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[01:43:46] <Switeck> alus, their testing method is more thorough than most.
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[01:58:36] <Switeck> http://redtape.msnbc.com/2009/12/laptop-computers-examined-by-border-guards-looking-for-pirated-software-ipods-seized-at-airport-security-lines-on-mere-suspi.html
[01:59:08] <Switeck> have an ipod on you in the airport, security there can seize it and search for illegal "stuff"
[01:59:59] <K`Tetch> yeah, thats whats been said about ACTA for a year or two now
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[02:05:50] <alus> Switeck: getting lots of wrong answers is worse than not having any answers
[02:06:34] <Switeck> alus, did you read their testing criteria?
[02:06:40] <Switeck> I think they tried UDP and TCP
[02:06:55] <Switeck> and some of those routers *WILL* crap out at terribly low numbers under a battery of tests
[02:07:12] <Switeck> so if they failed any of them at a low number, that's what they get
[02:10:36] <nGTHK> My wrt54g v6 with dd-wrt got up to ~3500 connections, most from uTorrent. Then it died.
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[02:10:57] <Switeck> The tests were using stock firmware
[02:11:27] <alus> Switeck: that's sort of a pointless number then, if I get real world results which are much higher
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[02:11:55] <alus> Switeck: were I setting up uTorrent, 128 connection would be far too few
[02:12:22] <Switeck> I've got mine set on 99
[02:12:40] <Switeck> most of the time, it has 10-20
[02:13:47] <The_8472> DHT queries count as udp-pseudoconnections
[02:14:00] <The_8472> and you have many of them, since in a single query you can contact hundreds of different IPs
[02:14:44] <The_8472> too high udp-timeouts is what fries most routers when DHT is enabled
[02:14:56] <The_8472> that or high tcp connection churn
[02:23:18] <alus> yes, but there's no way my router is dying at 128 UDP connections
[02:23:50] <The_8472> some do though
[02:24:14] <alus> sure. I'd like real stats on that instead of the lies on that website
[02:25:15] <Switeck> you mean you're going to run some real tests?
[02:25:29] <alus> no. I'm going to avoid that website and not recommend it
[02:26:20] <Switeck> I contend it's probably the truth considering the 1000's of posts I've replied to
[02:26:48] <alus> well my experience says it is not
[02:27:07] <Switeck> eh?
[02:27:16] <alus> I own one of those Airport Extremes
[02:27:19] <Switeck> you're using a stock router that's on the list and...?
[02:27:38] <alus> and their numbers are lies, and even formatted incorrectly in their table
[02:28:21] <Nolar> 200 max listed is completely off
[02:28:39] <Switeck> IDIOTS
[02:28:48] <Switeck> 200 was the highest they tested
[02:28:50] <Nolar> real #s are 10x that at least
[02:28:51] <Switeck> not 200 max
[02:29:03] <Switeck> that any failed *BEFORE* 200 was the point
[02:29:13] <Nolar> 2 ?
[02:29:25] <The_8472> probably due to high churn then instead of number of current connections?
[02:29:34] <Switeck> the tests they did only went up to 200
[02:29:47] <Switeck> if it worked at 200, that's what's written...*NOT* that it can only do 200!
[02:30:16] <Nolar> but 200 is a useless # for bittorrent
[02:30:28] <Switeck> and failing before that is even better?
[02:31:08] <Nolar> no, of course not
[02:31:14] <Switeck> (if you read instead of acting like private tracker admins...you'd know that :P )
[02:31:31] <Nolar> but those #s dont  appear to be even remotely close to what they claim to be measuring
[02:31:43] <Switeck> "The maximum possible number of connections is 200 due to IxChariot license limitations."
[02:32:00] <The_8472> they could write >= instead of =
[02:32:10] <Switeck> true
[02:32:29] <alus> hahah license limitations
[02:32:43] <alus> writing that site was harder than writing a test
[02:32:49] <alus> but then they didn't get the site right either..
