[00:01:55] *** burris has joined #bittorrent
[00:04:39] *** JudgeSHAD0W has quit IRC
[00:06:09] *** _rafi_ has quit IRC
[00:21:41] *** GTHKn has joined #bittorrent
[00:39:31] *** GTHK has quit IRC
[00:40:29] *** andar2 has quit IRC
[00:47:44] *** chelz has quit IRC
[00:48:15] *** chelz has joined #bittorrent
[00:59:49] *** bittwist has joined #BitTorrent
[01:13:03] *** Andrius has quit IRC
[01:20:04] *** bt42 has quit IRC
[02:19:30] *** Vince99 has quit IRC
[03:22:59] *** morgajel has quit IRC
[03:35:50] *** chelz has quit IRC
[04:05:41] *** The_8472 has quit IRC
[04:06:01] *** wadim has joined #bittorrent
[04:06:03] *** wadim is now known as The_8472
[04:50:32] *** goussx has quit IRC
[04:55:51] *** KyleK_ has quit IRC
[05:20:00] *** goussx has joined #bittorrent
[05:33:45] *** ajaya has quit IRC
[05:34:41] *** ajaya has joined #bittorrent
[05:35:15] <TheSHAD0W> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pgNpDBFKpwU
[05:37:31] <Switeck> Shadow, we're really not into that kind of bestiality porn
[05:37:57] <TheSHAD0W> You're no fun.  :-P
[05:38:31] *** L337hium has quit IRC
[05:39:33] <Switeck> was really sad too, my spellchecker told me I had bestiality spelled wrong
[05:39:45] <Switeck> (shows you how much I use it in google searches!)
[05:41:43] *** Gottaname has quit IRC
[05:43:22] <TheSHAD0W> Besides, it's not beastiality, it's furry porn.  (See last 5 seconds.)
[05:43:47] <Switeck> apparently you're not into it either XD
[05:47:09] *** Gottaname has joined #bittorrent
[06:27:25] *** Guiri has joined #bittorrent
[06:34:33] *** Guiri has left #bittorrent
[07:06:04] *** ajaya has quit IRC
[07:13:41] *** MassaRoddel has quit IRC
[07:42:05] *** kwinz2 has joined #bittorrent
[07:53:43] *** GTHKn has quit IRC
[08:10:31] *** Andrius has joined #bittorrent
[08:32:11] *** MassaRoddel has joined #bittorrent
[08:48:56] *** init0 has joined #bittorrent
[08:59:45] *** init0__ has quit IRC
[09:36:51] *** kwinz2 has quit IRC
[09:48:14] *** kwinz2 has joined #bittorrent
[09:51:59] *** kwinz2_ has joined #bittorrent
[10:07:58] *** kwinz2 has quit IRC
[10:12:47] *** kwinz2_ has quit IRC
[10:41:30] *** kwinz2_ has joined #bittorrent
[10:54:06] <mpl> http://www.break.com/pictures/torrent-hating-marquee1541276.html
[10:54:36] *** terdon_ has joined #bittorrent
[10:54:54] *** terdon_ is now known as porter
[11:17:16] *** charles has quit IRC
[11:17:28] *** charles has joined #bittorrent
[12:05:01] *** init0 has quit IRC
[12:07:53] *** init0 has joined #bittorrent
[12:27:39] *** kwinz2_ has quit IRC
[12:32:35] *** Andrius has quit IRC
[12:33:11] *** goussx_ has joined #bittorrent
[12:38:56] *** Migi32 has joined #bittorrent
[12:39:11] *** ivan` has quit IRC
[12:39:22] *** ivan` has joined #bittorrent
[12:40:09] <Migi32> hey everyone. I don't get how DHT's work. I mean, sure you can exchange peers once you get your first peer, but how are you going to get that first peer without a central server?
[12:41:05] <DreadWingKnight> you heard of bootstrapping?
[12:41:30] * Migi32 googles
[12:42:23] <Migi32> well there's apparently a million meanings of bootstrapping
[12:42:46] <Migi32> what does it mean in a bittorrent context?
[12:43:35] <DreadWingKnight> basically, it's obtaining an entry point into the DHT cloud
[12:43:45] <DreadWingKnight> and there are many ways to do it
[12:43:51] <DreadWingKnight> including from other peers on previous torrents
[12:44:02] <DreadWingKnight> using hardcoded entry nodes in the clients
[12:44:16] <DreadWingKnight> using entry nodes defined in a .torrent file
[12:49:14] *** goussx has quit IRC
[12:49:15] *** goussx_ is now known as goussx
[12:52:54] <Migi32> including from other peers on previous torrents <- this does not apply to new users
[12:52:54] <Migi32> using hardcoded entry nodes in the clients <- this basically still means central nodes
[12:52:54] <Migi32> using entry nodes defined in a .torrent file <- these nodes (who are actually also central in a way) will eventually fail.
