November 18, 2009 
1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 | 21 | 22 | 23 | 24 | 25 | 26 | 27 | 28 | 29 | 30
November 18, 2009 NOTICE: This channel is no longer actively logged.
[00:04:53] *** Astro has joined #bittorrent [00:04:57] <Astro> hi [00:05:27] <Astro> I was looking over the DHT BEP and wondered if the peer id really is a good choice as a DHT key [00:05:52] <Astro> peer ids are not evenly distributed because they start with a client tag as the first 2 bytes [00:06:10] <Astro> DHT: http://www.bittorrent.org/beps/bep_0005.html [00:06:51] <Astro> peer ids: http://www.bittorrent.org/beps/bep_0020.html [00:07:08] <Astro> is it assumable that the first 2 bytes are always ascii? [00:07:33] <Andrius> Node IDs are chosen at random from the same 160-bit space as BitTorrent infohashes [00:07:39] <Andrius> from bep 5 [00:07:41] <The_8472> Astro, peer IDs have nothing to do with the DHT [00:07:55] <Astro> hah, dht node id != bittorrent peer id? [00:08:00] <The_8472> correct [00:08:05] <Astro> kk, thx [00:15:14] *** stiv2k has left #bittorrent [00:19:41] <mpl> The_8472: good call about the bitfield, there's something fishy with the length prefix I'm sending, I must have screwed up the conversion to big endian. thx. [00:20:15] <The_8472> the length thingy wasn't me ^^ [00:21:58] <mpl> The_8472: yeah it was kcsomething, but you insisted that I should make sure it's really not the bitfield because I was assuming it was ok for false reasons (thinking the connection was not closed by the other peer). [00:22:21] <The_8472> heh [00:22:44] <mpl> or maybe I extrapolated all that from your rebuke ;) [00:23:05] <mpl> anyway, gonna fix that right away. [00:30:47] *** Andrius has quit IRC [00:38:39] *** stalled has quit IRC [00:39:49] *** stalled has joined #bittorrent [00:52:47] <uriel> K`Tetch: just noticed that the number of trackers didn't get update before the article was posted :) oh well [00:53:13] <uriel> (but my quote did get updated to say over 50 :)) [00:53:30] *** rrr_ has joined #bittorrent [00:54:28] *** bittwist is now known as Republican [00:54:57] *** Republican is now known as bittwist [00:55:38] <The_8472> wohoo, the ipv6 dht is slowly growing [00:57:17] <Astro> any nice tools for raw dht manipulation? [00:57:58] <The_8472> klapaucjusz has written a commandline node that does support some debugging output [00:58:25] <The_8472> not sure what you mean by manipulation though, there's not much you can do [01:00:08] <Astro> actually [01:00:13] <Astro> I could imagine a lot [01:00:31] <Astro> let's see how far I get... [01:00:46] <The_8472> enlighten us [01:01:44] <Astro> if I generate 8 node ids that are near to a specific info_hash, will I be able to block DHT tracking for that torrent? [01:02:09] <Astro> (given that I run 8 DHT nodes) [01:02:31] <chelz> does rtorrent support IPv6 DHT? or what clients do really [01:02:37] <The_8472> most likely, yes [01:02:40] <chelz> i guess utorrent [01:02:53] <The_8472> no, only transmission and azureus support ipv6 dht atm [01:02:56] <The_8472> it's brand new [01:04:34] <chelz> ah [01:08:56] <Switeck> such an attack vector would likely die out instead of becoming a chain reaction on many torrents [01:09:47] <The_8472> hrmm, no, it would be pretty trivial actually [01:10:01] <The_8472> since most implementations do nothing about caching-along-the-path [01:10:33] <The_8472> on the other hand... some implementations are so horribly bad that they store along the path simply because their lookups terminate way too early [01:11:02] <The_8472> so it would most likely take more than 8 nodes to hijack a torrent [01:11:21] <The_8472> but you still could have some significant impact that way [01:11:26] *** KyleK_ has quit IRC [01:25:20] <chelz> ouch [01:29:08] <The_8472> let's say you'd need about 20 nodes for each torrent. to really hijack it you'd also have to stay in people's routing tables and respond to queries [01:29:17] <The_8472> and you'd have to do that for every torrent you want to block [01:30:30] <chelz> i wonder how much bandwidth per torrent that would require [01:30:52] <DeHackEd> well, now that TPB has no tracker, I can't use bittornado anymore. recommendations for a linux user? [01:32:02] <The_8472> are their torrents completely trackerless? [01:32:06] * The_8472 hasn't checked [01:32:30] <chelz> they have openbittorrent in them almost always and it's working fine [01:32:43] <chelz> through that and PEX you should be fine [01:32:46] <DeHackEd> I tried a group yesterday and only had like 20% success rate. [01:32:52] <DeHackEd> bittornado has no pex [01:32:57] <chelz> oh wow [01:33:06] <The_8472> oh, yeah... no pex is going to hurt a lot now [01:33:13] <chelz> well i'm a happy user of rtorrent [01:33:34] <DeHackEd> since I can't get 1 peer, pex doesn't matter. if there's a tracker, I shouldn't need pex [01:33:37] <chelz> it lacks its own set of features, like IPv6 and some interface stuff, but it's fast [01:33:59] <chelz> pex allows you to get peers that aren't registered by trackers for whatever reason [01:34:32] <The_8472> pex matters even with 1 tracker if the torrent is tracked by several [01:35:30] <pvvni> hmm [01:35:40] <pvvni> bluetack is down for ipfilters, anyone know any mirrors? [01:35:50] *** waldorf_ has quit IRC [01:36:21] <The_8472> http://uselessblocklists.whoneedsthemanyway.com maybe? [01:37:36] <chelz> broken link :P [01:39:00] * The_8472 hijacks the dns root servers to redirect all sites to jfgi and smartquestions [01:43:57] <Astro> the bandwidth for such an attack? minimal outgoing and who cares if too much is coming in :) [01:44:50] *** init0_ has joined #bittorrent [01:44:51] <The_8472> if you want to stay in routing tables you better respond to packets too [01:44:59] <The_8472> so, that makes traffic pretty symmetric [01:45:05] <The_8472> maybe 1 : 2 if you do some trickery [01:45:27] <The_8472> but yeah, it's only a few kB/s per node [01:45:36] <Astro> unless I'm getting lazy I'll ask you for some info_hashes to block in a few days ;) [01:45:59] <The_8472> 1 symmetric 10Mbit link, a decent IP range and you can get going with your trapdoor [01:46:13] <Astro> yup [01:46:43] <Astro> I really like the DHT concept and have been craving to implement it for long [01:47:09] <Astro> it fascinates me that it is working out in the wild for bittorrent [01:47:22] <The_8472> the mainline DHT is a pathetic shadow if a fully-featured DHT though [01:48:17] <Astro> yeah, it will hopefully show people they need to start thinking about improvements to this [01:49:07] <The_8472> i love playing the cat and mouse game [01:49:27] <The_8472> i think others won't due to constrained release cycles [01:49:45] <Astro> what r u developing? [01:50:13] <The_8472> well, for the context of this discussion: the mainline dht plugin for azureus [01:51:23] <Astro> hah, plugin architectures! [01:51:35] <Astro> is there an automated update system for azureus? [01:51:42] *** chelz has quit IRC [01:51:50] <The_8472> yes [01:52:03] <Astro> lucky you [01:52:20] <The_8472> except for unofficial builds from the linux distro trolls [01:52:32] <The_8472> they disable autoupdates in most software [01:53:25] <Astro> I use Debian and publish Ruby gems :) [01:53:55] <The_8472> hurr... debian. their releases are moving at glacial speeds :( [01:55:28] <Astro> I'm running testing and haven't had any unpleasant surprises [01:55:36] <uriel> The_8472: glacials run circles around debian's release speed [01:55:54] * uriel runs Sid/Experimental on his servers [01:56:04] <The_8472> Astro, i was referring to stable [01:56:32] <Astro> understood that, you should do like uriel :) [01:56:53] <The_8472> in the past we had to tell users for _months_ to manually download a new release from our site because the version in debian was old and had a bug/lacked a feature we long fixed. [01:57:08] <The_8472> tell users to upgrade to debian experimental? ^^ [01:57:29] <Astro> I know the pain :) [01:58:10] *** init0 has quit IRC [02:00:59] *** thermal has quit IRC [02:38:42] *** Miller` has joined #bittorrent [03:01:11] *** The_8472 has quit IRC [03:59:18] *** chelz has joined #bittorrent [04:01:48] *** cyb2063_ has joined #bittorrent [04:08:31] *** midkniht has joined #bittorrent [04:13:37] *** bittwist has quit IRC [04:16:07] *** cyb2063 has quit IRC [04:42:30] *** init0_ is now known as init0 [04:55:01] *** bittwist has joined #bittorrent [05:01:03] *** Miller` has quit IRC [05:18:58] *** goussx has quit IRC [05:22:20] *** thermal has joined #bittorrent [05:35:19] *** goussx has joined #bittorrent [06:02:26] *** bt42 has joined #bittorrent [06:16:34] *** Switeck has quit IRC [06:17:05] *** Switeck has joined #bittorrent [06:23:00] *** bittwist has quit IRC [07:00:29] *** MassaRoddel has quit IRC [07:13:39] *** razvand has joined #bittorrent [07:17:05] *** MassaRoddel has joined #bittorrent [07:26:40] *** blognewb has joined #bittorrent [07:26:47] <blognewb> hi [07:26:57] <blognewb> is TiVix better than AppleTV? [07:49:18] *** cyb2063_ is now known as cyb2063 [08:30:43] *** Andrius has joined #bittorrent [08:36:15] *** nGTHK has joined #bittorrent [08:36:19] *** GTHK has quit IRC [08:38:11] <chelz> what is the tracker software being used by http://torrent.fedoraproject.org:6969/ and http://torrent.gsfc.nasa.gov/ ? [08:38:30] <chelz> i'm guessing mainline, but i haven't seen anything confirming that [08:48:33] *** medecau has joined #bittorrent [08:56:38] *** echelog has joined #bittorrent [09:00:31] *** nks has joined #bittorrent [09:00:49] *** BentMyWookie has joined #bittorrent [09:01:12] *** ivan` has joined #bittorrent [09:03:55] *** BitTorrentBot has joined #bittorrent [09:03:55] *** Astro has joined #bittorrent [09:05:17] *** hlindhe_ has joined #bittorrent [09:18:44] *** waldorf_ has joined #bittorrent [09:42:13] *** razvand has quit IRC [10:03:51] *** goussx_ has joined #bittorrent [10:05:08] *** goussx_ has quit IRC [10:05:30] *** goussx_ has joined #bittorrent [10:16:55] *** Switeck has quit IRC [10:20:22] *** goussx has quit IRC [10:20:22] *** goussx_ is now known