[02:33:16] <Nolar> and at the bottom you have 2s, 8s, 10s...
[02:33:40] <Nolar> i've got a couple of those wrt54gs, and i can assure you they do much better than that
[02:33:56] <Switeck> Nolar, which version?
[02:34:04] <Switeck> yes, some failed before 20
[02:34:23] <Nolar> v2 at home, v5 here
[02:34:36] <Nolar> they'll stay alive for light bt loads
[02:35:01] <Switeck> and they don't generate any packet loss or errors before then?
[02:35:02] <Nolar> i run custom firmware for the others
[02:35:14] <alus> packet loss??
[02:35:34] <alus> why in the world would you be able to get packet loss on a non-bottleneck?
[02:35:39] <The_8472> you know, active QoS could actively create packet loss if you go over the configured rates
[02:35:41] <Nolar> anyway, i dont know what that test really is, but it's definitely not table entries
[02:35:53] <Switeck> Nolar, it's definitely not table entries XD
[02:36:36] <Nolar> and for bittorrent workloads, one needs far > 200 to be useful
[02:36:43] <Switeck> no way
[02:36:53] <Switeck> not on *MOST* consumer lines
[02:37:01] <Switeck> 100 or less
[02:37:10] <Nolar> "just buy any device >150 on that list and you'll be fine" is a lie
[02:37:10] <alus> for one torrent
[02:37:16] <Switeck> and technically, to be useful...30
[02:37:18] <The_8472> with DHT you need more
[02:37:44] <Switeck> what about without DHT?
[02:37:54] <The_8472> why even consider that?
[02:38:00] <Switeck> (because I don't know how many connections DHT uses)
[02:38:29] <Switeck> Because if my connection is already maxed out down and up, and I'm getting 100's of incoming connections... WHY do I want DHT too?
[02:38:53] <The_8472> well, that depends on how long the timeouts on udp-pseudoconnections are. with a couple of lookups you can reach a few 100 conntrack entries pretty fast
[02:39:23] <The_8472> add tcp connection churn and half-open connection and you easily get to 500 conntrack entries with even a light bt workload
[02:39:27] <Switeck> and the udp timeouts are typically 5 mins?
[02:39:36] <The_8472> guess so
[02:40:12] <The_8472> tcp conntrack entries persist for a while longer even when the connection is down due to the TIME_WAIT status
[02:40:40] <The_8472> so... with churn you have more entries than actual connections
[02:40:55] <The_8472> significantly more in some scenarios, like stopping one torrent and starting another
[02:42:49] <The_8472> and you want DHT because not every torrent is healthy. and dht is usually always-on
[02:43:07] <The_8472> because users won't just turn it on now and then
[02:43:14] <Switeck> even a healthy torrent can have tracker/s die
[02:43:21] <The_8472> that too
[02:43:38] <The_8472> you answered your own question ^^
[02:43:42] <Switeck> trackers can start giving out bad+firewalled ips as well -- seen that happen
[02:43:53] <Switeck> I've had DHT disabled for about 6 months and don't miss it though
[02:44:23] <Switeck> Won't matter as long as I'm connected to someone else in the swarm that has it on.
[02:44:51] <The_8472> it also helps greatly with merging swarms split across several swarms
[02:45:12] <The_8472> err, trackers
[02:45:19] <Switeck> I've even seen a torrent run >2 weeks with no trackers and no DHT.
[02:45:29] <Switeck> ...and half open connections set to 0.
[02:45:51] <The_8472> that's because your client is caching existing connections. if you actually want to join such a swarm...
[02:46:00] <Switeck> not my client XD
[02:46:08] <Switeck> I was constantly clearing the peer list XD
[02:46:23] <The_8472> then you have a static IP?
