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[00:08:07] <Res2216firestar> Hi, I just got a new firewall (ghostwall) and I think I have it set up properly for bittorrent, everything seems to be working fine, but it's blocking a lot of udp packets on port 46837. Does this have anything to do with bittorrent?
[00:08:38] <Switeck> what is your listening port?
[00:08:52] <Res2216firestar> 45065
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[00:09:33] <Switeck> BitTorrent shouldn't be using udp packets on port 46837...but it does use udp packets for DHT, Resolve IPs, Teredo/IPv6, and uTP peers/seeds.
[00:10:46] <Switeck> can you tell if the packets are incoming or outgoing?
[00:10:55] <Res2216firestar> they are all incoming
[00:11:14] <Switeck> same i p source?
[00:11:45] <Res2216firestar> a bunch of different ones
[00:12:07] <Switeck> any in the 38.x.x.x ip range?
[00:12:25] <Res2216firestar> no
[00:12:30] <Switeck> good XD
[00:12:59] <Res2216firestar> I might just unblock it for awhile and see what happens
[00:13:17] <Switeck> Does the activity seem related to BitTorrent? (starting and stopping when BitTorrent is?)
[00:14:17] <Res2216firestar> it slows down a bit when I close utorrent
[00:14:18] <Switeck> TCP View might show what they're trying to connect to...
[00:14:46] <Switeck> DHT is enabled?
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[00:14:59] <Switeck> Local Peer Discovery enabled?
[00:15:08] <Res2216firestar> yes
[00:15:30] <Switeck> It could be DHT...
[00:15:35] <Res2216firestar> I think it might be utp...with the exception I get a lot more utp peers
[00:15:37] <Switeck> but I don't know why it'd use that port
[00:15:54] <Switeck> uTP should be using regular outgoing ports just like regular peers/seeds do
[00:16:01] <Switeck> same with incoming
[00:16:23] <Switeck> Teredo/IPv6 active?
[00:16:54] <Res2216firestar> yes
[00:17:46] <Switeck> I'm not sure what port Teredo would use...
[00:18:13] <Switeck> ...since it's so much like a VPN
[00:20:19] <klapaucjusz> Teredo uses any available port for data traffic.
[00:20:28] <klapaucjusz> Res2216firestar: could you show us a sample packet?
[00:20:34] <klapaucjusz> If you have tcpdump, try running
[00:21:25] <Res2216firestar> hold on
[00:21:33] <klapaucjusz> tcpdump -n -s 1500 -X -i eth0 port 46837
[00:21:39] <klapaucjusz> and show us a sample.
[00:21:43] <klapaucjusz> Er, you're on WIndows?
[00:22:09] <Res2216firestar> yes
[00:22:52] <Switeck> Have you noticed uTorrent listening on port 10000 for its new phone home features?
[00:23:44] <klapaucjusz> I don't know what's the Windows equivalent of tcpdump.
[00:24:07] <klapaucjusz> There's apparently something called windump.
[00:24:16] <Switeck> or wireshark :(
[00:24:25] <klapaucjusz> You'll need to find out the right thing to put in -i.
[00:24:34] <klapaucjusz> Oh, wireshark is available for legacy platforms?
[00:24:47] <klapaucjusz> Res2216firestar: please grab a copy of wireshark and show us a sample packet.
[00:24:52] <Res2216firestar> ok
[00:26:16] <Res2216firestar> about 2 minutes on the download, I live far away from any fast connections...
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[00:31:16] <Switeck> Lots of web servers won't give you large files faster than 50-100 KB/sec even if you're on a fast line. :(
[00:31:26] <Switeck> (It's partly why BitTorrent even exists!)
[00:32:44] <Res2216firestar> I'm a bit new to this: what part of the packet do I need?
[00:34:23] <Res2216firestar> 37	1.647304	97.115.224.145	74.196.98.35	UDP	Source port: 10789  Destination port: 45065
[00:34:29] <klapaucjusz> Don't!
[00:34:43] <klapaucjusz> pastebin is your friend.
[00:34:59] <klapaucjusz> The best thing -- create a capture file, put it somewhere on the web, and let us work it out.
[00:35:04] <Res2216firestar> ok
[00:35:30] <klapaucjusz> Beware, you'll be giving out a lot of personal information by doing that.  It might be okay, if it's not, we'll find another way.
[00:35:54] <Switeck> I edit my logs by replacing my ip with x.x.x.x XD
[00:36:07] <klapaucjusz> Yeah, but you don't want to be editing a pcap  capture file.
[00:38:37] <Res2216firestar> hold on, uploading
[00:40:05] <Res2216firestar> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/2920669/udp%20packet.pcap
[00:40:27] <Res2216firestar> I limited it to one of those packets, let me know if you need all packets
[00:41:13] <klapaucjusz> It's a DHT packet.
[00:41:16] <klapaucjusz> Nothing to worry abou.t
[00:41:35] <Res2216firestar> ok, thanks :)
[00:42:03] <klapaucjusz> What did you say the ports are?
[00:42:12] 
[00:42:28] <Res2216firestar> 45065
[00:43:00] <Res2216firestar> It's the latest 2.0 beta, if that helps
[00:43:13] <klapaucjusz> Well, the UDP packet is being sent to port 45065, as expected
[00:43:21] <klapaucjusz> Didn't you mention you were seeing weird port numbers?
[00:44:10] <Res2216firestar> wait, hold on
[00:45:16] <Res2216firestar> I chose the wrong packet, sorry, here's the right one (one sec)
[00:46:24] <Res2216firestar> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/2920669/other%20udp%20packet.pcap
[00:48:03] <klapaucjusz> That's still a DHT packet.
[00:48:28] <klapaucjusz> Weird.  Have you been running on a different port recently?
[00:48:37] 
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[00:49:28] <Res2216firestar> I have one instance running, and I haven't changed my port lately
[00:49:56] <klapaucjusz> Sorry, that's all the information I can give you from what you've shown.
[00:50:03] <Res2216firestar> ok, that's fine
[00:50:24] <Res2216firestar> as long as the packets are safe, that's about all I care about :)
[00:50:24] <Switeck> Do you have TCP View?
