[00:03:29] <alus> the DHT is a very attackable thing
[00:03:54] <alus> it's possible to make a much more resilient DHT, but Kademlia is not
[00:04:42] <The_8472> kademlia can be made less attackable than the mainline DHT variant though
[00:04:51] *** GTHK has joined #bittorrent
[00:05:31] <JudgeSHAD0W> You could maybe switch to Vuze's DHT and not reinvent the wheel...
[00:05:43] <JudgeSHAD0W> Oh, that's right, there's no spec for Vuze's DHT.
[00:05:57] *** dandon has quit IRC
[00:06:13] <The_8472> afaik parg gave one to those who asked
[00:06:27] <JudgeSHAD0W> I asked, he didn't want to release it.
[00:06:39] *** dandon has joined #bittorrent
[00:07:16] <The_8472> hrrrm, odd
[00:07:35] <JudgeSHAD0W> I may have to reverse engineer it from the code.
[00:07:45] <JudgeSHAD0W> Of course, if I screw it up, it might cause the system to collapse...
[00:07:53] <JudgeSHAD0W> So it's kind of in his best interest.  ^__^
[00:07:59] <JudgeSHAD0W> Anyway, got to leave.
[00:08:14] *** JudgeSHAD0W has quit IRC
[00:09:47] *** KyleK_ has joined #bittorrent
[00:14:24] *** Andrius has joined #bittorrent
[00:15:32] <alus> the Vuze DHT I imagine is nowhere near unattackable either
[00:15:48] <alus> if DHT attack becomes a problem, there is plenty of literature on the topic
[00:16:54] <Nolar> far more so than mldht though
[00:17:11] <Nolar> but we havent seen any real world attacks yet to really test :)
[00:17:41] <Nolar> matter of time though i suppose
[00:20:12] *** andar2 has quit IRC
[00:21:45] <dandon> hm K`Tetch. not that it has anything to do with this, but i came across this a few days back. http://dontapscott.com/2009/11/26/the-uk-governments-digital-economy-bill-is-deeply-flawed/
[00:22:15] <dandon> i don't know this guy, but....
[00:23:23] <dandon> maybe he's just parroting everything the boards are saying. who knows
[00:30:13] *** dandon has quit IRC
[00:30:47] *** dandon has joined #bittorrent
[00:31:24] *** waldorf_ has quit IRC
[00:33:50] <dandon> The_8472: are you vuze dev?
[00:34:28] <The_8472> yes
[00:34:51] <swolchok> I have a compatible implementation of the Vuze DHT wire protocol in Python and C
[00:35:02] <swolchok> and I've updated the docs. too bad SHAD0W split
[00:36:14] <The_8472> nice
[00:36:49] <dandon> before i report, if necessary. i've got here a 1.35 f ile. i have imported the 100% file the thing is the ratio is completely off, because vuze hasn't flagged the download field properly
[00:38:22] <The_8472> you can set the initial amount of "downlaoded" under the seeding rules
[00:38:47] *** GTHKn has joined #bittorrent
[00:39:47] <dandon> ? i have a ratio of 7054. i uploaded 1.60
[00:40:00] <dandon> *uploaded only
[00:40:34] <The_8472> what is a 1.35 file anyway?
[00:40:53] <dandon> gib
[00:41:21] <dandon> i will try an recheck it. maybe i did something "wrong" the first time, who knows
[00:41:21] <The_8472> you can set the initial amount of "downlaoded" under the seeding rules <-
[00:41:42] <dandon> ummm i can cheat?
[00:42:20] <The_8472> no, it's only for the internal queue rules
[00:42:29] <The_8472> and only for 100% torrents you import
[00:43:11] <dandon> where is that? queue> ? i searched for initi. didn't find anything
[00:48:12] <The_8472> "consider add for seeding torrents" ...
[00:52:15] *** GTHK_ has joined #bittorrent
[00:52:28] <dandon> i have set this to one. anyway, the file i re-checked in stopped state after deleting it first, was imported not entirely as 100% (99.5 %)
[00:53:08] <alus> swolchok: what license is your Vuze DHT implementation?
[00:53:31] <dandon> no it's 99.9. i have downloaded the first time 238 kib now, after the 2nd import i have again 224 kib remaining
[00:54:12] <dandon> and btw thanks for the proper size prefix
[00:54:58] <swolchok> alus: it's not publicly available right now.
[00:55:31] <swolchok> it's also not complete enough to build a full BT client
[00:56:56] *** GTHK has quit IRC
[00:59:00] <swolchok> I'm not convinced that the community at large could really move to Vuze DHT; it's much more complicated than mlDHT, at least judging from the mlDHT spec (which, e.g., doesn't even require replication of anything)
[00:59:51] <swolchok> OTOH I guess it wouldn't be a big problem if there were nice libraries available.
[01:01:30] <Nolar> yes, azdht is considerably more complex
[01:01:47] *** tris has quit IRC
[01:01:57] <Nolar> libs would help
[01:03:03] <swolchok> I'll see what I can do about releasing my stuff, but it will be at least 1-2 months if it happens at all. If the standard for projects in my distributed systems class is low, maybe I'll be able to flesh out the impl for a class project.
[01:05:05] *** GTHK has joined #bittorrent
[01:05:26] *** tris has joined #bittorrent
[01:06:03] <dandon> The_8472: any word on ^
[01:06:26] <dandon> i didn't do it that way. http://wiki.vuze.com/index.php/How_do_you_resume
[01:06:58] <dandon> i've always (previous versiosn) done it with re-checking and iirc it always worked correctly
[01:07:01] <swolchok> how do developers typically identify bittorrent clients, like for banning BitComet?
[01:07:49] <dandon> i guess by the header?
[01:09:08] <swolchok> what header? the bittorrent protocol (in BEP 0003) doesn't seem to have a client identifier field, and if there was one it could just be spoofed
[01:09:39] <The_8472> peer id
[01:10:01] <The_8472> and yes, ofc it can be spoofed
[01:10:02] <swolchok> I thought those were random?
[01:10:09] <The_8472> they're not
[01:10:12] <swolchok> s/random/supposed to be random/
[01:10:18] *** GTHKn has quit IRC
[01:11:13] <dandon> figures. i've seen more than one client with weird symbols or just random letters
[01:11:21] <dandon> well, i guessed wrong ^^
[01:12:50] *** Andrius has quit IRC
[01:14:57] <The_8472> though the BEP 3 handshake and messaging protocol should be replaced ~~
[01:15:37] <swolchok> is BEP 3 inaccurate?
[01:15:56] <The_8472> no. i'm talking about the old handshake
[01:16:07] <The_8472> the extension protocols are way better
[01:29:27] *** GTHK_ has quit IRC
[01:49:06] <Nolar> paul is willing to help out with azdht impl, but he's been burned before by putting in lots of effort that just goes to waste
[01:49:24] <Nolar> and implementors need to impl it properly and fully
[01:49:47] <Nolar> not just the bare wire protocol, which is like 10% of the work
[01:52:17] <Nolar> it's like people impl just the bt handshake and not bothering with the rest of the bt protocol
[02:06:54] <DWKnight> my torrent maker's progression was much more appropriate
[02:09:26] <Nolar> ?
[02:11:53] *** KyleK_ has quit IRC
[02:13:57] *** white_magic has joined #bittorrent
[02:14:55] <white_magic> this isn't the best place to ask, but can anyone recommend a Gnutella app (for downloading Linux ISOs with the mp3 file extension)?
[02:15:37] * MobileDe gives a weird look
[02:16:11] <white_magic> just need to find one particular ISO that isn't found on bittorrent trackers
[02:18:59] <swolchok> Nolar: why bother implementing it "properly and fully" when it's not necessary
[02:19:55] <The_8472> swolchok, because you're harming the rest that way
[02:20:33] <Switeck> If you can be a decent DHT node...DHT is better off without you?
[02:20:48] <The_8472> you mean "can't"?
