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[05:07:18] <ChoyKloun> hey guys
[05:07:27] <ChoyKloun> been busy with the buy-out of my IT outsourcing company for the past days
[05:07:27] <ChoyKloun> fuck
[05:07:30] <ChoyKloun> meetings meetings meetings
[05:07:41] <ChoyKloun> accounting, spreadsheets, beancounting beancounters
[05:07:55] <ChoyKloun> papers to be signed and stamped
[05:08:05] <ChoyKloun> MOU and PoAs to be prepared
[05:08:23] <ChoyKloun> 4 different nationalities involved
[05:08:32] <ChoyKloun> and atleast 3 different cultural backgrounds
[05:08:41] <ChoyKloun> but it all went well
[05:08:47] <ChoyKloun> company was worth $0 6 months ago
[05:09:16] <ChoyKloun> after i helped fix what was wrong we now sold it for $160k and im so fucking happy and hopefully i have time for BT/DHT stuff now
[05:13:55] <ChoyKloun> for those of you who remembere my earlier discussions about using curve25519 for encryption/obfuscation/authentication/validation of DHT i can now tell you that i will be implementing it on a couple of hundred embedded systems unrelated to BT and with CPU power equal to a random DSL modem
[05:14:28] <ChoyKloun> so i'll have hard numbers frmom there regarding speed
[05:14:58] <ChoyKloun> and i can do some experiments before it goes live to see if they would handle similar loads to what DHT would face
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[05:28:29] <ChoyKloun> but i will keep any discussions in the channel and only post formal proposals in the forum
[05:28:40] <ChoyKloun> certain users make it totally impossible for me to discuss anything outside their tiny little box there
[05:29:59] <ChoyKloun> atleast without constant interruptions/trolling from them
[05:30:04] <ChoyKloun> oh well sorry for monologue. long nights work
[05:30:33] <Switeck> good luck
[05:32:33] <ChoyKloun> with all or N parts of my monologue? :)
[05:33:09] <Switeck> With coding BitTorrent behavior
[05:33:47] <Switeck> From my limited understanding, quite a bit of DHT behavior is not in the BEPs...
[05:33:52] <ChoyKloun> haha no shit
[05:34:02] <ChoyKloun> luckily i have done ad hoc networking shit before
[05:34:17] <ChoyKloun> but that has been more similar to freenet and/or mesh networks than dht
[05:34:27] <ChoyKloun> but dht has that beauty
[05:34:32] <ChoyKloun> sum greater than parts
[05:34:34] <Switeck> logging network traffic is the only way to begin to tackle it. That and running "working" DHT in another client.
[05:34:41] <ChoyKloun> ya
[05:34:48] <ChoyKloun> im doing all my testing using utorrent running in vmware
[05:34:51] <Switeck> DHT works great even if only about 25-50% of everyone is using it.
[05:35:21] <ChoyKloun> and i have a working dht implementation
[05:35:31] <ChoyKloun> but this implementation isnt anything anyone will actually be using
[05:35:46] <ChoyKloun> not for any of my proposed security improvements atleast
[05:36:01] <Switeck> I understand. Just working to get it where it doesn't seem to be "talking trash" to other DHT nodes...and vice versa XD
[05:36:09] <ChoyKloun> ya
[05:36:17] <ChoyKloun> currently it works fine when it comes to announcing
[05:36:21] <ChoyKloun> but it doesnt do effective routing
[05:36:42] <ChoyKloun> the internal data structures arent even optimal which im quite ashamed of since i have a data structure fetish
[05:36:54] <ChoyKloun> i cant sleep if my data structures arent O(1) or at the very least O(log n) \o o/
[05:43:35] <swolchok> I donm't follow the security case for obfuscating DHT protocol
[05:43:45] <swolchok> you're worried about ISPs actively interfering?