[00:50:30] <klapaucjusz> I could find out which torrent the second instance is downloading, but I need your permission to do so.
[00:50:32] <Switeck> (from same place that makes Process Explorer)
[00:51:02] <klapaucjusz> Er, no, actually  I cannot.
[00:51:42] <Res2216firestar> Switeck, I can get it, hold on
[00:52:07] <Switeck> TCP View can be set to "paused" mode and then just use F5 (refresh) or click on refresh icon for snapshots
[00:52:25] <Switeck> it will also show what program (it thinks) is tied into each active port
[00:52:50] <Switeck> I usually disable resolve ips in it, out of simplicity
[00:53:50] <Switeck> I've heard of software firewalls showing every connection to the internet twice in TCP View -- once to the firewall, then again out to the internet (The firewall acts like a mini VPN)
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[00:54:08] <Res2216firestar> it keeps crashing before I can pause it >_<
[00:54:18] <Switeck> O.O
[00:54:37] <Switeck> What windows verion?
[00:54:44] <Res2216firestar> xp
[00:54:48] <Switeck> odd
[00:55:08] <Res2216firestar> now I paused it, but it crashed anyway, could it be my slow processer?
[00:55:15] <Switeck> I've had udp crash it before, but usually only during a DDoS attack or something...
[00:55:21] <Switeck> no
[00:55:22] <The_8472> tcp view crashes? i would blame the firewall ^^
[00:55:37] <Switeck> bad network driver or software firewall possibly?
[00:55:47] * Res2216firestar tries the firewall
[01:10:04] <Res2216firestar> yes, the udp packets are going to utorrent
[01:10:42] <Res2216firestar> sorry, took awhile to figure out, still can't get tcpview to work, but the firewall gives me the PIDs
[01:11:09] <The_8472> instead of tcpview you could just use netstat -anl
[01:11:52] <The_8472> i mean netstat -an
[01:13:48] <klapaucjusz> Are you positive both destination ports are for the same process?
[01:14:00] 
[01:15:19] <Switeck> LSP screwed up on your computer Res?
[01:15:31] <Switeck> That's another thing that'll utterly kill TCP View.
[01:16:56] <Res2216firestar> weird
[01:17:20] <Res2216firestar> when I look at the logs for the configured port, they're going to loads of different PIDs
[01:17:27] <Res2216firestar> even ones that don't exist
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[01:21:10] <Res2216firestar> I'll deal with it later if you guys don't mind :)
[01:22:37] <Switeck> ok
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[01:30:23] <Res2216firestar> well, couldn't resist the dr watson log for tcpview: http://res2216firestar.pastebin.com/m30b2fccc
[01:31:19] <Switeck> access violation?!
[01:31:28] <Switeck> like it doesn't have permission?!
[01:32:45] <Res2216firestar> yes, thought so, it works now
[01:33:09] <Res2216firestar> with utorrent closed it works
[01:33:55] <Res2216firestar> which defeats the point of trying to use it :S
[01:34:34] <Switeck> does it crash when uTorrent loads?
[01:34:51] <Res2216firestar> it freezes and won't show the gui
[01:35:21] <Res2216firestar> I think it might be trying to grab up way too much memory to show all those connections or something
[01:39:11] <Switeck> I've had it display ~500 connections just fine on my XP Pro box.
[01:41:03] <The_8472> netstat -anb can get you the same information as tcpview
[01:41:37] <Switeck> pretty much
[01:42:11] <Switeck> TCP View just lets you kill connections *OR* programs making the connections.
[01:42:17] <The_8472> netstat -anbo actually, if you want the process ID
[01:42:43] <The_8472> well, killing programs i can can do with process explorer/taskman
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[02:14:40] <TheSHAD0W> http://superstore.wnd.com/store/item.asp?ITEM_ID=3457
[02:19:41] <Switeck> Sunspot variations, ice ages (one of which we may be coming out of without human "help"...), El Nino/La Nita -- yeah, I believe in Climate change as well.
[02:20:52] <DreadWingKnight> I believe it's coming on its own and human activity only affects wether I'll see it or not
[02:24:48] <TheSHAD0W> In other news...
[02:25:01] <TheSHAD0W> Last Monday Obama hosted a meeting on government openness.
[02:25:06] <TheSHAD0W> ...It was closed to the public.
[02:27:04] <Switeck> Our president...different face...still a jackass
[02:32:58] <The_8472> :roll: what's with you people rather believing industry propaganda than sciencentific consensus.
[02:33:23] <TheSHAD0W> Um.
[02:33:36] <The_8472> *scientific
[02:33:43] <TheSHAD0W> For a "scientific consensus" it's rather un-consensus-y.
[02:33:57] <TheSHAD0W> There's a big list of scientists who "agree" with the consensus...
[02:33:59] <The_8472> no, it isn't
[02:34:12] <TheSHAD0W> And lots of scientists who claim their names were used without their permission.
[02:34:18] <kjetilho> The_8472: I wonder which side has more emotional propaganda...
[02:34:22] <The_8472> there are always dissenters, but that's true for any field of science
[02:35:32] <kjetilho> the destruction of data not matching the party line by researchers in East Anglia fits in quite well with the selective usage of data for the Hockey stick theory
[02:35:35] <Switeck> 8472, I believe the low to middle estimates for man-assisted parts of global warming
[02:35:36] <kjetilho> http://www.financialpost.com/opinion/story.html?id=2056988&p=1
[02:36:04] <Switeck> but their far-reaching effects, I am not sure...
[02:36:04] <The_8472> financial ... yeah, ty for proving my point
[02:36:16] <The_8472> Switeck, of course. people lack long-term thinking.
[02:36:29] <Switeck> people lack long-term consequences in this case too
[02:36:54] <Switeck> meaning long-term consequences are varying degrees of probabilities
[02:37:01] <Switeck> but very few absolutes
[02:37:06] <kjetilho> I worry a lot more about freshwater depletion and deforestation
[02:37:31] <The_8472> which are related to global warming.
