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[01:01:38] <swolchok> is there a nice python implementation of BitTorrent? (official BT5 is too crusty for me)
[01:02:36] <DeHackEd> there's bittornado... may or may not fit your needs.
[01:06:19] <swolchok> too crusty
[01:06:25] <swolchok> s/crusty/old
[01:06:47] <DeHackEd> it runs. doesn't eat cpu. doesn't kill babies.
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[01:08:33] <swolchok> doesn't support some newer protocol extensions. basically I want a nice, modern library implementing the protocol in a modular, reusable fashion. apprently I should ask for a pony while I'm at it.
[01:09:19] <TheSHAD0W> A pony would be less expensive.
[01:09:28] <DeHackEd> what protocol extensions? dht is present in bittorrent 5.
[01:10:48] <yehaT> Hey. this is probably in a FAQ somewhere but. How does tracker know how much one has uploaded? I see there are some fake-upload-stat programs around and I'm puzzled how they could possibly work. Don't the trackers check the receiving party for the sending party's upload stat? I guess there's no verification whether the "uploader" actually had any data in first place.
[01:11:19] <DeHackEd> you don't get that level of stats. every client reports amount uploaded, amount downloaded, and amount to download to become a seed (seeds report 0)
[01:11:31] <DeHackEd> yet, you can game it and go undetected if you're smart about it
[01:11:34] <yehaT> I think we're going to see more private ratio based trackers in future and it seems the faking of the stats is a concern..
[01:11:51] <yehaT> it's of course going to be possible but it seems it's too easy with current stuff
[01:11:52] <DeHackEd> welcome to the internet. anything can be faked. anything.
[01:12:31] <yehaT> I'd thought it atleast required 2 ip's for the faking and having some actual data but guess now
[01:12:31] <yehaT> not
[01:12:42] <The_8472> no
[01:12:50] <swolchok> I guess I'd settle for a good implementation of just the BitTorrent peer-to-peer protocol that I can use on its own, without it being full of grubby little hooks into the rest of whatever client it came from.
[01:12:57] <The_8472> the stat reporting is entirely on the client and there is no direct way to verify what they're sending you
[01:13:13] <The_8472> the reporting system is not design to be secure in any way, it's only for statistics gathering
[01:13:16] <DeHackEd> tracker doesn't want to hear about who you're conneted to and how things are going. it's just designed to trade IP addresses. the stats are nice for the tracker owner, but that's all
[01:13:26] <The_8472> private trackers use it in a way it's not meant to
[01:14:07] <swolchok> speaking of private trackers, remind me to patch out private flag in the next patch I submit to Ubuntu for some torrent client and see if they notice
[01:14:23] <DeHackEd> oh joy
[01:14:32] <DeHackEd> just what we need. more client banning
[01:14:54] <swolchok> what are you going to do, ban a major client because somebody has a patched version that disables private flag?
[01:14:57] <swolchok> not gonna work
[01:15:08] <kjetilho> swolchok: why not?
[01:15:20] <The_8472> why put it in ubuntu? just upload some "tweaked, faster, stealthy, whatever" version of any client onto a torrent site with the private flag patched out
[01:15:31] <DeHackEd> you seem to think these private sites give a damn. no.
[01:15:46] <DeHackEd> they're trying to enforce a set of rules on top of a protocol
[01:15:57] <swolchok> because if you follow that policy strictly, I can get you to ban *every* major client in a couple hours' work
[01:16:13] <swolchok> anyway, guess I get to reimplement the BT protocol again
[01:16:41] <The_8472> why not take what already exists and expand on it?
[01:18:21] <swolchok> need just the protocol, just certain parts, want to deviate from the protocol for performance, etc.
[01:18:25] <swolchok> the joys of research
[01:18:52] <The_8472> so far most simulations i've seen of bittorrent fail to take into account key aspects of realworld scenarios
[01:19:02] <swolchok> I'm not simulating.
[01:19:32] <The_8472> then how would you test a deviation from the protocol?
[01:19:50] <DeHackEd> a lan full of traffic shaped vms?
[01:20:21] <The_8472> well, that sounds a lot like a simulation
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[01:20:59] <DeHackEd> didn't say it was brilliant
[01:21:08] <swolchok> forget it, don't want to be more specific
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[02:04:54] <alus> swolchok: there are python bindings for libtorrent (rasterbar)
[02:05:42] <alus> swolchok: also, if you have any questions about the BT5 codebase, I worked on it for a long time. it's not hard to get it running seperately from the GUI
[02:08:30] <swolchok> alus: glancing through API docs for rasterbar, looks like still too high-level (add_torrent does too much)
[02:08:36] <Nolar> <swolchok> remind me to patch out private flag in the next patch I submit to Ubuntu for some torrent client  << uh, which one?
[02:09:22] <swolchok> Nolar: az sounds good, but I'm not really going to because it wouldn't serve any purpose
[02:09:31] <Nolar> good
[02:09:58] <swolchok> maybe I'll write up some patches and make them available on my personal website though just to make the philosophical point. I'll have to think about it.
