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[00:25:39] <btipling> you know magnet urls are funny, there are different apps that can handle different types of magnet urls, like lime wire can't handle bittorent, and utorrent can't handle what limewire handles, but each app monopolizes magnet urls requests with browsers
[00:25:54] <btipling> so even though I have limewire and utorrent installed on one machine
[00:26:04] <btipling> one captures all of the magnet protocl requests
[00:26:10] <btipling> and doesn't pass them on
[00:26:23] <btipling> to an app that can handle them if it's a type it can't handle
[00:26:31] <Switeck> I discovered an interesting phenomena with uTorrent's handling of upload slots while seeding: the number of inactive peers that can be serviced in a reasonable timeframe does not decrease appreciably when I increased upload slots.
[00:27:01] <Switeck> If I had 1 upload slot, it could reach 5-10 total peers.
[00:27:31] <Switeck> but 10 upload slots with 30 total peers would leave typically 10+ peers "starved" for upload for 10+ minutes on end.
[00:29:16] <Switeck> btipling, limewire has Gnutella magnet links. If anything BitTorrent magnet links "stole" the file extension from Gnutella :P
[00:29:47] <btipling> heh
[00:29:48] <Switeck> you can probably copy and paste the magnet link into uTorrent
[00:32:52] <Switeck> On my upload slot discovery, it is because only really the optimistic unchoke upload slot "roams around" (unchoking random peers about every 30 seconds) that there is an effective upper limit on how many connections a seed or peer can manage.
[00:33:59] <Switeck> Almost no BitTorrent client seems to consider this in their recommended settings. :(
[00:36:26] <Switeck> In short, having more than ~10 total connections PER seeding torrent is overkill for almost all consumer internet connections (ADSL, cable, wireless, and even many fiber optic lines)
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[00:39:48] <Nolar> i aim for 10-20 KBs per upload
[00:40:32] <Switeck> I would be, but consumer internet still sucks too much :(
[00:40:47] <Switeck> 3-10 KB/sec average speed per upload slot while downloading
[00:40:55] <Switeck> higher while seeding, if possible
[00:41:37] <Switeck> It depends a little on the peer swarm you're in. A really crappy one, you want more upload slots to attract attention from more (but slow) peers.
[00:42:26] <Switeck> But my finding about upload slots isn't concerning speed directly but rather the total connections for the torrent and even (indirectly) global total connections.
[00:42:34] <The_8472> there is a magnet link handler on sourcforge
[00:42:51] <The_8472> you can register it with magnet links and it can then delegate to other applications, based on parameters
[00:43:08] <Nolar> in vuze i run with 100 upload slots
[00:43:18] <The_8472> you probably got 100Mbit ^^
[00:43:18] <Nolar> (i have the network to support that)
[00:43:49] <Switeck> What's the average upload speed per upload slot?
[00:43:58] <Switeck> at worst
[00:44:42] <Nolar> lemme check :)
[00:44:55] <The_8472> probably depends on the torrent
[00:45:19] <The_8472> though our upload unchoker drops slow peers in favor of faster ones when uploading
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[00:49:02] <Switeck> uTorrent will refuse to use upload slots if the upload speed is set low
[00:49:30] <Switeck> often using only 1, the optimistic unchoke upload slot...and thus spending a large fraction of the time not uploading on those torrents.
[00:50:44] <alus> btipling: yes, it's a terrible problem. the spec indicated some kind soul would write a magnet link dispatcher, but obviously no one will
[00:51:01] <alus> btipling: the right answer is probably btmagnet: and lwmagnet: and such
[00:51:01] <btipling> :/
[00:51:10] <btipling> that makes sense
[00:51:14] <alus> btipling: but who will move first? :/
[00:51:18] <btipling> as otherwise every app would have to handle
[00:51:30] <btipling> the different magnet protocols separately
[00:51:40] <btipling> for example in firefox you can only designate one application for a protocol
[00:51:55] <alus> the dream was also that one magnet could identify it for many networks, which is just nonses
[00:52:00] <alus> *nonsense
[00:53:31] <btipling> so a magnet link dispatcher
[00:53:40] <btipling> is a seprate app a user would have to download?
[00:53:47] <btipling> seperate*
[00:54:24] <alus> or something that one of the apps would install, yes
[00:58:48] <The_8472> <alus> btipling: yes, it's a terrible problem. the spec indicated some kind soul would write a magnet link dispatcher, but obviously no one will <- i thought there was on SF somewhere
[00:59:03] <DWKnight> I saw it, it's kinda half done
[00:59:09] <DWKnight> no way to really customize the dispatch
[00:59:10] <Nolar> Switeck uploads go from about 6 KBs on the low end to 200
[00:59:25] <Nolar> most tend towards 20-30
[01:00:29] <Switeck> calculated average?