[02:37:39] <Switeck> I worry too much emphasis is placed on CO2 emissions instead of worse forms of pollution, even to the point of displacing funds for those tasks
[02:37:54] <The_8472> desertification, retreating permanently snow-covered areas and all
[02:38:28] <kjetilho> The_8472: there has been no desertification the last decade, quite the opposite in fact
[02:38:34] <Switeck> desertification can be *EXTREME* in ice ages
[02:39:07] <The_8472> funds? uhm... the thing is, there are still very few funds spent on combating these issues. compare the US military budget with the budget for ecological measures. I would say preserving our ecosphere is more important than preserving military dominance. we only have one ecosystem and all that
[02:39:15] <Switeck> Sahara desert is expanding in many areas, due to overgrazing and sand dunes moving
[02:39:25] <Switeck> 8472, I mean from industry point of view
[02:39:44] <kjetilho> Switeck: yes, but overall Sahara is shrinking
[02:39:53] <The_8472> the industry has no incentives to do anything because ecological damages are externalties to them.
[02:40:16] <The_8472> they don't have to pay the costs and damages that might occur several decades in the future
[02:40:18] <Switeck> They operate on a fixed budget...and decreasing pollution is more forced-at-gunpoint than free will.
[02:40:40] <Switeck> actually, they do have to pay for bad practices...sometimes even immediately. Just never in full
[02:40:57] <The_8472> not only a fixed budget but also on a quarterly result basis. damages that will only catch up with them in decades simply are not accounted for.
[02:41:44] <Switeck> When airlines figure wrongful death suits cost less than massively improving safety...what can we do?
[02:41:45] <The_8472> they don't pay for the CO2, methane, algae blooms, ocean acidification for example.
[02:42:03] <Switeck> red tides are a big problem where I am
[02:42:05] <The_8472> prevent them from externalizing costs
[02:42:13] <Switeck> almost certainly triggered by other pollutants
[02:42:24] <The_8472> yes, fertilizers
[02:42:32] <The_8472> still an industrial issue
[02:42:37] <Switeck> farm an industrial runoffs
[02:42:48] <The_8472> farming is an industry in my eyes
[02:42:57] <Switeck> practically destroys fishing in an area for 1-5 years.
[02:43:20] <Switeck> even at best, 1 fishing "season" is removed
[02:44:24] <TheSHAD0W> So, harvest it.
[02:44:34] <The_8472> consider the extinction of some species X (e.g. due to deforestation of the rainforests, overfishing, changing climate) that might have helped us to discover the cure for disease Y. Nobody is held responsible for the damages (or rather, the lost potential) this causes
[02:44:47] <Switeck> it's microscopic and covers many square miles
[02:44:56] <Switeck> it is nearly impossible to harvest
[02:45:15] <TheSHAD0W> Whales do it all the time.  We should be able to figure out how.
[02:45:22] <Switeck> whales don't
[02:45:32] <Switeck> this isn't algae, this is much smaller
[02:45:33] <The_8472> whales eat shrimp, they're macroscopic
[02:45:42] <The_8472> we're talking about single-cell algae
[02:45:47] <TheSHAD0W> Mmm.
[02:45:50] <TheSHAD0W> Yeah, sorry.
[02:45:59] <TheSHAD0W> No, it is algae.  Whales eat plankton.
[02:46:08] <The_8472> oO which ones?
[02:46:10] <Switeck> actually, red tide is something smaller than typical green algae
[02:46:11] <TheSHAD0W> We still should be able to figure something out.
[02:46:28] <Switeck> baleen whales
[02:46:28] <TheSHAD0W> Interesting.
[02:47:15] <The_8472> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krill <- certainly not a single-cell organism
[02:47:27] <The_8472> that's what the blue whales eat
[02:49:19] <The_8472> instead of trying to cure the symptoms... how about going for the cause?
[02:51:24] <kjetilho> The_8472: bah.  that's backward thinking
[02:51:31] <The_8472> huh?
[02:51:36] <Switeck> "some sources say Florida red tide blooms are about 10- to 15-fold more abundant than they were 50 years ago."  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karenia_brevis
[02:51:44] <The_8472> that's the most efficient approach if effects multiply
[02:51:56] <kjetilho> why bother trying to increase yields, why not go for the cause?
[02:52:07] <kjetilho> not going to cut it
[02:52:18] <The_8472> huh?
[02:53:16] <The_8472> the issues are farming runoffs. overuse of fertilizers and dung (they even dispose dung onto fields during winter time, when it's absolutely useless) has NOTHING to do with yields
[02:54:13] <Switeck> "When temperature, salinity, and nutrients reach certain levels, a massive increase in Karenia brevis algae occurs. No one knows the exact combination of factors that causes red tide, but some experts believe high temperatures combined with a lack of wind and rainfall are usually at the root of red tide blooms."
[02:55:14] <The_8472> translation: nutrients = fertilizer, high temperature = climate
[02:55:18] <Switeck> Many parts of southern USA sees crops grown year round.
[02:56:29] <Switeck> Anything that's semi-resistant to frost and doesn't mind limited daylight hours grows just fine...with enough fertilizer and dung.
[02:57:17] <The_8472> well, in the south maybe. but here fields are snow-covered during the winter
[02:57:27] <The_8472> and i've seen them pouring dung onto snow-covered fields
[02:57:31] <The_8472> simply to empty the silos
[02:57:53] <Switeck> If I 'spin the globe', my location north of the equator maps out around Alexandria,  Egypt.
[02:58:02] <Switeck> It doesn't snow much here either
[02:58:13] <kjetilho> The_8472: wow.  that's a criminal offence here in Norway
[02:58:24] <The_8472> kjetilho, i agree it should be.
[02:59:14] <TheSHAD0W> Well, sounds like the best thing to do is have a fundraiser to build more silos.  :-P
[02:59:48] <The_8472> or force them to process the dung in some way, which will (hopefully) raise meat prices and lower consumption
[03:00:16] <The_8472> pigs have like a 10:1 conversion ratio of what you feed them to the meat you get out (in kalories)
[03:00:37] <Switeck> cattle are probably worse
[03:00:59] <The_8472> cattle produces more methane too...