[05:44:03] <swolchok> I thought the general assumption was that they didn't have the resources/inclination to modify traffic
[05:44:14] <swolchok> at least not in a way that wasn't very heavy-handed
[05:44:31] <Switeck> actually, it's the opposite
[05:44:41] <Switeck> if they're short on resources, it's EASIER to be heavy-handed
[05:44:46] <swolchok> right
[05:44:50] <Switeck> than to carefully handle traffic
[05:44:51] <swolchok> e.g., by blocking it
[05:45:14] <swolchok> subtly tampering with the DHT is way more worrying than denial of service
[05:45:40] <Switeck> One common one is to throttle all "unknown" and "known-but-unwanted" traffic
[05:45:53] <swolchok> yep, I had to do that when I ran a small network
[05:46:00] <Switeck> Rogers Cable and Bell Canada do it
[05:46:05] <swolchok> didn't really have a choice; we couldn't support the load
[05:47:19] <ChoyKloun> there's equipment that can do this
[05:47:22] <swolchok> I don't think the DHT is nearly as bandwidth-intensive as actual torrents, and the complexity cost to every client that wasnts to support DHT is kind of high
[05:47:24] <ChoyKloun> on GE and 10GE links
[05:47:54] <ChoyKloun> i know the ppl who build these boxes
[05:47:57] <ChoyKloun> even offered a job there
[05:47:59] <ChoyKloun> twice i think heh
[05:48:07] <ChoyKloun> they could easily screw with dht
[05:48:09] <ChoyKloun> to conserve bandwidth
[05:48:17] <ChoyKloun> or cover their asses for the MAFIAA
[05:48:17] <swolchok> yeah but it's not worth the complexity cost
[05:48:20] <ChoyKloun> or to simply censor it
[05:48:23] <swolchok> either to them or to "us"
[05:48:30] <ChoyKloun> the single most commonly blocked site in china is tpb
[05:48:33] <swolchok> much more effective to suppress torrents
[05:48:55] <ChoyKloun> i want to try it and see how it works in real networking life
[05:49:16] <ChoyKloun> the client overhead is very small
[05:49:32] <swolchok> yes, but think of the developer cost
[05:49:35] <ChoyKloun> and if it eventually becomes mandated it also solves a lot of potential security issues with dht
[05:49:35] <swolchok> we have tens of clients
[05:49:41] <ChoyKloun> developer cost is minimal also
[05:49:45] <swolchok> no it's not
[05:49:45] <ChoyKloun> its easy to implement
[05:49:55] <ChoyKloun> can even provide a ready set of libraries
[05:49:55] <swolchok> clients are in diverse languages and by developers of diverse skill
[05:50:04] <swolchok> we don't have a ready set of libraries just for the DHT we have
[05:50:11] <ChoyKloun> ya thats true
[05:50:19] <ChoyKloun> otoh i do run an it outsourcing company
[05:50:38] <swolchok> the one advantage of mainline over Vuze DHT IMO is that it's simple and somewhat documented, so people can actually get it to work
[05:50:40] <ChoyKloun> i think i could sneak writing libs for a lot of languages into their work hehehe
[05:51:03] <swolchok> anyway, as long as this is at least a month from being a formal proposal I won't bother grilling you on it further
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[05:51:46] <swolchok> I have some stuff in the pipeline I'm hoping to at least mention publicly by january or so
[05:51:57] <Switeck> If you could document any part of DHT that's not already in BEPs, you've done a great service to all.
[05:52:21] <swolchok> there are multiple DHT BEPs? sigh
[05:52:50] <Switeck> DHT extensions I believe...I don't know how many are standard in any client though :(
[05:52:55] <swolchok> actually the nice thing about Kademlia is that it's OK for routing to be heterogeneous
[05:53:42] <swolchok> for reasonable implementations of the routing anyway. I'm not 100% on that, I just got swine flu vaccine 10 hours ago and I'm a bit out of it
[05:53:59] <ChoyKloun> DHT ya is deft 1 month from formal proposal
[05:54:19] <ChoyKloun> ive just discussed some loose ideas including this encryption shit
[05:54:30] <ChoyKloun> and found some potential securityi ssues in dht
[05:54:33] <ChoyKloun> its kinda mostly in my head
[05:54:53] <swolchok> there are LOTS of known security issues in Kademlia
[05:55:09] <swolchok> I can point you to a partial bibliography as soon as I verify it's actually made it into our paper
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[05:55:38] <swolchok> (the mainline DHT is a pretty naive Kademlia implementation, so most of the same old attacks should apply)
[05:55:49] <Switeck> At least uTorrent cannot even do DHT through a proxy (or maybe even a VPN).