[01:00:52] <Nolar> upspeed column :)
[01:01:06] <Nolar> oh
[01:01:13] <Nolar> you an average overall?
[01:01:21] <Nolar> dont have that
[01:01:25] <The_8472> global upload speed divided by upload slots
[01:01:28] <Switeck> your upload speed divided by active torrents, divided again by upload slots
[01:01:35] <Nolar> upload speed = 3-4 MBs
[01:01:52] <Switeck> I'll call that 4000 KB/sec to keep the math simple :)
[01:01:57] <Nolar> occasionally 5MB/s
[01:02:10] <DeHackEd> pfft... that's it?
[01:02:28] <Nolar> depends on what else my computer is doing at the time :)
[01:02:39] <DeHackEd> you don't have gigabit?
[01:03:21] <Nolar> only 100mbit here
[01:03:26] <DeHackEd> aw...
[01:03:33] <Nolar> our servers do gigabit seeding
[01:03:34] <Switeck> and even at 5 MB/sec, you're only getting about half that.
[01:03:58] <DeHackEd> that's acceptable then
[01:04:11] <Nolar> i've maxed out at 8-9 MB/s
[01:04:55] <Nolar> when i was testing the isp's 100mbit claim ;)
[01:05:35] <DeHackEd> we were testing a bandwidth throttling system by running bittorrent on the office LAN (100 megabits)... I was able to claim a bittorrent download as work. :)
[01:05:37] <DeHackEd> sadly it worked
[01:05:42] <Nolar> it's actually microwave ethernet, so it can go up to 1000mbit or so they claim
[01:05:56] <Nolar> heh
[01:07:03] <Switeck> BitTorrent speed limiters are more sensible than TCP regular networking LAN file copies...
[01:07:36] <DeHackEd> ... I'm having trouble making sense of that
[01:07:51] <Switeck> A regular file copy across a network using TCP
[01:08:04] <Switeck> doesn't have a speed limit, it tries to max out the connection
[01:08:30] <DeHackEd> I mean the internet uplink is 100 megabits and I got to try to max it out in, uhh, competition with a coworker.
[01:09:16] <Switeck> 1 torrent -- 100+ GB megaporn collection, done
[01:11:11] <DeHackEd> I grabbed a TAS I wanted to watch
[01:13:50] <Switeck> was/is there an upper limit on that connection's ability to handle connections at once? or half open connection rate limits?
[01:14:20] <DeHackEd> Still confused
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[01:14:37] <Switeck> networking switches often have limited memory
[01:14:48] <DeHackEd> switches don't care...
[01:14:52] <DeHackEd> you mean this rate limiting product?
[01:15:01] <Switeck> well, more complex managed switches might.
[01:16:42] <Switeck> even internet gateways/routers do
[01:17:21] <Switeck> it's probably theoretically something outrageous like 16 million connections, but something will likely crash/overload before then
[01:17:42] <Switeck> and real world number probably work out less than 500k
[01:18:03] <DeHackEd> yeah...  switches tend to be packet-and-forget. routers lock onto connections.
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[01:27:06] <DeHackEd> I need a real NIC though. USB gigabit only goes to 480 megabits.... well, strictly less really.
[01:31:38] <Switeck> even many onboard gbit/sec NICs are lucky to achieve 500 mbit/sec usable even with jumbo packets.
[01:32:27] <DeHackEd> no, I've pushed over 950 between two onboard NICs. even on desktop-grade motherboard...
[01:32:37] <Switeck> many <> yours XD
[01:33:33] <Switeck> It's the older ones that were really terrible
[01:34:07] <DeHackEd> well, this is a 3 year old nforce board... the other is pretty new.
[01:36:02] <Switeck> Tom's Hardware Page measured less than ~300 mbit/sec on some old crap Althon motherboard gigabit/sec NICs
[01:36:16] <Switeck> probably >5 years ago
[01:36:31] <DeHackEd> I hope it was crossover and jumbo frames though..
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[02:03:32] <The_8472> PCI ones are the problem
[02:03:43] <The_8472> since PCI itself is limited to 133MB/s
[02:03:46] <The_8472> shared...
[02:04:02] <The_8472> PCIe ones shouldn't have much of a problem
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[03:48:28] <TheSHAD0W> https://www.msu.edu/course/isb/202/ebertmay/images/boobies.jpg
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[03:51:15] <andar> The_8472: that was disappointing
[03:51:19] <andar> oops
[03:51:22] <andar> TheSHAD0W: ^
[03:52:24] <TheSHAD0W> http://www.sciencedaily.com/images/2008/02/080205191210-large.jpg - a pair of tits!