as goussx [10:24:28] *** KyleK_ has joined #bittorrent [10:42:17] *** echelog has joined #bittorrent [10:43:20] *** Mazon has quit IRC [10:45:07] *** cyb2063 has quit IRC [10:52:42] *** cyb2063 has joined #bittorrent [10:54:51] *** Mazon has joined #BitTorrent [11:03:07] *** nGTHK is now known as GTHK [11:04:12] *** razvand has joined #bittorrent [11:11:19] *** ernest0 has quit IRC [12:08:12] *** HandheldPenguin` is now known as HandheldPenguin [12:26:06] *** GTHK has quit IRC [12:49:31] *** medecau has quit IRC [12:54:49] *** forceflow has quit IRC [13:12:12] *** _rafi2_ has joined #bittorrent [13:35:31] *** mxs has quit IRC [13:35:31] *** mxs_ has joined #bittorrent [13:35:50] *** mxs_ is now known as mxs [13:41:11] *** _rafi_ has joined #bittorrent [13:42:30] *** chelz has quit IRC [13:50:24] *** The_8472 has joined #bittorrent [13:59:00] *** _rafi2_ has quit IRC [14:34:28] *** Andrius has quit IRC [14:36:09] *** Andrius has joined #bittorrent [15:24:30] *** _rafi_ has quit IRC [15:32:02] *** razvand has quit IRC [15:43:41] *** cyb2063 has quit IRC [15:46:29] *** thermal has quit IRC [15:54:56] *** Snoopotic has joined #bittorrent [15:55:21] *** Snoopotic has quit IRC [15:58:04] *** Snoopotic has joined #bittorrent [16:12:26] *** waldorf_ has quit IRC [16:33:04] <burris> chelz: both mainline 4.4.0 [16:51:27] *** mxs_ has joined #bittorrent [16:53:01] *** waldorf_ has joined #bittorrent [16:53:19] *** mxs has quit IRC [16:53:19] *** mxs_ is now known as mxs [17:05:06] *** mxs has quit IRC [17:09:42] *** mxs has joined #bittorrent [17:32:24] *** mxs has quit IRC [17:32:38] *** mxs has joined #bittorrent [17:34:00] <The_8472> YES! my dht v6 routing table reached 30 nodes :) [17:34:09] <The_8472> (which is the point where it's considered as running) [17:40:05] *** mxs_ has joined #bittorrent [17:40:34] *** andar2 has joined #bittorrent [17:41:28] *** mxs has quit IRC [17:46:44] <K`Tetch> anyone here from Deluge? [17:55:54] <andar2> K`Tetch, yea [17:56:13] <K`Tetch> never mind, see the deulge channel, andar [18:01:08] *** fckgw has joined #bittorrent [18:01:35] <fckgw> what do you think of The pirate bay becoming trackerless? [18:02:44] <andar2> are they going to use magnet links? [18:02:52] <fckgw> yes# [18:02:55] <andar2> cool [18:03:10] <fckgw> there will be nothing to shut down...... [18:03:21] <burris> so much for swedish law permitting massive commercial infringement [18:05:03] <The_8472> mass scale deployment of trackerless torrents is a risky move [18:05:10] <The_8472> and can have some fallout [18:05:16] <waldorf_> hmm, is Vuze DHT still incompatible with the uTorrent one? [18:05:40] <The_8472> yes, mainline DHT is available as a plugin for those who wish to use it [18:05:48] <fckgw> The_8472 there is about 25 mil users on the site using dht [18:05:56] <BentMyWookie> The_8472: can you elaborate on "fallout"? [18:06:10] *** Switeck has joined #bittorrent [18:06:10] <The_8472> fckgw, there is a difference between using it as a fallback and as the only source of peers [18:06:31] <The_8472> BentMyWookie, DHT has no scrapes or seed/peer count for starters [18:06:41] <The_8472> thus queuing rules of clients cannot apply [18:06:42] <BentMyWookie> ya, i was thinking about that [18:06:49] <BentMyWookie> that's not critical though [18:07:00] <The_8472> it has an impact on torrent lifecycles [18:07:10] <Switeck> but who won't add something like http://tracker.openbittorrent.com:80/announce to their torrents? [18:07:19] <burris> oh noes, warez torrents without dedicated seeders might die!! [18:07:22] <waldorf_> and torrent sites, not being able to track/scrape them [18:07:37] <The_8472> yep, that's another issue [18:07:50] <waldorf_> might be fairly serious one [18:08:09] <Switeck> if anything, there's lots of idiots that add 5+ trackers to *EVERY* (public at least) torrent they do. [18:08:12] <The_8472> considering that some torrent indexing sites de-list torrents with 0 peers/seeds... yes [18:08:23] <K`Tetch> some do, some don't [18:08:33] <K`Tetch> depends ont he reason for the zero [18:08:44] <The_8472> and that peer/seed count provides a good indicator if it's worth trying to download the torrent at all [18:08:49] <K`Tetch> mn used to only if an ACTIVE scrape gave zeros for 4 hours [18:08:59] <waldorf_> what would the impact be of sites scraping DHT for peer info? [18:09:29] <The_8472> DHT does not allow mass scrapes, so that would cause some significant traffic. or at least they'd need a dht node heavily optimized for such cases [18:09:56] <fckgw> i think its similar to Kademlia on emule [18:09:59] <The_8472> not to mention that the DHT has no scrape support at all [18:10:29] <The_8472> i was proposing such a change a week ago (funny coincedence), but it's slowmoving [18:11:19] <waldorf_> I fear that the fully magnetized bittorrent is quite a fantasy, Trackers are, and always have been, quite a fundamental part of bittorrent [18:12:15] <BentMyWookie> i agree to that [18:12:36] <fckgw> would you consider dsl or cable better for bt [18:13:41] *** ajaya has joined #bittorrent [18:13:55] <The_8472> symmetric connections are best for bittorrent. from an infrastructure perspective dsl generally responds better to the load caused by bittorrent [18:14:09] <fckgw> cheers [18:14:53] <waldorf_> My argument above is mainly because communities, who regulate the torrent flow (ie filter spam/quality), are build around trackers. (even if the tracker is external, the data provided is fairly essential) [18:15:03] <MassaRoddel> which clients use dht v=WT/MO? [18:16:06] <The_8472> waldorf_, no, they're built around indexing sites with commenting/rating systems [18:16:07] <fckgw> also is it better to set upload to auto or limit it to 80% [18:16:20] <The_8472> a tracker is not really necesary for that. although scrape values are very helpful [18:16:39] <The_8472> fckgw, depends on the client. but 80% generally is a good choice [18:17:15] <waldorf_> The_8472: (that's what I meant with 'external trackers') [18:18:39] *** mxs has joined #bittorrent [18:21:12] <Switeck> I believe a well-run DOCSIS 2.0 or 3.0 cable is better than ADSL2+ for BitTorrent, because of typically higher upload speed [18:21:22] *** mxs_ has quit IRC [18:21:50] <DWKnight> but for practical purposes, *DSL connections are better [18:21:58] <Switeck> There are a few that don't have contentions over ~30:1 in the 1st mile. [18:22:11] <DWKnight> because there aren't enough well-run DOCSIS 2/3 nets out there [18:22:17] <Switeck> I wouldn't say that, there are innumerable *BAD* ADSL ISPs [18:22:44] <Switeck> What DOCSIS 2/3 nets there are out there tend to be ok on average [18:22:56] <Switeck> *MOST* cable ISPs are still using DOCSIS v1.1 [18:23:09] * The_8472 points at comcast. they do upload rate limiting at the hub instead of the endpoints, which means individual customers can congest the entire local loop. horrible design [18:23:19] <The_8472> that can't happen with DSL, because everyone has their own loop [18:23:35] <Switeck> Cable by design has to do something like that 8472. [18:23:53] <Switeck> But with DOCSIS 2.0, the upload pipe is nearly 3x larger than it was with DOCSIS 1.1 [18:23:56] <The_8472> no, you still could do uprate limiting at the local modem [18:24:04] <Switeck> mine does [18:24:20] <The_8472> well, comcast didn't. and then blamed bittorrent for congestion [18:24:22] <The_8472> so... yeah [18:24:23] <Switeck> ComCast also has upload limiting at the modem [18:24:51] <Switeck> Speedboost varies *HIGHLY* by current congestion states. [18:24:56] <The_8472> but it didn't do fairness based allocation under the case of congestion [18:25:09] <Switeck> relatively now, it mostly does [18:25:33] <The_8472> well, then it didn't, otherwise i cannot see how bittorrent could cause problems for other customers [18:25:52] <Switeck> I've seen only a few cases of throttling now, typically lasting <2 hours and still giving me 80-100 KB/sec upload instead of my usual 120 KB/sec. [18:26:11] <The_8472> because fair balancing on a per-customer basis instead of a per-flow basis would mean that each customer gets capped to only use his fair share if the line is congested due to overcontention [18:26:16] <Switeck> Happens *maybe* once a week for 15-45 minutes [18:26:27] <The_8472> well, i guess they improved things then [18:26:38] <Switeck> it is both an immense improvement and still a big bother [18:27:02] <The_8472> btw, what's the usual upload speed with docsis 3? [18:27:10] <Switeck> because I have no quick way to tell if I'm slower due to "dying" torrents OR throttling [18:27:24] <Switeck> that's just it...it's a big lie [18:27:46] <Switeck> DOCSIS 3.0 as almost *EVERY* cable ISP has implemented it has the same size upload pipe as DOCSIS 2.0 [18:27:55] <Switeck> 1 upload channel -- 27 mbit/sec [18:28:06] <The_8472> shared by how many people in the usual case? [18:28:06] <Switeck> shared between 20-100 customers [18:28:09] <The_8472> rofl [18:28:24] <Switeck> in the past, they'd cram 150-300 customers on 1 such channel. [18:28:45] <The_8472> even ADSL2+ is better than that. not to speak of VDSL [18:29:09] <Switeck> How many ADSL modems connect to a single DSLAM? [18:29:12] <The_8472> and then there's the technical possibility of running VDSL symmetrically (of course nobody offers that option except for horrendous prices) [18:29:58] <The_8472> that doesn't really matter unless the DSLAM has a slow backhaul pipe. but that would be no different to a slow pipe at the cable hub [18:30:17] <Switeck> I've heard it's often >100 -- possibly even 500+. And many DSLAMs still use a few bonded T-1's, a T-3, 100 mbit/sec fiber lines, or OC-3. [18:30:25] <Switeck> *MOST* have slow backhauls. [18:30:30] *** mxs has quit IRC [18:30:46] <The_8472> in the US maybe. not here. i haven't heard of congestion even from vdsl users [18:30:51] <The_8472> (significant congestion) [18:30:55] <burris> adsl is slow, even after five years speakeasy still can only offer me 3000/768 [18:31:05] *** goussx has quit IRC [18:31:08] <Switeck> it's very bad in Scotland, Ireland, UK, Austrlia, and