[05:57:29] <swolchok> don't have bib handy, but here are some titles: "Exploiting KAD", "S/Kademlia: A Practicable Approach Towards Secure Key-Based Routing", "Attacking the Kad Network"
[05:58:11] <ChoyKloun> ya
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[05:58:27] <ChoyKloun> ive mostly dealt with the issue of using the network for DoS attack amplification and distribution
[05:58:56] <swolchok> there's lots of those papers too
[05:59:00] <swolchok> didn't really intersect with my work
[05:59:15] <ChoyKloun> since ive been on the receiving end of so many ddos attacks
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[05:59:41] <ChoyKloun> and if they had used the millions of dht clients just to distirbute and provide the smallest amount of possible amplification, i'd have had a 10x harder time doing it
[06:00:06] <Switeck> only botnets are likely to reach that number
[06:00:17] <swolchok> yeah I would assume it's well-known that any hole that lets you inject a node into the DHT routing table will do it
[06:00:41] <swolchok> ditto any hole that lets you inject into torrents' peer lists
[06:00:59] <swolchok> the question is whether the amplification is worth the cost and engineering effort
[06:01:30] <ChoyKloun> yes, it is
[06:01:37] <ChoyKloun> its not so much the amp factor
[06:01:44] <ChoyKloun> atleast not with the simplest attack
[06:01:47] <ChoyKloun> its the geographical distribution
[06:01:54] <ChoyKloun> and possibility for geographical selectivity
[06:02:21] <ChoyKloun> its not entirely straightforward to explain unless youre familiar with global bgp routing and the finer points of defending against large ddos attacks
[06:02:50] <ChoyKloun> but if the largest attacks had used dht properly our asses would've been fried
[06:03:14] <Switeck> isn't about the only defense is to get your upstream provider to help out too...black-holing the DDoS sources?
[06:03:17] <ChoyKloun> instead of spending several days at a time laughing at incoming multi-gigabit attacks and the fact that the target webserver is loaded just as quick as usual
[06:03:25] <ChoyKloun> you cant blachole based on source
[06:03:34] <ChoyKloun> especially not if there are thousands (or millions!) of them
[06:03:38] <Switeck> true
[06:03:44] <ChoyKloun> sometimes you can stop announcing the network to certain providers
[06:03:46] <swolchok> so in other words, DHT just makes it slightly easier to get a botnet
[06:03:47] <Switeck> then maybe by type of traffic
[06:03:55] <swolchok> as though it weren't easy enough already
[06:04:02] <ChoyKloun> for example if a server is only used from europe you can announce it just to europe
[06:04:15] <ChoyKloun> commonly done with IRC servers
[06:04:19] <ChoyKloun> (we host en efnet server)
[06:04:29] <ChoyKloun> swolchok: no, it makes a small botnet a lot more powerful
[06:04:39] <ChoyKloun> and it provides you with a level of geographical distribution your botnet isnt likely to have
[06:04:52] <ChoyKloun> even if you're mr botnet pimp
[06:05:03] <swolchok> hmm
[06:05:05] <ChoyKloun> i mean it freely hands you the addrs of potentially millions of nodes
[06:05:08] <ChoyKloun> all happy to help
[06:05:13] <Switeck> heh
[06:05:13] <swolchok> I have a DoS w/DHT method that requires a botnet as well
[06:05:43] <ChoyKloun> and if you hook it up with routing info you can target exactly the weakest spots in the netwrok
[06:05:46] <swolchok> only in idea form, haven't tested because I assumed it wasn't practical
[06:05:52] <ChoyKloun> or totally anniliate defenses like selective announcing
[06:05:57] <ChoyKloun> and i mean
[06:06:02] <ChoyKloun> lets say you have 1-2 boxes
[06:06:02] <swolchok> more practically, I have already publicly disclosed that I have a network enumerator for the Vuze DHT
[06:06:09] <swolchok> you don't need a botnet to figure out who is in it
[06:06:15] <ChoyKloun> can put out 1Gbps of UDP
[06:06:20] <ChoyKloun> not unrealistic at all
[06:06:23] <ChoyKloun> i could do it at any time
[06:06:42] <ChoyKloun> with DHT and the simplest attack this turns into almost 3Gbps with any geographical distribution you want
[06:06:48] <Switeck> would they need (or at least helped y) a broad ip range
[06:07:16] <ChoyKloun> which while not being huge, is difficult to deal with unless you have proper resources
[06:07:28] <ChoyKloun> and with the routing targeting
[06:07:38] <ChoyKloun> well you could target the weakest and most congested links
[06:07:46] <ChoyKloun> cause the prefix to flap and get it damped in most global core routers
[06:07:52] <Switeck> you assuming they have a /24 IPv4? or /64 IPv6?