[03:02:27] <The_8472> if everyone were a vegetarian (hypothetically speaking) we could probably use 1 order of magnitude less of farming area
[03:02:39] <The_8472> oh, and pets are also an issue, since they mostly eat meat too
[03:02:56] <Switeck> Johnathan Swift's a modest proposal...
[03:04:14] <The_8472> well, i'm only making an argument for reduced meat consumption, not for vegetarianism
[03:04:34] <The_8472> if you compare the amount of meat consumed in western countries and in, e.g., india you might see my point
[03:04:44] <TheSHAD0W> Heh.
[03:04:52] <TheSHAD0W> You know, I recently put up a new blog...
[03:04:57] <TheSHAD0W> http://unvegan.org
[03:05:14] <The_8472> hah
[03:06:44] <Switeck> if everyone tried to get down to ~125% of their recommended (by doctors) weight in the developed world (ESP USA!), that'd probably be enough.
[03:06:56] <TheSHAD0W> So...
[03:07:07] <TheSHAD0W> What is a dish that has some meat content, but a lot of veggies?
[03:07:14] <TheSHAD0W> I guess my next post should be chef salad.
[03:07:15] <The_8472> i for one consume about 300-500g of meat per week.
[03:07:27] <The_8472> yes, per week
[03:07:36] * TheSHAD0W does that per day
[03:08:09] <The_8472> TheSHAD0W a "balanced meal"
[03:08:21] <TheSHAD0W> Yup.
[03:08:28] <TheSHAD0W> I balance the steak and poultry.
[03:08:34] <TheSHAD0W> Half and half.
[03:08:43] <The_8472> .... :rolls:
[03:08:49] <TheSHAD0W> ;-)
[03:11:21] <Switeck> there's lots of people who think potatoes should be their main vegetable.
[03:11:42] <Switeck> or who fill up on processed grains.
[03:11:57] <TheSHAD0W> I like Chinese salads.
[03:12:01] <TheSHAD0W> (Egg rolls.)
[03:13:39] <Switeck> egg rolls are often so heavy on batter that I wonder just how healthy they are...
[03:13:47] <TheSHAD0W> LOL
[03:24:46] * TheSHAD0W publishes a "chef salad" article
[03:27:10] <The_8472> they sell that stuff packaged and cooled in transparent plastic containers here
[03:27:16] <The_8472> including packaged sauce
[03:27:24] <The_8472> i mean salad with some meat strips in it
[03:28:26] <TheSHAD0W> That counts as chef's salad, though it's a poor example.
[03:32:05] <TheSHAD0W> My next article will be - Ramen!
[03:39:35] <TheSHAD0W> http://thereifixedit.com/2009/12/05/honey-when-i-said-trim-to-make-it-fit-i-meant-the-tree/
[03:39:49] <swolchok> you should publish an article on how to survive on pizza and burritos
[03:39:59] <TheSHAD0W> Mmm...
[03:40:04] <TheSHAD0W> Pizza is relatively low meat.
[03:40:09] <TheSHAD0W> Burritos, well, maybe.
[03:40:25] <swolchok> meat? who cares about meat
[03:40:29] <TheSHAD0W> The topic of the blog is yummy food that has some, but not a lot of meat.
[03:40:56] <swolchok> missed that critical piece of context
[03:41:02] <The_8472> meat slurry mixed with starch syrup!
[03:41:10] <TheSHAD0W> Ooo...
[03:41:40] <The_8472> allows you to blend from 100% meat to 100% vegan at any ratio
[03:41:42] <TheSHAD0W> http://www.unvegan.org/2009/12/meat-slurry-mixed-with-starch-syrup-im.html
[03:41:50] <The_8472> and is completely unhealthy at any ratio
[03:42:07] <The_8472> lol
[03:42:11] <swolchok> um, stir-fry?
[03:42:24] <swolchok> can go from 0% meat to 50-75% meat
[03:42:29] <TheSHAD0W> Nice.
[03:42:32] <swolchok> completely delicious at any ratio
[03:42:37] * TheSHAD0W writes down all the suggestions
[03:42:47] <swolchok> I used to subsist on stir-fry before I got tired of doing dishes
[03:43:10] <swolchok> it's great because even if you run out of food you can just cook two onions and an egg and rice and claim that it has "vegetables"
[03:43:46] <Switeck> I was diagnosed with severe gluten intolerance, so my diet has become different than most.
[03:43:49] <swolchok> oh yes, and eggs let you optionally add delicious cholesterol
[03:44:01] <TheSHAD0W> Heh.
[03:44:17] <TheSHAD0W> Switeck: Have you heard John Pinette talk about gluten-free bread?
[03:44:19] <Switeck> I eat lots of scrambled eggs
[03:44:22] <swolchok> if you need more meat, prepare a side of bacon and fry with the bacon fat.
[03:44:26] <TheSHAD0W> "I don't know what gluten is, but it's delicious!"
[03:44:30] <Switeck> I have quite a few bread-like substances
[03:44:52] <Switeck> gluten found in wheat, oats, barley
[03:45:03] <TheSHAD0W> Yes, I do know what gluten is.
[03:45:11] <swolchok> The_8472: starch can be formed into a syrup?
[03:45:17] <The_8472> yes
[03:45:17] <swolchok> I thought syrup implied sugar
[03:45:20] <Switeck> (that's for benefit of everyone here in response to your joke)
[03:45:38] <The_8472> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corn_syrup
[03:45:38] <Switeck> rice syrup for instance...
[03:45:49] <TheSHAD0W> Aggh.
[03:45:54] <TheSHAD0W> Now I'm hungry.  X_X
[03:46:03] <swolchok> the syrup no longer contains starch at that point though
[03:46:11] <swolchok> it's been broken down into its component sugars
[03:46:13] <The_8472> it's made from starch
[03:46:28] <The_8472> just like baby oil does not contain whole babies anymore
[03:46:31] <swolchok> by that argument, we should rename cows to "grass meat"
[03:46:53] <The_8472> rice whine (aka sake) doesn't contain rice anymore either...