much of Canada [18:31:13] <burris> except now they charge even more for it! [18:31:16] <Switeck> ...and probably elsewhere [18:31:49] <Switeck> the irony is the backhauls are almost always symmetric. [18:31:59] <Switeck> So the upload side probably manages ok [18:32:28] <Switeck> this isn't the case with cable, which has downstream channels that are 38 mbit/sec (even in DOCSIS 1.1!) [18:32:56] <The_8472> shared [18:33:11] *** mxs has joined #bittorrent [18:33:12] <Switeck> as opposed to a DSLAM using a T-3? [18:33:37] <DWKnight> T3 is 45mbit [18:33:40] <Switeck> yes [18:34:07] <Switeck> but that's also still shared [18:34:37] <The_8472> uhm, i thought we were talking about the last mile [18:34:47] <Switeck> Many ADSL ISPs have nasty-small gateways and peering arrangements, so that's how they save money by screwing the customers. [18:35:12] <The_8472> if we're talking about the backhaul then it's not intrinsic to the system but simply depends on what the ISP chooses to use [18:35:21] <Switeck> The DSLAM is only nominally not part of the last mile considering it's still a bottleneck very close to the customers [18:35:50] <The_8472> they can connect a 10GB pipe to the dslam if they wanted to. thus it's not really a good indicator what is better suited to torrenting [18:36:01] <Switeck> and nobody does [18:36:10] <Switeck> unless it's a VDSL2+ DSLAM [18:36:21] <The_8472> which are getting deployed here [18:36:25] <Switeck> I bet AT&T doesn't even do it for their Uverse [18:36:34] <The_8472> not yet in my city, but in the urban centers around germany they're rolling it out [18:36:48] <K`Tetch> if they ever get it deployed here (they're only 2 YEARS behind on uVerse deployment) I'll tell yopu [18:36:51] <Switeck> they probably use 1 gbit/sec, which is still *good enough* [18:37:28] * K`Tetch blames the uVerse slowdown on Haloween 2 and Vampire Diaries [18:37:29] <The_8472> well, i won't argue that US infrastructure sucks. that's almost common knowledge [18:37:33] <Switeck> The network has to be balanced, capable of cheap growth, and something they don't have to replace to upgrade. [18:37:50] <The_8472> fiber it is then ^^ [18:37:51] <Switeck> Sadly, the US's infrastructure isn't as bad as many. [18:38:05] <DWKnight> it is bad [18:38:09] <DWKnight> but it's not the worst [18:38:11] <Switeck> Australia and Canada made the US's look good till recently [18:38:24] <K`Tetch> where I grew up in the UK, in the suburbs of a major UK city, in 2002 I still couldn't get broadband [18:38:28] <The_8472> vdsl is nice, because it basially means fiber to the curb, so they don't have to dig up the front yard or do new installations in your home [18:38:42] <K`Tetch> BT hadn't unbundled the exchange, and the cable network (installed 10 years earlier) was 1-way [18:38:57] <Switeck> yes, the last <1 km can be almost anything as long as the infrastructure above it is robust. [18:39:24] <K`Tetch> I moved to the US, to a small town, could get DSL and cable, upto 3Mbit [18:39:39] <The_8472> but only a duopoly, hrm? [18:39:41] <Switeck> actually, you were somewhat lucky in that regard, K'Tetch. [18:39:57] <Switeck> not just to have 2 choices, but that there was broadband at all. [18:40:12] <K`Tetch> i live in the middle of nowehre, and I have broadband [18:40:32] <K`Tetch> and uverse within 2 years (maybe) [18:40:45] <Switeck> I couldn't get broadband here on the suburbs of a minor city till 2001, then only one cable ISP using pre-DOCSIS tech (Com-21 modems) had it, Graceba (now bought out by Knology) [18:40:58] <K`Tetch> ok, we were supposed to have it early this year, but again, I blame rob zombie and vampire tv shows [18:41:16] <Switeck> Blame the telephone company [18:41:20] <The_8472> our network regulation agency requires everything to be unbundled. i'm getting my line and telephone service from one provider and internet from another one (and i have a dozen or so to pick from). i also have cable and UMTS flatrate as options (though UMTS flatrates are still way too expensive). So yeah... [18:41:50] <The_8472> oh, and cable got competition too. some ISPs offer IPTV now [18:41:56] <The_8472> and i mean real IPTV [18:41:58] <Switeck> unbundling where an ISP isn't also the cable tv company...is good. [18:42:06] <K`Tetch> thats what uVerse is [18:42:39] <Switeck> uverse as far as I know, is still heavily bundled and offered by one of the most entrenched companies in the world. [18:43:12] <The_8472> the funny thing is, that we're only middle class when it comes to broadband availability and pricing [18:43:13] <K`Tetch> I meant IPTV competittion for cablecos [18:43:13] *** pevangelista has joined #bittorrent [18:44:25] <The_8472> cable could be made a lot more efficient by switching it entirely to IPTV too. multicast all programs and the hub would act as multicast router. if nobody on the loop is watching that channel the router doesn't have to forward it and thus frees up bandwidth for internet usage [18:44:53] <fckgw> and ip phones [18:45:05] <The_8472> we already have those [18:45:35] <The_8472> voip bundles are quite common. usually part of triple play packages. iptv+voip+internet [18:45:50] <Switeck> ComCast is already doing that 8472, and I hate it. [18:46:10] <fckgw> all i can get is 8mbps adsl or dial-up [18:46:22] <Switeck> they're cancelling almost all analog channels and charging a small fortune for digital tv service [18:46:36] <The_8472> Switeck, digital TV != IPTV [18:46:43] *** mxs_ has joined #bittorrent [18:46:53] <Switeck> their pay-per-view stuff now often is IPTV [18:47:07] <Switeck> some of their seldom-watched channels are the same [18:47:17] <pevangelista> hi [18:47:35] *** mxs has quit IRC [18:47:37] <The_8472> common digital TV like DVB-C (or whatever the americans are using) is always-on. it gets shoved down the pipe regardless of being watched or not. with multicasted IPTV only those channels that people are currently using need to occupy bandwidth on the cable [18:47:42] <pevangelista> sooo, IPTV, right? Where are you from? There is no IPTV service here in Brazil [18:47:43] <Switeck> almost all of them are direct extra price increases on the bill [18:48:23] <The_8472> well, that's a sales ploy... provide basic service just using new technology and charge extra for it [18:48:33] <Switeck> I am aware of the benefits [18:49:27] <Switeck> the nastiest thing ComCast is doing to get more channels is compressing 10-15 channels into low quality "digital" aggregate signal using a single 6 Mhz analog channel block. (the same channel size that gives cable internet 38 mbit/sec) [18:50:07] <fckgw> i think soon analog terrestrial will be turned off completely [18:50:16] <The_8472> 38Mbit for 15 channels? wow... [18:50:17] <Switeck> It wouldn't be so bad if they were only doing 2-5 channels that way, but they're doing up to 15! [18:50:29] <Switeck> and typically 10! [18:50:37] <The_8472> fckgw, i thought that already happend in the US [18:50:53] <The_8472> and here it happend in most cities [18:51:05] <fckgw> all i have now is satellite TV [18:51:09] <Switeck> all the artifacts and tearing issues seen in bad YouTube videos...now brought to you by ComCast. [18:51:12] <The_8472> Switeck, bonus points if they're HD channels [18:51:25] <Switeck> They do about 4 "HD" channels that way [18:51:44] <fckgw> 694 channels where i am [18:52:09] <fckgw> on satellite [18:52:18] <Switeck> ComCast is still using 860 Mhz cable spectrum, so that limits the number of 6 Mhz analog channel-blocks [18:53:03] <Switeck> There are 1000 Mhz cable systems they could go to which would remove the vast majority of their current lack-of-bandwidth...then do digital tv "right" [18:54:01] <fckgw> or better still just have 1 big fiber-optic grid that covers the whole world.......... [18:54:12] <Switeck> DOCSIS 1.1 and 2.0 Cable internet takes up less than 10 channels. [18:54:22] <Switeck> fckgw, no can do [18:54:27] <fckgw> y [18:54:39] <Switeck> the fastest practical fiber optic lines are still 40 gbit/sec [18:54:50] <Switeck> and it's much cheaper to use 10 gbit/sec or 1 gbit/sec lines [18:55:18] <Switeck> sure, it's possible to gang a bunch together...but that makes the infrastructure a nightmare [18:55:35] <fckgw> but if its a grid or "mesh" configuration there will be multiple paths [18:55:59] <Switeck> How many 40 gbit/sec lines you think would be needed just for a single city of 200k? [18:56:04] <Switeck> leading in and out [18:56:07] <The_8472> <Switeck> the fastest practical fiber optic lines are still 40 gbit/sec <- singlemode maybe. multimode can do more afaik [18:56:25] <Switeck> The_8472, single mode scores much better at range [18:56:40] <The_8472> aren't they using multimode for the transatlantic lines? [18:56:48] <Switeck> look it up [18:57:14] <Switeck> the transatlantic lines are almost certainly a special case...cost-be-not-a-direct-factor [18:58:30] <Switeck> But going from small towns of 5k-35k people, often 20+ km apart, really cheap single-mode 1 gbit/sec lines would be much better. [18:59:08] <The_8472> well, if you'd do a mesh network. or even a network of local double-rings... [18:59:17] <Switeck> just like fast Ethernet at 100 mbit/sec is "ubiquitous", we need a clearer winner in long range wiring. [18:59:42] <The_8472> 1Gbit ethernet is pretty common these days too [18:59:50] <Switeck> yes [19:00:06] <Switeck> and it is because 100 mbit/sec was popular for so long. [19:00:27] <fckgw> fiber can pay for its self to a certain extent to keep the cost down [19:01:16] *** pevangelista has quit IRC [19:01:45] *** goussx has joined #bittorrent [19:02:02] <Switeck> If decent fiber optics are put into the ground with some redundancy, it will pay for itself a couple times over in 10 years. [19:02:09] <Switeck> but that requires a LOT of good planning [19:02:16] <The_8472> btw [19:02:18] <The_8472> "AC-1 combines state-of-the-art wavelength division multiplexing (WDM) with erbium-doped fiber amplifier technology, making it the world's most powerful cable system." [19:02:27] <The_8472> (ac1 is one of the