[12:52:54] <Migi32> I'm kinda disappointed, I had hoped for a "real" solution that could also be used for applications on a smaller scale and higher dynamicness as bittorrent (like the games I develop)
[13:00:28] <DreadWingKnight> if you use a tracker-based torrent before you use a DHT-based one, it will still work
[13:00:55] <DreadWingKnight> and the creator of any torrent can define any practical number of DHT entry nodes
[13:01:03] *** KyleK_ has joined #bittorrent
[13:01:25] <DreadWingKnight> and if you understand bencode enough, you can manually bootstrap if you know the information of a functioning node
[13:07:22] *** kwinz2 has joined #bittorrent
[14:07:38] <The_8472> <Migi32> using hardcoded entry nodes in the clients <- this basically still means central nodes <- no, it does not
[14:08:23] <The_8472> just because they're hardcoded does not mean they're "central" in any way
[14:09:27] <The_8472> in fact, instead of hardcoding them you could add a user-editable list to the client. Then anyone can run a perfectly average DHT node on some computer, publish hostname:port and users can use it to join the DHT
[14:09:51] <The_8472> hardcoding them is just a lazy way to getting "any" node
[14:09:59] <The_8472> since there's no need for anything more complex right now
[14:10:04] <Migi32> The_8472, no, they are central. If I develop a game where people can play against each other, I would need to hardcode a few central nodes of which I'm sure at least 1 will be running at any given time
[14:10:18] <Migi32> sure, they don't need to be servers
[14:10:28] <Migi32> they can be users, but they're central.
[14:11:01] <The_8472> then you have a very odd definition of "central" in the context of distributed networks
[14:11:08] <Migi32> because in a DHT, actually every user is a mini-tracker of it's own
[14:11:49] <The_8472> because the commonly accepted meaning of "central" in this context is that those nodes perform an essential role that would cause a more or less immediate breakdown of the network if they ceased to exist
[14:12:01] <The_8472> which is not the case
[14:12:13] <Migi32> err, yes it is the case
[14:12:33] <The_8472> no, it is not
[14:12:40] <Migi32> if all nodes that are hard-coded entry points in the clients cease to exist, you don't have entry points
[14:13:02] <The_8472> no, you don't have hardcoded entry points anymore. but that's all
[14:13:22] <The_8472> <DreadWingKnight> and there are many ways to do it <-
[14:13:47] <Migi32> but no fail-safe ways that would work on a smaller and more dynamic scale than bittorrent
[14:14:18] * The_8472 facepalms
[14:14:52] <The_8472> what do you expect? a crystal ball that tells a computer random IPs?
[14:15:04] <The_8472> of course you need SOME way to discover the first node
[14:15:15] <The_8472> but that does not mean that first node is "central" in any way
[14:15:43] <kjetilho> The_8472: it could be transmitted over shortwave
[14:16:06] <kjetilho> just plug the antenna into your microphone jack and listen for the signal
[14:16:19] <Migi32> lol
[14:16:19] <The_8472> you could argue that they're "central" if hardcoding them is the ONLY way to obtain such nodes. But that's not the case. Hardcoding them is just what's the currently chosen method.
[14:17:30] <DreadWingKnight> you only need the ip and port of one node in a dht cloud in order to be able to join that cloud
[14:17:34] <Migi32> it's kind of hard to imagine that real, human users would pick a random peer and hard-code him. You must admit that these hard-coded entry-points will most likely be what trackers used to be before
[14:17:54] <The_8472> no, trackers weren't entry points
[14:18:16] <The_8472> they were central servers coordinating the swarm
[14:18:26] *** kwinz2 has quit IRC
[14:18:33] <The_8472> without the tracker there wasn't a swarm (before DHT/PEX)
[14:18:35] <Migi32> The_8472, you are wasting my time
[14:18:37] <Migi32> bye
[14:18:39] *** Migi32 has left #bittorrent
[14:18:41] <The_8472> finally
[14:19:44] <DreadWingKnight> thicker than the ablative plating on the defiant from DS9
[14:19:47] <The_8472> btw.... Eureqa is an awesome tool. I just dumped some noisy statistics into it and it spews out equations describing them pretty well :)
[14:21:20] <The_8472> http://ccsl.mae.cornell.edu/eureqa
[14:22:21] <kjetilho> neat
[14:23:45] <The_8472> very
[14:25:47] <DreadWingKnight> so The_8472, do you agree on my assessment of migi?
