications, we'll soon be deploying atleast a couple of hundred embedded systems doing it (in my second dayjob)
[20:44:25] <ChoyKloun> so will get some reallife data from there
[20:44:37] <ChoyKloun> its a bit similar to dht
[20:44:42] <ChoyKloun> in terms of exchange length and frequency etc
[20:45:14] <ChoyKloun> so should give an idea of whether its worth pursing with dht
[20:45:57] <ChoyKloun> (its alarm systems doing transmissions and polling/pinging)
[20:46:09] <ChoyKloun> have a bunch of our dev systems sitting on the floor strategically located between the couch and the desk lol
[20:50:35] <ChoyKloun> should secretly make them all into bittorrent trackers hahahaha
[20:50:55] <ChoyKloun> well ok none of them are accessible from the net
[20:51:02] <ChoyKloun> most at the moment run over a dedicated fiber network
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[20:55:32] <ChoyKloun> "this? this is the microcontroller running the alarm sensors"
[20:55:39] <ChoyKloun> "that? oh thats the bittorrent ASIC"
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[21:14:19] <klapaucjusz> The_8472: we need you over at #transmission.
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[21:36:39] <JudgeSHAD0W> http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/12/15/1925257
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