[03:47:04] <swolchok> oh, I gotcha
[03:47:19] <swolchok> totally legit, I just hadn't heard the term before
[03:47:26] <[1]remy> The debug code generated in 2010 beta 2 EE feels slower than 2008 EE
[03:47:34] <The_8472> oO
[03:47:46] <swolchok> that sentence no context
[03:48:22] <The_8472> you accidentally a verb
[03:48:58] <[1]remy> The code from 2008
[03:49:05] <Switeck> 2008 of what?
[03:49:37] <The_8472> i guess any code of any software written anytime in the year 2008?
[03:49:38] <[1]remy> The debug code generated in Visaul 2010 beta 2 EE feels slower than the debug code generated by Visual Studio 2008 EE
[03:49:52] <The_8472> ah, now we're talking
[03:49:57] <[1]remy> EE for Express Edition
[03:50:02] <The_8472> and what do you mean by "feels".. did you do any benchmarks?
[03:50:30] <[1]remy> nope, this is 100% subjective "feels"
[03:51:12] <[1]remy> I'm not actually claiming it is.  In fact, based on what I've read it should be quicker.  But it feels slower right now :/
[03:51:53] <The_8472> well, if something feels wrong that's fine in itself. but you have to follow up with facts to verify it
[03:52:01] <[1]remy> 2010 beta also doesn't feel as polished as the 2008 patched up version.  As one would expect.
[03:52:09] <The_8472> or rather, tests to find facts
[03:52:40] <[1]remy> :P
[03:52:53] <[1]remy> It is a fact that it *feels* slower to me right now.
[03:53:08] <[1]remy> But I certainly don't care enough to benchmark debug code :)
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[03:58:58] <Vaevictus> hey guys... i'm trying to debug a strange issue... my client (uTorrent 1.8.5) is trying to seed a torrent (as the first and so far only seed) ...
[03:59:08] <Vaevictus> ... the tracker reports 1 seed and 2 peers ...
[03:59:23] <Vaevictus> ... but my client isn't sending any data and isn't showing the peers on the peers list
[03:59:38] <TheSHAD0W> You're probably firewalled.
[03:59:43] <Vaevictus> the seeds/peers columns are like -  0(1) | 0(2)
[03:59:48] <Vaevictus> tracker says working...
[03:59:55] <TheSHAD0W> Um.
[04:00:05] <Vaevictus> ... and windows firewall is disabled, and the tracker is right here on the same network :)
[04:00:11] <TheSHAD0W> Someone who's more familiar w/ utorrent, please help him.
[04:00:13] <Switeck> You on ADSL?
[04:00:16] <Switeck> I am
[04:00:25] <Switeck> <- using uTorrent with ComCast
[04:00:39] <Vaevictus> funny thing is that i made a torrent a week ago and it worked first try
[04:01:05] <Vaevictus> i'm on cable ...
[04:01:09] <Vaevictus> Brighthouse :)
[04:01:10] <Switeck> got the green light in uTorrent at bottom center?
[04:01:12] <[1]remy> Try Advanced->CLear peer list
[04:01:14] <Vaevictus> aye
[04:01:36] <Switeck> remy, where'd you hear that clear peer list helps much? (not that it's a bad idea...)
[04:01:50] <[1]remy> I had utorrent add 2 peers to the count cleared the ban list
[04:01:54] <Vaevictus> [1]remy: yeah... tried that a few times... the peers list is empty... it's like utorrent doesn't want to grab the clients from the tracer
[04:02:12] <[1]remy> Doing a clear brought it back to what it should've been
[04:02:16] <Switeck> Are you sure there's real peers there?
[04:02:25] <Vaevictus> yeah... have them both on the phone lol
[04:02:29] <Switeck> ah
[04:02:35] <Switeck> are you using uTorrent's internal tracker?
[04:02:38] <Vaevictus> no
[04:02:42] <Switeck> good
[04:02:51] <Switeck> are those 2 peers firewalled?
[04:03:26] <Vaevictus> i don't think so... they're smart enough to have dealt with that, but I'll double check
[04:03:31] <Switeck> in v1.8.5, have you changed any advanced settings?
[04:03:47] <Vaevictus> don't think so... is there a way to revert them all to be sre?
[04:03:48] <Vaevictus> sure?
[04:03:59] <Switeck> any changed advanced settings have an * next to them
[04:04:07] <Switeck> reset on them changes them to default
[04:04:23] <Vaevictus> nope ... they're all default
[04:04:26] <Switeck> though there's some it does little harm to change...
[04:04:45] <Switeck> others are complete disaster! (bt.connect_speed and net.max_halfopen I choose you!0
[04:05:12] <Switeck> what's uTorrent's Logger window logging?
[04:05:21] <Switeck> is uTorrent even ATTEMPTING the ips?
[04:05:49] <Switeck> Are you receiving any incoming connections? ...but then "instantly" dropping them?
[04:06:01] <Switeck> Does the handshaking process succeed?
[04:06:44] <Switeck> If you manually added the 2 peers' ip:port to the torrent, does either of them work?
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[04:08:34] <Vaevictus> Switeck: hmm... how do i check?
[04:09:26] <Vaevictus> i'm working on getting the ip:port atm
[04:10:53] <Vaevictus> seems like adding the client directly isn't working
[04:13:18] <Switeck> Logger window, right-click to turn on logging
[04:13:22] <Switeck> don't turn on the verbose stuff :P
[04:14:36] <Switeck> you (or they) using Teredo/IPv6, native IPv6, or uTP?
[04:15:08] <Switeck> those are all UDP based as far as I know...
[04:15:13] <TheSHAD0W> Hmm...
[04:15:51] <TheSHAD0W> Vaevictus: Run this torrent:
[04:15:53] <TheSHAD0W> http://forums.degreez.net/viewtopic.php?t=1457
[04:16:10] <Vaevictus> hmm
[04:16:12] <Vaevictus> info finally
[04:16:26] <Vaevictus> Disconnect: No such torrent: BD4....A8
[04:17:11] <Switeck> a torrent you're no longer running (atm)
[04:17:32] <Vaevictus> oh... probably the stuff i turned off to help me debug
[04:17:36] <Vaevictus> i don't have the other ip handy
[04:17:43] <Vaevictus> so i didn't know whether it was theirs or not
[04:18:07] <Switeck> presumably, everyone is on the same torrent? :P
[04:18:33] <Vaevictus> have to be, otherwise my tracker wouldn't accept them
[04:18:41] <Switeck> ok
[04:19:09] <Switeck> what about my other questions?