[02:20:52] *** white_magic has quit IRC
[02:20:57] <Switeck> my bad, yes "can't"
[02:21:03] <The_8472> then yes
[02:21:26] <swolchok> how is it particularly harmful to implement Vuze DHT only insofar as it's a kademlia implementation and ignore the embellishments
[02:21:29] *** bittwist has joined #BitTorrent
[02:21:56] <The_8472> because others rely on those features being available
[02:22:02] <swolchok> perhaps they shouldn't
[02:22:18] <The_8472> that's what a spec is for. stick to it
[02:22:18] <swolchok> playing devil's advocate, someone who doesn't give a fuck is going to come along and ship a compatible-enough impl sooner or later
[02:22:34] <Nolar> <swolchok> Nolar: why bother implementing it "properly and fully" when it's not necessary << i hope you're joking, 'cause that's exactly the attitude that will get you no help from him ;)
[02:23:09] <swolchok> I'm not going to ship a Vuze DHT implementation intended for production use in torrent clients in the forseeable future
[02:23:23] <swolchok> they don't give out doctorates for that :)
[02:23:43] <Nolar> they should ;)
[02:23:56] <The_8472> or medals of honor at least
[02:24:00] <Nolar> :)
[02:24:01] <swolchok> so yeah, I'm just playing devil's advocate
[02:26:10] <swolchok> actually, it shouldn't be too hard to just leech off the DHT and, e.g., query it without actually joining. definitely antisocial though
[02:31:53] <Nolar> basic querying sure
[02:32:05] <Nolar> that's one some of the researchers have been doing
[02:32:08] <Nolar> what
[02:32:28] <Nolar> but if you dont support diversification for example, you run into trouble even there
[02:33:10] <swolchok> I still haven't figured out what diversification means
[02:33:40] <The_8472> deriving a different target key in case nodes under the original target key signal that they're under heavy load
[02:33:41] <Nolar> used when a key becomes a hotsport
[02:33:44] <Nolar> hotspot
[02:33:45] <The_8472> basically a form of load balancing
[02:34:07] <swolchok> isn't Kademlia cache-along-path supposed to handle that
[02:34:22] <The_8472> that is an option that was supported too
[02:34:29] <The_8472> but it caused clustering or something like that
[02:35:01] <Nolar> there's also the obfuscated lookups
[02:35:12] <swolchok> yes, which emphatically are *not* necessary :)
[02:35:27] <The_8472> it's necessary if you want to participate
[02:35:43] <Nolar> and keep things anonymous ;)
[02:35:46] <swolchok> besides, I thought only the looking client needed to do anything for obfuscated lookup
[02:36:09] <Nolar> both storers and lookers need to know
[02:36:35] <swolchok> yeah, but that doesn't hold up when someone maliciously doesn't participate in obfuscated lookup
[02:36:50] <Nolar> then they'll fail to find the keys ;)
[02:37:02] <swolchok> last time I checked that wasn't how it worked
[02:37:18] <Nolar> [16:31] <parg> e.g. obfuscated lookup requires you to lookup on a key derived in a certain way from the original. then when you find the store target set you store 2 things
[02:37:18] <Nolar> [16:31] <parg> 1) a cryptographically derived value at the obfuscated location 2) the real value
[02:37:21] <swolchok> IIRC vanish 0.1 used obfuscated lookup and its keys show up just fine
[02:38:06] <Nolar> vanish is not us
[02:38:35] <Nolar> and then there was the counter finding of how vanish could be broken :)
[02:38:53] <swolchok> oh, I think I get what you're saying
[02:39:07] <Nolar> ..which is fixed with the latest dht
[02:39:13] <swolchok> both storers and lookers need to know about it if they're interested in doing obfuscated lookup
[02:39:35] <swolchok> but if you completely don't care, the keys are still in the dht at their usual locations
[02:39:46] <swolchok> Nolar: orly
[02:39:54] <swolchok> perhaps this is more appropriate for #azureus
[02:40:06] <Nolar> not sure if the fix that kills your phd project is that one though ;)
[02:41:01] *** bt42 has quit IRC
[02:41:08] <swolchok> I'm not really amused by replication control
[02:41:17] <swolchok> no work on it yet though
[02:45:50] <The_8472> the thing is, vuze uses those features. why would we be interested in nodes that don't support needed features?
[02:46:31] <swolchok> sure, you don't have an incentive to support that
[02:46:43] <swolchok> but you probably don't have a choice other than protesting vigorously
[02:46:54] <swolchok> or getting into an arms race
[02:47:36] <The_8472> which would be egoistic by whoever is doing that
[02:47:47] <The_8472> a case of EEE
[02:47:56] <The_8472> or an attempt at least
[02:47:59] <Nolar> eee ?
[02:48:15] <The_8472> embrace, extend, exterminate
[02:48:24] <The_8472> a famous m$ strategy
[02:48:35] <Nolar> ahh right
[02:48:35] <swolchok> more like embrace, fail to implement, coexist?
[02:48:54] <The_8472> EEE is the commonly known name swolchok
[02:49:18] <swolchok> oh and the last E is extinguish :)
[02:49:33] <The_8472> same meaning ^^
[02:49:52] <Switeck> Why is Vuze rapidly losing marketshare overall?
[02:50:40] <The_8472> well, personally i would blame the FUD around the new UI
[02:50:41] <Switeck> (mis)perception that it's slow and bloated?
[02:50:49] <The_8472> that too
[02:51:07] <Switeck> You change a GUI noticeably and almost nobody will be happy.
[02:51:43] <swolchok> Switeck: are you looking at http://torrentfreak.com/utorrent-dominates-bittorrent-client-market-share-090624/ ?
[02:52:02] <Switeck> yes
[02:52:15] <swolchok> cool. good to know everyone seems to be running utorrent
[02:52:51] <Switeck> not really a good thing atm
[02:53:14] <Switeck> latest versions have major quirks and bugs that haven't been sorted out.
[02:53:15] <Nolar> <Switeck> Why is Vuze rapidly losing marketshare overall?  << says who?
[02:53:20] <swolchok> BEP 9 is ambiguous, how are you supposed to send metadata_size if you don't know the metadata size because you're following a magnet link?
[02:53:42] <Switeck> various "claims" I've seen in news/studies
[02:53:45] <Nolar> http://torrentfreak.com/thunder-blasts-utorrents-market-share-away-091204/
[02:53:45] <The_8472> you dont send it because you don't have it, no?
[02:54:10] <Nolar> another set of useless share stats
[02:54:16] <swolchok> oh okay, I wasn't sure if maybe the initiator just wasn't supposed to send the handshake message at all
[02:54:22] <Switeck> Xunlei is not a true BitTorrent client
[02:54:49] <Switeck> It's a nasty kludge of BitTorrent at best
[02:55:17] <The_8472> good thing that it's used mostly regionally
[02:55:33] <Nolar> i almost never see it
[02:55:44] <The_8472> i do. 1-2 peers per swarm
[02:55:53] <Nolar> i call that almost never :)
[02:55:59] <The_8472> ^^
[02:56:00] <Switeck> I ban them when I see them
[02:56:08] <Nolar> you clearly arent downloading chinese linux isos either ;)
[02:56:34] <The_8472> the chinese don't make stuff i'm interested in ^^
[02:56:57] <Nolar> pretty sure their kids have made half of what's in front of me now....
[02:57:36] <The_8472> well, i dont see them on popular pirated western stuff either
[02:57:38] <Switeck> If the child labor laws that we have came into force over in China, they'd probably have to fire 1/4 of their labor force.
[02:57:59] <Switeck> I see Xunlei clients from ARIN ip ranges
[02:58:31] <The_8472> does xunlei have dht?
[02:58:32] <Switeck> They must've gotten mad that BitComet was banned, so they switched to it instead. :P
[02:59:14] <Switeck> I don't know
[03:01:13] <Nolar> The_8472 i'd guess not
[03:01:22] <Nolar> then again, they've impl a bunch of other protocols....
[03:01:49] <Switeck> They share everything
[03:01:58] <Switeck> C:, D:, etc...
[03:02:41] <The_8472> must be popular with dissidents :P
[03:02:50] <swolchok> sharing is fun!
[03:03:15] <Nolar> and afaik you can search for anything on those shares
[03:03:23] <Nolar> sounds like winney all over again
[03:03:34] <Switeck> which means your upload gets tied up...uploading junk
[03:03:55] <Switeck> I came to BitTorrent to avoid open-ended sharing.
[03:09:54] <alus> Switeck: Xunlei is the amazing future of BitTorrent clients
[03:10:34] <charles> I, for one, welcome our new BitTorrent client overlords
[03:11:16] <alus> heh
[03:11:26] <swolchok> man, someone should send the Xunlei folks a crappy Vuze DHT implementation ;)
[03:11:54] <swolchok> I bet poor parg would have a heart attack
[03:12:05] <Switeck> Why help them out, they're doing a great job wrecking torrent swarms on their own. :(
[03:12:19] * charles suspects the TF market share articles are full of shit anyway
[03:12:26] <Nolar> swolchok :)
[03:12:30] <Switeck> a single Xunlei client out of 50 ...and my logs fills up with 98+% errors from it.
