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[01:31:25] <TheSHAD0W> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1234906/State-schools-admit-push-gifted-pupils-dont-want-promote-elitism.html
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[02:04:16] <TheSHAD0W> http://forums.degreez.net/viewtopic.php?t=7757
[02:06:05] <MiniDe> how do you intend to reply?
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[02:08:38] <TheSHAD0W> Don't know if I will.
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[02:17:10] <MiniDe> hehe. is interpol coming...
[02:17:13] <MiniDe> I'm almost tempted to reply
[02:18:42] <DreadWingKnight> I'll make it simple for you shadow
[02:20:18] <DreadWingKnight> refresh the thread
[02:31:06] * TheSHAD0W responded
[02:48:32] <TheSHAD0W> http://forums.degreez.net/viewtopic.php?t=7757
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[08:06:08] <chelz> a quote that keeps popping up in my mind:
[08:06:10] <chelz> "Bittorrent only does file transfer. All other p2p clients do file transfer and search.
[08:06:12] <chelz> Bittorrent is massively popular. All other p2p clients are struggling to get anyone to use them.
[08:06:14] <chelz> And what lesson do people learn from this? Apparently that Bittorrent needs search. "
[08:06:20] <chelz> from http://tech.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1010567&cid=25545857
[08:06:49] <TheSHAD0W>  Well.
[08:06:56] <chelz> non-p2p-decentralized search just doesn't seem applicable anywhere
[08:07:15] <Switeck> for everything else, there's GOOGLE
[08:07:27] <TheSHAD0W> Decentralizing search has its own issues, and it's convenient to have a web page do it.
[08:07:41] <TheSHAD0W> BitTorrent was designed for transfer, not sharing.
[08:08:06] <chelz> indeed. it is viewed in a filesharing light often though.
[08:08:22] <TheSHAD0W> Yes, it's surprisingly good at it.
[08:08:34] <chelz> so many other nice things come with a webpage doing the search too, like a clear way to remove fake/invalid torrents.
[08:08:43] <TheSHAD0W> But if you really wanted to share, you could do better with a different tool.
[08:08:57] <chelz> for so long i thought that some kind of proper p2p network just needed to be created with decentralized search
[08:09:01] <TheSHAD0W> I had a concept for a new sharing tool, I've been thinking of coding it up.
[08:09:05] <TheSHAD0W> It's *very* simple.
[08:09:19] <chelz> i'm interested to hear about it
[08:09:22] <TheSHAD0W> Solves a lot of bandwidth problems.
[08:09:36] <chelz> right now it doesn't seem like anything can beat torrents and torrent indexes
[08:09:36] <TheSHAD0W> Because it doesn't use bandwidth.
[08:09:54] <TheSHAD0W> It'd also be hell for the *AA folks to try and enforce.
[08:10:15] <chelz> but how does it work?
[08:10:47] <TheSHAD0W> On local networks.
[08:11:39] <chelz> aha, i was thinking up something like that recently. that there isn't a defacto client for lan sharing and the existing solutions have a bit to be desired.
[08:11:56] <Switeck> Shadow, does that count virtual LANs?
[08:12:05] <TheSHAD0W> It can, but isn't meant to.
[08:12:16] <chelz> so it's meant for LANs?
[08:12:21] <TheSHAD0W> Right.
[08:12:25] <TheSHAD0W> Well.
[08:12:29] <TheSHAD0W> LANs and WANs.
[08:12:44] <TheSHAD0W> You walk into a coffee shop, get a cup o' brew, sit down and surf the web.
[08:13:12] <TheSHAD0W> Meanwhile your PC hooks up with everyone on their Wifi with the software and tells you what they have, and offers what you have.
[08:13:22] <chelz> WAN as in something internet fits into?
[08:13:31] <chelz> or ';wireless'
[08:13:35] <TheSHAD0W> Wireless.
[08:13:41] <TheSHAD0W> Sorry.
[08:13:44] <chelz> ah, np
[08:13:59] <TheSHAD0W> It'd be great for a wifi party, too.
[08:14:05] <chelz> yeah totally
[08:14:25] <chelz> yeah that would be awesome, but i think some thought on the outset should be put towards combating network admins trying to mess with it or block it
[08:14:38] <TheSHAD0W> Not possible, unfortunately.