transatlantic fibers) [19:02:47] <The_8472> and i'm silly [19:02:52] <The_8472> i meant WDM, not multimode [19:02:53] <fckgw> Switeck and copper is nearly 6900 USD per metric tonne [19:03:48] <Switeck> singlemode fiber optic lines are easier to make as far as I know, and getting cheaper still. [19:04:21] <Switeck> What you couple to the ends of the lines (whether using WDM or not) can vary immensely in speed and price. [19:04:37] <Switeck> some even use semi-cheap LEDs [19:05:01] <Switeck> but those aren't good for long ranges [19:06:28] <Switeck> They're decent enough for a small industrial park or wiring a school campus though. [19:08:48] <fckgw> yeah [19:10:10] <The_8472> well, you need more expensive equipment to couple to a singlemode fiber too, since they have a lower angle at which they can scoop up light beams [19:10:54] <The_8472> wdm+singlemode = lots of bandwidth at a long range if you're willing to pay the price [19:14:11] <Switeck> but what's needed has to be relatively cheap to put it everywhere [19:14:45] <The_8472> well, wireless links with directional antenna are an option too [19:15:05] <The_8472> though you need a good chunk of spectrum to do that [19:15:49] <Switeck> wireless links stink [19:16:09] <Switeck> the antenna still needs wires leading to it [19:16:30] <Switeck> and building them in the middle of cities is often not practical. [19:16:37] <fckgw> wireless is a last resort imo [19:17:30] <Switeck> the infighting in the USA over cellular companies, their antennas, and the arm+leg the wired phone companies are charging them for *THEIR* backhauls is worthy of a couple Supreme Court cases. [19:18:01] <DWKnight> more than a couple [19:18:20] <Switeck> The iPhone alone nearly brought the whole infrastructure to collapse. [19:18:54] <The_8472> that's due to cheap infrastructure, not due to shortcomings in the network design itself [19:19:04] <Switeck> no, it's not [19:19:19] <The_8472> the cellular providers just neglected to upgrade their networks / deploy more microcells in urban centers [19:19:23] <Switeck> the network designs are often horrible...barely suited for voice lines [19:19:33] <Switeck> the infrastructure is *NOT* cheap [19:19:45] <Switeck> but on top of that vastly overpriced [19:20:35] <The_8472> then explain to me why we have UMTS flatrates here in germany without any significant network problems? [19:20:53] <Switeck> commonality of design maybe to force the price down? [19:20:53] <The_8472> while parts of the US are still stuck with GSM ^^ [19:21:04] <Switeck> heavy government involvement/support? [19:21:24] <Switeck> subsidized? [19:21:38] <The_8472> no, not subsidized. in fact the govt is auctioning off frequencies [19:21:46] <Switeck> I despise that [19:21:52] <The_8472> so they even got money from the whole UMTS business [19:22:06] <The_8472> but they do put limits on roaming fees [19:22:19] <DWKnight> money-hungry execs in the us [19:22:24] <Switeck> we're stuck currently with beyond pathetic computer wireless LAN frequencies because of how public airwaves were sold off [19:22:31] <DWKnight> that want more money for their own pockets than to put into infrastructure [19:22:46] <The_8472> and afaik there are also some requirements that telcos have to allow competitors to colocate their wireless equipment on towers or something like that [19:23:05] <The_8472> which drives down infrastructure prices [19:23:21] <Switeck> that the government can 'turn a profit' by selling off frequencies to megacorps...isn't a good longterm solution [19:23:40] <The_8472> they do reserve some frequencies for public use [19:23:51] <Switeck> pish! [19:24:50] <The_8472> and someone has to roll out the wireless infrastructure. if there are no frequencies to use... what should the telcos do? [19:24:56] <Switeck> dedicated-purpose but open frequencies seems a better way to go. [19:25:03] <The_8472> well, maybe some licencing model would work, but still [19:25:23] <The_8472> Switeck, what if multiple parties want to use the same one for their cell towers then? [19:25:45] <Switeck> interference studies will still need to be done [19:26:02] <Switeck> because nearly everything is FM [19:27:14] <Switeck> there is less issues with same frequency use when frequency range maps well with infrastructure needs. [19:27:36] <Switeck> It's like auctioning off IPv4 and giving early arrivals a /8 space just because they "paid more" [19:28:26] <The_8472> well, they didn't forsee IP addresses being a limited resources [19:28:38] <The_8472> frequencies are a limited resource [19:28:41] <Switeck> they forsee radio frequencies as such [19:28:46] <The_8472> yes [19:28:56] <Switeck> but are doing even worse [19:29:33] <The_8472> well, propose a model that would allow wireless services to operate and recoup the costs of building an infrastructure that relies on some frequency ranges being available [19:30:12] <Switeck> tv 'whitespace' offers some possibilities for just that. [19:31:04] <The_8472> for localized use and no guarantees of service. if you're a cellular provider you usually want to offer your customers some reachability guarantees [19:31:10] <Switeck> range/power limitations have existed for a lot of things for decades [19:31:24] <The_8472> so you need some scheme to guarantee coverage [19:31:33] <The_8472> even if it's shared in some manner [19:31:58] <Switeck> so choose who "wins"? [19:32:21] <The_8472> and tie some conditions to it [19:32:26] <Switeck> pump public money in to force prices down? [19:33:16] <The_8472> like... sell the frequency to a telco, require them to build out infrastructure and to also to provide it to competitors at a low profit margin [19:33:36] <The_8472> s/sell/licence/ [19:34:06] <The_8472> if they don't build out the infrastructure or engage in anti-competetive pratices they lose the licence [19:34:16] <Switeck> I am very scared of another round of frequency "landgrabs"... [19:34:36] <Switeck> and indeed it is land as well, due to FM area overlaps [19:35:29] <The_8472> well, the govt can't use the licences by itself unless you want a state-run telco... which i think nobody wants. so you need incentive for commercial organizations to make use of them. some compromise is necessary for that because they have to build a business model around some minimal guarantees that the govt has to grant them [19:35:30] <Switeck> Living very near 2 state borders and multiple cellular "territories", this is a very real problem where you can connect to the "wrong" cell tower [19:35:59] <Switeck> I'm not sure much in the way of incentives are needed [19:36:05] <The_8472> see, here that's not a problem. because roaming and sharing of the infrastructure is mandated [19:36:38] <Switeck> well here, that's how the frequencies and areas were sold off. [19:36:48] <Switeck> And "states rights" issues... [19:37:00] <The_8472> he, here it was done ona national level [19:37:19] <Switeck> nationalize Europe? [19:38:11] <The_8472> well... our federal govt made such sharing mandatory within germany. but the EU rolls their own rules that limits roaming fees within the EU [19:38:38] <The_8472> so even on the international level the cell towers can just hand off calls to each other [19:38:49] <The_8472> though it's more expensive [19:38:56] <The_8472> but still regulated [19:39:22] <Switeck> ok, while it's a difference of national lines...in terms of area, the largest US states aren't much different in landmass from small European countries that still want some sovereignty. [19:40:33] <Switeck> but many of the networking corporations involved are multi-national. [19:41:11] <The_8472> well, the difference is that regulatory bodies don't shy away from rather strict rules. When i compare that to the hands-off aproaches by the FCC then it's quite different [19:41:44] <Switeck> They've already gained some economies of scale and standard designs...and it's forcing frequency policy and existing devices to coexist that's the problem. [19:42:17] <Switeck> ComCast is suing the FCC over how FCC trampled their right to manage their network... [19:42:44] <Switeck> That this was even allowed to pass the laugh test is sad. [19:43:37] *** GTHK has joined #bittorrent [19:44:09] <The_8472> well, sometimes our telcos sue too when they think that the regulations imposed by our Bundesnetzagentur are too harsh, but most of the time they swallw it and accept it as binding [19:44:16] <Switeck> I'm sincerely hoping that case gets dropped quick [19:45:18] <Switeck> often regulations are too harsh or at least too arbitrary. [19:45:19] <The_8472> the thing is that our regulatory agency has the mandate to correct market failures [19:45:40] <Switeck> ( many of the market failures are from previous regulations gone bad :P ) [19:45:53] <The_8472> which stems from the time where the state run telco was privatized and had a de-facto monopoly [19:46:52] <Switeck> problem we have here with internet service is municipal "franchises" where a company is invited with incentives to wire a town for "broadband" [19:47:04] <Switeck> that company gets exclusive access, and often does a piss-poor job of it [19:47:49] <The_8472> hehe, here it's quite the opposite. anyone could build the infrastructure if they get the permission from the city. but they have to rent it out to competitors at regulated prices [19:48:05] <Switeck> it's mostly small towns I mean [19:48:37] <Switeck> and the US government funding that so rural areas get wired speaks volumes about our future broadband competition... [19:48:42] <The_8472> yeah, most cities here are serviced by the ex-monopolist. But in some areas one of their competitors builds out infrastructure because they're slacking [19:49:06] <Switeck> and why our speeds lag [19:49:38] <The_8472> or the competitors roll out fiber when only copper has been deployed (that's often done by regional providers) [19:49:42] <Switeck> I am hopeful of some co-op projects in small towns, but many of those get litigated to death [19:50:39] <The_8472> in sweden they do things even differently, at least in some model