[02:46:28] <Switeck> yes
[02:46:33] <Switeck> well, sort-of
[02:46:38] <The_8472> and you were in other people's caches
[02:46:42] <Switeck> it might change once in 6 months
[02:47:02] <Switeck> I could stop the torrent for a week and then they'd almost all die off
[02:47:15] <Switeck> but if just 1 gets my ip again, I'd be back going again
[02:47:33] <Switeck> that torrent never did have more than 40 peers...usually had under 15.
[02:47:33] <The_8472> try starting a new torrent with a dead tracker
[02:47:43] <Switeck> I do it all the time
[02:47:58] <Switeck> TPB trackers being down for good and all
[02:48:02] <The_8472> i don't see how that's supposed to work
[02:48:05] <Switeck> XD
[02:48:13] <Switeck> well, it does
[02:48:33] <Switeck> admittedly, I set my half open connection max above 0 then...
[02:48:46] <Switeck> the >2 week test was just that
[02:50:31] <The_8472> anyway. DHT is on by default, it's useful. thus it should be considered in test scenarios
[02:52:08] <Switeck> I'm not testing, so it's disable.
[02:52:36] <The_8472> yes, and? it runs on 10million+ clients out there. YOUR case does not matter.
[02:52:52] <Switeck> and I'm happy it's enabled by default...saves me the trouble XD
[02:53:34] <The_8472> telling people that routers which can only deal with 100 connections is good enough is misleading
[02:53:47] <Switeck> stop
[02:53:47] <The_8472> because it most likely won't work with default configurations
[02:54:04] <Switeck> I said BitTorrent needs <100 connections to be USEFUL
[02:54:18] <Switeck> I despise crap routers
[02:55:10] <Switeck> "Useful" isn't the same as maximizing yield.
[02:55:19] <The_8472> that's like saying that a fork with one tooth is still useful ^^
[02:55:36] <Switeck> but I'm not in the camp that thinks we should use 1000 connections *JUST BECAUSE WE CAN*!
[02:55:56] <The_8472> connections != conntrack entries
[02:56:16] <Switeck> then you aren't in that camp either
[02:56:31] <Switeck> I can max out my connection's download or upload (often both) with <100 connections.
[02:56:39] <The_8472> if people use 1000 connections on a domestic internet connection they need to be shot
[02:56:44] <Switeck> upload usually maxes out with <10 connections
[02:56:49] <Switeck> you'd run out of bullets
[02:57:06] <The_8472> i'll use a crossbow
[02:57:11] <The_8472> then i can recycle the ammunition
[02:57:49] <Switeck> private tracker seedboxes are getting more common too
[02:58:03] <Switeck> so for some people, you'd need to shoot them multiple times.
[02:58:12] <The_8472> yeah, fine. if you have 100/100 then i won't object to 1k connections
[02:58:32] <Switeck> some of them have fractional 100/100 and/or bursts up to that.
[02:58:35] <The_8472> still more than necessary, but they have the bandwidth to deal with the overhead
[02:58:48] <Switeck> It's not so smart even then...
[02:59:23] <The_8472> we're talking about private tracker users
[02:59:34] <The_8472> smart and private tracker doesn't go in the same sentence
[03:00:22] <Switeck> over 1 million views -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NVq2GkzNrY8&feature=related
[03:00:41] <Switeck> that's for people on home internet connections, according to its maker.
[03:01:06] <Switeck> The later updated video is even "better".
[03:01:43] <The_8472> rofl
[03:02:37] <Switeck> Posters at uTorrent forums regularly show they were using those settings wondering why things messed up.
[03:03:08] <The_8472> well at least he's telling them to forward the port in the new video. that's a plus ^^
[03:03:41] <The_8472> but the rest is still screwed up
[03:03:50] <Switeck> he was saying set OUTGOING port to 50 and incoming port to 45682
[03:04:04] <Switeck> outgoing port 50 is so unusual...blocking it might not hurt.
[03:04:29] <The_8472> ROFL
[03:04:40] <The_8472> if allow_same_ip does what i think it does... lol
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[03:17:06] <TheSHAD0W> Astronomers have discovered a jet of particles leaving the M87 galaxy at 4 to 6 times the speed of light.