[06:07:57] <ChoyKloun> there goes all your traffic for hours on an end
[06:08:14] <ChoyKloun> for the attack source im assuming they have a few boxes that can spoof all 32 bits of the address
[06:08:32] <ChoyKloun> for DHT node collection well... someone better experienced with DHT please tell me whats required
[06:09:09] <ChoyKloun> i just know that without even breaking protocol in any way i start my dht client and within a few minutes it knows 20k or so nodes
[06:09:19] <Switeck> so they don't even need a big ip range, they'll just spoof ip addresses?
[06:09:21] <ChoyKloun> certainly that could be 200k with a minor effort
[06:09:22] <ChoyKloun> yes
[06:09:33] <ChoyKloun> to spoof ip addr of the attack target
[06:09:33] <swolchok> you can probably collect a list of the majority of nodes in mainline DHT without too much trouble
[06:09:38] <ChoyKloun> exactly
[06:09:45] <Switeck> ah the advantage of UDP being connectionless!
[06:09:47] <ChoyKloun> exactly the worst possible scenario i mean
[06:09:50] <swolchok> given that I can do it for Vuze DHT and there are several papers already on doing it in kademlia
[06:10:09] <ChoyKloun> disadvantage of DHT not being designed with evil fucks in mind
[06:10:24] <ChoyKloun> i really like DHT as a concept but there are some unresolved issues
[06:10:27] <swolchok> I don't see how protocol obfuscation is going to address this in any way
[06:10:41] <ChoyKloun> but the logic itself is pure beauty
[06:10:48] <ChoyKloun> swolchok: its a side effect of it
[06:10:56] <ChoyKloun> it provides you with a sort of "connection" handling
[06:11:04] <ChoyKloun> since obviously if you exchange keys with someone you know they are there
[06:11:13] <ChoyKloun> and you design the protocol so the first response is never bigger than the first query
[06:11:25] <swolchok> there are probably better ways to implement that
[06:11:28] <ChoyKloun> you could even hack that into mainline dht without doing any encryption shit
[06:11:32] <ChoyKloun> yes
[06:11:34] <ChoyKloun> its just a side effect
[06:11:44] <ChoyKloun> not the intended purpose
[06:12:34] <ChoyKloun> but discussions about this in the thread on the forum hasnt lead anywhere
[06:13:08] <ChoyKloun> it usually goes like this "its just 2.8x amplification" "you are a stupid scare mongerer who doesnt know jack shit about computer security"
[06:13:12] <ChoyKloun> etc
[06:13:14] <Switeck> security as an afterthought always leaves holes
[06:18:36] <swolchok> I'm a little skeptical that it's a huge concern among the average software designer to make sure that a program will never send a reply to an unsolicited message that is longer than the message
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[06:19:39] <swolchok> if I understand correctly that's the fundamental problem here: program X sends replies that are longer than requests to unsolicited requests. If you can find hosts that are running X, you can use X to amplify a DDoS
[06:21:01] <swolchok> why is this worse than DNS amplification (I'm not extremely familiar with DNS amplification)?
[06:27:23] <ChoyKloun> because
[06:27:41] <ChoyKloun> 1. DHTs whole purpose is to provide you with IP addrs of nodes, after all..