cases i've read about. the city lays out fibers when they dig up trenches and then rent them out to ISPs [19:50:53] <The_8472> so the dark fiber is basically public infrastructure like water [19:50:59] <Switeck> Sweden is probably the best of all worlds in that case [19:51:32] <Switeck> taxation to do it would seem steep, but with careful planning it could pay for itself in <10 years. [19:52:01] <The_8472> well, the city has the advantage that they're digging up roads every now and then anyway [19:52:06] <Switeck> right [19:52:24] <Switeck> I've seen a newly paved road here dug up to put something under it [19:52:32] <Switeck> because planning was nonexistent. [19:52:54] <K`Tetch> in the uk, we had it a lot, same roads dug up 4-5 times in 3 months [19:52:59] <Switeck> our road grid formed by 'happenstance' [19:53:44] <K`Tetch> was so bad, there was even a beer advert made about it, about a gasman digging up a road, and other utilities comming along and saying 'hey, while you got that up, mind if I..." about 'if only everything in life was as perfect as <beer>" [19:54:00] <The_8472> here land gets designated for urban use. then it gets split into parcels and the infrastructure (roads, sewage, water, electricity) gets built when the parcels are being sold [19:54:03] <Switeck> yep, even idiots can see that. [19:54:24] <K`Tetch> I wanna buy 20 acres [19:54:27] <The_8472> so just rolling out fiber while building out the rest of the infrastructure seems a no-brainer [19:54:27] <K`Tetch> and build my own road [19:54:39] <K`Tetch> (and a racing track, but thats besides the point) [20:03:29] *** _rafi2_ has joined #bittorrent [20:08:54] <fckgw> The_8472 u from germany? [20:08:59] <The_8472> yes [20:09:09] <fckgw> what do you think of the eu [20:10:17] <The_8472> atm the parliament does not have enough power, thus lawmaking is basically run by the executives of the individual countries, which is horribly undemocratic [20:10:25] <The_8472> i hope that improves with the lissabon treaty [20:11:30] <fckgw> i think we will be out within the next 5 years [20:11:46] <The_8472> hrm? [20:12:05] <The_8472> i don't quite understand what you mean [20:12:18] <fckgw> last time i think about 55% of the population wanted out [20:12:30] <fckgw> in the polls [20:12:32] <The_8472> who is we? [20:12:35] <fckgw> UK [20:12:38] <The_8472> ah [20:13:35] *** HandheldPenguin is now known as HandheldPenguin` [20:13:40] [20:13:42] <The_8472> which is quite funny, because i bet people would complain a lot if all the benefits of being EU citizens would fall away [20:14:08] <The_8472> like paying customs when improting something from the EU, no free travel working inside EU countries due to the shengen agreement, ... [20:14:16] <fckgw> like switzerland and norway do [20:14:59] <fckgw> they dont seem to have many problems [20:15:00] <The_8472> well, those have some additional treaties with the EU to get most of that [20:15:15] <The_8472> which the UK wouldn't have if they just left the EU [20:15:48] *** bt42 has quit IRC [20:15:54] <fckgw> the immigration problem is out of control [20:16:32] <The_8472> how so? the UK is the furthest from most of the border-crossing plagued countries [20:17:17] <fckgw> they just flood in for the free medical care and the schools etc... [20:18:13] <fckgw> there is no capital punishment anymore...... [20:18:48] <The_8472> anyone who regrets that needs to be shot in the face. [20:18:56] <The_8472> and yes, i'm aware of the irony of that statement [20:19:29] <fckgw> how can "life" be 10 years????? [20:22:13] <fckgw> they even keep pushing us to use the metric system [20:22:19] <fckgw> they need to back off [20:22:36] <The_8472> over here it's 15 years. and a judge can order indefinite secure detention after that if the person is deemed a permanent risk to society. basically you're not a prisoner after that anymore, just detained [20:23:25] [20:23:47] <Switeck> 0 F makes even less sense [20:24:07] <K`Tetch> coldest day measured iirc [20:24:08] <K`Tetch> at the time [20:24:10] <fckgw> it seems like they have their tentacles into our everyday lives [20:24:12] <K`Tetch> and 100 was th hottest [20:24:26] <The_8472> fckgw, your national govt has that far far worse [20:24:35] <K`Tetch> or range of human comfort [20:24:35] <The_8472> like omnipresent surveillance in london? [20:24:43] <K`Tetch> not just london, most of the country [20:24:48] <Switeck> I would not call 0 F in any way "comfortable" [20:24:58] <K`Tetch> there are more cameras in the shetland isles, than in San FRansisco [20:25:12] <K`Tetch> right, )F is at the bottom of human comfort [20:25:31] <K`Tetch> and above 100f is beyond easy human confort as well [20:25:33] [20:25:34] <Switeck> You've got to be bundled up in full snow gear or risk near-instant frostbite [20:26:24] * K`Tetch remembers standing at a roadside for 5 hours wearing only a light sweatshirt at 34F (1C) and not being all that bad [20:26:49] <Switeck> You're probably not old with poor circulation [20:26:54] <fckgw> the cameras are just part of the EU control grid [20:27:06] <K`Tetch> and 14 hours straight working in the desert when it was 30F, and not being THAt bad (except accidentally spinning a golf-cart [20:27:10] <Switeck> control of what?!? [20:27:28] <fckgw> New world order [20:27:31] <K`Tetch> I was 20 at the time, Switeck, but I have arthritus, and very low BP [20:27:43] <The_8472> <fckgw> the cameras are just part of the EU control grid <- lol. they are 100% imposed by your national govt [20:27:55] <K`Tetch> I was going to suggest you go join the UKPP fckgw, but we don't want crazies [20:27:59] <The_8472> there is no EU policy that mandates surveillance of public areas [20:28:22] <Switeck> red light cameras here in the US have earned so much ire that it's hard to imagine them getting extended to elsewhere without a public outcry [20:28:37] <Andrius> if people spread such fud around, no wonder they'd want to leave EU [20:28:54] <Andrius> when they finally leave, they'd notice nothing changed... [20:29:05] <Andrius> at least not the things they expected [20:29:22] <K`Tetch> theres something like 10,000 ANPR cameras in the UK, Switeck [20:29:32] <K`Tetch> if you count statics, and vehicle mounted [20:29:40] <fckgw> yeah its just to make money [20:29:50] <Switeck> interstates in the US are slowly getting wired that way too [20:29:51] <The_8472> the UK is getting decried as nanny state. Because they're not only surveilling their citizens, forbidding photography of public places in the name of national security... no they also require parents to undergo background checks if they want to tend to their children on public playgrounds. because they could be pedophiles... yeeeah... [20:30:17] <fckgw> i will admit there is alot of crime [20:30:18] <The_8472> all of this has nothing to do with the EU [20:30:28] <The_8472> fckgw, no. the thing is there isn't [20:30:35] <The_8472> not more than in most other EU countries [20:30:44] <The_8472> it just gets hyped up [20:30:46] <K`Tetch> that playground thing is only one playground, by the local council [20:31:11] <The_8472> K`Tetch, still... it is an excellent example of policy changes throughout the UK. [20:31:47] <fckgw> the anpr on garages is because people drive off without paying for fuel [20:32:04] <The_8472> like they are also planning various public databases. fingerprint databases, gene databases (i've even read suggestions that every citizens, not just criminals should be registered), clearing databases for those who work with children, ... [20:32:39] <Switeck> 1984 much? [20:32:45] <The_8472> yup [20:33:27] <The_8472> so again fckgw, before you rant about some pretty generic EU policies as being intrusive i suggest you take a look at your national policies first. they're a lot more intrusive into your daily life [20:33:51] <Switeck> I've heard about home defense laws/issues being insane too. [20:34:50] <fckgw> maybe so, but over half the population agrees with me... [20:35:25] <The_8472> just because a majority thinks so doesn't make it right [20:35:38] <Andrius> maybe half of the population doesn't have a clue, like you [20:35:49] <Switeck> fckgw, I don't know what you mean. [20:36:00] <The_8472> witch burnings? the NSDAP being elected in germany? galileo being ridiculed for his theories? [20:36:06] <The_8472> oh yeah, and the world is still flat [20:36:57] <fckgw> http://www.democracymovementsurrey.co.uk/dyk_pollwatch.html [20:38:06] <The_8472> well, the question is... how does your media portray the EU? i bet they only highlight negative things [20:38:18] <fckgw> yeah [20:38:26] <Andrius> media tends to highlight negative things everywhere [20:38:54] <The_8472> so, now ask yourself how much of those "public opinions" are based on facts and how much is based on negative hype [20:39:40] <fckgw> it will be hard to see from your point of view [20:39:49] <The_8472> just like "war on terrorism" is mostly driven by media inflating the impact of terrorism. more people die in car accidents every year than from terorism in a decade. [20:40:11] <Switeck> more like 3 decades [20:40:16] <The_8472> fckgw, we're EU members too. we're affected by the same policies. in fact... we got the Euro, the UK even opted out of that [20:40:32] <fckgw> accidents are accidents, terrorism is done on purpose [20:40:54] <Switeck> cost+risk prevention is still worth considering [20:41:11] <fckgw> what about the 48 hour work limit they are pushing down our throats [20:41:20] <Switeck> 48 hour/week? [20:41:22] <The_8472> ok, then go to the grieving family where their mother died in a car accident and explain to them why your govt doesn't spend billions on preventing that while it does to prevent terrorism which kills far less people [20:41:58] <The_8472> explain to them why they are wasting more money on a less likely cause of death [20:41:59] <Switeck> bleeding heart strawman attempt? XD [20:42:20] <The_8472> Switeck, it works excellent in that case because his argument is emotional too [20:42:26] <fckgw> we dont even drive on the same side of the