[03:52:54] <andar> : /
[03:53:45] <TheSHAD0W> http://www.expedition360.com/australia_lessons_science/camel_toes.jpg
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[10:23:00] <burris> http://www.xent.com/pipermail/fork/Week-of-Mon-20091109/054578.html
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[10:36:59] <kjetilho> burris: that was great :)
[10:39:38] <burris> it's much easier to bitch and moan about the current state of things than to do something about it
[10:40:42] <burris> hah, even bram is getting in on the action
[10:45:58] <burris> http://bramcohen.livejournal.com/71760.html
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[17:22:47] <SundanceKid> hello people, I develop new open source bt-tracker :) uTorrent says "tracker returned incorrect data: <NULL>"
[17:23:19] <Switeck> well did it? XD
[17:23:20] <SundanceKid> please help me. tracker url http://ya-tv.ru/phpfastcgid/BitTorrentTracker/announce
[17:23:44] <SundanceKid> source of the tracker: http://code.google.com/p/phpdaemon/source/browse/trunk/applications/BitTorrentTracker.php
[17:24:28] <The_8472> why does it return anything but an error when i don't even specify an infohash?
[17:26:21] <The_8472> well, at least the bencoding seems to be correct
[17:27:14] <SundanceKid> The_8472: thank you, I will fix it now.
[17:28:58] <The_8472> hrrm, no... i get an invalid reply on decoding it too, let's see...
[17:29:55] <The_8472> uhm, yeahh... 8:complete10:incomplete
[17:29:59] <The_8472> those are dictionary-keys
[17:30:01] <The_8472> where are the values?
[17:30:45] <The_8472> i suggest you look at the array/map representation of a working tracker
[17:31:59] <SundanceKid> thank you again! I'm fixing...
[17:36:05] <SundanceKid> The_8472: fixed :) error message - http://ya-tv.ru/phpfastcgid/BitTorrentTracker/announce?no_info_hash_here
[17:36:24] <SundanceKid> ...trackeridi1e8:completei1e10:incompletei0e5:peer...
[17:37:01] <The_8472> now do what i said. do an announce to a working tracker, look at the data structure. then look at yours
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[17:39:21] <SundanceKid> The_8472: I shall do it now. Please tell me a link to any anonymous tracker
[17:40:18] <SundanceKid> The_8472: I use only non-anonymous... it's harder to sniff uTorrent's traffic :)
[17:40:36] <The_8472> huh?
[17:41:00] <SundanceKid> what?
[17:41:11] <The_8472> "it's harder to sniff uTorrent's traffic"
[17:41:15] <The_8472> sense, it does not make any
[17:43:34] <SundanceKid> I mean that I can't send any request to non-anonymous trackers, I need the hash and many other parameters.
[17:45:18] <The_8472> http://justfuckinggoogleit.com/search.pl?q=public bittorrent tracker
[17:46:51] <SundanceKid> thank you, I searched "anonymous" :)))
[17:47:08] <The_8472> they aren't, lol
[17:47:13] <The_8472> everyone sees your IP
[17:47:18] <The_8472> how would that possibly be anonymous
[17:48:07] <SundanceKid> :)) I know
[17:48:24] <SundanceKid> anonymous = without registration
[17:49:00] <SundanceKid>  "anonymous" is wrong but "public" is right
[17:55:29] <SundanceKid> The_8472: d8:completei1e10:downloadedi0e10:incompletei1e8:intervali1652e12:min intervali826e5:peers12:
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[17:55:58] <SundanceKid> The_8472: torrentbox returned this :) all is similar...
[17:56:10] <SundanceKid> The_8472: except spaces, I'm fixing...
[17:56:34] <The_8472> the peers part matters most
[17:57:34] <The_8472> btw, there are plenty of php trackers out there
[17:58:39] <SundanceKid> you're right :) **it happened in my 'peers' field:)
[17:59:52] <SundanceKid> The_8472: BTW, this tracker's backend is fully scalable very easy to cloud-level cluster :) and fully asynchronous (1 worker process could handle concurrent queries)
[18:00:04] <The_8472> in php?
[18:00:05] <TheSHAD0W> http://www.xent.com/pipermail/fork/Week-of-Mon-20091109/054578.html -- "Somebody do something about this, before I LOSE MY FUCKING MIND!?!?!
[18:00:16] <TheSHAD0W> Maybe he should do something about it himself?
[18:00:20] <SundanceKid> The_8472: yes. using libevent :)
[18:00:44] <The_8472> how about just using... opentracker?