[03:17:08] <TheSHAD0W> Er, what?
[03:17:28] <The_8472> apparent speed of light i guess
[03:17:49] <TheSHAD0W> http://www.dailygalaxy.com/my_weblog/2009/12/mystery-jet-from-m87s-supermassive-black-hole-ejecting-at-4-to-6-times-speed-of-light.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed:+TheDailyGalaxyNewsFromPlanetEarthBeyond+(The
[03:18:07] <The_8472> there is some superrelativistic beaming involved with black holes, but that's just an optical illusion or so
[03:19:25] <Switeck> if it's beaming towards us AND emitting at very close to the speed of light, you get superluminal results
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[03:30:35] <Switeck> astronomers have known about such properties for decades.
[03:34:51] <alus> man. that video really makes me want to unplug the settings from the variables
[03:36:54] <Switeck> I estimate only 1 out of 10 people who watch the video actually use those settings
[03:37:00] <Switeck> so only maybe 100-200k
[03:38:09] <Switeck> A lot of BitTorrent settings are "tied together". If one is set hopelessly out of line with the others, it should be ignored
[03:38:11] <alus> that's a good conversion rate
[03:39:04] <Switeck> probably more people who want "more speed" out of uTorrent just use the fastest settings in Speed Guide, xx/100mbit
[03:41:00] <Switeck> More still use no settings at all -- just run with whatever default uTorrent comes with.  And this is probably true for LOTS of BT clients.
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[06:17:32] <ChoyKloun> sometihng that just struck me is that bencode looks a lot like SWIFT messages.. is there some connection with the financial industry? :P
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[06:22:04] <Harold_parker> fuck
[06:22:07] <Harold_parker> now sct is gone
[06:22:11] <Harold_parker> jesus fuck
[06:28:20] <TheSHAD0W> ...
[06:42:55] <ChoyKloun> did i just discover a conspiracy between bittorrent and the secret society that runs world finance ?!?!?!?!??!?!?
[06:42:59] <ChoyKloun> :D
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[06:45:20] <charles> ChoyKloun: one word: plastics.
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[06:46:02] <ChoyKloun> 23?
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[07:26:37] <Harold_parker> anyone tried deluge or qtorrent?
[07:28:32] <Harold_parker> fuckit i'll try deluge
[07:41:47] <Harold_parker> and it is wine
[07:41:51] <Harold_parker> fuck transmission
[07:41:54] <Harold_parker> *win
[08:04:51] <swolchok> is router.bittorrent.com OK to use as a known DHT node for Mainline DHT for bootstrapping purposes? this code is not meant for wide distribution
[08:06:10] <Switeck> Cases like this will save us:  http://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2009/12/side-djs-win-laptops-back
[08:07:07] <ChoyKloun> isnt that kinda the purpose of router.bittorrent.com ?
[08:07:12] <ChoyKloun> its certainly not there for laughs and decoration
[08:08:18] <swolchok> it could have been there for some entirely different kind of routing
[08:10:13] <swolchok> UDP port 6881 isn't the DHT port?
[08:11:37] <ChoyKloun> does dht even have a well-known port number
[08:12:27] <swolchok> probably not, but the bootstrap node should have one
[08:12:45] <swolchok> looks like it is in fact 6881
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[08:43:23] <swolchok> is the python mainline client still available? a nice python implementation of DHT would save me a bunch of work
[08:44:34] <swolchok> never mind, found it
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[08:47:52] <swolchok> makes me want to vomit though, is there a less grody python impl of mainline DHT?
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[23:27:30] <user1> I am using ubuntu and deluge, and cannot make my torrent download, I have the torrent seeding on 2 computere, and try to download the torrent on a 3rd computer
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[23:28:46] <user1> I can only create a .torrent in /home/user1 directory, it seems
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[23:55:40] <user1> bye bye for now
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