[14:26:19] <The_8472> no, the ablative armor usually went down pretty quick  ^^
[14:26:40] <The_8472> or rather, as fast as the plot required it
[14:27:52] * The_8472 fills a pool with honey and wades through it
[14:30:34] <mpl> well you'd have to take the shields down first. but somehow all shields alway go down in startrek eventually ;)
[14:33:04] <The_8472> well, i remember a TNG episode where they were facing a spaceship that wasn't as developed as the federation's tech. they charged their weapons and worf was suggesting to retaliate. i think picard remarked that their weapons were utterly harmless ^^
[14:33:27] <The_8472> some xray lasers or something
[14:33:42] <DreadWingKnight> regular laser
[14:33:48] <DreadWingKnight> not even full phaser capability
[14:33:56] <DreadWingKnight> couldn't penetrate the navigational shielding
[14:35:49] <The_8472> well, by current-day standards the navigational deflectors would be mind-boggingly powerful. They have to prevent hydrogen atoms smashing through the ship during FTL-travel after all. If they would fail at warp speed a ship would probably get converted to swiss cheese in nanoseconds
[14:37:03] <kjetilho> mixing physics into this is useless
[14:37:20] <kjetilho> any atom moving at FTL has infinite energy/mass
[14:37:48] <The_8472> actually, they would have imaginary mass
[14:37:59] <kjetilho> :-)
[14:38:10] <The_8472> but i didn't say the atoms would hit the ship at FTL speeds :P
[14:38:23] <The_8472> they're distorting spacetime after all
[14:38:34] <The_8472> to move the ships around
[14:39:00] <The_8472> they'd just hit it at ultrarelativistic speeds
[14:42:06] *** KyleK_ has quit IRC
[14:42:11] <DreadWingKnight> the science involved in the FTL travel that is used in star trek is a combination subspace/space folding thing
[14:42:18] <DreadWingKnight> causes all kinds of hilarity
[14:42:28] <DreadWingKnight> and gives current-era physicists headaches
[14:59:51] *** Switeck has quit IRC
[15:38:05] <mpl> The_8472: yeah I remember that one. silly worf ;)
[16:32:26] *** fireba11 has quit IRC
[16:35:41] <TheSHAD0W> http://spacetoys.com/proddetail.php?prod=RFS17
[16:36:14] <DeHackEd> wait, what?
[16:38:25] <TheSHAD0W> BEST - TOY - EVAR!
[16:51:35] *** Elrohir has joined #bittorrent
[16:57:28] <mpl> brilliant.
[17:00:11] *** ajaya has joined #bittorrent
[17:08:49] <K`Tetch> The_8472 - the enemies they were facing weere the lyserians
[17:09:41] <K`Tetch> lysians
[17:10:08] <K`Tetch> http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Lysian
[17:23:53] *** ajaya has quit IRC
[17:23:53] *** ivan` has quit IRC
[17:23:54] *** burris has quit IRC
[17:26:53] *** ivan` has joined #bittorrent
[17:36:36] *** ajaya has joined #bittorrent
[17:53:30] *** KyleK_ has joined #bittorrent
[17:56:27] *** KyleK__ has joined #bittorrent
[18:03:34] *** _rafi2_ has joined #bittorrent
[18:10:57] *** _rafi2_ is now known as _rafi_
[18:13:33] *** KyleK_ has quit IRC
[18:13:34] *** KyleK__ is now known as KyleK_
[18:33:45] *** L337hium has joined #bittorrent
[18:55:01] *** KyleK_ has quit IRC
[19:24:19] *** GTHK has joined #bittorrent
[19:55:30] *** L337hium has quit IRC
[21:03:12] *** bittwist has quit IRC
[21:33:19] *** burris has joined #bittorrent
[22:05:03] *** bittwist has joined #BitTorrent
[22:22:30] *** ajaya has quit IRC
[22:24:44] *** Res2216firestar has joined #bittorrent
[22:41:27] *** Res2216firestar has quit IRC
[22:52:15] *** Matson has left #bittorrent
[22:55:15] *** oberon has joined #bittorrent
[22:55:21] <oberon> hi
[22:55:42] <oberon> does bittorrent have supernodes or only clients and a tracker ?
[22:56:45] <DreadWingKnight> bittorrent's trackerless system isn't supernode based
[22:57:20] <DreadWingKnight> it's even more decentralized than that
[23:00:21] <oberon> you're talking about DHT
[23:00:32] <DreadWingKnight> yes
[23:00:33] <oberon> where each node is both client and server
[23:00:43] <DreadWingKnight> effectively, yes
[23:01:03] <oberon> suppose I wanna create a client that does statistics
[23:01:17] <DreadWingKnight> good luck
[23:01:27] <oberon> can I do that without downloading anything or racking up bandwidth usage ?
[23:02:17] <oberon> what is a tracker then ?
[23:02:38] <DreadWingKnight> there are two separate systems
[23:02:47] <DreadWingKnight> you can get statistics from trackers rather trivially
[23:02:51] <DreadWingKnight> for those kinds of torrents
[23:03:08] <DreadWingKnight> but DHT tends to be INSANELY difficult to get stats over
[23:03:37] <oberon> becoz I see only part of the nodes ?
[23:03:51] <DreadWingKnight> pretty much
[23:04:07] <DreadWingKnight> and the fact that the stats you'd be after are difficult to store in a DHT anyway
[23:06:43] <oberon> .. so I would have to query ALL the nodes time after time ..
[23:08:36] <DreadWingKnight> in order to have any hope of getting anywhere close, yes
[23:08:44] <DreadWingKnight> even then, there's no guarantees
[23:12:20] <oberon> do you know there is a C++ lib that implements both tracker and trackerless(DHF) ?
[23:13:36] <DreadWingKnight> probably is, I haven't looked into them myself
[23:41:38] <alus> oberon: DHT
[23:44:06] *** goussx has quit IRC
[23:44:24] *** goussx has joined #bittorrent
[23:57:03] *** L337hium has joined #bittorrent





top