[08:14:52] <TheSHAD0W> But it'd be difficult to block w/o an advanced router.
[08:14:56] <chelz> well something would be better than nothing
[08:15:12] <TheSHAD0W> You'd have to filter broadcast messages.
[08:15:53] <chelz> would that prevent transfers from working or just new clients bootstrapping?
[08:16:03] <TheSHAD0W> New clients.
[08:16:17] <chelz> yeah that would be tough
[08:16:22] <TheSHAD0W> All transfers and requests would be point-to-point.
[08:16:43] <chelz> but i'm also thinking of trying to block existing networks that are already formed and people are aware of other nodes already
[08:16:59] <TheSHAD0W> ...
[08:17:01] <TheSHAD0W> Huh?
[08:17:40] <chelz> well say for example DC++, isn't it possible for current network to block DC++ traffic if they have a router looking for it?
[08:18:35] <TheSHAD0W> I don't understand how this connects w/ my little idea.
[08:20:24] <chelz> an adversarial network could block its use, i'm just suggesting keeping in mind that such networks might eventually exist and some design decisions could be made to make it harder. masquerading the traffic for example.
[08:21:27] <TheSHAD0W> Hum.
[08:24:58] <TheSHAD0W> Yeah, point-to-point traffic should be encrypted.
[08:25:23] <chelz> yeah. stuff to make deeppacket inspecting difficult
[08:25:27] <TheSHAD0W> That way, while someone could tell what a person was sharing, they wouldn't be able to tell what was being sent.
[08:25:45] <TheSHAD0W> Of course, having the sent item pop up on the other computer once the transfer was done might be telling.  :-P
[08:25:48] <chelz> that's a good idea. i was wondering if some ideas from tor/freenet might be applicable
[08:26:03] <chelz> hah, well we have to assume that users can secure their own computers
[08:26:06] <chelz> TheSHAD0W: http://lanshark.29a.ch/ - this is the closest to the client i have in mind that i've found
[08:26:06] <TheSHAD0W> It'd be overkill, unnecessary.
[08:26:47] <TheSHAD0W> That's just about what I was thinking of.
[08:27:47] <chelz> i think they could do a bit better with the listing aspect. combining files people have so there could be multisource downloading.
[08:28:10] <chelz> also i'm not really sure what the best method of search would be.
[08:28:10] <TheSHAD0W> Not really necessary considering LAN bandwidth.
[08:28:35] <TheSHAD0W> Search would be secondary too, there'd be a limited list of files in the local universe.
[08:28:53] <chelz> i don't really see any reason to not have multisource downloading since any speedup would probably be appreciated. perhaps there could be a threshold before it kicks in
[08:29:20] <TheSHAD0W> You'd probably saturate the available connection with a single download.
[08:29:34] <chelz> assuming no one else is downloading from that user
[08:29:42] <chelz> i'm thinking of active swarms
[08:30:16] <chelz> say one computer has all the ISOs for the latest linux distros, i'd think a lot of people would want them and without multisource there's no swarm
[08:30:17] <TheSHAD0W> For a wifi network, multiple downloads would load down the network, multisource would just muddy things.
[08:31:03] <chelz> i'm not so sure. if there are multiple clients per server i don't see a case where it wouldn't be a speedup
[08:31:22] <chelz> autograbbing stuff, like people do currently with RSS feeds and show episodes, might be something to think about also
[08:31:43] <TheSHAD0W> For an infrastructure-mode wan, yeah, everything has to pass through the access point.
[08:32:05] <TheSHAD0W> So you're limited to 54 megabits on a G network.
[08:32:25] <TheSHAD0W> I think you'd saturate the network very quickly.
[08:33:01] <chelz> ah i'm not sure then. ideally there'd be a way to automate disabling multisource when on a wifi connection. that would be a pretty OS-specific thing but it wouldn't be impossible.
[08:33:18] <TheSHAD0W> Even ad-hoc mode, I think you'd wind up saturating the network.
[08:33:25] <chelz> well to be more precise, disable multisource when the sharing client is using the wifi.
[08:33:53] <TheSHAD0W> Nice, lanshark just uses http.
[08:36:14] <TheSHAD0W> Reminds me of gnutella.