road thats how different we are [20:42:26] <Switeck> hammer sees everything as nails [20:43:55] <The_8472> but to put in a more objective way: intent does not change the fact that someone died and more resources are spent on preventing less likely risks of death while that money could be used for more significant ones [20:44:20] <Switeck> you don't know how much opposition there even is to seatbelt laws here [20:44:31] <fckgw> like sending it to brussels [20:44:52] <The_8472> fckgw, you get billions through free trade [20:45:17] <The_8472> it's not like the EU is only taking [20:45:18] <Switeck> car/truck safety design was questionable because how tests were done [20:45:29] <fckgw> there isnt even a car industry left [20:45:40] <Switeck> and consumers until recently wanted "bigger and better" to survive a collision [20:45:53] <The_8472> yeah, that's a big issue in the US [20:46:04] <fckgw> Switeck you must have hear of the NAU ?? [20:46:11] <Switeck> 2 ton pickups/SUVs are "lightweights" [20:46:17] <fckgw> mexico, canada and USA ? [20:46:21] <The_8472> everytime i talk to someone about greener cars they say "if i'm in an accident i'd rather be the guy in a humvee" ~~ [20:46:30] <Switeck> I'm familiar somewhat with NAFTA [20:46:41] <fckgw> love it or hate it? [20:47:20] <Switeck> it causes some job erosion, mad levels of illegal immigrants, and doesn't help Mexico as much as it was claimed to... [20:47:37] <fckgw> sound familiar [20:47:54] <Switeck> the idea was it would pull Mexico up to 1st world standards [20:48:39] <fckgw> borders are there for a reason, to keep nations sovereign [20:48:41] <Switeck> It has helped SOME Mexican cities SOME, but ask me again in 5-10 years about their crime rates. :P [20:49:33] <fckgw> we have polish insted instead of mexicans [20:49:52] <Switeck> I hope they learn to speak the local language quicker XD [20:50:01] <fckgw> yeah right [20:51:07] <Switeck> The ones that sincerely try to get US citizenship here face all sorts of legal bars and difficulties. Those that don't...save a ton of money, time, and headaches on average. [20:51:37] <The_8472> imo some things are best done on a small scale while other things are best done on a large scale. 100% nationalism is just as stupid as having everything centrally governed from brussels for example [20:51:43] <The_8472> a good compromise is important [20:52:13] <Switeck> companies here use worker visas as anti-union weapons [20:52:26] <Switeck> you don't want to work long hours...you get sent home [20:52:33] <fckgw> poland is a democracy now, so why dont they sort out their own system instead of putting strain on ours [20:52:56] <Switeck> what's their unemployment rate? [20:53:13] <The_8472> fckgw, why don't you just produce as much CO2 as the polish do? [20:53:16] <Switeck> people go where jobs are, if they reasonably can...without much concern for borders. [20:53:28] <Switeck> bleh CO2! [20:53:40] <The_8472> just demonstrating that some things do span borders [20:53:55] <fckgw> oh your one of them CO2 guys [20:53:58] <Switeck> throw gigantic sums of money reducing CO2, meanwhile other more pressing pollution rises. [20:54:06] <Switeck> CO2 is important to reduce [20:54:18] <Switeck> but not at the sake of other pollution concerns [20:54:21] <fckgw> co2 is a life-giving gas [20:54:53] <fckgw> an abundance of co2 encourages plant grwoth [20:54:58] <The_8472> only to a limited extent. i suggest you try to enter a room with a 80% oxygen 20% co2 mixture [20:55:02] <Switeck> farm runoff here and even what they put into the air is far scarier than CO2 emissions to me [20:55:14] <Switeck> 80% oxygen is pretty dangerous too [20:55:20] <The_8472> dangerous, but not deadly [20:55:46] <fckgw> we breath it out , and plants breathe it in so how can it be so harmful to the environment? [20:56:05] <The_8472> because it accumulates if it exceeds the ecosystem's ability to soak it up [20:56:18] *** bittwist has joined #bittorrent [20:56:23] <Switeck> plants, if given a chance, *WILL* increase their intake of CO2 [20:56:33] <The_8472> not to mention that it gets dissolved in ocean water, increasing it's acidity, thus threatening the chemical balance and species relying on an exoskeleton [20:56:42] <The_8472> and plants are also limited by other nutrients [20:56:52] <Switeck> so clear-cutting forests and scraping coral beds with trawlers...are not good. [20:57:08] <The_8472> if you increase CO2 then they might not have enough sunlight to process it, not enough trace minerals to build new cells fast enough etc. [20:57:26] <Switeck> Blame China then XD [20:57:34] <fckgw> its the sun that causes global warming [20:57:40] <The_8472> ... [20:57:41] <K`Tetch> transmission [20:57:43] <The_8472> ok... [20:57:47] * The_8472 gives up on fckgw [20:57:49] <K`Tetch> (sorry) [20:57:49] <Switeck> They're building coal-fired electricity plants faster than we can tear them down in the rest of the world. :P [20:57:57] <The_8472> if you REALLY believe that you're a lost case [20:58:26] <Switeck> and they're not using modern coal scrubbers on the smokestacks, if any at all. [20:58:50] <fckgw> they are using co2 as an excuse to bring in even more taxes [20:58:52] <Andrius> <fckgw> its the sun that causes global warming < it's the first time I see such an idea, but it's absolutely brilliant [20:58:57] <Andrius> we should ban the sun [20:59:06] <DWKnight> then we get the matrix [20:59:08] <K`Tetch> it's also, technially true [20:59:22] <Andrius> K`Tetch, yeah, that's why it's brilliant [20:59:24] <Switeck> solar cycle has had more sunspots over last 50 years than it did 200-500 years ago [20:59:49] <fckgw> the sun will have far more effect on temprature than coal and cars [20:59:49] <Andrius> we should force sun to pay taxes for excess heat it produces [20:59:58] <Switeck> so man's induced global warming is seeing a 'perfect storm' [21:00:06] <K`Tetch> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Sunspots_11000_years.svg [21:00:20] <uriel> yay flamewars! [21:00:26] <uriel> (pun not intended) [21:00:40] * DWKnight puts on his pyro suit and flamethrowers uriel [21:00:43] * Andrius points his flamethrower at uriel [21:00:47] * Andrius fires [21:01:06] <DWKnight> I think I've played too much TF2 [21:01:15] <uriel> folks, I am made of 100% pure flames already, you can't flame me [21:01:34] * DWKnight dumps a tanker of water on uriel [21:02:04] <Andrius> me puts uriel into a room with no oxygen [21:02:23] <uriel> Andrius: haha, I'm also a troll, trolls don't need to breathe ;P [21:02:28] <The_8472> http://www.nationalacademies.org/includes/climatechangestatement.pdf <- if basically all academies of science on this planet get together to make a policy statement that states that climate change is caused by human emissions [21:02:39] <The_8472> then i ask you, who are you to question it without solid proof? [21:03:43] <uriel> this is science kids, there is no such thing as 'proof' in science (I know I make that mistake often myself) [21:03:50] <Andrius> there is also an issue of pollution, which is definitely NOT caused by sun [21:04:24] <fckgw> you need to watch a film called "The Great Global Warming Swindle ", its on google video [21:04:35] <uriel> (not to try to question the evidence for anything, I'm no meteorologist/climate scientist/whatever, so I'm not having much of an interest to argue about this things) [21:05:01] <Andrius> tldr: uriel is a troll [21:05:03] <uriel> my only problem with global warming is that Al Gore is a fucking asshat [21:05:19] <uriel> (and a huge hypocrite to boot) [21:05:25] <The_8472> what has a person to do with facts? [21:05:32] <The_8472> just because you don't like the person does it change the facts? [21:05:46] <fckgw> you are being told lies [21:06:00] <The_8472> <fckgw> you need to watch a film called "The Great Global Warming Swindle ", its on google video <- you mean the one right next to "aliens assasinated JFK"? [21:06:14] <Andrius> guys, there is no global warming, no EU, no UK, no MAFIAA, we're all in the matrix! [21:06:48] <The_8472> sorry, i'm going to trust scientific consensus more than conspiracy theorists, politicians or lobbyists [21:07:07] <uriel> The_8472: I was only talking about facts, just facts related to al gore, nothing else ;P [21:07:12] <Switeck> get scientists to agree how to fix it, then we're golden XD [21:07:35] <uriel> fckgw: you forgot your tin foil hat again? aliens are controlling your brain! [21:07:39] <The_8472> Switeck, oh. that is easy. reducing emissions by 30% and keeping them at that level [21:07:53] <Switeck> at the household level that means what? [21:07:54] <Andrius> prople should just keep their fridges open, so that they cool the environemnt [21:08:11] <The_8472> or maybe it was more than 30% [21:08:13] <uriel> The_8472: that is not easy, nothing I have seen says there is consensus on 1) what the risks are 2) how much cutting emissions would affect things [21:08:28] <The_8472> anyway, there already is consensus on how to solve this, just policy makers don't want to do it [21:08:41] <uriel> (not saying that things wont get bad, and that cutting emissions wont be a good thing, but saying "cut by 30% and all will be ok" is pure speculation) [21:09:06] <Switeck> And designing cars/trucks that are 30% more efficient won't work [21:09:18] <The_8472> uriel, of course there aren't any hard statements because there are different models. but there goals how to avoid the worst case scenarios [21:09:20] <Switeck> because their production is also emissions [21:09:21] <uriel> The_8472: they could start by abolishing all the oil subsidies all over the world, that would cut consumption in about half [21:09:29] <fckgw> the problem will sort itself out [21:09:32] <uriel> (random number pulled out of my ass, but considerably anyway) [21:09:39] <uriel> fckgw: you just said there was no problem! [21:09:48] <Switeck> simple answer, when oil supplies get depleted, the problem may brutally solve itself [21:09:54] * uriel loves how often both sides of this 'argument' want to have it both