[18:00:52] <The_8472> if you want scaleability
[18:01:07] <SundanceKid> MySQL sucks
[18:01:15] <The_8472> opentracker doesn't use mysql
[18:01:21] <The_8472> it keeps everything in memory
[18:01:33] <SundanceKid> OpenTracker is a simplistic, lightweight, standards-compliant BitTorrent peer tracker. It is written in PHP and requires only a single MySQL table to function. It does not create or use files on disk, nor is it a continuously executing process, making it ideal for virtual web hosts.
[18:01:54] <The_8472> "opentracker is a open and free bittorrent tracker project. It aims for minimal resource usage and is intended to run at your wlan router. Currently it is deployed as an open and free tracker instance. Read our free and open tracker blog and announce your torrents there (but do not hesitate to setup your own free trackers!)."
[18:01:57] <Switeck> TheSHAD0W, that link times out for me
[18:01:59] <The_8472> http://erdgeist.org/arts/software/opentracker/
[18:02:14] <TheSHAD0W> Took me a while to get it to connect.
[18:02:17] <The_8472> also, opentracker is written in C, not php
[18:02:38] <SundanceKid> =)
[18:05:16] <SundanceKid> thank you for the link, but scalability of this tracker sucks
[18:05:23] <The_8472> no, it doesn't
[18:05:30] <The_8472> it powers the biggest trackers on the planet
[18:06:09] <SundanceKid> I think that scalability of the biggest trackers is ugly...
[18:06:31] <SundanceKid> and fail-over too
[18:06:37] <The_8472> it's actually so efficient that it only causes ~5% of userspace load. most of the load is kernel space... for TCP socket handling
[18:06:54] <The_8472> loadbalancing can be done via DNS
[18:06:59] <SundanceKid> what happens when machine goes down?
[18:07:10] <The_8472> DNS + heartbeat...
[18:07:30] <The_8472> or just use a load balancer in front of the machines
[18:07:57] <The_8472> multiple opentracker instances can share their state
[18:08:31] <The_8472> but i think that's mentioned on the site somewhere too
[18:08:59] <SundanceKid> so copy of a database is on each server?
[18:09:05] <SundanceKid> master-master replication?
[18:09:22] <The_8472> there is no database. it's all in-memory and they can synchronize with each other
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[18:09:38] <SundanceKid> I mean database in memory :)
[18:09:48] <The_8472> well, then yes
[18:11:00] <SundanceKid> so we can't hold more peers than capacity of the memory of one machine.
[18:11:16] <The_8472> peer information is very compact
[18:11:49] <The_8472> it's a non-issue, really
[18:12:04] <SundanceKid> and all of queries runs over whole database, not over a part.
[18:12:04] <The_8472> and i think they're walking over the array
[18:12:09] <The_8472> so most of it could be swapped
[18:13:19] <SundanceKid> I may be applicable with primitive queries, but my tracker aims to smart peer to peer association.
[18:13:25] <SundanceKid> *It may be
[18:13:45] <The_8472> "aims to smart peer to peer association" and what would that do?
[18:14:57] <SundanceKid> many things. superseed on the server side, computing the peers with best interconnect ability.
[18:15:11] <SundanceKid> excuse me for my poor English
[18:15:35] <The_8472> that is an exercise in futility
[18:15:44] <The_8472> first of all... there's PEX
[18:16:06] <SundanceKid> PEX?
[18:16:19] <The_8472> peer exchange
[18:16:30] <SundanceKid> DHT?
[18:16:40] <The_8472> a related but different feature
[18:16:45] <The_8472> but yes, DHT will also make it futile
[18:17:55] <The_8472> a tracker only has to do 2 things: try avoiding to hand out the same subset of peers every time
[18:17:56] <SundanceKid> and it aims to make possible the connection between two clients without external IPs if they use one ISP
[18:18:04] <The_8472> and avoid handing out seeds to other seeds
[18:18:18] <The_8472> that - again - is rather pointless
[18:18:32] <The_8472> due to what we call the sweden effect
[18:20:05] <SundanceKid> hrm... isn't interconnection between local clients useful?
[18:21:07] <SundanceKid> for example I've no external IP and many other clients of my ISP haven't it too.
[18:21:44] <The_8472> then the tracker obviously can't help you either, because it can't give other peers your internal IP
[18:22:00] <SundanceKid> I can :)
[18:22:09] <Switeck> handing out entirely firewalled peers/seeds probably wouldn't do much good either :P
[18:23:26] <SundanceKid> tracker can determine that two clients use the only ISP and send local IP instead of external.