[08:37:17] <chelz> i'd say it needs some work but lanshark or something based on it could have a chance of replacing DC++ on most college LANs
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[08:41:18] <chelz> https://answers.launchpad.net/lanshark/+question/68837
[08:41:51] <chelz> unanswered q about a campus lan, which is along the lines of the primary use case for such a lan sharing tool
[08:42:33] <chelz> if a client can do well, is lightweight/fast enough, and can navigate a network for a college lan, then it should work anywhere
[08:44:16] <Switeck> It'll give a whole new meaning to sharing an invite when that means someone will have to VPN into the LAN.
[08:44:42] <chelz> haha
[08:45:02] <chelz> that would be pretty wild. a bunch of lans sharing between VPNs.
[08:45:23] <chelz> almost like an Internet2 or LHC GRID for any kind of filesharing
[08:52:20] <Switeck> The VPN may be blissfully unaware of the exact traffic through itself.
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[08:57:14] <Switeck> net neutrality was sorely lacking in the 1870's:  http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2009/12/how-the-robber-barons-hijacked-the-victorian-internet.ars
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[09:25:59] <chelz> interesting article
[09:26:52] <chelz> it probably wouldn't be too good if somehow that LAN sharing caught on through VPNs if the clients weren't aware of the VPN and made bad decisions on which peers to pick to download from. eg nonlocal
[09:29:16] <Switeck> that would easily be the case if the VPN were linking LANs instead of just single endpoints to the LAN
[09:31:01] <chelz> seems like a custom private tracker would do a better job in that scenario
[09:31:36] <chelz> or at least incorporating some VPN features into the p2p protocol in use, but that's harder than a private tracker and apparently not what people like to use
[09:31:41] <Switeck> I'm not so sure that's true
[09:31:53] <Switeck> not when you're dealing with potentially millions of files
[09:32:12] <Switeck> .torrent files are an artificial construct for what we're really wanting
[09:32:14] <chelz> ah, that would be difficult to manage
[09:32:32] <chelz> yeah for millions of files it wouldn't work
[09:33:18] <chelz> but one thing i see private trackers do really well is creating an organized catalog of certain things. for example say all the albums from a musician or all movies from a director or actor. structure is easily created/imposed
[09:33:39] <chelz> large amount of disparate files probably fit more with Kademlia
[09:33:50] <Switeck> updates to files...also become a minor issue
[10:06:27] <chelz> yeah. i've seen that with torrents for sets of things. usually new torrents are posted with the new items and people are just told to save in the same location to only download the new stuff.
[10:06:49] <chelz> i'm not aware of any distributed p2p networks that handle pushing out updates to files automatically, but that is an interesting idea
[10:22:51] <Switeck> ironically, I believe some BitTorrent client makers use a distributed p2p network of sorts to push out updates
[10:23:06] <Switeck> well, partial p2p
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[10:27:30] <chelz> azureus uses full bittorrent for updates i know for sure
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[10:45:24] <Switeck> The architecture for managing the automatic update for ONE program is difficult, for everything...certainly a nightmare without planning from the very start with that goal in mind.
[10:46:41] <chelz> indeed. i wonder if there are any good existing specs for decentralized systems for updating.
[10:47:18] <chelz> i'm also curious what people do currently when they want a WASTE-like Friend-to-Friend (F2F) network setup. perhaps GNUnet.
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[10:57:40] <Switeck> I cringe at the complexity of it all
[10:57:44] <Switeck> not as a programmer
[10:57:56] <Switeck> but as someone who will be called on to beta-test it.
[10:59:26] <chelz> haha
[10:59:34] <chelz> it seems demonoid is back btw
[11:00:13] <chelz> and that news about TPB not appealing the removal of its torrents is interesting
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[11:57:15] <DreadWingKnight> chelz: alliance
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[12:03:04] <cteg> morning
[12:03:42] <cteg> i have to minor problems with vuze...
[12:03:44] <cteg> ,--8<-
[12:03:44] <cteg> |i have two things i cant figure out...setting up a media
[12:03:44] <cteg> |                       player for it, and setting a browser, it wont show up
[12:03:48] <cteg> `-->8-
[12:03:50] <cteg> oops.
[12:03:56] <cteg> again
[12:04:11] <cteg> first thing, setting up a media player for it
[12:04:20] <cteg> and setting up a browser for help display etc
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