[04:19:46] <Vaevictus> i've turned on the loggging
[04:19:54] <Vaevictus> incoming connection and disconnection
[04:20:17] <Vaevictus> and no, i'm not using any of the ipv6 stuff never heard of uTP
[04:20:21] <Switeck> log blocked connections too
[04:20:22] <Vaevictus> do i need to forward udp?
[04:20:26] <Vaevictus> yeah... logging everything
[04:20:41] <Switeck> probably...is the 2 peers using uTorrent v2.0 or later?
[04:21:27] <Vaevictus> no
[04:21:42] <Switeck> if they are, a bug in uTorrent could be causing instant fails with uTP
[04:21:42] <Vaevictus> 1.8.5 is what one is using, and the other is using 1.7.1 or something
[04:21:52] <Vaevictus> what's uTP
[04:21:54] <Switeck> v1.7.1 isn't even safe
[04:21:55] <Vaevictus> ?
[04:22:00] <Switeck> remote exploits in the wild
[04:22:05] <Vaevictus> yeah... i know :)
[04:22:55] <Switeck> uTP = new kind of peer/seed, using UDP instead of TCP so it can regulate speeds and even do NAT transversal (UDP hole-punching through NAT routers)
[04:28:08] <Vaevictus> interesting
[04:28:13] <Vaevictus> doubt anyone's flipped that on
[04:28:24] <Vaevictus> on of my seeds is a friend i sent a file to last week...
[04:28:45] <Vaevictus> er peers
[04:28:45] <Vaevictus> the other is my cousin who i had install utorrent tonight
[04:29:00] <Vaevictus> what's UPnP ?
[04:29:55] <Vaevictus> now i'm getting a "Disconnect: Same ID"
[04:31:03] <TheSHAD0W> That's normal, ignore it.
[04:32:12] <Switeck> UPnP = Microsoft's attempt to find a universal solution to NAT problems, and auto-configuring hardware
[04:32:22] <Switeck> Universal Plug and Play (Pray)
[04:32:48] <Vaevictus> oh, eww
[04:32:51] <Switeck> consumer-grade routers do a completely terrible job being even somewhat UPnP compliant.
[04:33:20] <Switeck> At this point, Microsoft isn't so much to blame...
[04:33:32] <Switeck> Apple's NAT-PMP isn't much better
[04:33:51] <Switeck> (at least as far as supporting devices are concerned...)
[04:38:12] <Switeck> is uTorrent even ATTEMPTING the ips?  Are you receiving any incoming connections? ...but then "instantly" dropping them?  Does the handshaking process succeed?    If you manually added the 2 peers' ip:port to the torrent, does either of them work?
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[04:40:38] <Vaevictus> how do i check the handshaking?
[04:40:50] <Vaevictus> i get the incoming and then they drop
[04:41:05] <Vaevictus> it's really strange, i've been seeding at a private tracker for a long time
[04:41:21] <Vaevictus> high ratios for the things i was doing up until this one torrent
[04:42:00] <Vaevictus> if i add the ip:port... nothing happens
[04:42:05] <Vaevictus> peers tab stays blank
[04:44:23] <Vaevictus> if i start other torrents, they'er handshaking
[04:44:41] <Vaevictus> just not the ones i made...
[04:44:46] <Vaevictus> wonder why that is
[04:45:01] <Switeck> so incoming fail
[04:45:02] <Switeck> and outgoing?
[04:45:15] <Vaevictus> other torrents work as they should...
[04:45:18] <Switeck> yes
[04:45:39] <Vaevictus> the two torrents i made tonight aren't.
[04:45:44] <Switeck> but, you don't know if that's due to them being "ok" torrents...or you still have huge failure rates on them too.
[04:46:01] <Switeck> You probably have ip failure rates >90% on them
[04:46:13] <Vaevictus> why's that?
[04:46:33] <Vaevictus> lots of log stuff going on
[04:46:46] <Switeck> simple: high firewall rates
[04:46:51] <Switeck> huge numbers of bad BTclients
[04:47:05] <Switeck> and 'good' BT clients using incredibly bad/hostile settings
[04:47:51] <Switeck> buggy networking software (Zone Alarm, Belkin/Linksys routers with default firmware, USB networking devices, wireless)
[04:47:57] <Switeck> hostile ISPs
[04:48:06] <Switeck> intentionally hostile peers/seeds
[04:48:41] <Switeck> Sorting out the underlying causes can be nigh-impossible.
[04:49:02] <Switeck> So...what software firewall/s are you using? (including Antivirus software)
[04:49:27] <Switeck> Are you using wireless LAN networking? USB network card? Belkin, Linksys, D-Link router?
[04:50:04] <Vaevictus> no no no no
[04:50:05] <Vaevictus> :)
[04:50:23] <Vaevictus> wired lan, crossover cable to linux firewall (with tracker) ...
[04:51:00] <Vaevictus> i turned my other torrents back on... not getting a lot of peers, but i've got one i'm sending to fine...
[04:52:51] <Switeck> what's the linux firewall say?
[04:53:02] <Switeck> It could be blocking/corrupting traffic :(
[04:53:16] <Vaevictus> it's not doing anything other than nat
[04:53:54] <Vaevictus> what traffic are you worried that it could be blocking?
[04:54:20] <Switeck> incoming
[04:54:20] <Vaevictus> i'm getting info from the tracker as to how many peers and seeds are in the swarm, and i'm getting data from other trackers
[04:54:46] <Vaevictus> bidirectional traffic to other peers from other torrents...
[04:55:11] <Vaevictus> the utorrent widget says that my firewall stuff is set up properly
[04:56:29] <Switeck> are most of the other torrents getting their connections via incoming or outgoing?
[04:56:31] <Vaevictus> any idea what the # column means in utorrent?
[04:56:37] <Switeck> I mean mostly via incoming OR outgoing
[04:56:54] <Switeck> # column = priority for which download starts first
[04:57:01] <Vaevictus> what do i look for to answer that question?