[02:10:30] <swolchok> I am in no condition to confidently risk making people angry at the moment :)
[02:10:37] <yehaT> I thought about the ratio-faking issue. I actually like it the way it is. Would not be surprised thought if those who particularly cared about the private trackers would end up modifying how things work to suit their need and start requiring specialty client and so on.
[02:11:00] <Nolar> a howto is fine, but doing it by default would be a problem
[02:11:12] <swolchok> yehaT: how would you attest that you were actually running the specialty client and not a cheating hack of said client?
[02:11:29] <yehaT> drm? lol
[02:12:42] <yehaT> I said earlier related to this that I don't think you can prevent cheating just make it more difficult.
[02:13:29] <swolchok> yehaT: http://www.cs.rochester.edu/meetings/sosp2003/papers/p135-cox.pdf may interest you if you like reading academic papers about p2p systems
[02:14:17] <swolchok> read it a long time ago; it's not entirely clear from the abstract how to apply the method to *ahem* the typical bittorrent use case
[02:14:40] <swolchok> in fact, never mind, it mostly applies to peer-to-peer backup
[02:23:20] <yehaT> Not that I want this but just thinking aloud: I think the stat accounting could be modified and weighted differently. Today I get one reports ones own stats and the idea of keeping ratio 1:1 or better is "meg for meg".
[02:24:21] <swolchok> how do you prevent cheating clients from colluding?
[02:24:47] <swolchok> yehaT: http://www.cs.rice.edu/Conferences/IPTPS02/101.pdf
[02:26:44] <yehaT> I wasn't really thinking about cheating clients but using real clients to cheat
[02:27:12] <yehaT> Seems two different problems
[02:27:24] <yehaT> the other is a hard one ;)
[02:30:27] <yehaT> what i had in mind would be made quite futile though with ipv6 if it even worked
[02:31:18] <yehaT> the idea i had was to just make it require more peers you upload to to get the same amount of upload stat as you do today with 1 upload
[02:31:23] <yehaT> or something along those lines
[02:32:10] <yehaT> so if a most consumers can get today easily certain amount of public ip
[02:32:24] <yehaT> then that would set some bound on the amount of cheating
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[02:40:52] <yehaT> though, maybe the tracker could require each client to have unique ipv4 ip, raise the bar for cheaters :)
[02:41:41] <yehaT> anyway i don't really like the whole ratio stuff and fragmentation among various private trackers
[02:43:22] <yehaT> what i like is the idea that torrent would not be unique by the files inside the torrent
[02:44:45] <yehaT> eg: one could upload many different torrents with partially identical content
[02:45:09] <yehaT> and have the clouds be shared between those different torrents for the partially identical data
[02:46:01] <yehaT> hmm guess that may get complicated though ;)
[02:46:10] <yehaT> someday
[02:48:55] <yehaT> essentially it would be nice to be able to create compilations of data and link to the bits in the cloud in some way
[02:49:54] <yehaT> that didn't create a boundary and fragment the user sharing the data to only those compilations they are sharing
[02:50:02] <yehaT> well that's just the same thing stated other way
[02:50:36] <yehaT> but i think maybe the problem could be approached differently if it was thought this way
[02:52:11] <yehaT> i think the outcome is
[02:52:26] <yehaT> that each file has a corresponding .torrent file or something like that
[02:52:38] <yehaT> then theres these .compilation file that link to the .torrent files
[02:53:27] <yehaT> then the tracker could perform some "magic"
[02:53:37] <yehaT> and compare all the hashes in the torrent files
[02:53:53] <yehaT> and build some kind of ".supertorrent" index
[02:54:45] <The_8472> the real problems are at a different level. if you're downloading several files at once you need to find peers who have those files too. you need to talk about different subsets with them but manage them together, not as different torrents
[02:54:45] <yehaT> hmm though not sure that makes any sense if you dont have the data when building that
[02:55:21] <The_8472> since things like unchoking break down between torrents due to differing conditions (e.g. torrents might at different stages of their livecycles, thus one of them would outcompete the others)
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[04:06:39] <alus> swolchok: could you give me an idea of the level of API you want?
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[10:41:43] <burris> which cheap hard drives are the current ones that don't suck as much?
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[14:24:21] <DWKnight> http://creativefreedom.org.nz/forum/topic.php?id=442 little interesting, somewhat relaed
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[17:26:40] <MassaRoddel> hydri, did you merge some stuff from trunk into 015, like allow_i2p_mixed?
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[18:24:07] <TheSHAD0W> http://www.geek.com/articles/news/hollywood-claims-the-pirate-bay-never-shut-down-its-tracker-just-renamed-it-2009123/
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[19:41:03] <pixels> http://u.nu/9u444
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[19:42:12] <The_8472> now why do i get the impression that there might be spam hiding behind that link
[20:00:09] <MassaRoddel> :)
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