[03:12:31] <alus> Switeck: if by wrecking you mean accelerating
[03:12:43] <Switeck> bullshit
[03:12:45] <Nolar> lol
[03:12:59] <alus> Xunlie is powered by local caches in China
[03:13:03] <swolchok> how does TF do those estimate?
[03:13:08] <Nolar> 1 billion torrent peers cant be wrong!
[03:13:08] <alus> caches the rest of us do not have access to
[03:13:08] <Switeck> I can be connected to one and it'll still attempt to reconnect to me many times a minute.
[03:13:12] <alus> this is the future of BitTorrent
[03:13:31] <Switeck> only for the popular stuff
[03:13:43] <Switeck> some of us have always been off the beaten path
[03:13:43] <alus> no, caches can work with everything
[03:13:45] <swolchok> btw, interesting useless fact: it's pronounced shoon-lay not zoon-lay
[03:13:50] <The_8472> caches... have been tried, ISPs wouldn't use them
[03:13:51] <charles> so is Xunley run as a PC client a la uTorrent and Vuze?  or is it embedded in set-top boxes?  or both?
[03:13:59] <Switeck> sure, if ISPs want to invest in 100 TB's of caches everywhere
[03:14:12] <alus> swolchok: unless you're from Beijing, then it's shoon-ler
[03:14:24] <alus> maybe more like shoon-lwar
[03:14:37] <alus> charles: PC afaik
[03:14:50] <alus> Switeck: you don't need 100 TBs.
[03:15:11] <Switeck> then you won't have everything
[03:15:29] <alus> you will have everything which might be downloaded
[03:15:47] <Switeck> that statement seems ominous
[03:16:00] <Switeck> are you implying "they" will control what "might be downloaded"?
[03:16:05] <alus> no..
[03:16:15] <alus> I'm just saying not everything which is uploaded is also downloaded
[03:16:25] <The_8472> the long tail will strike you like a Ankylosaurus' tail
[03:16:31] <charles> that's an interesting point
[03:16:50] <Switeck> I am aware of upload > download due to losses, disconnects, etc
[03:17:03] <The_8472> well, but those losses are fairly constant
[03:17:04] <charles> if you upload a file to just a cache that might or might not serve it back out... does that count as filesharing still?
[03:17:13] <alus> Switeck: I mean individual torrents, not ratios.
[03:17:14] <The_8472> so for all intents and purposes uploaded = downloaded.
[03:17:25] <Switeck> I mean individual torrents, not ratios
[03:17:33] <Nolar> afaik american isps are worried about legal issues, not price
[03:17:35] <Nolar> cost
[03:17:37] <alus> charles: tree falls in a forest, etc. clearly the cache should only be warmed on first download at the very least
[03:17:42] <Switeck> I get typically a couple MB wasted on torrents
[03:17:57] <alus> yeah I'm not talking about MB
[03:18:12] <Switeck> caches are to be the stupid way to implement multicast?
[03:18:25] <The_8472> basically, yes
[03:18:32] <Switeck> ok, that's what I thought XD
[03:18:36] <alus> if by stupid you mean functional and kinda how the web works already
[03:19:02] <TheSHAD0W> Multicast is basically an ISP cache with a really, really REALLY short lifespan.
[03:19:03] <TheSHAD0W> ;-)
[03:19:05] <The_8472> multicast works afaik, i mean there are few technological issues. most of the real issues are lack of deployment
[03:19:32] <Switeck> LAN based multicast is common?
[03:19:45] <TheSHAD0W> Well.
[03:19:58] <alus> The_8472: yeah? set up a small multi-hop multicast network which functions. let me know when you're done :)
[03:20:01] <TheSHAD0W> Broadcast is used all the time.
[03:20:18] <The_8472> lan based multicast almost always works. its used for router discovery and so on in ipv6, you can't do without it ^^
[03:20:28] <Switeck> broadcast often means sending to everyone on LAN
[03:20:55] <TheSHAD0W> The_8472: That's broadcast, not multicast.
[03:21:01] <Switeck> Multicast can be more discriminating from what I understand.
[03:21:29] <The_8472> TheSHAD0W, it's multicast
[03:21:29] <TheSHAD0W> You don't really need discrimination on a LAN.
[03:21:33] <TheSHAD0W> Oh?
[03:21:56] <Switeck> ISPs have been jackasses for years about the amount of web space they give each customer.
[03:22:03] <TheSHAD0W> Hehe.
[03:22:10] <Switeck> and how much traffic each web space is allowed to "pull" per day/month.
[03:22:18] <The_8472> TheSHAD0W: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IPv6#Stateless_address_autoconfiguration
[03:22:23] <TheSHAD0W> Switeck: Let me tell you a story...
[03:22:35] *** bt42 has joined #BitTorrent
[03:22:45] <TheSHAD0W> Before "BitTornado" I used to distribute my client code on my ISP webspace.
[03:22:58] <TheSHAD0W> One day they took it down and I was mad as hell.
[03:23:04] <TheSHAD0W> I called them up.
[03:23:07] <Nolar> i doubt you'll see ISP caches in the states anytime soon, at least not generic ones
[03:23:23] <TheSHAD0W> The people who actually ran the ISP's web space called me back...
[03:23:34] <MobileDe> how many gigs a day?
[03:23:39] <Switeck> wow, they called you back?! O.O
[03:23:50] <TheSHAD0W> They said they were happy to host me, but it was taking up too much bandwidth.
[03:24:01] <TheSHAD0W> The ISP's limit was 750 megabytes per month.
[03:24:05] <charles> heh
[03:24:06] <K`Tetch> whats funny, my UK ISP used to be anal about email accounts going, but my personal web space is still up and running, 7 years later
[03:24:09] <The_8472> <alus> The_8472: yeah? set up a small multi-hop multicast network which functions. let me know when you're done :) <- friend of mine has setup a dd-wrt as igmp-aware router so he can watch the multicasted IPTV that his ISP provides without using their crappy standard routers. it works.
[03:24:10] <MobileDe> that's about 200 downloads
[03:24:15] <TheSHAD0W> And my account was doing that every 12 minutes, when they shut me down...
[03:24:22] *** GTHKn has joined #bittorrent
[03:24:28] <The_8472> they provide IPTV via multicast to millions. not SSM though
[03:26:06] <Switeck> I did ~750 MB downloading on dial-up in 4 days
[03:26:16] <swolchok> TheSHAD0W: you see the talk about Vuze DHT wire protocol?
[03:26:19] <MobileDe> ah yes.. redhat 6.2... I remember that
[03:26:22] <TheSHAD0W> No.
[03:26:48] <swolchok> TheSHAD0W: shortly after your alter ego JudgeSHAD0W logged
[03:26:53] <Switeck> ISPs forced content to the edges of their network because they didn't want "heavy traffic" anywhere.
[03:27:07] <TheSHAD0W> Thanks, I'll check my log.
[03:31:22] <TheSHAD0W> Interesting.
[03:31:36] <TheSHAD0W> What language are you implementing it in, swolchok?
[03:31:50] <swolchok> two impls, C and Python
[03:32:42] <swolchok> http://z.cs.utexas.edu/users/osa/unvanish/papers/vanish-broken.pdf has details scattered throughout
[03:32:51] <swolchok> I wish we'd change that PDF name thouhg
[03:35:36] <The_8472> oh, yeah. i sampled the mainline DHT a while ago for the most popular IDs of get_peers requests i'm seeing
[03:36:00] <The_8472> the top 3 things were all japanese porn, mostly downloaded within asia ^^
[03:36:17] <The_8472> at least as far as i could tell from the geoip data
[03:36:26] <The_8472> though i merely sampled what i saw based on my own node-id
[03:36:34] <The_8472> not statistically representative, but still funny
[03:37:55] <Nolar> heh
[03:38:36] <swolchok> alus: how am I supposed to unpack data requests for BEP 0009? there's no indication of the offset of the data vs. the bencoded dictionary
[03:38:56] <swolchok> ...never mind, figured it out in the act of asking
[03:41:03] <The_8472> the data-message is horribly misdesigned imo
[03:41:14] *** bittwist has quit IRC
[03:41:15] <The_8472> they payload just could have been embedded in the bencoded part too
[03:43:35] <swolchok> yeah, I still don't have a palatable way of doing it; kind of a pain
[03:43:51] <The_8472> hrm?