[04:57:07] <Switeck> Peers window
[04:57:13] <Switeck> disable Resolve IPs XD
[04:57:13] <Vaevictus> ah... mine says * for that column...
[04:57:45] <TheSHAD0W> Vaevictus: Can you DCC me the torrent?
[04:57:48] <Switeck> * may be seeding or less than ratio max
[04:57:52] <Switeck> or me?
[04:58:02] <Vaevictus> TheSHAD0W: the test one i'm using that also seems to not be working
[04:58:07] <TheSHAD0W> ...
[04:58:14] <Vaevictus> TheSHAD0W: http://vaevictus.net/output.mp3.torrent
[04:58:21] <TheSHAD0W> The "test one"?  The one I sent you?
[04:58:26] <Vaevictus> no
[04:58:34] <TheSHAD0W> Oh, okay.
[04:58:52] <Vaevictus> i've got a 170mb batch of files i'm trying to send, but that's a tiny mmp3 :)
[04:58:56] <Vaevictus> mp3 even
[05:00:11] <TheSHAD0W> Is that your tracker?
[05:00:15] <Vaevictus> yes
[05:00:21] <TheSHAD0W> It may be dysfunctional.
[05:00:33] <TheSHAD0W> Try a torrent with openbittorrent.com and see if that works.
[05:00:36] <Vaevictus> very well could be, though i used it to send a cd image a while ago
[05:00:40] <Vaevictus> a week ago i mean
[05:00:48] <TheSHAD0W> Well, it's not giving me any peers data.
[05:00:59] <TheSHAD0W> Oh wait a sec.
[05:01:03] <TheSHAD0W> Duh, that's scrape data.
[05:01:05] <TheSHAD0W> X_X
[05:02:01] <TheSHAD0W> Connected to 1 peer, 0%, 68.59.122.xxx
[05:02:07] <TheSHAD0W> Is that someone else doing testing?
[05:02:11] <Switeck> i am
[05:02:17] <TheSHAD0W> Okay.
[05:02:23] <TheSHAD0W> Methinks you are firewalled, Vaevictus.
[05:02:25] <Vaevictus> tracker is hosed
[05:02:36] <TheSHAD0W> Oh, I'm getting data now.
[05:02:39] <Vaevictus> yeah
[05:02:43] <TheSHAD0W> Switeck connected to you.
[05:03:02] <Vaevictus> i added Switeck directly, then something happened
[05:03:05] <Switeck> ok, "is seed"
[05:03:07] <TheSHAD0W> Ah.
[05:03:15] <TheSHAD0W> LMAO
[05:03:20] <TheSHAD0W> Weebl's Stuff.
[05:03:33] <Switeck> It seems I uploaded the torrent 100% to Shadow
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[05:03:44] <Vaevictus> figures, since i never got shadow as a peer
[05:03:46] <Switeck> so shadow could NOT connect to Vaevictus at all
[05:03:56] <Vaevictus> or i never got shadow's info
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[05:04:16] <Vaevictus> gotta be my tracker or my isp, methinks
[05:04:18] <Switeck> I think I know why
[05:04:28] <TheSHAD0W> Oh.
[05:04:37] <TheSHAD0W> Vaevictus: Is the tracker on the same machine as your seed?
[05:04:39] <Vaevictus> Switeck dnat isn't working
[05:04:42] <Vaevictus> argh
[05:04:59] <TheSHAD0W> Or behind the same router?
[05:05:08] <Switeck> <-  ultimate beta-tester strikes again, stumbling over things that work for other people (meaning I crash a lot)
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[05:05:43] <Vaevictus> i never had this problem before
[05:05:56] <TheSHAD0W> Vaevictus: Is the tracker on the same machine as your seed?
[05:05:57] <TheSHAD0W> Or behind the same router?
[05:06:12] <Vaevictus> tracker is the 'router' for my seed machine
[05:06:21] <TheSHAD0W> Okay, there's your problem.
[05:06:29] <TheSHAD0W> Specify a manual external IP in your client.
[05:06:30] <Vaevictus> wasn't a problem a week ago :|
[05:06:33] <Vaevictus> k
[05:07:07] <Switeck> or add this tracker to your torrent:  http://tracker.openbittorrent.com:80/announce
[05:07:15] <TheSHAD0W> Er, no.
[05:07:25] <TheSHAD0W> That doesn't necessarily fix things.
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[05:07:41] <Switeck> I know, but if he wants it working now...and everyone uses that tracker, it'll probably work
[05:08:09] <TheSHAD0W> Vaevictus: The problem is, the tracker will autodetect the seed with your intranet IP, and when it sends that out to other people it obviously doesn't work.
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[05:09:09] <Switeck> but...if others connect to the tracker, how come you can't get their ip just fine?
[05:09:32] <Vaevictus> good question
[05:09:41] <Switeck> I think the tracker's buggy
[05:09:49] <Switeck> it's reporting your ip as x.x.x.0
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[05:12:37] <The_8472> .0 are legit IPs you know
[05:12:55] <Switeck> they can be legit
[05:13:00] <Switeck> but many times they are not
[05:13:42] <Vaevictus> hmm
[05:13:45] <Switeck> And in this case, it is not.
[05:17:58] <Switeck> I am going through my own logs to see if I can make sense of it all
[05:20:40] <Switeck> http://pastebin.com/df586b90
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[05:23:25] <TheSHAD0W> The_8472: http://www.weebls-stuff.com/toons/Captain+Planet+goes+to+Copenhagen/
[05:23:54] <The_8472> flash...
[05:24:01] * The_8472 hates
[05:24:18] <Switeck> same
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[06:01:55] <alus> but why? flash is the most advanced piece of a webbrowser
[06:01:59] <alus> and it works the same everywhere
[06:02:54] <The_8472> flash has the tendency to crash the entire browser and is rather inefficient
[06:03:38] <The_8472> not to mention that by now html/svg/javascript/css is theoretically able to achieve the same as flash, just that nobody wrote sufficiently powerful libraries to do it
[06:03:50] <The_8472> there basically are pieces out there, but no whole thing
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[06:19:50] <Vaevictus> hey guys... i need a linux tracker and client... what's 3 good ones?