ways... [21:10:05] <fckgw> if the oil runs out [21:10:08] <The_8472> Switeck, if we burn up all our oil reserves then it's already too late [21:10:12] <Switeck> it effectively will [21:10:13] <uriel> Switeck: excep that oil supplies wont get depleted for some time.. [21:10:32] <uriel> The_8472: too late for what? the end of the world? [21:10:40] <uriel> weather is not a binary state [21:10:47] <Switeck> efficiency becomes far more cost-effective with higher fuel prices [21:11:06] <Switeck> instead of trying to regulate every aspect of people's lives [21:11:20] [21:11:31] <The_8472> not to mention the loss of biodiversity [21:11:35] <fckgw> Switeck is talking sense [21:11:52] <fckgw> wow 2-4? [21:12:02] <The_8472> world average temperatures [21:12:36] [21:12:53] <Switeck> if you're within 10 meters of the current ocean levels, you are are a huge increased risk from violent weather -- I've seen numerous hurricanes [21:13:01] <Switeck> beach erosion from just ONE is immense [21:13:13] <The_8472> it means that extreme weather situations increase, that some tipping points are reached, that the global sea level rises due to ice melting off glaciers/the antarctic, ... [21:13:37] <uriel> 20:10 < Switeck> efficiency becomes far more cost-effective with higher fuel prices [21:14:03] <The_8472> efficiency becomes far more cost-effective if you account for all externalties too [21:14:15] <fckgw> just watch the film to the end and you will see how wrong you are [21:14:16] <uriel> exactly, I loved how during the presidential campaing all candidates keept saying how they were going to 1) cut emissions and stop global warming 2) bring down the price of oil! Often in the same sentence! [21:14:19] <The_8472> because fuel prices don't include all the damage you cause in the long term [21:14:54] <uriel> The_8472: so put a huge tax on oil, still, starting by removing all the subsidies would be an start (oil prices are heavily subsidized in many developing countries including china) [21:15:21] <uriel> of course, a tax on oil is a political non-starter in the US [21:15:26] <uriel> so, nothing will be done [21:15:34] <The_8472> fckgw, unless that film comes with a bunch of whitepapers that can refute pretty much any major study on climate change then watching it will be pointless. many claims made by opponents sound reasonable on the surface. but they do not hold up to detailed study [21:15:46] <uriel> so better get used to things being warmer, I dont' mind, but then I live in Sweden and it is plenty of cold already :) [21:16:21] <The_8472> wait until the gulf stream collapses due to fresh water influx into the atlantic [21:16:35] <fckgw> let it happen [21:16:40] <The_8472> which is one possible scenario (although one of the less likely ones) [21:17:01] <Switeck> the gulf stream may divert south and continue just fine [21:17:11] <Switeck> but you in northern Europe will be screwed [21:17:24] <Andrius> ohshi- [21:17:49] * uriel isn't too worried, it wont be colder than canada [21:18:12] <The_8472> northern canada is a lot less hospitable than sweden [21:18:22] <Switeck> try more like siberia is a scenario while 30 degrees away from the equator will be 40+ C [21:19:27] *** _rafi2_ is now known as _rafi_ [21:19:34] <The_8472> <fckgw> let it happen <- you might even happen to live in a region that won't be too affected by global warming. or one of the few that even benefit from it [21:19:51] <The_8472> but does that absolve you from the responsibility towards those on who it will inflict great damage? [21:20:13] <The_8472> some island nations in the pacific are already losing a few square meters a day today [21:20:14] <K`Tetch> ni fact, one group has been using northern canada as a test-area for a martian habitat [21:20:45] <K`Tetch> (about 10 years ago I was giving serious consideration towards trying for a manned mars mission) [21:21:07] <Switeck> manned mars mission? I'd rather spend money on CO2 reduction projects here :p [21:21:26] <Andrius> nah, earth is screwed, let's go to mars [21:21:34] <The_8472> well, space exploration is important too, just in a even longer timeframe than curbing climat change [21:21:38] <Switeck> Earth is a *LOT* bigger than mars [21:21:39] <K`Tetch> well, it's a long term project. At the time, it was looking like a 2020 mission was possible [21:21:51] <Andrius> Switeck, I'm aware [21:21:58] <K`Tetch> so I was planning finish my robotics degree, get an astrophyics one [21:22:02] <Switeck> a lot of preliminary robotic missions are needed before we try a Mar-shot [21:22:08] <Switeck> with people on board [21:22:36] <The_8472> we also need to test new engines for interplanetary travel [21:22:46] <K`Tetch> got to the end of my robotics degree... ended up working on TV, getting married, having kids [21:22:53] <The_8472> like those ion drives or VASIMR [21:22:55] <Switeck> ion engines -- efficient but very low thrust currently [21:23:00] <K`Tetch> nah, what we have now is acceptable for IP travel [21:23:23] <K`Tetch> ions are always going to be low-thrust, but they have a low initial mass for final velocity [21:23:30] <Andrius> but not IPv6 travel [21:23:49] * DWKnight slaps Andrius [21:24:09] <The_8472> a working space elevator would be a huge win for the entire planet, right after fusion [21:24:10] * Andrius considers fighting back [21:24:16] <The_8472> but... as i said... long term projects [21:24:53] <Switeck> space elevator = pipe dream! [21:25:17] <The_8472> lift something to geostationary orbit with a space elevator and then use ion engines or other high efficiency thingies. it would save a lot compared to conventional rockets [21:25:23] <The_8472> Switeck, for now. yes [21:25:51] <The_8472> harnessing the power source of the sun used to be a pipe dream too [21:25:57] <The_8472> now it's within reach [21:25:57] <Switeck> even if you exceeded diamond's strength 10 times over it would be ugly hard [21:26:17] <Switeck> and manufacturing it?! CO2 emissions anyone? :P [21:26:20] <K`Tetch> carbon nanotube fillament braiding [21:26:29] <Switeck> not strong enough K'Tetch [21:26:40] <K`Tetch> depends how well you braid it [21:26:51] <The_8472> carbon nanotubes meet the required tensile strength [21:26:55] <Switeck> I don't like barely engineered designs [21:27:08] <The_8472> it's mostly an engineering issue how close you can get to the ideal value [21:27:49] <The_8472> a very very big engineering issue though [21:27:57] <Switeck> getting into low orbit with the Earth's brutal gravity well and thick atmosphere is going to be an energy concern as well. [21:28:24] <DWKnight> orbital solar generators to broadcast power down to earth [21:28:37] <The_8472> the japanese are already planning that one [21:29:10] <The_8472> and here in europe we're working on sustainable fusion power [21:29:12] <Switeck> and I don't know if sticking a big antenna through the Earth's magnetic field out to the Van Allen radiation belt...might not have unforseen consequences. [21:29:13] <fckgw> dont worry about it [21:29:22] <The_8472> fusion in itself already works, it just takes more energy than you can extract right now [21:29:34] *** _rafi2_ has joined #bittorrent [21:30:53] <DWKnight> the science required to get the power back to earth has been tested [21:31:02] <DWKnight> microwave broadcast DOES work over the atmosphere depth [21:31:26] <Switeck> I'm sure the US military can weaponize that with HAARP [21:31:28] <The_8472> lasers work too btw [21:31:56] <K`Tetch> If you have an elevator, just add some power cables [21:32:13] <The_8472> not as easy as you think [21:32:25] <K`Tetch> microwave to Clark, downline it, and add to grids like that [21:32:29] <The_8472> they would have to be superconducting, otherwise resistive losses would be too high [21:33:17] <The_8472> and superconductive cables need insulation and cooling, which adds a lot of weight [21:33:33] <The_8472> and adding weight is a big no-no on a space elevator [21:33:53] <K`Tetch> eh? the idea is to make the terminus counterbalancing [21:34:09] <The_8472> the tensile strength is the issue [21:34:21] <K`Tetch> again, that's down to fillament braiding [21:34:27] <The_8472> the entire structure barely supports its own weight and maybe that of an elevator capsle [21:34:30] *** HandheldPenguin` is now known as HandheldPenguin [21:34:45] <K`Tetch> but ideally, the earth end should basically 'hover' a foot above ground [21:35:07] <The_8472> again... tensile strength [21:35:16] <K`Tetch> (have you never read KSR's Mars Trillogy? [21:35:33] <The_8472> i've read papers on the feasibility of a space elevator [21:35:35] <K`Tetch> would be LESS than if it was hard-fixed, and we have the technology for it [21:35:50] <Switeck> the potential difference of a space elevator and the ground could be staggering too [21:37:01] <The_8472> and the conclusion is that ideal tensile strength of pure carbon nanotubes is barely enough to support its own weight. if you hang cables that are 30k km long onto it then you could easily double the weight of the entire structure which would vastly exceed its own tensile strength [21:37:18] <K`Tetch> just straight, yes [21:37:23] <K`Tetch> but not braided [21:37:33] <K`Tetch> it's like rope, there's a weave there for a reason [21:37:58] <The_8472> braiding does not increase tensile strength, it just guarantees proper distribution. and thus prevents cascading failure modes [21:38:12] <fckgw> what do you think: http://img262.imageshack.us/img262/4421/granny003.jpg [21:38:23] <The_8472> afaik braiding even slightly decreases the strenght due to shear forces [21:39:28] <The_8472> it's just that the effect of a cascade failure would be catastrophic [21:39:57] <Switeck> I'm more interested in solar "farms" for power on the ground. But getting the power from that to somewhere were it's used...difficult at this time. [21:40:17] <Switeck> we can't wait 20 years for much better ideas [21:40:32] <Switeck> unless we want 100's new coal plants [21:40:48] <fckgw> fossil fuels are still the best [21:40:53] <The_8472> no ty, i'd rather have 100 more fission