[03:43:53] *** GTHK has quit IRC
[03:44:13] <swolchok> well, you can guess that the message is not the last piece if the length is over 16k, slice off the last 16k, and try to bdecode the rest
[03:44:44] <The_8472> you get the size from the other peer's LTEP handshake
[03:44:54] <The_8472> just read out their metadata_size field
[03:45:04] <The_8472> that way you have the length
[03:45:07] <swolchok> right, but that doesn't tell you whether the piece you're trying to decode is the last one or not
[03:45:13] <swolchok> you can't tell that until you've bdecoded the message
[03:45:26] <swolchok> (the spec doesn't say that pieces are sent in order)
[03:45:27] <The_8472> huh? you request 16KiB chunks one by one
[03:45:28] <The_8472> do the math
[03:45:37] <swolchok> oh, duh
[03:45:43] <The_8472> you request the piece, including piece number
[03:45:53] <The_8472> piece number = 16KiB offsets
[03:46:01] <swolchok> yup, got it
[03:46:02] <The_8472> it's all there
[03:46:11] <swolchok> clearly I shouldn't be coding
[03:47:17] <The_8472> in case you're drunk try to keep the blood alcohol level at the ballmer peak
[03:47:38] <swolchok> not drunk, just sleep-deprived
[03:48:45] <The_8472> well, in that case... start to program in haskell or prolog once the delusions set in.
[03:51:13] *** ajaya has quit IRC
[03:52:44] <alus> The_8472: we decided not to embed the bencoded part on purpose
[03:53:01] <alus> The_8472: what else don't you like about the data message?
[03:53:08] <The_8472> ... which purpose would that be?
[03:53:30] <swolchok> bet the answer is that it's marginally more efficient
[03:53:37] <The_8472> how so?
[03:53:43] <alus> because that doesn't help anything.
[03:53:53] <alus> and yes, it's easier to split if it's just bytes
[03:54:13] <The_8472> uhm... you don't have a bdecoder that does the splitting for you?
[03:54:22] <swolchok> embedding the piece in the bencoded dict would allow people to read the message with just a bdecode
[03:54:29] <The_8472> exactly
[03:54:32] <alus> and what's the benefit in that?
[03:54:37] <The_8472> simplicity
[03:54:38] <swolchok> it's very easy to implement!
[03:54:50] <alus> and how would you decide where to split?
[03:55:05] <The_8472> you don't split. the data is part of the bencoded part
[03:55:06] <swolchok> split what? feed the packet to bdecode and that's the piece
[03:55:18] <alus> what if it's a several megabyte infodict?
[03:55:18] <swolchok> you can embed arbitrary data in bencoded things
[03:55:23] <The_8472> you extract it from your dictionary/associative array/whatever
[03:55:33] <The_8472> alus, those are 16KiB pieces
[03:55:46] <The_8472> but yes, bencoding imposes no size limit
[03:55:54] <alus> yes. how do you decide which parts of the infodict to send with each piece?
[03:56:06] <The_8472> huh?
[03:56:06] <swolchok> that's orthogonal to how you encode the piece
[03:56:13] <swolchok> er, encode the data messages
[03:56:16] <The_8472> yeah
[03:56:24] <swolchok> forget it, I'm giving up for tonight and going bowling
[03:57:34] * The_8472 still can't see why you would concat binary data after a bencoded dict instead of putting it into the dict itself. especially since the bdecoder does all the decoding with offsets and so on for you
[03:58:23] <alus> oh, I see what you don't like now
[03:59:12] <alus> basically, appending the extra 'e' is lame
[03:59:23] <The_8472> uhm... extra e?
[03:59:26] <alus> there's no need for it - the message is already length prefixed
[03:59:49] <alus> if it was bencoded, there would be an 'e' to end the dict at the end of the message
[04:00:32] *** The_8472 has quit IRC
[04:00:53] *** wadim has joined #bittorrent
[04:00:55] *** wadim is now known as The_8472
[04:01:05] <alus> The_8472: if it was bencoded, there would be an 'e' to end the dict at the end of the message
[04:01:30] <The_8472> don't tell me you're encoding those messages manually ^^
[04:01:31] <alus> The_8472: instead, I can just write the bencoded dict with info first, then the actual data second
[04:01:32] <The_8472> the bencoder would do that for you
[04:01:52] <alus> yes, and allocate a 16kB chunk of memory to do so
[04:01:54] <alus> for what?
[04:02:06] <The_8472> use a pointer?
[04:02:12] <The_8472> if you're concerned about that
[04:02:39] <alus> there's just no need to put it in the dict
[04:02:44] <alus> it's a known length
[04:02:55] <The_8472> there's no need to put it behind the dict either
[04:03:10] <alus> BT messages don't use bencode at all. you're lucky the intro to the message is a dict, so things can be added later :P
[04:03:24] <The_8472> LTEP handshake is bencoded. completely
[04:03:36] <alus> yes, but it's not for bulk data transfer
[04:03:41] <The_8472> which makes it elegant and simple to handle
[04:04:04] <alus> think http with bencoded headers
[04:04:10] <The_8472> welll... i don't consider that bulk data
[04:04:23] <alus> it's 16kB, same as a BT chunk
[04:04:27] <The_8472> but fine, argueing won't lead to anything
[04:04:30] <alus> indeed
[04:07:17] <The_8472> still, i think in protocols we should either use bencoding/decoding for everything or we can just do regular binary data formats
[04:07:27] <The_8472> if you have to do things at known offsets anyway
[04:07:48] <The_8472> you can just add 4 bytes index, 8 bytes length, N bytes data
[04:07:51] <The_8472> or something like that
[04:08:00] <The_8472> mixing things just lacks... elegance
[04:10:35] *** goussx has quit IRC
[04:16:27] *** GTHK has joined #bittorrent
[04:27:14] *** GTHK has quit IRC
[04:28:29] *** GTHK has joined #bittorrent
[04:31:48] <TheSHAD0W> *yawn*
[04:34:43] *** bittwist has joined #BitTorrent
[04:36:32] *** GTHKn has quit IRC
[04:39:34] <TheSHAD0W> Completely offtopic, but...
[04:39:35] <TheSHAD0W> http://mrc.org/press/releases/2009/20091204124643.aspx
[04:40:27] <The_8472> load, it does not
[04:40:56] <TheSHAD0W> Try, try again...
[04:41:48] <The_8472> nope
[04:42:26] <TheSHAD0W> Okay.
[04:42:43] <TheSHAD0W> You've heard of the "Climategate" thing, right?
[04:42:49] <The_8472> yes
[04:43:02] <TheSHAD0W> Well, it broke 14 days ago...
[04:43:25] <TheSHAD0W> And NBC, ABC and CBS haven't said a peep about it in their morning or evening news segments.
[04:43:38] <The_8472> yes, and?
[04:43:53] <TheSHAD0W> That's it.
[04:44:26] <The_8472> and someobody needs a press release to state that?
[04:44:33] * TheSHAD0W shrugs
[04:44:48] <TheSHAD0W> The major news organizations are ignoring an interesting and significant story.
[04:45:06] <The_8472> interesting? yes. significant? how so
[04:46:10] <TheSHAD0W> It's significant that climate data has been tweaked in undocumented and suspicious ways while the original raw data was discarded.
[04:46:19] <alus> news flash! you get yours news from a source which is not one of these three big networks! the nerve of those people.
[04:46:52] <TheSHAD0W> alus: There are a hell of a lot of people in the US whose only news source is those three.
[04:47:09] <alus> mmhm. and 50% of the nation votes republican
[04:47:53] <TheSHAD0W> s/republican/neocon/
[04:47:54] <TheSHAD0W> :-P
[04:47:57] <The_8472> TheSHAD0W, that does barely scrape the surface of all the evidence we have for antropomorphic climate change. and their datakeeping is probably still better than the audit trails of... big oil
[04:48:22] <The_8472> soooo... i don't see the point beyond the fact that some scientists aren't brilliant, shining examples of ethics
[04:48:58] <alus> (and isn't it neat that science gets done anyway?)