[06:20:49] <Vaevictus> cli only, please :)
[06:21:36] <The_8472> http://erdgeist.org/arts/software/opentracker/ <- good tracker if you need scaleability
[06:22:46] <TheSHAD0W> ...
[06:23:03] <The_8472> it's not good for instrumenting it though
[06:23:14] <TheSHAD0W> It needs a list of hashes?  It can't scan a directory for torrents?  Geez...
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[07:05:21] <Switeck> 20 busy torrents started at once -- how much upload bandwidth is recommended minimum amount to handle that? (assuming public torrents)
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[07:06:23] <swolchok> TheSHAD0W: write a shell script that uses bt_showmetainfo to generate the list of hashes
[07:06:27] <swolchok> ;)
[07:07:25] <alus> Switeck: why, the total of the upload bandwidth average for each torrent
[07:07:35] <alus> Switeck: or more. or less, with more seeding time
[07:07:58] <Switeck> huh?
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[07:08:21] <alus> you shouldn't take more from the torrent than you give. that's my recommendation
[07:08:29] <Switeck> seeding
[07:08:38] <alus> you didn't say seeding
[07:08:38] <Switeck> they're all done...someone wanted to keep them seeding
[07:08:44] <Switeck> shouldn't matter XD
[07:08:45] <alus> seed at any rate you like
[07:08:58] <alus> any bandwidth is more than no bandwidth
[07:09:08] <Switeck> why is there anything wrong with downloading faster than uploading?
[07:09:16] <Switeck> they're public torrents
[07:09:42] <Switeck> there is definitely minimum upload speeds PER torrent
[07:09:55] <Switeck> or it's just burning bandwidth :P
[07:10:30] <Switeck> Nobody much wants to get 0.1-0.5 KB/sec "grunts" for <5 seconds out of a minute
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[07:13:30] <alus> Switeck: who doesn't want bandwidth?
[07:13:53] <Switeck> No, I mean it's a FAILURE below a certain point...
[07:14:18] <alus> Switeck: and downloading faster than uploading is bad if you stop uploading. if everyone does that, the swarm eventually prevents you from downloading faster than you're uploading
[07:14:25] <alus> when is it a failure?
[07:14:57] <Switeck> All the extra peer/seed crosstalk ends up using other peers/seeds upload bandwidth so the swarm lost more upload bandwidth than it gains...just by you being there!
[07:14:57] <alus> sure, there are timeouts, but that's near 500 bytes a second
[07:15:14] <Vaevictus> anyway, thanks again, all, gnite
[07:15:14] <alus> crosstalk does not count
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[07:15:34] <Switeck> maybe it doesn't count to you, but it's real even if relatively small
[07:15:46] <alus> it's insignificant
[07:16:10] <alus> it's a rounding error compared to other traffic on the web competing for bandwidth
[07:16:57] <The_8472> 4kB/s per upload slot should be the minimum. and at least 1 upload slot per torrent
[07:17:06] <Switeck> then likewise, uploading at an insignificant amount is nothing more than a rounding error and "noise"
[07:17:21] <alus> but that noise adds up to a file
[07:17:23] <Switeck> 4 KB/sec, 1 upload slot per torrent, 20 torrents = 80 KB/sec min upload speed
[07:17:49] <Switeck> considering it often increases duplicated download...no
[07:18:10] <alus> yes.. they will eventually get it
[07:18:14] <The_8472> more than 1 slot per torrent would be better in most cases
[07:18:40] <Switeck> Yes, and use potentially 20-100% more bandwidth doing it!
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[07:18:54] <alus> better than no file
[07:19:10] <Switeck> But what you'and that is neither reasonable nor
[07:19:12] <The_8472> how about only seeding a few torrents at a time and rotate...
[07:19:14] <Switeck> bleh typo city
[07:19:21] <Switeck> what you're suggesting is neither reasonable or fair, alus
[07:19:31] <Switeck> I'm asking for both for this scenario
[07:19:52] <Switeck> someone wanted to seed 20 torrents at once, all active
[07:21:07] <Switeck> uTorrent's built-in Speed Guide (CTRL+G) suggested 20 active torrents at once for 50 megabits/second upload bandwidth
[07:21:21] <The_8472> well, that isn't too bad
[07:21:40] <Switeck> I'm thinking it'd be ok to do 20 torrents with ...maybe 1/10th that?
[07:21:57] <The_8472> there is a difference between "ok" and "good"
[07:22:03] <Switeck> yes
[07:22:04] <The_8472> or rather
[07:22:33] <The_8472> there is a difference between "at the balance between harmful and ok" and "optimal"
[07:22:48] <Switeck> 20 torrents, 2-4 upload slots each
[07:25:50] <Switeck> with 2 upload slots and at least 500 KB/sec total upload speed, that'd be >12 KB/sec per upload slot.
[07:26:14] <The_8472> that makes it a lot better in case the torrents have larger pieces
[07:27:30] <Switeck> Even with 4 upload slots, it still manages >6 KB/sec -- better than most, and the "slow" peers would mean that fast peers would often get maybe 2-4 times that much from you sometimes.
[07:28:58] <Switeck> Not every torrent would have 4 upload slots all the time, even if they always have >10 peers on each.
[07:29:21] <Switeck> (or rather some upload slots would be 0 KB/sec)
[07:31:41] <Switeck> The_8472, squeezing the numbers down to 4 KB/sec per upload slot might make 20 active torrents at once with 2 upload slots each possible even with 1.5 mbit/sec upload speed.
[07:32:02] <The_8472> yes. you still shouldn't do it
[07:32:13] <Switeck> far from harmful, but...obviously not "optimal".
[07:32:38] <Switeck> I've got ~10 torrents started at once on my 1 mbit/sec upload line.
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[07:35:05] <Switeck> only one of which is consistently busy (~7-20 peers), the rest altogether seldom have 10 peers.
[07:36:19] <Switeck> They'd be very poorly seeded at best if I quit, typically reporting only 1 or 2 seeds.
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