[06:28:09] <ChoyKloun> and related to this is 2. DHT provides you with any distribution you want geographically/routing wise
[06:28:30] <ChoyKloun> DHT amplification using basic attacks (we do have some vague ideas about reaching higher ratios though) are SHIT compared to a properly done dns attack
[06:28:35] <ChoyKloun> actual amp ratio isnt the point here
[06:29:03] <ChoyKloun> and well
[06:29:10] <ChoyKloun> a lot of things arent a concern to the average software developer
[06:29:13] <ChoyKloun> or protocol developer
[06:29:50] <ChoyKloun> thats one of the reasons why ive had to phone upstreams and upstreams upstreams in the middle of the night and writing my own kernel patches and lit goes on and on etc to defend against dos attacks of varous kinds
[06:30:51] <swolchok> well, the whole purpose of DNS is to provide you with IP addresses as well
[06:30:57] <swolchok> and aren't DNS servers located everywhere?
[06:31:14] <swolchok> the problem isn't exactly endemic to the bittorrent DHT, so fixing it won't end DoS amplification
[06:55:31] <ChoyKloun> well you need open resolvers
[06:55:36] <ChoyKloun> and you need them to perform well
[06:55:40] <ChoyKloun> and you need to do certain preparations
[06:55:44] <ChoyKloun> no
[06:55:53] <ChoyKloun> but its about preventing it BEFORE it becomes endemic
[06:55:59] <ChoyKloun> because the consequences are potentially servers
[06:56:02] <ChoyKloun> SEVERE
[06:56:04] <ChoyKloun> sorry
[06:56:54] <Switeck> yep, once the problems grow into servers...we're all screwed XD
[06:58:22] <swolchok> endemic was a bad word choice. I meant "limited"
[06:58:36] <swolchok> it's not like the BT DHT is the sole or the best source of DoS amplification in the world
[06:58:50] <swolchok> or even the easiest
[07:01:01] <Switeck> But to BT, it seems the one likely to do the most damage
[07:01:32] <swolchok> it's not going to damage BT peers
[07:01:45] <swolchok> it's going to damage websites
[07:02:01] <swolchok> I mean sure you could get some bad press in NYT about it on a slow news day
[07:07:35] <Switeck> Nah, this is BitTorrent...bad press is free
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[07:21:05] <ChoyKloun> the thing is
[07:21:11] <ChoyKloun> if people started using this for ddos attac
[07:21:15] <ChoyKloun> MAFIAA would cream their pants
[07:21:21] <ChoyKloun> because then they would start lobbiny for isps to block dht
[07:21:24] <ChoyKloun> etc
[07:21:25] <ChoyKloun> oh well
[07:21:31] <ChoyKloun> have to get showere and get to wor
[07:21:31] <ChoyKloun> k
[07:21:37] <ChoyKloun> despite this being a national holiday
[07:21:42] <ChoyKloun> human rights day, huh
[07:22:03] <ChoyKloun> what about celebrating the human right to gainful employment as enscribed in the UN universal declaration of human rights
[07:22:10] <ChoyKloun> by WORKING YOUR ASS OFF FOR THE DAY
[07:22:12] <ChoyKloun> :P
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[16:27:58] * TheSHAD0W just had another evil idea
[16:28:24] <TheSHAD0W> Ohh, I'm such a bad person.
[16:28:33] <Switeck> lazy evil or take over the world evil?
[16:28:44] <TheSHAD0W> It wouldn't take over the world...
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[16:41:31] <ChoyKloun> hay guys
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[17:10:38] * Miller` reads conversation from 10 hrs ago about DHT
[17:10:48] <Miller`> are most implementations of it really that insecure?
[17:11:34] <Miller`> you can just at-will add any random host to the network and get them spammed with connection attempts?
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[17:27:34] <ChoyKloun> its not that simple
[17:27:43] <ChoyKloun> and its a protocol issue, not an implementation issue
[17:28:06] <ChoyKloun> and you need to know what you are doing
[17:28:19] <ChoyKloun> (or someone who needs to know what they are doing needs to have provided a ./tool for you to do it...)
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[17:35:29] <Miller`> so doing it on the mainline client vs vuze would be the same?
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[20:12:03] <burris> you can't sign up other peers to torrents but you can forge packets from your victim to many nodes in the DHT and the responses will go to your victim from a geographically diverse set of hosts and also with some amplification
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