[04:49:00] <The_8472> also, turing was gay
[04:49:16] <The_8472> (which was illegal back then)
[04:49:24] <The_8472> we're still using computers
[04:49:27] <TheSHAD0W> Yeah, well, I keep seeing evidence of Hegelian-based consensus shaping behind "global warming".
[04:50:48] <The_8472> the rise of CO2 in the atmosphere is a known fact, verified by many independent sources
[04:51:11] <The_8472> that CO2 is a greenhouse gas and what greenhouse gases are... is questioned by nobody
[04:51:18] <TheSHAD0W> Yes, and it's also a fact, but not mentioned much, that CO2 really isn't a huge factor in greenhouse warming.
[04:51:34] <TheSHAD0W> Water vapor is much more significant.
[04:51:40] <The_8472> omg
[04:51:54] <The_8472> you're parroting the anti-global warming people's arguments
[04:52:03] <The_8472> good job being spoonfed
[04:52:32] *** goussx has joined #bittorrent
[04:52:35] <The_8472> the simple counterargument is: water vapor cycles through the atmosphere within days, thus is mainly driven by other factors... such as ocean temperatures
[04:52:45] <The_8472> while CO2 remains there for centuries
[04:53:39] *** bt42 has quit IRC
[04:53:51] <The_8472> there are many many superficailly correct looking arguments against climate change, but most of them have been refuted quite profoundly
[04:55:19] <alus> The_8472: which ones haven't?
[04:56:30] <The_8472> those that stab at currently unknown things. but then they don't really have any better data on their own
[04:56:41] <TheSHAD0W> Um.
[04:57:18] <TheSHAD0W> CO2 remains in the atmosphere for centuries, at least unless plants/clathrates absorb it, 'tis true.
[04:57:34] *** Miller` has joined #bittorrent
[04:58:06] <The_8472> ... noo... even with plants absorbing it
[04:58:19] <TheSHAD0W> But when the natural fluctuation of water vapor in the atmosphere results in a change in the greenhouse effect which is several times the ENTIRE greenhouse effect of CO2 in the atmosphere...
[04:58:29] <The_8472> if we stopped all co2 emissions right now then it would still take a century to get to pre-industrial levels
[04:58:48] <The_8472> TheSHAD0W, positive feedback loops...
[04:59:01] <The_8472> CO2 warming -> more water vapor -> CO2 warming gets amplified
[04:59:36] <TheSHAD0W> Again, the water vapor fluctuation is much more significant than the CO2, any feedback loop would be tripped by the change in water vapor.
[04:59:57] <The_8472> the thing is that the effect of water in the atmosphere is instable and can even counterbalance itself (some types of clouds can reflect sunlight into space), while CO2 effect is constnat and thus drives other effects
[05:00:16] <The_8472> http://arstechnica.com/science/news/2009/11/five-things-you-should-know-about-climate-change.ars
[05:00:28] <The_8472> i'm tired of rehashing the same arguments over and over again
[05:00:45] <K`Tetch> what i want to know is, when was the last time you heard about the ozone layer?
[05:01:02] <The_8472> ask the australians?
[05:01:07] <alus> K`Tetch: right after they realized the hole was no big deal
[05:02:06] <Switeck> so if it's raining (not snowing) more close to the poles...it's a bad sign?
[05:02:31] <The_8472> climate change is not that trivial
[05:02:40] <The_8472> in some regions it can even lead to more rainfall...
[05:02:43] <The_8472> causing floods
[05:02:53] <The_8472> while others are turned into deserts
[05:03:04] <Switeck> El Nino?
[05:03:16] *** GTHKn has joined #bittorrent
[05:03:26] <TheSHAD0W> One thing I can tell you...
[05:03:27] <The_8472> we're in a la nina phase atm
[05:03:42] <Switeck> it's considered part of the cycle
[05:03:43] <TheSHAD0W> It's 26 degrees outside right now, here in the Chihuahuan desert.
[05:03:51] <The_8472> ..........
[05:03:58] <TheSHAD0W> It'll be below 20 by morning.
[05:04:06] <TheSHAD0W> 26 Fahrenheit, not Celsius.
[05:04:07] <The_8472> have you even READ the link i've provided?
[05:04:16] <TheSHAD0W> We don't see those temperatures here this early.
[05:04:22] <TheSHAD0W> Yes, I have.
[05:04:27] <Switeck> Shadow, if there was even slightly more water in the air there...it wouldn't go much below 0
[05:04:28] <The_8472> "This isn't weather forecasting"
[05:04:46] <TheSHAD0W> Switeck: There's a ton of snow on the ground.
[05:05:09] <Switeck> then the winds must be fierce?
[05:05:17] <TheSHAD0W> They're blowing.
[05:05:23] <TheSHAD0W> It's often windy here.
[05:05:41] <The_8472> some regions can even get cooler through global warming. one of the worst case scenarios is a collapse of the gulf stream due to the influx of large amounts of fresh water
[05:06:12] <Switeck> even stranger is land rebound in some areas (such as Greenland) if the ice pack melts
[05:06:12] <The_8472> when that happens scandinavia, europe north of the alpes, britain actually get colder
[05:06:26] <TheSHAD0W> Yeah.
[05:06:31] <Switeck> so ocean levels elsewhere probably rise more to make up for it
[05:06:39] *** GTHKn has quit IRC
[05:06:52] *** GTHKn has joined #bittorrent
[05:07:02] <The_8472> which isn't exactly a good think, scandinavia is only more habitable than siberia due to the gulf stream
[05:07:07] <The_8472> *good thing
[05:07:14] <TheSHAD0W> Lemme tell you what my biggest problem with the global warming meme is.
[05:07:18] <The_8472> while the area around the mediterranian sea desertifies
[05:07:22] <Switeck> they better start adapting...
[05:07:52] <The_8472> TheSHAD0W, lack of proof for the opposite?
[05:07:52] <Switeck> global warming or not, freak cold spells will still happen very irregularly.
[05:08:11] <Switeck> and they'll be as cold or colder than Siberia potentially for months.
[05:08:36] <TheSHAD0W> We've been living in a fairly nice climate for the past few centuries, but this planet's climate has historically been much harsher.  We've been spoiled, and don't expect any change, and the idea of our actions changing the climate is anathema.
[05:08:53] <The_8472> ...
[05:08:55] <The_8472> so?
[05:09:02] <Switeck> so we're screwed
[05:09:08] <TheSHAD0W> But it may, and I think it is, changing DESPITE us, and crippling our industry in trying to limit carbon emissions is stupid.
[05:09:33] <The_8472> uhm, how is it crippling "our industry!
[05:09:35] <The_8472> "
[05:09:36] <TheSHAD0W> I don't mind cutting our dependence on oil, and I think we need to go nuclear.
[05:09:59] <Switeck> we're 1 super volcano eruption, 1 asteriod strike away...from not needing to worry about global warming
[05:10:00] <Switeck> we need to go nuclear, solar, hydro, wind...
[05:10:10] <Switeck> because energy consumption is huge
[05:10:23] <TheSHAD0W> But the people who are behind the carbon dioxide limits don't want nuclear either.
[05:10:56] <The_8472> i'm for carbon limits and i'm also for fusion research
[05:11:00] <TheSHAD0W> Switeck: Excepting for hydro we're already exploiting, the other alternatives aside from nuclear aren't cost-effective.  (That may change with solar soon.)
[05:11:19] <Switeck> cost effective is relative
[05:11:22] <TheSHAD0W> I'm not talking fusion, I'm talking old-fashioned fission.
[05:11:44] <Switeck> any more red tape and fission isn't cost effective in many nations
[05:11:46] <The_8472> fission is not cost-effective at all, most of the costs are externalized onto the government and into the future. just like carbon emissions
[05:12:07] <TheSHAD0W> That's because of government regulations, not because of the fission tech itself.
[05:12:24] <Switeck> Nor do we really know if we can keep all the fission by-products out of groundwater for 100's of years.
[05:12:26] <The_8472> uhm. no. it's because that stuff has to be stored safely.
[05:12:48] <TheSHAD0W> A lot less of it would have to be stored if we were allowed to reprocess it.
[05:12:49] <The_8472> the necesary facilities have to be maintained for centuries
[05:12:59] <The_8472> we are doing reprocessing here
[05:13:05] <The_8472> which causes even more waste
[05:13:13] <The_8472> expecially highly radioactive plutonium waste
[05:13:17] <TheSHAD0W> ...
[05:13:23] <TheSHAD0W> Plutonium is fuel!