[18:23:39] <The_8472> except it won't know about their local IP
[18:23:43] <Switeck> but the tracker may not know if a peer/seed is firewalled.
[18:24:15] <The_8472> the tracker only sees the public IP as source address
[18:24:32] <Switeck> what if they were all on the same LAN?
[18:24:45] 
[18:25:02] <The_8472> nobody sends it
[18:25:20] <SundanceKid> user can set it.
[18:25:23] <The_8472> <Switeck> what if they were all on the same LAN? <- that's what multicast based lan peer discovery services are good for
[18:25:49] <The_8472> SundanceKid, they don't
[18:25:50] <Switeck> some ISPs use 10.x.x.x for (parts of) their internal transparent network
[18:26:06] <Switeck> but they BLOCK multicast at points
[18:26:11] <The_8472> well, if you want to bittorrent you should get a different ISP then
[18:26:27] <The_8472> or wait for IPv6
[18:27:37] 
[18:27:55] <The_8472> SundanceKid, except that nobody ever reads a tracker page
[18:28:11] <The_8472> you download the torrent at an indexing site or wherever and never ever see the tracker page
[18:28:15] <Switeck> IMO a firewalled tracker is useless
[18:29:17] 
[18:30:00] 
[18:30:13] <SundanceKid> am I wrong?
[18:30:19] <Switeck> a tracker with a regularly changing ip would also require a no-ip URL service (or something similar)
[18:30:31] <The_8472> what is retracker?
[18:32:40] <SundanceKid> The_8472: retracker is a tracker for local network or Internet Exchange
[18:33:31] <The_8472> pretty useless if nobody is going to use it
[18:33:36] 
[18:33:56] 
[18:34:09] <The_8472> still, never seen it on a torrent
[18:34:34] <SundanceKid> ISP can override this addr to the local public tracker
[18:34:47] <The_8472> huh?
[18:34:55] <SundanceKid> what? :)
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[18:35:14] <The_8472> override what?
[18:35:28] 
[18:35:49] <The_8472> yes, but that won't achieve anything. i've never seen that tracker url in any torrent
[18:36:01] <The_8472> thus clients won't use it
[18:39:27] 
[18:39:34] <SundanceKid> I told it sucks :)
[18:39:55] <SundanceKid> way of one tracker is better
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[18:50:31] <SundanceKid> The_8472: thank you very much, it works
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[20:27:53] <dadada> hello folks
[20:28:00] <SundanceKid> hi
[20:28:03] <dadada> I'm providing a torrent for the first
[20:28:11] <dadada> time and I'm not sure if I'm doing it right
[20:28:16] <dadada> I added 3 open trackers
[20:28:28] <dadada> the file seems to be ok and I uploaded the torrent file to mininova
[20:28:44] <dadada> now, I'd expect that the trackers download the file from me
[20:28:51] <dadada> but there's nothing happening
[20:28:57] <SundanceKid> why?
[20:29:08] <The_8472> you're expecting wrong
[20:29:12] <SundanceKid> trackers should not download the file from you
[20:29:13] <dadada> k
[20:29:21] <dadada> I see
[20:29:55] <The_8472> if there is a user who wants your torrent, then they will download from you
[20:30:03] <dadada> yeah
[20:30:06] <The_8472> the users i mean
[20:30:22] <dadada> I just thought there'd be ways to increase bandwith through specialized servers
[20:30:47] <dadada> I mean when I turn my computer off nobody can download ^^
[20:30:54] <The_8472> well, such services do exist. but they're not part of bittorrent per se
[20:31:05] <dadada> and are they free?
[20:31:52] <dadada> on mininova I can see that some people downloaded the torrent file
[20:32:01] <dadada> but nobody started to donwload from me yet...
[20:32:11] <dadada> how do I know if something went wrong
[20:32:16] <dadada> there is no error message
[20:32:35] <dadada> the state on my torrent client is marked as "uploading"
[20:32:37] <dadada> so that looks ok
[20:34:50] <The_8472> well, you should be reachable too
[20:35:39] <dadada> I can upload and download in other torrents?
[20:35:42] <dadada> is that sufficient?
[20:35:53] <The_8472> not necessarily, no
[20:36:13] <The_8472> your client might have some reachability/NAT/firewall indicator. it should be green
[20:38:33] <dadada> I don't see it
[20:39:09] <dadada> can I try to download the torrent myself to see if it works?
[20:39:40] <The_8472> not really, no, someone else would have to test it
[20:40:20] <dadada> maybe I can test it in a virtual machine?
[20:40:38] <The_8472> nono, the point is to have someone outside your local lan test it
[20:40:46] <dadada> I see
[20:40:52] <dadada> thanks
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