plants (and i'm strongly opposed to fission) than coal plants [21:41:59] <Switeck> fusion isn't a beautiful answer either [21:42:12] <The_8472> it's a lot lot lot better than fission [21:42:14] <fckgw> clean coal [21:42:25] <Switeck> because the neutron emissions can create intense radioactivity [21:42:31] <The_8472> only short-term radioactive waste, almost infinite fuel supply... [21:42:54] <The_8472> yes, but they're engineering the materials to only produce short decay chains of the neutron-bombarded material [21:43:10] <Switeck> uranium shielding...fusion = instant breeder reactor XD [21:43:20] <The_8472> not to mention that fission reactors produce the same waste... in addition to the waste of the "burned" fission fuel [21:43:49] <The_8472> uhh... until you get some criticality accident from that uranium [21:43:54] <The_8472> fusion plants cannot go critical [21:43:54] <Switeck> heh [21:44:19] <Switeck> you can't get a criticality accident with many fission designs either [21:45:05] <Switeck> The uranium shielding has to be replaced regularly [21:45:08] <The_8472> designs yes... but not those which are in use [21:46:28] <Switeck> The specter of a fossil fuel disaster is one most have forgotten too [21:46:35] *** _rafi_ has quit IRC [21:46:44] <Switeck> but nuclear disasters...we'll still pay to see movies about that! [21:46:44] <The_8472> oil spills? [21:46:53] <Switeck> well, good point [21:46:57] <Switeck> that one is still remembered [21:47:10] <Switeck> but oil tank explosions? gas line leaks? [21:47:12] <The_8472> oh, and china is burning [21:47:23] <The_8472> or rather, their underground coal supplies are [21:47:50] <Switeck> I don't see how that can sustain [21:48:06] <The_8472> they have been for years [21:48:09] <Switeck> low oxygen environment, concentrations have to be high without breaks [21:48:20] <Switeck> water [21:48:56] <The_8472> the heat stays down there, thus the coal stays above ignition temperature even when it doesn't burn [21:49:01] <Switeck> It's how oil companies "milk" a low production well [21:49:06] <The_8472> and it'll slowly suck in air [21:49:29] <The_8472> it's a very slow process, but a constantly burning one [21:49:48] <The_8472> releasing all kinds of toxic gases through vents [21:50:23] <Switeck> and what was the trigger that causes that there but not in the US? [21:51:43] <The_8472> it happens in the US too, although on a lot smaller scale [21:52:02] <The_8472> the chinese coal layers are closer to the surface afaik [21:52:58] <DWKnight> westray mine disaster [21:53:01] <DWKnight> google keywords [21:53:42] <The_8472> i'm talking about coal mines burning for years [21:54:34] <DWKnight> that mine disaster happened less than 20 miles from where I live right now [21:54:43] <The_8472> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coal_seam_fire#China [21:56:36] <The_8472> a case in the US: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centralia,_Pennsylvania#Mine_fire [21:57:15] <The_8472> so, what was that about not happening in the US? [21:58:58] <Switeck> So it's a large scale problem in the USA as it supposedly is in China? [21:59:26] <Switeck> my contention wasn't that it didn't occur, but that it wasn't anywhere near the same scale [22:00:09] <The_8472> ah, ok [22:00:36] <K`Tetch> mine issues are a huge problem [22:00:42] <The_8472> but yes, it's worse in china. afaik due to lower safety standards in mines and because their coal is closer to the surface [22:00:50] <K`Tetch> not just coal as well, salt mines are often quite ecologically damaging [22:01:43] <The_8472> not to mention the mercury still used in gold mines... [22:01:48] <K`Tetch> btw - any client reps fancy joining up with me about some sort of open letter on this - http://voices.washingtonpost.com/securityfix/2009/11/bill_would_ban_p2p_on_federal.html [22:01:58] <K`Tetch> (trying to get things back on target/topic) [22:02:20] <uriel> oh, god, you people still talking about this? [22:02:35] <K`Tetch> we're sciency people, a topic change is good [22:02:54] <The_8472> sorry that we ONCE talk about more important things than bittorrent [22:03:07] <K`Tetch> we talk about bittorrent stuff all the time [22:03:17] <K`Tetch> a similar technological issue makes a nice change [22:03:31] <K`Tetch> especially one that (as a non-coder) I have a better chance of understanding and following [22:03:59] <Andrius> today's #bittorrent is fun [22:04:13] <The_8472> "A bill passed by the House Energy & Commerce Committee in September, called the Informed P2P User Act, would require P2P software makers to provide "clear and conspicuous" notice about files being shared by the programs, and get the user's consent before sharing them." [22:04:21] <The_8472> that shouldn't affect bittorrent, should it? [22:04:24] <Andrius> but it distracts me a lot from what I'm trying to do... [22:04:27] <The_8472> since nothing except what you download is shared [22:04:36] <Switeck> DHT :P [22:04:49] <The_8472> the DHT doesn't share anything [22:05:08] <Andrius> The_8472, don't copy sentences from my head please [22:05:21] <DWKnight> [5:04:32pm] <The_8472> since nothing except what you download is shared <-- we already fully disclose what is being shared [22:05:22] <The_8472> things that cause leaks via p2p are things that share entire folders... think emule, think kazaa [22:05:23] <Switeck> the network traffic could be an issue for a sysadmin wondering about it [22:05:44] <Switeck> I've read a couple strange RSS feed issues though [22:05:59] <Switeck> 10+ KB/sec downloads for many minutes with no apparent cause [22:06:05] *** chelz has joined #bittorrent [22:06:11] <K`Tetch> not what the bills about [22:06:22] <K`Tetch> but there seems to be a number of inconcistencies int he bill that need addressing [22:06:32] <Switeck> the bill sounds like it bans P2P outside of express in-advance permission for use [22:06:37] <K`Tetch> and I think a nice clear open letter could help deal with that, especially if client-makers got behind it [22:06:59] <The_8472> do you have a link to a draft? news reports on technical issues are often... faulty [22:08:33] <Switeck> wouldn't some P2P voice services fall loosely under the bill? :P [22:09:12] <The_8472> or windows shares! [22:09:35] <K`Tetch> opencongress.org should havea copy of the bil [22:10:38] <K`Tetch> ahem, last line of the article - "The full text of the new bill, H.R. 4098, is available here." [22:10:45] <The_8472> hah [22:14:44] <Andrius> article isn't bencoded, #bittorrent people can't read it :( [22:14:52] *** ajaya has quit IRC [22:15:47] <The_8472> well, the definition of p2p filesharing program is pretty broad and bittorrent would fall under point 3 A iii [22:16:17] <The_8472> well, assuming that they mean that you can search any files on those computers [22:16:23] <The_8472> not just explicitly shared ones [22:20:41] <The_8472> lawyer-code is annoying. it lacks rationales [22:22:19] <Nolar> the bill is mostly about inadvertantly sharing one's harddrive [22:22:43] <The_8472> if that's the purpose then the definitions might be too broad [22:23:01] <Nolar> like back in the days when limewire would automatically scan and share everything under c:\ [22:23:10] <Nolar> welcome to washington [22:23:54] <Nolar> i.e. some senator's records got leaked because some office employee ran a "p2p" app on a machine [22:24:13] <The_8472> i know, i heard about that [22:24:23] <Nolar> like the japanese winny(sp?) leaks [22:24:29] <The_8472> yes [22:24:42] <The_8472> but i mean there recently was an actual leak like that [22:24:51] <Nolar> yup [22:24:59] <Nolar> what triggered the latest mad rush afaik [22:25:13] *** KyleK__ has joined #bittorrent [22:25:53] <The_8472> hrrm, i think some famous politician here said that new laws should never be drafted urgently in face face of current events [22:26:19] <Switeck> that's the ONLY way they're drafted here :P [22:26:30] <Nolar> he must be a minority :) [22:29:12] <K`Tetch> there was the Marine1 link [22:29:19] <K`Tetch> thats the 'big' one that prompted things [22:29:28] <K`Tetch> oh, and the house ethics investigations [22:29:57] <Switeck> more dirty laundry gets aired that way, the quicker the laws get passed to prevent it [22:30:31] <The_8472> a miracle that wikileaks isn't outlawed yet [22:30:39] <K`Tetch> it was [22:30:40] <K`Tetch> remember [22:30:50] <The_8472> well, there was a court case, but it got reverted [22:31:02] <K`Tetch> http://freakbits.com/mpaa-targeted-wi-fi-back-up-1118 - YAY! [22:35:30] <The_8472> fascinating that this requires a special bill anyway. instad of letting the CIO of that agency define reasonable rules for said agency [22:35:45] <The_8472> i.e. the law should be more like "do what your IT admin tells you to do" [22:36:22] <The_8472> or... "do not publish confidential documents, in any way" [22:37:31] <The_8472> because what this bill excludes is video/audio conferencing p2p software [22:37:39] <The_8472> does remote administration and support sofware fall under that too? [22:37:49] <The_8472> because those can often copy files too [22:40:22] <K`Tetch> thing is, with agency CIO, there's no consistency, PLUS there's no criminal penalty, if you end up exposing someone elses criminal actions via p2p [22:40:46] *** KyleK_ has quit IRC [22:40:46] *** KyleK__ is now known as KyleK_ [22:42:56] <Switeck> should there be mandatory criminal penalty? [22:49:00] <The_8472> of course reducing the amount of information classified as confidential would also reduce the risk of such information leaking.. [22:49:49] <Switeck> that'd be like legalizing it to make less crime! :P [22:50:10] <chelz> the sane option is rarely taken [22:50:43] <chelz> Americans can always be counted on to do the right thing...after they have exhausted all other possibilities." -- Winston Churchill [22:54:53] *** _rafi2_ has quit IRC [22:55:06] *** _rafi_ has joined #bittorrent [22:56:52] *** _rafi_ has quit IRC [22:58:41] *** bittwist has quit IRC [23:07:38] *** ajaya has joined #bittorrent [23:35:07] *** bittwist has joined #bittorrent