[05:13:31] <The_8472> not all of it
[05:13:31] <TheSHAD0W> Not waste!
[05:13:46] <TheSHAD0W> You mean waste FROM Plutonium?
[05:13:47] <The_8472> some isotopes aren't suited to current reactor designs
[05:14:05] <TheSHAD0W> There's only one isotope of Plutonium I'm familiar with.
[05:14:12] <Switeck> even in breeder reactors, it's probably a crapshoot for what you get.
[05:14:44] <Switeck> there are probably 5-10 Plutonium isotopes...with only 3 having half-lives over 1 year.
[05:14:54] * TheSHAD0W researches
[05:15:37] <Switeck> what scares me about fusion is all the neutron bombardment, since it's only charged particle containment in designs.
[05:15:41] <TheSHAD0W> The worst of the nuclear waste burns itself out pretty quickly.  It also releases heat all by itself, which can be utilized if planned properly.
[05:15:50] <The_8472> issues with fission: uranium mining is even dirtier than brown coal mining, waste has to be stored for centuries, fuel is actually quite limited if you don't use breeder reactors, in the event of a leak (which is bound to happen eventually... since there is lots of TIME involved) are huge
[05:16:14] <Switeck> as opposed to needing how much coal?
[05:16:19] <The_8472> just like burning coal is cheap now and was even cheaper during the industrial revolution. the effects of global warming? we're only starting to see them now
[05:16:22] <The_8472> externalized costs...
[05:16:47] <Switeck> sulfur and other contaminates in coal are getting us NOW
[05:16:49] <The_8472> <TheSHAD0W> The worst of the nuclear waste burns itself out pretty quickly. <- halflifes of 100k+ years is quickly?
[05:16:59] <TheSHAD0W> But that's not the worst of it.
[05:17:10] <Switeck> if it's >100k years half-life, it is likely not terribly radioactive.
[05:17:11] <TheSHAD0W> If it has a half-life of 100K years it doesn't put out much radiation.
[05:17:18] <Switeck> but it's probably toxic chemically
[05:17:25] <Switeck> think lead on steroids toxic
[05:17:29] <The_8472> Switeck, enough to induce cancer if it enter an organism
[05:17:41] <The_8472> *enters
[05:18:03] <Switeck> that's just it...how much?
[05:18:11] <The_8472> even u-238 which has halflives of millions of years can induce cancer
[05:18:25] <Switeck> almost all of us are already exposed to lots of unknowns
[05:18:31] <The_8472> bah, my spelling sucks today
[05:18:59] <Switeck> 8472, the issue of whether Uranium causes cancer mainly due to radiation or chemical toxicity...my money's on chemical toxicity
[05:19:41] <Switeck> U-238's half life is about a billion years
[05:19:41] <Switeck> that's why there's any left to MINE in the first palce
[05:19:46] <The_8472> just look at tschernobyl. it's still so radioactive that you have to wear masks in the area, if you would inhale the dust for a while you are more likely to get lung cancer than someone smoking for decades
[05:20:22] <The_8472> anyway. fusion is the only way to go if you want to go nuclear
[05:20:33] *** GTHK has quit IRC
[05:20:33] <TheSHAD0W> Do you think they're going to build any new carbon-block reactors?
[05:20:44] <TheSHAD0W> Fusion has its own issues.
[05:20:44] <Switeck> I hope not
[05:20:58] <The_8472> a lot less waste, mostly short-lived waste, no issues with fuel supply, ...
[05:21:02] <TheSHAD0W> I think SPS is the best long-term plan...
[05:21:07] <Switeck> Fusion almost needs U-238 walls to block some of the neutrons
[05:21:09] <TheSHAD0W> But at least for now, we need nuclear.
[05:21:35] <TheSHAD0W> Solar power satellites.
[05:21:37] <The_8472> Switeck, nah. they don't block the neutrons. they just let materials get radioactive with known short decay chains
[05:22:13] *** bt42 has joined #BitTorrent
[05:22:26] <The_8472> satellites... how do you get them up there? rockets... rockets deployed on an industrial scale instead of just for space exploration and a few puny comm sats... lots of exhaust blown into the atmosphere
[05:22:50] <TheSHAD0W> How do you get them up there?  You don't, you build them up there.
[05:22:56] <The_8472> from what?
[05:22:58] <Switeck> out of what?
[05:23:00] <TheSHAD0W> As I said, long-term planning.
[05:23:08] <TheSHAD0W> Asteroids.
[05:23:11] <The_8472> time which we do not have
[05:23:11] <Switeck> energy-to-mass conversion?
[05:23:25] <The_8472> lol
[05:23:29] <Switeck> chasing down asteroids is very energy intensive
[05:23:31] <TheSHAD0W> Nuclear power can keep us going for hundreds of years.
[05:23:43] <TheSHAD0W> Switeck: That's what sails and tethers are for.
[05:24:06] <Switeck> sure, if you want to move them nearby in 100's of years
[05:24:24] *** GTHKn has quit IRC
[05:24:28] <The_8472> actually, with ion drives you can get there in a few years at a reasonable power envelope
[05:24:44] *** GTHK has joined #bittorrent
[05:24:57] <The_8472> but you basically need a solar fab on that asteroid.... not just that. also mineral refining and everything
[05:25:01] <The_8472> that's not going to happen
[05:25:02] <Switeck> only ion drives I've seen don't have a KG of thrust
[05:25:13] <The_8472> you don't need that
[05:25:21] <The_8472> they operate contiously. for days
[05:25:25] <TheSHAD0W> Switeck: You don't need to move million ton blocks, there are plenty of smaller ones, and lots are already outside of the belt.
[05:25:26] <Switeck> going to need a lot for a 1 km asteroid
[05:25:28] <The_8472> whereas rockets burn out in seconds to minutes
[05:25:38] <TheSHAD0W> 1km??
[05:25:42] <TheSHAD0W> What about 50m?
[05:25:56] <Switeck> actually, still going to need a lot or a long time
[05:25:57] <TheSHAD0W> How much silicon is in a 50m diameter rock?
[05:26:06] <Switeck> depends on the rock
[05:26:24] <TheSHAD0W> If it's not mostly silicon, it's probably even more useful.  :-)
[05:26:45] <Switeck> iron or rocky asteroids have far less than dead comet cores
[05:27:22] <The_8472> anyway, if you want to get something into space... build a space elevator. before that you can't really build large-scale structures up there at reasonable prices
[05:27:32] <The_8472> solar cells might actually work if you can build them very very thin
[05:27:46] 
[05:28:28] <The_8472> but that doesn't cover the lasers or microwave dishes to transmit the power down here
[05:29:01] <TheSHAD0W> http://www.gizmag.com/solar-power-space-satellite/11064/
[05:29:52] <TheSHAD0W> I think that to practically power Earth from space, the collectors will have to be manufactured in space.
[05:30:12] <TheSHAD0W> I'm a bit more optimistic about manufacturing tech than you guys are.
[05:31:17] <Switeck> I read machine design, popular mechanics, and poplar science for years
[05:31:33] <Switeck> that's in order of sliding scale of ability versus optimism
[05:31:42] <The_8472> we neither have the tech nor the resources in space necessary to produce anything high-tech. and we won't in the next few decades
[05:32:08] <TheSHAD0W> I think you may be surprised.
[05:32:19] <TheSHAD0W> Consider 3D printers, for instance.
[05:32:21] <The_8472> the biggest infrastructure we have in space is the ISS. they can't even bake a cake up there.
[05:33:05] <The_8472> (unless testing a 0g oven is a current experiment)
[05:33:36] <The_8472> i know nasa was testing a 0g oven in one of their parabolic flights a few years back
[05:33:42] *** Miller` has quit IRC
[05:33:44] <Switeck> well, if they have a microwave...at least their popcorn probably cooks evenly XD
[05:35:03] <The_8472> anyway, current projections concerning a) oil reserves b) climate change mean we can't wait until the end of the century until such technologies might be viable
[05:35:28] <The_8472> fusion may be viable by 2050, ground based solar arrays are viable since the last decade
[05:36:38] <The_8472> solar satellites may or may not work in the next few decades
[05:36:45] <TheSHAD0W> I'm still waiting for Nanosolar to start producing.
[05:36:54] * TheSHAD0W lives in a prime solar area
[05:37:11] <Switeck> ground based solar has been viable small-scale for a long time
[05:37:19] <Switeck> but only in some areas
[05:37:21] <TheSHAD0W> It's still kinda expensive.
[05:37:23] <The_8472> deserts aren't all that good, dust and all
[05:37:30] <The_8472> expensive is just an issue of scaling
[05:37:37] <Switeck> mirrors at black water tower
[05:37:49] <The_8472> build one in the size of the city and things get a lot cheaper
[05:37:50] <Switeck> beats solar cells till recently
[05:38:00] <TheSHAD0W> Nanosolar has been promising solar cells at $1/W for a while now.
[05:38:11] <TheSHAD0W> I think that, at that price, they're truly worthwhile.
[05:38:37] <Switeck> I don't want promises, I want now
[05:38:43] <The_8472> anyway, i don't see why money should be an issue
[05:38:56] <The_8472> the US throws billions at non-sene projects every year
[05:38:59] <Switeck> we'll need to build something viable with what we have large-scale
[05:39:00] <The_8472> *sense
[05:39:06] <TheSHAD0W> Yeah, and that's stupid too.
[05:39:15] <The_8472> they could throw that money at solar cells instead and be done with it
[05:39:27] <Switeck> weapons research is more fun XD
[05:39:43] <The_8472> well, solar powered lasers!
[05:39:51] <Switeck> the irony is the failed weapons (lasers for instance) often get used in other ways...
[05:39:53] *** yehaT has joined #bittorrent
[05:40:01] * The_8472 imagines a solar cell covered aircraft carrier
[05:40:02] *** GTHKn has joined #bittorrent
[05:40:14] <The_8472> "sorry sir, we can't fire atm. clouds overhead"
[05:40:15] <Switeck> solar cell covered oil tanker XD
[05:40:30] <Switeck> huge area, won't use fuel to move itself
[05:40:40] *** bittwist has quit IRC
[05:40:54] <Switeck> could even crack heavy crude into lighter stuff as it travels
[05:41:12] <The_8472> don't raffinery ships already exist?
[05:41:20] <Switeck> yep
[05:42:06] <yehaT> Hey. Does anyone know this about utorrent: If there's a file in the torrent that's first downloaded normally, but is then changed to "skip", stopping the download of that single file while rest of the torrent is still active, do the blocks or pieces that are in the "skip" zone still keep getting uploaded when requested by other peers?
[05:42:13] <TheSHAD0W> Anyway, if you think coal and nuclear produce toxic waste, you should see how much solar cell production makes...
[05:42:37] <Switeck> skip does nothing about what's uploaded.
[05:42:41] <The_8472> TheSHAD0W, i know. but they're working on organic ones
[05:42:47] <Switeck> any completed blocks are available for uploading in uTorrent
[05:42:55] <yehaT> Alright thanks vm
[05:43:03] <The_8472> organic as in polymers, produced from oil ^^
[05:43:11] <The_8472> oh the irony
[05:43:27] <TheSHAD0W> You know, I use some renewable energy to heat my home...
[05:43:31] <TheSHAD0W> It's called a wood stove.
[05:43:32] <TheSHAD0W> ^__^
[05:43:37] <Switeck> I guess that loosely falls under the concept of "organic"
[05:43:43] <The_8472> now, think about that wood is hauled towards your home!
[05:44:08] <TheSHAD0W> True...
[05:44:23] * TheSHAD0W modifies his truck to run on wood alcohol
[05:44:24] <The_8472> Switeck, as in organic chemistry. non-trivial carbon compounds
[05:44:26] <TheSHAD0W> ^__^
[05:44:56] <TheSHAD0W> <The_8472> organic as in polymers, produced from oil ^^ -- at least it isn't going into the atmosphere.
[05:45:48] <TheSHAD0W> Speaking of renewable energy...
[05:45:55] * TheSHAD0W throws some more logs into the stove
[05:46:19] <The_8472> and i think trying to heat everything with wood would cause quite some deforestation
[05:46:25] <The_8472> not exactly a good solution either
[05:47:06] *** GTHKn has quit IRC
[05:48:33] *** GTHKn has joined #bittorrent
[05:48:45] * The_8472 dons his lead cape, places a farnsworth-hirsch fusor in the channel and turns it on
[05:53:21] *** Switeck has quit IRC
[05:53:55] *** Switeck has joined #bittorrent
[05:55:59] <yehaT> Soo what does this mean Error: ??, log: JS Syntax error. Bug in utorrent webui? I guess i'll have to go and see the actual client end if it has same..
[05:56:52] *** GTHK has quit IRC
[05:58:25] <TheSHAD0W> The_8472: I'm burning pecan wood, which comes from orchards; the trees have fairly short lifespans.
[05:58:50] * TheSHAD0W thinks research into faster growing trees would be a good idea
[05:58:59] <The_8472> ok, so we cut down woods to plant woods to burn them
[05:59:07] <The_8472> sounds perfectly reasonable
[05:59:24] <The_8472> just like making ethanol from corn....
[05:59:28] <The_8472> to fuel cars
[05:59:41] <TheSHAD0W> Better, I'm using a byproduct of production for another product.
[05:59:55] <The_8472> i doubt it would scale
[05:59:55] <TheSHAD0W> Ethanol isn't a great idea IMO.
[06:00:02] <TheSHAD0W> Uses too much energy to make the energy.
[06:00:08] *** GTHK has joined #bittorrent
[06:00:09] <TheSHAD0W> Well.
[06:00:22] <TheSHAD0W> The problem with plants is they're <1% efficient.
[06:00:44] <The_8472> in case you didn't get the sarcasm, i think processing corn into biofuel is a horrible idea
[06:00:45] <TheSHAD0W> Some of the newly developed algae is better.
[06:00:49] <TheSHAD0W> Hehe.
[06:00:50] <TheSHAD0W> Yup.
[06:01:12] <Switeck> corn into ethanol while people starve to death
[06:01:19] <TheSHAD0W> No...
[06:01:24] <TheSHAD0W> It's not that sort of corn.
[06:01:27] <Switeck> that's what we have now
[06:01:46] <TheSHAD0W> The problem is, it takes so much effort to irrigate and process the corn that it's stupid.
[06:01:55] <Switeck> of course
[06:02:09] <TheSHAD0W> Without subsidies, no one would be doing it, it's not cost-effective.
[06:02:36] <The_8472> not to mention that the plants spent most of their energy on building up cellulose...
[06:02:46] <TheSHAD0W> http://www.wnd.com/images/whgatecrashers.jpg
[06:02:51] <The_8472> there are some projects to break down and ferment cellulose
[06:02:55] <Switeck> but even if it's the wrong type of corn to be fit to eat...that represents farmland that's limited.
[06:03:02] <K`Tetch> bamboo!
[06:03:03] <The_8472> but they haven't reached industrial scale yet
[06:03:11] <TheSHAD0W> Why ferment it when you can use destructive distillation?
[06:03:36] <The_8472> you won't get ethanol or anthing useful that way
[06:03:56] <The_8472> breaking down cellulose yields some form of sugars
[06:04:02] <The_8472> so you ferment it
[06:04:27] <TheSHAD0W> Fermentation means using up some of the energy you've gathered to feed the yeasts.
[06:04:36] <The_8472> not to mention that yeasts are quite efficient. breaking down the cellulose ezymatically is the hard part
[06:04:45] <TheSHAD0W> Destructive distillation gives you methanol, which is a decent fuel.
[06:04:55] <The_8472> needs tons of energy too
[06:05:06] <TheSHAD0W> Some, yes.
[06:05:40] <TheSHAD0W> It also produces more complex hydrocarbons, which can be used to make plastics instead of oil.
[06:06:12] <The_8472> i've heard some company doing that with old frying fat and roadkill
[06:06:31] <The_8472> i guess fatty acids are better for that process
[06:12:22] *** GTHK has quit IRC
[06:12:51] *** GTHK has joined #bittorrent
[06:13:38] *** GTHK has quit IRC
[06:14:12] *** GTHK has joined #bittorrent
[06:14:23] *** GTHKn has quit IRC
[06:19:09] *** GTHKn has joined #bittorrent
[06:22:07] *** GTHK has quit IRC
[06:52:21] *** GTHKn has quit IRC
[06:52:45] *** GTHKn has joined #bittorrent
[06:59:27] *** MassaRoddel has quit IRC
[07:32:10] *** GTHK has joined #bittorrent
[07:35:06] *** hydri_ has joined #bittorrent
[07:37:01] *** The_8472 has quit IRC
[07:37:27] *** The_8472 has joined #bittorrent
[07:44:56] <swolchok> while we're at it we can transfer files by engraving them into the wood
[07:47:53] *** GTHKn has quit IRC
[07:52:06] <Gottaname> I thought marble was the accepted method?
[07:52:16] <Gottaname> >:(
[07:52:35] <swolchok> guess we need a BEP for this
[07:54:29] *** hydri has quit IRC
[07:54:29] *** hydri_ is now known as hydri
[08:04:08] *** lxsameer has joined #bittorrent
[08:12:15] <lxsameer> sometimes when i download a some data via torrent it locked in a percentage what should i do?
[08:15:58] *** MassaRoddel has joined #bittorrent
[08:25:41] *** lxsameer has left #bittorrent
[08:30:41] *** GTHKn has joined #bittorrent
[08:35:59] <Switeck> locked on a percentage either means that's all the other peers have, and/or lots of poisoners are present on the torrent
[08:39:28] *** Andrius has joined #bittorrent
[08:46:11] *** GTHK has quit IRC
[08:48:34] *** bittwist has joined #BitTorrent
[08:48:46] *** GTHK has joined #bittorrent
[08:52:34] *** _rafi2_ has joined #bittorrent
[08:55:25] *** _rafi1_ has joined #bittorrent
[08:56:08] *** bt42 has quit IRC
[09:02:00] *** MassaRoddel has quit IRC
[09:02:59] *** The_8472 has quit IRC
[09:04:08] *** The_8472 has joined #bittorrent
[09:07:51] *** GTHKn has quit IRC
[09:08:09] *** GTHKn has joined #bittorrent
[09:09:31] *** GTHK has quit IRC
[09:12:00] *** _rafi2_ has quit IRC
[09:28:01] *** GTHK has joined #bittorrent
[09:45:44] *** GTHKn has quit IRC
[09:46:19] *** GTHKn has joined #bittorrent
[09:50:19] *** burris has quit IRC
[09:53:26] *** GTHKn has quit IRC
[09:53:47] *** GTHK has quit IRC
[09:53:48] *** GTHKn has joined #bittorrent
[10:04:06] *** KyleK_ has joined #bittorrent
[10:24:51] *** The_8472 has quit IRC
[10:26:03] *** The_8472 has joined #bittorrent
[10:28:08] *** GTHK has joined #bittorrent
[10:36:35] *** GTHK has quit IRC
[10:36:47] *** GTHK has joined #bittorrent
[10:38:07] *** GTHK has quit IRC
[10:38:19] *** GTHK has joined #bittorrent
[10:38:22] *** yehaT has quit IRC
[10:44:25] *** GTHK has quit IRC
[10:44:44] *** GTHK has joined #bittorrent
[10:46:26] *** GTHKn has quit IRC
[10:54:00] *** dandon has quit IRC
[10:54:48] *** dandon has joined #bittorrent
[10:57:51] *** GTHK has quit IRC
[11:02:41] *** bittwist has quit IRC
[11:39:35] *** Elrohir has joined #bittorrent
[11:46:53] *** The_8472 has quit IRC
[11:47:14] *** wadim has joined #bittorrent
[11:47:16] *** wadim is now known as The_8472
[12:20:28] *** _rafi1_ is now known as _rafi_
[12:34:02] *** Switeck has quit IRC
[12:39:24] *** ivan` has quit IRC
[12:39:35] *** ivan` has joined #bittorrent
[13:02:44] *** bittwist has joined #BitTorrent
[13:14:42] *** dandon has quit IRC
[13:16:49] *** dandon has joined #bittorrent
[13:34:23] *** bt42 has joined #BitTorrent
[13:54:27] *** bittwist has quit IRC
[14:08:44] *** _rafi_ has quit IRC
[14:31:12] *** erdgeist has joined #bittorrent
[15:01:28] *** bittwist has joined #BitTorrent
[15:09:31] *** bt42 has quit IRC
[15:40:21] *** eightfold has quit IRC
[15:54:38] <dandon> bit thorent
[15:54:46] * dandon is so cool
[16:24:42] *** MobileDe has quit IRC
[16:48:19] *** ProperNoun has quit IRC
[16:52:57] *** burris has joined #bittorrent
[17:12:30] *** The_8472 has quit IRC
[17:12:51] *** wadim has joined #bittorrent
[17:12:53] *** wadim is now known as The_8472
[17:21:50] *** dandon has quit IRC
[17:22:35] *** dandon has joined #bittorrent
[17:26:37] *** bt42 has joined #BitTorrent
[17:44:59] *** bittwist has quit IRC
[17:55:19] *** K`Tetch has quit IRC
[18:01:13] *** Andrius has quit IRC
[18:18:12] *** void^ has joined #bittorrent
[18:22:53] *** goussx_ has joined #bittorrent
[18:38:51] *** goussx has quit IRC
[18:38:52] *** goussx_ is now known as goussx
[18:41:29] *** Elrohir has quit IRC
[18:50:35] *** dandon has quit IRC
[18:51:42] *** dandon has joined #bittorrent
[18:58:18] *** Andrius[] has joined #bittorrent
[18:59:23] *** klapaucjusz has joined #bittorrent
[19:21:56] *** Andrius[] is now known as Andrius
[19:35:26] *** Andrius has quit IRC
[19:44:52] *** bittwist has joined #BitTorrent
[19:46:48] *** Andrius has joined #bittorrent
[19:52:30] *** bt42 has quit IRC
[21:03:58] *** GTHK has joined #bittorrent
[21:09:16] *** GTHK has quit IRC
[22:04:15] *** bt42 has joined #BitTorrent
[22:23:17] *** bittwist has quit IRC
[22:34:45] *** hcs91 has joined #bittorrent
[22:35:18] <hcs91> anyone here got ADSL2+ ?
[22:37:38] <hcs91> is the speed even realistic?
[22:44:31] <hlindhe_> yes
[22:45:03] <hcs91> what sort of rate are we talking about?
[22:46:29] <hlindhe_> i get 16/2, but i am a bit away from the station
[22:47:21] <hcs91> does it max out on USENET?
[22:47:45] <hlindhe_> it does max out on a single tcp stream, so i guess so
[22:48:01] <hcs91> mmmmm tempting
[22:51:24] *** liouxNOT is now known as lioux
[23:29:17] <TheSHAD0W> Wish it were available here.
[23:29:32] <TheSHAD0W> Unfortunately, 6 miles of copper doesn't give a lot of alternatives.
[23:33:27] <hcs91> any news or tornado TheSHAD0W ???
[23:33:58] <TheSHAD0W> Nope.
[23:34:26] <hcs91> that was a good client
[23:34:49] <DWKnight> still works fine
[23:35:40] <hcs91> is there dht support now?
[23:35:52] <DWKnight> not yet
[23:39:23] <hcs91> DWKnight are you on adsl?
[23:40:11] <DWKnight> yes
[23:40:17] <DWKnight> and I set my settings up smart
[23:40:29] <DWKnight> and didn't follow any of the multitude of youtube setup guides
[23:40:44] <DWKnight> of which, at least 90% recommend completely retarded settings
[23:41:06] <hcs91> what setting do you mean?
[23:41:12] <DWKnight> all of the settings
[23:42:15] *** Switeck has joined #bittorrent
[23:42:43] <hcs91> are you talking about port forwarding?
[23:44:55] <DWKnight> no
[23:44:59] <DWKnight> the actual client settings
[23:45:27] <DWKnight> EVERY youtube guide I've seen so far has recommended settings that will make most low-end residential gateways EXPLODE
[23:47:12] <Switeck> they're no good even on 1 gbit/sec lines
[23:47:44] <Switeck> just because a line is a whole lot faster doesn't mean the networking hardware or software using it can handle so many connections :(
[23:49:06] <hcs91> there is no need to change them
[23:50:33] <DWKnight> most clients have their own recommended settings
[23:50:49] <DWKnight> which are FAR more sane than the retards that posted and follow the youtube guides
[23:51:55] <klapaucjusz> Switeck: which setting are you speaking about?
[23:52:01] <klapaucjusz> Number of peers?
[23:52:25] <klapaucjusz> Er, DWKnight.
[23:53:21] <Switeck> even the recommended settings for uTorrent in its Speed Guide CTRL+G is not well-suited for only seeding.
[23:53:22] <DWKnight> any and all client settings they recommend changing





top